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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to the Path Went Chile for part two

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<v Speaker 1>of our series about the disappearance of Michael Sullivan and

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<v Speaker 1>Camden Sylvia. Robin, do you want to catch everyone up

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<v Speaker 1>when we talked about in our previous episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Michael Sullivan and Camden Sylvia were a couple who

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<v Speaker 2>had been living together for several years out of loft

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<v Speaker 2>in Manhattan. Because Michael had moved in there during the

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventies. It was much cheaper than usual because I

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<v Speaker 2>think he was only being charged like three hundred dollars

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<v Speaker 2>per month, and since there was rent control, he was

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<v Speaker 2>paying far less than the other tenants in the building.

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<v Speaker 2>This was nineteen ninety seven November, and Michael and Camden

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<v Speaker 2>at some point went missing. No one can really pinpoint

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<v Speaker 2>the exact moment they went missing. We know that they

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<v Speaker 2>rented a movie at a video store brought it back

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<v Speaker 2>to their apartment, but at some point they left their

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<v Speaker 2>apartment again and just vanished without a trace. So at

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<v Speaker 2>first no one really knew what to make of this,

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<v Speaker 2>But it turned out that on the same day they

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<v Speaker 2>went missing, they had been confronting their building's landlord, Robert Rodriguez,

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<v Speaker 2>because he had been very neglectful. He had not been

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<v Speaker 2>implementing heat in the apartment and it was a very

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<v Speaker 2>cold winter, so they presented a letter informing him that

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<v Speaker 2>they were not going to pay any more rent until

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<v Speaker 2>he fixed the problem. But it was right after that

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<v Speaker 2>when Michael and Camden vanished without a trace, and when

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<v Speaker 2>police wanted to bring Rodriguez to the station to question him,

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<v Speaker 2>he just decided to disappear for several days without even

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<v Speaker 2>telling his own family where he was going before he resurfaced.

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<v Speaker 2>But by that point he had hired an attorney and

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<v Speaker 2>would not cooperate with the investigation, so they began to

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<v Speaker 2>suspect that he might have been involved in that Perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>he wanted Michael and Camden out of the loft so

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<v Speaker 2>he could rent it out again at it much higher prices,

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<v Speaker 2>And when they looked into Rodriguez's background, they found out

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<v Speaker 2>that another man named David King, who was one of

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<v Speaker 2>his former co workers in business Associates, had also went

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<v Speaker 2>missing back in nineteen ninety. At first, they just kind

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<v Speaker 2>of thought that King disappeared on his own, but since

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<v Speaker 2>so many people connected to Rodriguez seemed to be going

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<v Speaker 2>missing under his watch, they began to wonder if he

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<v Speaker 2>might have had something to do with King's disappearance as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Puerto Riguz eventually got indicted on several charges of fraud

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<v Speaker 2>because he was suffering from financial problems and doing chicane

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<v Speaker 2>rey to try to cover it up, so he served

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<v Speaker 2>some time in prison before he was released. But at

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<v Speaker 2>one point he could have attained early parole if he

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<v Speaker 2>had readed to a request to turn over some guns

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<v Speaker 2>he owned, but he said he no longer had them,

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<v Speaker 2>and as retribution, he was forced to finish serving his

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<v Speaker 2>full sentence, which has created speculation that these guns may

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<v Speaker 2>have played a role in Michael and Camden's disappearance. Rob

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<v Speaker 2>Rodriguez was eventually released, and they have never found any

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<v Speaker 2>the victim's bodies or any evidence of foul play, so

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<v Speaker 2>it remains up in the air what actually happened to

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<v Speaker 2>Michael and Camden. So this is an unsolved mystery which

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<v Speaker 2>seems to be based around a very identifiable situation, as

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure that many of us have been through a

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<v Speaker 2>situation where we've had a dispute with a landlord, but

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<v Speaker 2>it's not often that these situations escalate to the point

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<v Speaker 2>where they potentially lead to murder, even though this case

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<v Speaker 2>does have a very promising potential suspect in Robert Rodriguez,

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<v Speaker 2>law enforcement is never officially named of as a suspect

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<v Speaker 2>and the disappearances of Michael Sullivan and Camden Sylvia, and

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<v Speaker 2>there's a very good reason for that. Well, Rodriguez definitely

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<v Speaker 2>displayed some suspicious behavior. There is no evidence here that

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<v Speaker 2>a crime has even been committed, let alone that Rodriguez

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<v Speaker 2>harmed these two missing individuals. If he was responsible for this,

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<v Speaker 2>he did a very thorough job at covering his tracks.

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<v Speaker 2>We do know that on the day that Michael and

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<v Speaker 2>Camdo went missing, Rodriguez have been presented with a signed

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<v Speaker 2>letter in which the couple and a number of the

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<v Speaker 2>other tenants announced their intention to go on a red

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<v Speaker 2>strike unless he provided them with adequate heating for their apartments.

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<v Speaker 2>But I'd hardly call that a strong motive to commit murder,

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<v Speaker 2>as it sounds like this issue popped up every single

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<v Speaker 2>year since Rodriguez was known for taking his sweet time

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<v Speaker 2>to heat up the building at the start of the

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<v Speaker 2>winter season. Even if you're a major penny pincher trying

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<v Speaker 2>to save money by any means possible, it seems like

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<v Speaker 2>quite an overreaction to decide you're going to kill two

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<v Speaker 2>people rather than simply turn on the furnace. But if

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<v Speaker 2>you put aside the why for Rodriguez committing this crime,

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<v Speaker 2>the how, when, and where are still complete head scratchers. Theoretically,

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<v Speaker 2>let's just say that there was some sort of confrontation

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<v Speaker 2>which escalated into murder. If this took place inside the

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<v Speaker 2>apartment building, not only would Rodriguez have to kill two people,

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<v Speaker 2>but he would have to do so in a fashion

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<v Speaker 2>which he didn't attract the attention of any of the

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<v Speaker 2>other tenants, as I don't believe they ever reported seeing

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<v Speaker 2>or hearing anything unusual all that day. He would then

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<v Speaker 2>somehow have to get their bodies out of the building

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<v Speaker 2>and dispose of them. But it's very difficult to be

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<v Speaker 2>inconspicuous about doing something like that in downtown Manhattan.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, and it's such a populated area. There's you know,

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<v Speaker 3>I'm sure there's not much sound proofing and things like

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<v Speaker 3>that in these older apartment buildings, and so it would

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<v Speaker 3>be very difficult to murder two people. You have a

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<v Speaker 3>man and a woman. You have to think about the

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<v Speaker 3>way that he would have to approach and defend himself

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<v Speaker 3>against two people who would react to him coming into

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<v Speaker 3>their space or confronting them. When you do back up though,

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<v Speaker 3>and you think about the idea that he was charging

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<v Speaker 3>these people three hundred and some odd dollars for rent

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<v Speaker 3>because of rent control, but in you know, then now

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<v Speaker 3>he would have been able to collect three thousand and

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<v Speaker 3>some odd dollars a month if a new tenant were

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<v Speaker 3>to move in in that rent control was no longer honored,

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<v Speaker 3>and so there is a significant financial reason for him

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<v Speaker 3>to need these two people gone, in addition to the

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<v Speaker 3>fact that they were causing social issues and possibly legal

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<v Speaker 3>issues for him as well. But like you said, if

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<v Speaker 3>we can understand, okay, he has the motive to do it,

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<v Speaker 3>how when and where did he do it? I'm just

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<v Speaker 3>as clueless as you.

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<v Speaker 1>I think when it comes to the why. If we

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<v Speaker 1>are to believe that he's killed before, it just seems

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<v Speaker 1>like whenever he has a problem, his go to solution

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<v Speaker 1>is I'm going to eliminate that problem. But then there

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<v Speaker 1>is a problem with the how, because if it was

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<v Speaker 1>in the apartment, how do you subdue to people. Perhaps

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<v Speaker 1>he had a firearm or something like that, and he

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<v Speaker 1>was able to keep them quiet, But then if you

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<v Speaker 1>murdered them in the apartment, what do you do, like

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<v Speaker 1>in the movies, roll them into a rug and put

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<v Speaker 1>them in a truck. Do you have a vehicle for transport?

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<v Speaker 1>Or did you hold a gun to their head and

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<v Speaker 1>take them into a van or something and then take them,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, to New Jersey or something like that where

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<v Speaker 1>there might be somewhere you could easily dispose of the bodies.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of questions surrounding how you could do

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<v Speaker 1>that with two individuals. Like with one individual, I would say, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>it would be a lot easier, especially if it was

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<v Speaker 1>a woman who was just Camden. But when you've got

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<v Speaker 1>two people, it's just the degree of difficulty goes up exponentially.

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<v Speaker 3>Is there any way that he could have asked them

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<v Speaker 3>to meet with him, saying, Hey, I'm going to talk

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<v Speaker 3>to you about this issue. I don't want this to

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<v Speaker 3>have to go to a legal place. I don't want

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<v Speaker 3>you guys to have to go on a rent strike.

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<v Speaker 3>Can you meet me? But if he did that, it's

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<v Speaker 3>not just Camden and Michael who are involved in this issue.

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<v Speaker 3>There's multiple tenants who are supporting them and behind them.

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<v Speaker 3>It's almost like something that the community bonds over so

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<v Speaker 3>if they were going to go try to argue on

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<v Speaker 3>behalf of the other tenants or their building or something

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<v Speaker 3>like that, in a meeting with him, I feel like

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<v Speaker 3>they would have disclosed that to somebody.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there's a dam in being like, let's set

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<v Speaker 1>a meeting. I think if he did do it, it

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<v Speaker 1>had to have been spontaneous, like he showed up at

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<v Speaker 1>their door. Maybe he convinced them to go somewhere with him,

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<v Speaker 1>and then he was able to get the jump on them.

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<v Speaker 1>But it almost seems like there would have to be

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<v Speaker 1>somebody else involved because if it was like, Hey, we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to go somewhere and he's driving, how do you

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<v Speaker 1>get the jump on them? Do you have a firearm somewhere?

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<v Speaker 1>And then you pull into like this undisclosed location. But

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like there'd be a lot of questions that

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<v Speaker 1>would be being asked, and because there's two of them,

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<v Speaker 1>I think that they would have been able to overpower

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<v Speaker 1>the drivers. So I don't know, Robin, what's your take.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, he did have a locksmith shop that he ran

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<v Speaker 2>on the ground floor of his apartment, which I think

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<v Speaker 2>function is his office, and I know that on the

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<v Speaker 2>day that Camden and Michael went missing. That's where they

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<v Speaker 2>met him to present him with the letter about the

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<v Speaker 2>rent strike. So it's reasonable to assume that if he

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<v Speaker 2>asked the two of them to meet him somewhere, that

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<v Speaker 2>they would do so at the locksmith shop, which is

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<v Speaker 2>still in the building and is still going to attract

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of time if you shoot them there or something,

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<v Speaker 2>and it would be difficult to smuggle their bodies out

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<v Speaker 2>because it's in the middle of a crowded neighborhood. And

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<v Speaker 2>I'd like to think that if he told them, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>why don't you meet us off site somewhere, like at

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<v Speaker 2>a different place, They're probably going to get really suspicious

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<v Speaker 2>and wonder why is our landlord asking us to meet

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<v Speaker 2>him elsewhere instead of at his locksmith shop. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's really hard to figure out. It just seems that

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<v Speaker 2>if he killed them in the apartment building, it would

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<v Speaker 2>have been very difficult to do it without attracting attention

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<v Speaker 2>from someone.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's a question for you. Did he have a van

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<v Speaker 1>because oftentimes if there's a locksmith shop, you're going to

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<v Speaker 1>get calls to apartments where people have locked themselves out,

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<v Speaker 1>So you would have to have some kind of transportation,

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<v Speaker 1>and oftentimes you would see a locksmith getting around in

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<v Speaker 1>a van or a car of some sort with maybe

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<v Speaker 1>like the logo for their locksmith shop emblazoned on the side.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have that information if he had a van,

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<v Speaker 2>but it would make sense to me. I know that

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<v Speaker 2>he had a car that he used when he disappeared

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<v Speaker 2>for a few days when he did want to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to the police, But maybe he had a separate van

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<v Speaker 2>for business purposes that he would use on the job.

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<v Speaker 2>And like you said, that would be much easier to

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<v Speaker 2>use to dispose of two bodies.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think another issue with figuring out what happened

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<v Speaker 1>here is that it's really hard to pin down the

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<v Speaker 1>last time that Michael and Camden were confirmed to be alive.

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<v Speaker 1>Some sources, like the victim's profile pages at the Charlie Project,

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<v Speaker 1>make it sound like they left their apartment to go jogging,

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<v Speaker 1>which is something they frequently did. If they managed to

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<v Speaker 1>exit the building and jog somewhere, then they could have

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<v Speaker 1>crossed paths with an unknown third party besides Rodriguez, who

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<v Speaker 1>proceeded to abduct and murder them. But from what we've

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<v Speaker 1>read in most of the news articles about this case,

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<v Speaker 1>it was only theorized that they went jogging because their

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<v Speaker 1>running shoes were missing from the apartment. As far as

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<v Speaker 1>I can tell, I don't believe there were any eyewitnesses

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<v Speaker 1>that could actually confirm having seen them out jogging that day,

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<v Speaker 1>which would mean that the last verified sighting of the

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<v Speaker 1>couple was when they rented the movie Addicted to Love

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<v Speaker 1>from the video store. Since the video was found inside

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<v Speaker 1>the apartment, they obviously returned there at some point, and

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<v Speaker 1>given that one set of keys and Michael's wallet were

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<v Speaker 1>also left behind, it seems likely that the couple left

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<v Speaker 1>together but weren't planning to be out all that long.

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<v Speaker 1>So the big question is did they cross paths with

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<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez and have some sort of confrontation with him before

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<v Speaker 1>they exited the building. Well, searches of the building failed

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<v Speaker 1>to turn up any evidence of foul play, but the

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<v Speaker 1>problem is that it was six days before the couple

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<v Speaker 1>were actually reported missing, so Rodriguez would have had ample

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<v Speaker 1>time to cover his tracks. Now, according to Camden's mother,

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<v Speaker 1>Laurie Sylvia, when she first met Rodriguez, he couldn't have

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<v Speaker 1>been any nicer, as he gave Laurie a new set

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<v Speaker 1>of keys for the apartment and said, quote, let me

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<v Speaker 1>know if there's anything else I can do to help. So,

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<v Speaker 1>at the very least, this suggests Rodriguez was not too

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<v Speaker 1>concerned about Laurie finding anything incriminating inside the laft. It

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<v Speaker 1>sounds like Rodriguez was very cooperative during the early stages

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<v Speaker 1>of the investigation until police ask him to come in

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<v Speaker 1>for a formal interview, which led to him suddenly taking

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<v Speaker 1>off and disappearing for ten days. However, did Rodriguez do

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<v Speaker 1>this because he was involved in Michael Incambenen's disappearances or

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<v Speaker 1>was he paranoid that the police might find some other

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<v Speaker 1>skeletons in his closet?

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, exactly when you look at this, there's a couple

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<v Speaker 3>of things that I want to ask you about. One,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't have a pair of quote running shoes. Judge

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<v Speaker 3>me if you will. Shoes are not my thing. I

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<v Speaker 3>have a pair of sneakers, and I have dress shoes,

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<v Speaker 3>and I have boots. So if I am not going

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<v Speaker 3>to want to wear dress shoes or my boots, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>wearing my quote sneakers and that's if I'm running or working.

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<v Speaker 3>It doesn't matter. So is it possible that these two

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<v Speaker 3>simply wore their quote jogging shoes as every day wear.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a fashion girl, Like I love fashion, and you

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<v Speaker 1>go and look at street style, and like the streets

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<v Speaker 1>of Paris or New York. Today, everybody's wearing runners with everything.

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<v Speaker 1>But at that time, I don't know if it was

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<v Speaker 1>as much the fashion. But I think it is possible

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<v Speaker 1>that somebody might have just one pair of runners, and

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<v Speaker 1>like you call them runners, but like really they're just

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<v Speaker 1>sneakers and you could wear them for a multitude of

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<v Speaker 1>different occasions. It doesn't have to be just for the

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<v Speaker 1>express purpose of exercise.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, So when people are like, Okay, well they're jogging

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<v Speaker 3>shoes are missing, I'm like, God bless them. I don't exercise.

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<v Speaker 3>So if my running shoes are missing, don't think I

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<v Speaker 3>went running because I did not. Okay, so note that down.

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<v Speaker 3>But so that was one of the things, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>this is a idea of should we be looking for

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<v Speaker 3>a jogging route or something. I think I wouldn't put

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<v Speaker 3>my sneakers on to go rent the movie, and maybe

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<v Speaker 3>when I came home I didn't take them off yet,

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<v Speaker 3>And so I'm not sure that that's even a lead.

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<v Speaker 3>But when we go down to the other idea, Rodriguez,

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<v Speaker 3>and the idea that initially he's very cooperative and then

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<v Speaker 3>all of a sudden he becomes very elusive and goes

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<v Speaker 3>on the run and becomes really shut off to police.

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<v Speaker 3>When Robin and Jules describe his background to me, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>sitting there thinking, wait a minute, is he so friendly

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<v Speaker 3>and nice at first because he has nothing to do

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<v Speaker 3>with it? And then when he realizes this is not

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<v Speaker 3>just going to be these two people that wandered off

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<v Speaker 3>and aren't home yet, this is going to be a

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<v Speaker 3>criminal investigation. They want to keep talking to me. If

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<v Speaker 3>they start to run my name, they're going to find

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<v Speaker 3>all of these things I'm wanted for issues I'm having,

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<v Speaker 3>or you know, these scams I'm running. And could he

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<v Speaker 3>have simply panicked and shut down and said I cannot

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<v Speaker 3>cooperate or else so much of my life is at stake.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, not only was he committing fraud at that point,

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<v Speaker 2>but we also have the disappearance of David King, which

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<v Speaker 2>took place years earlier, and that would be the wildest twist.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if that's what happened. If he was

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<v Speaker 2>completely innocent and Michael and Cambden's just disappearance, but was

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<v Speaker 2>guilty of the disappearance of David King. So he doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>cooperate in this case because he figures, well, if they

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<v Speaker 2>delve into my background, this whole thing with David King

294
00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:11.440
<v Speaker 2>is going to pop up again and they might find

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00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:15.159
<v Speaker 2>some incriminating against evidence against me in that case. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's a likely scenario, but it could

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<v Speaker 2>be an alternate explanation for why he was acting so dodgy.

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<v Speaker 1>Here refreshed my memory, Robin. We spoke about this in

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<v Speaker 1>our last episode. But wasn't there a bag of Camden's

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<v Speaker 1>that was missing as well? And wasn't it like a

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<v Speaker 1>large bag that could have been like a briefcase size,

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<v Speaker 1>or like a very large purse that would have been

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<v Speaker 1>able to carry documents or something of the sort.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the only details about it were that was a

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<v Speaker 2>bag that Camden normally carried when she took work home

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<v Speaker 2>from the office and it happened to be missing, And

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<v Speaker 2>obviously that's not something she would ordinarily take out if

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<v Speaker 2>she was simply going for a jog.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I'm not going to go jogging, I think I

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<v Speaker 1>said in the first episode with a giant purse. For one,

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<v Speaker 1>if you're a jogger, even if you bring any kind

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00:16:03.240 --> 00:16:05.960
<v Speaker 1>of purse that isn't strapped to you, it will bang

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<v Speaker 1>up against your butt, so and if you're you're not

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00:16:08.720 --> 00:16:10.440
<v Speaker 1>gonna hold it in your hand. So like if you've

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00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:12.840
<v Speaker 1>got a cross body purse or whatever, it's going to

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00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:15.559
<v Speaker 1>hit your body with every stride that you take is

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00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:18.919
<v Speaker 1>going to be so uncomfortable. So it's inexplicable that they

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00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:21.360
<v Speaker 1>could have just gone out for a jog and then

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<v Speaker 1>taken that bag with them. I mean, I guess you

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00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:25.840
<v Speaker 1>could say that they went out for a jog, something

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00:16:25.919 --> 00:16:28.120
<v Speaker 1>happened and then the bag got stolen, But like that

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00:16:28.320 --> 00:16:30.440
<v Speaker 1>seems entirely improbable.

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<v Speaker 3>So she would take that big bag, but he wouldn't

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00:16:33.440 --> 00:16:35.600
<v Speaker 3>take his wallet.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, if it's a thing where they had documentation,

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<v Speaker 2>like theoretically they're going downstairs to present Rodriguez with some

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00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:44.960
<v Speaker 2>paperwork while he's in his locksmith shop, that would make

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00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:48.000
<v Speaker 2>sense why they would take the bag but not Michael's wallet.

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<v Speaker 1>And maybe just because they were going downstairs, Like I

330
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<v Speaker 1>don't know how you guys are when you get home,

331
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<v Speaker 1>Like as soon as I get home in like a

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<v Speaker 1>comfy space, I put on like my sweats and I

333
00:16:57.720 --> 00:17:00.840
<v Speaker 1>get into my comfy clothes. So maybe because it was

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00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:04.319
<v Speaker 1>sort of informal with Rodriguez, they if they were going

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00:17:04.359 --> 00:17:07.519
<v Speaker 1>downstairs to the locksmith's shop, maybe they were just in

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00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:09.400
<v Speaker 1>their sweats at home and they were like, well, obviously

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00:17:09.440 --> 00:17:11.119
<v Speaker 1>I'm not gonna put on dress shoes. I'm just gonna

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00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.440
<v Speaker 1>put on whatever sneakers i've got kicking around. Doesn't mean

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00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:16.960
<v Speaker 1>they're going for a jog. But maybe they're just going

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00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:20.400
<v Speaker 1>downstairs to talk to Rodriguez and they bring the bag

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00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.880
<v Speaker 1>and they're also wearing their sneakers. That would be the

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00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.160
<v Speaker 1>only scenario that would make sense to me.

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<v Speaker 2>I think so because I think one of the sticking

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00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:30.960
<v Speaker 2>points with the sneakers it was early November, a lot

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00:17:31.039 --> 00:17:33.680
<v Speaker 2>colder than usual, So I think that's why people thought, well,

346
00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:37.240
<v Speaker 2>if they were going outside to do something besides jogging,

347
00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:39.400
<v Speaker 2>there shouldn't be any logical reason for them to wear

348
00:17:39.440 --> 00:17:41.880
<v Speaker 2>their sneakers. It would make more sense for them to

349
00:17:41.880 --> 00:17:44.640
<v Speaker 2>wear heavier footwear. But if they were just going downstairs

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<v Speaker 2>in the apartment and not going outside, then yes, it

351
00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:48.720
<v Speaker 2>makes sense they would put their sneakers on.

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<v Speaker 1>Was there any snow or rain or anything.

353
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<v Speaker 2>I don't think so. No, but they just described that

354
00:17:54.319 --> 00:17:56.960
<v Speaker 2>it was a colder than usual November and that's why

355
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<v Speaker 2>they were so anxious to get the heating turned on.

356
00:18:00.119 --> 00:18:02.759
<v Speaker 2>So one ironic detail about Rodriguez is that he kept

357
00:18:02.759 --> 00:18:05.200
<v Speaker 2>a newspaper article about himself on the wall of his

358
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:08.240
<v Speaker 2>office because in nineteen eighty four there was an incident

359
00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.000
<v Speaker 2>where he returned a loss nine hundred thousand dollars checked

360
00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:13.400
<v Speaker 2>to its rightful owner and was hailed as a hero

361
00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:16.440
<v Speaker 2>by the press. But it seems like Rodriguez might have

362
00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:19.680
<v Speaker 2>been over compensating a little bit, considering the numerous acts

363
00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:22.359
<v Speaker 2>of fraud he committed over the years. I think it

364
00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:25.599
<v Speaker 2>says something that Rodriguez originally bought the building with insurance

365
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:28.839
<v Speaker 2>money he received from his house burning down. Yes, I

366
00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:31.480
<v Speaker 2>guess they technically never proved that he committed our sin.

367
00:18:31.599 --> 00:18:33.559
<v Speaker 2>But when you're the type of person who uses the

368
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:36.599
<v Speaker 2>identity of a dead guy to obtain credit cards, I

369
00:18:36.640 --> 00:18:38.640
<v Speaker 2>think it's safe to say that there's no limit to

370
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<v Speaker 2>the type of scamshi'll pull. And of course there's the

371
00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.119
<v Speaker 2>fact that another person connected to him, David King, happened

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<v Speaker 2>to go missing while they were both embroiled in a

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<v Speaker 2>civil lawsuit. We'll talk more about David King in a

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<v Speaker 2>little while, But regardless of whether or not Rodriguez was

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<v Speaker 2>involved in his disappearance, the fact that he was allegedly

376
00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:59.720
<v Speaker 2>using King to provide him with confidential information from a

377
00:18:59.799 --> 00:19:02.359
<v Speaker 2>rio I have a fire alarm company really says a

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00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:03.400
<v Speaker 2>lot about his character.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, let's back up a little bit. He has this

380
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:10.480
<v Speaker 3>newspaper article that he returns a lost nine hundred thousand

381
00:19:10.519 --> 00:19:13.279
<v Speaker 3>dollars check to its rightful owner. What are you going

382
00:19:13.319 --> 00:19:15.519
<v Speaker 3>to do with a nine hundred thousand dollars check written

383
00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:18.519
<v Speaker 3>out to somebody else, Because it's not like it's a

384
00:19:18.559 --> 00:19:21.240
<v Speaker 3>forty dollars check, and you might be able to run

385
00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.160
<v Speaker 3>to the bank and try to cash it. And if

386
00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:26.319
<v Speaker 3>they said, hey, I need your idea to make sure

387
00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:28.559
<v Speaker 3>this is you, you'd be like, oh, I forgot my idea.

388
00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:31.079
<v Speaker 3>I'm so sorry. I'll be back, and you don't get

389
00:19:31.079 --> 00:19:33.799
<v Speaker 3>your forty dollars. Or because it's a small check, they

390
00:19:33.839 --> 00:19:36.440
<v Speaker 3>just cash it. Because you know, I'll pull into a

391
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:38.720
<v Speaker 3>bank here and I don't think they know me. And

392
00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:41.519
<v Speaker 3>if I try to cash a small amount, they cash it.

393
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:44.720
<v Speaker 3>If it's a larger amount, they need proof of identification.

394
00:19:45.319 --> 00:19:46.839
<v Speaker 3>He was never going to be able to do anything

395
00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:50.200
<v Speaker 3>with that nine hundred thousand dollars check. So the idea

396
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:53.319
<v Speaker 3>that I just said, hey, I found this check written too,

397
00:19:53.880 --> 00:19:57.160
<v Speaker 3>you know, Robin, And I'm like, hey, Robin, I found

398
00:19:57.160 --> 00:19:59.279
<v Speaker 3>this check of yours? Is that really heroic?

399
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Probably not? No, Like he if he had been able

400
00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:05.559
<v Speaker 2>to figure out a way to use the money for himself,

401
00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:08.039
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure he probably could have. But like you said,

402
00:20:08.039 --> 00:20:10.039
<v Speaker 2>you're not going to cash a nine hundred thousand dollars

403
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.880
<v Speaker 2>check under someone else's name unless you have a fake

404
00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:15.640
<v Speaker 2>ID or something like that, or concoct an elaborate scheme.

405
00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:17.960
<v Speaker 3>Right. I guess it was nice he returned it, but

406
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.200
<v Speaker 3>I mean, it just it doesn't seem like a heroic

407
00:20:20.240 --> 00:20:22.559
<v Speaker 3>thing that a newspaper would write something up about. But

408
00:20:23.079 --> 00:20:24.240
<v Speaker 3>I guess it is. I don't know.

409
00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:27.640
<v Speaker 1>I think that we can bet that he went through

410
00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:30.640
<v Speaker 1>every possible scenario to see if he could get away

411
00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:33.200
<v Speaker 1>with keeping that money. It's not like his first impulse

412
00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:35.599
<v Speaker 1>was like, oh, I better return the money. I think

413
00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:38.720
<v Speaker 1>that was just the last resort when he realized, shoot,

414
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:40.839
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to get caught here if I try to

415
00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:43.559
<v Speaker 1>deposit this into my account, or if I try to

416
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:46.079
<v Speaker 1>like fake this in some way, So why don't I

417
00:20:46.119 --> 00:20:48.799
<v Speaker 1>come out looking like, you know, smelling like roses and

418
00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:51.960
<v Speaker 1>look like the hero. But I agree, it's not really heroic.

419
00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:53.160
<v Speaker 1>It's like the only option.

420
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:55.920
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and if it was nine hundred thousand dollars cash

421
00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.599
<v Speaker 3>and you returned it hero here, Yes, Okay, this is

422
00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:02.640
<v Speaker 3>a check written as somebody else, Like you don't just

423
00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:04.680
<v Speaker 3>walk up to the bank and like cash this baby

424
00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:07.640
<v Speaker 3>for me, you know, No, No, we're gonna go ahead

425
00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:10.839
<v Speaker 3>and need some some proof of identification. So I don't know.

426
00:21:10.960 --> 00:21:14.000
<v Speaker 3>I think it kind of shows this narcissism that he

427
00:21:14.599 --> 00:21:17.880
<v Speaker 3>has this newspaper article framed about himself while he's actively

428
00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:21.359
<v Speaker 3>committed fraud. Is it something that almost provides him this

429
00:21:21.480 --> 00:21:25.599
<v Speaker 3>illogical comfort of I'm a good person, I do good things,

430
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.000
<v Speaker 3>and he has a frame to look at because honestly,

431
00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:31.079
<v Speaker 3>in his everyday life, he's not able to do that consistently.

432
00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Baby, it's an entitlement thing saying I heroically returned nine

433
00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:37.200
<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand dollars, so therefore I deserve to make nine

434
00:21:37.319 --> 00:21:40.319
<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand dollars through other means. So what I'm doing

435
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:41.079
<v Speaker 2>is not illegal.

436
00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So by the time Rodriguez resurface after disappearing for

437
00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:50.319
<v Speaker 1>ten days, he hired himself the services of an attorney

438
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:53.799
<v Speaker 1>named Michael Rosen, and this was a very prominent, high

439
00:21:53.799 --> 00:21:57.759
<v Speaker 1>priced guy, as Rosen once represented Thomas Gambino of the

440
00:21:57.839 --> 00:22:02.000
<v Speaker 1>infamous Gambino crime family. Since Rodriguez lied to his family

441
00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:04.839
<v Speaker 1>about going in for a police interview before he took off,

442
00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:08.759
<v Speaker 1>this suggests that he was incredibly paranoid about something. But

443
00:22:08.920 --> 00:22:11.160
<v Speaker 1>was it because he had knowledge or involvement in the

444
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:14.880
<v Speaker 1>disappearances of Michael and Camden Well. It's easy to take

445
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:17.720
<v Speaker 1>his actions as a sign of guilt, but Rodriguez had

446
00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.119
<v Speaker 1>spent the past several years committing numerous acts of fraud,

447
00:22:21.519 --> 00:22:24.440
<v Speaker 1>so even if he was completely innocent of any role

448
00:22:24.440 --> 00:22:27.559
<v Speaker 1>in the disappearances, he might have feared that if the

449
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:31.319
<v Speaker 1>police started interviewing him and investigating him, they were going

450
00:22:31.400 --> 00:22:35.319
<v Speaker 1>to turn up his other financial indiscretions, which is why

451
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:38.680
<v Speaker 1>he panicked and got himself a lawyer. If this was

452
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:42.319
<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez's intention all along, then it didn't really do him

453
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:46.480
<v Speaker 1>any good, since it only provided further motivation for authorities

454
00:22:46.519 --> 00:22:49.720
<v Speaker 1>to look into his background and that's when they uncovered

455
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:52.920
<v Speaker 1>enough evidence to arrest him on all those other charges

456
00:22:53.000 --> 00:22:56.599
<v Speaker 1>and send him to prison. Well, it's undeniable that Rodriguez

457
00:22:56.640 --> 00:23:00.000
<v Speaker 1>is a criminal. Does this necessarily mean that he's a murderer?

458
00:23:00.839 --> 00:23:04.839
<v Speaker 1>If Michael and Camden had somehow uncovered evidence of Rodriguez's

459
00:23:04.920 --> 00:23:08.079
<v Speaker 1>history of fraud, that might have given him a motive

460
00:23:08.119 --> 00:23:10.559
<v Speaker 1>to kill them, But there's nothing to indicate that they

461
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:11.319
<v Speaker 1>knew about it.

462
00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:14.599
<v Speaker 3>Also, when you think about the idea that these two

463
00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:18.279
<v Speaker 3>people were murdered, and you know, we had this knowledge

464
00:23:18.279 --> 00:23:19.680
<v Speaker 3>that they went to the video store and run in

465
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:23.440
<v Speaker 3>a video, we have knowledge that he left his wallet there.

466
00:23:24.039 --> 00:23:28.000
<v Speaker 3>If they voluntarily left their apartment and were victims of

467
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:33.799
<v Speaker 3>some kind of random act, do most random double murders

468
00:23:34.559 --> 00:23:38.160
<v Speaker 3>result in someone hiding two bodies so well? Or would

469
00:23:38.160 --> 00:23:40.440
<v Speaker 3>it be more like, Hey, if I was robbing these two,

470
00:23:40.599 --> 00:23:42.759
<v Speaker 3>or I was trying to confront these two, wouldn't you

471
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:45.680
<v Speaker 3>have just found their body in the park or wherever

472
00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:48.599
<v Speaker 3>they had just been attacked? So I don't know. I

473
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:53.039
<v Speaker 3>just keep thinking like, was this a targeted killing? But

474
00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:55.480
<v Speaker 3>how did they get them out of their apartment for

475
00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:59.279
<v Speaker 3>a temporary moment when everything inside their apartment shows that

476
00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:01.319
<v Speaker 3>they were going to be coming back and spending the

477
00:24:01.359 --> 00:24:01.960
<v Speaker 3>evening there.

478
00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:05.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I agree. Like if they went out and were

479
00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.960
<v Speaker 2>the victims of random mugging, I think whoever killed them

480
00:24:07.960 --> 00:24:09.920
<v Speaker 2>would just leave them there rather than going to the

481
00:24:09.960 --> 00:24:12.440
<v Speaker 2>trouble of transferring their bodies and getting rid of them,

482
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.200
<v Speaker 2>which is why it seems likely that they were murdered

483
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:17.519
<v Speaker 2>by someone they knew who had a lot to hide,

484
00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.759
<v Speaker 2>And of course Rodriguez seems like the most logical suspect

485
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:24.000
<v Speaker 2>to do that. But once again, the logistics of him

486
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:26.839
<v Speaker 2>pulling off are the part that we just can't figure out.

487
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.640
<v Speaker 1>What do we know about his associates? Did he have

488
00:24:30.680 --> 00:24:33.400
<v Speaker 1>any other criminal friends that he hung out with, because

489
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:37.160
<v Speaker 1>if this happened, it seems likely to me that there

490
00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:42.400
<v Speaker 1>could have, or maybe potentially was a second person who

491
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:44.200
<v Speaker 1>was assisting Rodriguez.

492
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:47.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's what I'm thinking. I haven't heard about

493
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:50.279
<v Speaker 2>him having any associates who helped him with his criminal activities.

494
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:53.119
<v Speaker 2>As far as I know, he worked alone, and I

495
00:24:53.160 --> 00:24:55.519
<v Speaker 2>don't know if he had anyone else closer to him

496
00:24:55.559 --> 00:24:58.640
<v Speaker 2>who would have helped him dispose of two bodies. I

497
00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:00.839
<v Speaker 2>guess is that another possibility as he could have gotten

498
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.240
<v Speaker 2>members of his family to help out, because they were

499
00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:06.599
<v Speaker 2>described as not being very cooperative with the police whence

500
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:10.839
<v Speaker 2>Rodriguez went missing. But that depends like, do you want

501
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:13.039
<v Speaker 2>to protect a family member that you think who has

502
00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:15.400
<v Speaker 2>committed fraud. I'm sure they would be willing to do that,

503
00:25:15.799 --> 00:25:17.720
<v Speaker 2>But would they go to that length to help protect

504
00:25:17.759 --> 00:25:19.880
<v Speaker 2>him if they knew that he had committed two murders.

505
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:23.960
<v Speaker 2>So another potential motive which has been pushed forward, is

506
00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:26.400
<v Speaker 2>that Rodriguez wanted the couple out of the way so

507
00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:28.759
<v Speaker 2>we could finally rent out their loft to someone for

508
00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:31.720
<v Speaker 2>a much larger sum of money. I mean, even in

509
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:34.599
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety seven, paying a monthly rent of only three

510
00:25:34.680 --> 00:25:37.599
<v Speaker 2>hundred and four dollars for a fourteen hundred square foot

511
00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:41.240
<v Speaker 2>loft in Manhattan is a pretty mind blowing deal. Even

512
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.960
<v Speaker 2>if there were issues with the heating or Rodriguez in general.

513
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:47.480
<v Speaker 2>I can definitely understand why Michael and Candon would have

514
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:50.599
<v Speaker 2>wanted to hold onto this place. At the time, New

515
00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:54.440
<v Speaker 2>York City had very strict rent control and stabilization, and

516
00:25:54.519 --> 00:25:57.839
<v Speaker 2>since Michael had originally rented the place over twenty years earlier,

517
00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:59.960
<v Speaker 2>he did not have to worry too much about him.

518
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:04.200
<v Speaker 2>We know that Rodriguez was suffering from financial problems and

519
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:07.279
<v Speaker 2>over thousands of dollars in back taxes on the building,

520
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:09.799
<v Speaker 2>so yes, it would have been in his best interest

521
00:26:09.880 --> 00:26:12.359
<v Speaker 2>to have Michael and Camden out of the loft so

522
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:14.119
<v Speaker 2>that he could rent it to a new tenant at

523
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.480
<v Speaker 2>three thousand dollars per month. That might seem like a

524
00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:20.680
<v Speaker 2>compelling motive, but the problem is that Rodriguez really didn't

525
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:23.519
<v Speaker 2>gain anything from the couple's absence in the long run.

526
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.079
<v Speaker 2>I know that until Rodriguez's arrest, there was a dispute

527
00:26:27.079 --> 00:26:31.039
<v Speaker 2>between him and Camden's mother, Laurie Sylvia, because she wanted

528
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:33.480
<v Speaker 2>to pay the three hundred and four dollars monthly rent

529
00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:35.799
<v Speaker 2>to hold on to the loft, but he refused to

530
00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:39.480
<v Speaker 2>accept the money. Rodriguez's attorney did make a public statement

531
00:26:39.599 --> 00:26:41.759
<v Speaker 2>that he had no intention of renting out the loft

532
00:26:41.799 --> 00:26:45.000
<v Speaker 2>while Michael and Camden were missing, but it's possible that

533
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:48.279
<v Speaker 2>Rodriguez was advised to do this for pr purposes in

534
00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:51.920
<v Speaker 2>order to make himself look less suspicious. But the ironic

535
00:26:51.960 --> 00:26:55.640
<v Speaker 2>thing is that the publicity surrounding the disappearances actually drew

536
00:26:55.720 --> 00:26:58.640
<v Speaker 2>interest in the loft from a number of curiosity seekers

537
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:02.079
<v Speaker 2>who wanted to rent it. Rodriguez could have made himself

538
00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:04.119
<v Speaker 2>a good chunk of money if he let this happen,

539
00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.680
<v Speaker 2>but he never did, and the loft did not go

540
00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:10.279
<v Speaker 2>on the market again until after Rodriguez was arrested and

541
00:27:10.319 --> 00:27:13.839
<v Speaker 2>sold the building to new owners. So yes, Campden and

542
00:27:13.880 --> 00:27:17.720
<v Speaker 2>Michael's disappearances did not financially benefit Rodriguez in any way

543
00:27:18.599 --> 00:27:22.240
<v Speaker 2>until Rodriguez's arrest. I cannot imagine how awkward it must

544
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:24.799
<v Speaker 2>have been for the other residents of that building to

545
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.680
<v Speaker 2>be living with a landlord who was under suspicion for

546
00:27:27.799 --> 00:27:31.880
<v Speaker 2>potentially causing the disappearances of two tenants, even if they

547
00:27:31.880 --> 00:27:34.440
<v Speaker 2>didn't believe he was guilty. How weird would it have

548
00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.240
<v Speaker 2>felt to bring an issue to this guy's attention. I

549
00:27:37.279 --> 00:27:39.720
<v Speaker 2>wonder if anyone ever complained about the heat again?

550
00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:43.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah you know, I mean for me when you look

551
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:47.119
<v Speaker 3>at this idea, would it have benefited him to get

552
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.599
<v Speaker 3>rid of them? I think in the long run, yes,

553
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:54.359
<v Speaker 3>short term no, because again he denies that he's willing

554
00:27:54.400 --> 00:27:57.480
<v Speaker 3>to take payment for the rent. But remember he's only

555
00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:01.160
<v Speaker 3>getting three hundred dollars a month. When is three thousand

556
00:28:01.240 --> 00:28:05.359
<v Speaker 3>a month. So is he really going to be made

557
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:07.799
<v Speaker 3>or broken because of the three hundred dollars a month

558
00:28:07.839 --> 00:28:11.839
<v Speaker 3>he's missing? Probably not. It almost makes me wonder does

559
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:14.720
<v Speaker 3>he not fix things in the building hoping that these

560
00:28:15.319 --> 00:28:18.119
<v Speaker 3>people who have been there for a long time get

561
00:28:18.119 --> 00:28:20.880
<v Speaker 3>fed up and they want to leave. But I think

562
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:23.279
<v Speaker 3>when you're being held at a three hundred and four

563
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:25.759
<v Speaker 3>dollars a month rent, I would put up with a

564
00:28:25.880 --> 00:28:28.640
<v Speaker 3>heck of a lot, and I would fuss and fight,

565
00:28:28.759 --> 00:28:31.359
<v Speaker 3>but I would have zero intention of leaving. But I

566
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.640
<v Speaker 3>wonder if he thinks in his head, if I can

567
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.440
<v Speaker 3>just hold out long enough, they'll get so miserable that

568
00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:38.640
<v Speaker 3>they'll want out, and then he could start running those

569
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:41.000
<v Speaker 3>other loss out for the three thousand dollars a month.

570
00:28:41.880 --> 00:28:43.759
<v Speaker 3>Does he think he's gonna go by and kill every

571
00:28:43.799 --> 00:28:46.279
<v Speaker 3>single one of the residents that's paying three hundred and

572
00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:50.519
<v Speaker 3>seven dollars a month? No? Probably not. But like we

573
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:54.680
<v Speaker 3>talked about earlier, is it possible that a confrontation went

574
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.880
<v Speaker 3>sour even when it wasn't intended to result in their

575
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:02.000
<v Speaker 3>deaths and that's what happened? Or is this just simultaneously

576
00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:06.119
<v Speaker 3>existing with a really bad guy being their landlord and

577
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:09.200
<v Speaker 3>they also go missing because of nothing he did. I

578
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:13.400
<v Speaker 3>don't like Rodriguez. He has so many arrows and neon

579
00:29:13.519 --> 00:29:16.359
<v Speaker 3>signs pointing to him. But again, I'm trying to figure

580
00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:19.519
<v Speaker 3>out how and how did he hide it so good,

581
00:29:20.160 --> 00:29:24.119
<v Speaker 3>And the police did really explore and examine his life

582
00:29:24.200 --> 00:29:27.160
<v Speaker 3>and they didn't find any evidence or anything to link

583
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.759
<v Speaker 3>him to Michael and Camden. So I'm just torn.

584
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.000
<v Speaker 2>And it's like, if a crime had taken place in

585
00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:36.759
<v Speaker 2>the apartment building, and if any of the other tenants

586
00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:39.160
<v Speaker 2>like heard or saw anything unusual, I don't think they

587
00:29:39.240 --> 00:29:42.200
<v Speaker 2>keep their mouth shuts about it because they disliked Rodriguez too.

588
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:44.359
<v Speaker 2>It would have been more than happy to see him

589
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:47.359
<v Speaker 2>removed his landlord if he was a suspect and a murder.

590
00:29:47.680 --> 00:29:50.279
<v Speaker 2>But the fact that they didn't report anything suspicious just

591
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:52.440
<v Speaker 2>seems so odd to me and makes me wonder if

592
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:55.759
<v Speaker 2>murders took place they took if they occurred at another location.

593
00:29:57.519 --> 00:30:00.880
<v Speaker 1>Now we mentioned earlier that we cannot possible the pinpoint

594
00:30:00.920 --> 00:30:03.920
<v Speaker 1>the last time Michael and Camden were confirmed to be alive,

595
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:06.880
<v Speaker 1>and we can't even be one hundred percent certain that

596
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:11.079
<v Speaker 1>they interacted with Rodriguez. According to their neighbor Check Delaney,

597
00:30:11.279 --> 00:30:14.240
<v Speaker 1>He did see Camden in the building that morning and

598
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:17.279
<v Speaker 1>she told him she was heading to Rodriguez's locksmith shop

599
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:19.920
<v Speaker 1>to present him with a signed letter about the rent strip.

600
00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:23.200
<v Speaker 1>We know this letter did wind up in the office,

601
00:30:23.319 --> 00:30:26.160
<v Speaker 1>but it's unclear if Camden just dropped it off there

602
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.759
<v Speaker 1>or if she interacted with Rodriguez. Since Rodriguez declined to

603
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:34.359
<v Speaker 1>discuss the case publicly, he never did confirm or deny

604
00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:37.519
<v Speaker 1>if he spoke with her. The transaction at the video

605
00:30:37.559 --> 00:30:41.119
<v Speaker 1>store confirmed that Camden did visit other locations that day,

606
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.079
<v Speaker 1>and the primary theory, which has been presented by her mother, Laurie,

607
00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:48.359
<v Speaker 1>is that after renting the video, Camden returned to the

608
00:30:48.400 --> 00:30:51.359
<v Speaker 1>apartment and both she and Michael decided to go out

609
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:55.000
<v Speaker 1>and confront Rodriguez together. This is when things could have

610
00:30:55.039 --> 00:30:59.000
<v Speaker 1>gone horribly wrong and they both wound up dead. But again,

611
00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:02.440
<v Speaker 1>if Rodriguez committed murder inside the building, how did he

612
00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:05.960
<v Speaker 1>manage to do so without attracting attention and how did

613
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:07.559
<v Speaker 1>he dispose of the two bodies?

614
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:12.759
<v Speaker 3>And remember, police do start to explore and examine Rodriguez

615
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:16.119
<v Speaker 3>as someone who's a person of interest, So do we

616
00:31:16.279 --> 00:31:20.240
<v Speaker 3>know if they ever investigated or went in and explored

617
00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:23.440
<v Speaker 3>the locksmith shop. Did they go in and look at

618
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:26.119
<v Speaker 3>vehicles of his and do any kind of luminol testing

619
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:28.720
<v Speaker 3>or look for evidence or find anything of theirs. I

620
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:32.119
<v Speaker 3>don't think they did. But remember it's weeks later that

621
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:35.000
<v Speaker 3>we're starting to get all this information about Rodriguez, So

622
00:31:35.920 --> 00:31:37.960
<v Speaker 3>I I don't know. I sit there and I think, well,

623
00:31:37.960 --> 00:31:42.480
<v Speaker 3>if police had immediately known, could he have maybe not

624
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:44.839
<v Speaker 3>been able to dispose of something that would have linked him.

625
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:48.119
<v Speaker 3>But once they identified him, did they go and start

626
00:31:48.160 --> 00:31:51.880
<v Speaker 3>to investigate and explore spaces that he could have possibly

627
00:31:52.079 --> 00:31:53.400
<v Speaker 3>done something to them?

628
00:31:54.039 --> 00:31:56.680
<v Speaker 2>I think they did. They did use cadab or sniffing

629
00:31:56.720 --> 00:31:59.640
<v Speaker 2>dogs and tore up the flooring in Rodriguez's locksmith shop,

630
00:31:59.640 --> 00:32:02.039
<v Speaker 2>but this didn't take place until I think over a

631
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:04.960
<v Speaker 2>year after the fact, when Rodriguez was arrested on the

632
00:32:04.960 --> 00:32:07.359
<v Speaker 2>fraud charges. So they didn't get to do it immediately.

633
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:10.079
<v Speaker 2>So if there was any evidence there a foul play,

634
00:32:10.119 --> 00:32:12.160
<v Speaker 2>he would have had ample time to dispose of it

635
00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:12.960
<v Speaker 2>and cover it up.

636
00:32:13.640 --> 00:32:16.240
<v Speaker 3>Oh the two people being killed and the blood that

637
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:18.960
<v Speaker 3>could have resulted from that, there's a lot of cases

638
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:21.359
<v Speaker 3>that years later they go and they pull flooring up,

639
00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:24.599
<v Speaker 3>and while the surface might be clean and you might

640
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:27.960
<v Speaker 3>not be able to get information, there is DNA and

641
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:32.440
<v Speaker 3>there is biological evidence that's on the undersides or through

642
00:32:32.559 --> 00:32:36.240
<v Speaker 3>the cracks of the floor. So it's kind of fascinating

643
00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:38.039
<v Speaker 3>to me that there was nothing if they went to

644
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:41.079
<v Speaker 3>that extent to tear the floors up, I would assume

645
00:32:41.119 --> 00:32:43.319
<v Speaker 3>it did not take place in the locksmith shop.

646
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:47.480
<v Speaker 1>But that's the assumption that the way that they were

647
00:32:47.599 --> 00:32:51.880
<v Speaker 1>killed was a way that drew blood. True could have

648
00:32:51.880 --> 00:32:55.680
<v Speaker 1>been blunt force trauma, could have been strangulation. There could

649
00:32:55.680 --> 00:32:58.880
<v Speaker 1>have been different ways in which they were killed, especially

650
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:01.960
<v Speaker 1>if there was two people in They wouldn't necessarily have

651
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:04.079
<v Speaker 1>to be a gun because you're right in the middle

652
00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:07.640
<v Speaker 1>of the city center, and if it's right by all

653
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.440
<v Speaker 1>of these units, then you run the risk of somebody

654
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:13.839
<v Speaker 1>hearing that gunfire unless you have a silencer or you

655
00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.960
<v Speaker 1>you make like a homemade silencer. Seems like it's very

656
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:19.519
<v Speaker 1>risky to use a gun, and even if it is

657
00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:21.799
<v Speaker 1>a head injury, like you can't guarantee there won't be

658
00:33:21.880 --> 00:33:24.480
<v Speaker 1>blood because often there is. But I think there are

659
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:27.799
<v Speaker 1>different scenarios where he could have carried this out at

660
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:30.559
<v Speaker 1>the locksmith's shop, and there might not have been very

661
00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:33.599
<v Speaker 1>much biological evidence that at the time they would have

662
00:33:33.640 --> 00:33:37.200
<v Speaker 1>been able to maybe gather, whereas today if they would

663
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.079
<v Speaker 1>have gone in and assessed it, it might have been

664
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:39.880
<v Speaker 1>a different story.

665
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:42.279
<v Speaker 3>Very true. And if there was blood, who's to say

666
00:33:42.279 --> 00:33:44.559
<v Speaker 3>they weren't on some area rug or something like that.

667
00:33:44.559 --> 00:33:48.039
<v Speaker 3>That or but if he grabbed him and broke one

668
00:33:48.079 --> 00:33:50.519
<v Speaker 3>of their necks, and you know who knows. You're right,

669
00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:54.960
<v Speaker 3>there's many many causes of death that would not have

670
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.160
<v Speaker 3>resulted in a substantial amount of blood. You're right. I

671
00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:00.519
<v Speaker 3>was thinking stabbing or shooting. But there's a million options

672
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:03.599
<v Speaker 3>that could have happened. And like you said, especially two people,

673
00:34:03.880 --> 00:34:06.079
<v Speaker 3>there wouldn't have had to be such a violent struggle

674
00:34:06.200 --> 00:34:11.360
<v Speaker 3>or movement of the bodies to incapacitate them or to

675
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:11.880
<v Speaker 3>kill them.

676
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:15.599
<v Speaker 2>So now we have to go back and explore the

677
00:34:15.639 --> 00:34:18.559
<v Speaker 2>second unsolved missing person's case in this story, and that's

678
00:34:18.599 --> 00:34:22.239
<v Speaker 2>the disappearance of David King. This case has gotten nowhere

679
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:25.400
<v Speaker 2>near as much publicity as the disappearances of Michael and Camden,

680
00:34:25.719 --> 00:34:29.079
<v Speaker 2>and there's even less evidence to suggest what happened. All

681
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:31.360
<v Speaker 2>we know is that King left his house in January

682
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:34.760
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen ninety one to go to work and subsequently disappeared,

683
00:34:35.079 --> 00:34:37.440
<v Speaker 2>but no one even attempted to file a missing person's

684
00:34:37.480 --> 00:34:40.920
<v Speaker 2>report until July the seventeenth of that year, when King's mother,

685
00:34:41.079 --> 00:34:44.320
<v Speaker 2>Emma Toppin, learned from his wife and children that they

686
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:47.280
<v Speaker 2>had not seen him in nearly six months. Back in

687
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:49.880
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety one, the New York Police Department had a

688
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:53.079
<v Speaker 2>policy that unless there was strong evidence that foul play

689
00:34:53.079 --> 00:34:55.760
<v Speaker 2>had taken place where the victim had a serious medical

690
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.400
<v Speaker 2>or mental condition, they cannot accept missing persons reports for

691
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:03.280
<v Speaker 2>anyone between the ages of seventeen and sixty five. This

692
00:35:03.440 --> 00:35:05.960
<v Speaker 2>policy has since changed, but I think it was likely

693
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:08.840
<v Speaker 2>in place because New York City had an insanely high

694
00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:11.960
<v Speaker 2>crime rate in nineteen ninety one, so the police just

695
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:14.960
<v Speaker 2>did not have the resources to search for every missing person.

696
00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:18.199
<v Speaker 2>And besides, since King was a co defendant and a

697
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:21.920
<v Speaker 2>thirteen million dollars civil lawsuit, it wasn't hard to imagine

698
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:24.719
<v Speaker 2>him running off on his own to escape his legal troubles,

699
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:28.039
<v Speaker 2>so his disappearance got zero media coverage at that time.

700
00:35:28.920 --> 00:35:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Of course, once Robert Rodriguez got linked to another missing

701
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:35.280
<v Speaker 2>person's case, six years later, King's case finally got a

702
00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:39.559
<v Speaker 2>proper investigation, but Emma Toppin did not hesitate to publicly

703
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:42.880
<v Speaker 2>express or frustration that it took the disappearance of two

704
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:46.239
<v Speaker 2>white people for the disappearance of her African American son

705
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:48.119
<v Speaker 2>to finally receive any attention.

706
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:51.840
<v Speaker 3>What is so sad is we've talked about this before.

707
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:55.760
<v Speaker 3>She is not alone in her frustration that we know

708
00:35:56.360 --> 00:35:59.320
<v Speaker 3>families of color that missing people of color that you

709
00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:04.360
<v Speaker 3>often do not have a media attention sometimes, you know,

710
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:07.079
<v Speaker 3>depending on where you are, the police attention is also

711
00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:11.480
<v Speaker 3>very limited. And so you look at poor Emma and

712
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:15.840
<v Speaker 3>she's saying, okay, now you're paying attention now that these

713
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:21.280
<v Speaker 3>two white kids are this white couple got has also disappeared.

714
00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:25.840
<v Speaker 3>Now my son matters. It's very, very heartbreaking because a

715
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:29.960
<v Speaker 3>human being is a human being. And I do believe

716
00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:34.920
<v Speaker 3>when you start looking at homicide investigations, homicide coverage that

717
00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:39.960
<v Speaker 3>things like wealth, race, gender, those things significantly matter in

718
00:36:40.039 --> 00:36:43.599
<v Speaker 3>the energy that is sometimes put forth. And it's horrific.

719
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:48.159
<v Speaker 3>But for Emma, she's saying, you know, at least someone's looking,

720
00:36:48.440 --> 00:36:52.480
<v Speaker 3>but why did it take so long? Incredibly complex grief there.

721
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:53.880
<v Speaker 3>It makes me very very sad.

722
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:58.199
<v Speaker 2>And it's also sad to think that if Rodriguez did

723
00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:00.880
<v Speaker 2>have something to do with King's disappearance they had investigated

724
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:03.400
<v Speaker 2>from the start, would things have turned out differently from

725
00:37:03.440 --> 00:37:06.639
<v Speaker 2>Michael and Canden, Like, would Rodriguez possibly have been arrested,

726
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:09.280
<v Speaker 2>have gone to prison before they went missing, and the

727
00:37:09.320 --> 00:37:12.719
<v Speaker 2>course of their lives would have been completely different exactly.

728
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:14.440
<v Speaker 3>And when you look at the way the media and

729
00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:18.519
<v Speaker 3>law enforcement and the community also puts value or a

730
00:37:18.599 --> 00:37:21.719
<v Speaker 3>lack of value on the victim, they aren't thinking that

731
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:25.280
<v Speaker 3>a victim also means there's an offender. And so whether

732
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:29.320
<v Speaker 3>you value that victim or not, when you start to

733
00:37:29.400 --> 00:37:31.599
<v Speaker 3>look at the bigger picture of what it means to

734
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:35.599
<v Speaker 3>not put the energy towards, not put media coverage towards

735
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:40.159
<v Speaker 3>every homicide, then you also say, oh, well, this offender

736
00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:44.000
<v Speaker 3>maybe isn't as important. There's someone who's capable of killing. So,

737
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:47.239
<v Speaker 3>like you said, Robin, if there is someone who is

738
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:50.679
<v Speaker 3>killed and their case is not viewed as a place

739
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:55.519
<v Speaker 3>to place resources, then there's also a community at risk

740
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.559
<v Speaker 3>because an offender's living amongst them. So it's a very

741
00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:02.639
<v Speaker 3>small mind reality that we live with in the criminal

742
00:38:02.719 --> 00:38:03.320
<v Speaker 3>justice field.

743
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:08.440
<v Speaker 1>The information about King's disappearance is fairly limited, but it

744
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:11.280
<v Speaker 1>sounds like Rodriguez had promised him a partnership in his

745
00:38:11.360 --> 00:38:15.199
<v Speaker 1>business after luring him away from his previous employer, and

746
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:19.199
<v Speaker 1>this failed to materialize. The two men were reportedly seen

747
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:22.159
<v Speaker 1>having an argument a short time before King went missing,

748
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.159
<v Speaker 1>so it's easy to assume that Rodriguez might have been

749
00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:28.239
<v Speaker 1>involved in what happened. In the long run. I guess

750
00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:32.480
<v Speaker 1>King's disappearance did benefit Rodriguez and his potential culpability in

751
00:38:32.519 --> 00:38:35.840
<v Speaker 1>the civil lawsuit, because even though King wound up being

752
00:38:35.960 --> 00:38:39.480
<v Speaker 1>ordered to pay ninety thousand dollars in damages, Rodriguez pretty

753
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:42.239
<v Speaker 1>much got off scot free by pinky swearing that he

754
00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:45.840
<v Speaker 1>would not use any of the confidential information that King

755
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:49.519
<v Speaker 1>gave him for his own personal gain. I guess technically

756
00:38:49.559 --> 00:38:52.599
<v Speaker 1>they could not prove that Rodriguez new King was providing

757
00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:55.480
<v Speaker 1>him with material that was stolen, But if King had

758
00:38:55.480 --> 00:38:59.320
<v Speaker 1>been around to provide testimony, things might have turned out differently.

759
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:03.679
<v Speaker 1>Perhaps Rodriguez would have had more liability. So this gave

760
00:39:03.760 --> 00:39:07.679
<v Speaker 1>Rodriguez a potential motive to make King disappear. But since

761
00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:11.480
<v Speaker 1>no investigation was performed until after Rodriguez hired an attorney,

762
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:14.880
<v Speaker 1>he was never formally interviewed about his potential role in

763
00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:18.360
<v Speaker 1>this case. Now, there have been some confusion about an

764
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:21.760
<v Speaker 1>unidentified John Doe who was found in the East River

765
00:39:21.840 --> 00:39:26.039
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen ninety one. He supposedly bore a striking resemblance

766
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:30.159
<v Speaker 1>to King, but it's unclear if DNA testing was ever performed.

767
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:34.039
<v Speaker 1>It's been reported that King's family refused to provide blood

768
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:37.519
<v Speaker 1>samples for DNA testing, but since his mother has always

769
00:39:37.519 --> 00:39:40.519
<v Speaker 1>been an outspoken advocate for him, I find it hard

770
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:44.360
<v Speaker 1>to imagine her not cooperating with this. The last media

771
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.079
<v Speaker 1>coverage I've seen about King is in an article from

772
00:39:47.119 --> 00:39:50.519
<v Speaker 1>Newsday in August of two thousand and four, and since

773
00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:52.880
<v Speaker 1>it makes no mention of the John Doe, I can

774
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:54.119
<v Speaker 1>only assume that he was.

775
00:39:54.079 --> 00:39:54.760
<v Speaker 3>Not a match.

776
00:39:55.719 --> 00:39:58.400
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like they were unable to determine the exact

777
00:39:58.440 --> 00:40:02.519
<v Speaker 1>cause of death for the decedent. So even so, even

778
00:40:02.559 --> 00:40:05.320
<v Speaker 1>if it was so, even if it was King, that

779
00:40:05.440 --> 00:40:08.559
<v Speaker 1>doesn't necessarily mean he was murdered. For all we know,

780
00:40:08.840 --> 00:40:11.239
<v Speaker 1>King may have been overcome by the stress of the

781
00:40:11.280 --> 00:40:14.239
<v Speaker 1>civil lawsuit and decided to take his own life by

782
00:40:14.320 --> 00:40:17.360
<v Speaker 1>jumping off the bridge. Into the East River. With so

783
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:21.280
<v Speaker 1>little information, it's tough to make a conclusive determination about

784
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:22.159
<v Speaker 1>what happened to King.

785
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:25.599
<v Speaker 3>So this is the DNA testing that we were talking

786
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:28.519
<v Speaker 3>about last time, that they were hoping it would match King,

787
00:40:28.559 --> 00:40:32.719
<v Speaker 3>but it resulted in an inconclusive result. Is that correct?

788
00:40:33.320 --> 00:40:35.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Like, there are differing sources, one that says that

789
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:38.719
<v Speaker 2>the results were inconclusive, and other sources say that his

790
00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:42.440
<v Speaker 2>family refused to provide their own blood for a comparison.

791
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:44.440
<v Speaker 2>But like I said, I find that hard to believe.

792
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:47.360
<v Speaker 2>Given how outspoken his mother was for him, I think

793
00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:49.639
<v Speaker 2>she would have been more than happy to provide her DNA.

794
00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:52.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, no way. If she's if she's strong enough to

795
00:40:52.760 --> 00:40:55.119
<v Speaker 3>stand there and say, hey, you didn't investigate my son's

796
00:40:55.119 --> 00:40:58.920
<v Speaker 3>investigation or my son's disappearance until these two other people

797
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:03.039
<v Speaker 3>went missing, and she's willing to be vocal, she's desperate

798
00:41:03.079 --> 00:41:06.159
<v Speaker 3>to know what happened to her son. I will move mountains,

799
00:41:06.239 --> 00:41:08.679
<v Speaker 3>and I guarantee you everyone else in that family looked

800
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:11.800
<v Speaker 3>at her and said she deserved to know what happened

801
00:41:11.800 --> 00:41:14.239
<v Speaker 3>to him, And so I cannot imagine that everyone in

802
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:17.360
<v Speaker 3>his lineage would have said no way. And so it

803
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:19.760
<v Speaker 3>is very interesting when you look at the idea that

804
00:41:19.800 --> 00:41:24.199
<v Speaker 3>there was a deceased individual that they thought possibly could

805
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:29.360
<v Speaker 3>be King, there's inconclusive evidence of who this person is,

806
00:41:29.440 --> 00:41:32.960
<v Speaker 3>so there if that's true, and that is the ultimate outcome,

807
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:37.559
<v Speaker 3>there is a small percentage that he could be King,

808
00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:41.000
<v Speaker 3>but we just don't know that. It's also possible it's

809
00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:45.000
<v Speaker 3>not King, and that his body it has never been discovered,

810
00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:48.440
<v Speaker 3>And so is it possibly he took his own life? Absolutely?

811
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:51.519
<v Speaker 3>Is it possible he was murdyreed? Absolutely? Is it possible

812
00:41:51.559 --> 00:41:55.079
<v Speaker 3>something else happened. Anything's possible when you don't have an answer.

813
00:41:55.159 --> 00:42:00.400
<v Speaker 3>So while it looks like King needed to disappear, either

814
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:06.159
<v Speaker 3>for Rodriguez or to avoid his own criminal charges in

815
00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:09.280
<v Speaker 3>those kinds of things, I think this is a very

816
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:14.400
<v Speaker 3>very difficult case to look at because we simply have

817
00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:18.440
<v Speaker 3>zero information. There's a motive for him to disappear on

818
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:20.360
<v Speaker 3>his own and there's a motive to get rid of him,

819
00:42:20.960 --> 00:42:24.880
<v Speaker 3>but we have no evidence of which way that went.

820
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:30.000
<v Speaker 3>So again, for Rodriguez, looks like neon signs pointing to him,

821
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:33.280
<v Speaker 3>But is her responsible? Is it possible for someone to

822
00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:35.480
<v Speaker 3>have that bad of luck that you are a criminal,

823
00:42:35.480 --> 00:42:38.880
<v Speaker 3>but you're not a murderer. You seem to be associated

824
00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:42.199
<v Speaker 3>with these people that go missing. It's so illogical to

825
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:45.199
<v Speaker 3>think that someone could have that bad of luck, But

826
00:42:46.039 --> 00:42:47.760
<v Speaker 3>that is a possible outcome.

827
00:42:48.840 --> 00:42:51.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's the thing. I mean, he looks awfully suspicious,

828
00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:53.960
<v Speaker 2>but they just don't have any hard evidence of foul play.

829
00:42:54.000 --> 00:42:57.000
<v Speaker 2>And well, it seems unlikely that three separate people at

830
00:42:57.000 --> 00:43:01.320
<v Speaker 2>different time periods could go missing under his wall. They've

831
00:43:01.360 --> 00:43:03.920
<v Speaker 2>just never been able to prove that he actually was

832
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:08.079
<v Speaker 2>personally involved. All that being said, it still seems like

833
00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:11.360
<v Speaker 2>quite a coincidence that Rodriguez would be linked to otherwise

834
00:43:11.440 --> 00:43:15.760
<v Speaker 2>completely unrelated missing persons cases. I think the key difference

835
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:17.840
<v Speaker 2>between them is that we know for a fact that

836
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:21.679
<v Speaker 2>Rodriguez and King colluded together to do unethical things, so

837
00:43:21.840 --> 00:43:24.440
<v Speaker 2>King might have known some incriminating information which put his

838
00:43:24.480 --> 00:43:26.960
<v Speaker 2>life in danger. And what we also know for a

839
00:43:27.000 --> 00:43:29.679
<v Speaker 2>fact that Rodriguez was doing a ton of illegal things

840
00:43:29.719 --> 00:43:32.679
<v Speaker 2>at the time Michael and Camden went missing. We don't

841
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:35.480
<v Speaker 2>know if they knew anything about that. But if the

842
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:38.800
<v Speaker 2>couple did learn something incriminating and Rodriguez decided to get

843
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:42.440
<v Speaker 2>rid of them, how would these events have unfolded? Well,

844
00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.320
<v Speaker 2>One detail about this case which I've always found interesting

845
00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:49.280
<v Speaker 2>is this cash of licensed guns, which Rodriguez supposedly owned

846
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:53.239
<v Speaker 2>and could not be accounted for. As you recall, Rodriguez

847
00:43:53.280 --> 00:43:55.679
<v Speaker 2>was originally going to be paroled two years before his

848
00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:59.239
<v Speaker 2>scheduled release date, but the parole Board changed their minds

849
00:43:59.400 --> 00:44:02.199
<v Speaker 2>when the question Rodriguez about these guns, and he was

850
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:05.679
<v Speaker 2>unable to provide conclusive answers about what happened to them.

851
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:08.440
<v Speaker 2>In fact, it's been reported that Rodriguez could have received

852
00:44:08.480 --> 00:44:11.000
<v Speaker 2>a lighter sense than two to six years if he

853
00:44:11.079 --> 00:44:13.679
<v Speaker 2>had turned in these guns at the time he pled guilty,

854
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:16.840
<v Speaker 2>but he never did. Now, I think the only reason

855
00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:20.119
<v Speaker 2>this questioning even took place was because the Board's decision

856
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:23.960
<v Speaker 2>to parole Rodriguez was met with considerable backlash, and they

857
00:44:24.039 --> 00:44:26.480
<v Speaker 2>probably were looking for any loophole they could find to

858
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:30.519
<v Speaker 2>reverse their decision without admitting me had screwed up. Given

859
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:32.719
<v Speaker 2>that a number of years had passed, I guess it's

860
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:36.440
<v Speaker 2>possible that Rodriguez legitimately had no idea where the guns were,

861
00:44:36.840 --> 00:44:39.559
<v Speaker 2>but he was apparently quite a vasive with his answers,

862
00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:42.440
<v Speaker 2>and to me, the biggest red flag is that he

863
00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:47.000
<v Speaker 2>invoked his fifth Amendment privilege to avoid self incrimination. I mean,

864
00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:49.679
<v Speaker 2>pleading the fifth can be a necessary tactic when you're

865
00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:52.960
<v Speaker 2>questioned under oath in a courtroom. But this is honestly

866
00:44:53.039 --> 00:44:55.760
<v Speaker 2>the first time I've ever heard of anyone pleading the

867
00:44:55.880 --> 00:44:59.719
<v Speaker 2>fifth at a parole hearing. Parole boards expect inmates to

868
00:44:59.719 --> 00:45:02.840
<v Speaker 2>be on honest and take accountability for their actions. But

869
00:45:02.920 --> 00:45:05.400
<v Speaker 2>if you decline to answer questions on the grounds of

870
00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:08.760
<v Speaker 2>self incrimination, that comes across like you have something to

871
00:45:08.800 --> 00:45:12.159
<v Speaker 2>add and pretty much guarantees you're not getting out of prison.

872
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:15.760
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely. This is why when we talk about cases of

873
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:18.119
<v Speaker 3>wrongful convictions and there's people who are in prison who

874
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:20.119
<v Speaker 3>are here, I didn't do it, I didn't do it,

875
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:23.320
<v Speaker 3>and they are up for parole and they say, guys,

876
00:45:23.440 --> 00:45:26.039
<v Speaker 3>I didn't do this, like I need my name cleared

877
00:45:26.039 --> 00:45:29.360
<v Speaker 3>because I didn't do it. A parole board says, if

878
00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:31.960
<v Speaker 3>you can't take accountability for why you're here, then clearly

879
00:45:31.960 --> 00:45:35.119
<v Speaker 3>you're not remorseful, and clearly you can't be released. So

880
00:45:35.400 --> 00:45:38.400
<v Speaker 3>then not only do you have an offender sitting there

881
00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:41.920
<v Speaker 3>saying you know, I didn't do this, or well that's

882
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.559
<v Speaker 3>not how it happened. No, this man is saying I

883
00:45:44.639 --> 00:45:48.000
<v Speaker 3>will not answer your questions because I might incriminate myself.

884
00:45:48.320 --> 00:45:52.119
<v Speaker 3>If you're worried about incriminating yourself, you clearly have other

885
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.480
<v Speaker 3>issues going on and you need to stay behind bars.

886
00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:59.119
<v Speaker 3>Very very fascinating that this person would have a collection

887
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:03.320
<v Speaker 3>of guns, cannot account for them, cannot provide information about them,

888
00:46:03.880 --> 00:46:07.039
<v Speaker 3>and there's a possibility that three people are missing as

889
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:11.320
<v Speaker 3>a result of your actions. Very very interesting. I've never heard,

890
00:46:11.360 --> 00:46:13.199
<v Speaker 3>like you said, I've never heard of a parole board

891
00:46:13.719 --> 00:46:16.039
<v Speaker 3>interviewing someone that they're planning to release back into the

892
00:46:16.079 --> 00:46:18.320
<v Speaker 3>community who says, ah, I can't answer your questions, I

893
00:46:18.320 --> 00:46:20.760
<v Speaker 3>plead the fifth. Normally, you're begging for them to see

894
00:46:20.760 --> 00:46:23.639
<v Speaker 3>you as a human, to see you as someone who's thoughtful,

895
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:26.719
<v Speaker 3>who's going to be an excellent, contributing member of society,

896
00:46:27.039 --> 00:46:30.960
<v Speaker 3>who is no longer a risk. He again is making

897
00:46:31.280 --> 00:46:35.480
<v Speaker 3>horrific decisions as far as drawing attention to the type

898
00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:36.320
<v Speaker 3>of man that he is.

899
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:40.960
<v Speaker 1>So this makes me wonder why did Rodriguez want to

900
00:46:41.000 --> 00:46:44.280
<v Speaker 1>avoid talking about this cash of guns. So in spite

901
00:46:44.280 --> 00:46:46.840
<v Speaker 1>of his financial crimes, it doesn't sound like he had

902
00:46:46.920 --> 00:46:50.119
<v Speaker 1>any known history of violence in his background, So could

903
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:52.360
<v Speaker 1>one of these guns have been used as a murder weapon.

904
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:55.639
<v Speaker 1>If he shot someone and disposed of the gun, then

905
00:46:55.639 --> 00:46:57.880
<v Speaker 1>it would be very difficult for him to explain what

906
00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:00.880
<v Speaker 1>happened to it and could account for why he elected

907
00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:04.039
<v Speaker 1>to plead the fifth Even if this ruined his chance

908
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:06.119
<v Speaker 1>as a parole and meant that he would have to

909
00:47:06.119 --> 00:47:09.599
<v Speaker 1>serve two more years in prison for fraud, that's still

910
00:47:09.639 --> 00:47:11.960
<v Speaker 1>preferable to spending the rest of your life in prison

911
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:15.039
<v Speaker 1>for murder. But I must provide a disclaimer about this

912
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:18.039
<v Speaker 1>detail about the guns, that it is nothing more than

913
00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:21.440
<v Speaker 1>speculation on Robin's part when he initially did his trail

914
00:47:21.480 --> 00:47:24.079
<v Speaker 1>and Cold episode. And we both still have issues with

915
00:47:24.119 --> 00:47:27.280
<v Speaker 1>the idea that Rodriguez could have shot Michael and Camden

916
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:32.079
<v Speaker 1>inside the apartment building without anybody hearing anything. So we

917
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:35.920
<v Speaker 1>know that all of Rodriguez's financial crimes were eventually uncovered

918
00:47:35.960 --> 00:47:38.960
<v Speaker 1>because he got himself in way over his head. So

919
00:47:39.079 --> 00:47:41.559
<v Speaker 1>that's why you have to wonder if he was capable

920
00:47:41.599 --> 00:47:44.679
<v Speaker 1>of getting away with the perfect murder without leaving any

921
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:49.000
<v Speaker 1>incriminating evidence behind. Anyway, as far as we can tell,

922
00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.000
<v Speaker 1>Robert Rodriguez is still alive today at the age of

923
00:47:52.039 --> 00:47:55.760
<v Speaker 1>eighty four, so if he really was responsible for these crimes,

924
00:47:55.880 --> 00:47:59.440
<v Speaker 1>then the clock is ticking to uncover evidence against him.

925
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:03.679
<v Speaker 1>There's my chance. Rodriguez's main motivation for not cooperating with

926
00:48:03.719 --> 00:48:08.199
<v Speaker 1>the investigation into Michael and Camden's disappearances was because he

927
00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:11.800
<v Speaker 1>was afraid of his financial crimes being uncovered. Well, that

928
00:48:11.880 --> 00:48:14.719
<v Speaker 1>wound up happening anyway, and he served his time in prison.

929
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:18.400
<v Speaker 1>If he truly has nothing left to hide, then I

930
00:48:18.480 --> 00:48:20.800
<v Speaker 1>wish that he would finally cooperate and speak to the

931
00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:24.119
<v Speaker 1>police about what he knows. But then again, even if

932
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:26.719
<v Speaker 1>he's innocent in this case, there may still be things

933
00:48:26.719 --> 00:48:29.440
<v Speaker 1>about the disappearance of David King which he does not

934
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:31.679
<v Speaker 1>want to discuss absolutely.

935
00:48:31.800 --> 00:48:35.039
<v Speaker 3>And what's really interesting is how would they prove otherwise

936
00:48:35.079 --> 00:48:38.599
<v Speaker 3>if you said, you know, I honestly wasn't the most

937
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:41.599
<v Speaker 3>responsible gun owner. Yes, I have a collection of guns.

938
00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:44.280
<v Speaker 3>Because I have a collection of guns, I don't really

939
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:46.039
<v Speaker 3>keep track of where they are and what I'm doing

940
00:48:46.119 --> 00:48:49.920
<v Speaker 3>with them. So I remember that I have a couple

941
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.639
<v Speaker 3>that are in a safe, I have a couple that

942
00:48:52.679 --> 00:48:57.119
<v Speaker 3>are under the bed. But for some reason I remember

943
00:48:57.199 --> 00:48:59.440
<v Speaker 3>that there's several that I just can't account for. And

944
00:48:59.480 --> 00:49:01.920
<v Speaker 3>I was your responsible. I mean, like, they already know

945
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:04.400
<v Speaker 3>you have them and where are they? So what if

946
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:08.400
<v Speaker 3>you were just you know, oh, I recognized a couple

947
00:49:08.400 --> 00:49:10.840
<v Speaker 3>of them were missing. I used to loan him out

948
00:49:10.880 --> 00:49:13.679
<v Speaker 3>to friends, and I have zero idea who borrowed that

949
00:49:13.800 --> 00:49:18.079
<v Speaker 3>weapon from me? I lost them. I don't know, Like,

950
00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:20.360
<v Speaker 3>why would you plead the fifth? Why not just make

951
00:49:20.440 --> 00:49:22.480
<v Speaker 3>up a story? How could they disprove that?

952
00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:25.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is just what's so weird to me that

953
00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:27.599
<v Speaker 2>he didn't even attempt to make up a lie or

954
00:49:27.719 --> 00:49:29.800
<v Speaker 2>just say that he lost him or he had no idea.

955
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:32.480
<v Speaker 2>He flat up pleads the fifth, which is the most

956
00:49:32.519 --> 00:49:36.119
<v Speaker 2>suspicious looking thing you could do, which kind of indicates

957
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:38.360
<v Speaker 2>to me that there's some sort of desperation at play

958
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:40.760
<v Speaker 2>there and he really really doesn't want anyone finding out

959
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:45.320
<v Speaker 2>where those guns could be. So. As for Laurie Sylvia,

960
00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:47.480
<v Speaker 2>at the time her daughter went missing, she was an

961
00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:50.119
<v Speaker 2>advocate for the disabled and would pretty much become the

962
00:49:50.159 --> 00:49:53.599
<v Speaker 2>official advocate for Camden and Michael. This is not the

963
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:56.480
<v Speaker 2>only family tragedy that Laurie has experienced, as two of

964
00:49:56.480 --> 00:49:58.679
<v Speaker 2>her uncles vanished and were lost at sea during the

965
00:49:58.760 --> 00:50:02.559
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifties and in January of twenty fourteen, she lost

966
00:50:02.559 --> 00:50:05.039
<v Speaker 2>her forty eight year old son, Matthew, when he passed

967
00:50:05.079 --> 00:50:08.480
<v Speaker 2>away after a long battle with pancreatis. While Laurie is

968
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:11.000
<v Speaker 2>still with us today, she is also in her mid eighties,

969
00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:13.159
<v Speaker 2>so it would be nice if she finally received some

970
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:16.239
<v Speaker 2>answers about what happened to her daughter. So, if you

971
00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:19.079
<v Speaker 2>happen to have any information on the disappearances of Michael

972
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:22.760
<v Speaker 2>Sullivan and Camden Sylvia, as well as the unsolved disappearance

973
00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:25.880
<v Speaker 2>of David King, please call the New York Police Department

974
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:29.480
<v Speaker 2>at six four six six one zero six nine one four.

975
00:50:30.000 --> 00:50:33.360
<v Speaker 2>That's six four six six one zero six nine one four,

976
00:50:34.079 --> 00:50:36.719
<v Speaker 2>Jules Ashley, any final thoughts in this case.

977
00:50:37.519 --> 00:50:41.239
<v Speaker 3>Disappearances and missing people are some of the most interesting

978
00:50:41.320 --> 00:50:44.880
<v Speaker 3>and heartbreaking cases to me because it's as if someone

979
00:50:45.679 --> 00:50:49.039
<v Speaker 3>just disappeared into thin air and no one knows what

980
00:50:49.119 --> 00:50:52.880
<v Speaker 3>happened to them. And yet you can't just have a

981
00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:58.400
<v Speaker 3>body evaporate that those three people, at some point their

982
00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:03.920
<v Speaker 3>body should surface, should be found, they somebody should know

983
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:06.719
<v Speaker 3>what happened to them. Right. It just doesn't really cognitively

984
00:51:06.760 --> 00:51:10.920
<v Speaker 3>make sense to me that David King up had disappeared

985
00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:14.360
<v Speaker 3>never to be seen again. Camden and Michael up A disappeared,

986
00:51:14.519 --> 00:51:17.320
<v Speaker 3>never to be seen again. So in these cases, it's

987
00:51:17.320 --> 00:51:19.679
<v Speaker 3>this constant prayer of mine that like, Okay, one day,

988
00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:22.920
<v Speaker 3>remains are going to be discovered. These families are going

989
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:24.960
<v Speaker 3>to get answers, and while they might not ever know

990
00:51:25.000 --> 00:51:27.960
<v Speaker 3>who the perpetrator was, they would at least have their

991
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:31.159
<v Speaker 3>loved one's remains back to kind of close the idea

992
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:34.000
<v Speaker 3>that my loved one matters and I want to know

993
00:51:34.119 --> 00:51:37.199
<v Speaker 3>that they are now safely in a single location and

994
00:51:37.239 --> 00:51:39.880
<v Speaker 3>I know where they are, like that just peace of mind.

995
00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:44.440
<v Speaker 3>Are these likely to be solved and prosecuted. Probably not.

996
00:51:44.719 --> 00:51:47.119
<v Speaker 3>But again, if there was just this ability to have

997
00:51:47.400 --> 00:51:51.280
<v Speaker 3>the remains back where people like Glory and these families

998
00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:55.199
<v Speaker 3>would say, my baby is is, I know where she

999
00:51:55.320 --> 00:51:57.639
<v Speaker 3>is now. I have control over the location of her

1000
00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:00.920
<v Speaker 3>body and I don't have to wonder what else is happening.

1001
00:52:01.159 --> 00:52:04.880
<v Speaker 3>I have her back to me as a mother. That's

1002
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:07.719
<v Speaker 3>something that would be incredibly important. That the idea of

1003
00:52:07.760 --> 00:52:10.119
<v Speaker 3>her just disappearing into thin air is one of the

1004
00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:14.239
<v Speaker 3>most harmful possibilities. I just need her back, no matter

1005
00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:18.159
<v Speaker 3>what form that's in. And so again, how does a

1006
00:52:18.159 --> 00:52:21.199
<v Speaker 3>body just disappear. It can happen. I mean, there are

1007
00:52:21.199 --> 00:52:25.280
<v Speaker 3>methods to make a body disintegrate and disappear, but is

1008
00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:27.719
<v Speaker 3>that likely, Like we said, to what extent in the

1009
00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:30.239
<v Speaker 3>middle of Manhattan can you just get rid of things?

1010
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:35.440
<v Speaker 3>How easy is it to eliminate one, two, or maybe

1011
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:39.199
<v Speaker 3>even three people and no one knows, there's no evidence,

1012
00:52:39.239 --> 00:52:44.519
<v Speaker 3>there's no trail left behind. So missing persons just so tragic,

1013
00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:47.880
<v Speaker 3>and I'm my prayer would be at the minimum that

1014
00:52:48.119 --> 00:52:50.880
<v Speaker 3>these families would be able to one day have their

1015
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:53.199
<v Speaker 3>loved ones and have the control over their remains.

1016
00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:58.559
<v Speaker 1>I totally agree, and I personally think that Rodriguez holds

1017
00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:01.719
<v Speaker 1>the key to where where the bodies are. And I

1018
00:53:01.719 --> 00:53:04.760
<v Speaker 1>think that this is like the case of a hidden

1019
00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:08.679
<v Speaker 1>variable homicide, and that there's so many variables that we

1020
00:53:08.920 --> 00:53:11.480
<v Speaker 1>just aren't aware of, Like was there another person? It

1021
00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:13.679
<v Speaker 1>could have been a family member, because like Robin said,

1022
00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:17.519
<v Speaker 1>the family members weren't cooperative, and so you've got to

1023
00:53:17.599 --> 00:53:22.159
<v Speaker 1>wonder why when you've got two missing people and they're

1024
00:53:22.199 --> 00:53:25.800
<v Speaker 1>not trying to help. It's like either they know that

1025
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:28.519
<v Speaker 1>he's doing all the fraud stuff and they're just trying

1026
00:53:28.559 --> 00:53:30.920
<v Speaker 1>not to get involved, or they are scared of him

1027
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:34.440
<v Speaker 1>in some capacity, or they're complicit in some way. And

1028
00:53:34.559 --> 00:53:39.400
<v Speaker 1>I think that because Manhattan is this, you know, small island,

1029
00:53:39.519 --> 00:53:42.920
<v Speaker 1>and it's so populated, everybody's basically on top of each other,

1030
00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:46.599
<v Speaker 1>that it's so hard to envision how somebody could carry

1031
00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:49.480
<v Speaker 1>this out. But if there was a second person, and

1032
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.159
<v Speaker 1>if he did have a van from his locksmith's shop,

1033
00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:54.559
<v Speaker 1>there would And Ashley had mentioned like what if there

1034
00:53:54.599 --> 00:53:56.559
<v Speaker 1>was an area rug on the ground, what if he

1035
00:53:56.960 --> 00:54:00.199
<v Speaker 1>put their bodies in this van, had the help of somebody,

1036
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:02.679
<v Speaker 1>and he drove them to New Jersey. I just think

1037
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:05.920
<v Speaker 1>of Rex Hureman, the Long Island serial killer, and how

1038
00:54:06.039 --> 00:54:09.840
<v Speaker 1>long the bodies of those women are. All those individuals

1039
00:54:09.880 --> 00:54:13.599
<v Speaker 1>were there. They were only discovered because of Shannon Gilbert's

1040
00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:16.880
<v Speaker 1>disappearance and her call to nine one one, which was

1041
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:20.599
<v Speaker 1>very troubling, and so that kicked off a search which

1042
00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:24.199
<v Speaker 1>then those bodies were discovered. So it is my hope

1043
00:54:24.679 --> 00:54:28.840
<v Speaker 1>that Michael and Camden will be discovered at some point

1044
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:31.960
<v Speaker 1>and King as well, and that perhaps there is a

1045
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:36.079
<v Speaker 1>dumping ground or an area where Rodriguez is disposed of

1046
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:40.400
<v Speaker 1>these bodies, because in my gut, I truly believe that

1047
00:54:40.480 --> 00:54:43.159
<v Speaker 1>he's the one that holds the key to the answers

1048
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:45.800
<v Speaker 1>that the families deserve at this point. And the fact

1049
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:49.960
<v Speaker 1>that he's like eighty five, now that is so wild

1050
00:54:50.039 --> 00:54:53.599
<v Speaker 1>to me, because he's gone his whole life with as

1051
00:54:53.639 --> 00:54:56.159
<v Speaker 1>far as we know, not confessing to anybody, or at

1052
00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:59.639
<v Speaker 1>least nobody that would come forward, and so we're running

1053
00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:01.360
<v Speaker 1>out a time. I'm here, this is like a Tommy

1054
00:55:01.440 --> 00:55:03.880
<v Speaker 1>Zeger thing, not in that he's innocent, just in that

1055
00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:06.599
<v Speaker 1>he's at an advanced age, and so if we want

1056
00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:08.800
<v Speaker 1>a resolution, it's going to need to be soon.

1057
00:55:10.360 --> 00:55:12.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I actually talked about these missing persons cases in

1058
00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.400
<v Speaker 2>which it seems like the victim has just vanished into

1059
00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:17.679
<v Speaker 2>thin air, and this is definitely an example of one

1060
00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:20.960
<v Speaker 2>of them. And it's particularly frustrating in the cases where

1061
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:24.039
<v Speaker 2>you have a very compelling suspect, but you just don't

1062
00:55:24.079 --> 00:55:27.320
<v Speaker 2>have any evidence of foul play or any indication what

1063
00:55:27.480 --> 00:55:29.360
<v Speaker 2>happened to the victims at all. I mean, it would

1064
00:55:29.400 --> 00:55:32.280
<v Speaker 2>be one thing if Michael and Cannon were last seen

1065
00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:34.679
<v Speaker 2>going to a meeting with Robert Rodriguez and then they

1066
00:55:34.800 --> 00:55:37.920
<v Speaker 2>just disappeared, But we don't even have a real pinpoint

1067
00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:40.039
<v Speaker 2>moment of the last time they were seen to be alive.

1068
00:55:40.119 --> 00:55:42.960
<v Speaker 2>We know they return to their apartment left at some point,

1069
00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:44.719
<v Speaker 2>but they don't know where they were going or what

1070
00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:47.280
<v Speaker 2>happened to them. And no one reported seeing or hearing

1071
00:55:47.320 --> 00:55:52.000
<v Speaker 2>anything unusual, no gunshots, no suspicious actions of like Rodriguez

1072
00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:55.199
<v Speaker 2>carrying something into a vehicle. So even though it is

1073
00:55:55.239 --> 00:55:58.519
<v Speaker 2>compelling to think that Rodriguez killed them because of this dispute,

1074
00:55:58.800 --> 00:56:02.480
<v Speaker 2>there's just no hard evidence that, and under normal circumstances,

1075
00:56:02.519 --> 00:56:04.719
<v Speaker 2>I might have been willing to give Rodriguez a break

1076
00:56:04.760 --> 00:56:07.199
<v Speaker 2>and think that, well, maybe he's acting this way because

1077
00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:09.519
<v Speaker 2>he was committing fraud on the side, that he had

1078
00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:11.840
<v Speaker 2>nothing to do with what happened to Michael and Camden.

1079
00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:14.480
<v Speaker 2>But then you learn the background with David King and

1080
00:56:14.519 --> 00:56:17.480
<v Speaker 2>how he conveniently went missing in the middle of a dispute,

1081
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:20.639
<v Speaker 2>and you're thinking, Wow, I don't think anyone is that unlucky, Like,

1082
00:56:20.800 --> 00:56:24.119
<v Speaker 2>it's be quite a coincidence if three people connected to

1083
00:56:24.159 --> 00:56:27.519
<v Speaker 2>this guy all happened to go missing under unrelated circumstances.

1084
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:30.360
<v Speaker 2>So he asked to be involved somehow. But if he was,

1085
00:56:30.440 --> 00:56:32.960
<v Speaker 2>he covered his tracks very well. And like we talked

1086
00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:36.159
<v Speaker 2>about how does he get rid of two people in

1087
00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:39.280
<v Speaker 2>downtown Manhattan from an apartment building in the middle of

1088
00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:42.519
<v Speaker 2>the day without attracting any attention. And this is why

1089
00:56:42.599 --> 00:56:44.800
<v Speaker 2>it's easy to believe that he might have had accomplices,

1090
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:48.960
<v Speaker 2>maybe business associates or family members who helped him dispose

1091
00:56:49.000 --> 00:56:51.840
<v Speaker 2>of the crime. And like you mentioned, he's now in

1092
00:56:51.880 --> 00:56:54.599
<v Speaker 2>his eighties, he doesn't have much time left. So I

1093
00:56:54.639 --> 00:56:57.079
<v Speaker 2>really hope that if he did do something, they can

1094
00:56:57.159 --> 00:57:01.199
<v Speaker 2>finally uncover some evidence and maybe finally find the victims'

1095
00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:04.360
<v Speaker 2>bodies and finally get a conclusive resolution, because, like we

1096
00:57:04.440 --> 00:57:07.800
<v Speaker 2>talked about, Lori, Sylvia has gone without answers for far

1097
00:57:07.880 --> 00:57:08.360
<v Speaker 2>too long.

1098
00:57:09.920 --> 00:57:11.400
<v Speaker 4>Robin, do you want to tell us a little bit

1099
00:57:11.400 --> 00:57:12.880
<v Speaker 4>about the Trail Went Cold Patreon?

1100
00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:15.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the Trail Cold Patreon has been around for three

1101
00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:19.800
<v Speaker 2>years now, and we offer these standard bonus features like

1102
00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:23.239
<v Speaker 2>early ad free episodes, and I also send out stickers

1103
00:57:23.280 --> 00:57:26.119
<v Speaker 2>and sign thank you cards to anyone who signs up

1104
00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:28.719
<v Speaker 2>with us on Patreon if you join our five dollars

1105
00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:32.840
<v Speaker 2>tier Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus episodes in

1106
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:36.039
<v Speaker 2>which I talk about cases which are not featured on

1107
00:57:36.079 --> 00:57:38.880
<v Speaker 2>The Trail Went Cold's original feed. So they're exclusive to

1108
00:57:38.920 --> 00:57:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Patreon and if you join our highest tier, Tier three,

1109
00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:44.840
<v Speaker 2>the ten dollars tier. One of the features we offer

1110
00:57:45.079 --> 00:57:49.519
<v Speaker 2>is a audio commentary track over classic episodes of Unsawved Mysteries,

1111
00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:52.760
<v Speaker 2>where you can download an audio file and then boot

1112
00:57:52.840 --> 00:57:56.039
<v Speaker 2>up the original Unsolved Mysteries episode on Amazon Prime or

1113
00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:59.440
<v Speaker 2>YouTube and play it with my audio commentary playing in

1114
00:57:59.480 --> 00:58:02.599
<v Speaker 2>the background, where I just provide trivia and factoids about

1115
00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:06.079
<v Speaker 2>the cases featured in this episode. And incidentally, the very

1116
00:58:06.079 --> 00:58:08.920
<v Speaker 2>first episode that I did a commentary track over was

1117
00:58:08.960 --> 00:58:11.719
<v Speaker 2>the episode featuring this case. So if you want to

1118
00:58:11.760 --> 00:58:14.480
<v Speaker 2>download a commentary track in which I make more smart

1119
00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:17.519
<v Speaker 2>ass remarks about Jewel Kaylor, then be sure to join

1120
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:18.320
<v Speaker 2>Tier three.

1121
00:58:18.519 --> 00:58:20.039
<v Speaker 4>So I want to let you know a little bit

1122
00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:23.000
<v Speaker 4>about the Jewels and Nashty patreons. So there's early ad

1123
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:25.960
<v Speaker 4>free episodes of The Path Went Chili. We've got our

1124
00:58:25.960 --> 00:58:28.960
<v Speaker 4>Pathwent Chili mini's, which are always over an hour, so

1125
00:58:29.000 --> 00:58:31.119
<v Speaker 4>they're not very mini, but they're just too short to

1126
00:58:31.159 --> 00:58:34.079
<v Speaker 4>turn into a series, and we're really enjoying doing those.

1127
00:58:34.159 --> 00:58:36.280
<v Speaker 4>So we hope you'll check out those patreons.

1128
00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:37.800
<v Speaker 1>We'll link them in the show notes.

1129
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:40.199
<v Speaker 2>So I want to thank you all for listening, and

1130
00:58:40.320 --> 00:58:42.679
<v Speaker 2>any chance you have to share us on social media

1131
00:58:42.719 --> 00:58:45.719
<v Speaker 2>with a friend or to rate and review is greatly appreciated.

1132
00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:48.920
<v Speaker 2>You can email us at the Pathwentchili at gmail dot com.

1133
00:58:49.199 --> 00:58:51.840
<v Speaker 2>You can reach us on Twitter at the Pathwin. So

1134
00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:54.559
<v Speaker 2>until next time, be sure to bundle up because cold

1135
00:58:54.599 --> 00:58:57.039
<v Speaker 2>trails and chili pass call for warm clothing.

1136
00:58:57.280 --> 00:59:00.639
<v Speaker 1>Music by Paul Rich from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy