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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about him. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your Host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan.
Speaker 5: Zufanski, Good Evening, Mike Wathmeller and Douglas Thompson draw on
Speaker 5: previously secret LAPD Intelligent Files, a cash of FBI documents
Speaker 5: released to the authors in twenty twenty one, and extensive
Speaker 5: interviews with prime sources, including many who work with Frank
Speaker 5: Sinatra and many more who tracked his long and fatal
Speaker 5: association with the American mafia, notably his ongoing connection after
Speaker 5: his original godfather was assassinated. Sam Momo Giancana shared a
Speaker 5: lover with President John F. Kennedy sixteen days after the
Speaker 5: assassination of John F. Kennedy. On November thirtieth, nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 5: while the singer was consoling the president's widow, nineteen year
Speaker 5: old Frank Sinatra Junior was kidnapped at gunpoint from his
Speaker 5: hotel room in Lake Tahoe, Nevada. A two hundred and
Speaker 5: forty thousand dollars ransom was demanded from his father. While
Speaker 5: the FBI in Nevada and California law enforcement agencies sprang
Speaker 5: into action, Frank secretly contacted his mafia friends for help.
Speaker 5: The mafia believed they could free young Frank much more
Speaker 5: quickly through their underworld connections. In the end, nine people
Speaker 5: died having been beaten. For information revealed here as never
Speaker 5: before is the extent to which Sinatra was adopted by
Speaker 5: the mafia. They promoted his career and watched his back,
Speaker 5: and in return, Sinatra dan to their tune. New information
Speaker 5: disclosed here shows that Sinatra also offered to spy for
Speaker 5: the CIA. Inside sources say Sinatra wanted the CIA to
Speaker 5: intercede to stop an investigation to his gaming license in
Speaker 5: Las Vegas, but the CIA declined because they were already
Speaker 5: working with the Mob and were concerned Sinatra would learn
Speaker 5: of the mafia's connection to the CIA and leak it.
Speaker 5: The book that we're featuring this evening is Frank Sinatra
Speaker 5: and the Mafia Murders, with my special guests, journalist, author,
Speaker 5: and former organized crime detective Mike Rothmeller. Welcome back to
Speaker 5: the program, and thank you so much for this interview
Speaker 5: Mike roth Miller.
Speaker 4: My pleasan VI here.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much for this interview and congratulations on
Speaker 5: your latest book.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you.
Speaker 5: Let's start with your background. I just mentioned it organized crime,
Speaker 5: former organized crime in LAPD. Tell us about your background,
Speaker 5: the information that you were privy to you and Doug
Speaker 5: Liss Thompson, your co author, and the origins of this book,
Speaker 5: and all the research that was necessary.
Speaker 4: Sure. Well, my background. I started with the LAPD of
Speaker 4: was their ten years. I worked patrol, I was a
Speaker 4: training officer of control, I worked vice enforcement, and I
Speaker 4: became a sergeant, and I was a film supervisor and
Speaker 4: the last five years I was assigned to the Organized
Speaker 4: Prime Intelligence Division. And what then entailed is gathering intelligence
Speaker 4: on the mob, politicians, on anybody that wielded power, not
Speaker 4: only in southern California, but across the country in some
Speaker 4: cases in foreign countries. Of the fifty five detectives that
Speaker 4: were in there when I worked there, we never made
Speaker 4: one arrest. We were prohibited from making arrests because of
Speaker 4: the intelligence that we are gathering and how we were gathering.
Speaker 4: As an example, we had two guys in there who
Speaker 4: were wiretap et sports. That's all they did even though
Speaker 4: you couldn't get a wiretap. There were other guys that
Speaker 4: would do black bag jobs like the SBI you see
Speaker 4: break into a house, bring into a business in the
Speaker 4: middle of the night, or no date search. It gets
Speaker 4: the information they want and then leave. So that's what
Speaker 4: was going on. If you think of jig Or Hoover,
Speaker 4: what the FBI was doing, gathering dossiers on the rich,
Speaker 4: the famous, and politicians of power, that's exactly what LFP
Speaker 4: Intelligence was doing at the time. And that actually started
Speaker 4: in nineteen thirty two. That division started and it continued
Speaker 4: through the years. I had access to all of the
Speaker 4: secret dossiers and files on everybody you could imagine. There
Speaker 4: probably were fifty two hundred thousand people in the file
Speaker 4: as well, and of those were entertainers as you can imagine,
Speaker 4: Sinatra and Marilyn Monroe, politicians, the Kennedys, Jerry Brown, the
Speaker 4: governor of California, his father Pat Brown, former governor, and
Speaker 4: people various countries and with a emphasis on New York, Chicago, Detroit, Miami,
Speaker 4: Kansas City, and those areas of Las Vegas where there
Speaker 4: was a mob connection, but also where there were oh,
Speaker 4: let's just put it a lot of politicians that were
Speaker 4: in the pocket of the model, So that's where it
Speaker 4: came from. That's what I had access to. I had
Speaker 4: access to a lot of the very confidential information the
Speaker 4: FBI had because I was loaned to Partner Justice starting
Speaker 4: as Crime Strike Force in La so I was working
Speaker 4: with them a lot. Iris Intelligence provided us a lot
Speaker 4: of information and so forth. So that's where all the
Speaker 4: information that's coming from when I was doing that sort
Speaker 4: of work. Now, as far as this book gathering information,
Speaker 4: it went back to the information that I had privy
Speaker 4: to many years ago when I was doing that work.
Speaker 4: And then also I filed many freedom Information Acts and
Speaker 4: mandatory declassification reviews for information that has never been released
Speaker 4: by the FBI, the CIA, State Department, Secret Service, you
Speaker 4: name it. And I also got a lot of information
Speaker 4: out of the National Archives and out of old data
Speaker 4: banks that we subscribed to. So it was a wealth
Speaker 4: of information. And it was also a matter of running
Speaker 4: down former law enforcement people who had information back and
Speaker 4: also people who were close to Sinatra and knew what
Speaker 4: he was doing as far as this connection to the
Speaker 4: mob and what the Mob was doing for him. So
Speaker 4: we found quite a few of those people who were
Speaker 4: still around and they're willing to talk. So that's the
Speaker 4: background where the information came from.
Speaker 5: You write originally in the book chapter called the Sicilian
Speaker 5: and you talk about Frank Sinatra's Sicilian origins. Tell us
Speaker 5: a little bit about his background and what his parents did,
Speaker 5: and his ascension as a singer in America.
Speaker 4: It's very interesting where he was born in New Jersey
Speaker 4: and his father was a hanger honor of the mob
Speaker 4: back then. He would do some work for them. He
Speaker 4: wanted to be a boxer on his bartender and so forth,
Speaker 4: and he was running some errands for them, the better
Speaker 4: way of putting in. His mother was also involved in
Speaker 4: an abortion clinan and so Frank grew up watching the
Speaker 4: mob guys around him and watching his parents. So anything
Speaker 4: that was being done as a child that normally that
Speaker 4: your parents do when you grow up and their associates,
Speaker 4: you think it's all right, that's the way the world runs.
Speaker 4: And so that's where he grew up. And he started
Speaker 4: working very young in some bars and so forth, and
Speaker 4: he would sing as he got a little bit older,
Speaker 4: into his late keeens. He would sing for a sandwich
Speaker 4: and maybe a pack of cigarettes in the local bar
Speaker 4: that was run by some of the Mob guys, and
Speaker 4: that's where he got his first taste of the mob
Speaker 4: and a first introduction to the mob. And they liked him.
Speaker 4: He was a good kid. They thought he could sing,
Speaker 4: and so they became friends. And as time went, Bob,
Speaker 4: it was the Mob who Lucky Muciano some other guys
Speaker 4: through Willie Moriotty, who was his for better Terman's godfather,
Speaker 4: they put up fifty thousand dollars to advance his career,
Speaker 4: and that's what really longs him what we know today
Speaker 4: what happened for him.
Speaker 5: He also learned early on about breaking contracts because he
Speaker 5: had a contract where forty three percent of his money
Speaker 5: went to Tommy Dorsey. Tell us about that contract, right.
Speaker 4: People may have seen that before in a movie, but
Speaker 4: it was very true that Dorsey hadn't blocked in for
Speaker 4: Bedford for life and he wanted out of it. And
Speaker 4: so he went to his godfather of Willie Murriotty, and
Speaker 4: he along with another guy who was an enforcer and
Speaker 4: worked for Murder In Corporated, they went and paid him
Speaker 4: a visit Dorsey at his facility and they had to
Speaker 4: chat with him, said either you dropped the contract bight
Speaker 4: out for a dollar right now, or you're going to die.
Speaker 4: And the hitman pulled out a gun, put it up
Speaker 4: to him and said signed the contract away, in which
Speaker 4: he did. And because of that, Frank was very very happy.
Speaker 4: One because he got out of it. But two now
Speaker 4: he owed the mob a great deal and he paid
Speaker 4: for his entire life. Tell us about his ascension as
Speaker 4: a performer, and you had mentioned that the mob was
Speaker 4: spending money to be able to help his career, but
Speaker 4: tell us how the mafia controlled the clubs and in
Speaker 4: his ascension as a performer, and before we introduced Sydney
Speaker 4: Korshak and Johnny ROSSELLI, Yeah, well he was, I said,
Speaker 4: performing in mob clubs for better from whether they were
Speaker 4: large or small, round New Jersey than to New York.
Speaker 4: And they would have him come in, they would pay
Speaker 4: him whatever they paid him for that night's singing, and
Speaker 4: he was indebted to them, and so they kept expanding
Speaker 4: that and well, we want you to go here and
Speaker 4: play for so and so at his clum and he
Speaker 4: would do it. We get paid. And also that helped
Speaker 4: him start to be established as a scene star. You
Speaker 4: think of any major entertainer today. That started out very
Speaker 4: young as singer, and so you have the groupies and
Speaker 4: the young kids, and his case was the young girls
Speaker 4: of teens and everything started following him and that's where
Speaker 4: it all started, his fan base, and they just kept
Speaker 4: that going through their various clubs as they expanded out.
Speaker 5: Tell us about Sam g and Kanna and the relationship
Speaker 5: that develops between Sinatra and him.
Speaker 4: Sam Gy and Kanna was at that time the godfather
Speaker 4: of the Chicago outfit. He was running the Stagum off
Speaker 4: of them, and he was Momo. Was kind of a
Speaker 4: crazy guy at a hot temper, but he knew enough
Speaker 4: to keep it under control at times. And Sinatra went
Speaker 4: to him and wanted to get to know him because
Speaker 4: he knew he could elevate him in the entertainment world.
Speaker 4: And Sam took a liking to him. It was kind
Speaker 4: of like a nun olman, a nephew situation, a father
Speaker 4: and son. He took him under his wing and he
Speaker 4: would help Frank along the way. If Frank Brandon then difficulty,
Speaker 4: he couldn't get a singing gig somewhere. All Sam had
Speaker 4: to do was make a call and all of a
Speaker 4: sudden he got the give and so that was the
Speaker 4: help that he was giving him. And also when Kennedy,
Speaker 4: John Kennedy was looking and running for the president, his
Speaker 4: father Joe Kennedy contacted Sam g and Conna and Frank
Speaker 4: Sinatra and Frank then he met his house and they
Speaker 4: had a long talk and he said, listen, I need
Speaker 4: basically the Bob's help to get John elected in Chicago
Speaker 4: and on the East Coast. And Frank went to Sam
Speaker 4: g and Kanna and they had a long conversation about it.
Speaker 4: He was sure, we'll help him and we'll see what
Speaker 4: can be done. And they forbid it from they fought
Speaker 4: him the election through cast and intimidation. So that was
Speaker 4: a long standing relationship. And also as time went by,
Speaker 4: there's a count day of a lodge out in the
Speaker 4: Vlo like Tahoe, and Frank was the guy who supposedly
Speaker 4: owned it, but it was really Sam Giaconna put most
Speaker 4: money into it. So Sam would go there undercover. He
Speaker 4: wasn't supposed to be there because of the gaming restrictions,
Speaker 4: and he would stay in the little cabin and Frank
Speaker 4: would go there. And also, well what happened is Joe
Speaker 4: Kennedy the patriarch of a family. He would secretly visit
Speaker 4: and they would supply him with prostitutes or anything he wanted.
Speaker 4: And so that got Sam in to know a great
Speaker 4: deal more than he wanted the probab about the Kennedy family,
Speaker 4: but also to get them in line in his mind.
Speaker 4: And as time went by, a gal named Judah Fechner
Speaker 4: came to know Sam through Frank and she became his girlfriend,
Speaker 4: Sam Giacana's girlfriend, and at the same time she was
Speaker 4: introduced to John Kennedy and she was also taken care
Speaker 4: of John Kennedy, and so that was rather interesting because
Speaker 4: now Sam Giacanna had blackmailing information on John Kennedy. So
Speaker 4: one day there was a wiretap on Hoover's people put
Speaker 4: a wiretap on Sam g and Conna's home in Chicago,
Speaker 4: and Kennedy was president and he called to speak of Judith.
Speaker 4: He didn't realize there was g Econna's home, so Judith
Speaker 4: was there. She starts talking to John Kennedy and he's
Speaker 4: being recorded the whole time. And so that was a
Speaker 4: great coup for jig Or Hoover because after Hoover heard
Speaker 4: the tape, he had a meeting of Robert Kennedy and
Speaker 4: he said, I want you to listen to this tape
Speaker 4: and he listened to his brother talking to this gal
Speaker 4: about what they're going to do and what they've done
Speaker 4: in the past, and he said, do you know what
Speaker 4: phone number that is? And Robert Kon didn't know. That's
Speaker 4: Sam g Conna's house, that's Sam Gcanna's girlfriend. And your
Speaker 4: brother is also doing Jude Defectioner. So at that time,
Speaker 4: Hoover was basically way ahead of the game as far
Speaker 4: as black male and Kennedy knew that he would never
Speaker 4: be fired because of the information that he had. So
Speaker 4: it was a very long term, very in depth relationship
Speaker 4: and agreements that were made between Sam g and Kana,
Speaker 4: Frank Sinach or Judithectioner, and the Kennedys. It sounds like
Speaker 4: a movie, but it's all too real.
Speaker 5: And what was Sinatra supposed to do in his role?
Speaker 5: What were they counting on him to do specifically.
Speaker 4: The Mob or the Kennedys. The mob? The mob, well,
Speaker 4: the mob. What they were hoping for and they thought
Speaker 4: they would get is that once they were tight and
Speaker 4: they really got the election, they took John Kennedy over
Speaker 4: the threshold to become president they thought this is great,
Speaker 4: they owe us because they thought Joe Kennedy they made
Speaker 4: the deal with, and that Joe Kennedy from his past
Speaker 4: bootlegen everything that he would for better term keep the deal.
Speaker 4: And so they were looking for just no involvement of
Speaker 4: the FBI or department justices coming after the Mob activities,
Speaker 4: whether it's book making, whether it was running drugs, whether
Speaker 4: it was prostitute and extortion, whatever. They thought they were
Speaker 4: going to have a free hand in their territories to
Speaker 4: do what they wanted to do. But what happened is
Speaker 4: Robert Kennedy was appointed Attorney General, which they never saw coming,
Speaker 4: and he started to investigate them, go after people in
Speaker 4: the Mob, and so they felt betrayed and there was
Speaker 4: no love loss at that point between the Mob and JFK.
Speaker 4: And also Frank Sinatra because he was the middleman during
Speaker 4: wellness and so they were upset with a number of people,
Speaker 4: but they didn't know quite have to handle it at
Speaker 4: that stage.
Speaker 5: Frank Sinatra being a middleman. But what were the people
Speaker 5: that were in the crossairs of Bobby Kennedy related to
Speaker 5: Frank Sinatra.
Speaker 4: Well, a lot of them didn't have a direct relationship
Speaker 4: with Frank Sinatra. They're just mob guys and different families
Speaker 4: throughout the country and al Chicago. A lot of the
Speaker 4: mob guys never met Sinatra, you know they were, but
Speaker 4: they were lower down soldiers and everything. But what you
Speaker 4: always do an organized crime est is you tried to
Speaker 4: pick off a low hanging fruit because that way you
Speaker 4: can get them. They're the ones that are out there
Speaker 4: doing the crimes for a better term, and you can
Speaker 4: start to squeeze them and hopefully turn them into rolling
Speaker 4: over the person that they work for, and you keep
Speaker 4: going up that chain of command. So that's what they
Speaker 4: were hoping for as far as DOJ and the mob
Speaker 4: were hoping that that would never happen, but it started
Speaker 4: to happen. So they were picking up lower hanging fruit guys.
Speaker 4: That was causing a lot of stress to the mob
Speaker 4: because they didn't know when these people would start to
Speaker 4: turn informant. And they were also focusing on the higher
Speaker 4: up some of the mob bosses they wanted to take down.
Speaker 4: So it was a very intense time as far as
Speaker 4: investigation of the mob, and then the mob started to
Speaker 4: fight back. So it was a situation that started, basically
Speaker 4: a war that started, but nobody knew how with them.
Speaker 5: You chronicle part of this in your book, your incredible
Speaker 5: book Bombshell, about Marilyn Monroe and Bobby Kennedy and John F.
Speaker 5: Kennedy's rule in her death. You talk about Frank Sinatra
Speaker 5: and Marilyn Monroe and being a middleman in a different
Speaker 5: way with the Kennedys.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and bombshows just how he was for a better
Speaker 4: term setting up Marilyn Monroe and the Kennedys along the
Speaker 4: help of Peter Lawford. And so that's really where the
Speaker 4: introduction came with Marilyn Monroe. And then the affair started
Speaker 4: with Jack Kennedy. And after he for better backed out
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, then his brother Robert was the man
Speaker 4: to told him that Jack was not going to be
Speaker 4: seeing you any longer. Then he started to coffair with
Speaker 4: Maryland and it continued, and at that stage it was
Speaker 4: intersesting because Peter Lawford was put in the middle, but
Speaker 4: also Sinatra was still he want to friends with the Kennedys,
Speaker 4: and Sinatra at his house in walm Springs had a
Speaker 4: being built on because it was his understanding was free
Speaker 4: to you that John Kennedy was going to fly and
Speaker 4: some of California asked President and he was going to
Speaker 4: stay at Sinatra's house in Palm Springs, and that was
Speaker 4: shut down after he built a huge add on and
Speaker 4: brought new telephone lines in from the Secret Service and everything,
Speaker 4: because Robert told him about his connections to the mob,
Speaker 4: which John Kennedy probably already knew, but he had had
Speaker 4: it laid out during that way, and that it would
Speaker 4: have been a very bad idea for the President to
Speaker 4: spend time at Frank Sinatra's house in Palm Springs because
Speaker 4: there are a lot of mob guys down there at
Speaker 4: the time. So he backed out at the last minute.
Speaker 4: Sinatra was furious, and Sinatra at that point basically started
Speaker 4: to hate for Kennedys. And he also started taking it
Speaker 4: out on Peter Lawford because Lawford was at that stage
Speaker 4: he was a brother in law to the Kennedy family
Speaker 4: and Sinatra was not happy at all. And also at
Speaker 4: the time, Peter Lawferd was married to one of the
Speaker 4: sisters of Kennedy's and Sinatra start having an affair with her.
Speaker 4: So if you get closer to the Kennedys, and this
Speaker 4: is backing it up a little bit of time. Excuse me.
Speaker 4: So he was very upset that after having an affair
Speaker 4: with Peter Lawferd's wife, the sister John and Robert Kennedy,
Speaker 4: that everything fell apart and he thought he was going
Speaker 4: to be so close with the President into the White House,
Speaker 4: but his connections to the mob hurt him in that respect.
Speaker 5: Yes, the relationship suffered somewhat as a result from that.
Speaker 4: There was some name calling.
Speaker 5: Tell us more about the campaign against the US Mafia, Well, it.
Speaker 4: Was ongoing for some time. Once Robert Kennedy came in,
Speaker 4: he expanded the number of investigators he had and DOJ
Speaker 4: attorneys prosecutors assigned just to going after the mob. And
Speaker 4: then he would send in groups of attorneys and investigators
Speaker 4: from the FBI and DEOG ind of cities such as Chicago, Detroit,
Speaker 4: New York to start just focusing on the mob, to
Speaker 4: go after them, to try to get as many of
Speaker 4: them as they could indicted, and that was his main quest,
Speaker 4: and there were some indictments. There were a lot of
Speaker 4: interesting situations where they basically interviewed Sinatra, but he wouldn't
Speaker 4: come into a hearing situation. They had to go to
Speaker 4: his hotel and interview him over connections and naturally he
Speaker 4: deny knowing anything, knowing who these people were and so on,
Speaker 4: but everybody knew he was lying at that stage. But
Speaker 4: the investigations went on really until JFK was assassinated and
Speaker 4: then they started to wind down. But it was a
Speaker 4: very intense investigation. It wasn't for lack of trying. But
Speaker 4: it's difficult to indict mob bosses with that one of
Speaker 4: the copos below them, or soldiers becoming an informant. It's
Speaker 4: just it's nearly impossible. And so they went on as
Speaker 4: we could, but once Kennedy was assassinated, it was pretty
Speaker 4: much over.
Speaker 5: Shortly after this assassination, we mentioned in the introduction something
Speaker 5: happens regarding Frank Sinatra and his family.
Speaker 4: Are you talking about the kidnapping? Yes, yeah. Shortly after
Speaker 4: jft's assassination, Frank Sinatra Junior was playing at a hotel
Speaker 4: Lake Tahoe, started a singing career, and he was kidnapped
Speaker 4: from his hotel room. And nobody knew who did this
Speaker 4: at the time, but he was tired of he was
Speaker 4: gag He was put in front of the car. The
Speaker 4: people kidnapping were driving to La and so when Frank
Speaker 4: heard about it. You would think that the first call
Speaker 4: would be to the police the FBI, because he could
Speaker 4: have gotten hold of the head of the FBI and so,
Speaker 4: what's going on, how are you doing this? How he
Speaker 4: had an investigation? Well, he didn't do that. His first
Speaker 4: call went to Gacom because he, as most people then,
Speaker 4: thought that it was probably some lob guy for kidnapping.
Speaker 4: And the next call after Sam Gkanta said okay, I'll look,
Speaker 4: I'll see what I can do. I'll get my people
Speaker 4: on and so forth. On the West coast. His next
Speaker 4: call looked to Jimmy the Wiesel friday Aana who was
Speaker 4: in Los Angeles, and Fridayano was observed going way back
Speaker 4: he was a hit manufiled number of people and so forth,
Speaker 4: and he said, sure, we'll get on it right away
Speaker 4: and see if we can find your son, find out
Speaker 4: who kidnapped you, and free him. Snops thought that would
Speaker 4: be the best way to handle it because they were
Speaker 4: more likely to find these people quicker than the police would.
Speaker 4: So that went on, and the Weasel went out to
Speaker 4: people that he thought, for whatever reason, could have been
Speaker 4: involved and had knowledge of this, because they also thought
Speaker 4: it was some mob guys that probably pulled it off,
Speaker 4: and three of those guys turned up dead and a
Speaker 4: good number of other ones just vanished had never been
Speaker 4: seen again. And as it turned out, the people that
Speaker 4: kidnapped him were for better term, like some old high
Speaker 4: school friends. I thought this was a great idea to
Speaker 4: make some money. And they were captured after Frank Junior
Speaker 4: was freed in Los Ansan, So they weren't in the mob.
Speaker 4: They had nothing to do with it. It's just like
Speaker 4: some college kids getting together and deciding, Hey, we're going
Speaker 4: to go kidnap somebody for ransom, and that's pretty much
Speaker 4: exactly what happened, and they were all eventually captured and convicted.
Speaker 4: So that was the backstore of what was going on
Speaker 4: in the Shadows. When his son was kidnapped.
Speaker 5: At the same time, he still owed a favor or
Speaker 5: still owed just he had another favor to Sam G
Speaker 5: and Conna, didn't he.
Speaker 4: Oh, he owed Sam g and Conna for many, many things.
Speaker 4: One of the things was in the movie From Here
Speaker 4: to Eternity Sinatra one of the part the studio wasn't
Speaker 4: going to give it to him, and they went and
Speaker 4: had a chat. Sam sent his guys out have a
Speaker 4: chat with Coleg who was head of Plumb of Pictures
Speaker 4: then and basically was you're gonna have Frank. We're gonna
Speaker 4: do this part Frank, or you're dead, and that's how
Speaker 4: Frank got the part. So that was one. And then
Speaker 4: Frank owed a lot to the Chicago out for the
Speaker 4: Chicago Mob because they really pretty much launched him in
Speaker 4: some in New Jersey. And there were a couple of
Speaker 4: brothers who he was extremely close to, the Fashetti brothers.
Speaker 4: They were cousins d al Capone. They worked directly for
Speaker 4: al Capone and there are a number of people died
Speaker 4: at their hands. And so anytime Frank, pretty much any
Speaker 4: time he would go back to Chicago in that area,
Speaker 4: one of the brothers of both were picking him up
Speaker 4: at the airport and he would stay with them at
Speaker 4: their house, and the two brothers and he would go
Speaker 4: with them just hang out with him the whole time
Speaker 4: he was there. And he did a lot of favors
Speaker 4: for them, such as a couple of the guys back
Speaker 4: there were opening up car dealerships and he would show
Speaker 4: up for the grand opening as a favor, or he
Speaker 4: would do a commercial for them. So he was indebted
Speaker 4: to them and also I think he probably feared them
Speaker 4: because he knew what they did for al Capone and
Speaker 4: some other people, and what they were doing for Sam
Speaker 4: Giacana at the time Sam was taking over. So there
Speaker 4: was some fear and there's some respect. But Frank had
Speaker 4: an enormous respect for the Mob and he was just
Speaker 4: intrigued by them like they were movie stars. And it
Speaker 4: was him and Phil Silvers who would get together and
Speaker 4: they would just admire Bugsy Siegel when Bugsy was in
Speaker 4: la and they would just prevent him, treat him as
Speaker 4: the king. And when Bugsy would walk into a restaurant
Speaker 4: and they were there, they would stand up and say, hello,
Speaker 4: missus Siegel, how are you this evening, and so forth.
Speaker 4: And then once he passed, they were set down and
Speaker 4: they would do favors with him. If Bugsy wanted dinner
Speaker 4: with them or have a friend have dinner with them,
Speaker 4: they got it. They would do it instantly. And once
Speaker 4: again that was a lot based on respect or respect
Speaker 4: and fear. And they would talk about Phil Silvers and
Speaker 4: Frank about how many people Bugsy killed and how did
Speaker 4: he kill them, and what was his preferred method of
Speaker 4: killing people and so forth, and they were just intrigued
Speaker 4: by that, and so it appeared where the people who
Speaker 4: spoke to that Frank started taking on that persona as
Speaker 4: boy Bugsy is a tough guy and he's got a
Speaker 4: lot of respect, and so if I'm history and people
Speaker 4: are gonna have more respect for me and more fear.
Speaker 4: So it was an interesting dance that they were doing
Speaker 4: between them. But Bugsy was always the one on the
Speaker 4: West Coast that they bowed to. And then they would
Speaker 4: pay a lot atenest to Jimney the Weizel. He would
Speaker 4: do things because they knew he was basically just a
Speaker 4: hit man. So there's fear and respect of going across
Speaker 4: Sinosa's lines.
Speaker 5: You have an interesting story about Mario Huso and The
Speaker 5: Godfather and Frank Sinatra's interest in that movie and Sydney
Speaker 5: Coorshak's role in the whole thing as well. Can you
Speaker 5: tell us just briefly about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, Sidney was an attorney in Los Angeles, Beverly Hills,
Speaker 4: and he was probably one of those parts for people
Speaker 4: within the entertainment industry. He represented a lot of entertainers,
Speaker 4: a lot of studio execs, but also he for a
Speaker 4: better term, wielded power over the unions in Los Angeles,
Speaker 4: and so when he wanted something done, all he had
Speaker 4: to do is make a call. And he got Frank
Speaker 4: into a lot of things as far as movies and entertainment.
Speaker 4: But also Sydney had the power if he wanted to
Speaker 4: shut down a studio through the unions, he just made
Speaker 4: a call and nobody would show up work at studios.
Speaker 4: He wielded a lot of power. And then as time
Speaker 4: went by, Frank had him represent him a number of issues,
Speaker 4: and he would then act as the middleman between whatever
Speaker 4: Frank wanted and whoever he wanted to get it from.
Speaker 4: And people knew Sydney, they knew his reputation, and they
Speaker 4: knew that Sydney was very well connected with the mob.
Speaker 4: And there are a lot of rooms that there are
Speaker 4: probably some people that got some broken bones and were
Speaker 4: ill because of Sidney. But he was very sharp, very shrewd,
Speaker 4: and extremely powerful in Hollywood.
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Speaker 5: we were talking about Frank Sinatra's desire to be in
Speaker 5: the Godfather and then him being rebuffed by the director
Speaker 5: Ord Copula, and tell us about what happens a little
Speaker 5: bit later in a chapter you call Candid Camera.
Speaker 4: Well, Frank wanted the Godfather, but he just wasn't right
Speaker 4: and the student did things right, and Cocola apparently didn't
Speaker 4: really want in there. He was thinking some other people,
Speaker 4: which ended up being Brando and so forth. So they tried,
Speaker 4: they tried to get in there, but for Sidney Korshak
Speaker 4: and then for some reason they just couldn't swing it
Speaker 4: at that time to get him into that movie. And
Speaker 4: he was a bit upset because if you've seen the movie,
Speaker 4: there isn't Godfather. You see, there's an entertainer who was
Speaker 4: a singer, and the Godfather played very important part in
Speaker 4: getting him into a movie and launching his career, and
Speaker 4: that was all based on Sinatra. Yes, So it just
Speaker 4: was an interesting situation where it's really kind of in
Speaker 4: a better sense the docu drama on Frank's life, just
Speaker 4: that one part in there, and it looked like he
Speaker 4: wanted to be in there in a sense to one
Speaker 4: try to control the part and what was being said,
Speaker 4: and also it seemed to be a good job for
Speaker 4: him to take that time if he could get it,
Speaker 4: but it just didn't work out.
Speaker 5: You write in this book, and we haven't spoken about it.
Speaker 5: The behavior and the attitude of Frank Sinatra and some
Speaker 5: of the I guess well, his affairs and some of
Speaker 5: the things that he did that the mob counted on
Speaker 5: and used to their advantage.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Frank, he had quite a few affairs, and as
Speaker 4: you meant, a lot of republics were not. But he
Speaker 4: saw himself in a way its almost being becoming untouchable
Speaker 4: in the mob's mind, that he was up there with
Speaker 4: the mob godfathers and so forth. So a lot of
Speaker 4: the people around him and within the entertainment industry, within
Speaker 4: the mob, they were getting upset because he was starting
Speaker 4: He was drawing a lot of attention to himself that
Speaker 4: the mob felt it wasn't necessary as far as having
Speaker 4: an affairs, and they wanted him to calm down, slow
Speaker 4: it down. You know, if you're going to have an affair,
Speaker 4: basically having in private, have it with a prostitute out
Speaker 4: of Vegas or someone else where, nobody's going to know
Speaker 4: about it. But he insisted on doing things in his
Speaker 4: own fashion. And then he became jealous of Ava Gardener.
Speaker 4: He started dating a partner and then she went out
Speaker 4: a couple of times with Peter Lawford. This pomposition before
Speaker 4: Peter is married and he was so upset he called
Speaker 4: Lawford May he threatened that he could never be seen
Speaker 4: ave again, go out with her or anything where he's
Speaker 4: going to take care of him. And that's where Frank
Speaker 4: was coming in, playing his marvel and thinking that the
Speaker 4: mob is just going to whack somebody because he's upset
Speaker 4: with him, and that's not the way it worked. And
Speaker 4: so Frank went on that that gave the FBI a
Speaker 4: lot of reason to investigate him for wiretaps on and
Speaker 4: so forth on his phone and other people's phones, and
Speaker 4: put him on the surveillance when he was in experience
Speaker 4: punch of the country. And that's the same thing Lapde
Speaker 4: e Toligence did when he was in La Hadi under surveillance,
Speaker 4: and when he was in living Palm Springs, lapd intelligence
Speaker 4: to go to Palm Springs and see who he was
Speaker 4: getting together with as far as a woman, see what
Speaker 4: mob guys he was meeting with, and just carry that
Speaker 4: on to the endpoint where they get as much information
Speaker 4: on him and the mob and anybody he associated with.
Speaker 4: So that's pretty much went on with him and having affairs,
Speaker 4: and there was a time when he was drawing too
Speaker 4: much attention, and some of the guys in the mob
Speaker 4: talked about having him hit, killing him to stop the attention,
Speaker 4: and several wanted him hit. But then if he wants,
Speaker 4: say cooler heads, so people hire up the chain of command.
Speaker 4: The mob said. Now they were worried that if they
Speaker 4: did that one using money maker for them, but two
Speaker 4: that would draw an enormous amount of heat from law
Speaker 4: enforcement as far as somebody who's looking at who killed
Speaker 4: Frank Sinatra. So they just backed off at that point.
Speaker 4: And then you have to get into when he had
Speaker 4: a gaming license that he lost in Nevada at the
Speaker 4: account Nava launch, and so he later I went five
Speaker 4: years later, wanted to become for better term director of
Speaker 4: entertainment at a major resort in Vegas, and once again
Speaker 4: he had to go through the Gaming Commission to get
Speaker 4: that license. So it was reported the information we got
Speaker 4: he was going to get paid one hundred and twenty
Speaker 4: five thousand dollars a month for that job, and all
Speaker 4: he would do is help bring in other big name
Speaker 4: entertainers to perform at the casino restort. So it wasn't
Speaker 4: going well. Harry Reid, who was a former center at Labata,
Speaker 4: he was on the Gaming Commission, and he vowed and
Speaker 4: spoke publicly in a private to many people that Sinatra
Speaker 4: was dirty as far as his involvement in the mob
Speaker 4: and so forth, and he would never give him a
Speaker 4: gaming advicense. Well, now we stepped back to Sidney Korshak,
Speaker 4: the attorney in Vegas. Sydney had a very good friend
Speaker 4: who was an attorney in Nevada and a very higher
Speaker 4: ends politician there for years in Nevada. And so they
Speaker 4: had a meeting. That attorney went back to Vegas and
Speaker 4: called Harry Read and said we need to chat. So
Speaker 4: they got together in the motel room. They had a chat,
Speaker 4: and Harry left with the brief Days from the Sky
Speaker 4: and it was obviously full of cash. And so shortly
Speaker 4: after that the vote was coming up for the licensing
Speaker 4: of Sinatra, and Harry, over that meeting in the hotel
Speaker 4: room said Snatsa is a great guy. He's got a
Speaker 4: lot of great friends, and or we've got to give
Speaker 4: him this gaming license. They gave him the gaming license.
Speaker 4: So this brought in a lot of the politics tam
Speaker 4: that went on in the VAT at the time. And
Speaker 4: Swisher Harry Read Sinatra, he knew what to do, and
Speaker 4: especially his attorneys that came through for him on that
Speaker 4: ended up getting his license.
Speaker 5: You write about his connection to Carlo Gambino as far
Speaker 5: as the government is involved, and you call them the
Speaker 5: boss of bosses. What comes of that connection in terms
Speaker 5: of photographs showing they were together.
Speaker 4: Well, in the book there's a photo of oh Sinatra
Speaker 4: at about four mob bosses and then some other coppos
Speaker 4: together z after Showy did and Carlow was the at
Speaker 4: that time, he was the man. He was the most
Speaker 4: powerful mob boss in the country, probably in the world,
Speaker 4: and so that's who Frank wanted to be around. He
Speaker 4: wanted his let's say, his power, his protection, and his
Speaker 4: endorsements and his influence by being with him. So that's
Speaker 4: what he was hoping to get out of being around Carlow.
Speaker 4: And Carlow at that time he was an old gentleman
Speaker 4: and seago to see Frank, and he took his friends
Speaker 4: and they went and they met him. And then through
Speaker 4: time when Carlo was still in power, through Frank generally
Speaker 4: through an attorney, would contact Carlow and asked for a favor,
Speaker 4: and sometimes they were big favors, sometimes they're small but
Speaker 4: Frank was not over extending his request to Carlo for
Speaker 4: any little thing, because he knew that Carlo would get
Speaker 4: upset if he kept calling and asking for loads of favors.
Speaker 4: Pretty soon Carlo's going to cut him off. So he
Speaker 4: was selective in this request to Carlo and his people.
Speaker 4: But Harlow, if it wasn't going to cost them anything,
Speaker 4: literally anything, he would make a call or whatever. People
Speaker 4: would make a call for him, either a telephone or
Speaker 4: in person and say, hey, would you help mister Sinatra
Speaker 4: whatever the issue was, and generally people would not refuse him.
Speaker 5: You're right about a seemingly similar ransom and kidnapping of
Speaker 5: his son. Emmanuel Manny Gambino tell us what happens in
Speaker 5: that case, Well.
Speaker 4: It's just a matter of once again, there was a
Speaker 4: kidnapping and Carlo being in a position he was, he
Speaker 4: wasn't going to stand for this and he wanted to
Speaker 4: try to get a sudden back. But also he put
Speaker 4: his people out on the street, all of his soldiers,
Speaker 4: and they just spanned out across really the country to
Speaker 4: find out who was involved in this and to basically
Speaker 4: take them out. At the end, there were quite a
Speaker 4: few people that ended up fanishing, some ended up just
Speaker 4: their body being found. And it was just proof that
Speaker 4: when there's a mob boss, especially back then, there's a
Speaker 4: mob boss that has a lot of power, Barlow had it,
Speaker 4: you don't mess with them. It doesn't matter what your
Speaker 4: position is. He just didn't mess with them. So Farlo
Speaker 4: did his best like any mob god father would do that.
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Speaker 5: Now we talk about what happens with Frank Sinatra in
Speaker 5: his career at this point and afterwards, but also the
Speaker 5: fate of people around him like Sam g and Conna,
Speaker 5: tell us what happens with Frank Sinatra and his career
Speaker 5: and what happens in the careers of some of these
Speaker 5: mobsters that he read about.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, was this that when John Kennedy was prisoning,
Speaker 4: the CIA wanted to kill Castro and a number of
Speaker 4: other political leaders. So they went to a guy named
Speaker 4: Robert Mayhew, who was a former FBIS and pharmacia and
Speaker 4: operators who was working for Howard Hughes at the time,
Speaker 4: and basically asked him to set up a meeting the
Speaker 4: mob and he did, and so they got together from
Speaker 4: the mob pauses and said, hey, here's what we want.
Speaker 4: We want Castro killed, and so Sam Giacana and then
Speaker 4: thought about and said, okay, we'll see what we can do,
Speaker 4: and they came some ideas, but obviously it never occurred.
Speaker 4: And Johnny Roselli was one of them, Johnny the mob guys.
Speaker 4: Johnny was out on the West coast, so it was
Speaker 4: Hollywood Johnny, and he was really into running the mobs,
Speaker 4: interest in the studios and so forth. And so as
Speaker 4: time went by, all of a sudden, Congress and Senate
Speaker 4: they started investigating this, the issue of the CIA being
Speaker 4: involved in killings and so forth, and Sam was set
Speaker 4: to testify and he was at his house, was really instant.
Speaker 4: He was at his house Chicago. He was in preparing
Speaker 4: a meal for himself for frying some sausage and the peppers,
Speaker 4: and somebody he knew came in and it was in
Speaker 4: all likelihood it was totally Spilato came in and has say,
Speaker 4: turns back on him, shot him and killed me, shot
Speaker 4: in the head several times. That happened just before he
Speaker 4: was to testify before the commission that the Senate committee.
Speaker 4: And then Johnny Rosselli, who was also involved in setting
Speaker 4: up the deal to kill Castro, he was thet to
Speaker 4: testify before the Senate and then he vanishes and his
Speaker 4: body is found stuck in a fifty five gallon drum
Speaker 4: floating in Florida in a bay. While it was interesting
Speaker 4: intelligence wise, does matter what did the mob kill them?
Speaker 4: Or was the CIA? Or was it the mob doing
Speaker 4: it at the hints of the CIA? And so that
Speaker 4: came into play. He got these two guys killed, which
Speaker 4: it's foot Sinatra great extent because he knew these guys,
Speaker 4: he knew him well, and so he was so concerned
Speaker 4: that among other reasons, but to get a game horses.
Speaker 4: He went to the CIA and offered him become a
Speaker 4: spy for it, and basically they listened to him, and
Speaker 4: he said, listen, I can get in and see people
Speaker 4: all around the world, heads of state, the royal family
Speaker 4: in England and so forth, and I could talk to them,
Speaker 4: ask them questions, and I can come back and you
Speaker 4: can do briefly what it would come down to. And
Speaker 4: the CIA thought about it, but they didn't take him.
Speaker 2: Up on it.
Speaker 4: They took other people upon it. They didn't take him
Speaker 4: upon it because they were mainly concerned with Sinatra learning
Speaker 4: that they start dealing with Sinatra, that he would somehow
Speaker 4: find out that the CIA was otly dealing with the mob,
Speaker 4: the sam G Johnny Roseelli, all these guys that Sinatra knew,
Speaker 4: and they were very very concerned that he would leak
Speaker 4: it in some fashion, either bragging about it or what.
Speaker 4: But he wanted their help. The CIA's helped and stopping
Speaker 4: the SBI from looking at him, and also getting his
Speaker 4: gaming license back, and that he thought they could override everything.
Speaker 4: But the CIA, they were in this case. They were
Speaker 4: smart enough to know that now we're not going to
Speaker 4: take Frank under r Room and have him start doing
Speaker 4: if you want to say, undercover operatics for them. It
Speaker 4: just wasn't going to work out. They didn't trust him
Speaker 4: because he was a loose cannon and he had he
Speaker 4: had a temper, So that's not what you want and
Speaker 4: the person's going to be doing intelligence sport for you.
Speaker 5: You're right about the O CID holding a huge doss
Speaker 5: on Sydney Korshak and his clients and friends, you say,
Speaker 5: which include the biggest names in entertainment world at that time.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah. When I was in O CID that
Speaker 4: I had accessed to all the dossiers, and Sydney was known,
Speaker 4: my goodness, for years and years before I went to
Speaker 4: O CID about his connection to the mob and his
Speaker 4: power over a lot of the unions in Los Angeles
Speaker 4: in other parts of the country, and especially some politicians,
Speaker 4: and so going through his file, it was interesting see
Speaker 4: how many powerful people within the encayment industry. I'm talking
Speaker 4: about heads of studios and heads of television networks and
Speaker 4: major major entertainers at Sinatra, Dean Martin back then in
Speaker 4: that time, for Sammy Davis and the Rat pat everybody else,
Speaker 4: plus the Vegas crowd, all the people that owned hotels
Speaker 4: and casinos in Vegas, they were all connected and Sydney
Speaker 4: had access to all of them. It was really quite
Speaker 4: remarkable because he didn't do a lot of legal work
Speaker 4: in the respect that most attorneys to him. He just
Speaker 4: had to make a phone call and he could shut
Speaker 4: something down or he could make something happen, and he
Speaker 4: could put people together. He could just call the head
Speaker 4: of the studio and then several major actors and acts
Speaker 4: saying hey be at my office tomorrow I want to talk,
Speaker 4: and they get together and they'd chat. He didn't work
Speaker 4: out a huge deal, so he was more part of
Speaker 4: people know and interesting enough for not being an Italian
Speaker 4: in the mob. He had in some respects more power
Speaker 4: than some of the mob bosses did because of his
Speaker 4: impact on the unions and his say so over the
Speaker 4: unions in Hollywood. So Sydney was a real interesting character.
Speaker 4: Had a massive DUSSI and him as he did on
Speaker 4: many other people. And there were times I know I
Speaker 4: read the reports were intelligence re post surveillance reports where
Speaker 4: Sydney would travel someplace in southern California and OCID would
Speaker 4: follow him. And there were times that he had middleman
Speaker 4: go to the White House when various presidents work in
Speaker 4: office and have a private meeting of the president and
Speaker 4: we on a couple occasions. And also they say tried
Speaker 4: to get the log from the White House who visited
Speaker 4: it when he visited. Strange thing. Those people were taken
Speaker 4: off the log, they were never logged in. Yet we
Speaker 4: know from some of the Secret Service people that they
Speaker 4: actually met with the president. So there's a lot of
Speaker 4: power being wielded, a lot of back doors that were
Speaker 4: being opened, a lot of political favors that were being
Speaker 4: paid to politicians and then coming back that way to
Speaker 4: entertainers from the politicians.
Speaker 5: You write that Sidney Karshak Korshak knew how the mafia
Speaker 5: made Sinatra right from the beginnings and also how he
Speaker 5: made it always as easily as possible for Frank Sinatra.
Speaker 5: He really made Frank Sinatra, didn't He.
Speaker 4: Did because of his power. He also saw money there
Speaker 4: representing Sinatra. So he learned a Sinatra coming up and
Speaker 4: in his was a teen idol days. He knew who
Speaker 4: he was. And as he started going up in stature
Speaker 4: in the encayment industry and being known, Sidney got more
Speaker 4: involved and that's what Sydney started representing him and running
Speaker 4: in appearance for him. And if Frank had an issue
Speaker 4: with whoever it was that didn't involve the mob, Sydney
Speaker 4: would step in and handle it. And so Sydney in
Speaker 4: the sense became his godfather in the legal terms of
Speaker 4: being his attorney, but he would also control a lot
Speaker 4: that Frank did, and he would keep Frank out of
Speaker 4: trouble too because Frank, he said, he had a temper.
Speaker 4: He would do some stupid things at times, and Sydney
Speaker 4: was able to tap all that day out keep it
Speaker 4: out immedia because of his power and also the influence
Speaker 4: he had on LPD, out of police supports at that time,
Speaker 4: Sydney could step in and have somebody the case just
Speaker 4: drop or it will never be handled in the first place.
Speaker 4: It would just go away. So he said, I'll handle this,
Speaker 4: don't get involved as far as the police, and he
Speaker 4: would go to recons in the chief of police in
Speaker 4: La and all of a sudden it was over.
Speaker 5: You say that Frank Sinatra lifelong denial of having any
Speaker 5: connection to the mafia, But you say Frank Sinatra wasn't
Speaker 5: a made man, but the mafia certainly made him exactly.
Speaker 4: That's what his life and his career boiled down to him.
Speaker 4: They took him under their wing. They turned him into
Speaker 4: what he was as far as entertainment and becoming a superstar,
Speaker 4: and they would protect him when it benefited them. And
Speaker 4: that's the way his entire life. But also when he
Speaker 4: became older and a lot of these mob guys that
Speaker 4: died off, his power base within the mob also died off.
Speaker 4: You're writ in the PostScript, you call it showstopper. Frank
Speaker 4: Sinatra dies at eighty two years old in West Hollywood
Speaker 4: in nineteen ninety eight. Tell us what his sendoff was.
Speaker 4: Tribute to Frank Sinatra, Well, there's a lot of tributes
Speaker 4: that were paid through the media and so forth. Regarding
Speaker 4: his sendoff. The vast majority of probably ninety eight percent
Speaker 4: of the mob guys that he knew that he they're
Speaker 4: all dead and so it wasn't as some people may
Speaker 4: have expected a big mob turnout to send them off
Speaker 4: to the cemetery. It was just for adventure, almost low key.
Speaker 4: They're entertainers and everybody else's attendants, family friends and so forth.
Speaker 4: But as far as the mob in attendance, there are
Speaker 4: a few little ranking guys that were there that were
Speaker 4: picked up on surveillance, but names that people wouldn't know,
Speaker 4: names that people wouldn't know. But they're all dead.
Speaker 5: You're right in the very end in author's note in
Speaker 5: August twenty twenty two, tell us what you have to
Speaker 5: say about history.
Speaker 4: Well, history can always be in a lot of respects
Speaker 4: rewritten with facts, and a lot of times history is
Speaker 4: blurred from the people who have written history have spoken history,
Speaker 4: and history too can be changed, and they can open
Speaker 4: a lot of people's eyes when documents that have been
Speaker 4: hidden for years start coming forward and they tell a
Speaker 4: different story for the public perception of the film. Any person,
Speaker 4: whether it be the Kennedys, whether the Sinatra, or whether
Speaker 4: be any major entertainer, all of a sudden you start
Speaker 4: finding out things you never knew, and you realize that,
Speaker 4: not only in entertainment but political that people are groomed
Speaker 4: in a certain way and only a certain part of
Speaker 4: their reality is exposed or given to the publics. And
Speaker 4: so that's how people read them, and that's how they
Speaker 4: understood Frank's life until things start to come out, and
Speaker 4: that's how they understood most politicians lives.
Speaker 5: You talk about the Freedom of Information Act and the
Speaker 5: changes to it in nineteen eighty four and the FBI
Speaker 5: reluctantly releasing its declassified files, and this where these were
Speaker 5: invaluable to you. Tell us what you have to say
Speaker 5: in terms of these redacted files. But the value of
Speaker 5: these wiretaps, Oh, it's quite amazing. I said the Foyers
Speaker 5: that I have filed with them a lot of times.
Speaker 5: They'll come back if they don't want to reach, say
Speaker 5: we don't know what it's talking about. Well, I've gone
Speaker 5: through that many times of them, and then all of
Speaker 5: a sudden, why they know and why I know? And
Speaker 5: then they'll give me documents. So it opened up a
Speaker 5: lot of people's eyes to Sinatra and politicians everything, but
Speaker 5: all the documents that were coming forth that I was
Speaker 5: able to obtain, and regarding the transcripts on wirecaps and
Speaker 5: social what you come across are the actual words for
Speaker 5: a person is really thank you, especially a politician, and
Speaker 5: what they're really talking about, and so it gives you
Speaker 5: a great deal of insight to them. And I one
Speaker 5: example underlated, I got excuse me the tough phone transcripts
Speaker 5: of Lyndon Johnson the day after GfK was assassinated, and
Speaker 5: it's very telling when you read what he's speaking to
Speaker 5: somebody on the telephone about and then we comes up
Speaker 5: publicly talks about the assassination and say, wait, wait a minute,
Speaker 5: something really stinks here. So when you have access to
Speaker 5: telephone transcripts, it provides keen insight into the person's thinking
Speaker 5: and what they're actually doing. And it doesn't matter what
Speaker 5: they say publicly, whether it's an entertainer or politician. You
Speaker 5: know what is really going on. And so looking at that.
Speaker 4: When all of that information starts coming out, it just
Speaker 4: paints a different picture of that individual that you're looking at.
Speaker 4: So they're extremely useful, those sort of documents, and they're
Speaker 4: extremely informative.
Speaker 5: I want to thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 5: and talking about Frank Sinatra and the Mafia murders. For
Speaker 5: those people that might want to take a look at
Speaker 5: this and other work of yours. You do any social
Speaker 5: media website, can you tell us about that?
Speaker 4: No, I don't just go to Amazon dot com for
Speaker 4: books and put my name in the search and all
Speaker 4: the books pop up and like this on Sinatra. It's
Speaker 4: available in the US now in audio handed kindle, but
Speaker 4: the paperback won't be out until Changon. I see that.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Frank Sinatra and the Mafia murders,
Speaker 5: Thank you so much. Mike Rothmeller, you have a great evening.
Speaker 2: You too.
Speaker 4: Thank you,