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Speaker 7: Transmission Star Welcome to Where Did the Road Go? Join
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Speaker 7: Roadgo dot com. Now Here is your host, Sriah.
Speaker 3: Welcome to this edition of Where Did the road going tonight.
Speaker 3: I have joining me mister Saxon super Inframan. Hi, everybody,
Speaker 3: and you have brought us a newcomer I have.
Speaker 8: I have.
Speaker 9: This is a friend of Quinn's of mine that I
Speaker 9: have met through a few different avenues.
Speaker 8: Nathan around.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, everybody, So tell us a little bit
Speaker 3: about yourself. Nathan.
Speaker 8: Well, my name's Nathan Brown. I actually I published under
Speaker 8: the name Nathan Robert Brown. I am a mythologist and
Speaker 8: a writer, which is really just a fancy way of
Speaker 8: saying that I'm poor. You know, I've been. I've been
Speaker 8: writing mythology books for about the last twenty something years,
Speaker 8: you know. And I also run a shop where I
Speaker 8: make weird stuff for people.
Speaker 3: Define define weird stuff?
Speaker 8: Well, I make I make zombie apocalypse baseball bats, practice weapons,
Speaker 8: I make self defense weapons, I make vampire stakes, I
Speaker 8: make core props. I make I kind of a hodgepodge
Speaker 8: of stuff. Yeah, it's called warrior wooden props. The thing,
Speaker 8: you know, I make all kinds of stuff. The thing
Speaker 8: that were my shop seems to be mostly known for
Speaker 8: is making weird baseball bats. I make a lot of
Speaker 8: really weird baseball bats, but I make all kinds.
Speaker 3: Of stuff, ah okay, and the website for that.
Speaker 8: You can just go to eBay or and look for
Speaker 8: Warrior wooden props. The easiest thing to do is just
Speaker 8: go to eBay search for vampire steakes, and my my
Speaker 8: shop's probably going to be the first thing that comes up.
Speaker 8: I have the widest selection of vampire hunter steaks you
Speaker 8: will find anywhere on the internet. All Right, I watched
Speaker 8: way too much Hammerhouse of Horror when I was a kid.
Speaker 3: And you said you're a mythologist. M did you go
Speaker 3: to school for mythology or yeah?
Speaker 8: Yeah, I have a master's degree in English with a
Speaker 8: focus in world mythology. I studied under a doctor, Evans
Speaker 8: last Smith, who was a student of Joseph Campbell's, who
Speaker 8: was kind of if anyone remembers the Bill Moyer series
Speaker 8: from back, you know, the eighties and nineties, you know,
Speaker 8: he wrote Faces of God.
Speaker 10: He was kind of the authority on mythology in the
Speaker 10: eighties nineties.
Speaker 8: A lot of his work inspired George Lucas when he
Speaker 8: did Star Wars, and you know, it has inspired quite
Speaker 8: a few movies and and and and books over the years.
Speaker 8: And so when I got out of the Marine Corps,
Speaker 8: and I found myself in a tiny town in North
Speaker 8: Texas called which is called Falls, Texas, and and everything
Speaker 8: I had tried to do for the first year I
Speaker 8: was out of the Marine Corps did not work. And
Speaker 8: so someone suggested I tried going to college in this
Speaker 8: small town, and I went there and and enrolled. And
Speaker 8: I've been a mythology nerd my entire life. And so
Speaker 8: the moment I found out that one of the English
Speaker 8: professors was a student of Joseph Campbell's, I harassed this
Speaker 8: poor man relentlessly, like like I would chase him down
Speaker 8: to ask him questions. I wasn't even in any of
Speaker 8: his classes yet, because I was a freshman, so I
Speaker 8: wasn't even taking any of his classes. But here's this
Speaker 8: kid who's just like over enthusiastic ADHD kid, chasing him
Speaker 8: down every day to ask him mythology questions. And to
Speaker 8: the point where one time I was turning down the
Speaker 8: hallway to his office and he was coming out of
Speaker 8: his office. He turned to the left to look at me,
Speaker 8: turned back to his office, went back inside, and closed
Speaker 8: the door.
Speaker 10: He was like, Nope, not today, not dealing with this
Speaker 10: kid today.
Speaker 8: But anyway, he and I ended up later writing a book.
Speaker 8: We wrote a Complete Idiots Guide to World Mythology, which
Speaker 8: is kind of where I started my career. I started
Speaker 8: working for the Complete Idiot's Guide series while I was
Speaker 8: in college, wrote a bunch of Idiots Guides, which I
Speaker 8: was well qualified for, and wrote a bunch of those.
Speaker 8: And then then as I got kind of more established
Speaker 8: and and you know, the one thing when you write
Speaker 8: about stuff like mythology, degrees kind of matter, you know.
Speaker 8: And so it wasn't until I kind of got my
Speaker 8: bachelorsion started doing my my graduate work. Uh, and I
Speaker 8: started getting more like standalone titles and I I did,
Speaker 8: uh like these kind of where mythology that I did. Uh.
Speaker 8: They had me there was a show on the CW
Speaker 8: called Supernatural, Yeah, Munch fun Time. It was very popular,
Speaker 8: so they had me do a book on the mythology
Speaker 8: for that TV show and uh, and then I did
Speaker 8: another one on the Grim TV series that was on
Speaker 8: MPC for a while, and uh, and then I have
Speaker 8: right now, I've been doing a series of encyclopedias for
Speaker 8: DK Publishing, uh, which is owned by Penguin Random House.
Speaker 8: They you know, there used to be a whole lot
Speaker 8: of different publishers. These days, there's there's still a lot
Speaker 8: of publishers. They're all owned by about the same three
Speaker 8: or four big ones of course. Uh. But d DK
Speaker 8: Publishing is the is their their European one of their
Speaker 8: European publishing houses. So I did uh we did. First
Speaker 8: we did one on Supernatural Creatures about two years ago,
Speaker 8: and then last year we did Legendary Heroes, and then
Speaker 8: this year we're doing The Unexplained, which is all about
Speaker 8: just weird us.
Speaker 9: Okay, all right, yeah, you know before we jump into
Speaker 9: some of that too.
Speaker 11: Uh, Nathan, you did a book on Brilith.
Speaker 8: Right, yeah, yeah, that was Yeah.
Speaker 10: My master's thesis was on a little rape of Lilith.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that was that.
Speaker 10: That That actually was a big passion project of mine.
Speaker 12: It was.
Speaker 8: It was also the reason I was chosen to do
Speaker 8: the Mythology of Supernatural because Lilith was a character on there,
Speaker 8: and they wanted somebody who and it was a very
Speaker 8: popular character, and so they wanted somebody who kind of
Speaker 8: knew the history of that. And Lilith is one of
Speaker 8: those weird characters, like he's been around a kid, you not,
Speaker 8: you guys, She's been around longer than anyone else in mythology. Like,
Speaker 8: there's not a single mythological character I can point to
Speaker 8: that it is older than she is.
Speaker 10: We haven't writing like, yeah, she like the oldest myth
Speaker 10: that we have.
Speaker 8: She's mentioned in it, Like that's like the oldest written
Speaker 8: down myth that we have in Kunea forms, like five
Speaker 8: thousand years old. Her name is in it, and uh
Speaker 8: and it's in a creation myth kind of a thing
Speaker 8: about the Halloopu tree. It's a don't get me started
Speaker 8: on that. But anyway, Yeah, so I wrote, But the
Speaker 8: thing I always found weird about Lilith is when I
Speaker 8: when I would research her in mythology, it's always either
Speaker 8: like her from a judaic point of view, or her
Speaker 8: from this Marian point of view, or or her from
Speaker 8: the pop culture point of view. But there was there
Speaker 8: wasn't a whole complete history of that character. So so
Speaker 8: I basically started from the beginning and worked up to
Speaker 8: the modern day and just wrote pretty much a five
Speaker 8: thousand year history of Lilith.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 8: And and yeah. Then after I graduated, or when I
Speaker 8: when I started to do my doctoral work, which I
Speaker 8: didn't finish, there was a publisher that offered to publish
Speaker 8: it for me, and and I allowed them to do.
Speaker 8: So what they didn't tell me was they were going
Speaker 8: to turn around and charge one hundred dollars.
Speaker 10: A copy because it was an academic of course.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and it was probably one of the few times
Speaker 8: I regretted allowing someone to publish my work.
Speaker 3: So, uh, what, what where did Lilis start?
Speaker 8: Oh?
Speaker 10: So, so Lilis started in in ancient Mesopotamia.
Speaker 8: It's the oldest. We don't know where when she began.
Speaker 8: Which you have to remember is when myths are written down.
Speaker 8: Any stories actually are written down a lot of times.
Speaker 8: They've existed as an oral tradition long before anyone decided
Speaker 8: to write them down.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 8: Sure, you have Knea form, which is the oldest kind
Speaker 8: of written form that we know of, which was you know,
Speaker 8: writing basically these wedge shaped pictographic images into wet clay tablets,
Speaker 8: and very few of those tablets survive. Most of what
Speaker 8: we have survives in fragments, or we have cylinder seals,
Speaker 8: which are stone seals that were carved that we got
Speaker 8: a lot of those. So Lilis shows up in the
Speaker 8: oldest myth that we have, which is the Hooko Tree myth,
Speaker 8: which is about this goddess and Nana.
Speaker 10: There's a lot of Genesis elements in this myth.
Speaker 8: So this goddis Nana, goes into her holy garden where
Speaker 8: there's and and finds this tree that's washed up on
Speaker 8: the shores of the Euphrates, and she pulls the tree
Speaker 8: into her holy garden and plants it and leaves it
Speaker 8: there for ten years to mature, at which point she's
Speaker 8: planning to harvest the tree to build a series of objects.
Speaker 8: And all these objects would have been seen as like
Speaker 8: symbols of civilization at that time, things like a bed,
Speaker 8: a chair, a door, you know, like like you ever
Speaker 8: remember that most of the world at that time was
Speaker 8: still living a very nomadic lifestyle. The idea of land
Speaker 8: ownership was was still kind of a new concept, right
Speaker 8: that was that was and a lot of humans didn't
Speaker 8: get that concept. That was really kind of in the
Speaker 8: cradle of civilization in Mesopotamia is kind of where that
Speaker 8: whole idea of like this land is mine and we
Speaker 8: own it, and we were going to put a wall
Speaker 8: around it so to protect the people inside of it,
Speaker 8: which became you know, a big lure because moving back
Speaker 8: then to get you murdered. But anyway, so in this
Speaker 8: in this myth, Lilis comes back after ten years and
Speaker 8: there's a there's an onzu bird living in the branch.
Speaker 8: There's a there's a serpent that cannot be tamed coiled
Speaker 8: around the roofs, which is interesting because you also have
Speaker 8: that imagery in like the x Raisal Tree of.
Speaker 10: You know, the Viking and Norse mythology.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and uh.
Speaker 10: And then in the in the trunk of the tree
Speaker 10: is the is the dark Maiden.
Speaker 8: Lilith is there. And so Inana, who's who is the
Speaker 8: most powerful godess in that pantheon, just basically sits down
Speaker 8: and starts crying like she can't do anything. She goes
Speaker 8: and gets her brother Gilgamesh, who you may or may
Speaker 8: not have heard of, the Emesh and he shows up
Speaker 8: with a tree with a with an axe that weighs
Speaker 8: like three hundred pounds and uh and hits the tree
Speaker 8: with it, and the onzu bird flies away, and the
Speaker 8: the surpent that cannot be tamed slitherers off. And here's
Speaker 8: where it gets interesting. And it says that Lilith flew
Speaker 8: off into the wild and uninhabited land and that's important
Speaker 8: for a reason. It's it's one of those things that
Speaker 8: seems kind of anocy, but it's actually very a very
Speaker 8: important statement in that whole myth, because gods in that
Speaker 8: period of time were geographical. If you wanted to worship
Speaker 8: a god, you went to where that god was right,
Speaker 8: you had, you had shrines in certain cities. Each city
Speaker 8: had a god that was its own. So you wanted
Speaker 8: to be like a worship her of that god, you
Speaker 8: went to that city. So by by basically having a
Speaker 8: myth that excelled Lilith into the wild and uninhabited lands,
Speaker 8: most likely there was a cult of Lilith that existed
Speaker 8: in that area when when the Assyrians wrote this down,
Speaker 8: and so they were trying to say, Okay, your goddess
Speaker 8: isn't here anymore, so if you want to worship her,
Speaker 8: you got to go out into the wild and uninhabited lands, which,
Speaker 8: as I mentioned earlier, was not safe. Uh Like it's
Speaker 8: not like now. There's something I always have a hard
Speaker 8: time explaining to people is what it's what we're talking
Speaker 8: about as a world with no social services, Like there's
Speaker 8: no police, there's no law, there's not even law, like
Speaker 8: there's not and codified law system in place. Like if
Speaker 8: I'm traveling from one city to another and I come
Speaker 8: across somebody else and they decide they want to kill me,
Speaker 8: enslave my family and take all my stuff, that that's
Speaker 8: there's no nothing to stop them except for me. Right, Like,
Speaker 8: there's there's no police to call. And if they and
Speaker 8: if they do all that, guess what, there's no law
Speaker 8: that's going to like like get justice for that later.
Speaker 8: It's just going at all. Yeah, right, And so that
Speaker 8: was a very like dangerous thing. And so well, here's
Speaker 8: the crazy thing about it. And this is one of
Speaker 8: the part of my thesis to kind of kiss some
Speaker 8: people off. But I ended up being right. Uh. I
Speaker 8: believe that what happened was the worship versu of Lilith
Speaker 8: left and they went to other places in the world
Speaker 8: and established her cult elsewhere. Mmmm Lamia, for example, in
Speaker 8: Greek mythology, very similar to Lilith and Lamia in the
Speaker 8: Southern Mesopamian dialect, is Lam is another name for Lilith.
Speaker 8: M Lilith is also associated with childbirth and the killing
Speaker 8: of babies and the death of Davies and Colli in
Speaker 8: the Hindu mythology. Has several elements associated with lilith as well.
Speaker 8: You also have like pictures of or or representations of
Speaker 8: lilith that have extreme similarities to similar representations of Klamia
Speaker 8: and other figures in crete Greece and in India. Here's
Speaker 8: the fun part. When I said that, I got made
Speaker 8: fun of by some of the other academics because they said,
Speaker 8: there is no evidence that the ancient Mesopamians and the
Speaker 8: ancient Hindus or Hindi people ever traded, right, Yeah, and
Speaker 8: there wasn't at that time, but I said, I firmly
Speaker 8: believed that they did. They did interact, even though we
Speaker 8: didn't have any evidence yet. Here's what's crazy. Two years later,
Speaker 8: somebody was going through a drawer at the Museum of
Speaker 8: London found the cylinder steal from Ansia, Mesopotamia, and guess
Speaker 8: what was on it?
Speaker 10: A freaking elephant was on it.
Speaker 8: Here's the problem with that. There are no elephants in
Speaker 8: the Middle East, right, that's where there are elephants.
Speaker 3: Yeah, in India. I always love the certainty that people
Speaker 3: have when we're when we don't know, we don't know
Speaker 3: anything really, like we're just putting puzzle pieces together, right,
Speaker 3: and that.
Speaker 8: Was the great things. I felt very validated because you know,
Speaker 8: like I, it basically proved because the only way they
Speaker 8: would have known what an elephant looked like was either
Speaker 8: someone went to India and saw one or someone from
Speaker 8: India came there with one. Africa would have been of
Speaker 8: another possibility, but it would have been it would have
Speaker 8: made even less desperate to have come from Africa because
Speaker 8: of the geography and the distance of the time. The
Speaker 8: Hindukush people would have made far more sense. And so yeah,
Speaker 8: so I wrote, so yeah, that, but that's where she
Speaker 8: first shows up, is that that Lupu street myth, which
Speaker 8: is the oldest known myth that we have, Like I said,
Speaker 8: it's about five thousand years old. And then she shows
Speaker 8: up again, you know in in Judaic mythology, and the
Speaker 8: Judaic people were originally Semitic tribes in the Middle East
Speaker 8: at that time, and they definitely interacted with the people
Speaker 8: of Uru and Uruk and possibly even with the Chatah
Speaker 8: people that no longer exist existed by this time, which
Speaker 8: is where I believe probably Lillis came from. Is there
Speaker 8: was there was a there's a civilization we referred to
Speaker 8: as Chattahyat that existed before any of this stuff got
Speaker 8: written down. We know they existed. We also know they
Speaker 8: were wiped out from the evidence we have. Most likely
Speaker 8: they were matriarchal. They had never known war. They had
Speaker 8: no army.
Speaker 13: Uh.
Speaker 8: Men women were in charge of the government. Men handled
Speaker 8: public men, men handled public works.
Speaker 14: Uh.
Speaker 8: They had nothing but peace until the first time they
Speaker 8: came across a horse riding guy, god worshiping military cultures.
Speaker 8: And then they got murdered and enslaved man. And yes,
Speaker 8: you know it's unfortunate, but you know, they they didn't
Speaker 8: even have they had you know, they didn't have.
Speaker 10: Fortifications, they didn't have weapons.
Speaker 8: They they they they didn't make it. And uh. And
Speaker 8: I believe that's probably where the Lilith myth began. I
Speaker 8: think they're a little cult probably started there. Also. I
Speaker 8: want to make one thing clear when I say cult,
Speaker 8: because I think a lot of people, especially in the
Speaker 8: Western mindset, misunderstand that word. When I say cult, I
Speaker 8: don't mean like the way we mean that in the
Speaker 8: modern sense, uh, in the monern sense. When we say
Speaker 8: a cult, we kind of mean like a weirdoga booga religion.
Speaker 8: Right when you're talking about ancient ancient religions. We we
Speaker 8: a cult because there there's so many religions in the
Speaker 8: ancient world, like like we refer to each different one
Speaker 8: as a cult, even though that not but not in
Speaker 8: the modern sense of that word, like the followers that
Speaker 8: I have.
Speaker 3: Exactly well, I mean, cult just means people who follow
Speaker 3: a similar belief system, doesn't it.
Speaker 8: It does, but but in the modern vernacular it's kind
Speaker 8: of taken on a negative pens mean, like like, well,
Speaker 8: it's not a real religion, it's just a cult. Right.
Speaker 10: I don't want people to think I'm downplaying, you know,
Speaker 10: those religions.
Speaker 3: H So, she she was one of the first female
Speaker 3: archetypical entities out there.
Speaker 8: Yeah, and my I think she was the original goddess,
Speaker 8: is what I believe.
Speaker 10: I don't I can't prove that yet. One of these
Speaker 10: days maybe, but you know, I believe that she was.
Speaker 8: You know. The one thing that I find interesting is
Speaker 8: that that the Jews integrated her into their genesis. Myth
Speaker 8: asked the first wife of Adam right, right, and uh,
Speaker 8: and she disobeyed Adam and was cursed by God for
Speaker 8: disobeying Adam and and and tossed out into the land
Speaker 8: of Nod, where where Cain would later later also be tossed.
Speaker 8: She ended up like being cursed to give birth to
Speaker 8: like one hundred still born babies every day until she
Speaker 8: reached the Red Sea. And then God sent three angels.
Speaker 8: And these are old school angels. These aren't guys in
Speaker 8: togas with wings. These were like like things with like
Speaker 8: twenty heads and you know, five thousand eyes, and they're
Speaker 8: they're very scary looking things. He's been three angels to
Speaker 8: her to basically give her a chance to repent and
Speaker 8: come back and play ice, and basically gave all three
Speaker 8: of them the finger and uh and jumped into the
Speaker 8: Red Sea and became the the wife of one of
Speaker 8: the demon kings of the sea at that time, the
Speaker 8: slanted serpent, the Lebason, and and that became but just
Speaker 8: she was demonized. And by that at that point, and
Speaker 8: then she became in the jew Jewish and Hebrew mythology,
Speaker 8: she became a demon. She became a thing to be
Speaker 8: like feared. And even to this day, a lot of
Speaker 8: a lot of Orthodox Jews they have palaceman's and symbols
Speaker 8: that they wear were right on the ground when a woman.
Speaker 10: Is in Labor having birth to ward off Lilith.
Speaker 9: Question real quick too, because you know in some of
Speaker 9: the old you know, oldest stuff with the l.
Speaker 8: You know, you have Astrara mm hmmm.
Speaker 9: You know, do you think there was an influence of
Speaker 9: Lilith on that and they kind of like split her
Speaker 9: in two?
Speaker 8: I mean, that's the thing. Al Yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 8: definitely a possibility with with older gods. That happened quite
Speaker 8: a bit. Like if you look at you know, like
Speaker 8: in Norse mythology, for example, you had yet here in
Speaker 8: four who has some similarities, but they were they were
Speaker 8: distinctly separate heroes, right, And then some of Tear's stories started,
Speaker 8: Tear's name started getting replaced by Thor's name, you know,
Speaker 8: and and then later Tear kind of became this this
Speaker 8: minor figure. Thor became this huge figure. And you know,
Speaker 8: you and you do see that where you know, you'll
Speaker 8: you see the opposite happen, where you'll have a god
Speaker 8: who maybe just has too much going on and kind
Speaker 8: of gets split up into multiple you know, I don't
Speaker 8: know if characters is the wrong word, but multiple deities,
Speaker 8: But yeah, I definitely think that's possible. And in the
Speaker 8: Rape of Lilis I, which, by the way, I give
Speaker 8: away for free now, So if anybody wants that book,
Speaker 8: you can just email me and I'll send you a
Speaker 8: PDF of it.
Speaker 10: Don't don't pay for It's only one hundred pages.
Speaker 3: Did you have another question sexon?
Speaker 9: I think that was my big one with Lillis, because
Speaker 9: I'm I get so fascinated with this because you know,
Speaker 9: like I think probably the first time I heard about
Speaker 9: Lilith was like, you know, and.
Speaker 11: I think Dathan and I are about the same age.
Speaker 11: I remember like high school and the Lilith there and like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 11: this is Adam's wife.
Speaker 9: Before he was created, and you know, she was always
Speaker 9: portrayed as like, you know, almost like what she was
Speaker 9: like Harry and some of the imagery I think I'd
Speaker 9: seen and stuff like that, like almost.
Speaker 3: Like a.
Speaker 9: Oh my gosh, what's the word I'm looking for, Not
Speaker 9: like so squats or anything like that, but like a
Speaker 9: green man sort of limital figure.
Speaker 11: And it's just fascinating to me to like see how
Speaker 11: far back this goes.
Speaker 8: Of course, yeah, and that that dark aspect of her
Speaker 8: has been around from the beginning. And my one of
Speaker 8: the things I talked about in the Rape of Lewis
Speaker 8: when I when I discussed her, is that I think
Speaker 8: originally she was a whole goddess in the sense that
Speaker 8: she was womb and toom he was life and she
Speaker 8: is death, right, But then the idea of a woman
Speaker 8: dealing out death or a female or feminine figure dealing
Speaker 8: out death and didn't sit great with the sky god
Speaker 8: worshiping like warrior culture, right, so those powers kind of
Speaker 8: got got stripped away, and she was demonized, and the
Speaker 8: the the fertility goddesses were around. You know that we
Speaker 8: want the women to be fertile, you know, we want
Speaker 8: we want them to be associated with the earth and
Speaker 8: childbirth and all those things. But if she, if they
Speaker 8: have any any destructive power at all, that's not acceptable
Speaker 8: and that's evil. And so you know, Lila's kind of
Speaker 8: over the span of five thousand years, just got more
Speaker 8: and more demoted and more and more demonized. That's why
Speaker 8: the name, that's why the title of the books rapel Bilis,
Speaker 8: because I feel like it's just been you know what
Speaker 8: amazes me is that they've done their best to get
Speaker 8: rid of her. If you even look at Genesis one
Speaker 8: and Genesis two, there are contradictions in those two books
Speaker 8: because they deleted her from them. But they did a
Speaker 8: really bad editing job.
Speaker 3: So I mean, let's be fair. That's most of the
Speaker 3: modern text at this point.
Speaker 8: Right, Uh, you know, like, for example, it says, you know,
Speaker 8: God created man, man and woman, or God created humans
Speaker 8: man and woman. He created them, right, Yeah, then suddenly
Speaker 8: there's just Adam in the garden and Eve comes later,
Speaker 8: So why why did why was that man and woman?
Speaker 8: He created them? But then a woman doesn't get created
Speaker 8: later on. Yeah, they did a really crappy editing job,
Speaker 8: but they they they they've tried to get rid of her,
Speaker 8: and that's kind of the thing I find also amazing
Speaker 8: about her is that that for five thousand years, multiple
Speaker 8: cultures and religions have tried to delete her from existence,
Speaker 8: and she has stopped them at every turn.
Speaker 10: He's still managed to be remembered, which I find kind
Speaker 10: of awesome.
Speaker 3: And I would think any patriarchal culture is going to
Speaker 3: be afraid of a strong matriarchal.
Speaker 8: Goddess, oh for sure.
Speaker 3: So I mean there's there's an obvious reason to vilify
Speaker 3: her to those people.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, and go ahead, Oh, I was just gonna say,
Speaker 8: and that myth is a really good example of what
Speaker 8: I like to call my god, beat up your God.
Speaker 8: Would you find a lot of those myths in the
Speaker 8: ancient world up until the Middle Ages. Really if you
Speaker 8: even look at like the Saint Patrick is a great
Speaker 8: example of that. I love I love the Saint Patrick myth.
Speaker 8: My family's Irish, Scottish, Engoistutch and Germans, so we have
Speaker 8: a lot of alcoholics. But but Patrick is a good example.
Speaker 8: You have the whole idea that he came to Ireland
Speaker 8: and taste all the snakes away. The problem is they're
Speaker 8: never worry any stakes in Ireland. But right, but you know,
Speaker 8: that's the kind of story that it's like, well, if
Speaker 8: your gods were so powerful, why didn't they get rid
Speaker 8: of all the day? You know, our god came along
Speaker 8: and got rid of all the snakes so that you're welcome,
Speaker 8: you know, And you find a lot of those kinds
Speaker 8: of stories. Uh. You know, if you look at the
Speaker 8: Hindus again and and the and Zeroastrians for example, it's
Speaker 8: a really cool like like contrast between the the the
Speaker 8: Zeroastrian religion and the Hindu religion because the word for
Speaker 8: angel in Zeroastrianism is the word for demon and Hinduism
Speaker 8: and the word for angel, and Hinduism is the word
Speaker 8: for demon and Zeroastrianism. They didn't get along.
Speaker 11: I feel like there was some animosity there.
Speaker 8: Oh, absolutely, there was so much they were they were
Speaker 8: throwing shade left right at each other. Those Zeroastrians and
Speaker 8: Hindus did not get along at all, mainly because zero
Speaker 8: Astrianism was the first monotheistic religion, the first like one
Speaker 8: god religion, and the Hindus not a fan of that concept, right,
Speaker 8: So they they kind of, you know, like they that
Speaker 8: was kind of what you ended up with, uh, with them.
Speaker 8: And and I've always like deva, which is where we
Speaker 8: get the word for devil and Zeroastrianism.
Speaker 10: Deva is a is a demon more or less.
Speaker 8: Uh, It's not exactly, but it's it's that's the closest
Speaker 8: where we have, whereas a deva in Hinduism is like
Speaker 8: a like an almost like a divine being.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 8: So I've always found that interesting that it's like they're like, no, no, no,
Speaker 8: there ain't there the angels of that religion are actually demons.
Speaker 10: You're being fooled, And the other religion is saying the
Speaker 10: exact same thing.
Speaker 9: About them that's really good, like propaganda and branding, you know,
Speaker 9: oh absolutely, yeah, are there?
Speaker 3: Do you see any connections with Lilith and Hecate?
Speaker 8: He? I mean you can, you can any any warrior
Speaker 8: or or or destructive goddess. You can definitely find links.
Speaker 8: I've never investigated a link to at least if I have,
Speaker 8: I've my old brain has forgotten at this point. Get
Speaker 8: I wrote The Rape of Lilis about twenty years ago.
Speaker 8: So yeah, so yeah, but they but you know, that's
Speaker 8: that's the thing about Lilis. I found some interesting that
Speaker 8: you could find parallels, and I do in the book
Speaker 8: draw parallels between her and several other mythological goddesses that
Speaker 8: are in multiple religions or multiple cultures I should say
Speaker 8: not religions, but like what I believe happened when when
Speaker 8: they were told they had to leave the cities, they
Speaker 8: had two choices. They could go easter, they could go west.
Speaker 8: There weren't a lot of other places to go. North
Speaker 8: was not go There were very bad people living north
Speaker 8: of where they were.
Speaker 10: They didn't want to go north.
Speaker 8: South was the ocean, and in west was the ocean.
Speaker 8: So some of them I think went east ended up
Speaker 8: among the Hindus.
Speaker 10: I do believe though, that some of them did go west,
Speaker 10: and they did end up at the coast of the Mediterranean.
Speaker 10: And at that time there were.
Speaker 8: There were small pockets of Greek who were seafaring to
Speaker 8: that shore of what we.
Speaker 10: Would now call Israel uh and and Lebanon muh.
Speaker 8: But they were there, we know they were there. So
Speaker 8: what I believe happened is they got to the shore,
Speaker 8: hooked up with these Greeks and and got on their
Speaker 8: boat and went across the sea, and they ended up
Speaker 8: in places like Crete where we have statues of a
Speaker 8: snake of a goddess holding snakes in her hands with
Speaker 8: her boobs out. You know, that's that's absolutely Lilith. I
Speaker 8: can show you a relief of Lilith boobs out holding
Speaker 8: snakes in her hands in the exact same position as
Speaker 8: the as those statues from Creek, which that can't be
Speaker 8: a coincidence. Yeah, yeah, you have that oddly specific Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 8: it's it's it's the turning of the head, the the
Speaker 8: position of the body holding three snakes in his hand.
Speaker 8: Like there's just like there's two many things. The only
Speaker 8: thing missing are the are the the the bird talent,
Speaker 8: feet and wings, you know, because that's Lilith is associated
Speaker 8: with with owls preach owl and she's also associated with cats.
Speaker 8: Those are her her kind of animals. She was mostly
Speaker 8: associated with with lions and tigers and large cats, but
Speaker 8: at that time she was also somewhat associated with the
Speaker 8: on zoo because the on zoo is kind of a
Speaker 8: weird like I mentioned it with the hoope treemans, it's
Speaker 8: kind of a weird creature. It's it's part lion, part eagle.
Speaker 8: But the problem is, no one really ever in writings,
Speaker 8: said what the proportions were. Oh so so in in
Speaker 8: in like like drawings and statues. Sometimes it's got a
Speaker 8: human head and a lion's body and wings. Sometimes it's
Speaker 8: got eagles wings. Sometimes it's got a lion's head and
Speaker 8: an eagle's body. Sometimes it's just a lion with an
Speaker 8: eagle head and away like it's no one, no one
Speaker 8: really uh seemed to know exactly what an onzu bird like.
Speaker 8: We knew it was part eagle and part lions, but
Speaker 8: no one mentioned like which parts were which.
Speaker 10: So there's the mainconsistencies in this depiction.
Speaker 9: Okay, oh yeah, I looked up the ONU Bird and
Speaker 9: I'm like, oh, I've seen that in like the you're
Speaker 9: like statues or release of that in the British Museum.
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, oh god, the bridge stole so much stuff.
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's it's just a big room full of uh loot,
Speaker 11: you know.
Speaker 8: Oh my gosh. But you know what, it's sad too,
Speaker 8: because like there's a part of me that really wishes
Speaker 8: those artifacts go back to the countries that they came from.
Speaker 8: But at the same time, like my heart absolutely broke
Speaker 8: in the last decade when I watched Isis blow up. Yeah,
Speaker 8: so many of those artifacts and ruins. And I'm glad
Speaker 8: that a lot of that stuff survived because it wasn't there, right,
Speaker 8: But at the same time, I hate that it's it's
Speaker 8: sitting in the museum of a of a colonizer.
Speaker 3: Well there is also there are people who claim to
Speaker 3: have evidence that part of the goal of the Iraq
Speaker 3: War was to read the artifacts from the museums.
Speaker 8: Well yeah, I mean that's it. It's it's not outside
Speaker 8: the realm of let's face this that we white people
Speaker 8: kind of have a track record.
Speaker 15: Yes, yeah, Unfortunately, what I did Egyptology in college, I
Speaker 15: did some stuff because I was going to London at
Speaker 15: the same time for other things, and my professor let
Speaker 15: me do a paper on, you know, some of the
Speaker 15: stuff in the British Museum, and she.
Speaker 9: Refused to call it anything but the b m Yeah,
Speaker 9: because of the other things that DM stands for, right,
Speaker 9: And so that was like in my paper, I was
Speaker 9: like here, you know, referred to from now on as
Speaker 9: you know, just the initials, and like I got an
Speaker 9: extra credit for that, Yeah I did.
Speaker 3: I did not all know all that I thought she
Speaker 3: originated in and he you know, in the Hebrew Bible,
Speaker 3: you know, in the original writings.
Speaker 8: Yeah, a lot of people do. And and that's the
Speaker 8: funny thing is just like like I said, the Jews
Speaker 8: tried to kind of delete her.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 8: And the only reason we really know that she because
Speaker 8: because most people knew her not as Adam's first wife,
Speaker 8: but as a demon in the Jewish kind of mythology.
Speaker 8: And the reason we we have it is because there
Speaker 8: was a I guess a mystic is the best way.
Speaker 8: A man named Ben Sira who wrote a book that
Speaker 8: we now call the Alphabet of Ben Sira. He he
Speaker 8: was a mystic. A wizard doesn't sound right, but it's
Speaker 8: kind of what he was working for a nobleman in
Speaker 8: the Middle Ages who had a very sick son. He
Speaker 8: had a young son who was very sick, and so
Speaker 8: he basically said, you know, heal my son, or you're
Speaker 8: going to die. So the guy comes in and he
Speaker 8: draws a symbol on the floor, and of course this
Speaker 8: is a Christian knight or noble. He's very concerned this
Speaker 8: is devil worship or witchcraft or something, so he asked
Speaker 8: for an explanation. So ben Cyrus sits down and writes
Speaker 8: the origin of this symbol, which is the story of
Speaker 8: Lilith basically, and that's the only surviving account we have,
Speaker 8: which is obviously a secondhand recollection of her inclusion in
Speaker 8: the original Hebrew Bible, or I shouldn't say Bible. It's
Speaker 8: not the Bible. It's in their own book. They hate
Speaker 8: it when you call it the Bible. But yeah, so,
Speaker 8: so that's why we have that. But up until, like
Speaker 8: I said, like, the thing about Lilith is so funny
Speaker 8: is that people keep trying to delete her. But there's
Speaker 8: always someone in every in every age, there's someone who
Speaker 8: who managed to preserve her memory. Hmmmm, and uh, and
Speaker 8: like I when I I know that when I refer
Speaker 8: to willis I I I I don't. And this is
Speaker 8: gonna make me sound like a crazy person. I look
Speaker 8: at Lilith as a living entity to.
Speaker 11: Me, Okay, you're in a good place for that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 8: I just I feel that there's a there's a dark
Speaker 8: feminine energy in whatever, the divine sphere, whatever you want
Speaker 8: to call it. And I don't feel that it's ever
Speaker 8: represented in religion, Like it's constantly kind of like how
Speaker 8: her myths are, She's constantly it's constantly ignored or suppressed. Yeah,
Speaker 8: and when it when it is, and it's it's seen
Speaker 8: as evil or demonic or wrong, and so like, I
Speaker 8: have this great story and I when I wrote my
Speaker 8: thesis the night I finished it, I would basically sit
Speaker 8: in my office on campus all night and write because
Speaker 8: it's the only time I have ad have really bad
Speaker 8: ADHD is probably very obvious at this point, but uh,
Speaker 8: but I needed to be able to focus in the
Speaker 8: nighttime was the best time no one was in the building.
Speaker 8: And so I sat at my office and I kid
Speaker 8: you not, I wrote the last sentence of my thesis.
Speaker 8: I got up, I stretched. I have not heard a
Speaker 8: sound in the building all night. I opened the door
Speaker 8: and there's a Queen of Spades playing card on the
Speaker 8: floor in the hallway in front of my office door.
Speaker 8: Like I don't know how it got there. I had
Speaker 8: gone and got coffee throughout the night several times. That
Speaker 8: when you opened a door this building, they were those
Speaker 8: big kind of fire doors I'm talking about ye, So
Speaker 8: like when they closed, you were like cool, like you
Speaker 8: it wasn't quiet. It wasn't a quiet building. Like there
Speaker 8: there was no speaking around in this building. And so
Speaker 8: it's the weirdest thing though. And I've kept that car
Speaker 8: and I still have it to this day. I've kept
Speaker 8: that card. Oh wow, that's awesome. Yeah. I was like,
Speaker 8: and I don't know if that was her. I always
Speaker 8: felt it was her way of going like, Okay, good job,
Speaker 8: right right.
Speaker 11: I mean, that's that's exactly how I feel about that.
Speaker 8: That's awesome. And I I when I wrote my thesis,
Speaker 8: I had to do an introduction. Usually you write your
Speaker 8: introduction after you write the the and uh and I
Speaker 8: wanted to tell that story, and I wrote it in
Speaker 8: my introduction and the chair of my committee was like, okay,
Speaker 8: so you got to change the introduction. He's like, this
Speaker 8: is not gonna fly. He's like, not in an academic setting.
Speaker 8: He's like, he's gonna have to. You gotta have to.
Speaker 8: He's like, no ghost stories, man, He's like, you gotta.
Speaker 8: So I I and wrote about, you know, my obsession
Speaker 8: with strong women's and childhood in my insturra hit my
Speaker 8: intro instead. But when when I decided to start giving
Speaker 8: it away for free because this publisher, I had to
Speaker 8: change some of it.
Speaker 10: I had to change at least twenty percent.
Speaker 8: The intro was the perfect place to do that, so
Speaker 8: I reinserted that story into the introduction in the one
Speaker 8: that I give away. Now nice, Oh, that's awesome.
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Speaker 9: Nathan, just since we're talking about, you know, academia and
Speaker 9: them saying like, hey, you can't flip thisid here. You know,
Speaker 9: when I was doing anthropology, everybody that were grad students
Speaker 9: above me, that were teaching my classes all had paranormal
Speaker 9: experiences and none of them were able to never like
Speaker 9: put that in anything.
Speaker 8: Like you felt like you ran into that a lot too. Yeah,
Speaker 8: I think everybody does. You know, in the academic circles,
Speaker 8: you know, they're the certain like some rules are spoken,
Speaker 8: some are unspoken, you know, like that, and that was
Speaker 8: one of them that you know, yeah, you could never
Speaker 8: you could never insert too much of yourself into something
Speaker 8: not not you never wanted to get too personal or
Speaker 8: too too flighty. That was always the word they use,
Speaker 8: you know. You you you always needed to be able
Speaker 8: to support things with facts and stuff like that. That
Speaker 8: I was like, yeah, but but like a little side
Speaker 8: anecdote that doesn't necessarily try to prove your argument. I
Speaker 8: don't think it's harmful, especially not in an introduction, like
Speaker 8: I'm not proving my point in my introduction, and so
Speaker 8: you know, but yeah, and then that's honestly one of
Speaker 8: the reasons I left academia. There's a lot of gatekeeping
Speaker 8: in academia. Yeah, and as a as a mythologist, it
Speaker 8: really bothered me because, in my opinion, mythology is probably
Speaker 8: one of the most interesting subjects in the world, and
Speaker 8: yet they managed to make it boring as hell, like
Speaker 8: all the time, Like I don't know how you could
Speaker 8: make mythology boring, but they managed to do it. And
Speaker 8: and also this idea that like when you write these
Speaker 8: mythology text you have to use that academic voice in
Speaker 8: your in your writing, and I absolutely despised that when
Speaker 8: I was in academia that I could not just write
Speaker 8: in my own conversational writing style, that I had to
Speaker 8: use that academic writing style, which for someone who's an
Speaker 8: average reader, that academic writing style makes the book unreadable. Yeah, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 8: and then they can charge it, right and yeah, oh
Speaker 8: yeah of course, and and not to mention unaffordable. Yeah,
Speaker 8: but I always found that that part of the academic
Speaker 8: world bothered the hell out of me. I I didn't
Speaker 8: like it, and I still don't. And like one of
Speaker 8: the projects that I'm trying to get off the ground
Speaker 8: right now is I want to write a fairy tale book. Okay,
Speaker 8: because I wrote, like I said, I wrote the Mythology
Speaker 8: of Grim And when I wrote that, I you know,
Speaker 8: I'm a mythologist. I was familiar with fairy tales, but
Speaker 8: I'd never really really focused on them, and so I
Speaker 8: had to really deep dive into some old school fairy
Speaker 8: tales and I fell in love with them. They're just
Speaker 8: absolutely nuts. They are. The older the fairy tale, the
Speaker 8: crazier it is. I love it. And usually the moral
Speaker 8: of all of them is the stupid one Sky and uh,
Speaker 8: And I even do a lecture at Comic Con at
Speaker 8: Tampa Comic Con every year of that by that name.
Speaker 8: But what I want to do is I want to
Speaker 8: write of kind of an omnibus of old school myth
Speaker 8: or old school fairy tales, but I want to rewrite
Speaker 8: them in the modern language, because there are so many
Speaker 8: really cool fairy tales out there, but they were written,
Speaker 8: you know, thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth, ally after the nineteenth century,
Speaker 8: and people wrote very differently in those time periods. Yeah,
Speaker 8: to the point where you know, like if you were
Speaker 8: to if a sixteen year old today opens the eighteen
Speaker 8: sixty two volume or an edition of The Brothers Grim right,
Speaker 8: m like it. They they want to they want to
Speaker 8: read the story, but they don't understand what it's saying. Yeah,
Speaker 8: the language is, it's just it was just a different
Speaker 8: it honestly was a different language, the same words, but
Speaker 8: it's just they don't really get they can't absorb it
Speaker 8: because it's not in their own work. So what I
Speaker 8: would love to do is write an entire like collection
Speaker 8: of fairy tales that are written in the modern language
Speaker 8: so that we don't lose them.
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, you know, I think it's an awesome idea,
Speaker 9: because you know, the the fairy tales that we do
Speaker 9: have now that people are aware of are the ones
Speaker 9: that became disneyfied, right, And so you may think that
Speaker 9: you even know the fairy tale of a popular you
Speaker 9: know story, but you know the Disney version of it,
Speaker 9: not the you know or like original version, much less
Speaker 9: how it was probably told in the places things were emphasized,
Speaker 9: and you know, like even the context of why a
Speaker 9: story might be told a certain way.
Speaker 8: Oh god, yeah, Cleveland Beauty is a great example of that.
Speaker 8: Like the Disney version of Sleeping Beauty not even close, yes,
Speaker 8: not even close to the original. The original version of
Speaker 8: Sleeping Beauty has like two acts to it, first of all,
Speaker 8: And like I always like to talk about Sleeping Beauty
Speaker 8: in the sense that like it's a story of people
Speaker 8: who make terrible decisions. And also that's another thing, is
Speaker 8: that like the context of certain things that Sleep Beauty
Speaker 8: people don't understand nowt Like like, for example, the curse
Speaker 8: that she was given, which was that she would pick
Speaker 8: her finger on a spinning wheel, right right, Well, simple thing,
Speaker 8: just avoid a spinning wheel, right, like in the Middle Ages. Actually,
Speaker 8: let's go from from about the tenth century until about
Speaker 8: one hundred and fifty years ago, everyone worked in textiles.
Speaker 8: It didn't matter if you were a woman, you worked
Speaker 8: in textiles, Like even if that was just in your home,
Speaker 8: you were making yarn, you were making cloth like that.
Speaker 8: It wasn't a thing that you could just go to
Speaker 8: the store and buy until about the late nineteenth century, right, So,
Speaker 8: like a spinning wheel was not just something that existed,
Speaker 8: it was commonplace, and every woman in the world at
Speaker 8: that time, in the in the in their world, i
Speaker 8: should say, worked a spinning wheel. It didn't matter if
Speaker 8: they were a noble woman or a or a peasant.
Speaker 8: It didn't matter you you worked a spinning wheel because
Speaker 8: it was literally the cornerstone of the economy. And so
Speaker 8: when that curse happens, her father, who is a king,
Speaker 8: outlaws spinning wheels. No, right, And most people are like, well, yeah,
Speaker 8: that makes sense, he doesn't want to start to die.
Speaker 8: I'm like, no, that is like at the time, people
Speaker 8: would have heard that and been like he did what
Speaker 8: because like that would be like, you know, it'd be
Speaker 8: like outlawing, it'd be like outlying iPhones. Yeah, you know
Speaker 8: what I mean, Like they'd be like the President of
Speaker 8: the United States found out, well, my daughter's been cursed.
Speaker 8: In the first moment she touches an iPhone, He'll he'll,
Speaker 8: he'll fall asleep for a hundred years. If I'm an
Speaker 8: outlaw iPhone. You know what that would do to the
Speaker 8: economy of this country? Right, so many reasons it would.
Speaker 8: It would just it would absolutely cause pandemonium. And that's
Speaker 8: what would have happened. But because we are not we're
Speaker 8: reading it from a modern point of view, none of
Speaker 8: that stuff gets explained. So the the impact that certain
Speaker 8: parts of those stories should have gets lost, right, And
Speaker 8: so like that's why I feel like like we need
Speaker 8: we need a book that can that can really reintroduce
Speaker 8: this generation to these stories, because those stories are great.
Speaker 8: There there is a part I keep you go on this, Okay,
Speaker 8: So later on after Sleeping Beauty wakes up, we're not
Speaker 8: gonna get into the whole problematic issue with that, the
Speaker 8: fact that like her age and a bunch of other stuff,
Speaker 8: but she has she has two children, and uh her,
Speaker 8: the Prince's mother in Sleeping Beauty was an ogre. He
Speaker 8: was like part ogre. They don't explain why, but she
Speaker 8: was so Sleeping Uny's mother in law was part Ogre. Well,
Speaker 8: the prince had to go off for war for a while, right,
Speaker 8: and the Ogre queen decides that she wants to eat
Speaker 8: Sleeping Beauty's children. So uh, she tells the the the
Speaker 8: cook in the castle to basically go butcher the little
Speaker 8: the little girl first, and he goes and can't do it.
Speaker 8: He hides her in his house with his wife and
Speaker 8: goes like, butcher's a lamb and serves that to the queen.
Speaker 8: Apparently she can't tell the difference, and she's like, well
Speaker 8: that was delicious. Now go kill the little boy three
Speaker 8: years old, three years old, and and serve him up
Speaker 8: to me too. So here's the crazy thing. He goes
Speaker 8: into the courtyard to find the kid, and this is
Speaker 8: I'm not making this up. He finds the boy in
Speaker 8: the courtyard fencing with a monkey. OK. I'm gonna let
Speaker 8: those words sink in for a second. Yeah, with a monkey.
Speaker 8: And then they just continue the story like they didn't
Speaker 8: just say that, Like like they they don't explain it.
Speaker 8: They don't explain it at all. Why is there a monkey?
Speaker 8: Why are they fencing? Why is a three year old
Speaker 8: being left unattended in a courtyard to short play with
Speaker 8: a primate, like not mentioned, not explained at all. But
Speaker 8: that's the kind of crazy stuff that I love though, Like,
Speaker 8: that is absolutely amazing that they thought that that was
Speaker 8: an OK thing to just pass into a story and
Speaker 8: not explain at all. That's awesome.
Speaker 3: It is amazing.
Speaker 8: One of my favorite moments is Sleeping Beauty. When I
Speaker 8: first read it, I was like I had to go
Speaker 8: back and reread that sentence like three times or I realized,
Speaker 8: like they that was exactly what it said.
Speaker 3: Do you have any idea what they meant?
Speaker 8: Yeah, they meant that he was fencing with a monkey.
Speaker 8: So here's the thing. So apparently in France, which this
Speaker 8: has been Charles's Farrall's version of Sleeping Beauty in the Wood,
Speaker 8: and in France at that time when it was written,
Speaker 8: it was fashionable you have like like primates, like small
Speaker 8: monkeys as pets for your children. It didn't last long
Speaker 8: apparently though, most likely because some kids got their faces
Speaker 8: ripped off. Yeah, Like monkeys are cute until they're not.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Even mcln mess you up in large groups, so you
Speaker 8: know they Yeah, So it wasn't an unusual and The
Speaker 8: fencing thing would have been something that you learned from
Speaker 8: childhood as noble, you know, if your father's noble or
Speaker 8: a knight. From the moment you're able to hold a stick,
Speaker 8: you're learning how to how to how to fence, how
Speaker 8: to fight. Okay, so that that part would have been normal,
Speaker 8: But I think it was to basically say, well, of
Speaker 8: course he has the monkey, he's the son of a friend.
Speaker 8: You know, that's you know, of course that's fashionable right now, right,
Speaker 8: but that's the Those are the kinds of things I
Speaker 8: feel like we we we we lose them, especially when
Speaker 8: Disney does stuff, because when Disney does that, you lose.
Speaker 8: You lose the tragedy. You always lose the steaks, you
Speaker 8: lose the things that really those stories are told, and
Speaker 8: yes they're dark, and yes they're hard, but you have
Speaker 8: to remember that these are kids growing up in very dark,
Speaker 8: very hard time, and they needed stories to help them
Speaker 8: understand how to navigate that without going crazy as a child,
Speaker 8: which is hard. You know. That's why I always say that,
Speaker 8: like the moral, especially the German fairy tales, is that
Speaker 8: the stupid ones get eaten. You know, That's that's literally
Speaker 8: most German fairy tales. You look at it's like, hey,
Speaker 8: look at this kid. This kid was stupid. This kid
Speaker 8: got eaten.
Speaker 12: See this kid over here, this kid was smart. This
Speaker 12: kid didn't get eaten. Don't be like the stupid kid.
Speaker 12: Be like the smart kid, you know, like like Little
Speaker 12: Red Riding Hood, very stupid kid. And what I love
Speaker 12: is in the original.
Speaker 8: Little Red Riding Hood or actually text tegu it's wrote caption,
Speaker 8: which is red cap writing hood was the French version
Speaker 8: because the Germans didn't know what a writing hood was.
Speaker 8: They had read was a red velvet cap. But in
Speaker 8: the German version of the original Little Red Riding Hood,
Speaker 8: she gets eaten and that's the end of the story,
Speaker 8: Like that's it the wolf fader. Yeah, it is with
Speaker 8: her saying, well, you know, grandma, what great what of
Speaker 8: what big teeth you have? And it's better to eat
Speaker 8: you with my dear and he eats her the end,
Speaker 8: like yeah, this girl stupid, she can't tell that's a wolf.
Speaker 8: And her grandmother's like in drag wearing her grandmother's outfit,
Speaker 8: right and uh and and so yeah, she got eaten
Speaker 8: for being stupid. And then you have stories like Hansel
Speaker 8: and Gretel where you have these two kids who were
Speaker 8: abandoned by their parents. Oh and here's the other thing.
Speaker 8: The wicked step mother is a myth in and of itself.
Speaker 8: And I don't mean in the in the archetype of way.
Speaker 8: So in most of these stories where you have a
Speaker 8: wicked step mother, originally it was just their mom. It was.
Speaker 8: But Jakab and Wilhelm Grimm loved their mother. They loved
Speaker 8: her very very much. And so the idea of a
Speaker 8: of a birth mother being so horrible to her own
Speaker 8: children which just unfathomable to the two of them. So
Speaker 8: they switched it to stepmothers. And that's where we get
Speaker 8: the eat wicked stepmother archetype. They the grim brothers created it. Basically,
Speaker 8: it didn't exist before that. But Hanssel and Gretel were
Speaker 8: abandoned by their mother and their father left in the
Speaker 8: woods to fend for themselves. They get lost. They find
Speaker 8: a gingerbread house with a lady with bad eyesight who
Speaker 8: captures them and tries to fatten them up to eat them.
Speaker 8: But they're smart, they you know, like she goes to
Speaker 8: check a Hansole's finger every day to see if he's
Speaker 8: fattened up. I can't see. He uses a chicken bone
Speaker 8: and has to feel that. So every day his fingers
Speaker 8: still feels skinny to her, and they do that delay it,
Speaker 8: and when there's when they run out of ideas, Gretel
Speaker 8: comes to the rescue and just boots her into an oven.
Speaker 8: And they escaped because they use their wits. They kept
Speaker 8: their wits about them, and they escaped and they didn't
Speaker 8: get eaten. And they go home because they find it
Speaker 8: but like a chest full of like jewels in the house.
Speaker 8: And they go home and they find out their mom
Speaker 8: has died, and their dad is like grief stricken because
Speaker 8: he feels so bad about having abandoned them. And they
Speaker 8: live happily ever after, you know.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, So let's go back to Sleeping Beauty. Does
Speaker 3: the three year old also get saved?
Speaker 8: Yes, yes, he also gets saved. Both the kids get saved. However,
Speaker 8: then things take a turn for the worst because the
Speaker 8: kids are staying in the cook's house with his wife right,
Speaker 8: and the Sleeping Beauty is concerned. She hasn't seen her
Speaker 8: kids in a few days and she knows her mother
Speaker 8: in law is an okre you know, so he gets
Speaker 8: very worried and the cook finds her in the courtyard
Speaker 8: crying because she can't find her kids, and he takes
Speaker 8: her to his house and shows her that they're alive.
Speaker 8: And so she keeps going back to the house to
Speaker 8: meet them in secret because they don't want the over
Speaker 8: Queen to know that they're alive.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 8: The one day, the boy was acting up and so
Speaker 8: she was thanking him, she was disciplining him and uh,
Speaker 8: and the over Queen walked by and heard it and
Speaker 8: realized they were still alive.
Speaker 5: Mmmm.
Speaker 8: This is where stuff gets really elaborate. So he has
Speaker 8: a pit dug and filled with poisonous vipers and snakes
Speaker 8: and lizards and like fighters, like every poisonous thing she
Speaker 8: can find. She has her venomous things she can find
Speaker 8: she has put in this pit. She has the cook
Speaker 8: and his wife sleeping beauty and her kids like like
Speaker 8: on their knees at the edge of this pit. She's
Speaker 8: gonna kick him in one way time, right and uh,
Speaker 8: and she's getting ready to execute them. And just at
Speaker 8: that moment, the prince comes back from war and it's like,
Speaker 8: what the heck is going on? It's like, you know, imagine, dude,
Speaker 8: you've been at war for a few years. You come
Speaker 8: back and you find you got your kid and your
Speaker 8: wife are tied up on their knees at the edge
Speaker 8: of a pit full of vipers.
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's your mom's got him there, Like, what's the.
Speaker 8: He's like, what are you doing? Why would you do this?
Speaker 8: And so, out of shame and guilt, the Ogre Queen
Speaker 8: throws herself into the pit of vipers and die and
Speaker 8: they all live happily ever after.
Speaker 16: Uh but yeah, but yeah, Sleeping Beauty is much crazier
Speaker 16: like than what Disney did, Like they like, I would
Speaker 16: love to see And here's my other issue is too,
Speaker 16: I feel like they like people always go to one
Speaker 16: extreme or another.
Speaker 8: They either want to do like the Disney happy version
Speaker 8: of a fairy tale or they want to take it
Speaker 8: super edgy dark, right right, you know, we're rope. Will
Speaker 8: still get the new horror movie from New Line Cinema
Speaker 8: like that that kind of thing, and and like it's
Speaker 8: not that, EASi, it's not. It's not all the way dark.
Speaker 8: It's definitely not all the way Disney. But there is right,
Speaker 8: there's this this this this middle ground, which is where
Speaker 8: most of us live, where we live in a you
Speaker 8: know we live in a fairly cushy world compared to
Speaker 8: the world where the kids were growing up when these
Speaker 8: tales were written. Town, you know, it was you were
Speaker 8: lucky if you made it like past infancy, and so
Speaker 8: from there you kind of had to be on your
Speaker 8: toes because a lot of stuff was out the case, right,
Speaker 8: and that included other people, you know.
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, well you know I love it, you know,
Speaker 9: as you're talking about this, I mean, it really drives
Speaker 9: home the fact of like, yeah, you know, like our
Speaker 9: children's stories now would be like oh, you know, you
Speaker 9: shouldn't lie.
Speaker 11: Or you should always do this or or whatever. But
Speaker 11: when you're in a place where mortality is such a.
Speaker 9: Looming presence all the time, you know, like you know,
Speaker 9: what's really good is like don't die, right, you know,
Speaker 9: we could worry about the other stuff, but if you're
Speaker 9: smart enough not to die, like we're doing good.
Speaker 8: Well that's that's right.
Speaker 3: Well, you also get that myth that people didn't live
Speaker 3: past like thirty five years old or whatever because that's
Speaker 3: the average age. Well that's because so many people died
Speaker 3: in childbirth and such.
Speaker 8: Oh god, yeah, yeah, and the moms like that's the thing.
Speaker 8: Was it just the kids. If you were a woman,
Speaker 8: you were lucky if you survived your first pregnancy, like
Speaker 8: you know, if someone went wrong during your pregnancy, there
Speaker 8: was no you know, there were no ultra sounds. There
Speaker 8: was you had. You had usually you had a witch
Speaker 8: to help you. And that's the other thing that drives
Speaker 8: me nuts about fairy tales is that the wicked witch
Speaker 8: part of fairy tales, the evil witch, that wasn't the
Speaker 8: word in those stories. That word got added later. Oh yeah,
Speaker 8: The words were usually things like hext and beasts or oh, okay,
Speaker 8: you know they were they were these were actual creatures.
Speaker 8: They were usually trolls or oh or the witch thing
Speaker 8: kind of got added later. And it really bothers me
Speaker 8: because I don't like the fact that the word witch
Speaker 8: got given a negative connotation. Of that because most people
Speaker 8: don't realize that the word witch actually has the same
Speaker 8: root as the word wits. The witch in your village
Speaker 8: was an old lady who had been around for a
Speaker 8: very long time and knew a lot of stuff. So
Speaker 8: when you had a problem, if you were sick, or
Speaker 8: you or you had an issue, you went to see
Speaker 8: the witch. You see, the smart lady who usually didn't
Speaker 8: live in town. She usually lived outside of the town.
Speaker 8: She probably didn't stand anyone because she was the only
Speaker 8: smart person in a village full idiot idiots exactly, you know.
Speaker 8: So you went to see her and she'd give you
Speaker 8: a magic potion which probably birch bark in, you know,
Speaker 8: for your fever or like like everyone. It's like the
Speaker 8: old saying, you know, the difference between technology magic a
Speaker 8: matter of education, you know. And I think a lot
Speaker 8: of times I often think the things that from miss
Speaker 8: and stuff that they said we're magical, we're probably just technology.
Speaker 8: But it's really hard to explain to people why you
Speaker 8: shouldn't do things like, you know, like I sometimes think
Speaker 8: that like like dietary restrictions in certain religions happened that way.
Speaker 8: It's like, hey, we keep eating the chicken, and we
Speaker 8: keep getting sick from eating the chicken. Maybe we should
Speaker 8: stop eating the chicken because there's something like we're not
Speaker 8: obviously not doing something right, but we're preparing the chicken.
Speaker 8: Let's not eat the chicken. And they're like they're like, no, no,
Speaker 8: that doesn't add up, Like okay, well you know what
Speaker 8: God said, stop eating the chicken, right right? Like oh, well,
Speaker 8: in that case, let's stop eating the chicken. You know,
Speaker 8: I feel like that happened to a lot of smart
Speaker 8: people over thousands of years, where they're like, they're like,
Speaker 8: just tell them it's magic. Just tell them. It doesn't matter.
Speaker 8: They're not going to understand you anyway, man, Just tell
Speaker 8: them it's magic and they'll double leave.
Speaker 3: All right, Yeah, we gotta take a break. We'll be
Speaker 3: right back quick midshow break. Here contact info and a recommendation.
Speaker 3: Contact info is very simple. Go to where didthroadgo dot com.
Speaker 3: That will give you everything you could possibly need, links
Speaker 3: to all our social media, physical mailing addresses, everything is there,
Speaker 3: and access to all the episodes all the way back
Speaker 3: to the first one. Plus you can become a patron
Speaker 3: by clicking on the big Patreon link and that we'll
Speaker 3: get you extra content with every show. It'll get you
Speaker 3: to the shows a week or two early commercial free,
Speaker 3: shouldn't say every show, extra content with almost every show,
Speaker 3: and then extra stuff beyond that as well. And it's
Speaker 3: only three dollars a month, so if you like what
Speaker 3: you're hearing, you can get a lot more of it,
Speaker 3: and you can get it without ads and much sooner.
Speaker 3: All right. As for a recommendation. I'm not entirely sure
Speaker 3: what to recommend this week. I guess I guess I'll
Speaker 3: recommend depending on how you feel about the other two
Speaker 3: movies Evil Dead, Burn It's okay. I have not been
Speaker 3: a huge fan of the new series. I love I
Speaker 3: love Evil Dead too. I really like Army at Darkness,
Speaker 3: the original one. I mean, it is what it is.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's it's as great in retrospect, but yeah,
Speaker 3: and I like the Astros as a living dead. I
Speaker 3: did not like the first remake of Evil Dead. Second
Speaker 3: one was okay. This one it's all right. If it
Speaker 3: wasn't an Evil Dead movie, I think I might like
Speaker 3: it more. I think tying it into Evil Dead kind
Speaker 3: of kind of ruins it. But it was. It was decent.
Speaker 3: So if you like those those movies, yeah, you'll probably
Speaker 3: like this one. I guess that's my recommendation for this week.
Speaker 3: And now back to the show.
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Speaker 3: You're listening to Where DoD the Road Go. I'm here
Speaker 3: with Saxon and Nathan Brown, who's been telling us fairy tales,
Speaker 3: and I've been thoroughly enjoying that. But you have a
Speaker 3: you have a new book coming out.
Speaker 8: I do, I do.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 8: It's it's the third in a series I've been doing these, uh,
Speaker 8: these illustrated encyclopedias for DK. The next one coming out
Speaker 8: is called The Unexplained, comes out on August eleventh, it's
Speaker 8: also my birthday. It's already available for pre order and
Speaker 8: a lot of it is dealing with, you know, cryptids
Speaker 8: and unsolved mysteries, disappearances, got ship, stuff like that, and
Speaker 8: it's just kind of a It's for readers eight to
Speaker 8: fourteen and it covers a lot of ground.
Speaker 3: So what's the goal.
Speaker 8: You know for me writing this one? Or I text
Speaker 8: I'm not the writer on I'm the consultant. I did
Speaker 8: did do some writing on it, but uh, these days
Speaker 8: they for these kinds of projects, they used the term
Speaker 8: consultant instead of writer. But uh, for this book, one
Speaker 8: of my goals was I wanted to present a book
Speaker 8: that dealt with with stuff that doesn't have rational that
Speaker 8: doesn't seem to have rational explanations, right, yeah, and try
Speaker 8: to I tried to keep the mystery while also making
Speaker 8: sure that the kids get get that rational explanation. Hey, yes,
Speaker 8: we we this is the mysterious thing, and this may
Speaker 8: be a thing that is. However, here's some possible rational
Speaker 8: explanations for these days. Because I worked for a very
Speaker 8: brief period of times schemeonologist, and uh, you know, came
Speaker 8: across a lot of people who thought that the day
Speaker 8: or eleven was even said, right, and they weren't you know,
Speaker 8: they had a mental illness or they had a brain
Speaker 8: tumor yeah there was something, you know, there was, but
Speaker 8: but but everyone wanted to rush to the supernatural explanation
Speaker 8: and and sometimes, uh, you know, our brains do weird
Speaker 8: stuff to us. Yes, and like one of the things
Speaker 8: we deal with a lot in the book. Uh and
Speaker 8: and I also did in the in the Supernatural Creatures book,
Speaker 8: we deal with a lot of cryptid and and yes,
Speaker 8: there there definitely are animals out there that we haven't discovered,
Speaker 8: you know, they like there was the frilled shark is
Speaker 8: a great example of that. For the longest time, people
Speaker 8: thought the frilled shark was a mythological creature because the
Speaker 8: Japanese had written about it and they had pictures of it,
Speaker 8: but no one had ever seen one outside of Japan,
Speaker 8: and the Japanese insisted it was a real thing. And
Speaker 8: for for like a century, people thought this was a
Speaker 8: mythological creature until after a tsunami one of them washed
Speaker 8: up and uh, and they were like, holy crap, it's
Speaker 8: an actual creature. But it's it's a it's a deep
Speaker 8: sea shark. And so you know, they they can't really
Speaker 8: come to the surface because they kind of explode when
Speaker 8: they do that. So so you know, it's it's a
Speaker 8: deep sea shark, but it is a real thing. And
Speaker 8: so it was something that fishermen had seen. Uh. But
Speaker 8: but you know, yeah, it wasn't something that was normal.
Speaker 8: So there are obviously creatures out there that we haven't found.
Speaker 8: But at the same time, you have to leave room
Speaker 8: for rational explanations such as you know, animal encounter hysteria
Speaker 8: is a big one. And what that is is when
Speaker 8: when you're in a certain environment, there are certain animals
Speaker 8: you expect to see, right, okay, But when you suddenly
Speaker 8: encounter an animal in an environment where it does not belong,
Speaker 8: your brain stops seeing an animal and immediately goes to monster. Sure,
Speaker 8: and and it's a it's a panic, it's a fight
Speaker 8: or flight mechanism. It's it's it's it's hard wired into
Speaker 8: our brains to protect us because for all we know
Speaker 8: that animals are predator. We don't know, so our brain
Speaker 8: floods us with with with adrenaline and panic.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Yeah, And you know, the Skunk Cape is a great
Speaker 8: example of that. Skuncape is kind of like a Bigfoot
Speaker 8: of Florida, right, ye, right, I've been to the Skuncape Museum.
Speaker 8: If you ever get a chance, highly recommend that the
Speaker 8: guy that owns it is absolute lunistic. Highly recommend checking
Speaker 8: out the Skuncap Museum. If you're ever an alligator rally
Speaker 8: But what I think probably happened with the skunt cape
Speaker 8: is that when by all accounts people who've seen it,
Speaker 8: it was covered in moss, covered in grass, it's smelled
Speaker 8: very musky and earthy. Right. Well, here's the thing. Guess
Speaker 8: what also smells really musky and earthy male gorillas. So
Speaker 8: here in Florida we have long had a very very
Speaker 8: lucrative and very very illegal exotic animal trade that has
Speaker 8: been going on. What I think probably happened was there
Speaker 8: was some exotic animal dealer in Miami somewhere near the Everglades.
Speaker 8: Somewhere along the way, a deal went wrong in an
Speaker 8: ape got loose, right, and and so you got a
Speaker 8: gorilla wandering around the everglades, which it doesn't really understand
Speaker 8: the environment, so it gets covered in moths, it gets
Speaker 8: covered in grass because it doesn't really know what it's doing,
Speaker 8: and then it encounters a person, and the person panics
Speaker 8: because who expects to see a gorilla in the everglades? Right,
Speaker 8: And but of course it's smell, because gorillas have a
Speaker 8: very very strong, like musky smell. It's it's it is
Speaker 8: a it is how it shows that they're like a
Speaker 8: certain area of their of the pecking order. Basically, it's
Speaker 8: based on your skin, which I always thought was a
Speaker 8: weird thing. But uh but you know, so, yes, you
Speaker 8: see that new panic. It's the same reason that like
Speaker 8: people keep thinking coyotes and Texas or two pacabras. Well yeah,
Speaker 8: because well, yeah, because they have decades of inbreeding and
Speaker 8: Maine and so they look they you can't even recognize
Speaker 8: them as coyotes anymore. And so yeah, they look like monsters.
Speaker 8: But the originalicabra was invented by a and was supposed
Speaker 8: to be a joke. Yeah, and you end up with
Speaker 8: stuff like that where, yes, is there a possibility there's
Speaker 8: something mysterious out there. Absolutely, you should always leave room
Speaker 8: for that. But also you have to be able to
Speaker 8: look at the irrational side of things as well.
Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, And I mean I mean the thing about Okay,
Speaker 3: let's take bigfoot for instance. There you have big foot
Speaker 3: sightings pretty much everywhere across the world. They name them
Speaker 3: different things, you know, and it goes back to aboriginal
Speaker 3: cultures and stuff. So the likelihood of people are actually
Speaker 3: experiencing something is high. However, for there to be a
Speaker 3: breeding group of large apes that's escaping our notice in
Speaker 3: populated areas is pretty much impossible, right, which leads as
Speaker 3: to what are we witnessing and in some cases may
Speaker 3: be exactly that if like Tim Renner did a book
Speaker 3: on old newspaper accounts, and a lot of times people
Speaker 3: would describe it as they saw a gorilla. But the
Speaker 3: problem is there were too many gorilla sightings in Pennsylvania
Speaker 3: and not enough sources for the gorillas, you know, right, right.
Speaker 3: And my way of looking at it is people are
Speaker 3: encountering something they they don't really have a paradigm for, right,
Speaker 3: and so their brain is just like like especially one
Speaker 3: off monster encounters, I think their brain just goes, this
Speaker 3: is something I don't know. I don't know what this is. Uh,
Speaker 3: things I don't know are scary. What else is scary?
Speaker 3: When monsters are scary? Okay, that's a monster, and you
Speaker 3: don't go through that process, but your brain does it
Speaker 3: in a millisecond, and now you're seeing a monster and
Speaker 3: you're like, oh my god, there's a monster, you know, right?
Speaker 8: Yea, that's and and it also happens outside of that.
Speaker 8: Like one of my favorites is I don't know if
Speaker 8: you guys ever heard of the werewolf of Defiance, Ohio.
Speaker 8: I don't think so, because I told you about this
Speaker 8: and this is a you to tell it. In nineteen
Speaker 8: seventy two, right, the town of Defiance, Ohio was basically
Speaker 8: terrorized by a quote unquote werewolf for several days. And
Speaker 8: it started out with a railroad worker who was working
Speaker 8: at the near the train and he's trying to hook
Speaker 8: a couple of cars together and he suddenly gets smacked
Speaker 8: across the back of the head with a two by
Speaker 8: four and he turns around and it's a werewolf holding
Speaker 8: a two by four and then robs him and runs away.
Speaker 8: A couple nights later, like he tells some people this story.
Speaker 14: At this point, no one believes him, which because I mean,
Speaker 14: come on, it sounds insane, right. So a couple nights later,
Speaker 14: he and another railroad worker are working together and they
Speaker 14: see it out in the bushes like staring at him, right,
Speaker 14: and he's like, He's like, see, I told you this
Speaker 14: thing was really He's like, oh, we got to go
Speaker 14: to the cop.
Speaker 8: They go to the cops and they file a police
Speaker 8: for the police are like okay, like this is an issue.
Speaker 8: Then around that same time, as they're leaving, a bunch
Speaker 8: of teenagers come running in streaming bloody murder and panicking
Speaker 8: because they encountered a werewolf. And so there are several
Speaker 8: attacks over over the span of like several days by
Speaker 8: this werewolf, most of them involving robbery and the cops.
Speaker 8: I kid you not. I only learned this recently because
Speaker 8: I went back and looked back at the research, so
Speaker 8: I hadn't hadn't read it a long time. I forgot
Speaker 8: about this this part. The cops actually had to publish
Speaker 8: something in the local newspaper saying, listen, this is not
Speaker 8: a were wolf. This is a guy in a Halloween match,
Speaker 8: because because that is what it was. It was a
Speaker 8: guy in a Halloween match. Yeah, but this was nineteen
Speaker 8: seventy two and those those kind of realistic three D
Speaker 8: latex Halloween masks were new around that time. What I
Speaker 8: think you probably had was some kind of a transient
Speaker 8: guy who was who was like a Traine hopper who
Speaker 8: got into town and did not have enough money. It's like, okay,
Speaker 8: so I got to like basically like rob a few people, right,
Speaker 8: but I do not have anything. But this werewolf mask
Speaker 8: come across. It's like you put the werewolf mask on
Speaker 8: and and and hit a guy over ahead with a
Speaker 8: two by four. Right, yeah, I found some lumber somewhere
Speaker 8: out there right here, you know, yeah, it was probably
Speaker 8: a railroad tie or something. But he he hits the
Speaker 8: guy with a piece of wood and like that right there.
Speaker 8: I'm like you if you you're thinking rationally, you're like, okay,
Speaker 8: like why would a werewolf need a two by four?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 8: Yeah, right, Like I figured like he could probably handle
Speaker 8: me on his own without without lumber for assistance. But
Speaker 8: what I love is that to this day in Defiance, Ohio,
Speaker 8: like it's it's kind of like that's their sasquatch, that's
Speaker 8: their that's their luckness monster. You know. They they love
Speaker 8: talking about the werewolf of Defiance, Ohio, even though like
Speaker 8: even at the time the cops were like, this is
Speaker 8: not a werewolf. This guy in Halloween masks robbing people.
Speaker 3: I have heard that before. Now now that you've told it,
Speaker 3: I remember it.
Speaker 8: Oh God, it's such a crazy But that's the kind
Speaker 8: of stuff because because the town absolutely went nuts by
Speaker 8: like the third night, they were they were organizing mobs,
Speaker 8: like they had, you know, gun wielding guys in back
Speaker 8: of trucks. The whole deal. You know, and uh in
Speaker 8: the cops were like, Okay, this is good. Someone's gonna
Speaker 8: get killed. So they're trying to like calm everybody down,
Speaker 8: but no one's listening to them, so they apparently they
Speaker 8: had to publish it in the paper.
Speaker 9: It's so funny because it's kind of like, all right,
Speaker 9: everybody's having a little too much fun.
Speaker 8: Uh, party's over, guys, you know, I know, right, like,
Speaker 8: because you know what's so funny is a probably by
Speaker 8: that point, this guy was already gone. Yeah, he got
Speaker 8: a few bucks in his pocket. He hopped on a
Speaker 8: train and left out.
Speaker 3: Sure with his werewolf mast Right, what you should have
Speaker 3: you covered in this book? Cryptids and what other type
Speaker 3: of stuff?
Speaker 8: Uh? We talk about disappearances as a big one, you know,
Speaker 8: like like we talked about Amelia Earhart a little bit,
Speaker 8: and then you know, the the evidence of of you know,
Speaker 8: there are a lot of people who think that that
Speaker 8: mysteries solved, and I would say it's more solved than
Speaker 8: it was sure, and that we definitely have evidence of
Speaker 8: of what happened to her, But what became of her
Speaker 8: we're not entirely sure of. We we do know that
Speaker 8: she most likely survived her crash and and lived on
Speaker 8: an island for a while. There's evidence to support that,
Speaker 8: but not enough to be like concrete. We also talk
Speaker 8: about ghost ships, which is a phenomenon that's that's happened,
Speaker 8: you know, ever since there have been ships on on
Speaker 8: the sea. To this day, we have ghost ships that
Speaker 8: where you know where you'll find a ship and the
Speaker 8: crew is gone and the cargo may or may not
Speaker 8: be gone and there's just no one on it anymore.
Speaker 8: Back in the day, most likely piracy was the cause.
Speaker 8: You know, you came on you you killed her, enslaved
Speaker 8: the crew, You took what you could carry or what
Speaker 8: what what you felt was valuable and easy to make
Speaker 8: a make money on, and you left the rest. Yeah,
Speaker 8: and then you know, stealing another ship. A lot of
Speaker 8: people are like, well, why wouldn't they just take the ship?
Speaker 8: You had to have a crew, right, right, that's a
Speaker 8: lot of people to keep up, you know, I mean
Speaker 8: you even need that or Captain Jack Sparrow because apparently
Speaker 8: he can do it by himself. But like but yeah,
Speaker 8: like like that was people like like stealing a ship
Speaker 8: with thing, but like no one guy couldn't run a
Speaker 8: ship like you needed a crew of probably about a
Speaker 8: dozen guys just to do the bare bone stuff that
Speaker 8: you needed to do to sail a ship at that time.
Speaker 8: So it didn't make sense to steal the ship. It
Speaker 8: made sense to steal the cargo and leave the ship afloat,
Speaker 8: but you also didn't want people reporting you. So a
Speaker 8: lot of times the crew would either get get murdered
Speaker 8: or they would be sold as slaves. That happened a lot,
Speaker 8: or they would join the pirate crew. That happened sometimes too.
Speaker 8: But today we still get ghost ships. We still have
Speaker 8: ships to show up, but today it's a much different reason.
Speaker 8: There's actually two or three reasons that we find ghost
Speaker 8: ships now. One is that you have these kind of
Speaker 8: aging vessels that are being used for unscrupulous things. You know, like,
Speaker 8: for example, let's take a load of opium from Afghanistan,
Speaker 8: bring it out to the international waters, have some cigarette
Speaker 8: red boat boats come out meet us in the International
Speaker 8: National waters. We load those up with with the opium,
Speaker 8: and we leave the derelict ship that we bought behind,
Speaker 8: and then that gets found. Another reason that it happens
Speaker 8: uh is uh so uh hips are kind of weird.
Speaker 8: They're they're they're registered to certain countries for certain things, right,
Speaker 8: but once a ship reaches a certain age, getting rid
Speaker 8: of it is really difficult, like those gigantic cargo ships. Yeah,
Speaker 8: so a lot of times it's easier to just kind
Speaker 8: of oop cut the moorings. They're like, oh, no, he
Speaker 8: came out and it was gone. No. No, you know,
Speaker 8: it'll turn up somewhere and someone will see it and
Speaker 8: they'll report it. Maybe a coast guard gets out there
Speaker 8: and finds it, maybe they don't. Uh, But that that
Speaker 8: kind of stuff happens quite a bit still even to
Speaker 8: this day. There you have ships. Then of course you
Speaker 8: have ships the disappear, which you know, back in the
Speaker 8: day you had the whole from you to triangle, I
Speaker 8: was much I was very concerned about that as a child.
Speaker 8: It turned out to not nearly be the issue that
Speaker 8: I thought it was going to be. But for you
Speaker 8: to triangle, you know, that's the other one where you know,
Speaker 8: people are like, oh, so many, so many ships and
Speaker 8: planes and stuff have gone missing in the triangle. Yeah,
Speaker 8: that's that's kind of true of anywhere over the ocean.
Speaker 8: Like I can draw you a a I can draw
Speaker 8: a triangle over any stretch of oceans just between any
Speaker 8: two major continents, and I can probably show you a
Speaker 8: just as many ships that have gone missing and planes
Speaker 8: that have gone missing in that area. Yeah, Trigle, right right.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean also you have a if I remember it,
Speaker 3: you have a conflirt. You know, you like weird weather
Speaker 3: in the Bermuda Triangle, which is not weird in the
Speaker 3: like paranormal sense, but it's just the location and the
Speaker 3: way currents and stuff go.
Speaker 8: Oh one percent, you get you have you have updraft heat,
Speaker 8: you have hot to cold changes, you have pressure changes,
Speaker 8: you have sudden storms, and there's all kinds of stuff
Speaker 8: that turns out the Atlantic's a freaky place. Uh, you know,
Speaker 8: we get a lot of hurricanes. I live in Florida.
Speaker 8: You know, it's it's it's it's a turbulent ocean, and
Speaker 8: you know, and and he had to remember that the
Speaker 8: bulk of those disappearances happened a while back. Right, when
Speaker 8: was the last time you heard of someone disappearing in
Speaker 8: the Rama dragon?
Speaker 3: What would it even be noted that it was the
Speaker 3: Meta triangle at this point, I mean, they.
Speaker 8: Would be noted where it was, and probably at that
Speaker 8: point the Internet somebody would be.
Speaker 3: Like, hey, that's the true.
Speaker 8: True, somebody would bring it up. Uh, but you know,
Speaker 8: but it doesn't really happen anymore. That's because we have
Speaker 8: yes now, right, because we have we have locator beacons,
Speaker 8: and we have things that if something does go down,
Speaker 8: we at least don't where it went down, you know. Uh.
Speaker 8: Back then, all we had were flight plans, you know.
Speaker 8: And that's why they never found Amelia Airhart because I mean,
Speaker 8: everybody knew she was out there. It wasn't like no
Speaker 8: one knew where she was going. Yeah, but the problem
Speaker 8: was she had a flight plan and most likely she
Speaker 8: something caused her to accidentally deviate from that flight plan,
Speaker 8: and so they didn't know where to start looking. At
Speaker 8: that point. All they knew was where she was supposed
Speaker 8: to be. They couldn't tell you where she ended up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well you know, and there there are you know,
Speaker 3: the paranormal style stories that come out of them Permuta triangle,
Speaker 3: which may be true. But also you find those same
Speaker 3: stories other places too, Like it's not specific to the
Speaker 3: Permuta triangle. So it's not like, oh, here's proof that
Speaker 3: the Bermeter triangle is weird. It's like, no, sometimes weird
Speaker 3: things just happen.
Speaker 8: Oh absolutely, And I mean and pilots, I mean, my
Speaker 8: my significant others. He does, she does, She's done some
Speaker 8: some recreational uh air. I don't know what it's called
Speaker 8: it flying. I guess, uh. You get her pilot's license
Speaker 8: and he you know, uh, you know that's one thing
Speaker 8: with the people just see weird stuff in the air.
Speaker 8: Sometimes people experience with stuffing the air. And these aren't
Speaker 8: crazy people either, you know, these are you know, you
Speaker 8: can't be dumb and fly a plane. Sorry, you can't
Speaker 8: do it. You You kind of gotta have your with
Speaker 8: the mess to be able to fly. I couldn't fly
Speaker 8: a plane, and I have a master's degree. I couldn't
Speaker 8: do it. But but you know, they they these aren't
Speaker 8: guys that panic a lot of the time. You know,
Speaker 8: these are these are guys that have done this a
Speaker 8: billion times. So when they see something that that they
Speaker 8: can't explain, yes, I take notice. And there's definitely I
Speaker 8: think electromagnetic disturbances that we don't understand, yep. And that's
Speaker 8: one thing I always That's why I always say like,
Speaker 8: even though there are rational explanations, always leave room for
Speaker 8: what we don't know. Yeah, because to be honest, as
Speaker 8: a species, we don't know what we don't know. Uh
Speaker 8: ist uh. We often forget that we're kind of we're
Speaker 8: kind of limited because we're three dimensional beings. We're aware
Speaker 8: that there are other dimensions, but we don't experience in
Speaker 8: the sense that we can't we can't experience probability, you know.
Speaker 8: We we know that there's a there are probability lines
Speaker 8: that that exist in up to eight other demands, but
Speaker 8: we can't see them. Well, we can't.
Speaker 3: We don't even know that that's still even just a theory.
Speaker 8: Well right, yeah, no, that's the thing. And uh, you
Speaker 8: know that we we understand time, but we don't we
Speaker 8: understand space, but we don't at the same time understand
Speaker 8: those things exactly because we're we are we are very
Speaker 8: restricted by what we can sense and what we can
Speaker 8: detect with tech, our current technology. And to believe that
Speaker 8: that there's nothing out there that that exists around us
Speaker 8: that we just can't see, I think is extremely hooprius.
Speaker 8: It's extreme hoopers. This is because one of my favorite
Speaker 8: ways to kind of explain it is that you talk
Speaker 8: about like if a three dimensional being were to encounter
Speaker 8: a one dimensional being, right right, and that that would
Speaker 8: mean that like a sheet of papers that things whole exist.
Speaker 8: I could wave my hand all around that sheet of
Speaker 8: paper and it would not know that I exist until
Speaker 8: I put my finger on the feet of paper, and
Speaker 8: then suddenly I would be in front of it.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 8: And then the moment I take my finger off, how
Speaker 8: would be gone? Like I feel like that's kind of
Speaker 8: what would happen to exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's also and we also only perceive small
Speaker 3: amounts of our reality as it is, so the stuff
Speaker 3: we can perceive, our brain kind of filters, and you know,
Speaker 3: there's there's frequencies and stuff that we're not sensitive to
Speaker 3: that maybe under certain circumstances we are.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 9: Well, you know we've all talked about this at different times,
Speaker 9: and Nathan and I have talked about it.
Speaker 8: You know, your your.
Speaker 9: Vision and then all of your senses are for survival. Yeah,
Speaker 9: they're not for taking in all available information that it
Speaker 9: can perceive. And so just like you're saying, right, and
Speaker 9: all this stuff gets filtered out. But like even the
Speaker 9: things that your eyes can pick up, you know, within
Speaker 9: the bands of life that it can actually see, you
Speaker 9: don't know what your brain is taken out before you're
Speaker 9: aware of it, because it's decided that that's the important
Speaker 9: for your survival, which is just wild to me to
Speaker 9: think about. But you know that was goes back to
Speaker 9: the invisible gorilla that we've we've talked about so much
Speaker 9: on the show, and.
Speaker 11: I think everybody, most of the listeners will know that.
Speaker 9: But I'm sure if you haven't, you've seen the video
Speaker 9: of the people passing the ball back and forth and
Speaker 9: they ask you to count how many times the ball
Speaker 9: gets passed.
Speaker 11: But then after that's.
Speaker 9: Done, it'll say, did you see the bear or the
Speaker 9: person in the bear costume?
Speaker 8: Whatever?
Speaker 9: We walk through, you know, the people passing the ball,
Speaker 9: and almost nobody sees the bear, and.
Speaker 11: Then you go back and.
Speaker 9: Watch it and you're like, oh my gosh, there was
Speaker 9: a guy in a bear costume through the.
Speaker 3: Whole time the illusion to focus. I'd also like to
Speaker 3: point out that this time I was not the one
Speaker 3: who brought up the invisible gorilla.
Speaker 8: That's true, that's true.
Speaker 11: It's just contagious now, I mean it is.
Speaker 3: It is an important thing. I mean, to understand how
Speaker 3: little we really do perceive. And then when you're adding
Speaker 3: paranormal stuff in that that isn't there in an agreed
Speaker 3: upon reality. It's like your brain doesn't know what to.
Speaker 8: Do with that. Yeah.
Speaker 9: Uh, this is one of the reasons I was excited
Speaker 9: to get Nathan to come on the show, because you know,
Speaker 9: he's got, you know, very open space for paranormal things
Speaker 9: like that, but he also you know, is very okay
Speaker 9: with like looking at things and be like, yeah, that
Speaker 9: sounds crazy, but it could just be this, you know,
Speaker 9: and something very mundane. And having his background not just
Speaker 9: with mythology but the demonology, which is just a being
Speaker 9: a demonologist is amazing to me, you know.
Speaker 8: And you've got people.
Speaker 9: Really like they're they're well being at stake in a
Speaker 9: lot of those situations that you're involved with, Nathan, and
Speaker 9: so I think that's such a cool.
Speaker 8: Balance that you've got going on. And I just have
Speaker 8: ADHD and really strong research skills. But yes, well you know,
Speaker 8: the deem knowledge thing, I haven't done that a really
Speaker 8: long time was when I was younger, and you know,
Speaker 8: I think a lot of the paranormal stuff, in my opinion,
Speaker 8: like what I'm looking for when I especially when I
Speaker 8: was involved with like I did some stuff with the
Speaker 8: guys from Paranormal State, the Paranormal Research Society, for a
Speaker 8: while and stuff. And you know, in my opinion, like
Speaker 8: if I'm looking for the paranormal, I'm looking for the paranormal.
Speaker 8: I'm not looking to play make believe.
Speaker 3: Well they're looking they're looking for ratings, right.
Speaker 8: Yes, and uh, And that's that's what kind of irked
Speaker 8: me with that, and and I but that's always my thing.
Speaker 8: It's like, well, what are we doing. Are we really
Speaker 8: trying to find evidence of the paranormal or are we
Speaker 8: are we trying to play make believe? Because if we're
Speaker 8: doing that, that's fine, but let's be honest about it
Speaker 8: at least, yeah, because you know, you know, I can't
Speaker 8: tell you how many ORB photos I've had to do
Speaker 8: with over the years. And I'm like, no, man, that's
Speaker 8: that's called your camera. That's all it is light reflect
Speaker 8: You're fine, there's not orbs everywhere, But not to say
Speaker 8: that there's not. Nothing gets captured on camera that is odd.
Speaker 8: But like, like it's in for me, it's a matter
Speaker 8: of trying to find it concrete evidence that I can
Speaker 8: point to. And and and here's the thing, like as
Speaker 8: demon knowledge, there were times, very few, there were some
Speaker 8: cases that I could not you know, there weren't explanations
Speaker 8: for well, it doesn't mean there wasn't one, It just
Speaker 8: meant I couldn't find.
Speaker 3: My favorite orbs story still was. I was in this
Speaker 3: like email group with this paranormal I didn't do anything
Speaker 3: with them, but I just looked to see what they,
Speaker 3: you know, what they were doing. And at one point
Speaker 3: they were at some graveyard in the middle of the
Speaker 3: night and they walked past the grave. It's all long
Speaker 3: grass hadn't been cut, and and before they get to
Speaker 3: the grave, someone took a picture. And then after they
Speaker 3: passed it, someone's like, I feel something, take a picture,
Speaker 3: and they turned around and took a picture with flash
Speaker 3: and it's filled with orbs and they're like, oh my god,
Speaker 3: look what we captured. And I'm like, that would be
Speaker 3: pollen bugs, dust.
Speaker 8: You know, like yeah, exactly, Yeah, there's a lot of
Speaker 8: stuff in the air, and light likes to reflect around
Speaker 8: all of it.
Speaker 3: So it's it's you know, I've had weird orb photos
Speaker 3: of my own, but I don't know what they are,
Speaker 3: and I can't rule out that they're just dust. It's
Speaker 3: more of the fact that they pop up in a
Speaker 3: weird way where it's like there really shouldn't be dust.
Speaker 3: I mean, Saxon and I had that happen.
Speaker 11: Oh, let's say we had that happened, uh.
Speaker 3: At the graveyard. Yeah, because first rocks fell from the
Speaker 3: sky on us. Yeah, and then and then we went
Speaker 3: to the graveyard and I took a bunch of pictures
Speaker 3: and and no, this is the middle of the day,
Speaker 3: no orbs anywhere. And then there's one picture where on
Speaker 3: every single tree there's an orb. That's cool, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: this is probably nothing but a coincidence, but that's weird.
Speaker 8: Well, that's also my thing because like the fact that
Speaker 8: like I don't feel like the existence of ones that
Speaker 8: aren't real necessarily debunks the possibility of them being real ever, right, right,
Speaker 8: if that makes sense, Like, just because a lot of
Speaker 8: people misidentify what they call orbs and photos doesn't mean
Speaker 8: there isn't something out there, oh shit, that that exists.
Speaker 8: It's the same with like like demon possession. Just because
Speaker 8: ninety nine percent of the people who think they're demon
Speaker 8: possessed actually something else going on, doesn't mean that there
Speaker 8: isn't that one person out there that aren't actually dealing
Speaker 8: with something supernatural, right, right, And I've seen it. You know,
Speaker 8: I've seen I've seen that, but I've also seen people
Speaker 8: who I like like that that like I would evaluate.
Speaker 8: I'm like, yeah, I get why they think this person,
Speaker 8: like I like, they sound weird, they their their bodies
Speaker 8: are conforting in weird ways they're doing and a lot
Speaker 8: of times it was it was neurological. A lot of
Speaker 8: it was neurological, like it was you know, brain tumors,
Speaker 8: it's frenny, uh, you know, uh strokes, like there were
Speaker 8: so many things. But but uh, and the reason that
Speaker 8: I worked is that is that so the Catholic Church,
Speaker 8: they have their own extorsis right, but they also have
Speaker 8: their own processes for evaluating a person before an exorcist
Speaker 8: even shows up. You know, there are doctors they have
Speaker 8: these people see there they they they they cancel out
Speaker 8: every possible rational explanation before an extorsist ever comes in
Speaker 8: and sees a person. Fortunately, procestans do not have that.
Speaker 8: So that was kind of how I ended up doing it.
Speaker 8: Was because when I was in my teens and early twenties,
Speaker 8: I was somewhat religious, and I was also into a
Speaker 8: lot of weird stuff. And in my in my teens,
Speaker 8: a youth pastor was like, hey, so we've got the situation.
Speaker 3: Well we are out of time, but we can continue
Speaker 3: this on a Patreon All right, Yeah, do you have
Speaker 3: a website.
Speaker 8: Do I have a website?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 8: You know what, I don't. Uh, but you can find
Speaker 8: me anywhere. To be honest, you just look up N R.
Speaker 8: Brown three seven n A T R P R O
Speaker 8: W N three seven. Just google that.
Speaker 3: You'll find me, okay. In the names of your your books.
Speaker 8: Oh dear God. Uh well, the most recent ones are
Speaker 8: legendary heroes, supernatural creatures, the Unexplained. I've also written The
Speaker 8: Mythology of Supernatural, The Mythology of grim The Complete Idiot's Guide,
Speaker 8: The World Mythology, The Complete as Guide to Wear Wolves,
Speaker 8: The Complete Idious Guide, the Zombies, The Everything Crap I
Speaker 8: Got for Fitness, book, Dead Come Home, The Rape of Lilith's.
Speaker 3: There's more, but we'll okay, okay, and tell people again
Speaker 3: about what they search for an eBay to find your
Speaker 3: your weird weapons, just search for vampire stakes.
Speaker 8: But the name of my shop is Warrior Wood and
Speaker 8: prop You can google Warrior Wood and Props and I
Speaker 8: come up pretty easily.
Speaker 3: All right, thank you so much.
Speaker 8: Enough if you just searched, Nathan Robert Brown. These days
Speaker 8: it comes up, so Someme's working all right.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thank you. I want to take a couple
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Speaker 13: I am the dream child Lilla, cloaked and haloed, hungers.
Speaker 13: The wind sings with her fingers across my silk.
Speaker 8: Fire.
Speaker 13: Heavens angels voice a sigh and languish in my skirts.
Speaker 13: I am the blasphemy of flowers, rife with tortured innocence.
Speaker 13: The sun loiters long above my bed of four horizons.
Speaker 13: Tho be stumble a drunken to it from me all
Speaker 13: day long, Pour it all all over me My thoughts
Speaker 13: do not a wait here, still not narryly. Each one
Speaker 13: is spinning a succubas, each one a promise to swallow
Speaker 13: your bloated dreams.
Speaker 8: Sup So.
Speaker 13: I am waity.
Speaker 8: H the long Please let's go far please Sarah.
Speaker 13: Side be bellow, we time, bellow, we nothing. I something
Speaker 13: sweeter than the sire.
Speaker 8: H Amen the play.
Speaker 13: Working Higher, No.
Speaker 9: Name God.
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