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Speaker 1: The Church.

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Speaker 2: So there's probably about thirty things that we don't believe

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the Roman Calviolcs officially believe.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that that makes a lot of sense, I guess.

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One of my last question is is regarding idol worship.

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So in Islam, idol worship is prohibited, meaning that for example,

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for Prophet Muhammad, or or for.

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Speaker 4: Any prophets like Prophet Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Prophet Noah at all the ways starting from Adam, we're

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not you know, we're not allowed.

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Speaker 5: To depict them in images.

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Speaker 6: Or or or things of that nature.

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Speaker 5: Are like movies and now in the modern.

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Speaker 3: Era, So what does what is the Orthodox Christians position

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regarding seeing the visual depiction of Jesus Christ and other

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you know, prophets like Prophet Adam or Noah or is

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there any like strict prohibitions against that or uh, yeah,

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that was gonna be my last question.

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Speaker 2: So the Orthodox Church does not believe in iconoclasm. Iconoclasm

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is the Protestant and Islamic view that all imagery is idolatry.

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We do agree that idols are wrong, but we do

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not believe that all images are idols. Is it possible

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to irreverently give honor to a image, a holy image. Yes,

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theoretically that's possible. But we do not out of hand

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believe that all imagery is idolatry. But we do believe

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that idolatry is a sin. It's part of the Ten

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Commandments and it's forbidden. But we believe, along with ancient

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Hebrew religion, that God has always been able to manifest

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in some form or in some way. If you read

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the Torah, which was the first five books of Moses,

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there are countless explications in that revelation about how God

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did want to be worshiped through legitimate imagery. The Orthodox

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Church inherited that tradition of out of the synagogue and

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temple system of the Jews having legitimate imagery. So we

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do believe in icons, and we do revere them, and

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we think that they're an implication of the incarnation of Christ,

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who we believe is the son of God. So we

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do believe in icons and images. If you want a documentary,

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my friend made a documentary on the Jewish Old Testament

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continuity with Orthodox Christian worship. It's called Christian Worship and

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the Old Testament, and it actually deals with as you

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can see here, synagogues in the first and second century

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that have imagery all over the walls. They look just

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like Orthodox churches. So we believe that Orthodox Christianity is

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the fulfillment of Judaism. So we do not believe in iconoclasm.

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Speaker 1: Perfect, thank you. Sure.

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Speaker 2: Also, idolatry, to be clear, is not just an external

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action of imaging something, although it may manifest in that way.

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And so, for example, in the Orthodox tradition, there's a

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lot of strictures on what icons can depict, and how

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they can depict, and what they can't depict. And this

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is actually another area where we disagree with Roman Catholics.

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We have very strict rules about how you can't make

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up icons or doing them anyway you want. There's a

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lot of traditional rules that bind you. You're not really

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supposed to technically do images of God. The Father Christ

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is the only legitimate icon or image of the Father.

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There's one exclusion to that, which is the Ancient of

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Days from Daniel seven. But even the Ancient of Days

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is an image of the Father pictured as Christ, and

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so he has Christic imagery. And that's because Jesus is

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No one has seen the Father at any time, and

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anybody who sees the Son has seen the Father. So

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that's why the Ancient of Days includes chrystological imagery, and

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it's not an old dude with the beard separate from

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or next to Christ. That's technically not what you're supposed

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to do. Now, there have been instances where churches and

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people in the history of Orthodoxy have done this and

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it has been tolerated. There are some monasteries and there's

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some churches that have these famously, but they're technically not

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supposed to be done, and even though they're tolerated, it's

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really not the norm. So that's enough on that topic.

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But that's actually come up quite a bit this week.

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Speaker 1: Actually.

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Speaker 2: Okay, great questions there. I think this is the first

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time we had a Muslim ask questions and it wasn't

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a debate. That was interesting. You are able to ask questions,

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but I'm actually looking for people who disagree. So if

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you disagree, feel free to raise your hand. We've still

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got We actually got more people now than we did earlier.

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We got fifteen fourteen people. If you disagree, hold up

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the little what do you call it, emoji or whatever?

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Anyone disagree, Okay, we'll go to you. Maddie what's up man,

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Thank you guys for the super chest. I'll read those

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just in a second. Oh, I was gonna say. Idolatry

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is also not just an external thing for us. Hold

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on just one second. Idolatry is also first and foremost

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something that comes from the mind and from the heart. So,

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in other words, if I spend my life trying to

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get money, you know, if my life revolves around greed,

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money is an idol, even though I don't have a

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visible picture of the dollar sign that I'm bowing to.

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So idolatry first and foremost comes out of the heart.

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If you remember Jesus says, it's not the things that

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go in the mouth that make you unclean. It's the

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things that proceed out of the heart, evil words, et cetera,

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that comes out of the heart. So again, the Ancient

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of Days. Hold on one second, Mattie. Just read the

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Lawsky Alspenske book on Icons, Volume two deals with the

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whole Moscow Icon Councils and the Ancient of Days. And

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if you believe that the Ancient of Days is the

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two natures of Christ, that's actually a problem because you

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can't even an imagery separate the natures of Christ. So

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it's very problematic to interpret it as two different natures

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of Christ. I think it's weird to interpret it as

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Christ in one state of humiliation, as man and as incarnation,

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and then Christ triumphant. Everybody's divorcing the Daniel seven texts

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from Revelation, and this is what I don't see anybody

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talking about. The text in Daniel seven. It's talking about

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the ascension of the Son of Man coming in a cloud,

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which is exactly what X one says. And then when

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you read the Book of Revelation, when the Sun ascends,

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and when John sees into heaven and sees the sun

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ascending and going and getting the scrolls and being given dominion,

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power and authority over were all nations, tribes, and tongues.

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Many people, I believe wrongly push that to the end

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of the world. It's not the end of the world.

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It's the ascension. Christ has given those things inner nature

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in the ascension to sit at the right hand of

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the Father. Does Jesus sit at the right hand of

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the Father at the end of the world or in

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the ascension? Every time Psalm one ten has cited in

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the New Testament, and this is crucial for refuting premillennialism

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and dispensationalism. It's his ascension. But this means that Daniel

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seven is talking about then, and Revelation is talking about

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then the Son being given authority, power, dominion, et setter

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up by the Father. And I think that's true. I

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don't see how it's not the Father. Now does that

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mean that you can be creative and start imaging the Father.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 2: Hence, the Ancient of Day's images that do exist look

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like Christ. But it's Christ under the image of Revelation

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ie where he has white hair and so forth, and

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he's on a and Ezekiel one to ten where he

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appears with white hair and all this stuff. So this

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is the glorified Christ or the preincarnate Christ, same Christ, right,

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But the Ancient of Days has to be imaged. And

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I pull up at this on Twitter Day, it was like,

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it's the Ancient of days that you notice. It's it

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looks like Jesus from the visions of Ezekiel one in

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Revelation one. Now beyond that, you're not supposed to really

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image the Father. That's about it. So you'll notice here

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in this Ancient of Day's image the Son, this looks

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like the son with white hair, because the presentation in

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Daniel seven of the Ancient of Days, even if it's

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the father, it has to look like the son, because

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the son is the only legitimate icon and image of

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the Father. Now the reason one side note before we

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go to you, Maddie, just to address all of this.

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So like these these icons like this, even though they're

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tolerated in some places, the theology that the Moscow Icon

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Council has to reject these is because they're theologically inaccurate.

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And I'm not saying everybody's a heretic that does this,

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because there's plenty of good people that don't know all this.

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It's it's just that, first of all, the Father did

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not become incarnate. He doesn't have a form. The only

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form the Father has is the son. So to portray

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the son as an old man next to excuse me

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as the father as an old man next to the

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son is theologically wrong. And then the spirit in between

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them suggests philioque. So that one and what's called the

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paternity icon, let me find the paternity. They were rejected

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out in the Moscow Icon Synod because they suggest the

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illogical errors. That's why So the paternity icon, for example,

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suggests Philly Oakuay, and I think, yeah, here it is.

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So you'll notice in this one it gives the impression

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that the Holy Spirit is proceeding from the Father through

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the son, which sounds okay. But the son's birth as

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a child is confused with the eternal relation of the

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intatrinitarian generation of the son. So the problem is not

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just do the icon suggest Philly oak Way. And the

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reality is that if you read the loskow Spinsky book,

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they argue that the heaterdox icons like the New Testament

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Trinity and paternity and sonotha ron is another one, they

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suggest theological error and they were actually introduced by Jesuits

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into places like Kiev to literally convert Russians to Philly Oakuey.

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That's not the only reason. The other reason is the

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father doesn't have a form, he's not an old man.

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And the other reason is that it confuses economia with

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the innertrinitarian life. Now, how often do you have anyone

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exegeating icons on the basis of this theological nuance? And

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if you read the Moscow Icon Council, it's pretty profound.

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I mean it's great. Now, it doesn't mean it's infallible

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because the Icon Council, even Losk admits is inconsistent because

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at the beginning of the council and the theological argumentation

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he makes, they reject all images of the Father, but

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then at the end of the council they say, but

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we do allow for the imaging of the Father as

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the way Ezekiel one in Revelation describe him like an

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old man. So it left it was kind of confusing,

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in other words, what the Moscow Icon councils say. Anyway,

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long story short, the main point is it's not a

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good idea to image the Father. It should not be done,

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but perhaps rarely and tolerated rarely. And the main reason

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that we don't do it is because icons teach theology,

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and we don't want the theology of the symbol of

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the icon teaching Philly okuay and confusing economia with theology

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proper or the eternal intertrinitarian relations. So I'm sorry, Mattie,

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go ahead, No, No.

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Speaker 5: You're right, bro. That was very explanation.

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Speaker 7: I was actually gonna mention you'll podcast with Sam quotam

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p favor one cool.

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Speaker 2: Did you see my bio? I'm a co writer for

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the new Samhart Show.

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Speaker 7: I heard about that. I was going to ask you

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about that off. So what's happening with that show you're

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going to be? Is there to be a new show for.

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Speaker 2: Michael sam Uh Well, it's kind of been morphing in

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terms of what's the plan. But he's gonna there will

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be a studio and all that eventually, but the first

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episode is officially going to be the video that just

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came out about Elon.

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Speaker 5: Okay, beautiful, beautiful man. I'm looking I'm looking forward to it.

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I love you, I love you guys, thank you.

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Speaker 7: I was gonna ask I was gonna present an argument

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in the form of a question as well. So Saint

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Isaac Assyrian, he's canonized as a saint in the Orpanops Church.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, So my question slash argument is the Council of

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Emphasis was in four thirty one a d.

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Speaker 7: And Saint Isaac was a bishop in the Assyrian Church.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he during the time period where he was alive

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that they were reconciled to the Orthodox.

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Speaker 5: But okay, so that's interesting.

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Speaker 7: So he was his professional position was aligned with the

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Assyrian Church, which was in six eighty eighty, which is

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two hundred years post schism.

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Speaker 2: No, but he was reconciled to the Orthodox. I don't

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know how wide that reconciliation was. But if you read

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about this and from the Orthodox perspective, that's why we

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consider him a saint. He was not in schism, so.

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Speaker 8: Is that okay?

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Speaker 5: So that's interesting. So that him individually, individually.

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Speaker 2: That's what I'm saying. I'm not sure if it's the

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entire region that he was in or how widespread it was,

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but he was he himself was not in schism.

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Speaker 9: Now, okay, So if that went to me, you there,

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you cut out, start over.

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Speaker 7: So if there was a modern example of this, say

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someone isn't a different church than the Orthodox Church, and

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they have the own spiritual life, but it sort of

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aligns with the Orthodox.

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Speaker 2: They're actually as president. In fact, there's two examples of

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this in modern Orthodox practice. Well, and I say modern

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because I can give you a modern example. In a

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late medieval example, some of h Jan huss I think

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is sometimes considered Orthodox or or the Hussites are sometimes

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considered Orthodox. And there was a person, a Lutheran in

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the circles of the Romanovs that is considered orthodox. I

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forget the name of that person, but there is yes.

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Speaker 5: So like the statement would be like although the professional

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position is not Eastern Orthodoxy, you know.

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Speaker 2: I'm saying that well correct. I think in the case

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that I don't know the specifics of the Hussites, but

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this has come up in I think Rokor and with

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somebody who served the royal family the Romanovs who was

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Lutheran but was eventually professed Orthodox. If I don't know if

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they were actually received, but they were professing it, but

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I think they're considered Orthodox. I'm just I'm not like

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an expert on church history. It's not my main thing.

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But I'm pretty sure that in the case of Isaac

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the Syrian, he was there was no such thing as

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Assyrian Church of the East. That title is a much

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later title, and so they would have called themselves orthod

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even if they were in schism. But the Orthodox position

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is that he was reconciled to the Orthodox Church.

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Speaker 5: That's interesting. I actually have a little into that. So

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when do you think the Assyrian church gives So.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm saying that the council, I'm saying the

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title quote Assyrian Church of the East is what it's

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known as today. So what I'm saying is you can't

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say that Isaac Assyrian was a member of the quote

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Assyrian Church of the East. They don't know. They would

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have known what that title. That's a more modern title.

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I'm saying that he would have seen himself as Orthodox,

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but he was actually united to and in communion with

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the Orthodox Church in his day, the rest of the

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Orthodox world. That's why he's a saint. We don't hold

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anybody as a saint who died out of communi or

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in schism officially with us. But jon Hooss was not

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in schism with us. And the women who are the

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person that served the Ramanovs who was Lutheran, the profess

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Orthodoxy before she died, If it was a she, it's

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it's an interesting There are cases of this, But no,

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he's not. He's not a member of the Syrian Church

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of the East, is what I'm trying to say. He's Orthodox.

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Speaker 7: So what about people of today, they're not considered Orthdox

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who a Syrian coach of today on considered Orthodox.

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Speaker 5: In your opinion.

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Speaker 2: So look, you're thinking of this as either or black

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and white. There are people in these regions who at

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different time periods can be reconciled to the rest of

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the Church, and that that may not last may or

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may not be there forever. Right. So no, there's no

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such thing as people in the Assyrian Church of the

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East that are Orthodox today.

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Speaker 5: Okay, it's interesting. I really appreciate that conversation. Day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and uh, I I don't know all the details

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all the top of my head, but if you look

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into this you will see that I'm correct. It's just

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not the area that I did not spend a whole

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lot of time on the history of the historians. And

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Kai is actually the dude for that. If you want

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to know the history of the Church of the East,

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that's Kai's whole thing. That's not that's not my thing.

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Kai knows all about that, you know, is way more

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than I do. Kai even knows all the Assyrian terms

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and theological canuma and all these weird words. I don't

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know any of that. Uh tallahouse, see what's up, dude.

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But I'm sure there's people in the chat that know

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more about this than I do. But I remember because

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this came up with Taylor Marshall. Because Taylor mar Chill

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was arguing that the Orthodox are inconsistent, and he was saying, oh,

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Isaac of Nineveh was an historian. And the Orthodox response

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when this came up like four years ago is that no,

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he was actually no general hardened opposition to Chalcedon created

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a final division between the Church of Persia in Saint

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Isaac's day and Chalcidon, whereas for the Monophysites it was clear.

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So the argument here is that there was not a

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clear split of the Assyrian Church of the East. The

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title Assyrian Church of the East is a modern term

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that's used for the modern Assyrian Church of the East,

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so it's wrong to retroactively read that back into the

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Church of Persia in this time period. That's why it says,

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I hear the Church of Persia or the Orthodox Church

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in Persia, which is what it would have been called

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in his day right, is nowadays called the Assyrian Church

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of the East. But that does not mean that in

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his day they were officially the Nestorian Assyrian Church of

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the East. That's what I'm trying to say. And the

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Orthodox view is that he was not in schism. What's up, man,

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tallahause gonna i'mute.

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Speaker 10: Oh yeah, awesome, Yeah, I want to ask you about

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a topic that I feel like, you know, you could

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hear so many different interpretations on different viewpoints across different

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kinds of Christians. But I wanted to ask you, what

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is the Orthodox Church's interpretation on the blasphemy against the

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Holy Spirit passages?

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Speaker 2: That it's rejecting the call of the Spirit until the

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end of your life?

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Speaker 10: Okay, especially it's like the reject the rejection of Christ

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that they just has a like spirit drawing you to Christ.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not a literal, actual thing that verbally can be said.

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Speaker 10: Okay, I was I was just curious. Yeah, I was curious.

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There's so many different viewpoints out there. You know, people

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like discuss debate this and some people like really free

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out about it.

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Speaker 1: But uh oh yeah, I was really I was curious.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. Uh yeah, we've had that. That one

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comes up every now and then. Which is which is fun?

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It's a good question. I I don't I mean, I

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don't know off the top of my head, like every

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patristic exegesis of the passage, but I think typically we

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don't believe that, like there's some you know, incantation that

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if you say it, you could never be saved again.

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I don't know any priests that would tell you, oh,

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you said something against Holy Spirit. Uh, you'll never be saved, goodbye.

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I mean I think everybody would uh would uh if

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you're Orthodox, that priest would hear your concussion? What's up, joker?

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Speaker 1: Hi? Jay?

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Speaker 4: So I got a question on.

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Speaker 11: Uh, maybe I should give it a little bit bit

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of a background. I come from a Mormon background. I'm

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not specifically Mormon right now, but I'm kind of wanting

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to get your thoughts on.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, I'm getting over I'm getting over cold.

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Speaker 11: I'm I'm wondering your thoughts on do you think that

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Joseph Smith was Do you think he was a liar?

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Do you think that the angel morone I came from

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the devil? Do you think that he he hallucinated it?

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Speaker 4: Because that's kind of I'm kind of wondering.

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Speaker 11: Recently, you know, reading Galatians and.

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Speaker 6: And a lot of the.

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Speaker 11: A lot of different New Testament Bible verses without Mormon

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interpretation on it, it seems like, you know, the Mormon

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religion is kind of refuted just with the New Testament

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absolutely about you know, false false angels, false prophecies.

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Speaker 2: How we know, Yeah, it's the same correct and it's

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the same route of reputation that I would go with

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a Muslim, because both religions believe that there's ongoing new revelations.

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When the Orthodox Church early on in the in the

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Early Councils condemned Montanus and in the condonation of Montanism,

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there is the theological position that there's a finality to

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divine revelation. There are no new prophets after the death

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of the apostles. Jesus in Luke sixteen says that John

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was the last of the prophets. Since that time the

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Kingdom God has preached, and so there is no such

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thing as a office of a prophet anymore. That doesn't

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mean there can't be people with clairvoyance or that there

390
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aren't miracles, but in the sense of public, divine dogmatic

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revelation that ceased when John died. There's many other verses

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too that also point out that the faith was quote

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once for all, delivered to the saints in Jude three,

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So that means there cannot be new revelations. And if

395
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there's ongoing new revelations, you couldn't really follow Paul's injunction

396
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in Galatians one to judge everything according to what Paul

397
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laid down. You see. The other thing is that if

398
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you read the Joseph Smith translation of Genesis he created,

399
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he added eleven verses to Genesis fifty to predict himself.

400
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I think that's one und percent, absolute, definitive proof that

401
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he was a con man and a liar. So what

402
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is your Are you familiar with that?

403
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Speaker 6: By the way, Yeah, I am, I know I know that.

404
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Speaker 11: Yeah, he because a lot of that is not in

405
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the Book of Mormon. That's that's one of the is

406
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that they bring people into the Mormon faith is they

407
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preach the Book of Mormon, which is you know, for

408
00:26:07,039 --> 00:26:10,119
you you would be able to pick it apart pretty quickly,

409
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but for a lot of people it.

410
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Speaker 4: Seems internally consistent.

411
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Speaker 11: But then what they do is they add the doctrine

412
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incumvenance and the Pearl of Great Price, right, and like

413
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the the Book of Abraham and.

414
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Speaker 1: Stuff like that.

415
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Speaker 11: Where where now now you thought that you were just

416
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getting in, you got baptized, and now you're learning about

417
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the Pearl of great price.

418
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Speaker 2: It's the same. It's the same with Islam. Yeah, it's

419
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the same with Islam. Where many people will convert because

420
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they oh, Islam is just simple. It's the Quran, and

421
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you know these basic ideas of monotheism, and it's like, no, no,

422
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you gotta believe all these You gotta believe the fart

423
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hadieds dude, you gotta believe that Satan's making you fart.

424
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You gotta believe you know all these I'm serious, there's

425
00:26:54,519 --> 00:26:57,599
multiple fart hediths. You gotta believe all those things too.

426
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Speaker 4: So what do you what do you think is the

427
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:01,400
best way too?

428
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Speaker 6: Because I I'm in.

429
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Speaker 11: A Mormon family myself, like so both sides of my

430
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:16,440
family mother, father, extended family on each side, like they're

431
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:22,480
all like super Mormon. They attend church every Sunday. What

432
00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:24,119
do you think is like the best way that you

433
00:27:24,319 --> 00:27:28,720
found where you can kind of red pill them on

434
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,920
on this topic, but not the super abrasive where we're

435
00:27:34,079 --> 00:27:39,039
like the the instinct of wanting to fight back whenever

436
00:27:39,079 --> 00:27:42,279
they hear anything that is slightly even anti Mormon. What

437
00:27:42,319 --> 00:27:43,920
do you think is the best way to kind of

438
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,480
go about that route of trying to just even talk

439
00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:48,759
to them.

440
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Speaker 2: I'll be honest with you, I don't I've not had

441
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,319
It's only been in the last two years that I've

442
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,079
even had many Mormon interactions and that we've actually been

443
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,519
seeing Mormon's convert. So I don't actually have a lot

444
00:28:01,559 --> 00:28:06,680
of background of debating or interacting with Mormons, because like

445
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,920
in Tennis, you know, I'm from Tennessee, I grew up

446
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in California. I'm in Florida. I mean, there's not a

447
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,599
lot of Mormons. So it's not something that I mean,

448
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,279
I've read and I studied a decent amount about Mormonism,

449
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but it's not a thing that I encounter a lot

450
00:28:19,559 --> 00:28:22,039
until the last couple of years of the channel growing

451
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:24,559
and a lot of people calling in. So I don't

452
00:28:24,559 --> 00:28:29,240
actually know the best route. Probably a former Mormon who's

453
00:28:29,279 --> 00:28:32,119
now Orthodox. I think Elder Millennial is a was a

454
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,920
guy that's on my feed if you find him on Twitter.

455
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I think he used to be a Mormon. He might

456
00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:38,200
be a good guy to ask because I think he

457
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,920
came from a Mormon family. There's another Orthodox guy in

458
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,279
my followers on Twitter. I don't remember his name, but

459
00:28:45,319 --> 00:28:47,599
I know Elder Millennial I think was a Mormon. I

460
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,279
would ask him, so dm that dude or follow that dude,

461
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,599
But I would say, just kind of going by my intuition,

462
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I think both Mormons and Muslims kind of have this

463
00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:10,279
idea that our revelation is kind of it's in continuity

464
00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:13,640
with what came before, but it's superior. But the problem

465
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,480
is that the prior revelation that we have, whether it's

466
00:29:16,519 --> 00:29:21,480
Deuteronomy thirteen, Deuteramy eighteen, Galatians one, Jude three, like, it

467
00:29:21,599 --> 00:29:26,079
lays down strictures that prior to the supposed new revelation,

468
00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:29,079
whether it's Muhammed or Joseph Smith, like, the new revelations

469
00:29:29,079 --> 00:29:31,720
have to match up to the old. And what both

470
00:29:31,759 --> 00:29:34,000
Mormons and Muslims do is say, no, no, no, the old

471
00:29:34,039 --> 00:29:36,240
revelation has to be judged by the new. But that's

472
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,160
what every cult leader and sectarian birdo says. But the

473
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,319
prior revelation tells them. And by the way, even the

474
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,799
Quran I've got right here. I know you're not Muslim,

475
00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:48,920
but it's very illustrative because it's exact same principle.

476
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:49,119
Speaker 1: Right.

477
00:29:49,119 --> 00:29:52,519
Speaker 2: The Quran says, right here, let the people of the

478
00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:57,039
Gospel judge what has by what Allah has revealed in it.

479
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,440
So the people of the Gospel, the people of the book,

480
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,519
the people of the prior revelations are supposed to look

481
00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:07,440
and see, oh, look the Koran is consistent with previous revelation.

482
00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:10,400
And what does every Muslim do when you point out

483
00:30:10,799 --> 00:30:13,319
the multitudes of places where it's not, Oh, well that's

484
00:30:13,319 --> 00:30:16,240
where it's corrupted. You see. Well that's a double standard.

485
00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:19,200
And Mormon does exact same thing when they say, well,

486
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,720
we believe the previous revelation, but oh it turns out

487
00:30:21,759 --> 00:30:24,559
it was corrupted, and Joseph is fixing all the private

488
00:30:24,559 --> 00:30:27,000
prior corruptions. Well now wait a minute, Joseph Smith is

489
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,000
fixing the pro ruptions. Why is he adding eleven verses

490
00:30:31,039 --> 00:30:33,119
to Genesis or whatever that is? That sounds like a

491
00:30:33,119 --> 00:30:34,279
con man, not a you know.

492
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:35,079
Speaker 1: Correct.

493
00:30:35,839 --> 00:30:39,119
Speaker 11: Well, so, but what's your take on do you think

494
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:45,960
that so it Jesseus Smith got visited by the angel Moroni?

495
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:53,079
Do you think that that visitation was like satanic or devilish?

496
00:30:53,359 --> 00:30:54,359
Speaker 2: I don't know, it could be.

497
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,279
Speaker 6: I mean, it's entirely just in your in your opinion.

498
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,359
Speaker 4: I'm not I'm not saying you have to.

499
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:02,759
Speaker 2: I believe it could go either I could you could

500
00:31:02,799 --> 00:31:05,440
go either way. So, just like with Mohammed, you know,

501
00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:08,440
when he first started having these so called revelations, he

502
00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:10,559
was falling on the ground in seizures and he thought

503
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:13,960
he was possessed. That's in one of the hydiths. And

504
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:18,119
so it's entirely possible that Joseph Smith. I did see

505
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,200
some texts many years ago which there was an ex

506
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,079
Mormon channel that used to be on YouTube, and I

507
00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:24,799
don't think you can find it anymore, but they were

508
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,359
uploading old Mormon texts where there was evidence that Joseph

509
00:31:28,359 --> 00:31:32,359
Smith was interested in ritual magic. Now, maybe those were

510
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:33,279
not real texts.

511
00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: I don't.

512
00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:36,759
Speaker 2: I don't know, I didn't, but if they were real texts,

513
00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:40,519
it's entirely possible that he was involved in occultic type

514
00:31:40,519 --> 00:31:42,640
stuff and he thought he was, you know, interacting with

515
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,160
spirits or you know, he his magic peep stone or

516
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,519
whatever that story like. Maybe he's just a comment. I

517
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:51,279
don't Either way, it doesn't matter to me.

518
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,599
Speaker 11: Okay, I have one other quick question. It's actually not

519
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,440
about Mormon theology or anything like that.

520
00:31:58,599 --> 00:32:03,559
Speaker 4: Sure, I was in a space yesterday and they it.

521
00:32:03,599 --> 00:32:08,799
Speaker 11: Was a question about of you know, the the Catholic

522
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,599
Marian dogmas. I know that there's differences between I'm leading

523
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,039
more Catholic than Orthodox.

524
00:32:14,359 --> 00:32:16,559
Speaker 4: I'm not really one side or.

525
00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 11: The other, but I know that they're that the Orthodox

526
00:32:20,039 --> 00:32:24,599
does have Marian dogmas.

527
00:32:22,759 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 4: Such as like the perpetual virginity.

528
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I mean we agree with Catholics on that one,

529
00:32:29,039 --> 00:32:31,440
but we do not believe in the mechanical conception because

530
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,079
we don't believe in the Latin ideas of original sin.

531
00:32:36,519 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 11: Okay, yeah, so what about Because I was posed with

532
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,599
the question of, well, what does it even matter believing

533
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:44,799
in that?

534
00:32:45,279 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 6: Does that?

535
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:48,599
Speaker 4: Does it save you? Does it not save you? Do

536
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,160
you really have to believe in that?

537
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,039
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is that they just in Orthodox theology,

538
00:32:53,119 --> 00:32:55,599
all the doctrines are kind of bound up together and

539
00:32:55,599 --> 00:33:01,720
they're interconnected. So, for example, mariology, as St. Cyril says

540
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,079
at Ephesus, is crucial to the Gospel because calling Mary

541
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,799
theotokos literally is an expression, as Cyril says, of the Gospel,

542
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,839
it means that the person that came forth from her,

543
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:16,400
that she gives birth to is a divine person and

544
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,839
identical to the second person of the Godhead. So for Cyril,

545
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:24,160
the word theotokos, he says, is a summation of the Gospel.

546
00:33:24,559 --> 00:33:30,880
So the soteriology and mariology and Christology, they're all really

547
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,359
just implications of one another, and they go together. So

548
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,599
that's why they matter, is that they all it's a

549
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,839
golden chain. What you believe about Christology is going to

550
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,640
determine your ecclesiology, It's going to determine your sacramentology. So

551
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,559
that's why they all standard for all together.

552
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,759
Speaker 6: Well, what if you what if you have a.

553
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 11: Perfect idea of like let's just let's just say go in,

554
00:33:58,039 --> 00:33:59,960
go into a Catholics Maan, I know you're not Catholic,

555
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:04,400
But what if what if I believed in every single

556
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,800
Catholic doctrine, but I just rejected the Marian dogmas like

557
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,719
and I think there's a little bit of a part

558
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,039
of the Orthodox Church that could agree with this, But

559
00:34:17,119 --> 00:34:19,679
what would you lose your salvation?

560
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,519
Speaker 4: Like, do you you have to accept every single yes

561
00:34:25,079 --> 00:34:25,920
to be saved?

562
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 5: You have to do you have to accept those to

563
00:34:28,519 --> 00:34:28,920
be saved?

564
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,519
Speaker 2: You have to accept every dogma to be saved. In

565
00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:35,599
the Roman Catholic system and in the Orthodox view, dogmas

566
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:38,880
by definition are not negotiable. So in other words, you

567
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,840
can read Mestichi Corporus, you can read Southeast Cognedium, you

568
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,239
can read when I'm Song to Them, you can read

569
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,800
Vatican One from the Roman Calic side. They all state

570
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,760
that everything proposed by the magisterium for belief is necessary

571
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:57,039
to believe. In non negotiable Orthodox Church, we don't have

572
00:34:57,079 --> 00:34:59,000
the Magisterium of the papacy and all that, but we

573
00:34:59,159 --> 00:35:03,360
have the the ecumenical councils, we have the dogmatic definitions

574
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,440
from those councils, and you know the niceno constablitan creed.

575
00:35:07,079 --> 00:35:10,760
Uh So, yeah, you can't can't negotiate.

576
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 11: Arguing if you're arguing with a with a Protestant that

577
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,760
doesn't believe in all those you know, the the church

578
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,760
fathers and the traditions and the history.

579
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 6: What what would you.

580
00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:29,119
Speaker 4: Say of, Well, no, this is this is a this

581
00:35:29,199 --> 00:35:31,719
is a logical Christian.

582
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,199
Speaker 11: Reasoning for why you you have to accept these these

583
00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:40,719
dogmas and doctrines that may not be specifically laid out

584
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,719
in the Bible, but it's still a part of salvation.

585
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,519
Speaker 2: Well, because there's all kinds of things that the Bible

586
00:35:50,599 --> 00:35:56,000
doesn't directly deal with or treat that even many Protestants

587
00:35:56,079 --> 00:35:59,280
would admit are necessary. For example, the doctrine of the Trinity,

588
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,519
all though found in many passages of the Bible, is

589
00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:07,280
a doctrine that is explicated outside of the Bible. And

590
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,920
there's other things too that are even if you're a Protestant,

591
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,119
I mean, if you believe in soul scriptura, well, the

592
00:36:13,159 --> 00:36:15,559
canon of the scriptures was something that's not in the Bible,

593
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,760
so you have to look to extra canonical things for that.

594
00:36:19,519 --> 00:36:22,920
So I don't think anybody really is consistent with this

595
00:36:23,079 --> 00:36:26,519
idea of only believing what's in the Bible for salvation. Nobody,

596
00:36:26,519 --> 00:36:27,639
nobody's consistent with that.

597
00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 11: So you're kind of you're kind of going with the

598
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:36,079
reasoning of the birth of Jesus Christ came from Mary, right,

599
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:41,199
she was the theotokos. So having a correct holistic view

600
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:49,119
of who Mary is directly involves your your perception of

601
00:36:49,159 --> 00:36:52,440
who Jesus Christ is. It's kind of it's kind of related,

602
00:36:52,519 --> 00:36:53,679
like all that is related.

603
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mary, That's why I'm saying Mary and doctrines are

604
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,880
an outworking of Christology. That's the argument of cyril at ephesis.

605
00:37:01,079 --> 00:37:05,159
Speaker 4: But so for the and I don't I'm not even.

606
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 11: Prepared for any debate at all of the assumption of Mary.

607
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,320
Speaker 4: But if we're following your logic.

608
00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 11: Since the assumption of you would I guess you would,

609
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:18,679
you would reject the assumption.

610
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,119
Speaker 2: Of many we believe in the body of the Orthodox

611
00:37:21,199 --> 00:37:24,000
Church believes in it because it's actually an Eastern feast

612
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:25,559
of the dormssion.

613
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 4: You said earlier that you know.

614
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: You don't believe immaculate conception is not an Orthodox teaching

615
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,679
because immaculate conception is bound up with the Augustinian view

616
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,039
of what original sin is and the idea of a

617
00:37:39,199 --> 00:37:45,079
taint of original sin that has passed on through seminal transmission. Okay,

618
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,239
but now you said you said you find also is

619
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,519
the more convincing the Orthodoxy? Why I always find this odd?

620
00:37:53,679 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 1: Why? Well?

621
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 11: I I am a grouper, after all, I I listened

622
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,039
to Nick, But I don't get my Catholic faith from Nick.

623
00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 4: I kind of just got the.

624
00:38:05,119 --> 00:38:08,039
Speaker 2: The song po political stuff is.

625
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,119
Speaker 11: No no, I I I I have more gotten it

626
00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:17,079
from Trent Horn and and Sam Schimoon and and guys

627
00:38:17,119 --> 00:38:17,440
like that.

628
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 2: So what would be one er, what would be one

629
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,239
or two arguments that they present for the Catholic position

630
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,039
that is more consistent or more convincing than the Orthodox position.

631
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:38,159
Speaker 4: I feel like that I I think that the papacy

632
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,719
is the best way to and and you know, I'm

633
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:43,920
I'm a Mormon and.

634
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,199
Speaker 11: So there's actually a little bit of a there's a

635
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,639
thing that Mormons and Catholics can agree on.

636
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,119
Speaker 1: Well, that's a good one.

637
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 11: But I would say that having having a have having

638
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:06,519
a leader, having authority of of your beliefs, and having

639
00:39:06,559 --> 00:39:09,320
someone that is is infallible.

640
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,119
Speaker 5: Okay, just and just and I'll finish.

641
00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:14,119
Speaker 4: I'll finish with this and I'll let you respond.

642
00:39:14,159 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 11: But in my mind, I think that there has to

643
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,599
be someone that is infallible to interpret the.

644
00:39:22,519 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 4: Bible, which is also infallible.

645
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,800
Speaker 11: If you don't have someone that is infallible to interpret

646
00:39:29,119 --> 00:39:31,639
something that is purpose, something that is you know, as

647
00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:36,199
as Protestants would would say, you know, God breathed, then

648
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,119
it's it comes into interpretation.

649
00:39:39,599 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: Between them, and I understand. So you're still going to

650
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,400
say that about Okay, so the pope does that, But

651
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,119
how does that actually help you on an individual basis

652
00:39:48,599 --> 00:39:51,840
when you're still fallible and you now got to interpret

653
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,400
all the papal documents, So how is it not just

654
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:55,480
moving the problem back and stuff?

655
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 4: It doesn't And and I kind of.

656
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,039
Speaker 11: For me, I want to be personally, I want to

657
00:40:06,519 --> 00:40:13,840
know every single thing about the traditional churches, and.

658
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 2: But I don't know. But aside from all that, a more

659
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,280
fundamental question is what I'm asking, which is okay, so

660
00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:25,559
you're saying, I want a guy who's going to be

661
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,760
the arbiter, who can, you know, tell me the right interpretation?

662
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:33,079
And I'm saying, isn't that begging the question and just

663
00:40:33,199 --> 00:40:36,159
moving the problem back and stuff? Because now you are

664
00:40:36,159 --> 00:40:39,239
going to be interpreting the pope's words about the scriptures?

665
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,440
So how does that solve that dilemma? I don't understand.

666
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:47,519
Speaker 4: Sorry, you cut it.

667
00:40:47,599 --> 00:40:49,599
Speaker 11: I don't know if it happened to anyone else, but

668
00:40:49,639 --> 00:40:50,199
you cut out.

669
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,639
Speaker 2: I said, how how does it solve the dilemma by

670
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,719
just adding another step to the equation and saying that

671
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,519
the pope is going to solve the interpretive issues? Well,

672
00:41:00,079 --> 00:41:07,960
you have to interpret all the paper writings, which are voluminous.

673
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 11: Well, and it's very hard for me because I look

674
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,000
at this is the reason that I can I can

675
00:41:21,199 --> 00:41:23,840
easily break through or kind of say.

676
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 4: Why I came to at least like a Catholic reasoning.

677
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 11: Is because I listened to all of the all of

678
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:37,559
the Protestant positions on you know, infant baptism or you know,

679
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,639
water baptismal regeneration.

680
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:41,800
Speaker 2: Why does.

681
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:44,599
Speaker 4: Believe in the Marion dogmas?

682
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,079
Speaker 2: How does that prove with I mean if if a Christian,

683
00:41:47,119 --> 00:41:49,480
if a Christian lives a debate to a Muslim, does

684
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,239
that make his launchry?

685
00:41:53,639 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 1: Well?

686
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,559
Speaker 11: But the the problem is is that when you look

687
00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:03,199
at I came to Cathosa because I understood that Protestantism

688
00:42:03,679 --> 00:42:05,159
didn't really hold any water.

689
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:06,159
Speaker 4: Because they don't.

690
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:12,119
Speaker 11: They don't have any authority to say, well, well, should.

691
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 4: We baptize infants? Should we even have baptism at all?

692
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:17,960
Should just should it be through water? Should it be

693
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:18,760
through a handshake?

694
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:21,159
Speaker 6: Should we?

695
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 2: But how does that tell you? How does that tell

696
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:24,360
you that? How does that tell you the difference between

697
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,519
the Orthodox or the Catholic? So Protestants are wrong, agreed,

698
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,159
How does that tell you true?

699
00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:31,679
Speaker 1: It doesn't.

700
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:36,079
Speaker 6: Okay, I'll admit that, like I don't. I don't think

701
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:36,320
it does.

702
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,119
Speaker 2: Now you're a groper. So as a groper, I'm curious.

703
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,079
I mean, when Francis goes and praise in the synagogues,

704
00:42:42,599 --> 00:42:46,760
how does that make Catholicism convincing? I don't understand.

705
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 4: You said, when Pope Francis.

706
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,760
Speaker 2: And John Paul the Second, when they go and pray

707
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:56,280
in the synagogues. How does that? How is that consistent

708
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:57,440
with what you're looking for?

709
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 4: I mean, can I don't.

710
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,559
Speaker 2: I mean every gropper I've ever seen is pretty critical

711
00:43:11,639 --> 00:43:14,960
of rabbinical Judaism.

712
00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 11: Right, well, yeah, per personally, I don't think that he

713
00:43:18,079 --> 00:43:24,599
should be doing anything in a synagogue because, yeah, in

714
00:43:24,639 --> 00:43:30,119
a synagogue they believe that in a compute a completely

715
00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:36,039
bristical view of monotheism, which is which is anti trinitarianism.

716
00:43:35,199 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: Absolutely, by the way, but have you read Vatican two?

717
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: I have not.

718
00:43:40,079 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, because guess what Vatican two turns out you're

719
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,199
going to be in another situation of what you were

720
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:48,719
just talking about with the Mormons, where you join it

721
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,239
and then oh, it turns out you actually got to

722
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,320
believe this other thing because in lumin Gentiem sixteen it

723
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,039
says that Muslims hold the faith of Abraham just like

724
00:43:57,159 --> 00:44:00,000
Roman Catholics do, and that they all worship the same

725
00:44:00,039 --> 00:44:03,840
odd no state says the exact same thing. So if

726
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,679
you if what you said is correct that Jews do

727
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,599
not have the right faith because they're quote monotheist and

728
00:44:10,599 --> 00:44:14,119
not trinitarian, then you're just you are now refuting and

729
00:44:14,159 --> 00:44:16,719
rejecting Vatican two, which says that exact thing.

730
00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 11: Well, yeah, and and you got to give me a

731
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:26,880
little bit of grace and charity though, because I haven't. No,

732
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,599
I think I think that you are and you know,

733
00:44:29,679 --> 00:44:32,239
I'm not. I think that you bring up a lot

734
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:37,360
of good points, and you know, I've I've watched you,

735
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:38,119
I've watched.

736
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:38,679
Speaker 4: Debates that you're in.

737
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 11: I think that you're very knowledgeable and and I completely.

738
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:45,199
Speaker 6: I don't.

739
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 4: I don't disregard anything that you said.

740
00:44:47,039 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 11: I think that I am not ideologically prepared for a

741
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:56,320
discussion on on Vatican Team.

742
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 2: That's whine. I'm not trying to drop you. I'm not

743
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:00,400
trying to trap you. I'm just trying to make the

744
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,119
point that the very thing that you express concern about

745
00:45:04,159 --> 00:45:05,880
originally in the debate, which I think is a very

746
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,400
profound point, which is that sometimes groups will give the

747
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,519
impression that when you convert, it's just these simple things

748
00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:14,199
that you have to believe, and then you later find

749
00:45:14,199 --> 00:45:16,880
out no, there's actually also these other things that you

750
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,320
also got to believe that are problematic that they didn't

751
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:23,079
tell you about initially, like Perl of great Price, doction

752
00:45:23,199 --> 00:45:26,360
and covenants, etc. These things are later added on, and

753
00:45:26,559 --> 00:45:28,920
I'm telling you that it's exact same thing. When you

754
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,719
join the Roman Catholic Church, you're going to learn that

755
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,559
you do not get the right to reject or criticize

756
00:45:35,039 --> 00:45:39,039
anything that's dogmatic or proposed as belief. And all the

757
00:45:39,079 --> 00:45:42,079
ecumenical councils in the Roman Catholic Church are papally approved

758
00:45:42,079 --> 00:45:45,480
and thus dogmatic, including Vatican one and Vatican two. And

759
00:45:45,519 --> 00:45:49,239
so you don't get the option to reject lumin GENTM

760
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:54,320
sixteen or no Stratate four, which is very problematic, I

761
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,159
would argue. So, not trying to call you out or whatever,

762
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,000
I'm just encouraging you to not finow into the exact

763
00:46:01,039 --> 00:46:03,719
same thing. And I appreciate your questions are going to

764
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,199
move on that you will experience as well. And I

765
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,559
say that as a person who was in the tradcat

766
00:46:10,599 --> 00:46:15,000
world for around eight ten years somewhere in there. All right,

767
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:16,960
we got still got a lot of people in line

768
00:46:17,039 --> 00:46:21,199
seventeen ish people who disagrees. Raise your hand. If you disagree,

769
00:46:21,199 --> 00:46:28,679
you go to the head of line. Alex, are you

770
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,000
putting up one hundred percent because you disagree? I don't

771
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,760
know what one hundred percent means, does that mean you disagree?

772
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,800
Raise your hand if you disagree, could we'll go to

773
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,960
Alex since he says he oh my.

774
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 12: Gosh, hi jed Mary nativity even what's up?

775
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 1: I'm a Coptic Orthodox. I just had a quick question.

776
00:46:59,519 --> 00:47:02,360
Why do you disagree with the idea of one nature?

777
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:09,119
Speaker 2: Because nature signifies the same thing that it signifies in

778
00:47:09,159 --> 00:47:12,440
the trinity, which is the thing that makes it that thing,

779
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:17,639
and so Christ can't have a tertium quid. So if

780
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,960
one nature is what Christ has in terms of the

781
00:47:20,039 --> 00:47:23,000
hyposthetic union, then it's a turtion quid.

782
00:47:27,039 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: What does like internion quit meaning to be exactly.

783
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:43,639
Speaker 2: Moving on, Daniel, I think was next tertium quid? Third thing?

784
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,920
Not tertion quid. And I'm not trure to me mean,

785
00:47:47,159 --> 00:47:53,000
but not playing the Coptic Oriental game. If you want

786
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:57,719
to listen to our critiques, go watch our part one

787
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,320
in part two six hours ahead.

788
00:48:01,639 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 13: Hello, yep, Yeah, So I had a question about Eastern

789
00:48:06,039 --> 00:48:11,239
Orthodox rebaptisms from people coming from other faith traditions. Okay,

790
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,679
so to me, it's a little confusing. I've asked a

791
00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:16,719
lot of Eastern Orthodox. They tell me, go ask your priests,

792
00:48:17,079 --> 00:48:19,800
who ask your bishop, But it sounds like you could

793
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:21,920
get a different answer on whether.

794
00:48:22,039 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's because we don't believe there's a one size

795
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,239
fits all. It's a question of economia.

796
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 4: Okay.

797
00:48:28,559 --> 00:48:33,760
Speaker 2: So the Sixth Ecumenical Council gives different accounts in different situations,

798
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,760
as do the Canons of Nicea, for the reception of

799
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,920
different people in different situations. So a priest who is

800
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,960
received back from the Novations and Nicea is received by

801
00:48:43,079 --> 00:48:45,960
vesting or by just simply profession of faith because he

802
00:48:46,079 --> 00:48:51,559
was already ordained. People that were ordained in a Unitarian

803
00:48:51,599 --> 00:48:55,280
baptism in the Canons of the Sixth Econmentical Council are

804
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:57,800
said to need to be rebaptized and received in a

805
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:02,280
different way. So there's a lot of kanonical precedent for

806
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,039
it being the decision of a local bishop to decide

807
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:09,000
on a case by case basis how they should be received.

808
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:10,039
Speaker 1: Okay.

809
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 13: So you're saying, like, and I agree with you completely

810
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:16,360
on Unitarian or Mormon baptisms, but that could also include

811
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:17,800
a Roman Catholic baptism as well.

812
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: There have been different ways and times at which people

813
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,679
from a Roman Catholic church were received. The Serbs did

814
00:49:23,679 --> 00:49:27,719
not rebaptized, or it's not rebaptism, it's just baptism, and

815
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:32,000
even Roman Catholics practice conditional baptism, so it's basically the

816
00:49:32,039 --> 00:49:37,480
same idea. But that is different from the question of

817
00:49:37,519 --> 00:49:44,440
whether this canonical allowance is abused at times for acumenist reasons.

818
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,880
And so acrevia is just as important as economia. Economia

819
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:52,519
is flexibility on a case by case basis, but acrevia

820
00:49:52,639 --> 00:49:55,719
is also the stricture of trying to be accurate according

821
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:56,400
to the canons.

822
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: Okay, I gotcha.

823
00:49:58,519 --> 00:50:01,280
Speaker 13: And if I could just ask one work question about

824
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,320
nicea too. So where it talks about, yeah, where it

825
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,280
talks about there's a phrase in it that's a Catholic

826
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:10,000
actually brought.

827
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:10,159
Speaker 1: Up to me.

828
00:50:10,199 --> 00:50:13,159
Speaker 13: It says, those who do not salute the Holy icons

829
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,920
let them be anathema. I'm a little confused at what

830
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,719
that means. Does that mean that icon veneration is absolutely

831
00:50:20,199 --> 00:50:22,440
necessary every time you enter a church?

832
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 4: Like, what does that mean?

833
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,039
Speaker 2: No, it's talking about the people who are iconoclasts. If

834
00:50:28,039 --> 00:50:31,480
you teach iconoclasm, you're an anathema. It's not some weird

835
00:50:31,639 --> 00:50:34,360
like mandate about every single instance.

836
00:50:35,559 --> 00:50:41,800
Speaker 13: Okay, okay, So they're addressing so that's that's not addressed

837
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,559
to believers when it says that that's addressed to people

838
00:50:44,559 --> 00:50:46,719
who are anti icons.

839
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,199
Speaker 2: Right, the whole council is against the iconic class.

840
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:50,679
Speaker 14: Okay, got you.

841
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,519
Speaker 13: So you would say, as an Orthodox person that it's

842
00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:57,519
good to salute icons, but it's not like I'm required, No, you.

843
00:50:57,440 --> 00:50:59,760
Speaker 2: Are required to. I was making the point that it's

844
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:01,679
not like if I walk into the church and I

845
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,440
accidentally didn't do this icon over here, and I did

846
00:51:05,480 --> 00:51:09,400
the other fifty nine gone dawn. It's not a legalistic

847
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,400
being counting thing. It is saying against all the iconoclasts

848
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:18,119
as heretics, and that's for our day in time. Protestants, Muslims,

849
00:51:18,119 --> 00:51:21,719
et cetera. All of those people are anathema because they

850
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,280
don't follow the theology of the Council, which is an

851
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,719
outworking of the incarnation. To reject icons is ultimately to

852
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:28,639
reject the incarnation.

853
00:51:29,679 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 13: Right, right, So does it specify what the veneration exactly

854
00:51:34,119 --> 00:51:37,280
is like for example, there's people who bow, there's people

855
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,840
who might kiss it. There's might some people who might

856
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,679
look at the icon because of what it represents, Like,

857
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:44,920
do you have to do a specific type or is

858
00:51:45,039 --> 00:51:47,159
any type like acceptable.

859
00:51:47,599 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's a lot of that tradition.

860
00:51:50,639 --> 00:51:52,920
A lot of that's what you would do to a

861
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,239
person who was in authority or reverence. It comes out

862
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,000
of ancient Near Eastern traditions. I mean Joseph bows before

863
00:52:00,119 --> 00:52:05,159
or Pharaoh Elijah bows before Elijah. I mean kissing is okay,

864
00:52:05,159 --> 00:52:07,599
you don't get Brady, get each other, Brady, greet each

865
00:52:07,599 --> 00:52:09,760
other and the brethren with a holy kiss. As Paul says,

866
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,199
So some of this is out of the ancient Middle

867
00:52:12,199 --> 00:52:16,039
Eastern traditions. Some of it is just normal expressions of affection.

868
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:21,639
Speaker 13: I mean, yeah, yeah, well thanks Jay, I appreciate.

869
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: You having me a wonderful rest to night.

870
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, those are good questions. I wasn't trying to be rude,

871
00:52:30,079 --> 00:52:32,440
all right, Well, looking for if you have questions. If

872
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:34,360
you disagree, feel free to raise your hand. It is

873
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:38,760
the year of love. I hope I have been successful

874
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:45,679
tonight in being loving. I think only one guy got

875
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:49,760
this sort of boot, but I think everybody agrees that

876
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:54,360
he was sort of a ridiculous clown character. So we've

877
00:52:54,400 --> 00:53:05,360
been We've been loving. Parker disagrees. What's up, Parker, Hey, Hey, I.

878
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,239
Speaker 15: Got a question about the time frame in which councils

879
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:12,559
can be overturned. So like in HYRIEA right obviously second

880
00:53:12,559 --> 00:53:16,039
council and CEO overturns on their councils. Is there a

881
00:53:16,079 --> 00:53:19,239
time frame or could like if everyone in the Orthodox

882
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,519
got together had a medical council and they just like

883
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:26,159
say stuff, but they could overturn previous counsels.

884
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:30,599
Speaker 2: I'm not aware of any argument or tradition about time

885
00:53:30,639 --> 00:53:32,760
frames canonically, I don't know.

886
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,199
Speaker 15: So would it be like logically following then they could

887
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:38,960
overturn one like a thousand years ago.

888
00:53:39,039 --> 00:53:43,840
Speaker 2: Or well, I don't think that. Like, so an Orthodox council,

889
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,199
for example, that's been accepted and received throughout the whole

890
00:53:46,199 --> 00:53:50,519
world could not be like retroactively negated, because that would

891
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:55,760
basically mean that the church was universally deceived. But I

892
00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:00,480
think councils that occur that eventually are rejected were never

893
00:54:00,679 --> 00:54:04,480
accepted by the whole and never achieved universal acceptance.

894
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 15: Okay, okay, yeah, I got one more question. It's about

895
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:16,039
a scripture. But I was gonna say, for in terms

896
00:54:16,039 --> 00:54:19,719
of whenever I get into the faith works echotomy or

897
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:21,840
debate or whatever, it just turns into quote minds of

898
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:24,400
Ephesians two eight and nine, like James and stuff.

899
00:54:24,519 --> 00:54:27,199
Speaker 5: So how would you How does the Orthodox.

900
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 15: Position harmonize something like Ephesians sweet nine with the Book

901
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,599
of James and stuff like that, because to me, it doesn't.

902
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,440
It's hard for me to harmonize on either side. It

903
00:54:35,519 --> 00:54:37,960
seems kind of contradictory.

904
00:54:38,039 --> 00:54:40,639
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, first of all, the works that we

905
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:44,239
do are works that are accepted by God in grace

906
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:47,719
and done through grace. So we could agree with Augustine

907
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,760
on that point that even when we do good works,

908
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,199
we are really just you know, I think his phrase

909
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:57,079
is something like God's crowning his own gifts. So even

910
00:54:57,079 --> 00:55:00,679
the good works that we present their gifts from God too,

911
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:04,280
whether they are our own nature or whether they're by grace,

912
00:55:04,639 --> 00:55:09,239
they're still gracious in the sense that their gifts from God.

913
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,039
So good works are still.

914
00:55:11,079 --> 00:55:12,079
Speaker 5: Because of deification.

915
00:55:12,639 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: Would that be why? Yeah?

916
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, So like the good works that we do.

917
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,800
Paul says in Thessalonians that it is the power of

918
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:26,559
God at work in him to do good. Right, he

919
00:55:26,639 --> 00:55:29,719
calls himself a co worker with Christ because it is

920
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,280
the energy of Christ in him working, and he's working

921
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,079
with Christ. So there's a synergy there. So, but even

922
00:55:36,119 --> 00:55:40,360
if there's synergy, we don't get to account it as

923
00:55:40,639 --> 00:55:45,239
merits because that even the natural energy that we have

924
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:47,559
is a proper work, proper to our human nature, that's

925
00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:49,920
still a gift from God too. So everything they have

926
00:55:50,079 --> 00:55:53,960
is from God, whether it's nature or grace, right, whether

927
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:57,320
it's synergy, theosis, all of it is a gift. So

928
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,280
there's really no place for boasting, even though we do

929
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,599
believe that works are necessary. Another way to go about

930
00:56:03,599 --> 00:56:05,960
this argument is to point out that every time God

931
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,559
makes the covenant with people throughout the Old Testament, even Abraham.

932
00:56:09,639 --> 00:56:13,679
If if you read Genesis twenty two, God makes clear

933
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,559
that in the Abramic covenant there were still stipulations and requirements.

934
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:21,559
So there's never a time when the covenant relationship and

935
00:56:21,599 --> 00:56:24,519
God always has a relationship with humans via covenant, there's

936
00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:28,559
never a time when there's not stipulations and requirements for

937
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:30,960
both parties in the covenant. And that means works are

938
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:34,000
always necessary. But there's never a point where you merit

939
00:56:34,599 --> 00:56:38,519
the enough of the of the good works, because it's

940
00:56:38,559 --> 00:56:41,679
always by grace. Even the works are by grace.

941
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 15: Okay, yeah, I think those are all my questions about

942
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:47,360
the weird question of you.

943
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 5: I just always wondered that.

944
00:56:49,199 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

945
00:56:50,159 --> 00:56:53,679
Speaker 2: Another way to approach this question is to, yeah, thank you.

946
00:56:54,079 --> 00:56:56,960
If you go to the psalms. In many of the psalms,

947
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,400
and yes, we know that the psalms are David speaking

948
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,400
through the spirit of Christ, as Peter says, So there

949
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,840
are many of them obviously messianic, but they're also actually

950
00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,719
David writing and composing the psalms and speaking. So it's

951
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:13,360
an application to David himself and his life, and prophetically

952
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:16,280
to Christ and his work. But you'll notice in many

953
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,159
of the psalms David says, you know my works. My

954
00:57:20,239 --> 00:57:23,079
works are laid out before you. I have been faithful

955
00:57:23,119 --> 00:57:27,599
to you. I have not done wrong. Hear me? Oh God, Well,

956
00:57:28,119 --> 00:57:30,880
I mean, as David a believer in works righteousness. I

957
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,679
mean some Protestants are actually so goofy that they'll actually say, yes, no,

958
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,480
David actually believe that his salvation was by works, which

959
00:57:36,519 --> 00:57:39,039
is dumb because Paul says it was never by works,

960
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,760
whether you're David or Abraham, all salvation always is by grace. Okay, well,

961
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,599
then how was David able to, you know, make so

962
00:57:46,719 --> 00:57:50,360
many psalms talking about the fact that he had kept

963
00:57:50,360 --> 00:57:54,760
God's covenant, and even keeping the covenant does not mean

964
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:59,480
sinless because within the covenant, even the most strict mosaic

965
00:57:59,559 --> 00:58:03,679
covenant included ways to deal with sin.

966
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 5: So oh right, so like that would kind of make sense.

967
00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:12,159
Then I've you heard the phrase like.

968
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,559
Speaker 15: A lot of Orthodox people say, like God has saved me,

969
00:58:16,199 --> 00:58:18,800
is saving me, and in the future you will continue, right,

970
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:19,800
So that kind of makes sense.

971
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:24,159
Speaker 5: Within that framework, that would be an outworking of deification

972
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:25,400
kind of does that make sense?

973
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Salvation is a one time event where it begins

974
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,079
and then it's a process, and then it's an eschatological

975
00:58:31,199 --> 00:58:33,519
final event. So it's all those right.

976
00:58:34,239 --> 00:58:36,000
Speaker 4: And then one more.

977
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:39,719
Speaker 15: Sorry I have another Orthodox question, but Jonathan Joe said

978
00:58:39,719 --> 00:58:41,639
that the Orthodox teaches, the.

979
00:58:41,679 --> 00:58:45,239
Speaker 7: Orthodox Church teaches that the reason why it's like kill off.

980
00:58:45,159 --> 00:58:46,880
Speaker 15: Your passions and all that type stuff is because you

981
00:58:46,920 --> 00:58:49,639
don't change when you die, so those passions will be

982
00:58:49,679 --> 00:58:52,119
with you in the escotone kind of like.

983
00:58:53,719 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 5: And that's just the cut off point, right.

984
00:58:55,800 --> 00:58:58,039
Speaker 2: Well, we do pray for the for those that die

985
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:02,960
because they might still have have some attachments like that.

986
00:59:03,199 --> 00:59:07,039
So yeah, when you die, like the reason the church

987
00:59:07,119 --> 00:59:10,320
prays for you and that you're you're included in the liturgy.

988
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,159
Is that most likely you were not you know fully

989
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:14,599
sanctified before your death?

990
00:59:14,719 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 1: Right?

991
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 2: Yeah?

992
00:59:15,599 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 5: Okay, So then.

993
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,679
Speaker 15: In terms of theosis then the Orthodox framework, is it

994
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:25,480
like I always wanted this question, is it like, is

995
00:59:25,519 --> 00:59:28,320
it like a percentage and is it like, are you

996
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:32,360
like ten percent, say Earth, you know, deified or.

997
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:34,239
Speaker 2: How would that work? No, it's a it's a never

998
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:39,199
ending assent. In fact, the Cappadocians and Palamas describe it like, uh,

999
00:59:40,199 --> 00:59:44,400
the language is sometimes used as if there's portions, but

1000
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:48,679
strictly speaking, there's no portions to God. So it's a

1001
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,719
never ending spiral up into God is what the Cappa

1002
00:59:51,719 --> 00:59:52,679
Docans describe.

1003
00:59:53,559 --> 00:59:57,079
Speaker 15: Okay, that makes sense too because, like you say, it

1004
00:59:57,559 --> 01:00:00,840
continues into the afterlife as well, the sanctification.

1005
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, we never stopped being deified, correct, because God is

1006
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,920
infinite and endless. There's no there's no point at which

1007
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,119
you like, Okay, I'm done being deified because I've used

1008
01:00:11,199 --> 01:00:13,800
up all my God points right right right?

1009
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:14,119
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1010
01:00:14,199 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 5: And that's where is that where you would say the

1011
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:16,639
process go.

1012
01:00:16,599 --> 01:00:19,760
Speaker 15: Wrong kind of like the one time event type of understanding.

1013
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,199
Speaker 2: I think there's that's part of it. But also like

1014
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:25,639
Protestants take the passes where Paul talks about, uh, you know,

1015
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,880
glor glorification, sanctification, and they split these up like they're

1016
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:33,840
rigid things. But that doesn't work because Paul can you

1017
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:39,800
mute is loud. That doesn't work because Paul talks about

1018
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:44,199
glorification happening in this life. So you can't have this

1019
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:53,800
rigid like structure to justification, sanctification, glorification because in which

1020
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:56,199
most of the time Protestants think those are like three

1021
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,920
distinct things, and glorification is thus something in the escton.

1022
01:01:00,719 --> 01:01:03,880
Paul says that Moses experienced glorification when he went up

1023
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,800
on the mountain in sing Corinthians three, So this is

1024
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:10,880
not a rigid, three part tier thing that Paul's writing about.

1025
01:01:11,199 --> 01:01:16,760
So sanctification happens when you first believe. Justification happens as

1026
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,320
you believe. That's why in Romans four Paul doesn't cite

1027
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:23,920
Genesis twelve, which is where Abraham first believed. He cites

1028
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:27,559
Genesis fifteen, meaning that Abram had already been doing three

1029
01:01:27,639 --> 01:01:30,440
chapters worth of good works. If Paul was teaching the

1030
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:34,760
Protestant doctrine of justification. He has to cite Genesis twelve

1031
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:38,360
because that's the first point when Abraham believes and is

1032
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:43,079
quote justified in the Protestant view. But then Paul messed

1033
01:01:43,159 --> 01:01:46,519
up because he didn't cite Genesis twelve. He cites Genesis fifteen,

1034
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,239
where Abram's already been doing three chapters of good works,

1035
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:51,519
already is the friend of God, already is in the Covenant,

1036
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:57,679
et cetera. So justification in Romans four is an example

1037
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,760
of process which is totally contra to all Protestant theology.

1038
01:02:04,239 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 5: Is it too kind of ask more question?

1039
01:02:05,559 --> 01:02:08,840
Speaker 1: Or is it too loud?

1040
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 15: One of the points in my life where is that

1041
01:02:11,559 --> 01:02:15,800
Protestantism was untenable was the the understanding that it's either

1042
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,039
a Nestorianism or you split the Trinity.

1043
01:02:18,239 --> 01:02:20,320
Speaker 5: Right Right at that point I kind of had to

1044
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:20,719
give it up.

1045
01:02:22,639 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 15: What how do you harmonize the passage about it's saying

1046
01:02:25,599 --> 01:02:28,800
like Jesus cursed hung on a tree.

1047
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 5: Right, because my prost and friends, I get.

1048
01:02:30,639 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 2: Exactly if you read, uh, if you read on the

1049
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:37,119
Orthodox Faith by Saint John Damascus. The last four chapters

1050
01:02:37,119 --> 01:02:40,039
at the end of book three discuss what the Orthodox

1051
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,639
conception of Christ's punishment on the cross and death and

1052
01:02:43,679 --> 01:02:47,440
all that what it means in a sense, Yes, he

1053
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:50,880
did accept the punishment of the fall, which was death,

1054
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,360
which is the separation of his soul from his body.

1055
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,400
So the death of the experience is not a spiritual death.

1056
01:02:57,440 --> 01:02:59,519
As if the divine person of the Word, the Son

1057
01:02:59,559 --> 01:03:02,480
of God, could die, he can't spiritually die. He's the

1058
01:03:02,519 --> 01:03:06,119
second person the Trinity. That's impossible. So what happens is

1059
01:03:06,159 --> 01:03:11,360
that he willfully undergoes death, meaning the severance of his

1060
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,079
human soul from his human body, and he descends into

1061
01:03:14,119 --> 01:03:17,000
Hades as the person to that human soul. Going into Hades,

1062
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,880
he thus herrows Hades, destroys power of death, and then

1063
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:23,000
resurrects and heals our body in her nature. So that

1064
01:03:23,159 --> 01:03:26,000
is not the Protestant conception, and hence why the Protestants

1065
01:03:26,039 --> 01:03:28,719
had to reject the descent into Hades and turn it

1066
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:32,159
into in the classical Reformation tradition, Christ being damned on

1067
01:03:32,199 --> 01:03:39,000
the cross, as Lutheran calvin say. And then the I

1068
01:03:39,039 --> 01:03:50,239
just went blank on the other question, the story in

1069
01:03:50,239 --> 01:03:54,239
our arian splitting the Trinity, Oh, what it means to

1070
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:56,440
be a curse? Excuse me? Yeah, if you read John

1071
01:03:56,559 --> 01:03:59,480
of Damascus in those last four chapters. I think it's

1072
01:03:59,519 --> 01:04:03,480
the first the four sections. He says when it says

1073
01:04:03,559 --> 01:04:05,760
Christ became sin or became a curse, it does not

1074
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:08,480
mean he literally ontologically became a curse. It means that

1075
01:04:08,519 --> 01:04:11,440
he became as one if one were cursed, or he

1076
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,800
says by appropriation, meaning perceived as if he was cursed.

1077
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:18,679
He wasn't actually cursed, but men believed he was cursed

1078
01:04:18,719 --> 01:04:21,920
and saw him as that. So it's not possible for

1079
01:04:22,119 --> 01:04:24,719
the Holy Son of God to literally become evil and

1080
01:04:24,719 --> 01:04:27,960
become a curse. There is no such thing as a nature.

1081
01:04:28,039 --> 01:04:31,559
Becoming evil doesn't exist. There are nature doesn't Evil doesn't

1082
01:04:31,559 --> 01:04:36,320
have a nature. It's a privation magma. Okay, so you're

1083
01:04:36,559 --> 01:04:39,039
you're ferociously disagreeing. What's up?

1084
01:04:40,679 --> 01:04:43,480
Speaker 1: Hey? Yeah, thinks? Uh, thanks for this? Can you hear me,

1085
01:04:43,559 --> 01:04:47,239
by the way, I don't think of I can hear Okay? Yeah?

1086
01:04:47,280 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 16: He could you kind of quickly go over the problems.

1087
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 14: With the beatific vision, I don't.

1088
01:04:54,519 --> 01:04:59,519
Speaker 16: I think the Orthodox Church rejects that, right.

1089
01:04:59,559 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 2: So it's based on first of all, it's based on

1090
01:05:03,079 --> 01:05:07,320
a erroneous doctrine of absolute divine simplicity that God is

1091
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:09,559
equivalent to his essence, and that the end of man

1092
01:05:09,679 --> 01:05:12,480
is to stare into the essence of God. We do

1093
01:05:12,559 --> 01:05:14,880
not believe that creatures ever know or see the essence

1094
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:18,039
of God, so it's wrong from that point. It's wrong

1095
01:05:18,119 --> 01:05:20,440
because the beutific vision docrine is part of the doctrine

1096
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:23,840
of created grace that you don't actually experience the reality

1097
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,360
of God's presence in this life, hence created grace in

1098
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:30,880
the Roman Catholic doctrine. And that's another issue, because we

1099
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:33,280
believe that you really do experience the uncreated energies of

1100
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:36,440
God in this life, so glorification is not something that

1101
01:05:36,559 --> 01:05:40,559
is only for the esketon. And then the other problem

1102
01:05:40,639 --> 01:05:44,360
is that the beatific vision doctrine removes the possibility of

1103
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:47,880
free will, because free will is defined and Patristic consensus

1104
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,679
to be the ability to choose between multiple options. If you,

1105
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,239
in the esketon only have the Divine Essence as the

1106
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:57,280
only thing to will, which is what Aquinas for example, says,

1107
01:05:57,480 --> 01:05:59,079
then you no longer have free will because you have

1108
01:05:59,159 --> 01:06:02,280
multiple things to will. That's why the definition of free

1109
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:05,320
will according to the Eastern Church and the Eastern Church

1110
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:08,599
Fathers and the councils is the ability to choose multiple goods.

1111
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:11,159
Hence there are multiple things to will in the escaton.

1112
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:14,800
But the betifvision doctrine is actually neoplatonism because it says

1113
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,480
that the satiation of man's intellect and will has to

1114
01:06:18,519 --> 01:06:21,760
be only willing the One for all eternity. That's the

1115
01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:25,400
neoplatonic doctrine, is not the Orthodox doctrine. You're resurrected into

1116
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:28,000
a body. So how are you only willing the essence

1117
01:06:28,039 --> 01:06:31,280
of God if you're resurrected in a body to do

1118
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:35,079
different things in that body? That makes it impossible to

1119
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:37,960
only will and stare at the essence of God?

1120
01:06:40,079 --> 01:06:40,719
Speaker 1: Right, okay?

1121
01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:41,519
Speaker 4: And so that.

1122
01:06:43,079 --> 01:06:45,519
Speaker 2: Well, well, by the way, it's also premise on the

1123
01:06:45,559 --> 01:06:48,800
idea that man's highest factory is the intellect, and that

1124
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:51,880
man is only satiated by his intellect staring at the

1125
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:55,480
essence of God. That's another point. So there's no doctrine.

1126
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:58,320
Orthodox Church teaches the doctrine of the nouse and that

1127
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:00,199
the intellect is not the highest faculty.

1128
01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:03,280
Speaker 17: In So is that is that kind of like platonic?

1129
01:07:03,679 --> 01:07:06,719
Speaker 2: Absolutely, That's why I said it's a neoplatonic doctrine that

1130
01:07:07,079 --> 01:07:11,800
to be to be Yeah, to be satiated. The will

1131
01:07:12,079 --> 01:07:16,199
and gaze must be only on the one for all eternity,

1132
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:21,199
and to will many would be a defect and would

1133
01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,000
lead to a fall or some sort of willing evil.

1134
01:07:24,559 --> 01:07:26,440
That's pure Platonism neoplanists.

1135
01:07:27,519 --> 01:07:30,119
Speaker 1: Okay, is there anywhere I could kind of read up

1136
01:07:30,119 --> 01:07:31,079
on that? I don't know, if you.

1137
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:34,119
Speaker 2: Have free choice in Saint Maximus includes an entire chapter

1138
01:07:34,320 --> 01:07:37,519
critiquing the division from the everything that you just heard me.

1139
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:41,119
Speaker 17: Spit out, Okay, Yeah, And then I did have another question.

1140
01:07:42,079 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 16: I've heard you kind of critique the penal substitutionary atonement

1141
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,000
at the presence hold two. And I've heard you say

1142
01:07:51,079 --> 01:07:55,400
that there is a sense of punishment, but it's not

1143
01:07:55,679 --> 01:07:58,159
the like the wrath of God.

1144
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's the Son of God, as the church

1145
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:04,639
fathers oftentimes stay, especially if you read John Damascus, he

1146
01:08:04,639 --> 01:08:07,159
states this when he talks about the incarnation. The Son

1147
01:08:07,239 --> 01:08:11,079
of God willingly chose to assume human nature and willingly

1148
01:08:11,199 --> 01:08:14,320
underwent death in that human nature. So it is not

1149
01:08:14,559 --> 01:08:18,319
a father turning his wrath to the second person of

1150
01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:18,800
the Godhead.

1151
01:08:20,039 --> 01:08:24,600
Speaker 14: Okay, but there is like a sense of punishment though, well.

1152
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:26,399
Speaker 2: I mean God did say in the Garden of Eden

1153
01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:28,039
that if you eat of it, you will die, and

1154
01:08:28,079 --> 01:08:30,720
Adam chose to eat of it, and we experience death.

1155
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,640
So death is the punishment, okay, but it is not

1156
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,560
the damnation of the son that is the punishment. But

1157
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:42,039
Protestantism in the PSA doctrine, because of imputation hinges on

1158
01:08:42,159 --> 01:08:45,000
that needing to be the case. If the punishment is damnation,

1159
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:49,680
that's what we're doing, then it stands to reason that

1160
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:51,920
the son has to undergo damnation, and that's actually what

1161
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:53,319
the classical reformers all teach.

1162
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:55,039
Speaker 4: Okay.

1163
01:08:55,119 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 18: So okay, So in what sense does the verse and

1164
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:03,800
I Seaiah apply to Christ when like it says it

1165
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:05,319
it pleased him to crush him?

1166
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:08,600
Speaker 1: Like is that is that looped in with that? Or

1167
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:09,199
is that not?

1168
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:11,359
Speaker 6: Does not know it?

1169
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:15,399
Speaker 2: But again it's still under the condition of the willingness

1170
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,920
of the Sun as the second person of the Godhead

1171
01:09:18,159 --> 01:09:21,000
undergoing willingly that that's why in the so like in

1172
01:09:21,039 --> 01:09:24,680
the Garden, when Jesus in the Garden of gethsimone. This

1173
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:27,560
actually ends up being a big debate and a disputed

1174
01:09:28,239 --> 01:09:31,680
text at the six Ecumenical Council and the book that

1175
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:34,760
you want to read on this is disputation with Paris

1176
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:38,159
by Saint Maximus. So essentially the whole debate ends up

1177
01:09:38,359 --> 01:09:44,159
hinging on let this cut pass for me. And what

1178
01:09:44,800 --> 01:09:50,520
the resolution is is that even though Christ in his

1179
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:54,760
human nature does not want to die, the death is

1180
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:57,239
the punishment. The death is the thing that he chooses

1181
01:09:57,359 --> 01:10:04,239
willingly to accept from the Father. And that death, though is,

1182
01:10:04,239 --> 01:10:06,439
is the severance of his soul from his body. It

1183
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:13,079
is not a divine spiritual like Jesus didn't spiritually.

1184
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:16,520
Speaker 1: Die, right, Okay, all right.

1185
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:19,359
Speaker 2: He underwent death in the human nature that he assumed,

1186
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:22,399
and that's the punishment, and that's what he willfully accepts

1187
01:10:22,399 --> 01:10:24,720
in the garden when he says, let this cut pass

1188
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:26,479
from me. However, not mine will be done, but that

1189
01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:30,600
will be done. And Maximus Maximus says, that's Jesus submitting

1190
01:10:31,399 --> 01:10:34,600
his human nature, which does not will to die, to

1191
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:36,760
the will of the Father into the divine will.

1192
01:10:38,319 --> 01:10:40,199
Speaker 1: Okay, all right?

1193
01:10:40,239 --> 01:10:43,159
Speaker 16: And then what about if I could ask one more question,

1194
01:10:43,199 --> 01:10:45,720
what about predestination and election?

1195
01:10:46,079 --> 01:10:47,800
Speaker 1: How is that applied.

1196
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:51,640
Speaker 2: Biblically and the Orthodox Church it's seen through the lens

1197
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:54,359
of Christology. And so if you read Ephesians, or if

1198
01:10:54,399 --> 01:10:58,119
you're reading these passages, you'll notice that those are letters

1199
01:10:58,119 --> 01:11:01,720
written to visible churches, the of Ephesus. It's not a

1200
01:11:01,800 --> 01:11:04,760
letter written to the elect only. And so when Paul

1201
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,079
writes to the Church of Ephesus, he's calling that whole

1202
01:11:07,159 --> 01:11:12,039
visible baptized community, the predestined and the elect. So I mean, yes,

1203
01:11:12,119 --> 01:11:15,840
God knows in his foreknowledge on who all the final

1204
01:11:16,319 --> 01:11:19,199
perseverers are, but we don't know that. We don't have

1205
01:11:19,239 --> 01:11:21,800
that knowledge, so we do not believe that there is

1206
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:26,960
this sort of divine causality which overrides free will to

1207
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:31,000
you know, DestinE certain people for damnation and certain people

1208
01:11:31,039 --> 01:11:38,159
for salvation. Yeah, but ultimately, when you get orthodox Christology,

1209
01:11:39,239 --> 01:11:43,239
the synergism that occurs with the human nature and Christ

1210
01:11:43,319 --> 01:11:48,000
synergizing with the divinity, that becomes the paradigm for human

1211
01:11:48,119 --> 01:11:51,159
will synergizing with the divine will in sooteriology. And so

1212
01:11:51,199 --> 01:11:55,760
there's never a God's the divine will and the divine

1213
01:11:55,840 --> 01:12:00,119
energy never supplants or replaces the human will and energy.

1214
01:12:00,279 --> 01:12:06,359
That's never possible. Hello listener, and then we'll go to

1215
01:12:06,399 --> 01:12:12,319
the next people raising their hands, people in the chat,

1216
01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:14,479
go ahead, can.

1217
01:12:14,319 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 1: You hear me?

1218
01:12:16,239 --> 01:12:16,439
Speaker 15: Hey?

1219
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,199
Speaker 1: Jay, is it midnight there?

1220
01:12:19,359 --> 01:12:19,920
Speaker 2: Almost?

1221
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:24,000
Speaker 19: Okay, I was gonna say, Merry Christmas. It's eight o'clock.

1222
01:12:25,119 --> 01:12:28,600
Speaker 2: It is right, my clock is off, good.

1223
01:12:29,039 --> 01:12:29,920
Speaker 1: And Christ is born.

1224
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:36,640
Speaker 19: I just had two simple questions, Uh, I were you

1225
01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:43,239
were talking about some heretical icons from Patriot Prime recently,

1226
01:12:43,399 --> 01:12:47,239
and I posted something in there of an icon that's

1227
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,720
pretty popular in Alaska is called the sick Icon of

1228
01:12:50,760 --> 01:12:51,560
the Mother of God.

1229
01:12:52,399 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 1: And I posted in the comments here, and.

1230
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:55,560
Speaker 19: I was just wondering your thoughts about it because it

1231
01:12:55,560 --> 01:12:58,880
looks like there's an image of the Father God of

1232
01:12:59,199 --> 01:13:00,840
Father God at the top of the icon.

1233
01:13:03,079 --> 01:13:09,279
Speaker 2: Let me go to the comments. Let's see if he's

1234
01:13:09,039 --> 01:13:12,119
if he's pictured as Ancient of Days, that's typically the

1235
01:13:12,119 --> 01:13:30,600
one that's tolerated. Let me see if I can find it. Okay,

1236
01:13:30,640 --> 01:13:37,319
I see, Yeah, I think that the the the image

1237
01:13:37,319 --> 01:13:41,880
of Ancient of Days is the one allowance for imaging

1238
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:44,319
the Father. So I'm assuming that's supposed to be the

1239
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:45,319
Ancient of Days.

1240
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:49,359
Speaker 19: Oh okay, Yeah, I wasn't sure. I guess it wasn't

1241
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:56,560
obvious to me. That's pretty much my only question for

1242
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:57,079
a question.

1243
01:13:58,399 --> 01:13:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think there are you know, there are

1244
01:14:00,039 --> 01:14:06,079
are examples where this is violated, but it's typically it's

1245
01:14:06,079 --> 01:14:12,319
still tolerated. So who was raising their hand? I already

1246
01:14:12,319 --> 01:14:13,119
forgot who that was.

1247
01:14:14,399 --> 01:14:14,680
Speaker 1: Matt.

1248
01:14:15,119 --> 01:14:17,960
Speaker 2: We're looking for people who disagree, so remember it's it's disagrees.

1249
01:14:18,039 --> 01:14:24,319
Go ahead, and Matt, hello.

1250
01:14:25,359 --> 01:14:25,720
Speaker 1: You hear me?

1251
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:28,920
Speaker 4: Okay?

1252
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:32,199
Speaker 6: So I came in here a couple of months.

1253
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:35,399
Speaker 20: Ago talking to you about my atheist cousin. I was

1254
01:14:35,439 --> 01:14:39,880
struggling arguing against Can I ask a few questions relating

1255
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:44,760
to arguing against an atheist?

1256
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:46,079
Speaker 1: Okay?

1257
01:14:46,279 --> 01:14:51,640
Speaker 20: So his worldview is very super complex and super kind

1258
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:56,479
of insane. He kind of views how we view the

1259
01:14:56,600 --> 01:14:59,479
problem of man to be sin. He views it to

1260
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:03,880
be race and a specific race of people that you know,

1261
01:15:03,920 --> 01:15:04,880
I can't really say.

1262
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:06,520
Speaker 2: Well, I'm on YouTube, so.

1263
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:08,439
Speaker 20: Well, no, I'm not going to say, of course, I'm

1264
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:10,920
not gonna say.

1265
01:15:09,039 --> 01:15:15,880
Speaker 2: This on YouTube, man, So remember to keep your questions

1266
01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:19,960
YouTube friendly. That's want to lose my channel on this tonight.

1267
01:15:21,239 --> 01:15:25,239
Let's keep the topic to Catholic, Muslim, Protestant, libertarian, NaSTA

1268
01:15:25,279 --> 01:15:27,920
Hebrew roots. I actually I'm not mad at that guy,

1269
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:30,479
but I didn't include atheism tonight. I wasn't in the

1270
01:15:30,520 --> 01:15:33,920
mood to do the atheist stuff, So let's keep it

1271
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:35,319
to the topics listed. What's up?

1272
01:15:35,319 --> 01:15:35,520
Speaker 1: Man?

1273
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:46,960
Speaker 2: Go ahead? Are you there? You've been raising? Yeah, you're up, dude,

1274
01:15:54,880 --> 01:16:00,000
Go ahead, glop yep.

1275
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:03,119
Speaker 11: Uh.

1276
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:15,359
Speaker 21: I want to continue on justification, specifically from a Protestant perspective, So.

1277
01:16:16,840 --> 01:16:18,000
Speaker 1: How he said?

1278
01:16:18,119 --> 01:16:21,399
Speaker 21: So, just so I'm not misrepresenting you, it's you guys.

1279
01:16:21,399 --> 01:16:28,039
Don't believe you merit your justification correct through your works.

1280
01:16:28,079 --> 01:16:32,840
Speaker 2: Nobody deserves any grace or natural gifts from God, so

1281
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:35,119
there are there is never any merits. But that does

1282
01:16:35,159 --> 01:16:39,840
not mean that there are not required works, because Jesus says,

1283
01:16:40,239 --> 01:16:43,199
if you love me, you'll keep my commandments, and Paul says,

1284
01:16:43,199 --> 01:16:44,920
the only faith that counts as the one that works

1285
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:45,359
through love.

1286
01:16:48,119 --> 01:16:50,760
Speaker 21: Sure, So I mean, wouldn't that pretty much be the

1287
01:16:50,800 --> 01:16:54,119
same as what most Protestants would say, though, because they.

1288
01:16:55,479 --> 01:16:57,439
Speaker 1: Works are also an outworking from faith.

1289
01:16:57,600 --> 01:17:01,960
Speaker 2: No Protestants believe that the doctrine of solo fide is

1290
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:05,520
an imputational righteous that you are given righteousness that you're

1291
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:08,920
given on the basis of Christ's penal substitutionary toonement, that

1292
01:17:09,079 --> 01:17:12,520
is accredited to your fictional bank account and has nothing

1293
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:16,840
to do with your actual moral standing or transformational repentance,

1294
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:17,880
and we do not believe that.

1295
01:17:19,880 --> 01:17:21,359
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, So.

1296
01:17:21,359 --> 01:17:24,119
Speaker 21: Would you say solo fide is kind of would you say.

1297
01:17:23,960 --> 01:17:27,199
Speaker 1: It's monogists in a way where there's no action.

1298
01:17:27,039 --> 01:17:32,920
Speaker 2: Of Him, I mean Calvinists, And maybe Luther would make

1299
01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:38,479
solo fide necessarily perhaps monogist, But there are many people

1300
01:17:38,479 --> 01:17:41,399
who believe in solo fide who are not monoargists. So

1301
01:17:41,880 --> 01:17:46,279
it's not necessarily connected to monogism.

1302
01:17:46,760 --> 01:17:50,680
Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay, that's all I have with thank you.

1303
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:53,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jesus says this is the work of God that

1304
01:17:53,279 --> 01:17:55,880
you believe on him whom he has sent. So even

1305
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:59,720
according to Christ, faith is a work which is always

1306
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:12,479
a challenge for a Protestant. Go ahead, Xenodrome Aiden Nelson,

1307
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:14,680
nineteen five dollars. What do you think about Western right

1308
01:18:14,760 --> 01:18:18,520
Orthodox churches? There's nothing really problematic with the right itself.

1309
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:22,680
The problem is that, particularly amongst some sectors of the

1310
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:26,319
Western right, it becomes a haven for people who convert

1311
01:18:26,359 --> 01:18:29,880
out of Roman Catholicism or Protestants who want to rehabilitate

1312
01:18:30,439 --> 01:18:34,520
many Latin theological errors and oddities, and so it becomes

1313
01:18:34,560 --> 01:18:38,079
this weird hive of weirdos that think it's their job

1314
01:18:38,159 --> 01:18:43,039
to convince everybody of original guilt or some such nonsense.

1315
01:18:43,159 --> 01:18:46,720
And so that's the main problem, nothing to do with

1316
01:18:46,760 --> 01:18:50,359
the right itself. Ms Rachel five dollars, thank you so much,

1317
01:18:50,479 --> 01:18:52,880
day Ji one dollar. I recently bought a few books

1318
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:57,439
you mentioned. I tried searching your take on one your

1319
01:18:57,479 --> 01:19:01,159
YouTube channel with no luck. I have thousands of books.

1320
01:19:01,239 --> 01:19:03,479
I've mentioned thousands of books over the years, so I

1321
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:09,760
have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry, Do you

1322
01:19:09,840 --> 01:19:12,520
have on your website, Electra every book that you've mentioned? No,

1323
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:17,000
I mean, I don't know, man, I only have limited time.

1324
01:19:17,119 --> 01:19:18,960
Not trying to be rude to you. I appreciate your day jire,

1325
01:19:19,039 --> 01:19:22,359
but I have no idea. So just specify what the

1326
01:19:22,399 --> 01:19:26,119
book is and maybe I could give you a better response.

1327
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:29,079
Anonymous five dollars channel, see you talk much about the

1328
01:19:29,119 --> 01:19:31,239
Anglican Church. We just had a debate with an Anglican

1329
01:19:31,840 --> 01:19:35,279
two weeks ago, so it's on my channel and we

1330
01:19:35,319 --> 01:19:38,800
went into the stupidity of branch theory and he had

1331
01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:42,800
a meltdown. So Jordan ten dollars never let that Lutheran

1332
01:19:42,840 --> 01:19:48,279
bozo on again. Hey, I think by God's grace, not

1333
01:19:48,399 --> 01:19:51,039
by my own merits. I was able to be patient.

1334
01:19:51,239 --> 01:19:57,199
So the year of love hopefully is charging forward with

1335
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:01,640
some success. No more, mister nice j two dollars twenty

1336
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:03,800
two cents. Here's a mini paypiggy. Thank you so much.

1337
01:20:04,119 --> 01:20:06,279
We love you over here because this is a channel

1338
01:20:06,279 --> 01:20:10,000
of love. Now backseat, sauceman. Ten dollars. I've been going

1339
01:20:10,039 --> 01:20:13,119
to Orthodox Church for like forty eight years, but I've

1340
01:20:13,159 --> 01:20:15,079
never heard of the Trinity dog. Can you help me out?

1341
01:20:15,119 --> 01:20:19,479
I got some FAQ's dog. Thank you. That's a funny one.

1342
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:22,319
I think that's from earlier tonight to Nubble at five

1343
01:20:22,359 --> 01:20:26,000
dollars Jay the next hour. Protestant presidence says scripture is clear.

1344
01:20:26,640 --> 01:20:29,359
They don't need any church fathers for interpreting or any guidance.

1345
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:32,720
Ask them why they believe the euchars is only symbolic

1346
01:20:33,239 --> 01:20:37,560
when Orthodoxy believes it is more. Yeah, I just I

1347
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:39,760
think they're going to say that we're just wrong and so.

1348
01:20:40,520 --> 01:20:45,960
But the point still stands that I think they're overly

1349
01:20:46,279 --> 01:20:51,560
simplistic when they think that the scriptures are just clear. Well,

1350
01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:53,720
the scriptures are just clear, then why do we have

1351
01:20:54,439 --> 01:20:58,600
centuries of people trying to debate and explain the Trinity. No,

1352
01:20:58,640 --> 01:21:01,600
the scriptures are clear in some places. I mean, the

1353
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:05,439
Ten Commandments is pretty clear about good and bad, but

1354
01:21:06,479 --> 01:21:11,239
other things are not clear. So it's not always clear

1355
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:14,359
which ones are clear and not clear. And that's why

1356
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:17,000
the Bible doesn't make you know stupid statements like the

1357
01:21:17,079 --> 01:21:20,640
Koran that everything is clear, which the Koran says many times.

1358
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:22,680
DC will working three dollars, I think is a much

1359
01:21:23,159 --> 01:21:29,239
c cutch one two three five dollars. I think your

1360
01:21:29,319 --> 01:21:33,199
clip channels are helping the growth. I hope so. I don't.

1361
01:21:33,399 --> 01:21:35,680
I have one clip channel, which is jayder Life Streams,

1362
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:40,039
and as certainties, I don't run or control any of

1363
01:21:40,079 --> 01:21:43,560
the other channels. Kyle runs dire Clips, which is fine

1364
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:47,119
with me. And I've told you guys, anybody wants to

1365
01:21:47,119 --> 01:21:49,119
clip my stuff and do clip channels, go for it.

1366
01:21:49,119 --> 01:21:51,319
I don't care. I just asked that if you would

1367
01:21:51,600 --> 01:21:53,840
link back to my channel, that's it. Go for it.

1368
01:21:54,880 --> 01:21:57,600
Other YouTubers have many, many clips channels. We should all

1369
01:21:57,600 --> 01:22:00,359
be clipping and sharing the moments in your life streams

1370
01:22:00,359 --> 01:22:02,239
that inspire us. Hey, go for it. I hope you

1371
01:22:02,279 --> 01:22:02,600
guys do.

1372
01:22:02,720 --> 01:22:03,079
Speaker 1: Please do.

1373
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:07,319
Speaker 2: I'm honored when people do clips of my stuff, Dragon Origin,

1374
01:22:08,880 --> 01:22:12,600
Dragon Age origins three dollars. Is there any chance of

1375
01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:17,399
you debating Alex O'Connor. I've asked many times, tweeted at him,

1376
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:22,159
goes ignored. I mean people, you know you guys always

1377
01:22:22,199 --> 01:22:24,239
ask not I'm not fussing at you, but people are

1378
01:22:24,239 --> 01:22:26,439
always asking me. It's almost every day when you're gonna

1379
01:22:26,479 --> 01:22:30,680
debate this person. Look almost everybody that you ask I've tried,

1380
01:22:31,640 --> 01:22:37,159
and everybody has an excuse. So O'Connor's arguments are weak.

1381
01:22:37,199 --> 01:22:41,720
They need to be dealt with. I agree, but don't

1382
01:22:41,720 --> 01:22:43,960
hold your breath London five dollars. What do you think

1383
01:22:44,000 --> 01:22:47,279
about the street preaching movement online?

1384
01:22:48,079 --> 01:22:48,399
Speaker 1: I don't.

1385
01:22:49,039 --> 01:22:52,600
Speaker 2: I think street preaching is kind of stupid. Nobody really

1386
01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:57,000
finds this convincing. I mean maybe somebody here's a street preacher.

1387
01:22:57,079 --> 01:23:00,840
I just think it looks stupid. It comes off as crazy.

1388
01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:06,840
And in the Orthodox Church, you don't preach without being commissioned.

1389
01:23:07,279 --> 01:23:09,720
As Paul says in Hebrews, no man takes this honor

1390
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:13,039
onto himself. That's why we always tell people not to

1391
01:23:13,119 --> 01:23:16,079
listen to randos on Twitter who have no blessing and

1392
01:23:16,159 --> 01:23:20,039
no commission and authority is not something that you take

1393
01:23:20,119 --> 01:23:28,119
upon yourself. It's given to you. So I mean, I

1394
01:23:28,239 --> 01:23:32,359
understand they probably have good motivations to go and protest

1395
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:36,479
and preach at the parades or whatever. And you go

1396
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:40,680
on to say, although these people preach at LGBT parades,

1397
01:23:40,760 --> 01:23:43,600
they reject the church. Yeah, we would say these people

1398
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:49,079
are in delusion. But thank you for that, JCBO nine

1399
01:23:49,159 --> 01:23:52,600
five dollars. Did you ever play Metal Gear Solid? The

1400
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:56,199
third game has cold war sci fi geopolitical storylines. I

1401
01:23:56,279 --> 01:23:58,680
played the first one for a little bit and then

1402
01:24:00,239 --> 01:24:02,319
was busy doing other stuff, so I never got back

1403
01:24:02,359 --> 01:24:04,960
to it. But I do remember that being like transhumanist

1404
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:07,279
stuff in the first Metal Gear Solid. But I did

1405
01:24:07,279 --> 01:24:10,560
not get to the third one. But what was it

1406
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:13,720
Black Ops that came out a couple of years ago?

1407
01:24:13,800 --> 01:24:15,600
Remember that one was all Cold War themed and that

1408
01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:19,439
was full of like MK Ultra Cia Assassin cold war stuff.

1409
01:24:19,479 --> 01:24:21,640
That was pretty fun. Actually, I actually enjoyed the campaign

1410
01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:26,439
part of that Black Ops Cold War That was fun.

1411
01:24:27,319 --> 01:24:32,560
PGA Lifestyle one dollar. What are the best resources? In

1412
01:24:32,600 --> 01:24:36,319
addition to the Orthodox study, abot about Messianic prophecies being fulfilled,

1413
01:24:37,319 --> 01:24:45,439
go watch my talks where I cover this Zeno drone,

1414
01:24:49,039 --> 01:24:51,600
you know, I mean, I.

1415
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:52,800
Speaker 1: Didn't want to interrupt in its far.

1416
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:57,279
Speaker 22: So I had a question regarding the Book of Daniel

1417
01:24:57,399 --> 01:25:01,000
and the prophecy and King Darius is a kind of

1418
01:25:01,039 --> 01:25:03,800
concerning I just wanted an Orthodox perspective on this.

1419
01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:14,520
Speaker 2: Well, well, you muse like I'm echoing broken. Sorry, no,

1420
01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:16,439
I mean you you're I mean you're you're.

1421
01:25:17,159 --> 01:25:20,279
Speaker 22: Oh no, I'm sorry, I'm using headphones and it's it's

1422
01:25:20,399 --> 01:25:20,920
I'm sorry.

1423
01:25:21,239 --> 01:25:21,760
Speaker 1: Here with me.

1424
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:28,119
Speaker 22: In Daniel Chapter five, Daniel tells King Belshazzar that his

1425
01:25:28,199 --> 01:25:30,279
kingdom was basically going to come to an end, you know,

1426
01:25:30,359 --> 01:25:33,840
the number of measure divided, all that stuff. And in

1427
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:39,199
that very same night King Garius, Babylonian King Darius, came and.

1428
01:25:39,279 --> 01:25:41,119
Speaker 6: His reign pretty much ended that night.

1429
01:25:42,159 --> 01:25:47,000
Speaker 22: However, historical accounts suggest that King Garius is conquering the

1430
01:25:47,000 --> 01:25:49,800
babylon couldn't have happened the.

1431
01:25:49,760 --> 01:25:51,560
Speaker 5: Way the Book of Daniel suggests.

1432
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:54,640
Speaker 22: And I was just very I'm just wondering, what, what's

1433
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:55,720
your perspective on that?

1434
01:25:55,800 --> 01:26:00,560
Speaker 2: As a as an Orthodox, I would never take why

1435
01:26:00,640 --> 01:26:07,920
can you not? I would never take the so called

1436
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:13,479
authority of secular historians over divine relation. Meg, What's up.

1437
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:23,279
Speaker 14: Hello, Hey, I got a question following up about the

1438
01:26:23,319 --> 01:26:31,159
post resurrection escaton specific to the state of the wicked

1439
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:34,800
or those who have fully rejected Jesus in this life.

1440
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:40,880
So my understanding of your view is like everyone is

1441
01:26:41,039 --> 01:26:50,640
universally like Jesus, universally recapitulated human nature. So everybody gets resurrected, immortal, imperishable,

1442
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:59,000
and corruptible. So do the wicked experience physical pain or

1443
01:26:59,039 --> 01:27:04,000
decay if they're resurrected in a body like that of Jesus.

1444
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:08,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, what we believe is that the experience that they

1445
01:27:08,680 --> 01:27:12,199
have is a bad experience. So even though they're resurrected

1446
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:17,520
the presence of God, which is a good presence, because

1447
01:27:17,560 --> 01:27:20,439
they're evil, it torments them. So that is what the

1448
01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:23,159
river of life or river of fire is, is that

1449
01:27:23,199 --> 01:27:25,119
the river of life is the river of fire to

1450
01:27:25,159 --> 01:27:28,720
the wicked because they have rejected God and become his

1451
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:31,039
enemy and they hate him from all eternity. So they

1452
01:27:31,079 --> 01:27:35,359
have a what Maximus calls a ever ill being, whereas

1453
01:27:35,359 --> 01:27:38,079
the righteous, because they participated in divine life, have ever

1454
01:27:38,239 --> 01:27:38,760
well being.

1455
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:45,439
Speaker 14: Okay, is that just experienced in like a spiritual sense

1456
01:27:45,600 --> 01:27:46,720
or or in.

1457
01:27:46,640 --> 01:27:50,920
Speaker 2: Them I would imagine that the body which they misused

1458
01:27:51,039 --> 01:27:56,920
and mistreated also becomes a source of disease and displeasure

1459
01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:57,359
for them.

1460
01:27:58,800 --> 01:28:02,439
Speaker 14: Okay, So then you would say it is different than

1461
01:28:03,800 --> 01:28:06,800
the resurrected actual like.

1462
01:28:07,479 --> 01:28:14,199
Speaker 2: Physical well angels. For example, angels never lost their angelic nature,

1463
01:28:14,760 --> 01:28:18,960
but they will experience an angelic form of torture and

1464
01:28:19,079 --> 01:28:23,680
torment for an eternal angel nature. So the natures don't

1465
01:28:23,680 --> 01:28:28,439
have to change, just like you know, human nature. We

1466
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:31,319
have the same nature that Adam had and that Jesus has,

1467
01:28:31,920 --> 01:28:36,359
but this body can experience pain and can experience disease

1468
01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:38,960
in this life. And so the only difference is that

1469
01:28:39,000 --> 01:28:43,840
in the escaton all people get ever being, but not

1470
01:28:43,960 --> 01:28:49,399
everybody gets ever well being, only the righteous do. Okay,

1471
01:28:49,840 --> 01:28:53,479
So it is like Jesus's body in some respects, but

1472
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:55,640
unlike Jesus's body in other respects.

1473
01:28:56,800 --> 01:28:59,319
Speaker 14: And then I would assume you would not say that

1474
01:28:59,359 --> 01:29:03,920
they are in like they're able to experience. They're probably

1475
01:29:03,920 --> 01:29:08,800
going to be like sad and experiencing negative emotions on

1476
01:29:08,840 --> 01:29:11,279
a soul level endlessly.

1477
01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:14,039
Speaker 2: I mean, Jesus seems to describe it that way. So

1478
01:29:14,239 --> 01:29:19,279
I don't know that impassibility would be I don't even

1479
01:29:19,319 --> 01:29:24,399
know that the human that our bodies necessarily become impassable.

1480
01:29:24,920 --> 01:29:27,119
Speaker 14: That's just the divine nature.

1481
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:32,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we're resurrected in bodies. We're resurrected in bodies,

1482
01:29:32,079 --> 01:29:34,199
and we walk around and do stuff in the escaton.

1483
01:29:34,520 --> 01:29:39,039
So that to me suggests that it's in some way changeable.

1484
01:29:39,119 --> 01:29:40,800
It changes positions and location.

1485
01:29:42,680 --> 01:29:47,600
Speaker 14: Okay, And then, like onto, since having a will and

1486
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:51,880
a free will as part of our nature, what about

1487
01:29:52,039 --> 01:29:56,159
like the wicked, do they will multiple evils or are

1488
01:29:56,199 --> 01:29:58,920
they only able to will multiple goods?

1489
01:29:58,920 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 4: But they just know?

1490
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:02,600
Speaker 14: I think they don't want to cooperate with it.

1491
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:07,279
Speaker 2: I think I think, like the evil angels, they have

1492
01:30:08,479 --> 01:30:13,520
fixed their will upon continually willing evil, so there's no

1493
01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:17,359
possibility of willing the good. So I don't know how.

1494
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:20,840
I don't know whether they will multiple evils or not,

1495
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:24,439
but probably, like the angels, their wills are fixed on

1496
01:30:25,359 --> 01:30:26,520
consistently willing evil.

1497
01:30:28,079 --> 01:30:32,239
Speaker 14: Okay, So then is there's still deception left in their

1498
01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:34,079
mind or soul?

1499
01:30:35,920 --> 01:30:37,399
Speaker 2: What do you mean deception left in it?

1500
01:30:37,439 --> 01:30:37,840
Speaker 1: What do you mean?

1501
01:30:39,479 --> 01:30:45,880
Speaker 14: I don't know, Like I guess, I think of evil

1502
01:30:46,479 --> 01:30:51,199
and deception as something that doesn't really have a substance

1503
01:30:51,359 --> 01:30:51,960
or a work.

1504
01:30:52,079 --> 01:30:52,520
Speaker 2: I agree.

1505
01:30:52,640 --> 01:30:55,560
Speaker 14: So in the Escaton, it's hard for me to understand

1506
01:30:56,119 --> 01:30:59,680
how people are still willing evil if God is all

1507
01:30:59,720 --> 01:31:04,199
in all, like, where is the evil.

1508
01:31:04,319 --> 01:31:05,680
Speaker 2: In the same way that the.

1509
01:31:05,640 --> 01:31:09,720
Speaker 14: Full presence of God? How can they still remain deceived?

1510
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:14,119
And how can they still be willing evil things?

1511
01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:20,119
Speaker 2: Because they chose to fix their will in a state

1512
01:31:20,279 --> 01:31:26,520
of rejection of God, and so God's presence to them

1513
01:31:27,000 --> 01:31:30,439
is a torment and not something that they can ever

1514
01:31:31,399 --> 01:31:38,439
choose virtue again from. So in other words, the mode

1515
01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:43,399
of willing, which was, which is personal, is what determines

1516
01:31:43,439 --> 01:31:46,000
the experience of the Askeaton, and that's dependent upon whether

1517
01:31:46,079 --> 01:31:49,680
you recapitulated the virtue, as Maximus says, or whether you

1518
01:31:49,800 --> 01:31:52,720
chose vice and thus became an enemy of God and

1519
01:31:52,760 --> 01:31:55,439
hated God. So if you chose to be an enemy

1520
01:31:55,479 --> 01:31:58,760
and hated God, then you chose that as your fixed state.

1521
01:31:59,479 --> 01:32:06,960
Speaker 14: So yeah, I understand his view and yours. It just

1522
01:32:07,119 --> 01:32:10,520
it's hard for me to understand how God can be

1523
01:32:10,600 --> 01:32:15,039
all in all if those people are just fixed in evil.

1524
01:32:15,199 --> 01:32:17,159
But but I appreciate.

1525
01:32:16,680 --> 01:32:20,840
Speaker 2: Your well, So the evil is not a thing that

1526
01:32:20,880 --> 01:32:23,359
you get fixed in because their natures are still good

1527
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:29,479
but they are perpetually willing, like the fallen angels against

1528
01:32:29,560 --> 01:32:29,920
the good.

1529
01:32:31,439 --> 01:32:36,680
Speaker 14: So yeah, okay, and then my last question is.

1530
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:38,880
Speaker 2: Are you are you a universalist? Is what you're getting at?

1531
01:32:39,399 --> 01:32:40,079
Speaker 14: No, I'm not.

1532
01:32:41,640 --> 01:32:42,359
Speaker 2: What's your position?

1533
01:32:44,119 --> 01:32:47,680
Speaker 14: I believe, as Irenaeus believed, that the wages of sin

1534
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:53,359
is death, and so the wicked will not be raised immortal,

1535
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:57,000
and they will undergo a second death. And it's only

1536
01:32:57,039 --> 01:33:01,319
those who are baptized into Christ who will be raised

1537
01:33:01,359 --> 01:33:02,960
and perishable and immortal.

1538
01:33:05,039 --> 01:33:06,840
Speaker 2: So you don't believe in a general resurrection.

1539
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:11,880
Speaker 14: I believe that though there's a resurrection of the just

1540
01:33:12,079 --> 01:33:16,399
and the unjust, and everyone will stand before God. But

1541
01:33:17,680 --> 01:33:22,800
what's believed like the unjust are resurrected into the same

1542
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:26,159
type of body that they lived in this life. And

1543
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:29,119
but but he believes go a second death.

1544
01:33:29,159 --> 01:33:32,960
Speaker 2: But he believes, but he believes in recapitulation. So what's

1545
01:33:33,000 --> 01:33:35,319
the basis for resurrection.

1546
01:33:36,079 --> 01:33:37,159
Speaker 14: Being in Christ?

1547
01:33:37,880 --> 01:33:42,000
Speaker 2: So how are the resurrected at?

1548
01:33:42,760 --> 01:33:45,840
Speaker 14: Is for those who are in Christ so receive a

1549
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:47,000
heavenly defined.

1550
01:33:46,920 --> 01:33:49,199
Speaker 2: So Christ didn't assume universal human nature.

1551
01:33:52,039 --> 01:33:56,640
Speaker 14: Christ has a universal selvaffic will and his.

1552
01:33:56,720 --> 01:34:00,600
Speaker 2: What did he assume in the incarnation so he didn't

1553
01:34:00,600 --> 01:34:02,079
assume the whole of Adam's nature.

1554
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:08,399
Speaker 14: He did, and so like the invitation is open for

1555
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:09,479
everything one.

1556
01:34:09,439 --> 01:34:14,439
Speaker 2: I'm talking about ontologically in him ontologically did he assume

1557
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:17,079
universal human nature? Because you just said that they're wicked

1558
01:34:17,079 --> 01:34:22,000
are resurrected on what basis?

1559
01:34:23,239 --> 01:34:29,000
Speaker 14: I guess because they like need to be judged.

1560
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:32,439
Speaker 2: Okay, But Paul says there's no basis for being resurrected

1561
01:34:32,439 --> 01:34:33,560
other than in Christ.

1562
01:34:36,560 --> 01:34:36,960
Speaker 14: Okay.

1563
01:34:37,079 --> 01:34:40,079
Speaker 2: So in First in First pridy Is fifteen, when Paul

1564
01:34:40,119 --> 01:34:44,600
talks about the extent of Christ's healing of our nature,

1565
01:34:45,239 --> 01:34:51,000
it's as cosmic and universal as the extent of Adam's sin.

1566
01:34:51,159 --> 01:34:54,520
And that's why Jesus is able to rescue people in

1567
01:34:54,600 --> 01:34:59,880
every state of life, including infants. Yeah, that means all

1568
01:35:00,079 --> 01:35:02,399
wicked are only resurrected on the basis of Christ.

1569
01:35:04,840 --> 01:35:07,640
Speaker 14: Yeah, But he also talks about like this is applying

1570
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:10,600
for people who are in Christ, like this type of

1571
01:35:10,640 --> 01:35:13,399
resurrection they receive.

1572
01:35:13,479 --> 01:35:15,600
Speaker 6: So you're saying first favenly nature like his.

1573
01:35:16,079 --> 01:35:18,920
Speaker 2: So you're saying First grand Is fifteen does not extend

1574
01:35:18,960 --> 01:35:21,199
the scope as wide as Adam's sin.

1575
01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:27,239
Speaker 14: I believe it extends a scope as wide, but not

1576
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:30,319
everybody accepts the salvation of Christ.

1577
01:35:30,840 --> 01:35:33,359
Speaker 2: I agree with that, but the only way to be

1578
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:37,359
resurrected is through Jesus destroying death, because it's our nature.

1579
01:35:37,399 --> 01:35:39,079
Do you don't think nature is a universal?

1580
01:35:41,279 --> 01:35:43,960
Speaker 14: I do think it's a universal, But I don't think

1581
01:35:44,000 --> 01:35:48,520
that we're like inherently immortal.

1582
01:35:48,439 --> 01:35:50,560
Speaker 2: Or I don't believe we are that.

1583
01:35:50,640 --> 01:35:53,079
Speaker 14: Everyone who rejects Christ.

1584
01:35:52,800 --> 01:35:56,079
Speaker 2: Fully, well, you just admitted.

1585
01:35:55,640 --> 01:35:59,880
Speaker 14: My life and be immortal forever. You just admitted my

1586
01:36:00,039 --> 01:36:01,920
emotional upon being in Christ.

1587
01:36:03,520 --> 01:36:07,000
Speaker 2: You just admitted my point that if Christ assumed human nature,

1588
01:36:07,039 --> 01:36:09,840
and if human nature is universal, then he resurrects all

1589
01:36:09,920 --> 01:36:13,359
human beings on that basis. That's what Urinaeas says. Recapitulation

1590
01:36:13,520 --> 01:36:14,760
is okay.

1591
01:36:16,720 --> 01:36:21,560
Speaker 14: I mean, like, I agree that everybody gets resurrected.

1592
01:36:21,239 --> 01:36:22,720
Speaker 2: And on what basis?

1593
01:36:22,760 --> 01:36:25,920
Speaker 14: Anyone who gets resurrected has to be on the basis

1594
01:36:26,159 --> 01:36:29,600
of God's power, because in Him we live and move

1595
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:30,439
and have our beings.

1596
01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:32,760
Speaker 2: Where in the New Testament is there any idle.

1597
01:36:32,720 --> 01:36:36,920
Speaker 14: To continue on for an entire eternity? I don't think is.

1598
01:36:37,279 --> 01:36:41,600
Speaker 2: So are you aware of those who reject? Does Maximus teach?

1599
01:36:42,279 --> 01:36:44,760
So you don't believe the Orthodox position that Maximus lays out,

1600
01:36:47,600 --> 01:36:48,840
are you orthodox.

1601
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:50,359
Speaker 14: Or I'm not I'm Protestant.

1602
01:36:50,439 --> 01:36:52,760
Speaker 2: Okay, well, there we go. Finally, that's all. You should

1603
01:36:52,800 --> 01:36:55,479
have just said that from the get go. Yeah, I

1604
01:36:55,520 --> 01:36:58,279
mean you you That's the problem is that you have

1605
01:36:58,359 --> 01:37:02,560
a Western idea that Christ did not assume human nature.

1606
01:37:02,600 --> 01:37:04,680
But human nature is a universal thing, and that's why

1607
01:37:04,720 --> 01:37:08,680
the scope in First Parents fifteen is everybody. And you're

1608
01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:12,000
just saying that God arbitrarily just resurrects the wicked for what.

1609
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:18,840
Speaker 14: To destroy them and give them the just punishment.

1610
01:37:18,960 --> 01:37:22,079
Speaker 2: Where is there any evidence death? Where is there any

1611
01:37:22,119 --> 01:37:25,479
evidence there's a resurrection that's not based on Christ's work?

1612
01:37:26,199 --> 01:37:28,760
Speaker 14: It is based on God's power.

1613
01:37:28,920 --> 01:37:32,600
Speaker 2: No, Christ's work. What did you already said? Christ assumed

1614
01:37:32,680 --> 01:37:34,560
human nature and you call it a universal I don't

1615
01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:38,119
think you know what that means. So but what where

1616
01:37:38,159 --> 01:37:41,439
is there any evidence of a Where is there any

1617
01:37:41,479 --> 01:37:44,359
evidence of a resurrection that is not based on the

1618
01:37:44,359 --> 01:37:46,600
work of Christ defeating death in our in our nature?

1619
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:54,880
Speaker 14: I guess can you show me where it says that

1620
01:37:57,760 --> 01:38:00,479
the wicked are raised in Christ.

1621
01:38:01,600 --> 01:38:05,119
Speaker 2: First Corinthia's fifteen says that all human beings are raised

1622
01:38:05,239 --> 01:38:08,800
in the same way that all human beings experienced death

1623
01:38:08,880 --> 01:38:12,319
on the basis of Adam's sin, So it's just as

1624
01:38:12,359 --> 01:38:14,520
wide as the scope of Adams. And you're saying, no,

1625
01:38:14,560 --> 01:38:17,319
it's not, it's only for Christ. Oh, so did Adam

1626
01:38:17,439 --> 01:38:21,680
only extend the death to certain people or to everybody?

1627
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:23,000
The scope is as wide.

1628
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:25,800
Speaker 14: As Adam to everyone, just like Sin died.

1629
01:38:26,520 --> 01:38:30,960
Speaker 2: Exactly, so the scope of Christ's saving the nature extends

1630
01:38:31,000 --> 01:38:35,039
as wide as Adam's sin. That's the argument of first

1631
01:38:35,039 --> 01:38:37,239
parent is fifteen. That's why all men are resurrected, even

1632
01:38:37,239 --> 01:38:43,840
the wicked. Okay, but why should I have to prove

1633
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:47,359
that explicitly from a Bible verse when Protestantism doesn't have

1634
01:38:47,399 --> 01:38:51,960
a basis for what books go on the Bible. I

1635
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:56,960
don't know, man, you don't know. Why would you be

1636
01:38:57,000 --> 01:39:00,520
Protestant if you don't know where the canon comes from?

1637
01:39:01,119 --> 01:39:08,720
Speaker 14: I mean, the like the canon. You want to talk

1638
01:39:08,760 --> 01:39:09,520
about the canon?

1639
01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:12,279
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if you're a Protestant, you believe in

1640
01:39:12,319 --> 01:39:15,079
the Protestant canon of scriptures, So why is that the

1641
01:39:15,199 --> 01:39:16,319
right canon of scriptures?

1642
01:39:20,640 --> 01:39:23,640
Speaker 14: I don't know. It's not necessarily something that is a

1643
01:39:23,720 --> 01:39:24,720
hill to die on for me.

1644
01:39:26,279 --> 01:39:28,359
Speaker 2: So you're not a classical Protestant, you don't believe in

1645
01:39:28,399 --> 01:39:29,159
solar scripturer.

1646
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:45,720
Speaker 14: I would say, I believe like scripture is a very

1647
01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:50,199
high authority, maybe higher than what you would say, But

1648
01:39:50,279 --> 01:39:53,600
I wouldn't say solo scripture.

1649
01:39:55,319 --> 01:39:57,800
Speaker 2: Is it the final authority for the church.

1650
01:40:07,920 --> 01:40:14,079
Speaker 14: I would say it's a higher authority than like some

1651
01:40:14,119 --> 01:40:16,000
stuff in church councils.

1652
01:40:18,239 --> 01:40:20,520
Speaker 2: Who decided what books go in the Bible.

1653
01:40:22,399 --> 01:40:25,439
Speaker 14: Yeah, I'm I mean, I know, like church fathers and

1654
01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:30,520
councils played into all that. So that's fine. If you

1655
01:40:30,680 --> 01:40:32,680
want to debate that with me, we can.

1656
01:40:33,039 --> 01:40:34,000
Speaker 2: Well, but I mean that's going to.

1657
01:40:34,039 --> 01:40:36,359
Speaker 14: Condition you don't find it hill to die on? And

1658
01:40:36,560 --> 01:40:37,680
I'm well, I.

1659
01:40:37,640 --> 01:40:39,399
Speaker 2: Mean, isn't that going to condition the way that we

1660
01:40:39,479 --> 01:40:42,520
interpret what Aaronaas says or what Maximus says or what

1661
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:44,760
NICs says? Is I mean for you, it's kind of

1662
01:40:44,800 --> 01:40:46,760
like touch and go or like you don't really have

1663
01:40:46,840 --> 01:40:51,000
to concern yourself with those guys, right, No, I.

1664
01:40:50,880 --> 01:40:55,000
Speaker 14: Do concern myself with those guys, and I like read

1665
01:40:55,119 --> 01:40:57,600
a lot of church history and church fathers and I

1666
01:40:57,720 --> 01:40:58,279
care a lot.

1667
01:40:58,520 --> 01:41:00,880
Speaker 2: So okay, but what does that have to do with

1668
01:41:01,039 --> 01:41:03,079
whether or not there's one true church or not? Because

1669
01:41:03,079 --> 01:41:05,840
That's where I'm going with this, because if you're a Protestant,

1670
01:41:06,439 --> 01:41:11,800
you obviously don't believe that there's one true church, right.

1671
01:41:12,199 --> 01:41:14,880
Speaker 14: I mean, I would say I believe in the priesthood

1672
01:41:14,880 --> 01:41:19,199
of believers, and that like a Muslim living in Iraq

1673
01:41:19,319 --> 01:41:24,880
who has a dream about Jesus tonight and understands the

1674
01:41:24,880 --> 01:41:29,439
Gospel and puts their faith in Christ, even if they

1675
01:41:29,600 --> 01:41:34,880
are not baptized into your Orthodox church, like I think

1676
01:41:34,960 --> 01:41:41,159
that they can be saved. So and I'm not saying

1677
01:41:41,399 --> 01:41:47,000
that like I don't know.

1678
01:41:49,439 --> 01:41:52,600
Speaker 2: So it doesn't really matter whether your Protestant Orthodox is

1679
01:41:52,600 --> 01:41:56,960
basically what you're saying, Yeah, well, then why be Protestant

1680
01:41:56,960 --> 01:41:57,720
if it doesn't matter.

1681
01:41:59,680 --> 01:42:03,239
Speaker 14: I mean, I would say the definitely the number one

1682
01:42:03,319 --> 01:42:16,000
reason that I have not become Orthodox is because I

1683
01:42:16,520 --> 01:42:22,039
think that the message has been lost, of just the

1684
01:42:22,119 --> 01:42:23,039
simple Gospel.

1685
01:42:23,319 --> 01:42:26,520
Speaker 2: And how do you know what?

1686
01:42:26,039 --> 01:42:26,399
Speaker 1: How do you know?

1687
01:42:27,279 --> 01:42:31,239
Speaker 14: I do believe in penal substitutionary atonement, and that like

1688
01:42:31,479 --> 01:42:34,439
I can't. Do you believe that Jesus was damned enough

1689
01:42:34,800 --> 01:42:36,840
to be at the level.

1690
01:42:38,359 --> 01:42:39,640
Speaker 6: Do you believe Jesus Jesus?

1691
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:42,039
Speaker 2: Do you believe that Jesus was damned? Probably?

1692
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:45,840
Speaker 14: No, I believe the wages of Sinn' death.

1693
01:42:46,359 --> 01:42:49,680
Speaker 2: Okay, well, classic penal substitution says that Jesus was damned

1694
01:42:49,680 --> 01:42:51,079
by the Father as part of the pain.

1695
01:42:51,199 --> 01:42:53,479
Speaker 14: I don't agree with John Calvin. I think he was

1696
01:42:53,560 --> 01:42:54,319
completely wrong.

1697
01:42:54,640 --> 01:42:56,880
Speaker 2: Well Luther teaches it to John Calvin is not the

1698
01:42:56,920 --> 01:42:57,439
only one.

1699
01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:01,960
Speaker 14: I disagree with Luthor then too, So.

1700
01:43:01,079 --> 01:43:04,520
Speaker 2: So you don't believe in you? So is it your

1701
01:43:04,800 --> 01:43:07,039
version of PSA that you've come up with or like,

1702
01:43:07,079 --> 01:43:08,000
where did you get this.

1703
01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:16,039
Speaker 14: From the New Testament? And like understanding, So.

1704
01:43:15,960 --> 01:43:19,279
Speaker 2: How is it a payment if he doesn't take the debt.

1705
01:43:21,079 --> 01:43:22,119
Speaker 14: He did take the debt?

1706
01:43:22,399 --> 01:43:27,720
Speaker 2: Is the debt damnation? No, it's death, but not spiritual.

1707
01:43:27,359 --> 01:43:29,880
Speaker 14: Death, complete death.

1708
01:43:30,159 --> 01:43:30,880
Speaker 2: What does that mean?

1709
01:43:31,039 --> 01:43:32,319
Speaker 14: Spiritual and body?

1710
01:43:33,239 --> 01:43:35,119
Speaker 2: You just said not spiritual, but now you said it

1711
01:43:35,159 --> 01:43:43,079
is spiritual. What you just contradicted yourself. You said it's

1712
01:43:43,600 --> 01:43:47,119
complete death, spirit and body. So the Son of God

1713
01:43:47,239 --> 01:43:48,439
did spiritually die?

1714
01:43:49,479 --> 01:43:54,680
Speaker 14: No, but like he died.

1715
01:43:56,000 --> 01:43:58,800
Speaker 2: But I thought the debt that we owed was damnation.

1716
01:44:00,079 --> 01:44:02,039
But is the debt that we owe not damnation in

1717
01:44:02,039 --> 01:44:05,399
the PSA view, I.

1718
01:44:05,319 --> 01:44:08,119
Speaker 14: Mean in John Calvin's PSA view.

1719
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:11,079
Speaker 2: Okay, well tell me in your view how it's.

1720
01:44:11,399 --> 01:44:15,720
Speaker 14: That Jesus went down to Hades and suffered. You know

1721
01:44:16,079 --> 01:44:16,560
all this.

1722
01:44:17,279 --> 01:44:20,279
Speaker 2: So you've made up your own Christianity. So why would

1723
01:44:20,359 --> 01:44:22,479
you make up your own christians So you've made it up,

1724
01:44:22,560 --> 01:44:27,520
you made up your own view basically. No, no, who

1725
01:44:27,560 --> 01:44:28,520
else teaches your view?

1726
01:44:29,960 --> 01:44:30,239
Speaker 15: Uh?

1727
01:44:30,359 --> 01:44:33,680
Speaker 14: Irenaeus, No he doesn't.

1728
01:44:33,000 --> 01:44:36,000
Speaker 2: There were no, he does not. You're totally wrong. US

1729
01:44:36,039 --> 01:44:38,720
does not teach penal substitutionary atonement. There's nobody in the

1730
01:44:39,279 --> 01:44:42,239
nobody in the first fifteen hundred years teaches penal substitutionary atonement.

1731
01:44:43,399 --> 01:44:45,279
Speaker 14: Melito of Sartis, well, he's.

1732
01:44:45,119 --> 01:44:49,119
Speaker 2: A heretic, so good job, all right, So you're in

1733
01:44:49,159 --> 01:44:52,159
with heretics. So you found a church father's heretic that

1734
01:44:52,199 --> 01:44:56,279
teaches your your view. How is it how is it

1735
01:44:56,319 --> 01:45:00,520
penal substitution if it's not damnation, which was the the penalty.

1736
01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:02,119
Speaker 14: I'm confused death the wages.

1737
01:45:02,840 --> 01:45:04,680
Speaker 2: You just said it's also spiritual death. Did you not?

1738
01:45:05,000 --> 01:45:09,279
Speaker 14: Well, because human beings, like we're not inherently immortal in God.

1739
01:45:09,319 --> 01:45:10,920
We live and move and have our beings.

1740
01:45:10,960 --> 01:45:13,880
Speaker 2: So I'm talking about the death that's the punishment, that's

1741
01:45:13,880 --> 01:45:15,239
the fall. Is that spiritual death?

1742
01:45:17,079 --> 01:45:18,840
Speaker 6: No, because you just said.

1743
01:45:18,640 --> 01:45:19,560
Speaker 2: It was spiritual death.

1744
01:45:19,640 --> 01:45:20,520
Speaker 14: Kick them out of the guard.

1745
01:45:20,840 --> 01:45:22,199
Speaker 2: Five minutes ago, you said.

1746
01:45:22,720 --> 01:45:23,640
Speaker 14: In a state of death.

1747
01:45:24,039 --> 01:45:26,720
Speaker 2: Literally five minutes ago said it was a spiritual death,

1748
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:27,439
which one is it?

1749
01:45:31,560 --> 01:45:35,119
Speaker 14: So for like a human being, this is.

1750
01:45:35,199 --> 01:45:36,720
Speaker 2: You're making this stuff up on the spot.

1751
01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:38,159
Speaker 1: So this is all right.

1752
01:45:38,199 --> 01:45:39,479
Speaker 14: I appreciate the conversation.

1753
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:48,920
Speaker 2: Okay, goodbye, Nuclear We got our wine. Mom of the night,

1754
01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:52,279
Matt one dollar. I was not trying to delete your

1755
01:45:52,359 --> 01:45:56,000
channel bringing that topic up, Anonymous, three dollars? What are

1756
01:45:56,039 --> 01:46:01,319
your thoughts on sixteen seventy two. I don't think there's

1757
01:46:01,319 --> 01:46:06,960
any problem with Dycitheus or Jerusalem. The problem is that

1758
01:46:07,039 --> 01:46:10,239
people see translations in Western language and they read all

1759
01:46:10,239 --> 01:46:16,640
the Western theological baggage into words. That's the problem. Why

1760
01:46:16,680 --> 01:46:23,039
am I mad? That was inane conversation. If you have

1761
01:46:23,079 --> 01:46:27,840
a disagreement, call in. This is not for you to

1762
01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:34,119
spam the chat on YouTube with your issues. And she

1763
01:46:34,199 --> 01:46:38,239
literally contradicted herself within like two minutes. So I mean

1764
01:46:38,279 --> 01:46:40,359
she literally said spiritual death and then she said it's

1765
01:46:40,359 --> 01:46:42,800
not spiritual death. I have no idea what she's talking about.

1766
01:46:42,800 --> 01:46:45,359
She's making up her own view, and I mean, look,

1767
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:49,079
I'm sorry, nobody. Irenaeus did not teach penal substitution. This

1768
01:46:49,119 --> 01:46:51,920
is what Protestants do is they see terms just like

1769
01:46:52,199 --> 01:46:54,800
what I'm talking about, uh, and they read into the

1770
01:46:54,920 --> 01:47:02,119
terms all of their theological baggage. So they see some

1771
01:47:02,199 --> 01:47:05,199
Western translation of aaron As and they see something, Oh,

1772
01:47:05,279 --> 01:47:07,359
he's teaching the Protestant doctrine and the soul of feeding

1773
01:47:07,359 --> 01:47:09,960
at penal substitution. So I mean, there is no penal

1774
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:14,000
substitution doctrine. That's what we know of as that from

1775
01:47:14,039 --> 01:47:18,199
the history of Protestantism. That doesn't include an actual transaction.

1776
01:47:19,560 --> 01:47:24,640
If the punishment is damnation and death, then the reformers argued,

1777
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:27,479
then Jesus had to undergo the punishment to give us

1778
01:47:27,479 --> 01:47:35,920
the right. That's the exchange. Unmute Sam, Yeah, how's it going?

1779
01:47:36,840 --> 01:47:37,279
What's up?

1780
01:47:39,239 --> 01:47:42,199
Speaker 1: Not that much was this listening in. I saw that

1781
01:47:42,279 --> 01:47:46,439
you're you have a wide array of people you'd like

1782
01:47:46,479 --> 01:47:47,319
to debate.

1783
01:47:47,359 --> 01:47:49,000
Speaker 2: Okay, so what's your topic of debate?

1784
01:47:50,680 --> 01:47:55,720
Speaker 23: Well, I am a Muslim, so maybe we could discuss

1785
01:47:55,800 --> 01:47:57,319
some theological differences.

1786
01:47:57,560 --> 01:47:58,880
Speaker 1: It's been my favorite of yours.

1787
01:47:58,960 --> 01:48:07,119
Speaker 23: Sure so John seventeen three, which Jesus said, and this

1788
01:48:07,239 --> 01:48:09,880
is eternal life that they know you when he was

1789
01:48:09,920 --> 01:48:13,399
speaking about the Father being the only true God and

1790
01:48:13,520 --> 01:48:18,560
Jesus Christ when he has sin. How would you reconcile

1791
01:48:18,680 --> 01:48:20,359
that with the idea of the Trinity.

1792
01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:25,000
Speaker 2: It's called monarchical trinitarianism. Everybody who believes in the traditional

1793
01:48:25,199 --> 01:48:28,720
Orthodox doctor in the Trinity first thousand years believes that

1794
01:48:28,800 --> 01:48:33,920
the Father is God proper, hence monarchical trinitarianism. And if

1795
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:36,199
you read the rest of the passage, it also goes

1796
01:48:36,239 --> 01:48:37,600
on to talk about the Son being gone.

1797
01:48:41,039 --> 01:48:45,119
Speaker 23: All right, how would you reconcile the.

1798
01:48:45,600 --> 01:48:47,239
Speaker 2: Have you read John seventeen to five?

1799
01:48:49,640 --> 01:48:51,720
Speaker 23: Yeah, I mean, I'm fairly familiar with it.

1800
01:48:52,079 --> 01:48:52,399
Speaker 1: What is it?

1801
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:53,239
Speaker 2: What does it say?

1802
01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:55,199
Speaker 1: I can I can't quote it verbatim.

1803
01:48:55,439 --> 01:48:56,560
Speaker 2: Well, do you have it in front of you.

1804
01:48:58,319 --> 01:48:58,640
Speaker 1: I'm not.

1805
01:48:59,680 --> 01:49:01,880
Speaker 23: I don't know how to leave this page and pull

1806
01:49:01,920 --> 01:49:02,840
it up at the same time.

1807
01:49:02,880 --> 01:49:04,279
Speaker 1: But if you read it, you're more than welcome.

1808
01:49:04,960 --> 01:49:07,239
Speaker 2: This is eternal life that they know you and Jesus

1809
01:49:07,279 --> 01:49:10,439
whom he has sent and now glorify me together with

1810
01:49:10,560 --> 01:49:14,199
you and the glory that I had with you before

1811
01:49:14,279 --> 01:49:18,039
the foundation of the world. So is Jesus saying that

1812
01:49:18,159 --> 01:49:20,720
he was equally glorified with the Father before the foundation

1813
01:49:20,760 --> 01:49:22,720
of the world.

1814
01:49:23,840 --> 01:49:26,079
Speaker 23: I mean the way I would understand that was, you know,

1815
01:49:27,479 --> 01:49:31,399
like how I would understand Jeremiah one five, where God

1816
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:32,960
was to Jeremiah before you were.

1817
01:49:33,520 --> 01:49:35,319
Speaker 2: Are you the same guy that calls into sam Shami

1818
01:49:35,399 --> 01:49:36,520
with this stupid argument.

1819
01:49:37,640 --> 01:49:39,399
Speaker 1: No, I've never speaking to the same.

1820
01:49:39,199 --> 01:49:42,279
Speaker 2: Does Jeremiah say that he had glory equal to the

1821
01:49:42,319 --> 01:49:44,359
Father before the foundation of the world.

1822
01:49:45,079 --> 01:49:47,279
Speaker 1: No, but it was predestined, So.

1823
01:49:48,079 --> 01:49:50,520
Speaker 2: So you literally you heard nothing of what I said.

1824
01:49:50,640 --> 01:49:53,720
Jesus says I have the same glory with the Father

1825
01:49:53,760 --> 01:49:58,720
before the foundation of the world. Jeremiah doesn't say that.

1826
01:50:00,880 --> 01:50:04,680
Speaker 23: Yes, let's see what you're saying, but it just you know,

1827
01:50:04,960 --> 01:50:07,720
the way it's qualified in seventeen three is that he

1828
01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:11,680
calls the Father the only true God. So that disqualifies

1829
01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:12,680
Jesus from being God.

1830
01:50:12,800 --> 01:50:15,720
Speaker 2: No, it doesn't, because Jesus himself, in the same passage

1831
01:50:15,720 --> 01:50:17,880
says that he is equal to the Father and has

1832
01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:20,119
all the same work. Says the Father and Jesus called

1833
01:50:20,159 --> 01:50:21,960
God in every chapter of the Book of John.

1834
01:50:26,319 --> 01:50:28,319
Speaker 1: I refree to believe that. I mean, if that's your.

1835
01:50:28,159 --> 01:50:30,319
Speaker 2: Interpretation, No, I mean it's not my interpretation. Is what

1836
01:50:30,359 --> 01:50:32,159
he says. By the way, doesn't the Koran say that

1837
01:50:32,239 --> 01:50:37,840
the previous scriptures in Koran five forty eight confirm the

1838
01:50:38,239 --> 01:50:40,119
new scriptures being the Koran.

1839
01:50:42,920 --> 01:50:43,840
Speaker 1: No, not exactly.

1840
01:50:44,199 --> 01:50:45,680
Speaker 2: What does it say, because I've got it pulled up,

1841
01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:48,720
we revealed to you, Oh, Prophet, this book a confirmation

1842
01:50:48,800 --> 01:50:51,039
of the previous scriptures.

1843
01:50:51,560 --> 01:50:54,239
Speaker 23: Yeah, but right after this says it's a supreme authority

1844
01:50:54,279 --> 01:50:54,720
over it.

1845
01:50:55,479 --> 01:50:58,319
Speaker 2: Okay, but does it claim to be a confirmation of

1846
01:50:58,359 --> 01:50:59,000
what came before.

1847
01:51:00,760 --> 01:51:05,039
Speaker 23: Yeah, But there's a caveat because in chapter two, verse

1848
01:51:05,039 --> 01:51:07,800
seventy nine, it says, well to those who write the

1849
01:51:07,840 --> 01:51:10,239
scripture with their own hand, then say this is from God,

1850
01:51:10,279 --> 01:51:12,319
and this is in reference to the previous scriptures.

1851
01:51:12,560 --> 01:51:14,720
Speaker 2: No, it says that they twist it with what.

1852
01:51:16,239 --> 01:51:19,439
Speaker 23: No, you're thinking of the wrong Verse two seventy nine

1853
01:51:19,479 --> 01:51:21,640
says they write it with their own hands and say

1854
01:51:21,800 --> 01:51:23,560
this is from God. You're thinking of the other verse,

1855
01:51:23,960 --> 01:51:26,359
which talks about the Jews who have twisted the words

1856
01:51:26,399 --> 01:51:28,840
of God. That's a different verse. The verse I'm talking

1857
01:51:28,880 --> 01:51:35,199
about is literal. If we say in Arabic or word.

1858
01:51:34,920 --> 01:51:40,600
Speaker 2: Corruption, what's the verse before that? In seventy eight, I

1859
01:51:40,600 --> 01:51:42,199
don't have it on me, oh I do. It says

1860
01:51:42,199 --> 01:51:44,880
that they are illiterate. The ones that you're talking about

1861
01:51:44,920 --> 01:51:47,560
in seventy nine, who distort it with their own hands?

1862
01:51:49,359 --> 01:51:50,960
How do they distort it if they're illiterate?

1863
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:54,119
Speaker 23: No, it's saying they try to fool the people I.

1864
01:51:54,199 --> 01:51:57,399
Speaker 2: Just read you. Among them are the illiterate who do

1865
01:51:57,479 --> 01:52:00,640
not know the scriptures. So woe to these who distort

1866
01:52:00,640 --> 01:52:02,159
it with their own hands when they say this is

1867
01:52:02,159 --> 01:52:04,920
from Allah? So how to illiterate people?

1868
01:52:05,000 --> 01:52:07,720
Speaker 23: The people that are trying to fool are the illiterate ones.

1869
01:52:07,760 --> 01:52:10,079
But the ones who are distorting it with their hands.

1870
01:52:09,800 --> 01:52:11,760
Speaker 2: No, it's not. It's the people who distort it that

1871
01:52:11,800 --> 01:52:13,880
are the ones that are illiterate because they know nothing.

1872
01:52:14,319 --> 01:52:15,960
Speaker 1: How do you come up with that interpretation?

1873
01:52:17,439 --> 01:52:20,520
Speaker 2: Because it says woe to those who dissort the scriptures? Right,

1874
01:52:21,840 --> 01:52:24,399
And it's not the scriptures that are distorted, it's the

1875
01:52:24,399 --> 01:52:44,359
people who distort it, right, who are deceiving people. How

1876
01:52:44,399 --> 01:52:48,880
does the Koran prove prove the previous revelation when the

1877
01:52:48,920 --> 01:53:08,239
Qoran says that the previous revelation is from Allah? Matthew H.

1878
01:53:17,479 --> 01:53:22,199
Speaker 1: Jay, can you hear me? Okay? If you're only debating,

1879
01:53:22,239 --> 01:53:24,079
that's okay. I kind of had a quick question, not

1880
01:53:24,159 --> 01:53:25,159
really debating.

1881
01:53:26,600 --> 01:53:31,680
Speaker 24: Okay, So obviously I'm just trying to understand from the

1882
01:53:31,800 --> 01:53:36,600
Orthodox position, like early in the Fathers that kind of

1883
01:53:36,600 --> 01:53:42,399
talks about the supremacy, kind of the supremacy of Rome,

1884
01:53:43,479 --> 01:53:46,439
Rome being the first see and kind of referring to that.

1885
01:53:48,399 --> 01:53:55,039
How does like, because obviously the Catholic claim is that

1886
01:53:55,640 --> 01:53:57,199
the Roman see is first.

1887
01:53:58,399 --> 01:54:01,159
Speaker 1: So how is that different than what, uh, I.

1888
01:54:01,079 --> 01:54:05,079
Speaker 24: Guess Vadictum one claims because you disagree with that?

1889
01:54:05,319 --> 01:54:07,640
Speaker 2: What is Vatican one claim?

1890
01:54:08,159 --> 01:54:09,239
Speaker 1: Like people inabability?

1891
01:54:09,720 --> 01:54:11,159
Speaker 2: How does first equate to that?

1892
01:54:18,560 --> 01:54:21,680
Speaker 1: I don't know. I kind of see that like the

1893
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:25,439
Roman Church would be first above the others.

1894
01:54:25,479 --> 01:54:27,159
Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, I mean it does that have

1895
01:54:27,159 --> 01:54:33,359
to do with infallibility universal canonical jurisdiction when Rome literally

1896
01:54:33,399 --> 01:54:37,239
just had to put out a document right here saying

1897
01:54:37,279 --> 01:54:39,479
that they didn't have that in the first millennium? So

1898
01:54:39,520 --> 01:54:40,319
which one is it?

1899
01:54:42,960 --> 01:54:43,600
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1900
01:54:43,880 --> 01:54:46,880
Speaker 2: Have you read? Have you read? She eighty?

1901
01:54:47,039 --> 01:54:47,199
Speaker 1: No?

1902
01:54:49,000 --> 01:54:54,199
Speaker 2: So right here, paragraph nineteen, the Bishop of Rome did

1903
01:54:54,199 --> 01:54:56,560
not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East

1904
01:54:56,600 --> 01:55:01,840
and the first millennium. So how is Vatican want true then?

1905
01:55:02,720 --> 01:55:04,920
Speaker 1: And where is this from? Sorry?

1906
01:55:06,359 --> 01:55:09,399
Speaker 2: So, nodality and premacy in the first millennium Gady document.

1907
01:55:10,640 --> 01:55:18,720
Speaker 25: Okay, so how does the Orthodox understand then, like, uh,

1908
01:55:19,439 --> 01:55:23,319
infallible dogmatic statements?

1909
01:55:23,359 --> 01:55:26,239
Speaker 5: Like how how does the church I guess.

1910
01:55:26,079 --> 01:55:31,239
Speaker 23: Uh put out a.

1911
01:55:29,880 --> 01:55:34,640
Speaker 5: Dogmatic statement that is infallible? Is it only at counsels?

1912
01:55:36,960 --> 01:55:37,159
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1913
01:55:37,199 --> 01:55:39,760
Speaker 2: The Orthodox Church only holds that for councils.

1914
01:55:41,760 --> 01:55:46,119
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, that was pretty much it.

1915
01:55:47,079 --> 01:55:48,880
Speaker 2: Thank you, sure, no problem.

1916
01:55:49,199 --> 01:55:49,520
Speaker 1: Uh.

1917
01:55:49,560 --> 01:55:51,920
Speaker 2: To the guy in the chat, if you want to

1918
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:55,439
come on in debate, you can. It's not a venue

1919
01:55:55,479 --> 01:56:00,560
for you to spam Protestant stuff everywhere. Nobody here is

1920
01:56:00,560 --> 01:56:04,159
going to be convinced by you saying that the Bible

1921
01:56:04,239 --> 01:56:08,359
doesn't talk about prayers to saints and Mary, so we

1922
01:56:08,399 --> 01:56:28,439
don't believe in scripture alone? What man? What go ahead?

1923
01:56:30,600 --> 01:56:32,479
You've been pushing the emoji for an hour? What do

1924
01:56:32,479 --> 01:56:47,800
you want the dude? What So you spend all that

1925
01:56:47,840 --> 01:56:51,199
time pushing the emoji and you don't have yours? Michael,

1926
01:56:51,359 --> 01:57:02,319
good job. My love is dying. I gotta replenish my love. Vasily,

1927
01:57:06,399 --> 01:57:13,880
Genesis priest, Vasili, what's up? I'm mute.

1928
01:57:15,279 --> 01:57:18,720
Speaker 26: Yeah, I just got a quick question about your understanding

1929
01:57:18,800 --> 01:57:27,640
of eschatology. Is Christ on the scene in Isaiah sixty.

1930
01:57:26,119 --> 01:57:26,800
Speaker 2: On the scene.

1931
01:57:26,840 --> 01:57:30,760
Speaker 1: What do you mean is he reigning? Is he back

1932
01:57:30,840 --> 01:57:31,399
on earth?

1933
01:57:33,359 --> 01:57:34,479
Speaker 2: Let me see.

1934
01:57:36,279 --> 01:57:38,840
Speaker 1: The whole chapter. Some would say is the millennial reign.

1935
01:57:40,199 --> 01:57:43,479
Speaker 2: We're not pre millennials. No, No Orthodox Church is pre millennial.

1936
01:57:43,560 --> 01:57:50,279
It was condemned at the Second Ecumenical Council. Christ's reign

1937
01:57:50,359 --> 01:57:51,560
began when he ascended.

1938
01:57:53,399 --> 01:57:56,920
Speaker 26: Okay, so at what point in your prophetic timeline is

1939
01:57:56,920 --> 01:57:58,600
Isaiah's sixty taking place?

1940
01:57:59,479 --> 01:58:03,079
Speaker 2: Now it's a prediction of the church. Hence the Gentiles

1941
01:58:04,760 --> 01:58:09,439
are mentioned. The Gentile church is mentioned. Uh, just scrolled

1942
01:58:09,439 --> 01:58:18,960
past that word to go verse five, verse six. That's right. Now,

1943
01:58:19,000 --> 01:58:22,880
this is all of the gentile nations worshiping the Messiah.

1944
01:58:22,920 --> 01:58:25,680
The kingdom is what Jesus set up in his first advent.

1945
01:58:26,840 --> 01:58:29,039
Hence the church is the kingdom of Matthew sixteenth.

1946
01:58:35,119 --> 01:58:35,239
Speaker 1: Ei.

1947
01:58:35,279 --> 01:58:37,720
Speaker 2: There you gotta amute man?

1948
01:58:42,800 --> 01:58:43,880
Speaker 1: All right, you're telling me.

1949
01:58:45,000 --> 01:58:47,640
Speaker 2: No the other guy, Genesis, are you there? You gotta umune?

1950
01:58:54,399 --> 01:59:02,439
Are you there? We can't hear you. So all of

1951
01:59:02,479 --> 01:59:05,800
these Isaiah passes, I've done whole talks on the prediction

1952
01:59:05,880 --> 01:59:08,520
of the Gentile Church in Isaiah, which is right now,

1953
01:59:10,119 --> 01:59:14,159
it's not the so called millennial rain. That's a judaizing heresy.

1954
01:59:14,199 --> 01:59:14,880
What's up Vasily?

1955
01:59:17,960 --> 01:59:22,600
Speaker 27: So hey guys, Hey Jay, sort of I've been listening

1956
01:59:22,600 --> 01:59:23,079
for a while.

1957
01:59:24,079 --> 01:59:25,439
Speaker 1: I'm in Sweden.

1958
01:59:25,600 --> 01:59:29,960
Speaker 6: Woke up in the night, but so it's some off

1959
01:59:29,960 --> 01:59:30,479
for the rest of it.

1960
01:59:31,079 --> 01:59:34,720
Speaker 27: But I don't know to common something about the the

1961
01:59:34,720 --> 01:59:41,439
Mormon the so so if you think of like what

1962
01:59:41,520 --> 01:59:46,880
they accomplish, maybe maybe not focus on the every detail.

1963
01:59:48,560 --> 01:59:51,800
Speaker 1: It's like the look at the actions and not the words.

1964
01:59:52,119 --> 02:00:13,199
Speaker 28: Okay, I appreciate that, Hm, go ahead, text us.

1965
02:00:14,960 --> 02:00:19,239
Speaker 29: Yeah, I was a revolution in the chat talking about Mary, okay.

1966
02:00:20,680 --> 02:00:23,920
And I just one of the ways that people talk

1967
02:00:23,960 --> 02:00:27,239
about the Trinity is they say that, you know, Jesus

1968
02:00:27,279 --> 02:00:28,720
can hear the prayers of everyone.

1969
02:00:28,800 --> 02:00:30,079
Speaker 1: It's talked about in John.

1970
02:00:30,600 --> 02:00:33,000
Speaker 29: And this is one of the ways that we affirm

1971
02:00:33,319 --> 02:00:36,920
that Jesus is God. And so but I've noticed that

1972
02:00:37,119 --> 02:00:41,439
the Orthodox and Catholics, they make the same claims about Mary,

1973
02:00:41,479 --> 02:00:45,279
that she can hear millions of people's prayers.

1974
02:00:45,560 --> 02:00:48,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, because in Revelation five through nine, the saints in

1975
02:00:48,199 --> 02:00:50,159
heaven hear the prayers of the saints on earth. It's

1976
02:00:50,159 --> 02:00:51,359
talked about in the Book of Revelation.

1977
02:00:53,239 --> 02:00:56,159
Speaker 29: But it doesn't actually say that, does it it actually

1978
02:00:56,199 --> 02:01:00,760
says that there's bowls, but it.

1979
02:01:00,640 --> 02:01:04,199
Speaker 2: Does actually say that because it says they're offering the prayers.

1980
02:01:04,279 --> 02:01:06,199
How are they doing that if they can't hear it?

1981
02:01:08,960 --> 02:01:10,119
Speaker 1: So it says.

1982
02:01:11,680 --> 02:01:14,880
Speaker 29: That they had balls full of incense, which are the

1983
02:01:14,960 --> 02:01:18,000
prayer prayers of the saints, So it doesn't actually say

1984
02:01:18,039 --> 02:01:20,359
they're listening to the prayers or they're answering the prayers.

1985
02:01:20,359 --> 02:01:22,159
Speaker 2: It's called the Communion of Saints. They're part of the

1986
02:01:22,159 --> 02:01:24,960
same church as us. So the problem is that you

1987
02:01:25,000 --> 02:01:27,359
don't believe that people can be deified, which they can.

1988
02:01:28,720 --> 02:01:31,720
Speaker 29: Okay, So I'm guessing your orthodox I don't know much

1989
02:01:31,720 --> 02:01:35,239
about you, but it sounds like anox sort of thing. Okay,

1990
02:01:35,840 --> 02:01:39,000
so I guess is there any other scripture whatsoever? Because

1991
02:01:39,039 --> 02:01:44,239
I'm not really convinced about that. But like, so, I'm

1992
02:01:44,279 --> 02:01:48,199
guessing that you're you're basically looking into the scripture from

1993
02:01:48,279 --> 02:01:50,760
your traditional beliefs.

1994
02:01:50,399 --> 02:01:52,239
Speaker 2: Which everyone does what you do as well.

1995
02:01:54,520 --> 02:01:57,079
Speaker 29: I tend to go more with if the Bible says

1996
02:01:57,079 --> 02:02:00,000
it and it overrides my traditional beliefs, I'll go with it.

1997
02:02:00,159 --> 02:02:03,720
Speaker 2: No, I'm talking about everybody interprets text from their paradigm.

1998
02:02:03,840 --> 02:02:06,720
So you have a Protestant paradigm from which you interpret

1999
02:02:06,720 --> 02:02:08,560
the text. It's unescapable. Everybody does.

2000
02:02:09,520 --> 02:02:12,880
Speaker 29: Yeah, everyone has paradigm. But we can overcome those paradigms.

2001
02:02:13,079 --> 02:02:15,640
Speaker 1: We can look at right.

2002
02:02:15,560 --> 02:02:17,600
Speaker 2: Yours is a false paradigm. Correct?

2003
02:02:18,479 --> 02:02:19,680
Speaker 1: Sorry? What was that? Yes?

2004
02:02:19,800 --> 02:02:21,920
Speaker 2: Correct, and yours is a false paradigm.

2005
02:02:22,760 --> 02:02:30,199
Speaker 29: But your understanding of this is basically from your church tradition,

2006
02:02:30,479 --> 02:02:31,560
So you're overwriting.

2007
02:02:32,159 --> 02:02:35,159
Speaker 2: You have a Bible that is from my tradition. The

2008
02:02:35,239 --> 02:02:39,399
received text is the Greek Church text, so you actually

2009
02:02:39,399 --> 02:02:43,079
borrow your name as Texas Receptives. That's the Orthodox Church's text.

2010
02:02:43,560 --> 02:02:47,119
So even you rely on us, I.

2011
02:02:47,119 --> 02:02:54,039
Speaker 29: Would say that the originals that the Byzantine Church did

2012
02:02:54,159 --> 02:02:57,039
use the Boison place.

2013
02:02:57,640 --> 02:02:59,239
Speaker 2: How do you know what the originals are?

2014
02:03:01,159 --> 02:03:04,359
Speaker 29: Because the Bible season relationship in twenty two nine.

2015
02:03:04,920 --> 02:03:07,000
Speaker 2: How do you know what the originals are? You're you're

2016
02:03:07,079 --> 02:03:10,279
so foolish that your name is Textas Receptis, which you

2017
02:03:10,359 --> 02:03:13,199
just admitted is the boys Untaking Church, which is the

2018
02:03:13,279 --> 02:03:15,680
Orthodox Church. And I asked you how you know that

2019
02:03:15,680 --> 02:03:20,800
that's the correct text from where? From where? And you're

2020
02:03:20,800 --> 02:03:23,000
going to cite the Book of Revelation, which is assuming

2021
02:03:23,039 --> 02:03:24,560
that that's part of the correct text, And that's what

2022
02:03:24,600 --> 02:03:27,640
I'm asking you, So stop us assuming the thing in question,

2023
02:03:27,680 --> 02:03:29,560
how do you know that that's the right list of books?

2024
02:03:30,199 --> 02:03:35,000
Speaker 17: Well, every text says this, and so well, every text

2025
02:03:35,039 --> 02:03:35,800
says what I'm about.

2026
02:03:36,039 --> 02:03:39,279
Speaker 2: How do you know that the textas receptist includes the

2027
02:03:39,359 --> 02:03:40,640
correct New Testament texts?

2028
02:03:45,680 --> 02:03:48,520
Speaker 29: Head to one of the textas receiptist has the correct

2029
02:03:48,560 --> 02:03:49,439
New Testament texts?

2030
02:03:49,600 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 17: Yeah, because.

2031
02:03:56,239 --> 02:03:59,079
Speaker 2: Begging the question, how do you know that? Because it's

2032
02:03:59,119 --> 02:04:02,000
written on the title, Where does Matthew identify that's written

2033
02:04:02,000 --> 02:04:06,399
by an apostle? So you don't know the.

2034
02:04:06,199 --> 02:04:09,640
Speaker 17: Third century documents that have this is from what?

2035
02:04:09,640 --> 02:04:09,760
Speaker 1: What?

2036
02:04:09,880 --> 02:04:11,640
Speaker 2: From? From what? People in the third century?

2037
02:04:13,359 --> 02:04:15,640
Speaker 17: From manuscripts from the party.

2038
02:04:15,439 --> 02:04:20,279
Speaker 2: Who maintained and passed on those manuscripts? Did they drop

2039
02:04:20,319 --> 02:04:20,840
out of heaven?

2040
02:04:22,840 --> 02:04:25,600
Speaker 17: They were multiple different like people.

2041
02:04:25,880 --> 02:04:26,479
Speaker 1: Like who.

2042
02:04:27,880 --> 02:04:28,680
Speaker 17: People in history?

2043
02:04:30,000 --> 02:04:33,279
Speaker 2: I mean the Orthodox bishops that maintained that the boys.

2044
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:37,159
Speaker 30: And tins, well I guess they.

2045
02:04:37,159 --> 02:04:38,479
Speaker 2: Who are the boys and tains?

2046
02:04:39,520 --> 02:04:39,720
Speaker 1: Well?

2047
02:04:40,199 --> 02:04:41,279
Speaker 2: Who are they?

2048
02:04:42,279 --> 02:04:44,560
Speaker 30: They?

2049
02:04:46,640 --> 02:04:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah?

2050
02:04:46,960 --> 02:04:55,800
Speaker 31: Exactly see, I'm getting mean again. I gotta I gotta

2051
02:04:55,800 --> 02:05:01,479
be nice. The boys and tape go ahead?

2052
02:05:01,479 --> 02:05:02,760
Speaker 2: Did you want to finish your comment?

2053
02:05:03,600 --> 02:05:04,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't.

2054
02:05:04,079 --> 02:05:05,119
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened.

2055
02:05:06,439 --> 02:05:08,640
Speaker 1: But you said that Isaiah sixteen.

2056
02:05:09,359 --> 02:05:11,199
Speaker 2: So it's the air of the church. Jesus set up

2057
02:05:11,239 --> 02:05:13,239
the kingdom of Matthew sixteen. He calls the church the

2058
02:05:13,319 --> 02:05:15,359
kingdom and is not postponed to the end of the world.

2059
02:05:15,359 --> 02:05:18,119
It's not pre millennialism, it's now. Hence a prophecy of

2060
02:05:18,159 --> 02:05:22,000
the gentile church, which proves Christianity, and all pre millennialism

2061
02:05:22,039 --> 02:05:24,560
does is destroy one of the strongest priests for Christianity.

2062
02:05:25,600 --> 02:05:27,640
Speaker 1: Okay, So why is it? Who are the gentiles?

2063
02:05:27,760 --> 02:05:29,840
Speaker 26: So it says gentiles will come to thy.

2064
02:05:29,840 --> 02:05:34,760
Speaker 2: Light the church. That's the church, the gentiles converting to Christ.

2065
02:05:35,439 --> 02:05:38,279
Speaker 26: Okay, so the light the your is Does it matter

2066
02:05:38,319 --> 02:05:40,800
what translation, my reader, what you're preferred?

2067
02:05:41,880 --> 02:05:43,840
Speaker 2: Arise and shine? Your light has called the glory of

2068
02:05:43,840 --> 02:05:46,960
the Lord has written risen upon you. Right, the Lord

2069
02:05:47,000 --> 02:05:50,560
will arise over you. When did Jesus arise over everybody

2070
02:05:51,039 --> 02:05:54,000
and rule over a gentile kingdom? When did that happen?

2071
02:05:55,800 --> 02:06:00,720
Speaker 26: I'm asking you, I don't take this to be fulfilled

2072
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:02,560
or I believe this is future.

2073
02:06:03,000 --> 02:06:05,279
Speaker 2: And I'm showing and arguing why that's stupid.

2074
02:06:06,199 --> 02:06:06,560
Speaker 1: Okay.

2075
02:06:06,680 --> 02:06:09,520
Speaker 2: When did Jesus rise up over everybody and sit at

2076
02:06:09,520 --> 02:06:10,680
the right hand of the Father at the end.

2077
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:11,000
Speaker 6: Of the world.

2078
02:06:11,920 --> 02:06:13,079
Speaker 1: Did they say right hand in here?

2079
02:06:13,119 --> 02:06:14,880
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, When did Jesus rise?

2080
02:06:16,760 --> 02:06:18,880
Speaker 26: It says, I don't believe this is Christ because it

2081
02:06:18,920 --> 02:06:20,760
says arise and shot your light has come.

2082
02:06:22,239 --> 02:06:25,319
Speaker 2: I'm asking you in the New Testament, when Psalm one

2083
02:06:25,399 --> 02:06:27,560
ten is cited every time in the New Testament, what

2084
02:06:27,640 --> 02:06:28,560
is it referring.

2085
02:06:28,239 --> 02:06:30,199
Speaker 1: To Isaiah's sixties?

2086
02:06:30,279 --> 02:06:32,479
Speaker 2: Not Psalms one team, I'm asking you a different question

2087
02:06:32,520 --> 02:06:33,479
that's going to relate to this.

2088
02:06:35,039 --> 02:06:36,760
Speaker 1: When did he he was already at the right hand

2089
02:06:36,760 --> 02:06:37,199
of the Father?

2090
02:06:38,560 --> 02:06:42,520
Speaker 2: The New Testament cites many times Psalm one ten. What

2091
02:06:42,680 --> 02:06:46,039
is it referring to When they cite it, it's a

2092
02:06:46,079 --> 02:06:46,760
basic questions.

2093
02:06:46,920 --> 02:06:49,119
Speaker 26: You don't know Christ, Christ sitting at the right hand

2094
02:06:49,119 --> 02:06:49,560
of the Father?

2095
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:52,319
Speaker 2: And when did that happen? In the New Testament citations

2096
02:06:52,359 --> 02:06:56,199
of Psalm one tenth, what event is that about?

2097
02:06:58,279 --> 02:06:59,920
Speaker 1: You tell me what's your what' you're under?

2098
02:07:00,319 --> 02:07:02,159
Speaker 2: It's called the ascension, So you don't know what you're

2099
02:07:02,199 --> 02:07:15,640
talking John. That destroys all the pre millennial nonsense. They

2100
02:07:15,640 --> 02:07:19,119
don't even pay attention to all the citations of someone

2101
02:07:19,399 --> 02:07:22,840
in the New Testament. It's not the pre millennial second

2102
02:07:22,920 --> 02:07:26,159
coming rain on Earth. It's literally cited in the New

2103
02:07:26,199 --> 02:07:32,279
Testament every time about the ascension. That alone destroys all dispensationalism,

2104
02:07:32,680 --> 02:07:33,479
all the nonsense.

2105
02:07:35,600 --> 02:07:51,920
Speaker 30: Go ahead, boys are tight, Boys are tight, boys untied?

2106
02:07:59,319 --> 02:08:02,760
Speaker 1: Yep, hey, I call in a few months ago.

2107
02:08:02,920 --> 02:08:04,319
Speaker 32: I know if you spoke about like the history of

2108
02:08:04,319 --> 02:08:05,199
sala officema everything.

2109
02:08:05,239 --> 02:08:06,720
Speaker 1: Do you remember that? Oh?

2110
02:08:06,800 --> 02:08:09,560
Speaker 32: Yeah, yeah, I just want to pay first, Like somebody

2111
02:08:09,600 --> 02:08:11,479
cut out that I made a clip of it.

2112
02:08:11,840 --> 02:08:14,520
Speaker 1: I said, like a Muslim scholars talk to Ja Dyer.

2113
02:08:14,920 --> 02:08:18,119
Speaker 2: I don't know who made that. Yeah, I think Novisky

2114
02:08:18,359 --> 02:08:21,720
made the clip and he misunderstood. But no, you are

2115
02:08:21,760 --> 02:08:22,760
not a Muslim.

2116
02:08:23,239 --> 02:08:25,640
Speaker 1: No, I'm an ex Muslim. But Bible was not a

2117
02:08:25,720 --> 02:08:26,479
Muslim scholar.

2118
02:08:27,199 --> 02:08:28,680
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. I think you just

2119
02:08:28,720 --> 02:08:29,199
assumed that.

2120
02:08:29,920 --> 02:08:33,760
Speaker 32: Yeah, I think it is a compliment. Anyways, I want

2121
02:08:33,760 --> 02:08:37,079
to talk more about Islam. Have you looked into the

2122
02:08:37,159 --> 02:08:40,319
Islamic problem of free will and predestination?

2123
02:08:40,720 --> 02:08:42,239
Speaker 2: I have, And I'm not trying to be rude, but

2124
02:08:42,479 --> 02:08:44,680
I'm gonna take We're gonna I'm trying to close it

2125
02:08:44,760 --> 02:08:47,640
up here. So call back in next time and we'll

2126
02:08:47,680 --> 02:08:51,840
do discussions of critiquing Islam. But last chance for anybody

2127
02:08:51,840 --> 02:08:53,520
who disagrees, went to mind you gots heading over to

2128
02:08:53,600 --> 02:08:55,600
chalk dot com. I've been going for almost five hours,

2129
02:08:55,600 --> 02:08:58,680
something about uh spent and if I keep going, I'm

2130
02:08:58,720 --> 02:09:00,760
going to get rude and then, oh.

2131
02:09:00,680 --> 02:09:01,479
Speaker 1: He wouldn't love it.

2132
02:09:01,640 --> 02:09:02,920
Speaker 30: He got mean with people.

2133
02:09:03,359 --> 02:09:05,359
Speaker 2: See, I'm starting to get a little mean, so I

2134
02:09:05,439 --> 02:09:08,960
gotta I'm at the back off. Plus it's Christmas, so

2135
02:09:09,199 --> 02:09:13,119
Merry Christmas and church tomorrow, so last chance. If you disagree,

2136
02:09:13,199 --> 02:09:15,520
raise your hand. I will try to be nice to you,

2137
02:09:15,600 --> 02:09:19,840
but my niceness points are running low right now, so

2138
02:09:20,319 --> 02:09:22,800
the love tank's empty. I spent all my love tonight

2139
02:09:22,960 --> 02:09:25,800
on everyone else. Heading over to chalk dot com, joq

2140
02:09:25,920 --> 02:09:29,600
dot com. That is the best in supplementation online. They

2141
02:09:29,600 --> 02:09:32,680
are my sponsor and they are a beloved, wonderful company.

2142
02:09:32,720 --> 02:09:34,920
You can get the best in supplementation at chalk dot com,

2143
02:09:35,159 --> 02:09:37,079
hq dot com right here. Use a promo go J

2144
02:09:37,239 --> 02:09:39,239
fifty excuse me, J forty you get forty percent off

2145
02:09:39,319 --> 02:09:43,640
j Ay four zero forty percent off. If you disagree

2146
02:09:43,800 --> 02:09:45,800
in the if you're waiting in line, you have to

2147
02:09:45,880 --> 02:09:48,359
raise your hand. Otherwise I'm not going to and if

2148
02:09:48,359 --> 02:09:50,319
you ask me a Q and A, I'm not gonna

2149
02:09:50,359 --> 02:09:53,920
answer it. So only people that disagree. So there's still

2150
02:09:53,960 --> 02:09:56,520
seven people on line. Do you disagree? Raise your hand,

2151
02:09:56,640 --> 02:09:59,199
I'll go to you. Use a promo go j forty

2152
02:09:59,199 --> 02:10:01,439
four life four for l A f E to get

2153
02:10:01,479 --> 02:10:07,479
forty four percent off. Guy am, my favorite clip is

2154
02:10:07,520 --> 02:10:11,359
you'r a goblin demon? But Retard Slick single handedly was

2155
02:10:11,399 --> 02:10:14,279
pushed out of Calvinism. Does anybody disagree?

2156
02:10:14,319 --> 02:10:14,880
Speaker 1: I see.

2157
02:10:16,279 --> 02:10:19,680
Speaker 2: Six people fought, none of you disagree. Why are you

2158
02:10:19,720 --> 02:10:21,439
still waiting if you don't disagree, because I'm not going

2159
02:10:21,479 --> 02:10:24,039
to unless you disagree? Anonymous? Three dollars? What are your

2160
02:10:24,039 --> 02:10:27,960
thoughts on? We already did that? Did I missed the

2161
02:10:28,000 --> 02:10:36,840
super chent Jenny Lamp? Ten dollars? That has nothing to

2162
02:10:36,880 --> 02:10:39,439
do with your stream. I just learned the lyrics to

2163
02:10:39,520 --> 02:10:41,960
Seal Kissed by a Rose? Can you sing the Jay

2164
02:10:42,000 --> 02:10:47,239
Dire version? Ah Ben kissed by a Rose on your grave?

2165
02:10:47,359 --> 02:10:51,279
I don't know whatever he says, Chris JD. Ten dollars,

2166
02:10:51,279 --> 02:10:52,119
all held.

2167
02:10:51,800 --> 02:10:54,680
Speaker 30: The boys in teen Boys and ten?

2168
02:10:56,399 --> 02:10:57,640
Speaker 2: Does somebody disagree?

2169
02:10:58,359 --> 02:10:58,640
Speaker 1: Luke?

2170
02:10:59,640 --> 02:11:03,600
Speaker 2: And to Jake? Do you disagree? Do you not know

2171
02:11:03,680 --> 02:11:08,560
how to use emojis. I mean, so none of you

2172
02:11:08,600 --> 02:11:10,720
are raising your hands. I'm assuming you don't. All right,

2173
02:11:10,720 --> 02:11:12,760
thank you guys. Uh, we're gonna call it a night.

2174
02:11:14,239 --> 02:11:18,199
No nol and nole ten dollars. I'm attending a Greek

2175
02:11:18,319 --> 02:11:22,800
Orthodox church. I know you recommended. Russian father I'm talking

2176
02:11:22,800 --> 02:11:24,880
to said Freemasons are not allowed in the church. He

2177
02:11:24,880 --> 02:11:29,600
doesn't like acumunism. Sounds like a good good guy. Sounds

2178
02:11:29,600 --> 02:11:32,000
like a good dude. Use your promo code J forty

2179
02:11:32,000 --> 02:11:34,319
four Our Life j JF for for LF right.

2180
02:11:34,359 --> 02:11:34,560
Speaker 1: There.

2181
02:11:35,119 --> 02:11:39,079
Speaker 2: You can get signed copies of my books at the website. Also,

2182
02:11:40,000 --> 02:11:45,239
head on over to my Twitter and remember that we'll

2183
02:11:45,239 --> 02:11:54,800
be live in Tampa at the Dark Seekers or Horror

2184
02:11:54,800 --> 02:11:59,000
Movies Tampa Screams Convention. The convention to separate from my

2185
02:11:59,119 --> 02:12:01,680
evening event, which if you come over here to the Twitter,

2186
02:12:02,079 --> 02:12:06,800
you get tickets January nineteenth, right here in the ticket link,

2187
02:12:08,359 --> 02:12:12,640
and then I'll take you over to here and the

2188
02:12:13,159 --> 02:12:16,439
dinner with me is separate. First thirty people that get

2189
02:12:16,640 --> 02:12:21,239
tickets get a copy of Esotery Hollywood, So get your

2190
02:12:21,279 --> 02:12:25,359
free copy right there, signed and it's a dinner lecture.

2191
02:12:26,199 --> 02:12:29,520
Tickets are thirty bucks. This is separate from the convention,

2192
02:12:29,640 --> 02:12:32,680
but we will be at the convention selling books and

2193
02:12:34,319 --> 02:12:37,560
signing books and all that data US seven ten dollars.

2194
02:12:37,600 --> 02:12:38,640
Thank you, brother, Thank you so much.

2195
02:12:38,720 --> 02:12:38,840
Speaker 1: Dale.

2196
02:12:38,840 --> 02:12:43,000
Speaker 2: I appreciate that. Appreciate that generosity. Again, Florida, if you're

2197
02:12:43,039 --> 02:12:47,840
in this region, come to the Tampa Screams Spooky Convention

2198
02:12:48,880 --> 02:12:50,680
and we're going to be doing it. We'll be doing

2199
02:12:50,680 --> 02:12:53,880
an evening talk. It's going to be fun, signing books,

2200
02:12:53,920 --> 02:12:57,560
et cetera. I'll see you guys there. Also, get chalk

2201
02:12:57,640 --> 02:13:00,000
dot com, get some supplements.