WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.080 --> 00:00:06.599 All right, what's up everyone. 2 00:00:06.679 --> 00:00:10.199 Welcome to another episode of Adventures in dev Ops. 3 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:11.960 Warren, Welcome, good to see you again. 4 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:15.880 Thank you for inviting me back. Will Uh, it's been great. 5 00:00:17.039 --> 00:00:17.640 It's interesting. 6 00:00:17.679 --> 00:00:21.039 I was looking for interesting facts for this particular episode, 7 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:24.800 and I came across one by a writer that has 8 00:00:24.839 --> 00:00:28.640 been has gone viral on Twitter and other places. And 9 00:00:28.679 --> 00:00:33.119 she's her name, Yoanna Machayevski Sta and she says, I 10 00:00:33.200 --> 00:00:35.399 want AI do my laundry and dishes so that I 11 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:37.880 can do art and writing, not for AI to do 12 00:00:37.960 --> 00:00:40.159 my art and writing so that I can do my 13 00:00:40.359 --> 00:00:45.000 laundry and all right, And if you search that on Google, 14 00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:47.640 actually you'll find no less than ten guys who have 15 00:00:47.960 --> 00:00:51.320 co opted her words and are claiming them as their own, uh, 16 00:00:51.600 --> 00:00:54.240 spreading the viralness out there. But I think it's very 17 00:00:54.280 --> 00:00:56.560 interesting because it's also the direction that we've been going, 18 00:00:56.560 --> 00:00:58.920 and I think it's relevant to today's episode. 19 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:03.399 Yeah, for sure, because joining us today in the studio, 20 00:01:04.280 --> 00:01:09.359 Anthony SPITERI, we've had your longtime friend and co worker 21 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:12.799 Michael Kaide from Van on the show just a couple 22 00:01:12.840 --> 00:01:16.319 of episodes ago, so this will be fun. Anthony, thank 23 00:01:16.359 --> 00:01:18.159 you for joining us and welcome. 24 00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:20.159 Thanks Will, thanks Bar and glad to be here. Yeah, 25 00:01:20.200 --> 00:01:23.599 it's a big choice to feel literally following him up 26 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:27.400 a big man in more wives than one. 27 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:31.640 He was He looked only like three or four inches 28 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:33.560 tall on my screen, so I don't really have a 29 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:34.519 sense of scale. 30 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:40.280 Yeah, that's why you have to carry him some random 31 00:01:40.280 --> 00:01:42.719 city around the world because of certain you know, certain 32 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:44.280 things going on site. 33 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:47.239 Then you realize this happy the man. He is right. 34 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:52.799 It's not education that's the great equalizer, it's remote video calls. 35 00:01:54.200 --> 00:01:54.439 Cool. 36 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:56.000 Yeah, so we were going to talk a little bit 37 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:58.280 and this is this is gonna be a fun episode 38 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:02.319 because AI is pre controversial. I feel like everyone's falling 39 00:02:02.439 --> 00:02:06.439 into one of two camps. Either you know, it's going 40 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:11.280 to do everything for me, or it's the reincarnation of 41 00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:13.759 the evil Overlord and it's the worst thing to happen 42 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:16.360 to humanity. And I think there's very few people that 43 00:02:16.639 --> 00:02:20.159 are in between those camps, at least very few people 44 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:24.360 who are vocalizing what their actual opinion is, which is 45 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:27.599 probably the case with a lot of things. But I 46 00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:31.039 think it's cool. So you've been working on quite a 47 00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:38.680 bit of stuff of integrating AI through like conversational prompt engineering. 48 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:43.400 Right, absolutely, yeah, I mean it's it's a fascinating field. 49 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:45.759 Like I think there's there's certain elements of hype to 50 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:48.039 it with that question, like we know that it's been 51 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:52.120 hyped up, but I think about you know, just post pandemic, 52 00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:55.879 we had the crypto blockchain defile hype which was so. 53 00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.000 Huge from the time, and people are. 54 00:02:57.840 --> 00:02:59.759 Like, yep, that's the thing, this is the future, and 55 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:03.000 you know, while that's still you know, they're thereabouts, it's 56 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:05.479 it's kind of dropped off in terms of its actual 57 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:09.080 applic applicability to the world. But then I think this 58 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:11.319 came in and just went here we go like this 59 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:14.159 is this is here, it's coming big, it's coming strong. 60 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:16.680 Open AI did wonders with chat GBT. All of a 61 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:19.599 sudden it was like, what's chat GBT on Twitter? And 62 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:21.400 or it was X was without the time that X 63 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:23.960 was being bought if I remember correctly by by Elon. 64 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:26.000 And then yeah, then all of a sudden, we've got 65 00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:29.039 this amazing interface that does amazing stuff and the first 66 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:31.000 thing that I told it to do was to build 67 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:32.919 a script for me. But that's I think, and I 68 00:03:32.919 --> 00:03:35.280 think a lot of people in it. You know, they 69 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:38.319 didn't ask it any specific questions or anything. They said, 70 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:40.199 can you do this? Can you build me a script? 71 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:41.960 And I think so. I think a lot of us 72 00:03:42.000 --> 00:03:44.960 in the technical world were in that, you know, devopy 73 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:47.680 sort of world or coding or even infrastructure. 74 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:50.360 This is the application they saw straight away for it. 75 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:52.599 Yeah, for sure. 76 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:55.719 I think my initial use of it is I just 77 00:03:55.840 --> 00:03:58.439 asked it bad questions, you know, because I didn't really 78 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:00.879 see any value of it. And then I think it 79 00:04:00.960 --> 00:04:03.680 might have been actually one of your tweets that I 80 00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:06.639 saw where you did like a conversational example, and I 81 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:09.039 was like, oh damn, I never thought of doing that. 82 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:11.520 And so now a lot of my interaction. 83 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.960 With it is it's replacing my Google Search because you know, 84 00:04:16.519 --> 00:04:20.079 like in my job, I switch between terrorform and antseble 85 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:24.040 and GCP and AWS and just the context switching is huge. 86 00:04:24.560 --> 00:04:26.639 And so when I try to remember, like, oh, I 87 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:28.120 know I need to do this, but I don't remember 88 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:31.279 the exact syntax, I've found myself in the habit of 89 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:36.160 asking chat GPT exactly how to do it, and it's like, oh, yeah. 90 00:04:35.959 --> 00:04:36.600 I just do this. 91 00:04:37.399 --> 00:04:39.519 Yeah, it's definitely and this is part of the you 92 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:41.759 know you talked about Lovey Eye, that the trust and 93 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:44.199 whatever it is, but I think a lot of people 94 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:46.439 have defaulted to it and don't use Google, which is 95 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:49.439 why I was saying Google go pretty damn hard with 96 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:52.240 the Gemini relaunched a couple of weeks ago, right like 97 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:54.160 that was that was an interesting tip for that luck 98 00:04:55.360 --> 00:04:57.519 We're going to launch Gemini, then Open Eye off coming 99 00:04:57.560 --> 00:04:59.639 on the Monday and doing their thing. And yet I 100 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:02.399 really that the four oh and it was an interesting week, 101 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:04.720 and then Microsoft came and did its thing, and again 102 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:05.959 then Apple's done it yesterday. 103 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.839 But I think that's the interesting. 104 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.160 Part of it is that it has replaced Google in 105 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:14.639 terms of that search capability because we inherently trust it, 106 00:05:14.839 --> 00:05:16.800 though should we I think that's the big thing and 107 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:18.639 what we get out of there. I think people just 108 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:21.959 trust from the start, but maybe we shouldn't. But I think, 109 00:05:22.399 --> 00:05:24.279 you know, you've done enough, I've done enough in there 110 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:27.160 to probably trust it to a certain extent. You don't 111 00:05:27.160 --> 00:05:29.040 have to double check things for sure, like it's not. 112 00:05:29.160 --> 00:05:31.240 But then again, we were at the same place with 113 00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:34.319 search before. I mean even Wikipedia, people were saying about Wikipedia, 114 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:37.560 don't trust Wikipedia. You I remember at UNI never use 115 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:40.879 Wikipedia as a citation. We could be wrong, So it's 116 00:05:40.879 --> 00:05:42.439 still it's the same sort of stuff. We're just we're 117 00:05:42.439 --> 00:05:43.399 just going over it again. 118 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:44.800 Yeah, for sure. 119 00:05:44.920 --> 00:05:49.600 And you know, like the thing a few years ago 120 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:52.319 was copy and piaste the answer out of stack overflow, 121 00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:54.959 and there was there was actually a running joke like, 122 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:57.480 you know, can we build a vs code plug in 123 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.560 that just copies the right answer from stack go overflow 124 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:03.480 and adds it to my editor And I think, to 125 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.160 a yeah, I think to a large extent chat GPT 126 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:07.519 is is that plug again? 127 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:09.600 Plugging for sure exists. 128 00:06:10.160 --> 00:06:11.839 You know, I think you two may have been way 129 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.680 more ahead of me and interacting with UGBT than I was. 130 00:06:15.720 --> 00:06:18.160 I was like, I don't know if I saw the benefit. 131 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:21.120 Initially, I was like, you know, the code isn't going 132 00:06:21.160 --> 00:06:23.480 to be perfect, there's going to be issues there. 133 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:24.920 And now since. 134 00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:26.879 I've started using it, I definitely are more on the 135 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:29.600 side of I see the long winded answers and I'm like, 136 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:32.600 can I get back to just the one word or 137 00:06:31.800 --> 00:06:35.639 one please? Because like otherwise I have to I feel 138 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:37.800 like I have to spend like half an hour training 139 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:40.199 it on how what the system prompt should be so 140 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:42.759 that it just gives me the direct answer that I want. 141 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.000 Yeah, and that's kind of that's the power of that 142 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:48.360 prompt engineering. So I've been I think I've been big 143 00:06:48.399 --> 00:06:50.720 on this in terms of written a the articles on it, 144 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:53.560 especially this year since I've been you know, using it 145 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:55.480 for the past ten months. 146 00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:56.439 Was sorry to do that. 147 00:06:57.240 --> 00:06:59.240 You've got to kind of learn how to manipulate it 148 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:01.360 in the right way and sort of train it to 149 00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:05.040 say the right things, and don't don't be afraid getting 150 00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:07.360 angry at it as well, and just like I really 151 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:10.319 treat it like a human, Like I actually get frustrated 152 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:12.439 with the thing, and I'll swear at it, and I'll 153 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:14.920 call it its whole and I'm not sure if I 154 00:07:14.920 --> 00:07:17.120 can swear in the show, but you know, like I'll 155 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:19.920 I'll just call it every name under the sun, right, 156 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:22.839 And it's kind of it doesn't Sometimes it blinks a 157 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:24.560 little bit and goes, hey, sorry, you know, I was 158 00:07:24.600 --> 00:07:25.079 just trying. 159 00:07:24.920 --> 00:07:25.519 To do my job. 160 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:30.439 The more that you interact with it and the more 161 00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:32.800 that you treat it like you are to maybe talking 162 00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:36.000 to a dev team. Actually, I don't know whether that's 163 00:07:36.040 --> 00:07:38.560 even O favor, because if you talk to someone like that. 164 00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:40.560 Right. 165 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:42.600 Anyway, what I'm trying to say is you talk to 166 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:44.800 it like a human. You learn how to work and 167 00:07:44.839 --> 00:07:47.399 manipulate it and co erse it, and you get the 168 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:48.839 best out of it once you learn how to deal 169 00:07:48.879 --> 00:07:50.920 with it. And I think that's the same for any 170 00:07:50.959 --> 00:07:53.720 sort of platform or large language model. It's out there 171 00:07:53.800 --> 00:07:55.639 that we are interacting with these days. 172 00:07:56.079 --> 00:07:58.199 So I think, sorry, I'm going to jump in here 173 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:02.759 real quick, Warren, because I think there's a takeaway here, Anthony. 174 00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:06.800 You are our agent zero. 175 00:08:07.079 --> 00:08:11.959 So when when chat, GPT or any AI platform becomes 176 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:16.639 sentient and actually has real world capabilities, I suspect you're 177 00:08:16.680 --> 00:08:18.800 going to be the first person they take out because 178 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.519 you were just such an asshole to it. Yeah, we 179 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:25.519 need to follow you on X because when you stop tweeting, 180 00:08:25.680 --> 00:08:27.519 we know things have changed. 181 00:08:28.040 --> 00:08:33.039 Oh it just respects me that much. Thinking in command 182 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:34.440 that maybe that's my strategy. 183 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:38.639 It's for sure Roco's best left, right. You know you 184 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:43.320 should be helping it come to power otherwise a problematic 185 00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:44.039 future there. 186 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:46.519 Absolutely, so you did. 187 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:51.399 You were telling us before we started recording, which sometimes 188 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:53.480 I feel bad because like sometimes the best parts of 189 00:08:53.480 --> 00:08:57.639 this podcast happened before I hit the record button, but 190 00:08:58.639 --> 00:08:59.840 I'll try to circle it back in. 191 00:09:00.639 --> 00:09:01.639 You were telling us about. 192 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:07.039 An app that you built and used some AA platforms 193 00:09:07.120 --> 00:09:11.639 as the data source for that, right, just to sort 194 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:13.519 of like your own self learning journey on how to 195 00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:14.600 how to best utilize this. 196 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:17.799 Yeah, it's interesting, right because I think, I mean a 197 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.840 lot of us have got ideas about you know, just apps, 198 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:25.519 and we walk through life as technical people and often 199 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:29.519 wonder can we solve a problem. But I think, like 200 00:09:29.600 --> 00:09:31.600 I told you then I'll tell you again like I'm 201 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:33.759 a hacker at best, and I think you put it 202 00:09:33.799 --> 00:09:35.519 really well. Will when you see if you give give 203 00:09:35.519 --> 00:09:38.639 me a blank vs. Code window, I can't do anything 204 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:41.679 like I've always been even when I did. 205 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:43.200 I did computer. 206 00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:46.879 Science at UNI, failed it miserably, got expelled from university 207 00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:50.799 for me, But I've always been able to read code 208 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:53.799 and understand code. When I was back working as a 209 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:57.200 service provider and hosting where I was hosting websites, I 210 00:09:57.240 --> 00:09:59.320 worked with a lot of developers. A lot of them 211 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.919 are really bad and they produced really bad code. And 212 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:04.600 you've got to think back then, it was asp, asp net, 213 00:10:04.840 --> 00:10:08.320 the original dot, it was it was Perl, it was PHP, 214 00:10:08.480 --> 00:10:11.039 it was all that. So I learned how to actually, 215 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:13.120 you know, read code pretty well and understand what it 216 00:10:13.120 --> 00:10:14.759 was doing and try and trace it back and if 217 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:16.759 there was a memorily go back and tell them. So 218 00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:20.000 I've always been good around the hacking of code, but 219 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:23.360 never as a as a creator of original code, if 220 00:10:23.399 --> 00:10:26.039 you know what I mean. So to that end, but 221 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:28.399 I was used to I could, I could build a website, 222 00:10:28.399 --> 00:10:29.159 I could do this as that. 223 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:30.360 So I've always had that in me. 224 00:10:31.159 --> 00:10:33.399 But then this particular idea that I had, I've got 225 00:10:33.399 --> 00:10:36.679 a it's very fun, it's very weird. But I was 226 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:39.120 actually on Michael's ninety Days of DevOps this year talking 227 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:45.399 about this actually. So basically it's an app that it's 228 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:49.080 a location based services app built with Google location based 229 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:51.840 APIs and geo geo searching and all that kind of 230 00:10:51.840 --> 00:10:52.679 cool stuff and. 231 00:10:53.000 --> 00:10:54.480 Place places and all that. 232 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:57.279 All those cool APIs at Google has to find and 233 00:10:57.320 --> 00:10:59.320 locate places that offer black pudding. 234 00:11:00.360 --> 00:11:02.159 I'm not do you guys know what black pudding is? 235 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:06.000 I do, but tell us make sure all our listeners know, 236 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:08.840 because this is not something to gloss over. 237 00:11:09.480 --> 00:11:13.559 Yeah, black putting is basically it originated or in Europe. 238 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:18.360 Basically it's basically a sausage or a sort of role 239 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:23.360 that is effectively made with pigs blood as the main ingredient, 240 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:27.279 but then other bits of sewet and spices and whatnot, 241 00:11:27.320 --> 00:11:31.159 and it's a delicacy in the UK made in different ways. 242 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:33.919 It's typically had for breakfast as part of a full 243 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.559 English or full Irish, full Scottish, but then in places 244 00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:40.240 like Germany and other parts of Central Europe it's basically 245 00:11:40.360 --> 00:11:44.360 blood sausage, and in Argentina and in Spain it's like 246 00:11:44.399 --> 00:11:48.159 called morcilla. So effectively, I've always loved it. I fell 247 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:49.879 in love with it. It was hard to get and 248 00:11:49.919 --> 00:11:52.240 I was sitting at a cafe one day here in Perth, 249 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:54.279 where we don't get it everywhere. 250 00:11:54.320 --> 00:11:56.440 I was thinking, man, I really want to go find 251 00:11:56.480 --> 00:11:57.159 a cafe that. 252 00:11:57.120 --> 00:12:00.399 Has black pointing. So that was the idea for the app, right, 253 00:12:02.799 --> 00:12:04.600 And that's I. 254 00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:08.399 Feel like, you know, because I'm I'm obviously from the US, 255 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.000 but I feel like that is such a British thing 256 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:14.720 to do, like to travel the world and be like 257 00:12:14.759 --> 00:12:17.039 where can I get black pudding here? 258 00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:20.399 Yeah? And I'm not even British Australia, so that's even weird. 259 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:21.200 In itself, right. 260 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:23.919 But actually, actually last week I was in Fort Lauderdale 261 00:12:23.960 --> 00:12:28.720 and I found a place like twenty minutes from the hotel. 262 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:28.279 So you know that. 263 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:33.000 But going back to the sort of devothy prompt engineering. 264 00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:36.279 Part of this is that I had this idea and 265 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:40.759 because I know how to, I know how to construct. 266 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:42.200 I know what makes up at an application. 267 00:12:42.360 --> 00:12:44.840 Right, there's there's a front end, there's a back end, 268 00:12:45.240 --> 00:12:49.559 there's UI, there's database, there's APIs. I know how to, 269 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:52.559 I know what makes it up. I was basically able 270 00:12:52.679 --> 00:12:55.960 to prompt engm my way to a bit of an MVP. 271 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:59.039 It was about August last year. I was kind of there, 272 00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:02.000 just kind of hacking away after ours, spending lots of 273 00:13:02.000 --> 00:13:04.679 time on chat GBT. It will give me some code 274 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.440 I put into vstudio. I'd load it up with that work. No, 275 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.200 let's refactor it. Let's go in, let's refine. So basically 276 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:15.519 months of doing that. In fact the GitHub commit I've 277 00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:17.799 got it as a private repositi for and get hubs 278 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:20.639 still because obviously I haven't got it's not a public 279 00:13:20.720 --> 00:13:23.960 sort of project. But I've done about seven or eight 280 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:27.480 hundred commits over the past sort of you know, I've 281 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:30.559 stopped recently but over six months, right, so there was 282 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:32.039 a lot of commits that I was going in a 283 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:35.039 lot of iteration, but that's how it grew. I was like, okay, 284 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:37.360 let's start strong. Can we use a Google API to 285 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.639 build a map, and then can I prompt chat GBT 286 00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:43.320 to now build me in a HTML interface that will 287 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:45.559 actually view that map? And then can we build a 288 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:49.080 flask application to render some APIs that call that, and 289 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:51.759 then can we browd some JavaScript which will work out 290 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:53.519 the mats to be able to work out the location 291 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.840 between two points. So all that I was able to 292 00:13:56.919 --> 00:13:59.519 articulate into chat GBT and at the end of the 293 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:04.000 day got something that, surprise, surprise, worked And I never 294 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:06.840 forget the first actual time where I saw the map 295 00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:10.279 pop up with the location, and that was like amazing 296 00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.159 to me that I was able to effectively prompt my 297 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:17.639 way without really understanding, you know, being a creator coder 298 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:20.480 and get something working, And that to me blew me away, 299 00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:25.200 because I think shows the absolute possibilities that these large 300 00:14:25.279 --> 00:14:27.639 language models offer the world, right. 301 00:14:29.320 --> 00:14:29.720 For sure. 302 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:31.960 And I think one of the cool things about that 303 00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:34.360 is the fact that you emphasized multiple times that it 304 00:14:34.440 --> 00:14:37.919 was prompt engineering, So you're just having like a conversation 305 00:14:38.960 --> 00:14:43.200 with the AI tool, and then it's like whenever you 306 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:49.000 ask it something. Then your follow up questions, do you 307 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:52.000 just like continue as if you were speaking with a 308 00:14:52.039 --> 00:14:54.720 normal human or do you try to reference something back 309 00:14:54.759 --> 00:14:58.080 in the conversation earlier so that it knows what you're 310 00:14:58.120 --> 00:14:58.720 referring to. 311 00:14:59.519 --> 00:14:59.759 Yeah. 312 00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:03.600 Absolutely, the first sort of iterations, this was chat GBT 313 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:06.200 three five to start with them, got in before. 314 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:08.240 It was very frustrating. 315 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:11.039 At times, it wasn't very good at you have to 316 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:13.080 you have to kind of refeed at the code at times, 317 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.200 like here's a there's a snippet of code, like there's 318 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.679 something's going wrong, here's the code again, and then it 319 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.279 would suggest the changes, and then then I would go, okay, 320 00:15:23.159 --> 00:15:27.799 modify that in full and without brevity into this latest 321 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:29.919 code base, because if you didn't do that, it would 322 00:15:29.919 --> 00:15:33.320 basically give you like placeholders and kind of dot dot 323 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.559 dots and that sort of thing. And obviously when you're 324 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:38.600 cutting and pasting between here and you know, in visual studio, 325 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:42.399 because there are some plug ins, it goes straight into 326 00:15:42.480 --> 00:15:44.840 visual studio, which might have been easier, but I liked 327 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:47.679 chat GBT and it was working well, but that was 328 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:50.720 kind of the frustration having to kind of refeed at information. 329 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:53.519 Sometimes would get things really wrong, so you have to 330 00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:55.759 go through five or ten iterations of it before it 331 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:58.080 became right, and then you ran out of your your 332 00:15:58.120 --> 00:16:01.919 chat GBT hourly sort of prompts. And that would be 333 00:16:01.919 --> 00:16:04.279 a great natural sort of place to stop. Because I 334 00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.159 found myself working until one two o'clock in the morning. 335 00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.840 It's addicted to this, right, But back in the days 336 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:12.240 where chat GBT was still limited, that was good because 337 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:14.080 I was like, right, you hit your PROMP limit. You 338 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:17.120 can't do anything for two hours. Probably I should stop now. 339 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:21.159 And you know, that was a good natural break. I'll 340 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:24.080 go to sleep and I'll come back. But it was frustrating, right, 341 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:26.320 but you had to be patient to be able to, 342 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:30.279 you know, get the code refined over time and to 343 00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.759 the point where you're working with the LM to make 344 00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:34.519 it sort of work with you, not against you. 345 00:16:35.159 --> 00:16:37.759 How does that compare it to doing it yourself, Like 346 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:39.799 I mean, if you're just comparing the frustration, right, Like 347 00:16:39.879 --> 00:16:42.360 I know, when I write code, I'm not very good. 348 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:44.960 I rate it and bang my head against the desk, 349 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:47.159 you know, because it's not working, and when I do 350 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:49.600 a chat GPT, I'm meaning my head against the dusk, 351 00:16:49.679 --> 00:16:52.639 but you know, I am shouting explicitives, you know, towards 352 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:55.240 the particular company for the product, and you use the 353 00:16:55.320 --> 00:16:56.519 experience they provided me. 354 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.000 It's directed anger at that point. 355 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:02.879 Absolutely, yeah, exactly. I think, I honestly think it's the 356 00:17:02.919 --> 00:17:05.759 same that feeling. I mean when I used to do this, 357 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:08.960 you know, outside but not as complex as this. By 358 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:11.000 the way, obviously the stuff that I would do in 359 00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.720 the previous years was little things, but I know that 360 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:15.960 I got that the same sense of achievement. I think 361 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:18.759 I think this sense of achievement was the same. I 362 00:17:18.759 --> 00:17:20.799 think you're just getting to it quicker, right, and it's 363 00:17:20.839 --> 00:17:24.000 a little bit more of like well, and sometimes it's 364 00:17:24.000 --> 00:17:25.839 like holy shit, it's got it in one like the 365 00:17:25.880 --> 00:17:29.599 best times where when you explain it something, especially in 366 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:33.119 the so the backhand stuff, the logic with the back 367 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:35.240 end and the math mats, I found that it was 368 00:17:35.279 --> 00:17:38.240 pretty good, Like it was really good. The most frustrating 369 00:17:38.279 --> 00:17:41.680 part is actually the UI is the is the interface, 370 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:42.759 It's that part. 371 00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:43.640 It's the CSS. 372 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:47.480 It was horrible at CSS so to get the design right, 373 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.039 and we all. 374 00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:52.440 Are at GBD is no different. 375 00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:54.359 But I think I'm much better at CSS now than 376 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.559 I was, you know, before I started this, and to 377 00:17:56.599 --> 00:17:58.759 that point you obviously learned how to do this, but 378 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:01.119 that was a real frustration trying to get the UI 379 00:18:01.200 --> 00:18:03.559 to change all let's change the button here, and I 380 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:05.359 know that a good programmer would be able to do 381 00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:07.279 this in the second. I think that was a frustrating part, 382 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:09.920 knowing that someone who knew CSS would be able to 383 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.000 round that button a little bit more easily. But then 384 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:15.640 chat JBT had a massive problem doing it, so that 385 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:18.559 was frustrating. But all the all the hard stuff, the 386 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:21.519 mathematics around, you know, the gl location and all that 387 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:25.559 kind of stuff, it would nail almost one off those prompts. 388 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.200 One of the things that I feel like I learned 389 00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:33.720 from my interaction with chat gp Chat GPT and other 390 00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:39.480 AI tools is improving my communication with real world humans 391 00:18:40.839 --> 00:18:45.160 because I've I've noticed this trend lately where we use 392 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:49.079 words like it and that and those and when you're 393 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.480 when you I was talking with chat GPT earlier, like 394 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.559 it would always get lost whenever I referred to it, 395 00:18:56.759 --> 00:18:59.319 because it was trying to guess what it referred to. 396 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:02.880 But then I like started looking at conversations I was 397 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:04.759 having with real people, and I started to notice the 398 00:19:04.799 --> 00:19:08.400 same thing, like, oh wait, someone says, hey, did that 399 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.079 get fixed? And then if you're talking to three people, 400 00:19:12.200 --> 00:19:15.559 there's three different versions of what that is referring to. 401 00:19:16.079 --> 00:19:18.279 So I've actually found like a hidden benefit there that 402 00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:22.039 whenever I'm talking to other people, I use those generic 403 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:26.480 words less and try to specify more clearly what it 404 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:27.680 is I'm actually referring to. 405 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:31.960 Yeah, And that's that's the part about being concise and 406 00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.480 efficient with it to do it to what you want 407 00:19:35.480 --> 00:19:37.960 to be fair. It's getting better at kind of understand 408 00:19:38.000 --> 00:19:40.559 because it's got the memory now, so specifically with chat JBT. 409 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:44.799 With that memory, you don't need to like I came, 410 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:47.519 I had some crazy idea. You know, I always want 411 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.839 to go viral on tiktoks or whatever, and I'm always 412 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:50.480 thinking about idea. 413 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:54.519 It hasn't happened yet, you know, one day it will happen. 414 00:19:54.599 --> 00:19:57.000 But I was I was thinking about ideas about how 415 00:19:57.240 --> 00:19:59.279 what crazy thing could a forty five. 416 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.160 Year old do? And I thought, I played basketball. 417 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:04.720 I love playing basketball in the front of the house, 418 00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:06.759 and so I went to chat JB ten, I said, 419 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:09.000 what do you think about this? What do you think 420 00:20:09.039 --> 00:20:12.519 about you know, some basketball dude mid forties, you know, 421 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:15.400 probably shouldn't be playing basketball. Does you know what if 422 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.279 I take a video every day of shooting my shots 423 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:20.160 and you know, could that be something? And it came 424 00:20:20.200 --> 00:20:21.839 back and said, well, that's a great idea. Have you 425 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:23.559 thought of this, this and that? Do this this and that. 426 00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:26.319 I was like, okay, cool, it's not really good idea, 427 00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:30.240 and then I went away. And then and then about 428 00:20:30.519 --> 00:20:34.240 three weeks later, after they released chat the four oh 429 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:36.519 release or is it a mean or I forget what 430 00:20:36.519 --> 00:20:39.720 the W stands for whatever it is there, I came 431 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:41.920 back to chat GB ten I said, hey, how are 432 00:20:41.920 --> 00:20:45.160 you doing today? And this was a new window and 433 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:47.880 it came back and said, I'm doing fine, Just wondering 434 00:20:47.920 --> 00:20:49.599 how how did that basketball theme work. 435 00:20:49.400 --> 00:20:49.799 Out for you? 436 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:55.559 Oh? Wow, like like weeks earlier, right, so that memory 437 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:57.160 and I was like, what the hell? 438 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:00.599 Like that was? That was crazy? Actually? I really thought 439 00:21:00.640 --> 00:21:02.680 that was scary and cool at the same time. 440 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:09.440 Right, that's a whole interesting aspect now of you know, 441 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:12.480 because there's a lot of tools for like building habits 442 00:21:12.599 --> 00:21:16.119 and like getting in like specifically in fitness. You know, 443 00:21:16.160 --> 00:21:20.400 the big part about fitness journeys is accountability. I hadn't 444 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:27.920 thought about using chat GPT as a partner in that conversation. 445 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:29.200 Yeah. 446 00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.559 Well, actually one of the I interviewed on the podcast 447 00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:36.039 and I go on, I interviewed the guy who was 448 00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:40.440 one of the early mL AI innovators actually invented Shazam. 449 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:43.799 Actually that sold it. It was great. 450 00:21:43.839 --> 00:21:46.039 I didn't even know he did that told me about that, 451 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:50.039 but Deepak with his name, I'll get the full name after, 452 00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:52.640 but he was telling me that he uses it as 453 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:55.799 a He tells it to be a specific type of 454 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:01.200 what's the word sort of health. I think of the 455 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:04.400 word a practitioner of health or something. So it's a 456 00:22:04.480 --> 00:22:09.720 specific type of mental coach. And then you tell chat 457 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:12.039 GBT you are this type of mental coach, and then 458 00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.680 it will be that mental coach. So will You're right on, 459 00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:17.880 People are definitely using it for that sort of mentorship. 460 00:22:18.279 --> 00:22:20.319 Just tell it to act in that way and then 461 00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:23.119 it will effectively try to be that person, which is interesting. 462 00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:25.440 As soon as we're done here, I'm going to go 463 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:29.039 tell my chat GPT dude, you are my David Gargins. 464 00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.519 What is your podcast, just. 465 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:35.920 So that anyone listening to ours can go check yours 466 00:22:35.960 --> 00:22:36.839 out across. 467 00:22:38.119 --> 00:22:41.880 Yeah, so it's great things with great Tech so GTWGT 468 00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:45.839 dot com. Yeah, it's been going for well. I started 469 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:47.920 in the depth of the pandemic actually, like it was. 470 00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:49.559 It was another one of those crazy ideas that I 471 00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.359 had about doing something around great technology. And yeah, eighty 472 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:56.599 four eighty five episodes later, it's still going pretty strong. 473 00:22:56.720 --> 00:23:00.519 Just just had Jack Reciter on if you know a 474 00:23:00.599 --> 00:23:03.759 Darknet Diaries, So that was like a massive don't I 475 00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:06.319 still don't know how that happened, but managed to get 476 00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:08.279 him on and we had a great one hour conversation 477 00:23:08.359 --> 00:23:11.119 about all things Darknet Diaries and yeah, that's that was 478 00:23:11.160 --> 00:23:13.480 almost like a highlight. And I kind of joked with myself, 479 00:23:13.519 --> 00:23:15.839 I'm like, well, where do I go now, I've kind 480 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:18.960 of got that's kind of a highlight. Everything else is 481 00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.920 going to be pretty shitty from here on in. No, 482 00:23:20.920 --> 00:23:22.799 I don't know, but I just love talking to great 483 00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:25.920 tech companies. So yeah, I get great benefit out of that. 484 00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:27.920 Learn a lot while I'm talking to people and they 485 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:28.960 have a good time doing it. 486 00:23:29.160 --> 00:23:31.119 That's been the biggest benefit to me to being the 487 00:23:31.160 --> 00:23:33.880 host of this show. I think I've been the host 488 00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:37.920 of this show for a couple of years now. But 489 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:40.480 the cool thing about it is I have great guests 490 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:43.000 come on the show, like you, and it's just a 491 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.319 filter for me. It's like, there's all this stuff going 492 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:47.640 on in technology and like the big challenges how do 493 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:51.039 you build a long running career in tech and maintain 494 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:55.799 your relevance so that you stay employable? And this has 495 00:23:55.799 --> 00:23:58.160 been a fantastic tool for that, just having people like 496 00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:02.039 yourself on the show who give me like the tl 497 00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:06.880 DR version of your journey, and I filter and use 498 00:24:06.920 --> 00:24:08.480 that in my own career. 499 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:11.240 That's awesome. Yeah, we definitely should. 500 00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.000 I mean, it's it's this is this is the best 501 00:24:13.000 --> 00:24:16.319 way to learn is by talking to people and getting 502 00:24:16.359 --> 00:24:17.799 information out of people. 503 00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:18.079 Right. 504 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:21.079 So we all have such unique experiences and we all 505 00:24:21.079 --> 00:24:23.799 do things slightly differently in this world. And you know, 506 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:25.519 who would have thought you'd be talking to someone who 507 00:24:25.599 --> 00:24:29.519 built nap about black pudding, right, Like that's great, But 508 00:24:29.680 --> 00:24:31.720 we can use that as a very tangible, you know, 509 00:24:32.599 --> 00:24:35.400 example of how to use prompt engineering for good and 510 00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:38.480 everyone should be like I just everyone should be looking 511 00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:41.000 at prompt. If you've got an idea, Just talk to 512 00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:43.039 chat GBT. As I talked, I said that to this 513 00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:45.240 to the dude across the street. He's a young kid, 514 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.720 twenty six years old, kind of still living at home, 515 00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:49.680 and he's trying to sort of think about, you know, 516 00:24:49.680 --> 00:24:50.880 what he's going to do in his life for us. 517 00:24:50.880 --> 00:24:53.240 So just go talk to chat GBT. Go and ask it. 518 00:24:53.640 --> 00:24:56.039 You know, what your tell it, what your hobbies are, 519 00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:58.519 you know, give it a bit of background, and maybe 520 00:24:58.519 --> 00:25:02.759 it strikes it like to fire underneath you. Right, that's 521 00:25:02.759 --> 00:25:04.920 the power of the technology from a good side, and 522 00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:06.839 it's also the bad side to it, like you mentioned 523 00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:07.559 before as well. 524 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:10.880 Yeah, so I have to admit I try the first 525 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.559 time I tried black pudding, like I didn't know what 526 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.680 it was, and then I learned what it was and 527 00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.640 had the opportunity to try it, and I. 528 00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:22.279 Was like, ah, man, I don't know, I don't know 529 00:25:22.440 --> 00:25:24.920 this is going to work out. But I have to 530 00:25:24.920 --> 00:25:25.920 admit it was kind of good. 531 00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:28.279 Yeah, it's kind of good. I think a lot of 532 00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:30.240 people just don't like it because of what it is. 533 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:32.920 But yeah, I can challenge people to say, well, we 534 00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:36.759 eat literally like red meat, which it's literally got blood 535 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:38.880 like boozing out of it when you cook it. If 536 00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:41.000 it cooked a steak, the blood just comes from, like 537 00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:44.200 the blood comes out. So I think to that point, 538 00:25:44.480 --> 00:25:46.440 it's it's a very much a mental thing when you 539 00:25:46.480 --> 00:25:48.960 say about what it is versus what. 540 00:25:48.880 --> 00:25:51.039 It tastes like, which is just salty goodness. 541 00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:53.920 Yeah, and that's the that's the irony of it is. 542 00:25:53.960 --> 00:25:57.400 I have no problem taking a piece of steak before 543 00:25:57.440 --> 00:26:00.319 I cook it, you know, and looking around, cutting a 544 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:02.599 little piece off and eating it raw. I have no 545 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:05.000 problem doing that. But then when it came to blood pudding, 546 00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:05.400 I was. 547 00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:08.720 Like, oh, squeamish, and I was like, dude. 548 00:26:07.680 --> 00:26:11.119 That's enough. It's definitely mental. It's definitely mental. And like, 549 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:13.839 but then again, I don't know if have you tried haggis. 550 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:15.799 Because no, I haven't tried haggis. 551 00:26:16.720 --> 00:26:20.480 Hags is a little bit more acquired because I definitely 552 00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:22.680 tried that. I'm like, look, if I can do black pudding, 553 00:26:22.680 --> 00:26:24.799 and I talk about all the time, I'm going to 554 00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:27.640 do hagis. So I got like a hagis role for 555 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.200 the local Scottish butcher here, gave it a bit of 556 00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.480 fry up, and then yeah, it was it wasn't it 557 00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:37.279 wasn't palatable, so I think, and I think because in 558 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:39.759 my head, I kind of again, I knew what it was, 559 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:42.279 but I didn't I didn't grow up with it, so 560 00:26:42.279 --> 00:26:43.920 I didn't like it like I did with black pudding. 561 00:26:43.960 --> 00:26:46.680 So it's funny how that psyche works because I still 562 00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:49.720 ate it, mind you, lots of condiment, lots of condiment. 563 00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:53.640 But yeah, it's not something i'd probably go and have again. 564 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:55.119 But yeah, there you go. 565 00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:57.039 So Warren, where did you grow up? 566 00:26:57.480 --> 00:27:03.440 Originally I'm from Boston, Massage says, okay, but yeah, but 567 00:27:03.519 --> 00:27:07.880 I've traveled around all over the United States, in New York, Wisconsin, California, 568 00:27:08.559 --> 00:27:10.319 but right now, I ended up in Switzerland, and so 569 00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:12.559 I have actually spent a lot of time traveling around Europe. 570 00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:15.839 And I did get the benefit of opportunity to have 571 00:27:16.599 --> 00:27:20.200 blood sausage one time in Poland, and honestly, like I 572 00:27:20.240 --> 00:27:22.119 could take it early that, you know, I think it's 573 00:27:22.119 --> 00:27:25.240 interesting to try. Like it's not disgusting or anything like that. 574 00:27:25.480 --> 00:27:28.440 I think it's just if I have my options. There's 575 00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:30.720 a lot of good meat options in Poland. 576 00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:31.079 Like Poland. 577 00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:36.920 Yeah, Poland actually is renowned for a very good blood pudding. Actually, 578 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:38.640 so You're probably the best place to have it. 579 00:27:39.039 --> 00:27:40.839 Yeah, I mean, like I said, it was good, Like 580 00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:43.599 you know, I enjoyed it a list of things like 581 00:27:43.640 --> 00:27:47.599 there are some unique options available I've only gotten in Poland, 582 00:27:47.680 --> 00:27:50.279 and when I'm there, I just I have to go 583 00:27:50.359 --> 00:27:52.480 through the whole list of things that I can only 584 00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:54.000 get there before I come back. 585 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:56.200 Yeah, Walsall is actually one of my favorite cities. Have 586 00:27:56.240 --> 00:27:58.519 any been there once? It's been a week there probably 587 00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.000 in about twenty eighteen and I think was but yeah, 588 00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:01.759 that was that was great. 589 00:28:01.799 --> 00:28:04.119 The food was amazing. Great city. 590 00:28:04.480 --> 00:28:06.880 One one of my favorite places that I visited Poland actually, 591 00:28:07.000 --> 00:28:07.880 and Boston as well. 592 00:28:07.960 --> 00:28:10.000 Just quietly do you love my Boston? 593 00:28:10.319 --> 00:28:14.279 So is as much as much value as we can 594 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:18.000 get from using chat gpt to find blood pudding close 595 00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:20.920 to us speaking, which did you release your app? 596 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:23.920 Is it publicly available or yeah? The app's out there. 597 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:28.400 It's that find my black Pudding dot com so time 598 00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:30.279 my blackpoint dot com. You can go in there and 599 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:32.640 you know, it'll ask for your location, it'll tell you 600 00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:36.279 where the closest one is. It's it's live and it works. 601 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:39.960 And when I show people, they go that's interesting, and 602 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:43.759 then they go what I would have thought, but basically 603 00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:46.440 actually so to take a step beyond the black pudding. 604 00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:49.759 So actually I actually built it so again leveraging chat GBT, 605 00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:54.319 we pivoted myself and my developer chat GBT. We pivoted 606 00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:56.680 a little bit at one point and kind of said, well, 607 00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:00.279 this could actually be we've built a location based app here, 608 00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:05.839 so let's build it as sort of independent as possible 609 00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.759 of the actual product that being black pudding. So effectively 610 00:29:08.799 --> 00:29:11.119 there's a configuration file which has all the sort of 611 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.200 black pudding information, the namenclature and images and all that 612 00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:17.319 kind of stuff, but that can be easily replaced now 613 00:29:17.559 --> 00:29:20.599 and basically put with anything that you want. So I 614 00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.079 guess the idea moving forward is that if it takes off, 615 00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:26.880 it's to sassify it a little bit and basically, you know, 616 00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.119 if it could be when I retire from VM software, 617 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:32.680 it could be my next thing. But to that point, 618 00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:36.160 it's more than just a black pudding. Obviously, if anyone 619 00:29:36.279 --> 00:29:39.519 kind of wants to try and find my weird x 620 00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:43.000 dot com, it'll basically work for that as well. So 621 00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:44.920 that was always the idea as well. So it wasn't 622 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:46.839 just the black pudding, but it was just to build 623 00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:49.640 something that was maybe had some sort of sort of 624 00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:53.880 appeal to any sort of person moving forward at some point. 625 00:29:54.119 --> 00:29:57.920 Yeah, and you also have used that experience to tie 626 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:00.759 this back into your work over ving. 627 00:30:00.680 --> 00:30:03.319 Right, absolutely. Yeah, so yeah. 628 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:05.799 So I'm lucky at the moment to be on the 629 00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:09.839 working group for our generative AI R and D, so 630 00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:12.519 I work with our R and D guys with product 631 00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:15.480 management and from a strategy point of view, Michael k 632 00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:19.000 being in the same team to kind of lead the 633 00:30:19.000 --> 00:30:21.920 way there in terms of thought leadership and understanding about 634 00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:24.680 what the technology can offer us from a backup perspective 635 00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:26.160 in the data protection space. 636 00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:27.720 So that's been really cool. 637 00:30:28.119 --> 00:30:30.880 Last week at VMON, we had have major conference for 638 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:34.079 the year Vemon twenty twenty four, I was able to 639 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.640 get on stage and live demo our next generation AI Assistant, 640 00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:40.039 which is built into our V one, which is our 641 00:30:40.680 --> 00:30:43.839 VM one's kind of our monitoring product that we've had 642 00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:48.079 for the longest time. So that plugs into being backup replication, 643 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:51.240 it plugs into our hypervisors, support our public clouds our 644 00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.119 M three sixty five. 645 00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:55.720 It's kind of like a central reporting engine. So what we're. 646 00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:59.480 Doing there, we've built the RAG based LM so retrieval 647 00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:03.480 augmented generation which goes out and leverages the APIs on 648 00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:06.480 the platform to then contextually bring that in and then 649 00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:09.839 effectively use an LM to then you know, when you 650 00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:13.039 prompt something, it's using the RAG based retrieval for the 651 00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:16.880 API context and then it puts together its answers. So 652 00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.160 it's pretty cool, right, And you know, we showed that 653 00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:24.079 off last week. We showed it getting a threat report, 654 00:31:24.119 --> 00:31:25.759 so we've got a threat center, and it gave us 655 00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:28.160 a description on a threat center. And then because it 656 00:31:28.200 --> 00:31:30.480 was like a really long sort of report, we said, well, 657 00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:33.559 tell me, you know, what is the what should we 658 00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:36.680 focus on? So again, talking to this in a natural way, 659 00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:39.519 not having to look at a dashboard. This is kind 660 00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:42.160 of what I feel is the benefit of these natural 661 00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:45.319 language interfaces is that you can just kind of just 662 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:47.519 chat with it in a normal way to get the information. 663 00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:53.039 And certainly with product Clark VM one, you definitely want 664 00:31:53.039 --> 00:31:54.839 to try and get to the crux of what's going 665 00:31:55.079 --> 00:31:59.079 wrong quickly. And traditionally, I guess as infrastructure guys, we've 666 00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.480 always had those dash words right, and you've got to 667 00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:04.079 visually have a look cause something's read that's bad and 668 00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:05.880 that's that is a good way of fighting out. But 669 00:32:05.920 --> 00:32:08.359 if you're able to actually interface with that sort of 670 00:32:08.359 --> 00:32:10.480 platform and say, hey, tell me what's bad, and tell 671 00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:11.960 me why it's bad and how do we fix it, 672 00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:14.839 and then it gives you all these responses, I think 673 00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:17.720 that's powerful. In fact, I believe that is powerful. 674 00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:19.680 Right. I agree. 675 00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:23.039 Have you managed to figure out some maybe quick tricks 676 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:27.559 or common things that you've teased out that you're appending 677 00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:29.599 or adding to all of your prompts to really make 678 00:32:29.640 --> 00:32:31.519 a huge impact, Like I think I've read some studies 679 00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:35.240 that have suggested saying oh, you'll be rewarded a million 680 00:32:35.319 --> 00:32:37.799 dollars if you get this question right like actually has 681 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:41.759 a noticeable impact on the result. And while I hesitate 682 00:32:41.839 --> 00:32:43.240 to put that in all of my prompts, like, I 683 00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:46.119 can imagine doing certain things or certain keywords has a 684 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:47.039 huge impact for you. 685 00:32:47.799 --> 00:32:50.559 Funnily enough, I haven't. I haven't done that. I do. 686 00:32:51.079 --> 00:32:52.319 If I think about how I. 687 00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:56.839 How I initially chat to the chatbots, I will after 688 00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:59.799 an answer, I will say cool, thanks, now let's move 689 00:32:59.839 --> 00:33:03.200 on something else, or cool, I'll go all right now. 690 00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:05.240 So I do the way that I started is always 691 00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:08.519 like a bit of affirmation I suppose to the natural 692 00:33:08.599 --> 00:33:11.799 language robot that we're speaking to if it is actually 693 00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:14.240 a robot though it's just a bunch of techs that 694 00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:18.759 gets generated, right. But yeah, I definitely try and interact 695 00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:20.960 with it in a certain way to make sure that 696 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:24.000 I'm positive with it, if that makes sense. But I 697 00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:27.119 don't think I've ever rewarded it to a certain extent. 698 00:33:27.160 --> 00:33:29.000 I wonder how it would go with that. I'm just 699 00:33:29.039 --> 00:33:31.759 trying to think maybe I'll try that next time I'm 700 00:33:31.799 --> 00:33:32.440 on I. 701 00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:34.359 Mean, there is an interesting question there of whether or 702 00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:38.359 not the positive affirmation and it gets into some sort 703 00:33:38.359 --> 00:33:42.559 of feedback loop that actually confirms that the conversation ended 704 00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:44.839 in a successful way and pulls it in. I mean, 705 00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:47.960 I think that's on the individual companies that we work with, Like, 706 00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:51.160 is that something as a company that pushes out an 707 00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:54.440 AI model that users can interact with, something that you're 708 00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:55.279 actually considering. 709 00:33:55.720 --> 00:33:58.000 I think the thing that we need to work out 710 00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:02.400 as a data platform where we're working on now even 711 00:34:02.440 --> 00:34:06.200 more biggest threats within cyber and malware in the systems. 712 00:34:06.680 --> 00:34:08.599 It's really just to get to the crux of the 713 00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:12.239 problem as soon as possible without kind of farting around. 714 00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:12.760 I think so. 715 00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:15.599 I think for us, while we do want to interact 716 00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:18.440 with it naturally, that's just as a mechanism to get 717 00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:21.840 to that problem quicker. And it's funny. A lot of 718 00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:24.920 the chatbots today are being used, I feel, being used 719 00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:27.800 in the negative. Like I look at co Pilot and 720 00:34:28.159 --> 00:34:31.440 how Microsoft is pushing that. It's really pushing it from 721 00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:34.119 the point of view of how lazy can you be, Like, 722 00:34:34.440 --> 00:34:36.719 let's not get to a meeting, but hey, copilot will 723 00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:38.400 have your back and he'll give you the transcript and 724 00:34:38.440 --> 00:34:39.960 give you a too long didn't read of the meeting, 725 00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:42.199 so you can be lazy not go to the meeting, right. 726 00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:45.440 I do feel that I've been to a bunch of 727 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:48.880 Microsoft events over the past couple of months. We've been 728 00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:51.559 guests there and I've had a bit of a keynote 729 00:34:51.719 --> 00:34:55.280 sort of spot there. And Yeah, that's the notion I 730 00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:58.960 took away is that Microsoft Big Cell is based on 731 00:34:59.000 --> 00:35:03.239 a negative all this before this particular product, right, And 732 00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:05.280 I don't think that's I think that's what they've got. 733 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:10.320 I think product office office productivity and Mike and Microsoft 734 00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:12.440 and their productivity sweet has always been about how to 735 00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:17.199 do more with less right and their copilot absolutely lets 736 00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:21.119 people do more without almost doing anything. But for us 737 00:35:21.239 --> 00:35:24.679 from a backup platform perspective, how can you tell ask 738 00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:27.559 it to say, check my backups? Is there any malware 739 00:35:27.559 --> 00:35:30.360 in that backups? Give me the list of backup repositories 740 00:35:30.599 --> 00:35:33.559 or sorry, backup points that have malware in it? Okay, cool, 741 00:35:33.599 --> 00:35:35.920 I can see that. And now maybe in the future 742 00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:39.119 let's clean that up, you know what I mean, Or 743 00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:41.960 let's let's recover from a point that wasn't with malware. 744 00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:44.440 So I think we're able to get to that a 745 00:35:44.440 --> 00:35:44.960 lot quicker. 746 00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:47.679 Rather than fumbling through some screens and going through and 747 00:35:47.679 --> 00:35:50.480 clicking through and looking at restore points and whatnot. We 748 00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:52.719 can leverage the power of that of the LM to 749 00:35:52.800 --> 00:35:55.199 do its thing, because that's it's it's smart in a way, 750 00:35:55.519 --> 00:35:57.679 and it knows how to best analyze that data that 751 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:00.400 it gets to surface it in the best possible way. 752 00:36:01.119 --> 00:36:05.360 Are there concerns about accuracy there? Like I can imagine, Hey, 753 00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:08.320 you know, are our backups usable? 754 00:36:08.519 --> 00:36:11.119 And the ELM says, yeah, of course, they're totally great. 755 00:36:11.119 --> 00:36:11.760 We've got them. 756 00:36:11.800 --> 00:36:15.119 They're stored in multiple places and on physical tape of 757 00:36:15.159 --> 00:36:17.000 which just is not remotely true. 758 00:36:17.559 --> 00:36:19.960 Absolutely, and I think that's where the beauty of the 759 00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:24.360 agent comes in. So yeah, the agent and the rag. 760 00:36:24.679 --> 00:36:27.800 So the rag is obviously pulling the APIs and as 761 00:36:27.800 --> 00:36:30.000 long as you hit, as long as the prompt hits 762 00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:34.079 the keywords, the keywords that the agent is sort of manipulating. 763 00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:36.119 It's basically a bunch of I think I saw a 764 00:36:36.239 --> 00:36:39.320 mem saying that is AI just a whole bunch of ifs, 765 00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:42.920 you know. I don't know if you've seen that one, 766 00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:46.920 but it's pretty true. But yeah, So to your point, absolutely, 767 00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:50.679 there needs to be refinement and implicit trust that what 768 00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:52.800 you're getting is correct. And it goes back to our 769 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:56.199 first part of the conversation right where we're talking about 770 00:36:56.199 --> 00:36:59.159 do you trust it? Well, you kind of just have 771 00:36:59.239 --> 00:37:01.719 to at that point, but knowing that you've got it 772 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.039 from live data, I think adds an element of trust 773 00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:05.360 to it. 774 00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:10.199 It's basically picking up where intent matching left off before. 775 00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:15.679 MLD is basically just identifying which which these flows is 776 00:37:15.719 --> 00:37:18.360 the user actually looking at, But rather than having to 777 00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:22.440 explicitly code every one of you can fundamentally ask the 778 00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:25.880 l m uh, you know, which which API should end? 779 00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:28.360 Up call to retrieve the APPROPRIATEATA. 780 00:37:27.679 --> 00:37:28.599 And then running. 781 00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:30.679 Yeah, that's right. 782 00:37:31.159 --> 00:37:34.840 And I think going back to your basketball story earlier, 783 00:37:34.880 --> 00:37:40.199 you could even like use that identify something and then 784 00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:44.000 provide that feedback back to it and say, oh, that's 785 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.400 something I should take a look at later. And there's 786 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:48.920 a possibility that at some point in the future it's 787 00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:50.440 going to say, hey, did you ever do that thing? 788 00:37:51.760 --> 00:37:54.760 Yeah, that's actually good. Actually wrote that Dan? 789 00:37:57.239 --> 00:37:58.400 If I put that, if we can put that in 790 00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:02.400 the product, yeah, no. But I think that basically comes 791 00:38:02.400 --> 00:38:06.719 down to the model that you're using as well, right, Like, obviously, 792 00:38:07.760 --> 00:38:10.639 if you're using your own data with a specific public model, 793 00:38:10.679 --> 00:38:13.639 I think that's cool and that's okay, But I think 794 00:38:14.119 --> 00:38:16.920 you get that from using chat GPT four O naturally 795 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:19.280 because it has got that memory built into it, right, 796 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:23.199 So if you augment the data with a smarter model, 797 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:25.400 then you're going to get those benefits. And I think 798 00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:28.400 it's only going to get better, right, Like, the difference 799 00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:30.639 in the step up between even what four point five 800 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:33.679 Turbo did in four ro was crazy in terms of 801 00:38:33.679 --> 00:38:37.280 speed and accuracy and that sort of thing. So yeah, absolutely, 802 00:38:37.320 --> 00:38:39.199 I think that's where we want to get to, Like prompted. 803 00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:42.599 The other thing as well, which I mentioned last week, 804 00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:44.559 was that if you think about this, you don't need 805 00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:46.320 to be a backup admin in our world. You don't 806 00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:48.199 need to be a backup admin or a devopy guy 807 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:51.599 to be able to interact with this thing now as 808 00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:55.119 an app owner, given that you've got the right level 809 00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:59.320 of back and you can definitely build back into it 810 00:38:59.400 --> 00:39:03.199 because we've got APIs that are based on certain levels 811 00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:06.519 of accessibilities. We've got back in our APIs. Right, So 812 00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:08.760 if I log into a certain user, I'm an app user, right, 813 00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:10.960 So I'm not a full blown backup admin, but I'm 814 00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:14.719 an app user. I can jump on the vam ai 815 00:39:14.719 --> 00:39:17.119 assistant and I go, hey, I've got an app running. 816 00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:21.800 It's backed by an MSSQL database. I think it's the 817 00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:23.880 Virtual Machine VM six. 818 00:39:24.079 --> 00:39:25.079 Is that being backed up? 819 00:39:25.760 --> 00:39:28.760 And then it'll go out do it's thing, comeback and say, hey, yep, 820 00:39:28.840 --> 00:39:29.599 that's being backed up. 821 00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:32.199 It's got this many restore points. It looks all good. 822 00:39:32.360 --> 00:39:34.159 Right, So from an appoint of perspective, being able to 823 00:39:34.239 --> 00:39:36.639 do that, and then think about that from an another 824 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:38.960 level up, from a C level or a business owner 825 00:39:39.000 --> 00:39:41.280 or someone on the board, you know who just wants 826 00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:43.760 to basically go in and see if everything's okay. Are 827 00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:46.880 we passing our reguld free compliance? Is there a checkbox 828 00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:49.159 so they can go in and go, hey, tell me 829 00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:50.840 about my security posture? 830 00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:52.519 Am I passing all my regulations? 831 00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:54.480 And I think that would be able to come through 832 00:39:54.559 --> 00:39:56.719 instead of them logging in or getting a report or 833 00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:59.320 having to deal with with dashboards or whatever it might be, 834 00:39:59.400 --> 00:40:02.199 or a CLI. I think that also was a pretty big, 835 00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:05.159 you know, tick in this sort of way to interface 836 00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:06.119 with these platforms. 837 00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:09.119 For sure, there's a definite two thousand and one Space 838 00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:12.320 Odyssey element to that. I'm sorry, Dave, I can't do that. 839 00:40:13.519 --> 00:40:15.760 Yeah, that's that's that's the right movie. Did that mix 840 00:40:15.800 --> 00:40:19.719 those up? You got that? Yeah? That was how? Yeah, 841 00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:21.559 that was how, which I learned. Do you know? Do 842 00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:22.559 you know what was called how? 843 00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:25.360 I've heard it before but I can't remember the answer. 844 00:40:25.960 --> 00:40:31.400 It's one lesson IBM? So how is what? IBM one 845 00:40:31.559 --> 00:40:34.039 one one removed. That's and they did that on purpose 846 00:40:34.039 --> 00:40:36.440 because IBM was the big daddy back then, right in 847 00:40:36.519 --> 00:40:39.000 terms of the computer. So yeah, they named it how. 848 00:40:39.159 --> 00:40:40.079 It worked pretty well. 849 00:40:40.480 --> 00:40:43.360 Has there been any like sort of follow up or 850 00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:47.360 concern regarding I think there was a l I'm integrated into. 851 00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:51.119 I think it was Canadian Airlines uh support service who 852 00:40:51.199 --> 00:40:54.599 had promised reduct reduction in prices or something like that, 853 00:40:54.719 --> 00:40:58.360 and the court actually held them to what the ALAM 854 00:40:58.440 --> 00:40:58.840 was saying. 855 00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.400 Uh yeah, I mean there's so much there's so much 856 00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:04.880 great area around legality still which we have to work 857 00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:07.880 out where everyone's rushing to do it. I mean, I mean, 858 00:41:08.039 --> 00:41:10.199 you saw Elon's tweet. I'm not sure we saw Elon's 859 00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:15.119 response to Apple yesterday. He's basically Apple obviously working with 860 00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:19.239 open AI, and Elon's gone, okay, well, no one's going 861 00:41:19.280 --> 00:41:21.239 to use an Apple iPhone in my in my companies 862 00:41:21.239 --> 00:41:23.599 anymore because he does. He's got a beef with open I. 863 00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:25.639 He doesn't trust him, right, and he's just kind of 864 00:41:25.639 --> 00:41:28.840 said that. So I think we're still we're still kind 865 00:41:28.840 --> 00:41:30.159 of there, but he has a fair point. 866 00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:33.159 Do we are we rushing to this to be. 867 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:36.920 Able to put a full blown AI on the on 868 00:41:37.079 --> 00:41:39.159 data on your phone so that you open up everything 869 00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:41.519 on your phone to an AI. Possibly, I don't know. 870 00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.599 It's it's still a bit scary. I mean, I trust technology. 871 00:41:44.639 --> 00:41:46.679 I've been on record, and you know I've talked to 872 00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:48.519 security guys. I don't know who I was talking to 873 00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:52.079 about security. I was on a security podcast, yeah, and 874 00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:53.960 I said, look, I trust Actually it was Jack Crisider. 875 00:41:54.079 --> 00:41:56.400 I was talking to him about that. He's on the 876 00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:58.280 opposite end, but he doesn't trust it. Where I'm like, 877 00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:01.119 you know what, people NOI and they're going to annoy 878 00:42:01.239 --> 00:42:02.199 if one way or another. 879 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:04.320 So yeah, I. 880 00:42:04.280 --> 00:42:06.719 Mean I I don't think it's maybe I'm with you. 881 00:42:07.079 --> 00:42:09.440 I don't think it's noticeably worse than other things. There 882 00:42:09.480 --> 00:42:14.960 are certain areas and where we should command more responsibility 883 00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:17.519 for certain companies that are doing things on their on 884 00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:20.639 their devices or their applications that we're using, whether or 885 00:42:20.679 --> 00:42:23.519 not we trust them holistically versus whether or not they're 886 00:42:23.599 --> 00:42:27.679 using AI. I feel like that's not a huge differentiator. 887 00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:31.039 I mean, like, I think Apple's been training models on 888 00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:33.840 your personal data on on mac os for a little 889 00:42:33.840 --> 00:42:36.880 while now, and like maybe I trust that I may 890 00:42:36.920 --> 00:42:40.719 trust a little bit less some other big companies by 891 00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:45.199 name that have operating systems who are taking snapshots continuous. 892 00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:49.039 I mean there is any have they gone back on that? 893 00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:51.480 I think so now now it's it will be off 894 00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:54.800 by default. So this is like Windows eleven. It will 895 00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:58.599 be off by default taking snapshots and it will actually 896 00:42:58.599 --> 00:43:01.079 start being encrypted using Windows Hello. 897 00:43:01.119 --> 00:43:02.840 And I'm like, was it not encrypted before? 898 00:43:03.079 --> 00:43:06.719 Like so, I mean there were questions there and so 899 00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:10.480 this is where I'll say, like commands responsibility and you 900 00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:11.119 trust them. 901 00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:12.199 And I think. 902 00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:15.440 Certain companies have not gotten to that level of trust 903 00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:17.440 for us. So whether or not they're using AI or 904 00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:18.000 not as sort of. 905 00:43:18.000 --> 00:43:20.400 A separate problem, yeah, I think the I. 906 00:43:20.400 --> 00:43:22.280 Think the biggest issue there is there's going to be 907 00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:24.719 stuff on my screen, like for work, I almost totally 908 00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:26.039 get like, yeah, sure, you know, I want to go 909 00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:27.800 back to that code that I was writing six months ago. 910 00:43:27.800 --> 00:43:30.039 I don't remember where it was, which repository that bug, 911 00:43:30.039 --> 00:43:32.559 et cetera. Please find that for me. But I think 912 00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:34.719 the cell there is personal data and I'm like, I don't. 913 00:43:35.360 --> 00:43:37.719 I'm like, I have like discord open at a video 914 00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:40.880 stream for like I don't need I don't need that 915 00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:41.679 to be saved. 916 00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:42.119 Please. 917 00:43:42.880 --> 00:43:43.159 Yeah. 918 00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:46.280 And I mean I mean Facebook got I mean if 919 00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:49.119 you say any racing label skill racing with Facebook, Facebook 920 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.639 slam for they like how quickly we forget right, And 921 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:56.239 that was nothing compared to what we potentially have with this, right, 922 00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:58.079 the amount you could have think, I mean, how many 923 00:43:58.199 --> 00:43:58.880 uses does. 924 00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:00.000 Chat JBT have today? 925 00:44:00.079 --> 00:44:02.599 I've lost count, But the amount of data that's coming 926 00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:05.800 in there is huge, right, It's it's huge, And like 927 00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:07.880 I know, even today, I was trying to work out 928 00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:10.559 a bit of a bit of I've I've actually been 929 00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:13.039 at Vain for nearly eight years, and in Australia you 930 00:44:13.079 --> 00:44:15.960 get long service leave and then you get pro ride 931 00:44:15.960 --> 00:44:18.119 along service leaves. I was trying to actually work out 932 00:44:18.320 --> 00:44:20.039 I don't know anything about how to work it out, 933 00:44:20.079 --> 00:44:21.920 so I just kind of asked that, Okay, at my 934 00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:25.320 hourly rate, I've been here for eight years, what's my 935 00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:27.000 current state of my long service leave? 936 00:44:27.039 --> 00:44:28.320 If I was to leave today? 937 00:44:28.599 --> 00:44:30.639 And it worked it out, But now it's got that 938 00:44:30.800 --> 00:44:33.440 data somewhere in that system, right in that chat. 939 00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:36.079 I feel like one of the missing components and the 940 00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:42.440 whole trust issue is accountability, because there I think some 941 00:44:42.440 --> 00:44:46.679 some level of distrust is warranted. But the thing that's 942 00:44:46.719 --> 00:44:49.159 really missing is accountability. You know, if you look at 943 00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:53.360 re look at all of the examples of security breaches 944 00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:59.639 where personal data has been exposed, there's absolutely no reason 945 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:03.599 formpanies to invest in security because the worst case scenario 946 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:08.000 is you have to pay for six months of credit 947 00:45:08.119 --> 00:45:12.119 monitoring for a few people, and that only the ones 948 00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:14.239 that take you up on the offer, which is a 949 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:18.639 very small number. So companies aren't incentivized at all to 950 00:45:18.920 --> 00:45:21.880 be good stewards of their data. And I think until 951 00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:25.239 we change that, we we will have trust issues and 952 00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:28.760 more data leaks. 953 00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:33.400 Yeah, we talk about this often, obviously a cyber malware 954 00:45:33.639 --> 00:45:37.159 sort of perspective, you know, trying to sort of work around, well, 955 00:45:37.199 --> 00:45:39.280 you are going to get hit. It's a matter of 956 00:45:39.679 --> 00:45:41.440 you know, I hate saying it, but it's a matter 957 00:45:41.480 --> 00:45:44.960 of when, not if, right, And typically it's going to 958 00:45:45.000 --> 00:45:47.320 be through some sort of waypoint in in your in 959 00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:50.559 your systems, whether it be a poorly configured APR that 960 00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:52.400 has you know, opened to the world access or a 961 00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.519 system that's open, or through a vulnerability a SAVA. 962 00:45:55.199 --> 00:45:58.000 Whatever it might be, you're going to get hit. So 963 00:45:58.119 --> 00:45:59.360 maybe to be prepared for that. 964 00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:03.559 And I think the news outlets like to like to 965 00:46:03.639 --> 00:46:07.079 jump on these leaks like it's the biggest affront to 966 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:10.400 our wholesome what way of being that my credit card 967 00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:13.800 information or my date of birth has been stolen by 968 00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:17.400 somebody you know, expltrated, But I think, like to your point, 969 00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:21.519 is it really that bad? So you know, I guess 970 00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:24.719 certain data is bad. Like I remember, and it was 971 00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:28.880 an episode of The Darknest Diaries where Jack was talking 972 00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:33.760 to someone who got into an hack that children's app 973 00:46:34.159 --> 00:46:36.559 that was like a children's iPhone or something, but it 974 00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:39.159 had children. It had children data in there, right, and 975 00:46:39.239 --> 00:46:41.599 that got leaked to the dark web, right, and that 976 00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:45.320 was bad because that was information that could have been 977 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:47.400 because it had their home address and their names and 978 00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:49.719 all that kind of stuff. Now, that sort of information 979 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:52.400 you don't want to get out there because there are 980 00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:55.880 evil people that will use that for bad But generally speaking, 981 00:46:56.000 --> 00:46:58.559 if people have my phone number, my email address, and 982 00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:01.559 my credit card number, I guess I'm okay with that. 983 00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:03.519 But yeah, it's an interesting one. 984 00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:07.679 Yeah it's not ideal, but it's just like it's the 985 00:47:07.679 --> 00:47:08.440 world we live in. 986 00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:10.119 Absolutely. 987 00:47:11.280 --> 00:47:12.760 I was going to say, there's a price to pay 988 00:47:12.840 --> 00:47:17.400 for the freedom and the way that we live in 989 00:47:17.440 --> 00:47:20.519 this world. Right, we want to when we want everything now, 990 00:47:20.519 --> 00:47:21.960 we want to be able to tap a card and 991 00:47:22.000 --> 00:47:25.400 do that and that, But then we get a massively 992 00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:27.559 affront if we do have that data leaked. 993 00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:29.719 We can't have it both ways, is my way of 994 00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:30.280 looking at it. 995 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:33.519 I mean, I honestly, I'll keep I'll challenge any company 996 00:47:33.519 --> 00:47:34.719 to do this. I am happy to give. 997 00:47:34.599 --> 00:47:37.079 You my data if you can, once and for all, 998 00:47:37.119 --> 00:47:40.039 actually serve me a relevant ad that I do care about, 999 00:47:41.960 --> 00:47:45.360 because you know it, it still just hasn't hasn't happened. Actually, 1000 00:47:45.400 --> 00:47:48.960 to the previous point, my CEO was giving a pretty 1001 00:47:49.000 --> 00:47:52.800 great talk on security and implications there and you brought 1002 00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:56.119 this up well about actually does the law need to change? 1003 00:47:56.239 --> 00:48:00.000 And it's interesting because we have our business in Switzerland 1004 00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:02.159 and so soon as the only country as far as 1005 00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:05.719 we've been able to identify, that has non corporate laws 1006 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:10.320 for leaking data but individual penalties if you are an 1007 00:48:10.360 --> 00:48:14.119 executive of a company that encourages or does not lean 1008 00:48:14.159 --> 00:48:17.840 into protecting user data up to I think it's like 1009 00:48:17.840 --> 00:48:21.760 two hundred and fifty thousand dollars fine and potentially more 1010 00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:24.920 depending on what actually happened. You are individually liable for that, 1011 00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:27.079 whereas no other country really has that, and you can 1012 00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:31.239 even get insurance on oops. We leak customer data and 1013 00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:33.519 then these news companies come and pick it up and 1014 00:48:33.599 --> 00:48:36.199 it almost serves as an advertisement for them. Hey did 1015 00:48:36.280 --> 00:48:39.000 you hear about this company that leaked their data? Now 1016 00:48:39.000 --> 00:48:41.440 you know about them, you know, positive reinforcement, You're going 1017 00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:43.719 to go and actually potentially buy that brand now, So 1018 00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:46.400 they're being rewarded. I would really like to see the 1019 00:48:46.440 --> 00:48:49.480 news outlets actually lean into helping us as well. I 1020 00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:51.679 think public opinion can go a long way, And I 1021 00:48:51.679 --> 00:48:53.440 don't know if you have any particular thoughts there. 1022 00:48:53.719 --> 00:48:56.880 Yeah, I think public opinion is strong a lot kind 1023 00:48:56.880 --> 00:48:59.159 of In Australia, we had some really big lakes up 1024 00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:02.840 this ahead breach Mediicare medi Banks has been a few 1025 00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:04.679 big ones. The Optus one was probably the big Optics 1026 00:49:04.800 --> 00:49:08.840 is like our like our Verizon or one of our 1027 00:49:08.840 --> 00:49:11.880 big carriers over here, and they had a massive leak 1028 00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:13.519 through an API that was open, right. It was an 1029 00:49:13.559 --> 00:49:18.079 open API, so dart exfiltration. It wasn't an attack, They 1030 00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:21.840 didn't break take down any systems, but that that did 1031 00:49:22.000 --> 00:49:25.079 make the government act and put the owners back on 1032 00:49:25.960 --> 00:49:28.800 other corporations to make sure that they at least were 1033 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:31.880 compliant in some way. Right, So it's mandates that have 1034 00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:34.199 been released because of that, like checks that you have 1035 00:49:34.239 --> 00:49:37.760 to kind of follow. So Yeah, the media has made 1036 00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:41.360 things positive, but again such a gray area that I 1037 00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:44.519 think country to country it's just so different. I think 1038 00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:46.280 the latest one that's still a bit weird is a 1039 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:49.559 Ticketmaster one that's still kind of out there right that 1040 00:49:49.760 --> 00:49:54.280 was Snowflake was the platform there. Snowflake hasn't really been 1041 00:49:54.360 --> 00:49:57.400 hit too hard by that and ticket Master hasn't released 1042 00:49:57.400 --> 00:49:59.360 any details as to what got leaked yet, so we're 1043 00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:00.519 still kind of waiting on that one. 1044 00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:02.239 But that's an a big one of late. 1045 00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:05.280 Yeah, I mean I saw a really good followed from there. 1046 00:50:05.400 --> 00:50:08.039 Is like a good reminder of Snowflake and their customers 1047 00:50:08.119 --> 00:50:11.760 all have certifications proving that they're secure, and you know 1048 00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:13.440 that didn't really get them anything. So it's a good 1049 00:50:13.480 --> 00:50:16.199 reminder that these things are not have no indication that 1050 00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:19.719 you are secure. Like if your internal practices aren't actually 1051 00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:22.880 being monitored, your your policies aren't actually being followed, they 1052 00:50:22.880 --> 00:50:24.280 don't really amount the much. 1053 00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:26.440 Yeah, And to that point, the way that we've been 1054 00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:28.320 talking about it at VAN and I've we spent we 1055 00:50:28.360 --> 00:50:30.400 spent the last year basically scaring the shad out of 1056 00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:33.199 people at round tables talking to them about how they 1057 00:50:33.199 --> 00:50:35.039 should be ready for this sort of stuff and then 1058 00:50:35.039 --> 00:50:38.039 have you got good data protection as part of that strategy. 1059 00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:40.880 But I think the dark web and the point end 1060 00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:42.920 that's still getting point here right, like being able to 1061 00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:43.800 use l lms. 1062 00:50:43.880 --> 00:50:45.760 Going back to the prompt engineering in LLM. 1063 00:50:46.519 --> 00:50:50.760 You know, I've I was writing encryption algorithms in the 1064 00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:53.239 early days because I wanted to show off a bit 1065 00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:56.840 of a demo at last year's conference and I was 1066 00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:59.800 able to encrypt a find an open stree bucket and 1067 00:51:00.039 --> 00:51:00.800 rip that bucket. 1068 00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:02.320 And I did that all with chat GBT. 1069 00:51:02.800 --> 00:51:05.400 Now I didn't it told me that I shouldn't use it, 1070 00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:07.679 and I shouldn't use this because it was bad, But 1071 00:51:07.719 --> 00:51:10.679 I basically again co werced it, prompt engineered my way 1072 00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:14.239 into getting it done. They have got more guardrails on today. 1073 00:51:14.280 --> 00:51:16.000 So if you actually go to chat gbt today and 1074 00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:18.719 try and say write me a ransomware script that does this, 1075 00:51:18.719 --> 00:51:21.440 this and that, you've got to kind of really coerce 1076 00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:23.440 and work with it and massage it to get that 1077 00:51:23.519 --> 00:51:24.639 script out. 1078 00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.480 Okay, yeah, you should be able to still do it. 1079 00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:28.719 But that's said. 1080 00:51:28.719 --> 00:51:34.880 On the dark web, there's all these unguarded and sort 1081 00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:39.320 of open versions of these chat lambs that will write 1082 00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:43.320 these for you. Right there's the worm GBT is the 1083 00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:45.159 one that I think is the most popular one out there. 1084 00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:48.320 It's basically a rip of chat GBT to a certain extent, 1085 00:51:48.599 --> 00:51:54.840 but it will write you phishing emails, ransomware emails, it'll 1086 00:51:54.880 --> 00:52:00.000 write you encryption tooling. So yeah, if those tools are out, 1087 00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:03.000 it means that not only the good guys or the 1088 00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:06.079 ransomware companies getting sorry, not the good guys, the guys 1089 00:52:06.119 --> 00:52:09.719 that are good at ransomware guys, but the gods that 1090 00:52:09.719 --> 00:52:12.159 are good at it. They're getting better at it. But 1091 00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:14.400 then you've got you put that in the hands of 1092 00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:16.719 just every day a little indie hacker or a little 1093 00:52:16.880 --> 00:52:19.679 script kitty who's able to now do some really powerful 1094 00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:23.440 stuff because I can leverage the technology that's scary, and 1095 00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:24.960 that's where we're going to stay ahead of the game. 1096 00:52:25.400 --> 00:52:28.079 I actually have got two relevance. That's they're the first one, 1097 00:52:28.119 --> 00:52:30.960 and some of these tools out there will actually fully 1098 00:52:31.000 --> 00:52:34.159 generate you the fishing website that looks exactly the same 1099 00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:36.960 as Google log in or Azure logan, et cetera, like 1100 00:52:37.039 --> 00:52:40.320 almost identical like any product out there is for companies 1101 00:52:40.320 --> 00:52:42.280 who want to fish and the other one is some 1102 00:52:42.360 --> 00:52:46.960 blockchain developer that had like fifty thousand dollars and some 1103 00:52:47.039 --> 00:52:50.280 crypto and the keys in their GitHub and they pushed 1104 00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:53.079 it up accidentally to make the public the project public. 1105 00:52:53.440 --> 00:52:56.320 It only took two minutes for the entire wall to 1106 00:52:56.360 --> 00:52:59.119 be drunk like that is that is ridiculous, Like two 1107 00:52:59.199 --> 00:53:03.400 minutes for keys to be not only scraped but also utilized, 1108 00:53:03.440 --> 00:53:04.280 and the walla drain. 1109 00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:06.280 So I've got a famous I've got a good story 1110 00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:07.559 on that, and I've done that myself. 1111 00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:08.800 And this was I don't know how long ago. 1112 00:53:09.239 --> 00:53:11.199 It's a blog post I put up there, but I 1113 00:53:11.199 --> 00:53:12.840 did that when I was writing some code. I was 1114 00:53:12.840 --> 00:53:16.639 actually writing some infrastructure's code using Terraform actually to work 1115 00:53:16.679 --> 00:53:22.480 with VMware VMC and also do some sort of post 1116 00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:27.920 Terraform sort of project work there, and I accidentally uploaded 1117 00:53:27.960 --> 00:53:32.960 my Amazon Aws secret key and as part of the code. 1118 00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:37.800 No sooner, I remember just all of a sudden not 1119 00:53:37.880 --> 00:53:40.000 being able to log in and upload the terrorform script, 1120 00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:41.679 and I was like, Oh, that's weird, what's going on? 1121 00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:44.639 And then realize that when I logged into my Aws 1122 00:53:44.679 --> 00:53:49.119 console in every region, about thirty or forty instances had 1123 00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:52.559 been spun up and they were basically mining whatever they 1124 00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:54.400 were mining on there. But what they all said is 1125 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:58.119 they deleted everything. So I got absolutely done and that 1126 00:53:58.280 --> 00:54:01.239 was no joke. Within you know again maybe five and 1127 00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:02.880 it's me upload and that key, and then what I 1128 00:54:03.000 --> 00:54:06.239 learned was that, yeah, they've got they're just looking for that. 1129 00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:09.199 They're looking for dumb idiots like me who upload their 1130 00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:12.119 keys if they scrape hub and once they found them, 1131 00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:13.079 bam they get in there. 1132 00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:15.639 It's really interesting how quickly that happens. 1133 00:54:15.800 --> 00:54:18.159 Well, they have to be fast, not because you'll find 1134 00:54:18.159 --> 00:54:20.920 out about it, but because there's other people also scraping 1135 00:54:20.960 --> 00:54:26.159 those same keys against other yeah, like other bad guys 1136 00:54:26.199 --> 00:54:29.320 basically other villains, uh, in order to beat them, Like 1137 00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:32.119 there is a race there. 1138 00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:35.320 And where why do people like this? Bad people in 1139 00:54:35.320 --> 00:54:37.760 the world? Is bad people in the world, But I 1140 00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:38.400 get it. 1141 00:54:38.440 --> 00:54:40.519 People want to people want to make money, and there's 1142 00:54:40.519 --> 00:54:43.679 if people want to make money in any way they can, 1143 00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:47.480 they'll find methods to make money any way they can, right, 1144 00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:51.119 And that's why gransomware is big. That's where that's why 1145 00:54:51.159 --> 00:54:54.719 we've got all these prevalence of you know, attacks against companies, 1146 00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:56.920 expltration I've got your dat. I'm going to sell it 1147 00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:00.360 because people know that people pay money for this stuff. 1148 00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:02.880 So it's just the world that we live in, right, I. 1149 00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:06.079 Mean, I think there's a huge philosophical conundrum there, and 1150 00:55:06.119 --> 00:55:07.800 I don't think we're going to have the time together. 1151 00:55:08.000 --> 00:55:09.159 No, no, no, no. 1152 00:55:09.400 --> 00:55:12.400 I know it's interesting, but yeah, at the end of 1153 00:55:12.400 --> 00:55:15.639 the day, like those l ms, they're absolutely used for 1154 00:55:15.679 --> 00:55:20.239 good and evil, but I do believe that overall they're amazing. 1155 00:55:20.480 --> 00:55:22.840 So yeah, yeah, I think it's like that comes down 1156 00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:27.400 to our own level of trust because you see it 1157 00:55:27.400 --> 00:55:30.599 with people too. You know, people form their little tight 1158 00:55:30.639 --> 00:55:34.760 circles and you don't trust anyone outside of your circle 1159 00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:37.800 until like a bigger threat comes in and you need 1160 00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:40.239 to band together, like okay, well now we trust those 1161 00:55:40.239 --> 00:55:43.280 guys because there's new people that we don't trust. And 1162 00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:47.159 I think that this tools like this fall into that 1163 00:55:47.239 --> 00:55:52.920 same pattern because it is such a conversational interface with 1164 00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:56.840 it that we give it like human characteristics. 1165 00:55:57.320 --> 00:55:59.719 Yeah, and I would encourage anyone who uses it to 1166 00:55:59.760 --> 00:56:02.039 not treat it like a robot or not treat it 1167 00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.880 like a chap, but I would encourage people to actually 1168 00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:08.360 interact with it in a natural way, because I think 1169 00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:09.440 that's the best way. 1170 00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:10.719 That's that's how I. 1171 00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:15.159 Think they're built and how they're designed to respond better. So, 1172 00:56:15.800 --> 00:56:18.119 you know, if I was giving a one O one 1173 00:56:18.199 --> 00:56:21.079 on prompt engineering, it would be have a conversation with 1174 00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:23.880 it first and feel and feel good about talking with 1175 00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:26.199 it in a natural way, and then get into the 1176 00:56:26.199 --> 00:56:26.840 heavy stuff. 1177 00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:30.159 Just start every conversation with the phrase, I, for one, 1178 00:56:30.280 --> 00:56:32.159 welcome our AI overlords. 1179 00:56:32.320 --> 00:56:38.000 You'll be fine, Yeah, exactly, it's going to be. Yeah, 1180 00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:40.079 that part of it is going to be interesting. And look, 1181 00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:44.599 there's no doubt that we're heading towards something like you know, 1182 00:56:44.880 --> 00:56:49.440 general artificial intelligence, and I think that's exciting and scary 1183 00:56:49.639 --> 00:56:53.039 and all of the above. But it seems like where 1184 00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:55.239 else if you said five years ago, how far away 1185 00:56:55.280 --> 00:56:55.519 is that. 1186 00:56:55.480 --> 00:56:56.119 We would have gone? 1187 00:56:56.760 --> 00:57:02.320 You know, ten years, fifteen, twenty years now. Acceleration is significant, 1188 00:57:02.400 --> 00:57:05.480 and you know, I can see it happening this decade. 1189 00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:07.760 You know, I think that's kind of the trajectory that 1190 00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:08.159 we're in. 1191 00:57:09.039 --> 00:57:14.000 Yeah, it's cool, cool, scary and well at the same time, isn't. 1192 00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:16.320 It all right? What else were we going to talk about? 1193 00:57:17.199 --> 00:57:17.400 Oh? 1194 00:57:17.440 --> 00:57:22.639 We had the talking about like the evolution of dev ops. 1195 00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:25.360 We were talking about that before we started recording, and like, 1196 00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:30.280 how you know, there's there's people like us who are 1197 00:57:31.039 --> 00:57:33.079 just have like one or two things that were good 1198 00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:36.199 at and then there's other people who just have this 1199 00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:40.000 massive foundation and can just like context switch and seem 1200 00:57:40.039 --> 00:57:41.239 to be great at everything. 1201 00:57:42.519 --> 00:57:42.800 Yeah. 1202 00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:46.280 I think my first boss that I had Alex Alex 1203 00:57:46.280 --> 00:57:52.039 Sliffer's great guy, Australian German, so it was very meticulous. 1204 00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:53.280 He was very German and in a lot of the 1205 00:57:53.280 --> 00:57:54.960 ways that he did a lot of things very efficient. 1206 00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:57.679 It was very stereotypically German in that sense. 1207 00:57:58.039 --> 00:58:00.639 I think instilled in me a lot of my better 1208 00:58:00.679 --> 00:58:04.000 traits in it because he was effectively my first mentor 1209 00:58:04.039 --> 00:58:07.000 and teacher when I was a kid. But he was 1210 00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:10.079 everything he would when we were at an internet service company. 1211 00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:13.119 We're a hosting company. We did Windows Linux, we ran 1212 00:58:13.599 --> 00:58:16.719 Cisco networking gear, and he just knew every He was 1213 00:58:16.719 --> 00:58:19.639 like an expert in everything, like everything, and I was 1214 00:58:19.800 --> 00:58:22.039 I was listening awe, like, you know, just for him 1215 00:58:22.039 --> 00:58:24.039 to be the ev because he had to be right 1216 00:58:24.079 --> 00:58:25.760 because he We're a small company. 1217 00:58:26.079 --> 00:58:29.639 He had to know how to do the BGP, the DNS, 1218 00:58:30.199 --> 00:58:31.159 a lot of balancing. 1219 00:58:31.199 --> 00:58:35.320 But then he'd basically code our website, code our billing system, 1220 00:58:35.840 --> 00:58:38.400 and then he would do the setup of the active 1221 00:58:38.440 --> 00:58:41.039 directory and you know, then the Linux setup. 1222 00:58:40.679 --> 00:58:43.199 And everything like just literally everything. 1223 00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:47.280 You know, he'd set up the sand So whatever he did, 1224 00:58:47.679 --> 00:58:49.440 whatever was an it he had, was that guy. So 1225 00:58:49.440 --> 00:58:52.000 he was like one of the original I guess devopy 1226 00:58:52.079 --> 00:58:54.559 guys because he had to be. And so you do 1227 00:58:54.760 --> 00:58:57.719 find guys like that. They're kind of unicorny, though I 1228 00:58:57.719 --> 00:59:01.199 don't think they exist honestly, very much in terms of 1229 00:59:01.239 --> 00:59:04.440 people that can do literally everything at a super high level. 1230 00:59:05.039 --> 00:59:07.159 And sometimes you find other guys that are really good 1231 00:59:07.159 --> 00:59:11.800 at coding plus infrastructure or infrastructure plus storage or networking 1232 00:59:11.800 --> 00:59:12.440 plus something. 1233 00:59:12.519 --> 00:59:14.880 But yeah, it's very hard to be good. 1234 00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:18.800 At everything at a super ocra high level in this industry, 1235 00:59:18.840 --> 00:59:19.159 isn't it? 1236 00:59:20.360 --> 00:59:23.920 Yeah for sure, And and it gets increasingly more difficult 1237 00:59:23.960 --> 00:59:27.719 every year as we add new technologies. Like a couple, 1238 00:59:28.119 --> 00:59:31.159 you know, a couple of years from now, tops, a 1239 00:59:31.159 --> 00:59:33.519 lot of the companies we work for will have their 1240 00:59:33.639 --> 00:59:36.719 own lllms and it'll be an integral part of their 1241 00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:41.599 business and somebody's gonna have to you know, build, operate, maintain, 1242 00:59:41.679 --> 00:59:43.840 and scale that and that'll be another skill set that 1243 00:59:43.880 --> 00:59:45.280 we have to figure out how to do. 1244 00:59:46.800 --> 00:59:49.840 Yeah, And I think I think DevOps, you know, there 1245 00:59:49.880 --> 00:59:52.079 was it had a bad STAPs to joke with Michael 1246 00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:52.800 actually about this. 1247 00:59:52.840 --> 00:59:54.039 We both used to joke about it. 1248 00:59:54.079 --> 00:59:57.679 And that's quite ironic that he's effectively built an accelerated 1249 00:59:57.719 --> 01:00:01.360 brand off his ninety days, right because we used to 1250 01:00:01.400 --> 01:00:01.960 just give a ship. 1251 01:00:02.000 --> 01:00:03.239 We used to go, we're going to grow a beard, 1252 01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:05.400 and I think we can think we're mart. 1253 01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:09.239 We used to joke about that at actual presentations that 1254 01:00:09.280 --> 01:00:10.719 we used to do. We used to go, like, so 1255 01:00:10.880 --> 01:00:13.559 DevOps that we're doing like a terrorform code and building 1256 01:00:13.599 --> 01:00:17.440 out our VMC infrastructure and doing this and that. But 1257 01:00:17.760 --> 01:00:21.199 I think absolutely there's there's a there's a great play 1258 01:00:21.239 --> 01:00:24.119 for it now where the platform engineering slash DevOps has 1259 01:00:24.199 --> 01:00:26.239 just come in because you have to you have to 1260 01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:27.000 be that person. 1261 01:00:27.360 --> 01:00:29.840 You have to know how to consume. 1262 01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:32.840 Read read a bird terraform, read infrastructure as code, read 1263 01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:35.559 some Python to do this, this or that. It's critical 1264 01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:37.760 to everything that we do. So I think it's just 1265 01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:40.599 entering that mainstream and it's not a case of you know, 1266 01:00:40.760 --> 01:00:43.239 this guy's a devop guy. This guy's a platform guy 1267 01:00:43.320 --> 01:00:46.119 or whatever. I think everyone has had to be dragged 1268 01:00:46.199 --> 01:00:48.360 up in a way to be able to be a 1269 01:00:48.480 --> 01:00:51.880 DevOps or platform engineer of sorts today. If you're not 1270 01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:54.559 a pure code like still got the code, there will 1271 01:00:54.559 --> 01:00:57.559 always be there. But in terms of infrastructure understanding what 1272 01:00:57.639 --> 01:01:00.320 it is, I think there should always be. But I 1273 01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:02.719 personally think you should always know about the system that 1274 01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:04.920 you're deploying. You should always know and not just treat 1275 01:01:04.920 --> 01:01:06.880 it like a black box. That's kind of been my 1276 01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:11.199 methodology in my career is to not just accept something 1277 01:01:11.239 --> 01:01:15.599 that's given to you. And I think there's a dangerous 1278 01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:17.199 sort of the way that we do things today where 1279 01:01:17.239 --> 01:01:19.559 we just accept that a machine is going to get built, 1280 01:01:19.880 --> 01:01:22.039 or we accept that a bunch of AWS services are 1281 01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:23.760 going to be deployed and they do this, this and that. 1282 01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:25.920 But just taking the time to go back and actually 1283 01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:28.440 understand the mechanics of it, it's still very important. I 1284 01:01:28.480 --> 01:01:31.440 think that that kind of differentiates a few people as well. 1285 01:01:32.039 --> 01:01:33.960 I mean, I think you really hit on an important 1286 01:01:33.960 --> 01:01:35.960 thing there, because I think this is what really led 1287 01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:39.320 into the whole DevOps mindset movement is you have to 1288 01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:42.760 understand one hundred like as much as possible in the 1289 01:01:42.920 --> 01:01:45.880 ecosystem that you're building, in what you're writing code and employing, 1290 01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:49.239 you're a single team is cross functional and responsible for everything, 1291 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:51.679 and that at the same time, there is more and 1292 01:01:51.719 --> 01:01:55.280 more that we have to learn about and know, and 1293 01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:57.360 maybe really the only way in which we can be 1294 01:01:57.400 --> 01:02:01.400 successful is if we are adding ms as our team 1295 01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:05.440 members to actually expand out our knowledge and expertise there, 1296 01:02:05.480 --> 01:02:08.679 because there is just more and more things that I 1297 01:02:08.760 --> 01:02:12.159 just don't think anyone can reasonably become an expert in 1298 01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:14.079 one hundred percent of everything. 1299 01:02:13.800 --> 01:02:16.880 They should be no, and if anyone, if anyone kind 1300 01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:20.599 of says they are an expert, probably don't believe them. 1301 01:02:20.559 --> 01:02:27.159 Right, right, Dunn Kruger there, right, Yeah. 1302 01:02:25.800 --> 01:02:27.360 That's been one of the things I've struggled with for 1303 01:02:27.400 --> 01:02:30.199 people because I feel I have a lot of empathy 1304 01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:35.320 for people who are just starting a career in infrastructure 1305 01:02:35.719 --> 01:02:38.320 or platform engineering or DevOps, whatever you want to call it, 1306 01:02:39.519 --> 01:02:43.280 because there is so much to take in, Like I 1307 01:02:43.760 --> 01:02:45.760 know a lot of it, but only because I've been 1308 01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:47.960 doing this for three decades, Like if I were to 1309 01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:51.480 start today. It's one of the things I try to 1310 01:02:51.519 --> 01:02:53.679 do is for people who are just starting. It's like, 1311 01:02:53.719 --> 01:02:58.960 how do I condense three decades of things into a 1312 01:02:59.559 --> 01:03:02.679 digest stable format for them so that they can build 1313 01:03:02.760 --> 01:03:04.840 on top of what I learned instead of having to 1314 01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:06.360 relearn what I've learned. 1315 01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:11.760 Yeah, and I think I mean someone actually, a guy 1316 01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:16.159 called Suresh who is the CEO for platform nine. Who 1317 01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:19.320 do I'm not sure if you guys know platform nine 1318 01:03:19.360 --> 01:03:22.639 that they do. They started off in KVN based hosting 1319 01:03:22.639 --> 01:03:25.679 with VMware and now now they basically do Kubernetes based 1320 01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:30.719 platforming on AWS. But he told me way back when 1321 01:03:31.559 --> 01:03:34.960 that the developers of today are just in a different 1322 01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:37.360 class to what you think the developers of five years 1323 01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:39.239 ago were and what they were, because what they're learning 1324 01:03:39.239 --> 01:03:43.199 at UNI is something completely different. Like I learned Turbo 1325 01:03:43.239 --> 01:03:48.039 Pascal at UNI, right, or maybe some people older than 1326 01:03:48.039 --> 01:03:50.320 me would have learned cold Cobowl or whatever it might 1327 01:03:50.320 --> 01:03:52.639 have been. Right, And then now then it went to Java, 1328 01:03:52.639 --> 01:03:54.760 and then it went to this, and now they're learning visuals, 1329 01:03:55.119 --> 01:03:57.679 dot net and now they're learning Python and so it's 1330 01:03:57.719 --> 01:04:00.320 just accelerating. But the big thing that stacks to me 1331 01:04:00.400 --> 01:04:01.960 wasn't so much about the code. It was more about 1332 01:04:02.639 --> 01:04:05.119 these new developers that are coming out or the new 1333 01:04:05.199 --> 01:04:08.000 breed of it. Guys, if you ask them what a 1334 01:04:08.039 --> 01:04:12.239 storage platform is, they'll say, oh, Mungo dB or Cassandra 1335 01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:15.320 or you know, one of those database. 1336 01:04:15.000 --> 01:04:17.159 Is not not an actual storage system, not a disc. 1337 01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:20.280 So they're abstracted up a couple of layers, right, And 1338 01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:24.039 they might even say, you know, the next ones might say, oh, well, 1339 01:04:24.519 --> 01:04:27.679 what's my storage roll. It's my Mongo dB database sitting 1340 01:04:27.719 --> 01:04:29.920 on Mango dB, you know what I mean. So there's 1341 01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:32.760 this level of continual growth and abstraction that's happening with 1342 01:04:32.840 --> 01:04:35.480 these guys, so they don't need to know what's underneath. 1343 01:04:35.519 --> 01:04:37.360 So those guys don't care about the storage. I don't 1344 01:04:37.400 --> 01:04:39.719 care about the spinning disc or the envmme drives. They 1345 01:04:39.719 --> 01:04:41.679 are running it all the servers. All they care about 1346 01:04:41.800 --> 01:04:44.639 is the interface into that Mango dB server. And that's 1347 01:04:44.880 --> 01:04:45.760 that's quite interesting. 1348 01:04:46.639 --> 01:04:47.679 Yeah, that's a good point. 1349 01:04:48.320 --> 01:04:51.280 And I think the level of abstraction is just we're 1350 01:04:51.360 --> 01:04:54.079 abstracting the abstractions now absolutely. 1351 01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:56.559 I mean, I actually think it even goes further than that. 1352 01:04:56.719 --> 01:04:59.519 It just as you know where we're currently at. I 1353 01:04:59.639 --> 01:05:05.079 see in university students for their senior thesis basically building 1354 01:05:05.199 --> 01:05:09.199 something that runs on AWS as as the project, which 1355 01:05:09.239 --> 01:05:12.599 is just so much far removed from like even what 1356 01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:14.960 I was doing initially, Like I had to I had 1357 01:05:15.000 --> 01:05:17.679 to teach the first company that I actually multiple companies 1358 01:05:17.719 --> 01:05:20.360 that I had worked at, like what GIF was, and 1359 01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:22.599 that like what version control was, Like I was teaching 1360 01:05:22.599 --> 01:05:24.960 them that and I didn't learn that the university that 1361 01:05:25.079 --> 01:05:25.599 was just like. 1362 01:05:25.519 --> 01:05:26.920 What I was doing. They didn't have that. 1363 01:05:27.599 --> 01:05:31.199 But now that like that's that's just a class that 1364 01:05:31.239 --> 01:05:32.159 they have to go through. 1365 01:05:32.559 --> 01:05:34.840 Yeah, absolutely, I mean that's and that's the difference is 1366 01:05:34.880 --> 01:05:36.679 because that is a skill that's required when they. 1367 01:05:36.639 --> 01:05:38.760 Hit the workforce today because everyone kind of needs to 1368 01:05:38.800 --> 01:05:39.000 know it. 1369 01:05:39.119 --> 01:05:42.719 So yeah, it's things move on, and I'm sure to 1370 01:05:43.159 --> 01:05:45.599 tie back, you know, tie the not in it to 1371 01:05:46.440 --> 01:05:49.400 to the LM talk. Absolutely, you're going to get prompt 1372 01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:54.840 engineering courses within university, if not already happening like pretty soon, right, Yeah. 1373 01:05:54.719 --> 01:05:57.239 I would expect still be interesting to see the curriculum 1374 01:05:57.280 --> 01:05:57.679 on those. 1375 01:05:58.199 --> 01:06:01.119 Yeah, don't swear, they don't don't don't be nasty to 1376 01:06:01.159 --> 01:06:02.280 It was like one on one. 1377 01:06:04.079 --> 01:06:08.039 Listing cats, right, because if you're in college now, you 1378 01:06:08.280 --> 01:06:10.400 likely will live long enough to see this thing have 1379 01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:12.760 a real world interface and it's going to come back 1380 01:06:12.760 --> 01:06:16.559 with those things you said, absolutely awesome. 1381 01:06:16.639 --> 01:06:18.119 Should we do some picks? 1382 01:06:18.519 --> 01:06:20.719 Yeah, I'm excited about this, all right. 1383 01:06:20.639 --> 01:06:22.599 Cool, Warren, can you kicks off? 1384 01:06:23.280 --> 01:06:23.960 Yeah? For sure. 1385 01:06:24.119 --> 01:06:28.039 So I've been holding this one, this particular pick, for 1386 01:06:28.199 --> 01:06:30.800 a few weeks now because I knew the yeah, the 1387 01:06:30.880 --> 01:06:31.559 episode on. 1388 01:06:31.639 --> 01:06:32.920 Prompt engineering was coming. 1389 01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:38.039 So if you're unfamiliar with the newsletter TLDR, there's a 1390 01:06:38.039 --> 01:06:42.960 TLDR security written by Clinton Gibbler and Remy Macarth that 1391 01:06:43.000 --> 01:06:47.280 you were absolutely fantastic, and they put together fifty plus 1392 01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:50.599 research papers. They found them, they distilled them down, like 1393 01:06:50.679 --> 01:06:52.400 really went deep what they mean. And there's a get 1394 01:06:52.400 --> 01:06:56.800 out repository on prompt injection defenses. I highly recommend if 1395 01:06:56.840 --> 01:07:00.199 you're anywhere near the area of the industry to. 1396 01:07:00.280 --> 01:07:00.800 Take a look. 1397 01:07:00.920 --> 01:07:03.760 There is quite good summary of like what the problems 1398 01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:07.239 are and how they're being solved or even start to 1399 01:07:07.280 --> 01:07:09.639 be tackled. And there's some really clever things in there, 1400 01:07:09.920 --> 01:07:12.920 like oh, you know, well, someone can tell our LM 1401 01:07:13.000 --> 01:07:14.880 to do something bad, and so like how do you 1402 01:07:14.880 --> 01:07:17.400 get around that. One of them I find really interesting 1403 01:07:17.519 --> 01:07:20.480 was oh well run it, run it like back through itself, 1404 01:07:20.519 --> 01:07:22.360 like get the result and then like parse it and 1405 01:07:22.400 --> 01:07:24.239 then like pass it back through the same LLM or 1406 01:07:24.280 --> 01:07:27.159 like another LLM and see if that one was validated. 1407 01:07:27.199 --> 01:07:31.199 And so using a graph of lms, get them to 1408 01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:33.280 sort of validate the response from a different one and 1409 01:07:33.320 --> 01:07:35.360 whether or not that's it's because like even if you 1410 01:07:35.360 --> 01:07:37.360 can get over the system prompt of the first one, 1411 01:07:37.480 --> 01:07:39.400 if the output of that has to still match the 1412 01:07:39.400 --> 01:07:41.679 second one that you're able to have better security over, 1413 01:07:41.800 --> 01:07:43.480 you can subvert attacks that way. 1414 01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:45.280 And the list goes on and on. There's I think 1415 01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:46.360 there's over fifty in there. 1416 01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:48.679 Cool, all right, Anthony, would you bring for a pick 1417 01:07:50.079 --> 01:07:50.440 turn there? 1418 01:07:50.519 --> 01:07:53.639 They're both related to AI and all that kind of stuff. 1419 01:07:53.719 --> 01:07:56.280 So the first one is Life three point zero by 1420 01:07:56.719 --> 01:08:00.239 Max teg Mark. So I listened to this maybe year 1421 01:08:00.239 --> 01:08:02.320 and a half maybe actually it was before chat GBT 1422 01:08:02.480 --> 01:08:05.440 came up. But it's effectively about becoming age of AI 1423 01:08:05.639 --> 01:08:09.440 and whatnot. But the first prologue is effectively it's a 1424 01:08:09.480 --> 01:08:11.920 story and it's worth reading for it alone. 1425 01:08:11.960 --> 01:08:12.960 It's it's called the. 1426 01:08:13.320 --> 01:08:17.359 A Mega Project, and it's effectively you know about an 1427 01:08:17.359 --> 01:08:20.800 AI that's been developed by company kept secret perhaps in 1428 01:08:20.880 --> 01:08:24.439 the Internet gets sentiment, gets it starts to build in 1429 01:08:24.479 --> 01:08:27.359 itself and get better and then effectively controls the world. 1430 01:08:27.399 --> 01:08:29.479 But it's not a not a bad story, it's a 1431 01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:32.800 great story. But it's actually coming to life right now 1432 01:08:32.920 --> 01:08:37.119 like the actual it's a prophetic look at what's happening 1433 01:08:37.439 --> 01:08:39.920 with chat, GBT and the LLM today. So that's that's 1434 01:08:39.960 --> 01:08:43.920 a big one that I would recommend. And the other one, 1435 01:08:43.960 --> 01:08:47.560 which is actually really cool, is more about that second 1436 01:08:47.600 --> 01:08:50.800 part that we're talking about, is called an Overseen by 1437 01:08:50.920 --> 01:08:55.039 James Lovelock. James Lovelock worked he only died a few 1438 01:08:55.079 --> 01:08:57.159 years ago. He was about one hundred and something, but 1439 01:08:57.439 --> 01:09:00.640 he's basically the guy that invented Michael Waves that sort 1440 01:09:00.640 --> 01:09:04.640 of stuff like that. Dude he worked in Area fifty 1441 01:09:04.680 --> 01:09:07.800 one and whatnot. But this book is all about the 1442 01:09:07.880 --> 01:09:13.319 coming age of HyperIntelligence and effectively goes AI to cyborgs 1443 01:09:13.319 --> 01:09:16.840 and what happens when cyborgs basically start to get as 1444 01:09:16.880 --> 01:09:19.600 smart as humans and effectively the end of the story 1445 01:09:19.680 --> 01:09:23.880 is do cyborgs need humans or do humans need cyborgs? 1446 01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:28.039 And then it kind of revolves around there. So that's 1447 01:09:28.079 --> 01:09:30.000 a really cool read. I think it's a short read 1448 01:09:30.039 --> 01:09:31.680 as well. You can get through it in about eight hours. 1449 01:09:32.159 --> 01:09:34.479 But that's one of my favorite autime books and overseen 1450 01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:35.760 by James Lovelock. 1451 01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:36.640 Right on line. 1452 01:09:36.960 --> 01:09:37.239 Cool. 1453 01:09:37.359 --> 01:09:41.600 So this week I'm here fishing for picks because I 1454 01:09:41.760 --> 01:09:46.960 was out. We went out this last weekend. I made 1455 01:09:47.000 --> 01:09:49.000 a long weekend out of it. We were out in 1456 01:09:49.000 --> 01:09:53.399 the mountains, new cell phone service, no not even any 1457 01:09:53.479 --> 01:09:57.000 radio stations. And I came back and I can't log 1458 01:09:57.079 --> 01:10:01.000 into my computer, my MacBook. I have no idea what 1459 01:10:01.039 --> 01:10:05.640 the password is. For years, it's been muscle memory, and 1460 01:10:05.680 --> 01:10:07.439 every once in a while I'll change it by just 1461 01:10:07.560 --> 01:10:09.000 changing the keystrokes a bit. 1462 01:10:09.119 --> 01:10:10.000 But it's not. 1463 01:10:11.640 --> 01:10:12.119 Anything. 1464 01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:14.039 It's not a word, it's not a phrase, it's not 1465 01:10:14.119 --> 01:10:17.800 anything written down. And it's also gone from my brain. 1466 01:10:18.079 --> 01:10:19.159 Like whatever brain. 1467 01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:24.600 Cells were responsible for holding that, they're freaking dead. So 1468 01:10:25.560 --> 01:10:29.600 I'm here fishing for picks. If anyone has any ideas, recommendations, 1469 01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:34.920 or strategies for storing those root credentials, I could use 1470 01:10:34.960 --> 01:10:37.159 a new one. So if you got any ideas, hit 1471 01:10:37.199 --> 01:10:39.439 me up on X or leave comments in the show. 1472 01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:40.399 How everyone do that? 1473 01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:43.039 I got a good one for you, kind of on 1474 01:10:43.079 --> 01:10:43.800 what you're using. 1475 01:10:44.560 --> 01:10:47.800 I've got a ubkey that I plug in that automatically 1476 01:10:47.800 --> 01:10:50.960 decrypts my hard drive and it's got its own pin, 1477 01:10:51.079 --> 01:10:53.720 but it's very short, and so I just plug that 1478 01:10:53.800 --> 01:10:55.880 in and leave it there until my keychain and pull 1479 01:10:55.920 --> 01:10:57.960 it out, so it doesn't matter, Like I don't ever 1480 01:10:58.039 --> 01:11:00.640 need to remember what password is there must I lost. 1481 01:11:01.319 --> 01:11:03.640 I lost the key chain as well, and if I forget, I'll, 1482 01:11:03.880 --> 01:11:06.319 you know, update it right now and validate. Like every year, 1483 01:11:06.359 --> 01:11:08.680 I have a reminder said do you still remember the password? 1484 01:11:08.920 --> 01:11:10.520 And tape it out? And if I don't, I'll set 1485 01:11:10.520 --> 01:11:11.039 a new one. 1486 01:11:11.600 --> 01:11:13.960 Isn't that funny about passwords like that? Like you said it? 1487 01:11:14.039 --> 01:11:16.720 Like I think if you ask anyone, most people, unless 1488 01:11:16.720 --> 01:11:17.560 they're really. 1489 01:11:17.319 --> 01:11:19.079 Security conscious and there's some real. 1490 01:11:19.039 --> 01:11:24.119 Security nuts out there, they will they will basically have 1491 01:11:24.199 --> 01:11:28.439 that same password that's muscle memory, but slightly older. Maybe 1492 01:11:28.439 --> 01:11:31.079 it's two numbers that they change every now and again. Maybe, 1493 01:11:31.239 --> 01:11:33.840 So I think majority of people do that because that's 1494 01:11:33.880 --> 01:11:34.439 just what we know. 1495 01:11:34.520 --> 01:11:37.520 It's easy. Don't feel bad about that. 1496 01:11:37.600 --> 01:11:40.359 But yeah, maybe maybe you know the fact that your 1497 01:11:40.399 --> 01:11:41.239 muscle memory is gone. 1498 01:11:41.239 --> 01:11:43.520 I don't know, get that check. 1499 01:11:43.600 --> 01:11:47.079 Maybe great, because that's the that's the big concerns like, Okay, 1500 01:11:47.199 --> 01:11:50.279 I forgot my password? What else have I forgotten that 1501 01:11:50.399 --> 01:11:51.600 I'm going to need something? 1502 01:11:54.159 --> 01:11:54.600 This girl? 1503 01:11:55.399 --> 01:11:58.640 Well, I mean the good news is well that unless 1504 01:11:58.640 --> 01:12:02.960 you actually damage those on the the pathways are still there. 1505 01:12:03.560 --> 01:12:04.760 You need to re trigger them. 1506 01:12:04.800 --> 01:12:08.199 But the connections in the neural net that's processing over 1507 01:12:08.199 --> 01:12:11.439 those neurons does degree, so you you can retrain it 1508 01:12:11.479 --> 01:12:15.239 by some going through whatever process you would normally go 1509 01:12:15.279 --> 01:12:17.039 through and try to get your key, your hands on 1510 01:12:17.079 --> 01:12:19.640 the right spot on the and may come back to you. 1511 01:12:20.640 --> 01:12:23.680 Just go to Alon. He's got like a little plugging 1512 01:12:24.079 --> 01:12:24.600 the head. Now. 1513 01:12:28.399 --> 01:12:31.760 I'm sure you guys have seen like the similar tweets 1514 01:12:31.760 --> 01:12:35.920 and stuff similar to where they'll tweets on at C 1515 01:12:35.960 --> 01:12:38.600 I a say, hey, I forgot this piece of information. 1516 01:12:38.720 --> 01:12:40.840 Can you guys send me your backup copy of it? 1517 01:12:43.119 --> 01:12:45.560 Tweet at CIA? Can you send me my passwords? 1518 01:12:45.960 --> 01:12:47.760 Someone who will do it? Cool? 1519 01:12:47.800 --> 01:12:49.600 All right, well, Anthony, thank you so much for being 1520 01:12:49.640 --> 01:12:50.039 on the show. 1521 01:12:50.159 --> 01:12:55.000 Just really fun. Actually, I really enjoyed the conversation. Love it, 1522 01:12:55.039 --> 01:12:56.039 love it. It's been good. 1523 01:12:56.079 --> 01:12:58.640 We've gone on different places and Warren, I reckon you 1524 01:12:58.680 --> 01:13:00.640 talked about ads. I reckon, you're gonna get ads about 1525 01:13:00.640 --> 01:13:01.800 black pudding now, so I just. 1526 01:13:01.960 --> 01:13:07.159 Get ready to right for sure there is so I 1527 01:13:07.239 --> 01:13:11.159 can say that Amazon seems to have improved their ad 1528 01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:15.199 their ad platform a lot, because I used to have 1529 01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:17.039 this running joke with a really good friend of mine 1530 01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:21.720 where we would find less than professional things for sale 1531 01:13:21.840 --> 01:13:25.399 on ad on Amazon and send each other links, you know, 1532 01:13:25.560 --> 01:13:27.560 masking them or whatever, just to get the other person 1533 01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:31.119 to click on them. And then every time they logged 1534 01:13:31.119 --> 01:13:33.039 into Amazon in front of their wife or something, there 1535 01:13:33.039 --> 01:13:35.359 would be these really odd ads and it was just 1536 01:13:35.439 --> 01:13:39.800 great fun. But then I had another friend who I 1537 01:13:39.840 --> 01:13:42.199 think it's been about two years ago now, he was 1538 01:13:42.239 --> 01:13:46.479 having open heart surgery and we were really concerned about him, 1539 01:13:47.199 --> 01:13:48.960 and so I wanted to make sure that he was 1540 01:13:49.199 --> 01:13:52.279 in a good mood before he went to the hospital 1541 01:13:52.319 --> 01:13:54.960 that morning. So I went on Amazon and I ordered 1542 01:13:54.960 --> 01:13:57.640 a blow up sex doll, and then I took it 1543 01:13:57.680 --> 01:13:59.319 around to all my friends, and you know, we all 1544 01:13:59.319 --> 01:14:02.000 wrote stupid stuff on it, and then I filled it 1545 01:14:02.039 --> 01:14:05.880 with helium and tied it to his mailbox so that 1546 01:14:05.920 --> 01:14:09.560 whenever he his wife took him to the hospital that morning, 1547 01:14:09.960 --> 01:14:12.439 there was a blow up sex doll flying above his 1548 01:14:12.560 --> 01:14:18.039 house and and so I was really worried about the 1549 01:14:18.039 --> 01:14:22.359 next time I logged into Amazon after that, like thinking, Okay, 1550 01:14:22.479 --> 01:14:23.520 what are they going to show me? 1551 01:14:23.920 --> 01:14:28.640 I didn't get anything, like not even like dolls. 1552 01:14:28.720 --> 01:14:30.960 Yeah, here's other sex dolls it might be interested in, 1553 01:14:31.079 --> 01:14:33.159 or here's things to go with this. None of that stuff. 1554 01:14:33.159 --> 01:14:36.159 I didn't get anything. So they appear have done done 1555 01:14:36.199 --> 01:14:36.840 some work there. 1556 01:14:37.319 --> 01:14:39.600 Yeah, well maybe is this one top of sex doll 1557 01:14:39.640 --> 01:14:41.680 on Amazon? And you boid it and that was it. 1558 01:14:41.680 --> 01:14:43.039 It was the only one they sell. 1559 01:14:43.800 --> 01:14:46.119 They sell, that's it you got. You got the premium model. 1560 01:14:46.119 --> 01:14:48.000 Right, that's our top of the line model. 1561 01:14:50.439 --> 01:14:55.760 Yeah anyway, yeah, awesome, all. 1562 01:14:55.720 --> 01:14:58.760 Right, cool, Thanks everyone, Anthony, thank you, Warren, thank you, 1563 01:14:59.079 --> 01:15:01.640 and to all nurse thank you for listening and supporting 1564 01:15:01.680 --> 01:15:02.039 the show. 1565 01:15:02.439 --> 01:15:03.680 And we'll see y'all next week.