WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.200 --> 00:00:03.839 Welcome to Farmer Talk Radio. This podcast is focused on 2 00:00:03.879 --> 00:00:06.919 building up a CMO team as your company evolves from 3 00:00:07.000 --> 00:00:10.000 the twenty twenty five Chief Medical Officer summ at three sixty. 4 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:14.800 For more information on the CMO Summit, editorials, podcasts, or webcasts, 5 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:17.960 please visit CMO three sixty dot org. Thank you and 6 00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:19.239 enjoy the podcast. 7 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:23.559 I you know, personally think that once you've assessed the 8 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:27.640 portfolio and pipeline, that this is actually one of the 9 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:32.840 more exciting tasks one has as especially an incoming CMO. 10 00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:37.520 And so you know, amongst. 11 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:40.039 The colleagues that are seated with me, there are decades 12 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:43.920 of experience in all different types of companies. 13 00:00:44.240 --> 00:00:46.920 So I'm really looking forward to hearing what people have 14 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:47.679 to say. 15 00:00:49.240 --> 00:00:54.560 To get us started. We'll do introductions. Well, we'll start 16 00:00:54.560 --> 00:00:58.200 with introductions. So I'm Harold Bernstein. I'm the president of 17 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:00.200 R and D and also act as the CMO at 18 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:06.439 Maze Therapeutics, where a mostly small molecule precision medicine company 19 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:11.920 using genetics to inform therapeutics. 20 00:01:12.760 --> 00:01:15.040 Hi, Harold, my name is Jing Morn. 21 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:18.879 I'm the chief Medical Officer of Scalaroc, which is an 22 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:24.519 unusual name. We are a late stage clinic late clinical 23 00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:28.120 stage company that really focused on TTF beta superfamily. We 24 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:32.519 have been fortunate recently had a positive phase re readout. 25 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:34.560 We filed our BLA and MAA. 26 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:37.599 I've been in the industry for two and a half decades, 27 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:38.879 just myself alone. 28 00:01:39.000 --> 00:01:44.200 That's how all val am raw Lima. I'm EVP of 29 00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:48.120 clinops for Inception Group. I've been there about three years, 30 00:01:48.799 --> 00:01:51.480 although the relevant experience that I bring to the table 31 00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:56.439 today is prior to that about twenty years in various 32 00:01:56.480 --> 00:01:59.640 levels of clinical operations, and really the last fifteen years 33 00:01:59.680 --> 00:02:02.280 as v EP of clinical ops for very very small 34 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:06.359 biotech in gene therapy and rare diseases. 35 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:11.560 Mostly I am Dan Bloomfield. I've been the CMO of 36 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:16.360 Anthos Therapeutics, which last Thursday became Anthos and the Artist Company. 37 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:20.120 I had a long background at Merk and they moved 38 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:22.479 about to take about six years ago. Seven years ago, 39 00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:25.680 two years at Carduran, and now at Anthos. We've been 40 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:29.159 developing a factor of eleven inhibitor and antibody four professional 41 00:02:29.199 --> 00:02:31.280 stroke and a treatment of DVTMP. 42 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:35.840 Good. Is it good evening or a good afternoon? I'm 43 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:38.360 not sure In any case, you're still awake, So this 44 00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:42.719 is delightful. Matt Frankel, chief Medical Officer of Kimo MAAB. 45 00:02:43.240 --> 00:02:47.599 We are developing a chemic well a monoclone antibody to 46 00:02:48.479 --> 00:02:53.400 a chemic kine CCL twenty four, instrumental in both inflammation 47 00:02:53.520 --> 00:02:58.520 and fibrosis, and we recently concluded our phase two open 48 00:02:58.599 --> 00:03:04.280 label successfully in patients with primary scrossing coloningitis and preparing 49 00:03:04.319 --> 00:03:05.680 for our phase three at this time. 50 00:03:07.039 --> 00:03:11.479 Great thank you so to get us started. 51 00:03:11.879 --> 00:03:14.800 I'm a firm believer in not bearing the headline, so 52 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:18.039 I thought we'd start off with the take home message 53 00:03:18.919 --> 00:03:22.719 and give everyone up here a chance to just provide 54 00:03:22.800 --> 00:03:29.199 one sort of key learning or take home that you've gleaned. 55 00:03:29.319 --> 00:03:32.080 And then, of course, I think what we recognized in 56 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:35.800 our pre conversations is that there's so many different circumstances 57 00:03:35.840 --> 00:03:39.960 that require different approaches, and we'll get into that. So 58 00:03:40.000 --> 00:03:44.800 I'll start off, and from my perspective, I think, especially 59 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:50.240 when you're coming in as the CMO again, after you've 60 00:03:50.280 --> 00:03:52.680 seen the scope of the pipeline and what are the 61 00:03:52.759 --> 00:03:58.039 near term deliverables, it's really to assess who you have 62 00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:03.719 on your team and make some decisions in fairly short 63 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:07.639 order about whether you have the right people that you're 64 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:10.080 working with, and that if you don't have the right 65 00:04:10.080 --> 00:04:13.039 people or capabilities, how are you going to fill that 66 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:16.639 and have a plan for you know, whether that's going 67 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:21.399 to take the strategy of hiring versus engaging with consultants. 68 00:04:22.480 --> 00:04:25.879 Okay, so maybe we'll start with Matt at the other end. 69 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:27.759 All right, So I'm going to actually start off with 70 00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:29.600 a question, because this, you know, we've got to make 71 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:33.560 this interactive. And the question is how many of you 72 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:35.480 have hired someone too early? 73 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:38.519 Okay? 74 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:41.680 Very few? How many of you have hired people too late? 75 00:04:43.240 --> 00:04:46.240 All right? A few more people. So my answer is 76 00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:51.319 it depends. And I think the point that you have 77 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:54.639 to realize, as you, as I've certainly realized, is that 78 00:04:54.800 --> 00:04:57.319 each of us are going to make decisions where we're 79 00:04:57.360 --> 00:05:00.800 either too early or too late. But each of us 80 00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.959 has to realize that there's something that drives us toward 81 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:06.720 that of making the decision and we have to go 82 00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:09.639 for it. So that's my point is at some point 83 00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:11.279 you're going to have to feel like you got to 84 00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:12.399 do it, and then you do it. 85 00:05:14.199 --> 00:05:17.439 So I'll follow on that and say that I having 86 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:19.639 just been through an experience where we're hired too late 87 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:23.720 that I think there's a cost of hiring too early, 88 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:26.319 but there's a much bigger cost of hiring too late. 89 00:05:26.800 --> 00:05:29.639 And need to think about where you're going and what's 90 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.759 go set you'll need as you move forward is critically 91 00:05:32.800 --> 00:05:36.639 important and for cmos, many cmos like myself who grew 92 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:39.240 up in pharma, don't know what you don't know about 93 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:41.439 getting things done because they're all done for you by 94 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:44.199 the armies of people out there, and not knowing those 95 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:46.879 things is really it really becomes problematic unless you have 96 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:49.160 folks around you to help mentor you and help you 97 00:05:49.240 --> 00:05:50.600 see the light. 98 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:54.920 So to jump on that, I'm often one of those 99 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:57.680 people who is really meant to make all of those 100 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.600 things happen and make it seem like I'm ashe did it. 101 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:06.600 And my driving piece of advice, especially for new cmos 102 00:06:06.600 --> 00:06:10.639 and very small companies, almost regardless where you are, if 103 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:12.920 they're hiring a CMO, that means they're really close to 104 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:15.639 getting to clinic. You should get yourself a lieutenant in 105 00:06:15.680 --> 00:06:20.480 clinops effectively immediately right at least one person. You don't 106 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:23.480 have to build a huge team, but get somebody who 107 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.079 knows how to translate between the science and you and 108 00:06:27.120 --> 00:06:29.279 then the vendors that you're going to be hiring somebody 109 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:33.199 who can handle the contracting and those negotiations, because the 110 00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:37.120 finer points of those details are incredibly, incredibly important, and 111 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:40.519 your jobs are too big. You shouldn't be in that 112 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:43.279 level of weeds. So find somebody who can do that 113 00:06:43.319 --> 00:06:45.639 for you and get a good lieutenant. If I can 114 00:06:45.839 --> 00:06:47.720 get you to do one thing, it's that one. 115 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:54.279 I agree with my colleagues. I've hired a lot of 116 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:55.959 people over the years. One of the things that I've 117 00:06:56.000 --> 00:07:02.680 really come to appreciate, deeply value more is phenotype. I 118 00:07:02.759 --> 00:07:07.759 actually hire much more based on phenotype than resume, because 119 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:11.240 the person with the right phenotype, who's a problem solver, 120 00:07:11.319 --> 00:07:14.360 who's got the critical thinking skills, is going to over 121 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:17.600 the long term outrun the person with the right resume, 122 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:20.519 with the impressive resume for that matter, but does not 123 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:23.040 have the belly, fire in the belly or the right 124 00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:23.920 culture a fit. 125 00:07:26.279 --> 00:07:26.600 Great. 126 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:29.560 So I think maybe first let's follow up on what 127 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:34.560 seemed to be, you know, one of the recurring themes, 128 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:37.879 and maybe we can dig in a little bit more 129 00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:42.160 on how do you know when it's time to actually 130 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:48.759 hire in a capability versus using consultants, which which is 131 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:52.600 another alternative. And we also just heard a big session 132 00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.319 on fractional capabilities. 133 00:07:59.680 --> 00:08:03.399 So I think as you're growing what we have found 134 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:06.360 success with in the past. In the small companies I've 135 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:11.279 been at, very often people are focused on roles, and 136 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:14.959 which you really should be, whether it's phenotype or skill set, 137 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:18.959 You've got to be thinking about sort of what is 138 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:22.279 your vendor strategy and then what skills does my team 139 00:08:22.439 --> 00:08:24.199 already have and what are we going to need in 140 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:27.519 the next six twelve eighteen months, right not the next 141 00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:29.759 three months, because a lot of what we do have 142 00:08:30.079 --> 00:08:35.159 twelve eighteen month runways, And so thinking of people less 143 00:08:35.159 --> 00:08:38.840 as roles. Maybe if you think high level of regulatory 144 00:08:38.919 --> 00:08:42.159 or clinops or safety or something like, you know, those 145 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:45.080 are buckets you can put people in. But in smaller 146 00:08:45.120 --> 00:08:46.840 companies you're gonna have to wear a lot of hats, 147 00:08:46.879 --> 00:08:51.519 and so really looking at those skill fits and then 148 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:55.639 I do think phenotype and curiosity and that roll up 149 00:08:55.679 --> 00:09:01.720 your sleeveness is tantamount as paramount for very small companies. 150 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:05.360 And so I think if I come back, it's skill 151 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:08.919 sets and fit are way way more important than resume 152 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:11.879 and roll that that'd be my tagline. 153 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:15.879 Then if I could add to what you said, It's 154 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:17.799 like when you're building a team, it's like a chess 155 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:20.720 board in front of you. You start with the goals, 156 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:23.279 like what are you trying to accomplish next year, next 157 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:25.879 two years? And then you look at all the gaps 158 00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:28.440 you have. What do you have already? Hopefully it's not 159 00:09:28.519 --> 00:09:32.799 just you. It's really hard when you're just starting out 160 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:35.639 with end of one. So look at the gaps and 161 00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:38.600 then think about what gaps are near term gaps, what 162 00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:41.399 gaps are long term gaps, and then think about that 163 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:44.799 sort of the priority of these gaps and time sensitiveness 164 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:47.360 of those gaps. And then to Herold's point, which I think, 165 00:09:47.399 --> 00:09:51.519 you ask yourself the question can you hire someone to 166 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:55.120 do you want to hire someone instead of outsourcing that? 167 00:09:55.480 --> 00:09:58.360 And there are pros and cons to each, and then 168 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:00.879 it's like when do you hire those people? And then 169 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.039 you also take a step back and look at the 170 00:10:04.039 --> 00:10:06.279 It's a chessboard, so you don't just look at individuals. 171 00:10:06.320 --> 00:10:10.159 You look at how each individual interact with each other. 172 00:10:10.440 --> 00:10:13.440 Because it's so important to also look at it from 173 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:16.840 a governance model point of view, and how information flows 174 00:10:16.840 --> 00:10:20.360 from one person to another, how decisions are made, and 175 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:24.320 how each individuals interupt with one another. This way, you're 176 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:26.720 actually looking at it from a higher level instead of 177 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:29.240 just hiring for that individual. So to the point that 178 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:33.000 you made about capabilities, it's such an important concept. 179 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:38.000 So fte versus a contractor, Dan, do you have any thoughts. 180 00:10:38.759 --> 00:10:42.440 We ran Anthos pretty lean. We were eight or ten people, 181 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:46.559 kind of getting through phase two and had an awful 182 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:49.519 lot of contractors and consultants working for us, and we 183 00:10:49.519 --> 00:10:51.519 were very fortunate that the folks who work for us 184 00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:53.799 stayed with us pretty much for the entire six years. 185 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:57.759 We had a very devoted group of people. But what 186 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:02.559 we found was as as things get harder, the work 187 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:07.399 becomes a higher risk, higher cost, you begin to realize 188 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:10.320 that there are certain roles that you need to count 189 00:11:10.360 --> 00:11:13.440 on that are critical for the business, and it's really 190 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.679 important to recognize those roles and then fill those with 191 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:19.240 people who are part of your team as opposed to 192 00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:22.519 people external. But I did find that we had a 193 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:25.480 lot of support from companies like SSI and from Halleran 194 00:11:25.960 --> 00:11:29.279 over the years, which really were helpful because they first 195 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:31.679 helped us see the gaps that were coming up, realized 196 00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:33.840 that we didn't build a certain capability we probably should 197 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:36.200 have built. But then they're able to fill in in 198 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:38.960 the short term as we kind of hired behind that. 199 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:42.919 But I think it becomes you kind of recognize when 200 00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:45.480 you're too far behind. You're not getting the oversight you want, 201 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:48.120 Your roos aren't getting the kind of oversight you need 202 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:51.000 them to have. You're relying haveing around people who could 203 00:11:51.000 --> 00:11:54.960 potentially say goodbye the next day. Luckily for us it 204 00:11:54.960 --> 00:11:57.840 didn't happen. But when you think about the risk that 205 00:11:57.879 --> 00:12:01.039 would cause. If you're head of safety, a consultant leaves, 206 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:03.320 that's not a great place to be. If you're a 207 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:05.720 head of clops leaves, you're dead in the water. So 208 00:12:05.799 --> 00:12:07.320 you really have to have people who have skin in 209 00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.799 the game and are going to be with you throughout 210 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:11.320 the development. 211 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:17.240 I'm going to be slightly contradictory and highlight that whether 212 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:20.879 someone is a full time employee or a consultant, they 213 00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:24.559 both can leave tomorrow, and so you have to recognize that. 214 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:29.759 You may think that there's some contractual agreement, but there 215 00:12:29.799 --> 00:12:33.159 really isn't between either one. So don't get too heavily 216 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:38.679 weighed on that based on personal experience there. The one 217 00:12:38.720 --> 00:12:43.720 thing I would add is to be opportunistic associated with 218 00:12:43.759 --> 00:12:46.879 it because there will be certain instances where and I'll 219 00:12:46.879 --> 00:12:51.200 give you an example from my past is we had 220 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:55.879 someone a former colleague who was very good at safety, 221 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:58.960 and I knew that she could do the job, and 222 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:01.840 it seemed like a perfect opportunity to bring that person in, 223 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:04.799 build out that team, carve it out, and then felt 224 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.200 very good about and knowledgeable and comfortable and confident that 225 00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:10.679 we were going to do a great job in that regard, 226 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:13.399 and that we had a good rapport initially, so that 227 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.279 was going to keep going. So be cognizant that there 228 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:19.919 may be situations where, based on your extensive background and 229 00:13:19.960 --> 00:13:23.159 your relationships, you can find those individuals and go, Wow, 230 00:13:23.200 --> 00:13:25.279 this person is out of a job. Let's see if 231 00:13:25.279 --> 00:13:27.080 we can scoop him or her up at that moment. 232 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.000 I can stay. One other thing, which is that it 233 00:13:31.080 --> 00:13:34.799 takes time to hire really good, talented people, and so 234 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:38.159 when you think you need someone now, you're six months 235 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:41.200 behind for many roles. And that's where people come in 236 00:13:41.200 --> 00:13:43.360 as consultants or contracts going to help you bridge that 237 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:46.720 but you really have to recognize where do our need 238 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:50.080 to have someone full time role do I need and 239 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:52.320 then back off from that and realize I'd be a 240 00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:54.759 going now and maybe you hire too early, but if 241 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:56.480 you're hiring good quality of people and you know you're 242 00:13:56.480 --> 00:13:59.279 going to grow into that role, it's probably okay. But 243 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:02.159 there is help in between helping your bridge that bridge 244 00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:02.600 that period. 245 00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:09.240 So I want to go back to gingior comment on phenotype. 246 00:14:09.360 --> 00:14:12.519 Maybe I'm a geneticist, so it struck a chord, but 247 00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:17.679 I think you know, we've all encountered that. I think 248 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:19.639 it'd be great to hear from people. 249 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:22.840 Like what is that phenotype? How do you define it? 250 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.159 And this is sort of more like, you know, not 251 00:14:26.240 --> 00:14:30.840 necessarily capability or skill specific, but who do you need 252 00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:34.919 in a company on a team, And maybe it's based 253 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:36.600 on where the company. 254 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:39.399 Is should I start. 255 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:43.639 So I've over the years have had a lot of 256 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:49.080 luck hiring people based on phenotype because you could have 257 00:14:49.120 --> 00:14:51.840 twenty five years of experience doing bad things. 258 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:54.519 That doesn't make you any better, right. 259 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:57.840 I think that I also don't hire based on knowledge 260 00:14:58.120 --> 00:15:02.039 because nowadays we'll live in the digital world. Everything is 261 00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:05.960 at your fingertips, So when I think about phenotype, even 262 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:11.080 technical capabilities. I'm looking for that someone who actually is 263 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:15.159 not just the person that at a meeting that spews 264 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:20.919 out clever comments. There are plenty of those, and I 265 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:27.399 can't execute on clever drops of brilliance. What I am 266 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:30.120 looking for is someone who can actually string that all together. 267 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:35.120 That person doesn't necessarily is not necessarily someone who speaks 268 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:37.759 first or speaks a lot. That person is maybe a 269 00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:41.799 really good listener that strings everything together. The ability to 270 00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:46.320 critically think about issue and that really synthesize the issue 271 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:50.960 and turn that into a well distilled plan. That skill 272 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.919 is so rare, it's what I really really prize. 273 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:55.720 So that's one. 274 00:15:55.759 --> 00:15:59.039 That's the technical skill sets. The cultural side is someone 275 00:15:59.039 --> 00:16:02.960 who's like positive. You know how people you hire someone 276 00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:05.519 they can drain your energy, and then you can also 277 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:07.279 hire someone you want to hang out with that person 278 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:10.759 all the time because they are fun, they're positive, they 279 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:13.840 lighten up your day. So because you spend a lot 280 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:16.200 of time with these people. So those are two things 281 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:17.039 I'm looking for. 282 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:25.000 Yeah, I come back to curiosity a lot. I will 283 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:32.320 ask people weird questions during interviews, but or twists of 284 00:16:32.360 --> 00:16:35.080 the interview questions that you might be used. You know 285 00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.720 that that twenty years ago, everybody trained for it, right, 286 00:16:38.080 --> 00:16:39.480 what do you want to do in five years? But 287 00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:41.360 I won't ask it that way. I'll ask things like 288 00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:46.720 picture yourself in five years, and how does this role 289 00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:48.879 going to help you? Or how do you want to 290 00:16:48.919 --> 00:16:52.679 be mentored to that have you thought about the difference 291 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:54.600 the delta between who you want to be and what 292 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:58.159 you are now? Because I want people to think of themselves. 293 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.279 I want to I want to understand that they're being 294 00:17:00.320 --> 00:17:04.359 self reflective, that they're curious and they want to engage 295 00:17:04.519 --> 00:17:06.279 with what it is that we're doing, and that they 296 00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:09.799 want it, that they kind of see this as a 297 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.680 true opportunity and not just a job. And so I 298 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:15.079 will ask questions like that because I am trying to 299 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:21.559 dig at I will describe it consistently as curiosity. And 300 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:24.799 then I will also ask always, I always ask every 301 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:28.640 single person about mentors, like what kind of mentors did 302 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:31.440 they have? Because I want to know who do they 303 00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:33.920 see as having shaped their life? And I will always 304 00:17:34.000 --> 00:17:39.279 then follow up that question with a question around failure 305 00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:41.319 and how do they engage with failure? 306 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:43.079 Because those are all. 307 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:46.799 Things that will be problematic in the clinical operations space, 308 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:49.240 you will have mentors all around you, some of the 309 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.039 smartest people in the world. You're going to see in biotech. 310 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:55.160 Things are going to go wrong and you're going to 311 00:17:55.279 --> 00:17:58.079 need to solve them. And I want to understand people's 312 00:17:58.119 --> 00:18:02.400 ability to do those things all of that thread and 313 00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:04.599 not you know, crumble in the face of that. And 314 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.000 so that's that's what I'm looking for, and that's how 315 00:18:08.039 --> 00:18:09.559 I dig at it. 316 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:13.039 But might have a similar set of questions I asked 317 00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:15.880 When I interview folks, I always ask them about about 318 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.000 a really challenging problem that didn't go the way they 319 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:20.000 wanted and what happened, how did it have happened, how'd 320 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:23.160 you recover from it? I find that to be useful. 321 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:26.119 People sometimes can't think of one, which is always a 322 00:18:26.119 --> 00:18:29.799 red flag. But people should be able to share something 323 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:32.319 that they were challenged by, and you can hear how 324 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:34.400 they approached it, how eager they were, how curious they 325 00:18:34.400 --> 00:18:37.000 were why it went wrong. Maybe went wrong for a 326 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:39.039 good reason. So I think that's an important question. And 327 00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:41.359 I also ask people, you know, for them, what's a 328 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:43.079 great day for you and what's a bad day for you? 329 00:18:43.319 --> 00:18:45.640 And you learn a lot about what motivates people and 330 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.839 what really is is a problem for them. So sometimes 331 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.079 what they hate is what your job is going to 332 00:18:51.119 --> 00:18:52.559 offer them. And so it's good to know that ahead 333 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:52.839 of time. 334 00:18:56.519 --> 00:18:59.759 You know, I'm going to highlight what Jing mentioned earlier, 335 00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:02.720 which is and I put it in the category of 336 00:19:03.160 --> 00:19:07.759 can do spirit And it's the idea that people are 337 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.799 going to have different roles, but are they enthusiastic and 338 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.119 are they willing to roll up their sleeves and have 339 00:19:15.200 --> 00:19:20.039 that positive perspective that they're doing something because they are 340 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.119 culturally fitting with the organization and it's going to make sense. 341 00:19:23.480 --> 00:19:26.640 That's what really is sort of the secret sauce, if 342 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:28.480 I can use that term. 343 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:29.319 Thanks well, I. 344 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:33.720 Agree with everything everyone's put out. And I guess the 345 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:38.480 one other thing I might add is I try and 346 00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:42.559 assess or look for people who I mean, the scientific 347 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:45.880 version is the system as biologists, but in this case 348 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:49.960 someone who has the capability to be an enterprise level thinker. 349 00:19:51.119 --> 00:19:55.200 And what struck me in the previous discussion is the 350 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:59.960 CEO who said, you know, you may not realize all 351 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:02.440 of the things in front of the CEO and why 352 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:04.279 decisions are made. 353 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:05.240 And I think. 354 00:20:05.000 --> 00:20:11.319 Also as the cmo uh, you know individuals. You know, 355 00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:14.160 early in my career, I had someone say to me, Hey, 356 00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:17.119 I'm responsible for eight hundred people and all their wants 357 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:19.640 and desires, So you're just going to have to live 358 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:20.559 with my decision. 359 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:22.720 And I think, you know, you want to. 360 00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:25.240 You want to have a sense of the maturity level 361 00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.160 and can can someone think like that? You want them 362 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:32.279 to sort of advocate for a position and back it 363 00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:34.200 up with data, but you want to know that someone 364 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:37.640 can walk away from the conversation and live with what 365 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:38.640 the decision is. 366 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:40.559 And and maybe that's a little bit of. 367 00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:45.440 A little bit of what Dan was saying, which is 368 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.440 someone who talks about something that didn't go right but 369 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.319 then can articulate, but I understand why the decision was made, 370 00:20:53.839 --> 00:20:57.200 this was why, And you know, maybe I learned from that. 371 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:03.319 So maybe one thing Elso entered to pick up. And 372 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:05.839 I think we were leading into this before and that 373 00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:12.720 is so I've been I've worked in both the Boston 374 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:16.319 and the San Francisco ecosystems where we joke around that 375 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:21.160 there's the shiny penny mentality where you know, people have 376 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:23.599 a very short view of how long they're going to 377 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:28.000 be someplace And one thing that I think about sometimes 378 00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:30.200 is like, when is it the right time to think 379 00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:34.599 about to like put business continuity into your plan as 380 00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:37.440 you're hiring, and how do you need to think about that? 381 00:21:37.480 --> 00:21:40.680 Because you finally settle on like your dream team if 382 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:44.359 you can get there, and then someone decides they're leaving, 383 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:48.200 So when do you start thinking about business continuity? 384 00:21:48.279 --> 00:21:49.960 Maybe, Dan, do you want to start? 385 00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:52.119 Yeah? 386 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:55.599 I think it becomes important as you hire more senior people. 387 00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:58.079 And one of the things we haven't talked about is 388 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:01.640 what happens when you're company evolving and as a CMO, 389 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:05.319 you're suddenly pulled out for externality facing things and you 390 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.960 now can't really keep an eye on your studies. And 391 00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:12.240 so that depends upon the people who are running your studies, 392 00:22:12.240 --> 00:22:15.559 the kind of each project leader, and those are the 393 00:22:15.559 --> 00:22:17.799 people that you want to make sure that they recognize 394 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:19.839 the challenge that they'll be facing when you hire them, 395 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:22.079 that they're excited about that and they're not looking for 396 00:22:22.119 --> 00:22:24.319 a bigger job. I've might try to have someone tell 397 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:27.000 me that they want to run a portfolio, then run 398 00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:29.039 a program, because I don't have a portfolio. I have 399 00:22:29.079 --> 00:22:32.279 a program for them, And so that's I think knowing 400 00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:34.880 that those people that the person you're going to hire 401 00:22:35.119 --> 00:22:38.720