WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:09.400 Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys 2 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:12.919 are your favorites, so like to say subscribe and rade 3 00:00:13.080 --> 00:00:20.640 it five star s and me rights on yesterday and listening, 4 00:00:20.679 --> 00:00:24.879 oh watching always keep its watching. 5 00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:30.399 And now your hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo Fay. 6 00:00:31.280 --> 00:00:32.560 Hey, Bobo, how you doing today? 7 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:34.039 All right? How's going? Cliff? 8 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:38.679 Pretty awesome? I'm super excited. I have one of our 9 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:42.000 favorite bigfooters and people in general on the line with 10 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:43.320 this for today's podcast. 11 00:00:44.079 --> 00:00:45.880 I know who it is, and I'm pretty stuck. The 12 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:46.359 guy's a. 13 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:49.920 Legend, absolutely had written one of my favorite books on 14 00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:53.479 the subject because it's so out of context for the subject. 15 00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:55.719 But instead of just teasing and stuff like that, I 16 00:00:55.719 --> 00:00:58.119 want to jump right into this because I know that 17 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:00.000 an hour or even two hours is going to be 18 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:01.960 too short of a time to speak to the gentleman 19 00:01:02.560 --> 00:01:05.959 Bobo and everybody else listening right now, please welcome doctor 20 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:09.200 Robert Piles, or Bob as we call him, Bob Pile, 21 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:13.560 who wrote Where Bigfoot Walks Beyond the Dark Divide and 22 00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:17.719 has a new movie out where Actually David Cross, you 23 00:01:17.719 --> 00:01:20.239 know that dude from OSAs Show, arrested development and a 24 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:23.920 million other things. The comedian actually plays this gentleman right here, 25 00:01:24.239 --> 00:01:26.640 Bob Pile Bob, welcome to Bigfoot and Beyond. 26 00:01:27.680 --> 00:01:30.400 Thank you so much, Cliff and Bobo, Hi, do you too. 27 00:01:30.439 --> 00:01:33.200 It's a pleasure. I'm I am a It's a great 28 00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:35.640 cliche to say one of your biggest fans, but in 29 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:39.519 both of your cases, it's absolutely true, and it's an honor, 30 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:42.159 beyond honor to be on the podcast. 31 00:01:42.200 --> 00:01:45.879 We do both speakings. Very nice of you to say, Bob, 32 00:01:45.959 --> 00:01:46.920 thank you so much for. 33 00:01:46.799 --> 00:01:48.959 Having That's the thing that's been said about us ever, Cliff. 34 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:52.879 That's the thing about Bob. Whenever he says anything, it's 35 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:55.400 the nicest thing anyone's ever said. It's like every word 36 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:57.879 that drops from his mouth is like a honey wrapped 37 00:01:57.879 --> 00:01:58.359 in gold. 38 00:01:58.959 --> 00:02:01.480 I'll tell you this, Cliff. Life is too short for flattery, 39 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:05.560 So I never give false praise and never give false oaps. 40 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:08.400 So don't expect that from me. So if you hear 41 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:10.199 it from me, you can take you to the bank. 42 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:14.479 Well well, Bob, for people who don't know who you are, 43 00:02:14.520 --> 00:02:16.080 and because we have a lot of listeners who are 44 00:02:16.159 --> 00:02:18.199 kind of new to the Bigfoot field, or perhaps you know, 45 00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:20.360 haven't been stewing in it for the last few decades, 46 00:02:20.400 --> 00:02:23.759 like Bobo and I and you have. Let's start a 47 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:26.439 little bit with like how you became acquainted with the 48 00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:29.759 subject in general? Is this like a lifelong interest or 49 00:02:29.919 --> 00:02:32.000 did it? Was it spurred by something? Or how did 50 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:34.520 how did? How did you become one of us? 51 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:36.919 Well, it's not quite a lifelong Sure, that's a good 52 00:02:36.919 --> 00:02:40.919 place to start clifts. It's not lifelong. I am a 53 00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:45.599 lifelong naturalist, an observer of the natural world, although I 54 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.360 have to tell you that I don't consider there to 55 00:02:48.400 --> 00:02:51.120 be a fine line of any kind between humans and 56 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:53.159 the rest of nature. And so when I say to 57 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:55.919 the natural world, I include people in that, and naturally 58 00:02:56.080 --> 00:03:00.560 include what I consider to be likely our closest living relative. 59 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:04.159 So they all run together. But my first attention to 60 00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:07.639 natural history as a boy in growing up in Colorado 61 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:12.000 was seashells. Now that sounds counterintuitive, You're right. It was 62 00:03:12.039 --> 00:03:15.719 a stupid place to be a young concologist in Colorado, 63 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.840 and diminishing returns quickly set in after I spent all 64 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:24.000 my allowance buying seashells at the Denver Museum of Natural History, 65 00:03:24.759 --> 00:03:27.520 I belonged to the Shell of the Month Club and 66 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:30.479 so on and so forth. But there weren't many seashells around. 67 00:03:30.560 --> 00:03:34.120 I've soon discovered there were more butterflies around. I mean, 68 00:03:34.120 --> 00:03:36.360 there weren't any more seashells around than there were Bigfoot 69 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.879 and there were Colorado in nineteen fifties and sixties, But 70 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:43.639 there were a lot of butterflies. So very early on, 71 00:03:43.719 --> 00:03:47.039 at the age of eleven on, I became a lepidopterist, 72 00:03:47.080 --> 00:03:50.639 a person who is serious in his or her or 73 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:56.280 their pursuit of butterflies. And butterflies were reading my big 74 00:03:56.319 --> 00:03:59.280 window on the world. And the other part of the 75 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.919 window on the world old ditch outside Colorado, and that 76 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:05.879 ditch was my my wilderness. Got out of my subdivision 77 00:04:05.919 --> 00:04:08.759 out on this old, tangly wet ditch, and that's where 78 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:11.039 the life was. That's where the butterflies were, and of 79 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.280 course that's where the imagination went. And I always imagined 80 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:17.079 that I might see something that nobody else had seen. 81 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.759 Occasionally I'd find a rare butterfly, and that was pretty satisfying. 82 00:04:21.199 --> 00:04:22.879 But later on, when I went to college up in 83 00:04:22.879 --> 00:04:28.959 the Pacific Northwest, I started hearing about something that really 84 00:04:29.079 --> 00:04:32.199 might be out there that most people had not seen, 85 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:37.920 and that was Sasquatch, Bigfoot, oh mah se Latis. I 86 00:04:38.040 --> 00:04:41.639 had the most wonderful introduction to the subject. Now, mind you. 87 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.480 Prior to that, I'd read some of the some of 88 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.439 the early crypto books that a lot of boys read, 89 00:04:47.439 --> 00:04:50.920 that Ivan Sanderson and so on and so forth, and 90 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.000 the Yeti, the early Yeti things and so on. So 91 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:57.720 I had an interest, but it wasn't greater than an 92 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:01.839 interest in many other things until I took three wonderful 93 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:08.240 classes at the University of Washington from Bill Holme. Bill 94 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:13.199 was a Cherokee Norwegian dude who became a quak Utile Indian. 95 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:17.560 Through the Hamits dances and his great study, he became 96 00:05:17.600 --> 00:05:22.920 the greatest authority on Northwest Native American art and culture anywhere, 97 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:26.560 all the way from the Athabascans to the Hoopa, through 98 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:31.240 the Ballabellas and Bellaiculas and Macaws and Nukahs and everybody else. 99 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:33.279 He knew their art, he knew their culture, and he 100 00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:36.639 knew the people, and tot three classes in it, one 101 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:40.199 on totems and carving some masks, one on their flat art, 102 00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:44.639 and one on their dance and tradition and lucky boy, 103 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:48.160 I got to take all those classes, and one of 104 00:05:48.199 --> 00:05:52.040 the strongest elements in my memory from them was the 105 00:05:52.120 --> 00:05:56.560 presence of the Bigfoot cognates and all those cultures do 106 00:05:56.720 --> 00:06:01.759 Naquah Book was merging in bak Baquali, Nuxi Way, and 107 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:05.759 all the others, and how powerful the Bigfoot traditions were 108 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:10.480 and remain in those Native American cultures, those first people's cultures. 109 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:13.920 And here was the thing that really got me, Cliff, 110 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:19.000 was when Bill told us that not only did every 111 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:25.240 single Northwest Indian culture have these stories and traditions, but 112 00:06:25.720 --> 00:06:28.839 they were considered to be part of their natural history, 113 00:06:29.360 --> 00:06:34.480 not necessarily restricted to their spirit world. Along with set seed, 114 00:06:34.639 --> 00:06:37.199 the sea serpent in Thunderbird. Of course the two run 115 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:40.879 together for a lot of Native Americans, but they also 116 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:44.800 have us a recognition of the animals that they encountered 117 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:47.680 regularly in the woods, skunk and weasel and raven and 118 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:51.199 barn orca in the water, and Bigfoot was among those. 119 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:54.240 The other thing he told me was that he did 120 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:58.040 not know a single Indian in the woods or in 121 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.279 the waters that is still living in the villages, living 122 00:07:00.360 --> 00:07:03.279 in the countryside from Alert Bay all the way to 123 00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:08.439 the Hoopa, who did not have a personal belief not 124 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:11.759 only that the animal lives among them, but that we, 125 00:07:12.680 --> 00:07:18.720 the whites, are foolish to even ask the question of 126 00:07:18.800 --> 00:07:22.199 them does it exist as a real animal. So those 127 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:27.439 things made a powerful impact on me, followed by encountering 128 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:30.399 Peter Burn a few years later. Peter had an enormous 129 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:34.120 impact on me, and then it went from there. My 130 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:36.519 own studies grew out of that, and we'll get to 131 00:07:36.560 --> 00:07:39.399 that later. I'm sure that was my beginning, really was 132 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:42.519 the early crypto books, followed by being up here in 133 00:07:42.600 --> 00:07:47.519 the Northwest and then going to build Holmes classes, and 134 00:07:47.560 --> 00:07:50.879 then on Halloween night camping on the snows of Mount 135 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.920 Saint Helen's ten years before the eruption in nineteen seventy 136 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:59.680 and hearing the cries all through the night that I 137 00:07:59.720 --> 00:08:02.920 believe we're likely the cries of telatics. 138 00:08:03.560 --> 00:08:06.000 So it really it sounds like your interest is born 139 00:08:06.040 --> 00:08:08.319 in the same way with many others, kind of just 140 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:13.879 having a curiosity about the natural world combined with frequent 141 00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:17.160 trips to the library. I think rober apps that certainly 142 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:21.160 the beginning, yes, yeah, and then add to that an 143 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:23.720 influential person or two to kind of guide you along 144 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:26.560 the way, and then finally some personal experience on the 145 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:27.120 end of it all. 146 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.000 Yeah, I expect this does pretty well mirror a lot 147 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:33.919 of your guests experience in the generals is not the specifics. 148 00:08:34.360 --> 00:08:37.639 Yeah, But to just to be clear, though you're you're expert. 149 00:08:38.360 --> 00:08:42.200 You are an expert in butterflies and moths, right, I 150 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.799 mean that's what you have a doctorate, It is that correct? 151 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:48.720 Correct, I'm one of the I don't mean to sound 152 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.399 like it's some kind of an elite thing. It's just 153 00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:54.240 another trade. But I do happen to be one of 154 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:59.679 the few trained biologists in our field I think, I 155 00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:01.879 mean they're there are a lot of good biologists. There's 156 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:06.279 a heck of a lot of magnificent autodidactic biologists and 157 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:11.519 naturalists in cryptozoology. There aren't many who have had the opportunity, 158 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:14.519 the great privilege that I've had to have a pretty 159 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:20.440 rich academic background in biology, and in my case, it's 160 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:25.679 centered on ecology and ultimately on the ecology of rare 161 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:29.639 and endangered species of butterflies as my thesis project. But 162 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:32.799 I've always been a general naturalist, and my training was 163 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:38.279 in general natural history and biology, and then ultimately in 164 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:39.840 butterflies and into writing. 165 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:42.960 Well, that's one of the things about Bigfoot that I 166 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:47.240 find so accommodating for the lay person and other scientists 167 00:09:47.279 --> 00:09:51.799 and just people in general, is that Bigfoot isn't it 168 00:09:51.840 --> 00:09:57.240 isn't exclusive to one discipline. It's so multidisciplinary. And one 169 00:09:57.320 --> 00:09:59.600 might think that while we're studying butterflies, what does that 170 00:09:59.600 --> 00:10:02.559 have to do with sasquatches. Well, I mean to understand butterflies, 171 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:05.440 you have to understand the ecology. You have understand seasonality 172 00:10:05.480 --> 00:10:09.120 of animals and all sorts of stuff. I mean, I mean, 173 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:10.879 look at me, I have a degree in music. What 174 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:13.559 good is that? You know? Like, well, I incorporate that 175 00:10:13.720 --> 00:10:15.720 into my big foot stuff when I get I. 176 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:19.600 Can't imagine many many degrees that would be more valuable 177 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:22.320 than that in the field in which audiology is so 178 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:24.240 very important, right. 179 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.039 Right, I mean, I guess I could have majored in 180 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:29.320 something like you know, painlea anthropology, but you know, then 181 00:10:29.320 --> 00:10:32.240 i'd be over in you know, in Eastern Africa somewhere 182 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.039 digging rocks, rocks up aground, or Eastern Idaho. 183 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:38.399 Or Eastern Idaho. That's true, But you're absolutely right, these 184 00:10:38.440 --> 00:10:41.120 fields are they've run together. I mean, really, isn't that 185 00:10:41.159 --> 00:10:44.120 what we should be? I mean, I've been freelance for 186 00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:46.080 most of my life. I never took a hold in 187 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:48.080 a job too well. I've been an academic, I've been 188 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:50.919 a professor, I've been lots of other things. I've done 189 00:10:50.919 --> 00:10:52.200 a lot of teaching and lecturing, this. 190 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:55.080 That and the other. But I've never I've never been 191 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:57.919 one to sit in one job for too long. So 192 00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:00.679 I've been freelanced for a long time. And I consider 193 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:04.440 myself I like the term acket of independent scholar. I 194 00:11:04.559 --> 00:11:07.559 like the independence of it, But I also like the 195 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:10.960 whole question of scholarship going forth in the world as 196 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:14.279 a perpetual student, which is exactly what I think we do, 197 00:11:14.639 --> 00:11:17.080 and it's exactly what I think you two guys are 198 00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:21.440 all about, our scholars of the wilderness and its inhabitants. 199 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:26.399 So butterflies were just as good a portal for an 200 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.759 interest in Bigfoot as I think any other subject might 201 00:11:29.799 --> 00:11:32.000 have been. These are animals that live by the same 202 00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:37.559 constraints and ecological opportunities as any other living things, and 203 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:42.480 so you study those constraints and opportunities with whatever group 204 00:11:42.559 --> 00:11:46.600 of animals you work on, and they're applicable to others 205 00:11:46.600 --> 00:11:50.000 if you apply the broader principles. You know, for years 206 00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:53.720 I went up every March until this year of the 207 00:11:53.799 --> 00:11:58.679 Germ and gave a couple of evenings lectures or talks, 208 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:04.080 conversations really with sixth graders at an outdoor school at 209 00:12:04.080 --> 00:12:07.639 the Cispas Center in Washington, which is pretty cool because 210 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:10.840 that's where I began my trek for crossing the Dark Divide. 211 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:15.919 But those kids were hungry for this information, of course, 212 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.399 but I wanted them to have their vegetables as well 213 00:12:18.440 --> 00:12:21.080 as their desserts. So I'd give them one night of 214 00:12:21.120 --> 00:12:24.279 butterflies and one night of Bigfoot, and then I would 215 00:12:24.279 --> 00:12:26.639 put them together and I'd say, now, you tell me, 216 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:29.120 when I've taught you all these things about butterflies and 217 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:35.200 they're seemingly miraculous metamorphosis, you tell me that butterflies are 218 00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:38.720 not just as weird as Bigfoot. In other words, that 219 00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:41.440 Bigfoot isn't just as natural as butterflies. 220 00:12:41.879 --> 00:12:43.279 Right. And you know, one of the things that I 221 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:46.240 think I appreciate about you, Bob, is that you kind 222 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:48.159 of I don't know if the word transcend is right, 223 00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:52.120 I'll say it transcend the role of scientists again, transcend 224 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:56.320 doesn't work because really you're rolling it back to before 225 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:00.960 there were scientists, because you're a naturalist, and back in 226 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:05.440 the eighteen hundreds, before science was a thing, really there 227 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.960 were naturalists studying the natural world. And eventually these naturalists 228 00:13:09.960 --> 00:13:12.679 became specialized, and that's how science was kind of born 229 00:13:12.679 --> 00:13:15.200 in some ways, these various arms. But really you're a 230 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:18.320 student of the world, the natural world, and you happen 231 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:21.279 to specialize, you know, in mods and butterflies, But really 232 00:13:21.279 --> 00:13:24.919 you're a student of the natural world with a curiosity 233 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:28.000 that will never be satisfied. And I think that is 234 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.279 just so cool, And that's part of the reason we all, 235 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:33.200 Bobo and I and everybody else listening are interested in 236 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:36.120 the sasquatch thing because of the mystery of it all, 237 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:41.000 just to know that the world is not as not 238 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:44.240 a solved puzzle. It is full of wonder and grace 239 00:13:44.440 --> 00:13:47.440 and beauty waiting to be discovered. And I think you 240 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:49.360 and your writings really embody a lot of that. 241 00:13:49.679 --> 00:13:50.840 Oh, thank you so much. 242 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:53.080 And then where you learn just the more questions you get. 243 00:13:53.120 --> 00:13:55.320 To Tigos, it's exponential, it. 244 00:13:55.200 --> 00:13:57.440 Is exponentialist, And to Bobo, it just goes on and 245 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:01.519 on every question asks more question, every answer asks even 246 00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:02.320 more questions. 247 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:04.200 And of course you're also a poet. 248 00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:08.600 Well yes, but before you get to the poetry, let 249 00:14:08.600 --> 00:14:11.519 me just say what you've just said is beautifully put. 250 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:13.519 I wish I had it all in print in front 251 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:16.720 of me. I guess I'll have the recording that deserves 252 00:14:16.840 --> 00:14:20.559 being passed on the way you embodied all that. But 253 00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:24.440 I'm so glad to see you re honor the word naturalist, 254 00:14:25.240 --> 00:14:27.200 because that word sort of fell out of fashion. But 255 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:31.840 you're quite right. I'm Humboldt and Asa Gray and Legacy 256 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:36.440 and Audubon and all the others right up to Darwin, 257 00:14:37.080 --> 00:14:41.000 the chief naturalist of all they were naturalists, and yet 258 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.600 that word fell out of favor, particularly between the Wars. 259 00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:48.960 It was really's spot Neck that did it. In used 260 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:51.639 to be the American nature study movement was active all 261 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:55.799 over the country, and learning something about our local flora 262 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.720 and fauna was a regular part of elementary education in 263 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:04.240 this country. And then as things began to become more specialized, 264 00:15:04.679 --> 00:15:08.480 more technological, that began to fade a little bit in 265 00:15:08.519 --> 00:15:11.879 favor of hard science. And then between the Wars, when 266 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:16.080 there was such an emphasis on armaments and instruments of 267 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:20.159 warfare and hard science. Driven by that, it became even 268 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:22.679 more so. And then when sput Mac went into orbit 269 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:27.279 in fifty six, I think it was the first Russian satellite, Well, 270 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.240 that really was the nail in the coffin of natural 271 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:32.960 history in the schools because we really had to catch 272 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:36.080 up with the Russians on science and the space race, 273 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:39.919 and so natural history went by the bye in the 274 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:44.360 schools until environmental education came along later. And by that 275 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:46.720 time they had lost a lot of the basics of 276 00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.039 the flora and fauna because the teachers didn't know it anymore. 277 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:53.519 And by the way, Cliff and Bobo, during that time 278 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:56.440 when I was at the University of Washington as a 279 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.360 lucky student, there were a lot of good naturalists left 280 00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:04.159 on the faculty, but they were all being farmed out, 281 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:08.720 retired off to the pasture, and not being rehired in 282 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:11.159 favor of all hard science. The hard science was good, 283 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:13.919 but it was done at the expense of the naturalists. 284 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.519 I called the time of the purge of the naturalists, 285 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:19.240 and I was one of the last students to come 286 00:16:19.240 --> 00:16:22.120 in to really get the advantage of all those old 287 00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:26.799 naturalists on campus. Which let me put those great stories 288 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:30.200 of Bill Holme and the Indians into the context of 289 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.159 a lot of different kinds of plants and animals. So yes, 290 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:37.840 I have been always a general student of natural history, 291 00:16:38.120 --> 00:16:42.679 and I deeply, deeply admire and am grateful for the 292 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:45.720 legacy that we have all the way back to Darwin 293 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:46.919 and everybody before. 294 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:50.919 It seems like a studying natural history, it's just a 295 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:56.000 lot more organic way to move forward, especially especially with 296 00:16:56.039 --> 00:16:58.720 the study of sasquatches and other things like that, because 297 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:03.080 science has a reputation, and it's certainly possibly even a 298 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:06.079 deserved reputation of being a little cold, shall we say, 299 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:09.720 you know, a little perhaps reductionists like you know, it's 300 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:12.799 instead of figuring, like looking at a clock, we've got 301 00:17:12.839 --> 00:17:14.759 to take that clock apart in order to figure out 302 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:17.839 how it works. Whereas if you study natural history, you 303 00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:20.440 see how that clock fits into this environment and what 304 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:24.480 role it plays in a larger scale. And I think 305 00:17:24.599 --> 00:17:31.440 perhaps studying things as a natural historian might serve what 306 00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:33.880 am I trying to say, I might serve the subject better, 307 00:17:34.039 --> 00:17:37.640 especially when we're dealing with subjects like sasquatches or people 308 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:41.799 or something that is sentient and it certainly has emotions 309 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:45.440 and fits in and it has relationships, as opposed to 310 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:48.519 let's let's, you know, dissect the arm to see what 311 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:50.759 how thick the tendon is what. 312 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:53.119 We don't need one or the other, dew were really 313 00:17:54.079 --> 00:17:56.799 in fact, I think we do need both. Science is reductionists, 314 00:17:56.839 --> 00:18:01.039 and that's not necessarily a bad word. We don't ever 315 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.720 get a bridge that works or a rocket that works. 316 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:08.279 That might be better if we don't reduce the elements 317 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:12.200 to their basics and understand how they work. The reduction 318 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:16.160 isn't in itself a bad thing. When it becomes negative 319 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:18.359 is when it becomes the whole picture. 320 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:19.599 Yeah, a little out of balance. 321 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:26.599 Perhaps the breadth and the encompassing holistic view that a 322 00:18:26.680 --> 00:18:30.400 naturalist has, which is one that the mountain man had, 323 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:33.839 and it's one that the wise women and the women 324 00:18:34.079 --> 00:18:37.680 with the knowledge of the herbs add, and it's the 325 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:42.400 knowledge that takes in the hole that's absolutely essential too. 326 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.720 And so rather than setting them up against one another, 327 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.720 which I know you're not doing, we really need both. 328 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:55.640 We need a hard, intelligent, skeptical, critical and rigorous view 329 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:58.519 of the natural world. And by the way, I had 330 00:18:58.519 --> 00:19:00.920 to come back and do some more medial on all 331 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:05.799 that because I so much rejected it in college and 332 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:08.880 went within natural history. In order to do graduate work 333 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:11.319 and to do a doctorate an e college, I had 334 00:19:11.319 --> 00:19:13.519 to come back and re educate myself on some of 335 00:19:13.559 --> 00:19:17.000 the hard stuff that I had blown off. That necessary too, 336 00:19:17.000 --> 00:19:19.640 But if you put it in the context, as you say, 337 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:24.440 of the broader natural world through its working parts, yes, 338 00:19:24.519 --> 00:19:29.000 but also through the sensations and the emotions, then you 339 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:32.599 have a much more meaningful whole. And that's where we 340 00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:34.920 get to the poetry. And that's why, yes, I am 341 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.480 a poet as well, because I feel in fact, I 342 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:41.039 think I don't mean better in the sense of quality, 343 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:44.599 but I think I'm probably more naturally a poet than 344 00:19:44.599 --> 00:19:48.640 a scientist actually, because I find it impossible to distance 345 00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:55.599 my emotions and my reactions and my opinions. Fortunately, as 346 00:19:55.640 --> 00:19:58.599 a poet and an essayst and a novelist, I don't 347 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:01.240 have to do that. On the other hand, when I 348 00:20:01.279 --> 00:20:05.279 put on the headgear of the scientists and the journalists, 349 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:07.680 which I don't do very much. I still do some 350 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:12.440 science with butterflies, and I still do write some material 351 00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:16.039 that I try to err on the objective side. Then 352 00:20:16.079 --> 00:20:18.079 of course, I have to abide by the very same 353 00:20:18.599 --> 00:20:22.039 principles of rigor that a scientists or our journalist would 354 00:20:22.039 --> 00:20:25.880 have to, you know, if it really serves us well, 355 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:28.319 and I know this would be Bobo's experience out in 356 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:31.680 the woods. To have more than one arrow in our quiver, 357 00:20:32.400 --> 00:20:35.279 we need to be broader than narrow. We need to 358 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:37.960 be we need to take a broad view instead of 359 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:40.000 be single minded about these things. 360 00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:44.759 We don't want my opium. You're a poet, Yes, A 361 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:47.240 challenge you to do a slam poetry competition or done 362 00:20:47.240 --> 00:20:47.960 with this interview? 363 00:20:49.680 --> 00:20:51.839 Oh, I'm sure you knock me down on that. I've 364 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.279 never really done slam because I don't know. Slam has 365 00:20:55.279 --> 00:20:58.519 a competitive aspect to it that somehow strikes me as 366 00:20:58.519 --> 00:21:00.799 wrong for poetry. But I enjoy watching it, don't get 367 00:21:00.799 --> 00:21:02.480 me wrong, But I don't know how I do. I 368 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:05.680 also don't do very well and remembering poetry. I usually 369 00:21:05.720 --> 00:21:10.279 have to read my own scripts. But poetry is important 370 00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:13.440 to me. I've got several published collections of poetry. I've 371 00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:16.319 just come out with a new one that's entirely about 372 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.480 the Columbia River. There are forty four poems about the 373 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:22.960 Columbia River the Lower Columbia. The estuary part published together 374 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:26.319 with photographs that one of my favorite photographers, and it's 375 00:21:26.359 --> 00:21:28.519 given me a way to look at the river that 376 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:33.759 the science never has. Through the lens, the personal lens 377 00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:35.839 of the emotions. 378 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.200 Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and 379 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:43.000 Bobo will be right back after these messages. 380 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:50.319 Then value many different things about their appearance. 381 00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:51.960 But if you're a guy who really cares about your 382 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:55.359 hair and find that it's slowly going away or worse quickly, 383 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:57.920 you let me feeling discouraged when you look in the mirror, 384 00:21:58.160 --> 00:22:00.880 and that's where Hymns comes in. 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