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We're 21 00:00:58.280 --> 00:01:00.039 gitted my eighteen plus terms and condition to play what 22 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:00.719 every he fails. 23 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:11.560 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 24 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.680 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 25 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:22.040 written about him. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 26 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:25.760 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 27 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.359 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with Your Host, 28 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:32.640 journalist and author Dan. 29 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:46.079 Zufanski, Good Evening, Mike Wathmeller and Douglas Thompson draw on 30 00:01:46.280 --> 00:01:51.680 previously secret LAPD Intelligent Files, a cash of FBI documents 31 00:01:51.799 --> 00:01:55.760 released to the authors in twenty twenty one, and extensive 32 00:01:55.879 --> 00:01:59.319 interviews with prime sources, including many who work with Frank 33 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:02.159 Sinatra and many more who tracked his long and fatal 34 00:02:02.200 --> 00:02:06.560 association with the American mafia, notably his ongoing connection after 35 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:11.400 his original godfather was assassinated. Sam Momo Giancana shared a 36 00:02:11.439 --> 00:02:14.840 lover with President John F. Kennedy sixteen days after the 37 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:19.120 assassination of John F. Kennedy. On November thirtieth, nineteen sixty three, 38 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:22.719 while the singer was consoling the president's widow, nineteen year 39 00:02:22.759 --> 00:02:25.919 old Frank Sinatra Junior was kidnapped at gunpoint from his 40 00:02:26.039 --> 00:02:28.879 hotel room in Lake Tahoe, Nevada. A two hundred and 41 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:32.439 forty thousand dollars ransom was demanded from his father. While 42 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:36.159 the FBI in Nevada and California law enforcement agencies sprang 43 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:40.400 into action, Frank secretly contacted his mafia friends for help. 44 00:02:40.879 --> 00:02:43.520 The mafia believed they could free young Frank much more 45 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:47.560 quickly through their underworld connections. In the end, nine people 46 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:51.759 died having been beaten. For information revealed here as never 47 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:55.039 before is the extent to which Sinatra was adopted by 48 00:02:55.120 --> 00:02:58.120 the mafia. They promoted his career and watched his back, 49 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:02.000 and in return, Sinatra dan to their tune. New information 50 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:05.520 disclosed here shows that Sinatra also offered to spy for 51 00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:09.879 the CIA. Inside sources say Sinatra wanted the CIA to 52 00:03:10.080 --> 00:03:13.599 intercede to stop an investigation to his gaming license in 53 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:17.360 Las Vegas, but the CIA declined because they were already 54 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:20.599 working with the Mob and were concerned Sinatra would learn 55 00:03:20.680 --> 00:03:23.520 of the mafia's connection to the CIA and leak it. 56 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:26.560 The book that we're featuring this evening is Frank Sinatra 57 00:03:26.800 --> 00:03:31.120 and the Mafia Murders, with my special guests, journalist, author, 58 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:35.759 and former organized crime detective Mike Rothmeller. Welcome back to 59 00:03:35.879 --> 00:03:38.080 the program, and thank you so much for this interview 60 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:39.080 Mike roth Miller. 61 00:03:39.240 --> 00:03:40.159 My pleasan VI here. 62 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:44.000 Thank you very much for this interview and congratulations on 63 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:45.240 your latest book. 64 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:45.800 Well, thank you. 65 00:03:46.439 --> 00:03:51.319 Let's start with your background. I just mentioned it organized crime, 66 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:55.840 former organized crime in LAPD. Tell us about your background, 67 00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:59.919 the information that you were privy to you and Doug 68 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:03.960 Liss Thompson, your co author, and the origins of this book, 69 00:04:04.520 --> 00:04:06.759 and all the research that was necessary. 70 00:04:07.319 --> 00:04:10.439 Sure. Well, my background. I started with the LAPD of 71 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:13.479 was their ten years. I worked patrol, I was a 72 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:18.240 training officer of control, I worked vice enforcement, and I 73 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:21.879 became a sergeant, and I was a film supervisor and 74 00:04:22.560 --> 00:04:26.160 the last five years I was assigned to the Organized 75 00:04:26.199 --> 00:04:31.120 Prime Intelligence Division. And what then entailed is gathering intelligence 76 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:36.439 on the mob, politicians, on anybody that wielded power, not 77 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:39.639 only in southern California, but across the country in some 78 00:04:39.839 --> 00:04:43.720 cases in foreign countries. Of the fifty five detectives that 79 00:04:43.800 --> 00:04:46.000 were in there when I worked there, we never made 80 00:04:46.040 --> 00:04:49.600 one arrest. We were prohibited from making arrests because of 81 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:53.439 the intelligence that we are gathering and how we were gathering. 82 00:04:53.759 --> 00:04:56.240 As an example, we had two guys in there who 83 00:04:56.519 --> 00:05:00.319 were wiretap et sports. That's all they did even though 84 00:05:00.360 --> 00:05:03.480 you couldn't get a wiretap. There were other guys that 85 00:05:03.560 --> 00:05:06.199 would do black bag jobs like the SBI you see 86 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:09.199 break into a house, bring into a business in the 87 00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:12.040 middle of the night, or no date search. It gets 88 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:15.759 the information they want and then leave. So that's what 89 00:05:15.959 --> 00:05:18.560 was going on. If you think of jig Or Hoover, 90 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:22.879 what the FBI was doing, gathering dossiers on the rich, 91 00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.879 the famous, and politicians of power, that's exactly what LFP 92 00:05:27.079 --> 00:05:31.000 Intelligence was doing at the time. And that actually started 93 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.800 in nineteen thirty two. That division started and it continued 94 00:05:34.839 --> 00:05:37.920 through the years. I had access to all of the 95 00:05:38.480 --> 00:05:42.959 secret dossiers and files on everybody you could imagine. There 96 00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:46.319 probably were fifty two hundred thousand people in the file 97 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:50.560 as well, and of those were entertainers as you can imagine, 98 00:05:50.639 --> 00:05:55.399 Sinatra and Marilyn Monroe, politicians, the Kennedys, Jerry Brown, the 99 00:05:55.439 --> 00:05:59.079 governor of California, his father Pat Brown, former governor, and 100 00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:06.600 people various countries and with a emphasis on New York, Chicago, Detroit, Miami, 101 00:06:07.079 --> 00:06:09.839 Kansas City, and those areas of Las Vegas where there 102 00:06:09.920 --> 00:06:12.800 was a mob connection, but also where there were oh, 103 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:15.399 let's just put it a lot of politicians that were 104 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.279 in the pocket of the model, So that's where it 105 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:21.519 came from. That's what I had access to. I had 106 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:24.959 access to a lot of the very confidential information the 107 00:06:25.079 --> 00:06:29.040 FBI had because I was loaned to Partner Justice starting 108 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:31.959 as Crime Strike Force in La so I was working 109 00:06:32.040 --> 00:06:35.759 with them a lot. Iris Intelligence provided us a lot 110 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:38.600 of information and so forth. So that's where all the 111 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:41.240 information that's coming from when I was doing that sort 112 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:44.920 of work. Now, as far as this book gathering information, 113 00:06:45.079 --> 00:06:48.000 it went back to the information that I had privy 114 00:06:48.079 --> 00:06:51.279 to many years ago when I was doing that work. 115 00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:55.040 And then also I filed many freedom Information Acts and 116 00:06:55.160 --> 00:06:59.720 mandatory declassification reviews for information that has never been released 117 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:04.319 by the FBI, the CIA, State Department, Secret Service, you 118 00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.920 name it. And I also got a lot of information 119 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.000 out of the National Archives and out of old data 120 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.959 banks that we subscribed to. So it was a wealth 121 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:16.199 of information. And it was also a matter of running 122 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:20.199 down former law enforcement people who had information back and 123 00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:25.199 also people who were close to Sinatra and knew what 124 00:07:25.279 --> 00:07:27.199 he was doing as far as this connection to the 125 00:07:27.319 --> 00:07:29.519 mob and what the Mob was doing for him. So 126 00:07:30.160 --> 00:07:32.160 we found quite a few of those people who were 127 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.279 still around and they're willing to talk. So that's the 128 00:07:35.399 --> 00:07:37.279 background where the information came from. 129 00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:41.920 You write originally in the book chapter called the Sicilian 130 00:07:42.439 --> 00:07:46.439 and you talk about Frank Sinatra's Sicilian origins. Tell us 131 00:07:46.480 --> 00:07:49.879 a little bit about his background and what his parents did, 132 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:53.920 and his ascension as a singer in America. 133 00:07:54.160 --> 00:07:56.360 It's very interesting where he was born in New Jersey 134 00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:01.519 and his father was a hanger honor of the mob 135 00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:03.879 back then. He would do some work for them. He 136 00:08:04.079 --> 00:08:07.279 wanted to be a boxer on his bartender and so forth, 137 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:10.199 and he was running some errands for them, the better 138 00:08:10.240 --> 00:08:12.639 way of putting in. His mother was also involved in 139 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:17.199 an abortion clinan and so Frank grew up watching the 140 00:08:17.279 --> 00:08:20.480 mob guys around him and watching his parents. So anything 141 00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:23.439 that was being done as a child that normally that 142 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:26.240 your parents do when you grow up and their associates, 143 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:28.959 you think it's all right, that's the way the world runs. 144 00:08:29.000 --> 00:08:32.000 And so that's where he grew up. And he started 145 00:08:32.120 --> 00:08:35.840 working very young in some bars and so forth, and 146 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:38.159 he would sing as he got a little bit older, 147 00:08:38.200 --> 00:08:41.360 into his late keeens. He would sing for a sandwich 148 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:44.080 and maybe a pack of cigarettes in the local bar 149 00:08:44.519 --> 00:08:47.120 that was run by some of the Mob guys, and 150 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:49.600 that's where he got his first taste of the mob 151 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:53.480 and a first introduction to the mob. And they liked him. 152 00:08:53.519 --> 00:08:55.960 He was a good kid. They thought he could sing, 153 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:59.919 and so they became friends. And as time went, Bob, 154 00:09:00.519 --> 00:09:04.200 it was the Mob who Lucky Muciano some other guys 155 00:09:04.360 --> 00:09:08.240 through Willie Moriotty, who was his for better Terman's godfather, 156 00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:11.799 they put up fifty thousand dollars to advance his career, 157 00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:14.840 and that's what really longs him what we know today 158 00:09:15.399 --> 00:09:16.240 what happened for him. 159 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:19.879 He also learned early on about breaking contracts because he 160 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.639 had a contract where forty three percent of his money 161 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:26.720 went to Tommy Dorsey. Tell us about that contract, right. 162 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:29.240 People may have seen that before in a movie, but 163 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:32.720 it was very true that Dorsey hadn't blocked in for 164 00:09:32.840 --> 00:09:37.000 Bedford for life and he wanted out of it. And 165 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.159 so he went to his godfather of Willie Murriotty, and 166 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:45.039 he along with another guy who was an enforcer and 167 00:09:45.559 --> 00:09:48.320 worked for Murder In Corporated, they went and paid him 168 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:51.639 a visit Dorsey at his facility and they had to 169 00:09:51.759 --> 00:09:54.919 chat with him, said either you dropped the contract bight 170 00:09:55.000 --> 00:09:58.000 out for a dollar right now, or you're going to die. 171 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:01.960 And the hitman pulled out a gun, put it up 172 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.240 to him and said signed the contract away, in which 173 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:09.840 he did. And because of that, Frank was very very happy. 174 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:12.480 One because he got out of it. But two now 175 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:16.320 he owed the mob a great deal and he paid 176 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:19.879 for his entire life. Tell us about his ascension as 177 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:23.200 a performer, and you had mentioned that the mob was 178 00:10:23.279 --> 00:10:26.039 spending money to be able to help his career, but 179 00:10:26.200 --> 00:10:30.399 tell us how the mafia controlled the clubs and in 180 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:34.000 his ascension as a performer, and before we introduced Sydney 181 00:10:34.120 --> 00:10:38.360 Korshak and Johnny ROSSELLI, Yeah, well he was, I said, 182 00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:41.679 performing in mob clubs for better from whether they were 183 00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:45.120 large or small, round New Jersey than to New York. 184 00:10:45.240 --> 00:10:47.120 And they would have him come in, they would pay 185 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:50.080 him whatever they paid him for that night's singing, and 186 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:54.000 he was indebted to them, and so they kept expanding 187 00:10:54.039 --> 00:10:56.159 that and well, we want you to go here and 188 00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:59.440 play for so and so at his clum and he 189 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:02.320 would do it. We get paid. And also that helped 190 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:05.840 him start to be established as a scene star. You 191 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:10.000 think of any major entertainer today. That started out very 192 00:11:10.080 --> 00:11:12.639 young as singer, and so you have the groupies and 193 00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.320 the young kids, and his case was the young girls 194 00:11:15.399 --> 00:11:18.639 of teens and everything started following him and that's where 195 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:21.759 it all started, his fan base, and they just kept 196 00:11:21.799 --> 00:11:24.960 that going through their various clubs as they expanded out. 197 00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:28.399 Tell us about Sam g and Kanna and the relationship 198 00:11:28.519 --> 00:11:31.039 that develops between Sinatra and him. 199 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.320 Sam Gy and Kanna was at that time the godfather 200 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:38.200 of the Chicago outfit. He was running the Stagum off 201 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:41.240 of them, and he was Momo. Was kind of a 202 00:11:41.360 --> 00:11:44.799 crazy guy at a hot temper, but he knew enough 203 00:11:44.879 --> 00:11:49.200 to keep it under control at times. And Sinatra went 204 00:11:49.240 --> 00:11:52.919 to him and wanted to get to know him because 205 00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:55.320 he knew he could elevate him in the entertainment world. 206 00:11:55.519 --> 00:11:58.399 And Sam took a liking to him. It was kind 207 00:11:58.399 --> 00:12:01.759 of like a nun olman, a nephew situation, a father 208 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:03.720 and son. He took him under his wing and he 209 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:08.200 would help Frank along the way. If Frank Brandon then difficulty, 210 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.679 he couldn't get a singing gig somewhere. All Sam had 211 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:13.440 to do was make a call and all of a 212 00:12:13.440 --> 00:12:16.000 sudden he got the give and so that was the 213 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:19.159 help that he was giving him. And also when Kennedy, 214 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:22.120 John Kennedy was looking and running for the president, his 215 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.840 father Joe Kennedy contacted Sam g and Conna and Frank 216 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:30.720 Sinatra and Frank then he met his house and they 217 00:12:30.799 --> 00:12:33.240 had a long talk and he said, listen, I need 218 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:36.799 basically the Bob's help to get John elected in Chicago 219 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:40.000 and on the East Coast. And Frank went to Sam 220 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:43.200 g and Kanna and they had a long conversation about it. 221 00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:46.159 He was sure, we'll help him and we'll see what 222 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:49.000 can be done. And they forbid it from they fought 223 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:53.480 him the election through cast and intimidation. So that was 224 00:12:53.559 --> 00:12:57.120 a long standing relationship. And also as time went by, 225 00:12:57.679 --> 00:12:59.600 there's a count day of a lodge out in the 226 00:12:59.679 --> 00:13:04.639 Vlo like Tahoe, and Frank was the guy who supposedly 227 00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:07.240 owned it, but it was really Sam Giaconna put most 228 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:10.480 money into it. So Sam would go there undercover. He 229 00:13:10.600 --> 00:13:13.320 wasn't supposed to be there because of the gaming restrictions, 230 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:17.080 and he would stay in the little cabin and Frank 231 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:20.159 would go there. And also, well what happened is Joe 232 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:24.039 Kennedy the patriarch of a family. He would secretly visit 233 00:13:24.279 --> 00:13:27.200 and they would supply him with prostitutes or anything he wanted. 234 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:30.960 And so that got Sam in to know a great 235 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:33.799 deal more than he wanted the probab about the Kennedy family, 236 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:36.279 but also to get them in line in his mind. 237 00:13:36.759 --> 00:13:40.120 And as time went by, a gal named Judah Fechner 238 00:13:40.759 --> 00:13:46.000 came to know Sam through Frank and she became his girlfriend, 239 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:50.279 Sam Giacana's girlfriend, and at the same time she was 240 00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:53.399 introduced to John Kennedy and she was also taken care 241 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:57.360 of John Kennedy, and so that was rather interesting because 242 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:03.480 now Sam Giacanna had blackmailing information on John Kennedy. So 243 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:07.720 one day there was a wiretap on Hoover's people put 244 00:14:07.759 --> 00:14:11.279 a wiretap on Sam g and Conna's home in Chicago, 245 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:15.600 and Kennedy was president and he called to speak of Judith. 246 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:19.440 He didn't realize there was g Econna's home, so Judith 247 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:22.639 was there. She starts talking to John Kennedy and he's 248 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:25.840 being recorded the whole time. And so that was a 249 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:30.279 great coup for jig Or Hoover because after Hoover heard 250 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.679 the tape, he had a meeting of Robert Kennedy and 251 00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:35.320 he said, I want you to listen to this tape 252 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:37.799 and he listened to his brother talking to this gal 253 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:40.080 about what they're going to do and what they've done 254 00:14:40.120 --> 00:14:42.440 in the past, and he said, do you know what 255 00:14:42.720 --> 00:14:46.120 phone number that is? And Robert Kon didn't know. That's 256 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:50.200 Sam g Conna's house, that's Sam Gcanna's girlfriend. And your 257 00:14:50.279 --> 00:14:55.080 brother is also doing Jude Defectioner. So at that time, 258 00:14:55.759 --> 00:14:58.480 Hoover was basically way ahead of the game as far 259 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:00.840 as black male and Kennedy knew that he would never 260 00:15:01.320 --> 00:15:03.679 be fired because of the information that he had. So 261 00:15:04.080 --> 00:15:08.279 it was a very long term, very in depth relationship 262 00:15:08.679 --> 00:15:11.440 and agreements that were made between Sam g and Kana, 263 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:15.120 Frank Sinach or Judithectioner, and the Kennedys. It sounds like 264 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:16.559 a movie, but it's all too real. 265 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:20.639 And what was Sinatra supposed to do in his role? 266 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:24.240 What were they counting on him to do specifically. 267 00:15:24.039 --> 00:15:26.879 The Mob or the Kennedys. The mob? The mob, well, 268 00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:29.559 the mob. What they were hoping for and they thought 269 00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:31.960 they would get is that once they were tight and 270 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:35.360 they really got the election, they took John Kennedy over 271 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:38.600 the threshold to become president they thought this is great, 272 00:15:39.080 --> 00:15:42.000 they owe us because they thought Joe Kennedy they made 273 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:44.559 the deal with, and that Joe Kennedy from his past 274 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:47.679 bootlegen everything that he would for better term keep the deal. 275 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:51.759 And so they were looking for just no involvement of 276 00:15:51.879 --> 00:15:55.960 the FBI or department justices coming after the Mob activities, 277 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:59.159 whether it's book making, whether it was running drugs, whether 278 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:02.759 it was prostitute and extortion, whatever. They thought they were 279 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:05.360 going to have a free hand in their territories to 280 00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:07.679 do what they wanted to do. But what happened is 281 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.919 Robert Kennedy was appointed Attorney General, which they never saw coming, 282 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:16.039 and he started to investigate them, go after people in 283 00:16:16.120 --> 00:16:19.759 the Mob, and so they felt betrayed and there was 284 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:25.200 no love loss at that point between the Mob and JFK. 285 00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.120 And also Frank Sinatra because he was the middleman during 286 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:33.240 wellness and so they were upset with a number of people, 287 00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:36.600 but they didn't know quite have to handle it at 288 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:37.600 that stage. 289 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:40.320 Frank Sinatra being a middleman. But what were the people 290 00:16:40.480 --> 00:16:44.039 that were in the crossairs of Bobby Kennedy related to 291 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:45.039 Frank Sinatra. 292 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.000 Well, a lot of them didn't have a direct relationship 293 00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:52.200 with Frank Sinatra. They're just mob guys and different families 294 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:56.600 throughout the country and al Chicago. A lot of the 295 00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.799 mob guys never met Sinatra, you know they were, but 296 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:03.000 they were lower down soldiers and everything. But what you 297 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:06.079 always do an organized crime est is you tried to 298 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:09.480 pick off a low hanging fruit because that way you 299 00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:11.839 can get them. They're the ones that are out there 300 00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:14.680 doing the crimes for a better term, and you can 301 00:17:14.759 --> 00:17:17.920 start to squeeze them and hopefully turn them into rolling 302 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.480 over the person that they work for, and you keep 303 00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:23.920 going up that chain of command. So that's what they 304 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:27.480 were hoping for as far as DOJ and the mob 305 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:30.480 were hoping that that would never happen, but it started 306 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:33.720 to happen. So they were picking up lower hanging fruit guys. 307 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:36.519 That was causing a lot of stress to the mob 308 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:38.400 because they didn't know when these people would start to 309 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:42.240 turn informant. And they were also focusing on the higher 310 00:17:42.359 --> 00:17:45.079 up some of the mob bosses they wanted to take down. 311 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:48.480 So it was a very intense time as far as 312 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:51.599 investigation of the mob, and then the mob started to 313 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:56.079 fight back. So it was a situation that started, basically 314 00:17:56.079 --> 00:17:58.359 a war that started, but nobody knew how with them. 315 00:17:58.799 --> 00:18:03.079 You chronicle part of this in your book, your incredible 316 00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:06.640 book Bombshell, about Marilyn Monroe and Bobby Kennedy and John F. 317 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:10.440 Kennedy's rule in her death. You talk about Frank Sinatra 318 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:14.880 and Marilyn Monroe and being a middleman in a different 319 00:18:14.960 --> 00:18:16.720 way with the Kennedys. 320 00:18:16.839 --> 00:18:20.599 Yeah, and bombshows just how he was for a better 321 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.519 term setting up Marilyn Monroe and the Kennedys along the 322 00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:26.759 help of Peter Lawford. And so that's really where the 323 00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:31.279 introduction came with Marilyn Monroe. And then the affair started 324 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:35.920 with Jack Kennedy. And after he for better backed out 325 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:39.279 for whatever reason, then his brother Robert was the man 326 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.079 to told him that Jack was not going to be 327 00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:43.599 seeing you any longer. Then he started to coffair with 328 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:47.759 Maryland and it continued, and at that stage it was 329 00:18:47.799 --> 00:18:50.359 intersesting because Peter Lawford was put in the middle, but 330 00:18:50.519 --> 00:18:54.720 also Sinatra was still he want to friends with the Kennedys, 331 00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:59.799 and Sinatra at his house in walm Springs had a 332 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.000 being built on because it was his understanding was free 333 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:05.359 to you that John Kennedy was going to fly and 334 00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:08.000 some of California asked President and he was going to 335 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:11.920 stay at Sinatra's house in Palm Springs, and that was 336 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:15.240 shut down after he built a huge add on and 337 00:19:15.319 --> 00:19:18.160 brought new telephone lines in from the Secret Service and everything, 338 00:19:18.480 --> 00:19:22.440 because Robert told him about his connections to the mob, 339 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.119 which John Kennedy probably already knew, but he had had 340 00:19:25.160 --> 00:19:27.359 it laid out during that way, and that it would 341 00:19:27.359 --> 00:19:30.119 have been a very bad idea for the President to 342 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:34.039 spend time at Frank Sinatra's house in Palm Springs because 343 00:19:34.440 --> 00:19:35.839 there are a lot of mob guys down there at 344 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.799 the time. So he backed out at the last minute. 345 00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:44.880 Sinatra was furious, and Sinatra at that point basically started 346 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:48.160 to hate for Kennedys. And he also started taking it 347 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.119 out on Peter Lawford because Lawford was at that stage 348 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:54.200 he was a brother in law to the Kennedy family 349 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:59.240 and Sinatra was not happy at all. And also at 350 00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:02.559 the time, Peter Lawferd was married to one of the 351 00:20:02.680 --> 00:20:06.880 sisters of Kennedy's and Sinatra start having an affair with her. 352 00:20:07.079 --> 00:20:09.119 So if you get closer to the Kennedys, and this 353 00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.079 is backing it up a little bit of time. Excuse me. 354 00:20:12.279 --> 00:20:16.880 So he was very upset that after having an affair 355 00:20:17.079 --> 00:20:21.799 with Peter Lawferd's wife, the sister John and Robert Kennedy, 356 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:24.759 that everything fell apart and he thought he was going 357 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:28.160 to be so close with the President into the White House, 358 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.599 but his connections to the mob hurt him in that respect. 359 00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:35.000 Yes, the relationship suffered somewhat as a result from that. 360 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:36.680 There was some name calling. 361 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:41.440 Tell us more about the campaign against the US Mafia, Well, it. 362 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:44.440 Was ongoing for some time. Once Robert Kennedy came in, 363 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:48.720 he expanded the number of investigators he had and DOJ 364 00:20:49.279 --> 00:20:54.160 attorneys prosecutors assigned just to going after the mob. And 365 00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:58.200 then he would send in groups of attorneys and investigators 366 00:20:58.279 --> 00:21:02.839 from the FBI and DEOG ind of cities such as Chicago, Detroit, 367 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:06.200 New York to start just focusing on the mob, to 368 00:21:06.359 --> 00:21:08.240 go after them, to try to get as many of 369 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:12.640 them as they could indicted, and that was his main quest, 370 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.119 and there were some indictments. There were a lot of 371 00:21:15.359 --> 00:21:21.200 interesting situations where they basically interviewed Sinatra, but he wouldn't 372 00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:24.799 come into a hearing situation. They had to go to 373 00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:28.440 his hotel and interview him over connections and naturally he 374 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:32.000 deny knowing anything, knowing who these people were and so on, 375 00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:35.799 but everybody knew he was lying at that stage. But 376 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:41.240 the investigations went on really until JFK was assassinated and 377 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:44.160 then they started to wind down. But it was a 378 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:47.400 very intense investigation. It wasn't for lack of trying. But 379 00:21:48.200 --> 00:21:52.559 it's difficult to indict mob bosses with that one of 380 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.559 the copos below them, or soldiers becoming an informant. It's 381 00:21:56.640 --> 00:21:59.799 just it's nearly impossible. And so they went on as 382 00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:03.640 we could, but once Kennedy was assassinated, it was pretty 383 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:04.079 much over. 384 00:22:04.680 --> 00:22:09.400 Shortly after this assassination, we mentioned in the introduction something 385 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:12.279 happens regarding Frank Sinatra and his family. 386 00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:15.640 Are you talking about the kidnapping? Yes, yeah. Shortly after 387 00:22:16.119 --> 00:22:20.079 jft's assassination, Frank Sinatra Junior was playing at a hotel 388 00:22:20.599 --> 00:22:24.960 Lake Tahoe, started a singing career, and he was kidnapped 389 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:28.720 from his hotel room. And nobody knew who did this 390 00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.000 at the time, but he was tired of he was 391 00:22:31.119 --> 00:22:33.200 gag He was put in front of the car. The 392 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:37.519 people kidnapping were driving to La and so when Frank 393 00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:40.440 heard about it. You would think that the first call 394 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:43.720 would be to the police the FBI, because he could 395 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:46.119 have gotten hold of the head of the FBI and so, 396 00:22:46.279 --> 00:22:48.519 what's going on, how are you doing this? How he 397 00:22:48.599 --> 00:22:52.079 had an investigation? Well, he didn't do that. His first 398 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.400 call went to Gacom because he, as most people then, 399 00:22:56.680 --> 00:22:59.759 thought that it was probably some lob guy for kidnapping. 400 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:04.759 And the next call after Sam Gkanta said okay, I'll look, 401 00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:06.319