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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Geese, Bundy, Dahmer, The Knights BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening.
Speaker 7: New York Times best selling crime authors Caitlin Rother and
Speaker 7: Greg Olsen have joined up to release this compilation of
Speaker 7: incredible murder cases from Florida, South Carolina, and Georgia. In Florida,
Speaker 7: a former flight attendant murders her multi millionaire boyfriend of
Speaker 7: eighteen years using a gun, a knife, a hammer, and
Speaker 7: possibly poisoned gin, claiming it was abusive for years, and
Speaker 7: put a loaded gun to her head. A woman with
Speaker 7: a history of violent drug addicted boyfriends kills her latest
Speaker 7: lover after only a few weeks together, alleging that he
Speaker 7: forced a gun into her mouth in a drug induced rage.
Speaker 7: A fifteen year old girl falls in love and wants
Speaker 7: to have a baby with a boyfriend who is four
Speaker 7: years older. Her mother, who wants to end the relationship,
Speaker 7: ends up dead after being stabbed, choked, and injected with
Speaker 7: a syringe loaded with bleach. A sixteen year old girl
Speaker 7: and her twenty year old boyfriend conspired a fatally bludgeon
Speaker 7: her disapproving father with a baseball bat. In Georgia, a
Speaker 7: socialite wife of a multi millionaire is fatally shot by
Speaker 7: a flower delivery man on the day of a key divorce.
Speaker 7: Hearing a crooked businessman trying to go straight a shot
Speaker 7: in his driveway by a hitman wearing a ski mask
Speaker 7: and camouflage gear. A contract for higher murder advertised in
Speaker 7: Soldier of Fortune magazine. A Gulf wer veteran and father
Speaker 7: of three is kidnapped, beaten, and stabbed by the lover
Speaker 7: of his on and off again wife who wants to
Speaker 7: collect life insurance metafits at pay off her house. In
Speaker 7: South Carolina, a woman goes to the electric chair after
Speaker 7: a vengeful over a dead calf turns fatal. The state's
Speaker 7: most prolific serial killer manages to kill a fellow prisoner
Speaker 7: while on death row, and a young white man tries
Speaker 7: to incite a race war by fatally shooting nine African
Speaker 7: Americans during Bible study in a historic church. The book
Speaker 7: that we're featuring this evening is Love Gone Wrong from
Speaker 7: the Notorious USA Series with my special guest journalist and
Speaker 7: author Caitlyn Rother. Welcome back to the program, and thank
Speaker 7: you very much for agreeing to this interview. Caitlyn Rother.
Speaker 8: Hi, it's good to be here.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much. Good to have you back, and
Speaker 7: some more amazing. It's been a few, it's been quite
Speaker 7: a few. It's been quite a few. And you've been back.
Speaker 7: You've been here right from the very beginning, back in
Speaker 7: twenty and ten.
Speaker 6: Still there you go.
Speaker 7: Let's get to this story because we've got a lot
Speaker 7: to cover. Yeah, and also want to do an update
Speaker 7: on the Dead Reckoning the new edition. So we've got
Speaker 7: a lot to cover. Why do this book? Tell us
Speaker 7: a pardon me? Tell us about the Notorious USA series first,
Speaker 7: and then tell us what was the criteria or how
Speaker 7: did you choose these stories? What was sort of the
Speaker 7: theme you had to do? Love Gone Wrong? Tell us
Speaker 7: a little about the Notorious USA series, and then the
Speaker 7: impetus for Love Gone Wrong?
Speaker 8: Okay, the series was launched by Greg Olsen, who's a
Speaker 8: good friend and a fellow true crime author, best selling author,
Speaker 8: and he basically had some other authors do It's basically
Speaker 8: a state by state look different, you know, notorious murder
Speaker 8: cases and they could be old, they could be new. Basically,
Speaker 8: we just I get that freedom to do whatever I want.
Speaker 8: So some authors do a big number of cases and
Speaker 8: just write a little bit about each one. But I mean,
Speaker 8: I don't know how to write short. It's not in
Speaker 8: my blood. That's why I quit new papers. I wanted
Speaker 8: to work on a shorter number of stories and kind
Speaker 8: of go a little bit more in depth. So they're
Speaker 8: each kind of you know what we call shorts anywhere
Speaker 8: from mind range from I don't know, eighteen thousand to
Speaker 8: twenty three thousand words each state by state. And you know,
Speaker 8: I started out with South Carolina, the one about the
Speaker 8: dead calf. The Complicated Woman is the title of that one.
Speaker 8: And I started looking for historic cases because I've never
Speaker 8: done that before, and I thought, well, that would be cool,
Speaker 8: that would be fun. I've always been kind of forced
Speaker 8: into the criteria of the publishers these days. They want
Speaker 8: these brand new cases that are on TV. I wanted
Speaker 8: to do something different, so my criteria. No one set
Speaker 8: this for me. I basically just looked what was to
Speaker 8: what was interesting for me and something different. And because
Speaker 8: I've been having to write stories that everybody's kind of
Speaker 8: heard about already at least, you know, on the news
Speaker 8: or whatever, I wanted to pick some that were a
Speaker 8: little bit more obscure. So I ended up picking some
Speaker 8: notorious cases in South Carolina. There were three. It actually
Speaker 8: one of them was in the news and it's still
Speaker 8: in storm roof, the one about the guy who killed
Speaker 8: the people in the church. But I picked two older cases.
Speaker 8: One Sue Lowe, who was the first woman in South
Speaker 8: Carolina to be electrocuted in the and so to get
Speaker 8: the death penalty. And then a guy, uh pee Wee Gaskins,
Speaker 8: who was also got the death penalty, but he was
Speaker 8: one of these guys who claimed to have killed you know,
Speaker 8: eighty to one hundred people, but you know, most people
Speaker 8: who knew him thought he was exaggerating. And there were
Speaker 8: fourteen murders, so I was kind of looking for, you know,
Speaker 8: the worst but also unique. So and then in some
Speaker 8: of the other some of the other ones, which well,
Speaker 8: I'm sure we'll get to later, but kind of, you know,
Speaker 8: I wanted to do a mix, so state by state.
Speaker 8: In Florida, I found two pairs of where we had
Speaker 8: similar circumstances but different outcomes, very different outcomes, and so
Speaker 8: there were two pairs of those. And then in Georgia,
Speaker 8: there was an FBI source that I had who I
Speaker 8: was working with a little bit on some documents and
Speaker 8: some interesting backstory and ended up putting together some stuff
Speaker 8: in Georgia. So it really there wasn't any one specific thing,
Speaker 8: but when I had to title it, I had to
Speaker 8: look for something. And the theme that I saw not
Speaker 8: every single case I picked, but most of them had
Speaker 8: to do with what I thought was love gone wrong,
Speaker 8: and that is mothers kids killing their parents, which is
Speaker 8: a pretty twisted version of that boyfriends girlfriends killing their boyfriends,
Speaker 8: and you know, and in many cases, you know, I
Speaker 8: find that it's more interesting for many of our readers
Speaker 8: of the true crime genre, who are women, to read
Speaker 8: about women killing people. So I always look for an
Speaker 8: interesting female character. So anyway, those are some of my criteria.
Speaker 7: Now let's get right to one of the stories, because
Speaker 7: I said, we've got so much to cover, and we're
Speaker 7: just going to be able to touch on a few
Speaker 7: of these stories and not go so in depth. But
Speaker 7: they're just incredible stories. So as you talk about some
Speaker 7: amazing female characters, let's talk about Melissa Melissa Webb, who's
Speaker 7: twenty eight years old in this story, and Brian Sorndino
Speaker 7: and he's thirty years old, and they're Fort Myers, Florida.
Speaker 7: So these people are addicted to oxy codone and they
Speaker 7: don't got a lot of money. They're split up, but
Speaker 7: they're still living together. And this is August twenty eleven,
Speaker 7: So tell us a little bit about their circumstances and
Speaker 7: who is Melissa Webb?
Speaker 8: To start, well, this case was the last one that
Speaker 8: I did in this state in Florida, so I act
Speaker 8: actually had planned to do a short version of this case.
Speaker 8: I thought it was going to be one of the
Speaker 8: shorter ones of the of the four that I picked
Speaker 8: for Florida. And as I got more and more into
Speaker 8: this case, I really felt like there was something wrong here.
Speaker 8: It's one of those cases it's hard to prove. It's
Speaker 8: one of those things where she's already a felon for stealing,
Speaker 8: she's a drug user. You know, they don't. They don't
Speaker 8: seem like very sympathetic characters. The the the boyfriend quote
Speaker 8: unquote boyfriend. They'd hardly known each other for very long.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 8: On the face of it, it wasn't that interesting a case.
Speaker 8: But the more I got into it, the more I
Speaker 8: learned about Melissa, the more I realize our justice system
Speaker 8: is kind of screwed up at times. And that's one
Speaker 8: of the things that I'll you know, that draws me
Speaker 8: to some of the cases I write about where I
Speaker 8: feel like there's been something that people have not gotten
Speaker 8: a specific you know, a particularly fair chance in the system.
Speaker 8: So the reason I say that is it turns out
Speaker 8: she is Native American, and there are some statistics from
Speaker 8: the Department of Justice that show that Native American women
Speaker 8: are two and a half times more likely to be
Speaker 8: raped than women of other ethnicities, and I just thought, wow,
Speaker 8: that's pretty interesting. And in her background, as it turns out,
Speaker 8: I interviewed her mother, and her mother said, you know,
Speaker 8: I don't agree with the choices she's made in her life.
Speaker 8: You know, she is she does is addicted to drugs.
Speaker 8: She's you know, I don't allow her to live with
Speaker 8: me when she's doing drugs. But she's she's not a killer.
Speaker 8: And so the more I learned about her, she had
Speaker 8: been raped a number of times by these boyfriends that
Speaker 8: she'd had, you know or not. Some of them were boyfriends,
Speaker 8: some of them were strangers, and you know, she just
Speaker 8: sounded like she just had a rough time of it
Speaker 8: from the get go. And you know, it just the
Speaker 8: whole story as it played out, it's like she's already
Speaker 8: in the system, she's already a fellon, and so she basically,
Speaker 8: the way the laws are written, she didn't really have
Speaker 8: a chance, I thought, So she was defending herself. This
Speaker 8: is her story. Her story is that this guy who
Speaker 8: also was a drug addict and his family was kind
Speaker 8: of tied in with the law enforcement in town, even
Speaker 8: though he was a drug addict. His stepfather was worked
Speaker 8: for the sheriff's department, and as a small town and
Speaker 8: so anyway, it was just sort of the way that
Speaker 8: it went. There was evidence that didn't really get to
Speaker 8: be presented to the jury about what happened in the room,
Speaker 8: and there were guns and when she got back from
Speaker 8: being out and he was drugged, but she claims that
Speaker 8: he was paranoid and mixed all these different kinds of
Speaker 8: drugs cocaine and steroids in addition to the oxy cotone,
Speaker 8: and was in a rage and they'd been fighting, and
Speaker 8: that he threatened her and said he was going to
Speaker 8: kill her and came after her, fired at a shot
Speaker 8: into the ceiling and then put the gun in her mouth,
Speaker 8: and so she claims, you know, she was just trying
Speaker 8: to defend herself, and she saw there was another gun downstairs,
Speaker 8: which is a shotgun. So even when she got the
Speaker 8: gun away from him, he was going downstairs, she thought
Speaker 8: to get the shotgun and which is no match for
Speaker 8: the small gun. And anyway, and what ended up happening
Speaker 8: is there was evidence in the apartment to prove some
Speaker 8: of this, but the sheriff's department didn't collect it. The
Speaker 8: defense hired an expert. The expert was not allowed to
Speaker 8: present any of this information anyway. I ended up making
Speaker 8: it about three times longer than what I was going
Speaker 8: to because I just really felt like I just felt
Speaker 8: like some of this evidence should be seen by somebody
Speaker 8: because it was you know, there was no media coverage
Speaker 8: of this case at all, So I just felt strongly
Speaker 8: that this case just at least needed to have somebody
Speaker 8: look at it in a more objective way.
Speaker 7: Well, let's talk a little bit more about this case,
Speaker 7: because the audience won't have any clue of the story
Speaker 7: that we're talking about. And what I want you to
Speaker 7: go What wasn't clear to me, and I think it
Speaker 7: obviously wasn't raised in the defense properly, is or wasn't
Speaker 7: investigated properly. Is the contention that she had that she
Speaker 7: fired a shot in this self defense. You think that
Speaker 7: must be a crucial thing to be able to investigate it.
Speaker 7: And you say, the police service in this book say
Speaker 7: they didn't find any bullet hole whatsoever to back up
Speaker 7: her assertion, and that's what she did in this cell.
Speaker 8: Well, I think I think what the shot he shired,
Speaker 8: he fired a shot that went into the ceiling before
Speaker 8: he stuck it in her mouth and then she fired
Speaker 8: two shots into him, and one of the shots that
Speaker 8: went through his skull. They never found it in the
Speaker 8: wall when it should have been found because it went
Speaker 8: through and through, so there were two points. So the
Speaker 8: there was they never really investigated the hole in the ceiling.
Speaker 8: The defense went back removed that portion of the ceiling.
Speaker 8: It was there was a water stain, so it clearly
Speaker 8: was leaking, so there clearly was a hole there, but
Speaker 8: the prosecution really never was never really investigated that, and
Speaker 8: the judge wouldn't let it in. So the defense hires
Speaker 8: this expert to basically look at all this take the
Speaker 8: ceiling apart, wrote a big report through some pages and
Speaker 8: was not allowed to show it to the jury, was
Speaker 8: not allowed to testify. And so to me, that just
Speaker 8: didn't seem right. That didn't seem right.
Speaker 7: But to bolster the prosecution's case, And it does bolster
Speaker 7: the prosecution's case because it becomes part of the evidence
Speaker 7: that shows again it refutes self defense in terms of
Speaker 7: the cover up after the fact, and so it is
Speaker 7: somewhat pathetic really because she calls her ex boyfriend, this
Speaker 7: guy named Rick Siegler tell us a little bit about
Speaker 7: what she does, and this really doesn't do any benefit
Speaker 7: to her in this case at all, does it.
Speaker 8: Basically, she calls a number of people, and people call her,
Speaker 8: and her problem is she tells people different stories, and
Speaker 8: the rationale she uses that as essentially, well, they're not
Speaker 8: going to believe me because I'm already a felon, which
Speaker 8: is true. But it also showed, you know, she did lie,
Speaker 8: so you can't argue with that. She told different people
Speaker 8: different things about what happened to the body afterwards, so
Speaker 8: that is still not even clear to me. Honestly, she
Speaker 8: told she told Rick something about how she buried the body.
Speaker 8: Now that doesn't mean she buried the body. That meant
Speaker 8: to me, because you know, people are not as precise
Speaker 8: with their language as you and I might be as writers.
Speaker 8: I often find that where people may say something but
Speaker 8: they aren't being specific. They're saying, you know, like, she
Speaker 8: didn't say we buried the body because it's you know anyway.
Speaker 8: My point in that is, I think there's some way
Speaker 8: room in there. She told different people different things. The
Speaker 8: guy who she said buried the body had been arrested
Speaker 8: some ridiculous number of times, and I read his deposition
Speaker 8: and it was really incoherent, and so he never was
Speaker 8: even in court, so they couldn't even question him. And
Speaker 8: if he's the guy who buried the body for her,
Speaker 8: which is what she claimed, there was never that never
Speaker 8: got into court either, So I just I guess. All
Speaker 8: I'm saying is I can't prove what happened. I don't
Speaker 8: know whether she buried the body or whether he buried
Speaker 8: the body. But the body was found across state lines
Speaker 8: or county lines, whatever it was county lines, and that
Speaker 8: didn't look good. So the jury basically said, well, who
Speaker 8: takes a body, you know, no matter how it got there,
Speaker 8: Who takes a body to across state lines and buries
Speaker 8: it like that doesn't tell anyone the gun's missing. It
Speaker 8: just looks really bad. And she told people different stories,
Speaker 8: and she's a drug addict, and you know, we don't
Speaker 8: like drug addicts. That's pretty much our society. So you know,
Speaker 8: I'm not defending her. I'm just saying I just felt
Speaker 8: like her her case didn't get a fair look, that's all.
Speaker 8: I don't know what happened. I wasn't there, So.
Speaker 7: Well, if you put in what you do bring up
Speaker 7: to is that she does have this background of being
Speaker 7: raped at thirteen, refused to press charges, but this led
Speaker 7: to a falling out with her father. Instead of her
Speaker 7: father being compassionate and sympathetic, he has a falling out
Speaker 7: because she can't go to the authorities at thirteen.
Speaker 8: It sounds like functional, pretty dysfunctional.
Speaker 7: Situation at least, and then then she's raped again at sixteen.
Speaker 7: She tried to report the rape, but there was a
Speaker 7: lack of evidence, so there was no arrest, right, and.
Speaker 8: Then after a third point, I think she kind of
Speaker 8: gave up, you know, and it kept happening.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 7: It also does tie into the idea that that I mean,
Speaker 7: I'm just looking at sort of other courts. We'll say, again,
Speaker 7: what do I know Canadian courts where they would have
Speaker 7: taken in the consideration all of that abuse background and
Speaker 7: would a end credibility that she felt that she was
Speaker 7: a battered woman or she was in this self defense mode.
Speaker 7: Right at the same time, she did provide I thought
Speaker 7: somewhat credible evidence at least in court of abuse that
Speaker 7: this man was abusive. So whether whether that was proven
Speaker 7: or not, I wasn't at the court right well, and
Speaker 7: she also.
Speaker 8: Tried to prevent that whole case separately, you know, the
Speaker 8: whole standard ground law that's been so controversial in Florida
Speaker 8: with the Zimmerman Trayvon Martin case. That was, I guess
Speaker 8: a pretty new law at the time and still pretty controversial,
Speaker 8: and they tried to get her a defense based on that,
Speaker 8: and they threw it out of court. So what's odd
Speaker 8: to me is that Zimmerman gets off and she isn't
Speaker 8: allowed to use that defense. That to me just was
Speaker 8: like bizarre, you know, not fairly applied. You know.
Speaker 7: Anyway, the one of the other thing too, would you
Speaker 7: do bring up in each group of the state crime
Speaker 7: stories that you have picked? Is that a fascinating statistic
Speaker 7: as well that you talk about South Carolina and the
Speaker 7: imprisonment per capita of ratio? So maybe tell us about
Speaker 7: that before we moved to another.
Speaker 8: So I'm gonna have to look that up pulled on.
Speaker 8: I don't remember the statistics at the top of my heads.
Speaker 8: I don't know where that is. I also honestly don't
Speaker 8: have that in my memory. So oh, wait here it
Speaker 8: does hold on violent crime fifty one percent higher than
Speaker 8: the national average in twenty ten. Is that what you meant.
Speaker 7: Yes, Okay, there you have it. It's just just a
Speaker 7: super high per capita imprisonment rate in South Carolina as well.
Speaker 8: Thirty three percent more murders today than California and Texas,
Speaker 8: more inmates per capita in the thirty two prisons than
Speaker 8: any other state. That was in nineteen ninety four, and
Speaker 8: even after six can Overhall drop in crime nationally in
Speaker 8: the years that followed, my crime rate was still fifty
Speaker 8: one percent higher than the national average in twenty ten.
Speaker 8: And the other thing that I learned by I thought
Speaker 8: South Carolina was going to be the hardest state to
Speaker 8: do research on, it ended up being the easiest because
Speaker 8: what I found was this really interesting sociological angle. Basically
Speaker 8: so much racial strife in that state. I mean, all
Speaker 8: a lot of this stuff that I was writing about
Speaker 8: is about the white people not you know, not liking
Speaker 8: the black people and Dylan, you know, and that's such
Speaker 8: an issue. We have such a racial divide in our
Speaker 8: country right now that you know, the presidential campaign has
Speaker 8: really brought that out into the open that I didn't
Speaker 8: even realize was as bad as it is, you know,
Speaker 8: and all the people who are claiming that the police
Speaker 8: officers are shooting the unarmed black people. I mean, it's
Speaker 8: just been a whole trend in the last year. And
Speaker 8: I was writing this even before it came out as
Speaker 8: much as it has, you know, in the last few months.
Speaker 8: So that to me, I always wanted to believe that,
Speaker 8: you know, we were past that and Kumbaya and you know,
Speaker 8: we can all because I don't have a problem with
Speaker 8: you know, I'm not a racist, so I don't. I
Speaker 8: guess I didn't know it was there as much as
Speaker 8: it really was, So it was it was very alarming
Speaker 8: to me to see. But it's a history, you know,
Speaker 8: and it's the whole history thing with the Confederate flag
Speaker 8: and what it stands for and how people have such
Speaker 8: different perspectives on that in South Carolina that that was
Speaker 8: just fascinating to me because it's just so different from
Speaker 8: from where I live here in California.
Speaker 7: You also mentioned, and this is I guess this is
Speaker 7: the most One of the most interesting statistics that you
Speaker 7: cite is that Pee Wee Gascons again the killer of
Speaker 7: fourteen and one while while he was on death row.
Speaker 7: And this is one of the fascinating stories, is Pee
Speaker 7: week Gascans junior. But he is the first white man
Speaker 7: in the US in fifty years executed for killing a
Speaker 7: black man, and one hundred and eleven years in South Carolina.
Speaker 7: And you say two tenths of one percent of all
Speaker 7: executions nationally are for whites killing.
Speaker 8: Blacks, right, got that right out of the New York Times.
Speaker 8: So it was, uh, yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy stuff we've
Speaker 8: never seen about Carolina.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 7: We mentioned in the opening about a fascinating story about
Speaker 7: unbelievably soldier of Fortune magazine for people that don't know
Speaker 7: what that is. But soldier of Fortune magazine and the
Speaker 7: case of we're talking about Richard Brown, hitman for hire.
Speaker 7: This one is a somewhat comedic if it weren't so
Speaker 7: tragic and fatal.
Speaker 8: Yes, Keystone, it is a real.
Speaker 7: Comedy of errors going on here, unorganized crime at its height.
Speaker 7: But this is in nineteen eighty five June. Richard Braun.
Speaker 7: He has a girlfriend named Marian, and he works at
Speaker 7: a company called Reliance in Atlanta, and there is someone
Speaker 7: when he has these explosions in his vehicle and the
Speaker 7: police asked, geez, do you got somebody that might be
Speaker 7: pissed at year? And they said, well, come to think
Speaker 7: of it, and he mentions somebody named Mark Braun and
Speaker 7: Mike Kaplan. So tell us about Richard Braun and where
Speaker 7: he's at cocaine anonymous at this time, and a person
Speaker 7: named Michael Jackson and grenades and this comedy of errors
Speaker 7: and unorganized crime. Tell us a little bit about hitman
Speaker 7: for hire.
Speaker 8: Okay, So one thing I just want to say off
Speaker 8: the top is I was actually thinking of doing a longer,
Speaker 8: separate version of this because it was the comptory to
Speaker 8: try to research and to try to tell because it's
Speaker 8: a national story and I was trying to make it
Speaker 8: about Georgia. So I just picked one of the murders
Speaker 8: to really go into, and that was Richard Brawn. But
Speaker 8: there was this whole like I don't really want to
Speaker 8: call it organized crime because it wasn't very organized, but
Speaker 8: there were just these really seedy guys. You know, one
Speaker 8: in particular, and he just got this idea. He's you know,
Speaker 8: been in the military briefly, had been in a prison
Speaker 8: guard and just had this idea. You know. He goes
Speaker 8: and he gets this strip club and he reads the
Speaker 8: soldier of Fortune magazine and sees that people are advertising
Speaker 8: in the back I mean pretty blatantly advertising their services basically,
Speaker 8: you know, as people can go kill someone for you.
Speaker 8: And he realized that, you know, he'd get these calls
Speaker 8: at the payphone at the bar, and these people, mostly men,
Speaker 8: wanted someone to go kill their wives so they didn't
Speaker 8: have to pay you know, divorce and alimony and stuff.
Speaker 8: And it was pretty bizarre. These guys that he used
Speaker 8: were young. They they had this idea that they thought
Speaker 8: it would be cool, you know, to be hit man,
Speaker 8: and it was just absurd because they were constantly trying
Speaker 8: to set bombs that didn't go off properly, and they
Speaker 8: were you know, just total low life. But they did
Speaker 8: end up killing two people, and Richard Brown with only
Speaker 8: one of them. And it was sad because you know,
Speaker 8: he was he was a drug addict and he had
Speaker 8: been doing some stuff with this guy in this business
Speaker 8: and he knew it wasn't really ethical and wasn't really right.
Speaker 8: So he was trying to get out, he was trying
Speaker 8: to get straight, he was trying to get off drugs.
Speaker 8: Met this woman and AA or NAA wasn't really clear,
Speaker 8: and next thing you know, he gets, you know, there's
Speaker 8: a bomb in his car and he managed to not
Speaker 8: be killed at the first attempt, but they eventually come
Speaker 8: back and shoot him. And this one of these low
Speaker 8: life shows up with the you know, ski mask on
Speaker 8: and camouflage and this and that, and it's just like
Speaker 8: there were so many different moving parts to this story
Speaker 8: because it was all over the country and there were
Speaker 8: episodes of it. And so it turns out that alcohol
Speaker 8: fire I forget atf alcohol tobacco on firearms is the
Speaker 8: one that ended up coordinating this case because it had
Speaker 8: to do with explosives and guns and guns being sent
Speaker 8: across straight lines and this guy was operating out of
Speaker 8: one place, and you know, they were traveling and killing
Speaker 8: people in different states. And because it was all in
Speaker 8: the back of the Soldier Fortune, which is a national magazine,
Speaker 8: And to me, I just could not believe that it
Speaker 8: was so easy to hire a hitman, just why out
Speaker 8: of a magazine. And there was another case which I
Speaker 8: didn't go into very much. I just mentioned it in there,
Speaker 8: which took place in Florida, so about a woman who
Speaker 8: was a you know, and these were innocent people. These
Speaker 8: people had done nothing wrong. They just had you know,
Speaker 8: scummy husbands or boyfriends or whatever, you know, or somebody
Speaker 8: who wanted their money, and it was all about greed mostly.
Speaker 8: That's what was so sad about is these innocent people
Speaker 8: were getting killed. The woman in Florida was perfectly nice,
Speaker 8: you know, government worker, you know, well liked and everything,
Speaker 8: and her husband hired this hitman and killed her in beds.
Speaker 8: And he's the same guy who killed Richard Brawn in Georgia.
Speaker 8: So they all they got tried in a whole bunch
Speaker 8: of different states. And I was reading all these different
Speaker 8: news articles trying to piece it together because nobody, it
Speaker 8: seems like no single reporter was able to pull it
Speaker 8: all together. So that's something I was trying to do
Speaker 8: on my own all these years later. It was pretty fascinating,
Speaker 8: but pretty difficult. And it was one thing that was
Speaker 8: really interesting. You know, the author Michael Connolly, right, he
Speaker 8: writes crime fiction. He was one of the reporters who
Speaker 8: actually wrote one of some of these stories when he
Speaker 8: was still a reporter down in Florida. And so he
Speaker 8: wrote a piece of you know, a couple of pieces
Speaker 8: on this and and kind of hinted at the you know,
Speaker 8: the national angle of it all. But I was like, hey, wait,
Speaker 8: there's Michael Conway. He even got in on this, So
Speaker 8: that shows you how long ago this was. Before he
Speaker 8: was a before he was an author, before he even
Speaker 8: went to the La Times, he was a reporter in Florida.
Speaker 7: A profound part of your book is you have the
Speaker 7: scene where the assailant is dressed in a camouflage jacket
Speaker 7: and jeans and tennis shoes, and he has this Mac
Speaker 7: eleven machine pistol and he's aiming at this Mercedes and
Speaker 7: Richard Brown's son Michael, is with him and he sees
Speaker 7: that it has some kind of a seems like a
Speaker 7: homemade aluminium foil silencer with a coke bottle. So tell
Speaker 7: us about this little scene that you describe that again,
Speaker 7: you say that the innocent people that are involved, well,
Speaker 7: this is his son witnessing this hit man coming for
Speaker 7: his father.
Speaker 8: Ah. Basically you just you basically just captured what's here. Basically,
Speaker 8: Richard and his son are driving out the driveway of
Speaker 8: the house and this guy comes out of the bushes,
Speaker 8: essentially wearing this outfit, carrying this thing, and Richard slams
Speaker 8: on the brakes and they both duck. Richard opens his
Speaker 8: door and rolls out onto the ground with the car
Speaker 8: still running, and his son, Michael, did the same thing.
Speaker 8: But Michael's on the other side of the car, and
Speaker 8: so he didn't really get shot. But the guy with
Speaker 8: the gun basically, you know, they're meeting eyed I and
Speaker 8: the Michael. The son goes, please, don't shoot me, and
Speaker 8: so the guy lowered the gun, put his finger to
Speaker 8: his lips and goes quiet. You know, So he he
Speaker 8: didn't at least he didn't kill the kid. You know,
Speaker 8: So this guy apparently, all these years later, the guy
Speaker 8: with the gun has apparently found religion and you know,
Speaker 8: turned over a whole new leaf in prison, supposedly, and
Speaker 8: you know, feels bad about what he did, but he
Speaker 8: did kill two people.
Speaker 7: So does he again. What happens afterwards in terms of
Speaker 7: this this hit man, how do police finally crack this?
Speaker 7: How do they get to the source of It's really complicated.
Speaker 8: Mazine, so complicated because there's all these different cases happening
Speaker 8: in all these different states, and little by little they
Speaker 8: this ATF guy is coordinating it, and they don't know
Speaker 8: that these cases are all related, you know, So it
Speaker 8: takes a long time for law enforcement, especially in different states.
Speaker 8: You know, it's hard enough when you're in the same state,
Speaker 8: and you have stuff going on in different counties that
Speaker 8: law enforcement doesn't even know what's going on. But this
Speaker 8: is even more difficult to solve. But basically, you know,
Speaker 8: they started putting it together. It was really difficult to
Speaker 8: actually piece that together and make sure that it was right.
Speaker 8: But you know, all over the country there were these
Speaker 8: series of incidents, and then these atf people started meeting
Speaker 8: and talking to each other and comparing notes about the bombs,
Speaker 8: and they started tracing where the bombs went, and it
Speaker 8: traced back to the guy who was hiring everybody, the
Speaker 8: guy who was placing the ad and Soldier of fortune.
Speaker 8: And it was really ridiculous too, because they the guy
Speaker 8: who ended up killing those two people. He got caught.
Speaker 8: They took his gun, but they didn't realize that the
Speaker 8: gun was linked to the murder that had just happened,
Speaker 8: even though you know, they had it in their evidence locker.
Speaker 8: The information hadn't been entered into the computer yet. You know.
Speaker 8: The thing was Dylan roof where he was, he bought
Speaker 8: a gun and he shot all these people, and he
Speaker 8: should never have been able to do that, But the
Speaker 8: FBI screwed up and didn't enter, some clerk didn't enter
Speaker 8: the right information or whatever, same kind of thing. You know,
Speaker 8: this stuff happens. And even when we have you know,
Speaker 8: the laws in place, and even though we have these
Speaker 8: checks and balances, these guys can just you know, kill somebody,
Speaker 8: get caught for something else, be held at a police station,
Speaker 8: and because the information's not in the computer, they can
Speaker 8: walk free and go kill somebody else. And that's pretty
Speaker 8: much what happened here. So but eventually they caught up
Speaker 8: to him, and they traced back the guns, they linked
Speaker 8: the ballistics and ended up having trials in all these
Speaker 8: different states. These guys had to be tried over and
Speaker 8: over again. And there was another guy who was killed anyway.
Speaker 8: So it was like the whole ring of people. And
Speaker 8: because they were so bad at it, you know, the
Speaker 8: police were able to solve because they kept screwing up.
Speaker 7: Well, one good thing, soldier of Fortune magazine declined to
Speaker 7: or discontinue during this.
Speaker 8: We kind of were forced in and pulling those ads
Speaker 8: and you know, not running those ads anymore. But the
Speaker 8: guy who runs that magazine sounds like quite a character,
Speaker 8: you know, sounds like a Larry Flint, except in guns.
Speaker 7: You know, yeah, you talk. We won't get into again.
Speaker 7: We don't have time to get into too many of
Speaker 7: the specifics, and some of these stories are very very complicated.
Speaker 7: But could we talk a little bit about pee week
Speaker 7: askins Junior just a little bit in terms of how
Speaker 7: he ends up killing somebody on death row.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that was the best part of this story, because,
Speaker 8: you know, the first part it was pretty nasty and
Speaker 8: he's killing everybody, and it was I was reading over
Speaker 8: the story today. There were so many names, all these people,
Speaker 8: and how they were all related to each other wasn't
Speaker 8: even that clear. But he's he's in prison and he
Speaker 8: basically confesses to you know, where all these bodies are buried,
Speaker 8: and you know, and he says, there are all these
Speaker 8: other bodies and of course no one can find him,
Speaker 8: so we don't even know. But he's one of these
Speaker 8: people who he's really short. He was sent to reform
Speaker 8: school really young. He was a twisted kid. You know,
Speaker 8: he found erotic pleasure and you know, pain and raping
Speaker 8: other people and from a very early age, so the
Speaker 8: kid was he was just a twisted He was twisted
Speaker 8: from the start. And so he kills these people. He
Speaker 8: kills again you know, doesn't like black people, doesn't think
Speaker 8: they should mix and mate. And therefore one of the
Speaker 8: victims was a multi race child, you know, and the
Speaker 8: mom he killed them both, you know, And so the guy,
Speaker 8: he's just a bad seat across the board. But anyway,
Speaker 8: so he's he's in prison, and he's he's on death row.
Speaker 8: This was a little confusing. I think he was on
Speaker 8: death row. But then they didn't execute anybody, sort of
Speaker 8: like we have in California where we have all these
Speaker 8: you know, eight hundred people on death row and then
Speaker 8: nobody gets executed for it's been ten years since they've
Speaker 8: executed anybody, and they're still sending people to death row.
Speaker 8: Well that's kind of how it was in South Carolina.
Speaker 8: So he's on death row and there's a guy in
Speaker 8: the cell next to him who's in there for killing
Speaker 8: the parents of this guy who's on the outside, and
Speaker 8: they get they the son of the victims is getting
Speaker 8: more and more frustrated because, you know, this murderer is
Speaker 8: not getting executed, so he's getting very frustrated. There's a
Speaker 8: number of trials too, retrials, and they keep reconvicting this guy,
Speaker 8: but still he's not getting executed. So this guy is
Speaker 8: so upset he decides he wants to somehow get this
Speaker 8: guy killed in prison. So there's somebody on the outside
Speaker 8: who hooks him up with this guy Peewee, who's got
Speaker 8: a reputation and he's also been a hit man, you know,
Speaker 8: hired as a killer previously. So basically what they decide
Speaker 8: to do is the guy in the outside, you know,
Speaker 8: starts sending different kinds of poison through the I don't
Speaker 8: know how they in this somebody's shoe and this and that,
Speaker 8: and so Peewee feeds tries to feed this guy in
Speaker 8: the you know, sell next to him. He's got people
Speaker 8: who work for him and deliver things, and they've got
Speaker 8: this whole system in prison where you have to do
Speaker 8: people favors or they, I don't know, beat you or
Speaker 8: rape you. I I don't mean to laugh, it's just
Speaker 8: it's so bizarre to me. But they He basically gets
Speaker 8: this guy working for him who delivers meals, and so
Speaker 8: he tries to poison the guy next to him, and
Speaker 8: the guy just get gets sick, and he tries a
Speaker 8: couple different times, finally gives up and says this isn't working.
Speaker 8: Some kind of explosive. You know, you need to send
Speaker 8: me some explosive. So somehow they smuggle in like stick
Speaker 8: of dynamite and something else, and I don't know exactly
Speaker 8: how it worked, but he came up with this idea
Speaker 8: and this contraption. He and the guy next door used
Speaker 8: to talk to each other through the air vent and
Speaker 8: it just wasn't you know, it was they couldn't hear
Speaker 8: each other that well. So he was like, I'm gonna
Speaker 8: rig up this you know, kind of phone system. That's
Speaker 8: what he told the guy. So what he did is
Speaker 8: he stuck the explosive step.
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Speaker 8: Says, somehow into the bottom of this cup, and you know,
Speaker 8: there was a wire, so he like put that through
Speaker 8: the vent and said, here, connect this wire to the
Speaker 8: bottom of this cup and you'll be able to hear
Speaker 8: each other, like let's play phone. Right, So the minute
Speaker 8: the guy sticks the wire into the cup, that basically
Speaker 8: blows him up in the cell. So pee wee Gaskins
Speaker 8: is gets away with killing somebody in prison next door
Speaker 8: with smuggled and explosives. I thought that was pretty amazing
Speaker 8: at how completely ridiculous the prisons are being run in
Speaker 8: South Carolina. Of course that was what twenty years ago,
Speaker 8: thirty years ago, but still you would think that they'd
Speaker 8: be able to stop stuff like that. I've never heard
Speaker 8: of anything like that happening in California. I don't know,
Speaker 8: but I thought that was.
Speaker 7: And Gaskins still caught red handed with all of this
Speaker 7: stuff in his cell, including soldering irons, tries to put
Speaker 7: it on the goal between and again he's not innocent,
Speaker 7: he's you know, framed and.
Speaker 8: Right, it was crazy, just a crazy guy. And then
Speaker 8: he writes this autobiography with somebody else and basically doesn't
Speaker 8: even apologize, has no remorse. You know, I had a
Speaker 8: reason for doing everything I ever done, and you know,
Speaker 8: et cetera. It was just I don't know where these
Speaker 8: people come from, but there were just they were amazing
Speaker 8: to me that there are people out there like this. Now,
Speaker 8: I don't know about the other I don't think about
Speaker 8: killing people. I don't know.
Speaker 7: No, not not that often. You have a strange you
Speaker 7: have a Again, all of these cases are amazing, but again,
Speaker 7: and one one of the other cases I thought was
Speaker 7: particularly interesting was the key Robinson and Valessa her daughter.
Speaker 7: Uh huh in just in the dynamic between these two women,
Speaker 7: the mother and daughter and what had happened. Why did
Speaker 7: you pick this story and what was interesting about this
Speaker 7: story for you?
Speaker 8: Well, okay, so I kind of have a little a
Speaker 8: rule that I go by when I'm picking a story.
Speaker 8: When I'm picking a book about murder, I want to
Speaker 8: do something different each time. I don't want to write
Speaker 8: the same story twice. And you know, there's all different
Speaker 8: kinds of murders. There's hitman for hire, which I wanted
Speaker 8: to do, so I did that. Teens killing parents I've
Speaker 8: never written about that. I wanted to do that, so
Speaker 8: I picked that one. And I also picked another one
Speaker 8: where there was a teenage girl who killed her father,
Speaker 8: and so we have a mattress side and a patricide.
Speaker 8: I also picked those two together because they had such
Speaker 8: different outcomes. So Robinson ended up getting out of prison
Speaker 8: and the other girl ended up staying, you know, in
Speaker 8: prison for life, and so I thought that was interesting too.
Speaker 8: And even from state to state, you know, when I
Speaker 8: put these together, there are women who kill boyfriends or
Speaker 8: you know, kill someone and they don't pull the trigger,
Speaker 8: and yet they get the death penalty when the guy
Speaker 8: who actually pulled the trigger ends up getting life and
Speaker 8: gets paroled. And in other cases, even in the same state,
Speaker 8: you know, it's just so completely disproportionate, and you know,
Speaker 8: the laws are not applied equitably, do you know what
Speaker 8: I mean. So that's kind of what goes into my
Speaker 8: story choice, is I'm looking with these different cases. I
Speaker 8: mentioned that I paired the two teen killings, and then
Speaker 8: I paired the two the one about Melissa that we
Speaker 8: talked about at the beginning, kill the guys she didn't
Speaker 8: know for very much for very long. Paired that one
Speaker 8: with another case in Florida, with the woman who had
Speaker 8: dated her boyfriend for eighteen years. So you know, here
Speaker 8: we have two knowing somebody for three weeks getting life
Speaker 8: in prison. Yet the woman who uses the hammer and
Speaker 8: the gun and the poison and all the other things
Speaker 8: she ended up getting. I forget what the sentence was,
Speaker 8: but it definitely wasn't death and it wasn't life. She
Speaker 8: got a chance at Pearl, I think after twenty five years.
Speaker 8: So I just thought, you know, it's really interesting to me,
Speaker 8: even in the same state, that you get such disparate punishment,
Speaker 8: you know, and different sentences and different charges and just
Speaker 8: depending on the I don't know if it's depending on
Speaker 8: the prosecutor, depending on the county, depending on I don't know,
Speaker 8: whether it's sunny outside. It just to me was just
Speaker 8: very strange. So back to Valsa, I also thought, you know,
Speaker 8: she and of whom you know, had boyfriend who they
Speaker 8: got to kill. Their parents. They were just I just
Speaker 8: don't understand. I don't understand that it happens sometimes, but
Speaker 8: it just what is going through a kid's head? Are
Speaker 8: they born like that? I mean, I know there's a
Speaker 8: lot of kids that don't get along with their parents,
Speaker 8: but I mean, honestly, to have them, you know, to
Speaker 8: have them down on the floor and to stick a
Speaker 8: syringe in their neck full of bleach, you know, with
Speaker 8: an air bubble in it, premeditated, and then that's not enough,
Speaker 8: so they need to stab her because she won't die.
Speaker 8: I just, I don't. I just it's unfathomable to me
Speaker 8: that you can do this to your own mother, who,
Speaker 8: you know, as far as we know, never abused her,
Speaker 8: never did anything except tried to discipline her, you know,
Speaker 8: so well.
Speaker 7: I got to say though, that it seems that there's
Speaker 7: a real disconnect between the parents and the kids, and
Speaker 7: there is a kid that wants to rebel and the
Speaker 7: parents are naive, will say, but these parents were the
Speaker 7: other way in terms of they were going to put
Speaker 7: her in this Christian school, this again institution basically it
Speaker 7: wasn't like just a private school. So it was their
Speaker 7: plans for her were something that she would definitely rebel against.
Speaker 7: And she had this bad boy boyfriend, as you described
Speaker 7: it had been in jail, not that it was in
Speaker 7: between Petty and Sirius. I guess he was on his
Speaker 7: way to be a developing criminal. But again, yes, you know,
Speaker 7: injecting her with bleach that was in a horrific scene
Speaker 7: in this book and then that's not working fast enough
Speaker 7: or it didn't do what they wanted to do so
Speaker 7: they could stab her. Then they go on this three
Speaker 7: day drug fueled party. I think this is where the
Speaker 7: jury just hates these people, you know, and whether it's
Speaker 7: a young woman or not, they just hear about the
Speaker 7: ten carrot gold ring at Walmart, twenty bags of concrete
Speaker 7: and the trash bags and the party.
Speaker 8: Right, that was a whole scene to me, like carr'er in,
Speaker 8: I think it was what was it Walmart or Target
Speaker 8: or something like that, and the advisor this gold ring
Speaker 8: so they could pretend to be married. You know, it
Speaker 8: was just it was like out of a movie. Is
Speaker 8: that of one of those movies that I don't want
Speaker 8: to watch because it's so depressing, And so this is
Speaker 8: real life. These are real people. They're like, you know,
Speaker 8: I just I just shake my head. I just shake
Speaker 8: my head. I get. I think the other woman, the
Speaker 8: other woman who was with the guy for eighteen years
Speaker 8: and used the hammer and the gun and the you know,
Speaker 8: I actually did quite a bit of research on that one.
Speaker 8: And he was from San Diego, you know where I live,
Speaker 8: And he was the guy who owned the dealership where
Speaker 8: I bought my car, as it turns out, and so I, oh, wow,
Speaker 8: that's pretty that's a coincidence, right, So I investigated his
Speaker 8: murder and I really understand. I understood her motivation more
Speaker 8: than I understood these kids, you know, even though she
Speaker 8: went so over the top, And that became the title
Speaker 8: for one of the for the singles about Florida was
Speaker 8: kill him some more. I mean, how many things do
Speaker 8: you need to kill somebody? A hammer and a gun
Speaker 8: and poison in the gin, and I forget what the
Speaker 8: last thing was a knife? So I was just like, God,
Speaker 8: how many different ways do you need to try to
Speaker 8: kill somebody? They're probably already dead? And that's how angry
Speaker 8: clearly she was at him, But at least I understood
Speaker 8: that a little more because eighteen years he's a rich guy.
Speaker 8: He wouldn't marry her, and you know, according to her,
Speaker 8: he threatened to shoot her. And so while he was,
Speaker 8: you know, passed out, she killed him and killed him
Speaker 8: some more. So that to me, you know, I wouldn't
Speaker 8: do it, but at least I at least understand the
Speaker 8: motivation a little bit more. And she claimed that when
Speaker 8: he got drun Key was very abusive and this had
Speaker 8: been a long history of this, and so that to
Speaker 8: me at least made a little more sense. But these
Speaker 8: kids and killing their parents, they just were like taking
Speaker 8: the joy ride and doing all this drugs and let's
Speaker 8: kill let's kill my mom. You know, I'm just like wow.
Speaker 7: Really, So what was the prosecution's case against the long
Speaker 7: term relationship and her killing what she said was an
Speaker 7: abusive husband. What was How did they proceed in terms
Speaker 7: of prosecution and defense on that.
Speaker 8: See, now you're asking me specific questions. I don't remember.
Speaker 8: I think they basically just didn't believe her. She tried
Speaker 8: for the you know, battered spouse even though they weren't spouses,
Speaker 8: they were living together, and they just didn't buy it.
Speaker 8: They just basically said, you know, you you wanted his money,
Speaker 8: you were you know, the gravy train was over. He
Speaker 8: wanted you to leave, and you were angry at him.
Speaker 8: So I think that's probably what the if I remember correctly,
Speaker 8: that's what the prosecution argued.
Speaker 7: And there was talk he did say to her, listen,
Speaker 7: I'm going to be seeing other people. So yeah, it
Speaker 7: was all of that. There was there was a long
Speaker 7: term relationship, but there had been a few couple of
Speaker 7: years where there was they weren't together, so was it
Speaker 7: seemed like he had convinced her to come back, or
Speaker 7: they had convinced each other, And then there was this
Speaker 7: other again, another breakup again right.
Speaker 8: Right, and and because she was a young stewardess when
Speaker 8: they met, and by the time she's in her fifties
Speaker 8: and she's not so cute anymore, and she's you know,
Speaker 8: has to dye her hair, and she's older, and you know,
Speaker 8: she was angry because you know, you hang in there
Speaker 8: long enough, you think you're supposed to get something out
Speaker 8: of it, and then they just drop you, and they
Speaker 8: have all the money and all the power, and you
Speaker 8: get thrown out. I mean what I'm saying, I could
Speaker 8: understand that. And if he really was as abusive as
Speaker 8: she says he was, although I interviewed somebody who knew
Speaker 8: him some years earlier and said, you know, I saw
Speaker 8: him drink, but I never saw he was like a
Speaker 8: really funny, really friendly, fun guy. Never saw him even
Speaker 8: remotely upset. But then again, his own lawyer told me
Speaker 8: that he saw him, you know, kind of some entitlement issues,
Speaker 8: you know, with having the money and not trusting people
Speaker 8: who are trying to supposedly get his money, and so
Speaker 8: that's all. It's all in the book, right, Interesting though,
Speaker 8: that he was owned the car dealership where the car
Speaker 8: that I have sitting in my driveway right now came
Speaker 8: from his dealership. I thought that was really interesting. It
Speaker 8: felt like I was supposed to write that one.
Speaker 7: Now we talk about in the last part of your book,
Speaker 7: you talk about a Kelly Renee gissen Daner. Maybe I'm
Speaker 7: mispronounced that. And again, a lot of a lot of
Speaker 7: these a lot of these cases were there's these women
Speaker 7: are victims of abuse, which should and does factor into
Speaker 7: these cases and their fates. So again, tell us a
Speaker 7: little bit about why what this just the overview of
Speaker 7: this case with Kelly Rene gissen Daner and what you
Speaker 7: were I guess what the story itself demonstrates.
Speaker 8: The reason I picked this case is because I felt
Speaker 8: like she was a really pretty horrible person. I thought,
Speaker 8: you know what, a horrible person. Why would she kill
Speaker 8: this perfectly nice guy who never abused her, never did
Speaker 8: anything to her. She just, again though, came from a
Speaker 8: background of being molested and abused and raped and ended
Speaker 8: up with this guy divorced him, they got back together.
Speaker 8: You know, she had kids, She had kids with him,
Speaker 8: and I don't think, you know, there wasn't any abuse
Speaker 8: in this situation. There wasn't anything except she was greedy.
Speaker 8: She and she wasn't in love with them anymore, and
Speaker 8: she fell in love with this other guy, and she
Speaker 8: got the other guy to kill her husband. And that
Speaker 8: to me, you know, and there was nothing in it
Speaker 8: except she she wanted. She thought there was life insurance money.
Speaker 8: Turned out there wasn't. She didn't want to keep getting
Speaker 8: back together with the guy, and so her lover, who
Speaker 8: she was in love with, didn't also also didn't want
Speaker 8: her going back with her husband because she kept going
Speaker 8: back for some reason. I don't know why. And so
Speaker 8: that's supposedly why he killed. Why he agreed to kill
Speaker 8: the husband, and not in a you know, in a
Speaker 8: pretty nasty way, took him out to the forest and
Speaker 8: made him, you know, kneel down, hit him in the
Speaker 8: back of the head. All this stuff. I mean, it
Speaker 8: was just mean. It was just a mean, rotten thing.
Speaker 8: But the reason I picked this case is I saw
Speaker 8: I really feel like she changed in prison. I really
Speaker 8: feel like she did. Actually finally turn into a better person.
Speaker 8: And the interesting thing about her case was it got
Speaker 8: national attention and it got international attention. The Pope even
Speaker 8: got involved in trying to get her get the death
Speaker 8: penalty commuted because she found religion. And you know a
Speaker 8: lot of people do find religion in prison in order
Speaker 8: to try to get out, you know, and make it
Speaker 8: look like they have changed. But it seems like she
Speaker 8: really did. She was commended by other inmates for helping them,
Speaker 8: for talking them through difficult situations when they felt like
Speaker 8: killing themselves, and they formed groups and they wrote letters
Speaker 8: for her. There were all kinds of people, petitions and everything.
Speaker 8: Like I said, the Pope even got involved. Now, the
Speaker 8: Pope has an agenda in that, you know, they don't
Speaker 8: believe in the death penalty, and he came here into
Speaker 8: twenty fifteen and even spoke about, you know, I really
Speaker 8: think you should not have the death penalty in this country.
Speaker 8: And so the US ambassador for the Pope actually wrote
Speaker 8: a letter to it was the DA's officer, the prisoner
Speaker 8: or whoever, but basically it tried to intervene in this
Speaker 8: case because she she you know, studied, she got this degree.
Speaker 8: She was writing letters with this theologian in I don't
Speaker 8: remember what country, but and he was impressed by her,
Speaker 8: came to visit her, and so she was helping people.
Speaker 8: She really did seem to be helping other people in prison.
Speaker 8: And you know they often use that at trial sentence saying, oh,
Speaker 8: you know, you should spare this person's life because they're
Speaker 8: smart or they're this, or they're that, and they can
Speaker 8: help other inmates. And you know, it's usually just something
Speaker 8: that they say, and I don't believe it. This case,
Speaker 8: it was actually happening. So that's the reason I picked
Speaker 8: this case, because she just it seemed like she was
Speaker 8: such a crummy person to start with, and like she
Speaker 8: really it really did seem like she changed. So when
Speaker 8: her husband was again another one of these innocent victims
Speaker 8: hadn't done anything wrong at all to deserve that.
Speaker 7: So you do also cite the two family members of
Speaker 7: the victim didn't approve of the death sentence either, so
Speaker 7: they were fighting against it as well.
Speaker 8: Right, there were three kids, and two of the three
Speaker 8: kids managed to stop being angry enough at her that
Speaker 8: they actually went on the very last day before she
Speaker 8: was supposed to be executed, and rather than visiting her,
Speaker 8: one last time they went and tried to plead to
Speaker 8: to keep her from being executed. So yeah, her two
Speaker 8: kids who loved the loved their dad, you know, or
Speaker 8: stepdad whatever, they wanted her save her life too.
Speaker 7: So and you do cite again. I don't know if
Speaker 7: I'll be able to get the stat that you cite,
Speaker 7: but it is extreme, remember extremely.
Speaker 8: But the other thing is, I was just reading this
Speaker 8: again today. I went through and read over all the
Speaker 8: different other cases. As I mentioned this earlier in our
Speaker 8: conversation today about the disproportionate application of the death penalty
Speaker 8: even in Georgia, there were all these other cases. I
Speaker 8: listed some of the more serious ones where they were
Speaker 8: the ones who did the killing. You know, she wasn't there.
Speaker 8: She didn't do it. She helped plan it, she helped
Speaker 8: mastermind it, but she wasn't the one who pulled the trigger.
Speaker 8: And she wasn't even there. So that's really unusual. And
Speaker 8: it's also really unusual just to have a woman on
Speaker 8: death row in Georgia. It's pretty unusual to have women
Speaker 8: on death row period. That's part of the reason why
Speaker 8: I picked some of these. And she was only the
Speaker 8: second woman in Georgia's history to be executed, and there
Speaker 8: are none on death row. There is none, not a
Speaker 8: single other one, at least at the time that I
Speaker 8: wrote this in Georgia on death row right now since
Speaker 8: she's been executed.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's they're part of these amazing stories, of these
Speaker 7: amazing stats that just are part of the story itself
Speaker 7: and just fascinating. Now with this notorious USA series, there
Speaker 7: are plans for how many more states do you have?
Speaker 7: I mean, how many states? Have you done?
Speaker 8: So much? I did three states, and that's that's my part.
Speaker 7: That's your contribution.
Speaker 8: I moved on to other book projects. I worked on
Speaker 8: these for about six months to get these three states.
Speaker 8: So I worked really hard on it. I mean, I
Speaker 8: was not intending to spend that much time on it,
Speaker 8: but I you know, I can't do anything half asked,
Speaker 8: So I ended up really going going into the research.
Speaker 8: And even though they're most each one of these is
Speaker 8: a magazine length story generally, except for the very first
Speaker 8: time we talked about which was really much longer because,
Speaker 8: like I said, it just the more I got into it,
Speaker 8: the more unfair it seemed. But they're they're magazinelength story.
Speaker 8: But I still have to you a lot of the
Speaker 8: research that I would do for a book, I just
Speaker 8: didn't write as much about it, you know. So I
Speaker 8: did those and then I got back to writing book projects,
Speaker 8: and you know, I'm also a writing coach and teacher,
Speaker 8: and so that's it for me for at least for now.
Speaker 8: So I have I have an essay that I've been
Speaker 8: working on that I'm going I was going to publish
Speaker 8: in October for Domestic Violence Months about my marriage my
Speaker 8: late husband and at my relationship. And it's taken me
Speaker 8: about seventeen years to finish that essay and I still
Speaker 8: couldn't quite get it published this month, but I'm gonna
Speaker 8: It's called Secrets, Lies, Smearing Off, and Shoelaces, which gives
Speaker 8: you an idea. But yeah, So I'm back to book
Speaker 8: projects and I'm working on something on Manson which I'm
Speaker 8: not allowed to talk about, but I can at least
Speaker 8: say that it's fascinating.
Speaker 7: Well, well, that's good that squeakdote. Before we stop talking
Speaker 7: about love gone wrong? What is it about the again?
Speaker 7: I mean, it sounds like a dumb question. What wouldn't
Speaker 7: we want to know about the nine African Americans were
Speaker 7: shot during this Bible study, but just give us a
Speaker 7: little glimpse of the story itself. In again incredible when
Speaker 7: he sits around in a group, he's invited into this church,
Speaker 7: this odd man. Just give us a little bit of
Speaker 7: that story. Don't give us the whole thing, but don't
Speaker 7: give us a little bit that came absolutely okay.
Speaker 8: Well, I think you know, Dylan Rufe, I had to
Speaker 8: write this one. It's the only one where he hadn't
Speaker 8: been tried yet, so I had to be careful because
Speaker 8: he's still accused, even though you know, it's clear. We
Speaker 8: have it on videotape him walking into the church and
Speaker 8: all those people were dead, and he's pretty much already
Speaker 8: said that. His lawyers said he would plead guilty if
Speaker 8: they took the death penalty off the table, so it's
Speaker 8: like he's already pretty much admitted it. But basically, you know,
Speaker 8: he's he walks into this church, which he purposely chose,
Speaker 8: according to his friends, that he purposely chose this because
Speaker 8: it was a historic African American church. He had been
Speaker 8: reading up on all of this racist you know, propaganda
Speaker 8: online and basically decided that you know, black on white
Speaker 8: crime was spiraling out of control and somebody needed to
Speaker 8: do something about it. And so he's one of these drifters, aimless,
Speaker 8: you know, has no life, has no real job, using drugs.
Speaker 8: His parents are I couldn't really tell if they didn't
Speaker 8: care about him or if he was just a pain
Speaker 8: in the ass. But he, you know, he was like
Speaker 8: staying with some other group of friends who sat around,
Speaker 8: you know, did drugs and played video games and drank.
Speaker 8: You know. It just it's like the young white man, uneducated,
Speaker 8: feeling disenfranchised, feeling disillusioned, feeling generally pissed off, goes and
Speaker 8: kills a bunch of people because I don't know, he
Speaker 8: thinks it's gonna he wanted to start a race war,
Speaker 8: I mean, which actually supposedly was the motivation, at least
Speaker 8: cited in court in the Manson trial. You know, it's
Speaker 8: just like I don't know if he did a lot
Speaker 8: of reading or something, but there's just the ideas, you know,
Speaker 8: he wrote some manifesto about, you know, no one else
Speaker 8: is doing it, I'm gonna go do it, and I'm
Speaker 8: going to take care of this, you know, and it
Speaker 8: was like he it seems like he already knew, he
Speaker 8: already knows his life was gonna be over the minute
Speaker 8: he did that, but he felt like it was important.
Speaker 8: So he goes into this church and shoots all these
Speaker 8: people who are you know, in the Middle Bible study,
Speaker 8: and they welcome him him in and he obviously doesn't
Speaker 8: belong there. He's the only white person, and they welcomed
Speaker 8: him in and then he ended up shooting him nine
Speaker 8: of them. So I thought that was pretty horrific. And again,
Speaker 8: you know, they were all completely innocent people. They had
Speaker 8: not done a thing to him. He didn't know any
Speaker 8: of them. You know. He's just one of these people
Speaker 8: who wants to be famous, I think, and had nothing
Speaker 8: else in his life that was going the way he
Speaker 8: wanted it. So this is how he decides to take
Speaker 8: matters into his own hands. And it's just it's so
Speaker 8: abominable to me that that people do this stuff, you know,
Speaker 8: and and time and time again, even you know, we
Speaker 8: see these young, young white guys, and I don't get
Speaker 8: the feeling he's mentally ill. I don't know. I don't
Speaker 8: think we know that yet there. I don't know if
Speaker 8: they're still in jury selection or where they are with
Speaker 8: this case. But I'm waiting to hear, you know, what
Speaker 8: is it? What is there anything? Is there any mitigating
Speaker 8: circumstance at all that would that would cause this kid
Speaker 8: to do this, because in some of these other cases
Speaker 8: where they go in and they shoot a bunch of people,
Speaker 8: oftentimes they're mentally ill. In this case, I don't, I
Speaker 8: don't know yet, but I didn't get that feeling.
Speaker 7: Well given the emotional response that regardless, I don't think
Speaker 7: he's going to get in and he's not going to
Speaker 7: be He's not going to be convicted as as someone
Speaker 7: that was insane. I don't think insanity defense will work
Speaker 7: in this case. Far too emotional.
Speaker 8: I don't know, you know, I don't know, I mean,
Speaker 8: and I don't think we know enough about what the
Speaker 8: defense is going to do. But he's got a really
Speaker 8: good lawyer. He's got a very the guy who is
Speaker 8: representing him. I think it just maybe just the federal case.
Speaker 8: I'm not sure if he has a different lawyer for
Speaker 8: the state case. He was I think he was trying
Speaker 8: to remember I quoted him in the Pee Wee Gaskins story,
Speaker 8: I think, but I don't remember if he was his
Speaker 8: lawyer or just one of the people who was quoted.
Speaker 8: But he's an expert. You know, he's a death penalty
Speaker 8: expert in South Carolina. So he's got a great lawyer.
Speaker 8: So we'll see what We'll see what his lawyer does
Speaker 8: for him. I'm just really curious to know, you know,
Speaker 8: is there anything that would you know, explain a little
Speaker 8: bit more other than he just hated these hated black people.
Speaker 8: You know, that's that's an overwhelming that just makes no
Speaker 8: sense to me. But what can I tell you case?
Speaker 8: This makes sense to me. They're all just crazy.
Speaker 7: If he's going to be if he's an excellent lawyer,
Speaker 7: which he is, then he's going to plumb the depths
Speaker 7: of possibilities on the defense because he doesn't. Number one,
Speaker 7: he and other people don't believe in the death penalty
Speaker 7: itself anyway, and this is part of it. And why
Speaker 7: then that's part of taking the case as well. Right,
Speaker 7: talk about another incredible case. Let's talk about the update,
Speaker 7: the new edition and the new developments in the dead
Speaker 7: Reckoning case, the Skylar DeLeon and murder of Tom and
Speaker 7: Jackie Hawks. Tell us a little bit about what is
Speaker 7: the new development and the reason for the new edition.
Speaker 8: To talk about that. So I go way back with
Speaker 8: this case, this case I spent five years working on
Speaker 8: the original edition of this book, which is I think
Speaker 8: probably more time that I've spent on any book so far.
Speaker 8: There were three trials. I had to drive, you know,
Speaker 8: two hours each way up in Orange County. I live
Speaker 8: in San Diego County. Skyler de Leone at the time
Speaker 8: of the trial was living as a man, and he
Speaker 8: would come to court over time looking more and more effeminate.
Speaker 8: He came to court one time wearing a woman's jail jumpsuit.
Speaker 8: He started wearing mascara, he started, you know, looking more,
Speaker 8: putting some stuff in his hair. He just looked more
Speaker 8: and more feminine, you know, and the prosecution and the
Speaker 8: law enforcement basically just laughed and said, you know, he's
Speaker 8: just trying to get attention. He's just trying to act
Speaker 8: crazy to get sympathy. They you know, it's very It
Speaker 8: put me in a kind of a weird situation because
Speaker 8: as a reporter working for a newspaper for most of
Speaker 8: my career up until I became an author, you know,
Speaker 8: you have to be really sensitive to the LGBT community.
Speaker 8: You have to be sensitive to any kind of community
Speaker 8: that has its own people and its own issues, and
Speaker 8: when you get to covering a murderer who is an
Speaker 8: LGBT person. It puts me in a difficult situation because
Speaker 8: I want to be respectful and sensitive to the people
Speaker 8: who are not killers who are LGBT and or transgender,
Speaker 8: and I feel like sometimes people just want to attack
Speaker 8: people who are killers regardless. And so this took me
Speaker 8: into a different kind of an area, and I've had
Speaker 8: to tread very carefully to not upset the victim's family
Speaker 8: members and not upset my sources, who you know, to
Speaker 8: this day still want to believe that, you know, people
Speaker 8: who are in prison don't have any rights. Well, the
Speaker 8: update is all about Skuylar de Leone transitioning essentially on
Speaker 8: death row into a woman, at least so far, just
Speaker 8: with hormones. But California, in the federal court, there is
Speaker 8: a judge who granted two different inmates in two different lawsuits,
Speaker 8: granted gender reassignment surgery that the state was going to
Speaker 8: have to pay for. And so I'm trying to make
Speaker 8: this short, but basically, the because of these two decisions,
Speaker 8: and in the first case, the inmate they was up
Speaker 8: for parole and for the seventh time they'd rejected transgender
Speaker 8: born man turned you know, transition to a woman in prison,
Speaker 8: just like Skuyler. She on the seventh try, after the
Speaker 8: judge had granted the surgery, the parole board said, oh,
Speaker 8: we're going to let you out. So that meant the
Speaker 8: state didn't have to do the surgery. No precedent was set.
Speaker 8: They released her, so she'd have to go pay for
Speaker 8: the surgery on her own. That's fine, you know, That's
Speaker 8: how government works, I guess. And it was a tricky situation.
Speaker 8: Came up again, there was another lawsuit and the same
Speaker 8: thing in a different different prisoner, same judge again granted
Speaker 8: the surgery. Now, I always take this as a constitutional issue.
Speaker 8: It's not a personal thing. I am not sympathizing with killers.
Speaker 8: I just want to make that clear because I've lost
Speaker 8: friends on Facebook over this where people feel like I'm,
Speaker 8: you know, put wishing for Skuyler to get this surgery.
Speaker 8: I'm not. I'm just stating what the law says, what
Speaker 8: the courts have ruled, and that is, we have a constitution.
Speaker 8: We we have a constitution that demands that we treat
Speaker 8: prisoners with They still do have certain rights. Even though
Speaker 8: people who are victims and their victims' families feel like
Speaker 8: they shouldn't have any rights. They do still have rights
Speaker 8: under the Eighth Amendment. They have a right to quote
Speaker 8: unquote adequate medical care. So basically, the Department of Justice
Speaker 8: has actually weighed in on this and said that transgender
Speaker 8: medical care really does need to be applied fairly to inmates,
Speaker 8: just the same as it is in the community. So
Speaker 8: that's why this judge did this. These people are trying
Speaker 8: to cut off their genitals, they're trying to commit suicide
Speaker 8: in prison, they're getting raped, et cetera, et cetera, and
Speaker 8: under you know, there's another amendment to the Constitution about
Speaker 8: you know, cruel and unusual punishment, you're not allowed to
Speaker 8: That's why we have reporters witnessing executions, you know, to
Speaker 8: make sure that they are treated humanly when the state
Speaker 8: executes them. So in this case, even though Skylar's on
Speaker 8: death row, Skylar and Skyler killed in order to get
Speaker 8: money to pay for this surgery. So that's that's the
Speaker 8: part about this case that makes people even more angry
Speaker 8: is that there is now a policy in California prisons
Speaker 8: because of this judge making these rulings. The state prison
Speaker 8: system decided, you know, we don't want this decided in
Speaker 8: the courts over and over again. We're just gonna We're
Speaker 8: going to create a policy whereby these inmates can apply
Speaker 8: to have this surgery, and if they meet the criteria,
Speaker 8: they can get the surgery. But we're not going to
Speaker 8: grant it to everyone. And there's gonna be criteria, and
Speaker 8: in those criteria, and this may be. You know. The
Speaker 8: reason I did the update was because I did a
Speaker 8: magazine story and I went and visited Skyler up at
Speaker 8: San Quentin and talked with her for two and a
Speaker 8: half flowers. I was not allowed to use anything from
Speaker 8: the interview because her lawyer immediately sent me a letter
Speaker 8: and said, she's not competent to grant an interview. She's
Speaker 8: not mentally competent. I'm like, okay, seemed competent to me,
Speaker 8: but anyway, I wasn't allowed to use that. So I
Speaker 8: was allowed to observe. I could see she had been
Speaker 8: she had cut her arms repeatedly. There were these big,
Speaker 8: giant purple welts that I could see where she'd cut herself,
Speaker 8: tried to kill herself with various objects. So I saw
Speaker 8: the scars. I saw. I saw that she seemed happier,
Speaker 8: and she's and more at peace, and she's more you know,
Speaker 8: she's medicated and you know, so here she is on
Speaker 8: death row, living as a woman. And so that's what
Speaker 8: the update's about. It's basically what's going on with her,
Speaker 8: what's going on with the policy, and that the fact
Speaker 8: is now she wants to take advantage of this policy.
Speaker 8: But the crux of it is, Okay, if she is
Speaker 8: mentally incompetent, she may not be able to get the surgery,
Speaker 8: because you have to be able to be competent in
Speaker 8: order to say I want to have life changing surgery.
Speaker 8: So that's one reason why she might not get it.
Speaker 8: And another reason is under the criteria, they look at
Speaker 8: the circumstances of the crime visa the surgery, and in
Speaker 8: this case, since she killed the Hawks in order to
Speaker 8: get money to pay for surgery that Skyler had already scheduled,
Speaker 8: that may be another disqualifying factor. And so those are
Speaker 8: the constitutional issues, and those are the criteria, and those
Speaker 8: are the reasons why Skylar might not qualify. So I'm
Speaker 8: just trying to be as objective as possible, still trying
Speaker 8: to be sensitive to other transgender people who might want
Speaker 8: to get the surgery who are not in prison.
Speaker 7: So yeah, I understand fascinating stuff. Though. The other thing
Speaker 7: is is that, what do you think, just as a journalist,
Speaker 7: the likelihood of Skyler ever meeting that criteria, giving the
Speaker 7: attitude about his about the state paying for this, and
Speaker 7: the idea that just a general hate on for Skylar
Speaker 7: DeLeon period.
Speaker 8: Yeah. I mean, the thing is this was a really heinous,
Speaker 8: heinous murder, you know, and so what the victims are saying,
Speaker 8: the victims' families are saying, you know, this is heinous,
Speaker 8: and you know, it's not that they don't feel like
Speaker 8: other transgender people should be able to get the surgery,
Speaker 8: but Skyler killed to get this surgery already, So why
Speaker 8: should Skyler be able to get what she wants in
Speaker 8: prison that doesn't especially when she's supposed to be on
Speaker 8: death row and it is supposed to be executed, but
Speaker 8: because California hasn't executed anyone in ten years, they just
Speaker 8: feel like it's even it's like adding, you know, insult
Speaker 8: to injury, even beyond the point of you know, of comprehension,
Speaker 8: and it just doesn't seem fair. And you know, nobody
Speaker 8: I talked to except for one person who was going
Speaker 8: to visit Skylar. Nobody dollars should be used to pay
Speaker 8: for this kind of thing, but this is not You
Speaker 8: don't get a choice on how your taxes are spent.
Speaker 8: You know, there are courts and there are judges and policies.
Speaker 8: And I was you know, I was asked, well, is
Speaker 8: there someone I can write a letter to and object?
Speaker 8: And you know, I basically quoted the monitor who's in
Speaker 8: charge of you know, California's mental health system and medical
Speaker 8: systems were really screwed up. They had a lawsuit some
Speaker 8: years ago that I covered when I was still a reporter.
Speaker 8: But they have to have a federal agency come in
Speaker 8: and oversee some of this stuff. And I can't remember
Speaker 8: if it's mental health only or medical only, but anyway,
Speaker 8: they just said, you know, this is a policy. And
Speaker 8: you know, even though we sympathize with the victims' families,
Speaker 8: you know, not everybody's going to get granted this surgery.
Speaker 8: But you know, we have to go buy these criteria
Speaker 8: which are applied in the general community just as they
Speaker 8: are here because that's the law.
Speaker 7: So yeah, fascinating stuff. I want to thank you very
Speaker 7: much Caitlyn for coming on and talking about your notorious
Speaker 7: USA series Love Gone Wrong, and thank you very much
Speaker 7: for the date on the update on Dead Reckoning and
Speaker 7: scyther DeLeon. Thank you very much, Thank you very much
Speaker 7: for this interview.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I appreciate getting a chance to talk about all
Speaker 8: this stuff so well.
Speaker 7: It's always fascinating to have you come on and talk
Speaker 7: about these amazing stories and so congratulations on another great series,
Speaker 7: Love Gone Wrong, and thank you for coming on. And
Speaker 7: hope we'll talk to you again real soon, now that
Speaker 7: you've let the cat out of the bag about mister Manson.
Speaker 8: Okay, great, I'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 7: Okay, good night.
Speaker 6: Thank you.
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