WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.799 How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? 2 00:00:04.440 --> 00:00:04.799 Easy? 3 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.560 Become a patron for just five dollars a month. You 4 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:11.320 get access to a private RSS feed where all the 5 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.560 shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month, we'll get 6 00:00:14.599 --> 00:00:18.440 you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign 7 00:00:18.519 --> 00:00:34.399 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, 8 00:00:34.479 --> 00:00:37.039 welcome back to dot net rocks. I'm Carl Franklin and 9 00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:40.399 Averchard Campbell. We're here again for your listening pleasure and 10 00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:43.159 you're geeking out pleasure and all of the things that 11 00:00:43.200 --> 00:00:45.759 come with dot NetRocks. It's not just about dot net 12 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:48.679 as you know. Geez, We've been doing this since two 13 00:00:48.759 --> 00:00:50.399 thousand and two, Richard, can you believe it? 14 00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:51.000 Yeah? 15 00:00:51.039 --> 00:00:53.840 Well, wow, be clear. I was a guest in two 16 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:56.280 thousand and four. I only came on routinely two thousand 17 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:58.079 and vivees, Oh, come on, man, you know I'm the 18 00:00:58.119 --> 00:01:02.759 new guy, the new guy. Yeah. 19 00:01:02.880 --> 00:01:06.719 It is kind of funny when people ask us, you know, hey, 20 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:08.879 do you have ever heard of podcasts? I'm like, no, 21 00:01:09.239 --> 00:01:11.959 never heard of never heard of them. And then when 22 00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:17.319 I actually tell them, you know, like what what? Okay, 23 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:20.120 let's get into better no framework. 24 00:01:28.079 --> 00:01:29.680 All right, man, what do you go? You know what, 25 00:01:30.040 --> 00:01:30.359 this is. 26 00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:34.000 The first time I've actually looked at Microsoft power toys. 27 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.359 Oh really, yeah, I just I've done shows over on 28 00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:39.680 run as on them. Well yeah, I think we've even 29 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:42.239 done them on Rock. Yeah, but I mean, I'm just 30 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:45.319 I'm not one to do that, right but right. However, 31 00:01:45.519 --> 00:01:48.959 I did notice that a lot of Mark Rosenovic's tools 32 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:54.239 have made their way into power tools, such as zoom It, 33 00:01:54.799 --> 00:01:58.040 you know, And so I took a look and there's 34 00:01:58.079 --> 00:02:00.920 one thing in there that just lows me away. Then 35 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:04.480 I'm going to start using right away. It's advanced paced. 36 00:02:04.799 --> 00:02:06.079 Oh so, there's a tool that. 37 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:08.719 Enables you to paste the content from your clipboard into 38 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:13.039 any format needed. It can paste as plain text, mark 39 00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:17.280 down Jason, a text file, an HTML file, or a 40 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:21.599 PNG file directly within the user experience, or with a 41 00:02:21.639 --> 00:02:25.879 direct keystroke invoke and get this. It can also extract 42 00:02:25.919 --> 00:02:29.159 and paste the text directly from an image in your clipboard, 43 00:02:29.360 --> 00:02:33.479 or transcode audio or video from your clipboard into an 44 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:35.280 MP three or MP four file. 45 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:40.039 What. Yeah, that's impressive. When did this happen? That's crazy? 46 00:02:40.360 --> 00:02:41.719 This is some good stuff. 47 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:43.960 Yeah, there's a lot. I mean, there's so many zoom 48 00:02:44.000 --> 00:02:47.159 it's an obvious win. Yeah. The mouse utilities, you know, 49 00:02:47.199 --> 00:02:48.879 I have a lot of screens. Yeah, and they're not 50 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:51.719 all symmetrical, so being able to turn on where the 51 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:52.360 hell's the mouse? 52 00:02:53.240 --> 00:02:54.199 You have it light up? 53 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:56.879 It's I know, I have three screens, and every time 54 00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:59.120 Kelly and I play like a game or something, she's 55 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:01.759 like she's ticking the mouse and then she's like rolling 56 00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:04.319 it around on the desktop to find out where it is. 57 00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.800 Where is the mouse? Where's the mouse? Look out? 58 00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:10.840 The mouse finders great, The imageer sizer is amazing, Like 59 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:13.199 just a great tool. There's so many good tools in this. 60 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:15.080 If you're not using power toys, you're missing out. 61 00:03:15.159 --> 00:03:18.280 Oh I totally have been. So I am definitely installed. 62 00:03:18.319 --> 00:03:20.599 I've already downloaded. I didn't install it before the show, 63 00:03:20.639 --> 00:03:24.120 but definitely installing it. This is good, good, good, good. 64 00:03:24.240 --> 00:03:24.560 Yes. 65 00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:27.400 Yeah, So Richard, before we do the comment, let's talk 66 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:28.439 about nineteen forty two. 67 00:03:28.639 --> 00:03:30.280 Okay, what do you want to talk about. 68 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:34.960 Well, many significant events took place in nineteen forty two, 69 00:03:34.960 --> 00:03:38.560 many many, including the Battle of Los Angeles, the Second 70 00:03:38.639 --> 00:03:42.919 Battle of l La Main, and the Battle of midway 71 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:46.039 right where the US Navy defeated the Japanese Navy, which 72 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:47.199 was a turning point. 73 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:49.319 Of the war. Yeah, they never recovered. 74 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:52.280 Right, And while in Germany, Nazi officials met to plan 75 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:56.919 the quote unquote Final Solution of God and Ann Frank's 76 00:03:56.919 --> 00:04:00.800 family went into hiding. Also teen forty two, and this 77 00:04:00.840 --> 00:04:02.199 is probably what you were going to talk about. The 78 00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:05.800 Manhattan Project needed to create a chain reaction, a crucial 79 00:04:05.840 --> 00:04:08.680 step toward proving that it would be possible to make 80 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:13.159 an atomic bomb. And these scientists achieved this sustained nuclear reaction, 81 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.800 the first created by humans, on December two, nineteen forty two, 82 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:20.160 in a squash court under the stands of the. 83 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:21.480 Stag under the squash court. 84 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:24.639 Yeah, yeah, under the stands the stag field at the 85 00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:25.879 University of Chicago. 86 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:27.959 Now that's America. Now listen. 87 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.240 Pile one was not a lot of power, right, It 88 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:33.040 was just a little bit, but it was Remember this 89 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:36.120 was all theoretical. Is it actually possible to have a 90 00:04:36.240 --> 00:04:37.959 chain reaction to heat up? 91 00:04:38.279 --> 00:04:38.560 Right? 92 00:04:38.639 --> 00:04:42.279 And so literally there's they learned that they had to 93 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:44.439 use graphite, and it had to be very pure graph 94 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:48.079 light or it would burn blocks of graphite, blocks of 95 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:54.360 aluminum of uranium oxide blocks of metallic uranium, and they 96 00:04:54.360 --> 00:04:58.720 would literally slide them in these tubes closer together, further apart, 97 00:04:58.759 --> 00:05:01.040 and so forth. So they got to they were pursuing 98 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:04.199 this thing called K, the rate of reaction. They were 99 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:06.560 trying to get a K above one. So there was 100 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:08.279 an increasing chain reaction. 101 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:08.920 But not a lot above one. 102 00:05:09.920 --> 00:05:12.399 But it just sort of proved the point that criticality 103 00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:15.199 was a real thing. You know, they the physicists had 104 00:05:15.240 --> 00:05:17.439 figured this out. And this is weird, right, And most 105 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:20.759 of the time we have empirical data, like we know, 106 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.199 this natural thing does this thing, and then we use 107 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:25.399 science to figure out why it does it. Right, here 108 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:28.360 was science saying this should happen, and now that we're 109 00:05:28.399 --> 00:05:30.639 physically doing it to prove that it did app. 110 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:35.160 Yeah, wow, big big invention innovation there. But I just 111 00:05:35.319 --> 00:05:37.839 like how you know it was like a squash court 112 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:39.040 at the University of Chicago. 113 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:41.399 Yeah yeah, And not only that, but they left it 114 00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:44.360 down there for years before they finally we should take 115 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:44.879 that away. 116 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:50.519 Yeah, anything else you want to say about nineteen forty two. 117 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:55.040 This was the year of the creation of cyanoacrolytes, or 118 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:59.639 what you would know as super Glue. Oh Eastman Kodak. 119 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:05.199 Superglue is currently holding one of the arms onto my 120 00:06:05.639 --> 00:06:07.199 metaquest two. 121 00:06:07.480 --> 00:06:11.480 There you go, because this is funny. 122 00:06:11.920 --> 00:06:14.399 When I went to, you know, figure out how to 123 00:06:15.040 --> 00:06:18.600 take it apart and put things on, I misread the 124 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:21.240 instructions and ended up pulling one of the straps off. 125 00:06:21.279 --> 00:06:23.319 So oops, Yeah, that wasn't good. 126 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:24.560 But super Glues to the rescue. 127 00:06:24.600 --> 00:06:27.360 This is also the forty two is also the first 128 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:30.879 year that they sort of began the idea of radio astronomy. 129 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:33.519 There was so much advancements in radar during the war 130 00:06:34.360 --> 00:06:37.040 that the idea that we could actually detect radio ways 131 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:39.279 from other sources. So they're trying to read their own 132 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:41.920 radio waves to find aircraft coming towards them, but they 133 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:44.160 realized there's other ones going on and these were actually 134 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:47.360 emissions coming from the Sun, and so the research that 135 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:51.160 guys like James Stanley Hay did in the early days 136 00:06:51.560 --> 00:06:55.319 became radio astronomy. But the first sort of written down 137 00:06:55.439 --> 00:06:57.519 version of there are radio waves coming from the summays 138 00:06:57.519 --> 00:06:58.399 in nineteen forty two. 139 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:01.759 Well, I guess that's enough geeking out for now. Who's 140 00:07:01.800 --> 00:07:02.560 talking to us today? 141 00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:05.399 Richard grabbed a comment off show nineteen oh nine, the 142 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:08.079 one we did back in augusta twenty four with jah 143 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:13.000 Shen Shang, which was talking about Aspire, specifically an approach 144 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:15.399 to using containers because the spier gives you a framework 145 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:18.079 to kind of go about that. We got this great 146 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:21.959 comment from Michael Warrence who said, a great episode. Although 147 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:24.120 I noticed a slight weariness in Carl at the start 148 00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:25.959 of this episode. I know it's been a long strange 149 00:07:26.000 --> 00:07:27.759 journey for you guys, but you do a great job 150 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:31.839 that is widely appreciated developer community. Still thanks, But in 151 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:34.759 this episode, hearing Jian Shen's down to earth approach, which 152 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:37.199 is what we really liked about talking here, which she 153 00:07:37.360 --> 00:07:40.959 immediately practical, super easy to engage with. All my knowledge 154 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:46.639 has come from screwon around and getting burned. The great 155 00:07:46.680 --> 00:07:49.399 thing about Donna Rodgs is the way a given topic 156 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.120 off and triggers super interesting chats about deeper subjects. During 157 00:07:52.120 --> 00:07:56.439 your conversation, a couple of topics emerged. Opinionatedness, this is 158 00:07:56.480 --> 00:08:00.000 such a word, and also the definition of micro services, 159 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:04.199 which we pressed on both right and Michael goes out 160 00:08:04.199 --> 00:08:06.319 to say, it seems that the fellow developers have been 161 00:08:06.360 --> 00:08:11.519 most opposed to opinionated software are the most opinionated developers. Yeah, 162 00:08:11.560 --> 00:08:12.959 it's usually the person who wants to be able to 163 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:14.720 do whatever they want, however they want. 164 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:15.120 Right. 165 00:08:15.199 --> 00:08:18.000 It gets annoyed when tools are built to be opinioned. 166 00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:20.800 They want ultimate flexibility, which creates more problems I think 167 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:21.279 than it solved. 168 00:08:21.319 --> 00:08:23.079 Yeah, my opinion, not yours. Right. 169 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:25.480 As for micro services, all I can say is that 170 00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:27.240 all the software I've worked on the past ten years 171 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:29.639 has distributed components in it which all need to be 172 00:08:29.639 --> 00:08:30.800 coordinated correctly. 173 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:31.600 For the application to run. 174 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:33.840 And as they used to say, the sum is greater 175 00:08:33.879 --> 00:08:38.960 than the whole, right, So having an opinionated orchestration approach 176 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:44.360 like a spire is great. Dashboard telemetry, service discovery all 177 00:08:44.399 --> 00:08:46.960 out of the box. And I very much agree on 178 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:50.360 XML XAMAL YAML versus Jason. I thought Jason was a 179 00:08:50.399 --> 00:08:52.679 great improvement to XML, but I can see the place 180 00:08:52.679 --> 00:08:55.519 for XML and MAUI to continue the concept of markup. 181 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.120 It was a great guest and a great show. Keep 182 00:08:58.159 --> 00:08:58.840 on rocking. 183 00:08:59.039 --> 00:08:59.200 You know. 184 00:08:59.320 --> 00:09:01.360 I had a meeting with the customer today and they 185 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:04.879 asked me if I'd ever done EXSLT transformed. Oh my goodness, 186 00:09:04.919 --> 00:09:07.039 and I said, Yeah, back in the early two thousands, 187 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:12.120 I tried it once and I had to have therapy afterwards. 188 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.200 Yeah, we all did it. May rest in peace. Yeah, 189 00:09:16.440 --> 00:09:17.759 so it's okay, we can let it go. 190 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:20.879 Yeah. Well, and what I got to say about that 191 00:09:20.919 --> 00:09:24.840 comment is that, yeah, I love dot net Aspire because 192 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:28.080 you know, it's opinion, ain't but it's flexible. You know. Yeah, 193 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:30.840 we're going with my opinion first, but if you've got 194 00:09:30.879 --> 00:09:32.360 another opinion, it's okay. 195 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:33.559 You swap it in and it's all right. 196 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:35.559 I just like, Yeah, I like that ability to experiment, 197 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:38.440 to try different services and so forth, to not be 198 00:09:38.679 --> 00:09:40.200 locked into something right up front. 199 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:40.480 Right. 200 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:42.200 Yeah, so, Michael, thank you so much for your comment. 201 00:09:42.279 --> 00:09:44.120 Any copy of music Cobey is on its way to you. 202 00:09:44.159 --> 00:09:45.600 And if you'd like a copy of music Code, I 203 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:47.399 write a comment on the website at dot net rocks 204 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:49.360 dot com or all the facebooks you publish every show there, 205 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:50.679 and you comment there and I read on the show. 206 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:52.960 We'll send your copy. Music go buy a music. 207 00:09:52.639 --> 00:09:54.960 Code by has a new track track twenty two, and 208 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:57.679 the orders are coming in, and not only just for 209 00:09:57.759 --> 00:10:00.840 twenty two, but for the collections. We have MP three, 210 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.320 Wave and Flak collections now all twenty two track. If 211 00:10:04.320 --> 00:10:05.960 you're a flacker, yeah, if you're a flacker. 212 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:06.879 Uh. 213 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:11.120 Maybe people don't know what flak is. Flak is lossless 214 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:12.840 like wave, but it's half the size. 215 00:10:13.039 --> 00:10:13.360 Yeah. 216 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:16.480 So you can download the flack zip file which is 217 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:19.399 half the size. Unzip it, convert him back to waves 218 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:20.960 and you've got perfect audio again. 219 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:21.360 Nice. 220 00:10:21.480 --> 00:10:23.879 Yeah, so it's good. All right, let's bring in our 221 00:10:23.919 --> 00:10:27.000 friend Rob Richardson. We haven't talked to in a long time. 222 00:10:27.200 --> 00:10:28.039 Too long. Yeah. 223 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:31.440 So Rob is a software craftsman building web properties in ASP, 224 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:36.080 neut and Node, React and View. He is a Microsoft MVP, 225 00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:40.159 a published author, frequent speaker at conferences, user groups, and 226 00:10:40.200 --> 00:10:43.840 community events, and a diligent teacher and student of high 227 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:47.840 quality software development. You can find his talks on robrich 228 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:52.279 dot org, slash presentations and follow him on masthodon at, 229 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.840 Rob rich at Hackeyderm dot io. Welcome back, old friend. 230 00:10:56.919 --> 00:10:58.039 How are you, dude? 231 00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.200 Well, it's great to be here. It's fun to be 232 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:02.600 able to dig into all things code. 233 00:11:02.840 --> 00:11:03.919 Yeah, sure is. 234 00:11:04.159 --> 00:11:07.120 I was hanging out with you and a bunch of 235 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:14.480 people after Tulsa Users Group, and that's when I almost 236 00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:16.240 did a double take because the last time I saw 237 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:20.320 you in person, you looked like a yogi. I did 238 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:24.600 you know long hair, long beard? I mean you're and 239 00:11:24.639 --> 00:11:28.440 you're tall. So yeah, it was quite a striking presence. 240 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:31.120 And now short hair, no facial hair. You like cleaning 241 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:31.799 up real good? 242 00:11:32.279 --> 00:11:32.600 Thanks? 243 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:33.360 Yeah. 244 00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:35.559 Yeah, my niece has started calling me sasquatch. 245 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:42.360 Yeah, there's a line. Do you just grunt er? 246 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:46.480 Yeah? After a while I was Uncle Harry dude, and 247 00:11:46.480 --> 00:11:49.720 now I'm uncle Unhirry dude. 248 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:50.039 Ye. 249 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:52.799 Anyway, what you've been doing lately. 250 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:55.200 I've been doing a bunch of conference speaking and a 251 00:11:55.200 --> 00:11:58.840 bunch of coding. It's fun to dig into all things 252 00:11:59.080 --> 00:12:02.080 dot net and dot net Aspire came about, which is 253 00:12:02.120 --> 00:12:05.360 really cool. It kind of brings open telemetry into view, 254 00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.919 and so it's been fun to dig into the DevOps 255 00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:11.240 parts of all the things doctor and kupernettes, but also 256 00:12:11.279 --> 00:12:13.679 fun to kind of dig into the code too. With 257 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:16.320 open telemetry and dot net Aspire, it's been a lot 258 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:16.639 of fun. 259 00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:20.240 Do you think more people are using open telemetry as 260 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.679 a result of embracing dot net Aspire that otherwise would 261 00:12:24.679 --> 00:12:25.360 not have I. 262 00:12:25.279 --> 00:12:28.639 Think so open telemetry has kind of become the de 263 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:32.559 facto standard for how we do logging, tracing and metrics, 264 00:12:32.720 --> 00:12:37.639 and so it's getting built into appliances and software frameworks. 265 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:39.759 And so the really cool part is now we get 266 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:42.120 to play with that in dot net as well. You know, 267 00:12:42.120 --> 00:12:45.320 we've already always had activities and interesting things there, but 268 00:12:45.919 --> 00:12:48.600 now because it's a very well paved paths it works 269 00:12:48.600 --> 00:12:49.159 out really well. 270 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:51.960 Yeah, isn't Azure app insights using open telemetry in the 271 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:52.679 background now? 272 00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:53.080 I think? 273 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:56.240 So it becomes an open telemetry sink in a really 274 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:59.080 elegant way. Yeah, it did speak its own protocol for 275 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:01.240 a time, but yeah, we're all kind of moving towards 276 00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:04.240 open telemetry as the protocol for how to do these things. 277 00:13:04.519 --> 00:13:06.799 I think the first time that we heard about open 278 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:11.639 telemetry was with Leila in Porto, and yeah, kind of 279 00:13:11.799 --> 00:13:14.559 kind of blew our mind. But I also thought about 280 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:20.600 all of the third party telemetry packages that you could 281 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.200 buy or subscribe to, you know, and what was their 282 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:27.399 reaction to to it. And you don't really hear too 283 00:13:27.480 --> 00:13:30.159 much about these guys anymore, although I don't. I don't, 284 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:30.919 but maybe you do. 285 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.919 Yeah, the cool part is now that we kind of 286 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:37.519 have reached a standard. Maybe we don't mind. You know, 287 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:39.480 I can still pipe it off to Splunk or new 288 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.120 Relic or wherever I want to send it, but now 289 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:43.600 we're all speaking the same protocol. 290 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:44.320 Yeah. 291 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:47.080 So for example, I was futzing with engine X and 292 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:49.039 I'm like, hey, I wonder if engine X can do 293 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:49.960 open telemetry. 294 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:51.120 YEP. 295 00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:53.639 I just pull in the engine X protocol and the 296 00:13:53.679 --> 00:13:56.759 way it goes and now I get tracing through Engine 297 00:13:56.960 --> 00:13:58.879 X on the way past. It's really cool. 298 00:13:59.399 --> 00:14:01.000 Just comes by default. Yeah. 299 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:04.840 Yeah, And that's the whole thing is like it's part 300 00:14:04.879 --> 00:14:07.200 of the plumbing. It kind of it's there automatically, like 301 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:09.519 you've got to fight to turn it off. It's just 302 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:11.879 normally there and it complies all these standards, so it 303 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:16.360 appears everywhere like that's the advantage. It's just because they 304 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:18.399 open tell them stuff really comes out of the Linux world. 305 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:20.519 It's just we had to adopt it. We're kind of 306 00:14:20.559 --> 00:14:21.480 late comers to this. 307 00:14:21.440 --> 00:14:23.440 Thing, right, And it's not so much that I have 308 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:26.159 to fight to turn it off, but rather the moment 309 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:29.159 that I handed a place to go, it'll just light up. 310 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:31.919 And so until I tell it where to go, then 311 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:33.720 it really doesn't impact my app at all. 312 00:14:34.000 --> 00:14:36.000 Yeah, and it's just it's yeah, it's just lost bits. 313 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:38.399 They don't go nowhere, right, Yeah, that's a good point. 314 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:41.320 And people may think that, you know, I don't want 315 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:43.879 to turn something on that's going to take my cycles 316 00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:47.120 in the background, and you know, steel performance and blah 317 00:14:47.120 --> 00:14:47.559 blah blah. 318 00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.519 But you're right, unless. 319 00:14:49.440 --> 00:14:51.639 Unless you can figure it, it's just sitting there. 320 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:51.960 Yeah. 321 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:53.720 And there is a little bit of a sharp edge 322 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:58.000 right there, because well, as I'm working with these activities 323 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:00.679 inside of dot net, I may go reach for the 324 00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:04.039 current activity and if nothing's listening, it could be NOLL. 325 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:06.279 So I do need to check to see if it's 326 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:07.559 NOLL on the way past. 327 00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:10.679 Right, Yeah, we dot net programmers have gotten used to that. Yeah, 328 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:13.679 nols will never hurt you. Well, maybe a little. Well. 329 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:16.679 The language, though, sea sharp really evolved to handle knowles, 330 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:17.080 didn't it. 331 00:15:17.159 --> 00:15:19.200 Yeah, now that we have noble reference types, this is 332 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:20.080 really not a big deal. 333 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:21.080 It's not a big deal. 334 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:24.679 And the c sharp expressions to if noel do this, 335 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.240 if not do that, I think you can't read them, but. 336 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:31.399 Certainly is expressive. 337 00:15:32.759 --> 00:15:34.919 Well, the Coole syntax is that we just put a 338 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:37.519 question mark before the dot and you know, coding and 339 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.559 audio is always weird. Yeah, but like that same syntax 340 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:43.440 works in JavaScript and in other languages as well. So 341 00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:46.679 I think as a programming community we've kind of figured 342 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:49.799 out that NOLL handling is easy. You just question mark 343 00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:51.120 first and it just works. 344 00:15:51.440 --> 00:15:54.559 It's great, right, And if you're using visual Studio, Copilot's 345 00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:56.080 going to tell you the rest of it anyway. Just 346 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:58.080 hit tab, Yeah, question mark dot tab. 347 00:15:59.200 --> 00:15:59.759 There you go. 348 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:01.600 What could happen? 349 00:16:01.799 --> 00:16:04.799 Yeah, it's funny how much we're copilots now, reflect like 350 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:06.879 already it's only been a couple of years and we're 351 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:09.360 already like, yeah, you just do it this way. 352 00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:12.159 Yeah. I like Copilot finish that for me. I love that. 353 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:16.600 In the latest VS Code there's an experiment where Copilot 354 00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:17.720 has a Clippy icon. 355 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:22.759 Ah. Oh no, we kept threatening to bring that back. 356 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:23.480 Why not? 357 00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:28.279 Why what's wrong with a paper clip? Animated paper clips 358 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:29.799 are your friend? No? 359 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:30.320 No, they're not. 360 00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:36.200 Can't have a little fun, They're evil? Yeah, they the 361 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:37.960 whole trick there. You know what went wrong with Clippy 362 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:40.840 back in the day is the interruption. You think about 363 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:43.039 how much smarter we are with you access today, Well, 364 00:16:43.120 --> 00:16:47.559 how carefully studio tries not to interrupt you, tries to 365 00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:50.399 still provide the hint, the swiggle or the little light 366 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:53.240 up tool or all of those things, that there's something 367 00:16:53.279 --> 00:16:56.440 I could help you with here without actually interrupting your food. 368 00:16:56.480 --> 00:16:58.440 Well, is it that, Richard, or is it that we've 369 00:16:58.480 --> 00:17:01.399 all become much more eighty eight so we don't notice 370 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:04.599 it because everything interrupts us all the time. I tend 371 00:17:04.599 --> 00:17:06.960 to think it's somewhere in the middle degrees of interruption. 372 00:17:07.160 --> 00:17:10.000 I thought Clippy died a long time ago. You know, hey, 373 00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:12.160 it did. Is that Is that a business graver or 374 00:17:12.200 --> 00:17:13.400 a personal grave you're digging? 375 00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:16.079 Can I help you with that? 376 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.640 And what was hilarious about Clippy was how irrelevant the 377 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:21.440 suggestions were, Right, I think, you know, co Pilot is 378 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:24.640 so much more relevant now and that can be really 379 00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:25.319 really helpful. 380 00:17:25.480 --> 00:17:27.160 And Aaron lies the point, right, It's like, I don't 381 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:30.839 mind you interrupting me if you're actually providing me help, 382 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:34.920 like you're going to shorten my effort. I just you know, 383 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:37.319 we're all pretty skeptical of that because we've had pretty 384 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:39.480 bad experiences with right, well had options. 385 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:42.559 Yeah, I mean AI for coding help in general is 386 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:43.079 really good. 387 00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:43.559 Yeah. 388 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:47.200 I was just today I'm working on an old project 389 00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:50.480 that needs to be brought into the you know, twenty 390 00:17:50.480 --> 00:17:54.960 first century. Starting there with, there was no models. You know, 391 00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:58.359 the models were part of a SPX pages that were 392 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:02.519 all combined with Java script, and so there was no 393 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:04.319 fresh model. So the first thing I had to do 394 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:06.359 is go to the database. And I know that there's 395 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:10.759 ways to scaffold that, but I just did a create 396 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:16.279 two clipboard for a table, pasted into chat GPT and said, hey, 397 00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:18.000 make me a class from this. I was like, yeah, 398 00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:18.559 no problem. 399 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:23.920 It's great because conversational mindset with your software is just interesting, right, Yeah, 400 00:18:24.079 --> 00:18:26.240 And I think the interesting part of that is you 401 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.279 would do this with a person anyway, and you tend 402 00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:30.200 to make better software when you explain yourself. 403 00:18:30.359 --> 00:18:30.599 Yeah. 404 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:32.839 How many times have I gone to write something in 405 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:36.240 stack overflow and the process of writing it answered it? Yeah, 406 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.279 and then I've never posted it absolutely, And so this 407 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:43.480 tool stimulates that behavior really well. Rubber ducking. 408 00:18:43.720 --> 00:18:45.039 You're ducking all the time. 409 00:18:45.160 --> 00:18:48.599 Interesting thing about that process though, Yeah, I spent the 410 00:18:48.960 --> 00:18:53.640 time kind of interviewing myself to figure out the proper question. 411 00:18:54.519 --> 00:18:56.759 And now that I'm on stack overflow and I have 412 00:18:57.240 --> 00:19:00.000 figured it out part of me wants to just ask 413 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:04.000 the question and then answer it because good for tomorrow 414 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:07.960 or next week, some ignorant developer me is going to 415 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.160 ask that question again, and so can I pave the 416 00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:13.599 path a little bit better for the next generation m. 417 00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:16.240 M, yeah, the next generation of you. 418 00:19:16.640 --> 00:19:16.839 Yeah. 419 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:20.039 What's really annoying is when I'm really struggling with something 420 00:19:20.119 --> 00:19:22.119 and I go to Google it and I find this 421 00:19:22.200 --> 00:19:26.599 really cool post on my blog explaining it, and I'm like, 422 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:27.240 oh wait. 423 00:19:28.720 --> 00:19:31.079 I figured this out a while Well that was Handsoman's line, right, 424 00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:32.920 I'm just writing this down so I don't have to 425 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:34.680 remember it because I'm. 426 00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:37.839 Not gonna yea And then anytime anybody asks him a question, 427 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:39.440 he just answers it with a ur l. 428 00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:43.839 Yeah it's not real sociable, but okay, now sufficient. 429 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:48.519 True enough? 430 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.839 So you you've already Carl's already said scaffold, but I 431 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.240 heard it's a dirty word with dot net aspire. What 432 00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:58.559 is is dot aspire scaffolding or is it a framework? 433 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:01.079 Like? Because what is it? 434 00:20:01.160 --> 00:20:03.279 And that's one of the weird things is as we 435 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:06.079 look at dot net Aspire, we kind of go, what 436 00:20:06.200 --> 00:20:07.960 is it? You know, what are we trying to solve 437 00:20:08.000 --> 00:20:12.119 here what is and we say words like open telemetry 438 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:16.240 and service discovery and all those kind of get around 439 00:20:16.359 --> 00:20:20.559 the topic. But yeah, it is kind of difficult to quantify. 440 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:24.400 The biggest purpose of dot Net Aspire is to help 441 00:20:24.519 --> 00:20:27.279 us fall into the pit of success, right, to help 442 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:30.720 us build distributed software. And so there's a whole bunch 443 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.720 of stuff in there to facilitate this, all of the 444 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:37.279 web's best practices like open telemetry and service discovery and 445 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:42.200 injecting environment variables to do cool things. But as we 446 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.400 start peeling the onion there, then we end up with 447 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:48.400 just really cool experiences that allow us to do really 448 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:53.359 fun things. And so in there is launching projects all together. 449 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:56.480 Project tie did this for us back in the day, 450 00:20:56.839 --> 00:20:58.880 where we could say, hey, I want to get this 451 00:20:58.960 --> 00:21:01.039 project to call that project, and I don't want to 452 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:03.839 have to figure out open ports, just like kind of 453 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:06.799 do that. And so then we also get really cool 454 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.880 container orchestration where we can say and start this container 455 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:15.119 as part of it, and if it's a database container, 456 00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:17.839 let me inject in the data that I need to 457 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:20.240 be able to spin it up. And so now we 458 00:21:20.359 --> 00:21:24.920 can orchestrate containers and dot net projects and command line 459 00:21:24.960 --> 00:21:28.319 executables and inject environment variable so that they can all 460 00:21:28.359 --> 00:21:30.400 get to talk to each other. And that's a big 461 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:32.880 piece of it. But then we also have kind of 462 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:35.480 the piece coming back where we can say, well, let's 463 00:21:35.559 --> 00:21:39.839 collect all the logs and traces and metrics and surface 464 00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:43.440 them in a really cool discoverable dashboard so that no 465 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:45.559 longer do you have to figure out how does this 466 00:21:45.640 --> 00:21:49.559 call that, what was the error there, which console window 467 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.319 was it? And so there's that part of it, But 468 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.680 then there's also another part of it of simplifying dot 469 00:21:55.799 --> 00:22:00.799 net experiences. So we have a bunch of two projects 470 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:03.000 that it creates, the app host project, but also the 471 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:06.759 service defaults project. And in that service defaults project, it 472 00:22:06.799 --> 00:22:09.319 will rig up health checks, and it will rig up 473 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:11.880 open telemetry, and it will rig up all kinds of 474 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.039 interesting things. But unlike some of the other places where 475 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:17.839 they kind of hide that away, they're actually giving us 476 00:22:17.839 --> 00:22:20.400 the code, so if we have different opinions, we can 477 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:23.400 express those opinions in there too. And then as part 478 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:26.759 of that, there are dot net Aspire components that just 479 00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:30.319 make connection strings kind of melt away, so no longer 480 00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:32.559 do I need to rig up the details of how 481 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:36.319 this connects to that or even how this connects to 482 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:38.720 that database. I just kind of say, hey, I would 483 00:22:38.720 --> 00:22:42.039 like this Aspire component that hooks me to, for example, 484 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:46.839 Postcress or redd Us, and then with an app host, 485 00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:49.160 I say, oh, and by the way, spin up postgrass 486 00:22:49.240 --> 00:22:51.559 or redd Us. And now there aren't connection strings in 487 00:22:51.559 --> 00:22:52.559 my application at all. 488 00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:52.920 Right. 489 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.960 Dot net Aspire just kind of handles that with environment 490 00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:59.279 variables poked into it. And so it's all of these pieces. 491 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:04.119 It's the dot net best practices at the service discovery, 492 00:23:04.279 --> 00:23:07.119 it's the launching multiple things at the same time. It's 493 00:23:07.160 --> 00:23:11.279 the simplifying configuration pieces. And because it's all of those 494 00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:14.119 things kind of wrapped into one, then we kind of go, 495 00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:17.480 well what is this? And it's really easy then to say, well, 496 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:20.000 this is huge and overwhelming, and I have opinions on 497 00:23:20.039 --> 00:23:21.680 that and I don't want to do that. But what's 498 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:25.400 beautiful about dot net Aspire is that I can use 499 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.960 as much or as little of it as I want. 500 00:23:28.480 --> 00:23:30.880 And so if I like this opinion, I can do that, 501 00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:33.079 and if I don't like this opinion, I can do 502 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:33.640 something else. 503 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:36.960 Yeah, and the thing that the red flag goes off 504 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:38.799 in my head probably a lot of listeners who aren't 505 00:23:38.839 --> 00:23:42.160 using this and who don't have experience with it, is, well, 506 00:23:42.359 --> 00:23:44.480 how am I going to know how to do that? 507 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:44.799 Like? 508 00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:46.880 How am I going to say? Am I going to 509 00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:50.720 be ab test you know, my way versus Aspire's way? 510 00:23:50.720 --> 00:23:52.359 And am I going to screw anything up if I 511 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:53.599 change any configuration? 512 00:23:54.519 --> 00:23:54.720 Yeah? 513 00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:56.759 You kind of have to understand the whole thing. It's 514 00:23:56.839 --> 00:24:01.240 kind of like co generators. You know, stuff that generates code. 515 00:24:01.279 --> 00:24:03.319 You use it and it's great, but if you don't 516 00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:05.079 really know what it's generating. 517 00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:06.039 Should you? 518 00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:08.640 How do you trust it? How do you know when 519 00:24:08.680 --> 00:24:11.039 things go wrong what to do, how to fix it? 520 00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:15.000 So there's some trepidation I think among some people to 521 00:24:15.119 --> 00:24:17.839 jump in because they think, oh, this is going to 522 00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:20.920 do all this work for me. Where am I going 523 00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:24.519 to look when something doesn't do what I wanted to do? 524 00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:26.880 And the cool part there is, for the most part, 525 00:24:27.400 --> 00:24:30.240 the majority of open telemetry can be a development tool. 526 00:24:30.920 --> 00:24:35.640 So it's not like I'm expressing opinions into production that 527 00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:37.599 I may not agree with or may do ut understand. 528 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:40.880 But instead I can say, well, let me see if 529 00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:43.680 this makes my developers more productive, and I'll deploy the 530 00:24:43.720 --> 00:24:46.079 way I deploy today, or maybe I'll even rig up 531 00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:49.000 connection strings the way I do it today. But let 532 00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:52.319 me in development start up all the micro services that 533 00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.119 I need to be able to accomplish this, startup containerized 534 00:24:56.960 --> 00:25:01.920 data stores or other dependencies. And if that's helpful, then 535 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:04.359 that's great. Maybe I can retire the doctor composed file 536 00:25:04.400 --> 00:25:07.680 that I was using before, But if it isn't, then yeah, 537 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:09.759 it's just a new get package. I don't need to. 538 00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:13.200 You know, I had a friend that talked about, well, 539 00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:15.640 it's kind of nice, but you have to make it 540 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:18.519 look like Chicago. Well what if I wanted to make 541 00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:22.799 it look like Chicago? And d net Aspire has some opinions, 542 00:25:22.839 --> 00:25:25.599 but doesn't really force those opinions on you. If you 543 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:28.319 don't want it to look like Chicago, then don't. 544 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:32.240 Okay Chicago meaning the version of Windows. 545 00:25:32.440 --> 00:25:34.480 Well, it was like, well, I can configure this one 546 00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:37.000 little thing and I can adjust my car in a 547 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:39.400 certain way, But now I have to make the skyline 548 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:41.559 look like Chicago. I see, And what if I don't 549 00:25:41.599 --> 00:25:43.480 like Chicago? What if I like New York or what 550 00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:44.400 if I like the country? 551 00:25:44.519 --> 00:25:47.400 Right, But it's not really a visual style, it's a yeah, 552 00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:49.279 it's stuff that helps you on the back. 553 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:50.119 End with your plumbing code. 554 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:54.119 Really yeah, yeah, exactly. It's configuration details, not so much 555 00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:55.880 user experience details. 556 00:25:56.200 --> 00:26:01.039 I like to think of Aspire as a sort of 557 00:26:01.079 --> 00:26:06.480 a gigantic visual studio template, you know, if you think 558 00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:08.519 of it that way, like when you when you go 559 00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.240 to create a new project, you create a Blazer project, 560 00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.960 you can create a you know, Docker whatever you're going 561 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.839 to do, asp Net, empty core, and there's some stuff 562 00:26:19.880 --> 00:26:21.720 that's set up for you there to make it easy 563 00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:24.599 for you to get started. Yeah, if it's a Blazer project, 564 00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.440 you're going to delete the counterpage, and you're going to 565 00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:29.599 delete the weather page, or you might not even include 566 00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:35.599 those at all, but at least you know where you're starting, right, 567 00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:38.559 And I think of Aspires like that. When you create 568 00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:42.200 an Aspire project, Yeah, you got some checks and some 569 00:26:42.319 --> 00:26:45.880 options and things, and then you've started and it's already 570 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.240 done so many things for you that you probably are 571 00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:52.480 going to do yourself at some point, but they're already done. 572 00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:57.799 So that makes it easy to discover how Aspire works, 573 00:26:57.839 --> 00:26:59.880 just by creating a project and seeing what you get. 574 00:27:00.119 --> 00:27:04.119 Yeah, the new project template for Aspire is amazing. One 575 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:05.839 of the things that I do. And the talk that 576 00:27:05.880 --> 00:27:09.480 you actually saw in Tulsa was highlight how you might 577 00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:12.480 get started with an existing project as well. It's not 578 00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:15.759 like you can't do dot net Aspire inside of an 579 00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:18.920 existing thing. And inside an existing project, you already have 580 00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:23.359 configuration details, you already have logging, you already have connection strings, 581 00:27:23.359 --> 00:27:27.079 and so you can just not use those opinions from 582 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:29.160 dot net Aspire and instead just use it as an 583 00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:30.839 open telemetry sink a dashboard. 584 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.119 I think I said this before on a different show, 585 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:36.000 but one of my customers we did that for them. 586 00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:40.920 We added Aspire to their existing application. The only problem 587 00:27:40.960 --> 00:27:44.279 we really had, ironically was with Polly HM, you know, 588 00:27:44.519 --> 00:27:48.200 because of the difference between using polydirectly and then using 589 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:54.240 the HTDP request factory. I think it was the HDP 590 00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:57.519 client factory. Yeah, yeah, those Poly guys, which is I know, 591 00:27:57.799 --> 00:27:59.319 good thing. We're not like them, I know. 592 00:28:00.119 --> 00:28:01.119 Screw those guys. 593 00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:04.240 But he's in poll part of a spire like it's 594 00:28:04.279 --> 00:28:07.119 deployed a lot as part of the scaffolding. 595 00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:09.400 It's one of the best practices that it pulls in 596 00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.480 part of the service defaults. And if we like that opinion, 597 00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:14.880 we definitely can and if we don't, we can rip 598 00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:15.160 it up. 599 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:15.440 Right. 600 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:18.160 But here's the thing, though, Polly has a project. If 601 00:28:18.160 --> 00:28:20.559 you have it in your project, right, and then you 602 00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:26.319 go to using HTDP client factory that uses the stuff 603 00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:28.880 from Polly that's in dot net core. So it's already 604 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:33.359 doing or doing a resilient strategy. Now you've got to 605 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:35.200 pick one or the other. That's the thing. 606 00:28:35.319 --> 00:28:37.200 Too many resilient strategies at once. 607 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:39.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like too many cashes. 608 00:28:40.079 --> 00:28:42.640 Yeah, you already have a cash? Would you like to 609 00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:45.160 cash the cash? No, you really shouldn't do that. That's 610 00:28:45.160 --> 00:28:47.039 not a good idea. Oh, not a good idea. 611 00:28:47.319 --> 00:28:49.839 Yeah, we should take a break for a minute, friends, Yeah, 612 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:51.759 let's take a break. We'll be right back after these 613 00:28:51.839 --> 00:28:53.960 very important messages. And as a reminder, if you don't 614 00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:56.400 want to hear these messages, you can become a patron 615 00:28:56.440 --> 00:28:58.759 at Patreon at dot netroocks dot com for five bucks 616 00:28:58.759 --> 00:29:00.000 a month and you get an ad free fee. 617 00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:01.640 All right, here we go. 618 00:29:02.519 --> 00:29:05.200 Did you know that you can work with AWS directly 619 00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:10.440 from your ID. AWS provides toolkits for visual studio, visual 620 00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:14.799 studio code, and jet Brains rider. Learn more at Aws 621 00:29:14.880 --> 00:29:22.839 dot Amazon dot com. Slash Net, slash Tools, and we're back. 622 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:25.440 It's dot in a Rocks and Carl Franklin, that's Richard Campbell, 623 00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:29.799 hey in the fine country of Canada, indeed, and our 624 00:29:29.839 --> 00:29:34.519 friend Rob Richardson, who we're talking about dot net Aspire 625 00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:39.000 in detail now, but I got a feeling that we're 626 00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:41.599 you know, we've been talking about more things than just Aspire. 627 00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:46.519 But the latest template is what you were just talking about, 628 00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:48.200 the latest visual studio template. 629 00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:51.160 Yeah, it's really cool because getting started with dot net 630 00:29:51.200 --> 00:29:55.000 Aspire is super easy. I used to have to install 631 00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:57.759 a visual studio workload. That's no longer a thing in 632 00:29:58.680 --> 00:30:02.519 using dot net Aspire in net nine and so now 633 00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:05.240 I just file new project and I there's a dot 634 00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:09.000 net Aspire starter template. I can check whether I want 635 00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:12.039 to include Reddus or not. If I include Rettus, then 636 00:30:12.079 --> 00:30:15.200 I need to have a container orchestrator like Podman or 637 00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:20.799 Docker desktop. And if I unchecked that, then it just 638 00:30:20.839 --> 00:30:23.319 won't include those bits. I can fire it up and 639 00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:25.480 I can get a feel for how dot net Aspire 640 00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:28.240 might integrate into an application. It's a great way to 641 00:30:28.240 --> 00:30:29.640 get started, really really easily. 642 00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:32.160 And we just got to We just had a version 643 00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:34.480 number update Right, it's nine point one. Now, I mean 644 00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:36.680 they started with nine cheating. 645 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:39.440 Well they started with eight. But yeah, now that we 646 00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:40.880 have nine point one, it's pretty cool. 647 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:43.039 Okay, what's the point one? 648 00:30:43.880 --> 00:30:44.960 The number after nine? 649 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:46.240 Nice? 650 00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:49.440 What I found really cool is even the upgrade from 651 00:30:49.480 --> 00:30:51.759 dot net eight to dot net nine or dot net 652 00:30:51.799 --> 00:30:54.960 Aspire eight to nine wasn't all that significant. It wasn't 653 00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:57.519 all that changing. We now had the ability to wait 654 00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:00.119 for services to start up, which is really cool. But 655 00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:05.359 what's new in nine dot one? The command that you 656 00:31:05.400 --> 00:31:06.519 need to run update. 657 00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:11.200 It I see in the notes here it's like Polish, 658 00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:13.559 Polish Polish, Like they're just making a little easier for 659 00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:15.079 things to have to happen. 660 00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:17.160 There's a bunch of new features in nine point one. 661 00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.839 The one I'm most excited about is that you can 662 00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:23.759 start services on demand, rather than having them start at 663 00:31:23.799 --> 00:31:27.599 the beginning as the app post starts. But you can 664 00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:31.400 now do nested resources. For example, you create a database server, 665 00:31:31.599 --> 00:31:34.200 and then you create a database on that server. The 666 00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:37.599 database is now nested under the server. You can now 667 00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:41.359 clear and download the logs and traces, which is really cool. 668 00:31:41.640 --> 00:31:44.400 They're still not durable, they're not still not saved to memory, 669 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:47.680 but you can clear them and download them, and so 670 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:49.960 if you download them now you can compare them to 671 00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:52.839 what you did yesterday. The resource can fig screens on 672 00:31:52.880 --> 00:31:57.319 the dashboard now show not only the configuration details, but 673 00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:00.920 which resources depend on them, which resources it depends on, 674 00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:03.799 and so that can kind of help you discover dependencies. 675 00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:08.799 Previously you could emulate Azure storage, which with an Azurite container, 676 00:32:09.319 --> 00:32:13.039 but now there's emulators for Azure Service, Bus, Cosmos dB, 677 00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:16.680 and Signal R. There's some testing improvements, like you can 678 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:20.559 add disabled randomized ports and enable the dashboard during tests. 679 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.119 That can be really helpful, and the release notes doesn't 680 00:32:24.119 --> 00:32:27.440 call it out. I'm sure everything is more, better, faster. 681 00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:32.319 They're always doing performance improvements in everything. It was so 682 00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:35.519 amazing to me in dot net six how span of 683 00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:38.640 t just made everything faster just by upgrading. So I 684 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.720 wouldn't doubt that there are some performance enhancements here too. 685 00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:44.720 But the one I'm the most excited about is starting 686 00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:48.640 services on demand. For example, I don't want my Azure 687 00:32:48.680 --> 00:32:51.200 functions to start every time. I mostly want to work 688 00:32:51.240 --> 00:32:53.880 on the website, so now I can figure the function 689 00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:57.160 apps to not start automatically. And instead when I started 690 00:32:57.200 --> 00:33:00.279 the app post, the website starts up and the other 691 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.480 ones are stopped, and so I can just go push 692 00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:04.920 play if I need them. But in most cases I 693 00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:07.240 just I don't need those resources, and so it can 694 00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:10.359 work out really great. These are a lot of new 695 00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:14.480 things in dot net Aspire nine point one. But the 696 00:33:14.480 --> 00:33:16.799 cool part is, Yeah, the upgrade is just you know, 697 00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:21.920 upgrade and everything that you've used before. There's no breaking changes, 698 00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:25.400 I believe, and so the upgrade is just super simple, 699 00:33:25.839 --> 00:33:28.839 and if you happen on features that are really interesting 700 00:33:28.880 --> 00:33:31.200 to you, it can be really great. 701 00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:32.079 Yeah. 702 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.759 I think the dashboard is a thing that hooks people. Yeah, 703 00:33:34.799 --> 00:33:36.799 because you're going to need to build one. So the 704 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:39.400 fact that it just generated for you and then you 705 00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:43.000 can tweak it is a great hook besides all the 706 00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:43.960 other stuff. 707 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:47.440 And here's where my opinions probably differ from others opinions. 708 00:33:47.480 --> 00:33:49.680 But I would say that that dashboard is great for 709 00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:53.880 local development, but you probably want to use a different 710 00:33:53.960 --> 00:33:57.880 dashboard in production. That dashboard doesn't have any durable storage. 711 00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:00.000 There are plugins that allow you to get durable stores, 712 00:34:00.519 --> 00:34:04.200 but it's like I found an error that happened yesterday. 713 00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:06.559 It stores it in memory and that's already gone. 714 00:34:06.720 --> 00:34:07.200 Oh. 715 00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:11.519 It also collects all of the configuration details for all 716 00:34:11.559 --> 00:34:15.119 of your applications. And so if we deployed this and 717 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.239 put it in production and accidentally exposed it publicly, then 718 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:22.079 we've just exposed the entirety of the configuration of all 719 00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:23.400 of our application. 720 00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:25.760 Right the black hats, thank you for your service. 721 00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:31.719 Yes, But the cool part is you can use this 722 00:34:31.840 --> 00:34:34.519 dashboard as a standalone container. And so if you have 723 00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:38.480 a Python app, or I actually have a JavaScript front 724 00:34:38.519 --> 00:34:41.400 end to React app in my demo, I'm doing view, 725 00:34:41.719 --> 00:34:44.719 which then pipes all the data into open telemetry. And 726 00:34:44.760 --> 00:34:47.639 so a View front end and a Python back end 727 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:51.800 using dot net Aspyrus dashboard without dot net running? Are 728 00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:55.800 you really cool? Hey? 729 00:34:55.880 --> 00:34:57.840 Say where are you from anyway? 730 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:02.000 You know it's called dot net is fire. Yeah, yeah, 731 00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:03.559 I don't know what you think you're up to. 732 00:35:05.159 --> 00:35:07.679 Right, Well, the cool part is it just becomes an 733 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:08.719 open telemetry think. 734 00:35:08.920 --> 00:35:12.400 So there's no Windows servers here anywhere, It's not, it's 735 00:35:12.519 --> 00:35:14.320 just dot net is all about it. 736 00:35:16.079 --> 00:35:18.760 Like you can't if you're deploying any the cloud, you're 737 00:35:18.800 --> 00:35:21.760 still deploying on a Windows instance. It's you're literally throwing 738 00:35:21.800 --> 00:35:24.440 money away, right, Like if you're running modern dot net, 739 00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.760 it runs on a Linux instance and it's literally like 740 00:35:27.800 --> 00:35:29.079 a twenty five percent price cut. 741 00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:31.679 Yeah. The point there was that there's still a large 742 00:35:31.719 --> 00:35:35.039 group of people who haven't looked in dot net in 743 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:38.320 fifteen years because they think it's all about Windows. Yeah, 744 00:35:38.360 --> 00:35:41.360 and it's kind of stinks that that branding has stuck. 745 00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:42.960 Well and it's a non trivial mom folks that are 746 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:45.199 still on you know, four or five two, Like they're 747 00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:47.920 for a reason, They've got dependencies, They're not going to 748 00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:50.159 give up their web forms, Like it's just not that simple. 749 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:51.400 There's a lot of work done. 750 00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.639 Yep, I agree. I have a dot net for it's 751 00:35:54.679 --> 00:35:57.960 now dot Net four seven app runs with Crystal Reports 752 00:35:57.960 --> 00:36:00.480 and Windows forms and it's like, yeah, that's not going anywhere. 753 00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:03.559 Oh man, oh that hurts. 754 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:06.800 Yeah, no kidding, Like Crystal Reports. You said that with 755 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:09.559 words out loud, like what the what the what? 756 00:36:09.719 --> 00:36:12.800 I remember I remember being at a v bits and 757 00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:15.599 it was in the early days of Internet Information server 758 00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:18.639 and a guy from Crystal Reports came up to me 759 00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:21.840 and he said, Hey, we've got Crystal Reports running on 760 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.039 the back end in iis isn't that awesome? And I'm like, 761 00:36:25.480 --> 00:36:27.480 oh my god, how much memory do you have to 762 00:36:27.559 --> 00:36:31.000 have to have that behemoth of an application running in 763 00:36:31.039 --> 00:36:34.199 the background, which, by the way, was apartment threaded, so 764 00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:35.880 you could only use it one at a time. 765 00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:39.639 Oh my god, what a nightmare. Yeah. 766 00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:42.320 I found a similar app where they were launching Excel 767 00:36:42.480 --> 00:36:47.159 from the web server and I'm like, yeah, I'm not 768 00:36:47.199 --> 00:36:47.960 sure if you get this. 769 00:36:48.119 --> 00:36:51.199 It's just because you could, doesn't mean you should. 770 00:36:51.360 --> 00:36:53.639 And then and then it would crash or fail to close, 771 00:36:53.679 --> 00:36:55.639 and so you'd end up with multiple instances of Excel 772 00:36:55.719 --> 00:36:57.760 on the machine. Yeah, and then you eventually write an 773 00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:01.000 Excel watcher that pokes in yeah to task manager and 774 00:37:01.079 --> 00:37:03.639 kills orphan a instance of Excel. Why do I know 775 00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:05.719 this stuff? Why is this stuff? Fill in my head? 776 00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:07.079 I remember I did that. 777 00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:10.440 You know, I tried it, and you know it was possible, 778 00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:13.039 but nobody really understood the whole apartment threading thing. 779 00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:14.960 Yeah, I'm sorry, I want to bring us back to 780 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:15.599 the nineties. 781 00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:18.360 But geez, And that's really cool. Is you set all 782 00:37:18.360 --> 00:37:20.599 that aside and you can run dot net inside of 783 00:37:20.639 --> 00:37:24.519 Linux containers in community hosting and it is just amazing. 784 00:37:24.840 --> 00:37:26.880 Dot Net has come a long way. 785 00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:27.679 Certainly has well. 786 00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:30.119 This sort of explains the spire, right, It's like, this 787 00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:32.679 is the language that once upon a time was for 788 00:37:32.719 --> 00:37:36.119 building client server apps, and then you know, evolved into 789 00:37:36.199 --> 00:37:39.599 web as well, and now it's cloudland, and so give 790 00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:41.480 us a set of defaults that are for cloud Land. 791 00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:44.760 Should we take a moment to just praise Microsoft for 792 00:37:44.880 --> 00:37:48.800 making dot Net nine so much more performance crazy and 793 00:37:48.880 --> 00:37:53.719 memory less memory use. It's just ridiculous. 794 00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:56.000 Dot Net six was that way as well. It was 795 00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:58.719 a major sure was a breakthrough performance boost. And it's 796 00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:01.480 really cool because upgrading from dot net three to one 797 00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:04.360 all the way up to dot Net nine is just 798 00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:08.360 really easy. You know, change the version number in the 799 00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:11.320 cs prog files, update new get packages, and you're there. 800 00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:13.719 Yeah, it's that whole update new get packages thing that 801 00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:16.960 usually people have a problem with, only because some of 802 00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:19.960 those new get packages don't exist anymore. They don't work 803 00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:25.039 in dot net core or whatever. Yeah, do it nine rather, Yeah, Yeah. 804 00:38:25.159 --> 00:38:29.199 Dot standard was an interesting dilemma. And yeah, now that 805 00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:31.599 we've set that aside too, yeah, it's just smooth. 806 00:38:31.320 --> 00:38:33.760 In Well, it's a good reminder that dot Net standard 807 00:38:33.800 --> 00:38:34.400 wasn't for US. 808 00:38:34.440 --> 00:38:35.800 It was actually for Microsoft. 809 00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:38.480 Yeah right, it was Microsoft trying to get all of 810 00:38:38.519 --> 00:38:42.480 their internal versions of dot net aligned, and we may 811 00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:44.599 have been the beneficiaries of it, but once that alignment 812 00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:46.480 was done, they really didn't care about anymore. 813 00:38:46.480 --> 00:38:47.519 It was no longer necessary. 814 00:38:47.599 --> 00:38:49.800 Yeah, just wasn't the thing. And you know that. 815 00:38:49.840 --> 00:38:53.800 It's also why xammal standard failed because they couldn't get 816 00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:56.239 all of those internal versions of Exammal aligned. 817 00:38:56.559 --> 00:39:00.360 Wishful thinking, like running Excel in iis. 818 00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:03.480 That's going to be. 819 00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:06.039 Burned in like a norphan Excel instance on a server 820 00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:07.519 somewhere somewhere. 821 00:39:08.719 --> 00:39:09.119 Wow. 822 00:39:09.800 --> 00:39:12.119 Yeah, I'm just double checking the version numbers, and four 823 00:39:12.280 --> 00:39:17.840 eight one last updated August of twenty two, so it's 824 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:21.800 two and a half years since that Windows only frame 825 00:39:22.039 --> 00:39:23.239 version was updated. 826 00:39:24.199 --> 00:39:24.400 Yeah. 827 00:39:24.519 --> 00:39:26.079 I feel for folks that have to use it, because 828 00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:27.559 there's folks who have to use it in the two 829 00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:30.039 ways about it, right, But there are I, meantime, living 830 00:39:30.039 --> 00:39:32.880 over here in dot net Nineland, where things are really. 831 00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:35.039 Fast and well real. 832 00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:38.840 Cloud friendly, I still have to write tools that work 833 00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:41.440 with Windows that only work with Windows every once in 834 00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:44.000 a while. And thank god the dotnat framework is there 835 00:39:44.039 --> 00:39:48.960 because damn yeah yeah, send keys. 836 00:39:49.559 --> 00:39:52.639 I love send keys. Yeah, that's amazing what that can do. 837 00:39:53.000 --> 00:39:55.559 I also love how diverse it is. You know, previously, 838 00:39:55.559 --> 00:39:57.559 when I wanted a really little thing, I would have 839 00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.760 to reach for nude, and now I can use minimal 840 00:39:59.800 --> 00:40:00.559 ap eyes for that. 841 00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:03.440 Yeah yep, yeah, And you don't have to open studio. 842 00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:05.159 You really can do what you need to do inside 843 00:40:05.159 --> 00:40:07.159 of code if you want to, like or nope, pad 844 00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:12.320 we've stripped away the battleshipness if you don't value the 845 00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:15.199 battleship like I, studio is my happy place. But maybe 846 00:40:15.199 --> 00:40:17.599 it's just because I'm old. I just feel like that's 847 00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:20.000 the tool i'd want to point a beginner too, because 848 00:40:20.119 --> 00:40:22.760 it has everything in it already. You don't have to 849 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:24.800 roll your own you don't have to figure that stuff out. 850 00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:28.840 The problem is it's intimidating. It's like a cockpit of 851 00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:31.079 a seven forty seven. Inside of there, everything's there, you're 852 00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:32.320 just afraid to touch any of it. 853 00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:34.599 And you don't have to collect all the plugins. With 854 00:40:34.719 --> 00:40:38.320 vs code, it's like it's completely useful by itself. 855 00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:40.039 You have to assemble a deb environment. 856 00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:42.280 Yeah, but the moment that you start doing anything, really 857 00:40:42.360 --> 00:40:44.280 you want a collection of plugins that do all kinds 858 00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:45.079 of wonderful things. 859 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:47.800 It's exactly it. And for a beginner that's a challenge. 860 00:40:47.880 --> 00:40:49.280 Not that we haven't made it easier. There are good 861 00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:50.519 templates and things like that. 862 00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.280 But and vus code's also pretty good at noticing, Hey, 863 00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:55.039 it looks like you're doing this. Is this the plug 864 00:40:55.039 --> 00:40:56.079 in that you want to help you with that? 865 00:40:56.400 --> 00:41:00.280 So it's like Clippy, that's what you're saying. 866 00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.599 This is clippy? Is that a code? And it wants 867 00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:04.119 to help you get a plug in that's going to 868 00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:08.760 make your life better. Weird, it's a weird time to 869 00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:11.400 be a software developer man, and then probably the conversations 870 00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:12.239 of my software. 871 00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:13.719 But I have a digital duck. 872 00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:16.360 It's a good time to be an old timer like 873 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:19.679 me though, because in you guys, because we've lived through 874 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:22.960 the whole progression of it and we felt the pain 875 00:41:23.039 --> 00:41:27.199 and we saw the problem areas, and we feel elated 876 00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:30.679 that I feel like I could do anything right now. 877 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:33.440 It's like there's nothing, there's no challenge. Somebody could say hey, 878 00:41:33.480 --> 00:41:35.880 could you write? And I say, yes, hey could you possibly? 879 00:41:35.960 --> 00:41:36.760 Yes? Yeah? 880 00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:39.760 And I love it too because my stakeholders, my users 881 00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:42.639 are starting to get really creative here they are chatting 882 00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:45.440 with chat GPT and it's generating all kinds of stuff 883 00:41:45.440 --> 00:41:49.280 and they're like and now they're just thinking really big, Yeah, hey, 884 00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:52.840 can you create this thing that automatically does it? And yeah, 885 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:55.199 I love getting to build really cool experiences like that. 886 00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:56.199 It's a lot of fun. 887 00:41:56.360 --> 00:41:59.559 It's a lot of fun. It's like, yeah, it's a 888 00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:00.079 good time. 889 00:42:00.159 --> 00:42:00.840 Yeah, really good time. 890 00:42:00.840 --> 00:42:02.360 It's kind of open their creativity. 891 00:42:02.679 --> 00:42:05.840 So what haven't we talked about that's lighting your fire 892 00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:06.440 with Aspire? 893 00:42:06.519 --> 00:42:09.360 What are the rough bits of Aspire? Like what do 894 00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:11.119 you still have to sit down and fight with to 895 00:42:11.320 --> 00:42:12.000 be successful? 896 00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:15.000 So that Aspire has some conventions that allow you to 897 00:42:15.239 --> 00:42:19.559 automatically rig up dependencies, and sometimes those conventions can be 898 00:42:19.679 --> 00:42:22.239 a little bit weird, especially as I'm starting to talk 899 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:26.000 about deployment. Deployment to Azure container apps is really really 900 00:42:26.039 --> 00:42:29.760 well baked. Deployment to Kubernetes is a little bit less baked, 901 00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:34.079 but still doing pretty good. But when I start getting 902 00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:40.480 outside of just those standard to Azure deployment mechanisms, then 903 00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:43.639 it's like, well, so how do I want to deploy it? 904 00:42:44.280 --> 00:42:48.320 And as I'm deploying, how do I match the conventions 905 00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:52.480 that dot not Aspire Local dashboard was doing for me automatically. 906 00:42:52.880 --> 00:42:56.079 It's like, well, now I need to form this environment 907 00:42:56.199 --> 00:42:59.840 variable using exactly the syntax to be able to get 908 00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:03.559 it to inject the dependencies just so. And so it 909 00:43:03.559 --> 00:43:06.599 feels like deployment is that sharp edge still sure? 910 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:09.719 And what's the strongest deployment path right now? Is it's 911 00:43:10.199 --> 00:43:13.920 containers more than Kubernetes. Is like az your container service, or. 912 00:43:14.039 --> 00:43:17.880 It's Azure Container apps, which is Azure's abstraction over the 913 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:18.840 top of Kupernetes. 914 00:43:18.960 --> 00:43:19.079 Right. 915 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:22.000 You know, apparently Kupernetes yembo files are too complicated, so 916 00:43:22.119 --> 00:43:23.199 let's all invent our own. 917 00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:26.920 Lots of people struggle with them, rob like, let's be fair. 918 00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:30.480 Yeah, And fargate is interesting in this way as well 919 00:43:30.599 --> 00:43:33.480 on AWS, where it's kind of an abstraction over top 920 00:43:33.519 --> 00:43:36.960 of Kupernetes. Right, but as your container apps is Microsoft 921 00:43:37.000 --> 00:43:40.360 substraction over Kupernetes. And so that's their very very well 922 00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:40.920 paved path. 923 00:43:41.039 --> 00:43:43.400 Well, and I do appreciate the idea of, hey, you 924 00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:46.039 probably don't need anything exotic in containers, so let me 925 00:43:46.079 --> 00:43:49.199 just give you a default set of configuration, which if 926 00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:51.360 you end up needing something exotic, you can haul all 927 00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:55.280 this back out known it yourself, but since you probably don't, 928 00:43:55.360 --> 00:43:58.639 you're in the eighty ninety percent case that defaults are 929 00:43:58.639 --> 00:43:59.480 going to be fine for you. 930 00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:03.920 Yeah, And the cool part is it will automatically package 931 00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:08.119 up my dot net projects into containers and automatically push 932 00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:12.719 them to Azure container registry and rig up other best practices, 933 00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:16.880 like it'll put connection strings into key vault and day. 934 00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:19.679 It does all the best practices, which is great, right 935 00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:22.920 for you if you subscribe to that as your deployment mechanism. 936 00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:25.039 I love key vault, Yeah, and it's a good thing 937 00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:27.440 to use, but it's also not trivial steps and it's repetitive. 938 00:44:27.480 --> 00:44:29.239 So the fact that the tool will just do it, 939 00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:32.079 presume you're using qu vault, give me the credentials off 940 00:44:32.079 --> 00:44:33.480 we go is good. 941 00:44:33.639 --> 00:44:33.880 Yeah. 942 00:44:34.039 --> 00:44:36.800 Just again, it's that pitt success thing that Rob mentioned 943 00:44:36.880 --> 00:44:38.840 up front that we've never used that term before, but 944 00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:41.119 you know, I'm going to let you own it today, Rob. 945 00:44:41.239 --> 00:44:44.159 There you Yeah, just doing all the right things. That 946 00:44:44.320 --> 00:44:46.159 to me is what really gets me excited about a 947 00:44:46.199 --> 00:44:49.000 spire is like, the right way to deal with telemetry 948 00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:50.400 is this way, and the right way to deal with 949 00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:52.840 secrets is this way and the right we'll do cashing, 950 00:44:52.840 --> 00:44:54.639 and you still have choices like which cash do you 951 00:44:54.719 --> 00:44:57.360 want to use? You like reddits final, let's use reddis 952 00:44:57.360 --> 00:44:59.159 you want to last a gal to use elastic like 953 00:44:59.280 --> 00:45:00.679 it's just youuration setting. 954 00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:05.960 Are there architectures where aspired doesn't make that much sense. 955 00:45:05.800 --> 00:45:08.440 If you already have a whole lot of opinions about 956 00:45:08.440 --> 00:45:11.360 how you want to do logging, metrics and tracing, you 957 00:45:11.400 --> 00:45:14.159 already have a whole lot of opinions about how you 958 00:45:14.199 --> 00:45:17.440 want to do deployment. If you have a large monolith 959 00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:20.400 that you know really doesn't have a whole lot of 960 00:45:20.599 --> 00:45:23.840 web request dependencies, yeah, like a single server, then it 961 00:45:23.880 --> 00:45:26.760 may not make sense because well, you don't need the 962 00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:29.519 service discovery, you don't have services. You don't need the 963 00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:32.480 configuration or deployment piece because you already have those solved. 964 00:45:32.800 --> 00:45:35.039 So you really don't need a dashboard that helps you 965 00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:37.199 aggregate things because you don't have pieces. 966 00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:39.760 I'm thinking of a Blazer server web app where you 967 00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:43.000 can scale out just by adding more servers and it's 968 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:48.239 completely invisible to you, and you know the servers, the 969 00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:51.039 users have affinity for one server or another. There really 970 00:45:51.079 --> 00:45:55.440 isn't much that you need to do. And like you said, 971 00:45:55.440 --> 00:45:59.079 there's no service layer, so yeah, you know, everything's sort 972 00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.280 of baked into this one thing. I guess that's the 973 00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:02.760 thing I'm thinking about. 974 00:46:03.000 --> 00:46:04.719 Yeah, if you already have a whole lot of opinions, 975 00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:08.440 you've already climbed these hills, then maybe it isn't necessary. 976 00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:10.280 Right, Yeah, And by that token is just more of 977 00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:13.039 a greenfield tool than a brownfield. 978 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:14.840 To I would argue that it's not. It's more of 979 00:46:14.880 --> 00:46:19.239 a web tool than a greenfield or brownfield. I've added 980 00:46:19.280 --> 00:46:21.719 it to a bunch of brownfield projects. I've also used 981 00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:24.599 it in a bunch of greenfield projects, and it's just 982 00:46:24.639 --> 00:46:27.360 really nice to be able to discover all the things 983 00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:30.440 you know. In visual studio, you write click on the 984 00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:33.719 solution manager and you say configure startup projects, and that 985 00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.800 dialogue is nasty. Just having just being able to say 986 00:46:37.800 --> 00:46:40.360 goodbye to that dialogue is worth the weight in gold. 987 00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:41.840 Yeah right, yep, I agree. 988 00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.039 If you use dot net Aspire for nothing else than 989 00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:47.039 being able to launch all your projects simultaneously, it is 990 00:46:47.079 --> 00:46:47.440 worth it. 991 00:46:47.760 --> 00:46:49.599 Yeah, yep, that's interesting, it's good. 992 00:46:49.599 --> 00:46:53.000 It's funny. The plumbing pain. We still have building building 993 00:46:53.079 --> 00:46:54.519 software in studios. 994 00:46:54.079 --> 00:47:00.360 So multiple projects, multiple machines, clients, servers, services. That's where 995 00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:02.760 Aspire is really going to help you. 996 00:47:03.280 --> 00:47:07.199 Yeah, and container orchestration like as part of launching this solution, 997 00:47:07.320 --> 00:47:09.880 I also want to launch all of those containers for 998 00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:12.199 data stores or external services or whatever. 999 00:47:12.280 --> 00:47:13.599 What does it do to Kubernetes. 1000 00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:17.599 The cool part is there's a project called Aspirate Aspirate 1001 00:47:17.800 --> 00:47:20.079 I'm not quite sure how to pronounce it that allows 1002 00:47:20.119 --> 00:47:24.679 you to connect dot Net Aspire deployment into Kubernetes. And 1003 00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:27.639 it has two different modes. The one is it will 1004 00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.880 do the same deployment like you do to Azure container apps, 1005 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:33.920 where it will automatically do all the things. And the 1006 00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:37.519 other mode is where it scaffolds out the Kubernetes bits 1007 00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:40.800 that you need, and it doesn't scaffold out all the dependencies. 1008 00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:43.519 You know, it won't spin up your Rettis cluster or 1009 00:47:43.880 --> 00:47:47.159 your postcrests or sql server database, but it will get 1010 00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:49.159 all of your dot Net projects into place in a 1011 00:47:49.199 --> 00:47:52.480 really elegant way. So I really like to use Aspirate 1012 00:47:52.559 --> 00:47:57.159 to scaffold out my deployments and services, and then I 1013 00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:01.199 already have ingress and secrets and can fig maps associated 1014 00:48:01.239 --> 00:48:03.760 with other places then when I get to Kupernetes, I 1015 00:48:03.800 --> 00:48:06.960 just keep ctl to apply and I've got my all 1016 00:48:06.960 --> 00:48:10.320 of my services that dot net Aspire was orchestrating locally 1017 00:48:10.920 --> 00:48:13.159 orchestrated by Kupernetes in production. 1018 00:48:12.960 --> 00:48:15.480 So it snugges up to Kubernetes nicely when you already 1019 00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:18.679 have that infrastructure. But if you don't have a Kubernantes infrastructure, 1020 00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:22.320 does it make sense to you know, Okay, we're going 1021 00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:25.519 to use Aspire, but we're also going to use Kubernetest. 1022 00:48:25.559 --> 00:48:26.400 Does that make sense? 1023 00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:30.400 They are super correlated. But the cool part is typically 1024 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:33.079 when you're reaching for a whole lot of micro services, 1025 00:48:33.159 --> 00:48:36.320 you know, if you embrace that micro service architecture, then 1026 00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:39.760 you need the ability to host all of those pieces. Sure, 1027 00:48:39.760 --> 00:48:43.079 and if you're starting to look at I'll use Azure 1028 00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:46.719 as my cloud of choice. If you're looking at your cloud, okay, 1029 00:48:46.719 --> 00:48:49.360 and Azure, I could run each of those micro services 1030 00:48:49.400 --> 00:48:52.760 as an Azure web app. But now I have a 1031 00:48:52.800 --> 00:48:55.840 whole lot of web apps, right, it would be easier 1032 00:48:55.880 --> 00:48:57.960 for me to put these in a spot where it 1033 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:00.440 can handle a lot of micro services, right. And so 1034 00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:03.760 that's where Kupernetes was really built to host micro services. 1035 00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:05.480 So dot net aspire. 1036 00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.360 But if you have a container service. 1037 00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:10.880 Yeah, Azu container service is a simpler paradigm there. Yeah, 1038 00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:15.280 but dot net Aspire and Kupernetes then kind of solve 1039 00:49:15.679 --> 00:49:18.159 two sides of the same coin, where dot net Aspire 1040 00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:21.800 solves it really nicely in local development and Kupernetes solves 1041 00:49:21.840 --> 00:49:23.039 it really nicely in production. 1042 00:49:23.280 --> 00:49:24.599 Okay, that's well. 1043 00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:28.599 If you have the amens who want to administer Kubernetes, 1044 00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.679 yes you are not that automated. Folks need to needs 1045 00:49:31.719 --> 00:49:33.719 care and feeding. Like if you're going down that path, 1046 00:49:33.760 --> 00:49:35.920 other way, I stay in the Azure Container apps land. 1047 00:49:36.760 --> 00:49:39.960 But if they need more dynamic control I want They've 1048 00:49:39.960 --> 00:49:42.079 got other ways they want to do things. You got 1049 00:49:42.079 --> 00:49:45.800 somebody who knows their way around Kubernetes in ops bhind Yeah. 1050 00:49:46.000 --> 00:49:46.280 Yeah. 1051 00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:48.880 The people who administer Kupernetes and the people who use 1052 00:49:48.960 --> 00:49:51.079 Kupernetes are usually different people. 1053 00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.840 And you need both, right, Like that's that you get it. 1054 00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:56.199 I get a dev team all jacked up to use Kubernetes, 1055 00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:57.880 and it's like, so you guys going to stay here 1056 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:01.840 and offer rate this because it doesn't just offerate on 1057 00:50:01.880 --> 00:50:03.719 its own, like it needs some care and feeding. 1058 00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:07.360 Azri Kupernetti service does a pretty good job of keeping 1059 00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:11.199 track of it. For example, upgrading Kupernettes versions in Azure 1060 00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.199 is just super simple. I just picked the new version 1061 00:50:14.239 --> 00:50:17.039 from the drop down right. Doing that by hand is 1062 00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:20.800 way hard. So you don't need a dedicated ops team 1063 00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:23.480 to manage Kupernettes in Azure, but it helps. 1064 00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:26.480 If you're using Azure Cubineti service, you're not running your 1065 00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:30.480 own Kubernetess instance switch and you know, folks go down 1066 00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:32.599 that path. I don't know why, but they do. 1067 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:34.679 And there are definitely reasons for that. But if you're 1068 00:50:34.679 --> 00:50:38.840 getting started with Kupernettes, then my first instruction is don't 1069 00:50:38.880 --> 00:50:41.639 install Kupernettes. Go to your cloud and click that create 1070 00:50:41.679 --> 00:50:42.679 a Kupernettes button. 1071 00:50:42.800 --> 00:50:46.199 Yes, the first rule of Kubernetes. Don't install Kubernetes. 1072 00:50:47.400 --> 00:50:49.880 Now, have you done the path of like from Azure 1073 00:50:49.920 --> 00:50:52.719 Container Apps to Azure Community Kuberneti Service. 1074 00:50:53.039 --> 00:50:55.880 I actually got into Kupernettes before Azure Container Apps was 1075 00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:58.239 a thing, right, and so I kind of look at 1076 00:50:58.280 --> 00:51:01.039 Azure Container Apps as like the train wheels to the 1077 00:51:01.079 --> 00:51:03.559 gateway drug to get you to Kupernetes. Yeah, and I'm like, 1078 00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:07.480 I'm already at Kupernettes. I don't really need to step backwards. 1079 00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:09.119 Yeah, I've just heard. 1080 00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:11.519 It's not that easy to move between these things, Like, 1081 00:51:11.559 --> 00:51:14.159 it's not a trivial thing to pick up and shift over. 1082 00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:15.679 There's no butt that says, hey, I want to run 1083 00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:17.199 this in AKS now, please. 1084 00:51:17.119 --> 00:51:20.239 Right, the config files are significantly different. Yeah, if you 1085 00:51:20.320 --> 00:51:23.039 understand Kupernetes, you can look at the Azure Container Apps 1086 00:51:23.079 --> 00:51:26.400 Gammo files and kind of see the Kupernetes bits kind 1087 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:29.480 of starting to come through. But yeah, there's a whole 1088 00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:31.880 lot more concepts in kupernettes that you don't see in 1089 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:36.079 Azure container apps. For example, Kupernettes has a difference between 1090 00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:39.280 services and pods, and Azure Container apps kind of paves 1091 00:51:39.280 --> 00:51:40.599 over that to make them one thing. 1092 00:51:40.760 --> 00:51:41.400 Oh yambo. 1093 00:51:42.599 --> 00:51:45.159 Yeah, yeah, so much hammal, so much ammal. 1094 00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:49.280 All right, there is asure Migrate apparently for doing this. 1095 00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:51.920 But yeah, yeah, it's not impossible. And the cool part 1096 00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:54.880 is that your dot net projects probably don't change at 1097 00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:57.719 all when you move from Azure Container apps to Azrikruperneti service. 1098 00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:01.800 It's just all of the DEVA and ops things under 1099 00:52:01.840 --> 00:52:02.159 the hood. 1100 00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:04.679 Yeah, that's what I figured. It's just you know, we 1101 00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:07.280 also keep offering this whole. You can start here and 1102 00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:10.199 move there. But it's question is how hard is the move. 1103 00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:12.320 And if you're building all these things with Polumi or 1104 00:52:12.400 --> 00:52:16.760 Terraform or even Bicep, then you're rebuilding a. 1105 00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:18.199 Bunch yeah right now. 1106 00:52:18.519 --> 00:52:22.039 And we've done shows before on Bicep and Polumine and 1107 00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:23.679 even Terrorform. 1108 00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:25.079 Do you have a preference? 1109 00:52:25.320 --> 00:52:28.800 I really like Terraform, a project that I'm working on, 1110 00:52:28.880 --> 00:52:33.119 has a whole lot of platform engineering things built up 1111 00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:35.199 in Terraform, and so that was the one that they 1112 00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:38.559 handed us. I like that Terraform now is starting to 1113 00:52:38.599 --> 00:52:42.440 embrace other programming languages. CDK is the project that allows 1114 00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:45.960 you to start writing Terraform in other programming languages like 1115 00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:49.440 c Sharp or JavaScript or other things. And that was 1116 00:52:49.480 --> 00:52:51.400 kind of the big draw of Polumi is to be 1117 00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:55.199 able to get this outside of Terraform into real languages. 1118 00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:55.599 Right. 1119 00:52:55.760 --> 00:52:57.960 Bicep is interesting, but it's Azure only and. 1120 00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:00.199 In the end, it's just generating arm files under the hood. 1121 00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:04.000 And your Terraform or Pulumi files won't go between clouds automatically. 1122 00:53:04.039 --> 00:53:08.679 You know, Amazon's content is different than Azure's content, but 1123 00:53:08.760 --> 00:53:11.360 having a single language across all of the clouds is 1124 00:53:11.440 --> 00:53:14.800 really nice. So yeah, I've really embraced Terrorform. 1125 00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:18.000 Okay, Yeah, and it feels like Polumi pressed Terraform to 1126 00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:19.800 do a better job because Tariform was there first, oh 1127 00:53:19.800 --> 00:53:21.519 of course. And it's never been window centric. I mean, 1128 00:53:21.519 --> 00:53:23.400 the biggest complaint I've ever heard from Terraform from an 1129 00:53:23.440 --> 00:53:27.480 Azure perspective is that they're behind on new Azure features 1130 00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:29.280 that if you're in Terraform, you don't get access those 1131 00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:29.920 feature right away. 1132 00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:32.599 Takes time for their interface to catch up. 1133 00:53:32.760 --> 00:53:35.039 Right, And that's unfortunate. But if you're not on the 1134 00:53:35.039 --> 00:53:38.000 bleeding edge of Azure, then you're not really bothered by that. 1135 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:40.800 Yeah, And there are two different things, right, isn't Polumi 1136 00:53:40.960 --> 00:53:44.320 like a c Sharp based and Terraform is PowerShell based 1137 00:53:44.400 --> 00:53:45.199 or something like that. 1138 00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:49.159 Terraform has HCl files, which if you squint real hard 1139 00:53:49.199 --> 00:53:52.679 you can see JSON or graph ql, and by comparison, 1140 00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:55.320 Polumi is in Typescript or c sharp or you know 1141 00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:57.440 any language right, right, And so at the end of 1142 00:53:57.480 --> 00:54:00.559 the day, you build these files defining all the configuration 1143 00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:02.119 that you want, and so you know, do you have 1144 00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:05.320 semi colons and curly braces. That's kind of the big 1145 00:54:05.320 --> 00:54:07.840 difference here and then you run on firm command line. 1146 00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:10.119 Eight yamil in ein' yamil. That's good enough for me. 1147 00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:12.000 Uh, Robs, the. 1148 00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:15.880 I see more BICEP folks from the men side of 1149 00:54:16.079 --> 00:54:19.679 DevOps more than the dev side of DevOps, where I 1150 00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:22.559 think Pulumi was very much a dev centric DevOps tool, 1151 00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:26.840 And yeah, Terrorform certainly was, but was embraced by Mode. Again, 1152 00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:29.920 Terraform has the avengage of being the oldest and the 1153 00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:32.920 large largest diversity, and it just felt like they fell 1154 00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:36.559 behind and it was innovation spots. But with CDK, Terraform 1155 00:54:36.559 --> 00:54:39.599 seems to be there, like you get your biggest pool. 1156 00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:44.920 You're definitely platform agnostic, like it's it's a really strong choice, and. 1157 00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:47.639 You have access to all the Terraform providers and modules 1158 00:54:47.639 --> 00:54:50.760 that you always had with Polumi. Yeah, you kind of 1159 00:54:50.800 --> 00:54:53.199 had to make sure that they got them too. 1160 00:54:53.400 --> 00:54:55.920 Yeah, you're starting over, rob, Is there anything we missed, 1161 00:54:56.280 --> 00:54:58.519 anything that you want to mention before we go? 1162 00:54:58.760 --> 00:55:00.920 What's really cool at dot net as is that it 1163 00:55:00.960 --> 00:55:03.320 gives you the chance to do as much or as 1164 00:55:03.320 --> 00:55:05.719 little with it as you want. And so whether you're 1165 00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:08.239 coming at it from a greenfield or a brown field, perspective. 1166 00:55:08.559 --> 00:55:11.639 I think dot net Aspire has really intriguing options for you. 1167 00:55:11.960 --> 00:55:14.079 It's definitely worth kicking the tires there. 1168 00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:17.320 Definitely, Rob Richison, thank you very much. It's a pleasure 1169 00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:19.239 catching up with you again on this show. It's been 1170 00:55:19.239 --> 00:55:22.039 far too long and I hope it's not too long 1171 00:55:22.119 --> 00:55:22.960 before the next time. 1172 00:55:23.079 --> 00:55:24.880 Yeah, I can't wait to do it again. It's great 1173 00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:25.480 catching up with. 1174 00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:26.800 Kill you too. Thanks Matt. 1175 00:55:26.840 --> 00:55:28.880 All right, and we'll talk to you later on dot 1176 00:55:28.920 --> 00:55:52.079 net Rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by 1177 00:55:52.159 --> 00:55:56.840 Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, 1178 00:55:56.960 --> 00:56:01.400 video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, 1179 00:56:01.639 --> 00:56:06.440 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 1180 00:56:06.639 --> 00:56:08.800 Visit our website at d O T N E t 1181 00:56:09.000 --> 00:56:13.039 R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, 1182 00:56:13.199 --> 00:56:16.880 mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going 1183 00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:20.280 back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand 1184 00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:22.960 and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. 1185 00:56:23.119 --> 00:56:26.159 They keep us in business. Now go write some code. 1186 00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:30.000 See you next time. You got jam Vans 1187 00:56:32.039 --> 00:56:32.079 And