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<v Speaker 1>Tessy around. This is the seventy seven WABC Mini Test.

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<v Speaker 1>So our first guest.

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<v Speaker 2>Is someone who's had one of the most visible and

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<v Speaker 2>at times one of the most scrutinized jobs in American politics.

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<v Speaker 2>He is a political strategist, a communications professional. He's an author,

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<v Speaker 2>a commentator, and a commander in the US Navy Reserves,

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<v Speaker 2>as well as former White House Press secretary who literally

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<v Speaker 2>spent years at the center of some of the biggest

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<v Speaker 2>headlines in the country. He also has his own show

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<v Speaker 2>right here every Sunday morning at ten am, right here

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<v Speaker 2>at WABC, called Full Court with Sean Spicer. Okay, so,

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<v Speaker 2>Sean lots to talk about little time. You and I

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<v Speaker 2>were both in the fox hole when the Boss took

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<v Speaker 2>office in twenty seventeen, and back then it was absolute chaos.

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<v Speaker 2>You were out there air free single day, literally trying

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<v Speaker 2>to translate a hurricane into English. Now look at Trump

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<v Speaker 2>forty seven. You got Caroline Levit. She's out in front

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<v Speaker 2>throwing punches daily. Having lived that hell yourself. What's the

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<v Speaker 2>one mistake that you think she's making that you would

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<v Speaker 2>fix tomorrow?

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<v Speaker 3>Uh? Interesting, I didn't think you'd go in that direction.

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<v Speaker 3>I thought you'd ask me to.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, look, I actually think it's the opposite, which

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<v Speaker 3>is they've had the opportunity to see I mean, in

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<v Speaker 3>Caroline's case, four other press secretaries. I joked with Sarah,

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<v Speaker 3>my successor, all the time about this, like if you

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<v Speaker 3>knew now what you know, you knew then, what would

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<v Speaker 3>you have done differently? And I could spend an hour

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<v Speaker 3>talking to you, Michael, because again I'm answering this backwards

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<v Speaker 3>because you'll get this. Like I remember having a conversation

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<v Speaker 3>with then mister Trump, and he said to me, I'm

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<v Speaker 3>going to be the most traditional president ever sewn. And

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<v Speaker 3>I go, oh, perfect, I know how to do tell.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going to make life easy, right yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>And he was just like, don't worry. This is going

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<v Speaker 3>to be so traditional. It's going to be awesome. And

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<v Speaker 3>I was like, oh, okay, I had served in the

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<v Speaker 3>Bush White House. I knew, like I'd seen my predecessors

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<v Speaker 3>in my position, like Ari Fleischer and Dana and Tony

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<v Speaker 3>Snow And I was like, I know how to do that, Like,

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<v Speaker 3>if you want to be tradition. What I don't think

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<v Speaker 3>I appreciated that Caroline does is how non traditional he is.

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<v Speaker 3>He's willing to break down norms, do it his way.

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<v Speaker 3>He's willing to punch back in a way that nobody

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<v Speaker 3>ever has. And I don't think I ever thought, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>I've got the green light to just go out and

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<v Speaker 3>you know verbally just to be clear, like kind of

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<v Speaker 3>verbally punch somebody in the face and push back the

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<v Speaker 3>way that nobody else in history has done and that

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<v Speaker 3>Donald Trump does like every day.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think that the opposite is true.

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<v Speaker 3>I think Caroline has been able to see four people

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<v Speaker 3>go before her and say and also remember she served

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<v Speaker 3>in forty five under Keyley Mcananey, so she came into

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<v Speaker 3>this job with a level of preparedness that no one had.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, it's funny because when I watch Caroline Levitt

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<v Speaker 2>doing what she does, it reminds me, and I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>the quote to be exact, so I punched it up

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<v Speaker 2>here onto my phone. If the facts are against you,

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<v Speaker 2>argue the law. If the law is against you, argue

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<v Speaker 2>the facts. If the law and the facts are against you,

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<v Speaker 2>pound the table and yell like hell.

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<v Speaker 1>Now we see this every single day.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean we're watching them the podium, pounding their fist

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<v Speaker 2>on and on and on right. For example, look at

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<v Speaker 2>the absurdity that's going on right now with Janine Piro

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<v Speaker 2>and this reflecting pool.

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<v Speaker 1>You've heard me.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably a million times turned around and say it's complete nonsense.

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<v Speaker 2>This is a maintenance issue, not a reflection on Trump,

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<v Speaker 2>but it is a classic Trump's scenario where a contractor,

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<v Speaker 2>by the way happens all the time, watched a job right,

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<v Speaker 2>the lining peeled and in just instead of taking the

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<v Speaker 2>loss on this minor maintenance issue, the boss kind of

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<v Speaker 2>like demanded that there be a villain. Janine of course

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<v Speaker 2>dropped the charges because the facts they didn't hold up,

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<v Speaker 2>and instantly right he publicly claims that she choked and

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<v Speaker 2>folded like an umbrella. From a comms perspective, how do

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<v Speaker 2>you manage an administration where the press operation is literally

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<v Speaker 2>like forced to treat a freakin peeling pool liner like

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<v Speaker 2>it's some sort of a national security crisis just to

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<v Speaker 2>protect I don't know what you we'll call it ego.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, there's a few things to unpack there.

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<v Speaker 3>First of all, you're right, I mean, I got to

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<v Speaker 3>kick out of the fact that there are so many

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<v Speaker 3>issues of national importance that a CNN, for example, won't touch,

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<v Speaker 3>but yet they spent countless hours talking about paint peeling

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<v Speaker 3>in a reflecting pool. But it's a Donald Trumpet project,

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<v Speaker 3>so therefore merits rising to that level.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>But the one thing that I'll disagree with the analysis

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<v Speaker 3>on is I think there's two aspects of this.

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<v Speaker 1>Two things can be true at once.

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<v Speaker 3>There can be vandals that have done things, and there

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<v Speaker 3>can be a botched install installation. And I believe that

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<v Speaker 3>this is a case of that being true, meaning that

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<v Speaker 3>there are there is If you don't follow Emily Miller

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<v Speaker 3>on Instagram, she has documented this stuff like nothing else,

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<v Speaker 3>and she shows that there were cuts and there were things.

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<v Speaker 3>So I believe, based on just what I've watched, that

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<v Speaker 3>two things are true. There was probably some botched installation

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<v Speaker 3>aspects of this, and some people cut this where I

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<v Speaker 3>think Janine had some issues. And this is to your

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<v Speaker 3>point about the comms piece of this. When they got

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<v Speaker 3>this canoe dude, Olympic rower or canoe or whatever he is, yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>and they caught him, they rushed out and remember it

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<v Speaker 3>was Janine in the press conference, yes, who said this

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<v Speaker 3>was unacceptable.

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<v Speaker 1>He is guilty and dah dah, da da dah.

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<v Speaker 3>And so she owned it, and so if you're Donald Trump,

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<v Speaker 3>he goes, great, you you you just.

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<v Speaker 1>Made the case.

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<v Speaker 3>You said that this was van and then when she

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<v Speaker 3>walks it back and says we're dropping the case, I

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<v Speaker 3>think he felt like, wait a second. You My US

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<v Speaker 3>attorney for DC told me we had this guy dead

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<v Speaker 3>to rights and we're going to prosecute him. And now

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<v Speaker 3>you make me look like a fool because I got

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<v Speaker 3>behind you.

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<v Speaker 1>So there's a little bit of this that's it's not

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<v Speaker 1>a clean hit.

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<v Speaker 3>The other thing, Michael, and this is where your legal

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<v Speaker 3>expertise comes in that I don't have. I get Janine

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<v Speaker 3>at some point had to go in front of that

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<v Speaker 3>judge and she knew, like I listened to the rower, dudes,

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<v Speaker 3>lawyer i II is in and he was like, dude,

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<v Speaker 3>we had we had photographic evidence of what it looked

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<v Speaker 3>like the day before, the day aft. We could show

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<v Speaker 3>chronologically that there was some contractor error.

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<v Speaker 1>Blah blah blah.

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<v Speaker 3>Janine knew that, and so she knew that if I

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<v Speaker 3>go into court that the judge is gonna through discovery,

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<v Speaker 3>they're going to show the photographs and I can't look

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<v Speaker 3>like I'm lying, right because I'll get in trouble as

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<v Speaker 3>a federal as a as a prosecutor. But the question

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<v Speaker 3>I have is could they have just dropped the charges

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<v Speaker 3>and not sort of like she made the case that

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<v Speaker 3>he wasn't guilty, like yep, introducing Burgham's stuff in the contract.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't.

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<v Speaker 3>If it were me, I would have done two things

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<v Speaker 3>very differently. Number One, I would have just tried to

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<v Speaker 3>do this much quieter, a twenty page filing where you

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<v Speaker 3>basically admit that you botched this probably wasn't the smartest thing. Two,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't get the sense, and you know this better

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<v Speaker 3>than anybody read him in I think he was shocked

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<v Speaker 3>when they dropped it and claimed that it was the

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<v Speaker 3>Interior Department not knowing the contractor. I think that they

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<v Speaker 3>need She should have gone to Trump. And again, I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know if you can legally do this.

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<v Speaker 1>This is why I'm can. But she's going to send him,

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<v Speaker 1>mister President tomorrow. I have to go to the judge.

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<v Speaker 3>Their team has discovery showing that the contractor admits.

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<v Speaker 1>Fault blah blah blah blah blah.

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<v Speaker 3>I in duty bound to share with the judge that

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<v Speaker 3>we know this and therefore this has to happen I

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<v Speaker 3>want you.

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<v Speaker 1>To know that, and so we're going to say the filing. Now.

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<v Speaker 3>In my experience, Trump would have said, here's what I

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<v Speaker 3>want you to say instead, can you say that? And

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<v Speaker 3>they might have gone back and forth, because I learned

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<v Speaker 3>that the hard way. Sometimes you say something he says,

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<v Speaker 3>to be my friend, he says, why did you say that?

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<v Speaker 1>That's not what I believe.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't get the sense that they read him in

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<v Speaker 3>on what they had to do, and.

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<v Speaker 1>That was a big no.

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<v Speaker 3>No.

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<v Speaker 1>I could have told you how that would have gone.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you and I both, so what my opinion is

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<v Speaker 2>what they should have probably done. And agreed with you

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<v Speaker 2>that they should have dropped the case. When you are

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<v Speaker 2>preparing for this, even after they had filed, the first

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<v Speaker 2>thing that they needed to do is to continue to

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<v Speaker 2>look at all of the documentation to ensure a victory.

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<v Speaker 2>Very much like what they did with John Bolton. They

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<v Speaker 2>knew they had Bolton dead to write, and so they

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<v Speaker 2>pursued it, and they will pursue it to the point

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<v Speaker 2>where he will probably, you know, either do some prison time,

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<v Speaker 2>war I don't know, maybe get off because of these

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<v Speaker 2>national security secrets.

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<v Speaker 1>Who knows.

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<v Speaker 2>But they got him dead to right, and they proved

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<v Speaker 2>what Trump was saying all along.

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<v Speaker 1>And this gets back to it.

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<v Speaker 3>By the way, this gets you're getting to my other point, right,

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<v Speaker 3>which is they know Emily Miller has documented vandalism.

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<v Speaker 1>What the media did was they ran with this.

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<v Speaker 3>Narrative when they dropped the charges, says Trump was wrong.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't believe that's true. I believe that they might

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<v Speaker 3>not have this guy dead to rights because he could

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<v Speaker 3>prove that he was. He was just looking or something.

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<v Speaker 3>But we do know Emily's video showed that there was vandalism.

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<v Speaker 3>The better message would be, we know the President's right,

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<v Speaker 3>there have been vandals that have done this in this

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<v Speaker 3>particular case.

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<v Speaker 1>We can't get him.

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<v Speaker 3>And therefore we're letting him off, but we are still discuits,

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<v Speaker 3>to your point, still pursuing the other folks.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>See, for me, like what I would have said to

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<v Speaker 2>him would be, look, this is a maintenance issue, and

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<v Speaker 2>I get it. You know, they're trying to discredit you

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<v Speaker 2>every single way. You know, from sunrise to sunset. Don't

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<v Speaker 2>let it happen. It is a maintenance issue. It is

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<v Speaker 2>not a national security issue. It's not important. It's no

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<v Speaker 2>more important than I don't know if they didn't fill

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<v Speaker 2>up the guess tank to the beast, it makes no difference.

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<v Speaker 2>It's something that could be resolved. Bring back the contractor

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<v Speaker 2>JJ Kafaro, who, by the way, is a competent contractor.

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<v Speaker 2>I know the guy. He's done thousands of swimming pools.

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<v Speaker 2>That's exactly what this was. My opinion. Nobody cut three

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<v Speaker 2>hundred and fifty yards worth of that reflection pool or

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<v Speaker 2>whatever the distance is. You know, they just didn't do

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<v Speaker 2>it right. Let him do it again. Pull it a day,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, leave it alone. But now they had to

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<v Speaker 2>just keep pushing and it just makes again the issue.

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<v Speaker 3>But Michael, the problem is this is where sometimes the

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<v Speaker 3>people that surround the president, yes, screw him and they

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<v Speaker 3>put him in a box because they told him here's

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<v Speaker 3>what it is. We've got this, and then what is

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<v Speaker 3>he going to do. I rely on people all the time.

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<v Speaker 3>You have people that you rely on I do, and

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<v Speaker 3>when they come to you and say, hey, this happened

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<v Speaker 3>or that happened, you go, oh, okay.

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<v Speaker 2>He's going to run with it. We know the president, right,

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<v Speaker 2>but the president, well enough, I would have.

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<v Speaker 3>Paid money, by the way to be in that meeting

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<v Speaker 3>with Doug Bergham, the Interior Secretary, and Jeane Piro where

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<v Speaker 3>she brought you know, they show the video of her

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<v Speaker 3>carrying two boxes of documentation into the meeting with the president,

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<v Speaker 3>and from at least the media reports they say that

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<v Speaker 3>were leaked by the way, which I always love the

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<v Speaker 3>fact when there were five people in a meeting and

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<v Speaker 3>they have multiple sources, which makes it seem like, okay,

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<v Speaker 3>there's like five people in a room.

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<v Speaker 1>They claim that three of the sources, that they have

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<v Speaker 1>three sources. So you know, the Matthew that sixty you're

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<v Speaker 1>six sixty six.

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<v Speaker 3>So I just but I have a feeling that she

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<v Speaker 3>went at him hard and like, here's this documentation, here's

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<v Speaker 3>this proof, and when you spun him up, then you

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<v Speaker 3>put it on my plate.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so you know, I want to move on and

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<v Speaker 2>ask you this because looking down the road, you got j. D. Vance,

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<v Speaker 2>who thinks that he's the heir apparent. But but you

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<v Speaker 2>got Marco Rubio who's playing the foreign policy diplomat Trump.

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<v Speaker 2>He doesn't like sharing the spotlight, as you know, or

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<v Speaker 2>at this moment picking a successor, who do you think

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<v Speaker 2>actually has the stomach and the staying power to inherit

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<v Speaker 2>and I hate to call it this, but I'm going

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<v Speaker 2>to the Maga crown or do you think everybody currently

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<v Speaker 2>kissing the ring just waiting, I don't know, to get

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<v Speaker 2>thrown under the bus.

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<v Speaker 3>So a couple of things. No one's gonna get the crown.

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<v Speaker 3>I think you might get to borrow or rent it.

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<v Speaker 2>You think there's any chef for that one?

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<v Speaker 1>You switch parties?

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<v Speaker 2>But can I get it from I.

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<v Speaker 3>Think that that that ship has sailed you. Maybe maybe

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<v Speaker 3>you know I was gonna make out like a Harriet

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<v Speaker 3>a Megan joke.

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<v Speaker 1>But anyway, I think the reality is this what people

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<v Speaker 1>have to understand.

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<v Speaker 3>And this is why I always I like doing the

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<v Speaker 3>show that I do, because understanding the rules of the

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<v Speaker 3>game are like understanding baseball or football or any sport

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<v Speaker 3>where like if you are watching it, if you want

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<v Speaker 3>to understand it, and you know, like knowing what a

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<v Speaker 3>foul is or off sides or you know, out of

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<v Speaker 3>bounds or or an illegal play like it matters. And

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<v Speaker 3>and so in the game of politics, understanding.

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<v Speaker 1>That matters.

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<v Speaker 3>And so for the for example, right now, you've got

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<v Speaker 3>a scenario where jd.

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<v Speaker 1>Vance is the current vice president. He's the chair of

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<v Speaker 1>the Republican finance.

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<v Speaker 3>And so it's his two lose and the only person

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<v Speaker 3>there's two people, one Jadvan taking himself out of that

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<v Speaker 3>race or Donald Trump changing the trajectory are the only

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<v Speaker 3>two things that can change that outcome.

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<v Speaker 1>So it is JD.

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<v Speaker 3>Vance's crown to give up or to accept if Marco

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<v Speaker 3>Rubio had any chance, a he has to get out

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<v Speaker 3>of the administration or have Donald Trump say you are

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<v Speaker 3>the guy.

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<v Speaker 1>But those are the only two scenarios. Or JD.

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<v Speaker 3>Vance just saying hey, I want to you know, be

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<v Speaker 3>a father or whatever. But that's the only way that

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<v Speaker 3>it's not Vance's Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, final question here, I want you to

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<v Speaker 2>do me a favor and help me by taking a

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<v Speaker 2>look at what's happening right here, for example, in New

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<v Speaker 2>York City with Mayor Moron Mondani, the DSA, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>taking over the narrative. You know, President Trump loves a boogeyman.

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<v Speaker 2>I hope you acknowledge that. And he's out there literally

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<v Speaker 2>slapping a communist label, socialist label on this entire move

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<v Speaker 2>mint from a White House press strategy standpoint, it's weaponizing

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<v Speaker 2>the bully pulpit against this fringe radical group. Do you

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<v Speaker 2>think it's actually effective at driving moderate voters back to

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<v Speaker 2>the GOP. Or do you think that picking fights with

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<v Speaker 2>these guys just gives them the national platform that they're craving.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I think it's brilliant. There are they are the

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<v Speaker 1>way me too. Okay, because there's three things.

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<v Speaker 3>Number one, what is Republican's strategy for success?

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<v Speaker 1>Three fold?

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<v Speaker 3>They need to remind people what they've done for them,

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<v Speaker 3>what they will do for them, and how crazy the

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<v Speaker 3>other side is. So this is part of the three

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<v Speaker 3>legged stool that they have to. Second, it's true Mondommie's nuts.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean this is he literally, as you know, just

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<v Speaker 3>talked about privatizing or governmentizing supermarkets and making them thirty

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<v Speaker 3>percent less.

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<v Speaker 1>Short requiring an idea, of course, but this is what

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<v Speaker 1>is it?

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<v Speaker 2>You don't need by the way, sure you don't need

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<v Speaker 2>need an ID to vote vote, but you need an

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<v Speaker 2>ID to buy tomatoes.

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<v Speaker 3>By the way, I'll take that one step further. Remember

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<v Speaker 3>the Democrats claim that poor people can't afford an ID

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<v Speaker 3>to vote, that's why we but apparently poor people who

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<v Speaker 3>can't eat uh need one to buy food. So if

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<v Speaker 3>I just I find the whole thing. If anyone ever

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<v Speaker 3>stops and thinks about the democratic argument.

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<v Speaker 1>It's nuts.

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<v Speaker 3>The idea that you claim you can't afford one, so

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<v Speaker 3>therefore you wouldn't wouldn't need one to vote, but you're

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<v Speaker 3>so hungry that you have to have an ID to

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<v Speaker 3>get the subsidized food, and that makes sense. That's again,

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<v Speaker 3>full stop. This is socialism. It is communism, don't I

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<v Speaker 3>think the President's absolutely right, and I actually think it's

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<v Speaker 3>not fringe. I mean you look, you just had what

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<v Speaker 3>two three members of Congress elected in New York, you

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<v Speaker 3>had a member in Colorado, You've got Mondami in Michigan,

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<v Speaker 3>and you're gonna get Francesca I'll say you yeah, I'm sorry.

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<v Speaker 3>My point though, is this isn't a fringe movement. This

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<v Speaker 3>is the Democratic Party. This is where they are going.

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<v Speaker 3>This is the growing movement. This is where AOC and

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<v Speaker 3>Bernie Sanders. I think the worst thing that we could

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<v Speaker 3>do is actually to minimize it.

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<v Speaker 1>This is real.

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<v Speaker 3>It's an existential threat to not just our democracy but

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<v Speaker 3>our country as a whole. I think we should be

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<v Speaker 3>warning people of this and making it very clear that

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<v Speaker 3>this is what they want to do. Cancel the Senate,

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<v Speaker 3>cancel and abolish the presidency, pack the court, abolish, ize,

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<v Speaker 3>defund the police, subsidize every I mean like this is

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<v Speaker 3>full of nuts.

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<v Speaker 1>Francesca Hang, by the way, who will be the.

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<v Speaker 3>Democratic nominee for governor of Wisconsin, wants to cancel Thanksgiving.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I'm just saying, like, this isn't.

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<v Speaker 3>Some random like city councilmen in you know, some random borough.

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<v Speaker 3>This is the mayor of New York City. This is

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<v Speaker 3>the nominee for the US Senate in Michigan. This is

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<v Speaker 3>the nominee for governor in Wisconsin. This is soon to

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<v Speaker 3>be several members of Congress. It's not fringe. This is

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<v Speaker 3>the new Democratic Party.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure, and thank you so much for joining me. Appreciate you,

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<v Speaker 2>my brother. I will see you when you're back.

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<v Speaker 1>Here in rats on the show. Brother, it's awesome.

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<v Speaker 2>Appreciate you and anytime I understand if.

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<v Speaker 3>You get in the cab these days in New York City,

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<v Speaker 3>Michael Cohen's face is everywhere, so hopefully it's just it

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<v Speaker 3>helps my show there on WABC on Sunday.

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<v Speaker 2>It isn't seeing my face under the bus Sean. Thank you,

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<v Speaker 2>my brother.

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<v Speaker 1>Take care, see you soon, you bet