1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,439
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peken Show.

2
00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:05,799
We are continuing the series. Hey, Thomas, how are you

3
00:00:05,879 --> 00:00:06,879
doing well?

4
00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:10,599
Speaker 2: I'm very well man. Thanks uh again for continuing this series.

5
00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,199
I'm very pleased. That's just how it's developed in terms

6
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:18,160
of our content. But I think the response has been incredible.

7
00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,440
When I want to think of Ray sincerely for being

8
00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,079
so kind in that regard, I I, uh, I that

9
00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,559
that kind of feedback is essential, and it's been very constructive,

10
00:00:26,559 --> 00:00:30,320
and it's been overwhelmingly positive, and that means a great deal.

11
00:00:30,879 --> 00:00:33,920
And it also means I'm you know, we're doing things properly,

12
00:00:34,119 --> 00:00:37,840
and uh that's great. So I'm very very very pleased.

13
00:00:38,759 --> 00:00:41,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to be doing something right when people

14
00:00:41,399 --> 00:00:44,000
are like getting mad if you don't put out an episode.

15
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Well it's all though too, like this is

16
00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,200
I've been this is literally the fifth time I've been

17
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,679
the platform and from Twitter like and like anytime it

18
00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:55,119
seems like I'm making an impact, like they deplatform me.

19
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,520
So there's that too, but uh yeah, it's it's quite

20
00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,119
a bit more positive that people who are clamoring for

21
00:01:01,159 --> 00:01:03,479
more episodes and like I said that that that that

22
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:05,560
means a great deal to me man, like, I'm very

23
00:01:05,599 --> 00:01:06,799
honored by that because.

24
00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,439
Speaker 1: Well I got to catch up because I've only been

25
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:12,280
the platformed on Twitter four times.

26
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:17,519
Speaker 2: So oh you'll get my friend. But no, no, we

27
00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,280
like hitting aside though it uh you know, I plan

28
00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,480
to kind of transition the longer for him anyway, So

29
00:01:25,359 --> 00:01:27,239
you know, I'll drop or people can find me at

30
00:01:27,239 --> 00:01:28,719
the end of the show, not because I'm trying to

31
00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:32,000
be a shill, but uh, you know, you're You've got

32
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,959
a wide audience, and i'd uh, it's just an easy

33
00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,000
way for me to reach people or who are interested.

34
00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:40,680
And you know, it's about half the content I drop

35
00:01:40,719 --> 00:01:43,359
on there is is totally free, So there's that too.

36
00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,120
Speaker 1: But okay, yeah, I'll link to anything you want me

37
00:01:47,159 --> 00:01:47,519
to link to.

38
00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, I'll thank you, Pete, and I'll drop.

39
00:01:50,079 --> 00:01:56,280
That's a conclusion of this. But I think I think,

40
00:01:56,439 --> 00:01:59,439
uh yeah, I think I think we finished off. In

41
00:01:59,519 --> 00:02:03,599
ninety and thirty six, we were talking about uh, you know,

42
00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:08,599
mister Churchill getting access to Baldwin, I mean quite literally,

43
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,960
and uh you know how uh how the focus it

44
00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,360
had come to be and now church Will became kind

45
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,919
of a permanent thorn in the side, not just to Baldwin,

46
00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:23,560
but you know, in in in that of any establishment

47
00:02:23,599 --> 00:02:29,360
figure like Tory, labor or liberally opposed the you know,

48
00:02:29,439 --> 00:02:34,039
rearmament and a confrontational posture with Germany. So I think

49
00:02:34,039 --> 00:02:36,000
where I think where we left off was I pointed

50
00:02:36,039 --> 00:02:40,120
out that, uh, you know Churchill despite his kind of

51
00:02:40,199 --> 00:02:42,479
by this point, which is nineteen thirty six, despite his

52
00:02:42,599 --> 00:02:46,240
constant apologia for the Soviet Union and and it's kind

53
00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,759
of fervent, increasingly shrill, you know, hostility to Germany, and

54
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,639
these these confabulated figures and statistics that the focused group

55
00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,000
were submitting, is is actual data like always from undisclosed

56
00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,080
undisclosed and intelligence sources. Well, all this was going on,

57
00:03:03,159 --> 00:03:05,000
of course, and I I I don't want to derail

58
00:03:05,039 --> 00:03:09,000
listen to a tangent, but it's a matter of material

59
00:03:09,039 --> 00:03:13,680
significance to what was underway within the UK. You know,

60
00:03:13,719 --> 00:03:16,719
the the Spare Civil War was raging hard at this point,

61
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,240
and you know that was a real, uh that that

62
00:03:20,439 --> 00:03:24,719
impacted every culture and the continent, critical culture. I mean,

63
00:03:24,759 --> 00:03:26,680
in a in a way that really can't be overstated.

64
00:03:26,719 --> 00:03:31,319
It wasn't just a military quagmire for the for the Spaniards,

65
00:03:31,319 --> 00:03:35,159
and for the for the Iberian Peninsula generally, or you know,

66
00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,120
for the the UH the UH or for security and

67
00:03:39,159 --> 00:03:43,240
the Mediterranean. I mean, it truly, truly was a Veltonshong's creek.

68
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,919
I'm sure buttued that pronunciation, but you know it's really

69
00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,199
that's really where that's really there was a there was

70
00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:54,400
a collision of world views between between you know, the

71
00:03:54,439 --> 00:03:58,120
communists and UH and and their opponents all and sundry.

72
00:03:58,159 --> 00:03:59,960
You know, some of these people were fascists in the full.

73
00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,960
You know, there's Iron Guard volunteers from Romania. You know,

74
00:04:05,039 --> 00:04:07,879
you even had like Carlists like uh, you know, monarchist

75
00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,120
types in the ranks. You had, you had out now

76
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,680
you know, national socialists deployed UH with counter religion from

77
00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,319
Germany and UH. You know you had you obviously had

78
00:04:19,319 --> 00:04:25,560
at a whole uh whole population of Italian volunteers. But

79
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,399
also I mean basically anybody one of the reasons why, uh,

80
00:04:29,879 --> 00:04:31,399
I don't want to get into the intrigues that led

81
00:04:31,439 --> 00:04:37,120
Franco to being kind of the frontman, uh of the

82
00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,879
of the nationalist cause. But Franco was somewhat apolitical. I

83
00:04:41,879 --> 00:04:44,120
mean even then, even even well before you know, he

84
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,920
became this kind of Cold War intriguer who uh who

85
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,439
who was kind of all things to all people. You know,

86
00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,160
he uh, Franco the man himself, Like much as he

87
00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,600
might have been lampooned, this is something of a crude

88
00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,680
figure common to the in a you know, Latin American

89
00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:05,839
world as we would think of it here, you know,

90
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,680
like it. The way he was viewed in Europe would

91
00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,240
be kind of the way we people would have viewed prone.

92
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,399
But aside from all of that, I mean, it was

93
00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:18,000
more acceptable to support a figure like Franco then you

94
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,160
know it would have been some some kind of ideologically

95
00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,959
committed fishes. But at the same time, there was a

96
00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,519
certain perfidy to a Churchill coming out in support of

97
00:05:28,519 --> 00:05:32,279
the nationalists. Meanwhile, you know, declaring it essential to stand

98
00:05:32,399 --> 00:05:35,360
with the Soviet Union against Germany, and what he suggested

99
00:05:35,439 --> 00:05:38,519
was Germany or identism. Part of this was the Republican

100
00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:45,399
government under one Nagan Negron. Again I butchered pronunciations. Please

101
00:05:45,439 --> 00:05:47,079
don't declare in the comments that I'm a crete and

102
00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:52,079
I know that I can't help it, okay, But Negron

103
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,959
had support from the Soviet chikof and you know, all

104
00:05:57,079 --> 00:05:59,959
kinds of police and military elements from the Soviet Union

105
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,399
and including a young Eric Milka who went on to

106
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,920
uh who went on to you know, be the Stasi

107
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:12,519
honcha over decades, but incredible brutality was carried out in

108
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,079
the name of the you know, Republican Cause, which was

109
00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,680
really just the Red Cause, and and the uh in

110
00:06:18,759 --> 00:06:22,920
a uh you fancy dress. Particularly clergy men and women

111
00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:29,279
were targeted. Uh. You know, it sounds I'm not being

112
00:06:29,319 --> 00:06:33,839
flippant about such things, but it sounds like a propagantic cliche.

113
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,399
But you know, none is really were aveiled, the systematic

114
00:06:36,439 --> 00:06:41,000
rate and things, and you know, uh the cemeteries where

115
00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,319
clergy people were buried were subject to destruction and their

116
00:06:45,319 --> 00:06:49,199
remains were dissentered and and desecrated. Just horrible, horrible stuff.

117
00:06:50,079 --> 00:06:52,480
So uh, you know, Churchill went on a record in

118
00:06:52,519 --> 00:06:55,959
Parliament as well as in his very at that to

119
00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:01,040
that there too four still lucrative uh newspaper contrary access

120
00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,759
the editorial writer, you know, in support of Franco. And

121
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,759
that was a that was kind of an early example

122
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:13,480
I think of these kinds of competing these kinds of

123
00:07:13,519 --> 00:07:17,000
competing loyalties that he was he was forced to forced

124
00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,879
to contend with you know, I mean even I realized

125
00:07:19,879 --> 00:07:22,240
in modern political life, even a man whose sympathies are

126
00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,800
literally bought, he's got to perform something of a delicate

127
00:07:26,839 --> 00:07:30,519
mini what in that regard. But this was unusual, even

128
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,680
considering the man in question, and even even considering, uh,

129
00:07:34,759 --> 00:07:37,600
the reality is of modern political life. Uh, that this

130
00:07:37,759 --> 00:07:40,319
was a bizarre circumstances, that I'm getting it, and that

131
00:07:40,399 --> 00:07:44,199
the terms of debate and discourse we we're not normal

132
00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:49,160
at all, even even the even the shenanigans, the focus notwithstanding,

133
00:07:54,519 --> 00:07:58,120
forgive that big stretch. I just said that I just

134
00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,639
had to shut the doward the office. But uh, now

135
00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,560
bring it back. H It's the year ninety thirty six,

136
00:08:06,639 --> 00:08:10,160
and what's happening in Berlin at this time. Erhard Milch

137
00:08:10,439 --> 00:08:12,720
who we raised in the last episode, and I come

138
00:08:12,759 --> 00:08:14,399
back to him a lot, not just because he was

139
00:08:14,439 --> 00:08:21,720
a prolific diarist and after the war, Miltch Uh was

140
00:08:21,839 --> 00:08:26,399
very open. Uh, he he was. He was. He kept

141
00:08:26,839 --> 00:08:29,519
a looted of revery few people into his intimate circles,

142
00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:32,240
but those that he did, he was very open with

143
00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:36,559
them about his wartime activities and about what was underway

144
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,320
in Berlin. And the years leading up to uh the

145
00:08:39,399 --> 00:08:43,320
onset of hostilities and particularly as we established, Milt was

146
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:46,919
something of a go between with the you know, the

147
00:08:47,039 --> 00:08:51,039
UK and and Berlin. Unofficially, Milton was an unusual guy

148
00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,159
as we as we raised to His father was Jewish,

149
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:58,799
so he was you know, mixed blood. He was the

150
00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:03,360
CEO of Luftanza. He was a he was a he

151
00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:08,080
was something of a military genius and he uh was

152
00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,360
one of the first truly uh he was He was

153
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,879
in the first military man who demonstrated true attitude for

154
00:09:14,919 --> 00:09:18,720
the potential of air power and its utility and particularly

155
00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:23,080
as ah as regards ground assault and and uh its

156
00:09:23,159 --> 00:09:27,519
utility and in terms of combined arms. Okay, well, most

157
00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:30,279
of nineteen thirty six he submitted to Garing, you know

158
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:35,840
who was chief of the loot Faffa. He submitted, uh, well,

159
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,039
it was kind of his own strategic vision moving forward

160
00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:41,799
of what Germany's defense needs were in terms of the Looftwaffa,

161
00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:45,759
which you know, air forces were new then, okay, they

162
00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:50,120
truly were nascose, So it was, uh, it was kind

163
00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:53,399
of a statement of what you know, they should take

164
00:09:53,399 --> 00:09:55,600
to the Furre in terms of what should be allocated

165
00:09:55,639 --> 00:09:59,879
for them, to for them to develop and and to

166
00:10:00,039 --> 00:10:02,720
staying the forces and being necessary to you know, to

167
00:10:02,799 --> 00:10:06,559
credibly project power. But also uh it was a strategic

168
00:10:06,639 --> 00:10:09,600
survey of of of what the next war would look like,

169
00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,360
and it was it was exhaustive. It was titled Thoughts

170
00:10:13,399 --> 00:10:17,440
on the Air War. Quite literally, there's not a single

171
00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,360
mention of the UK or the Royal Air Force, and

172
00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:25,120
it's exclusively focused on France as a probable probable adversary.

173
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,679
There's plenty of mentions of the Soviet Union. But at

174
00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:34,240
this point there was relations between Berlin and Moscow or

175
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,080
at times frosty. There was always kind of a damically

176
00:10:37,159 --> 00:10:42,840
sword hanging above it because the the governing ideologies were

177
00:10:42,399 --> 00:10:46,519
it were truly like dialectically violently at odds of one another.

178
00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:51,120
That part of where both arrived their legitimacy. But at

179
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:56,159
the same time, uh, the there there was an outward

180
00:10:56,159 --> 00:10:59,799
diplomatic courting of the Soviet Union. This is one of

181
00:10:59,759 --> 00:11:01,759
the reasons why stressed or had been done away with

182
00:11:01,799 --> 00:11:03,960
in my opinion, But that's a tangent we can take

183
00:11:04,039 --> 00:11:09,840
up later. But nor there was a scrupulous avoidance that

184
00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:15,000
that that that came from Hitler that that provocation and

185
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,840
over provocation of the Soviet Union should be avoided unless

186
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:24,039
it's a matter of essential security. However, again there was

187
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,039
literally not a single mention of the UK or the

188
00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:28,360
r a F. And this this was an eye is

189
00:11:28,399 --> 00:11:33,000
only study. It's not as if no, who is doing

190
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,320
this for diplomatic reasons because he you know, he was

191
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:37,759
concerned about you know, British eyes being on it and

192
00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:40,919
then and then somehow developing an idea that they were

193
00:11:42,039 --> 00:11:45,279
being set up as a as as as you know,

194
00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,200
the opposing force all but name and war gaming or something.

195
00:11:49,879 --> 00:11:52,960
Now this has contrasted when the you know, not just

196
00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,879
with Churchill's UH to the germanophobia and these in these

197
00:11:56,879 --> 00:12:00,960
configularity statistics about UH about Germany arms and forces and

198
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,840
being and capability and intention. But the Foreign Office, the

199
00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:10,399
British Foreign Office, it had most notably Lord Vance at

200
00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,559
tarities you know, kind of become infamous, not just in

201
00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:17,159
revisionist circles, but I think he's rather ugly character just

202
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,759
you know, in his regardless where one's politics fall, you know,

203
00:12:21,919 --> 00:12:25,840
he he had a he was the permanent Chief of

204
00:12:25,919 --> 00:12:29,639
Foreign Office for all practical purposes who had a quasi

205
00:12:29,759 --> 00:12:32,159
view of power over whoever happened to be the foreign

206
00:12:32,159 --> 00:12:36,480
Minister at any given and any given administration. But also

207
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,240
you know what he was able to set the tenor

208
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:42,879
of of of the diplomatic core and he and really

209
00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,159
is these these permanent these men with permanent sinate here

210
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,039
in the Foreign Office. Almost to a man, they were

211
00:12:50,039 --> 00:12:53,200
profoundly how Feld in Germany. And that's a complicated issue,

212
00:12:53,279 --> 00:12:56,240
and some of it's attributable to the same motive they

213
00:12:56,279 --> 00:12:59,000
animated the men associated with the focus, but most of

214
00:12:59,039 --> 00:13:02,240
them it proceeded that it had more to do with

215
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:05,799
the kind of antipathy of the to the Germans that

216
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,480
was characteristic at King Georgia's era. You know, it was

217
00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,799
kind of kind of the long hangover of the Great War,

218
00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:13,720
and you know, we talked a bit about, you know,

219
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:18,960
incidents like when Wilhelm, you know, congratulated Krueger on on

220
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,080
a on his on his victories against the crown and

221
00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,960
in a on the Afan Cape like it. There there

222
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,720
there there was a lingering and a sharp hostility to

223
00:13:31,799 --> 00:13:34,639
Germany in the Foreign Office that proceeded the focus That

224
00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:38,440
becomes important later, and it's just it's important if you

225
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:41,559
want to understand the British establishment at this time. I

226
00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:44,639
believe this is one of the things that despite the

227
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,200
great power and wealth at its disposal and its ability

228
00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:51,039
to kind of create propaganda infrastructure where there wasn't any.

229
00:13:51,159 --> 00:13:55,879
Despite all that, I believe the Foreign Office and its

230
00:13:56,159 --> 00:14:00,840
orientation towards Germany, I believe that something that emboldened the

231
00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:06,559
focus to kind of develop in the first place. Now

232
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:13,039
this gets really interesting, Uh, this gets really interesting if

233
00:14:13,039 --> 00:14:15,480
we look at the backdrop of what happened from nineteen

234
00:14:15,519 --> 00:14:19,320
thirty five to nineteen thirty seven. Well, first of all,

235
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,519
let's let's uh, First of all, let it be said too,

236
00:14:23,639 --> 00:14:25,919
around the same time that Mills submitted his thoughts on

237
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,000
air or to Gearing. Okay, I mean a lot of

238
00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:32,919
revisionist positive that, including Irving, including myself. I'm obviously not

239
00:14:32,919 --> 00:14:35,879
the same league as Irving. But it must be stated

240
00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:39,120
that the reason I raised that is because it's it's

241
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:44,240
it's it's it's persuasive testimony about the intention of the

242
00:14:44,279 --> 00:14:48,600
German regime. Okay, and ads of nineteen thirty six. And

243
00:14:48,639 --> 00:14:50,360
as we say, I was before militwould be in a

244
00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:52,960
position to know not just no, but he was in

245
00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,679
a position to directly impact policy by his evaluations and

246
00:14:56,679 --> 00:15:00,080
his recommendations, So his thoughts on airwar, there's not a

247
00:15:00,519 --> 00:15:03,879
single mention of the UK as a as a probable adversary.

248
00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,120
Also in ninety thirty six, Hitler himself deployed on Ribbon

249
00:15:09,159 --> 00:15:13,080
Trop to London as an ambassador before Ribbon Trot became

250
00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:20,080
Foreign Minister. That was instructions were uh break literally Hitler

251
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:22,000
said that Ribbon trumb bring me an alliance with the

252
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,639
United Kingdom, you know, Uh, Ribbon Troup is he's kind

253
00:15:26,639 --> 00:15:29,200
of miss Ribbon Trout was not a particularly complex figure,

254
00:15:29,279 --> 00:15:32,799
but he's he's he's unfairly lampoon and disdained this kind

255
00:15:32,799 --> 00:15:35,639
of foppish ignorant like a rich man. He wasn't. He

256
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,080
spoke very full in English. He lived in Canada. He

257
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,600
was a he he was something of a globe trotting

258
00:15:43,639 --> 00:15:47,759
businessman when that was rather rare, you know, for for

259
00:15:47,879 --> 00:15:52,080
men in that role it was, I mean, it was

260
00:15:52,159 --> 00:15:55,840
rare even for men in the government prior to uh,

261
00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,840
you know, about mid century. But I mean, so Ribbon

262
00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,559
trub is very worldly. There a reason Hillar had his

263
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,720
shortcomings and his judge ability to judge character. But in

264
00:16:04,799 --> 00:16:06,879
Ribbin Tromp's case, this was not one of them, and

265
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:15,759
Ribbin Troupp actually got Ribbin Troupp actually got on reasonably uh.

266
00:16:15,799 --> 00:16:21,639
He actually got on reasonably well with his counterparts. Churchhild

267
00:16:21,639 --> 00:16:25,919
deliberately sought him out to uh insult him. Uh A

268
00:16:25,919 --> 00:16:31,200
complications and irvings made, uh irvings made, uh irvings made

269
00:16:31,279 --> 00:16:35,279
much of that. But it's even Chamberlain himself, he he

270
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,600
and Ribin Trout didn't that particularly warm relations. They were amiable, Okay,

271
00:16:39,759 --> 00:16:43,399
But again this isn't. I raised this again because it's

272
00:16:43,399 --> 00:16:49,559
an example of executive intention of Brooklyn and its disposition

273
00:16:49,639 --> 00:16:56,840
to London. Now, this was part of an onoing effort

274
00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,960
by Germany to court the UK. UH that was I've

275
00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,559
the above board aspect of it, and uh the preceding

276
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:09,759
summer summer of nineteen thirty five, owing to this kind

277
00:17:09,759 --> 00:17:13,799
of ongoing you know, rapport that Aaron hard Milch had

278
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:19,519
with the British Air Ministry, he authorized Gearing through Milch

279
00:17:19,799 --> 00:17:24,400
to submit actual intelligence data on loof off of forces

280
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,400
and being and capabilities to London on the condition that

281
00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,960
their counterparson in the Air Ministry not disclosed the same

282
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:31,839
fot to any other state and that it not be

283
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,880
announced in Parliament or anything like that. Basically it is

284
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,920
so it was a good faith gesture, so it's not

285
00:17:38,039 --> 00:17:43,400
to be I'm conditioned to not be exploited for political purposes. Now,

286
00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:49,720
the Foreign Office intercepted it and demanded Ambassador Eric Phipps

287
00:17:49,799 --> 00:17:53,359
to reject it, which is incredible. Let me think about that.

288
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:57,160
Even if this data was even if this dad was

289
00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,519
submitted in bad faith, even if it was confabulated, which

290
00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:02,079
it wasn't, for record was entirely it was what appeared

291
00:18:02,079 --> 00:18:05,720
to be. But you don't reject any anything from a

292
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,680
potential adversary, you know, or rather great power, I mean,

293
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,400
because the data is data, you know, and that's you

294
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,160
needed to build a conceptual picture of the strategic landscape.

295
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,680
So that gives night the fat of the Foreign Office.

296
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,200
They were unwilling to entertain anything that appeared to be,

297
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:27,319
you know, a good faith diplomatic overture in any sense.

298
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:35,480
That that's incredible. Okay. So Milt himself, who in many

299
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,880
ways was more effective than Gearing, probably Milton bypassed the

300
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,680
FOI in office entirely. He directly approached the Committee of

301
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,640
Imperial Defense, which, as we talked about was the counterpart

302
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,640
in many respects to the General Staff in Germany or

303
00:18:47,839 --> 00:18:54,680
the American Joint Chiefs. He resented his figures, and uh,

304
00:18:54,799 --> 00:18:58,680
the we the Committee of Imperial Defense in the Air Ministry,

305
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,799
they they validated them as as accurate, in part because

306
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,359
they reflected what you know, British intelligence and particularly the

307
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:11,279
Air Ministry's Intelligence arm had compiled. So in other words,

308
00:19:12,279 --> 00:19:14,359
this is this was the this would be the equivalent

309
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:19,119
of state like a regime that was suspected of of

310
00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:23,519
of cultivating them, you know, radio acting material for a

311
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:26,880
for a military purpose, you know, granted open access to

312
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:32,240
the nuclear reactors. Okay, that's an imperfect analogy, but it

313
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:33,720
was what it appeared to be. It was a good

314
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:38,680
faith gesture that to demonstrate, you know, we're not you know,

315
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:43,480
we're we're not developing a strategic capability with uh, you know,

316
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,839
London in mind, and you know we're we're certainly not

317
00:19:47,279 --> 00:19:50,519
aiming to develop an air arm to you know, to

318
00:19:50,599 --> 00:19:53,000
terrorize the U can't submission another by threat of force

319
00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:58,640
or you know, by the application of it. It it's uh.

320
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,240
And like I said, even even if it was not

321
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:06,160
a even if it were disingenuous sort of Ledgermain, which

322
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,000
it was not. It's it's incredible that it was just

323
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,559
you know, utterly uh rejected out right by the Foreign Office.

324
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,119
But it's timachu of what of what they had in

325
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,000
mind and as as well as the focus you know,

326
00:20:17,039 --> 00:20:20,319
again we come back to what the we come back

327
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,839
to the Focus statement of purpose, which was, you know,

328
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:29,039
to counter any any inference or any suggestion or any

329
00:20:29,079 --> 00:20:33,039
any any appearance that anything that Berlin demands or anything

330
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:36,319
that suggests or anything it claims to desire is legitimate

331
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:40,079
on any front and any capacity. And that's exactly the

332
00:20:40,079 --> 00:20:44,960
way to understand that particular that that that that that

333
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:52,279
particular situation. But the uh and what was uh. Now,

334
00:20:52,319 --> 00:20:56,720
of course this uh, this uh, this data is fed

335
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,640
do after Chamberlain, just before he becomes are just the

336
00:21:00,759 --> 00:21:04,960
day after it comes a prime minister, because Churchill and

337
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,240
the Focus as well as uh, you know a lot

338
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,599
of Chamberlain's opponents who aren't particularly associated with mister Churchill

339
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,000
or the Focus, but are always eager to you know,

340
00:21:16,039 --> 00:21:19,240
find a way to impeach the credibility of a of

341
00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:21,839
the uh of the sitting prime minister. You know, they

342
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,880
seized upon h you know, Chamberlain is is one, you know,

343
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,720
leaving the UK vulnerable based upon you know, based upon

344
00:21:28,759 --> 00:21:34,200
German ambitions. So when Shamelin becomes PM, you know in

345
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:40,839
UH and he's he's very quickly advised of you know,

346
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:47,680
the UH, the UH, the Air ministries, you know, unofficial

347
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:49,880
meetings of Milch and the figures that they were availed to.

348
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,519
The only response from UH Lord Advance at Tarth, the

349
00:21:55,519 --> 00:21:58,079
only response from Churchill, the only response from the Focus

350
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:01,160
is merely that Mills was lying, nothing more, nothing less.

351
00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:03,640
You know, Germans can't be trusted. The Germans are lying,

352
00:22:04,319 --> 00:22:07,119
you know. Oh. Hitler also said that you know, the

353
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,400
German army would not exceed half a million men, you know,

354
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,880
basically saying, you know, the Germans are liars because they

355
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,279
claim to be compliant with their side treaty, which we

356
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,519
later acknowledged was an unjust treaty and not sustainable. You know,

357
00:22:19,599 --> 00:22:21,559
and when they when they didn't avail themselves you know,

358
00:22:21,799 --> 00:22:25,000
sanctioned by either by occupation or by further you know,

359
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,640
instrumental reparations. You know, that means that they simply can't

360
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,519
be trusted in any statement that they make. I mean,

361
00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:32,599
which is the most tortured form of reason that one

362
00:22:32,599 --> 00:22:36,400
can imagine. But again, the figures that were submitted by

363
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:41,599
Milsh were validated by the Air Ministry and the opfoice

364
00:22:41,599 --> 00:22:45,960
of Imperial Defense independently. Then the Milch said, but again,

365
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,000
if one yells things alluded enough from proverbial rooftops, and

366
00:22:50,599 --> 00:22:54,200
you know has the as the means and the will

367
00:22:55,079 --> 00:22:58,960
and the kind of bottomless coffers to the general of

368
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,880
bully pulpit, it really doesn't matter if the things when

369
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,680
is saying or are completely fabricated. And that's exactly what happened,

370
00:23:09,319 --> 00:23:13,319
particularly because Chamberlain did not have a particularly strong mandate.

371
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:23,920
Now the plot thickens a bit. The Air Ministry indicating

372
00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,759
a kind of admirable streak of independence in October of

373
00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:31,519
a nineteen thirty seven, and reciprocity for the kind of

374
00:23:31,559 --> 00:23:35,279
good offices as it were like demonstrated by Milch and

375
00:23:35,319 --> 00:23:39,400
their counterparts, and the loof off Milt himself and and

376
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,759
and the German Air Force deligation is invited to toward

377
00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:47,799
the Air Ministry time returned to Berlin. Melt is summoned

378
00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:52,400
by by Hitler himself, and which is unique or it's

379
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,720
remarkable rather. You know, Milt is a guy who was uh,

380
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,119
he was he was he was friendly with Hitler. Certainly

381
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,319
Hitler followed his care you're closely, you know, but it's

382
00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:07,400
not as if they had regular briefings or something. Hitler

383
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:12,400
took a peculiar interest because he wanted to relay everything

384
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,000
that he could about his impressions of a of his

385
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,400
counterparts and of the political climate in London at the time.

386
00:24:20,319 --> 00:24:23,400
And Milton tested dude to Irving as Wilton his own

387
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,319
diaries is that hilar reiterated doing the alliance with the

388
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:31,799
UK is absolutely essential. So I mean they're if in it.

389
00:24:32,759 --> 00:24:39,160
This is yet more kind of direct testimonial evidence of

390
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,440
of what Berlin's intensions were as of nineteen thirty seven.

391
00:24:42,839 --> 00:24:45,920
And I emphasized this because we're going to get into

392
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,000
the what I considiately be the appeasement myth momentarily and

393
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,440
as a framing as the context, it's kind of necessary

394
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,839
to establish that foundation. I'm not just trying to bore

395
00:24:58,839 --> 00:25:03,480
people with details or minutia that happens to interest me now.

396
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:11,519
November nineteen thirty seven, the focus has its uh has

397
00:25:11,559 --> 00:25:16,000
its kind of greatest coup as official the obviously you know,

398
00:25:16,039 --> 00:25:18,799
with with the exception when mister Churchill himself became Prime Minister,

399
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:27,640
but they Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden formally joins the Focus.

400
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,359
What his motivations were, I'm not an expert on Eden.

401
00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:39,920
I think, uh, I think eating at certain insights, not

402
00:25:40,079 --> 00:25:42,680
so much into the international situation that we had some

403
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,759
of those two. But I think he believed that Chamberlain

404
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,079
was weak. I think that he believed that. I think

405
00:25:50,079 --> 00:25:52,680
he was worldly enough to realize that there was something

406
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,759
of a title title shift underway in uh in the

407
00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:02,200
UK as do uh what kinds of factions and what

408
00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:06,119
people became, you know, we're gonna become the true power

409
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:11,160
brokers moving forward. I think he preferred to have the

410
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,960
Focus as a friend rather than an enemy, because he

411
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,839
he saw the writing on the wall and he believed

412
00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:21,720
at some point that you know, Churchill and the Focus

413
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:27,440
were gonna get their way and he wanted to survive that.

414
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:28,960
That's just my own opinion. I mean, I'm sure there's

415
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,240
gonna be guys, particularly Englishmen who know far more about

416
00:26:31,279 --> 00:26:33,680
eating the man than I do in British politics, who

417
00:26:33,759 --> 00:26:35,799
will probably disagree and they maybe we'll be right. That

418
00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:47,039
is my own take it around uh around the same

419
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:52,599
time a few months later, ninety thirty eight, the international

420
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:57,200
situation is heating up. Churchill medis with Joe P. Kennedy,

421
00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,160
which everybody knows was ambassador in the UK, and he'd

422
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,440
been in early Kennedy the senior. He'd been an early

423
00:27:04,519 --> 00:27:08,119
new dealer until Ian Roosevelt became better enemies owing in

424
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,920
part to A Roosevelt's appointment of morganhou you know who

425
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,960
we we we dealt with them, the person engine character

426
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,799
at Morgan Fowl a couple episodes ago. But Kennedy found

427
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:20,640
himself very much at log reads with Churchill, not just

428
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,279
because Kennedy was a you know, a millionaire Boston irishman

429
00:27:23,319 --> 00:27:25,519
and he could tell the Churchill just kind of disdained him,

430
00:27:25,559 --> 00:27:28,759
owing to his racent pedigree as it were.

431
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: But uh.

432
00:27:33,519 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 2: Fdr quite clearly directed and he was not prone to

433
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:42,519
this kind of micromanagement, at least in the case of Kennedy.

434
00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:47,799
Roosevelt quite clearly directed Kennedy to take you know, these

435
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,279
kinds of friendly luncheons with with Churchill in order to

436
00:27:50,599 --> 00:27:53,960
get a sense of what exactly Churchill's intentions where was

437
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:59,920
regard of the international situation. Because it seemed it was

438
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:04,319
clear to anybody who had understanding the deep politics at play,

439
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,519
like what their intentions were. When I say they, I

440
00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:09,519
mean church on the focus, but it wasn't clear how

441
00:28:09,559 --> 00:28:14,119
exactly they were willing to insinuate their ambitions and the policy.

442
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:21,680
So Kennedy took note at Churchill was kind of perfecty

443
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,880
because the topic of discussion was the man of Ribbon

444
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:32,599
Trop and and uh, Kennedy said, well, you know, did

445
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,200
Ribbon trop not offer that you know, Germany would not

446
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,839
only make no claim on the British Empire, but would

447
00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:43,519
all but guarantee it's continued existence so long as the

448
00:28:43,519 --> 00:28:47,720
British were willing to furnished Germany once again with its colonies,

449
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,279
and that the UK would not interferreance. You know, Germany's

450
00:28:51,759 --> 00:28:57,599
policy in the East and including that was a it

451
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,680
was a guarantee that, you know, the Behrmacht would not

452
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,119
move an inch westward. It should be noted that Hitler

453
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,960
had no interest in the issue of colonies, but Ribbin

454
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,359
Trout and the Foreign Ministry did. But that's that's kind

455
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,640
of a that that deserves a treatment on its own.

456
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:19,920
But much like Van Sittar, kind of lamely replied, uh.

457
00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:23,519
When confronted with you know, the figures submitted by Milts,

458
00:29:23,519 --> 00:29:26,160
the justestual of good faith, like Churchill merely declared that

459
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,519
these were all lies, that Ribbon trop was lying and

460
00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:32,160
this was all German Legard Maine and Kennedy was so

461
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,640
much shocked by this. And I mean Kennedy was kind

462
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,480
of the he was kind of the king of dirty tricks.

463
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:43,160
But it's uh, it's it's uh, I mean it's telling

464
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,279
that uh it was I guess kind of the single

465
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,160
singular focus on Suing for War is what is is

466
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,279
what it's telling here. I mean it's not telling that

467
00:29:54,279 --> 00:29:57,079
that was you know, Churchill's intention, and is is kind

468
00:29:57,119 --> 00:30:04,559
of enter sense of the situation. But I that I I, uh,

469
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,680
this is interesting too because moving forward, we will probably

470
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,000
get into this in the next episode. But Joseph Kennedy

471
00:30:13,079 --> 00:30:18,400
became convinced that uh that that that that that church

472
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,599
I might actually have him arrested on something of trumped

473
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:25,319
up charges or even haven't murdered. I I can't speak

474
00:30:25,359 --> 00:30:28,880
to that, but like weihood of that. But it I

475
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,759
only raised that because this is one of the things

476
00:30:30,799 --> 00:30:32,319
that this is one of the catalysts that led to

477
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,519
a lot of direct communication between Churchill and FDR himself.

478
00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:38,960
You know, FDR was not a particularly accessible man, and

479
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,160
that well we'll get into that later, probably not in

480
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,640
this episode, but I wanted to drop that p foundation

481
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,960
and I realized also, I'm throwing a lot of unfamiliar

482
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,119
personages at people, and I think Joe Kennedy kind of

483
00:30:50,119 --> 00:30:52,480
ties like, you know, the distant paths to the kind

484
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,519
of less remote pass in people's minds. If that makes

485
00:30:54,519 --> 00:30:58,359
any sense. Letus I just find it interesting. Now we're

486
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,519
gonna move on. It's more interesting, sexiest. I hope no

487
00:31:01,519 --> 00:31:05,599
one will sleep yet. But uh, the uh, the Anschluz,

488
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,519
the merger with Austria. Not only was that, you know,

489
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,839
one of the key ambitions of of Hitler and the

490
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,799
National Socialists and the Third Reich, but this was kind

491
00:31:15,799 --> 00:31:17,799
of the this is the big foreign policy coup that

492
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,920
set many things in motion, including what happened at Munich

493
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:28,559
months later. Okay, this is a game changer. You know,

494
00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:33,440
the UH Berlin was clamoring for UH for for the

495
00:31:33,519 --> 00:31:39,200
unification of Austria and in Germany proper. The Austrian Chancellor

496
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:49,279
Purchusnig opposed this at all costs. Okay, it's uh and

497
00:31:49,319 --> 00:31:52,480
then and one of the great kind of uh follies

498
00:31:52,599 --> 00:31:58,640
of power politics and the gamesmanship they're in Purchusnig. On

499
00:31:58,799 --> 00:32:01,440
March twelve, he announced that there will be a plebiscite

500
00:32:01,599 --> 00:32:07,200
on independence March thirteen. Okay, it was taking a page

501
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,119
from the book of Adolf Hitler. Schusnig was gonna He

502
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,000
said that, you know that the Austrians that'd fight to

503
00:32:12,039 --> 00:32:13,880
the last man and would never you know, accept being

504
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,200
a part of Germany. And you know, well, you know,

505
00:32:16,519 --> 00:32:18,839
to disabuse anybody of any notion that there could be

506
00:32:18,839 --> 00:32:22,960
a peaceful assimilation of Austria in the Germany. You know,

507
00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,240
he's gonna hold his his plebiscite. Let's see what the

508
00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:32,039
Austrian people favor moving forward, whether it's independence, you know,

509
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,480
a yes vote for independence, or whether they favor subjugation

510
00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:39,640
by the you know, the boot to the German Reich. Now,

511
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,160
what did schism to do? He only printed up. He

512
00:32:43,759 --> 00:32:46,960
ordered the only ballots containing the yes option be printed up.

513
00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:50,599
He also announced that voting against the Austrian independence was

514
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:55,000
a form of a sedition and was a crime. He also,

515
00:32:55,119 --> 00:32:58,119
upon learning that the average age of Austria National Socialist

516
00:32:58,119 --> 00:33:02,240
Party members was twenty three. He arbitrarly raised the voting

517
00:33:02,279 --> 00:33:07,079
age to twenty four. He asked me, that's a kind

518
00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:16,279
of electioneering worthy of of America. In twenty twenty, EDILF

519
00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:23,000
Hitler saw it was underway. It he uh, as everybody knows.

520
00:33:23,039 --> 00:33:28,559
He he preempted the ash slous, He preempted this plebiscite,

521
00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:33,880
and he preempted a shooting, the declaring martial law by uh,

522
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,000
you know, deploying forces across the Austrian frontier, and uh,

523
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,599
the Vermont is welcomed by the people. And UH. On

524
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:48,079
April tenth, Hitler held a referendum on the same day

525
00:33:48,119 --> 00:33:53,640
as you know German elections, and uh and behold ninety

526
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,079
nine point seven percent of Austrian's voting in favor of

527
00:33:56,119 --> 00:34:02,480
an schlus Now it must be stated that Jews, Roma's

528
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,240
and Gypsies and Communist Party members were not extended to vote. Okay,

529
00:34:06,279 --> 00:34:11,960
otherwise though even a Life magazine, which was certainly no

530
00:34:12,119 --> 00:34:15,280
friend of the third RIICHARILF Hitler, they ran on May second,

531
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,400
nineteen thirty eight. The election was certified as quote basically

532
00:34:18,519 --> 00:34:21,880
fair like in other words, this was like a legitimate

533
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:25,519
reflection of public opinion of ethnic Germans in Austria. Now

534
00:34:25,559 --> 00:34:28,719
I can only imagine this brings to mind the kind

535
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,559
of abject lunacy of the anglosphere and it's moral cant Like,

536
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,800
do you realize if I mean, the UK was not

537
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:39,119
in a position to do so, and neither was France.

538
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:43,519
But suppose it's been some kind of expeditionary force of

539
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:47,639
a British and French, the British and French army in

540
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:50,480
Congress with the like shooting things, kind of a secret police,

541
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:54,519
you know, assaulting Austria, you know, to liberate them from

542
00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,800
you know, a position that ninety nine point seven percent

543
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,679
of voting adult's favored. I mean, it's it's crazy, It

544
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,079
defies imagination, but it it kind of it made me

545
00:35:06,079 --> 00:35:11,559
think of like what Merscheimer said about uh, you know, uh,

546
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,960
particularly the United States and the UK, but pretty much

547
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,519
the entire EU, which is under you know, American dominion

548
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:21,039
in terms of its values among other things. You know,

549
00:35:21,079 --> 00:35:23,559
all regimes lie. But when when literally all you stand

550
00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:26,440
on is moral, can't that's totally at odds with reality.

551
00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:29,079
It can lead to bizarre outcomes. You can find yourself

552
00:35:29,119 --> 00:35:33,920
at war based upon some kind of mythology that that

553
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,960
that uh, that that that that has that does not

554
00:35:37,039 --> 00:35:41,079
reflect strategic circumstances when iota and there's really no other

555
00:35:41,119 --> 00:35:43,840
kind of regime like that, like dysfunctional as the East

556
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,519
Block was, that that wasn't something that that there there

557
00:35:48,559 --> 00:35:50,360
wasn't a risk of such things. But I just I

558
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:51,360
find that fascinating.

559
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,039
Speaker 1: Can I ask you something about Austria. Absolutely, let's go

560
00:35:56,119 --> 00:36:00,000
back a few years. Yeah, why did they assassinate Dolphus.

561
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 2: Dolphus was a national Catholic, basically something of a clerical fascist.

562
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:07,440
I mean, I don't like that term, but that's one

563
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:12,480
way to understand it. And he'd very much uh, he

564
00:36:12,599 --> 00:36:15,000
very very much apposed. He very much opposed what I

565
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,480
think of any of any kind of secular union with

566
00:36:18,519 --> 00:36:22,119
what had been habsburg Lands. He wanted an Austrian national state.

567
00:36:22,159 --> 00:36:24,000
I think it was almost kind of like a Tito figure.

568
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,639
I mean, yeah, he was presiding over a homogeneous population.

569
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,559
But he was a sport enemy of the national Socialist.

570
00:36:30,639 --> 00:36:34,440
The Austrian National Socialists were particularly violent, particularly revolutionary in

571
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:40,039
their disposition. That almost tanked the concord with Hitler and Mussolini.

572
00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:42,639
I believe that's one of the things that prompted Hitler

573
00:36:42,639 --> 00:36:47,320
to unconditionally see the tyroll to fascist Digli the tyroll

574
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:52,239
region because Hitler was quite literally meeting with the Mussolini

575
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,239
when the news came in that the Dolphus had been

576
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,079
had been unceremeneously murdered, you know, Gangland style. That's why

577
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,000
it and shoot Snigga. I think Dolphus is more of

578
00:37:03,039 --> 00:37:05,800
a genuine patriot than shot Snigga. But he was just

579
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:12,159
as kind of pigheadedly uncompromising as a and in terms

580
00:37:12,199 --> 00:37:14,639
of in terms of political realities, like that's why it's

581
00:37:14,639 --> 00:37:19,840
like it's a complicated issue. But the the main thing is, uh,

582
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,719
Dolphus seemed to think he could Dolvis seemed to believe

583
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,480
that he could stay his own course and with the

584
00:37:24,519 --> 00:37:28,719
backing of the Vatican, with the backing of Mussolini, you know,

585
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:31,440
he could keep uh, he could. He could he could

586
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,800
keep the national socialism down, he could keep the UK

587
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,039
in France out, and he could keep Austria you know,

588
00:37:36,159 --> 00:37:40,920
independent as a if if admittedly within you know, the

589
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:46,199
Italian orbit. That's why Hitler was infuriated that he was

590
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,639
murdered you know, not seeing he left for Dolphus. But

591
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,559
the Austrian the Austrian National Socialists were kind of we're

592
00:37:52,599 --> 00:37:55,639
kind of wild guys, you know, they quitted themselves very

593
00:37:55,679 --> 00:37:59,679
well in the battlefield. The Calvin Brinner, you know who

594
00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:01,800
see to the hydrit he was one of the Austria

595
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,880
and National Socialists. And as we're as we're a lot

596
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,599
of especially in the later regime, a lot of them

597
00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:13,760
emerged in in uh, in powerful roles. But that that's

598
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:14,679
that's the short.

599
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 1: Answer, Okay, power power politics.

600
00:38:19,199 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, indeed, indeed, yeah, and just the the when, when,

601
00:38:23,519 --> 00:38:27,679
the when, the when the Halfburg Empire, you know, or

602
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,840
the Austro Hungarian Empire. But I mean it's it's more

603
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,440
probably the Halfsburg regime, you know, it when it when

604
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:37,639
it was a shattered you know, uh, in the aftermath

605
00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:39,800
of nineteen eighteen. I mean it caused there's a lot

606
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,280
of real dysfunction there, you know. And even in states

607
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,199
that were actual you know, national communities that weren't just

608
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,360
you know, kind of hodge hodge pastiches of competing ethnic

609
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,960
groups and arbitrarily drawn you know, within arbitrarily drawn borders,

610
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,719
there was there was a problem of authority, and there

611
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,519
was a problem of you know what, what was the

612
00:38:58,519 --> 00:39:02,280
correct political trajectory, not just in power political terms, but

613
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:04,679
in terms of sustaining any kind of legitimacy. I mean,

614
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,519
that's that's hard too, and that's one of the reasons

615
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,639
for such a small country, the it took on an

616
00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:11,480
outside significance. And that's one of the reasons too, of

617
00:39:11,519 --> 00:39:14,320
the Oastian national Socialists, you know, made this big impact.

618
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,599
That's because they were violent. There was a lot of

619
00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:21,519
violent naziate actors in in in the interwar years.

620
00:39:21,519 --> 00:39:23,760
Speaker 1: It didn't make a kind of impact, but there was

621
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,599
weird stuff that like Misus wrote about how like border

622
00:39:28,679 --> 00:39:35,559
towns would be overrun by like the the neighboring population.

623
00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:38,159
So it's like you had a border town that would

624
00:39:38,199 --> 00:39:40,079
be Austrian and then all of a sudden it's not.

625
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, stuff like that. Real yeah, a real, a real,

626
00:39:44,559 --> 00:39:46,559
real anarchic political situation.

627
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 1: And his his answer to that was just give the

628
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,679
town up. Yeah, it's better to just give the town.

629
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,320
It's better to just give the town up and not

630
00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,760
have to deal with that in your polity.

631
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. At that point, and at that point too,

632
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,280
it's just a fiction, you know, I mean as yeah.

633
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you want to talk about you want to

634
00:40:10,079 --> 00:40:11,440
get into Churchill's uh.

635
00:40:13,519 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm leaving. I want to lead in a bit

636
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:19,719
to uh yeah, the the Munich situation, because it's it's

637
00:40:21,039 --> 00:40:24,320
so immediately into the Anslos church On. The Focus they've

638
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,239
been clamoring that Chamberlain must go. You know, is is

639
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,360
his unwillingness to the hole fast on Austria shows that

640
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:33,920
he you know, he doesn't have the back going to

641
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,679
defend the empire. And and this was ironically and perversely

642
00:40:38,119 --> 00:40:39,719
you know, this, this was this is the way the

643
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,719
Focus sold their perspective in public, is that this is

644
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:44,440
a threat to the empire. You know, Germany is a

645
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,599
threat to the empire. I mean that's strategically absurd. But

646
00:40:47,679 --> 00:40:49,639
also I mean the one thing Britain could not do

647
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,320
was fight a world war and keep its empire. But

648
00:40:53,719 --> 00:41:00,960
so during this time he uh this, you know, the

649
00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:06,320
owing to conditions I'll dive into in a moment. You know,

650
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,039
people identified Czechoslovakia as the next great uh you know,

651
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,840
diplomatic and potential military catastrophe. You know, in the wake

652
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,039
of Austria, you know, core historian's claims because you know,

653
00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:20,840
Hitler was this mad man. It was just on the

654
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,960
march and and just taking over places with hostility. And uh,

655
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,559
you know that's why I referred at the outset of

656
00:41:28,559 --> 00:41:30,800
our discussion to the appeasement myth, because it really is

657
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,320
a myth. It's not me putting shade on a term

658
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,280
owing to my own political prejudices. It really does not

659
00:41:37,079 --> 00:41:42,559
it really does not reflect what was underway. Now Chamberlain.

660
00:41:43,039 --> 00:41:47,400
You know, like I said before, I Chamberlain is something

661
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,440
of a dull personage, and that that harmed him in

662
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,000
public life obviously, but he he did have a good

663
00:41:54,079 --> 00:41:59,039
sense of things, and I mean in purely strategic terms.

664
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,599
You know, he understand the limitations and military power and

665
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:07,159
uh when uh As Churchill developed something of a quorum

666
00:42:07,199 --> 00:42:09,519
around himself, not just to the of the focus, but

667
00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:17,880
what of you know, hostile opposition figures. Uh. Chamblin's rebuttal was, okay,

668
00:42:18,599 --> 00:42:21,800
you know, if we were to guarantee che quote guarantee Czechoslovakia.

669
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,360
You know the Czech the Zech frontier is essentially undefended. Okay,

670
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,000
so there's not forces in being there that you know

671
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,079
that that that any any British deployment would be kind

672
00:42:32,079 --> 00:42:35,320
of beefing up. At most the UK could deploy at

673
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,480
that time as of ninety thirty As of summer ninety

674
00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:41,920
thirty eight two divisions the RAF had only seven viable

675
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,239
modern fighter squadrons. You know, the UK itself to that

676
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,199
point it had no heavy to medium in aircraft capability.

677
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,440
And the big I mean, the big menace, frankly is

678
00:42:54,599 --> 00:43:00,840
regardless of how combat resolved on the continent, and if

679
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:05,280
Japan and Italy joined the Fray, the British Empire was

680
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,719
going to be I mean it was. It was open

681
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,199
to assault on half of dozen fronts, you know, like

682
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,599
it's it would be the dimension of insanity undertake those

683
00:43:15,639 --> 00:43:21,079
kinds of risks for Czechoslovakia. And it was around this

684
00:43:21,199 --> 00:43:25,199
time too, interestingly, you know, we talked a great deal

685
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,679
about Churchill's dire financial straits and Ali was bailed out

686
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,719
with huge sums of money by you know, wealthy men

687
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,880
of factors who came to constant the core the focus.

688
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:45,639
Now it's uh it, It's got to be noted that

689
00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:52,480
if the December thirty seven January thirty eight, Churchill had

690
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,039
lost a huge amount of money in American stocks and

691
00:43:56,519 --> 00:43:58,679
Wall Street was still quite volatile even though they had

692
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:03,199
largely recovered ructurally, and then I need twenty nine crash

693
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,320
Hitler or Hitler church Will had not reign in his spending.

694
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:12,920
Is his uh is his prodigal Uh his son. It

695
00:44:13,079 --> 00:44:17,880
was a true prodigal of the the local sort, you know,

696
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:22,880
couldn't be rained in. Churchill found himself once again nearly destitute. Uh.

697
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:30,039
Lord beaverbrook Uh, who was a kind of a who

698
00:44:30,079 --> 00:44:35,159
was kind of uh Churchill's last remaining uh you know,

699
00:44:35,679 --> 00:44:39,159
patron in in in the in the newspaper, in the

700
00:44:39,159 --> 00:44:42,360
publication business, you know who who wasn't quite literally you know,

701
00:44:43,519 --> 00:44:46,199
hanging out to him for charity, like the the focus

702
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,840
was in order to in order to corral him into

703
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,360
you know, being the frontmen of their position. Uh. Beaver

704
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,960
Brooks simply got sick of is more monitoring, and he

705
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,760
beaber Broke, among other publications, ran the Evening Standard. He

706
00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:03,960
and Churchill's content canceled his contract, you know, to pride

707
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:10,440
him among other things, of substantial income. And who Churchill

708
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,360
found himself in such dire straits, that is his family's

709
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:19,559
ancestral estate, the chartwell was literally listed for sale. But

710
00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:23,039
then what happens on March twenty eighth, nineteen thirty eight,

711
00:45:24,079 --> 00:45:32,079
a man in a Morovian jew with close ties the

712
00:45:32,079 --> 00:45:37,719
the Czechoslovak government, named Sir Henry Strakosh is a South

713
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,960
African gold mining magnate shore one of the Union Corporation Limited.

714
00:45:43,519 --> 00:45:48,679
He paves all at Churchill's debts, sees with that he

715
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:53,000
can hold on. It was a state and it uses him,

716
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,280
according to some accounts, to that one million dollar quote alone,

717
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:58,559
but you know alone that would not accrue interests and

718
00:45:58,599 --> 00:46:00,880
would never have to be paid backs away, you know,

719
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,760
a gift. And this is the moment at which Churchill

720
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,360
was truly owned by the focus. In my opinion, okay,

721
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,480
because how do you, I mean, how do you I

722
00:46:09,519 --> 00:46:11,679
don't think one could foresee it. We come back from,

723
00:46:12,119 --> 00:46:17,840
you know, as an independent political figure. After ah, you

724
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,159
know that the patronage of of Baruk and these other

725
00:46:20,199 --> 00:46:23,440
figures were you know so solidly you know, the camp

726
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:28,079
of a of of of of an athno sectary and

727
00:46:28,079 --> 00:46:30,760
ide ideology that was you know, completely odds with the

728
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:32,679
national interest. But I mean, if if there was ever

729
00:46:32,679 --> 00:46:36,440
any question, I think this it was at this point

730
00:46:36,599 --> 00:46:40,480
Churchill was sold as sold. It was sounding melodramatic. But

731
00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:47,920
let's uh, let's return to Czechoslovakia and why why it's

732
00:46:48,159 --> 00:46:50,719
it's why the Munich issue is is so gross and

733
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:59,960
as characterized. Okay, Czechoslovakia was actually it was forty seven

734
00:47:00,079 --> 00:47:04,199
percent Czech Okay, more Germans than Slovaks actually lived there.

735
00:47:04,119 --> 00:47:06,840
It's about twenty five percent German. That most of those

736
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,480
Germans were concentrated in the Sudatan region, the borderland, you know,

737
00:47:10,639 --> 00:47:14,960
on the frontier with Germany, but uh, they were insinuated

738
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,199
throughout the entirety of the country. It was also home

739
00:47:18,199 --> 00:47:23,079
to Poles, Ruthenes mag yards, you know this, these people

740
00:47:23,079 --> 00:47:26,400
that never existed in under a common quality. Okay, and this,

741
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,760
this idea of Czechoslovak state was absurd and uh it's

742
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,199
had it was. It was it was a contrivance of uh,

743
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,159
of the of the chaos and the misguided sort of

744
00:47:38,199 --> 00:47:41,480
a redrawing of the map in the wake of Farsai,

745
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:44,960
and uh it was it was solid landed Chech domination.

746
00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:47,800
And I'm not gonna sit here and say negative things

747
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,480
about Czech people, but they're very proud nationalistic people, not

748
00:47:51,519 --> 00:47:54,360
on like the Poles, not unlike most of these ethnic

749
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,480
groups in Central Europe. Okay, and they if you were,

750
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,519
if you were a non Czech under this regime, you

751
00:48:02,199 --> 00:48:04,840
were not able to freely practice your culture and and

752
00:48:05,159 --> 00:48:09,440
and pursue your own cultural existence other than as a

753
00:48:09,559 --> 00:48:12,119
very much a kind of get a wise minority figuratively

754
00:48:12,159 --> 00:48:16,679
and literally. The Cegate and Germans were quite well off comparatively,

755
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,440
but they were very very much resented. Uh they were.

756
00:48:22,079 --> 00:48:26,280
There was the threat waxed and waned, but there was

757
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,599
a genuine threat of them being ethnically cleansed. An event

758
00:48:29,679 --> 00:48:32,280
of you know, an event that's kind of ongoing social

759
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:36,880
hostility reached the point of real violence. This this is

760
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:41,199
a Bosnia kind of situation. Okay, if somebody wants a

761
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:48,559
comparative model, well within living memory, the uh, this is

762
00:48:48,559 --> 00:48:51,880
what's so ironic, because people like church old people like

763
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:56,599
the focus people advance at tart had they've held the

764
00:48:56,599 --> 00:48:59,519
Czechoslovakia as if like a entirety is essential to the

765
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:04,239
principle of self determination. It's like, well, you know, you can,

766
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,360
on the one hand, demand the Austro Engarian Empire be

767
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:10,760
This mantal lives with the case in Ninette. These discrete

768
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,400
ethnic groups, you know, do not have homogeneous states where

769
00:49:14,519 --> 00:49:17,119
they can pursue their own political cultural destiny, but then

770
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:20,039
declare that this, you know, contrivance of a state. This

771
00:49:20,159 --> 00:49:23,239
Frankenstein kind of passed spiche of ethnicity is ruled by

772
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:29,239
checks is somehow, you know, a reflection of self determination. Really,

773
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:35,440
the only reason came into existence was only to certain intrigues.

774
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:44,039
Now France, Uh, the Immersal folk in nineteen nineteen. One

775
00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:47,679
of the things he declared Versailles is that Germany or

776
00:49:47,679 --> 00:49:49,960
that France had to occupy the Rhineland and this was

777
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,440
non negotiable, you know. And Clement so also had said,

778
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,119
we need a buffer state, you know, absent, absent the

779
00:49:57,119 --> 00:49:59,599
ability to defend in depth. You know, we're just too vulnerable.

780
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:04,000
The UK and the US denied the claim what Wilson

781
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:09,719
offered in in its stead because he said, look, let's

782
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,079
create a collective security pack of the US United Kingdom

783
00:50:13,119 --> 00:50:16,320
in France. You know where in a France comes under assault.

784
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,440
You know, the US and the UK obligated to come

785
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,960
to his aid. Uh. The U s Senate correctly refused

786
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,679
to ratify, and when the US refused to ratify, the

787
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,360
UK then backed out. Okay, So what was what was

788
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,079
the how how are the how are the speaking of appeasement?

789
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:33,920
This is a case of real appeasement. How was the

790
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:38,519
French delegation appeased? They were appeased by the creation of

791
00:50:38,599 --> 00:50:42,559
Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia and part okay, a little entent if

792
00:50:42,599 --> 00:50:49,119
you will, this would uh, you know, Czechoslovakia literally struck

793
00:50:49,199 --> 00:50:54,719
into the territorially into the North German plane. It it availed, Uh,

794
00:50:55,559 --> 00:50:58,760
it availed France. Uh uh you know, an Eastern Allied

795
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,159
state that it could mobilize an event of war and uh,

796
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,920
you know, compromise Germany's ability to to kind of like

797
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,280
Germany's ability to defend in depth by forcing a two

798
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:15,960
front conflict, and it created a in the Yugoslavia created

799
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,880
a second comment Ali that theoretically was was was was

800
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,559
bound to, you know, to the fight in common that

801
00:51:23,679 --> 00:51:29,800
France went to war. It seems, I mean, it seems

802
00:51:30,039 --> 00:51:36,119
incredibly foolish, uh to suggest that, you know, anyone would

803
00:51:36,119 --> 00:51:40,960
go to war for Czechoslovakia Yugoslavia. But it I believe

804
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:47,199
the idea was that some kind of that that if

805
00:51:47,199 --> 00:51:52,960
the strategic situation deteriorated enough, like fear of a an

806
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,559
in this German Reich would kind of bind people in

807
00:51:56,639 --> 00:51:59,159
common cause I don't think that's realistic either, because in

808
00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:01,840
a lot of ways, that's after what happened, and you know,

809
00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:06,079
it's UH in large part worked in the axis favor.

810
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,960
But that's that's the backgrounds this idea. I mean, if

811
00:52:11,039 --> 00:52:14,079
the Europeans are watching this, forgive me for being pantic.

812
00:52:14,119 --> 00:52:16,599
A lot of Americans even weren't total dummies. I don't

813
00:52:17,039 --> 00:52:19,679
know about Czechoslovakia and the fact that it's totally faked.

814
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:25,000
That's why I spent so much time there. Now as

815
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:32,440
a NINEU thirty eight, the UH president Czechoslovakia is UH

816
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:41,719
Edward benees or Venice. Now, something very very conspiratorial happened

817
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:47,760
immediately after the ALUs and it wasn't clear UH initially

818
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,400
what was underway. So we're gonna have to jump back.

819
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,159
We're gonna have to jump forward a little bit and

820
00:52:52,199 --> 00:52:55,679
then back again. Okay, Mark on thirty eight. Immediately after

821
00:52:55,679 --> 00:52:59,559
the An Schluze, you know, there's a there's this uproar

822
00:52:59,559 --> 00:53:02,119
among the UH, you know, Germany's enemies and the focus

823
00:53:02,159 --> 00:53:04,800
as well as in the British Foreign Office and in France,

824
00:53:05,039 --> 00:53:08,599
which is a very very different political culture in the UK.

825
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:13,320
You know, the France and Germany's conventional enemy in UH

826
00:53:14,559 --> 00:53:19,199
conventional you know, European enemy like rival power. You know, obviously, uh,

827
00:53:20,679 --> 00:53:23,679
obviously there's there's not the kind of bitterness and and

828
00:53:23,679 --> 00:53:27,480
and ethnic racial overtones is in the East. But you know,

829
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,360
I don't think people need to be uh educated elaborately

830
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,280
on the or in depth about you know the fact

831
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:36,960
that Franco German I still to use its like a thing. Okay,

832
00:53:37,039 --> 00:53:44,199
So France obviously is alarmed by the nan Selous. They

833
00:53:44,519 --> 00:53:48,199
they've got very close relation Blums uh governments, very close

834
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:55,039
relations with Bene's. Immediately after the Anchelus a h a

835
00:53:55,159 --> 00:54:00,159
rumor uh emerges and uh it becomes more in a

836
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:05,559
room almost immediately it becomes a genuine war scare. Benni's

837
00:54:05,639 --> 00:54:11,480
issues a statement that a German invasion of Czechoslovakia was

838
00:54:11,559 --> 00:54:14,400
imminent and that the Behmont was massing forces in the

839
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,280
north German plane and and and and throughout the Czech frontier,

840
00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:22,960
and that they were poised for assault. Bennet's then orders

841
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:28,360
a general mobilization Harris and Moscow. Both of them declare

842
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,079
that they will come to Czechoslovakia. The aide if the

843
00:54:31,119 --> 00:54:35,840
Barmont crossed the frontier. Even Chamberlain realizing that he can't

844
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,239
you know, sit idly, particularly after a you know, this

845
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,440
kind of concerted assault in the court of public opinion

846
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,920
by Churchill, by the Foreign Office upon his decision making,

847
00:54:45,079 --> 00:54:49,960
and now you know Anthony eatens in on the act.

848
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,679
Chamberlain issues are some of cryptic statement that you know

849
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:56,199
that London will not sit idly while of invasion is

850
00:54:56,239 --> 00:55:02,039
staged by Germany of any sovereign state. Now, Hitler was

851
00:55:02,039 --> 00:55:07,039
genuinely kind of dumbfounded by this because there there there

852
00:55:07,159 --> 00:55:10,239
was no intention to assault Czegoslovakia and there had been

853
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:16,519
no deployment on under the frontier. Hitler is convinced that,

854
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,679
you know, this might be some kind of legerd domain

855
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:29,079
originating in Moscow. He doesn't know what to think. Yodel, General, oh, burst,

856
00:55:29,119 --> 00:55:32,880
I'm sure I portsured dead pronunciation two. You know Yodel

857
00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,400
was by this point was not a particularly close lay

858
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,840
of Hitler, although subsequently he became very close. He ended

859
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,840
up becoming a very powerful figure on the general's staff.

860
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,119
We know a lot about what transpired here because of

861
00:55:46,159 --> 00:55:50,239
what he relayed, and he really had no reason to lie.

862
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,360
He knew nothing was gonna spare for a death sentence

863
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:57,960
or anything. So on a on May twenty third, what

864
00:55:58,079 --> 00:56:01,840
Hitler does is the Hitler orders the Foreign Office and

865
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,039
the the you know, the the the diplomatic delegation in Czechoslovakia,

866
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:11,519
you know, to approach Benice as well as the as

867
00:56:11,519 --> 00:56:16,079
well as you know, he dispatches, you know, his own

868
00:56:16,079 --> 00:56:18,800
foreign office people in Berlin, you know, to approach the

869
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,920
Czech ambassador and tell him and knowing certain terms, that

870
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,440
Germany has no aggressive intention. You know, when they the

871
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:29,239
Germans disclosed has been there's been no changeing deployments on

872
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,880
the on the frontier, there's been no concentration of forces.

873
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:36,599
You know. Uh, Hitler is basically scrambling to avoid a

874
00:56:36,639 --> 00:56:42,519
war by by misunderstanding or by rumor. Now you know,

875
00:56:43,039 --> 00:56:48,039
Bene's to Hitler, Benny's represent representatives to the foreign to

876
00:56:48,079 --> 00:56:53,079
the German foreign ministry. They act, they react with apparent gratitude,

877
00:56:53,199 --> 00:56:59,360
you know. But immediately thereafter, within forty hours, Benice addresses

878
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:01,480
his country and he said that he has called the

879
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:03,960
bluff of the coward and bully Hitler, and that by

880
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,679
demonstrating his will to fight. And you know, the will

881
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,480
of the democracies to fight in the face of fascism.

882
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:11,039
You know, Hitler has been brought to his knees and

883
00:57:11,079 --> 00:57:15,800
exposed at this coward. Now Hitler hit the goddamn roof,

884
00:57:16,599 --> 00:57:18,920
you know, for a few reasons, because first of all,

885
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:21,400
he realized Bennis himself is the source of this rumor,

886
00:57:22,119 --> 00:57:25,599
you know, and he was basically he staged the war

887
00:57:25,719 --> 00:57:28,559
scare for the sake of a as a flax essentially,

888
00:57:29,159 --> 00:57:32,679
you know, in order to see exactly, you know, how

889
00:57:32,679 --> 00:57:34,960
he could manipulate you know, France and Moscow as well

890
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:36,519
as London, you know, to come to his aid to

891
00:57:36,519 --> 00:57:39,159
preserve his government. Was frankly at no real mandate anyway.

892
00:57:40,679 --> 00:57:45,760
But also you know, he he was just you know,

893
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,280
he wanted to He wanted to try and put on

894
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,440
a Mussolinia act. And that looks some kind of strong man,

895
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:57,519
you know, Hitler responded publicly, and so think of mine too.

896
00:57:57,599 --> 00:57:59,519
You know, what Dennis was doing during the Great War,

897
00:57:59,599 --> 00:58:02,480
he was, you know, kind of gallivanting around. One of

898
00:58:02,519 --> 00:58:04,639
the reasons he became the president of Czechoslovakia is because

899
00:58:04,639 --> 00:58:06,840
he was an intriguer. You know. By the today's standards,

900
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,639
we consider him be some kind of globalist liberal. You know,

901
00:58:09,679 --> 00:58:11,280
he wasn't in the trenches. He was you know, making

902
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,639
he was organizing committees to you know, fund uh you know,

903
00:58:14,719 --> 00:58:17,480
funded Czechoslovak government after the war, in which you know

904
00:58:17,519 --> 00:58:20,920
he'd have a he had some kind of plumb uh sinecure.

905
00:58:21,639 --> 00:58:24,880
And Hitler in his statement said, you know, I uh,

906
00:58:25,239 --> 00:58:27,000
I spent four and a half years at the front

907
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,840
on fighting for my country. You know, well Bennis was

908
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:35,000
intriguing and inspiring and you know, living lavishly is you know,

909
00:58:35,079 --> 00:58:38,800
we fought and died in the trenches, and there's a

910
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:40,960
lot to be said for that. Like he basically you know,

911
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,800
you know, you know, if you're got like Bennis, you know,

912
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:45,400
you know, you know what, I'm keeping the man out

913
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,519
of a man like Hitler, Like whatever you think about him,

914
00:58:47,519 --> 00:58:51,440
that's I mean, that's ridiculous. Okay, that's uh. And it's

915
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:56,599
in those days, especially especially then, you know, things like

916
00:58:56,679 --> 00:59:01,280
mask and honor really really manred. You know. So what

917
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:06,880
Hitler then said, the title who was another general officer

918
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:13,679
who who came to a very hype pre eminence on

919
00:59:13,719 --> 00:59:16,400
the on the on the on the on the German

920
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:20,519
general staff. Later he heard titled to implement a gradual

921
00:59:20,599 --> 00:59:23,400
mobilization of the German army and prepare for case green.

922
00:59:23,599 --> 00:59:27,559
And case green was the code for war against Czechoslovakia,

923
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,119
not an immediate mobilization, not when that would be noticed

924
00:59:34,159 --> 00:59:36,960
by you know, France, and certainly not when to be

925
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:43,039
noticed by Prague. But uh, Hitler realized that at some point,

926
00:59:43,199 --> 00:59:45,360
you know, this was a disposition at Benet's. He was uh,

927
00:59:47,159 --> 00:59:50,920
he was uh, he was quite obviously at least, you know,

928
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,960
I think it's clear, it's you know, he was quite

929
00:59:55,039 --> 00:59:56,920
he was quite obviously hoping for a scenario that would

930
00:59:56,920 --> 00:59:59,000
trigger a general war before Germany he was in any

931
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,760
position to see such a conflict through to victory. There's

932
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:05,800
a lot of guys, and I'm not a military vet,

933
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:08,000
and I don't know a lot about military science. Okay,

934
01:00:08,039 --> 01:00:10,360
guys look back and forth and they gained these scenarios.

935
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,760
Could Germany have won a general war with Czechoslovakia in

936
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,480
nineteen thirty eight, and it becomes people becoming bettered in

937
01:00:17,559 --> 01:00:20,599
their perspective. I don't have an opinion on that, but

938
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:26,679
perception was that Germany would I have no doubt that

939
01:00:26,679 --> 01:00:28,360
I felt would have thought it was critical to do

940
01:00:28,440 --> 01:00:30,280
so in the primpline cult he would have gone to

941
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:34,800
war with Czechoslovakia. But could Germany have won, had Moscow,

942
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:40,079
had Paris, had the UK come to fight, could Germany

943
01:00:40,079 --> 01:00:42,039
have won that war? I don't know, and I'm not

944
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:44,440
taking an opinion on that. I'm just talking about the

945
01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,639
perception as it was visa the forces and being and

946
01:00:47,679 --> 01:00:53,320
everything else. But it's got to be said too. You know,

947
01:00:54,559 --> 01:01:00,320
what brought this to a head, these tensions were in Chegoslava,

948
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,880
I mean from nineteen twenty to nineteen thirty eight, which

949
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,880
is our you know now present the sedate Germans had

950
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:11,000
been agitating to be free of of of Czech rule.

951
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:18,320
And everybody, you know, the British, the French, the UH Moscow,

952
01:01:18,599 --> 01:01:21,400
you know, everybody, the Poles, like everybody realized that this

953
01:01:21,519 --> 01:01:23,800
was like a bad this is a bad decision. It

954
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:30,280
was a bad decision to you know, to uh hand

955
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:34,000
the sigate and Germans to to prog like. Nobody thought

956
01:01:34,039 --> 01:01:36,800
this was sustainable. Nobody thought this was a good idea.

957
01:01:37,159 --> 01:01:43,719
So like the idea that Czechoslovakia was a stable country,

958
01:01:43,840 --> 01:01:47,159
that that had some kind of organic heritage, you know,

959
01:01:47,199 --> 01:01:50,679
politically or culturally. You know and had and had you know,

960
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,760
enjoyed like strong legitimacy. That's completely false. And everybody. The

961
01:01:54,800 --> 01:01:58,960
reason why Chamberlain after the Munich summit, like the reason

962
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,159
why he was like, you know, so congratulated is because

963
01:02:02,199 --> 01:02:05,239
for twenty years people were convinced there was gonna be

964
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:07,599
a war over this issue. You know, it wasn't. It

965
01:02:07,639 --> 01:02:10,360
wasn't because hil there was invading places for no reason.

966
01:02:10,400 --> 01:02:14,079
And you know, and and and Chamberain just kissed his ass,

967
01:02:14,079 --> 01:02:16,519
and like everybody just you know, decided to kiss Chamberlain's

968
01:02:16,559 --> 01:02:18,719
ass for being a pussy or something or whatever they think,

969
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:22,199
you know, I mean even Roosevelt congratulated Chamberlain. You know,

970
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:25,440
it's like what so like FDR like love Hitler now,

971
01:02:25,519 --> 01:02:32,480
like don't. It's completely asinine and the the whole uh,

972
01:02:33,559 --> 01:02:37,559
you know, and what happened, uh, what happened when uh

973
01:02:37,639 --> 01:02:42,199
the Citate in Land was seated to Germany. You know,

974
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:46,559
the several nationalities including you know, Slovakia, and Slovakia declared independence,

975
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:51,199
you know, and uh, the Czech's essentially invaded, you know,

976
01:02:52,679 --> 01:02:56,360
the Czech state imploded, and so we're supposed to believe

977
01:02:56,360 --> 01:02:58,880
the state that collapsed, that had no legitimacy with some

978
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,159
crime that it sees to exist. I mean is should

979
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:04,920
should should the United States have invaded Germany and the

980
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,239
Canadian nine because when East Germany just must exist? I

981
01:03:08,239 --> 01:03:11,159
mean I and it sounds like I'm being funny, but

982
01:03:11,159 --> 01:03:11,719
I mean.

983
01:03:11,719 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: Really, and it sounds so familiar as to something that's

984
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:15,199
happening right now.

985
01:03:15,519 --> 01:03:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And that's kind of what I wanted to,

986
01:03:18,239 --> 01:03:23,639
you know, draw in the into the UH into the

987
01:03:23,679 --> 01:03:26,280
equation it. I mean, the whole thing is too what

988
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,360
I kind of wanted to conclude on for this episode,

989
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:30,199
and I don't want to go too far afield, but

990
01:03:30,239 --> 01:03:34,039
I know that and anytime you raise these kinds of

991
01:03:34,039 --> 01:03:36,639
revision as issues, there's what what people say is they

992
01:03:36,639 --> 01:03:39,960
say like, well, okay, fine, you know there was there's

993
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,400
always political intrigues underway and and all these kinds of

994
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:48,400
competing them, all these kinds of competing UH ambitions, But well,

995
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,760
you know, the the German Reich was just as evil

996
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,440
state and it came into existence for the sole purpose

997
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:59,079
of murdering people. You can't look at it that way.

998
01:03:59,159 --> 01:04:01,480
And if you look at the New York Times UH

999
01:04:02,039 --> 01:04:06,519
interesting lafter the Christal knocks, which was a really prummy

1000
01:04:06,679 --> 01:04:10,800
thing to do. I mean, I don't need to get

1001
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:12,639
on specifics of it. You know that's there was, you know,

1002
01:04:12,679 --> 01:04:16,079
there's there's basically not the cleansing operation and major German cities,

1003
01:04:16,199 --> 01:04:18,960
you know, where a lot a lot of Jews were

1004
01:04:19,159 --> 01:04:21,480
you know, beat up, a few relynched, and you know

1005
01:04:21,559 --> 01:04:24,760
Jewish property was destroyed. I mean, these kinds of things happened. Okay,

1006
01:04:25,199 --> 01:04:28,400
these things kind of things happened wherever there's hostility between

1007
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:31,880
ethnic groups. But uh, the way Gerbel's ministry handled it

1008
01:04:31,920 --> 01:04:35,159
was grotesque, and I I don't think anybody would say otherwise.

1009
01:04:35,199 --> 01:04:39,320
But when when these interventions in the aftermath that they,

1010
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:41,719
as said, did clamoring for war, you know the New

1011
01:04:41,800 --> 01:04:44,760
York Times, which by no means what it is today,

1012
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:47,000
and certainly and then it wasn't in America first paper

1013
01:04:47,039 --> 01:04:49,800
or anything. But he pointed out they said, you know,

1014
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:54,360
mister stalin, Soviet Union has arbitually executed exponentially more Jews

1015
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,199
than the Third Wright has and that, I mean, that

1016
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,760
was true. The before a shot was fired in the

1017
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:07,559
Second World War, the Soviet Union annihilated approximately ten million people.

1018
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:11,119
So when you're looking at what happened in the Second

1019
01:05:11,159 --> 01:05:13,920
World War, whether you're talking about, you know, the the

1020
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,920
annihilation of Jewish civilians or any other kind of grotesque

1021
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,480
the violencing and civilian populations, you're talking about the fact,

1022
01:05:21,519 --> 01:05:24,679
you're talking about consequences of the war, not causes. So

1023
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,639
saying that saying, you know, the UK had to assault

1024
01:05:28,679 --> 01:05:31,239
Germany because the Germany was going to do bad things

1025
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:34,119
to minority groups, that's like saying, like Japan had to

1026
01:05:34,159 --> 01:05:36,199
attack the United States because the United States is going

1027
01:05:36,239 --> 01:05:38,440
to wage a nuclear war on them. I mean, like,

1028
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:40,719
it doesn't I'm not being up too So it's you know,

1029
01:05:42,079 --> 01:05:45,280
people have a completely warped sense of how the history

1030
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,039
actually developed and what the motives were the players involved

1031
01:05:48,079 --> 01:05:50,559
in what was a cosmo was an effect. But it's

1032
01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:55,920
because uh, yeah, we've gone over an hour here. This

1033
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,000
is the last episode. I want to dedicate just to

1034
01:05:58,079 --> 01:06:00,440
mister Churchill. I want to get into the war in

1035
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:04,000
the next episode. We dealt with the assault on Poland already,

1036
01:06:04,119 --> 01:06:06,960
because we dealt with the New Deal regime. I gave him,

1037
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:09,320
after Churchill so much time because it's it's a very

1038
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:13,920
very complicated issue. I want to get into. We're gonna

1039
01:06:13,920 --> 01:06:17,119
start just next time with a little bit about Churchill's

1040
01:06:17,159 --> 01:06:18,960
you know, it's an actual ascendency of the office the

1041
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,000
Prime Minister. But then we're gonna get right into the

1042
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:25,280
war and from there I want to dedicated episode in

1043
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:27,599
Barbarosa and went on the aftermath of Nuremberg.

1044
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 1: If that sounds good to you, that sounds good to me.

1045
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 2: Great. I hope everybody got a lot out of the content.

1046
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:36,119
And if I could just plug like my substick peek,

1047
01:06:36,159 --> 01:06:37,599
that would be great, awesome.

1048
01:06:37,679 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 1: Please.

1049
01:06:38,599 --> 01:06:41,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find me at real Thomas seven seven

1050
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:45,960
seven dot substack dot com. And uh, I'm active on

1051
01:06:46,119 --> 01:06:49,599
on Telegram periodically or under a private if I'm under

1052
01:06:49,599 --> 01:06:53,719
assault by crazy people or antitha or it does happen.

1053
01:06:53,719 --> 01:06:56,440
I'm not being a murdyr, but uh, you can find

1054
01:06:56,440 --> 01:07:00,519
me on telegram. It's a public channel. It's a key

1055
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:06,480
dot me slash the THG number seven h O M

1056
01:07:06,519 --> 01:07:09,679
A S seven seven seven and I'll link to it.

1057
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:13,159
Thank you, Pete. That's great, and thanks again for hosting me.

1058
01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,079
I can't. I really appreciate it, and I really appreciate

1059
01:07:16,119 --> 01:07:18,760
everybody's support and kind of work. I really mean that

1060
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:20,039
I'm not I'm not being polite.

1061
01:07:21,519 --> 01:07:24,199
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, a lot of people are missing you on Twitter,

1062
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:24,880
that's for sure.

1063
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 2: I got to catch up a lot, I hope, Pour,

1064
01:07:29,159 --> 01:07:32,519
Mike get imperium pressed a whole lot. Uh, A material

1065
01:07:32,559 --> 01:07:35,239
I gotta and steal Storm two is gonna drop imminently,

1066
01:07:36,039 --> 01:07:40,639
and I'll make a decision midsummer about social media. I

1067
01:07:40,719 --> 01:07:42,880
just I haven't honestly haven't decided yet. I'm not trying

1068
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,400
to build a hype or or be a jiggo if.

1069
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:47,639
I honestly have not decided if I want to get

1070
01:07:47,719 --> 01:07:50,000
back on social media, but I will and I will

1071
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:53,320
always be on substick, I will always be on Telegram.

1072
01:07:53,599 --> 01:07:56,360
Speaker 1: All right, I appreciate it. Until the next time.

1073
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:57,639
Speaker 2: Thank you, Pete.

1074
01:07:58,079 --> 01:08:00,639
Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Peken Show.

1075
01:08:01,519 --> 01:08:04,280
We are continuing the series. Thomas, how are you done?

1076
01:08:04,679 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 2: I'm very well. Thank you, Keete. It's a pleasure once

1077
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:12,159
again to be continuing as we are. And like we

1078
01:08:12,239 --> 01:08:16,000
talked about just before we went live here, I think

1079
01:08:16,039 --> 01:08:19,600
this should be the last dedicated episode to mister Churchill.

1080
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:22,680
When it's a sendency and just to reiterate for the listeners,

1081
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:25,439
I'm not I'm not trying to be a pedantic boor

1082
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:27,479
by focusing so much on Churchill, like nor do I

1083
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,720
have some kind of asks to grind with certain historical

1084
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:33,159
personages like some historians do. I mean, if you don't

1085
01:08:33,199 --> 01:08:35,800
believe me, you like, read mister Kershaw on what he

1086
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:39,239
wrote about Adolf Hitler. It's like it's kind of there's

1087
01:08:39,319 --> 01:08:42,279
a there's a there's a personal hostility invested there that

1088
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:46,319
is not dignified in addition to it not being good scholarship.

1089
01:08:46,399 --> 01:08:49,239
But that's not why I focus so much on Churchill.

1090
01:08:49,319 --> 01:08:52,000
There's a political aspect to mister Churchill's career and a

1091
01:08:52,079 --> 01:08:56,920
sendency that is something of a missing piece of the

1092
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:02,439
conceptual puzzle to underst standing World War two and what

1093
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,640
is wrong with court history narratives as well as understanding

1094
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:09,920
you know, how how Churchill was able to procure the

1095
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:13,199
kind of mandate that he was and what its purpose was.

1096
01:09:13,359 --> 01:09:19,680
That's far more mysterious and uh intrigue laden than say

1097
01:09:19,720 --> 01:09:23,600
mister Roosevelt or even uh or even Stalin phrase as

1098
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:29,039
that might be. But I uh, I figure will excuse me,

1099
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:33,119
I figure will uh we'll dive right back in we

1100
01:09:33,239 --> 01:09:38,720
finished off uh last time, you know, talking about the

1101
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:44,239
the Munich the Munich crisis, which was a genuine crisis.

1102
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:47,680
You know, as we talked about characterizing it as is

1103
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:51,960
appeasement and and and and characterizing it as you know,

1104
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:54,520
a line in the sand being drawn by mister Chamberlain,

1105
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:56,560
but that he you know, but that he could not

1106
01:09:56,640 --> 01:09:58,840
back up with force, you know, when when Hitler was

1107
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:03,359
on some sort of aggressive rampage of conquest. That that's

1108
01:10:03,359 --> 01:10:06,359
a gross mischaracterization. It's not that's not me just putting

1109
01:10:06,399 --> 01:10:09,159
shine on ad off Hitler or something. It's it's a

1110
01:10:09,159 --> 01:10:13,399
grossly and accurate characterization. It's a propagandic characterization, and it

1111
01:10:13,399 --> 01:10:16,000
doesn't have anything to do with with with history as

1112
01:10:16,039 --> 01:10:19,000
it developed. And it was a crisis, but it was

1113
01:10:19,039 --> 01:10:24,600
a crisis that was entirely confabulated by the intrigues of

1114
01:10:24,600 --> 01:10:29,479
of of mister Bennets in UH in Czechoslovakia and elements

1115
01:10:29,479 --> 01:10:33,079
of the Focus and and other UH and other interested

1116
01:10:33,119 --> 01:10:37,199
parties who who had the means and the resources and

1117
01:10:37,279 --> 01:10:42,840
the deep pockets proverbially speaking, to facilitate a crisis. But

1118
01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:46,159
they they got far more than they bargained for, because

1119
01:10:46,279 --> 01:10:49,199
you know, Hitler was uh. Hitler was a very serious

1120
01:10:49,239 --> 01:10:51,600
individual and he was not somebody who could just be

1121
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,199
you know, who could just be rooked or sand bagged

1122
01:10:55,239 --> 01:10:58,399
and in the court of public opinion, and and and

1123
01:10:58,479 --> 01:11:01,640
could thereby be deprived of mandate. You know, he whether

1124
01:11:01,640 --> 01:11:04,079
he left Hitler, hate Hitler, don't have an opinion on

1125
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:09,279
on on Adolf Hitler. He was a historical personage of

1126
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:13,319
incredible gravity. And that's another thing that's important for us

1127
01:11:13,359 --> 01:11:15,720
to keep in mind. That's not a political judgment. It's

1128
01:11:16,119 --> 01:11:23,000
an objective historical judgment. But moving on, as nineteen thirty eight,

1129
01:11:23,159 --> 01:11:28,560
the game nineteen thirty nine, Winston Churchill was somewhat quiet.

1130
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:33,600
He was biting his time, probably, I mean, definitely. I mean,

1131
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:38,640
in hindsight, this is clear. The Munich crisis really caused

1132
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:42,439
some issues for the Focus. They realized that they had

1133
01:11:42,439 --> 01:11:44,880
to do a couple of things. You know, they realized

1134
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:47,439
they had to take Hitler more seriously, and she was

1135
01:11:47,479 --> 01:11:51,760
strategic terms. You know, the Focus was singularly committed to

1136
01:11:52,079 --> 01:11:55,760
to getting rid of Hitler by any means necessary, and

1137
01:11:56,079 --> 01:11:58,760
you know, regime change in Germany, even if that meant

1138
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:02,359
handing Germany over to the common they didn't care. Okay,

1139
01:12:02,399 --> 01:12:05,199
So they realized that Germany was essential to the political

1140
01:12:05,239 --> 01:12:09,199
culture of the continent and its internal situation, and they

1141
01:12:09,199 --> 01:12:13,840
always took that seriously. They did not, however, uh, take

1142
01:12:13,920 --> 01:12:18,279
Hitler seriously as a potential conqueror. I'm not using that

1143
01:12:18,359 --> 01:12:23,920
term punitively, but Hitler was a modern conqueror. That's not

1144
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:28,359
all he was. And all of his conquests weren't accomplished

1145
01:12:28,359 --> 01:12:32,239
through hostility, but that's in part what he was. And

1146
01:12:33,199 --> 01:12:36,800
he was a historical phenomenon to himself, like somebody like

1147
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:40,319
Cromwell was, or like a man like Muhammad was. That

1148
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:45,840
can't be denied. And they were Hitler's enemies, particularly mister Churchill,

1149
01:12:45,880 --> 01:12:51,640
and the focus, they became very clear without Munich resolve. Now,

1150
01:12:52,720 --> 01:12:56,279
the focus came to understand that this meant it was

1151
01:12:56,319 --> 01:13:01,840
critical to really insinuate their cause into you know, American

1152
01:13:02,359 --> 01:13:06,199
policy as in a formal capacity. Now, you know, we

1153
01:13:06,279 --> 01:13:09,760
talked about the New Dealer Revolution and mister Roosevelt, and

1154
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:12,359
we talked about a lot of these partisan figures around him,

1155
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:17,680
you know, like Morgenthal and UH and UH and Bullet

1156
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:19,760
and some of these other figures. So, I mean it

1157
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,560
was fir ground obviously for the focus to kind of

1158
01:13:23,399 --> 01:13:28,840
to kind of intrigue allies into their orbit. However, you know,

1159
01:13:28,920 --> 01:13:31,520
relations between the United States and the UK were somewhat

1160
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:33,840
frosty during this era. This is outside the scope of

1161
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:37,079
what we're talking about here, but we take for granted that,

1162
01:13:37,399 --> 01:13:40,159
you know, the the UK is as as you know,

1163
01:13:40,199 --> 01:13:43,199
as the oral characterized at Airstrip one, as you know,

1164
01:13:43,239 --> 01:13:46,319
American executives from you know, really Eisenhower on we're you know,

1165
01:13:46,359 --> 01:13:49,199
they talk about the special relationship. Well, I mean, this

1166
01:13:49,319 --> 01:13:51,880
is this is the legacy of mister Churchill's you know,

1167
01:13:52,079 --> 01:13:57,279
uh installation into the premiership and and uh and and

1168
01:13:57,359 --> 01:14:00,880
him availing you know, the resources and of the UK

1169
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:03,720
unconditionally to America. I mean, it becoming you know, quite

1170
01:14:03,720 --> 01:14:06,079
literally a client state of America. You know, this was

1171
01:14:06,119 --> 01:14:10,319
this was not the case from from uh, from uh,

1172
01:14:11,119 --> 01:14:15,279
you know, the entirety of the twentieth century until until

1173
01:14:15,359 --> 01:14:18,319
nineteen forty. Really, I mean, yes, you know, America collaborated

1174
01:14:18,359 --> 01:14:20,920
with the UK in the Great War, but you know

1175
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:23,319
a lot of and that was disastrous in its own right,

1176
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,159
and that was conspiratorial in its own right. But there

1177
01:14:26,159 --> 01:14:28,840
are very different reasons for that. And I even argue

1178
01:14:28,840 --> 01:14:31,199
that America had warmer feelings towards Paris, and I did

1179
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:34,439
London even even into the you know, early twentieth century.

1180
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,279
But so that's important to you. In nine two, what

1181
01:14:38,319 --> 01:14:40,760
I'm getting is that even though there was parallel policy

1182
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:44,359
goals and a dogmatic anti fascism characteristic of the New

1183
01:14:44,359 --> 01:14:47,960
Deal regime and the Focused regime, which it was not

1184
01:14:48,039 --> 01:14:51,359
yet formally intingued into power but was coveting that. But

1185
01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:54,000
just because these goals are parallel does not mean they

1186
01:14:54,119 --> 01:14:56,960
intersected yet or that they formally entered into alliance yet.

1187
01:14:57,439 --> 01:15:00,479
And you know, mister Roosevelt certainly wasn't gonna take orders

1188
01:15:00,520 --> 01:15:03,000
from mister Churchill, who at this point, you know, didn't

1189
01:15:03,039 --> 01:15:06,960
even have a formal office, you know, despite the fact

1190
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,520
that he become, you know, a very significant personage in

1191
01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:13,920
in in in in British political culture. So moving on,

1192
01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:18,760
uh in I instant In nineteen thirty nine, in the summer,

1193
01:15:19,079 --> 01:15:23,720
Churchill was visited by Felix Frankfurter. Felix Frankfurter was a

1194
01:15:25,079 --> 01:15:29,039
he was a a Roosevelt appointee to the Supreme Court,

1195
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,159
very long serving judge. You know, he was he was Jewish,

1196
01:15:33,199 --> 01:15:35,359
and he was very involved in Jewish causes. You know,

1197
01:15:35,399 --> 01:15:39,920
in designs causes. He had an unusual career and he

1198
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:46,199
ended up I can't remember exactly, but he was unceremoniously disbarred,

1199
01:15:46,239 --> 01:15:49,319
at least for a time. This was much later. I

1200
01:15:49,319 --> 01:15:51,920
can't remember if he was indicted or not, or just sanctioned.

1201
01:15:52,359 --> 01:15:55,359
But it was very strange, and it was strange for

1202
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:58,079
a man of his profile to be involved in this,

1203
01:15:58,279 --> 01:16:01,640
in this kind of what amount of pennante sort of corruption. Okay,

1204
01:16:01,720 --> 01:16:04,760
So he he was a he was a man of

1205
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:08,520
of of questionable character, you know, aside from politics, aside

1206
01:16:08,560 --> 01:16:11,600
from his ethnicity, all of that, you know, just based

1207
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:16,359
upon his conduct, this can't be disputed, okay. And it's

1208
01:16:16,399 --> 01:16:20,119
interesting that Felix Frankfurter is the man from Roosevelt's administration

1209
01:16:20,279 --> 01:16:23,640
who came to visit Churchill and for the purpose of

1210
01:16:23,680 --> 01:16:27,880
establishing good offices. You know, like we talked about Joseph P. Kennedy,

1211
01:16:28,279 --> 01:16:30,039
you know who was who was the father of John F.

1212
01:16:30,119 --> 01:16:34,359
Kennedy and Robert Kennedy. You know it was Roosevelt had

1213
01:16:34,399 --> 01:16:37,079
appointed him as a bass the United Kingdom, both because

1214
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:40,600
Kennedy was an enemy of Roosevelt's you know, after Roosevelt

1215
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:42,359
took the oath of office, they very much had it

1216
01:16:42,640 --> 01:16:46,000
falling out. But also, you know, Roosevelt obviously this was

1217
01:16:46,039 --> 01:16:48,079
part of the kind of lingering antagonism of the UK

1218
01:16:48,159 --> 01:16:50,760
and that a lot of the US establishment head, you know,

1219
01:16:51,039 --> 01:16:54,880
sending this kind of millionaire of Boston, irishman, you know

1220
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:59,039
who to London. That that was a highly antagonistic move,

1221
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:03,600
you know, and that was very deliberate. But you know,

1222
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:07,159
so if if, if, if, if Churchill was gonna make

1223
01:17:07,239 --> 01:17:10,119
intros into the New Dealer regime, it wasn't gonna be

1224
01:17:10,159 --> 01:17:12,640
through mister Kennedy, you know, and vice versa. If the

1225
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:14,680
New Deals wanted to reach out to mister Churchill, they

1226
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:16,760
weren't gonna do it through mister Kennedy. You know, just

1227
01:17:16,840 --> 01:17:20,199
all the table. But you know it's telling that, you know,

1228
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:23,399
it's not clear to me, and I've tried to find out.

1229
01:17:23,600 --> 01:17:27,640
I've dug deep into the record of mainstream historians of revisionists.

1230
01:17:28,399 --> 01:17:30,760
I don't know who initiated contact. I don't know if

1231
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:33,479
Churchill solicited Frankfurt who's visit. I don't know if he

1232
01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:38,119
wrote to Roosevelt, and you know, uh behooved him to

1233
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:41,479
send some sort of emissary unofficially. I don't know if

1234
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:45,039
Frankfurter took it upon himself and then reported back to Roosevelt.

1235
01:17:45,039 --> 01:17:47,359
This isn't clear. All as clear is that you know

1236
01:17:47,399 --> 01:17:52,600
they met, and this was very significant, and you know,

1237
01:17:53,199 --> 01:17:55,640
the Frankfurter, among other things, he was a very important

1238
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:59,439
man in the American Jewish Committee. Okay, the American Jewish Committee.

1239
01:17:59,439 --> 01:18:01,560
They weren't form part of the focus, but they were

1240
01:18:01,560 --> 01:18:03,840
only one or two steps removed, that makes any sense.

1241
01:18:04,239 --> 01:18:06,960
You know. We talked about Samuel Utermeyer, who is the

1242
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:09,039
New York lawyer who was a key player in the

1243
01:18:09,079 --> 01:18:12,520
World Jewish Economic Federation, which was then incorporated into the

1244
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,640
Anti Nazi Council, which was the across atlantic kind of

1245
01:18:15,680 --> 01:18:19,600
alliance that that gave the focus, uh you know, representation

1246
01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:22,960
in the United States and vice versa, gave you know, uh,

1247
01:18:23,279 --> 01:18:27,600
Zionist power, Zionist NGOs, uh you know, power in London,

1248
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:29,960
or at least representation. You know, this was done to

1249
01:18:30,039 --> 01:18:33,359
Saint Lutermeyer, and Saint Luchtermeyer was one of the key

1250
01:18:33,359 --> 01:18:36,439
players that I just said, the American Jewish Committee, and

1251
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:41,520
uh he also you know, had been utilizing the American

1252
01:18:41,560 --> 01:18:44,800
Jewish Committee, you know, he he incorporated the World Jewish

1253
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:47,720
Economic Federation, which had been uh, which had been the

1254
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:51,279
driving force behind the embargo on German goods and manufacturers,

1255
01:18:51,279 --> 01:18:54,359
you know, and that proceeded given the chrishtaal knack that

1256
01:18:54,560 --> 01:18:58,399
when when when the when the National soldierst Regeni became

1257
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:00,920
you know, as a matter of law like like highly

1258
01:19:00,960 --> 01:19:03,600
anti Jewish, you know, these n g os like went

1259
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:07,479
into action, you know, immediately. And so this is the

1260
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:10,279
way to understand Frankfurter, in my opinion is you know,

1261
01:19:10,279 --> 01:19:12,880
he was very much uh, he was very much acting

1262
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:16,359
as a as an ambassador of of of this, of this,

1263
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:18,840
of this faction, you know, the World Jewish and Nonal Federation,

1264
01:19:19,319 --> 01:19:22,119
the American Jewish Committee, you know, man like Samuel luon Termeier.

1265
01:19:22,279 --> 01:19:24,720
But Frankfurter because he was a jurist, you know, he

1266
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:27,720
actually was friendly with Roosevelt, you know, and he was

1267
01:19:27,760 --> 01:19:30,760
an important man. You know. Even today, you know, even

1268
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:32,960
though government doesn't have the kind of prestige it did

1269
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:35,600
and it's populated by fools that we all kind of lampoon,

1270
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:38,840
you know, it's Supreme Court justice has a lot of power.

1271
01:19:38,880 --> 01:19:41,079
You know, I'd say today the Supreme Court is even

1272
01:19:41,159 --> 01:19:44,239
more power than the presidency. But in those days, you know,

1273
01:19:44,319 --> 01:19:47,079
certainly the president seems to see a sovereignty. But if

1274
01:19:47,079 --> 01:19:49,560
you were any federal judge, let alone a Supreme Court justice,

1275
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:51,520
I mean you you were a man with a serious clout,

1276
01:19:52,119 --> 01:19:55,359
you know. So this was, uh, this this is highly significant.

1277
01:19:55,359 --> 01:19:57,399
This wasn't just Frankfurter saying, you know, I like I

1278
01:19:57,439 --> 01:19:59,640
like mister Churchill, and you know, I like his style

1279
01:19:59,720 --> 01:20:02,199
and it's hats and even as a fat fuck, I

1280
01:20:02,279 --> 01:20:03,680
like the fact that he wants to, you know, set

1281
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:05,720
the Jewish people free. He's I'm gonna go visit him. No,

1282
01:20:06,279 --> 01:20:08,640
you know, this was obviously like very very official, you know,

1283
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:11,239
it was it was uh, it was he was he

1284
01:20:11,279 --> 01:20:13,680
was a heavy that frankfurt was a boss. You know.

1285
01:20:14,119 --> 01:20:17,840
I argue that he was the most powerful Jewish political

1286
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:26,079
figure in the United States at the time. Okay, So Frankfurter, Uh,

1287
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:29,239
immediately before his appointment, you know, when he an FDR,

1288
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:32,239
we're kind of articulating, trying to feel each other out

1289
01:20:32,279 --> 01:20:37,439
about about common policy ambitions, you know, and goals. Frankfurter

1290
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:40,920
written FDR admonishing him to always emphasize the Nazi threat.

1291
01:20:41,319 --> 01:20:44,960
His words, the quote Nazi threat. You know, he said,

1292
01:20:45,079 --> 01:20:47,920
you know, you've always got to emphasize that the Nazi

1293
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,560
threat is responsible, you know, for you know, not just

1294
01:20:50,600 --> 01:20:53,560
for threatening freedom and peace on the planet. You know,

1295
01:20:53,560 --> 01:20:56,840
there's another catchphrase of of of Frankfurter's and that the

1296
01:20:56,880 --> 01:20:59,880
focus later took out and church himself took on. You know,

1297
01:20:59,880 --> 01:21:02,600
we talked earlier about a Churchill. You know, he's he's

1298
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:05,840
he's he's uh, he's praised as being this brilliant order

1299
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:07,760
or Churchill didn't write a lot of his own speeches.

1300
01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:10,600
You know, a lot of this stuff is propaganda copy,

1301
01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:13,159
you know, put out uh, you know by guys like Baruk,

1302
01:21:13,840 --> 01:21:16,359
by guys by Wickhams like Wickham Steed, you know, by

1303
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:20,000
by organizations and then g os you know, like the uh,

1304
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:22,119
like those set it up by you know, men like

1305
01:21:22,319 --> 01:21:26,600
Untemeyer and by Frankfurt. You know, so these these these

1306
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:29,560
phrases appure again and again. It's highly or William okay,

1307
01:21:29,720 --> 01:21:34,920
if you'll forgive to kind of overuse the adjective, but

1308
01:21:35,119 --> 01:21:38,399
he uh, you know, Frankfurt is big, uh, his big

1309
01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:40,520
idea in terms of you know, what would you consider

1310
01:21:40,560 --> 01:21:43,880
to be like information warfare or perhaps disinformation or you know,

1311
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:46,560
more benignly perhaps, you know, his idea for you know,

1312
01:21:46,600 --> 01:21:48,520
kind of selling the narrative of the New Deal was,

1313
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:50,560
you know, you've got to you've got to present domestic

1314
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:54,920
policy efforts as and and priorities as being inextricably bound

1315
01:21:55,039 --> 01:21:58,359
up with foreign policy issues, you know, particularly the threat

1316
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:00,880
you know to our freedom and his you know, not

1317
01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:03,319
just their national security, of our prosperity, you know, and

1318
01:22:03,359 --> 01:22:06,119
the ability you know, if people in America you know,

1319
01:22:06,199 --> 01:22:08,840
to to you know, to live freely and you know,

1320
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:10,960
all enjoy due process into the law. You know, we've

1321
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:13,520
got to present we've got we've got to present, you know,

1322
01:22:14,159 --> 01:22:18,279
Berlin and Hitler and the National Socialists as this existential

1323
01:22:18,319 --> 01:22:20,720
threat to you know, to our way of life, you know,

1324
01:22:20,800 --> 01:22:23,000
and if people say that, you know, well, you know

1325
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:25,119
they're a bulwark against the communists. We've got to shout

1326
01:22:25,159 --> 01:22:28,840
them down. And Churchill was very receptive to this, you know.

1327
01:22:29,159 --> 01:22:34,039
And Churchill having been silent after the you know, in

1328
01:22:34,319 --> 01:22:38,760
large part after the Munich fiasco, you know, he he

1329
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:42,600
started he started agitating in earnest you know, once again,

1330
01:22:42,760 --> 01:22:46,279
you know, as as nineteen thirty eight became a nineteen

1331
01:22:46,279 --> 01:22:49,239
thirty nine you know, he started saying, like, look, you know,

1332
01:22:49,359 --> 01:22:52,600
like Chamberlain, Chamberlain took a knee because Chamberlain's weak, you know,

1333
01:22:52,600 --> 01:22:54,319
and he's not a man who can stand up to

1334
01:22:55,479 --> 01:22:57,560
We can stand up to the Nazi threat, you know.

1335
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,399
And and Churchill literally said in ninety thirty nine time,

1336
01:23:00,920 --> 01:23:02,720
you know, on the floor of Parliament. You know, he said,

1337
01:23:02,760 --> 01:23:07,239
you know, the Nazi threat is represents immortal danger to

1338
01:23:07,279 --> 01:23:09,760
our quote freedom and peace. You know, that's him literally

1339
01:23:09,760 --> 01:23:13,000
invoking you know, the phraseology of Frankfurt orn FDR, you know,

1340
01:23:13,000 --> 01:23:15,119
which is interesting and you got to you gotta keep

1341
01:23:15,159 --> 01:23:17,000
in mind in these days. You know, we're talking about

1342
01:23:17,079 --> 01:23:19,359
nineteen thirty nine. You know, we're talking about when there's

1343
01:23:19,359 --> 01:23:21,439
not even a radio in every home. Okay, Like it's

1344
01:23:21,479 --> 01:23:23,720
not it's not like today, or like memes you know,

1345
01:23:23,760 --> 01:23:26,279
hop across the ocean within minutes, or or you know,

1346
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:28,560
you've got people and you know, three in continents who

1347
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:31,079
all kind of have common reference points in terms of

1348
01:23:31,079 --> 01:23:35,439
that they're their political vernacular or their propaganda phraseology or

1349
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:38,119
or advertising slogans. You know, this is you know a

1350
01:23:38,119 --> 01:23:40,880
man like particularly a personage of this the status at

1351
01:23:40,960 --> 01:23:44,920
Churchill like literally parroting what some you know, Jewish Supreme

1352
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:48,239
Portresses from America said, who himself kind of borrowed, you know,

1353
01:23:48,279 --> 01:23:50,760
the phraseology from the President of United States. You know

1354
01:23:50,800 --> 01:23:54,119
that's that's that's notable, okay. And it's indicative of very

1355
01:23:54,159 --> 01:23:58,119
much a relationship, a patronage, and it's indicative of a

1356
01:23:58,399 --> 01:24:01,000
of a very managed career, you know, in Churchill being

1357
01:24:01,039 --> 01:24:06,960
the managed uh uh quantity here. Okay. Now, immediately after

1358
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:11,399
Frankfurt's departure from London, you know, a a this dismassive

1359
01:24:11,439 --> 01:24:14,800
media campaign was unleashed, okay. You know, like we talked about,

1360
01:24:15,199 --> 01:24:17,680
you know, church would become persona non grata with Lord

1361
01:24:17,760 --> 01:24:21,880
Rothermere and Lord Beaverbrook, you know they Rothermure, you know,

1362
01:24:21,960 --> 01:24:25,880
he was was in some ways, uh actually positive about

1363
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:29,399
Adolf Hitler and and close to Mosley beaver Brook. I

1364
01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:32,239
I don't believe there's anything that could insinuate any such

1365
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:34,960
you know, insinuate him into any that that same New

1366
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:38,800
lou But Beaverbrook was very anti war and you know,

1367
01:24:38,880 --> 01:24:41,680
he he he, he recognized that church was a warmonger

1368
01:24:41,720 --> 01:24:43,960
and he was a cynic, you know, but other than

1369
01:24:44,479 --> 01:24:47,760
other than other than Rothermere, and beaver Brook, you know,

1370
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:52,560
essentially refusing to give church Will a platform every other

1371
01:24:52,640 --> 01:24:58,960
major uh newspaper outlet was uh was was was was,

1372
01:24:59,319 --> 01:25:03,000
you know, giving church as much copy as as they

1373
01:25:03,039 --> 01:25:06,720
could muster without it, you know, to be a little

1374
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:11,319
organ of some ango to coalesced to install him in office.

1375
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:14,159
I mean they should have been by to modern eyes,

1376
01:25:14,199 --> 01:25:16,119
this is obvious. But again this was you know, nineteen

1377
01:25:16,159 --> 01:25:20,119
thirty nine. But the Daily Telegraph led this charge, okay,

1378
01:25:21,159 --> 01:25:24,079
pretty much overnight, you know, premium edge space was purchased,

1379
01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:27,039
you know, uh, declaring that you know, Churchill is the

1380
01:25:27,079 --> 01:25:29,039
only man who can protect us from the German threat,

1381
01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:32,680
you know, and and land Bassing Chamberlain, you know, on uh,

1382
01:25:33,720 --> 01:25:37,439
Chamberlain wrote to one of his intimates. I can't remember

1383
01:25:37,439 --> 01:25:39,640
if it was I can't remember if it was a

1384
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:42,640
female cousin or just a female friend. But there's this

1385
01:25:43,159 --> 01:25:48,079
Chamberlain maintain a voluminous correspondence, you know, like a lot

1386
01:25:48,079 --> 01:25:51,640
of englishmen of the day did. And uh he wrote

1387
01:25:51,720 --> 01:25:54,239
kind of in shock that one day this massive billboard

1388
01:25:54,279 --> 01:25:56,319
appear on the strand, you know, just saying, you know,

1389
01:25:56,479 --> 01:25:59,960
Churchill ar man in giant letters, you know, and then

1390
01:26:00,199 --> 01:26:02,079
this was kind of thing was unheard of in those days.

1391
01:26:02,119 --> 01:26:04,880
You know, this kind of like Mussolini had pioneered some

1392
01:26:04,920 --> 01:26:08,279
of that, and Adolf Hitler, you know, he he'd campaigned

1393
01:26:08,279 --> 01:26:11,239
by aircraft, you know, hopping around Germany. But this kind

1394
01:26:11,239 --> 01:26:15,239
of full court press, you know, full full spectrum utilization

1395
01:26:15,359 --> 01:26:18,920
of print media, of movie house uh uh, visual media

1396
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:23,119
of uh you know, street billboards. They've been hired. They

1397
01:26:23,239 --> 01:26:25,239
they there was there was women who were hired who

1398
01:26:25,239 --> 01:26:29,159
were sandwich boards, you know, like you know, dozens sometimes

1399
01:26:29,199 --> 01:26:30,840
as many as a few one hundred women to just

1400
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:34,239
you know appear uh, outside Parliament wearing sandwich boards, you know,

1401
01:26:34,319 --> 01:26:36,600
saying Churchill or man. You know, they were all hired,

1402
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:39,319
they were paid to do this, but it appeared spontaneous,

1403
01:26:39,359 --> 01:26:41,680
and people hadn't seen this kind of thing before, you know,

1404
01:26:41,840 --> 01:26:44,800
so even even people who weren't particularly sold on Churchill,

1405
01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:47,479
you know, or even people hadn't even followed his career

1406
01:26:47,479 --> 01:26:50,960
particularly closely, you know, like working people weren't all that sophisticated.

1407
01:26:51,119 --> 01:26:54,279
You know, this kind of climate, a conceptual environment was

1408
01:26:54,319 --> 01:26:57,479
created where it just seemed Churchill this inevitable. Churchill had

1409
01:26:57,479 --> 01:27:01,000
this inevitable momentum, and I mean he used this. This

1410
01:27:01,119 --> 01:27:03,600
is even though it's coming up on a century into

1411
01:27:03,640 --> 01:27:07,279
our past, this remains kind of the default tactic for

1412
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:11,840
you know, manufacturing a mandate you know, at the ballot box. Okay,

1413
01:27:12,119 --> 01:27:15,840
Uh Cruis it might seem that's there's when we a

1414
01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:18,279
limited number of ways can to accomplish this, you know,

1415
01:27:18,319 --> 01:27:21,119
even if diversified as media platforms are, you know today

1416
01:27:21,199 --> 01:27:23,560
the morling's changed when I stay the same. So this

1417
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:25,279
has got the first instance of an n g O

1418
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:29,319
with tremendous you know, cloud and media and a tremendous

1419
01:27:29,439 --> 01:27:33,439
amount of money, you know, creating quite literally a climate

1420
01:27:33,720 --> 01:27:37,680
of public opinion where one man's a sendency seems inevitable,

1421
01:27:38,039 --> 01:27:39,840
you know, and that that's that's kind of the ultimate

1422
01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:44,199
bandwagon intrigue. Okay, you know it's it's almost like it's

1423
01:27:44,199 --> 01:27:46,399
almost like man made weather. There's a way to think

1424
01:27:46,399 --> 01:27:48,680
about it. You know, in the Oliver Stone movie National

1425
01:27:48,720 --> 01:27:53,319
Borne Killers, that's the one of the anti heroes. Uh player,

1426
01:27:53,399 --> 01:27:56,560
whatdy Harrelson. He's talking about media and how media creates

1427
01:27:57,199 --> 01:28:01,439
are like individually and collectively it literally mean effects our

1428
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:04,279
image of public figures. And because it's like man made weather,

1429
01:28:04,359 --> 01:28:06,680
he says well as as he poignant. You know, it's

1430
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:12,000
it's not just something something dropped in a lurid movie.

1431
01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:17,159
Now Churchill finds that, you know, as time goes on,

1432
01:28:17,359 --> 01:28:22,039
you know, his nineteen thirty nine drags on it, the

1433
01:28:22,079 --> 01:28:25,079
focus finds fertile ground because Chamberlain. There's a lot of

1434
01:28:25,239 --> 01:28:28,520
people are not handy with Chamberlain for all kinds of reasons.

1435
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:29,720
You know, a lot of these had nothing to do

1436
01:28:29,760 --> 01:28:31,560
with munich O than the fact that they feel he

1437
01:28:31,600 --> 01:28:34,439
botched the entire affair, you know, not even people didn't

1438
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:36,800
have any animates towards Germany. You know, he just did

1439
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:40,640
not seem combetent to manage the power political landscape and

1440
01:28:40,680 --> 01:28:44,159
the tremendous stakes that were involved. And with some of

1441
01:28:44,199 --> 01:28:48,279
these people like Archie Sinclair, who's leader of the Liberal Party,

1442
01:28:48,720 --> 01:28:52,920
he just hated Chamberlain, you know, and he declared, which

1443
01:28:52,960 --> 01:28:57,239
is incredibly stupid, He declared that if Parliament convened earlier,

1444
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:00,560
you know, in the in nineteen thirty eight and mobilized,

1445
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:02,640
you know that you know something, come to some kind

1446
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,720
of agreement and developed some kind of quorum of of

1447
01:29:05,760 --> 01:29:09,359
a of a you know, a war party in essence,

1448
01:29:09,399 --> 01:29:11,279
you know, they could have deployed the Royal Navy and

1449
01:29:11,279 --> 01:29:14,359
to stay able to concord Moscow and then assaulted Germany

1450
01:29:14,640 --> 01:29:16,520
and then you know, defeated. You know, Germany would have

1451
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:19,039
gone down in defeat and they would have saved Czechoslovakia,

1452
01:29:19,399 --> 01:29:22,000
which is completely preposterous, and why would you want to

1453
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:24,640
save Chechoslovakia? Anyway, it was, it was, it was. It

1454
01:29:24,640 --> 01:29:26,800
was a complete contrivance. That's like saying, you want to

1455
01:29:26,840 --> 01:29:30,439
save East Germany. But the fact is, you know Churchill,

1456
01:29:30,680 --> 01:29:32,920
like he churned up again, repeating this like a mantra.

1457
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:36,199
So you had these people for cynical reasons, you know,

1458
01:29:36,359 --> 01:29:40,479
not just important personages like Sinclair, you know who hated

1459
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:42,640
you know, you know, every man was you know, whether

1460
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:45,239
it was liberal, whether he was Tory, whether it was labor,

1461
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:47,439
you know, if he had an extra grind with Chamberlain.

1462
01:29:47,600 --> 01:29:49,960
You know, this this became his mantru. You know, Churchill

1463
01:29:50,039 --> 01:29:52,680
ran with it, you know. And Churchill had more exposure,

1464
01:29:53,039 --> 01:29:55,199
uh than a lot of these guys. Even though he's

1465
01:29:55,199 --> 01:29:57,680
still at this point, even if he was about to like,

1466
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:00,960
he still didn't have you know, uh, he still didn't

1467
01:30:00,960 --> 01:30:05,479
have a formal role in government. So rightly or wrongly.

1468
01:30:06,039 --> 01:30:10,119
You know, the this this anxiety written public who increasingly,

1469
01:30:10,640 --> 01:30:12,600
you know, however unfair it may have been. You know,

1470
01:30:12,640 --> 01:30:17,199
they view Chamberlain's a failing PM, and uh, they all

1471
01:30:17,239 --> 01:30:20,880
all these important people from you know, different positions in

1472
01:30:20,920 --> 01:30:23,720
the proverbial aisle. You know, we're calling, we're calling for

1473
01:30:23,800 --> 01:30:27,680
Chamberlain to go. And Churchill kind of became, you know,

1474
01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:32,079
the proverbial you know, grand marcial leading that parade. You know,

1475
01:30:32,159 --> 01:30:34,920
it didn't matter that this was a completely cynical effort.

1476
01:30:35,159 --> 01:30:37,000
You know, Churchill was the Churchill was everywhere. You know,

1477
01:30:37,079 --> 01:30:39,399
like I said, you know, he had this tremendous media

1478
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:43,359
beats behind him. So what matters the perception that reality,

1479
01:30:43,399 --> 01:30:46,119
and eventually perception becomes reality. You know, I don't need

1480
01:30:46,159 --> 01:30:48,239
to tell anybody that after what we went through with

1481
01:30:48,479 --> 01:30:54,960
you know, twenty two. At least, I don't think so.

1482
01:30:55,199 --> 01:30:57,760
But maybe I'm maybe I'm maybe I'm going olden seenile,

1483
01:30:57,760 --> 01:31:03,079
but I don't think so. Yeah, but at nineteen thirty nine,

1484
01:31:03,680 --> 01:31:08,079
what what uh? What happens? Uh? What happened in September third,

1485
01:31:08,199 --> 01:31:10,800
nineteen thirty nine, Well, you know, the Vermont crosses the

1486
01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:14,199
Polish frontier and one of the first episodes in this series.

1487
01:31:14,239 --> 01:31:15,840
You know, we got into that, so I don't think

1488
01:31:15,880 --> 01:31:17,880
we need to deep dive back into the causes of

1489
01:31:17,920 --> 01:31:21,399
that and the kind of and the kind of detailed

1490
01:31:21,399 --> 01:31:25,479
bailfield details of that. But you know it obviously, you know,

1491
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:28,359
as we know the you know, London had uh had

1492
01:31:28,359 --> 01:31:31,880
granted war guarantee the Polish military hunto you know, which

1493
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:36,279
which was incredibly foolish and it was probably exponentially more

1494
01:31:36,279 --> 01:31:42,079
foolish than uh, the the the overtures they'd made towards uh, Czechoslovakia.

1495
01:31:42,119 --> 01:31:48,920
But that doesn't matter anymore because now war is underway now. Baldwin,

1496
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:52,680
to his credit, you know, who'd uh, who'd been who'd

1497
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:56,920
uh you know, who'd been really kind of unfairly lambasted

1498
01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:03,199
as as a lame duck foreign policy executive. Uh this

1499
01:32:03,319 --> 01:32:05,439
only this stuck in my head and David David Irving's

1500
01:32:05,479 --> 01:32:08,439
simile that into Baldwin and I am too. Ramsey McDonald,

1501
01:32:08,520 --> 01:32:11,119
Baldwin or I think are very compelling figures. I'm both

1502
01:32:11,199 --> 01:32:14,880
very honorable in their own right. Baldwin's declared quote that

1503
01:32:15,039 --> 01:32:17,840
rhetoric is the haarlet of discourse, and he said that

1504
01:32:17,920 --> 01:32:20,880
Churchill is a master of of of rhetoric and fasting

1505
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:24,640
and educated masses of people with rhetoric. And that's true. Uh,

1506
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:28,720
that's as That's exactly what he was. And uh Churchill,

1507
01:32:28,960 --> 01:32:34,079
despite uh still you know, uh despite still uh still

1508
01:32:34,119 --> 01:32:39,359
being only equivalent to Minister without portfolio, he uh he

1509
01:32:39,399 --> 01:32:42,840
gives us first wartime speech. Okay, I mean it's the

1510
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:51,000
day of September third, after by eleven am if Germany,

1511
01:32:51,359 --> 01:32:53,800
London gave Germany an ultimatum that if they did not

1512
01:32:54,159 --> 01:32:58,359
retreat back over the German frontier and and all offensive

1513
01:32:58,359 --> 01:33:01,439
operations by eleven am, that war would be declared. And

1514
01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:04,560
so obviously that came and went, you know, and the

1515
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:08,119
UK is now at war. So Churchill takes the opportunity

1516
01:33:08,159 --> 01:33:12,399
to respond to Baldwin and he declares that Baldwin should

1517
01:33:12,399 --> 01:33:16,039
be ashamed for wuinning party before a country. Now, this

1518
01:33:16,079 --> 01:33:20,079
is really offensive coming from mister Churchill. I don't think

1519
01:33:20,159 --> 01:33:23,520
character evidence generally is is a good is a good

1520
01:33:23,520 --> 01:33:26,800
way to analyze the performance or the integrity of of

1521
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:30,560
of a statesman. But in Churchill's case, he opens the

1522
01:33:30,600 --> 01:33:33,760
door to that kind of thing. Okay, because Churchill was

1523
01:33:33,760 --> 01:33:36,399
the one who's always going around claiming other people like integrity. Well,

1524
01:33:36,520 --> 01:33:39,239
church was a man who switched his party allegiance every

1525
01:33:39,239 --> 01:33:42,359
few years according to what you know, direction the wind

1526
01:33:42,479 --> 01:33:45,039
was blowing in terms of policy preferences the voting public.

1527
01:33:45,399 --> 01:33:48,359
He had literally been bought off by his Zionist NGO.

1528
01:33:48,960 --> 01:33:51,319
He was pursuing a policy of war at all costs

1529
01:33:51,640 --> 01:33:54,840
and agitating for ward all costs without regard to, you know,

1530
01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:57,760
the lives that would be sacrificed, without regard to the

1531
01:33:57,840 --> 01:34:00,479
impact on you know, the flower of Britain, if youth,

1532
01:34:00,800 --> 01:34:03,760
without regard to you know, what this would do to

1533
01:34:03,800 --> 01:34:07,199
the fortunes of the empire woming forward. But you know,

1534
01:34:08,319 --> 01:34:13,039
oblivious to anything approaching self awareness, he goes on a

1535
01:34:13,039 --> 01:34:15,880
record declaring that you know, well, you know, we've got

1536
01:34:15,880 --> 01:34:17,920
a suit for war, and anybody who disagrees with me,

1537
01:34:18,039 --> 01:34:20,600
like Baldwin, is just putting party before country. As a

1538
01:34:20,640 --> 01:34:23,399
man who literally has been bought by Zionists, like many

1539
01:34:23,760 --> 01:34:26,359
many of whom don't even have formal residency in the

1540
01:34:26,439 --> 01:34:30,319
United Kingdom, let alone allegiance to you know, Churchill's country

1541
01:34:30,359 --> 01:34:34,039
that he supposedly is you know, so so so devoted

1542
01:34:34,039 --> 01:34:36,079
to that he's willing to sacrifice anything, just to stick

1543
01:34:36,119 --> 01:34:41,800
it to Berlin. Now, this is characteristic at Churchill. Something

1544
01:34:41,840 --> 01:34:46,479
that Roosevelt, who Frank, I mean, we'll get into this

1545
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:51,760
when we get into the episode in the Warriors. Roosevelt

1546
01:34:52,039 --> 01:34:56,079
confided when frankfurt A returned, I don't know if it's

1547
01:34:56,159 --> 01:34:59,640
dead words, but he said that Churchill had you a

1548
01:34:59,680 --> 01:35:01,600
dais to try and talk to him in other heads

1549
01:35:01,600 --> 01:35:04,239
of state, like he was their peers, you know. And

1550
01:35:04,279 --> 01:35:10,039
the Roosevelt's notion was that this this, this, this indicates

1551
01:35:10,039 --> 01:35:13,760
a complete obliviousness to the way diplomacy is conducted, particularly

1552
01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:16,760
a man at Churchill's kind of station and background, whatever

1553
01:35:16,800 --> 01:35:19,399
his problems are, however much he may be drinking, however

1554
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:21,479
long he's been out a formal office. This is a

1555
01:35:21,520 --> 01:35:24,640
big full pie. You don't behave that way. It's an embarrassment.

1556
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:29,239
And beyond that, being the consonant Machiavelli in FDR, what

1557
01:35:29,279 --> 01:35:31,319
he's really saying is this kind of shakes my confidence

1558
01:35:31,319 --> 01:35:34,239
in this fan bastard, you know, because he's gotta you know,

1559
01:35:34,279 --> 01:35:37,000
basically shore these things up. I believe this is one

1560
01:35:37,000 --> 01:35:39,920
of the reasons why Churchill stopped being the master of

1561
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:42,560
his own copy. In terms of speeches. It wasn't just

1562
01:35:42,600 --> 01:35:47,239
this incident, but you can find a dozen incidents like this, okay,

1563
01:35:47,720 --> 01:35:52,159
where church will engage in some serious, full pa and

1564
01:35:52,359 --> 01:35:56,960
alienated some key personage, whether it's Roosevelt, whether it's vance Attart,

1565
01:35:57,600 --> 01:36:03,159
whether it was the the uh, whether it was Lord Simon.

1566
01:36:04,479 --> 01:36:06,920
This happens again and again, okay, And like I said,

1567
01:36:06,960 --> 01:36:09,960
I'm sure some people are gonna say that that's me

1568
01:36:10,039 --> 01:36:12,079
taking a page from the playbook and mister Kruse show,

1569
01:36:12,119 --> 01:36:14,520
I'm just putting shit on a historical person that you

1570
01:36:14,560 --> 01:36:17,199
don't like. But i that's not what I'm doing. This

1571
01:36:17,199 --> 01:36:21,399
this is relevant because Churchill's held out is this almost

1572
01:36:21,680 --> 01:36:29,840
divinely uh you know, uh, without flaw kind of figure

1573
01:36:29,880 --> 01:36:33,680
who sacrificed for his country and for humanity against this

1574
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:37,960
kind of unspeakable evil. You know, when in reality, now,

1575
01:36:38,159 --> 01:36:40,279
not only was Churchill, you know, a politician and a

1576
01:36:40,359 --> 01:36:42,760
very corrupt man, he was probably one of the most

1577
01:36:42,760 --> 01:36:46,600
corrupt major political figures of the twentieth century. And he

1578
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:48,800
was certainly a trader to his own people. You know,

1579
01:36:48,840 --> 01:36:51,600
he was literally a judas. You know. However, anybody feels

1580
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:56,680
about the Third Reich or Zionism or anything else. You know,

1581
01:36:56,720 --> 01:36:59,119
they can't beat the night. You know, there's not there's

1582
01:36:59,119 --> 01:37:01,680
not is not any way you can put a gloss

1583
01:37:01,760 --> 01:37:04,399
on on on trees in the one's own kid and kin.

1584
01:37:04,520 --> 01:37:11,319
And that's exactly what Churchill did. Now moving on he

1585
01:37:11,520 --> 01:37:19,680
uh he uh did I I We talked before about

1586
01:37:19,680 --> 01:37:24,680
how uh Churchill really most of what he spoke when

1587
01:37:24,680 --> 01:37:27,039
he when speaking of Germany, he he mostly spoke in

1588
01:37:27,079 --> 01:37:30,039
terms of moral can't you know when when people would

1589
01:37:30,079 --> 01:37:34,600
challenge him, you know, in including Baldwin, but uh also

1590
01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:37,800
in more direct terms, you know, people like uh beaver

1591
01:37:37,880 --> 01:37:40,520
broke and challenged him. He saly declared that, you know,

1592
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:43,560
the barbarity of dictatorships, you know, would you know, call

1593
01:37:43,680 --> 01:37:46,760
for you know, call for resistance by any means necessary.

1594
01:37:47,800 --> 01:37:50,840
But what exai was Churchill talking about? Here? Churchill was

1595
01:37:50,880 --> 01:37:53,600
the guy who in the immediate in the immediate aftermath

1596
01:37:53,640 --> 01:37:56,199
of the Eastern Rising, he said that, you know, we

1597
01:37:56,239 --> 01:37:58,359
need to dispense with you know, normal kind of customs

1598
01:37:58,399 --> 01:38:00,560
and laws of warfare and start you know, treating non

1599
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:03,239
combatants of hostiles. And he was basically talking about ethnically

1600
01:38:03,239 --> 01:38:07,239
cleansing the Irish and was killing them until they stopped misbehaving.

1601
01:38:07,880 --> 01:38:10,840
You know, he spoke of the Indian, he spoke of

1602
01:38:11,039 --> 01:38:15,199
the subcontinent populations generally is just kind of subhuman, you know.

1603
01:38:15,239 --> 01:38:18,560
And he he declared that German anti Semitism was quote

1604
01:38:18,560 --> 01:38:22,159
a crime against all men. But in terms, Will didn't

1605
01:38:22,199 --> 01:38:25,800
care a whit when the Poles were ethnically cleansing Jews

1606
01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:28,479
when they passed the Nationality Act in ninety thirty eight,

1607
01:38:29,119 --> 01:38:33,279
you know, demanding a demanding a territorial concessions from the

1608
01:38:33,279 --> 01:38:36,479
Baltic under threat of a military assault, when they were

1609
01:38:36,520 --> 01:38:39,439
ethnically cleansing Germans under frontier, you know, when they were

1610
01:38:39,479 --> 01:38:41,960
doing essentially the exact same thing that the Germans did

1611
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:44,239
in the passage of the Nuremberg Laws. I'm not saying

1612
01:38:44,239 --> 01:38:46,560
that to say bad things about Polish people or Poland

1613
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:48,720
that's not the point. Like the points that you are

1614
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:51,680
going to strike these moral postures, There's got to be

1615
01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:55,520
some sort of consistency or it's just absurd and buffoonish.

1616
01:38:55,600 --> 01:38:57,960
And I mean this has echoes today. You know. I'm

1617
01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:01,479
not saying that even Churchill had a you know, even

1618
01:39:01,479 --> 01:39:03,840
if the country he represented had a resume that was

1619
01:39:04,039 --> 01:39:06,199
kind of more in line with these before values that

1620
01:39:06,239 --> 01:39:08,600
they would have, you know, some kind of some kind

1621
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:10,560
of weight. I'm not saying that at all, but I'm

1622
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:12,279
saying that there's got to be at least some modicum

1623
01:39:12,279 --> 01:39:15,800
of consistency. Otherwise you're not to be taken seriously, you know,

1624
01:39:16,159 --> 01:39:19,119
otherwise you're obviously engaged in a kind of game, you know,

1625
01:39:19,159 --> 01:39:21,199
in a kind of Ledgered Maine that that appeals only

1626
01:39:21,239 --> 01:39:26,079
to the most kind of foolish. But uh, the.

1627
01:39:26,199 --> 01:39:35,159
Speaker 3: Uh the uh, you know, to that, uh, to that,

1628
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:43,439
to that end, Churchill finally got his way, or not completely,

1629
01:39:43,560 --> 01:39:48,319
but with the uh, with the assault uh on Poland.

1630
01:39:48,680 --> 01:39:51,560
Speaker 2: Chamberlain had a real serious problem. I mean, Chamberla had

1631
01:39:51,560 --> 01:39:54,319
more problems than anybody thought. Chamberlain was actually dying cancer

1632
01:39:55,359 --> 01:39:56,800
and we'll tell him to that in a minute, but

1633
01:39:56,880 --> 01:39:58,880
he I mean, that's one of the things that I

1634
01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:01,039
kind of I think WARN's bit of sympathy for him,

1635
01:40:01,079 --> 01:40:06,439
considering what he was enduring. But regardless about Chamberlain, it

1636
01:40:06,520 --> 01:40:09,560
felt about you know, the prospect of war with Germany.

1637
01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:12,399
You know, they for better or worse. You know, London

1638
01:40:12,479 --> 01:40:16,039
was at war with Germany now and it was done okay,

1639
01:40:17,399 --> 01:40:23,159
and he needed a war cabinet now uh. The uh,

1640
01:40:23,399 --> 01:40:25,760
he brings Churchill into the government as Lord of the

1641
01:40:25,760 --> 01:40:28,840
Admiralty once again. You know which church will you know,

1642
01:40:28,920 --> 01:40:33,560
the Church will not enjoy that post in twenty years.

1643
01:40:33,600 --> 01:40:36,600
And so he was ecstatic because you know, we talked

1644
01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:38,560
like we talked about I think in the first episode

1645
01:40:38,600 --> 01:40:41,199
dealing with the church elite. He seemed he seemed to

1646
01:40:41,239 --> 01:40:45,359
be most happy when when uh when when he was

1647
01:40:45,399 --> 01:40:49,439
in a when he was in a position to play warlord,

1648
01:40:49,640 --> 01:40:53,000
you know, despite his his his naked ineptitude in the role.

1649
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:58,800
You know. It's uh. Now, once again back to Churchill's

1650
01:40:58,840 --> 01:41:01,800
moral can't uh uh And this this, this is going

1651
01:41:01,840 --> 01:41:04,479
to tie back together when we get into the when

1652
01:41:04,520 --> 01:41:06,760
we get into the addendum episode dealing with Nuremberg's And

1653
01:41:06,840 --> 01:41:10,560
I'm not just I'm not taking a page from the

1654
01:41:10,680 --> 01:41:13,600
from the outrage of Manual of the Woke and trying

1655
01:41:13,600 --> 01:41:15,880
to list you know, kind of like you know, bad

1656
01:41:15,960 --> 01:41:18,319
acts or crime to the British Empire or something. But

1657
01:41:19,640 --> 01:41:24,880
considering the claims presented by Churchill and the focus and uh,

1658
01:41:24,960 --> 01:41:28,760
his purported raison veetra for his war on Germany, these

1659
01:41:28,760 --> 01:41:37,039
things are relevant. Now Churchill publicly endorsed what had been

1660
01:41:37,039 --> 01:41:41,319
agreed upon it with respect of the Panama Treaty. The

1661
01:41:41,359 --> 01:41:46,680
Panama Treaty declared that in the America, as the United States,

1662
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:50,439
and you know, in in Central and South America, all

1663
01:41:50,520 --> 01:41:54,000
countries that were not combatants, you know, and there were

1664
01:41:54,000 --> 01:41:58,119
non combatant states and also were not colonies or dominions

1665
01:41:58,159 --> 01:42:01,000
of combatant states, you know, there would be there would

1666
01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:03,640
be no hostilities within three hundred miles of uh of

1667
01:42:03,760 --> 01:42:09,399
territorial wars. Well Church relation and memo immediately after publishing

1668
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:12,520
publicly endorsing the idea of a three hundred mile neutral

1669
01:42:12,600 --> 01:42:19,560
zone extending from you know, territorial territorial waters in the Americas,

1670
01:42:19,159 --> 01:42:21,680
he he issued in order of anialty that the World

1671
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:26,039
Navy was to completely disregard this. Okay, so this is

1672
01:42:26,079 --> 01:42:27,920
a man who did not have respect for the laws

1673
01:42:27,920 --> 01:42:29,920
and customs of war or treaty law when it did

1674
01:42:29,920 --> 01:42:35,079
not serve as purposes. Okay, you're limited mining Norwegian territorial wars.

1675
01:42:35,640 --> 01:42:35,840
Speaker 1: You know.

1676
01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:41,560
Speaker 2: He uh when uh when they uh when a German

1677
01:42:41,720 --> 01:42:46,039
U boat was forced to surface by a British battleship

1678
01:42:46,119 --> 01:42:51,520
in the North Sea. Uh the uh the men who

1679
01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:54,880
abandoned ship were over the course of twelve hours were

1680
01:42:54,920 --> 01:42:59,079
retrieved from the water and they were executed and dumped overboard.

1681
01:43:00,159 --> 01:43:02,880
And uh, Churchill declared that this would be odious if

1682
01:43:03,119 --> 01:43:05,199
the appearance it would be odious in appearance of a

1683
01:43:05,239 --> 01:43:08,520
hostile media actor got ahold of the story. But you know,

1684
01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:11,119
mind you he had no problem with these men, you know,

1685
01:43:11,159 --> 01:43:13,800
being summarily executed to see you not even availed to

1686
01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:15,880
a drum end court martial. So this was the kind

1687
01:43:15,880 --> 01:43:17,920
of man he was. Okay, Churchill believed in the Law

1688
01:43:18,199 --> 01:43:20,840
of Churchill. He didn't believe in anything else. And he

1689
01:43:20,840 --> 01:43:25,520
would literally say anything or do anything for money. And Uh,

1690
01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:29,520
he had a certain i'm aroa a term of audacity because

1691
01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:32,840
sometimes they indicates balls or kind of dash and recklessness

1692
01:43:32,880 --> 01:43:35,520
that is charming. There's nothing charming about this. It was.

1693
01:43:35,640 --> 01:43:39,000
It was just a pitiable man who had no principles. Uh,

1694
01:43:39,640 --> 01:43:41,640
literally just saying whatever he had to in the moment

1695
01:43:41,760 --> 01:43:46,479
in order to in order to rationalize what he was

1696
01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:49,720
doing in his own is, in his own naked self interest.

1697
01:43:52,920 --> 01:44:02,359
Churchill issues uh a radio address the first week in October.

1698
01:44:04,840 --> 01:44:07,840
In it, he declares that Poland has an unquenchable spirit.

1699
01:44:07,960 --> 01:44:12,960
It will rise again. Poland is like a rock tightly submerged.

1700
01:44:13,000 --> 01:44:16,279
But you know if if if the great democracy Poland

1701
01:44:16,520 --> 01:44:21,079
is not somehow re established, you know, our peace and

1702
01:44:21,159 --> 01:44:24,600
freedom will be threatened. There's that same verbage again from

1703
01:44:24,640 --> 01:44:29,279
a Frankfurt or mister Roosevelt, like how like a basically

1704
01:44:29,359 --> 01:44:34,439
racialist like military junta like in Central Europe is you know,

1705
01:44:34,479 --> 01:44:37,239
the kind of whole star of you know, Western freedom.

1706
01:44:37,319 --> 01:44:40,239
I have no idea, but apparently according to mister Churchill

1707
01:44:40,279 --> 01:44:44,399
and and the focus this this was the case now

1708
01:44:44,840 --> 01:44:48,800
mind you, and this is the last. Just for context,

1709
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:52,760
once again, you've got to look at the world of

1710
01:44:52,840 --> 01:44:54,960
nine and thirty nine, Okay, I mean it's just as

1711
01:44:55,000 --> 01:44:59,199
obnoxious in twenty twenty two when the European Union goes

1712
01:44:59,239 --> 01:45:02,680
around on moral report cars to people, you know about

1713
01:45:02,760 --> 01:45:06,439
their racism or about not not not treating the developing

1714
01:45:06,479 --> 01:45:10,800
world equably enough. But think about this, okay, and thirty nine.

1715
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:14,960
The British Empire, it was sovereign over just under four

1716
01:45:15,039 --> 01:45:19,159
hundred and fifty million people. Does approximately a quarter the

1717
01:45:19,159 --> 01:45:24,000
population of this planet? Okay, Now, just over four hundred

1718
01:45:24,039 --> 01:45:27,159
million of those people were non whites. Because the region

1719
01:45:27,199 --> 01:45:29,920
number of classed by people in the following prodigm. You're

1720
01:45:29,920 --> 01:45:33,399
either white and European, you're colored, you were a negro,

1721
01:45:33,680 --> 01:45:36,119
or you were a native and like native, and it

1722
01:45:36,399 --> 01:45:38,880
entailed all different kinds of racial groupings. It was kind

1723
01:45:38,880 --> 01:45:41,800
of like not black, like not white, not mixed race,

1724
01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:46,279
you're you're a native. But pretty much none of these

1725
01:45:46,279 --> 01:45:50,680
people had any political rights. Okay, so you're gonna sit

1726
01:45:50,680 --> 01:45:52,199
here and say that, you know, because the number of

1727
01:45:52,279 --> 01:45:54,479
laws and because Germany, which at this point is basically

1728
01:45:54,479 --> 01:45:56,760
at war with a Jewish dias b for better or worse,

1729
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:59,640
I mean that that that's a fact the epitome me

1730
01:45:59,720 --> 01:46:02,760
an because they're not taller of their fellow men. Like, meanwhile,

1731
01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:07,279
you serve a you serve a monarchy that has subjugated

1732
01:46:07,319 --> 01:46:10,119
twenty five percent of this planet, and you've done so

1733
01:46:10,199 --> 01:46:13,079
on grounds that they're not white. Now that doesn't bother

1734
01:46:13,159 --> 01:46:15,560
me any because I don't approach history in those kinds

1735
01:46:15,560 --> 01:46:18,560
of terms. But like, think about mister Churchill, you know,

1736
01:46:19,359 --> 01:46:21,319
declaring these things, and think about like how this is

1737
01:46:21,399 --> 01:46:23,800
received on the continent, you know, I mean, think about

1738
01:46:23,800 --> 01:46:27,640
like the row cynicism of that, and you kind of you

1739
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:31,399
kind of understand why, you kind of understand that the

1740
01:46:31,399 --> 01:46:34,760
Germans came to realize that what what they were contending

1741
01:46:34,840 --> 01:46:40,399
with was a was a a an enemy element that

1742
01:46:40,600 --> 01:46:42,960
was gonna sue for woral costs. Okay, I mean that

1743
01:46:43,560 --> 01:46:47,840
it much like, not entirely and not nearly as intense

1744
01:46:49,079 --> 01:46:51,319
for thank god, but it's somewhat like Russia is dealing

1745
01:46:51,359 --> 01:46:58,479
with today. He's a via nail. Now, interestingly, what adding

1746
01:46:58,479 --> 01:47:05,479
to this, uh kind of a stew of iniquity and hypocrasy.

1747
01:47:10,239 --> 01:47:14,960
On September seventeenth, ninety thirty nine, the Soviet Union invades Poland,

1748
01:47:16,399 --> 01:47:21,760
or had invade in Poland. Okay, Now, this was done

1749
01:47:21,800 --> 01:47:25,319
pursuant to UH the Molotov Ribbons trop Pact, which was

1750
01:47:25,359 --> 01:47:31,560
a secret. It was at the final example of secret diplomacy,

1751
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:34,399
which is un aligned. Uh, I mean properly, I'm not

1752
01:47:34,439 --> 01:47:38,039
I'm not saying it's a good practice in the Eater warriors.

1753
01:47:39,319 --> 01:47:43,920
And nobody knew that Germany and UH that that Berlin

1754
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:47,680
and Moscow. It divided up spears of influence. And not

1755
01:47:47,720 --> 01:47:51,760
only had Stalin demanded UH the eastern half of Poland,

1756
01:47:51,840 --> 01:47:57,039
but he demanded the Germany pursue a hands off pasha

1757
01:47:57,079 --> 01:48:00,560
on the Baltic states. And uh Moscow for seated demand

1758
01:48:00,600 --> 01:48:03,680
at the Baltic States plus Finland UH abide what the

1759
01:48:03,680 --> 01:48:08,000
euphemistically called mutual assistance treaties that meant that they had

1760
01:48:08,039 --> 01:48:10,720
to tolerate a red arready presence in their territorial waters,

1761
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:15,760
you know, across their uh across their borders. They're respected

1762
01:48:15,760 --> 01:48:19,399
to assist in uh ewing hostilities in Poland and anywhere

1763
01:48:19,439 --> 01:48:22,920
else within theater. It was, you know, it was. It was.

1764
01:48:22,960 --> 01:48:24,680
It was a quote of having a gun to one's

1765
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:26,600
head and then being asked to sign on the dotted

1766
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:31,159
line out of your own free will. But uh, you know,

1767
01:48:31,319 --> 01:48:36,479
Joe Kennedy uh there and immediately after Churchill's radio speech,

1768
01:48:36,760 --> 01:48:40,399
he confronts mister Churchill because Kennedy was, uh, you know,

1769
01:48:40,560 --> 01:48:43,840
still ambassador the United Kingdom. He was, he was quite

1770
01:48:43,920 --> 01:48:46,960
friendly with Sir John Simon was chance Chancellor of the

1771
01:48:47,079 --> 01:48:52,159
Exchequer and uh Simon was another kind of not very

1772
01:48:52,239 --> 01:48:57,199
goot dynamic personage. But uh he I believe he was

1773
01:48:57,239 --> 01:49:00,880
a realist, and I believe he was basically patriotic, okay,

1774
01:49:00,960 --> 01:49:03,960
and he realized in some basic sense what was underway,

1775
01:49:04,079 --> 01:49:07,960
as did Halifax. And if you notice anybody who's seen

1776
01:49:08,039 --> 01:49:12,039
the film Darkest Hour, which is ironically titled because yes,

1777
01:49:12,119 --> 01:49:15,359
when when Winnsday Churchill ascended to the premiership, that was

1778
01:49:15,399 --> 01:49:21,079
the darkest hour. But uh so it's it's it's it's

1779
01:49:21,159 --> 01:49:24,119
I thought, I thought it was funny. But and then

1780
01:49:24,119 --> 01:49:26,439
even Halifax is portrayed as the villain in that film.

1781
01:49:26,520 --> 01:49:28,239
I'm not gonna sit here and say Halifax with some

1782
01:49:28,359 --> 01:49:30,720
great man or that he was like, you know, some

1783
01:49:30,800 --> 01:49:33,640
great great friend of the white race or something. But

1784
01:49:33,680 --> 01:49:38,359
he he definitely had album more integrity than then most

1785
01:49:38,399 --> 01:49:42,119
of his peers in as did Simon, and Joe Kennedy

1786
01:49:42,159 --> 01:49:43,720
had a good rapport of both these men, but though

1787
01:49:43,760 --> 01:49:47,239
primarily was Simon. So Kennedy puts it to Simon. He says,

1788
01:49:48,159 --> 01:49:50,279
you know, this isn't the wake of the the Soviet

1789
01:49:50,279 --> 01:49:53,000
assault on Poland. You know what exactly are you're fighting for?

1790
01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:57,319
You can't restore Poland to the polls, and why would

1791
01:49:57,319 --> 01:49:59,640
you want to do that anyway? And Simon has kind

1792
01:49:59,640 --> 01:50:04,399
of agreed, lamely saying no, no, we couldn't. To Kennedy's like, okay, well,

1793
01:50:05,479 --> 01:50:09,880
how are we discussing aggression while fantastically endorsing Russia's conquest

1794
01:50:09,920 --> 01:50:12,760
of Poland as well as allowing it to insinuate it's

1795
01:50:13,119 --> 01:50:18,279
it's it's dirty Bolshevik clause into the Baltics. And uh,

1796
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:24,640
Simon did no answer to that. He said that he

1797
01:50:24,720 --> 01:50:28,680
said that he in Halifax, you know, stood by their

1798
01:50:28,720 --> 01:50:33,560
government and they hope for speedy resolution. And that to

1799
01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:37,319
me is the indicative. Assuming Kennedy was adamant, this other

1800
01:50:37,359 --> 01:50:40,359
conversation developed. And I don't see why he would have

1801
01:50:40,399 --> 01:50:43,000
lied about this after the war, because there's only related

1802
01:50:43,039 --> 01:50:45,239
this and that wouldn't exactly make him look good in

1803
01:50:45,279 --> 01:50:52,199
the court of public opinion. But he stated that if

1804
01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:55,039
if you fight this war, if you see it through,

1805
01:50:55,119 --> 01:50:59,199
if you wage a total war on the continent against Germany,

1806
01:51:00,199 --> 01:51:03,880
you will destroy your country and you will become a

1807
01:51:03,920 --> 01:51:07,039
shadow of your former self. If you even you know,

1808
01:51:08,000 --> 01:51:12,680
even if you even retain the sovereign dominion over over

1809
01:51:12,720 --> 01:51:16,800
your over the home territories, owing to the idea that

1810
01:51:17,600 --> 01:51:20,039
you know, Kennedy said on certain terms of Roosevelt, if

1811
01:51:20,079 --> 01:51:24,359
Adolf Hitler goes, Germany will become a garrison communist state,

1812
01:51:25,319 --> 01:51:29,960
and uh after that, sovil France. And uh, if you

1813
01:51:29,960 --> 01:51:32,600
think the UK is just going to somehow you know,

1814
01:51:32,680 --> 01:51:36,199
be able to to to retain some sort of sovereign independence.

1815
01:51:36,199 --> 01:51:42,439
Amiss uh, amiss uh. This Bolshevik super state that extends

1816
01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:46,119
from Lady less Stock to the Atlantic Ocean. You're you're

1817
01:51:46,119 --> 01:51:58,680
deluding yourself. The Halifax said he shared this view. Kennedy

1818
01:51:58,760 --> 01:52:06,640
returned to Washington. He uh wrote a telegram the Fdr

1819
01:52:06,960 --> 01:52:12,600
Emilia Pound return saying it's imperative that as the President

1820
01:52:12,600 --> 01:52:14,960
of the United States, he assisted Britain in any way

1821
01:52:15,039 --> 01:52:17,319
possible to end the war of else he still could.

1822
01:52:17,720 --> 01:52:19,399
I mean that shows you how out of the loop

1823
01:52:19,479 --> 01:52:21,880
Kennedy was. And I'm not saying that about shade on him,

1824
01:52:21,920 --> 01:52:28,039
but it shows you how he he uh, he just

1825
01:52:28,359 --> 01:52:32,079
really shut out. It's not just that he wasn't a

1826
01:52:32,119 --> 01:52:34,119
fellow traveler with a New Dealers, and he'd been, for

1827
01:52:34,159 --> 01:52:40,760
all practical purposes banished from uh the Beltway where he

1828
01:52:40,800 --> 01:52:45,319
could conspire against you know, Roosevelt, who is fast becoming

1829
01:52:45,319 --> 01:52:49,439
his political nemesis, you know, and our worst nemeses are

1830
01:52:49,439 --> 01:52:56,479
our former friends, if at least in political life. But uh,

1831
01:52:57,079 --> 01:53:00,920
he was in London, and he was in you know,

1832
01:53:01,159 --> 01:53:03,279
moved in the same circles as Churchill. The fact that

1833
01:53:04,560 --> 01:53:07,319
the fact that, uh, I mean it shows you how

1834
01:53:08,000 --> 01:53:12,359
unthinkable it was that the New Dealers were literally planning

1835
01:53:12,359 --> 01:53:16,720
from inception to wage a war of annihilation against Europe.

1836
01:53:17,439 --> 01:53:20,800
That even Kennedy, who did not really have illusions about

1837
01:53:20,920 --> 01:53:23,560
the Man of Roosevelt or is in our circle like,

1838
01:53:23,720 --> 01:53:27,920
couldn't even fathom this. I mean, Kenny was basically a gangster.

1839
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:31,880
Okay he is now he was some feet rich guy

1840
01:53:32,079 --> 01:53:35,000
or you know some watching an insire. You're a self

1841
01:53:35,039 --> 01:53:38,000
made man, and the way he made his fortune was

1842
01:53:38,000 --> 01:53:43,199
not any way nice. But I want to conclude here

1843
01:53:43,279 --> 01:53:48,119
soon because I uh, I want us to be able

1844
01:53:48,159 --> 01:53:51,720
to kind of leap frog into the war years and

1845
01:53:51,800 --> 01:53:57,359
leave mister Churchill as a dedicated topic behind. But I

1846
01:53:57,399 --> 01:54:00,520
do want to pull up something that I think is

1847
01:54:00,520 --> 01:54:04,880
fascinating and I think the listeners will appreciate it. Okay,

1848
01:54:05,000 --> 01:54:10,359
Churchill's October broadcast that we referenced, and you know how

1849
01:54:10,359 --> 01:54:13,279
I talked about a moment ago we talked about I

1850
01:54:13,279 --> 01:54:19,079
don't believe Churchill's copy really originated with mister Churchill. Okay,

1851
01:54:20,039 --> 01:54:23,279
listen to what Churchill said. This is word for word. No,

1852
01:54:24,920 --> 01:54:27,920
he stated, of all the wars that men have fought

1853
01:54:27,960 --> 01:54:30,640
in their heart pilgrimage. None was more noble than the

1854
01:54:30,640 --> 01:54:34,279
Great Civil War in America nearly eighty years ago. All

1855
01:54:34,279 --> 01:54:36,680
the heroism of the South could not redeem their cause

1856
01:54:36,720 --> 01:54:39,520
from the stain of slavery, just as all the courage

1857
01:54:39,520 --> 01:54:41,680
and skill with the Germans always showing a war will

1858
01:54:41,720 --> 01:54:44,239
not free them from the approach of Nazism with its

1859
01:54:44,239 --> 01:54:46,520
intolerance and brutality.

1860
01:54:46,640 --> 01:54:50,800
Speaker 1: Now, why the hell was a something out there?

1861
01:54:51,119 --> 01:54:53,840
Speaker 2: Well, why the hell is the British Anniralty Lord in

1862
01:54:53,920 --> 01:54:57,159
nineteen thirty nine talking about the Confederacy and how bad

1863
01:54:57,199 --> 01:54:59,600
it is. I'll tell you who's.

1864
01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:02,159
Speaker 1: Very thanks guys, because it's answered. It's already entered the

1865
01:55:02,239 --> 01:55:03,600
zeitgeist of the.

1866
01:55:05,199 --> 01:55:08,279
Speaker 2: Of the focuses. But not but not of like some

1867
01:55:08,439 --> 01:55:11,079
lamey you know in in London in nineteen thirty nine,

1868
01:55:11,479 --> 01:55:12,920
I mean that the Civil War to hit what's this?

1869
01:55:12,920 --> 01:55:15,520
What's the American Civil War? What's the South? And this

1870
01:55:15,600 --> 01:55:20,279
didn't this did not go over well and and and

1871
01:55:20,279 --> 01:55:22,199
in in London people didn't know what he was talgging.

1872
01:55:22,239 --> 01:55:24,439
They didn't get the reference. A lot of them, okay,

1873
01:55:24,720 --> 01:55:26,880
And in America people starts out of the field. But

1874
01:55:28,800 --> 01:55:32,680
the uh, the anti Defamation League had literally been founded

1875
01:55:34,279 --> 01:55:38,760
in the aftermath of Leo Frank being lynched, and they're

1876
01:55:40,840 --> 01:55:43,760
they viewed the South, you know, the reactionary you know,

1877
01:55:44,039 --> 01:55:48,560
anti Semitic South as as their moral enemy. And this

1878
01:55:48,920 --> 01:55:51,199
I hear, there's no way that church will conjured up

1879
01:55:51,199 --> 01:55:53,760
this boogeyman of the Confederacy of the United States. Like

1880
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:55,680
why why would Churchill even be why would that be

1881
01:55:55,720 --> 01:56:00,439
with with his his contemplation but proventual is and the

1882
01:56:00,520 --> 01:56:03,640
kind of direct control of the focus over him and

1883
01:56:03,680 --> 01:56:07,760
over everything he said. You know, uh, this this was

1884
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:09,880
not twenty twenty two. I mean even today, I think

1885
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:12,359
that would be strange if Borisa Johnson made some reference

1886
01:56:12,479 --> 01:56:16,079
like that. But in nineteen thirty nine, it was. It

1887
01:56:16,119 --> 01:56:21,640
was just bizarre and it uh, I've listened to part

1888
01:56:21,640 --> 01:56:24,079
of the speech. It sounds like weird and stilted. Like

1889
01:56:24,199 --> 01:56:27,279
Churchill he usually sounds almost conversational. His language is this

1890
01:56:27,359 --> 01:56:30,760
kind of fault soaring language. But it's not stilted, you

1891
01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:33,560
know that. It's a really weird speech. This whole this

1892
01:56:33,600 --> 01:56:39,880
whole speeches, you know. But it but that was uh,

1893
01:56:40,680 --> 01:56:45,000
you know, this was this was the twilight of Churchill's

1894
01:56:45,000 --> 01:56:48,039
Wilderness years. Though, because like we we mentioned a minute ago,

1895
01:56:49,359 --> 01:56:52,720
poor Chamberlain, Uh you know what, not even a year

1896
01:56:52,800 --> 01:56:55,439
later or right about a year later he dropped out

1897
01:56:55,439 --> 01:57:01,319
of cancer. Uh. You know, the UK was was you know,

1898
01:57:01,399 --> 01:57:04,960
and I mean the ward the sis creed had uh

1899
01:57:05,279 --> 01:57:07,760
had been underway, but I mean real hostilities were were

1900
01:57:07,840 --> 01:57:12,079
unfolding in earst that the situation was collapsing. It looked

1901
01:57:12,079 --> 01:57:14,359
at that point to outsiders, even though they said nothing,

1902
01:57:14,800 --> 01:57:18,359
even though the internal situation between Moscow and Berlin was

1903
01:57:18,359 --> 01:57:23,960
reaching critical mass. Outside of that Milleu, people thought that

1904
01:57:24,000 --> 01:57:29,439
there's a genuine concror between Moscow and Berlin. Uh, the

1905
01:57:29,520 --> 01:57:32,720
UK was actually losing the war. Uh. Churchill really got

1906
01:57:32,760 --> 01:57:37,640
the nod replaced Chamberlain because there was nobody else and

1907
01:57:37,720 --> 01:57:39,840
he was probably the only man, you know, the voters

1908
01:57:39,840 --> 01:57:42,720
really would have accepted without there you know, being a

1909
01:57:42,880 --> 01:57:45,079
without there you know there with without without there being

1910
01:57:45,119 --> 01:57:48,319
a you know, some kind of internal crisis, confidence crisis

1911
01:57:48,359 --> 01:57:53,199
in parliament so per Extorman conditions, you know, namely was

1912
01:57:53,279 --> 01:57:57,800
because Bus two at uh labor uh labor, you know,

1913
01:57:58,079 --> 01:58:00,359
the Tories and and then Liberals ready to their's throats

1914
01:58:00,359 --> 01:58:02,520
and believe in the Tories I don't believe that they

1915
01:58:02,520 --> 01:58:06,199
would wanted anything to do with Churchill because they a

1916
01:58:06,199 --> 01:58:08,079
lot highly of them. It was again, he was the

1917
01:58:08,079 --> 01:58:11,800
only man who who could, who could UH would fill

1918
01:58:11,840 --> 01:58:15,279
the role. And I mean again that owes to this

1919
01:58:15,359 --> 01:58:20,039
unpressed and the kind of full court press media campaign

1920
01:58:20,920 --> 01:58:23,600
that UH sort of insinuated him as the as the

1921
01:58:25,560 --> 01:58:27,279
as the the man of the hour, even though he

1922
01:58:27,319 --> 01:58:30,600
hadn't done anything but issue a lot of moral moral

1923
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:34,399
can't and and strange radio addresses referring to the anti

1924
01:58:34,399 --> 01:58:37,720
Semitism of the American South, and you know, heling around

1925
01:58:37,760 --> 01:58:41,720
with with UH with Jewish UH movie moguls and the

1926
01:58:41,760 --> 01:58:47,720
Mediterranean like. But again, perception is reality, and eventually perception

1927
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:53,640
becomes reality. I know, uh, I know this episode was

1928
01:58:54,079 --> 01:58:58,159
a little less heavy than some, but I again, I

1929
01:58:58,159 --> 01:59:03,319
I think it was. Uh. I Churchill's career is essential

1930
01:59:03,520 --> 01:59:07,439
understanding the revisionist argument, and uh I I don't think

1931
01:59:07,439 --> 01:59:09,239
I could have done in less than three episodes. And

1932
01:59:09,279 --> 01:59:12,479
I I didn't want to just dramatically, kind of jarringly

1933
01:59:12,640 --> 01:59:16,119
change focus and get into the war in the same episode.

1934
01:59:16,159 --> 01:59:20,279
But I promise we'll get into the nitty gritty when

1935
01:59:20,319 --> 01:59:22,960
we record again. This week of uh, you know, World

1936
01:59:23,039 --> 01:59:27,239
War two and UH, how how it developed and and

1937
01:59:27,279 --> 01:59:30,720
specifically we'll start off next session with h with Operation

1938
01:59:30,800 --> 01:59:34,960
Barbarossa and the the the war between the National Socialists

1939
01:59:34,960 --> 01:59:37,560
and and and UH and the communists. And I know

1940
01:59:37,600 --> 01:59:41,359
that that's something that turns everybody on, including myself.

1941
01:59:45,840 --> 01:59:48,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds great. Since we got a couple of minutes,

1942
01:59:48,079 --> 01:59:51,239
I got a question. Okay, So you've brought it up

1943
01:59:51,319 --> 01:59:53,479
at a bunch of times. Paul and I talked about

1944
01:59:53,520 --> 01:59:55,760
it a little bit yesterday when we were talking I

1945
01:59:55,760 --> 02:00:01,359
think privately the the Nuremberg regime. Yeah, sir, how did

1946
02:00:02,319 --> 02:00:06,319
how did HUAC happen during the Nuremberg regime?

1947
02:00:07,800 --> 02:00:08,880
Speaker 2: What do you mean specifically?

1948
02:00:09,479 --> 02:00:11,319
Speaker 1: Well, I mean it seems like it would go counter

1949
02:00:11,600 --> 02:00:13,720
like that that kind of thing would be shut down,

1950
02:00:14,279 --> 02:00:18,199
you know, searching for communists in the you know, in Hollywood,

1951
02:00:18,239 --> 02:00:21,920
in society, in the government. Okay, okay, yeah.

1952
02:00:21,720 --> 02:00:26,640
Speaker 2: Like I understand. Wait to understand these two things. Okay,

1953
02:00:28,960 --> 02:00:35,600
The many aspects of the new Deal, UH were permanent Okay,

1954
02:00:35,680 --> 02:00:37,119
I mean, owing to a few things only to the

1955
02:00:37,119 --> 02:00:40,359
fact that that's just what you know, remain the priority

1956
02:00:40,399 --> 02:00:45,199
of the federal system. But a lot of things, particularly

1957
02:00:45,239 --> 02:00:49,520
the Concorde in Moscow that completely fell apart in ninety nine. Okay,

1958
02:00:51,680 --> 02:00:55,439
the Cold War was not supposed to happen, and uh

1959
02:00:56,239 --> 02:00:59,800
Truman number one hated the Russians even if you hadn't.

1960
02:01:00,680 --> 02:01:02,359
Stalin was not gonna take a knee and be the

1961
02:01:02,479 --> 02:01:05,960
junior partner in this kind of in literally this world

1962
02:01:06,000 --> 02:01:10,199
regime of uh you know, the United States, you know,

1963
02:01:10,239 --> 02:01:12,920
in Moscow, with Moscow is the junior partner, like I

1964
02:01:13,000 --> 02:01:15,239
just said, you know, kind of managing the planet. And

1965
02:01:15,279 --> 02:01:17,239
with the United States it is him in a monopoly

1966
02:01:17,319 --> 02:01:20,720
on nuclear weapons and and uh you know with Okay,

1967
02:01:20,760 --> 02:01:22,720
you know, the the Soviet Union has a they got

1968
02:01:22,720 --> 02:01:25,039
a permanency in the Security Council. But you know, they

1969
02:01:25,039 --> 02:01:26,800
can they can always be they can always be over

1970
02:01:26,880 --> 02:01:29,000
they can always be vetoed the jury in de facto

1971
02:01:29,119 --> 02:01:33,279
by you know, the United States, UK, France. They weren't

1972
02:01:33,319 --> 02:01:42,479
gonna tolerate that. And uh Stalin, uh Stalin as a

1973
02:01:42,479 --> 02:01:45,359
as you and Paul got into, I'm gonna and and

1974
02:01:45,920 --> 02:01:48,039
I started listen to your and Paul show, but I

1975
02:01:48,079 --> 02:01:52,239
he I've got a sense that we probably talked about

1976
02:01:52,359 --> 02:01:54,359
you know, Yaqui was onto something when you talk about

1977
02:01:54,359 --> 02:01:58,720
the Prague Trials, okay, I he was misconstrue that Yaqui

1978
02:01:58,840 --> 02:02:01,399
wasn't saying and this and in that you know, oh,

1979
02:02:01,479 --> 02:02:04,479
you know, the the Eastern bloc is this great thing

1980
02:02:04,520 --> 02:02:07,199
and they're becoming fascist. What he was saying is that,

1981
02:02:08,000 --> 02:02:11,840
you know, the the kind of primitives, not not primitive

1982
02:02:11,840 --> 02:02:15,279
and punitive terms, primitives, just speaking in the developmental terms.

1983
02:02:15,600 --> 02:02:18,920
You know, this primitive kind of peasant population of Slavs.

1984
02:02:20,720 --> 02:02:24,960
They had a common hatred of, uh, this cogmopolitan Roman

1985
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:29,640
eetype regime that like the Jewish merchant class did they

1986
02:02:29,640 --> 02:02:33,880
collaborated to kill it. Okay, But once that threat was gone,

1987
02:02:34,319 --> 02:02:36,960
and then once like the Vermont was no longer, you know,

1988
02:02:37,079 --> 02:02:40,359
literally kicking in the door and slaughtering them, Like what what,

1989
02:02:40,920 --> 02:02:43,239
what reason do they have to collaborate? They were totally

1990
02:02:43,279 --> 02:02:48,479
at odds. And obviously, you know, the the Jewish element,

1991
02:02:48,640 --> 02:02:52,880
which was not better in moral terms or in terms

1992
02:02:52,880 --> 02:02:57,800
of attitude, but was better situated in practical and power

1993
02:02:57,840 --> 02:03:02,359
political terms to rule the Soviet Union. The majority wasn't

1994
02:03:02,359 --> 02:03:09,520
going to tolerate that anymore. And these these these Jewish, uh,

1995
02:03:09,560 --> 02:03:13,119
these Eastern Jewish people like saw the writing on the wall. Okay,

1996
02:03:13,239 --> 02:03:16,680
so they threw their lotting with the United States, and

1997
02:03:17,159 --> 02:03:19,800
that's one way to understand it. But just in pure

1998
02:03:19,840 --> 02:03:27,840
power political terms, you know, the uh, the uh, despite

1999
02:03:27,880 --> 02:03:31,520
the Marshall Plan, despite the kind of anti colonial overtures

2000
02:03:31,560 --> 02:03:33,960
of Eisenhower, which I think in this case for genuine

2001
02:03:33,960 --> 02:03:36,359
in a lot of ways. You know what what was

2002
02:03:36,399 --> 02:03:39,159
called the colored world in less sensitive times, they they

2003
02:03:39,199 --> 02:03:41,800
weren't really with the program. They they went to the

2004
02:03:41,840 --> 02:03:47,000
Moscow poll. You know, so it's uh, so you got America,

2005
02:03:47,079 --> 02:03:49,479
you got this Nuremberg world system, and it created it.

2006
02:03:49,680 --> 02:03:51,560
You know, this is fanning too, because like there's a

2007
02:03:51,560 --> 02:03:53,800
great boxhy a yach and Piper. You know, he was

2008
02:03:53,840 --> 02:03:56,039
under a death sentence and some and a half and

2009
02:03:56,079 --> 02:03:58,199
in nineteen and fifty six, first as death sence gets

2010
02:03:58,359 --> 02:04:01,439
commuted and then he sudden he just gets like he

2011
02:04:01,760 --> 02:04:04,520
suddenly gets clemency, and they cut loose Piper. They cut

2012
02:04:04,520 --> 02:04:08,520
loose all these dudes who had heavy who commanded troops

2013
02:04:08,520 --> 02:04:11,159
and heavy action against the Red Army. Like suddenly they're

2014
02:04:11,159 --> 02:04:15,319
getting cut loose. And suddenly you're seeing movies in Hollywood

2015
02:04:15,359 --> 02:04:17,800
about you know, Irwin Romwell, the Great Desert Fox and

2016
02:04:18,159 --> 02:04:19,880
he fought those dirty Reds, but he was he was

2017
02:04:19,920 --> 02:04:22,319
a good German, not one of those dirty Nazis. You know,

2018
02:04:22,359 --> 02:04:25,000
if you're gonna if it looks like you're gonna have

2019
02:04:25,039 --> 02:04:27,439
to fight a total war that's gonna go nuclear at

2020
02:04:27,439 --> 02:04:31,039
some point with Ivan, and you're gonna need the Germans

2021
02:04:31,039 --> 02:04:33,479
to fight on literally the front line of the inner

2022
02:04:33,479 --> 02:04:36,239
German border, like you're gonna have to scale back a

2023
02:04:36,239 --> 02:04:39,359
lot of your Nuremberg bullshit at least for a time.

2024
02:04:39,439 --> 02:04:42,560
And that's what happened, you know, this kind of this

2025
02:04:42,680 --> 02:04:44,079
kind of give and take in door it until the

2026
02:04:44,119 --> 02:04:47,199
Reagan administration. Man, I mean, you know, because you're you're, you're,

2027
02:04:47,239 --> 02:04:48,760
you're a little older than me. It's you're, I mean,

2028
02:04:49,039 --> 02:04:52,840
the big Berg moment, reaganhead, Okay, there's nine to eighty four. Man,

2029
02:04:52,960 --> 02:04:55,199
Reagan only go to Bigburg Cemetery because he wanted to,

2030
02:04:55,239 --> 02:04:58,479
like stir ship or because you really really want to

2031
02:04:58,479 --> 02:05:03,000
do He's like, Okay, well, I expect these guys like

2032
02:05:03,039 --> 02:05:07,000
basically absorbed the first probably nuclear blow from Warsaw packed.

2033
02:05:07,000 --> 02:05:10,039
I better not going up shitting underwarded. You know, I'd

2034
02:05:10,039 --> 02:05:12,399
better say some nice things about him. Sometimes you know,

2035
02:05:12,439 --> 02:05:14,119
at least better not come off with some you know,

2036
02:05:14,239 --> 02:05:16,119
dogmantic anti fascist dude.

2037
02:05:16,159 --> 02:05:19,039
Speaker 1: That was the reaction to that was insane.

2038
02:05:19,439 --> 02:05:20,439
Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah.

2039
02:05:20,800 --> 02:05:22,479
Speaker 1: The Ramones wrote a song about it.

2040
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:25,520
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, We'll go to pick Burg or whatever.

2041
02:05:25,720 --> 02:05:28,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's like, I mean, that was I remember.

2042
02:05:28,960 --> 02:05:31,000
That was probably one of the first things I remember

2043
02:05:31,039 --> 02:05:35,199
as a kid of being like, wow, people really do

2044
02:05:35,319 --> 02:05:36,880
not I mean, well, of course they tried to kill

2045
02:05:36,920 --> 02:05:39,840
him three years earlier, but people really do not. But

2046
02:05:39,840 --> 02:05:41,840
people really do not like this guy.

2047
02:05:42,479 --> 02:05:45,079
Speaker 2: No, my dad really really lived. You know, my dad

2048
02:05:45,119 --> 02:05:47,479
really like Reagan. And my dad my dad doesn't like

2049
02:05:47,479 --> 02:05:49,640
Germany and nearly as much as I do. But you know,

2050
02:05:49,680 --> 02:05:51,840
my dad is Man, you know, because my dad's a

2051
02:05:51,880 --> 02:05:54,079
military vet and also he was you know, he was

2052
02:05:54,079 --> 02:05:56,960
a he was a big Cold warrior and he uh no,

2053
02:05:57,279 --> 02:05:59,000
I mean, I mean he was in the he was

2054
02:05:59,000 --> 02:06:03,119
a military acco missed. He and a nuclear game theorist.

2055
02:06:03,119 --> 02:06:06,000
He actually waved the Cold War, albeit from a desk.

2056
02:06:06,079 --> 02:06:08,199
But he he got mad when people tried to put

2057
02:06:08,239 --> 02:06:10,600
shade on the German army and stuff. You know, he's like,

2058
02:06:12,319 --> 02:06:14,199
even even though he's a lot more kind of conventional

2059
02:06:14,199 --> 02:06:20,319
in his views. But yeah, that's why it uh bust

2060
02:06:20,359 --> 02:06:23,039
someone who was a strange you know, why did the

2061
02:06:23,039 --> 02:06:25,479
the uh you know, Roy Cohnes. There is a reason

2062
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:28,000
why Roy Cohne got to pick the prosecute the Rosenbergercause

2063
02:06:28,039 --> 02:06:30,399
Roy Cohne wasn't just he wasn't just this kind of

2064
02:06:30,439 --> 02:06:33,199
hot shot like young Jewish lawyer like con was like

2065
02:06:33,239 --> 02:06:35,239
this in your face kind of Jewish guy. Like I'm

2066
02:06:35,279 --> 02:06:38,039
not saying that to be crass. He was, you know,

2067
02:06:38,359 --> 02:06:40,680
but I mean it. So it's like, then we're gonna

2068
02:06:40,720 --> 02:06:43,920
have some Irish Catholic guy like McCarthy or like Bobby Kennedy,

2069
02:06:44,119 --> 02:06:46,279
you know, sending the Jewish people the electric cheer you

2070
02:06:46,399 --> 02:06:49,039
They're gonna have wise ass like obviously ethnic Roy Cone

2071
02:06:49,079 --> 02:06:51,239
to it. It was a delicate minuet, you know what

2072
02:06:51,279 --> 02:06:55,800
I mean. That's why Yaqui very early on he wrote

2073
02:06:55,800 --> 02:06:58,880
a few speeches for McCarthy. Now, Yaqui had no truckle

2074
02:06:58,960 --> 02:07:01,960
like Bircher's or like a curzy perspective. But the idea

2075
02:07:02,159 --> 02:07:05,159
was like, well, you know, if this is gonna draw

2076
02:07:05,600 --> 02:07:07,640
if this is gonna raise name in consuness among these

2077
02:07:07,680 --> 02:07:12,279
you know, white ethnic Catholic types about you know, the truth,

2078
02:07:12,880 --> 02:07:16,439
like the true face of you know, subversion. And it's

2079
02:07:16,479 --> 02:07:19,159
not that Moscow was, you know, the the loci of

2080
02:07:19,239 --> 02:07:22,479
all evil like some kind of sort of satanic for

2081
02:07:22,720 --> 02:07:26,479
some incarnate. It's in fact, in a large part, not exclusively,

2082
02:07:26,600 --> 02:07:29,520
but in a large part, you know, the the impulse

2083
02:07:29,560 --> 02:07:33,920
of this kind of hostilethno sectarian, the aspra. I mean, yeah,

2084
02:07:33,960 --> 02:07:36,720
it's a complicated issue, but that that's the short answer.

2085
02:07:36,720 --> 02:07:37,960
I mean, we're gonna do all the show about that

2086
02:07:38,000 --> 02:07:41,199
if you want to. Sure, but yeah, and uh that's

2087
02:07:41,199 --> 02:07:44,960
the short answer. And I gotta, I just uh yeah,

2088
02:07:45,000 --> 02:07:46,760
I just thought of Paul over text. I gotta. I'm

2089
02:07:46,760 --> 02:07:48,560
gonna listen to your guys show it tonight and I'll

2090
02:07:48,600 --> 02:07:52,119
give you I'll give you full feedback. Paul is. Paul

2091
02:07:52,239 --> 02:07:53,840
is great. He's a great friend of mine, and he's

2092
02:07:53,880 --> 02:07:55,000
a really brilliant kid.

2093
02:07:55,439 --> 02:07:57,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, do your plugs and well then.

2094
02:07:58,680 --> 02:08:03,760
Speaker 2: Okay, uh you can find me if uh, for someone

2095
02:08:03,760 --> 02:08:07,119
godly reason you want to No, I about half my

2096
02:08:07,159 --> 02:08:09,520
content is free on my substack. That was not free.

2097
02:08:09,520 --> 02:08:11,960
It's only five bucks a month. And even Hobo's gonna

2098
02:08:11,960 --> 02:08:14,000
afford that. And I know if they've been a hobo,

2099
02:08:15,319 --> 02:08:20,319
it's real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com.

2100
02:08:20,439 --> 02:08:22,319
You can find me on t gram and the t

2101
02:08:22,479 --> 02:08:25,319
gram mob has been growing exponentially and that is dope.

2102
02:08:25,520 --> 02:08:27,600
Speaker 1: It's uh, I'll share then to it.

2103
02:08:27,680 --> 02:08:31,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a t dot E slash

2104
02:08:31,640 --> 02:08:35,840
the number seven h O M A S seven seven seven.

2105
02:08:37,720 --> 02:08:41,359
I got a couple of weeks, uh, actually more like

2106
02:08:41,359 --> 02:08:44,199
four weeks, like my next steel Storm novel will be dropping.

2107
02:08:44,560 --> 02:08:47,600
Do imperiod press. Check them out. They're great, not just

2108
02:08:47,600 --> 02:08:50,239
because they publish my stuff, but all their titles are great.

2109
02:08:50,279 --> 02:08:54,239
They got incredibly talented authors on staff, and they're friends

2110
02:08:54,239 --> 02:08:56,560
of ours. To please support them and not Amazon or

2111
02:08:56,600 --> 02:08:59,920
some outlit like that. And yeah, I want to think it.

2112
02:09:00,079 --> 02:09:04,000
Butody sincerely for being so kind in their compliments. I

2113
02:09:04,039 --> 02:09:06,760
really mean that. I'm very very honored and humbled by it.

2114
02:09:06,800 --> 02:09:07,960
And thank you very much, Pete.

2115
02:09:08,680 --> 02:09:11,239
Speaker 1: No problem, and next time we'll get into the hostilities.

2116
02:09:11,840 --> 02:09:14,279
I want to welcome everyone back to the Peak show.

2117
02:09:15,359 --> 02:09:16,199
Thomas is back.

2118
02:09:16,359 --> 02:09:20,359
Speaker 2: How you doing, Thomas, I'm very well, Pete. Thanks and again,

2119
02:09:20,479 --> 02:09:24,319
as always, I'm sure people are getting tired of repeating myself,

2120
02:09:24,359 --> 02:09:28,880
but I really appreciate the positive comments and support for

2121
02:09:28,960 --> 02:09:33,039
this ongoing series. It's really great. And I mean that's

2122
02:09:33,039 --> 02:09:35,119
the whole point. You know, I know what my own

2123
02:09:35,159 --> 02:09:38,520
ideas are and things, and I mean I like having

2124
02:09:38,600 --> 02:09:41,560
conversations with you, Pete, and I'm always gained for that.

2125
02:09:41,680 --> 02:09:45,399
But the reason we record these conversations is a benefit

2126
02:09:45,479 --> 02:09:48,720
of people who might not be familiar with, you know,

2127
02:09:48,760 --> 02:09:52,880
the body of a scholarship that we're talking about today.

2128
02:09:52,920 --> 02:09:56,439
I wanted to deep dive into Operation Barbarossa, which probably

2129
02:09:56,520 --> 02:10:01,039
most people know, though something not. That was the code

2130
02:10:01,079 --> 02:10:04,800
name for the for the German assault on the Soviet Union,

2131
02:10:05,239 --> 02:10:07,439
you know, on June twenty second, ninety forty one, and

2132
02:10:08,439 --> 02:10:11,039
there's an absolute cataclysmic event, you know, a clash of

2133
02:10:11,039 --> 02:10:13,720
literally millions of men on both sides across you know,

2134
02:10:14,399 --> 02:10:19,520
one thousand mile front. You know, utterly catastrophic losses, the

2135
02:10:20,039 --> 02:10:22,960
kind of a kind of clash of arms and men that,

2136
02:10:24,159 --> 02:10:28,239
without exaggeration, has never been seen before and probably will

2137
02:10:28,279 --> 02:10:30,800
never be seen again, and at least not for a

2138
02:10:30,880 --> 02:10:33,079
thousand years. This has been on my mind a lot,

2139
02:10:34,239 --> 02:10:36,520
you know, Like I just like we were talking about

2140
02:10:36,560 --> 02:10:40,319
right before we began recording. I'm certainly not a military historian.

2141
02:10:40,399 --> 02:10:44,840
But you know, it's a military dimension to revisionism because

2142
02:10:44,880 --> 02:10:47,680
it it's you know, it's a huge amount of it

2143
02:10:47,720 --> 02:10:53,119
is pouring through conflict literature and dealing with them, you know,

2144
02:10:53,199 --> 02:10:55,800
dealing with the the entirety of the political horizon. And

2145
02:10:55,840 --> 02:10:59,720
there's obviously there's there's there's a major military dimension to that.

2146
02:10:59,760 --> 02:11:04,039
But as these this this unfortunate Ukraine war that did

2147
02:11:04,079 --> 02:11:06,720
not have to happen, that is underweight. Now you know,

2148
02:11:06,760 --> 02:11:11,079
these place names and these battle spaces, these these were

2149
02:11:11,079 --> 02:11:13,960
the same settings of hostilities you know, during Barbarossa, and

2150
02:11:13,960 --> 02:11:16,079
that that's kind of fascinating to me. I'm not at ghoul,

2151
02:11:16,159 --> 02:11:18,279
I'm not you know, saying, oh this is exciting. I'm

2152
02:11:18,319 --> 02:11:23,399
happy to you know, act some kind of remote spectator

2153
02:11:23,439 --> 02:11:26,840
of of of hostilities. But it is fascinating how you know,

2154
02:11:26,880 --> 02:11:29,119
these places that have been quiet for you know, three

2155
02:11:29,199 --> 02:11:32,239
quarters of a century or once again a flame with

2156
02:11:32,359 --> 02:11:37,720
the by the dogs of war. But yeah, I want

2157
02:11:37,720 --> 02:11:40,560
to deep dive into that today. But first I think

2158
02:11:40,560 --> 02:11:43,439
there's such a huge topic and I don't think we're

2159
02:11:43,439 --> 02:11:45,359
gonna need to dedicate quite as much time to it

2160
02:11:45,399 --> 02:11:49,039
as we did the career of mister Churchill. But we

2161
02:11:49,159 --> 02:11:53,359
need to dive deep into the theoretical foundations of the

2162
02:11:53,399 --> 02:11:57,760
ideologies that created this clash. You've got to look at

2163
02:11:57,760 --> 02:12:00,279
the cent in World War. I mean, depending on where

2164
02:12:00,279 --> 02:12:03,560
you're located in terms of your nationality, you're going to

2165
02:12:03,600 --> 02:12:06,279
approach the Second World War differently, Like not just in

2166
02:12:06,359 --> 02:12:09,319
terms of the narrative, but what you emphasize. Like if

2167
02:12:09,359 --> 02:12:11,560
you're to talk to a Russian person, you know, he

2168
02:12:11,720 --> 02:12:14,680
or she'd tell you about the Great Patriotic War and

2169
02:12:14,720 --> 02:12:17,920
to them it didn't really ensue until June forty one,

2170
02:12:18,000 --> 02:12:19,920
you know, because that was the war. You know, he

2171
02:12:20,000 --> 02:12:22,880
talked some Englishmen and you know he's if he's kind

2172
02:12:22,880 --> 02:12:27,560
of accepted the narrative of court history and you know,

2173
02:12:27,600 --> 02:12:30,800
as presented from the bully pulpit, but probably drop some

2174
02:12:30,880 --> 02:12:33,159
kind of hero narrative of mister Kirschel on you where

2175
02:12:33,159 --> 02:12:35,880
we'll talk about Dunkirk or something like that. You know,

2176
02:12:35,920 --> 02:12:41,359
Americans generally people. You know, I got introduced to the

2177
02:12:41,399 --> 02:12:43,600
Second World War as a little little kid because my

2178
02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:47,479
mom's brother, he was he was twenty two years older

2179
02:12:47,479 --> 02:12:51,560
than her, because he was her half brother, and her

2180
02:12:51,640 --> 02:12:55,520
father was something of a ladies man and he you

2181
02:12:55,560 --> 02:12:57,079
know when he when he sired my mom, he was

2182
02:12:57,119 --> 02:13:00,159
supposed to fifty years old and his wife was twenty one,

2183
02:13:02,000 --> 02:13:04,720
which is which is great. Uh props to him. Uh

2184
02:13:05,319 --> 02:13:08,640
I hope, uh I hope uh as I age I

2185
02:13:08,640 --> 02:13:12,680
can still attract pretty ladies if if it comes to uh,

2186
02:13:12,800 --> 02:13:15,000
if it comes to seeming like it, it's time for

2187
02:13:15,000 --> 02:13:17,520
me to sire an error. But that aside, Uh, my

2188
02:13:17,680 --> 02:13:22,840
uncle Harold uh who who's my middle name is his namesake?

2189
02:13:24,239 --> 02:13:26,880
He fought on tarable against the Japanese. And you know,

2190
02:13:26,880 --> 02:13:28,600
when I was a little little kid, he talked to

2191
02:13:28,600 --> 02:13:30,920
me about fighting the Japanese, you know, and not in

2192
02:13:30,960 --> 02:13:34,079
a in appropriate way, I mean, but you know that

2193
02:13:34,079 --> 02:13:35,920
that that was common. You know, like you you had

2194
02:13:35,920 --> 02:13:37,960
a grandpa, you had an uncle who you know, fought

2195
02:13:37,960 --> 02:13:39,960
the Japs or something that that was kind of front

2196
02:13:39,960 --> 02:13:42,199
and center, which is why it was strange to me.

2197
02:13:42,279 --> 02:13:45,399
In school, how you know, owing to the owing to

2198
02:13:45,439 --> 02:13:48,199
the demographics where I grew up, and in the political

2199
02:13:48,319 --> 02:13:50,960
climate of the of the nineteen eighties, you know, we

2200
02:13:51,119 --> 02:13:53,920
hear all about this, you know, quote unquote Holocaust theology

2201
02:13:53,960 --> 02:13:57,079
and things, because that that didn't really feature loom large.

2202
02:13:57,159 --> 02:14:00,479
You know, and but my point is that you know,

2203
02:14:00,520 --> 02:14:03,479
as with all conflicts and historical apollable events, you know,

2204
02:14:03,560 --> 02:14:07,800
every things are emphasized, but in revisionist terms like objectively,

2205
02:14:09,520 --> 02:14:14,039
I agree a lot with Ern's Nolty. He talks about

2206
02:14:13,680 --> 02:14:18,359
he talked about the European Civil War, you know, spanning

2207
02:14:18,399 --> 02:14:22,640
from nineteen fourteen to nineteen forty five. You know, he

2208
02:14:22,880 --> 02:14:26,359
looked at it like the Thirty Years War. Okay, if

2209
02:14:26,840 --> 02:14:29,119
the listeners are familiar with that, you know it's kind

2210
02:14:29,159 --> 02:14:34,479
of terrible ongoing sectarian conflict between kingdoms and duchies, uh

2211
02:14:34,840 --> 02:14:38,079
characterized by shifting alliances and and kind of conflicts within

2212
02:14:38,159 --> 02:14:43,239
conflict and things like that. I don't wholly accept nolties.

2213
02:14:44,119 --> 02:14:48,119
I accept Nolty's metaphysical description of the concepts and kind

2214
02:14:48,119 --> 02:14:50,680
of the you know, because he's very much a Hegelian

2215
02:14:50,880 --> 02:14:54,760
or he was. He's dead no, in terms of in

2216
02:14:54,840 --> 02:14:57,000
terms of the kind of for lack of a better

2217
02:14:57,000 --> 02:15:00,000
way to characterize it, metaphysical causes, you know, the kind

2218
02:15:00,039 --> 02:15:02,840
of human causes in terms of ideas and how ideas

2219
02:15:02,880 --> 02:15:07,720
animated people to war. I accept basically when he posits entirely,

2220
02:15:07,800 --> 02:15:13,039
but I diverged somewhat from him describing it as a

2221
02:15:13,079 --> 02:15:17,520
conflict basically analogous to the Thirty Years of War. I

2222
02:15:17,520 --> 02:15:21,680
think of World War Two basically as a war between Hitler, Roosevelt,

2223
02:15:21,760 --> 02:15:25,920
and Stalin. Okay, the Nazi Soviet War, as is known

2224
02:15:26,000 --> 02:15:30,840
kind of in the anglosphere, with America even you know,

2225
02:15:31,079 --> 02:15:33,520
entering on the side of the Soviet Union. Very early on.

2226
02:15:35,560 --> 02:15:38,880
Prior to that, there was a there there was a

2227
02:15:38,960 --> 02:15:42,199
kind of typical of the modern era power political collision

2228
02:15:42,239 --> 02:15:44,640
between France and Germany, you know, owing to kind of

2229
02:15:44,680 --> 02:15:47,600
conventional geopolitics, and that's one of the reasons France, after

2230
02:15:47,640 --> 02:15:51,920
being defeated militarily, basically made real peace of Germany. You know,

2231
02:15:52,479 --> 02:15:54,560
we'll get into that later in the series too. But

2232
02:15:55,359 --> 02:15:57,479
some people might be surprised to learn that when the

2233
02:15:57,520 --> 02:16:00,560
Americans landed in North Africa and forty three, the first

2234
02:16:00,560 --> 02:16:02,760
forces that engaged them were French who were fighting on

2235
02:16:02,800 --> 02:16:07,760
the side of the Axis. Okay, the UK, the UK's

2236
02:16:07,800 --> 02:16:10,800
war against Germany, which ensued in ninety thirty nine at

2237
02:16:10,880 --> 02:16:14,199
you know, when when the UK declared declared war on Berlin.

2238
02:16:15,399 --> 02:16:18,000
I view the UK as having been defeated at Dunkirk,

2239
02:16:18,119 --> 02:16:20,760
and I mean after that the war was basically over

2240
02:16:21,159 --> 02:16:29,119
until the terror bombing was UH was initiated, you know,

2241
02:16:29,199 --> 02:16:35,079
by by UH, by the British bomber arm But that

2242
02:16:35,200 --> 02:16:37,799
really I look at the UK, it's kind of liquidating,

2243
02:16:37,840 --> 02:16:40,559
it's not just its assets but its sovereignty to the

2244
02:16:40,639 --> 02:16:44,520
United States and becoming quite literally a client regime, you know.

2245
02:16:44,680 --> 02:16:47,280
And then so I look at the UK as losing

2246
02:16:47,280 --> 02:16:49,959
its war against Germany, just as France lost its war

2247
02:16:50,000 --> 02:16:54,399
in ninety forty, and in the way could defeat becoming

2248
02:16:54,399 --> 02:16:57,319
a client of the United States in this truly global

2249
02:16:57,399 --> 02:17:01,120
war of the Soviet Uni United States against the German Reich,

2250
02:17:01,200 --> 02:17:05,719
which by that point, you know, had a million non

2251
02:17:05,760 --> 02:17:09,239
Germans under arms NAVAF and asas and had become really

2252
02:17:09,360 --> 02:17:12,239
kind of a truly European army. Leondi Grell talks about

2253
02:17:12,239 --> 02:17:14,479
this and a lot of right wing guys who are

2254
02:17:15,319 --> 02:17:17,760
go into you know, third rights history and things. You know,

2255
02:17:17,799 --> 02:17:19,799
I know a lot of Leondi greel okay, So that

2256
02:17:19,879 --> 02:17:22,559
that's my perspective. I wouldn't bore people to death with

2257
02:17:22,639 --> 02:17:27,639
that kind of elaborate introduction. But what I want to

2258
02:17:27,639 --> 02:17:31,120
get into now is what was the origin of the

2259
02:17:31,120 --> 02:17:34,280
German Soviet War and why did it happen? And first

2260
02:17:34,319 --> 02:17:37,120
I want to tackle some myths that have to be

2261
02:17:37,239 --> 02:17:42,479
sort of dealt with before you get into it. It's

2262
02:17:42,520 --> 02:17:46,680
kind of this fools canard that a lot of kind

2263
02:17:46,680 --> 02:17:49,840
of pop history deals with. And you know, even your people,

2264
02:17:49,920 --> 02:17:53,159
like barstool types, and even you know, even some you know, uh,

2265
02:17:54,520 --> 02:17:56,520
even some people who should know better, you know, like

2266
02:17:56,920 --> 02:18:01,200
history teacher types. They'll say things like, well, Hitler's big

2267
02:18:01,280 --> 02:18:06,360
mistake was assaulting the Soviet Union. The only way Germany

2268
02:18:06,399 --> 02:18:09,879
wins World War two is defeating the Soviet Union. That's

2269
02:18:09,879 --> 02:18:13,000
how you defeat Churchill. That's how you defeat Roosevelt. That's

2270
02:18:13,399 --> 02:18:15,639
how you create fortress to Europe. That's how you make

2271
02:18:15,639 --> 02:18:19,479
Europe a superpower that can compete on the world stage

2272
02:18:19,559 --> 02:18:24,479
in the era of great space politics. Okay, whatever you

2273
02:18:24,600 --> 02:18:27,840
consider to be the primary war ambition in objective terms,

2274
02:18:27,840 --> 02:18:31,040
whatever you consider to be you know, what should have

2275
02:18:31,079 --> 02:18:35,959
been the correct orientation military and political of Berlin. The

2276
02:18:36,000 --> 02:18:39,559
only way to accomplish that is the Soviet Union goes down. Okay,

2277
02:18:40,639 --> 02:18:42,680
So this idea that Hitler was just kind of looking

2278
02:18:42,719 --> 02:18:44,920
at a menu of where should I attack, and oh,

2279
02:18:45,000 --> 02:18:48,799
this was the wrong decision. To attack here, that's not

2280
02:18:49,760 --> 02:18:54,520
really a meaningful understanding of the strategic landscape. Okay, now

2281
02:18:54,520 --> 02:18:57,680
why do I say that? A few reasons. First of all,

2282
02:18:57,719 --> 02:19:00,399
everything about the Third Reich in military terms, and the

2283
02:19:00,399 --> 02:19:03,520
way it structured itself and the way its doctrine became

2284
02:19:04,280 --> 02:19:10,799
progressive to uh, the the you know, the the sort

2285
02:19:10,840 --> 02:19:17,239
of anticipated deployment of uh of uh of forces to

2286
02:19:17,559 --> 02:19:20,920
uh you know, the Hitler's g strategic vision of what

2287
02:19:21,879 --> 02:19:26,440
of what would secure Europe and enable it to compete

2288
02:19:26,559 --> 02:19:30,760
on the world stage in power political terms, everything about

2289
02:19:30,879 --> 02:19:35,760
that calculus owes to the reality the Soviet Union being

2290
02:19:35,799 --> 02:19:40,559
a burgaining superpower and its productive capacity outstripping every other

2291
02:19:40,760 --> 02:19:46,520
state on this planet except potentially the United States. But

2292
02:19:46,639 --> 02:19:48,719
even a second.

2293
02:19:48,559 --> 02:19:52,680
Speaker 1: Okay, so I even I saw this on a comment

2294
02:19:52,920 --> 02:19:58,319
on Twitter yesterday. You're saying it sounds like what you're

2295
02:19:58,360 --> 02:20:03,639
implying is is that Hitler was fighting for basically all

2296
02:20:03,680 --> 02:20:06,680
of Europe, where a lot of people will say Hitler

2297
02:20:06,799 --> 02:20:09,200
just wanted to take every country in Europe and make

2298
02:20:09,200 --> 02:20:12,399
it part of Germany. He wanted to make Europe all

2299
02:20:12,799 --> 02:20:17,040
basically under his power. So that's when when you say

2300
02:20:17,079 --> 02:20:18,959
it like that, it can sound like that and that's

2301
02:20:19,280 --> 02:20:20,520
not at all what happened.

2302
02:20:21,079 --> 02:20:23,760
Speaker 2: Well, there was a couple. Here's the thing. I made

2303
02:20:23,760 --> 02:20:27,239
the point before that, you know, Hitler was a Habsburg Austrian,

2304
02:20:27,319 --> 02:20:30,799
as everybody knows, but he thought like a Prussian. Yet

2305
02:20:30,840 --> 02:20:33,719
somehow he also appealed to these kind of Munich Bavarian types.

2306
02:20:35,760 --> 02:20:42,159
Hitler had to be somewhat cosmopolitan in order to facilitate

2307
02:20:42,239 --> 02:20:44,920
his ascendency. And I don't think that was just a

2308
02:20:44,920 --> 02:20:48,200
cynical ploy. I think he believed that. But it's also

2309
02:20:49,360 --> 02:20:52,559
Hitler made the point again and again that nationalism was dead.

2310
02:20:52,760 --> 02:20:56,120
You know, cabinet warring is you know, was dead. It

2311
02:20:56,159 --> 02:20:58,600
was it was a dead and it wasn't gonna lead anything,

2312
02:20:59,840 --> 02:21:03,200
you know. And he was constantly talking about great space

2313
02:21:03,280 --> 02:21:07,520
paradigms as as being the future of power, political hegemony.

2314
02:21:08,200 --> 02:21:13,159
But also with the exception of Poland, which the Soviets

2315
02:21:13,159 --> 02:21:15,879
in and the and the and the the German Reich

2316
02:21:16,239 --> 02:21:19,760
just just destroyed as a political and cultural or as

2317
02:21:19,760 --> 02:21:21,879
attempt to destroy as cultural entity, he destroyed as a

2318
02:21:21,879 --> 02:21:26,319
political envy. Other than the undependent state of Croatia, which

2319
02:21:26,399 --> 02:21:28,760
really was kind of a mirror of of the of

2320
02:21:28,799 --> 02:21:32,840
the national socialist state, albeit with its own indigenous characteristics.

2321
02:21:33,559 --> 02:21:37,479
Hitler very much opposed exporting some kind of national socialist

2322
02:21:38,000 --> 02:21:42,079
paradigm to other political cultures. That's why Romania we were

2323
02:21:42,120 --> 02:21:44,559
talking about. You know, I made the point that Antonescu

2324
02:21:45,159 --> 02:21:48,399
was I believe Hitler's best ally in a lot of ways.

2325
02:21:48,479 --> 02:21:51,239
He he wasn't as close personally as to the fear

2326
02:21:51,319 --> 02:21:55,840
as Mussolini was, but Romania committed the relative to the

2327
02:21:55,879 --> 02:21:59,280
size of the population. Romania committed a huge contingent of

2328
02:21:59,319 --> 02:22:02,120
men to the Eastern Front. Anton Escu was a war

2329
02:22:02,159 --> 02:22:04,440
hero in his own right. He was a holder of

2330
02:22:04,440 --> 02:22:07,239
the Knight's Cross. He had a great understanding of military

2331
02:22:07,280 --> 02:22:12,000
strategic matters. Hitler favored Antonescu over the Iron Guard. He's like,

2332
02:22:12,040 --> 02:22:15,040
he did not want some radically fascist or fascist oory

2333
02:22:15,239 --> 02:22:19,280
regime or some national socialist type regime taking power in Romania.

2334
02:22:19,760 --> 02:22:23,360
You know, nordidy in in the in the in in Slovakia,

2335
02:22:23,440 --> 02:22:26,440
and Nordidy in Bulgaria, and ord to be in you know,

2336
02:22:26,639 --> 02:22:31,879
uh you could you know outside of uh out and

2337
02:22:31,879 --> 02:22:33,799
and and in France too. I know people talk about

2338
02:22:33,879 --> 02:22:37,920
d VC France. You know the uh it's notable that

2339
02:22:38,159 --> 02:22:41,040
uh until uh it became clear that there was gonna

2340
02:22:41,040 --> 02:22:44,879
be no concord and no peace between uh, the UK

2341
02:22:44,959 --> 02:22:48,399
and Germany. That uh, you know, the uh, the the

2342
02:22:49,239 --> 02:22:56,639
Germans uh it scrupulously avoided occupying, uh, occupying h France

2343
02:22:56,719 --> 02:23:00,920
out outside of the essentral coastal areas. I mean, they

2344
02:23:00,920 --> 02:23:02,680
they didn't do that because they were nice guys. But

2345
02:23:02,959 --> 02:23:04,920
you know, the point being that if the Germans were

2346
02:23:04,959 --> 02:23:07,079
hell bent and you know, kind of destroying Europe and

2347
02:23:07,079 --> 02:23:09,799
restructuring it in the image of of the fear of

2348
02:23:09,879 --> 02:23:13,159
national socialism, they that's not the way you go about that.

2349
02:23:15,559 --> 02:23:18,840
Speaker 1: And uh, you and Franco and Salazar would have had

2350
02:23:18,879 --> 02:23:21,120
something to say about that, just using two examples.

2351
02:23:21,360 --> 02:23:24,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. So, I mean it's more complicated. You know,

2352
02:23:24,000 --> 02:23:25,920
it's not it's not a question of whether Hitler was

2353
02:23:25,959 --> 02:23:28,559
a good guy or not. I mean, in but in

2354
02:23:28,639 --> 02:23:33,959
objective terms, that's not that that's not really the sensibility

2355
02:23:33,959 --> 02:23:36,520
that guided him. And I mean, yeah, there were men

2356
02:23:36,760 --> 02:23:38,959
in the O k W and and there certainly were

2357
02:23:39,000 --> 02:23:41,559
men in the in the National Socialist Party who had

2358
02:23:41,559 --> 02:23:44,360
a very chauvinistic view of things, you know, in in

2359
02:23:44,360 --> 02:23:47,319
in racial terms and in ethnic terms. But I mean

2360
02:23:47,360 --> 02:23:50,559
that's that's just characteristic of Europe. And you know, regardless,

2361
02:23:50,680 --> 02:23:53,319
even Germany today, which is you know, this runk state

2362
02:23:53,399 --> 02:23:58,440
shadowed its form of self, you know, Europe it orbits

2363
02:23:58,639 --> 02:24:01,520
around Berlin. I mean that's inevitable, you know, I mean

2364
02:24:01,600 --> 02:24:05,479
in some basic sense. So yeah, I if the Germans

2365
02:24:05,520 --> 02:24:08,079
got their way. When I say the Germans, I mean

2366
02:24:08,120 --> 02:24:13,520
the Third Reich, definitely nothing would have happened on the

2367
02:24:13,559 --> 02:24:17,799
continent within their sphere of influence and dominance without their

2368
02:24:17,959 --> 02:24:20,479
say so by this idea that they would have just

2369
02:24:20,479 --> 02:24:23,639
created puppet regimes everywhere, like you know, characteristic of the

2370
02:24:23,680 --> 02:24:26,920
Warsaw Pact, the Soviet Union. Like, that's not the case.

2371
02:24:26,959 --> 02:24:30,920
And that I you know, what I'm gonna dive into

2372
02:24:30,959 --> 02:24:35,040
in a moment is how it wasn't just military exigencies

2373
02:24:35,079 --> 02:24:38,200
that you know, in the reality of power politics that

2374
02:24:38,840 --> 02:24:43,719
led the fur and and UH and the party as

2375
02:24:43,719 --> 02:24:46,719
well as you know, the military apparatus and the and

2376
02:24:46,760 --> 02:24:50,120
the kind of industrial national economic elite to kind of

2377
02:24:50,159 --> 02:24:56,200
structure UH the state UH and its productive capacities to

2378
02:24:56,239 --> 02:25:00,399
the combat the Soviet Union and material terms. But really,

2379
02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:03,520
even if you're not a Hitgelian like I am, you've

2380
02:25:03,520 --> 02:25:07,239
got to understand the emergence and national socialism. It can

2381
02:25:07,280 --> 02:25:13,840
only be understood as in dialectical conflict with communism. And

2382
02:25:14,360 --> 02:25:18,719
what animated people to fight against the Soviet Union wasn't that,

2383
02:25:19,360 --> 02:25:22,200
you know, they loved the fear so much, or they

2384
02:25:22,239 --> 02:25:25,399
loved Berlin, or they all wanted to be dominated by Germany.

2385
02:25:25,959 --> 02:25:29,520
It was because they didn't view another path to European

2386
02:25:29,600 --> 02:25:33,159
survival as a discrete cultural form and way of life,

2387
02:25:33,840 --> 02:25:36,840
you know, to say nothing of of of of politically

2388
02:25:37,280 --> 02:25:40,520
sovereign and independent states within what could be considered a

2389
02:25:40,559 --> 02:25:46,600
European you know, uh structure without uh you.

2390
02:25:46,559 --> 02:25:48,120
Speaker 1: Know, without confederation.

2391
02:25:48,680 --> 02:25:53,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for better or worse. But the point is that,

2392
02:25:53,840 --> 02:25:55,799
you know, you wouldn't have had you would not have

2393
02:25:55,879 --> 02:25:58,959
hit millions of literally, you know, a million non Germans

2394
02:25:58,959 --> 02:26:04,280
in the vafen SS, a good portion of which we're volunteers.

2395
02:26:04,399 --> 02:26:07,319
If you know, if if they were just fighting for

2396
02:26:07,360 --> 02:26:10,600
the you know, the on behalf of of of you know,

2397
02:26:10,760 --> 02:26:13,399
bringing the German boot heel down on their neck or something.

2398
02:26:13,440 --> 02:26:16,719
You know, I mean, it's not that that's a gross oversimplification.

2399
02:26:16,879 --> 02:26:20,799
And you know, German racialism, we might find it off putting.

2400
02:26:21,000 --> 02:26:22,760
In the twenty firth century. If I make the point

2401
02:26:22,799 --> 02:26:26,200
again and again, that's the way everybody on the planet thought. Okay,

2402
02:26:26,280 --> 02:26:30,040
not everybody thought in terms of you know, uh, we're

2403
02:26:30,040 --> 02:26:33,520
not so aggressively and dialectically hostile to Jews and what

2404
02:26:33,559 --> 02:26:37,120
they viewed as Jewish power. But you better believe that

2405
02:26:37,239 --> 02:26:40,639
in America, eugenics was what everybody thought was, you know,

2406
02:26:41,040 --> 02:26:44,120
the correct kind of application of anthropology. You better believe

2407
02:26:44,159 --> 02:26:46,440
everybody in the UK and everybody in Japan viewed a

2408
02:26:46,520 --> 02:26:50,280
hierarchy of races. Okay, so it's not it's not weird

2409
02:26:50,319 --> 02:26:53,040
that the Germans viewed nationality in terms of race or

2410
02:26:53,360 --> 02:26:55,520
had this kind of strange idea that you know, your

2411
02:26:55,559 --> 02:26:59,559
blood or are in our terms you know DNA. But

2412
02:26:59,600 --> 02:27:02,799
in those they obviously you know that the human genome

2413
02:27:03,079 --> 02:27:05,440
been mapped and people didn't understand those kinds of things.

2414
02:27:05,959 --> 02:27:10,959
But the even people who are relatively traditional minded, and

2415
02:27:10,959 --> 02:27:13,719
even people who had some affinity still for religion and

2416
02:27:13,799 --> 02:27:16,639
believe the religion took a huge hit in the twentieth century.

2417
02:27:16,760 --> 02:27:20,520
Thankfully that has abated, and that's the subject for another show.

2418
02:27:20,639 --> 02:27:24,079
But you know, it's another thing that's mischaracterized, this idea

2419
02:27:24,120 --> 02:27:27,040
that oh, the Germans were these crazy guys who had

2420
02:27:27,159 --> 02:27:31,120
this kind of biologically determinate view of human behavior. That's

2421
02:27:31,440 --> 02:27:35,319
that's the way everybody thought, you know. I'd argue that

2422
02:27:35,399 --> 02:27:38,799
Germans were somewhat less fixated that way than the Americans,

2423
02:27:39,399 --> 02:27:42,799
Like America literally had like Francis Galton and guys like

2424
02:27:43,040 --> 02:27:46,360
Lothrop Stodter, who was a journalist, you know, they they

2425
02:27:46,399 --> 02:27:50,479
were literally fixated on this idea that you know, morphological

2426
02:27:50,559 --> 02:27:53,959
characteristics or indicative of behavior and potential. Like don't get

2427
02:27:53,959 --> 02:27:57,319
me wrong, I believe like race is a significant biological characteristic.

2428
02:27:57,360 --> 02:28:00,879
I'm not saying otherwise. But they were foolish about it,

2429
02:28:00,920 --> 02:28:02,879
and they they talk about it in ways that don't

2430
02:28:02,879 --> 02:28:05,520
make sense, you know, like your your culture is not

2431
02:28:05,639 --> 02:28:09,479
biologically programmed or something. You know, it's not that's that's

2432
02:28:09,520 --> 02:28:16,959
that's nonsense. But so that's important to understand. But getting

2433
02:28:17,000 --> 02:28:20,440
back to uh, there's a quote I wanted to drop.

2434
02:28:20,760 --> 02:28:23,000
It's about one of the only things that I think

2435
02:28:23,079 --> 02:28:25,879
is kind of remains timely about mind comp. I made

2436
02:28:25,879 --> 02:28:29,200
the point before in our own discussions as well as

2437
02:28:29,200 --> 02:28:33,559
I think on the record, mine COMP was really an

2438
02:28:33,600 --> 02:28:36,920
election year screed. It's not supposed to have this perennial

2439
02:28:37,319 --> 02:28:42,360
enduring significance. Hitler didn't really get into either metaphysics or

2440
02:28:42,440 --> 02:28:45,840
kind of deep astoricism. It was it's really kind of

2441
02:28:45,879 --> 02:28:51,040
a an appeal of the you know, an election, your

2442
02:28:51,040 --> 02:28:54,840
appeal to Wymur voters that to wide the National Socialists

2443
02:28:54,840 --> 02:28:58,879
are gonna, you know, pursue policy that's the correct path forward.

2444
02:28:59,440 --> 02:29:03,399
But there is there is and was I think in

2445
02:29:03,440 --> 02:29:07,920
most editions it's on Peage sixty. If I'm wrong with

2446
02:29:07,959 --> 02:29:10,239
the addition you or anybody has, like, forgive me that.

2447
02:29:10,319 --> 02:29:12,799
But I'm gonna read this in a moment, and I

2448
02:29:12,799 --> 02:29:15,440
try and avoid like direct quoting text. But here I

2449
02:29:15,440 --> 02:29:21,920
think it's it's uh, it's timely. Let me, let me

2450
02:29:21,959 --> 02:29:28,600
find what I'm looking for, okay, itt Uh. Something Nolty

2451
02:29:28,760 --> 02:29:32,159
talked about was fear of what he called practical transcendence.

2452
02:29:32,239 --> 02:29:35,120
I mean that's somewhat there's not so much loss in

2453
02:29:35,159 --> 02:29:39,159
translation as there's not a deep metaphysical tradition and American

2454
02:29:39,159 --> 02:29:42,959
political theory, I mean owing to the owing to the

2455
02:29:43,000 --> 02:29:45,200
fact that you know, America so kind of bound up

2456
02:29:45,200 --> 02:29:48,040
with the rationals tradition and and and such that America

2457
02:29:48,120 --> 02:29:53,159
does have kind of a a metaphysical tradition and it's

2458
02:29:53,319 --> 02:29:57,440
and it's uh indigenous philosophy. It's it's basically Aristotelian and

2459
02:29:57,520 --> 02:30:01,120
Bible Protestant, which is my own hearth. I'm not in

2460
02:30:01,159 --> 02:30:07,639
any way suggesting that's bad, but it's not. It doesn't

2461
02:30:07,680 --> 02:30:12,559
really shed light on the European mind. Okay. Practical transcendence

2462
02:30:12,879 --> 02:30:14,760
and the term Nolty was talking about, it's kind of

2463
02:30:14,760 --> 02:30:21,559
a Hedigerian concept. It refers to conceptual horizons of the

2464
02:30:21,600 --> 02:30:27,600
past kind of being destroyed by collision with modern institutions

2465
02:30:27,639 --> 02:30:31,239
and ideas and ways of interpreting and experiencing the world

2466
02:30:31,239 --> 02:30:34,360
around us. You know, So whether you're talking about beloved

2467
02:30:34,360 --> 02:30:39,120
institutions of culture or of you know, or or social

2468
02:30:39,239 --> 02:30:43,959
organization or of a labor you know, becoming outmoded and

2469
02:30:44,120 --> 02:30:46,520
man being kind of ripped out of these environments that

2470
02:30:46,520 --> 02:30:48,440
has provided in not just an identity, but with a

2471
02:30:48,520 --> 02:30:53,319
kind of historical rootedness and and and consciousness that you know,

2472
02:30:53,479 --> 02:30:57,680
indoors across generations. You know. The process by which that

2473
02:30:57,799 --> 02:31:00,200
sort of thing is becomes remote, if not out and

2474
02:31:00,239 --> 02:31:05,399
out abolished, is refer with practical transcendence and within Nolties

2475
02:31:05,440 --> 02:31:10,760
and to some lesser great Heidegger's paradigm. Now, Hitler was

2476
02:31:10,799 --> 02:31:13,799
not a philosopher, and in purport to be, but he

2477
02:31:14,280 --> 02:31:17,319
acknowledged in some basic sense that some of this is inevitable,

2478
02:31:17,959 --> 02:31:22,639
because that's just you know, one of the crosses. Proverbially,

2479
02:31:22,879 --> 02:31:27,280
European man is the bear h not just as you

2480
02:31:27,280 --> 02:31:34,639
know he experiences hypermodernity, but European man, you know, kind

2481
02:31:34,639 --> 02:31:37,680
of being enamored with you know, the you know, the

2482
02:31:37,799 --> 02:31:41,920
the Faustian ethos and spirit, and being enamored with technics

2483
02:31:41,920 --> 02:31:46,360
and technology, he runs the real risk of losing himself

2484
02:31:46,399 --> 02:31:49,639
in these things. Okay, But of course, to Hitler, one

2485
02:31:49,680 --> 02:31:53,639
of the most insidious iterations of this tendency towards practical

2486
02:31:53,680 --> 02:31:58,040
transcendence was Marxism. And you know, Marxism was a perversion

2487
02:31:58,079 --> 02:32:01,840
of these things, deliberately and kind of weaponized iteration of

2488
02:32:01,879 --> 02:32:04,079
these things, because it came out of the Jewish world

2489
02:32:04,120 --> 02:32:07,840
of social existence. Now, Hiler wasn't saying this is a conspiracy.

2490
02:32:08,000 --> 02:32:11,280
He was saying that there's an intrinsic hostility of the

2491
02:32:11,360 --> 02:32:15,120
Jewish culture as an and the way it expresses itself

2492
02:32:15,120 --> 02:32:18,920
politically is always in in the form of hostile discourse.

2493
02:32:19,000 --> 02:32:20,040
Speaker 1: Okay.

2494
02:32:20,840 --> 02:32:25,280
Speaker 2: So the way Hitler described Marxism and what it represents

2495
02:32:25,319 --> 02:32:30,600
to European man in mind count he said, and I quote,

2496
02:32:31,440 --> 02:32:35,159
the Jewish doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of

2497
02:32:35,280 --> 02:32:38,440
nature and replaces the eternal privilege of power and strength

2498
02:32:38,479 --> 02:32:41,799
by the massive numbers and their dead weight. Thus it

2499
02:32:41,799 --> 02:32:45,040
denies the value of personality in man. It contests the

2500
02:32:45,079 --> 02:32:48,399
significance of nationality and race and everybody would draw us

2501
02:32:48,399 --> 02:32:51,920
from humanity, the premise of its existence and culture as

2502
02:32:51,920 --> 02:32:54,840
a foundation of the universe. This doctrine would bring about

2503
02:32:54,879 --> 02:32:59,239
the end of any order intellectually conceivable to man, and

2504
02:32:59,280 --> 02:33:02,200
as in the Great used to all recognizable organisms, the

2505
02:33:02,239 --> 02:33:04,479
result of an application of such a law could only

2506
02:33:04,520 --> 02:33:07,440
be chaos on Earth. It can only be the destruction.

2507
02:33:08,239 --> 02:33:11,879
It could only be destruction of the inhabitants of this planet. If,

2508
02:33:11,920 --> 02:33:14,479
with the help of his Marxist creed, the jew is

2509
02:33:14,559 --> 02:33:17,559
victorious over the other peoples of the world, his crown

2510
02:33:17,600 --> 02:33:20,639
will be the funeral reef of humanity, and this planet will,

2511
02:33:20,719 --> 02:33:23,319
as it did thousands of years ago, moved through the

2512
02:33:23,319 --> 02:33:27,559
ether devoid of men. That sounds very melodramatic, and it is.

2513
02:33:28,120 --> 02:33:32,559
You can even say it's overwrought language, but aof Hitler

2514
02:33:32,600 --> 02:33:38,840
believed this one, and that is the end result of

2515
02:33:40,159 --> 02:33:42,680
the Marxist enterprize. Even if you don't accept that it's

2516
02:33:42,719 --> 02:33:45,959
a Jewish idea or that it was born of, you know,

2517
02:33:46,000 --> 02:33:48,479
a Jewish world of social existence. I'm not here to

2518
02:33:48,639 --> 02:33:56,159
argue with that point or unpack that, but it's indisputable

2519
02:33:56,399 --> 02:34:00,760
that the removal of man from history, Marxism by it's

2520
02:34:00,799 --> 02:34:05,920
an unmpostulate. It seeks to literally end history and you know,

2521
02:34:06,879 --> 02:34:11,000
remove man from the kind of intellectual slavery in their

2522
02:34:11,079 --> 02:34:13,879
view of these conceits of metaphysics, or of God, or

2523
02:34:13,920 --> 02:34:18,040
of anything. Because in the Marxist women is paradigm. These

2524
02:34:18,079 --> 02:34:21,760
things are all contrivances of of of that that rationalized

2525
02:34:21,799 --> 02:34:25,680
power dynamics, you know, relating to labor and capital and

2526
02:34:25,799 --> 02:34:31,239
authority and hierarchy that's imposed the you know, to satisfy

2527
02:34:31,280 --> 02:34:34,559
the demands of those things. You know, it's it's it's

2528
02:34:34,600 --> 02:34:40,120
a it's an ideology of cultural annihilation masquerading in some

2529
02:34:40,200 --> 02:34:42,040
basic sense as an economic science.

2530
02:34:42,360 --> 02:34:42,559
Speaker 1: You know.

2531
02:34:43,719 --> 02:34:45,639
Speaker 2: Now that's not to say that Marxist all, you know,

2532
02:34:45,680 --> 02:34:47,879
we're rubbing their hands together and saying, oh, I want

2533
02:34:47,879 --> 02:34:50,840
to destroy Europe or I want to destroy white Christian civilization.

2534
02:34:51,360 --> 02:34:54,840
Certainly some of them did think that, but probably most

2535
02:34:54,879 --> 02:34:58,479
of them didn't. But we're talking about the way man

2536
02:34:58,520 --> 02:35:02,559
instinctively responds to a lot of them still do yes indeed,

2537
02:35:02,760 --> 02:35:04,520
and I say more so do now in terms of

2538
02:35:04,600 --> 02:35:08,479
raw percentage before. But you know the problem. The reason

2539
02:35:08,479 --> 02:35:11,200
why idea has developed this kind of monumental power to

2540
02:35:11,239 --> 02:35:14,239
animate people is because people are taken in by them

2541
02:35:14,559 --> 02:35:18,239
in apocabal terms, and when people are confronted by by crises,

2542
02:35:18,879 --> 02:35:22,000
you know particularly you know, not just the physical mortal crisis,

2543
02:35:22,040 --> 02:35:24,399
but at the same time, you know, a kind of

2544
02:35:24,719 --> 02:35:29,280
a kind of a kind of psychological psychological crisis of

2545
02:35:29,399 --> 02:35:33,239
their conceptual horizon. You know, not just to them personally,

2546
02:35:33,280 --> 02:35:35,399
but in there the entire culture. When they're mired. You

2547
02:35:35,399 --> 02:35:39,239
know this, this whole kind of conceptual horizon imploating on itself.

2548
02:35:39,280 --> 02:35:42,520
And you know, values that preceding generations can take for granted,

2549
02:35:42,639 --> 02:35:44,760
you know, no longer having a context, and man no

2550
02:35:44,799 --> 02:35:47,680
longer having any poll stars to orient himself within his

2551
02:35:47,760 --> 02:35:51,840
life individually or among a community in which he lives.

2552
02:35:52,319 --> 02:35:55,120
You know this people, people have become desperate to to

2553
02:35:55,239 --> 02:36:00,920
make sense of of of these chaotic, you know, circumstances,

2554
02:36:01,520 --> 02:36:05,959
and uh, they get they get very much taken in by, uh,

2555
02:36:06,079 --> 02:36:09,319
by paradigms that seem to make sense and seem to reflect,

2556
02:36:09,920 --> 02:36:13,280
you know, the the concrete circumstances in which they're they're found.

2557
02:36:14,120 --> 02:36:20,120
So that's that's essential. Uh, that's essential to understand why,

2558
02:36:21,760 --> 02:36:24,680
you know, the National Socialists were not just making a

2559
02:36:24,719 --> 02:36:28,719
boogeyman of Marxism or something, and they weren't just they

2560
02:36:28,719 --> 02:36:31,600
weren't they weren't just trying to rationalize what amount of

2561
02:36:31,600 --> 02:36:34,280
you like, a racial or tribal prejudice against the Eastern

2562
02:36:34,319 --> 02:36:39,719
Slavs under the under aven year of of ideology or something. Now,

2563
02:36:40,040 --> 02:36:43,520
there may have been an aspect of that, because there

2564
02:36:43,559 --> 02:36:46,879
certainly wasn't love lost between the Germans and the Eastern Slavs,

2565
02:36:46,920 --> 02:36:51,680
and particularly a man like Adolf Hitler, who would have

2566
02:36:51,760 --> 02:36:55,959
viewed Serbia essentially as responsible for the great work, you know.

2567
02:36:56,120 --> 02:37:00,639
And opposite Hitler within his coalition, he's Prussian off types,

2568
02:37:01,120 --> 02:37:04,200
you know, who would have viewed the Eastern Slavs not

2569
02:37:04,319 --> 02:37:06,120
unlike you know, the way like a white man in

2570
02:37:06,159 --> 02:37:08,799
the West would have you gepanche or something you know

2571
02:37:08,840 --> 02:37:11,159
in the frontier days. I mean I'm not saying that

2572
02:37:11,239 --> 02:37:15,719
to put shade on either Indians or Slavic people and

2573
02:37:15,840 --> 02:37:18,959
talking about how they were viewed as this fearful other

2574
02:37:19,079 --> 02:37:26,719
that was you know, somehow savage and dangerous. But the

2575
02:37:26,719 --> 02:37:30,879
the h if you want to understand national socialism, I mean, yes,

2576
02:37:30,959 --> 02:37:34,120
there was positive characteristic the only positive like this is

2577
02:37:34,159 --> 02:37:38,200
a laudable I'm not istwing a value judgment. I mean proactive,

2578
02:37:38,239 --> 02:37:43,159
spontaneous characteristics that gave rise ideology. But you know, an

2579
02:37:43,159 --> 02:37:47,920
equal percentage of its content was like ethically I mean

2580
02:37:48,000 --> 02:37:52,879
and conceptually was reactive and it would do the the

2581
02:37:53,520 --> 02:37:57,040
conceptual challenge posed by communism. And this was not just

2582
02:37:57,040 --> 02:37:58,879
something remote like we talked about in one of our

2583
02:37:58,920 --> 02:38:04,840
first episodes. Uh, it's you know, they look quite literally,

2584
02:38:04,920 --> 02:38:08,000
you know in in Berlin and Munich especially, you know

2585
02:38:08,000 --> 02:38:11,920
where the the Bavarian Munich Bavarian Soviet you know actually

2586
02:38:12,079 --> 02:38:15,159
for a brief period was was was the reigning government.

2587
02:38:15,200 --> 02:38:18,920
I mean, albeit they captured sovereign power through violence, but

2588
02:38:19,120 --> 02:38:21,959
you know this, uh, you know, and and and to

2589
02:38:22,000 --> 02:38:23,959
say nothing of what happened in the Baltics where you know,

2590
02:38:24,000 --> 02:38:28,399
you had many many German refugees, you know, owing to

2591
02:38:28,479 --> 02:38:31,760
fear of being ethnically cleaned when the when the the

2592
02:38:31,760 --> 02:38:36,280
bullshits exported the time to export the revolution there. But so,

2593
02:38:36,280 --> 02:38:39,000
I mean this was very This is something that uh,

2594
02:38:39,360 --> 02:38:43,879
German people had firsthand knowledge of. You know, it's not

2595
02:38:44,159 --> 02:38:47,719
just a question then becoming fearful about something remote or

2596
02:38:48,000 --> 02:38:51,239
that they read in the papers or whatever. But moving

2597
02:38:51,239 --> 02:38:56,040
on to the kind of concrete circumstances. One of the

2598
02:38:56,079 --> 02:39:01,719
big myths is uh of the of the German Soviet

2599
02:39:01,840 --> 02:39:08,000
War and Stalin's intentions opposite Adolf Hitler's, was this idea

2600
02:39:08,079 --> 02:39:10,920
that well, the Soviet Union was this inward looking kind

2601
02:39:10,959 --> 02:39:13,799
of state and it you know, the Soviets were just

2602
02:39:13,840 --> 02:39:15,680
you know, the Russian were just kind of primitive, and

2603
02:39:16,120 --> 02:39:19,399
you know, Stalin declared socialism in one country because he

2604
02:39:19,440 --> 02:39:26,079
had no interest in a truly global power politique. And also,

2605
02:39:26,239 --> 02:39:30,079
like within that kind of fatuous narrative, there's a claim

2606
02:39:30,159 --> 02:39:33,760
that like, well, you know, Germany was this aggressive, was

2607
02:39:33,799 --> 02:39:36,719
this aggressive power that was assaulting all its neighbors, you know,

2608
02:39:36,879 --> 02:39:39,799
like Austria and Czechoslovakia and Poland, and you know, the

2609
02:39:39,840 --> 02:39:43,799
Soviet Union was pursuing a path of relative peace over

2610
02:39:43,879 --> 02:39:47,760
badly it treated people within its own borders. That that's

2611
02:39:47,760 --> 02:39:52,440
a bold face lie, and we're going to talk about that.

2612
02:39:54,360 --> 02:39:59,879
As of nineteen forty, owing to aggressive invasion and conquests

2613
02:40:00,079 --> 02:40:02,479
well as as was the case being of the Baltic,

2614
02:40:02,520 --> 02:40:06,399
as was the case with the Baltic in Romania, by

2615
02:40:07,559 --> 02:40:14,319
coercion and threat. By nineteen forty, the Soviet Union had

2616
02:40:14,360 --> 02:40:18,479
expanded its territory by four hundred and twenty six thousand

2617
02:40:18,520 --> 02:40:25,440
square kilometers. Okay, if you want for reference, that is

2618
02:40:25,479 --> 02:40:27,600
the size of the entire service area of what the

2619
02:40:27,639 --> 02:40:30,719
German Reich advantas of nineteen nineteen. This is a huge

2620
02:40:30,719 --> 02:40:36,239
amount of territory. Okay. The Soviet Union had spontaneously invaded Finland,

2621
02:40:36,360 --> 02:40:41,719
it had invaded Poland, you know, days weeks after that

2622
02:40:41,760 --> 02:40:44,520
Wehrmacht did. And I mean, as we talked about last

2623
02:40:44,520 --> 02:40:49,840
episode when Joe Kennedy posed to John Simon, like why why,

2624
02:40:50,159 --> 02:40:52,520
why why isn't it bothered? You know, mister Church older,

2625
02:40:52,559 --> 02:40:57,360
mister Chamberlain, that the Soviet Union assaulted, assaulted Poland too,

2626
02:40:57,440 --> 02:41:02,680
Like nobody can answer this question, but you know, so

2627
02:41:02,799 --> 02:41:06,879
you have in addition to the kind of a foundation

2628
02:41:07,000 --> 02:41:10,479
that we already established with respect to the you know,

2629
02:41:11,680 --> 02:41:15,879
the German political mind for better or worse, you know,

2630
02:41:16,479 --> 02:41:19,239
viewing not just Germany but the entire European way of

2631
02:41:19,280 --> 02:41:23,479
life coming under threat from Marxist Leninism. You had quite

2632
02:41:23,479 --> 02:41:26,079
literally what was becoming the worlds for superpower in the

2633
02:41:26,120 --> 02:41:32,959
Soviet Union, Okay, and Germany, despite the fact that they

2634
02:41:32,959 --> 02:41:38,799
had pretty soundly you know, defeated the British Army at Dunkirk,

2635
02:41:40,360 --> 02:41:42,600
Germany still was engaged in a state of war with

2636
02:41:42,639 --> 02:41:46,000
the UK, which still had an incredibly powerful navy in

2637
02:41:46,120 --> 02:41:52,399
relative terms. They still had uh, you know, a producate

2638
02:41:52,479 --> 02:41:56,440
capacity to reconstitute uh a strategic air arm which they

2639
02:41:56,920 --> 02:41:58,920
certainly did do to devastating effect. And we're going to

2640
02:41:58,959 --> 02:42:02,520
get into that it'll later episode. But by nineteen forty,

2641
02:42:03,079 --> 02:42:05,040
you know, not only to have the Soviet Union, which

2642
02:42:05,079 --> 02:42:11,280
as we just discussed, you know, had aggressively annexed a

2643
02:42:11,360 --> 02:42:15,639
huge amount of territory, Germany was engaged essentially, they had

2644
02:42:15,680 --> 02:42:19,239
a hostile front to defend that stretched from Norway to

2645
02:42:19,280 --> 02:42:24,760
the Pyrenees as a potential as a potential battle space. Okay,

2646
02:42:25,120 --> 02:42:28,680
they were in grave danger of losing access to Romanian petroleum,

2647
02:42:28,840 --> 02:42:34,040
which is really their only source of of petrol, if

2648
02:42:35,239 --> 02:42:37,120
you know, the fuel or war machine, as any modern

2649
02:42:37,159 --> 02:42:40,200
war machine is fueled by. If if Stalin had given

2650
02:42:40,239 --> 02:42:43,840
the order to you know, formally annexed Romania un proceed

2651
02:42:43,840 --> 02:42:47,680
to embargo any you know, any access, Germany would have

2652
02:42:49,559 --> 02:42:52,879
two essential commodities they're in. Like what I'm getting at

2653
02:42:52,920 --> 02:42:55,639
here is that, you know, Germany was in a position

2654
02:42:55,680 --> 02:42:59,120
of abject inferiority in the material terms and military terms

2655
02:42:59,120 --> 02:43:02,879
and geostrategics. So not only is this idea that the

2656
02:43:02,879 --> 02:43:06,520
Soviet Union was benign laughable, but it's it's you know,

2657
02:43:06,600 --> 02:43:14,079
Germany was in a very critical position. Now something interesting happened,

2658
02:43:15,120 --> 02:43:21,000
not just interesting, but critical, in my opinion. In November

2659
02:43:21,040 --> 02:43:24,559
twelfth and thirteen, nineteen forty, Stalin transmitted a series of

2660
02:43:24,639 --> 02:43:29,479
demands to Molotov. As I think people probably know, Malotov

2661
02:43:30,920 --> 02:43:34,559
was not just a man who invented a particular kind

2662
02:43:34,559 --> 02:43:37,159
of cocktail that people light on fire and throw it,

2663
02:43:37,280 --> 02:43:39,520
you know, the British police and Northern Ireland and things.

2664
02:43:39,559 --> 02:43:45,200
But it yeah, he was the Soviet He was the

2665
02:43:45,239 --> 02:43:55,000
Soviet Foreign Minister, and he was within within the paradigm

2666
02:43:55,040 --> 02:43:59,120
of the Soviet power. You know, until from from ninety

2667
02:43:59,159 --> 02:44:03,440
seventeen until you know, the fallow that Berlin Wall, there

2668
02:44:03,520 --> 02:44:09,200
was very very little leeway that that people had in

2669
02:44:09,799 --> 02:44:15,319
the foreign in the foreign policy establishment, you know, to

2670
02:44:15,319 --> 02:44:18,200
to to negotiate on their own terms or according to

2671
02:44:18,239 --> 02:44:23,000
their own instincts, you know, and particularly Stalin, he very

2672
02:44:23,239 --> 02:44:28,680
rigidly controlled what was said, what was guaranteed, what official

2673
02:44:28,799 --> 02:44:32,079
terms were from Moscow. So what I'm getting is that

2674
02:44:32,120 --> 02:44:34,799
whatever Molotov conveyed to Berlin, you know, whether he was

2675
02:44:34,799 --> 02:44:37,799
talking to ribon Trough, whether he was talking to you know,

2676
02:44:37,840 --> 02:44:40,559
the right chancery was, whoever he was talking to, it

2677
02:44:40,600 --> 02:44:43,360
was as good as coming from Stalin. Okay, that's that's

2678
02:44:43,440 --> 02:44:49,799
not a myth. That's it's not me simplifying circumstances to

2679
02:44:49,799 --> 02:44:52,120
show up a point or something. And it's inarguable, and

2680
02:44:52,479 --> 02:44:58,639
pretty much everybody agrees on that, revisionists or not, the

2681
02:44:58,680 --> 02:45:04,319
demands of Stalin transmitt We're basically this the non aggression

2682
02:45:04,360 --> 02:45:07,440
pack that Hitler had signed, that Reveren Traub and Molotov

2683
02:45:07,479 --> 02:45:09,600
had signed it at Hitler's behest, you know, the tenure

2684
02:45:09,600 --> 02:45:14,120
non aggression pag between the Soviet Union and Berlin. UH

2685
02:45:14,280 --> 02:45:19,399
Stalin periodically was issuing demands as to whatever require for

2686
02:45:19,559 --> 02:45:23,559
it to be honored. Now, of course, he was very

2687
02:45:23,600 --> 02:45:26,520
sly about the way he phrased this. He wasn't saying, okay,

2688
02:45:26,680 --> 02:45:29,000
you'll either a bide these demands I have or willing

2689
02:45:29,120 --> 02:45:33,040
to attack you. But the inference was obvious, and it

2690
02:45:33,079 --> 02:45:35,040
was the only inference that could be drawn. And this

2691
02:45:35,079 --> 02:45:38,680
will become clearer as I we get more into this conversation.

2692
02:45:38,879 --> 02:45:44,399
But on November twelve and thirteen, what the demands were

2693
02:45:44,799 --> 02:45:48,319
was uh Molotov said that in order for the Soviet

2694
02:45:48,399 --> 02:45:52,319
Union to be able to peaceably, you know, coexist, you know,

2695
02:45:52,399 --> 02:45:55,520
with Germany as well as as well as provide for

2696
02:45:55,600 --> 02:45:59,319
its own security and as well as the facilitated its

2697
02:45:59,360 --> 02:46:02,680
ability to deploy in depth, you know, it would need

2698
02:46:02,719 --> 02:46:08,559
to increase its sphere of influence to include Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Greece,

2699
02:46:08,639 --> 02:46:12,520
Yugoslavia and all of now all of Finland, not just

2700
02:46:12,680 --> 02:46:17,280
archangel but all of Finland and Hitler at Uh albeit

2701
02:46:17,360 --> 02:46:23,319
frosty but reasonably friendly relations with Gustav Mannerheim, the Marshal

2702
02:46:23,360 --> 02:46:28,239
of Finland, and obviously this was Stalin basically demanding that

2703
02:46:28,360 --> 02:46:33,399
you know, Germany had abandoned any any uh, any pretension

2704
02:46:33,399 --> 02:46:36,760
of a Finland of some sort of you know, line

2705
02:46:36,799 --> 02:46:40,000
in the sand against Soviet expansion. Right, this is incredibly

2706
02:46:40,040 --> 02:46:42,719
brazen and you've got to ask yourself, Okay, if supposedly

2707
02:46:42,799 --> 02:46:46,239
Stalin was this man kind of of the Third Reich,

2708
02:46:46,360 --> 02:46:49,799
or or you know, if the Soviet Union was it

2709
02:46:49,920 --> 02:46:55,399
was somehow weak in material terms, you know, in forces

2710
02:46:55,399 --> 02:46:57,040
and being a relative to the third right, you know,

2711
02:46:57,040 --> 02:46:59,159
how can he be issuing these demands? That doesn't make

2712
02:46:59,200 --> 02:47:01,680
any sense? And all. So if if Failer was this

2713
02:47:01,760 --> 02:47:05,879
kind of reckless maniac who just gave attack orders, you know,

2714
02:47:05,920 --> 02:47:08,600
without thinking, I mean, why wouldn't just be inviting an

2715
02:47:08,639 --> 02:47:11,600
immediate assault like no, none, This makes sense obviously, unless

2716
02:47:12,559 --> 02:47:17,399
one is willing to kind of reject, reject the kind

2717
02:47:17,440 --> 02:47:25,959
of prevailing there is now obviously this Molotov uh, these

2718
02:47:26,000 --> 02:47:28,920
Molotov demands, which you know, the fact that we're Stalin

2719
02:47:29,000 --> 02:47:33,559
demands obviously, I mean, there's really only two options here.

2720
02:47:33,600 --> 02:47:38,120
I mean Germany could have opted to fight, and in

2721
02:47:38,159 --> 02:47:41,040
the case of Germany that would have meant and did

2722
02:47:41,079 --> 02:47:48,360
mean a preemptive assault, or simply accept UH, Soviet hegemony

2723
02:47:48,440 --> 02:47:57,079
and in UH in A in the twentieth century, UH

2724
02:47:57,559 --> 02:48:01,959
with UH the advent of strategic arm not just not

2725
02:48:02,000 --> 02:48:04,399
just nuclear weapons, which of course didn't exist yet. But

2726
02:48:05,440 --> 02:48:07,440
there was not a full understanding in any four of

2727
02:48:07,479 --> 02:48:13,159
you of how strategic arms could be applied. But and

2728
02:48:13,200 --> 02:48:15,920
then what the what the outcome would be in military terms,

2729
02:48:16,440 --> 02:48:21,319
But it was understood that the battlefield techniques were going

2730
02:48:21,360 --> 02:48:28,360
to be able to create absolutely devastating catastrophes for the

2731
02:48:28,399 --> 02:48:32,079
state under assault if they did not have any countermeasures. Okay,

2732
02:48:32,120 --> 02:48:36,000
I mean, so what I'm getting at is that A

2733
02:48:36,520 --> 02:48:40,920
if Germany had remained dormant and just kind of demurred

2734
02:48:41,159 --> 02:48:47,120
to Soviet demands, the Soviets not, wouldn't I think the

2735
02:48:47,159 --> 02:48:49,239
Soviet I got out in my mind, the Soviets plan

2736
02:48:49,360 --> 02:48:51,079
to assault Germany. And we're gonna get into that in

2737
02:48:51,120 --> 02:48:53,600
a minute. But even if the Soviets had did not,

2738
02:48:54,879 --> 02:48:57,239
just by virtue of the fact that they would have

2739
02:48:57,280 --> 02:49:03,239
been so exponentially more powerful, then UH, their next strongest

2740
02:49:03,280 --> 02:49:06,399
strategic rival in Germany like it wouldn't have It wouldn't

2741
02:49:06,399 --> 02:49:09,719
have mattered. They would have, you know, in in power

2742
02:49:09,760 --> 02:49:14,760
political terms, Moscow would have dictated what was going to

2743
02:49:14,799 --> 02:49:20,280
transpire and in Europe and in Europe's orbit. Now I

2744
02:49:20,360 --> 02:49:22,760
rely a lot on direct testimonies. I think people have

2745
02:49:22,879 --> 02:49:26,360
noticed now I've been told that that's a conceptual bias

2746
02:49:26,399 --> 02:49:30,639
of mine because I was a lawyer. I don't think

2747
02:49:30,639 --> 02:49:35,879
that's the case. I think that direct testimony is one

2748
02:49:35,920 --> 02:49:39,799
of the only ways we can get inside the minds

2749
02:49:39,799 --> 02:49:45,200
of people who uh lived in these apocable moments, and

2750
02:49:45,959 --> 02:49:51,479
it's in in in in and understand what their perceptions were. Okay,

2751
02:49:53,280 --> 02:49:56,159
obviously there's an issue of how credible the declarant is.

2752
02:49:56,200 --> 02:50:00,159
But if you're discriminating, and I think over time, when

2753
02:50:00,200 --> 02:50:03,200
you see patterns and it kind of quorum emerges of

2754
02:50:03,879 --> 02:50:09,959
what people and in governmental roles thought, we can get

2755
02:50:10,000 --> 02:50:14,639
to the truth of what perception was. And uh. Jachim

2756
02:50:14,719 --> 02:50:20,360
Hoffmann he corralled. He's a German historian, very heterotics historian.

2757
02:50:22,000 --> 02:50:25,159
I highly recommend a book he wrote called Stalin's World Extermination.

2758
02:50:25,360 --> 02:50:29,760
But in as far as out that book are a

2759
02:50:29,799 --> 02:50:34,639
lot there's a lot of testimony from people in the

2760
02:50:34,680 --> 02:50:40,360
Soviet government and the Soviet military apparatus and people from

2761
02:50:40,360 --> 02:50:43,719
old walks, ok. Everybody from apparatchicks who are primarily political

2762
02:50:43,719 --> 02:50:47,000
commissars that you know, officers and n c os and

2763
02:50:47,040 --> 02:50:50,520
the Red Army to people who were defectors to the

2764
02:50:50,520 --> 02:50:58,639
Dermot and it's there's a basic agreement here. There's a

2765
02:50:58,680 --> 02:51:01,959
woman named I'm probably butchering this pronunciation. I know, I

2766
02:51:02,000 --> 02:51:05,600
always add that caveat, and I'm sorry if that's the

2767
02:51:05,639 --> 02:51:12,840
case once again, But a woman named Manda Vassilevska. She

2768
02:51:12,959 --> 02:51:15,559
was the chairwoman of what was called Euphemistic Lee, the

2769
02:51:15,680 --> 02:51:19,559
Union of Polish Patriots. Now, this was the expat Communist

2770
02:51:19,639 --> 02:51:23,079
League in the USSR okay, after the during the Polish

2771
02:51:23,079 --> 02:51:25,360
military junta and after Okay, and like a lot of

2772
02:51:25,360 --> 02:51:26,959
these people went on to forum kind of the core

2773
02:51:27,040 --> 02:51:34,159
of the you know, warsaw pat client state after the war. Now,

2774
02:51:34,879 --> 02:51:37,479
what she attested to do in nineteen sixty four, I

2775
02:51:37,559 --> 02:51:41,200
believe the first historian she disclosed this too is Robert Conquest.

2776
02:51:41,319 --> 02:51:44,040
But it's become You'll find this in a lot of

2777
02:51:44,040 --> 02:51:48,639
different treatments, Okay, not just Reviusioness treatments. But her statement

2778
02:51:48,799 --> 02:51:54,239
was this about the orientation on the eve of Barbarossa

2779
02:51:54,559 --> 02:52:01,200
within Moscow. She said, I remember that we communists regardless.

2780
02:52:01,319 --> 02:52:03,520
Speaker 1: Go ahead no, no, no, no.

2781
02:52:03,639 --> 02:52:06,760
Speaker 2: Because I remember that we communists, regardless of the regardless

2782
02:52:06,799 --> 02:52:09,920
of the official position of the Soviet government, we were

2783
02:52:10,000 --> 02:52:14,000
all of the opinion that the apparent friendly attitude towards

2784
02:52:14,079 --> 02:52:17,239
Germany was only a tactic of the Soviet government, that

2785
02:52:17,360 --> 02:52:22,760
in reality the situation was entirely different. After all, I

2786
02:52:22,799 --> 02:52:24,360
wanted to not forget that it was already clear to

2787
02:52:24,440 --> 02:52:26,920
us even at that time that a German Soviet war

2788
02:52:27,040 --> 02:52:30,319
was approaching. Regardless of the official announcement. We believed the

2789
02:52:30,360 --> 02:52:35,159
war was drawing near, and we waited for it every day.

2790
02:52:36,040 --> 02:52:38,040
Stalin told me at that time there would be war

2791
02:52:38,079 --> 02:52:41,399
with the Germans sooner or later. This means that indeed,

2792
02:52:41,440 --> 02:52:43,399
at that time I already had the assurance of in

2793
02:52:43,440 --> 02:52:46,040
confirmation from the highest authority that we were right to

2794
02:52:46,120 --> 02:52:57,920
expect war. There's uh, like I said, there's there's I'm

2795
02:52:57,920 --> 02:53:05,280
not gonna endlessly relay all these testimonials, but you know,

2796
02:53:05,360 --> 02:53:12,879
like I said, there is there's probably half a dozen declarations,

2797
02:53:13,120 --> 02:53:18,280
you know, from everybody, from men in in Molotov's orbit

2798
02:53:18,360 --> 02:53:20,360
to uh. You know, like I said, some of the

2799
02:53:20,360 --> 02:53:24,600
defectors from a who went on a servant was called

2800
02:53:24,600 --> 02:53:29,639
the Vlassov Army. You know, these were not This was

2801
02:53:29,680 --> 02:53:32,520
a very diverse couterie of people, okay, And it's obviously

2802
02:53:32,600 --> 02:53:36,760
not of itself. I mean, it's not absolutely persuasive. But

2803
02:53:36,799 --> 02:53:40,680
what I think is uh, what I think is uh

2804
02:53:42,479 --> 02:53:48,399
indisputable in terms of its persuasive weight, is what deployments

2805
02:53:48,520 --> 02:53:51,239
were as in June twenty second, ninety forty one. All right,

2806
02:53:51,280 --> 02:53:56,239
the date of Barbarosa, Okay, but the Red Army had

2807
02:53:56,280 --> 02:53:59,639
deployed on June twenty second, nineteen forty one, in authensive

2808
02:53:59,680 --> 02:54:04,159
depoint on the western frontier and deployed in depth, you know,

2809
02:54:05,200 --> 02:54:11,079
behind that front. It was twenty four thousand tanks, over

2810
02:54:11,159 --> 02:54:13,799
one thousand, eight hundred of which were T thirty fours,

2811
02:54:13,840 --> 02:54:17,120
which I believe everybody stipulates was the best all around

2812
02:54:17,319 --> 02:54:21,559
tank platform in the war. Fifteen hundred those T thirty

2813
02:54:21,600 --> 02:54:24,239
fours are manufactured in the first six months of nineteen

2814
02:54:24,239 --> 02:54:29,079
forty one. Okay. That's an incredible production schedule, frankly for

2815
02:54:29,120 --> 02:54:33,719
the time. Okay, they had twenty three thousand, two hundred

2816
02:54:33,760 --> 02:54:40,680
and forty five military aircraft amassed since nineteen thirty eight,

2817
02:54:40,840 --> 02:54:44,239
and that's incredible too close to four thousand of which

2818
02:54:44,280 --> 02:54:48,920
we have latest design and inarguably not obsolescent. Okay, they

2819
02:54:48,959 --> 02:54:52,000
have one hundred and forty eight thousand artillery pieces. They

2820
02:54:52,040 --> 02:54:55,959
had close to three hundred submarines, you know, which is uh.

2821
02:54:56,159 --> 02:54:59,799
I realized that. I realized the distinction between offensive and

2822
02:54:59,879 --> 02:55:02,799
d defensive wars is dubious. And we'll get into that

2823
02:55:02,799 --> 02:55:05,000
a little bit too, But I don't think anybody can

2824
02:55:05,040 --> 02:55:08,440
claim that submarines are are a defensive measure.

2825
02:55:08,520 --> 02:55:09,879
Speaker 1: I mean I.

2826
02:55:13,680 --> 02:55:17,639
Speaker 2: And towards that end, the the T thirty even the

2827
02:55:17,680 --> 02:55:21,239
Soviet models that were viewed as inferior. And again I'm

2828
02:55:21,239 --> 02:55:24,600
not a military expert at all, and it's not like

2829
02:55:24,680 --> 02:55:28,680
fort but platforms was like the T thirty five and

2830
02:55:28,719 --> 02:55:33,200
the T twenty six, they were specifically designed as countermeasures

2831
02:55:33,239 --> 02:55:36,079
the earlier German pans Or models, and they were categorically

2832
02:55:36,200 --> 02:55:40,319
categorically superior to the pans Are three, if not superior

2833
02:55:40,360 --> 02:55:45,159
to the pans Are four. And they all had heavy

2834
02:55:45,280 --> 02:55:52,040
armament that was tailored to kill rmock tanks, you know,

2835
02:55:52,159 --> 02:55:57,520
I mean this, this is why they were developed. The

2836
02:55:57,559 --> 02:56:02,399
total arm strength in the weeks immediately prior May ninety

2837
02:56:02,399 --> 02:56:06,280
forty one. The so we said three hundred and three divisions.

2838
02:56:08,000 --> 02:56:11,360
Two hundred and fifty eight of those infantry, armored artillery,

2839
02:56:11,399 --> 02:56:17,360
in other words, ground common element were raided offensively deployed

2840
02:56:17,559 --> 02:56:20,639
on the frontier against the German Reich. They were supported

2841
02:56:20,680 --> 02:56:24,120
by one hundred and sixty five flight regiments mobilized and

2842
02:56:24,159 --> 02:56:35,120
direct support of the ground element. The General Staff reported

2843
02:56:35,680 --> 02:56:37,760
after the onset of hostilities the General Stanf of the

2844
02:56:37,799 --> 02:56:43,959
Red Army. It is this is August ninety forty one,

2845
02:56:44,680 --> 02:56:46,879
even with even with the losses incurred, which words were

2846
02:56:46,920 --> 02:56:49,719
catastrophic in the opening weeks of Barbaros. To keep that

2847
02:56:49,799 --> 02:56:53,639
in mind, so he forces and beings were between three

2848
02:56:53,680 --> 02:56:59,040
hundred and thirty and three hundred and fifty divisions. They

2849
02:56:59,079 --> 02:57:03,719
were facing off again, it's just over eighteen hundred non

2850
02:57:03,760 --> 02:57:07,959
obseoblescent German tanks and self repelled the salt guns and

2851
02:57:08,000 --> 02:57:11,559
the loof through essentially everything it had at the Soviet Union.

2852
02:57:12,520 --> 02:57:14,159
And we'll get into this later too, I mean the

2853
02:57:14,200 --> 02:57:15,840
German again. I don't want to get too much into

2854
02:57:15,840 --> 02:57:19,639
the nitty gritty of military hardware in minutia, but it's

2855
02:57:19,799 --> 02:57:24,719
relevant as the perception and forces and being and what

2856
02:57:24,760 --> 02:57:27,399
we can extrapolate from those forces and being to intent.

2857
02:57:29,079 --> 02:57:33,680
The Right deployed twenty five hundred common already German aircraft,

2858
02:57:33,719 --> 02:57:37,440
but overwhelmingly I mean, and then Luflafo was not did

2859
02:57:37,440 --> 02:57:40,840
not have a strategic capability. It really did not. That's

2860
02:57:40,840 --> 02:57:42,639
a other reasons by the Battle of Britain, even though

2861
02:57:42,680 --> 02:57:47,079
it's talked about in these catastrotic terms, it was nothing

2862
02:57:47,120 --> 02:57:50,520
compared to the the Area bombing raids. You know that

2863
02:57:51,200 --> 02:57:53,559
that killed tens of thousands in one day, you know,

2864
02:57:54,719 --> 02:57:58,360
of the Allies and the uh It was a completely

2865
02:57:58,399 --> 02:58:03,840
different orientation towards towards air war, and it was almost

2866
02:58:03,879 --> 02:58:15,079
exclusively dedicated to ground attack and and tactical exigencies. But

2867
02:58:15,120 --> 02:58:19,719
what I think is more significant is a Red Army doctrine.

2868
02:58:19,799 --> 02:58:21,559
I think it was in some ways, and I'm not

2869
02:58:21,559 --> 02:58:25,000
trying to be Carney, I think it was in some

2870
02:58:25,000 --> 02:58:30,159
ways as the original revolution in military affairs, the Red Army,

2871
02:58:30,639 --> 02:58:34,639
beginning with Lenin. You know, Lenin fancied himself a political soldier,

2872
02:58:34,760 --> 02:58:37,399
and he really was. He wasn't just you know, some

2873
02:58:38,799 --> 02:58:42,000
He wasn't just some partisan type who kind of declared

2874
02:58:42,040 --> 02:58:46,879
himself a general or something. He had great attitude for

2875
02:58:47,000 --> 02:58:52,639
certain kind of warfare and what became Red Army doctrine.

2876
02:58:53,680 --> 02:58:58,159
You know, from nineteen seventeen eighteen, the revolutionary days, you know,

2877
02:58:58,239 --> 02:59:02,200
until the last days of the Civil Union came from Lenin,

2878
02:59:04,079 --> 02:59:07,159
and uh Lenin declared that, you know, the Red Army

2879
02:59:07,840 --> 02:59:11,559
was h it's the function of the Red Army was

2880
02:59:11,559 --> 02:59:13,760
was was it was it was literally the armed element

2881
02:59:13,879 --> 02:59:17,159
of the party, you know, and it's its purpose was

2882
02:59:17,200 --> 02:59:22,079
the was to bring about socialist uh aims by by

2883
02:59:22,200 --> 02:59:25,280
armed force. That's the only reason they existed, you know,

2884
02:59:25,360 --> 02:59:29,719
because within the Marxist paradigm, you know, warfare is just

2885
02:59:29,799 --> 02:59:32,120
you know, what means by which capitalists other profit or

2886
02:59:32,159 --> 02:59:36,799
sustain their dominance or or or or sacrifice you know,

2887
02:59:36,879 --> 02:59:41,360
surplus labor and and lump and proletariat elements that you

2888
02:59:41,399 --> 02:59:46,799
know can't can't be disposed of in more profitable ways.

2889
02:59:46,840 --> 02:59:53,000
So congruous with that particular claim about history. Uh. Anyway,

2890
02:59:53,040 --> 02:59:56,959
you know, the the the only correct use of of

2891
02:59:57,319 --> 03:00:00,360
a standing army would be to implement revolutionary aims and

2892
03:00:00,399 --> 03:00:07,239
to aggressively export those aims towards that end. What became

2893
03:00:08,200 --> 03:00:15,520
official Soviet military doctrine theory rather would translated doctrine, was

2894
03:00:15,600 --> 03:00:18,040
the assumption that modern war is just no longer declared,

2895
03:00:18,520 --> 03:00:21,000
you know not. Not only is this a capitalist contrivance, and

2896
03:00:21,079 --> 03:00:24,239
why why why should we participate in these fictions you know,

2897
03:00:24,319 --> 03:00:28,239
relating to you know, treaties and the appearance of lawfulness,

2898
03:00:28,239 --> 03:00:31,920
but you know, the the nature of of of of

2899
03:00:32,079 --> 03:00:38,520
combined arms and technology driven warfare, Surprise has a paralyzing effect.

2900
03:00:38,600 --> 03:00:41,079
That's what the Red Army Field Duty Regulation is declared.

2901
03:00:41,079 --> 03:00:44,840
In the ninety thirty nine viition, it said literally, surprise

2902
03:00:45,000 --> 03:00:48,159
is a paralyzing effect on the enemy. Therefore, all military

2903
03:00:48,200 --> 03:00:50,399
action must be carried out with the greatest concealment and

2904
03:00:50,440 --> 03:00:56,399
greatest rapidity. And if you want to know, if you want,

2905
03:00:57,399 --> 03:01:01,120
if you want an example about this train lated the doctrine.

2906
03:01:01,799 --> 03:01:04,799
Both the Soviet attack on Poland and the Soviet assault

2907
03:01:04,799 --> 03:01:08,000
on Finland in nineteen thirty nine, there was no declaration

2908
03:01:08,040 --> 03:01:10,920
of war. There was no communication of a diplomatic nature.

2909
03:01:11,840 --> 03:01:15,280
There wasn't even an announcement by which you know, uh,

2910
03:01:15,399 --> 03:01:19,520
Finisher Polish, you know, representatives were banished from Moscow or something.

2911
03:01:19,760 --> 03:01:24,879
It was just a massive assault, bolt from the blue. Okay,

2912
03:01:25,879 --> 03:01:28,760
so there you go. I mean, this wasn't something that

2913
03:01:28,799 --> 03:01:31,239
was put to paper as you know by you know,

2914
03:01:31,319 --> 03:01:35,920
fevered revolutionary types, but didn't have any real world precedents.

2915
03:01:35,959 --> 03:01:39,440
So what everybody learned real quick is that when the

2916
03:01:39,479 --> 03:01:42,719
Red Army assaults, it is a bolt from the blue assault.

2917
03:01:43,040 --> 03:01:46,760
You know, they there's not gonna be early warning. You know,

2918
03:01:46,799 --> 03:01:49,879
there's not There's not gonna be a formal declaration. There's

2919
03:01:49,879 --> 03:01:53,000
not gonna be some community, some cryptic communicat even that

2920
03:01:53,200 --> 03:01:56,280
you know says there's no longer good offices between its Diplomatically,

2921
03:01:56,600 --> 03:01:58,120
you know, you're gonna know you're at war with them

2922
03:01:58,159 --> 03:02:01,600
because they're gonna be assaulting in numbers across your border.

2923
03:02:01,920 --> 03:02:09,399
You know the way, Iacham Hoffman translated a lot of

2924
03:02:09,399 --> 03:02:12,879
this literature, not just in the field duty regulations, but

2925
03:02:13,239 --> 03:02:20,079
from other official dispatches of the Red Army High Command.

2926
03:02:20,680 --> 03:02:23,719
And I don't speak or re Russian, but missus Herr

2927
03:02:23,719 --> 03:02:28,079
Hoffman certainly did. He's dead now, And what he translated

2928
03:02:28,200 --> 03:02:33,239
was these five points. The first was the Red Army

2929
03:02:33,280 --> 03:02:37,399
is an offensive army, the most offensively oriented of all armies,

2930
03:02:37,680 --> 03:02:42,440
them speaking of themselves, always conduct the Red Army will

2931
03:02:42,440 --> 03:02:46,120
always conduct war on enemy territory with fewest possible friendly

2932
03:02:46,159 --> 03:02:49,559
casualties and it will always aim to annihilate the enemy

2933
03:02:49,559 --> 03:02:55,319
completely politically and militarily. The proletariat in the hostile country

2934
03:02:55,440 --> 03:02:58,360
is always a potential ally of Soviet power, and they

2935
03:02:58,399 --> 03:03:00,639
will support the struggle of the Red Army through volts

2936
03:03:00,639 --> 03:03:02,520
in the rear of the enemy army. And this will

2937
03:03:02,520 --> 03:03:07,680
be called this must be cultivated war preparations or preparations

2938
03:03:07,680 --> 03:03:11,680
for attack. Defensive measurests serve solely to protect preparations for

2939
03:03:11,760 --> 03:03:15,559
attack and the execution of an offensive attack and the

2940
03:03:15,559 --> 03:03:21,520
facing direction. And finally, the Red Army must at all

2941
03:03:21,520 --> 03:03:25,920
costs prelude preclude any possibility of the penetration Apostle forces

2942
03:03:26,920 --> 03:03:31,799
into the territory of the USSR. Now again, this isn't

2943
03:03:31,840 --> 03:03:35,040
just minutia of interest to you know, military sociologists or

2944
03:03:35,079 --> 03:03:39,799
people who who have to study the Soviet Union of history.

2945
03:03:40,520 --> 03:03:44,920
If this is your declared military doctrine taken together with

2946
03:03:45,520 --> 03:03:51,479
all these other variables, I mean, what how probable is it?

2947
03:03:51,639 --> 03:03:54,520
How credible is it this claim that you know, the

2948
03:03:54,559 --> 03:03:59,479
Soviet Union was this kinna fearful garrison state that will

2949
03:03:59,559 --> 03:04:01,840
just we was waiting for the Germans to attack, but

2950
03:04:01,959 --> 03:04:04,440
hoping they would not. I mean, that would never happen.

2951
03:04:07,159 --> 03:04:09,440
I know this is the cliche, and I it's not

2952
03:04:09,680 --> 03:04:13,319
the cliche because it bears out somewhat in truth. Operationally,

2953
03:04:14,120 --> 03:04:16,760
the reputation of the Prussians and later the Germans was

2954
03:04:16,799 --> 03:04:19,879
that they jumped the gun and assault too soon. The repute,

2955
03:04:19,920 --> 03:04:22,719
the cliche. A reputation of the other Russians and later

2956
03:04:22,799 --> 03:04:26,159
the Soviets was that they wait too long. And I'd

2957
03:04:26,200 --> 03:04:29,760
argue this bore out in the Ukraine situation, but that's

2958
03:04:29,760 --> 03:04:34,639
not what we're talking about. The claim, basically of court

2959
03:04:34,760 --> 03:04:37,879
history is that you know, Stalin was some sort of

2960
03:04:38,360 --> 03:04:40,840
you know, he may have been a bad man, and

2961
03:04:40,840 --> 03:04:43,760
he may have been an intriguer in a machiavellian brute,

2962
03:04:44,200 --> 03:04:48,200
but he somehow had no designs on aggressive conquest of

2963
03:04:48,239 --> 03:04:53,159
Europe despite these you know that, despite this, these massive

2964
03:04:53,200 --> 03:04:56,040
slaughs of territory, that the Soviet Union is similar with hostility,

2965
03:04:56,360 --> 03:04:58,040
you know, the claim is that he was somehow fearful

2966
03:04:58,079 --> 03:05:02,680
of Adolf Hitler, both as as historical personage ads and

2967
03:05:02,920 --> 03:05:05,200
as well as you know, fearful of Germany, despite the

2968
03:05:05,200 --> 03:05:08,840
fact that it was it was it was grossly disadvantaged

2969
03:05:08,920 --> 03:05:12,159
in terms of you know, forces and being and material

2970
03:05:13,559 --> 03:05:17,399
assets and resources. But and also most kind of incredibly

2971
03:05:17,479 --> 03:05:20,079
is the claim that well, you know, yeah, maybe the

2972
03:05:20,120 --> 03:05:22,399
Soviets were anticipating war, but they were just waiting to

2973
03:05:22,399 --> 03:05:26,719
be attacked. I mean that that's totally at odds with

2974
03:05:26,719 --> 03:05:31,559
with not just their stated doctrine, but with the entire organization,

2975
03:05:31,639 --> 03:05:35,399
organizational structure, and ideological culture the Soviet Union at the time.

2976
03:05:35,479 --> 03:05:39,959
It's say nothing of their deployment. And again I don't sorry,

2977
03:05:40,360 --> 03:05:43,079
I don't want to get too deeply into military minutia,

2978
03:05:44,760 --> 03:05:47,120
not because it's not interesting, but it's first of all,

2979
03:05:47,120 --> 03:05:49,920
I'm not the guy to do that. It's not my wheelhouse.

2980
03:05:51,360 --> 03:05:58,000
But also it's uh, it's uh, it does have to

2981
03:05:58,040 --> 03:06:01,879
be said. Though, even accounting for that, you know what

2982
03:06:01,959 --> 03:06:05,840
the reasons the Soviets were so devastated in the early

2983
03:06:06,319 --> 03:06:10,360
weeks of of Barbarossa. I mean, yeah, they had problems

2984
03:06:10,360 --> 03:06:14,520
with command and control, you know, they they had uh,

2985
03:06:15,959 --> 03:06:18,280
they had uh, they had some officers, they had some

2986
03:06:18,360 --> 03:06:22,200
general officers who owed their role to the political reliability

2987
03:06:22,280 --> 03:06:24,879
rather than the aptitude. I mean, yes, the Behrmacht and

2988
03:06:24,879 --> 03:06:27,959
the BAF and SS were incredibly tough, incredibly game, and

2989
03:06:27,959 --> 03:06:31,799
incredibly brutal but the the Right Army wasn't was an

2990
03:06:31,840 --> 03:06:36,360
authensive deployment. They they weren't arrayed to absorb a heavy

2991
03:06:37,360 --> 03:06:41,719
you know, killer combined arms blow across a massive front

2992
03:06:41,719 --> 03:06:44,559
from the Behrmax. They just were not, you know, and

2993
03:06:44,600 --> 03:06:46,440
that's one of the reasons has happened. I mean, if

2994
03:06:46,479 --> 03:06:49,319
the Soviets were, you know, hunkered down and dug in

2995
03:06:49,319 --> 03:06:53,559
and and and and fearfully awaiting a Vermont assault, I mean,

2996
03:06:53,559 --> 03:06:57,399
we know how the Russians deploy when that's what they're anticipating.

2997
03:06:57,879 --> 03:07:01,239
And they deployed like they did at Curse, and uh,

2998
03:07:02,079 --> 03:07:06,040
It's it's textbook deep battle and it's devastating to the

2999
03:07:06,079 --> 03:07:08,920
attack er, you know. I mean that's you don't need

3000
03:07:08,959 --> 03:07:11,719
to be a military man or or some kind of

3001
03:07:11,840 --> 03:07:14,440
armchair general to perceive this, uh.

3002
03:07:16,159 --> 03:07:19,000
Speaker 1: You know, and and and you could have saw some

3003
03:07:19,040 --> 03:07:20,840
of that from history. I mean, just look at the

3004
03:07:20,879 --> 03:07:21,799
Spanish Civil War.

3005
03:07:22,680 --> 03:07:25,360
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

3006
03:07:25,639 --> 03:07:31,319
Speaker 1: Franco's forces were that were killing Commis, the Communists were

3007
03:07:31,920 --> 03:07:37,120
killing everyone. They're they're flaying priests and nuns. I mean

3008
03:07:37,120 --> 03:07:43,280
they are basically, they're not while they're trying to take over,

3009
03:07:43,360 --> 03:07:45,280
they're also trying to punish.

3010
03:07:46,159 --> 03:07:51,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely awful stuff was uh was carried out. Yeah

3011
03:07:51,600 --> 03:07:54,000
that's not not to go too often a tangent, but

3012
03:07:54,000 --> 03:07:56,200
that's one of the things that really stiffened world opinion,

3013
03:07:56,239 --> 03:07:59,840
particularly in Europe against them, you know, the communists or

3014
03:07:59,840 --> 03:08:03,840
you mystial laws in Spain. It's because the it sounds

3015
03:08:03,879 --> 03:08:07,479
like it sounds like propaganda stuff, but the nuns really

3016
03:08:07,520 --> 03:08:11,079
were being reaped, and you know, the UH. You had

3017
03:08:11,079 --> 03:08:16,840
these cheka types going into the cemeteries where clergy people

3018
03:08:16,840 --> 03:08:20,159
were interred and defacing the remains, I mean, like discuffling

3019
03:08:20,239 --> 03:08:24,879
stuff that would only occur to somebody if they were

3020
03:08:24,920 --> 03:08:27,879
animated by a real hatred of of UH, of the

3021
03:08:28,000 --> 03:08:31,440
national culture. And yeah, so there's not I mean, that's

3022
03:08:31,479 --> 03:08:33,559
that's a hugely important point. I mean, not only as

3023
03:08:33,559 --> 03:08:37,120
we were talking about earlier, not only was with the Germans,

3024
03:08:37,159 --> 03:08:39,879
not not only was communism and revolutionary communism not this

3025
03:08:39,959 --> 03:08:41,920
remote thing that they only knew of kind of as

3026
03:08:41,959 --> 03:08:46,239
this abstraction that might threaten them. You know, they these

3027
03:08:46,280 --> 03:08:51,440
these guys in the party is like like like Rosenberg

3028
03:08:51,840 --> 03:08:56,000
and like shooting a Richter who fell at at Munich

3029
03:08:56,040 --> 03:08:59,319
in twenty three, Like these guys basically were refugees from

3030
03:08:59,360 --> 03:09:03,120
the Baltic because they were being ethnically cleansed. You know. Uh.

3031
03:09:03,239 --> 03:09:07,000
These guys who constituted the kind of backbone of the

3032
03:09:06,600 --> 03:09:10,079
the most dedicated Free Corps elements that you know, ended

3033
03:09:10,159 --> 03:09:12,360
up taking up the National Socialist banner and the ESA.

3034
03:09:12,520 --> 03:09:16,159
They they they fought, They fought the KPD in the street,

3035
03:09:16,239 --> 03:09:19,879
and they fought against the UH, the UH, the Munich

3036
03:09:19,920 --> 03:09:23,920
Soviet and yeah, the the UH, the war in Spain.

3037
03:09:24,000 --> 03:09:27,000
I mean, it wasn't some mystery as to how how

3038
03:09:27,040 --> 03:09:30,520
the Red Army fights, you know. I mean they these uh,

3039
03:09:30,719 --> 03:09:35,639
these Spanish republicans, they were you know, they they were communists.

3040
03:09:35,639 --> 03:09:40,120
They weren't republicans they uh, no matter what uh. You know,

3041
03:09:40,200 --> 03:09:43,040
some of the literature was that UH was promoted in

3042
03:09:43,280 --> 03:09:46,639
English speaking newspapers and things, or English language newspapers. But

3043
03:09:46,719 --> 03:09:50,479
the they were they were trained and outfitted by UH,

3044
03:09:51,520 --> 03:09:54,440
by Czechis and by Red Army officers who cut their teeth,

3045
03:09:54,479 --> 03:09:57,399
you know, UH fighting Zarists and things. You know. It's

3046
03:09:57,399 --> 03:10:00,479
there wasn't as big mystery as the as to how

3047
03:10:00,920 --> 03:10:03,479
the Red Army fights and what their what their doctrine was,

3048
03:10:03,559 --> 03:10:05,840
and the fact that their doctrine to your point, you know,

3049
03:10:06,120 --> 03:10:11,520
ideological commitment was wasn't separable from their tantaical orientation. But

3050
03:10:11,680 --> 03:10:19,639
it uh, i'll i'll uh, I'll wrap up soon and realize, uh,

3051
03:10:21,520 --> 03:10:27,079
we're coming up on an hour. But the something that

3052
03:10:27,200 --> 03:10:37,239
uh something uh two that I think Mihersheiner got into

3053
03:10:37,280 --> 03:10:41,200
this in one of his more recent books. I like

3054
03:10:41,280 --> 03:10:43,280
mirhershem right, I don't know the man, but I mean

3055
03:10:43,319 --> 03:10:46,159
I like his work product, and I but I think

3056
03:10:46,200 --> 03:10:47,879
he's I think some of his stuff is kind of

3057
03:10:47,879 --> 03:10:51,559
middle brow, deliberate leagues. He's trying to appeal to a

3058
03:10:51,840 --> 03:10:58,639
more mass audience than some political scientists are. But he

3059
03:10:59,680 --> 03:11:03,319
there's some pretty heavy stuff even that said in some

3060
03:11:03,360 --> 03:11:06,120
of his even in some of his more polemical works.

3061
03:11:06,120 --> 03:11:10,000
And one of his books is called Why Leaders Lie.

3062
03:11:10,040 --> 03:11:13,920
And you made the point that, you know, states that

3063
03:11:13,959 --> 03:11:19,200
are regardless, they're political, regardless, they're formal political apparatus, whatever

3064
03:11:19,200 --> 03:11:23,600
it's declared structure is whether it holds itself out as

3065
03:11:23,639 --> 03:11:25,680
a democracy. You know, whether you're talking about, you know,

3066
03:11:25,760 --> 03:11:29,799
a fascist state of old, whether you're talking about you know,

3067
03:11:30,360 --> 03:11:33,239
when he's retrobde Arab monarchies, whatever, gonna state, you're talking

3068
03:11:33,239 --> 03:11:39,040
about states that are approaching states that are miired in

3069
03:11:39,040 --> 03:11:47,440
in in existential emergencies, you know, conditions approaching out and

3070
03:11:47,479 --> 03:11:50,440
out war, or states that are actually mired in conditions

3071
03:11:50,479 --> 03:11:53,840
of total war. One thing leaders really don't do is

3072
03:11:53,879 --> 03:11:59,280
just tell lies publicly or to their where you can

3073
03:11:59,280 --> 03:12:04,079
particularly upon the truth of the matter asserted, is when

3074
03:12:04,079 --> 03:12:07,079
they're talking to people who conta control group rather than

3075
03:12:07,120 --> 03:12:10,479
military or the political apparatus. Because they tell lies in

3076
03:12:10,520 --> 03:12:15,120
that circumstance, not only could it lead to great consequences

3077
03:12:15,120 --> 03:12:21,239
of in terms of existential nancial security outcomes, but it

3078
03:12:21,319 --> 03:12:24,799
also means that, you know, it's it's self defeating, you know,

3079
03:12:24,879 --> 03:12:29,280
because a man who's not a man who's not going

3080
03:12:29,319 --> 03:12:33,399
to tell the truth in the life and death conditions

3081
03:12:33,200 --> 03:12:37,120
is not a man who's fit for leadership. So you

3082
03:12:37,159 --> 03:12:42,239
can rely pretty much on what Hitler and Stalin said

3083
03:12:42,440 --> 03:12:44,840
on the Eva Barbarosa, and certainly when it was under

3084
03:12:44,879 --> 03:12:50,639
way and on May fifth, nineteen forty one. I don't

3085
03:12:50,680 --> 03:12:53,479
know exactly how this was organized, and I'm sure some

3086
03:12:53,520 --> 03:12:55,680
of Russian fellas or ladies who are listening if they

3087
03:12:55,719 --> 03:12:59,120
want to weigh in in the comments later. I believe

3088
03:12:59,600 --> 03:13:04,000
there was a unitary military academy in the early Soviet

3089
03:13:04,079 --> 03:13:09,200
days that everybody went to. Okay, whether they were navy

3090
03:13:09,239 --> 03:13:11,520
or whether they were army, I don't know that for certain.

3091
03:13:12,639 --> 03:13:15,879
So whatever the whatever the whatever, the Red Army Military

3092
03:13:15,920 --> 03:13:21,559
Academy was where army officers went. Stalin appeared to much

3093
03:13:21,600 --> 03:13:25,520
fanfare at the graduation ceremony on May fifth, ninety forty one.

3094
03:13:26,600 --> 03:13:28,399
And obviously that's only a few days after you know,

3095
03:13:28,440 --> 03:13:31,440
May Day. It was a big, you know, gala day

3096
03:13:31,559 --> 03:13:37,360
for communists the UH. So Stalin addresses a speech to

3097
03:13:37,440 --> 03:13:40,680
this UH, to this graduating class. Now mind you, it

3098
03:13:40,760 --> 03:13:43,120
was this is all like young officers about to get

3099
03:13:43,120 --> 03:13:46,440
the commission and and UH and a bunch of party

3100
03:13:46,479 --> 03:13:50,159
hanchos and generals. So it's not it's not properly secret,

3101
03:13:50,239 --> 03:13:53,120
but it's not Stalin's not, you know, addressing you know,

3102
03:13:53,159 --> 03:13:56,120
the Soviet people when he's certainly not going on the radio.

3103
03:13:57,040 --> 03:14:00,680
He stated that these men were a strike history, these

3104
03:14:00,680 --> 03:14:06,239
young officer UH graduates, because the because the right Army

3105
03:14:06,280 --> 03:14:09,840
doction was now to quote abandoned defensive tactics and adopt

3106
03:14:09,920 --> 03:14:13,280
the military policy of attack operations. And he came back

3107
03:14:13,280 --> 03:14:15,399
to this point again and again throughout the speech that

3108
03:14:15,959 --> 03:14:17,799
you know, you are the spear point, as it were,

3109
03:14:17,799 --> 03:14:22,680
of the party, and you know we're you know, we

3110
03:14:22,680 --> 03:14:26,719
we were we are exclusively of revolutionary apparatus. You know,

3111
03:14:26,760 --> 03:14:29,639
we are not the defensive army. You know, so you

3112
03:14:29,719 --> 03:14:33,319
mentor astrite history because you're literally gonna, you know, bring

3113
03:14:33,440 --> 03:14:37,079
uh you're you're gonna bring socialism to the planet essentially,

3114
03:14:37,440 --> 03:14:40,040
you know. And uh, this is not hyperbole. It is

3115
03:14:40,159 --> 03:14:43,120
not you know, uh, some kind of motto that appears

3116
03:14:43,159 --> 03:14:45,719
under the heraldic hammer and sickle in the Polar Bureau.

3117
03:14:45,840 --> 03:14:48,319
I mean this, this is something that was taking very seriously,

3118
03:14:49,159 --> 03:14:55,000
you know, and this, uh, this, uh, this was really validated.

3119
03:14:55,079 --> 03:14:59,680
And I'll wrap up with this kind of final testimony.

3120
03:15:00,079 --> 03:15:05,479
And again forgive me if I'm butchering the name uh Zilinkov,

3121
03:15:06,079 --> 03:15:11,479
I believe the pronunciation g and Zillnkov. He was a

3122
03:15:11,520 --> 03:15:15,600
Communist Party official of some prominence. He rose pretty rapidly

3123
03:15:15,600 --> 03:15:20,200
in the hierarchy. He became a commissar in the Red Army.

3124
03:15:22,000 --> 03:15:24,360
He then became commander in chief of the thirty second

3125
03:15:24,479 --> 03:15:30,319
Army on the ground, and finally he ended up defecting

3126
03:15:31,879 --> 03:15:35,079
to the Wehrmacht and he served with the Vlastov army.

3127
03:15:35,200 --> 03:15:38,360
Vlastov was a lieutenant. I believe he was equivalent of

3128
03:15:38,399 --> 03:15:41,719
lieutenant in general. But the point is he he was

3129
03:15:41,760 --> 03:15:45,239
a big defector, and that's there's some hardline Orthodox people

3130
03:15:45,280 --> 03:15:49,719
who consider him a hero and almost a sanely figure. Obviously,

3131
03:15:51,159 --> 03:15:54,440
people sympathetic to the Soviet Union of history. I consider

3132
03:15:54,520 --> 03:15:58,520
him the terrible individual and the Benedict Arnold. Other Russian

3133
03:15:58,520 --> 03:16:00,719
people have talked he see that mixed few things about him.

3134
03:16:00,719 --> 03:16:09,079
But Blasov defected. Uh Vlasov, Uh he led a kind

3135
03:16:09,079 --> 03:16:11,600
of doomed forest of Russians. So to their credit, these

3136
03:16:11,600 --> 03:16:13,959
guys are very game, and they they fought at the end,

3137
03:16:14,000 --> 03:16:17,840
and they got slaughtered to a man, and uh Blassa

3138
03:16:17,959 --> 03:16:27,399
himself was executed. But Zilenkov, who served under the the

3139
03:16:27,399 --> 03:16:30,360
committee deliberate the peoples of Russia, I believe is what

3140
03:16:30,520 --> 03:16:35,959
it translated to the the political apparatus attached to the

3141
03:16:36,040 --> 03:16:42,520
Vlasov army. He recalled that if the honestet of Barbarossa,

3142
03:16:42,920 --> 03:16:46,120
you know, June twenty second, he was in Moscow and

3143
03:16:46,159 --> 03:16:49,319
when news first arrived that war was underway, he said,

3144
03:16:49,319 --> 03:16:52,399
the rumor was, oh, of course, you know, finally, you know,

3145
03:16:52,680 --> 03:16:55,559
we've gotten the attack order. You know, how far are

3146
03:16:55,680 --> 03:16:58,840
people from Warsaw? You know, how far are they from Bucharest?

3147
03:16:59,520 --> 03:17:04,799
You know, he's without exaggeration, the impression of everybody was

3148
03:17:04,840 --> 03:17:07,760
that we have assaulted. You know, we finally you know,

3149
03:17:07,879 --> 03:17:10,920
struck the blow against the fascists. You know, we're finally

3150
03:17:11,000 --> 03:17:14,280
moving on Europe and uh, you know, God be with

3151
03:17:14,319 --> 03:17:18,680
our people, and you know, proverbially, and you know, what's

3152
03:17:18,719 --> 03:17:20,840
the news from the front, you know, or or are

3153
03:17:20,879 --> 03:17:23,360
we winning? And what kind of you know, how are

3154
03:17:23,360 --> 03:17:26,280
we advancing? I mean, I know you could say that

3155
03:17:26,920 --> 03:17:29,319
Zill and Golf, I mean, I mean the rebuttal to

3156
03:17:29,360 --> 03:17:31,200
all this is like all those guys were liars. But

3157
03:17:31,200 --> 03:17:33,159
it's like, but I look, why why why would they

3158
03:17:33,200 --> 03:17:35,200
say these things? You know, particularly a guy who knows

3159
03:17:35,239 --> 03:17:37,680
he's going to the gallows, or I mean particularly a

3160
03:17:37,719 --> 03:17:40,239
guy who had no particular truckle either you know, the

3161
03:17:40,319 --> 03:17:43,600
National Socialists or the Soviet Union that he defected from.

3162
03:17:43,600 --> 03:17:47,600
Like what I mean, maybe maybe I'm naive. I just

3163
03:17:47,840 --> 03:17:50,239
you know, maybe I'm just worldly in all the worst ways.

3164
03:17:50,280 --> 03:17:52,879
I Most of the people I know don't just like

3165
03:17:53,040 --> 03:17:56,000
lie about stuff of that kind. Of importance. Okay, I

3166
03:17:56,040 --> 03:17:58,239
mean why why would they? You know what I mean?

3167
03:17:58,319 --> 03:18:03,319
So it's I I consider it basically credible, if particularly

3168
03:18:03,399 --> 03:18:07,239
because again I this kind of testimony, it comes up

3169
03:18:07,280 --> 03:18:09,680
again and again and again, and we're not talking about

3170
03:18:09,719 --> 03:18:13,360
from capitless you know, privates in the Red Army or

3171
03:18:14,079 --> 03:18:17,200
or some you know, random villagers in Ukraine that you

3172
03:18:17,239 --> 03:18:20,319
know that Behrmont stopped and interviewed on the spot. And

3173
03:18:20,360 --> 03:18:23,719
these are general officers and the the you know, people

3174
03:18:23,719 --> 03:18:28,159
who were a political commissars of who were you know

3175
03:18:28,239 --> 03:18:31,680
it had an audience with Stalin. I mean, I can't

3176
03:18:31,719 --> 03:18:33,879
see that. I can't see that all these people are lying,

3177
03:18:34,159 --> 03:18:36,159
and that some of Stalin was just kind of trying

3178
03:18:36,200 --> 03:18:38,520
to you know, what they said somehow matches up with

3179
03:18:38,559 --> 03:18:42,000
what Lennon declared was you know, rhet army military doctrine,

3180
03:18:42,040 --> 03:18:43,639
and you know, and then but he was the only

3181
03:18:43,719 --> 03:18:47,360
kidding or then Stalin, you know what he said about

3182
03:18:47,799 --> 03:18:51,799
the Red Army being an exclusively offensive apparatus of revolution.

3183
03:18:52,000 --> 03:18:53,799
But oh he was just trying to rile up as

3184
03:18:53,879 --> 03:18:57,879
these young officers, Like that's not how reality works, you know,

3185
03:18:58,000 --> 03:19:01,120
I mean what it I hope that this wasn't too

3186
03:19:01,200 --> 03:19:06,200
dry for people. This foundation is fundamentally okay, great, No,

3187
03:19:06,399 --> 03:19:11,120
think I will get into more kinda we'll get into

3188
03:19:11,200 --> 03:19:14,399
more kind of the the the nuts and bolts of

3189
03:19:15,719 --> 03:19:17,520
the next Elso I don't want to deal with Stulfie

3190
03:19:17,520 --> 03:19:20,120
and like how the Third Reich lost in the East.

3191
03:19:20,239 --> 03:19:23,319
I'm in them, I'm in the minority. I agree with

3192
03:19:23,680 --> 03:19:27,680
the late mister Stolfie. I I believe that World War

3193
03:19:27,719 --> 03:19:31,399
Two was decided at the Gates of Moscow in December

3194
03:19:31,479 --> 03:19:33,639
forty one. And we'll get into what I mean by

3195
03:19:33,680 --> 03:19:38,360
that next time we record. And Ukraine features essentially in this,

3196
03:19:38,680 --> 03:19:42,799
in this entire story, so I think it's timely also.

3197
03:19:43,079 --> 03:19:46,360
But yeah, I I hope you're happy with what I

3198
03:19:46,440 --> 03:19:49,159
laid down, and I hope the listener has got something

3199
03:19:49,200 --> 03:19:53,000
positive out of this. I think this was really important.

3200
03:19:53,159 --> 03:19:55,799
I don't I know, we can't leave no stone unturned

3201
03:19:55,840 --> 03:19:59,479
in terms of establishing foundation, but it's essential in order

3202
03:19:59,520 --> 03:20:04,040
to present history correctly, to establish the context. So that

3203
03:20:04,159 --> 03:20:04,840
was my reasoning.

3204
03:20:05,879 --> 03:20:08,520
Speaker 1: Sounds good, so great, plugs.

3205
03:20:09,319 --> 03:20:14,040
Speaker 2: Thank you. You can find me on substack. Uh real

3206
03:20:14,399 --> 03:20:17,000
R E A. L. Thomas T H O M A

3207
03:20:17,040 --> 03:20:21,680
S seven seven seven one word dot substack dot com.

3208
03:20:22,159 --> 03:20:24,159
There's a whole lot of my long form there. That's

3209
03:20:24,159 --> 03:20:26,879
where you can access my podcast. About half of what's

3210
03:20:26,920 --> 03:20:29,559
on there is free, but for only five books a month,

3211
03:20:29,600 --> 03:20:32,079
you can access everything. And I'm always saying like, even

3212
03:20:32,120 --> 03:20:35,799
if you're a hobo, you can afford that. At some point,

3213
03:20:35,840 --> 03:20:37,879
I'm hoping I can make even more stuff free, but

3214
03:20:37,879 --> 03:20:39,760
we're not quite there yet, but it will always will

3215
03:20:39,760 --> 03:20:42,920
never be more than five bucks a month. You can

3216
03:20:42,959 --> 03:20:46,120
find me on telegram. We got a really cool gang

3217
03:20:46,159 --> 03:20:50,239
of people there who you know, just drop some serious

3218
03:20:50,280 --> 03:20:53,000
knowledge and and you know, promote their own content and

3219
03:20:53,079 --> 03:20:55,479
you know, drop their own work product. It's really a

3220
03:20:55,520 --> 03:21:00,159
great community. It's a T dot M E slash the

3221
03:21:00,600 --> 03:21:05,360
THG number seven hom as seven seven seven. Those the

3222
03:21:05,399 --> 03:21:08,719
best places define me. If you want to reach out,

3223
03:21:08,879 --> 03:21:10,879
if you want your need to reach out to me personally,

3224
03:21:11,360 --> 03:21:13,719
I behoove you to do so on telegram and DM me.

3225
03:21:14,040 --> 03:21:15,680
If for some reason you're not coming with it or

3226
03:21:15,680 --> 03:21:18,280
can't do that, you can reach out to Pete and

3227
03:21:18,319 --> 03:21:21,479
he will put you in touch with me. Oh yeah,

3228
03:21:21,520 --> 03:21:25,520
I'm always accessible and available, so no, won't ever be shy.

3229
03:21:25,719 --> 03:21:29,280
I love, you know, meeting people and conversing with people

3230
03:21:29,319 --> 03:21:32,959
on topics of mutual interest. And thank you again for

3231
03:21:33,040 --> 03:21:36,719
all the incredible support and compliments. Everybody's been very kind

3232
03:21:36,760 --> 03:21:39,000
and it's really incredible, and thank you Pete very much

3233
03:21:39,040 --> 03:21:40,280
for this ongoing series.

3234
03:21:40,639 --> 03:21:46,719
Speaker 1: No problem at all till the next time. Thanks. I

3235
03:21:46,719 --> 03:21:49,799
want to welcome everyone back to the Peking Show. We

3236
03:21:49,879 --> 03:21:52,600
continue the series. Thomas, how are you doing today?

3237
03:21:53,200 --> 03:21:56,399
Speaker 2: Very well? Thank you, Pete. I want to continue today.

3238
03:21:56,680 --> 03:21:58,239
I mean it's a huge topic, and I mean I

3239
03:21:58,280 --> 03:22:00,840
realized that in this format, you know, we don't want

3240
03:22:00,879 --> 03:22:02,959
to we don't want to just go through some kind

3241
03:22:02,959 --> 03:22:06,479
of encyclopedic reading of facts, and that wouldn't really a

3242
03:22:06,559 --> 03:22:09,399
cops what we're trying to trying to get done anyway.

3243
03:22:09,559 --> 03:22:11,840
You know, we're, among other things, in addition to presenting

3244
03:22:11,920 --> 03:22:16,799
you know, accurate history of the conflict and of the

3245
03:22:16,799 --> 03:22:20,360
Third Reich generally, you know, we we want this to

3246
03:22:20,399 --> 03:22:25,079
be a basically revisionist exercise. And I mean a lot

3247
03:22:25,079 --> 03:22:28,000
of what with that entails. It's, you know, kind of

3248
03:22:28,440 --> 03:22:32,680
addressing the most common myths promulgated by court historians that

3249
03:22:32,760 --> 03:22:36,360
sort of corrupt the conceptual picture people have of things.

3250
03:22:36,520 --> 03:22:40,760
And so today I think the way to proceed is

3251
03:22:40,799 --> 03:22:43,920
to deal with Adolf Hitler and his role as warlord

3252
03:22:44,200 --> 03:22:48,479
quite literally, you know, and his strengths and weaknesses they're

3253
03:22:48,520 --> 03:22:52,520
in in that command role, some of the challenges he faced,

3254
03:22:52,680 --> 03:22:56,799
you know, both within the control group of the Third Reich,

3255
03:22:57,000 --> 03:23:00,360
you know, particularly as conflicts with you know, military leadership

3256
03:23:00,399 --> 03:23:02,760
in the general staff, you know, as well as the

3257
03:23:03,319 --> 03:23:05,959
political situation, which was you know, in some ways more

3258
03:23:06,000 --> 03:23:09,840
delicate than than people think, you know. And also you know,

3259
03:23:09,920 --> 03:23:13,840
deal with the deal with the you know, the misconception

3260
03:23:13,920 --> 03:23:17,360
people have about about the war against the Soviet Union,

3261
03:23:17,399 --> 03:23:19,200
both that it was this you know, just kind of

3262
03:23:19,399 --> 03:23:21,639
example of naked aggression, you know. I mean, we dealt

3263
03:23:21,639 --> 03:23:24,920
with that last episode, you know, in correcting the record

3264
03:23:24,959 --> 03:23:28,120
on that in the large part. But also there's this

3265
03:23:28,200 --> 03:23:31,399
idea is promulgated, including by some people who should know better,

3266
03:23:31,399 --> 03:23:34,799
you know, people who have a background as general military officers,

3267
03:23:35,200 --> 03:23:38,959
you know, this idea that the way the war was

3268
03:23:39,000 --> 03:23:43,840
perpetuated or even you know, deigning to launch the operation itself,

3269
03:23:44,000 --> 03:23:47,639
was with somehow this keyxotic, impossible mission that was just

3270
03:23:47,680 --> 03:23:50,040
doomed to failure, that it could not. That is not

3271
03:23:50,120 --> 03:23:53,600
the case at all, and Germany practically won the Second

3272
03:23:53,600 --> 03:23:57,040
World War in autumn of nineteen forty one, and we're

3273
03:23:57,079 --> 03:24:01,840
going to get into that, and I want to get

3274
03:24:01,840 --> 03:24:07,440
into some context first as to, you know, how operational

3275
03:24:07,479 --> 03:24:12,559
doctrine developed in a in terms of the general the

3276
03:24:12,559 --> 03:24:15,879
German general staffs outlook as well as that of Hitler himself,

3277
03:24:17,319 --> 03:24:20,479
and at times these viewpoints between the fear and the

3278
03:24:20,479 --> 03:24:23,360
general state converged. At times they were very much at odds.

3279
03:24:23,399 --> 03:24:29,079
But just to frame a kind of the core issues,

3280
03:24:29,959 --> 03:24:32,719
and I'm going to dive deeper into these as we

3281
03:24:32,799 --> 03:24:35,120
go along, but just in order to frame what we're

3282
03:24:35,120 --> 03:24:39,239
going to talk about this episode. June of July ninety

3283
03:24:39,319 --> 03:24:43,399
forty one. Okay, the first weeks of Barbarossa, the Rmacht had,

3284
03:24:43,760 --> 03:24:47,879
for all practical purposes, defeated the Soviet Union's field armies. Okay,

3285
03:24:47,959 --> 03:24:52,559
the utterly devastated the Soviet Union's and military capability, to

3286
03:24:52,600 --> 03:24:55,319
the point that it was a fourgared conclusion in the

3287
03:24:55,360 --> 03:24:58,000
minds of essentially everybody on both sides that the Soviet

3288
03:24:58,079 --> 03:25:04,719
Union was defeated. Okay, specifically or of specific significance to

3289
03:25:04,760 --> 03:25:06,719
the revision is as well as anybody who just wants

3290
03:25:06,760 --> 03:25:11,479
an accurate picture of about combat resolved in the East.

3291
03:25:12,120 --> 03:25:14,799
The period of August to October nineteen forty one was

3292
03:25:14,799 --> 03:25:17,680
absolutely critical and the Third Reich could have not just

3293
03:25:17,799 --> 03:25:20,639
vankers the Soviet Army, but they could have defeated the

3294
03:25:20,639 --> 03:25:24,440
Soviet Union. Okay, why this didn't happen owes to a

3295
03:25:24,479 --> 03:25:29,600
titanic error or actually a couple, but one in particular

3296
03:25:29,719 --> 03:25:35,239
we'll get into, you know, a decision, a decision at

3297
03:25:36,399 --> 03:25:41,200
the level of Supreme operational Command that that sabotaged that possibility,

3298
03:25:43,799 --> 03:25:51,079
you know it. The short answer is that Army Group Center,

3299
03:25:51,680 --> 03:25:56,479
which was the share punk of the entire assault in

3300
03:25:56,520 --> 03:26:02,040
the Soviet Union, on July twenty ninth, Adolf Hitler, for

3301
03:26:02,079 --> 03:26:06,000
all pradical purposes, halted Army Group Centers advance, diverted it

3302
03:26:06,079 --> 03:26:10,600
in an eccentric attack posture into Ukraine in order to

3303
03:26:10,639 --> 03:26:14,719
annihilate reserve forces there that he feared could be utilized

3304
03:26:14,719 --> 03:26:18,879
to outflank the Wehrmacht. And why And this delayed the

3305
03:26:18,920 --> 03:26:24,120
assault on Moscow for critical days and UH, which allowed

3306
03:26:24,200 --> 03:26:28,239
uh the Red Army to reconstitute, you know, allowed permitted

3307
03:26:28,959 --> 03:26:33,799
the weather to become totally unfavorable to mechanized forces and

3308
03:26:33,959 --> 03:26:38,120
H and essentially halted the assault at the gates of Moscow. Okay,

3309
03:26:38,159 --> 03:26:42,719
and this is something that's that's deliberately overlooked, and even

3310
03:26:42,719 --> 03:26:48,040
people who don't have a particularly charitable view of the Hrmacht. Uh. Again,

3311
03:26:48,440 --> 03:26:51,360
within six months, the Vermoncht was literally at the gates

3312
03:26:51,360 --> 03:26:56,319
of Moscow. So that alone should kind of raise suspicions

3313
03:26:56,319 --> 03:26:58,680
that you know, court history and its description of this,

3314
03:26:59,479 --> 03:27:02,479
of this of this massive operation as some again some

3315
03:27:02,559 --> 03:27:05,520
crazy keyxotic effort that was doomed to failure. I mean

3316
03:27:05,520 --> 03:27:09,760
that that should smash that misconception to pieces. And finally

3317
03:27:11,159 --> 03:27:13,040
we got to get into UH the what I think

3318
03:27:13,159 --> 03:27:17,120
is the myth of Blitzkrieg. Okay, Blitzkreek does describe something,

3319
03:27:17,280 --> 03:27:22,879
but it's not. There's not some school of warfare called Blitzkrieg. Okay. Basically,

3320
03:27:22,959 --> 03:27:25,680
what it describes is it describes a break with precedents

3321
03:27:26,479 --> 03:27:32,959
owing to UH, owing to a a dramatic innovations and

3322
03:27:33,040 --> 03:27:37,639
mobility and specifically, you know the ability of UH, the

3323
03:27:37,680 --> 03:27:41,600
ability of assaulting armies to gain advantage in ways that

3324
03:27:41,680 --> 03:27:47,600
theretofore was not possible. Okay, now, why what what was

3325
03:27:47,600 --> 03:27:56,000
blitzkreg diverting from in terms of its precedent. Interestingly, and

3326
03:27:56,040 --> 03:28:01,680
this shouldn't be a surprise anybody, the uh, really the uh.

3327
03:28:02,079 --> 03:28:08,200
The primary German contribution in political terms to what you

3328
03:28:08,239 --> 03:28:12,959
know and kind of you know, linear history, mainstream history

3329
03:28:13,040 --> 03:28:16,600
is called the Enlightenment. The primary contribution in in in

3330
03:28:16,760 --> 03:28:19,360
pure political terms as a body of theory was closet

3331
03:28:19,399 --> 03:28:21,639
withs Okay and cloudyist is the theory of war was

3332
03:28:21,680 --> 03:28:28,879
a theorist of warfare. Now, Cloudswitz declared, you know a

3333
03:28:28,920 --> 03:28:32,879
lot of things both about the nature of the politics

3334
03:28:32,879 --> 03:28:35,920
of warfare, and he considered politics and military activity to

3335
03:28:35,920 --> 03:28:41,719
be basically synonymous. And that is significant and it's all,

3336
03:28:41,799 --> 03:28:44,040
you know, not just generally, but it's significant to how

3337
03:28:44,280 --> 03:28:47,399
how Hitler approached military problems. It didn't owe to just

3338
03:28:47,520 --> 03:28:51,559
eccentricities of of within the mind of Hitler himself and

3339
03:28:51,559 --> 03:28:56,479
and and features of his own personality. But Cloudswitz also

3340
03:28:56,559 --> 03:29:00,360
in in in strategic terms, and how he described you know,

3341
03:29:00,440 --> 03:29:06,799
the battle space, the modern battle space, he declared, and

3342
03:29:06,840 --> 03:29:10,479
knowing certain terms that there's no shortcut to victory. Like

3343
03:29:10,520 --> 03:29:13,040
what he meant was that, you know, okay, there's gonna

3344
03:29:13,040 --> 03:29:16,159
be technological innovation, you know, there's gonna be adaptations to

3345
03:29:16,360 --> 03:29:19,520
you know, changing conditions going to these innovations, but that

3346
03:29:19,639 --> 03:29:22,360
basically in the clouds in its view, you know, the

3347
03:29:22,399 --> 03:29:24,920
only way that you know, what wins wars is you know,

3348
03:29:25,120 --> 03:29:28,399
victory and set peace battles you know that emphasize, you know,

3349
03:29:28,559 --> 03:29:31,799
where victors emphasize the advance of fire, you know, and

3350
03:29:31,840 --> 03:29:34,680
when possible, stubbs to doing firepower for man power to

3351
03:29:34,719 --> 03:29:39,479
mitigate you know, attrition, and through this process you know,

3352
03:29:39,680 --> 03:29:41,959
just you know, kind of a gradual weakening, weakening of

3353
03:29:42,000 --> 03:29:46,040
the defender and subbsequently exploiting you know, holes that are

3354
03:29:46,079 --> 03:29:50,399
paunched quite literally in the mainline of resistance, you know, uh,

3355
03:29:50,520 --> 03:29:53,799
basically killing enemy armies through you know, this process of

3356
03:29:54,040 --> 03:29:58,079
you know, brutal application of firepower and terms most likely

3357
03:29:58,159 --> 03:30:06,959
to create upper cotunities to breach resistance lines. Okay, patterns

3358
03:30:06,959 --> 03:30:09,520
of deployment he believe were constant. Again, you know, the

3359
03:30:09,559 --> 03:30:11,840
only thing that changes is the ability to apply to

3360
03:30:12,079 --> 03:30:18,719
apply fire in terms of you know, the it's destructive

3361
03:30:18,719 --> 03:30:21,479
force as well as it's you know, as well as

3362
03:30:21,520 --> 03:30:25,559
its targeted accuracy. But you know, the CloudSwitch in Mantra

3363
03:30:25,719 --> 03:30:28,440
is that firepower saves lies the strength of an army,

3364
03:30:28,600 --> 03:30:31,959
you know, is is estimated and multiplying the mass by velocity,

3365
03:30:32,120 --> 03:30:37,440
which was also a napoleon axiom, a Napoleonic axiom. Rather,

3366
03:30:39,600 --> 03:30:47,680
now this basically characterized combat until nineteen eighteen. What happened

3367
03:30:47,760 --> 03:30:52,399
was the advance of armor, which you know, arrived in

3368
03:30:52,399 --> 03:30:55,079
the battlefield in the Great War, but hadn't really been

3369
03:30:55,159 --> 03:30:58,040
utilized to deliberate effect other than as a kind of

3370
03:30:58,120 --> 03:31:02,159
you know, way of other than as a kind of

3371
03:31:02,159 --> 03:31:10,719
mobile firepower. What changed in the inner warriors was that

3372
03:31:10,760 --> 03:31:16,399
people like von sieg too uh was somewhat people like

3373
03:31:16,520 --> 03:31:20,680
Rommel for context, and von Manstain where the theories of

3374
03:31:20,760 --> 03:31:22,719
on SIGs and von Sikus. He didn't have a he

3375
03:31:22,959 --> 03:31:26,360
didn't he didn't he didn't have opportunity to view the

3376
03:31:26,399 --> 03:31:29,280
concrete particulars of armored combat, but he had a sense

3377
03:31:29,319 --> 03:31:33,399
of how it would resolve, how armored combat did resolve.

3378
03:31:33,840 --> 03:31:37,200
The textbook example is the Battle of France, okay, and

3379
03:31:38,879 --> 03:31:42,159
what happened there was that armored columns were able to

3380
03:31:42,200 --> 03:31:48,200
strike so deeply through French lines that essentially even where

3381
03:31:48,680 --> 03:31:50,840
even where the French were deployed in depth, they were

3382
03:31:50,879 --> 03:31:54,200
constantly having to regroup and try to re establish the

3383
03:31:54,239 --> 03:31:56,399
main line of resistance. They were unable to do that

3384
03:31:56,719 --> 03:31:59,399
because they kept on getting smashed and they literally could

3385
03:31:59,399 --> 03:32:02,639
not keep off with the advancing panzers. And when they could,

3386
03:32:02,760 --> 03:32:05,520
they find themselves off and in reversed lines. So this

3387
03:32:05,639 --> 03:32:11,559
caused like utter chaos. And on top of that, because

3388
03:32:11,600 --> 03:32:14,680
the armored columns overshot the infantry, which at that point

3389
03:32:14,760 --> 03:32:17,040
was still on foot you know, mechanized imagery, it didn't

3390
03:32:17,040 --> 03:32:19,639
exist yet as we know it. As they were trying

3391
03:32:19,639 --> 03:32:22,280
to reconcert the mainline resistance, they'd get a hit by

3392
03:32:22,280 --> 03:32:25,520
supporting infantry which would smash them again. So basically it's

3393
03:32:25,600 --> 03:32:29,719
you know, the Crudi Gras was, you know, vermocked infantry

3394
03:32:29,799 --> 03:32:34,600
after this kind of devastating, punishing blow. Okay, now this

3395
03:32:34,760 --> 03:32:38,520
is just kind of how battle developed. Okay, if you've

3396
03:32:38,559 --> 03:32:43,639
got a dedicated armored element in your in your ground forces,

3397
03:32:43,920 --> 03:32:46,319
it's not like somebody sat down, you know, whether it's

3398
03:32:46,319 --> 03:32:50,479
not like Irwin Rommel or Yodel or von Manstein sat

3399
03:32:50,559 --> 03:32:53,120
down and said, okay, the theory of warfare it's called blitzkrieg,

3400
03:32:53,200 --> 03:32:54,879
and like this is what it entails, and you know,

3401
03:32:54,920 --> 03:32:58,680
this is its doc triant to features. It's nothing like that.

3402
03:32:59,479 --> 03:33:04,399
And on top of that, the German Army, despite the

3403
03:33:04,440 --> 03:33:08,120
myth that, uh, this is really really idiotic myth that's

3404
03:33:08,120 --> 03:33:11,200
propagated by people who are they've got to be conceptually

3405
03:33:11,239 --> 03:33:13,799
illiterate or they or they just aren't interested in in

3406
03:33:13,840 --> 03:33:18,600
presenting a true and accurate uh picture of uh the

3407
03:33:18,760 --> 03:33:22,239
vermachten and and and kind of the German way of wark.

3408
03:33:23,680 --> 03:33:28,000
Germans practice what's called mission oriented tactics. Okay, general orders

3409
03:33:28,000 --> 03:33:32,760
are issued all the way down to the company level,

3410
03:33:32,959 --> 03:33:35,559
and commanders are given broad leeway and how to accomplish

3411
03:33:35,639 --> 03:33:38,200
those objectives. Okay, it's it's really kind of the opposite

3412
03:33:38,239 --> 03:33:40,879
of how the Russian Army today and previously the Soviet

3413
03:33:40,959 --> 03:33:45,239
Army does things. Where uncertainty is attempts at radicating uncertainty

3414
03:33:46,319 --> 03:33:50,040
is uh, there's an attempt to eradicate uncertainty by by

3415
03:33:50,680 --> 03:33:53,840
by treating doctrine uh, almost like regulation, you know, and

3416
03:33:53,840 --> 03:33:56,360
giving commander is very very little leeway. That's changing. But

3417
03:33:56,399 --> 03:34:00,239
that's outside the scope we're talking about. But so what

3418
03:34:00,239 --> 03:34:02,440
I'm getting is that you have these German armored commanders

3419
03:34:02,559 --> 03:34:05,000
and they're smashing through the main line of resistance at

3420
03:34:05,120 --> 03:34:08,440
rapid pace, and uh, they're not being told to stop.

3421
03:34:08,639 --> 03:34:10,840
They're being told basically to chase the enemy down and

3422
03:34:10,920 --> 03:34:13,319
kill them. And that's what they're doing. And before they

3423
03:34:13,360 --> 03:34:15,879
know what, they find themselves, you know, traversing three hundred

3424
03:34:15,959 --> 03:34:18,799
miles like beyond you know, the initial objective, you know,

3425
03:34:18,920 --> 03:34:23,760
and uh and uh and chasing chasing enemy armies, you know,

3426
03:34:23,879 --> 03:34:28,879
deep deep into into into territory beyond the initial objective,

3427
03:34:29,319 --> 03:34:32,479
you know, and their their flanks are secure because they

3428
03:34:32,559 --> 03:34:37,440
quite literally outran every supporting element of the opposing force.

3429
03:34:37,680 --> 03:34:39,559
And even if they weren't, you know again like they're

3430
03:34:39,559 --> 03:34:43,399
backed up by this infantry that's you know, uh, go

3431
03:34:43,479 --> 03:34:47,639
to a ride fresh and smash whatever whatever forces might

3432
03:34:47,639 --> 03:34:51,879
be trying to uh trying to perform an encircle the maneuver,

3433
03:34:53,200 --> 03:34:55,920
which by that point wouldn't matter anyway a lot of time,

3434
03:34:55,959 --> 03:34:59,840
because again, you know, they'd be dealing with reversed lines,

3435
03:35:00,360 --> 03:35:03,120
which caused all kinds of havoc in those days, particularly

3436
03:35:03,120 --> 03:35:05,680
before you know, what we consider to be you know,

3437
03:35:06,559 --> 03:35:08,239
with the kind of commanding control we dake for granted,

3438
03:35:08,360 --> 03:35:15,280
was present. So so there's not there's there's not a

3439
03:35:15,360 --> 03:35:18,040
school of battle called bliss Kreeg, where what it is

3440
03:35:18,120 --> 03:35:21,879
is it's describing what it described in the moment, was,

3441
03:35:22,040 --> 03:35:24,760
you know, how combat was resolving in ways that there too,

3442
03:35:24,799 --> 03:35:29,760
forre late, had not been experienced because the technology was

3443
03:35:29,799 --> 03:35:32,719
not available for any such thing like that to you know,

3444
03:35:34,200 --> 03:35:39,639
to UH to be decisive on the battlefield. So as

3445
03:35:39,719 --> 03:35:42,639
the UH, as the general stab and it Hitler observed

3446
03:35:42,639 --> 03:35:46,280
this UH, that changed the way they approached strategic problems

3447
03:35:47,239 --> 03:35:51,319
and they came to realize, as it Hillar himself, that

3448
03:35:51,680 --> 03:35:55,840
UH the Soviet Union, unlike the Western Front in World

3449
03:35:55,840 --> 03:36:00,440
War One, which created bottlenecks, was this vast step. Okay,

3450
03:36:00,440 --> 03:36:04,280
it's basically, you cannot ask for a better UH or

3451
03:36:04,319 --> 03:36:07,799
a more ideal UH, a more ideal kind of terrain,

3452
03:36:07,920 --> 03:36:10,600
the wage armor warfare, you know, particularly if you have

3453
03:36:10,639 --> 03:36:16,040
a particularly if you have certain advantages, which in large

3454
03:36:16,040 --> 03:36:21,319
part the Germans did. So that's important because it owes

3455
03:36:21,360 --> 03:36:26,479
to the conceptual UH mindset of UH of of Hitler

3456
03:36:26,520 --> 03:36:30,479
himself and and the general staff on on the eve

3457
03:36:30,520 --> 03:36:40,040
of battle. So this kind of brings us to an

3458
03:36:40,040 --> 03:36:42,799
overarching manner in revisionism, this idea that Hitler was this

3459
03:36:42,840 --> 03:36:47,559
reckless gambler in military and political terms, and that you know,

3460
03:36:47,639 --> 03:36:51,879
he some you know, he he he was emboldened by

3461
03:36:51,879 --> 03:36:55,280
the successes that he had early on, and he pursued

3462
03:36:55,280 --> 03:36:59,920
this kind of key quote uh crazy. Uh, you know,

3463
03:37:00,000 --> 03:37:03,440
at least this this this this irrational kind of war

3464
03:37:03,520 --> 03:37:05,760
on the and the on the Soviet Union that was

3465
03:37:05,760 --> 03:37:09,719
the void of strategic logic. That's totally an odditate precedent

3466
03:37:10,440 --> 03:37:16,719
in my opinion. We talked in the last episode about

3467
03:37:16,959 --> 03:37:19,840
Hitler holding back forces from the Rhineland in nineteen thirty

3468
03:37:19,879 --> 03:37:23,680
six rather than risking war with the UK and France.

3469
03:37:23,840 --> 03:37:28,479
I mean that that was characteristic of Hitler. Hitler didn't

3470
03:37:28,479 --> 03:37:33,000
assault Czechoslovakia, despite uh, the kind of myth of Munich

3471
03:37:33,079 --> 03:37:35,239
and this a and and the fact that it's kind

3472
03:37:35,239 --> 03:37:40,040
of become synonymous with, you know, Nazi aggression. Hitler very

3473
03:37:40,040 --> 03:37:44,079
adeptly was able to uh, you know, discredit not just

3474
03:37:44,159 --> 03:37:48,159
Benis but the entire enterprise of the Czechoslovaki and regime.

3475
03:37:48,920 --> 03:37:52,680
You know. And uh, by the time uh, by the

3476
03:37:52,760 --> 03:37:57,040
time uh it would have been opportunity to give an

3477
03:37:57,079 --> 03:38:00,440
assault order, you know, Slovakia had already succeeded Sedate in

3478
03:38:00,520 --> 03:38:03,360
Germans for all practical purposes, it, you know, had become

3479
03:38:03,360 --> 03:38:08,319
an independent to protectorate. You know, the Polish and uh

3480
03:38:08,639 --> 03:38:12,200
Ruthenian minorities were demanding their own independence, like Czechoslovakia had

3481
03:38:12,239 --> 03:38:16,040
ceased to exist owing to Hitler's you know, intrigues. Okay,

3482
03:38:16,559 --> 03:38:18,319
if Hiller was just as a gambler who you know,

3483
03:38:18,399 --> 03:38:25,120
favored UH favored UH, favored the gun proverbially over you know,

3484
03:38:25,239 --> 03:38:31,520
over over the conspiratorial UH option, I mean that this,

3485
03:38:31,520 --> 03:38:36,200
this would not have happened. When Hitler finally did give

3486
03:38:36,200 --> 03:38:38,959
it out and out assault order. It was against Poland,

3487
03:38:39,040 --> 03:38:42,239
and that was only after the Molotov ribbentroz packed had

3488
03:38:42,239 --> 03:38:46,840
been put the paper, Okay, and essentially by that, by

3489
03:38:47,000 --> 03:38:50,079
by doing so, and by securing the cooperation of the

3490
03:38:50,120 --> 03:38:53,639
Soviet Union, at least for that limited purpose, there was

3491
03:38:53,639 --> 03:38:57,239
no chance that Germany would get you know, forced into

3492
03:38:57,280 --> 03:38:59,479
a war with the Soviet Union, for they prepared before

3493
03:38:59,520 --> 03:39:01,799
they were for haired. But that also meant there was

3494
03:39:01,840 --> 03:39:04,680
no chance that you know, the UK and France would

3495
03:39:04,680 --> 03:39:07,559
be able to deploy in theater, you know, and and

3496
03:39:07,559 --> 03:39:11,479
and and turn the tide of uh turn the tide

3497
03:39:11,479 --> 03:39:15,520
of war. So essentially Hitler not only was he not

3498
03:39:15,840 --> 03:39:19,559
you know, w reckless gambler on strategic questions. He waited

3499
03:39:19,639 --> 03:39:24,840
until quite literally the fix was in before uh pulling

3500
03:39:24,840 --> 03:39:29,520
the proverbial trigger. And based on those instants, you know,

3501
03:39:29,799 --> 03:39:34,479
militarily cautious but politically bold. I mean, what did by

3502
03:39:34,559 --> 03:39:38,440
July ninety By July nineteen forty, what had Hitler done?

3503
03:39:39,000 --> 03:39:43,719
He defeated Poland, Denmark, Norway, Luxembourg, Holland, Belgium, and France.

3504
03:39:43,799 --> 03:39:47,440
He'd occupied virtually all those states and defeated the British Army.

3505
03:39:48,040 --> 03:39:51,719
I mean, can't like they a gambler doesn't win one

3506
03:39:51,760 --> 03:39:54,520
hundred percent of the time. Okay, like you can't. That's ridiculous,

3507
03:39:54,639 --> 03:39:58,639
it's uh and uh. It was in July nineteen forty

3508
03:39:58,760 --> 03:40:02,319
that's when Hitler decided that the Germans were gonna preemptively

3509
03:40:02,360 --> 03:40:06,000
assault the USSR. I know people are gonna take exception

3510
03:40:06,079 --> 03:40:07,879
to that in the comments and probably other plays like

3511
03:40:07,879 --> 03:40:09,719
what do you mean preemptively? Okay, we dealt with that

3512
03:40:09,840 --> 03:40:15,360
last episode. I'm happy to argue the point with anybody

3513
03:40:15,879 --> 03:40:18,520
you know who wants to take it up, but I'm

3514
03:40:18,520 --> 03:40:20,959
not going to reiterate everything we covered because that's not

3515
03:40:21,200 --> 03:40:23,159
fair to the listeners. And I worry I'm going to

3516
03:40:23,159 --> 03:40:25,280
SEENI island repeating myself already. I don't need to do

3517
03:40:25,280 --> 03:40:31,200
it on purpose. But Hitler's decision of sault He was

3518
03:40:31,239 --> 03:40:34,520
a Samurary nineteen forty. That was really the only way

3519
03:40:34,680 --> 03:40:38,079
that Germany wins the Second World War. Okay, strategic terms,

3520
03:40:38,159 --> 03:40:40,879
it was the correct decision. You know, I'm not saying

3521
03:40:40,959 --> 03:40:44,360
moral terms. I'm not going to weigh in on that.

3522
03:40:45,120 --> 03:40:49,200
I'm not you know, I'm not saying I'm not coming

3523
03:40:49,200 --> 03:40:54,280
out swinging in defense of the Thirdback's political ambitions or

3524
03:40:54,280 --> 03:40:57,040
making something to showness to point out Germany. I'm speaking

3525
03:40:57,040 --> 03:41:00,079
in realist, strategic terms. It was the right decision. M

3526
03:41:03,360 --> 03:41:06,239
had Germany bank which the Soviet Union. Any posture the

3527
03:41:06,239 --> 03:41:09,719
British took, even if they still had the Empire intact,

3528
03:41:09,760 --> 03:41:12,520
it would be meaningless. Okay. Germany would have control of

3529
03:41:12,559 --> 03:41:16,040
the entire continent from the Atlantic to the Earls. They

3530
03:41:16,079 --> 03:41:18,440
would have had all the fuel, all the iron, ore,

3531
03:41:18,600 --> 03:41:22,879
all the agricultural resources of the entire continent and part

3532
03:41:22,879 --> 03:41:27,760
of Central Asia. Okay, I mean, even in the even

3533
03:41:27,840 --> 03:41:32,639
the best of all possible worlds, under that, under those circumstances, uh,

3534
03:41:32,840 --> 03:41:35,000
even if Britain was was the marshal all of its

3535
03:41:35,079 --> 03:41:38,159
resources available from the Empire, which're gonnare presuming to be

3536
03:41:38,200 --> 03:41:43,000
totally intact, they would have been at fundamental disadvantage, you know,

3537
03:41:43,159 --> 03:41:46,680
against Germany and in North Africa. It you know it

3538
03:41:46,959 --> 03:41:50,520
Germany could have bided its time and in uh in

3539
03:41:50,600 --> 03:41:53,120
defeating them piecemeal, or they could have staged simply a

3540
03:41:53,159 --> 03:41:56,319
mass invasion, you know, with the assistants of Italy, and

3541
03:41:56,360 --> 03:41:58,000
they would have had you know, they could have u

3542
03:41:58,319 --> 03:42:00,280
they could have knocked you the world and they out

3543
03:42:00,280 --> 03:42:06,360
of the Mediterranean with really without with you know, without

3544
03:42:06,399 --> 03:42:09,319
having to worry about you know, sacrificing resources that were

3545
03:42:09,319 --> 03:42:12,680
needed in any secondary theater. Okay, I mean you would

3546
03:42:12,680 --> 03:42:15,200
have been looking at a situation where Germany, again with

3547
03:42:15,239 --> 03:42:19,200
the resources of an entire continent, could have mobilized and

3548
03:42:19,559 --> 03:42:24,520
devoted all of its capabilities to total war against the UK. Okay,

3549
03:42:25,959 --> 03:42:29,600
not just that, but the reason I raised Nulty last

3550
03:42:29,600 --> 03:42:32,680
episode is because there is a strongly political dimension to

3551
03:42:32,760 --> 03:42:34,959
the Second World War. I mean, not just the obvious,

3552
03:42:35,040 --> 03:42:40,639
but this was an apocal uh moment. Okay. Had the

3553
03:42:40,639 --> 03:42:44,200
Soviet Union been annihilated, you know, not only would that

3554
03:42:44,959 --> 03:42:48,639
you know, destroyed for all practical purposes, the international communist movement.

3555
03:42:49,079 --> 03:42:50,719
It would have put the nail in the coffin of

3556
03:42:50,760 --> 03:42:53,959
this you know kind of new deal democracy ideology, like

3557
03:42:54,040 --> 03:42:57,200
all these things we take for granted as the as

3558
03:42:57,200 --> 03:42:59,280
the kind of conceits of the victors and their their

3559
03:42:59,280 --> 03:43:01,840
political value use and you know, the way they structure

3560
03:43:01,840 --> 03:43:04,760
the world. You know, ethically, these things would not exist,

3561
03:43:05,200 --> 03:43:07,360
you know, any more than you know, monarchy would exist,

3562
03:43:07,479 --> 03:43:09,879
or any more than you know, any other kind of

3563
03:43:10,319 --> 03:43:13,520
any other kind of vanquished to theology would would have,

3564
03:43:14,280 --> 03:43:17,559
you know, animating power to you know, to mobilize other

3565
03:43:17,600 --> 03:43:22,239
people or or or determine the you know, the the

3566
03:43:22,280 --> 03:43:25,360
configuration of states and that war at peace or anything

3567
03:43:25,399 --> 03:43:28,280
like that, so that they can't be overemphasized. Like the

3568
03:43:28,319 --> 03:43:30,799
Third Reich wins the Second World War, if the Soviet

3569
03:43:30,840 --> 03:43:35,120
Unions defeated, you know, the alternative is, you know, the

3570
03:43:35,120 --> 03:43:37,559
Third Reich remains a second rate power, you know, on

3571
03:43:37,639 --> 03:43:40,280
a European continent that itself is kind of failing, and

3572
03:43:40,920 --> 03:43:43,600
you know, it becomes it becomes either a client state

3573
03:43:43,600 --> 03:43:46,840
of the Soviet Union because you know, the the USSR

3574
03:43:46,959 --> 03:43:51,639
completes it's full mobilization potential which again was rivaled by

3575
03:43:51,680 --> 03:43:54,079
no state other than the United States, and it you know,

3576
03:43:54,159 --> 03:43:57,239
either just conquers Germany, you know, by force of arms,

3577
03:43:57,719 --> 03:44:00,360
or it just you know, absorb kind of become the

3578
03:44:00,360 --> 03:44:03,319
pivot of the continent politically, because it's so much more

3579
03:44:03,360 --> 03:44:06,200
powerful than it's the next strongest neighbor that you know,

3580
03:44:06,200 --> 03:44:08,159
there's just no there's no way that it can be

3581
03:44:08,200 --> 03:44:11,440
resisted by by by force and role, oil or arms

3582
03:44:11,719 --> 03:44:14,200
or any other ways. So it's it's it's asinine when

3583
03:44:14,200 --> 03:44:16,360
people act like, you know, the Germans should have just

3584
03:44:16,440 --> 03:44:18,319
kind of sat in their hands and none nothing, I mean,

3585
03:44:18,639 --> 03:44:21,120
in any case of lack of understanding of power of politics.

3586
03:44:21,120 --> 03:44:24,840
But also specifically the strategic situation.

3587
03:44:25,360 --> 03:44:37,239
Speaker 4: Of of of nineteen forty forty one, it uh it uh.

3588
03:44:37,520 --> 03:44:43,559
Speaker 2: And that brings us to the kind of common uh,

3589
03:44:44,600 --> 03:44:49,159
the kind of common refrain of court historians is that

3590
03:44:49,360 --> 03:44:53,479
uh Hitler is sold of the uss are owing to the

3591
03:44:53,559 --> 03:44:56,319
you know, some kind of hair brain scheme to defeat Britain,

3592
03:44:57,040 --> 03:44:59,280
because you know, that would have precluded not just you know,

3593
03:44:59,399 --> 03:45:04,719
the the open you know, the the the burning in Germany,

3594
03:45:04,840 --> 03:45:06,760
of having to fight a two front war, but also

3595
03:45:06,799 --> 03:45:09,200
it you know, would have sapped. Uh, it would a

3596
03:45:09,239 --> 03:45:13,200
sap Churchill's regime of any of any confidence that you know,

3597
03:45:13,280 --> 03:45:17,200
they they they could have had the benefit of of

3598
03:45:17,200 --> 03:45:20,399
of Soviet arms and and resources under perpetually throwing war

3599
03:45:20,520 --> 03:45:25,399
like that's nonsense too. Again, the Hitler did not want

3600
03:45:25,440 --> 03:45:27,840
to conquer the United Kingdom. There was nothing to be

3601
03:45:27,879 --> 03:45:31,399
gained from that. I don't think it was possible in

3602
03:45:31,520 --> 03:45:34,079
operational terms because the forces and being weren't there. And

3603
03:45:34,120 --> 03:45:37,840
even even if they were, uh, Germany did not have

3604
03:45:37,959 --> 03:45:40,280
a deep water navy that could have accomplished that. So

3605
03:45:40,319 --> 03:45:43,000
it's just it's it's a non I wanted to preempt

3606
03:45:43,040 --> 03:45:47,360
that before anybody raised that in the comments or something.

3607
03:45:47,399 --> 03:45:53,840
It's it's a non issue. But so in July twenty first, Uh,

3608
03:45:54,040 --> 03:45:57,840
that's when Hitler gave the order to Van Brausich to

3609
03:45:58,079 --> 03:46:01,479
begin drafting preparation of operating in Barbarossa. You know, again,

3610
03:46:01,559 --> 03:46:05,479
it was immediately after the defeat of France. It was

3611
03:46:05,639 --> 03:46:09,319
after you know what, in hindsight and in the epoch

3612
03:46:09,360 --> 03:46:11,959
as it was as it developed, was viewed as Blitzkrieg.

3613
03:46:12,079 --> 03:46:15,920
It was this game changing sort of a sort of

3614
03:46:15,959 --> 03:46:22,040
a development, you know, Uh, the advent of armor on

3615
03:46:22,079 --> 03:46:26,120
the modern battlefield, you know, and that that is what

3616
03:46:26,680 --> 03:46:31,879
emboldened not just Hitler but the general staff to pursue

3617
03:46:31,879 --> 03:46:35,200
the assault. Then, in addition to the fact that again

3618
03:46:35,239 --> 03:46:37,760
as we got into last episode, you know, the it

3619
03:46:38,559 --> 03:46:41,799
was critical that you know, the Germans preempt what amounted

3620
03:46:41,879 --> 03:46:47,159
to a massive Soviet mobilization that was underway, the purpose

3621
03:46:47,200 --> 03:46:50,239
of which the evidence is clear, was you know, to

3622
03:46:50,719 --> 03:46:54,079
assault and conquer Europe, and with Germany as the kind

3623
03:46:54,079 --> 03:47:01,159
of jewel in that Jewish strategic prize. And I want

3624
03:47:01,159 --> 03:47:03,760
to make uh, I want to make point. I wanted

3625
03:47:03,879 --> 03:47:06,079
to make the point too. And this is not just

3626
03:47:06,120 --> 03:47:08,719
a matter of semantics or something being lost in translation.

3627
03:47:11,159 --> 03:47:15,079
Hitler's incessant return to the concept of Lapan's wrong, like

3628
03:47:15,120 --> 03:47:18,920
literally living space. You've got to understand that in context,

3629
03:47:18,959 --> 03:47:22,319
You've got to understand that that the term is utilized

3630
03:47:22,319 --> 03:47:25,079
because of the polemical weight that it carries. Hitler is

3631
03:47:25,079 --> 03:47:28,559
not suggesting that Germany's overcrowded or something, or that you know,

3632
03:47:28,840 --> 03:47:32,719
it's got this burgening population like China or something. What

3633
03:47:32,760 --> 03:47:35,760
he was saying was a more correct term probably would

3634
03:47:35,760 --> 03:47:38,200
have been gross wrong. But again, Hilary had a flair

3635
03:47:38,200 --> 03:47:42,280
for the dramatic, and he was utilizing polemic. Germany had

3636
03:47:42,280 --> 03:47:47,319
to become a superpower. Otherwise it's political ambitions, it's existential destiny,

3637
03:47:47,440 --> 03:47:54,719
it's survival in their own view, oh, would have been compromised. Okay,

3638
03:47:54,879 --> 03:47:58,559
you win the Second World War by becoming a superpower. Okay,

3639
03:47:58,639 --> 03:48:00,520
that is how you win. You know, you don't win

3640
03:48:00,559 --> 03:48:03,079
it just by surviving or by hanging on by a thread,

3641
03:48:03,159 --> 03:48:05,840
or by becoming some client state of the Soviet Union.

3642
03:48:07,280 --> 03:48:09,520
And people don't understand this. Only have to look at

3643
03:48:09,520 --> 03:48:12,120
the look at the polical map of the planet today,

3644
03:48:12,840 --> 03:48:16,719
you know, and ask themselves, you know, why uh why uh.

3645
03:48:17,159 --> 03:48:19,760
Globally we're in this mess that we are, with this uh,

3646
03:48:20,440 --> 03:48:24,040
with this uh, with this American regime that you know,

3647
03:48:25,559 --> 03:48:28,440
although it's losing this ability, you know, as as the

3648
03:48:28,440 --> 03:48:31,399
capacity to project power anywhere in the world and and

3649
03:48:31,479 --> 03:48:35,280
slate you know, other societies for annihilation that it, you know,

3650
03:48:35,719 --> 03:48:39,600
does not view as sufficiently compliant with its ideological regime,

3651
03:48:39,680 --> 03:48:42,920
with its ideological ambitions. Okay, I mean it's we're not

3652
03:48:42,920 --> 03:48:45,760
talking about something academic here, We're talking about what happened.

3653
03:48:46,360 --> 03:48:51,799
You know, the Europe was annihilated, Japan was annihilated the

3654
03:48:51,879 --> 03:48:54,319
United States, and the Slovie Union divided up the world.

3655
03:48:54,600 --> 03:48:59,399
You know, the Soviet Union capitulated uh, owing to ah,

3656
03:49:00,079 --> 03:49:04,079
you know, the burdens of the strategic challenge in the

3657
03:49:04,159 --> 03:49:06,879
later nuclear age, and you were left for the with

3658
03:49:06,959 --> 03:49:12,559
a with a unit polar uh uh, political, military, ideological regimes.

3659
03:49:12,600 --> 03:49:14,520
So that this is not academic, you know, I don't

3660
03:49:14,520 --> 03:49:20,319
see how people can argue otherwise. But this brings up

3661
03:49:20,319 --> 03:49:22,479
this kind of the next big point. Germany did not

3662
03:49:22,600 --> 03:49:24,319
underestimate the Soviet Union.

3663
03:49:24,520 --> 03:49:24,840
Speaker 1: Okay.

3664
03:49:26,760 --> 03:49:29,280
Speaker 2: The kaiser Reich had fought for four years against the

3665
03:49:29,319 --> 03:49:31,879
Russian Empire, just as they did on the Western Front.

3666
03:49:32,239 --> 03:49:35,040
There was a huge percentage of German general officers who

3667
03:49:35,079 --> 03:49:39,159
had fought the Russian army. Okay, they they knew the

3668
03:49:39,239 --> 03:49:41,959
Russian character. They knew that the Russian people were very game,

3669
03:49:41,959 --> 03:49:46,200
were very tough. They knew that fighting in Russia was

3670
03:49:46,399 --> 03:49:50,760
an incredibly arduous and brutal experience. They nobody. This was

3671
03:49:50,840 --> 03:49:54,559
not some remote thing, okay, and these were not This

3672
03:49:54,719 --> 03:49:56,840
was not some uh, this was not some second rate

3673
03:49:56,959 --> 03:50:00,159
army you know that uh, that had no experience and

3674
03:50:00,239 --> 03:50:04,079
so of of of the enemy and the terrain that

3675
03:50:04,159 --> 03:50:07,760
they were planning to wage war on you know. So

3676
03:50:07,840 --> 03:50:11,760
that's Franz Halder. He was the chief of the General

3677
03:50:11,879 --> 03:50:15,639
staff of the hero and Holders. An interesting guy for

3678
03:50:15,639 --> 03:50:19,600
a lot of reasons. And he I mean, this man

3679
03:50:19,639 --> 03:50:24,639
alone couldetic could warrant the dedicated podcast or episode. But

3680
03:50:25,159 --> 03:50:26,959
we're not getting get into the kind of various intrigues

3681
03:50:26,959 --> 03:50:30,120
of a Holder. But what we what is important about

3682
03:50:30,120 --> 03:50:32,879
his character is that he was kind of the consummate reserved,

3683
03:50:33,000 --> 03:50:35,239
you know, German officer of the euro Okay, he was

3684
03:50:35,239 --> 03:50:39,000
now particularly ideologically inclined. He was kind of calculating. He

3685
03:50:39,120 --> 03:50:41,799
was not a man who went much in common with Hitler,

3686
03:50:42,600 --> 03:50:47,239
but uh, he wrote in his diary. He kept a

3687
03:50:47,239 --> 03:50:50,200
war diary, which is incredible because I mean it's like

3688
03:50:50,239 --> 03:50:52,840
a historical treasure trove of testimony about what was in

3689
03:50:52,840 --> 03:50:56,520
the minds of the General staff. He kept a diary

3690
03:50:56,639 --> 03:51:00,959
dedicated exclusively to preparation for Operation Barbarossa from ninety forty

3691
03:51:01,079 --> 03:51:04,000
when Hitler gave the order of preparation until June twenty second,

3692
03:51:04,079 --> 03:51:09,360
forty one, when the assault commenced, and he wrote he

3693
03:51:09,399 --> 03:51:14,200
wrote about the coming operation with confidence but discernible trepidation. Okay,

3694
03:51:14,360 --> 03:51:17,559
there's not a single remark in there that indicates he'd,

3695
03:51:17,799 --> 03:51:21,600
you know, he was underestimating the Soviets or the rigors,

3696
03:51:21,680 --> 03:51:23,879
or the brutality or the severity the coming war in

3697
03:51:23,920 --> 03:51:29,479
the east. Like quite the contrary. But nonetheless he had

3698
03:51:29,520 --> 03:51:35,520
absolute confidence that combat would resolve in the so against

3699
03:51:35,559 --> 03:51:39,600
the Soviet Union in six to ten weeks. Okay. On

3700
03:51:39,719 --> 03:51:43,959
July third, forty one, Heller stated in his diary, and

3701
03:51:44,079 --> 03:51:49,239
let me call it up here, quote after two weeks

3702
03:51:49,239 --> 03:51:54,799
of war, the Soviets have been beaten. Okay. Now why

3703
03:51:54,799 --> 03:51:59,559
did Helder say that? It's uh, there was a I

3704
03:51:59,559 --> 03:52:08,520
mean it's hard to drive home the kind of devastation

3705
03:52:08,680 --> 03:52:13,559
that the Wehrmacht was able to reek upon the Red Army.

3706
03:52:13,879 --> 03:52:15,719
Part of this was because in some of the theaters

3707
03:52:15,760 --> 03:52:18,040
they were fighting in, I mean this was a massive front,

3708
03:52:18,079 --> 03:52:20,399
you know, divided into three army groups. I remember up

3709
03:52:20,440 --> 03:52:24,159
north as an assaulted through the Baltics. Despite this kind

3710
03:52:24,200 --> 03:52:25,920
of myth that the Germans were just you know, anngting

3711
03:52:25,959 --> 03:52:28,479
like Genghis Khan and brutalizing the indigenous people e where

3712
03:52:28,479 --> 03:52:31,280
they went, that's not true at all. The Germans had

3713
03:52:31,319 --> 03:52:34,360
a huge number of allies among people conquered by the Soviets.

3714
03:52:34,680 --> 03:52:36,760
You know, thousands, amnt thousands of these men joined the

3715
03:52:36,760 --> 03:52:38,920
Baffin SS and no where was the symbol the more

3716
03:52:39,040 --> 03:52:44,000
kind of sharp than in the Baltics and Army group

3717
03:52:44,040 --> 03:52:46,360
North as it kind of smashed through the Baltics and

3718
03:52:46,520 --> 03:52:50,120
roots to its objective of Leningrad. You know, the people

3719
03:52:50,120 --> 03:52:52,120
in the Baltic States, you know, they rose up against

3720
03:52:52,120 --> 03:52:54,120
the Red Army. You know, so the Red Room was

3721
03:52:54,120 --> 03:52:56,559
fighting not just the Wehrmacht, it was fighting you know

3722
03:52:56,920 --> 03:52:59,680
people It plays like Belarus, people in the Baltic States,

3723
03:52:59,719 --> 03:53:03,799
people Ukraine, you know, who had risen off against their

3724
03:53:04,200 --> 03:53:07,559
communist overlords. Okay, like a lot of what people claim

3725
03:53:07,559 --> 03:53:09,360
about what's happening in the Eastern Front in the early

3726
03:53:09,440 --> 03:53:14,719
days is totally at odds that what actually happened the uh,

3727
03:53:15,760 --> 03:53:20,479
the German UH in terms of in terms of aircraft, uh,

3728
03:53:20,600 --> 03:53:23,959
the exchange attrition rate was something insane, like you know,

3729
03:53:24,120 --> 03:53:27,440
one to one and thirty one favoring the Germans. You

3730
03:53:27,479 --> 03:53:31,639
know they uh you know, you're talking about armun collums

3731
03:53:31,639 --> 03:53:35,719
striking literally hundreds of miles deep behind the mainline of resistance.

3732
03:53:35,760 --> 03:53:41,319
You know, within days, you know, this was unprecedented. So

3733
03:53:41,440 --> 03:53:47,239
what exactly happened to change this momentum will get to

3734
03:53:47,319 --> 03:53:51,440
that in a minute, but I want to I want

3735
03:53:51,440 --> 03:53:57,159
to reemphasize too. You know, we talked UH last episode

3736
03:53:57,200 --> 03:54:00,000
about the UH on the eve of Barbarosa. The entire

3737
03:54:00,000 --> 03:54:05,360
eligid sestiments and figures of Soviet deployment, you know that

3738
03:54:05,440 --> 03:54:11,319
were presented to Hitler himself by you know, UH, the

3739
03:54:10,799 --> 03:54:12,920
the the High Command of the Army, of the Navy

3740
03:54:12,920 --> 03:54:17,680
and of the Loofaffa. Okay, these numbers weren't accurate, you know,

3741
03:54:17,799 --> 03:54:20,319
I mean it was they were verified after the subsation

3742
03:54:20,399 --> 03:54:24,440
of hostilities. You know, Hitler was hitler holder, the ok

3743
03:54:24,760 --> 03:54:30,399
W commanders in the field, you know, subordinate to that

3744
03:54:31,959 --> 03:54:37,000
executive structure. They were proceeding based upon accurate numbers. I mean,

3745
03:54:37,040 --> 03:54:40,280
so it's you know, you've got you've got a Holder

3746
03:54:40,319 --> 03:54:45,040
who's you know, optimistic, but you know, UH exhibiting a

3747
03:54:45,079 --> 03:54:49,120
lot of trepidation in his own personal writings. You know,

3748
03:54:49,159 --> 03:54:51,280
you've got Hitler and the ok W who are planning

3749
03:54:51,280 --> 03:54:54,879
this operation with remarkably accurate numbers, which is a credit

3750
03:54:54,879 --> 03:54:58,040
to German military intel. Uh. The the ADVERA was a

3751
03:54:58,120 --> 03:55:02,520
disaster for all kinds of reasons. But and uh raw

3752
03:55:02,600 --> 03:55:04,959
military intelligence that came from the here and came from

3753
03:55:04,959 --> 03:55:07,319
the Kreeks Marine and aloof off. It was actually quite

3754
03:55:08,159 --> 03:55:11,200
it's quite incredible that they were able to render such

3755
03:55:11,200 --> 03:55:16,920
a such a you know, a factual picture of reality

3756
03:55:17,040 --> 03:55:20,280
and in you know, with the technology that they that's

3757
03:55:20,280 --> 03:55:23,399
difficult even today with you know, kind of the panoptic

3758
03:55:23,639 --> 03:55:27,079
uh vision that we have, but in those days are

3759
03:55:27,120 --> 03:55:30,799
truly extraordinary. So I mean the material terms, uh, the

3760
03:55:30,840 --> 03:55:35,920
Germans were at all levels were calculating victory odds based

3761
03:55:35,959 --> 03:55:41,120
on actual forces and being. And finally, and this is

3762
03:55:41,159 --> 03:55:44,399
a huge point, and I the only person I've ever

3763
03:55:44,440 --> 03:55:49,159
heard refer to this was uh Leon Degrell in any detail.

3764
03:55:49,799 --> 03:55:56,000
As Okay, if the Germans underestimate, you know, underestimated the

3765
03:55:56,040 --> 03:55:59,799
Soviet Union, why did it take one hundred and ninety

3766
03:55:59,799 --> 03:56:02,319
five of weeks for the Soviet Union to defeat Germany

3767
03:56:02,879 --> 03:56:05,479
with the with then you know, with like lavish assistants

3768
03:56:05,479 --> 03:56:08,319
from the United States, with terror bombing day at night

3769
03:56:08,399 --> 03:56:10,559
by the United States and the Royal Air Force, with

3770
03:56:10,680 --> 03:56:13,159
a massive invasion of Western Europe by the United States

3771
03:56:13,159 --> 03:56:16,799
and the UK. Like that doesn't sound like an underestimation

3772
03:56:16,920 --> 03:56:19,200
at all. Okay, if the Soviet Union was a juggernaut,

3773
03:56:20,200 --> 03:56:22,000
I mean, shouldn't have it turned the tide of marching

3774
03:56:22,000 --> 03:56:25,680
on Berlin within within within weeks or months? I mean

3775
03:56:25,719 --> 03:56:28,159
I think about that. It's it's not it's not a

3776
03:56:28,159 --> 03:56:34,239
political point or a Middland point. It uh it you know,

3777
03:56:34,319 --> 03:56:37,319
it should have. Uh if there was if there was

3778
03:56:37,440 --> 03:56:41,360
parody between the Hmacht and between the Red Army and

3779
03:56:41,799 --> 03:56:46,840
the defeat uh levied against the right, was this result

3780
03:56:46,879 --> 03:56:49,959
of gross underestimation or as hubris? I mean we just

3781
03:56:50,079 --> 03:56:54,440
established that, you know, modern warfare with the with armor

3782
03:56:54,479 --> 03:56:58,040
as the as the kind of as the primary variable

3783
03:56:58,159 --> 03:57:01,319
in ground combat. I mean the Soviet Union should they

3784
03:57:01,319 --> 03:57:02,959
should have they should have turned the tide and you know,

3785
03:57:03,040 --> 03:57:06,000
smashed smashed the German army within weeks. You know, it's

3786
03:57:06,079 --> 03:57:09,200
basically the Germans had done to them like once they reconstituted. Obviously,

3787
03:57:09,280 --> 03:57:14,040
but so why did this happen. We're gonna return to

3788
03:57:14,600 --> 03:57:16,520
We're gonna return to Klaus. It was for a moment.

3789
03:57:18,120 --> 03:57:21,559
Hitler basically was a siege commander. Okay, you know Bolden

3790
03:57:21,600 --> 03:57:23,959
as Hitler was by Blitzkrieg as much as you know

3791
03:57:24,120 --> 03:57:26,680
this kind of figured into his calculus for what the

3792
03:57:26,680 --> 03:57:29,399
correct strategic decision was. Hitler was a man who was

3793
03:57:29,399 --> 03:57:31,600
born in the nineteenth century. You know. Hitler was a

3794
03:57:31,600 --> 03:57:34,840
guy who fought on the Western Front. You know when

3795
03:57:34,879 --> 03:57:39,719
warfare essentially, I mean the body count was was was horrendous,

3796
03:57:40,040 --> 03:57:43,200
owing to the machine gun and owing to some other innovations.

3797
03:57:43,200 --> 03:57:45,799
But you know, World War One combat was basically on

3798
03:57:45,920 --> 03:57:49,920
Napoleonic combat, you know, set piece battles that resolved essentially

3799
03:57:49,920 --> 03:57:52,559
according to like Klaudswitz's dictum almost you know, to a t.

3800
03:57:53,920 --> 03:57:57,920
You know, you can't escape these formative experiences and how

3801
03:57:57,920 --> 03:58:02,120
they informed their conceptual horizon. That's the way Hitler thought

3802
03:58:02,159 --> 03:58:07,680
of things, Okay, at where the rubber meets the road

3803
03:58:07,680 --> 03:58:12,200
in terms of operational execution. Hitler was also a political leader, okay.

3804
03:58:12,239 --> 03:58:15,120
And I mean there's this, you know, there's this kind

3805
03:58:15,159 --> 03:58:17,639
of court history claim like, well, Hitler was constantly interfering

3806
03:58:17,639 --> 03:58:20,639
with his generals. His generals, you know, the generals know better.

3807
03:58:21,239 --> 03:58:23,440
You've got a serious problem if you're a civilian chief

3808
03:58:23,440 --> 03:58:26,319
executive and you're simply handing policy to your generals. I

3809
03:58:26,319 --> 03:58:31,000
mean that's called the military junta. Okay. I mean even

3810
03:58:31,120 --> 03:58:35,399
kind of one of the tragedies of of any man,

3811
03:58:36,000 --> 03:58:41,399
of any civilian executive at war, whether you're talking about

3812
03:58:41,440 --> 03:58:44,239
mister Putin and the president, whether you're talking about Adolf Hitler,

3813
03:58:44,879 --> 03:58:47,520
you know in nineteen forty one, whether you're talking about

3814
03:58:47,600 --> 03:58:49,680
John F. Kennedy trying to stare down on Mitchell Leay

3815
03:58:49,680 --> 03:58:52,520
and the Joint Chief during the human Missile crisis. There's

3816
03:58:52,559 --> 03:58:57,760
always a critical tension between the armed forces and civilian leadership.

3817
03:58:58,680 --> 03:59:06,159
And this, uh this, uh this has this corrodes operational

3818
03:59:06,200 --> 03:59:08,840
effectiveness because there are times when a civilian leader needs

3819
03:59:08,840 --> 03:59:12,239
to put the brakes on military decisionism simply to salvage

3820
03:59:12,280 --> 03:59:15,000
his own political mandate and prevent himself from being bulldozed,

3821
03:59:15,840 --> 03:59:19,520
even if then harms the rapid execution of orders in

3822
03:59:19,559 --> 03:59:24,079
the field. And that's a military sociology question, but it's

3823
03:59:25,440 --> 03:59:28,239
it bears out in all times and all epics. And uh,

3824
03:59:28,440 --> 03:59:32,840
Hitler was very much a civilian. Okay, his role is

3825
03:59:32,920 --> 03:59:35,799
worldword is kind of his critical contribution to history. But

3826
03:59:36,319 --> 03:59:39,200
you know, Hitler was not some career military officer, a

3827
03:59:39,200 --> 03:59:42,680
Prussian general, you know, he was uh, he served with

3828
03:59:42,719 --> 03:59:45,360
this with distinction as an n c O. But that

3829
03:59:45,520 --> 03:59:48,879
was the extent of his of his uh, of his

3830
03:59:48,920 --> 03:59:53,440
military life, you know, and that uh the uh that

3831
03:59:53,440 --> 03:59:57,600
that's fundamentally important and understanding why he made the decisions

3832
03:59:57,639 --> 04:00:04,000
he did at critical junctures. And finally, you know, in

3833
04:00:07,479 --> 04:00:09,360
one of the reasons. Now I'm gonna bring this back,

3834
04:00:09,360 --> 04:00:13,879
but this is an important point. Okay, we were talking

3835
04:00:13,879 --> 04:00:18,520
about Blitzkrieg. It more reflects a way that combat develops

3836
04:00:18,840 --> 04:00:23,920
through the application of technology and the technology of violence.

3837
04:00:25,920 --> 04:00:29,200
That's really characteristic of the twentieth century. And there's a

3838
04:00:29,239 --> 04:00:32,840
parallel with strategic nuclear war planning, where things got to

3839
04:00:32,920 --> 04:00:37,040
the point that command and control structure is to sustain

3840
04:00:37,239 --> 04:00:41,040
the capacity to wage nuclear war were so complicated and

3841
04:00:41,159 --> 04:00:47,559
so insinuated into oblique features of the national state, civilian

3842
04:00:47,559 --> 04:00:51,319
and military, that that actually makes you more vulnerable than

3843
04:00:51,840 --> 04:00:58,280
in more in more primitive phases of development. Historically, one

3844
04:00:58,319 --> 04:01:01,479
of the reasons Blitzkrieg, or perceived as Bliszberg, reaks such

3845
04:01:01,520 --> 04:01:04,719
habit is that if you do penetrate deep behind enemy lines,

3846
04:01:05,159 --> 04:01:09,280
you can wreak utter devastation on his logistics, on his

3847
04:01:09,319 --> 04:01:13,760
command and control. You're literally traveling faster than information. Okay,

3848
04:01:13,920 --> 04:01:16,440
then is now welltho. Now like I mean, you know,

3849
04:01:16,959 --> 04:01:19,959
in in true strategic planning during the Cold War that

3850
04:01:20,040 --> 04:01:25,000
the the the window of decision was reduced to minutes,

3851
04:01:25,079 --> 04:01:28,440
to reduce two minutes. But you know, think about a

3852
04:01:28,559 --> 04:01:31,559
man Adolf Hitler was born in eighteen eighty nine, you know,

3853
04:01:31,639 --> 04:01:34,000
I mean the fact that he he didn't he hadn't

3854
04:01:34,040 --> 04:01:39,360
fully adapted to the new way of warfare. I think

3855
04:01:39,360 --> 04:01:43,040
that I think that describes every chief of state of

3856
04:01:43,079 --> 04:01:45,959
a combatant nation in the war. You know, I mean,

3857
04:01:46,000 --> 04:01:49,799
I don't I don't think. I don't, I don't. I

3858
04:01:50,600 --> 04:01:53,000
think that that neither puts you know, any kind of

3859
04:01:53,040 --> 04:01:56,879
shine on Hitler in his command attitude, nor nor is

3860
04:01:56,920 --> 04:02:00,520
it some kind of growth sort of strike against him

3861
04:02:00,760 --> 04:02:06,440
it uh. But what is significant is that any man

3862
04:02:06,440 --> 04:02:09,120
who's a student of Clause which and basically every German

3863
04:02:09,159 --> 04:02:14,040
executive of the modern era, including Hitler's hero Frederick the Second,

3864
04:02:14,600 --> 04:02:17,760
you know, who's kind of the consummate, dynamic Prussian officer.

3865
04:02:18,079 --> 04:02:23,239
You know, you love that type the uh, the uh

3866
04:02:24,040 --> 04:02:28,239
that the ethos was, you know, to rapidly capture objectives,

3867
04:02:28,280 --> 04:02:32,559
but to reduce, to limit those objectives to what uh,

3868
04:02:32,719 --> 04:02:40,280
to what can be uh effectively managed and defended. And

3869
04:02:40,360 --> 04:02:45,239
what's telling is that Hitler paced Operation Barbarossa very deliberately

3870
04:02:45,879 --> 04:02:49,479
towards the objective of capturing and seizing Leningrad, you know,

3871
04:02:50,079 --> 04:02:53,280
and they capture Leningrad in the opening days and weeks,

3872
04:02:53,440 --> 04:02:55,600
in his estimation, would allow a siege line to be

3873
04:02:55,639 --> 04:02:59,319
created where in Germany command and control would be in

3874
04:02:59,360 --> 04:03:05,200
the most advantageous position available for an eventual assault at Moscow,

3875
04:03:05,600 --> 04:03:08,520
like meanwhile, the Soviet Baltic Fleet could be dealt with

3876
04:03:08,600 --> 04:03:13,200
and knocked out. What happened as Army Group North proceeded

3877
04:03:13,239 --> 04:03:17,520
to Moscow or they proceed to Leningrad is a Hitler

3878
04:03:17,639 --> 04:03:20,000
ordered elements in Army groups Army Group Center to be

3879
04:03:20,079 --> 04:03:23,159
diverted to back up Army Group North, because his idea

3880
04:03:23,319 --> 04:03:26,159
was that like, well, you know, resistance is gonna it's

3881
04:03:26,200 --> 04:03:28,399
gonna be too great to be rapidly overcome, and you know,

3882
04:03:28,440 --> 04:03:31,280
we've got to create our mainline of resistance, you know,

3883
04:03:32,360 --> 04:03:34,760
backed up by forces it off that you know, if

3884
04:03:34,760 --> 04:03:36,719
we get bogged out, we can deploy in depth, you know,

3885
04:03:36,760 --> 04:03:39,600
and establish you know, a defensive perimeter. You know, this

3886
04:03:39,719 --> 04:03:42,920
totally cuts against this kind of picture of Hitler is

3887
04:03:42,959 --> 04:03:49,239
like reckless warlord who uh you know who who who who?

3888
04:03:49,280 --> 04:03:54,639
Who pulls the trigger before loading the proverbial gun. And

3889
04:03:54,719 --> 04:04:00,440
eventually what happened is as Army Group Center did move

3890
04:04:00,719 --> 04:04:04,840
on uh Moscow, Hitler ordered to stop in his tracks.

3891
04:04:06,239 --> 04:04:08,680
He ordered critical elements that were the most that enjoyed

3892
04:04:08,680 --> 04:04:11,520
the most mobility, to be diverted to Ukraine in order

3893
04:04:11,520 --> 04:04:15,239
to encircle and annihilate the Red Army strategic reserves that

3894
04:04:15,280 --> 04:04:20,639
were based there. That cost days and weeks, that allowed

3895
04:04:20,879 --> 04:04:25,239
Moscow to be fortified. It allowed strategic reserve elements from

3896
04:04:25,319 --> 04:04:30,159
Siberia to be called upon and transported to reconstitute forces

3897
04:04:30,200 --> 04:04:33,719
to defend Moscow, and by that time it was too

3898
04:04:33,799 --> 04:04:37,680
late to breach the gates of the city because the weather.

3899
04:04:37,719 --> 04:04:41,840
In turn, I mean, this is what happened. Okay, it

3900
04:04:41,920 --> 04:04:47,479
was key decisions, that one being the most damning, but

3901
04:04:48,639 --> 04:04:53,360
it h that's what cost Germany the war again, which

3902
04:04:53,399 --> 04:04:55,600
were causing victory of the Soviet Union, which would cost

3903
04:04:55,639 --> 04:05:01,000
him the war altogether. You know, it's uh, it was

3904
04:05:01,040 --> 04:05:03,920
not uh, it was not under estimation of the enemy.

3905
04:05:04,000 --> 04:05:07,639
It was not you know that the uh, the German

3906
04:05:07,680 --> 04:05:09,399
General staff didn't know what he was doing It was

3907
04:05:09,399 --> 04:05:12,440
not that Hitler was crazy and the German General staff

3908
04:05:12,440 --> 04:05:15,360
basically invented war gaming. Okay, I mean they gained the

3909
04:05:15,440 --> 04:05:18,840
scenario of attacking the Soviet Union for an entire year

3910
04:05:18,959 --> 04:05:25,000
before you know, the assault was implemented. You know, the

3911
04:05:25,040 --> 04:05:27,159
idea that these men weren't drawing upon data or they

3912
04:05:27,159 --> 04:05:28,719
were flying by the seat of their pants. I mean,

3913
04:05:28,760 --> 04:05:34,399
it's it's incredibly it's it's incredibly stupid. It's almost as

3914
04:05:34,399 --> 04:05:38,959
foolish as people claiming I I had UH. I had

3915
04:05:39,000 --> 04:05:43,840
a guy who actually uh. He he told me with

3916
04:05:43,879 --> 04:05:45,559
the straight face. And this is a guy who liked

3917
04:05:45,559 --> 04:05:48,200
to tell himself out as I don't want to name him,

3918
04:05:48,239 --> 04:05:50,040
I think people know him. He's like this British guy.

3919
04:05:50,280 --> 04:05:53,360
He was like YouTube videos about uh about the Second

3920
04:05:53,399 --> 04:05:57,639
World War. He actually dropped the canard about you know, oh,

3921
04:05:57,719 --> 04:06:02,440
Germans didn't even you know, manufacture you know, winter uniforms.

3922
04:06:02,440 --> 04:06:05,840
It's like, okay, we're gonna assault the Soviet Union in

3923
04:06:05,920 --> 04:06:09,159
June and you're trying to provide your you know, you're

3924
04:06:09,200 --> 04:06:11,399
you're fitting to provide your army with winter gear. You're

3925
04:06:11,440 --> 04:06:14,520
preparing to literally lose that campaign, you know. I mean,

3926
04:06:14,559 --> 04:06:15,760
it's Uh, you don't.

3927
04:06:15,879 --> 04:06:16,120
Speaker 1: You don't.

3928
04:06:16,159 --> 04:06:18,319
Speaker 2: You don't set about in campaigns that you know and

3929
04:06:18,399 --> 04:06:20,600
say like, well, we're gonna get bogged down at the

3930
04:06:20,600 --> 04:06:23,120
gates were objective. Then we're gonna hunker down to the winter,

3931
04:06:23,200 --> 04:06:24,760
and then we're gonna wait for spring and we're gonna

3932
04:06:24,760 --> 04:06:26,639
try and assault again and see what works at that time.

3933
04:06:27,079 --> 04:06:31,680
Like it's not military operations like succeed or or it's

3934
04:06:31,719 --> 04:06:34,280
it's disaster. You know, you don't plan for these, like,

3935
04:06:34,399 --> 04:06:38,120
you know, losing contingencies, you know, and if you do

3936
04:06:38,399 --> 04:06:40,920
is as Lincoln said about McClellan, you know, you're you're,

3937
04:06:40,959 --> 04:06:43,559
you're you're literally like you're literally planning to lose. And

3938
04:06:43,600 --> 04:06:45,799
I mean I I, uh, I.

3939
04:06:47,639 --> 04:06:47,799
Speaker 1: Don't.

3940
04:06:47,840 --> 04:06:49,680
Speaker 2: I don't think a general is planning to lose. Is

3941
04:06:50,280 --> 04:06:54,000
worth a lot to uh to uh to anybody in

3942
04:06:54,120 --> 04:06:58,360
uh in warfare. It uh I kind of wanted to uh.

3943
04:06:58,840 --> 04:07:02,280
Speaker 1: Well, I mean there's also that the whole myth of

3944
04:07:02,479 --> 04:07:06,879
that Operation Barbarossa started in the winter. Yeah, people can

3945
04:07:07,000 --> 04:07:07,879
say that all the time.

3946
04:07:09,079 --> 04:07:11,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's totally well people, I think people too, and

3947
04:07:11,559 --> 04:07:13,040
I don't want to go too far a field, but

3948
04:07:13,120 --> 04:07:16,319
it's it's relevant. There's two things that I know. And

3949
04:07:16,319 --> 04:07:18,079
one of these things is something somebody raised in the

3950
04:07:18,079 --> 04:07:20,079
comments to me that I wanted to take up. But

3951
04:07:20,239 --> 04:07:24,200
first and foremost people, pretty much everybody alive today, like

3952
04:07:24,239 --> 04:07:28,280
nobody remembers like twentieth century general wars. Okay, they remember

3953
04:07:28,280 --> 04:07:31,840
these like weird managed conflicts that don't have real stakes,

3954
04:07:31,920 --> 04:07:34,239
and that I mean anymore these days. And the Pentagon

3955
04:07:34,280 --> 04:07:36,399
goes to war, it's like it's a make work enterprise.

3956
04:07:36,520 --> 04:07:38,319
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, they're not war for power.

3957
04:07:38,840 --> 04:07:41,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they don't realize they don't realize too that.

3958
04:07:41,639 --> 04:07:44,440
You know, if you're an actual like full blow military operation,

3959
04:07:45,120 --> 04:07:48,120
it it it's it resolves rapidly. You know, you don't

3960
04:07:48,159 --> 04:07:50,000
go to war to say like, yeah, we're gonna you know,

3961
04:07:50,000 --> 04:07:52,559
we're gonna muck around in South Vietnam for a decade,

3962
04:07:52,639 --> 04:07:55,239
or you know, we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna occupy

3963
04:07:55,280 --> 04:07:58,319
you Aghanistan for no particular reason because you know, girls

3964
04:07:58,360 --> 04:08:01,319
can't go to school there and people pro opio and

3965
04:08:01,360 --> 04:08:03,399
we're gonna stay there for twenty years, and you know,

3966
04:08:03,399 --> 04:08:05,239
we're getting this engine money and then you know we're

3967
04:08:05,239 --> 04:08:07,479
gonna run around and yeah, these guys are the Taliban.

3968
04:08:07,600 --> 04:08:09,520
We're gonna we're gonna tell them to stop doing what

3969
04:08:09,559 --> 04:08:12,040
they're doing. But it's not a military operation. And some

3970
04:08:12,079 --> 04:08:15,360
weird make work like operation short of war that you know,

3971
04:08:15,479 --> 04:08:19,879
is on that spectrum but doesn't really have any strategic objective.

3972
04:08:20,319 --> 04:08:24,360
I mean, if you're you know, there's a the fact

3973
04:08:24,360 --> 04:08:28,000
that uh, the fact that uh. But again, I mean

3974
04:08:28,040 --> 04:08:29,959
that's why it shows you how I mean I made

3975
04:08:30,000 --> 04:08:32,440
the point before that, Uh, you know, the Second World

3976
04:08:32,520 --> 04:08:36,879
War was actually a few different conflicts, and you know,

3977
04:08:36,920 --> 04:08:42,280
the Soviet Union, uh, the Soviet Union fighting the Vermount

3978
04:08:42,319 --> 04:08:45,840
to a stalemate that could have actually resolved a few

3979
04:08:45,840 --> 04:08:50,680
different ways, you know, had had had had uh kind

3980
04:08:50,680 --> 04:08:52,920
of the thick's had already been in between mister Roosevelt

3981
04:08:52,959 --> 04:08:55,159
and Stalin and say, like, you know that you had

3982
04:08:55,159 --> 04:08:57,760
an American regime that, even if inclined to go to

3983
04:08:57,799 --> 04:09:00,200
war with the Third Reich, was not really willing to

3984
04:09:01,399 --> 04:09:03,559
you know, to uh to generate this kind of operational

3985
04:09:03,680 --> 04:09:06,479
independence with the Soviets. You gotta very very easily gonna

3986
04:09:06,479 --> 04:09:08,799
come to the Soviets, you know, saying like, well, accept

3987
04:09:08,840 --> 04:09:10,319
the peace as long as you would draw to White

3988
04:09:10,360 --> 04:09:12,399
Russia or something, you know, or like you know, with

3989
04:09:12,559 --> 04:09:15,600
draw like within thirty corroborators of Ukrainian border or the

3990
04:09:15,639 --> 04:09:18,440
Ukrainian Russian border, and like, you know, we'll we'll set

3991
04:09:18,440 --> 04:09:21,319
that as you know, kind of like the the uh,

3992
04:09:21,559 --> 04:09:24,000
the treaty line. But it's by you know, this was

3993
04:09:24,000 --> 04:09:27,799
by no means like set in stone. And you know,

3994
04:09:27,879 --> 04:09:31,200
like I said, the fact that uh, the fact that, uh,

3995
04:09:31,360 --> 04:09:33,440
you know, if if Germany just were if if the

3996
04:09:33,479 --> 04:09:35,600
Germans were these fools and these guys who weren't drawn

3997
04:09:35,680 --> 04:09:38,680
upon any real data and hadn't gained you know, possible

3998
04:09:38,719 --> 04:09:42,200
scenarios adequately, you know, it's like, okay, then why did

3999
04:09:42,239 --> 04:09:45,079
it take one hundred and ninety five weeks for Moscow

4000
04:09:45,200 --> 04:09:48,159
to reach Berlin? You know, like they should have they

4001
04:09:48,479 --> 04:09:51,360
should have been Okay, the German assault failed. Here's their

4002
04:09:51,440 --> 04:09:54,120
army counter attack three months later. You know, there's you've

4003
04:09:54,159 --> 04:09:56,799
got a you've got the right army like smashing across

4004
04:09:56,799 --> 04:09:59,319
like the Older river, you know. I mean that's that's

4005
04:09:59,319 --> 04:10:03,719
so that's important too. I mean it was political conditions

4006
04:10:04,079 --> 04:10:08,959
that uh and and you know, uh America literally you know,

4007
04:10:09,799 --> 04:10:14,719
providing life support, you know, and and and uh in

4008
04:10:14,760 --> 04:10:16,840
the in the form of you know, really whatever whatever

4009
04:10:16,920 --> 04:10:19,799
was necessary was ever, whatever was necessary to sustain the

4010
04:10:19,840 --> 04:10:24,040
campaign that kept them in in the game, and that uh,

4011
04:10:24,319 --> 04:10:28,879
you know the it's also it's a testament too, you

4012
04:10:28,879 --> 04:10:30,959
know the reason one of the Germans were so it's

4013
04:10:31,239 --> 04:10:34,520
i uh people who claim to looking at the wrong

4014
04:10:34,680 --> 04:10:39,879
numbers of uh of opposing forces that the Behrmacht was facing.

4015
04:10:41,079 --> 04:10:43,479
A lot of the Red Army was incredibly tough, incredibly

4016
04:10:43,479 --> 04:10:47,760
gain a lot of it wasn't okay, simply having piles

4017
04:10:47,799 --> 04:10:51,559
of weapons, you know, we're simply having armored vehicles. You've

4018
04:10:51,559 --> 04:10:54,200
got to train people to fight in a modern war, Okay,

4019
04:10:54,360 --> 04:10:57,399
You've got to integrate your operational elements, you know, to

4020
04:10:57,479 --> 04:10:59,959
actually be cohesive enough that you know they can add

4021
04:11:00,239 --> 04:11:02,559
operationally in the way that they need to. You know,

4022
04:11:03,319 --> 04:11:06,319
piles of hardware don't decide wars. That's what is this

4023
04:11:06,440 --> 04:11:09,200
totally insane that you know, Okay, Mary's is gonna send

4024
04:11:09,200 --> 04:11:12,079
fifty billion dollars in military hardware Ukraine. Like to do

4025
04:11:12,159 --> 04:11:14,559
what like, what's that gonna do? You know what I mean?

4026
04:11:14,639 --> 04:11:18,760
Like it uh, it's not you can't just drop weapons

4027
04:11:18,760 --> 04:11:21,280
on people and something they become like trained trained, like

4028
04:11:21,319 --> 04:11:23,959
you know, tankers or you know something they become like

4029
04:11:24,040 --> 04:11:27,000
competent like infantry and CEOs. You know, you can't even

4030
04:11:27,479 --> 04:11:28,959
there's a lot of people running around you don't even

4031
04:11:29,000 --> 04:11:31,520
know like fire a gun, okay, you know like at

4032
04:11:31,639 --> 04:11:35,280
uh a uh any even any even if they're competent

4033
04:11:35,319 --> 04:11:37,719
with weapons, they're certainly not like comfortable with like some

4034
04:11:37,760 --> 04:11:40,319
freaking knockoff NATO like A or fifteen. I mean, why

4035
04:11:40,360 --> 04:11:41,760
would they be, you know, like if you never if

4036
04:11:41,760 --> 04:11:44,520
you haven't been habituated to that. I mean that's uh,

4037
04:11:45,280 --> 04:11:50,120
I mean, it's all these things. But it's uh, the

4038
04:11:50,120 --> 04:11:54,479
the uh the uh you know, and it's not just

4039
04:11:54,680 --> 04:11:58,600
uh what the side of the war was, uh was

4040
04:11:58,719 --> 04:12:01,520
uh was what happened in August and then you know

4041
04:12:01,559 --> 04:12:04,440
the failure of the assault in Moscow. But you know

4042
04:12:04,479 --> 04:12:08,559
the Germans also they reached Leningrad within weeks. You know,

4043
04:12:08,600 --> 04:12:11,840
there's this horrible siege like medieval and character for years

4044
04:12:11,879 --> 04:12:14,559
like what happened in Leningrad it's like horrifying, you know,

4045
04:12:14,600 --> 04:12:16,879
and then it was months later. But you know, the

4046
04:12:16,959 --> 04:12:19,440
Germans not only did they reached Stalingrad, they breached the

4047
04:12:19,479 --> 04:12:22,680
gates of Stalingrad. You know, the Stalingrad defenders were fighting

4048
04:12:22,719 --> 04:12:25,760
within Stalingrad, you know, like it was not so I mean,

4049
04:12:25,760 --> 04:12:32,120
it's they lost the war, but you know, they they reached,

4050
04:12:33,200 --> 04:12:35,879
they reached all of their objectives territorially. I mean, they

4051
04:12:35,920 --> 04:12:39,040
realized that that's not decisive and in terms of victory metrics.

4052
04:12:39,079 --> 04:12:40,200
Speaker 1: But you know.

4053
04:12:40,200 --> 04:12:43,760
Speaker 2: That that that that's that in them itself demoligitive. The

4054
04:12:43,799 --> 04:12:48,920
calculus was basically correct. I mean it uh it it goes.

4055
04:12:49,319 --> 04:12:52,120
It should go without saying. But another thing I wanted

4056
04:12:52,159 --> 04:12:54,159
to raise, Like a couple of guys in the comments,

4057
04:12:54,200 --> 04:12:57,680
they hear this a lot. They're like, well, you know,

4058
04:12:57,719 --> 04:13:00,639
the Wehrmacht lost the war because they were just everybody,

4059
04:13:00,639 --> 04:13:02,479
and they were doing these racist things and they were

4060
04:13:02,479 --> 04:13:06,399
like ethnically cleansing people. That did happen, particularly incident to

4061
04:13:06,440 --> 04:13:09,520
the Commissar order and other things. But you know, my

4062
04:13:09,600 --> 04:13:12,239
rebuttal of that man is that I and I don't

4063
04:13:12,280 --> 04:13:14,079
want to go too much outside the scope of the

4064
04:13:14,079 --> 04:13:17,040
Second World War, particularly the Os Front. But you know,

4065
04:13:17,079 --> 04:13:19,120
I read a lot about Pickville, which is where MELI

4066
04:13:19,159 --> 04:13:21,159
four was located, and I don't want to get into

4067
04:13:21,200 --> 04:13:23,639
some really detailed discussion of what the rules of engagement

4068
04:13:23,680 --> 04:13:28,280
were in Vietnam and what military law says about about

4069
04:13:28,360 --> 04:13:31,239
three fire zones, but Bli four was located in the

4070
04:13:31,280 --> 04:13:34,520
free fire zone. The people there had refused to evacuate.

4071
04:13:36,000 --> 04:13:38,600
There was an operational hub of the National Liberation Front,

4072
04:13:38,719 --> 04:13:42,120
you know, ak the viet Cong. When America Division arrived there,

4073
04:13:42,200 --> 04:13:44,600
they arrived there with the intent to annihilate that village.

4074
04:13:44,639 --> 04:13:47,200
And that's what they did. And this was above born

4075
04:13:47,360 --> 04:13:50,000
and stars and strikes. You know, the US Sarby newspaper,

4076
04:13:50,079 --> 04:13:52,440
they ran a story about it. America Division, you know,

4077
04:13:53,399 --> 04:13:56,120
assaulted Meli four, big victory. Oh yeah, you know, we

4078
04:13:56,639 --> 04:13:59,399
struck a blow against Victor Charlie. You know, it wasn't

4079
04:13:59,479 --> 04:14:03,959
until it wasn't until you know, a year and some

4080
04:14:04,000 --> 04:14:06,760
months later that you know, kind of really grew. Some

4081
04:14:06,920 --> 04:14:09,559
details got released by a couple of guys who were there,

4082
04:14:09,760 --> 04:14:11,879
you know, who began writing to a couple of anti

4083
04:14:11,920 --> 04:14:14,120
were senators about it. That it was splash to go

4084
04:14:14,120 --> 04:14:16,600
out to the Evening News. But my point is that

4085
04:14:17,000 --> 04:14:19,440
this is kind of the face of modern war, you know,

4086
04:14:19,600 --> 04:14:24,000
like Romanian and German infantry going into a Belarusian village

4087
04:14:24,559 --> 04:14:28,000
and and and you know and killing every killing every

4088
04:14:28,040 --> 04:14:31,719
commissar and every Jewish military age male. That's pretty horrible.

4089
04:14:31,799 --> 04:14:34,319
But I can give you just as many examples that

4090
04:14:34,360 --> 04:14:36,280
the French Army carried out in Algeria or the US

4091
04:14:36,399 --> 04:14:38,879
Army did in South Vietnam. I mean, I there's not

4092
04:14:39,000 --> 04:14:44,079
some like outlandish thing. And frankly two, you know, uh,

4093
04:14:44,280 --> 04:14:47,799
people in Kazakhstan, people in Tajikistan, people in Ukraine, people

4094
04:14:47,799 --> 04:14:50,920
in Belarus, people in Lati, Luthuaniana, Estonia, they joined the

4095
04:14:51,000 --> 04:14:55,559
vafann SS, they joined the Axis. Cause, you know, the

4096
04:14:55,559 --> 04:14:58,600
people forget this because now the regime is pretending that,

4097
04:14:58,680 --> 04:15:01,600
you know, the Ukrainians are you know, George Washington and

4098
04:15:01,600 --> 04:15:04,200
and the the Continental Army or whatever. But for the

4099
04:15:04,280 --> 04:15:07,120
last fifty years before that, you know, while we heard

4100
04:15:07,159 --> 04:15:09,040
was that Ukrainians are a bunch of awful brutes and

4101
04:15:09,120 --> 04:15:11,879
Nazis and they collaborated with you know, the Third Reich.

4102
04:15:12,639 --> 04:15:15,319
So I mean, it's depending on how people were treated

4103
04:15:15,399 --> 04:15:18,000
in theater. It depends on the people you were talking about,

4104
04:15:18,520 --> 04:15:22,200
It depends on what German formation was operational there. You know,

4105
04:15:22,239 --> 04:15:25,479
it depends on what year and month you were talking about.

4106
04:15:25,520 --> 04:15:27,000
I mean, there was not just one way. This is

4107
04:15:27,000 --> 04:15:31,040
the way that Germans treated civilian populations you know, they treated, uh,

4108
04:15:31,559 --> 04:15:34,520
they traded some civilian populations. It's like they would German people.

4109
04:15:34,760 --> 04:15:38,000
Some populations. Yeah, they they they they slaughtered them like animals.

4110
04:15:38,000 --> 04:15:42,840
But that's that's not strange, and it's a you know,

4111
04:15:42,920 --> 04:15:45,959
it does bear repeating, as I've said, and uh, we'll

4112
04:15:46,000 --> 04:15:49,479
get into this in the Nuremberg episode. But you know,

4113
04:15:49,559 --> 04:15:53,280
so that this is documented and these you know, after

4114
04:15:53,319 --> 04:15:57,680
the Soviet archives were thrown open in ninety one, you know,

4115
04:15:57,799 --> 04:16:00,159
Soviet like, by consertive estimate, the Soviet Union you know,

4116
04:16:00,200 --> 04:16:02,959
annihilated ten million people before a shot was fired in

4117
04:16:02,959 --> 04:16:05,760
the Second World War. I mean, yeah, I'm not gonna say, like,

4118
04:16:06,319 --> 04:16:08,399
you know that that's a good thing that the Wehrmacht

4119
04:16:08,399 --> 04:16:13,159
and the and the sss D were were slaughtering people,

4120
04:16:13,200 --> 04:16:15,959
including women and kids. But I mean it's kind of

4121
04:16:17,799 --> 04:16:21,680
it's you know, emphasizing you know, the instances a German

4122
04:16:21,719 --> 04:16:24,280
brutality and and and just kind of redacting the rest

4123
04:16:24,319 --> 04:16:26,440
of it. I mean, that's okay that that seems a

4124
04:16:26,440 --> 04:16:31,799
bit cynical and dishonest, but you know, that's that's my

4125
04:16:31,840 --> 04:16:33,559
take on that. And I mean, plus, it was I mean,

4126
04:16:33,559 --> 04:16:36,360
it was a total war. I was reading about I

4127
04:16:36,399 --> 04:16:39,799
was preparing some of my notes for our next episode

4128
04:16:39,879 --> 04:16:42,760
on the area bombing, you know, with then literally fifty

4129
04:16:42,799 --> 04:16:45,159
thousand people died in Hamburg or you know, all these

4130
04:16:45,200 --> 04:16:49,239
civilians over the course of two days. Like that's insane.

4131
04:16:49,440 --> 04:16:51,680
Like America is berserved of a couple thousand people die

4132
04:16:51,719 --> 04:16:54,120
on nine to eleven. And I'm not that's terrible, Okay,

4133
04:16:54,159 --> 04:16:57,760
I'm not saying that that's nothing or something, but I

4134
04:16:57,760 --> 04:16:59,799
mean you imagine a country, you know, like a third

4135
04:16:59,840 --> 04:17:02,879
the eyes America, losing fifty thousand people in one day,

4136
04:17:03,079 --> 04:17:05,879
like just literally having them like burned to death by incendiaries.

4137
04:17:05,920 --> 04:17:08,959
That's completely insane, you know, I mean, that's not There's

4138
04:17:09,000 --> 04:17:11,040
not any difference between you know, what the Germans doing

4139
04:17:11,079 --> 04:17:13,559
the Eastern Front and what the Royal Air Force and

4140
04:17:13,799 --> 04:17:15,920
US Army Air Corps were doing to people in places

4141
04:17:15,920 --> 04:17:16,920
like Hamburg and Dresden.

4142
04:17:17,479 --> 04:17:17,840
Speaker 1: There's not.

4143
04:17:18,639 --> 04:17:20,840
Speaker 2: And frankly, in fact, I mean, I'd rather get shot

4144
04:17:20,879 --> 04:17:23,040
in the face by the SS than like be burned

4145
04:17:23,040 --> 04:17:26,239
to death like in some basement in Dresden. I mean, frankly,

4146
04:17:26,280 --> 04:17:29,840
you know, if given a choice, which I really really

4147
04:17:29,840 --> 04:17:31,399
hope I would never be off with such a choice.

4148
04:17:31,440 --> 04:17:38,159
But that's uh, that's all. Uh, that's all I got

4149
04:17:38,200 --> 04:17:40,719
for this episode. And I didn't mean to get bogged

4150
04:17:40,760 --> 04:17:44,079
down so much in like minutia of like military science,

4151
04:17:44,159 --> 04:17:48,079
because it's not my wheelhouse, but it's important and I

4152
04:17:48,120 --> 04:17:51,520
think for context, that's kind of the evidence one must

4153
04:17:51,559 --> 04:17:54,719
present in order to rebut the popular myths. So I

4154
04:17:54,760 --> 04:17:57,360
hope that people found it informative and not too kind of,

4155
04:17:57,680 --> 04:18:01,000
you know, boring and down with minutia.

4156
04:18:02,280 --> 04:18:04,639
Speaker 1: No, there was a lot of meat in there, and.

4157
04:18:04,719 --> 04:18:08,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I appreciate that. But next well, if it's okay

4158
04:18:08,559 --> 04:18:10,360
with you, it's your show and I'm not for me

4159
04:18:10,399 --> 04:18:13,040
to dictate the program.

4160
04:18:13,280 --> 04:18:14,840
Speaker 1: What do you think the next next.

4161
04:18:14,639 --> 04:18:18,520
Speaker 2: Episode, I'd like to finish up Barbarossa and deal with

4162
04:18:18,639 --> 04:18:23,440
you know, the Western Allies war against the Reich, and

4163
04:18:23,680 --> 04:18:27,799
we'll get into things like Hamburg and Dresden. Then if

4164
04:18:27,799 --> 04:18:29,120
that's agreeable.

4165
04:18:28,959 --> 04:18:31,680
Speaker 1: That sounds good to me. That sounds good to me.

4166
04:18:32,000 --> 04:18:33,840
All right, give your plugs.

4167
04:18:34,319 --> 04:18:38,040
Speaker 2: Okay, you can find me at real Thomas seven seven

4168
04:18:38,159 --> 04:18:41,399
seven one word dot substack dot com. That's what my

4169
04:18:41,479 --> 04:18:44,280
podcast is. That's what my lawng form is about. Half

4170
04:18:44,319 --> 04:18:46,719
of it's free, that which is not it's only five

4171
04:18:46,719 --> 04:18:49,239
bucks a month, so don't be a hobo. You can

4172
04:18:49,239 --> 04:18:53,680
afford it. I just joined mister Trump's social media Truth

4173
04:18:53,760 --> 04:18:57,120
Social uh Knox. I love mister Trump. I mean, I

4174
04:18:57,159 --> 04:19:00,280
don't hate mister Trump either, but uh, some dear friends

4175
04:19:00,280 --> 04:19:03,000
of mine are there. I'm hoping that might develop into something.

4176
04:19:03,360 --> 04:19:05,760
But if you're there, you can follow me. I'm the

4177
04:19:05,920 --> 04:19:08,760
real Thomas seven seven seven. There. You can find me

4178
04:19:08,799 --> 04:19:15,239
on gab at Real Thomas seven seven seven And if

4179
04:19:15,239 --> 04:19:17,559
you want to contact me directly reach out and substack.

4180
04:19:17,600 --> 04:19:19,440
I'll drop an email on you and we will talk

4181
04:19:19,479 --> 04:19:22,360
about things. And thank you again, Pete.

4182
04:19:22,559 --> 04:19:28,760
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Till the next time. I want to

4183
04:19:28,760 --> 04:19:32,319
welcome everyone back to the Peak show. Thomas returns. We're

4184
04:19:32,360 --> 04:19:35,559
going to continue, Okay, yeah, thank you, Pete.

4185
04:19:36,719 --> 04:19:39,239
Speaker 2: I don't want to reiterate my gratitude everybody who supported

4186
04:19:39,239 --> 04:19:43,040
the series, and they's just been incredible support and feedback

4187
04:19:43,159 --> 04:19:46,120
and I that I find I'm very moved by that,

4188
04:19:46,399 --> 04:19:51,840
and that encourages me to keep going with this endeavor

4189
04:19:52,200 --> 04:19:54,719
and h and again, I appreciate you giving me a platform.

4190
04:19:54,760 --> 04:19:57,440
This has been really, really great. But I wanted to

4191
04:19:57,440 --> 04:20:00,239
talk a bit about today we got into kind of

4192
04:20:00,280 --> 04:20:03,680
the technical aspects of Barbarosa and and and rebutting some

4193
04:20:03,719 --> 04:20:07,520
of the myths about the military situation and how it resolved.

4194
04:20:08,000 --> 04:20:10,319
And I, as I indicated, I'm certainly not an expert

4195
04:20:10,319 --> 04:20:12,959
on military matters at all, and I've I've gotten no

4196
04:20:13,040 --> 04:20:16,520
military background or anything like that. What I wanted to

4197
04:20:16,559 --> 04:20:18,879
talk about today, I wanted to kind of deep dive

4198
04:20:18,959 --> 04:20:22,799
more into questions of zeitgeist. I'm not I can't think

4199
04:20:22,840 --> 04:20:24,799
of it that there's not like a term that's kind

4200
04:20:24,799 --> 04:20:30,719
of less uh exotic or or coverbsome to describe what

4201
04:20:30,760 --> 04:20:33,559
we're talking about in zeitgeist, you know, like literally the

4202
04:20:33,600 --> 04:20:37,120
spirit of the age or you know, like the kind

4203
04:20:37,120 --> 04:20:40,719
of the kind of animating elements of the epoch and

4204
04:20:40,760 --> 04:20:43,760
which people live that that that that that kind of

4205
04:20:43,799 --> 04:20:48,520
serves to conframe conceptually, you know, uh, the way people

4206
04:20:48,600 --> 04:20:51,159
view events and their role in events, and you know

4207
04:20:51,239 --> 04:20:53,559
what what what kind of what kind of comes to

4208
04:20:53,639 --> 04:20:56,840
inform uh, you know, values, and particularly when we're talking

4209
04:20:56,840 --> 04:21:01,639
about conditions of crises, conditions of crisis, you know, the

4210
04:21:01,680 --> 04:21:03,920
most kind of the most kind of punctuated and and

4211
04:21:04,120 --> 04:21:08,719
mortal iteration of a political crisis being general war. Uh,

4212
04:21:08,840 --> 04:21:11,000
that's that's kind of the most uh that that's kind

4213
04:21:11,000 --> 04:21:14,479
of the most intense example of uh, you know, people

4214
04:21:14,520 --> 04:21:18,399
being caught up in in apockable events that uh, you know,

4215
04:21:18,680 --> 04:21:22,200
in terms of symbolic psychology, you know, in terms of uh,

4216
04:21:22,600 --> 04:21:26,319
in terms of people's collective ambitions and fears, you know.

4217
04:21:26,479 --> 04:21:28,920
Un it can be said the constitute a sort of

4218
04:21:28,920 --> 04:21:33,959
cohesive you know, uh like essence you know, or spirit

4219
04:21:34,120 --> 04:21:36,840
of of of that epoch. And you've got to you've

4220
04:21:36,840 --> 04:21:39,959
got to understand, even if you're not a Hegelian like

4221
04:21:39,959 --> 04:21:41,799
like I am. And and even if you're kind of

4222
04:21:41,799 --> 04:21:44,920
like a diet in the world as secularist, you know,

4223
04:21:45,000 --> 04:21:48,959
to understand to understand the the German Soviet War, you

4224
04:21:48,959 --> 04:21:51,840
you've really got to understand the uh, this kind of

4225
04:21:51,840 --> 04:21:54,559
collision of worldview is okay. And and you know, even

4226
04:21:54,559 --> 04:21:56,440
if even if you're even if you're the consummate like

4227
04:21:56,479 --> 04:21:59,000
secular humanists, you probably wouldn't be watching the series. But

4228
04:21:59,000 --> 04:22:01,440
if you are, it's of okay, you know, you can

4229
04:22:01,520 --> 04:22:03,559
you can you can attribute what I what I what

4230
04:22:03,600 --> 04:22:06,479
I'm talking about to the you know, to to to

4231
04:22:06,600 --> 04:22:10,959
the phenomena of psychology. Okay, you know, but there there

4232
04:22:11,040 --> 04:22:13,360
is such a thing as you know, mass psychology, and

4233
04:22:13,440 --> 04:22:15,760
if you wanna, if you want to view it that way, fine,

4234
04:22:15,840 --> 04:22:18,280
but you know, what I'm talking about is a real

4235
04:22:18,319 --> 04:22:22,200
phenomena and the fact that things like you know, the

4236
04:22:22,200 --> 04:22:24,280
the war between the Reich and the Soviet Union happened

4237
04:22:24,319 --> 04:22:26,840
or a testament to that. And what I want to

4238
04:22:26,840 --> 04:22:31,719
get into today is, uh, you know how uh how

4239
04:22:31,840 --> 04:22:34,959
uh how the government of the Third Reich became a

4240
04:22:34,959 --> 04:22:40,840
truly European government in part because uh, there was apockle

4241
04:22:40,920 --> 04:22:43,600
changes underway in in in the manner in which you know,

4242
04:22:44,000 --> 04:22:48,639
people politically organize, and it was the epoch of the

4243
04:22:48,680 --> 04:22:52,799
superpower was nascent and looming. But also you know, the

4244
04:22:52,879 --> 04:22:55,239
challenge for them by the Soviet Union, you know, which

4245
04:22:55,319 --> 04:22:59,639
was both a burgining communist superpower. You know, this ideology

4246
04:22:59,799 --> 04:23:03,040
was was in in dialectical It was in violent dialectical

4247
04:23:03,040 --> 04:23:06,120
opposition to Europe as an idea and as a civilization,

4248
04:23:06,639 --> 04:23:10,079
but also ethnically and racially, if you want to think

4249
04:23:10,079 --> 04:23:12,479
about it in those terms. You know, the the Soviet

4250
04:23:12,520 --> 04:23:15,879
Union represented kind of the Oriental other, you know, and uh,

4251
04:23:16,200 --> 04:23:21,440
it's it's a catalyzing force, uh for unity obviously for

4252
04:23:21,600 --> 04:23:25,280
uh inconceptual in broad conceptual terms. If you know, if

4253
04:23:25,280 --> 04:23:28,600
a people are are confronted by uh by the other,

4254
04:23:29,159 --> 04:23:32,000
you know, uh in in in political and cultural and

4255
04:23:32,000 --> 04:23:34,120
and and ethnic terms. You know, like if you want,

4256
04:23:34,200 --> 04:23:37,360
like an ancient example, you know, the Greek city states, uh,

4257
04:23:37,559 --> 04:23:39,760
you know what like a catalyzing element for them to

4258
04:23:39,879 --> 04:23:42,239
you know, to come to view themselves as Greeks. You know,

4259
04:23:42,440 --> 04:23:45,360
was uh was was the challenge posed by the Persan Empire.

4260
04:23:45,840 --> 04:23:48,159
You know that that's and I know that that's something

4261
04:23:48,159 --> 04:23:51,319
that you know, uh uh military sociologist types like to

4262
04:23:51,360 --> 04:23:55,799
invoke a lot. But so we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna,

4263
04:23:56,159 --> 04:23:58,079
we're gonna dive into it a little bit forgive that

4264
04:23:58,200 --> 04:24:03,799
kind of long winded uh uh prologue. But I think

4265
04:24:03,799 --> 04:24:09,159
it was uh. I think I think it's essential the

4266
04:24:09,360 --> 04:24:12,319
uh the idea of the idea of a European man,

4267
04:24:12,559 --> 04:24:14,920
you know, kind of in lieu of uh, you know,

4268
04:24:15,520 --> 04:24:19,680
people politically identifying with with with petted nationalisms. This wasn't

4269
04:24:19,760 --> 04:24:21,959
something that that that just came about, you know in

4270
04:24:22,120 --> 04:24:25,239
nineteen forty one, is as German armies were fighting We're

4271
04:24:25,239 --> 04:24:27,959
fighting the communists, you know, in the Eastern Front. Or something.

4272
04:24:27,959 --> 04:24:31,000
I mean, this underscores all kinds of cultural artifacts and

4273
04:24:31,920 --> 04:24:35,120
of and uh in activity you know in Europe, you know,

4274
04:24:35,159 --> 04:24:38,159
going back centuries. You know, like there's there's there's there's

4275
04:24:38,159 --> 04:24:41,079
a there's there's echoes of that and everything from Beethoven

4276
04:24:41,159 --> 04:24:44,239
and Wagner to uh, you know, to go to uh

4277
04:24:44,280 --> 04:24:47,719
you know, to Hegel and like Nietzsche like overtly talked

4278
04:24:47,719 --> 04:24:49,159
about it. You know, what kind of it's to good

4279
04:24:49,159 --> 04:24:52,399
European in conceptual political terms, and what does this mean

4280
04:24:52,399 --> 04:24:55,600
for the future moving forward? And of course you know

4281
04:24:55,680 --> 04:24:59,200
the uh the uh these kind of seminal personages and

4282
04:24:59,200 --> 04:25:01,159
in the in the in the otter age, you know,

4283
04:25:01,319 --> 04:25:04,639
like first and almost Napoleon, you know, and then Napoleon

4284
04:25:04,719 --> 04:25:07,120
started uh, you know as a Corsican became you know

4285
04:25:07,440 --> 04:25:10,399
or Stardinian rather like he he became a Frenchman, and

4286
04:25:10,399 --> 04:25:12,280
then you know, he began thinking and you know, European

4287
04:25:12,360 --> 04:25:15,280
civilizational terms, and and like Adolf Hitler, you know, he

4288
04:25:15,319 --> 04:25:18,200
commanded armies, you know, to the east, you know, and

4289
04:25:18,399 --> 04:25:21,079
is is under the under the banner of a of

4290
04:25:21,120 --> 04:25:24,840
a of of a European imperialism, you know, not not

4291
04:25:24,840 --> 04:25:26,840
not not not just under the under the flag of

4292
04:25:26,840 --> 04:25:29,000
France or or for the glory of you know, the

4293
04:25:29,040 --> 04:25:31,719
French monarch or anything like that. You know, you Napoleon

4294
04:25:31,840 --> 04:25:33,680
was the emperor of Europe. I mean, what would what

4295
04:25:33,760 --> 04:25:35,559
he aspire to do? So that this wasn't some sort

4296
04:25:35,600 --> 04:25:39,399
of contrivance. You know, if you can motivate uh, if

4297
04:25:39,440 --> 04:25:41,399
you can motivate hundred thousands of man to like march

4298
04:25:41,719 --> 04:25:44,680
march eastward to conquer Moscow like Napoleon did, you know,

4299
04:25:44,719 --> 04:25:46,600
You're not You're not dealing in something that's not deeply

4300
04:25:46,600 --> 04:25:48,360
felt by people, or some kind of fiction that you

4301
04:25:48,399 --> 04:25:53,879
just contrive at a convenience. Okay, the uh, as I said,

4302
04:25:53,920 --> 04:25:58,719
I think that during transitional phases historically apocaly that's when

4303
04:25:58,760 --> 04:26:01,760
these that's that that's that's when kinds of symbolic aspects

4304
04:26:01,760 --> 04:26:04,959
of zeitgeist, you know, and especially in terms of identity,

4305
04:26:05,079 --> 04:26:09,680
like become most poignant and powerful. And that's that's what

4306
04:26:09,719 --> 04:26:11,360
FASc saying about the Third Reich, Like, I mean the

4307
04:26:11,360 --> 04:26:14,399
point in one of our earlier episodes that if you

4308
04:26:14,399 --> 04:26:16,799
want to understand the character of made Off Hitler politically,

4309
04:26:17,600 --> 04:26:19,760
you've got to you've got to sort of unpack his

4310
04:26:19,840 --> 04:26:23,360
December eleventh, speech to the Reichstag, which was, among other things,

4311
04:26:23,399 --> 04:26:25,159
the speech in which he asked for a declaration of

4312
04:26:25,159 --> 04:26:27,440
war against the United States, you know, in the way

4313
04:26:27,520 --> 04:26:30,639
of Pearl Harbor. Just a few days subsequent and one

4314
04:26:30,639 --> 04:26:32,719
of these Hitler said, you know, Hitler was the Habsburg

4315
04:26:32,799 --> 04:26:36,280
Austrian Catholic. But when he was talking about the situation

4316
04:26:36,440 --> 04:26:39,760
on the Eastern Front, where you know, Army Group Center

4317
04:26:39,959 --> 04:26:42,239
was being halted at the gates of Moscow, you know,

4318
04:26:42,280 --> 04:26:44,600
he said, we meaning the German people, you know, like

4319
04:26:44,639 --> 04:26:47,200
we faced you know, these these these dire straits before

4320
04:26:47,239 --> 04:26:50,159
in eighteen twelve. But what happened in eighteen twelve, you know,

4321
04:26:50,200 --> 04:26:53,760
the Prussian Army was fighting with Napoleon at the gates

4322
04:26:53,760 --> 04:26:57,639
of Moscow, and they were the only German principality or kingdom,

4323
04:26:57,879 --> 04:27:01,639
you know that that sided with the Okay, so hitlarly

4324
04:27:01,680 --> 04:27:04,360
halts through Austria, and you know, he was invoking the uh.

4325
04:27:04,520 --> 04:27:09,360
He was invoking a Prussian uh, a Prussian historical uh uh,

4326
04:27:09,959 --> 04:27:13,440
a Prussian historical a seminal Prussian historical event. And he was,

4327
04:27:13,520 --> 04:27:15,000
you know, he was he was assimilating that and the

4328
04:27:15,079 --> 04:27:18,000
you know, the the the identity of Germanness. And that's

4329
04:27:18,040 --> 04:27:21,399
remarkable and uh that wasn't contrived. Hit literally believed that,

4330
04:27:21,760 --> 04:27:23,360
you know, he really believed that there was like a

4331
04:27:23,440 --> 04:27:28,680
German identity that that superseded these these uh, these petty regionalisms.

4332
04:27:28,719 --> 04:27:31,559
And and even more than that, as time went on, he,

4333
04:27:31,680 --> 04:27:34,360
like Napoleon, he came to he came to consider himself,

4334
04:27:34,360 --> 04:27:37,120
you know, a European, a European warlord, you know, European

4335
04:27:37,159 --> 04:27:40,040
would be uh like emperor, like a common man who

4336
04:27:40,079 --> 04:27:42,440
was sended to those heights. Albeit he he didn't have

4337
04:27:42,520 --> 04:27:45,799
any uh, he didn't have uh he he didn't have

4338
04:27:45,840 --> 04:27:48,239
the same kind of retensions as as Napoleon, but he

4339
04:27:48,239 --> 04:27:51,600
did have certain messianic pretensions and uh that can't be

4340
04:27:51,680 --> 04:27:56,319
denied in more, uh, in more and more concrete terms.

4341
04:27:56,559 --> 04:27:58,239
If you look at the if you look at the

4342
04:27:58,319 --> 04:28:00,520
kind of the military leadership of the Third Reich, and

4343
04:28:00,600 --> 04:28:03,879
if you look at it's military culture as time went on,

4344
04:28:04,479 --> 04:28:06,200
there was there was kind of these there's these kind

4345
04:28:06,239 --> 04:28:08,479
of oppositional tendencies. You know, you had the old you

4346
04:28:08,479 --> 04:28:11,120
had the old Prussian officer corps, and you had the

4347
04:28:11,159 --> 04:28:15,440
old kind of uh you know, Bavarian like younger elite

4348
04:28:16,000 --> 04:28:19,799
you know that uh that that that had uh incredible

4349
04:28:19,840 --> 04:28:22,920
swayer with the general staff and still an incredible cultural power.

4350
04:28:23,479 --> 04:28:25,719
But then you also had you had you had the

4351
04:28:26,159 --> 04:28:29,000
s S which was very egalitarian and and very much

4352
04:28:29,040 --> 04:28:32,239
model like a modern army. Okay, you know, like uh

4353
04:28:32,559 --> 04:28:35,479
it was. It was very much merit based. You know,

4354
04:28:35,639 --> 04:28:38,239
there was battlefield commissions were very common. People could be

4355
04:28:38,280 --> 04:28:41,440
promoted rapidly if they selled in combat. And ultimately just

4356
04:28:41,440 --> 04:28:44,559
loll get into in a minute, was a European army,

4357
04:28:44,920 --> 04:28:49,200
you know it truly was it? Uh it uh? And

4358
04:28:49,239 --> 04:28:50,520
if you look at the if you look at the

4359
04:28:50,520 --> 04:28:53,799
tensions within national social studiology, you know, like we talked

4360
04:28:53,799 --> 04:28:56,280
about before, like one of the ironies of of uh

4361
04:28:56,600 --> 04:29:00,639
of when when people talk cast cast aspersions on the

4362
04:29:00,719 --> 04:29:04,520
kind of biological racialism of the Third Reich that was

4363
04:29:04,559 --> 04:29:07,959
really kind of an emulation against precedent of of of

4364
04:29:08,079 --> 04:29:11,040
the Anglophone world. You know, there's a kind of Darwinist rationalism,

4365
04:29:11,079 --> 04:29:14,319
like defining race is this kind of biological phenomenon and

4366
04:29:14,760 --> 04:29:19,799
describing politics and and uh anesthetic preference and culture and

4367
04:29:19,840 --> 04:29:21,760
in terms of things that are reducible to you know,

4368
04:29:21,879 --> 04:29:27,000
rationally quantifiable things you know it's stemming from biology. Like

4369
04:29:27,000 --> 04:29:29,719
that's that's not a German or a continental tendency. Okay,

4370
04:29:29,799 --> 04:29:32,399
that's that's very much ah, like I said, promotion an

4371
04:29:32,440 --> 04:29:37,920
anglophone rationalist tendency. But opposite that, you know, you had,

4372
04:29:37,959 --> 04:29:42,680
you had this very kind of metaphysical tradition that in

4373
04:29:42,719 --> 04:29:45,959
the case that Germany you know, goes back to to

4374
04:29:45,959 --> 04:29:49,680
to to a theologian like heterotogsgalologians like mais directors. I like,

4375
04:29:49,719 --> 04:29:52,040
it's they're a hydro to have been like in the

4376
04:29:52,079 --> 04:29:54,680
Advain you know, uh, the idea of you know what

4377
04:29:54,680 --> 04:29:57,159
what this kind of oncological idea of you know what

4378
04:29:57,200 --> 04:30:00,520
it what like what there being is like literally being,

4379
04:30:00,879 --> 04:30:05,319
you know, like that that central that sensuous presence of

4380
04:30:05,319 --> 04:30:07,760
of of life and how and how that and how

4381
04:30:07,760 --> 04:30:10,840
that has transmitted across generations, you know, to form a

4382
04:30:11,559 --> 04:30:16,120
kind of a kind of conceptual core of consciousness. That's

4383
04:30:16,239 --> 04:30:19,399
that's not that that's not restricted to individual lives, you know,

4384
04:30:19,520 --> 04:30:23,239
like it it's it's literally like an ongoing kind of

4385
04:30:23,239 --> 04:30:26,280
stream of consciousness. It's it's about to describe these things

4386
04:30:26,319 --> 04:30:29,479
and some things lost in translation. But it doesn't matter.

4387
04:30:29,520 --> 04:30:30,959
We don't need to We don't. We don't we don't

4388
04:30:30,959 --> 04:30:33,319
need to really concisely define that for our purposes here,

4389
04:30:33,479 --> 04:30:35,840
Like what the point is that, you know, it's an

4390
04:30:35,879 --> 04:30:39,040
example of these kind of like oppositional tendencies within the

4391
04:30:39,079 --> 04:30:42,200
same political culture that over to the or to the

4392
04:30:42,200 --> 04:30:45,319
fact that you know, the juncture at which national socialism

4393
04:30:45,360 --> 04:30:48,319
emerged in and and and then the point at which

4394
04:30:48,440 --> 04:30:50,959
you know, the the third or IICH and specifically the

4395
04:30:51,040 --> 04:30:53,719
Hitler regime emerged. You know that this was a period

4396
04:30:53,760 --> 04:30:57,559
of a profound apocaal transition and and these punctuated kind

4397
04:30:57,600 --> 04:31:04,000
of upheavals and things that uh, Richard Landever, I he's

4398
04:31:04,040 --> 04:31:06,280
a guy who's he's kind of the seminal story in

4399
04:31:06,319 --> 04:31:08,479
the VAF and SS and I cannot remember the damn

4400
04:31:08,639 --> 04:31:11,920
name of it. But he had this publication that uh

4401
04:31:12,479 --> 04:31:14,840
was dedicated to you know, unit histories and all kinds

4402
04:31:14,840 --> 04:31:18,559
of things of the SS with with with a particular

4403
04:31:18,600 --> 04:31:22,200
emphasis on the foreign legions of it. And he actually, uh,

4404
04:31:22,239 --> 04:31:24,639
he actually had some kind of fun role official role

4405
04:31:24,760 --> 04:31:27,680
in in the pro in the in the preeminent veterans

4406
04:31:27,760 --> 04:31:30,319
organization until it, you know, became defunked going to the

4407
04:31:30,319 --> 04:31:32,520
fact that they just you know, weren't weren't any members

4408
04:31:32,600 --> 04:31:35,959
left going to old age and things. But he's a

4409
04:31:36,079 --> 04:31:38,479
he's he's aggregated a huge amount of data about the

4410
04:31:38,600 --> 04:31:41,559
vaf S S. And if people think I'm overstating the

4411
04:31:41,600 --> 04:31:43,760
fact there was a European army like I pulled Land,

4412
04:31:43,799 --> 04:31:49,120
there's data and uh Western European uh in in in

4413
04:31:49,280 --> 04:31:53,959
Western Europe. Uh. You know there's fifty five thousand volunteers

4414
04:31:53,959 --> 04:31:56,879
from Holland alone, you know, the Baltic states and the

4415
04:31:56,920 --> 04:32:00,840
Soviet nationalities, Uh, there was one hundred thous and volunteers.

4416
04:32:00,879 --> 04:32:03,239
You know, ethnic Germans from outside of the right proper

4417
04:32:03,360 --> 04:32:06,200
its three hundred thousand men you know, from the Balkans

4418
04:32:06,239 --> 04:32:09,639
and UH and UH and other Slavic ethnicities. You know,

4419
04:32:09,639 --> 04:32:13,879
there's over one hundred thousand, one hundred thousand UH volunteers.

4420
04:32:13,879 --> 04:32:16,399
You know that that's not a you know, of course,

4421
04:32:16,479 --> 04:32:18,479
like you know, the bulk of of of of of

4422
04:32:18,600 --> 04:32:21,559
forces and being by the war's end were still Germans

4423
04:32:21,600 --> 04:32:23,319
from the right. It was you know, four hundred thousand,

4424
04:32:23,600 --> 04:32:26,040
you know, plurality, not a wrong majority of men and

4425
04:32:26,040 --> 04:32:28,959
in wearing the uniform of of the SS of often

4426
04:32:29,079 --> 04:32:31,639
SS but you know they can't it can't be said

4427
04:32:31,639 --> 04:32:34,360
that that was that that was anything but a European force,

4428
04:32:34,799 --> 04:32:36,440
you know, and then and that was sight unseen since

4429
04:32:36,479 --> 04:32:40,559
the Crusades. And that's that's that's an interesting Spanglerian point

4430
04:32:40,719 --> 04:32:42,879
that I know some of the some of the some

4431
04:32:42,959 --> 04:32:45,680
of the subscribers will will find really poignant. You know.

4432
04:32:45,879 --> 04:32:48,559
Spangler made a big point of uh, you know, the

4433
04:32:48,719 --> 04:32:51,719
the era of the Crusader era, you know, uh, as

4434
04:32:51,920 --> 04:32:53,799
as as being you know, kind of when the idea

4435
04:32:54,040 --> 04:32:56,680
when when when Europe as a kind of self conscious

4436
04:32:56,719 --> 04:33:00,760
culture form, you know, ossified, you know, and uh, gradually

4437
04:33:00,840 --> 04:33:03,200
this kind of gradually is broke down over time, and

4438
04:33:03,399 --> 04:33:05,919
uh it reached kind of the diseenal of its fracturing,

4439
04:33:06,040 --> 04:33:08,200
you know, with with the Enlightenment and and the kind

4440
04:33:08,200 --> 04:33:14,919
of rationalist uh, you know, the pre eminence of rationalist political, political,

4441
04:33:15,439 --> 04:33:18,560
and cultural tendencies. You know, that's when these that that's

4442
04:33:18,680 --> 04:33:21,479
that that that's when these kinds of uh, that's when

4443
04:33:21,479 --> 04:33:25,799
this kind of petty statism became, uh became, uh became

4444
04:33:25,880 --> 04:33:28,799
paramount over European identity. I mean, it's a gradual process,

4445
04:33:28,880 --> 04:33:31,680
but that uh, it's most people have kind of the

4446
04:33:31,720 --> 04:33:34,840
opposite conception of how it's developed. But you know, the UH,

4447
04:33:34,919 --> 04:33:38,000
it really is kind of an effort to pigeonhole identity

4448
04:33:38,040 --> 04:33:41,319
into uh in the kind of rationalists failure structure. You know,

4449
04:33:41,319 --> 04:33:42,840
there's something you can try it about that, you know,

4450
04:33:42,840 --> 04:33:45,919
if anything can try it's that kind of pettic nationalism.

4451
04:33:46,040 --> 04:33:47,759
It's not it's not it's not the idea of a

4452
04:33:47,959 --> 04:33:51,840
of a European man as a historical uh as as

4453
04:33:51,919 --> 04:34:00,200
as historically present uh, you know personage anyway, moving on, uh. Yeah,

4454
04:34:01,919 --> 04:34:03,439
So that's the way the character. You know, that's the

4455
04:34:03,439 --> 04:34:06,400
way you've got to understand the way the Germans viewed

4456
04:34:08,040 --> 04:34:12,000
the Soviet threat and the way Europeans viewed their situation

4457
04:34:12,439 --> 04:34:14,840
in the world in Jewish strategic terms as well as

4458
04:34:14,840 --> 04:34:19,119
in existential cultural terms. You know, they they viewed correctly.

4459
04:34:19,200 --> 04:34:21,439
In my opinion, I don't see how this can be denied.

4460
04:34:22,000 --> 04:34:25,919
They they're there, they were under existential threat, like their

4461
04:34:25,959 --> 04:34:29,520
form of life was was was being threatened with annihilation.

4462
04:34:30,240 --> 04:34:32,279
You know. Part of this was kind of the U,

4463
04:34:32,919 --> 04:34:36,439
the UH, the the the ideologies that were becoming dominant.

4464
04:34:36,840 --> 04:34:40,840
You know, if the kind of rationalists, you know, capitalist ideology,

4465
04:34:40,959 --> 04:34:43,159
which you know, in the in the national socialist view

4466
04:34:43,400 --> 04:34:46,799
went hand in glove with a with with with with

4467
04:34:46,799 --> 04:34:50,279
with with the Jewish world of intellectual existence, which was actuomatically,

4468
04:34:50,479 --> 04:34:52,720
you know, hostile in the most in the most uh,

4469
04:34:53,240 --> 04:34:56,240
most aggressive terms to Europe, you know. And and opposite

4470
04:34:56,240 --> 04:34:59,200
that was you know this uh this uh, this tendency

4471
04:34:59,240 --> 04:35:01,680
towards bullshit is them which sought to quite literally like

4472
04:35:01,759 --> 04:35:05,200
eradicate you know, uh the past and full and and

4473
04:35:05,240 --> 04:35:08,680
remove man from history entirely, you know, and uh and

4474
04:35:08,840 --> 04:35:12,040
uh and and and and and and create a new

4475
04:35:12,119 --> 04:35:13,959
and and created and create a new kind of reality

4476
04:35:14,040 --> 04:35:16,520
of life that that that was not encumbered, in their

4477
04:35:16,599 --> 04:35:20,400
view by by any trappings of culture uh or historical

4478
04:35:20,479 --> 04:35:23,840
uh existence. The the the ultimate ambition of Bolshevism was

4479
04:35:23,880 --> 04:35:28,799
literally to end history. And uh that's uh the as

4480
04:35:29,240 --> 04:35:32,560
the the ultimate consequence of that is uh is essentially

4481
04:35:32,599 --> 04:35:34,840
the murder of culture. And like if you murder culture

4482
04:35:35,360 --> 04:35:38,840
and you remove people from from uh from from these

4483
04:35:38,919 --> 04:35:41,599
kinds of forms of culture, like you're you're basically marooning

4484
04:35:41,639 --> 04:35:43,279
them in a in in in a in a kind

4485
04:35:43,319 --> 04:35:46,799
of spiritual sense, in their own in their own individual lives,

4486
04:35:47,360 --> 04:35:49,119
and uh, you're kind of your robbing their lives of

4487
04:35:49,200 --> 04:35:50,759
meaning as well as their deaths of meaning. And I

4488
04:35:50,759 --> 04:35:52,159
mean that's a little bit outside of the scope of

4489
04:35:52,200 --> 04:35:55,119
what we're talking about, but this is very very deeply

4490
04:35:55,119 --> 04:35:58,759
felt by people, by Europeans, Okay, And this is also

4491
04:35:58,840 --> 04:36:02,680
important because we the one of the tasks of the

4492
04:36:02,720 --> 04:36:05,680
revisionists is is the is the is it disabuse people

4493
04:36:05,680 --> 04:36:08,959
this idea that you know, by invading and waiting this

4494
04:36:09,000 --> 04:36:12,479
annihilation war against Europe America is liberating Europe? Like what

4495
04:36:12,479 --> 04:36:14,840
what was it liberating it from? Was it liberating it

4496
04:36:14,840 --> 04:36:17,279
from itself? Like what? You know that that doesn't make

4497
04:36:17,279 --> 04:36:20,439
any sense. But beyond that, you know where this isn't

4498
04:36:20,479 --> 04:36:22,159
just some kind of high fluting idea that you know,

4499
04:36:22,240 --> 04:36:25,000
revision has had or something like. European people didn't view

4500
04:36:25,040 --> 04:36:28,759
it that way, you know, and in very concrete terms,

4501
04:36:29,159 --> 04:36:31,560
you've got to understand what exactly was happening is the

4502
04:36:31,599 --> 04:36:34,840
Red Army got the upper hand on the battlefield and

4503
04:36:34,919 --> 04:36:38,720
began there began their their counter offensive into Europe proper.

4504
04:36:39,520 --> 04:36:43,799
Now it's uh, it's uh. I'm not gonna sit here,

4505
04:36:43,840 --> 04:36:46,639
and the point of what I'm gonna relay here is

4506
04:36:46,799 --> 04:36:50,360
not to cast some kind of shadow on on Russian people,

4507
04:36:50,439 --> 04:36:53,080
or to say that, oh, well, you know the third right,

4508
04:36:53,159 --> 04:36:55,159
you know, you call the libright evil. The Soviet Union

4509
04:36:55,240 --> 04:36:57,840
is way more evil. It's not what we're talking about, Okay,

4510
04:36:57,959 --> 04:37:01,520
I mean, perhaps that's true. But what we're talking about

4511
04:37:01,520 --> 04:37:04,520
is we're talking about people's conceptual horizon in that historical

4512
04:37:04,599 --> 04:37:09,240
moment and what they what what what what they were facing,

4513
04:37:10,240 --> 04:37:12,959
you know, not just h not not just in in

4514
04:37:13,240 --> 04:37:17,279
what they feared coming to to uh to pass, but

4515
04:37:17,279 --> 04:37:19,680
what actually was coming to pass, and and in in

4516
04:37:19,720 --> 04:37:25,520
the most you know, mortally critical terms imaginable now because

4517
04:37:25,520 --> 04:37:28,240
as people probably know, you know, a lot of what

4518
04:37:28,479 --> 04:37:31,680
is now Poland was uh was was Germany. You know,

4519
04:37:31,720 --> 04:37:33,680
at the time of the Third Reich, you know, in

4520
04:37:33,720 --> 04:37:37,759
East Prussia was uh which no longer exists. That was

4521
04:37:37,759 --> 04:37:41,080
always the eastern most garrison of uh of of Germany.

4522
04:37:41,240 --> 04:37:43,639
That this is going back six hundred years, you know it.

4523
04:37:43,840 --> 04:37:49,799
Uh This wasn't just a modern a modern contrivance. UH Membros. Dwarf.

4524
04:37:50,279 --> 04:37:54,319
East Prussia was uh was uh was was was a

4525
04:37:54,360 --> 04:37:58,520
garrison city within a garrison state, Okay, And the galleighter

4526
04:37:58,520 --> 04:38:02,200
of members Dwarf was a man in coke and he

4527
04:38:02,240 --> 04:38:05,200
was a very very hardline national socialist, and I mean

4528
04:38:05,279 --> 04:38:07,720
which made sense because the man that would be appointed

4529
04:38:08,680 --> 04:38:10,520
for that role would obviously have to be a man

4530
04:38:10,520 --> 04:38:13,759
who's very committed to the national socialist vision. Owing the

4531
04:38:13,799 --> 04:38:22,479
geostrategic situation. Now, on October twentieth, the Red Army, the

4532
04:38:22,560 --> 04:38:25,319
Red Army penetrated the Third Right proper for the first

4533
04:38:25,360 --> 04:38:30,080
time when they assaulted members Dwarf and Eric Coke. He

4534
04:38:30,159 --> 04:38:32,479
declared that no true German would allow himself even the

4535
04:38:32,520 --> 04:38:34,840
thought that He's Russia could fall into Russian hands. Those

4536
04:38:34,840 --> 04:38:39,080
are his exact words. And any able bodied male civilian

4537
04:38:39,240 --> 04:38:45,319
who a civilian civilian or military who tried to flee

4538
04:38:45,560 --> 04:38:51,720
or retreat or evacuate Eric Coke imposed a penalty of

4539
04:38:51,759 --> 04:38:53,560
a death sentence for it. Okay, I mean this was

4540
04:38:53,560 --> 04:38:56,159
a critical things were like, this was literally the line

4541
04:38:56,200 --> 04:39:01,599
in the sand. And after several days intense combat, uh

4542
04:39:01,759 --> 04:39:05,080
Berlin had lost contact with Membersdorf. And you know, this

4543
04:39:05,200 --> 04:39:08,319
was the time when information only traveled as fast as

4544
04:39:08,319 --> 04:39:12,040
a radio or a telegraph could convey it. And if

4545
04:39:12,040 --> 04:39:15,400
those if those commanding control lines were down, uh nobody,

4546
04:39:15,520 --> 04:39:18,520
uh nobody was aware of the They couldn't build an

4547
04:39:18,520 --> 04:39:22,159
exceptual picture or know what was happening, not necessarily as

4548
04:39:22,159 --> 04:39:26,279
an intense combat. The Fairmont, they really regroup, counter attack,

4549
04:39:26,360 --> 04:39:28,319
and they drove the Red Army back across the East

4550
04:39:28,319 --> 04:39:30,680
Prussian to frontier, you know. And this is a great victory,

4551
04:39:30,720 --> 04:39:34,119
and coming as it did at the follow ninety forty four,

4552
04:39:34,159 --> 04:39:36,439
it was a much needed, uh, it was a much

4553
04:39:36,479 --> 04:39:39,759
needed morale booster, Okay, because what what what would lay

4554
04:39:39,799 --> 04:39:43,000
ahead was uh the Vermont was charged, you know, Vermont

4555
04:39:43,080 --> 04:39:45,560
that had been utterly hollowed out but still had a

4556
04:39:45,599 --> 04:39:48,479
handful of crack units. They were charged with fending off

4557
04:39:48,520 --> 04:39:51,080
the entirety of the Red Army as well as UH

4558
04:39:51,279 --> 04:39:54,520
doing everything they could. Uh. The force uh Li sungky

4559
04:39:54,560 --> 04:39:57,200
impassed with the Western allies, you know, in the preceding

4560
04:39:57,240 --> 04:40:01,240
summer had assaulted and and and indated France and we're

4561
04:40:01,240 --> 04:40:05,000
now uh pushing their way through Belgium to uh the

4562
04:40:05,119 --> 04:40:08,439
pierce the heart of the Reich itself. Now back to

4563
04:40:08,599 --> 04:40:11,680
uh narras Dwarf. What did the Third Reich uh or

4564
04:40:11,720 --> 04:40:13,919
what what did the bear amount didn't cover when they

4565
04:40:14,040 --> 04:40:17,680
when they when they liberated members Dwarf, Uh, they found

4566
04:40:17,840 --> 04:40:20,759
uh an orgy for lack of a better way. He

4567
04:40:20,840 --> 04:40:26,720
characterized it a mass homicide and torture. The Heinrich Amberger

4568
04:40:26,840 --> 04:40:28,560
he was a junior officer, and he was a He

4569
04:40:28,599 --> 04:40:32,759
was a physician with the German army. And his testimony

4570
04:40:32,959 --> 04:40:35,919
he was in he was a pretty prolific diarist and

4571
04:40:35,919 --> 04:40:39,080
and and he maintained war journals. And uh, being that

4572
04:40:39,159 --> 04:40:41,080
he was a doctor, some people considered him to be,

4573
04:40:41,200 --> 04:40:44,880
you know, more of a respectable witness than others. He

4574
04:40:44,959 --> 04:40:48,159
testified the fact that uh when they entered uh members

4575
04:40:48,240 --> 04:40:51,680
Dorf proper quote in a farmyard, for there down the

4576
04:40:51,759 --> 04:40:53,720
roads to the cart, to which four naked women were

4577
04:40:53,799 --> 04:40:57,200
nailed through their hands in a cruciform position. Beyond to

4578
04:40:57,279 --> 04:40:59,040
the barn, and each of his two doors and naked

4579
04:40:59,080 --> 04:41:01,479
women was nailed through the hand, hands and crucified posture.

4580
04:41:01,959 --> 04:41:04,159
And the dwelling we found a total of seventy two women,

4581
04:41:04,200 --> 04:41:06,639
including children and one old man, all dead, all murder

4582
04:41:06,639 --> 04:41:09,799
in the beastial manner, except only a few who had

4583
04:41:09,799 --> 04:41:12,639
a bullet holes in their neck, some babies in their

4584
04:41:12,680 --> 04:41:14,599
heads bashed in and one room we found a woman

4585
04:41:14,680 --> 04:41:17,200
eighty four years old sitting on a sofa as with

4586
04:41:17,520 --> 04:41:20,000
half of whose head had been sheared off with an axe.

4587
04:41:21,159 --> 04:41:24,279
Every female, including girls as young as eight, had been raped.

4588
04:41:25,080 --> 04:41:28,319
Now the purpose that that that's a very horrible thing,

4589
04:41:28,319 --> 04:41:31,400
and that testimony is very disgusting and horrible. But the

4590
04:41:31,439 --> 04:41:33,799
reason I'm dropping it is not because again I want

4591
04:41:33,840 --> 04:41:36,560
to put shade on on on the Russians or something,

4592
04:41:36,959 --> 04:41:39,880
or because I want to fetishize, you know, warp rhymes.

4593
04:41:39,880 --> 04:41:43,880
But this was not what Amberger found this. This was

4594
04:41:43,919 --> 04:41:49,560
not an isolated incident, as would be revealed this effort.

4595
04:41:50,000 --> 04:41:54,400
There was literally a purposeful campaign of mass rape and

4596
04:41:54,400 --> 04:41:57,279
a homicide like numbering in instances the millions.

4597
04:41:57,439 --> 04:42:01,240
Speaker 1: Okay, they had done this, they had done this in

4598
04:42:01,279 --> 04:42:02,799
the Spanish Civil War too, Oh.

4599
04:42:02,759 --> 04:42:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but to scale. I've researched this and

4600
04:42:06,040 --> 04:42:08,040
it's not any fun because you know, they go down

4601
04:42:08,080 --> 04:42:11,159
this kind of rabbit hole of sexual linolence at scale.

4602
04:42:11,479 --> 04:42:15,159
It's I mean, it's it's taxing on the on the emotions.

4603
04:42:15,200 --> 04:42:18,799
But I've tried to find precedent, uh of of of

4604
04:42:19,080 --> 04:42:22,080
of this conduct carried out a scale in official terms,

4605
04:42:23,680 --> 04:42:28,880
and and I can't find anything remotely close. There was

4606
04:42:28,919 --> 04:42:33,680
a it was so in uh. Amberger further attested there

4607
04:42:33,720 --> 04:42:37,880
was a there there was a there was a grouping

4608
04:42:37,880 --> 04:42:41,560
of French and British POWs who were housed there, and

4609
04:42:41,599 --> 04:42:44,439
they and Polish uh and and and and and and

4610
04:42:44,439 --> 04:42:46,880
and and polls who have been impressed into the labor

4611
04:42:46,919 --> 04:42:50,119
service and and these guys they they tried to protect

4612
04:42:50,119 --> 04:42:53,599
these these women and girls who are being raped to

4613
04:42:53,720 --> 04:42:56,599
death in many cases by the assaulting right army and

4614
04:42:56,599 --> 04:42:59,000
and they were massacred to you know, it was it

4615
04:42:59,040 --> 04:43:02,880
was literally a barbari in invasion and Membersdorf and uh

4616
04:43:03,720 --> 04:43:06,959
it was so when Berlin uh got worried of what

4617
04:43:07,040 --> 04:43:09,720
had happened, they were so staggered by the scope and

4618
04:43:09,759 --> 04:43:17,400
scale of the viciousness. The Foreign Ministry contacted Spain, Sweden

4619
04:43:17,400 --> 04:43:22,279
and Switzerland. Now this is fascinating, Okay they uh they

4620
04:43:22,319 --> 04:43:25,799
because all all all three states were officially neutral, and

4621
04:43:25,959 --> 04:43:31,680
uh they they asked them uh to uh to to

4622
04:43:31,759 --> 04:43:35,360
deploy investigators on a fact finding mission and a document

4623
04:43:35,400 --> 04:43:37,840
what had happened, and to publicized this to the world.

4624
04:43:38,200 --> 04:43:42,720
You know, now, if Germany was uh, if Germany was

4625
04:43:42,720 --> 04:43:44,959
this country that was just you know, singularly and solely

4626
04:43:45,000 --> 04:43:48,119
engaged in in in in kind of criminality, you know,

4627
04:43:48,279 --> 04:43:51,479
like Battlefield criminality, Like why would they be inviting that'd

4628
04:43:51,520 --> 04:43:53,919
be quoted inviting you and inspectors and uh, you know,

4629
04:43:54,000 --> 04:43:57,479
kind of pull the curtain back, okay, And at that

4630
04:43:57,560 --> 04:43:59,360
stage of the war, I mean, Germany was not in

4631
04:43:59,360 --> 04:44:02,119
any position to truly control the full of information. You know.

4632
04:44:02,200 --> 04:44:07,080
That was uh, that was leaving uh the right proper

4633
04:44:07,200 --> 04:44:09,959
or the battle spaces in which the least phenomenal control.

4634
04:44:10,240 --> 04:44:13,599
So I that's very fascinating. That cuts against the kind

4635
04:44:13,599 --> 04:44:15,720
of the kind of dominant narrative, which we'll get into

4636
04:44:15,720 --> 04:44:19,279
in the next episode about Nuremberg. But these uh, these

4637
04:44:19,319 --> 04:44:23,400
independent investigators from Spain, Sweden and Switzerland, they documented what

4638
04:44:23,400 --> 04:44:25,759
had happened and what was attested to just now and

4639
04:44:25,919 --> 04:44:28,919
the kind of horrible uh testimony that I just relayed,

4640
04:44:29,479 --> 04:44:31,799
and they found it to be accurate. It was true

4641
04:44:31,840 --> 04:44:33,840
that this has happened. You know, there's not rumor, this

4642
04:44:33,919 --> 04:44:36,200
was not something that was staged. You know, this the

4643
04:44:36,240 --> 04:44:39,919
evidence was right there playing his day, and they tried

4644
04:44:39,919 --> 04:44:42,799
to publicize this to the world, and uh it was

4645
04:44:42,840 --> 04:44:44,959
intercept you know, of course, like any information that was

4646
04:44:44,959 --> 04:44:47,119
gonna reach the English speaking world was basically going through

4647
04:44:47,159 --> 04:44:49,680
the Office of War Information in America. And they simply

4648
04:44:49,720 --> 04:44:52,880
refused to relay anything like the Adam Browns that you know,

4649
04:44:52,919 --> 04:44:56,080
gonna harm the war efforts. And uh, the UK, Uh,

4650
04:44:56,840 --> 04:44:59,240
the the UK was in full blown propaganda mode. I

4651
04:44:59,279 --> 04:45:02,200
mean there's a reason why. Or well in uh ninety

4652
04:45:02,200 --> 04:45:04,759
eighty four, you know, like the the five minute hate

4653
04:45:05,279 --> 04:45:07,959
like that, that was literally the kind of that that

4654
04:45:07,959 --> 04:45:10,639
that was kind of about primitive and and single minded.

4655
04:45:10,720 --> 04:45:13,040
You know, British propaganda had become you know, we think

4656
04:45:13,040 --> 04:45:14,599
of the UK as being, you know, this kind of

4657
04:45:14,639 --> 04:45:19,479
hyper civilized place. It was really really primitive and in

4658
04:45:19,880 --> 04:45:23,119
terms of it's in terms of its media narratives and propaganda,

4659
04:45:23,200 --> 04:45:25,240
like far more sou than America or the Third Reich

4660
04:45:25,240 --> 04:45:27,880
in my opinion in that regard. But that's so what

4661
04:45:27,919 --> 04:45:30,040
I'm getting is that there's no way that uh, what

4662
04:45:30,200 --> 04:45:34,279
had happened here was gonna be uh what was gonna

4663
04:45:34,319 --> 04:45:37,000
reach Uh, it was gonna reach a world audience, and

4664
04:45:37,639 --> 04:45:40,360
it uh it was it was just quickly quashed because

4665
04:45:40,639 --> 04:45:43,759
as also too, I mean, this this would have there

4666
04:45:43,840 --> 04:45:46,400
there's no way in hell that that that Roosevelt or

4667
04:45:46,520 --> 04:45:50,799
Churchill we're gonna, but particularly Roosevelt, we're gonna we're gonna

4668
04:45:51,439 --> 04:45:54,200
We're gonna say or do anything or bring attention to,

4669
04:45:55,000 --> 04:45:57,360
you know, any any kind of atrocities that that that

4670
04:45:57,479 --> 04:46:00,439
might harm the concord of Stalin, you know, and it's

4671
04:46:02,159 --> 04:46:06,360
it on the heels of this kind of thing.

4672
04:46:06,599 --> 04:46:06,799
Speaker 1: You know.

4673
04:46:07,639 --> 04:46:10,200
Speaker 2: We talked about the Morgenthel Plan in one of our

4674
04:46:10,240 --> 04:46:15,959
earliest episodes, okay, And the Morgenthel Plan it was named for,

4675
04:46:16,279 --> 04:46:21,560
you know, the Roosevelt Secretary the Treasury, Henry Morgenthew, who

4676
04:46:21,639 --> 04:46:26,759
had conceived with his top aide Harry Dexter White. You know,

4677
04:46:26,759 --> 04:46:29,080
both of them were ethnic Jews and radical New dealers

4678
04:46:29,119 --> 04:46:34,200
and men with radical Zionis sympathies. What the Morganel Plan was.

4679
04:46:34,639 --> 04:46:37,840
It was never formally implemented. But we'll get to why

4680
04:46:37,840 --> 04:46:40,720
I raised this again in the moment. Okay, on September fifteenth,

4681
04:46:40,759 --> 04:46:46,279
forty four, this is when Roosevelt, this is when Roosevelt

4682
04:46:46,279 --> 04:46:49,159
approved the Morganel Plan. It's initially it was approved. You know,

4683
04:46:49,279 --> 04:46:52,439
Roosevelt died in office. You have to remember, okay, what

4684
04:46:52,520 --> 04:46:56,080
the Morganele Plan constituted. It called it the complete destruction

4685
04:46:56,159 --> 04:46:59,240
of Germany. Okay, it called it the dismantling of it.

4686
04:46:59,279 --> 04:47:04,799
In the forest essentially, uh, micro states. We're all we're

4687
04:47:04,840 --> 04:47:07,479
all heavy industry. You know, the only economic activity of

4688
04:47:07,520 --> 04:47:10,680
productive activity would be subsistence farming. This was almost like

4689
04:47:10,759 --> 04:47:14,680
Premiere Rugel like and I say that without resort, I purbly. Okay.

4690
04:47:15,560 --> 04:47:18,040
They called the permanent closure of the mines. It called

4691
04:47:18,080 --> 04:47:21,360
for it called for the reduction of the rice overall

4692
04:47:21,439 --> 04:47:23,360
land area by half, you know, to be seated to

4693
04:47:23,400 --> 04:47:26,439
the Soviet Union. And uh, you know, the what was

4694
04:47:26,599 --> 04:47:28,599
slated to be, you know, a Polish client state of

4695
04:47:28,639 --> 04:47:35,720
the Soviet Union. George C. Marshall he calculated, you know,

4696
04:47:36,040 --> 04:47:40,520
of he calculated that that roughly two thirds of the

4697
04:47:40,520 --> 04:47:43,959
German population which would have come out in ninety forty

4698
04:47:44,000 --> 04:47:49,400
five to approximately fifty million people would die starvation in

4699
04:47:49,439 --> 04:47:54,720
the immediate aftermath of the Morganel Plan. And uh, this

4700
04:47:54,880 --> 04:47:59,319
was considered acceptable and not as acceptable. I believe that

4701
04:47:59,360 --> 04:48:02,560
this was, uh, this was essentially the raison detra for

4702
04:48:02,599 --> 04:48:06,000
the war. Okay, it was the it was the annihilation

4703
04:48:06,040 --> 04:48:11,080
of the Germans as a people on on on categorical

4704
04:48:11,279 --> 04:48:13,000
racial grounds, you want to look at it like that,

4705
04:48:15,360 --> 04:48:18,759
And the reason why this was not implemented. Roosevelt died

4706
04:48:19,080 --> 04:48:22,159
Truman became Truman became President of United States. As a

4707
04:48:22,200 --> 04:48:27,080
consequence of that and other intrigues, uh, you know, the

4708
04:48:27,080 --> 04:48:32,919
the the Washington Moscow Concord fell apart, divided Germany. He

4709
04:48:33,000 --> 04:48:36,319
became what everybody believed would be a future bail ground

4710
04:48:36,360 --> 04:48:40,159
of World War three. Uh, America needed the bundes Be

4711
04:48:40,400 --> 04:48:44,159
to constitute the front line of that effort quite literally, okay,

4712
04:48:45,520 --> 04:48:47,759
and the bundhist Republic with you know, the West German army,

4713
04:48:47,759 --> 04:48:53,119
the bundese Be constituting its armed element. That's what defeated

4714
04:48:53,159 --> 04:48:57,200
the Morganel Plan. Okay. I believe some iteration of the

4715
04:48:57,200 --> 04:49:00,200
the Morvale Plan was implemented. And your friend and D

4716
04:49:00,279 --> 04:49:03,959
Michael Jones has written extensively about that. That's a little

4717
04:49:03,959 --> 04:49:05,840
bit outside the scope of what we're talking about here.

4718
04:49:05,919 --> 04:49:09,360
But the social engineering regime aimed at, you know, kind

4719
04:49:09,360 --> 04:49:12,319
of breaking down the German moral core, and you know,

4720
04:49:12,360 --> 04:49:16,560
the whole theory of the the the authoritarian personality and.

4721
04:49:16,439 --> 04:49:19,720
Speaker 3: Uh, the uh, the the idea that.

4722
04:49:19,720 --> 04:49:23,560
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, the like assaulting sexual morals and restraint

4723
04:49:24,599 --> 04:49:29,080
could both sabotage fertility and and and uh communitarian bonds

4724
04:49:29,080 --> 04:49:32,720
of family, but also you know, was a way of

4725
04:49:32,759 --> 04:49:36,240
kind of like derasclating people like this all stems from

4726
04:49:36,240 --> 04:49:40,799
this epoch. Okay, that is, you know, like sexuality, you know,

4727
04:49:40,840 --> 04:49:44,360
and the perversion of sexuality is as a weapon of warfare.

4728
04:49:45,880 --> 04:49:51,040
That is the aspect in spirit of the Morgana play,

4729
04:49:51,040 --> 04:49:53,400
and that was implemented real large, among many other things.

4730
04:49:53,479 --> 04:49:55,439
But this is a time my mind. So I know

4731
04:49:55,520 --> 04:49:57,680
that you and uh, I know that you and doctor

4732
04:49:57,759 --> 04:49:59,599
Jones dofter Jones like.

4733
04:50:00,919 --> 04:50:05,240
Speaker 1: I kept thinking that the whole time, Yeah.

4734
04:50:05,319 --> 04:50:10,119
Speaker 2: Me for being the mean, for being juvenile. But but

4735
04:50:10,240 --> 04:50:15,159
it was uh, it was estimated uh more than himself.

4736
04:50:15,159 --> 04:50:17,520
The idea was within two generations that Germany would cease

4737
04:50:17,560 --> 04:50:19,560
to exist. Though they are his words, not mine. And

4738
04:50:19,639 --> 04:50:23,240
uh if anybody thinks I'm I'm just being partisan or

4739
04:50:24,119 --> 04:50:30,439
uh resorting the kind of lurid, hysterical uh metaphors by

4740
04:50:30,799 --> 04:50:34,680
suggesting that uh, the you know, the the New Dealers

4741
04:50:34,680 --> 04:50:38,599
were waging a genocidal war of annihilation against Europe. I

4742
04:50:38,599 --> 04:50:41,040
I submit to you their own words, you know, and

4743
04:50:41,119 --> 04:50:44,279
they just did.

4744
04:50:45,360 --> 04:50:48,799
Speaker 5: Now I I I I I think that the common

4745
04:50:49,279 --> 04:50:53,400
defense of what happened in terms of this, this this

4746
04:50:53,560 --> 04:50:59,400
mass outbreak of sexual violence and homicide and brutality.

4747
04:50:59,759 --> 04:51:06,200
Speaker 2: Uh. I think the common the common claim of apologists

4748
04:51:06,240 --> 04:51:09,159
as well. These you know, there there's a disciplined problem

4749
04:51:09,200 --> 04:51:11,080
in the Red Army. And and you're talking about a

4750
04:51:11,159 --> 04:51:14,159
terrible you're talking about a terrible war that that costs

4751
04:51:14,159 --> 04:51:17,319
the lives of twenty million Soviet people. So they are

4752
04:51:17,319 --> 04:51:22,040
just men, you know, kind of without without correct military leadership,

4753
04:51:22,119 --> 04:51:25,080
just like acting out barbarically. I've got everything to say

4754
04:51:25,080 --> 04:51:27,200
about that. First of all, no matter how much you

4755
04:51:27,240 --> 04:51:29,919
hate your enemy, it's not normal to rape old women

4756
04:51:29,959 --> 04:51:33,279
and little children. That's just not something you do. Okay,

4757
04:51:33,319 --> 04:51:36,159
there's just spontaneously he happens, you know, just say, like

4758
04:51:36,520 --> 04:51:37,959
you know, me and my squad, mean, if you're gonna

4759
04:51:38,000 --> 04:51:39,560
rape an eighty year old none to death, I mean

4760
04:51:39,560 --> 04:51:44,439
that doesn't That's just not a spontaneous thing that happens, okay.

4761
04:51:45,639 --> 04:51:49,720
Elliott Ehrenberg was a chief uh he was a chief

4762
04:51:49,720 --> 04:51:53,080
propagandist of who worked handing love with the n k

4763
04:51:53,200 --> 04:51:55,639
v D and and had the favorite stalin himself. And

4764
04:51:55,720 --> 04:52:00,279
he he uh he published extensively and it did knew

4765
04:52:00,279 --> 04:52:04,000
his radio broadcasts uh you know uh on both Party

4766
04:52:04,119 --> 04:52:06,680
radio and Armed Forces radio, which reached the Red Army

4767
04:52:06,720 --> 04:52:11,240
in the field. He published extensively in the Red Star newspaper,

4768
04:52:11,240 --> 04:52:14,080
which is the rhetoray newspaper as well as he as

4769
04:52:14,080 --> 04:52:16,200
well as he was one of the main authors of

4770
04:52:16,240 --> 04:52:20,400
these mass uh these these these leaflets that were saturated

4771
04:52:20,479 --> 04:52:24,240
you know, throughout the battlespaces in the front. You know,

4772
04:52:24,279 --> 04:52:28,200
to both uh, bolster the the morale of the Red

4773
04:52:28,319 --> 04:52:30,720
Army or to strike fear in them so they would

4774
04:52:30,759 --> 04:52:34,680
not desert, but also to you know, try and try

4775
04:52:34,720 --> 04:52:41,880
and demoralize the the Wehrmacht. But uh it it uh

4776
04:52:41,919 --> 04:52:48,200
he he consistently a consistent theme of his propaganda was

4777
04:52:48,240 --> 04:52:50,560
that you know, this is a racial war against the

4778
04:52:50,599 --> 04:52:53,400
German people. The Germans are swine and the way, and

4779
04:52:53,400 --> 04:52:57,040
and you should rape the German women because you deserve to,

4780
04:52:57,119 --> 04:52:59,599
because they're the spoils of war and they're not humans anyway,

4781
04:52:59,680 --> 04:53:03,599
look at and like cattle. But also you know, you've

4782
04:53:03,599 --> 04:53:05,599
got you've got to rape German women because then the

4783
04:53:05,639 --> 04:53:08,200
next generation will be Russian, and you know there there

4784
04:53:08,240 --> 04:53:10,639
will be no more Germans. So you're doing you know,

4785
04:53:10,680 --> 04:53:13,479
you're you're you're you're being you're you're you're being a

4786
04:53:13,479 --> 04:53:16,080
good communist as well as a good soldier to you know,

4787
04:53:16,200 --> 04:53:19,560
to to to take these women and and and and

4788
04:53:19,599 --> 04:53:22,520
it's you know, force your seed into them. I know

4789
04:53:22,560 --> 04:53:24,880
it's like gross and trying to phrase phrase it as

4790
04:53:24,880 --> 04:53:27,560
delicately as I can, but I mean, this is what happened.

4791
04:53:27,599 --> 04:53:30,360
There's no way to push chine on it or make

4792
04:53:31,000 --> 04:53:37,599
make it something that it wasn't. But early on the other, uh,

4793
04:53:38,119 --> 04:53:43,040
the other kind of uh, the other the other kind

4794
04:53:43,040 --> 04:53:46,200
of rebuttal that I've come across a lot, not just

4795
04:53:46,360 --> 04:53:50,400
in in in guys and some girls, so I've debated

4796
04:53:50,439 --> 04:53:53,159
against and more or less formal circumstances about the war,

4797
04:53:53,240 --> 04:53:56,759
but also even other revisionists who aren't quite I guess

4798
04:53:56,799 --> 04:54:02,080
as uh as a knowledge. One of the topics I am,

4799
04:54:02,200 --> 04:54:06,279
it's suggest that the Commissar order changed everything. And you

4800
04:54:06,319 --> 04:54:10,119
know then in Kying, you know, the Red Army ceased

4801
04:54:10,159 --> 04:54:12,040
abiding you know, the world and customs of war, and

4802
04:54:12,040 --> 04:54:15,439
then because of because of German brutality, and you know

4803
04:54:15,520 --> 04:54:19,279
the the the exterminationist activities, the INSTS group and you

4804
04:54:19,279 --> 04:54:22,240
know they, you know, they the Red Army just responded

4805
04:54:22,279 --> 04:54:27,240
in kind. I don't accept that because it it turns

4806
04:54:27,279 --> 04:54:30,360
cause and effect on its head, like the commissar order.

4807
04:54:32,000 --> 04:54:34,080
That was that was that was the Fear order from

4808
04:54:35,439 --> 04:54:41,279
June sixth, nineteen forty one. So just literally Eve of Barbarossa.

4809
04:54:43,400 --> 04:54:47,040
It declared that commissars when found UH, you know, when

4810
04:54:47,080 --> 04:54:50,639
when commissars when captured, not only they're not entitled any

4811
04:54:50,759 --> 04:54:56,000
any any any Convention protections, but they should be eliminated.

4812
04:54:56,080 --> 04:54:59,080
You know, they're not even entitled the drumheads court, drumhead

4813
04:54:59,119 --> 04:55:02,840
courts martiall these matter of criminals. They're the UH, They're

4814
04:55:02,840 --> 04:55:07,639
the ideological enforcers of the Soviet state. The reason for

4815
04:55:07,720 --> 04:55:11,159
their presence at the platoon level is to UH is

4816
04:55:11,200 --> 04:55:13,319
to make sure that UH is to make sure that

4817
04:55:13,360 --> 04:55:15,319
the Red Army continues to fight, and then it continues

4818
04:55:15,360 --> 04:55:19,840
to fight specifically in accordance with with UH, with the

4819
04:55:20,000 --> 04:55:23,799
edicts of UH, of the Red Army and of Marxist Leninism. Now,

4820
04:55:25,959 --> 04:55:27,599
why did Hitler issue this order and why did you

4821
04:55:27,639 --> 04:55:31,400
make it formal? Well, that's an interesting question, and it's

4822
04:55:31,439 --> 04:55:33,680
not as simple as you think of just old Hitler

4823
04:55:33,759 --> 04:55:36,560
was this kind of wild man who hated Ivan. It's

4824
04:55:37,959 --> 04:55:41,319
the Soviet Union made a big show of refusing to

4825
04:55:41,319 --> 04:55:43,639
sign the Geneva Convention. In nineteen twenty nine, because, like

4826
04:55:43,680 --> 04:55:46,959
we talked about last episode or two episodes ago, the

4827
04:55:46,959 --> 04:55:52,319
Red Army doctrine was inseparable from from communist ideology. And

4828
04:55:52,880 --> 04:55:55,479
you know, as we talked about the UH as a

4829
04:55:55,560 --> 04:55:58,439
man as a matter of formal UH, as a matter

4830
04:55:58,520 --> 04:56:03,680
of formal UH the protocol, the Red Army declared, you

4831
04:56:03,680 --> 04:56:06,439
know it, It was declared by the High Command. You know,

4832
04:56:06,479 --> 04:56:09,000
the Red Army is a purely offensive army. You know,

4833
04:56:10,040 --> 04:56:12,799
the Red Army does not formally declare war because you know,

4834
04:56:12,840 --> 04:56:16,439
their mandate is a historical mission to liberate the proletariat,

4835
04:56:16,840 --> 04:56:21,240
you know, across this entire planet. You know, the laws

4836
04:56:21,279 --> 04:56:25,639
and customs of war are contrivances of capitalism in order

4837
04:56:25,680 --> 04:56:28,639
to favor a system that is propped up by the

4838
04:56:28,680 --> 04:56:31,360
needs of capital. I mean all of these things. Okay,

4839
04:56:32,159 --> 04:56:39,439
So the Russian Empire had had signed the Hague Conventions

4840
04:56:39,479 --> 04:56:43,360
of eighteen ninety nine and nineteen oh seven, but the

4841
04:56:43,360 --> 04:56:46,919
Soviet Union came into existence by literally murdering that government

4842
04:56:47,279 --> 04:56:50,799
and declaring that it had been a criminal regime and

4843
04:56:50,919 --> 04:56:56,919
had no legitimacy. So we can't claim that the Soviet

4844
04:56:56,959 --> 04:57:02,040
regime is entitled to the Protections Act there are several

4845
04:57:02,080 --> 04:57:05,919
protections ACQUI asked to buy the Tsar's regime when they

4846
04:57:05,959 --> 04:57:10,360
turned around and murdered, literally the czar who had put

4847
04:57:10,360 --> 04:57:15,119
the put pen to paper on that convention. Now, the

4848
04:57:15,200 --> 04:57:17,720
letter of our Lady two of the Geneva Convention claims

4849
04:57:17,759 --> 04:57:21,599
that you know, the fact that a state is not

4850
04:57:21,720 --> 04:57:25,639
a party signatory to it does not mean that one

4851
04:57:25,639 --> 04:57:29,279
can escape liability from you know, not honoring. The protection

4852
04:57:29,400 --> 04:57:35,240
is that they're personnel are are entitled to be afforded

4853
04:57:35,240 --> 04:57:39,720
in the convention. I hate to be the barrabads news.

4854
04:57:39,720 --> 04:57:44,000
It's not how treaties work. Treaties are always permissive, not compulsory,

4855
04:57:44,200 --> 04:57:47,919
because their contracts. You know, there's not some higher authority

4856
04:57:48,000 --> 04:57:50,479
no matter what Rachel Maddow might tell you, or whatever

4857
04:57:50,560 --> 04:57:53,520
mister Biden might mumble about in between. You know, soiling

4858
04:57:53,639 --> 04:57:58,279
is uh, it depends or what or what some you

4859
04:57:58,319 --> 04:58:00,959
know uh or some Berkeley professor might tell you about,

4860
04:58:00,959 --> 04:58:04,080
you know, kind of the universality of of of human rights.

4861
04:58:05,400 --> 04:58:08,599
There is no sovereign authority that's higher than the government

4862
04:58:08,599 --> 04:58:12,439
of a national state, and national states become parties to

4863
04:58:12,520 --> 04:58:14,639
treaties based upon a meeting of the mind it's just

4864
04:58:14,639 --> 04:58:18,360
like people who you know, uh, just like people who

4865
04:58:18,439 --> 04:58:23,000
agree to uh to to to a contract. If there's

4866
04:58:23,000 --> 04:58:25,400
no meeting of the minds, it's because there's no moral consensus.

4867
04:58:25,400 --> 04:58:29,840
There's no moral consensus, Uh, there's there there's no willingness

4868
04:58:29,840 --> 04:58:32,840
to abide the strictures of a treaty that only exists

4869
04:58:32,880 --> 04:58:37,080
when when such a meeting that minds exist. So this,

4870
04:58:37,080 --> 04:58:39,240
this is this is the origin of the commiss our order.

4871
04:58:39,959 --> 04:58:41,880
And beyond that, I mean it kind of went without

4872
04:58:41,880 --> 04:58:46,919
saying anyway, because uh, you know, the the the Soviet

4873
04:58:47,000 --> 04:58:51,560
Union it had had in a lot of ways. It

4874
04:58:51,560 --> 04:58:54,080
it was a rejection of the of the of the

4875
04:58:54,119 --> 04:58:56,240
kind of Peterism, you know, the red of the Peter

4876
04:58:56,319 --> 04:58:59,439
the Great a preceding a couple of centuries. It was

4877
04:58:59,439 --> 04:59:03,040
succeeding from Europe just outright, okay. In addition to the

4878
04:59:03,040 --> 04:59:06,720
Marsi's Leninist ideology that you know underlay it it, the

4879
04:59:06,799 --> 04:59:09,880
idea that you're obligated to extend you know, Geneva Convention

4880
04:59:10,000 --> 04:59:13,680
protections to the Soviet Union was somewhat ridiculous, okay. But

4881
04:59:13,840 --> 04:59:22,720
the uh, the uh, the uh, the commissar order and

4882
04:59:22,720 --> 04:59:25,119
and the the acts of the Einsets group and like

4883
04:59:25,200 --> 04:59:27,880
make make a mistake. I mean that was a that

4884
04:59:27,959 --> 04:59:31,520
was incredibly uh, I mean incredibly brutal. Stuff was carried

4885
04:59:31,520 --> 04:59:33,720
out inner the office of that. But it's not as

4886
04:59:33,759 --> 04:59:36,919
if you know, that's what prompted the Red Army's brutality.

4887
04:59:37,799 --> 04:59:42,439
The first instance I have found of a reported atrocities

4888
04:59:42,439 --> 04:59:45,880
on the Eastern Front July one, ninety forty one. Now,

4889
04:59:45,919 --> 04:59:49,000
mind you, this is just weeks after uh, this is

4890
04:59:49,040 --> 04:59:56,080
just weeks after Barbarossa. They're BRANICKI Ukraine. I'm sure I'm

4891
04:59:56,080 --> 05:00:01,080
butchering that pronunciation. I'm sorry about that. Don't say snarky stuff.

4892
05:00:01,200 --> 05:00:03,200
I realize I'm bad with these things, but I I

4893
05:00:03,880 --> 05:00:07,080
cannot announce the Slavic stuff. It's too constant, heavy, and

4894
05:00:07,119 --> 05:00:11,159
I just I don't speak these languages. Near Broniki, the

4895
05:00:11,159 --> 05:00:16,200
Red Army captured one hundred and sixty German lancers uh

4896
05:00:17,279 --> 05:00:26,000
at junior Baffin SS officer candidate named Hans Voltersdorf. He

4897
05:00:26,159 --> 05:00:32,279
uh He attested to the fact that all these men,

4898
05:00:33,000 --> 05:00:35,200
with the exception of a few who'd been quite literally

4899
05:00:36,439 --> 05:00:40,880
gutted uh and and and hadn't yet expired, had been

4900
05:00:41,080 --> 05:00:44,639
severely tortured before being murdered by having their throats cut

4901
05:00:44,759 --> 05:00:47,799
or their heads basing their rifle rifle butts. Uh, these

4902
05:00:47,840 --> 05:00:50,680
men at their eyes gouged out, they were castrated. I mean,

4903
05:00:50,720 --> 05:00:55,159
all these things that lay were alive, Okay, and uh obviously,

4904
05:00:55,279 --> 05:00:58,040
uh this inflamed the passions and kind of of of

4905
05:00:58,119 --> 05:01:00,959
these of these bobin has doesn't barn troopers, and I

4906
05:01:01,439 --> 05:01:06,200
you know, moving forward in the conflict, it's really as

4907
05:01:06,240 --> 05:01:13,240
august the as A as a you know, as as

4908
05:01:13,279 --> 05:01:15,840
all the army groups closing their objectives. I mean, there

4909
05:01:15,880 --> 05:01:19,599
was there's myriad reports of of categorical you know, massacres

4910
05:01:19,599 --> 05:01:21,400
by by the very monk and Bob and assess the

4911
05:01:21,439 --> 05:01:23,439
same nothing of the Asins group, Like I'm not I'm

4912
05:01:23,479 --> 05:01:26,680
not clearing Otherwise, I voted the testament of of of

4913
05:01:26,680 --> 05:01:31,200
of Volta stores because again it robusts the idea that like, well,

4914
05:01:31,240 --> 05:01:33,240
the Red Army was fighting a clean war or was

4915
05:01:33,319 --> 05:01:36,360
behaving like a normal military force. And then oh, you know,

4916
05:01:36,720 --> 05:01:41,479
the commissar order will begin was implemented, uh at scale,

4917
05:01:41,520 --> 05:01:43,959
and while that all bets are off, that's that's nonsense.

4918
05:01:44,040 --> 05:01:47,240
I mean, there there was a unique brutality to the

4919
05:01:47,240 --> 05:01:50,279
Red Army. Is that I'm getting at. Okay, And again,

4920
05:01:50,319 --> 05:01:54,720
this isn't what about is? But I I it's this

4921
05:01:54,840 --> 05:01:57,880
is something that's missing from the court history record, okay,

4922
05:01:58,200 --> 05:01:59,840
or it's something that does not dealt with at all,

4923
05:02:01,240 --> 05:02:05,240
in part because they're they're there. It's it's imperative in

4924
05:02:05,319 --> 05:02:10,759
order to substantiate the Cordustry narrative, the posit that the

4925
05:02:10,880 --> 05:02:15,000
Hrmacht and the baff and SS was was uniquely uh

4926
05:02:16,240 --> 05:02:19,840
was was was uniquely brutal and and and had contempt

4927
05:02:19,880 --> 05:02:21,759
for the laws and customs of war in a unique

4928
05:02:21,759 --> 05:02:25,080
way that that stands apart from all other conduct of

4929
05:02:25,080 --> 05:02:27,040
all combatments in the war. That's why I raised this

4930
05:02:27,599 --> 05:02:30,639
as well as like I said that from the outset

4931
05:02:30,680 --> 05:02:36,439
of this discussion, it's essential understanding concrete terms the European

4932
05:02:36,840 --> 05:02:41,520
view of the war against the Bolsheviks. It's essential, you know,

4933
05:02:41,599 --> 05:02:45,360
this wasn't this was stuff that was being encountered by

4934
05:02:45,439 --> 05:02:48,279
landers in the field and and and was ubiquitous. This

4935
05:02:48,360 --> 05:02:50,639
was not this was not comfortable to like you know,

4936
05:02:50,720 --> 05:02:55,000
horror stories of you know, of of of nineteen seventeen

4937
05:02:55,080 --> 05:02:57,599
of you know, oh, American was intervene in the Great

4938
05:02:57,639 --> 05:03:00,479
War because you know, the dirty hunt is crucifying. French boy,

4939
05:03:00,520 --> 05:03:02,599
He's like, that's not We're not talking kind of think

4940
05:03:02,599 --> 05:03:07,439
at all. We're talking about documented acts of horrendous brutality

4941
05:03:08,240 --> 05:03:14,759
outside of any any any kind of normal, uh combat operation.

4942
05:03:18,479 --> 05:03:20,880
But it's also what I gotta say too, is again,

4943
05:03:20,919 --> 05:03:23,000
I'm sure that there's gonna be a lot of Russians

4944
05:03:23,000 --> 05:03:25,279
and maybe just other Slavic people who are gonna think

4945
05:03:25,279 --> 05:03:27,200
that and being bigot it or just trying to be

4946
05:03:27,279 --> 05:03:29,479
mean or something. And there's not the case at all.

4947
05:03:30,279 --> 05:03:35,360
And I will say this, and uh von Manstein uh

4948
05:03:35,639 --> 05:03:38,639
in his his people have mixed feelings about but it's

4949
05:03:38,680 --> 05:03:41,439
important to pay attention to to his testimony, whether you

4950
05:03:41,520 --> 05:03:43,119
love or hate the guy, or think he was a

4951
05:03:43,119 --> 05:03:45,520
great man or think he was a trader to his

4952
05:03:45,599 --> 05:03:50,599
fere and to his people. Uh, that's not important for

4953
05:03:50,720 --> 05:03:54,360
him about to drop. But if I'm managed to drop

4954
05:03:54,400 --> 05:03:58,240
consistently that the Red Army, Russian soldier, he loomed large

4955
05:03:58,439 --> 05:04:02,119
in the minds of all Europeans under arms just because

4956
05:04:02,119 --> 05:04:04,080
he was incredibly game and incredibly tough.

4957
05:04:05,000 --> 05:04:05,159
Speaker 1: Uh.

4958
05:04:06,520 --> 05:04:10,279
Speaker 2: There's endless there's as many there's just as many anecdotes

4959
05:04:10,319 --> 05:04:15,360
and eyewitness testimony about the incredible gameness and toughness and

4960
05:04:15,400 --> 05:04:18,520
ability to endure pain and hardship and deprivation and still

4961
05:04:18,560 --> 05:04:22,799
fight effectively of the other Red Army troop, or as

4962
05:04:22,840 --> 05:04:28,080
there is about his repentency for you know, horrible, horrible

4963
05:04:28,159 --> 05:04:33,759
violence against against vulnerable populations, whether POWs or female non

4964
05:04:33,759 --> 05:04:37,080
combatans or what have you. So that's not our purpose

4965
05:04:37,119 --> 05:04:39,919
here is to just bash the Russians, you know, suggests

4966
05:04:39,919 --> 05:04:42,040
that they're inferior or something at all. I just wanted

4967
05:04:42,040 --> 05:04:44,479
to make that clear. And the fact that they were,

4968
05:04:44,680 --> 05:04:47,680
the fact that they were and are so tough and

4969
05:04:47,799 --> 05:04:51,479
game is one of the reasons why, uh, you know,

4970
05:04:51,599 --> 05:04:54,759
they were such a feared adversary. You know, it's uh,

4971
05:04:55,000 --> 05:04:57,680
anybody canna be brutal. In fact, often like brutality is

4972
05:04:57,720 --> 05:05:04,080
the recourse of h of the weakling. But I uh,

4973
05:05:06,919 --> 05:05:13,319
I uh yeah, I think I think, uh, I think

4974
05:05:13,360 --> 05:05:15,799
it's maybe a good point to kind of stop, because

4975
05:05:15,880 --> 05:05:18,000
I the rest of my notes and the rest of

4976
05:05:18,040 --> 05:05:20,159
them was on my mind that I'd kind of be

4977
05:05:20,240 --> 05:05:23,080
jumping into stuff that I want to cover in the

4978
05:05:23,119 --> 05:05:28,720
next episode because it deals specifically with always alleged nerve

4979
05:05:28,799 --> 05:05:31,040
verdunto the testimony there and if I drop it now,

4980
05:05:31,119 --> 05:05:35,720
it's kind of gonna it confused the narrative. What I'd

4981
05:05:35,759 --> 05:05:38,520
like to talk about next though, I'd like to talk

4982
05:05:38,560 --> 05:05:42,759
about the war in the West in terms of how

4983
05:05:42,759 --> 05:05:44,639
it resolved in the combat, kind of like we did

4984
05:05:44,720 --> 05:05:49,119
last episode with Barbarossa, but also the strategic bombing campaign

4985
05:05:49,240 --> 05:05:54,279
by RIF and US Army Air Forces, because that's important

4986
05:05:54,319 --> 05:05:59,520
and it bears not just on the context of how

4987
05:05:59,560 --> 05:06:02,680
combat developed in the Western Front, but it also comes

4988
05:06:02,680 --> 05:06:06,159
to bear on how the Nuremberg indictment was structured and

4989
05:06:06,159 --> 05:06:08,959
crafted and what was redacted and what was not. And

4990
05:06:09,000 --> 05:06:12,000
then after that episode, will will probably two episodes to

4991
05:06:12,040 --> 05:06:17,840
deal with the Nuremberg UH Tribunal because there's such a

4992
05:06:17,880 --> 05:06:20,200
huge topic. And then it's totally up to you because

4993
05:06:20,240 --> 05:06:22,159
it's your show. I want to do kind of a

4994
05:06:22,479 --> 05:06:25,319
final episode of this series where we can just like

4995
05:06:25,400 --> 05:06:27,880
feel questions that people want to know about. I mean,

4996
05:06:27,919 --> 05:06:30,680
we'll take a question before and obviously, but like some

4997
05:06:30,759 --> 05:06:32,599
of the like some of the some of the British

4998
05:06:32,599 --> 05:06:35,959
studs who follow you and follow my stuff, like, uh,

4999
05:06:36,200 --> 05:06:38,400
like these English and Scottish dudes they want us to

5000
05:06:38,400 --> 05:06:40,119
talk about like North Africa and that would be a

5001
05:06:40,159 --> 05:06:43,639
great freaking topic. And like other guys wanted to talk

5002
05:06:43,680 --> 05:06:47,639
a little bit more about about uh you know about

5003
05:06:47,720 --> 05:06:50,279
kind of the uh the hillovers of stress or like

5004
05:06:50,560 --> 05:06:52,599
intrigues and things and that, I mean that'd be great too.

5005
05:06:52,599 --> 05:06:53,840
I mean, it was totally up to you, but I

5006
05:06:53,840 --> 05:06:55,639
think that might be worthwhile and they would kind of

5007
05:06:55,680 --> 05:06:58,439
get people involved.

5008
05:06:57,880 --> 05:06:59,279
Speaker 1: I look forward to it.

5009
05:06:59,400 --> 05:07:02,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, but that's uh, that's uh.

5010
05:07:03,000 --> 05:07:06,000
I think this is a good stopping point if.

5011
05:07:06,080 --> 05:07:08,880
Speaker 1: You're working, plug what you want to plug in.

5012
05:07:09,439 --> 05:07:13,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I'm every report. My manuscript for the next

5013
05:07:13,919 --> 05:07:17,400
deal Store is practically finished. Uh. This is about two

5014
05:07:17,439 --> 05:07:20,000
weeks late later than I wanted it to be, but

5015
05:07:20,599 --> 05:07:24,599
that's gonna be dropping eminently this summer. It makes me

5016
05:07:24,759 --> 05:07:28,080
very happy, said, it'll soon be available. Uh. You can

5017
05:07:28,119 --> 05:07:30,840
find me at uh. I'm on I'm on t gram

5018
05:07:31,520 --> 05:07:36,599
uh t dot M E slash the number seven H

5019
05:07:36,759 --> 05:07:39,959
M A S seven seven seven. You can find me

5020
05:07:40,000 --> 05:07:47,040
on substack uh real Thomas seven seven seven dot substack

5021
05:07:47,119 --> 05:07:50,840
dot com. Uh. You can find me on gab uh

5022
05:07:51,000 --> 05:07:54,200
at real Thomas seven seven seven. I'm actually on truth

5023
05:07:54,240 --> 05:07:58,840
Social now uh uh not not because I've gone like

5024
05:07:59,200 --> 05:08:02,520
mega or something. But I've got a couple of friends

5025
05:08:02,520 --> 05:08:04,119
there on the interest of to see what mister Trump

5026
05:08:04,200 --> 05:08:06,279
is saying, because there's been this farther than tell, like

5027
05:08:06,400 --> 05:08:09,759
no real coverage of election of season, which is strange

5028
05:08:09,799 --> 05:08:11,799
at the stage in the game. But you can find

5029
05:08:11,840 --> 05:08:14,560
me there, I mean, the real Thomas seven seven seven.

5030
05:08:14,720 --> 05:08:18,319
I'm not really active there, but any of my content

5031
05:08:18,439 --> 05:08:20,720
like this I posted up there, I posted on gab.

5032
05:08:21,400 --> 05:08:23,159
You can always find it on t gram. But that's

5033
05:08:23,200 --> 05:08:24,560
that's how to find me. And if you want to

5034
05:08:24,560 --> 05:08:26,639
get hold of me personally, hit me up on t

5035
05:08:26,799 --> 05:08:28,880
gram by direct message. I'll give you an email or

5036
05:08:28,880 --> 05:08:29,599
a phone number.

5037
05:08:31,279 --> 05:08:33,200
Speaker 1: I appreciate it, manun till the next time.

5038
05:08:33,479 --> 05:08:34,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, Pete