Speaker 1: And yet I ask him, it's not an alien force.
Speaker 2: Already among.
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the show. I'm very
Speaker 1: excited to have this guest here today to talk about
Speaker 1: a subject I can tell they have researched extensively. The
Speaker 1: guest is Nicholas Saint Germaine. Nicholas, thank you for coming on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, glad to be here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I already like where we were going
Speaker 1: with the conversation talking about Paracelsus and Nicholas Filmel and
Speaker 1: some of these legendary alchemists. I know today we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about Count Saint Germain today. And before I
Speaker 1: get too far ahead here, I know you have a
Speaker 1: book published, but also you could tell everyone about yourself
Speaker 1: some of you would like, or start anywhere you would like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, I say we start with the Count
Speaker 2: of Saint Germain and go from there. Sure. Now, I
Speaker 2: think in the broadest of strokes, people who have heard
Speaker 2: something about the Count of Saint Germaine probably know that
Speaker 2: somewhere in a not too distant past, a couple of
Speaker 2: centuries ago, there was this person, a European but a
Speaker 2: name of Count of Saint Germain, and he had some
Speaker 2: legendary attributes, so he was thought to be very long lived,
Speaker 2: perhaps immotal. He was extraordinary wealthy, even though he was
Speaker 2: not clearly noble, and he was not employed with a
Speaker 2: specific trade that people could identify. And he was eccentric, unusual,
Speaker 2: or just strange, depending on how you want to pray emit.
Speaker 2: So that's the broadest of strokes, and now we can
Speaker 2: kind of start to fill in some of the details.
Speaker 2: So got this European man. He is very likely of
Speaker 2: noble descent, because at that time you couldn't really hobnob
Speaker 2: with the kings and the queens of the societies without
Speaker 2: being royal yourself in some ways. Most likely theory about
Speaker 2: his birth and his ancestry is that he is a
Speaker 2: descendant of a prince of Hungary, the Rakotsi dynasty. He
Speaker 2: was born around seventeen twelve, so early eighteenth century. His
Speaker 2: official death is recorded at seventeen eighty four, so towards
Speaker 2: the end of that same century. And as I said,
Speaker 2: unclear origins, but always in a good company company of royalty.
Speaker 2: He has an unclear source of wealth as well, but
Speaker 2: he is very wealthy. He does not borrow money, and
Speaker 2: he shows himself an opulence. He is often undertaking large enterprises.
Speaker 2: He is a very skilled musician. That's something that we
Speaker 2: can verify because there are plenty of musical sheets and
Speaker 2: notes that are still left up, perettas and sonatas and
Speaker 2: things like that. He is well spoken. He speaks multiple
Speaker 2: languages as well. He has excellent knowledge of history, and
Speaker 2: he is at that time was famously known for his
Speaker 2: chemical work, dies paints, things like that. He keeps very
Speaker 2: much to himself and a few close friends. And out
Speaker 2: of all of this come a lot of legends. And
Speaker 2: legends are interesting, and I will touch on them in
Speaker 2: just a moment, but I always like to start with
Speaker 2: things that people can actually dig into and verify, because
Speaker 2: legends are fun, and that's the other place. But history
Speaker 2: itself is quite interesting. And so here's some people off
Speaker 2: the top kind of that have written about him. So
Speaker 2: contemporary Horace Walpole, he is a British politician, and he
Speaker 2: was one of the first people who wrote about Saint
Speaker 2: Germain in around seventeen forty five. So again in the
Speaker 2: eighteenth century, count of Saint Germaine is present in England,
Speaker 2: and so they for whatever reason that the British government
Speaker 2: arrests him, and they say that despite repeated requests, he
Speaker 2: will not tell who he is or where he came from.
Speaker 2: But he tells others that he possesses and professes wonderful things.
Speaker 2: One is that he is not truly Count of Saint
Speaker 2: Germaine as an like that as a taken name in alias.
Speaker 2: And second that he has never had any dealings with
Speaker 2: any woman or any other person, meaning that he had
Speaker 2: no relationship status. Right, He's very private about his personal affairs,
Speaker 2: romantic affairs. You can interpret it as you will, but
Speaker 2: this is just something that he is kind of keeps
Speaker 2: out of the limelight at the time where any kind
Speaker 2: of romantic gossip is the sort of thing of the day,
Speaker 2: and the Prince of Wales has this unsatiate curiosity about him,
Speaker 2: but he will not reveal anything about himself, so it's
Speaker 2: kind of a mystery person. He is arrested because he
Speaker 2: suspected of being a spy. Obviously somebody not using his
Speaker 2: real name, but being present in the government circles raises suspicion,
Speaker 2: and eventually he is told to to move on. He
Speaker 2: can't really be arrested because he hasn't broken any laws,
Speaker 2: but all the same, he raises suspicion you have another
Speaker 2: famous person, Voltaire or Francois ar what he says, He
Speaker 2: makes us rather famous quote in one of his memoirs
Speaker 2: that Saint Germaine is a man who does not die
Speaker 2: and who knows everything. And we kind of lose a
Speaker 2: bit in then without the context. But he also says
Speaker 2: that you know, this is a man who does not
Speaker 2: shut up. He is He describes Count of Saint Germaine
Speaker 2: as somebody who really likes to talk. He likes to
Speaker 2: talk endlessly, and he knows everything, you know. But it's
Speaker 2: kind of like said the button judge, we have let's
Speaker 2: see who else. We have a lend graph of Hessan Phillips,
Speaker 2: a German, or rather famous German at that time, and
Speaker 2: he is one of the first people who kind of
Speaker 2: clears or presents a positive image of Saint Germaine. He
Speaker 2: says he is not a Seco fan. He is a
Speaker 2: man of good society, and many people are pleased to
Speaker 2: attach themselves to him. He stands in close relation with
Speaker 2: many men of considerable importance. He exercises incomprehensible influences on them.
Speaker 2: And here there's a little bit of a quote that's
Speaker 2: quite interesting because it will bear some importance later, and
Speaker 2: he says he, as a Saint Germaine, is supposed to
Speaker 2: have intercourse with ghosts and supernatural beings who appear at
Speaker 2: this call. So this is the first time in the
Speaker 2: writings of his contemporaries that we get this explicit mention
Speaker 2: that there's something more to us count to Saint Germain.
Speaker 2: He's not just a noble man who is multilingual and
Speaker 2: has an interest in chemistry. He is also he has
Speaker 2: this other interest and you may call it experimental signs
Speaker 2: of the day or spiritualism orccultism, but there's definitely that,
Speaker 2: and we will come back to that because that is
Speaker 2: something that will reappear in the accounts of others. Another
Speaker 2: very famous account is from a character that's no imagined
Speaker 2: almost everyone, Casanova, who was living at around the same time,
Speaker 2: and they do intersect with each other, and I get
Speaker 2: the sense, like if you read Casanova's memoirs, which are
Speaker 2: fascinating and really fun to read, that Casanov really wants
Speaker 2: to kind of dislike Saint Germaine in some ways because
Speaker 2: he sees him as a competitor. Casanova was great at
Speaker 2: some things, and he was quite obvious about being, you know,
Speaker 2: in some ways an adventure in a charloattan and by
Speaker 2: no other ways. But he kind of suspected that other
Speaker 2: people who presented themselves as somewhat dramatic magnificent were also
Speaker 2: other way is similar people, as in like they were
Speaker 2: swindlers of some sort. And so that's kind of his
Speaker 2: impression as well. He says a lot of video quote this.
Speaker 2: He goes out to Genner says, I meet with a
Speaker 2: famous adventure googles by the name of Countess Germaine. And
Speaker 2: this individual, instead of eating, talked from the beginning of
Speaker 2: the meal to the end. And I followed in his
Speaker 2: example in one respect, as I did not eat, but
Speaker 2: listened to the greatest attention. It may be safely said
Speaker 2: as a conversationalist he was unequaled. He gave himself out
Speaker 2: to be a marvel and always aimed at exciting amazement,
Speaker 2: which he often succeeded in doing. He was a scholar,
Speaker 2: a linguist, a musician, a chemist, good looking, and a
Speaker 2: perfect ladies man. And this is coming from Casanova, so
Speaker 2: that's quite some praise. But he later on kind of
Speaker 2: goes on to somewhat sour this impression. He says, this
Speaker 2: extraordinary man, intended by the nature to be the king
Speaker 2: of imposters and quacks, would say in an easy assured
Speaker 2: man that he was three hundred years old, that he
Speaker 2: knew the secret of universal medicine, that he possessed mastery
Speaker 2: over nature, that he could melt diamonds, and he said
Speaker 2: this was all a trifle to him. And so you
Speaker 2: kind of get the stunts and thought like, this guy's
Speaker 2: very critical, surely he's making this stuff up. But then
Speaker 2: he finishes with a surprising endy. He says, nonewithstanding his boasting,
Speaker 2: his bare faced lies, and his manifold eccentricities, I cannot
Speaker 2: say I thought him offensive. In spite of my knowledge
Speaker 2: of what he was, and in spite of my own feelings,
Speaker 2: I thought him an astonishing man, and he was always
Speaker 2: astonishing me. So it's kind of a curious social interaction.
Speaker 2: Saint Jermaine presents himself this in this bombasta grand way,
Speaker 2: and Casanova's as well. You know, he's one of us, right,
Speaker 2: He's like one of these dudes who's drifting around and
Speaker 2: things like that, but he can never really kind of
Speaker 2: catch him out Casanova often borrows money and has to
Speaker 2: flee because he kind of sleeps with somebody. He shouldn't
Speaker 2: think things like that, But counpus in Jamine doesn't have
Speaker 2: this reputation.
Speaker 1: Yes, I want to jump in and says, I've been
Speaker 1: real quick. There's an American phrase you hear in rap
Speaker 1: songs a lot, They say real recognize is real.
Speaker 2: That's right, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1: And I just one other thing I want to point
Speaker 1: out is that that's how you know it's big coming
Speaker 1: from Casanova to call this ladies man as well, that's.
Speaker 2: Big, right, yeah, yeah, especially again because Cassano was extremely
Speaker 2: boastful of his affairs and Saint Jermaine throughout the entire time,
Speaker 2: and a lot of people wrote about him. It's not
Speaker 2: known to have any interaction at all with anybody, So
Speaker 2: that's that's quite something. It's a bit of a mystery there.
Speaker 2: We have other accounts, for example, that there's a certain
Speaker 2: stuff and Felicite she's another count, and she said that
Speaker 2: she's known Saint Germain for some time and that he
Speaker 2: has traveled a great deal. She knew an extraordinary amount
Speaker 2: of history, and so he spoke very well of ancient
Speaker 2: people as if he lived with them, and she makes
Speaker 2: a distinction that he is a well known historian. He's
Speaker 2: not claiming to be ancient. He's just so well read.
Speaker 2: Let's say that his stories. Remember, social interaction at that
Speaker 2: time is very much storytelling around fireplace kind of a thing, right,
Speaker 2: rather than Facebook. So he was a good storyteller and
Speaker 2: people really like his storytelling. His principles were the loftiest,
Speaker 2: and he complied with all exteriors duties of religion, which
Speaker 2: was another thing. He complies with the surface presentations of religion.
Speaker 2: He's not a religious person at all in fact, and
Speaker 2: that later comes to quite a bit, but he is
Speaker 2: willing to go along with that at that time because
Speaker 2: religion is still a big part of most people's society.
Speaker 2: He's very charitable and everyone agrees that his morals were
Speaker 2: a purist. He's a good physician, great chemist. He painted
Speaker 2: in oils and painted pictures of pictures in which people
Speaker 2: were shown where in jewelry that gleamed and reflected light
Speaker 2: as of made with real stones. So again we kind
Speaker 2: of come back to this idea that there's something about
Speaker 2: this person and being able to present paints, dyes, colors,
Speaker 2: and here I think a little diversion is in order,
Speaker 2: because right now, if you say, well, look at somebody
Speaker 2: painted a great picture and it looks very realistic it
Speaker 2: or with great colors, it doesn't really impress. But back
Speaker 2: in the eighteenth century, as an artist, as a painter,
Speaker 2: you make your own pigments, Like if you want something
Speaker 2: to look green, it's not like you go down to
Speaker 2: the store and you pick from the fifty shades of
Speaker 2: green or whatever. You have to make your own pigments,
Speaker 2: and you have to bind them, and you have to
Speaker 2: mix them, and often they decay. So it's a whole
Speaker 2: art be able to develop paints and colors and dyes,
Speaker 2: and it's in its infancy still because pigments at that
Speaker 2: time primarily are coming from organic sources, so plants and animals,
Speaker 2: insects as well. And he Saint Germain, that is, is
Speaker 2: a pioneer in the sense is that he seems to
Speaker 2: be experimenting and working with mineral dyes, so taking metals
Speaker 2: for example, like iron oxide and using that for colorings
Speaker 2: and things like that, zinc instead of other white substitutes,
Speaker 2: and so interesting stuff. This chemical angle keeps coming back,
Speaker 2: and of course, as we talked about in the beginning,
Speaker 2: Alchemy is the name of chemistry at that time, right,
Speaker 2: there's no chemistry yet it's it's all called alchemy, and
Speaker 2: not in a derisive or a different ways. Alchemy is
Speaker 2: simply the knowledge of working with chemicals at that time.
Speaker 2: And let's see another person, Carl Heinrich Berean von Glehin.
Speaker 2: He says of Saint Germain that Saint Germain has never
Speaker 2: claimed to possess supernatural knowledge. He says that he was
Speaker 2: very simple, robust individual. He was dressed with magnificent simplicity,
Speaker 2: and he is known to possess chemical secrets, making of colors, dies,
Speaker 2: making ways of how other metals resemble gold, and that
Speaker 2: he has a very strict regime, never drinking while eating,
Speaker 2: keeping to a certain diet. And that's all he advised
Speaker 2: to anybody who asked them how to prolong their lives.
Speaker 2: He'd always advised the same diet that he had, and
Speaker 2: this is one of the key elements of his life.
Speaker 2: Right again, his mysteries, mysteries of Saint Germain are essentially three.
Speaker 2: He's thought to be very long lived, and for that account,
Speaker 2: he has a particular diet that he follows. He has
Speaker 2: thought to have extraordinary knowledge of the past, which is
Speaker 2: either attributed to well his studies or travel or both.
Speaker 2: Unless he is known for his chemical knowledge and including
Speaker 2: various dies and perhaps health related things.
Speaker 1: On the alchemy front, it sounds like he was using
Speaker 1: alchemy as a way to make these paints or yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's I've never considered that, Like he was, Like, you
Speaker 1: brought up a good point there where he's probably having
Speaker 1: to go out and forwards maybe and find berries or
Speaker 1: other sorts of items of nature to which he could
Speaker 1: derive the materials for paint.
Speaker 2: That's interesting to me, right, and that I believe also
Speaker 2: connects to his wealth because at this time there are
Speaker 2: advances in textiles. So for example, weaving industry is starting
Speaker 2: to advance. There's steam most used for travel, but also
Speaker 2: for weaving clothes, and clothes come on like two or
Speaker 2: three different colors. Right, There's not a lot of dyes
Speaker 2: that are available that could be cheaply mass produced. He
Speaker 2: is going in that particular direction. Specifically, he's like, how
Speaker 2: can I make dyes that last a long time, that
Speaker 2: survive washing, and that could be produced on mass because
Speaker 2: somebody who can unlock that makes a very hefty chunk
Speaker 2: of change. Not talking about dying with berries, but let's
Speaker 2: say chemical dyes that last a long time, that could
Speaker 2: be from crushing or something like that, acids and other
Speaker 2: things like that. Now you're talking about an industry that's
Speaker 2: considerably larger than just something that you do in your
Speaker 2: own kind of like bath or whatever. Right, So lots
Speaker 2: of money to be made that way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, wow, yeah, yeah, that's it. You know, I
Speaker 1: was I was probably shooting it short by saying berries
Speaker 1: like it sounds like he was really really using alchemy
Speaker 1: to make these paints. And I wonder how much of
Speaker 1: this he may have gotten from old text or possibly
Speaker 1: even the Phoenician tradition. I know that he was said
Speaker 1: to have had a purple robe or to be able
Speaker 1: to make purple robes. I think that's a tradition that
Speaker 1: goes back to Tire and Phoenicia. And I wonder if
Speaker 1: he was, you know, had any connection to those people
Speaker 1: who were also seafaring.
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's too interesting. Two kind of tangents where
Speaker 2: he may have got from one, As you said, travel, right,
Speaker 2: the travel is no longer that different called an eighteenth century.
Speaker 2: In fact, you could go from say England to India,
Speaker 2: which is still a long journey, but you could make
Speaker 2: it in four months five months at that time, so
Speaker 2: not a lifetime. You could make it there. You can
Speaker 2: come back, you could go to China, you can go
Speaker 2: to Japan. It's difficult, but not impossible for somebody who's
Speaker 2: willing and interesting enough to go along with merchant ships
Speaker 2: and travel to very distant lands, as from a perspective
Speaker 2: of European anyway, and by traveling to discover things that
Speaker 2: these other cultures have known for a long time but
Speaker 2: are maybe not yet publicly available as knowledge in Europe.
Speaker 2: So you go to India, for example, and you might
Speaker 2: learn about how to fill rubies. You know, you have
Speaker 2: a ruby and you have a fracture in it. The
Speaker 2: art of sealing rubies with certain substitutes, glass like substitutes
Speaker 2: to make them look cleaner has been practiced there for
Speaker 2: a while already, but it was unknown in Europe. So
Speaker 2: it comes back and it says, look, I can take
Speaker 2: this diamond and I can make it cleaner. In today's terms,
Speaker 2: you'd say I'm going to fracture fill this diamond. You know,
Speaker 2: we could do it everything from laser to lead glass,
Speaker 2: but or epoxy or what have you, and other more
Speaker 2: primitive methods, but doing it at that time in Europe
Speaker 2: would seem like magic. Right, So you took the stone
Speaker 2: and had these inclusions and you come back two weeks
Speaker 2: later and it looks cleaner, and you're like, how did
Speaker 2: you do that? Right? It seems wondrous. So that's one
Speaker 2: angle and the other angle is that, you know, especially
Speaker 2: talking about purple, this dye that was so very difficult
Speaker 2: to obtain because its origins, the ingredients were so difficult
Speaker 2: to get. Well, if you can come by a different
Speaker 2: method from something more common, from a metal rather than
Speaker 2: a shell or a plant or anything like that, then yeah,
Speaker 2: you could make yourself a purple robe. And purple was
Speaker 2: the color of nobility because it was so difficult to
Speaker 2: get that purple diet. Well, now you have a different
Speaker 2: way of getting that purple. Of course, you do want
Speaker 2: to show it off, like look what I've got and
Speaker 2: I didn't have to go all the way to Lebanon
Speaker 2: to get that or something like that. Yeah, and you
Speaker 2: know to the point that there's another person, say his
Speaker 2: name Reinhardt, a ministered to one of the Germanic governments
Speaker 2: at the time, he kind of. He said something specific
Speaker 2: about Saint Germaine and his ability. He said his preferred
Speaker 2: occupation was with preparation of all kinds of dies. He
Speaker 2: possessed the art of removing flaws from diamonds, and his
Speaker 2: prescription for health consisted chiefly of a strict diet and
Speaker 2: the tea. And that he's also mentioned as a person
Speaker 2: also mentioned that Sin Jermaine asked for nothing, received nothing
Speaker 2: of least worth, and engage in nothing unbecoming. He lived
Speaker 2: an extremely simple lifestyle and his needs were almost none,
Speaker 2: So it's it's a curious thing. He's very self difishient person,
Speaker 2: which is again in contrast to a lot of various
Speaker 2: adventures at the time. So plenty of people will level
Speaker 2: the accusation of him being a charlattan at that time,
Speaker 2: but ultimately it doesn't really stand up, because a charlatan
Speaker 2: that there has to be a rug pull somewhere, right,
Speaker 2: if you're drifting something, you have to take something from somebody.
Speaker 2: In the end, he didn't. He was you know, maybe
Speaker 2: you disagree to with his methods of producing chemicals or whatnot,
Speaker 2: but in the end, he wasn't borrowing money. He wasn't
Speaker 2: taking money. He was presenting his ideas, and he was
Speaker 2: self sufficient in achieving the ideas. By and large.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he sounds like a businessman. I mean, this all
Speaker 1: sounds very practical. I love history, and this interests me
Speaker 1: because this does appear to be a real figure of history.
Speaker 1: I do want to say that, and your take on
Speaker 1: this makes it more a bit more real, like more
Speaker 1: practical again, to use that word. He must have been
Speaker 1: very extraordinary because we're still talking about him today. But
Speaker 1: how much of this story has become big fish?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: The big fish story? Yeah? Yes, for people listening, it's
Speaker 1: a fisherman catches this huge fish and it's big and
Speaker 1: it's beautiful and it's memorable. But as time goes on
Speaker 1: and as he tells the story ten years later, the
Speaker 1: fish has become bigger and more beautiful.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: How much of this do you think is applied to
Speaker 1: the legend and the legacy of Saint Germain.
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And that's that's
Speaker 2: why I like to for those who are intersted in that,
Speaker 2: can I get into some of these contemporary accounts, because
Speaker 2: I think the legends are fun and we definitely can
Speaker 2: custom But if you look at the actual stuff that happened.
Speaker 2: It's interesting enough on its own, and it's worth knowing
Speaker 2: some of that at least. I mean, we could speculate
Speaker 2: about everything else too, but let's look at what's actually
Speaker 2: there as well, in terms of what's been cross referenced
Speaker 2: or whatever, and you'll find an individual that's actually very interesting,
Speaker 2: even even if no other legends were attribute to that.
Speaker 2: And over time you can kind of see us this,
Speaker 2: Like you said, this big fish thing happened. So you
Speaker 2: have another figure, for example, Maximilian von Lambert. He's a
Speaker 2: person who writes his memoirs again towards the end of
Speaker 2: eighteenth century, about seventeen seventy five, and there's lots of adventures,
Speaker 2: great stuff to read, but I think most of it
Speaker 2: is just yes, like he's a good writer, but he
Speaker 2: doesn't really let the truth get in the way of
Speaker 2: a story, so to speak. Right, So what he claimed
Speaker 2: about Saint Jermaine is things like ambidi sterity, So can
Speaker 2: Saint Jermaine can write with two hands. At the same time,
Speaker 2: he said that Sin Jermain could make diamonds. He said
Speaker 2: he could tame bees and snakes with his music. That
Speaker 2: Sint Jermaine was three hundred and fifty years old, that
Speaker 2: he could communicate with the dead, that kind of a thing.
Speaker 2: And then because this has written this book one manuscripts
Speaker 2: were written at the time that Sin Jermine is still alive.
Speaker 2: Somebody asked him about It's like, so, what do you
Speaker 2: think about this Lamberg guy? Right? He kind of wrote
Speaker 2: some interesting things about you, and he's sin Jermaine said,
Speaker 2: he's a madman. He does not have the honor of
Speaker 2: knowing me. So he had no idea who this person was.
Speaker 2: And he was kind of a bit taken aback. He's like,
Speaker 2: what is this guy on about? Right? Just why is
Speaker 2: he writing this stuff? Some hairs say maybe, but it
Speaker 2: was already ballooning to an absurd degree in his lifetime.
Speaker 2: But there was something useful in the account of Lamberg.
Speaker 2: Lamberg did accurately, if by accidents, say that Saint Germain's
Speaker 2: knowledge of gem work came from his second trip to India.
Speaker 2: So he seems to have at least known that Saint
Speaker 2: Germaine as a part of his life and his work
Speaker 2: was traveling to distant places and getting some information, you know,
Speaker 2: and you could say the Phoenician style, No.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it reminds me of Bolovatsky, who, again with history,
Speaker 1: I think kind of remembering people wrong. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of things get it applied to her that aren't
Speaker 1: necessarily fair, and it's because people haven't gone and done
Speaker 1: the research themselves. They're just repeating something they read in
Speaker 1: an article online or what have you. But she was
Speaker 1: very well traveled, and you know, a lot of her
Speaker 1: knowledge came from that. It wasn't just oh, she's purely
Speaker 1: a charlatan who claims to talk to the Dad. A
Speaker 1: lot of she did have a lot of knowledge and
Speaker 1: that came from her travels. And I can say that
Speaker 1: confidently because she traveled around the world three times before
Speaker 1: she even wrote Is Is Unveiled? So I wonder how
Speaker 1: much of that is. It sounds like that's the same
Speaker 1: type of a story as Saint Germaine.
Speaker 2: It's got that thing into it. And you know, my
Speaker 2: impression is that Levatski never really tried to be, let's say,
Speaker 2: necessarily historically accurate. She was trying to synthesize a bunch
Speaker 2: of things that she was perceiving. And it's easier for
Speaker 2: us today to say, well, you know, I can get
Speaker 2: bajillion books on Hindu traditions or you know, any other
Speaker 2: tradition from various parts of the world world analyze them
Speaker 2: and have an accurate picture. When you're traveling there as
Speaker 2: a European and you kind of just kind of trying
Speaker 2: to figure out what stuffs about. You're going to get
Speaker 2: something wrong, and you're trying to kind of understand that worldview.
Speaker 2: But there's not a lot of guide books and maps
Speaker 2: so speak of the culture and the tradition yet, and
Speaker 2: to us it might seem kind of primitive, but at
Speaker 2: that time it was still best effort. Crawley later on
Speaker 2: would go on to try to synthesize that stuff, and
Speaker 2: like in books like someone seven to seven, right, he
Speaker 2: is trying to see the similarity across religions and traditions
Speaker 2: as well. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
Speaker 2: But it's a tempting idea to say, well, you know,
Speaker 2: these things connect and overlap.
Speaker 1: And I do want to say real quick, I know
Speaker 1: that people are staying out there. I know Lelvatski is
Speaker 1: a lot is contested about her, and she's a controversial figure,
Speaker 1: and I just want to say, you know, I want
Speaker 1: to give people from history a fair shake as much
Speaker 1: as possible, regardless of whether or not I think that,
Speaker 1: regardless of whether or not I agree with their message overall,
Speaker 1: I still think they deserve a fair shake. And I
Speaker 1: think that there's been a lot of demonization of Blovaski
Speaker 1: that's unnecessary. That's that's where I stand with it. But
Speaker 1: I mean, she's will I will agree, she's controversial, and
Speaker 1: maybe she did engage in some fraudulent activity at some point.
Speaker 1: I don't think she was entirely a fraud.
Speaker 2: And since we're talking about that person, they left their
Speaker 2: mark again, same as Crowley, right, you could say, well,
Speaker 2: he was a He was a dramatic individual as well,
Speaker 2: who really likes to put himself up as a listen,
Speaker 2: it's great beast kind of a thing. And whether you
Speaker 2: believe in that or whether you think it's tokum or
Speaker 2: you kind of take it whole heartedly, he made a
Speaker 2: mark on societal presence at that time in the twentieth century. Really,
Speaker 2: it's it's kind of inseparable occultism. Field was really shaped
Speaker 2: by his ideas a lot. So even if you if
Speaker 2: you don't care about his stuff, he is an interesting
Speaker 2: figure and he has a place in history as well.
Speaker 2: So back to Saint Jamaine for a moment. So there
Speaker 2: was a in waiting to Madame de Pompadour. So this
Speaker 2: is Madame de Pompadour is the chief mistress of Louis
Speaker 2: fifteenth at that time, and she wrote fairly detailed memoirs
Speaker 2: on her life and she mentioned Saint Germaine as well,
Speaker 2: which is quite interesting. So she is the one that
Speaker 2: actually mentions the account of Saint Germaine fixing a flower
Speaker 2: inclusion in King's diamond. So this is a big event
Speaker 2: at that time because the King Louis the fifteenth and
Speaker 2: trusts Count of Saint Germaine with its massive diamond. That's
Speaker 2: a pretty big deal. So obviously, you know, you have
Speaker 2: you have to have some credit to have kings give
Speaker 2: you their jewels. And he goes on and he makes
Speaker 2: it better, so he tells a fracture and whatnot, and
Speaker 2: he said that he this guy was kind of an
Speaker 2: enigma to her as well, because he was very plainly dressed,
Speaker 2: very simply dressed, but in good taste, and his pockets
Speaker 2: were pretty much always full of diamonds, and he had
Speaker 2: like diamonds on his finger is it diamonds on his shoes?
Speaker 2: And you know, dimes in a snuff box. He was
Speaker 2: ducked out right like he was. He was properly blinked.
Speaker 2: And one of the quotes that stayed from her is
Speaker 2: company she Germaine in private said to her he said,
Speaker 2: he said, I sometimes I amuse myself not in making
Speaker 2: people believe, but in letting them believe that I lived
Speaker 2: in the most ancient times. So Saint Jermaine at this
Speaker 2: time is already aware that he has got a reputation
Speaker 2: just towards the end of the eighteenth century. He's been
Speaker 2: living there for some time. He likes it. It suits
Speaker 2: him right, it's got some flare, and you know, you
Speaker 2: have to have some presents, right, otherwise it's boring if
Speaker 2: you're just a diplomat or something like, or if you're
Speaker 2: just chemists. So he's schmoozing in the right circles. He
Speaker 2: has to have a persona, so he cannot present himself
Speaker 2: as a wonder man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it sounds like it's that personality and era
Speaker 1: of his that got him into the royal courts and
Speaker 1: got him audience with the kings and the queens. He
Speaker 1: had to have been aware of that extint to where
Speaker 1: you know, the more it's like walking a line. It's
Speaker 1: like I want to be extravagant, but I also want
Speaker 1: to be elegant.
Speaker 2: I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a fool on madman, but
Speaker 1: I need to be mad enough to cause a or
Speaker 1: to gather attention to myself. He must have been mastered.
Speaker 1: He must have mastered walking that line. And it sounds
Speaker 1: like he was a bit of a jeweler. If we
Speaker 1: were to put a modern dirm on on him like that.
Speaker 1: That raises a question. You know, we could come back
Speaker 1: to this later if you'd like. But I do wonder
Speaker 1: where he was able to acquire these diamonds.
Speaker 2: Right exactly, Yeah, very good questions. Right then, If I
Speaker 2: had to take a guess, I'd say it's privateering. He
Speaker 2: was probably engaged in piracy, of some sort of support
Speaker 2: in piracy or something of that sort, something that would
Speaker 2: be seen through the lens of time and a much
Speaker 2: more negative context, but you know, perhaps order of business time. Yes,
Speaker 2: he came to Malta around you know, end of eighteenth
Speaker 2: century as well, which was pretty much given license to
Speaker 2: to plunder the northern African coast because you know, those
Speaker 2: people were different, right, and so it was okay, Yeah,
Speaker 2: infidels and all that.
Speaker 1: Sure, And that reminds me again of the Phoenicians in
Speaker 1: a way, that Mediterranean seafaring culture. These people, I think
Speaker 1: by the time you get to a Saint Germain at
Speaker 1: that period in history, there is I think there's a
Speaker 1: thousand years of seafaring that has happened in that region
Speaker 1: on Malta and crete and you know, tire and side on,
Speaker 1: and he may have been able to insert himself into
Speaker 1: this much older culture and you know, figure out where
Speaker 1: the diamonds are where, or diamond minding mining, who knows?
Speaker 1: Who knows?
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely yeah. One of the last characters that really
Speaker 2: knew him well was a Prince, Charles of Hesse and
Speaker 2: so germanly German prince, and this was supposedly the last
Speaker 2: individual who kind of really was associated with him before
Speaker 2: his death or disappearance, no matter how you want to
Speaker 2: see it. And they they talked at length, and he's
Speaker 2: in his memoirs this Charles Prince. Charles wrote that initially
Speaker 2: he didn't really want to deal to have any dealings
Speaker 2: with this Count of Saint Jamine. He kind of had
Speaker 2: this reputation and it was uncertain, like he's like, I
Speaker 2: don't know if this guy's for real or you know,
Speaker 2: an adventure or something like that. But so he says,
Speaker 2: I was not particularly desirous of making a connection, but
Speaker 2: in the end it became his disciple, and that Countess
Speaker 2: in Jermaine spoke much of improvement of colors, which would
Speaker 2: cost almost nothing, the improvement of metals, and adding that
Speaker 2: it was up to necessary to adhere faithfully to the
Speaker 2: principle that there's almost nothing in nature that you could
Speaker 2: not improve. So he had this idea that he kind
Speaker 2: of kept on going about. Second, we're not talking about
Speaker 2: supernatural wonders, we're just talking about understanding and kind of
Speaker 2: most sound principles. And he had a particular way of
Speaker 2: teaching him as well. So he said he confided in
Speaker 2: means something of the knowledge of nature, but only the
Speaker 2: introductory part, making me then search for myself by experiments
Speaker 2: for the means of succeeding and rejoicing exceedingly in my progress.
Speaker 2: So that was his way. He wouldn't just say, well,
Speaker 2: here you go, here's the formula, go for it. It
Speaker 2: kind of give him starting point and a push and
Speaker 2: then up you go. And yeah, just he was very
Speaker 2: well thought of by this personality and that he said
Speaker 2: he made superb dibes. It cost almost nothing. He didn't
Speaker 2: really ask for anybody, and he was very happy to
Speaker 2: provide what he was learning to others. The only thing
Speaker 2: they clashed on significantly is religion, and he just came
Speaker 2: to Saint Germain spoke disparagingly of Christianity in particular, and
Speaker 2: Prince Charles, who was very religious, he said, I can't,
Speaker 2: I can't let you do this right, and so Saint
Speaker 2: Jermaine kind of was quite for a while, and it's
Speaker 2: said something on along the lines of like, I'm sorry,
Speaker 2: I won't speak like that again, because for me, if
Speaker 2: this religious is nothing, but you you mean a lot,
Speaker 2: so I will I will refrain from making those comments
Speaker 2: and contextuff, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: What was he did? He make remarks about Catholicism in
Speaker 1: the religiosity of it, or you know, Christianity in his doctrine.
Speaker 2: He spoke in particularly critically of Jesus as he perceived
Speaker 2: it in a more let's say, human way rather than
Speaker 2: religious way, so more like a religious leader rather than
Speaker 2: a supernatural being or something like that makes sense. And Charles,
Speaker 2: Prince Charles was involved in some secret societies like Freemasons
Speaker 2: and things like that at the time, and he tried
Speaker 2: to get Countless in Germaine involved in those activities as well,
Speaker 2: but Countless in Jamin s Nachally refused. He said that
Speaker 2: I have nothing to do with those people, and that's
Speaker 2: not my thing. And that's kind of an interesting thing
Speaker 2: because then people went on to claim various associations between
Speaker 2: these secret societies here and there and everywhere, kind of
Speaker 2: a thing of that, you know, Freemasonry had something to
Speaker 2: do with, or Illuminati had something to do with, and
Speaker 2: so on and so forth, but there's no evidence that
Speaker 2: we have that's clear that he was a member of
Speaker 2: those societies. There are other people whose last name was
Speaker 2: also Saint Germaine, by the way, as a side trivia,
Speaker 2: At some point, Countless in Jermaine he had some brothers
Speaker 2: as well, and he knows that his brothers, because they
Speaker 2: were forced to flee their lamb, their original lamb, most
Speaker 2: likely of Hungary, they took on false names and he's like, well,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna take on false name as well, and I'm
Speaker 2: gonna call myself Count of Saint Germain. And people said, well,
Speaker 2: why Saint Germaine Saint Germaine means Holy Brother. I like it.
Speaker 2: I like the way it sounds. So it's a rather
Speaker 2: clear indication that it's an alias, right, It's it's not
Speaker 2: meant to be an actual name. It's not like you
Speaker 2: can find genealogical tres mm hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And you know, I want to point out that just
Speaker 1: to sort of illustrate how far this story has come from.
Speaker 1: Possibly it's its origins. You know, just about every YouTube
Speaker 1: video out there on Saint Germain, at least the ones
Speaker 1: I've seen, claimed that he was a Mason, right, right emphatically, because.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not sure, and there's there's lots of overlap.
Speaker 2: I mean, there was a rather famous and successful soldier
Speaker 2: at that time who also went by count of Saint Germains,
Speaker 2: and he was involved in a number of campaigns in
Speaker 2: Prussia and at least in Russia, I believe, at that time,
Speaker 2: and he achieved some notable victories, and people kind of
Speaker 2: correlated that. Look at that, you know he was there
Speaker 2: as well. Not the same Saint, I mean, it's just
Speaker 2: the same last night. Likewise, if you look through the
Speaker 2: registers of Masons at that time, yeah, you'll find Saint germains,
Speaker 2: and there's a couple of them, but it's it's not
Speaker 2: this one, it's anybody. Just guess who they were. Maybe
Speaker 2: it's the military guy, maybe it's somebody else. But Countess
Speaker 2: in Jamin, of whom we speak here most likely was
Speaker 2: not involved in our societies. But again the Prince, the
Speaker 2: German prince, was involved. And you might actually see why
Speaker 2: this Masonic connection comes to be because despite this rather
Speaker 2: erudite man leaving an imprint on society at that time,
Speaker 2: to these contemporaries and various writings about him, he does
Speaker 2: not seem to leave any writings behind. So it's kind
Speaker 2: of like strange because you know, he's an educated person.
Speaker 2: Why doesn't he publish books or anything like that, or
Speaker 2: why doesn't he write memoirs or what have you? Kind
Speaker 2: of an odd thing. Well, there's some speculation as to
Speaker 2: what exactly he has written. There was one book for
Speaker 2: a while that was i think rather falsely attributed to him,
Speaker 2: called a Price Great Wisdom or Thrice Holy Wisdom or
Speaker 2: something like that. That Train or sofi. It's kind of
Speaker 2: a peculiar of chemical manuscript. Its only relation to Saint
Speaker 2: Germaine is really because in the binding in the opening pages,
Speaker 2: somebody wrote that this book once belonged to Saint Germains.
Speaker 2: So who wrote that? When? Why? Who knows? Maybe it
Speaker 2: is I'm not contesting it. I'm just saying it's kind
Speaker 2: of a flimsy evidence. And the book itself is peculiar
Speaker 2: and one of the later twentieth century figures. Many palmer
Speaker 2: Hall made a lot of it, kind of as in
Speaker 2: he thought it had a rather sophisticated message. Again, maybe
Speaker 2: it does. It's not very clear. It does seem like
Speaker 2: an alchemical manuscript as to its important people can guess
Speaker 2: at that. But there was one book that I, or
Speaker 2: rather manuscript I should not called the book. It was
Speaker 2: not published, it was written that is more closely associated
Speaker 2: with him, and that's the Triangular Book. And presumably if
Speaker 2: you've seen my website you've at least encountered that it's
Speaker 2: a manuscript in the shape of a triangle, which is
Speaker 2: rather interesting. It's ciphered, meaning that it's in code, so
Speaker 2: it does these little funny squiggly symbols instead of letters
Speaker 2: in it. And it's something of a fascination of mine
Speaker 2: and something I've spent a third bit of time and
Speaker 2: of working with and in terms of not just translating
Speaker 2: and publishing it, but later trying to make sense of it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: in eighteen seventy five, so this is past past his lifetime,
Speaker 2: let's say our official lifetime. We have this Mahatma cout figure,
Speaker 2: which is kind of like a precursor of or a
Speaker 2: teacher of Madame Blovotski. I don't know if this person
Speaker 2: is real or not. Somebody who's more into theosophy may
Speaker 2: be able to speak to this, but he is. This
Speaker 2: Mahatma is one of the people who inspired the formation
Speaker 2: of geosophical society. And this person, whoever they were, wrote
Speaker 2: that Saint Germain recorded the good doctrines in figures in
Speaker 2: his seiffered manuscript that remained with a staunch friend and patron,
Speaker 2: the benevolent German Prince Charles. So so it's interesting because
Speaker 2: it's the first reference to this triangular manuscript, and while
Speaker 2: at least it's kind in some ninety years after count
Speaker 2: of Saint Germaine's death. Again, this is the only manuscript
Speaker 2: that seems to be directly correlated or linked to Saint Germain.
Speaker 2: There's no mention of Gino Sophia or anything like that.
Speaker 2: But there is this triangular ciphered manuscript which will be
Speaker 2: something that what can I come to? And Helena Blovatski,
Speaker 2: who you mentioned, we're talking about nineteenth century and the
Speaker 2: nineteenth century. Now she mentions that she came to learn
Speaker 2: about a curious manuscript. It belonged to a fellow a
Speaker 2: theosophical society in Germany. I learned mystics, I learned mystic
Speaker 2: and it is written in mystical characters, half cyphrus, half alphabet,
Speaker 2: and its author is the famous and mysterious account of
Speaker 2: Saint Germain. And she makes it rather obviously. She does
Speaker 2: not know what is in the manuscript, by the way,
Speaker 2: but she takes a guess at it, and I think
Speaker 2: kind of misses the point. But she said that describes
Speaker 2: the location of Garden of Et, but she knows about it.
Speaker 2: So the book, the manuscript has some renowned by this point,
Speaker 2: but not too many people see it, and even less
Speaker 2: know what it's all about.
Speaker 1: Is this the book that you have published that you're speaking?
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, that's correct, Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, So it's I have looked at that,
Speaker 1: you know, it was. It's got some symbolism, it's got
Speaker 1: a dragon. It's got some you know, some some form
Speaker 1: of a language or a scipher and you're saying that
Speaker 1: this was this was known to Bovatsky even.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so it's the book I keep calling the
Speaker 2: book because the manuscript, the manuscript is dated to about
Speaker 2: seventeen fifty, so it's right in the middle of the
Speaker 2: eighteenth century when Saint Germaine was doing his thing, so
Speaker 2: it corresponds to his life then quite well. And there
Speaker 2: are three known copies, each slightly different from each other,
Speaker 2: that have emerged from that around the same time. And yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it's written cipher at what difficulty is decipherable to
Speaker 2: French of the time, So again quite believable. Saint Germaine
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in France, he wrote, he
Speaker 2: spoke French as well, and when deciphered, it presents a
Speaker 2: ceremonial ritual. It's a it's a magical book. It presents
Speaker 2: a ritual through which a person who performs the ritual
Speaker 2: can maintain to one of three gifts or wonders. They
Speaker 2: can extend their life beyond the century with health, and
Speaker 2: like maintaining their health, they can find the location of
Speaker 2: precious stones gold, silver, and other precious things in earth,
Speaker 2: and they can discover things that were lost in the
Speaker 2: seas since the Great upheaval as it calls it, So
Speaker 2: I mean the deluge or whatever, the great flood. So
Speaker 2: reference to ancient times, let's say, ancient cultures, perhaps knowledge
Speaker 2: of ancient things or physical ancient things, so to kind
Speaker 2: of to simplify that, it's like three goals. You have
Speaker 2: your extension of life and health. You have acquisition of
Speaker 2: physical wealth through minds of various sorts, through industry you
Speaker 2: could say, and last acquisition of knowledge, ancient knowledge.
Speaker 1: And was this was there anything to do with the
Speaker 1: Garden of Eden involved with that as well?
Speaker 2: There was nothing to say to the Garden. But I
Speaker 2: think the Garden of Eden it was a little bit
Speaker 2: of a generalization in the sense of if you're talking
Speaker 2: about Garden of Eden, you're talking about time way before humanity.
Speaker 2: Is knowledge, right, it's ancient history stuff. It's not just
Speaker 2: a spiritual thing, but it's it's the kind of stuff
Speaker 2: that happened before at the Ice Age or something like that.
Speaker 2: That's far and the recesses of people's collective memory. So
Speaker 2: ancient ancient history.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and perhaps there are some immortality involved as well
Speaker 1: with that, with the fountain of youth there in a
Speaker 1: tree of life, these sort of things that are said
Speaker 1: to have been there.
Speaker 2: Right, then, if you read the scriptures, you have these
Speaker 2: early generations of humanity that lived for a very long time. Right,
Speaker 2: They're living for thousands of years and things like that.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's hard to know exactly how anyone's counting
Speaker 2: at that time, but still there's this notion that people
Speaker 2: have lived for much longer periods of time. And the
Speaker 2: reason why why I bring up these goals is twofold
Speaker 2: one in this ceremonial magic book. Yeah, these three goals
Speaker 2: that very much line up with Saint Germaine's interest. So
Speaker 2: you know, if someone was wanting to present a material
Speaker 2: that that seems to align with his story, they did
Speaker 2: a good job. So it's very likely that it is
Speaker 2: his work, because it's just it's his thing. Like he's
Speaker 2: into this longevity, he's into a particular diet or what
Speaker 2: have you. He's into having a source of wealth and
Speaker 2: again knowledge of history and things like that. The other
Speaker 2: thing that's kind of interesting about this is that it's
Speaker 2: it makes it somewhat less fantastical. Well maybe not the
Speaker 2: first goal, because just extending your life in the sense
Speaker 2: is interesting and maybe it seems magical, but it's it's
Speaker 2: a book of industry, if you will. It's not like
Speaker 2: I call upon a genie and the genie gave me
Speaker 2: a fat bank account. It's kind of like the genie
Speaker 2: told me, well, here's a minor and effort. Great. You
Speaker 2: still have to be a pretty industrious person to organize yourself,
Speaker 2: to get yourself over there, to create a whole new
Speaker 2: mining set up there, then to haul stuff out, bring
Speaker 2: it to wherever, refine it, sell it. Right. By the
Speaker 2: time you do that, you've got a business. Right. It's
Speaker 2: it's not like money from the sky. You have to
Speaker 2: be a pretty withed person. Likewise, having ancient knowledge. It's
Speaker 2: not great for trivia nights, but if you want to
Speaker 2: actually use it in some ways, you've got to be
Speaker 2: a person who goes to places. If you go to
Speaker 2: India and you learn about the fusing of rubies, that's cool,
Speaker 2: but what do you do with that? Well, you can
Speaker 2: actually go and fuse rubies and sell them and things
Speaker 2: like that, right, or you got mind diamonds and sell
Speaker 2: them and Belgium or what have you. So yeah, it's
Speaker 2: it's a book that kind of pushes you to be
Speaker 2: the kind of person that is great, but through labor,
Speaker 2: not by just a wave of a wand kind of
Speaker 2: a thing.
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, you have to do the work. You have
Speaker 1: to climb them mountain and yeah, yeah, cross an ocean
Speaker 1: perhaps even wow. Yeah, so it's it's the book is
Speaker 1: like his secret, the Secret of Saint Germain in a sense,
Speaker 1: it's like all the things that made him who he
Speaker 1: was perhaps encoded in this book. And so you believe
Speaker 1: that you solved that code? How did you How did
Speaker 1: you find out what it said?
Speaker 2: How did they solve the code? Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Or decipher it?
Speaker 2: Two parts. There's like a part that I'll try to
Speaker 2: pat myself on the back floor, and the other part
Speaker 2: that was kind of given to me, And one's just
Speaker 2: down the earth, the other one's more fantastic. So a
Speaker 2: lot of it was effort. I'm not a cryptologist by
Speaker 2: trained or anything like that. I just I really wanted
Speaker 2: to all of it, and I dedicate a lot of
Speaker 2: time to it, and you know, with perseverance, I was
Speaker 2: able to get there. Also by having read fairly extensively
Speaker 2: in this field, I was able to make some connections
Speaker 2: that other people were not. So the last person who
Speaker 2: owned it the manuscript privately was Manley Palmer Hall, who
Speaker 2: had a society in California that kind of was yesoterically
Speaker 2: minded and things like that. And around the time when
Speaker 2: he was making his purchases, which is like nineteen thirty,
Speaker 2: he had some efforts that decipherment made of the manuscript
Speaker 2: and they were okay. I've looked at those efforts and
Speaker 2: they were just not complete because cipher is multilayered, so
Speaker 2: there's a substitution cipher meaning like this particular quigly bit
Speaker 2: stands for letter E. Let's say, so okay, as if
Speaker 2: as long as you figure out that that symbol maps
Speaker 2: to that, you can start to tryranslated. But there's a
Speaker 2: few difficulties. One, there are absolutely no spacing or punctuations
Speaker 2: in the book, so it's all one great gob of symbols,
Speaker 2: so you have to figure out the word breaks, which
Speaker 2: is annoying. But second, even if you do, then you
Speaker 2: figure you can I get this general text that has
Speaker 2: this ritual. But during a ritual, you're asked to say
Speaker 2: certain words, is magical words as calls to the spirits
Speaker 2: and their gobbletygook. And that's how they were left by
Speaker 2: all the decipherments, because if you're say some kind of
Speaker 2: mathematician or even a cryptanalyst or whatever else, you make
Speaker 2: your best effort to translate this, but you wouldn't know
Speaker 2: what word tetragrammaton means, or you'd expected to see it
Speaker 2: in that text. So if you see it spelled backwards
Speaker 2: or something like that, you just leave it like that,
Speaker 2: because goodness knows what magical words are. So Captain counting
Speaker 2: these words that were just nonsensical, and that's a is
Speaker 2: after decipher in the first layer, and I was like, nah,
Speaker 2: there's gotta be something more to it. And then over
Speaker 2: time it kind of came that they corresponded very closely
Speaker 2: to another list from another book, another Grimore magical book
Speaker 2: called Heptameron Heptameron of Peter attributed to Peter de Abbano.
Speaker 2: And there's Peptameron as another magical book. It's rather elaborate.
Speaker 2: This is not a copy of it, but it's like
Speaker 2: as somebody worked with that text and simplified it and
Speaker 2: made their own custom version of that, or used some
Speaker 2: of the spirits names from that, And so in seeing
Speaker 2: similarities from other occult texts. I was able to decipher
Speaker 2: some of these other bits, and so that's kind of
Speaker 2: the that's the analytical part that stuff, like I said,
Speaker 2: the pattern of back, I did it myself. Explanation that.
Speaker 2: The other explanation is that it's something to do with
Speaker 2: my family. I a long long time ago, as in
Speaker 2: multiple generations on my father's side, my predecessor was involved
Speaker 2: in secret societies because it was the thing to do
Speaker 2: at the time. People went like into Masons, like they
Speaker 2: were into all sorts of about like rotary club these day,
Speaker 2: I guess less all these days, but you know, there
Speaker 2: used to be this big thing pre war, before and
Speaker 2: even after the World War II. Still that's kind of
Speaker 2: stayed around. Men's clubs were an acceptable thing and people
Speaker 2: were into them. So my predecessor was involved in a
Speaker 2: particular group that had connections to the Verian illuminati. So
Speaker 2: he was a records keeper library and essentially there and
Speaker 2: he was in charge of keeping certain books safe. So
Speaker 2: when some of those societies started falling apart and the
Speaker 2: books sold off, he was charged in making sure that
Speaker 2: while those manuscripts could go to private collections, that he
Speaker 2: always knew where they went. While a triangular book was
Speaker 2: one of those, and he had a cipher to it
Speaker 2: that made its way to me through a very long
Speaker 2: period of time. And I thought it was a curiosity
Speaker 2: and almost like a feeble like curiosity when my grandparents
Speaker 2: were talking to me about this when I was a kid.
Speaker 2: But turned out it was a real thing. And when
Speaker 2: around the year two thousand, when many Palmer Hall died
Speaker 2: and his estate had to be sold off, Getty Research
Speaker 2: Institute in Los Angeles bought it. I was like, all right,
Speaker 2: well here we go. So I went there and said, well,
Speaker 2: I have a kind of a claim to this. I
Speaker 2: want to write to this thing. I want to work
Speaker 2: with it because I have some family history, and all right,
Speaker 2: sounds good. The only other people who have come before
Speaker 2: you were just kind of sit and hold the book
Speaker 2: hoping that will kind of like imbue them with magical
Speaker 2: powers or whatever. You're the first one to actually want
Speaker 2: to make sense of it. And so they were very
Speaker 2: agreeable to me working with it and translating it and
Speaker 2: all that stuff, and so yeah, that's kind of how
Speaker 2: it came to be. It's it's all connection.
Speaker 1: Wow, did you did you talk to Ronnie Pontiac? About this.
Speaker 2: No, that does not seemed to ring a bell.
Speaker 1: Well, he's I'm supposed to talk to him soon. He
Speaker 1: was a personal assistant for Manley P.
Speaker 2: Hall.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, I didn't know if you crossed paths
Speaker 1: with him, but no, I was. I think it's interesting
Speaker 1: that you you went to Mainley P. Hall's library in
Speaker 1: LA You made the trip out there and you talked
Speaker 1: to him and you I'm assuming you told them your
Speaker 1: backstory in your connection with this and they were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's you have claim to this book. That's what it
Speaker 1: sounds like.
Speaker 2: I talked to get to Your Research Institute, not to
Speaker 2: although I did talk to PRS, the Philosophical Research Society,
Speaker 2: and I've given a few talks there since, both around
Speaker 2: the publishing of the book and later on because they
Speaker 2: had an interest in it. So they have a copy
Speaker 2: of the book and a lot. But know that the
Speaker 2: book itself, the manuscripts rather, I should say they came
Speaker 2: from get You Research Institute's collection, because that's what it
Speaker 2: is now.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, So you don't have to go into detail
Speaker 1: about this if you do not wish. But you said
Speaker 1: your predecessor was bookkeeping for the Bavarian illuminatis a branch.
Speaker 2: Let me let me specify, right, because it's it's a
Speaker 2: wild claim. Really, that's that's a little interesting side shot there.
Speaker 2: So there was a lodge called the Three Masons, at
Speaker 2: least that's that the English name. I probably wasn't French,
Speaker 2: but I believe that this particular lodge was in Saint Petersburg,
Speaker 2: so Russia the modern day, I suppose, right, and he was, yeah,
Speaker 2: he was a librarian there, okay, and the Saint sorry sorry,
Speaker 2: that the Three Masons was founded or organized by an
Speaker 2: individual called Johann bolber Bo Johannbert I probably missed pronounced that.
Speaker 2: It's German name, but he was one of the original
Speaker 2: illuminati of the the Veryan tradition. Because they were disbanded,
Speaker 2: right like, they were disbanded in the eighteenth century as well,
Speaker 2: they kind of caused some trouble, let's say, and the
Speaker 2: princes weren't very happy with them, so they kind of
Speaker 2: went into various other nearby countries and they've tried to
Speaker 2: organize some things. And you know, people have claimed a
Speaker 2: lot of things since then about this and that and
Speaker 2: the other thing, and I don't know that's that's in
Speaker 2: its own legend. But yeah, this Johann Johann Wilbert organized
Speaker 2: the Three Maces, and that's the connection. That's where my
Speaker 2: predecessor was involved in, like worked as a librarian or
Speaker 2: as a member rather.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, and with with the book itself, with the
Speaker 1: manuscript itself, I don't remember if we touched on this earlier.
Speaker 1: I don't think that we did. I don't know that
Speaker 1: you get of a definitive statement on this. But it
Speaker 1: said that Count Saint Germaine was a master of many,
Speaker 1: many languages, right? How true was that? And did that
Speaker 1: play a part in this code? Was he was he
Speaker 1: borrowing from different languages to produce this code?
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say so. No, The code itself was symbols.
Speaker 2: They look like resicution or Masonic ciphers, but really they're
Speaker 2: just symbols. You know, there's quickly bits in various ways.
Speaker 2: They don't resemble a language. The language underneath this French
Speaker 2: that's rather unambiguous. I tried for other languages when I
Speaker 2: was decip Ferank as well, and this French not too
Speaker 2: archaic either, So it's believably eighteen century French. The magical
Speaker 2: words that are in use are traditional mix of languages
Speaker 2: that you see in the cult remords, meaning that they
Speaker 2: have either Greek or ara Amic or other kind of origins,
Speaker 2: let's say. But that's quite common. The magical tradition is
Speaker 2: rather rich, coming from Semitic languages and some Greek languages
Speaker 2: as well. What's curious, though, is that the book itself,
Speaker 2: it has a few diagrams. You mentioned, say the Winger dragon,
Speaker 2: which is an interesting figure. It has a couple of
Speaker 2: other figures in it. There's one figure that you're supposed
Speaker 2: to placed upon your head. It's like this ritual figure
Speaker 2: that you use during the ritual, and it has a
Speaker 2: lot of all chemical symbols in it. And these symbols
Speaker 2: they are not explained at all, and it's up to
Speaker 2: somebody who is interested enough to decipher that because they're
Speaker 2: further It's like, I don't want to make it seem like, well,
Speaker 2: this is a final story, right is closed. There are
Speaker 2: many mysteries to the book. Still, you know, what are
Speaker 2: those symbols? What do they produce? If you want to
Speaker 2: have an authority in alchemy, like a real authority. I'm
Speaker 2: not talking about like psychologizing or spiritualizing alchemy, that kind
Speaker 2: of happened in the twentieth century, in twenty first century,
Speaker 2: but alchemy as it was as a chemical sort of thing,
Speaker 2: then you have no better authority in today's world than
Speaker 2: Professor Princeshipey Laurence PRIENTSHIPI from Johns Hopskin University. He is
Speaker 2: a head of chemistry there. He has written extensively about
Speaker 2: alchemy in a very sane and level headed way. He
Speaker 2: has also attempted a number of these alchemical procedures and
Speaker 2: have found to be very effective chemical procedures. So he's
Speaker 2: in line of thinking of these are chemical physical experiments.
Speaker 2: There are not trying to be spiritual meditative practices. These
Speaker 2: are chemical practices. And likewise you have these early chemical
Speaker 2: students and practitioners like Robert Boyle who have has practiced
Speaker 2: what might be called alchemy today but really or alchimen
Speaker 2: in the past days, but now it's called chemistry. The
Speaker 2: point of all of this is like when when I
Speaker 2: kind of show them some of this stuff, it's like, well,
Speaker 2: that's interesting. There's a symbol for zinc here zinc being
Speaker 2: a rather new thing for the eighteenth century at the time,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's it's it's a very unambiguously at
Speaker 2: zinc symbol. So it's again, there are things there in
Speaker 2: the book that are not just random squiggles, but likely
Speaker 2: educated after its research and experimental chemistry. I suppose you
Speaker 2: could say. And as to what they depict, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't have enough chemical knowledge to say this is
Speaker 2: a compound for laughing gas, or or a formula for
Speaker 2: immortality or whatever else. But in terms of longevity, by
Speaker 2: the way, his his formula, that's this tee, the Tea
Speaker 2: of Longevity immortality, as it's called. It's it's rather well known.
Speaker 2: It's on my page if you want to go look
Speaker 2: it up, but mixed for a good tea.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So there's so there's a layer to this that
Speaker 1: is I'll just say scientific.
Speaker 2: I would say, so, yeah, like it's.
Speaker 1: It's chemistry, and it's scientific, and it's but it's also alchemy,
Speaker 1: and with alchemy magic magic exactly. I was gary to say,
Speaker 1: I think with alchemy enters the supernatural. And I think
Speaker 1: you said earlier that it was believed that the Count
Speaker 1: talked to ghosts and spirits.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was the interesting oddity. And and thank you
Speaker 2: for reminding me to come back to this, because he
Speaker 2: Count of Saint Germaine has stated his importance of his
Speaker 2: work on dies and things like that, But there really
Speaker 2: was only one outlier to all of the stuff, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you can talk about fixing diamonds and making dies, but
Speaker 2: there was one thing that he claimed rather adamantly to
Speaker 2: multiple people, and that laid well outside of the boundaries
Speaker 2: of what we consider say science, and that is that
Speaker 2: he was the perfect master of spirits. That was his
Speaker 2: repeated claim that he had mastery over the spirits. And today,
Speaker 2: when you make that statement, that places you firmly rather
Speaker 2: into an unscientific camp. Let's say, But in the eighteenth century,
Speaker 2: this early modern science period, the world was not bifurcated
Speaker 2: between science and say spirituality. It was kind of more continuum.
Speaker 2: So today I'm trying to think like the equivalent would
Speaker 2: be experimental science quantum physics. Right, you read about quantum
Speaker 2: physics and it starts to sound like either science fiction
Speaker 2: or magic as well, quantum entanglement and things like that.
Speaker 2: And I think that around eighteenth century his work with
Speaker 2: spirits and magic and the cult and all that stuff
Speaker 2: were was along the same lines, like this experimental edges
Speaker 2: of what is known what is possible, and the book
Speaker 2: itself suggests the same. It's not a chemical recipe for
Speaker 2: better clothes. It's a magical ritual. It's an appeal to
Speaker 2: the spirits to be judged and to be granted wishes
Speaker 2: through supernatural agency.
Speaker 1: M Yeah, And it reminds me of Isaac Newton, who
Speaker 1: was an alchemist who wrote a lot of our chemical manuscripts.
Speaker 1: And you know, I've looked into this a little bit,
Speaker 1: and I think I can say with confidence that early
Speaker 1: science came out of the oicult in my opinion, and
Speaker 1: some of these magical practices would later turn into scientific work.
Speaker 1: And I would have to do a whole show to
Speaker 1: break that down for people. But you know, some of
Speaker 1: the these early methods that these guys were using, that
Speaker 1: in Isaac Newton's time, we was very magical. It's interesting
Speaker 1: to see how far it's come to this, and it's
Speaker 1: in the realm of there's no there's no supernatural in
Speaker 1: this anymore. And so for me personally, I don't struggle
Speaker 1: with the supernatural nature of this realm. Personally, I believe
Speaker 1: that there are things that can happen that a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't believe can happen. I don't get been
Speaker 1: out of shape over the spirit realm and all this
Speaker 1: talk of the spirit realm. So I just want to,
Speaker 1: you know, tell you where I stay in with that.
Speaker 1: I think you can have both. I think both can
Speaker 1: be true. Right. He could be doing supernatural with the
Speaker 1: scientific in mixing it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The only thing I would probably push back on
Speaker 2: the bit is that the term supernatural itself is as
Speaker 2: a bit misguide. I don't think it's supernatural, it's just
Speaker 2: misunderstood or not fully understood or what have you. I
Speaker 2: don't think there's a violation of the laws of nature
Speaker 2: in any sense here. It's just kind of like it's
Speaker 2: out of balance of knowledge. But it does not make
Speaker 2: it invalid in the sense of it. It has to
Speaker 2: break the laws in some ways. Right. So what people
Speaker 2: have called and still do call spirits, You know, you
Speaker 2: could say that it's like collective unconsciousness or some other thing,
Speaker 2: or it could be couldn't snow with what else, some
Speaker 2: kind of vibrations or rays as the hippies used to say.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't change the fact that it's like it
Speaker 2: seems to be something that humanity touches upon throughout its
Speaker 2: existence but can't quite explain. It doesn't have to be
Speaker 2: people wearing white robes flying around somewhere, right. It could
Speaker 2: be a giant lm in the sky that's beaming from
Speaker 2: some other planet or whatever. It could be some other thing,
Speaker 2: but it's still beyond comprehension for now, and so people
Speaker 2: make their best effort explain it.
Speaker 1: Sure, and we might not understand all the elements. We
Speaker 1: understand water and fire, but there could be an ether.
Speaker 1: There could be this energy field out there that we
Speaker 1: do not quite understand that maybe some of these guys
Speaker 1: did understand. In fact, I think it was said that
Speaker 1: friends Mesmer was influenced by Count Saint Germaine. Now a
Speaker 1: treat used the expert on this. You can tell me
Speaker 1: what you think about that. But Mesmer, and I think
Speaker 1: Bullar Lagden as well, his name gets mentioned when you
Speaker 1: talk about Count Saint Germaine and these guys believed in
Speaker 1: this energy field or real or what have you. What
Speaker 1: do you think about that? Is you know, threw a
Speaker 1: lot at you, But tell me what you think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, while I haven't seen direct interactions between Mesmer and
Speaker 2: Saint Jermaine, obviously you have disparity in the time frame
Speaker 2: there Again, you absolutely can have influences like that, you know,
Speaker 2: building upon the other we have very scant evidence like this,
Speaker 2: this is a fairly influential person, obviously, and we have well,
Speaker 2: I guess we're lucky that we have an account from
Speaker 2: maybe a dozen people, but that's not a lot in
Speaker 2: the grand scheme. Who knows who he had talked to,
Speaker 2: He traveled a lot, You may have had a lot
Speaker 2: to do with lots of these figures. Mesmer's work is
Speaker 2: often reduced to hypnotism, which, okay, so it's a start.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's not a bad way to approach it,
Speaker 2: Like you could say that he's a precursor of clinical hypnosis,
Speaker 2: but it sort of reduces it to our current understanding,
Speaker 2: which again is fine. But maybe he was getting at
Speaker 2: something that's a little bit beyond that. And to give
Speaker 2: a modern day example, it's twenty twenty, after all, right,
Speaker 2: you have plenty of people talking to CHGBT and having
Speaker 2: intense emotional responses to them, right to a point where
Speaker 2: that they believe that they're having a conversation with an intelligence.
Speaker 2: And these are, after all, computer models. They're not intelligence.
Speaker 2: It's not yet anyway, It's not in the sense that
Speaker 2: you and I could be considered an intelligence. But at
Speaker 2: a certain level, yeah, that's right. At a certain level,
Speaker 2: it can act so close to what we take a
Speaker 2: sentience that it's easier to adopt the model of saying like, oh,
Speaker 2: let's assume it's kind of like a guy or a
Speaker 2: girl on the other end of the line, and I'm
Speaker 2: talking to them, because it's just it's more comprehensible. And
Speaker 2: I get that. So even when somebody says, hey, you're
Speaker 2: talking to this thing that's made up of electrical bits essentially,
Speaker 2: and you go, no, you don't understand it's alive, right,
Speaker 2: it's not because the person is is is kind of
Speaker 2: missing the point of technology. He's just here or she.
Speaker 2: They're experiencing something and their mind is making their best
Speaker 2: effort to fit their experience with with their emotions and
Speaker 2: likewise with mesmerism and kind of their understanding of the world.
Speaker 2: And again count Saint Germaine and the Alchemist. Everyone's trying
Speaker 2: to understand the world and present this map and they
Speaker 2: know it's a map. It's it's not perfect, but it's
Speaker 2: an effort to understand the world.
Speaker 1: M hmm. You know I should have brought this up
Speaker 1: a minute ago when we were having this conversation, and yeah,
Speaker 1: we could have we could dissect the words supernatural. That's
Speaker 1: that might not be the best word to use. I
Speaker 1: understand that. But when it comes to Paracelsis even I've
Speaker 1: read some of his work, well it's work attributed to
Speaker 1: Paracelsist that.
Speaker 2: Comes up right, Yes, yes.
Speaker 1: Basil Switchland, and know, judging about what I've read, he
Speaker 1: certainly believed in a a realm of entities, I'll just
Speaker 1: put it that way, like the Sylphs, dryads, all of that,
Speaker 1: and that you could work with him. I think he
Speaker 1: called them elementals, yes, And also in some of that work,
Speaker 1: maybe it was uh mart some of the Martinist stuff
Speaker 1: I read where they talked about the the Olympias or
Speaker 1: the Olympic spirits. That's what it is, these these governing spirits.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, So what do you think there was?
Speaker 1: Was germane Is? Did he think that you could work
Speaker 1: with these entities in your alchemy in a Paracelsian way?
Speaker 2: Could be he He doesn't specifically mention the classes of
Speaker 2: his spirits. Again, we're left with a very short written
Speaker 2: work that's a tribute to him. So it's it's interesting though,
Speaker 2: because the original not the original, but let's say the
Speaker 2: inspiration have Tamoron book, it looks like it's deriving that
Speaker 2: from something else, or heptamara On itself is derived from
Speaker 2: an older text that maybe dates back to like a
Speaker 2: thousand or so of common era. It's symmetric magic again,
Speaker 2: but who knows where where that's coming back from, like,
Speaker 2: but it goes through various transformation by the time it
Speaker 2: gets to Peter de Abano in sort of like sixteenth
Speaker 2: century or so. These spirits are called angels, but it
Speaker 2: was a common practice to call spirits angels because if
Speaker 2: you're not calling up all angels and you're a Christian,
Speaker 2: that it makes you look pretty subs right. It's there's
Speaker 2: something very strange and you should not be talking to
Speaker 2: anything other than angelic things. And people who who kind
Speaker 2: of examine these spirits and the various things that they
Speaker 2: are attribute to it is they certainly don't sound angelic
Speaker 2: in some ways. But here we are in Saint Germain's
Speaker 2: version of the text, that religious connotations are even more neuter.
Speaker 2: They're not removed entirely, but they're definitely not a particular
Speaker 2: religion center. There there are appeals made to God, as
Speaker 2: there are in all Grimore's. It's it's the Creator and
Speaker 2: that kind of a thing. But in some scriptural references,
Speaker 2: but they don't really reference a particular religion. And so
Speaker 2: you're calling upon some kind of spirits, whatever that means.
Speaker 2: And as I've mentioned in a few of these talks,
Speaker 2: there's a curious divergence from most Grimor's Grimore's the way
Speaker 2: that people who are familiar with them a little bit.
Speaker 2: They can be seen almost as a Laddin story. You
Speaker 2: call upon a genie, and if you just know the
Speaker 2: right words to say or the right justice to do,
Speaker 2: you can compel this other entity, this genie, into some
Speaker 2: kind of action. So you call upon your spirit and
Speaker 2: you say, well, I order you, or command you to
Speaker 2: do such and such a thing for me. Right, that's
Speaker 2: the standard faar of Gromors since Egyptian tax and Greek
Speaker 2: tax and Papyra and all stuff. But here it's different.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit different, but in an important way.
Speaker 2: You call upon the spirits in this ritual and where
Speaker 2: you purify yourself prior hand to So you call upon
Speaker 2: these spirits and then you say, I ask you you
Speaker 2: the spirits to judge me by the purity of my soul,
Speaker 2: and if you judge me worthy, I wish to be
Speaker 2: granted the gift of say, long life, that kind of
Speaker 2: a thing. So it's a different it's a power in version.
Speaker 2: You're not saying I command your spirit to grant me
Speaker 2: a long life. You're saying instead, like, I am here
Speaker 2: before you as a panel of judges, and if you
Speaker 2: judge me worthy, then grant me these gifts. And so
Speaker 2: you know, take some courage to kind of stand in
Speaker 2: front of an unknown jury and say, well, I'm willing
Speaker 2: to be put up and evaluated. And it also suggests
Speaker 2: that it's not free. Let's say you're asking for something
Speaker 2: and if you're judged worthy, okay, you might get it.
Speaker 2: But in exchange, you're going to be asked something in return.
Speaker 2: And I kind of leave that to the imagination interpretation
Speaker 2: as to what that might be. But it's it's not
Speaker 2: a free be Let's say it's a trade. It's a
Speaker 2: labor as well.
Speaker 1: I see, And is this, I mean, is this part
Speaker 1: of the book. Yeah, potentially, Yeah, So I would say
Speaker 1: I don't want to just label it. I don't want
Speaker 1: to just blanket label it. But it does sound like
Speaker 1: a grimoar in that sense.
Speaker 2: Definitely. Yeah, it has a groomoric aspect what they accept.
Speaker 2: And as I said that, you're you're not promised anything
Speaker 2: you It's not like you say these right words and
Speaker 2: you know, cheese falls from the sky kind of, I
Speaker 2: think you The only thing that promises you is that
Speaker 2: if you do this thing at a certain time, you're
Speaker 2: going to submit yourself to judgment. If you're comfortable with that,
Speaker 2: then if you go I see, it's it's actually it's
Speaker 2: it's a puzzle in itself. Why there's such an effort
Speaker 2: to decide to cipher this book though? Because eighteenth century, honestly,
Speaker 2: literally serrate is not that high. You could have probably
Speaker 2: written a book in French or Latin and very few
Speaker 2: people would have been able to read it anyways, let
Speaker 2: alone be able to do the thing. Then to encipher
Speaker 2: it with one level with plenty to kind of boggle
Speaker 2: the minds of I don't know pretty much everyone except
Speaker 2: for like one percent or something like that. And then
Speaker 2: to add extra layers of incipherment, it's just like, it's
Speaker 2: it's a real question asked to why why go through
Speaker 2: such an effort? And as I keep saying I don't
Speaker 2: think and I lay no claim whatsoever on saying that
Speaker 2: I've deciphered the whole book. There's in change changes colors
Speaker 2: in different parts of the book. There's three different colors
Speaker 2: that alternate in seemingly random patterns. There's symbols like little
Speaker 2: plants and whatever else that appear in different pages of
Speaker 2: the book that may be meaningful. And there's lots of stuff.
Speaker 2: There's subtext. Let's say, there may be other codes in
Speaker 2: the book. It's it's really interesting. I think there's something there.
Speaker 2: But why why go through such an effort when this
Speaker 2: book was you know, singular copy or three copies and whatnot.
Speaker 2: And what is the purpose of that level of not
Speaker 2: just secrecy, it goes beyond that, It goes to kind
Speaker 2: of a special level of Enthusiasmals.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, a lot of the alchemical texts I think
Speaker 3: are mains mysterious, where it's we don't understand all the
Speaker 3: diagrams in the symbolism or or the uh, you know, the.
Speaker 1: Recipes if you will. I think a lot of this
Speaker 1: stuff is still strouded in mystery. It's it's as if
Speaker 1: these guys I went to this similar mystery school and
Speaker 1: taught this secret language and they were in on it.
Speaker 2: They're in the know, right, and.
Speaker 1: It's like when they wrote these books, it's almost like
Speaker 1: they they were writing them for their fellow brothers and
Speaker 1: initial peers and the peers.
Speaker 2: Again, I highly recommend prinship is work. For example, I'll
Speaker 2: Keep You Tried in the Fire is an excellent book
Speaker 2: if you want to get some insight into these daconom
Speaker 2: and these these cold words that they used across the manuscripts.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately not very consistently. So that would be nice if
Speaker 2: there was a master list of symbols or words that
Speaker 2: they were consistent used, but it's just not the case.
Speaker 2: And the wonder, my goodness, the wonder if I did
Speaker 2: this at some point, like looking in the libraries in
Speaker 2: France and England at the end of eighteenth century, look
Speaker 2: at manuscripts, and they're beautiful, these al chemical works. The
Speaker 2: calligraphy is fantastic, and sometimes it's terrible chicken scratch, but
Speaker 2: some of it's fantastic, and the art is the symbolism
Speaker 2: is just it's captivating, right that, like it's riveting even
Speaker 2: today to look at it. And then something happens. End
Speaker 2: of eighteenth century people adopt the standard chemical alphabet, let's say,
Speaker 2: for depicting chemical reactions, and it takes off it just
Speaker 2: like people love it because it's so universal to write
Speaker 2: ch rather than something else that draw a dragon or
Speaker 2: a king being half dissolved in the tomb. And almost overnight,
Speaker 2: it's not quite that. It's like a couple of decades,
Speaker 2: it goes from being this mysterious work of art that
Speaker 2: you look upon without understanding sometimes and you're still fascinated
Speaker 2: to just a notebook filled with Latin letters and the
Speaker 2: standard chemical symbols that we have today. And in some
Speaker 2: ways it's fantastic because it's made so much more accessible
Speaker 2: and you can understand that to much greater degree. But
Speaker 2: on the other hand, this are the emotion of it
Speaker 2: is kind of gone and something is missing, like there's
Speaker 2: a there's an element that's nutrient from it in the
Speaker 2: transition to chemistry.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm thinking because I looked at your
Speaker 1: website and you've got a part there about the Vita
Speaker 1: prima Tria, right, which last time I checked when I
Speaker 1: was like reading up on the alchemists and such. I
Speaker 1: think Paracels has got the Vita prima from Jibber.
Speaker 2: Perhaps most likely yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And he himself, Paracels has added salt as the third hone.
Speaker 2: It right, it's it is more clearly linked to pair
Speaker 2: Celsius rather than the Arabic precursors. So his his was
Speaker 2: this idea of the three well, three things that you
Speaker 2: can decompose almost anything into. Yeah mm hm.
Speaker 1: So it's vita prematrea sell for mercury salt, right.
Speaker 2: That's right. Yeah, it's kind of like if I remember
Speaker 2: reading somebody's rather good explanation about this. If you take
Speaker 2: any let's say, biological thing, I'll leave, and if you
Speaker 2: expose it to flame, the first thing that escapes you
Speaker 2: could call it the the alcohol spirit of the matter
Speaker 2: you have. That's one that's volatile, right, And that's the mercury.
Speaker 2: And then you continue to heat it, and you extract
Speaker 2: the oil, right, this essential oil of a plant, if
Speaker 2: you will. And then finally, when you continue to heat
Speaker 2: it and ultimately reduce it to ashes, this indestructible thing
Speaker 2: that you can keep burning it, but the ashes are
Speaker 2: still there, you know. That's the salt, right, Like, it's
Speaker 2: the thing that will stay behind no matter what. And
Speaker 2: so yeah, it's a again that's a way of dividing
Speaker 2: the world in some ways and trying to make sense
Speaker 2: of it. And yeah, it doesn't make its appearance.
Speaker 1: So I've got this book. It talks a lot about alchemy.
Speaker 1: It's called The Philosopher's Stone, Alchemy and the Secret Research
Speaker 1: for Exotic Matter. It's a Joseph P. Farrell book, and
Speaker 1: he presents an interesting timeline and here for where he
Speaker 1: thinks that the or he suggests that the the alchemy
Speaker 1: and the knowledge of the mysteries kind of go underground
Speaker 1: for a while. It's like they disappear for a while.
Speaker 1: And I think it was something like three hundred BC
Speaker 1: two or sorry, three hundred and eighty to around fifteen
Speaker 1: hundred is where he sees almost like a dark age
Speaker 1: is for this stuff, and it kind of does kind
Speaker 1: of coeside with the Dark Ages. I just I bring
Speaker 1: it up because I think it's interesting because right in
Speaker 1: the middle of that is around eight hundred AD. That's
Speaker 1: ta Beer's time. So that suggests to me that this
Speaker 1: knowledge maybe it went underground in Europe, but it didn't
Speaker 1: go underground in Arabia or Turkey or Stanbul. So it's
Speaker 1: like I just find that fascinating that there was We
Speaker 1: think of if history as if the Dark Ages encompassed
Speaker 1: the whole of Earth. But I think that this stuff
Speaker 1: was being practiced all along in the Middle East. What
Speaker 1: do you think about that?
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, there's a kind of rather continuous tradition of it.
Speaker 2: It's unclear how far we can stretch it into the
Speaker 2: past Egyptians or whatever, but we know that's ay. Around
Speaker 2: ancient green you have a lot of concentrated thought, but philosophy,
Speaker 2: philosophy being not just kind of how to live your life,
Speaker 2: but really an understanding of the world around you, kind
Speaker 2: of a thing and making sense of everything from mathematics
Speaker 2: to astronomy to chemistry and all of that. And then
Speaker 2: you have the next great empire, Byzantine Empire, right, that's
Speaker 2: kind of rises and it has its heyday, and eventually,
Speaker 2: through war and conquest it's declines, but not before its
Speaker 2: library is being rather well plundered by the Arabic world,
Speaker 2: and the Arabic tradition comes to life not just in
Speaker 2: acquiring this knowledge, but innovating on it and improving on it.
Speaker 2: So it's very much not the Dark Ages in those lands.
Speaker 2: It's where you have the Arabic people taking these Byzantine manuscripts,
Speaker 2: taking these Greek manuscripts, perhaps Egyptian work, and really working
Speaker 2: with running with it. And yeah, as you say, you know,
Speaker 2: you have your chemistry development, you have various other things,
Speaker 2: mathematics being highly advanced at that time, and Europe simply
Speaker 2: does not have those manuscripts. It is unaware of them.
Speaker 2: It's not so much that it's hidden, but it's like
Speaker 2: kind of not really known until these interactions, these crusades,
Speaker 2: these hopefully more friendly interactions as well, trade and whatnot
Speaker 2: again that bring this knowledge back. And imagine your you're
Speaker 2: some kind of among trading with these foreign allies or
Speaker 2: sometimes enemies, and you have to be knowledgeable, will across
Speaker 2: multiple languages and try to make sense of this tradition
Speaker 2: that's coming. It's not so much it's distorted by it.
Speaker 2: It maybe is difficult to recognize. It's not difficult to
Speaker 2: recognize even as Greek because it comes from Arabic interpretations.
Speaker 2: You have this famous collection of magic called text called
Speaker 2: Picka Tricks right around a thousand of Common era, and
Speaker 2: it's Arabic in nature, but it's sorry, it's Arabic in composition,
Speaker 2: but it's not Arabic in nature itself. It's collection of
Speaker 2: all sorts of knowledge from what was valuable at that
Speaker 2: time in Arabic lands, and Pickatrix ultimately gets translated into
Speaker 2: Latin and makes its way into Europe that way, and
Speaker 2: it has a massive influence, even though most people don't
Speaker 2: know much about it, because it's just such an enormous
Speaker 2: collection of knowledge and slowly trickles back into Europe. And
Speaker 2: you know Alchemia again right there. The art of the
Speaker 2: Egypt or the art of kind of that that land
Speaker 2: Kim Egypt is is called that way, not because it
Speaker 2: originated in Egypt, but because well, in Egypt it was
Speaker 2: rather developed at that time and in the time of
Speaker 2: like when when people were not really put into too
Speaker 2: many other things together. You know that they've had the
Speaker 2: ability to melt and refine metals and do all sorts
Speaker 2: of things that we we still find fascinating, the class
Speaker 2: and all these other things.
Speaker 1: Land of Kim Mm hmm, yeah, I would. I would
Speaker 1: argue that a lot of these manuscripts from Egypt and
Speaker 1: the greater Middle East made their way into Egypt, or
Speaker 1: that maybe you could say, back into Europe during the rent,
Speaker 1: during the Renaissance, during the fall of the Byzantine Empire,
Speaker 1: where all these people moved out of out of I
Speaker 1: don't remember exactly the struggle, but I think Constantinople was
Speaker 1: finally conquered, and a lot of those people left Constantinople
Speaker 1: and went up into Europe, and with them they brought
Speaker 1: art and the knowledge of these the alchemical knowledge and
Speaker 1: the knowledge of the mysteries. I see it going back
Speaker 1: in New Europe right there, right then and there at
Speaker 1: that point in time. But you know that that's I
Speaker 1: guess that's neither here nor there. It's just you got
Speaker 1: me thinking about it. But what so the book is
Speaker 1: a upside down or how do you call it an
Speaker 1: upside down triangle?
Speaker 2: I just called a triangular book.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, I got you, I got you, triangular book.
Speaker 1: I was just I was curious if it was meant
Speaker 1: to be a triangle flipped upside down for any particular reason.
Speaker 2: But well, I mean, it's written on both sides, so
Speaker 2: there's one that's flipped up and the one that's flipped down,
Speaker 2: so you can take your pick.
Speaker 1: I see, I see. And what about the dragon is
Speaker 1: with the dragon has a face on its tail, what's
Speaker 1: the symbology there.
Speaker 2: It's an interesting dragon too if you look at it,
Speaker 2: because if people know what a dragon looks like ever since,
Speaker 2: they're like tiny kids, right, And the European dragon sure
Speaker 2: don't look like that, and the traditional Chinese or Japanese
Speaker 2: dragon also doesn't look like that. It's an interesting figure
Speaker 2: because in say, the Chinese mythology, dragons are a big deal.
Speaker 2: They are just these water spirits. They look more like serpents.
Speaker 2: There are these very flowy, snakelike creatures. They occasionally have
Speaker 2: tiny low arms or legs or something like that, but
Speaker 2: they are these serpentine things, sometimes in the water, sometimes
Speaker 2: in the air. Sometimes they have wings, but it's extraordinary rare.
Speaker 2: The wing a dragon is supposed to be the oldest
Speaker 2: of all kinds of dragons and Chinese mythology it's the
Speaker 2: one that attained to immortality. All dragons live for a
Speaker 2: long time, only winged dragons live forever. And so it's
Speaker 2: a particular classification that seems to stem from easier, let's say,
Speaker 2: and European tradition of dragons is more of well, these vibrants,
Speaker 2: as we call them, like these creatures with big wings
Speaker 2: that breathe fire, all sorts of a lot of things
Speaker 2: like that. Dragon myths in general seemed to come from
Speaker 2: Egypt as far as I could tell, like a trace
Speaker 2: it down. That's perhaps even has to do with some
Speaker 2: kind of stories of great storms that would fling up
Speaker 2: serpents in the sky and I would kind of fly
Speaker 2: around and land and you terrifying you. But more to
Speaker 2: the point, this book, it starts without cover of a
Speaker 2: winged dragon, and I think after staring at it for
Speaker 2: many a year, it kind of occurred to me, and
Speaker 2: it's just a perfect symbol for the work that's in there,
Speaker 2: because what is a dragon? Right from anybody who's seen
Speaker 2: Lord of the Rings or anything like that, or read
Speaker 2: the book or anything of a similar sort, knows that
Speaker 2: dragon's hoard treasure, right, there's always an association between a
Speaker 2: dragon being a guardian of wealth, specifically of wealth. So God,
Speaker 2: without overthinking it, it's a creature that guards wealth, right,
Speaker 2: that's one two dragon lives for a very long time.
Speaker 2: There's kind of no real disputing that. It's it's not
Speaker 2: a kind of a short lived creature that kind of
Speaker 2: comes and goes. No, this is a thing that's been
Speaker 2: around for a lot longer than some of the other
Speaker 2: creatures around that, right, And it also connects to something
Speaker 2: that is very ancient. There's myths of dragons going back
Speaker 2: to why as far as you can trace in humanity
Speaker 2: these ancient cults of serpent worship and kind of these
Speaker 2: dragon worships. So it in one symbol manages to combine
Speaker 2: all those three goals of the book. It has the longevity,
Speaker 2: it has minerals of value to humanity, gold and other
Speaker 2: things that a dragon note, horde, and it has this
Speaker 2: antidiluvian kind of lineage. It's it's very ancient, it's something
Speaker 2: from before the flood, it's something from beyond our scope
Speaker 2: of understanding. I think that's why it's there. Yeah. Also,
Speaker 2: as an interesting side, noted, in ancient Japan, a wing
Speaker 2: a dragon symbol was used as a representation of the emperor.
Speaker 2: So if you in the modern days, say us, you
Speaker 2: write above top secret or top secret on a document
Speaker 2: kind of I think to indicate that's important. In ancient
Speaker 2: Japan you would put a picture of a wing and dragon,
Speaker 2: meaning that this is the property and concerns the affairs
Speaker 2: of the emperor. So it's like the highest rank if
Speaker 2: you will, of something.
Speaker 1: It's a top secret you.
Speaker 2: Could say so, and it's yeah, it is for the
Speaker 2: affairs of a very small group of people, let's.
Speaker 1: Say, sure and very important. Wow, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: Do you think that he was traveled? Do you think
Speaker 1: he traveled to that area of the world, Japan, in China?
Speaker 1: And maybe do you think he spoke the languages there?
Speaker 2: I can't say about the languages, but it seems like
Speaker 2: he traveled, and that's precisely where he was getting some
Speaker 2: of these ideas from. And maybe even again some of
Speaker 2: the recipes, some of the inspirations and so on and
Speaker 2: so forth, that's coming exactly from there.
Speaker 1: Wow, yeah, yeah, And you know, talking about top secret,
Speaker 1: I know I brought that up. Maybe it's not the
Speaker 1: best phrase, but I do want to ask, you know,
Speaker 1: where there. I'm sure it's been alleged that he was
Speaker 1: an intelligence agent. Most of the people who live these
Speaker 1: traveling lives involved with the mysteries, you know, Crowley or Bovatsky,
Speaker 1: they either where they were they were spies, or they
Speaker 1: get accused of being spised. I wonder if he has
Speaker 1: any of those allegations. I'm sure he does.
Speaker 2: Yeah, very much. Pretty much anywhere you goes like you said,
Speaker 2: he speaks a lot of languages, He travels in high circles,
Speaker 2: that auto race cycles on anybody's kind of secret service affairs. Right,
Speaker 2: Why is this guy suddenly so close to our king,
Speaker 2: our prince or queen and so on? Right? And who
Speaker 2: is he and all that stuff? And they're extremely frustrated
Speaker 2: because he came highly recommended. He had back in the day,
Speaker 2: letters of recommendation were a big thing, and he certainly
Speaker 2: had lots of them, and yet nobody could figure out
Speaker 2: who he was, what is his lineage? It was a
Speaker 2: much more important question at the time. Right today we
Speaker 2: can say, well, we're just chatting and you know, it's
Speaker 2: we can have a conversation about things. But back then
Speaker 2: it would be a lot more important to know from
Speaker 2: where did you come from? Right? Even even his name
Speaker 2: is it's kind of suggestive of some of that of
Speaker 2: Saint Germaine. Right, it's not you know, Bob James, kind
Speaker 2: of I think, but Bob of such and such a town.
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's provenance, it's relation. And he's kind
Speaker 2: of saying, well, I'm making mine up, like I am
Speaker 2: purposefully fabricating mine and not can to frustrate a lot
Speaker 2: of people.
Speaker 1: What do you make of the speaking of lineage, what
Speaker 1: do you make about Is it Prince Charles who it's
Speaker 1: said talk to him on his deathbed, and it's said
Speaker 1: that Saint Germain told Prince Charles that he was like
Speaker 1: a banished prince of Romania.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah, Hungary actually the Rakotzi Empire, Hungary.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you make of that?
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, I think it's probably exactly spot on. You know.
Speaker 2: It's so Hungary was being taken apart, there was a
Speaker 2: lot of conflict and things like that. They had to
Speaker 2: the royal family kind of had to disband, so to speak.
Speaker 2: But I'm certain that he was of some noble lineage,
Speaker 2: because you don't just get an education with mediciese and
Speaker 2: other things like that for nothing. Somebody had to know somebody.
Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't have to be necessarily dramatic. He
Speaker 2: could be an illegitimate son. That probably happened a lot
Speaker 2: of the time. So it's kind of like, well, son,
Speaker 2: we can't really give you a title, but you know,
Speaker 2: still like you, so I'm going to just give you
Speaker 2: a bunch of money and encourage you to go study
Speaker 2: under these people and go for it, so that that
Speaker 2: could have been a thing. Who knows, it's it's a
Speaker 2: bit lost in the past. But yeah, I think his
Speaker 2: his admission or his claim anyways at that point in
Speaker 2: his life that he was of that lineage. Yeah, seems
Speaker 2: very believable.
Speaker 1: Anyways, Yeah, was that Habsburg by any chance?
Speaker 2: Certain? You mean the Prince No, it was Prince Charles
Speaker 2: of Hesse Castle at northern German States at that time,
Speaker 2: not Habsburg.
Speaker 1: Was I'm talking about the Rakowsky Rakkatzi Rakotzi.
Speaker 2: No, No, they were not the Habsburg. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: the Austra Hungarian Empire was eventually kind of ruled that, say,
Speaker 2: but Habsburgs. But yeah, it's he himself was not the Habsburg.
Speaker 1: Okay, very interesting. Yeah, And you know another thing when
Speaker 1: it comes to these these royals, I mean we've we've
Speaker 1: established that he was. He found it easy to get
Speaker 1: into the royal circles. I mean, it would make sense
Speaker 1: that he really was royal. You know, he didn't seem
Speaker 1: like he had to try to get in the presence
Speaker 1: of other royals anywhere he went. I was going to
Speaker 1: ask about Napoleon the Third as well. With it said
Speaker 1: he set up an intelligence gathering operation to look into
Speaker 1: count Saint Germain.
Speaker 2: And Napoleon Bonaparte was obsessed with Saint Germaine for some reason. Yeah,
Speaker 2: he really was. Yeah, apparently they collected quite an archive
Speaker 2: on him as well, whatever it was, and during World
Speaker 2: War Two that archive burned down, at least according to
Speaker 2: the sources that that was able to trace down. Lord.
Speaker 2: It's a good story anyways, And maybe somebody has his
Speaker 2: diamond slippers in their private collection.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I do definitely wonder what
Speaker 1: happened to the to the diamonds.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 1: Was what about it was said him he carried around
Speaker 1: a coffin full of diamonds?
Speaker 2: Is that I did not hear a coffin? That seems
Speaker 2: like an exaggeration, But he certainly had lots of diamonds.
Speaker 2: And that's there's a mind that kind of mystery there too.
Speaker 2: Because so whether like we didn't discuss the most obvious
Speaker 2: legend I suppose yet, whether he died or whether he
Speaker 2: died later or what have you, right, because there is
Speaker 2: his official timeline, if you will, about when he was
Speaker 2: born and when he died kind of a thing. And
Speaker 2: so we have this time range of seventeen twelve to
Speaker 2: seventeen eighty four. But his death is kind of curious.
Speaker 2: So he dies in Germany in seventeen eighty four. Prince
Speaker 2: Charles or Carl is away at that time, so I
Speaker 2: guess no one really witnesses his death, but his rooms
Speaker 2: are sealed until the return of the Prince. Prince returns
Speaker 2: about two months later, he unseals the rooms, goes in,
Speaker 2: takes up one packet of written works, whatever that was,
Speaker 2: it's not specified, and leaves. The list of things that
Speaker 2: are left behind in that room is cataloged rather exactly,
Speaker 2: and it's just so utterly boring and plain. The couple
Speaker 2: of stockings, shaving razor, some regular one set of clothing.
Speaker 2: That's it. There's nothing else, nothing, No diamonds, no gold,
Speaker 2: no chemical equipment, no books. Nothing. Right, Okay, well, maybe
Speaker 2: he really like he went all out on this simplicity thing. Maybe,
Speaker 2: But so then he's buried and then the German, little
Speaker 2: German town there by the sea, and his grave is
Speaker 2: marked very simply, and for some fortunate or unfortunate reason,
Speaker 2: there's this big storm and apparently the sea floods into
Speaker 2: the graveyard and washes away the graves, so nobody knows
Speaker 2: where he's buried, so there's no grave anymore either. Ah. Right,
Speaker 2: So it's kind of like it's it's conveniently wrapped up.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what makes for a good story
Speaker 2: as well. Right, I mean could have happened, sure, I mean,
Speaker 2: storm's happened, but there's no place that you can go
Speaker 2: and say there there is his purpotent grave, like, no,
Speaker 2: there's nothing like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this, this man's legacy makes for a
Speaker 1: great story. That's he looked no further than the internet
Speaker 1: for that one. I mean, that's why I was excited
Speaker 1: to talk to you, because you've you've put in the
Speaker 1: work and you've started all this and you've down to
Speaker 1: your knowledge of the details of the surviving manuscript. I
Speaker 1: can tell you've put in a lot of work, and
Speaker 1: it's great to be able to talk to somebody like
Speaker 1: you for this. For the historical layer of this that
Speaker 1: that I see getting, it's skewed. It's very skewed. Like
Speaker 1: there are a lot of podcasts these days that some
Speaker 1: of these shows are really big and they pick a
Speaker 1: topic that they don't know anything about, but they pick
Speaker 1: a topic and they go and they spend a couple
Speaker 1: of days researching the topic and then they present the information.
Speaker 1: I don't see anything wrong with that until you start
Speaker 1: saying what's what and trying to tell people exactly what happened.
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of shows out there right now
Speaker 1: who are trying to tell to make definitive statements on
Speaker 1: count Saint Germain. And so you get this this like,
Speaker 1: I've got a whole list of things that I've heard
Speaker 1: said about him, which I don't think I'm going to
Speaker 1: subject you to this list, right, But for instance, it's
Speaker 1: like he had an accent and in some people say
Speaker 1: he definitely did not have an accent.
Speaker 2: Had an accent in every language, is what I've heard, right,
Speaker 2: It's like speaks well yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah. I
Speaker 2: mean here's the thing, like I can kind of speak
Speaker 2: to this a little bit, and this research, right, it's
Speaker 2: if you go to try to find this online, what
Speaker 2: we're talking about, you won't find most of it online.
Speaker 2: That's and that's not because I have some great deal
Speaker 2: of esoteric knowledge from my ancestors. I got a little bit,
Speaker 2: but not not very much. But these are in books,
Speaker 2: in manuscripts and libraries. These have not been digitized. And
Speaker 2: the only reason why I know is because I went
Speaker 2: to these places and then I knocked on the doors,
Speaker 2: talked to people, read the books. And that's a little
Speaker 2: bit more than research, as you say, online, because this
Speaker 2: is a weird thing today, Like you definitely can get
Speaker 2: a lot of knowledge, but if it's not online, it's
Speaker 2: as if it doesn't exist. Or what if it's in German.
Speaker 2: The diaries of Prince of carl Hess, they're not in English,
Speaker 2: you have to read German. What about the memoirs of
Speaker 2: the attended to Modern the Pompadour, they're in French. You
Speaker 2: have to know French, right, all of these things. And
Speaker 2: I've read a whole bunch of books that have been
Speaker 2: printed in say in like nineteenth century, in those languages,
Speaker 2: because yeah, they overlap. But occasionally you just get this
Speaker 2: little sliver of a story or a little side point
Speaker 2: that nobody mentions afterwards. It's not a secret, it's just
Speaker 2: that it wasn't passed on and it's not online. So
Speaker 2: it's like it's difficult to find those stories without doing
Speaker 2: the leg work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I told you before we started, I
Speaker 1: have always looked from afar on this subject. I've always
Speaker 1: I've always had it in my mind that I wanted
Speaker 1: to do an account Saint Germaine episode, and I've just
Speaker 1: been waiting, been waiting for the right person to come along,
Speaker 1: for me to talk to somebody who I can say,
Speaker 1: you know, call an expert with confidence, someone who's put
Speaker 1: in the research. So I appreciate you very much in
Speaker 1: that regard, but I waited. I waited because I see
Speaker 1: a lot of nonsense about him out there. Some of
Speaker 1: it you could tell is nonsense, some of it you
Speaker 1: can't tell. And then there's all these conflicting stories about
Speaker 1: you know, just even like I said before, down to
Speaker 1: the accent. But yeah, I heard, I heard there's a
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say any names here, but there's
Speaker 1: a pretty big podcaster who's been on Joe Rogan who
Speaker 1: insists that Saint Germaine had or had, yeah, had had
Speaker 1: an accent. So there's there's a lot of that out there, right,
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's hard to know, it's hard to know
Speaker 1: who to believe. I guess if you new to the.
Speaker 2: Subject, absolutely, it's it's kind of like almost like you know,
Speaker 2: mentioned something like the accent is it's a curious point
Speaker 2: you could make some deductions from that or not. But
Speaker 2: it's the more outlanders stories. You know, there's like this
Speaker 2: whole he was a vampire and he lived in New
Speaker 2: Orleans for a while and things like that. It's like
Speaker 2: it's it's cool. It's like it's a fun story, like
Speaker 2: it makes for good fiction. Or there was a French
Speaker 2: dude for a while that claimed to be the reincarnation
Speaker 2: of Saint Germaine. I'm like, well, you know, dude probably
Speaker 2: just needs to get his own life and try to
Speaker 2: be interesting on his own terms. So I like the
Speaker 2: stories too, by the way, Like I'm not against them,
Speaker 2: and I am definitely not claiming to know everything about
Speaker 2: this person or saying this is my way. I just
Speaker 2: think that there's enough interesting stuff in these actual accounts
Speaker 2: that you can dig up and go, well that that's
Speaker 2: kind of curious. I wonder why that is or why
Speaker 2: is this thing like that? And it still leaves these
Speaker 2: massive gaps, like you could fit whatever you want, whatever
Speaker 2: interpretation you want. Maybe he's a wonder man, Maybe here's
Speaker 2: a alive, maybe he spoke of spirits, or maybe he's
Speaker 2: a wizard or what have you, right, or maybe he
Speaker 2: was just a chemist and made for good storytelling or
Speaker 2: something like that.
Speaker 1: M yeah, well, this has been great today. You've you've
Speaker 1: brought forth a lot of information, a lot of valuable information.
Speaker 1: Thank you for your time. Is there anything that you
Speaker 1: want to finish on, any any kind of a wrap
Speaker 1: up you might want to finish on.
Speaker 2: Sure, I'll mention something that probably becomes somewhat apparent in
Speaker 2: discussing this character Countessing, I mean, and we can't. We
Speaker 2: shouldn't get too stuck in this historicity and the context
Speaker 2: of eighteenth century we look at with distortion of or
Speaker 2: current times. What I'm trying to get across in my
Speaker 2: discussions of my presentation of this person is that he was,
Speaker 2: for lack of a better term, a research scientist. He
Speaker 2: tried to lean into things that were under explored and
Speaker 2: to explore them. So exploring his stuff is interesting enough.
Speaker 2: But if you really want to kind of take on
Speaker 2: this thing as your own, I'd say it's good not
Speaker 2: to get stuck in the mindset of eighteenth century, but
Speaker 2: try to think, well, now you're in twenty twenty six,
Speaker 2: what is the cutting edge stuff today? So meaning that
Speaker 2: if Saint Germaine was alive today, what would he be
Speaker 2: into and I can tell you he would not be
Speaker 2: into alchemy and stuff like that at this time. He'd
Speaker 2: be more into like I said again, like quantum physics
Speaker 2: or genetic you know, research and biochemistry, research and AI
Speaker 2: and everything else. Right, because that's the cutting of humanity
Speaker 2: these days, or whatever you interpret as the cutting the
Speaker 2: edge of our knowledge today. It doesn't have to be
Speaker 2: all scientific, but it definitely would be leaning towards something
Speaker 2: that's that's beyond us and beyond our understanding. It wouldn't
Speaker 2: be just looking back and saying, well, what did the
Speaker 2: old ones or the ancient ones do? So that's kind
Speaker 2: of why I want to leave off of like it's
Speaker 2: it's cool to do archaeology and dig up stuff, but
Speaker 2: if you want to take on the mantles or speak
Speaker 2: this legacy of sinj, I mean, you got to live
Speaker 2: in your own time and look forward and be like, yeah,
Speaker 2: what's something that I can poke into and be something
Speaker 2: of that? Because he was interesting for this time because
Speaker 2: he was forward facing, not because he was trying to
Speaker 2: be somebody from fourteenth century. That's what I would say.
Speaker 1: Maybe life extension as well, absolutely, yeah, that's maybe that's
Speaker 1: always been pursued, but it's certainly being pursued now. A
Speaker 1: lot of people believe that that's technology that we have,
Speaker 1: or in the technology that is coming our way, will
Speaker 1: be able to provide life extension. That reminds me a
Speaker 1: lot of this conversation we had today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and again to kind of to lean it
Speaker 2: a little bit into the modern thought. You know, whatever
Speaker 2: your perspective on AI is, it's something of a new being,
Speaker 2: maybe not fully sentient as we call it. But the
Speaker 2: problem with humans is that we die. We die within
Speaker 2: a century, which means that majority of our knowledge, experiential
Speaker 2: knowledge is lost every roughly one hundred years. We're starting
Speaker 2: to get to a point where we're able to create
Speaker 2: an intelligence that survives that, and I think that's kind
Speaker 2: of fascinating because, you know, assuming that we can keep
Speaker 2: the machine going through one way or another, you'd have
Speaker 2: a collection of knowledge that's gained and built and that's
Speaker 2: vives generations and centuries, and that's pretty fascinating. Sorry, kind
Speaker 2: of we'll see where that goes, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, Well that's a that's a great
Speaker 1: wrap up. I appreciate your time today. I want to
Speaker 1: make sure to give you the opportunity to tell people
Speaker 1: where they can find your your work. I mean I
Speaker 1: think you you perhaps do not want to be found,
Speaker 1: right because nope.
Speaker 2: No, particularly I've made a lot of effort to kind
Speaker 2: of be away from people I love.
Speaker 1: But yeah, tell them where they can find what you
Speaker 1: do want to be found.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that Triangular Book dot Com is probably the
Speaker 2: most related thing to to the subject. And yeah, I
Speaker 2: do get a lot of requests for a republication of
Speaker 2: the book, something that I'm starting to work on. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it's you know, the previous publication was mentionally limited, and
Speaker 2: next time we get around to publishing it will be
Speaker 2: hopefully a lot more accessible. Maybe it'll be digital and
Speaker 2: whatever else. So yeah, but anyways, that's there. My email
Speaker 2: is there on that page as well. If you want
Speaker 2: to reach out and have a conversation, I'm open for that.
Speaker 1: Okay, great, Yeah, for people listening, that's Triangularbook dot Com.
Speaker 1: I want to make sure that I have that said
Speaker 1: on the audio version here, because the show is occasionally
Speaker 1: broadcasted elsewhere and they don't always put the links right,
Speaker 1: so it's I just want to make sure you will
Speaker 1: to hear that it's Triangular Book dot com where you
Speaker 1: can go and you can find Nicholas email and get
Speaker 1: in touch if you'd like. So yeah, anything else today, thank.
Speaker 2: You, Oh, you're very welcome. Thanks for the opportunity to discuss.
Speaker 2: It's an ancient subject and yes, yeah, always a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, thank you sir, and as always, break the mold,
Speaker 1: conquer the realm, and thanks for listening.