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Test your luck 30 00:01:24.959 --> 00:01:27.480 in the shadowy world at the Godfather slot. 31 00:01:27.719 --> 00:01:30.519 Someday I will call upon you to do a service 32 00:01:30.560 --> 00:01:30.840 for me. 33 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:33.760 Play the Godfather now at champacasino dot com. 34 00:01:33.799 --> 00:01:36.879 Welcome to the Family vdW group. No perch is necessary 35 00:01:36.879 --> 00:01:38.640 if we we're brimitted by loss he terms and conditions. 36 00:01:38.640 --> 00:01:39.200 Eighteen plus. 37 00:01:48.719 --> 00:01:52.159 You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking 38 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:55.280 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 39 00:01:55.319 --> 00:02:02.640 written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Knights BTK. Every 40 00:02:02.680 --> 00:02:06.319 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 41 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:10.919 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 42 00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:24.240 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening. 43 00:02:25.240 --> 00:02:28.400 New York Times best selling crime authors Caitlin Rother and 44 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:31.800 Greg Olsen have joined up to release this compilation of 45 00:02:31.840 --> 00:02:37.319 incredible murder cases from Florida, South Carolina, and Georgia. In Florida, 46 00:02:37.360 --> 00:02:40.520 a former flight attendant murders her multi millionaire boyfriend of 47 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.120 eighteen years using a gun, a knife, a hammer, and 48 00:02:44.199 --> 00:02:47.759 possibly poisoned gin, claiming it was abusive for years, and 49 00:02:47.800 --> 00:02:51.039 put a loaded gun to her head. A woman with 50 00:02:51.120 --> 00:02:54.719 a history of violent drug addicted boyfriends kills her latest 51 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:58.159 lover after only a few weeks together, alleging that he 52 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:02.439 forced a gun into her mouth in a drug induced rage. 53 00:03:02.479 --> 00:03:05.240 A fifteen year old girl falls in love and wants 54 00:03:05.280 --> 00:03:08.840 to have a baby with a boyfriend who is four 55 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:12.159 years older. Her mother, who wants to end the relationship, 56 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:15.680 ends up dead after being stabbed, choked, and injected with 57 00:03:15.759 --> 00:03:19.560 a syringe loaded with bleach. A sixteen year old girl 58 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:22.280 and her twenty year old boyfriend conspired a fatally bludgeon 59 00:03:22.319 --> 00:03:26.840 her disapproving father with a baseball bat. In Georgia, a 60 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:29.840 socialite wife of a multi millionaire is fatally shot by 61 00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:32.240 a flower delivery man on the day of a key divorce. 62 00:03:32.280 --> 00:03:36.039 Hearing a crooked businessman trying to go straight a shot 63 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:38.840 in his driveway by a hitman wearing a ski mask 64 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:43.199 and camouflage gear. A contract for higher murder advertised in 65 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:47.400 Soldier of Fortune magazine. A Gulf wer veteran and father 66 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:49.639 of three is kidnapped, beaten, and stabbed by the lover 67 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:52.319 of his on and off again wife who wants to 68 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:56.280 collect life insurance metafits at pay off her house. In 69 00:03:56.360 --> 00:03:59.280 South Carolina, a woman goes to the electric chair after 70 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:04.000 a vengeful over a dead calf turns fatal. The state's 71 00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.000 most prolific serial killer manages to kill a fellow prisoner 72 00:04:07.039 --> 00:04:11.080 while on death row, and a young white man tries 73 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:14.080 to incite a race war by fatally shooting nine African 74 00:04:14.080 --> 00:04:18.240 Americans during Bible study in a historic church. The book 75 00:04:18.240 --> 00:04:21.120 that we're featuring this evening is Love Gone Wrong from 76 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:24.639 the Notorious USA Series with my special guest journalist and 77 00:04:24.680 --> 00:04:27.800 author Caitlyn Rother. Welcome back to the program, and thank 78 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:30.879 you very much for agreeing to this interview. Caitlyn Rother. 79 00:04:32.079 --> 00:04:33.360 Hi, it's good to be here. 80 00:04:34.839 --> 00:04:38.279 Thank you very much. Good to have you back, and 81 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:43.959 some more amazing. It's been a few, it's been quite 82 00:04:43.959 --> 00:04:46.480 a few. It's been quite a few. And you've been back. 83 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:48.600 You've been here right from the very beginning, back in 84 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:49.519 twenty and ten. 85 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:51.160 Still there you go. 86 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:57.759 Let's get to this story because we've got a lot 87 00:04:57.800 --> 00:05:00.920 to cover. Yeah, and also want to do an update 88 00:05:01.000 --> 00:05:04.839 on the Dead Reckoning the new edition. So we've got 89 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:09.480 a lot to cover. Why do this book? Tell us 90 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:13.360 a pardon me? Tell us about the Notorious USA series first, 91 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.920 and then tell us what was the criteria or how 92 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:19.600 did you choose these stories? What was sort of the 93 00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:23.639 theme you had to do? Love Gone Wrong? Tell us 94 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:26.519 a little about the Notorious USA series, and then the 95 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:27.920 impetus for Love Gone Wrong? 96 00:05:28.519 --> 00:05:33.480 Okay, the series was launched by Greg Olsen, who's a 97 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:36.680 good friend and a fellow true crime author, best selling author, 98 00:05:37.399 --> 00:05:42.199 and he basically had some other authors do It's basically 99 00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:47.439 a state by state look different, you know, notorious murder 100 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:51.279 cases and they could be old, they could be new. Basically, 101 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:53.519 we just I get that freedom to do whatever I want. 102 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.720 So some authors do a big number of cases and 103 00:05:57.759 --> 00:05:59.920 just write a little bit about each one. But I mean, 104 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:02.040 I don't know how to write short. It's not in 105 00:06:02.079 --> 00:06:05.519 my blood. That's why I quit new papers. I wanted 106 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:08.519 to work on a shorter number of stories and kind 107 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:10.040 of go a little bit more in depth. So they're 108 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.120 each kind of you know what we call shorts anywhere 109 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:16.759 from mind range from I don't know, eighteen thousand to 110 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:21.240 twenty three thousand words each state by state. And you know, 111 00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:25.439 I started out with South Carolina, the one about the 112 00:06:25.439 --> 00:06:29.319 dead calf. The Complicated Woman is the title of that one. 113 00:06:29.399 --> 00:06:32.360 And I started looking for historic cases because I've never 114 00:06:32.399 --> 00:06:34.240 done that before, and I thought, well, that would be cool, 115 00:06:34.279 --> 00:06:37.160 that would be fun. I've always been kind of forced 116 00:06:37.199 --> 00:06:40.199 into the criteria of the publishers these days. They want 117 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.839 these brand new cases that are on TV. I wanted 118 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:46.839 to do something different, so my criteria. No one set 119 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.639 this for me. I basically just looked what was to 120 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:53.759 what was interesting for me and something different. And because 121 00:06:54.040 --> 00:06:57.079 I've been having to write stories that everybody's kind of 122 00:06:57.079 --> 00:06:59.959 heard about already at least, you know, on the news 123 00:07:00.120 --> 00:07:02.560 or whatever, I wanted to pick some that were a 124 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:05.879 little bit more obscure. So I ended up picking some 125 00:07:06.120 --> 00:07:08.759 notorious cases in South Carolina. There were three. It actually 126 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:10.399 one of them was in the news and it's still 127 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.839 in storm roof, the one about the guy who killed 128 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:17.279 the people in the church. But I picked two older cases. 129 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:22.360 One Sue Lowe, who was the first woman in South 130 00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:27.439 Carolina to be electrocuted in the and so to get 131 00:07:27.480 --> 00:07:31.000 the death penalty. And then a guy, uh pee Wee Gaskins, 132 00:07:31.040 --> 00:07:34.439 who was also got the death penalty, but he was 133 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:36.639 one of these guys who claimed to have killed you know, 134 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:39.199 eighty to one hundred people, but you know, most people 135 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:41.800 who knew him thought he was exaggerating. And there were 136 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:44.879 fourteen murders, so I was kind of looking for, you know, 137 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:49.199 the worst but also unique. So and then in some 138 00:07:49.240 --> 00:07:51.399 of the other some of the other ones, which well, 139 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:55.040 I'm sure we'll get to later, but kind of, you know, 140 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:57.560 I wanted to do a mix, so state by state. 141 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:01.560 In Florida, I found two pairs of where we had 142 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:07.720 similar circumstances but different outcomes, very different outcomes, and so 143 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:10.959 there were two pairs of those. And then in Georgia, 144 00:08:12.839 --> 00:08:15.839 there was an FBI source that I had who I 145 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:19.680 was working with a little bit on some documents and 146 00:08:19.759 --> 00:08:23.560 some interesting backstory and ended up putting together some stuff 147 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:27.079 in Georgia. So it really there wasn't any one specific thing, 148 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:28.680 but when I had to title it, I had to 149 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.639 look for something. And the theme that I saw not 150 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:34.159 every single case I picked, but most of them had 151 00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:36.159 to do with what I thought was love gone wrong, 152 00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:40.840 and that is mothers kids killing their parents, which is 153 00:08:41.120 --> 00:08:47.879 a pretty twisted version of that boyfriends girlfriends killing their boyfriends, 154 00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:51.840 and you know, and in many cases, you know, I 155 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:55.600 find that it's more interesting for many of our readers 156 00:08:55.720 --> 00:08:58.279 of the true crime genre, who are women, to read 157 00:08:58.320 --> 00:09:02.000 about women killing people. So I always look for an 158 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:07.720 interesting female character. So anyway, those are some of my criteria. 159 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:11.960 Now let's get right to one of the stories, because 160 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:14.440 I said, we've got so much to cover, and we're 161 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:16.080 just going to be able to touch on a few 162 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.759 of these stories and not go so in depth. But 163 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:22.559 they're just incredible stories. So as you talk about some 164 00:09:22.679 --> 00:09:27.679 amazing female characters, let's talk about Melissa Melissa Webb, who's 165 00:09:27.679 --> 00:09:31.000 twenty eight years old in this story, and Brian Sorndino 166 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.519 and he's thirty years old, and they're Fort Myers, Florida. 167 00:09:34.639 --> 00:09:39.960 So these people are addicted to oxy codone and they 168 00:09:40.000 --> 00:09:41.679 don't got a lot of money. They're split up, but 169 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:45.440 they're still living together. And this is August twenty eleven, 170 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:49.360 So tell us a little bit about their circumstances and 171 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:51.480 who is Melissa Webb? 172 00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:56.360 To start, well, this case was the last one that 173 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.960 I did in this state in Florida, so I act 174 00:10:00.000 --> 00:10:03.440 actually had planned to do a short version of this case. 175 00:10:03.799 --> 00:10:04.960 I thought it was going to be one of the 176 00:10:04.960 --> 00:10:08.200 shorter ones of the of the four that I picked 177 00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:11.120 for Florida. And as I got more and more into 178 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:16.200 this case, I really felt like there was something wrong here. 179 00:10:17.840 --> 00:10:20.080 It's one of those cases it's hard to prove. It's 180 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:23.399 one of those things where she's already a felon for stealing, 181 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.159 she's a drug user. You know, they don't. They don't 182 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:32.759 seem like very sympathetic characters. The the the boyfriend quote 183 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:35.399 unquote boyfriend. They'd hardly known each other for very long. 184 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:36.039 You know. 185 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:38.240 On the face of it, it wasn't that interesting a case. 186 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:39.440 But the more I got into it, the more I 187 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:43.320 learned about Melissa, the more I realize our justice system 188 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.840 is kind of screwed up at times. And that's one 189 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:48.639 of the things that I'll you know, that draws me 190 00:10:48.679 --> 00:10:50.840 to some of the cases I write about where I 191 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.200 feel like there's been something that people have not gotten 192 00:10:54.399 --> 00:10:57.919 a specific you know, a particularly fair chance in the system. 193 00:10:58.039 --> 00:11:01.799 So the reason I say that is it turns out 194 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:05.559 she is Native American, and there are some statistics from 195 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:10.200 the Department of Justice that show that Native American women 196 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:13.279 are two and a half times more likely to be 197 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:19.799 raped than women of other ethnicities, and I just thought, wow, 198 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.919 that's pretty interesting. And in her background, as it turns out, 199 00:11:23.080 --> 00:11:25.759 I interviewed her mother, and her mother said, you know, 200 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.320 I don't agree with the choices she's made in her life. 201 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:30.720 You know, she is she does is addicted to drugs. 202 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:32.879 She's you know, I don't allow her to live with 203 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:36.080 me when she's doing drugs. But she's she's not a killer. 204 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:39.960 And so the more I learned about her, she had 205 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:43.480 been raped a number of times by these boyfriends that 206 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:46.440 she'd had, you know or not. Some of them were boyfriends, 207 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:50.200 some of them were strangers, and you know, she just 208 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:52.919 sounded like she just had a rough time of it 209 00:11:53.039 --> 00:11:57.320 from the get go. And you know, it just the 210 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:00.000 whole story as it played out, it's like she's already 211 00:12:00.080 --> 00:12:03.639 in the system, she's already a fellon, and so she basically, 212 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:06.440 the way the laws are written, she didn't really have 213 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:10.159 a chance, I thought, So she was defending herself. This 214 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:14.240 is her story. Her story is that this guy who 215 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:19.720 also was a drug addict and his family was kind 216 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:21.879 of tied in with the law enforcement in town, even 217 00:12:21.879 --> 00:12:24.840 though he was a drug addict. His stepfather was worked 218 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:29.000 for the sheriff's department, and as a small town and 219 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:31.399 so anyway, it was just sort of the way that 220 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:34.000 it went. There was evidence that didn't really get to 221 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:37.159 be presented to the jury about what happened in the room, 222 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:41.480 and there were guns and when she got back from 223 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:45.600 being out and he was drugged, but she claims that 224 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:48.679 he was paranoid and mixed all these different kinds of 225 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:52.320 drugs cocaine and steroids in addition to the oxy cotone, 226 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:55.279 and was in a rage and they'd been fighting, and 227 00:12:55.320 --> 00:12:58.320 that he threatened her and said he was going to 228 00:12:58.440 --> 00:13:00.399 kill her and came after her, fired at a shot 229 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:02.679 into the ceiling and then put the gun in her mouth, 230 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:05.679 and so she claims, you know, she was just trying 231 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.360 to defend herself, and she saw there was another gun downstairs, 232 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.240 which is a shotgun. So even when she got the 233 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:14.440 gun away from him, he was going downstairs, she thought 234 00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:16.720 to get the shotgun and which is no match for 235 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:21.480 the small gun. And anyway, and what ended up happening 236 00:13:21.559 --> 00:13:24.679 is there was evidence in the apartment to prove some 237 00:13:24.759 --> 00:13:28.720 of this, but the sheriff's department didn't collect it. The 238 00:13:28.759 --> 00:13:31.200 defense hired an expert. The expert was not allowed to 239 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:34.000 present any of this information anyway. I ended up making 240 00:13:34.039 --> 00:13:36.039 it about three times longer than what I was going 241 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:38.679 to because I just really felt like I just felt 242 00:13:38.679 --> 00:13:41.559 like some of this evidence should be seen by somebody 243 00:13:41.679 --> 00:13:44.399 because it was you know, there was no media coverage 244 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:48.559 of this case at all, So I just felt strongly 245 00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:50.840 that this case just at least needed to have somebody 246 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:52.519 look at it in a more objective way. 247 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:55.919 Well, let's talk a little bit more about this case, 248 00:13:55.960 --> 00:13:58.600 because the audience won't have any clue of the story 249 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:02.559 that we're talking about. And what I want you to 250 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:05.080 go What wasn't clear to me, and I think it 251 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.440 obviously wasn't raised in the defense properly, is or wasn't 252 00:14:09.480 --> 00:14:12.480 investigated properly. Is the contention that she had that she 253 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.240 fired a shot in this self defense. You think that 254 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:17.519 must be a crucial thing to be able to investigate it. 255 00:14:17.960 --> 00:14:20.720 And you say, the police service in this book say 256 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.519 they didn't find any bullet hole whatsoever to back up 257 00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:26.480 her assertion, and that's what she did in this cell. 258 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.480 Well, I think I think what the shot he shired, 259 00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:32.639 he fired a shot that went into the ceiling before 260 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.159 he stuck it in her mouth and then she fired 261 00:14:35.159 --> 00:14:37.559 two shots into him, and one of the shots that 262 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:40.360 went through his skull. They never found it in the 263 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:42.360 wall when it should have been found because it went 264 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:46.440 through and through, so there were two points. So the 265 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:50.519 there was they never really investigated the hole in the ceiling. 266 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:53.879 The defense went back removed that portion of the ceiling. 267 00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:57.840 It was there was a water stain, so it clearly 268 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:01.200 was leaking, so there clearly was a hole there, but 269 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:06.399 the prosecution really never was never really investigated that, and 270 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:10.320 the judge wouldn't let it in. So the defense hires 271 00:15:10.320 --> 00:15:13.399 this expert to basically look at all this take the 272 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:18.000 ceiling apart, wrote a big report through some pages and 273 00:15:18.159 --> 00:15:19.879 was not allowed to show it to the jury, was 274 00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:22.679 not allowed to testify. And so to me, that just 275 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:24.600 didn't seem right. That didn't seem right. 276 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.519 But to bolster the prosecution's case, And it does bolster 277 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:34.480 the prosecution's case because it becomes part of the evidence 278 00:15:34.519 --> 00:15:40.679 that shows again it refutes self defense in terms of 279 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:45.120 the cover up after the fact, and so it is 280 00:15:45.279 --> 00:15:49.519 somewhat pathetic really because she calls her ex boyfriend, this 281 00:15:49.919 --> 00:15:53.080 guy named Rick Siegler tell us a little bit about 282 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:56.320 what she does, and this really doesn't do any benefit 283 00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:58.240 to her in this case at all, does it. 284 00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:06.039 Basically, she calls a number of people, and people call her, 285 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:10.080 and her problem is she tells people different stories, and 286 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:13.960 the rationale she uses that as essentially, well, they're not 287 00:16:13.960 --> 00:16:16.679 going to believe me because I'm already a felon, which 288 00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:19.320 is true. But it also showed, you know, she did lie, 289 00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:22.840 so you can't argue with that. She told different people 290 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:26.279 different things about what happened to the body afterwards, so 291 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:29.480 that is still not even clear to me. Honestly, she 292 00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:34.679 told she told Rick something about how she buried the body. 293 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:38.720 Now that doesn't mean she buried the body. That meant 294 00:16:39.080 --> 00:16:41.759 to me, because you know, people are not as precise 295 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:44.279 with their language as you and I might be as writers. 296 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:49.159 I often find that where people may say something but 297 00:16:50.120 --> 00:16:54.200 they aren't being specific. They're saying, you know, like, she 298 00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:58.200 didn't say we buried the body because it's you know anyway. 299 00:16:58.200 --> 00:16:59.960 My point in that is, I think there's some way 300 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:02.919 room in there. She told different people different things. The 301 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:08.359 guy who she said buried the body had been arrested 302 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:11.240 some ridiculous number of times, and I read his deposition 303 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:14.839 and it was really incoherent, and so he never was 304 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:17.680 even in court, so they couldn't even question him. And 305 00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:19.720 if he's the guy who buried the body for her, 306 00:17:19.759 --> 00:17:22.960 which is what she claimed, there was never that never 307 00:17:23.000 --> 00:17:25.519 got into court either, So I just I guess. All 308 00:17:25.519 --> 00:17:27.440 I'm saying is I can't prove what happened. I don't 309 00:17:27.440 --> 00:17:29.480 know whether she buried the body or whether he buried 310 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:32.440 the body. But the body was found across state lines 311 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:35.640 or county lines, whatever it was county lines, and that 312 00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:39.160 didn't look good. So the jury basically said, well, who 313 00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.440 takes a body, you know, no matter how it got there, 314 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:43.839 Who takes a body to across state lines and buries 315 00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:47.079 it like that doesn't tell anyone the gun's missing. It 316 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:49.640 just looks really bad. And she told people different stories, 317 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:51.319 and she's a drug addict, and you know, we don't 318 00:17:51.359 --> 00:17:55.480 like drug addicts. That's pretty much our society. So you know, 319 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:58.079 I'm not defending her. I'm just saying I just felt 320 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.319 like her her case didn't get a fair look, that's all. 321 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.079 I don't know what happened. I wasn't there, So. 322 00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.920 Well, if you put in what you do bring up 323 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:12.319 to is that she does have this background of being 324 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:18.039 raped at thirteen, refused to press charges, but this led 325 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:19.920 to a falling out with her father. Instead of her 326 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:24.799 father being compassionate and sympathetic, he has a falling out 327 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:27.319 because she can't go to the authorities at thirteen. 328 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:33.720 It sounds like functional, pretty dysfunctional. 329 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:36.160 Situation at least, and then then she's raped again at sixteen. 330 00:18:36.680 --> 00:18:39.319 She tried to report the rape, but there was a 331 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:43.119 lack of evidence, so there was no arrest, right, and. 332 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:44.920 Then after a third point, I think she kind of 333 00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.519 gave up, you know, and it kept happening. 334 00:18:47.559 --> 00:18:47.680 Well. 335 00:18:47.720 --> 00:18:51.039 It also does tie into the idea that that I mean, 336 00:18:51.759 --> 00:18:55.319 I'm just looking at sort of other courts. We'll say, again, 337 00:18:55.440 --> 00:18:57.839 what do I know Canadian courts where they would have 338 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:02.000 taken in the consideration all of that abuse background and 339 00:19:02.519 --> 00:19:05.599 would a end credibility that she felt that she was 340 00:19:05.640 --> 00:19:08.720 a battered woman or she was in this self defense mode. 341 00:19:08.880 --> 00:19:11.920 Right at the same time, she did provide I thought 342 00:19:13.039 --> 00:19:18.160 somewhat credible evidence at least in court of abuse that 343 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:21.440 this man was abusive. So whether whether that was proven 344 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.519 or not, I wasn't at the court right well, and 345 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:25.440 she also. 346 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.599 Tried to prevent that whole case separately, you know, the 347 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:31.079 whole standard ground law that's been so controversial in Florida 348 00:19:31.119 --> 00:19:36.400 with the Zimmerman Trayvon Martin case. That was, I guess 349 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:39.319 a pretty new law at the time and still pretty controversial, 350 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:42.519 and they tried to get her a defense based on that, 351 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:44.640 and they threw it out of court. So what's odd 352 00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:47.079 to me is that Zimmerman gets off and she isn't 353 00:19:47.079 --> 00:19:50.319 allowed to use that defense. That to me just was 354 00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:54.359 like bizarre, you know, not fairly applied. You know. 355 00:19:56.319 --> 00:19:59.400 Anyway, the one of the other thing too, would you 356 00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:03.599 do bring up in each group of the state crime 357 00:20:03.640 --> 00:20:06.920 stories that you have picked? Is that a fascinating statistic 358 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:10.079 as well that you talk about South Carolina and the 359 00:20:10.119 --> 00:20:12.960 imprisonment per capita of ratio? So maybe tell us about 360 00:20:13.000 --> 00:20:15.759 that before we moved to another. 361 00:20:15.799 --> 00:20:17.240 So I'm gonna have to look that up pulled on. 362 00:20:18.319 --> 00:20:24.599 I don't remember the statistics at the top of my heads. 363 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:26.960 I don't know where that is. I also honestly don't 364 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.240 have that in my memory. So oh, wait here it 365 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:33.880 does hold on violent crime fifty one percent higher than 366 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:37.519 the national average in twenty ten. Is that what you meant. 367 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:41.880 Yes, Okay, there you have it. It's just just a 368 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:46.559 super high per capita imprisonment rate in South Carolina as well. 369 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:53.000 Thirty three percent more murders today than California and Texas, 370 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:56.160 more inmates per capita in the thirty two prisons than 371 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.119 any other state. That was in nineteen ninety four, and 372 00:20:59.279 --> 00:21:01.799 even after six can Overhall drop in crime nationally in 373 00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:04.119 the years that followed, my crime rate was still fifty 374 00:21:04.119 --> 00:21:06.480 one percent higher than the national average in twenty ten. 375 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.559 And the other thing that I learned by I thought 376 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:13.599 South Carolina was going to be the hardest state to 377 00:21:13.599 --> 00:21:16.440 do research on, it ended up being the easiest because 378 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:24.480 what I found was this really interesting sociological angle. Basically 379 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:29.279 so much racial strife in that state. I mean, all 380 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:32.000 a lot of this stuff that I was writing about 381 00:21:32.440 --> 00:21:37.000 is about the white people not you know, not liking 382 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:39.920 the black people and Dylan, you know, and that's such 383 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.359 an issue. We have such a racial divide in our 384 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:46.359 country right now that you know, the presidential campaign has 385 00:21:46.400 --> 00:21:49.599 really brought that out into the open that I didn't 386 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:52.759 even realize was as bad as it is, you know, 387 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.200 and all the people who are claiming that the police 388 00:21:56.200 --> 00:21:59.599 officers are shooting the unarmed black people. I mean, it's 389 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.400 just been a whole trend in the last year. And 390 00:22:02.559 --> 00:22:04.839 I was writing this even before it came out as 391 00:22:04.920 --> 00:22:07.039 much as it has, you know, in the last few months. 392 00:22:07.079 --> 00:22:10.400 So that to me, I always wanted to believe that, 393 00:22:10.519 --> 00:22:13.720 you know, we were past that and Kumbaya and you know, 394 00:22:13.799 --> 00:22:16.359 we can all because I don't have a problem with 395 00:22:17.519 --> 00:22:18.960 you know, I'm not a racist, so I don't. I 396 00:22:19.000 --> 00:22:20.759 guess I didn't know it was there as much as 397 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:24.480 it really was, So it was it was very alarming 398 00:22:24.599 --> 00:22:27.839 to me to see. But it's a history, you know, 399 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:30.640 and it's the whole history thing with the Confederate flag 400 00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:33.440 and what it stands for and how people have such 401 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.240