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<v Speaker 1>With Laurent Seglement from London and Gerard read from Berlin.

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<v Speaker 2>This is redefining energy linutes today on redefind erg. While

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<v Speaker 2>Gerard is the rock star at ted X, I brought

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<v Speaker 2>a special friend Roger Atkins. Roger Atkins is one of

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<v Speaker 2>the top voice for EV's. Is that correct, Roger.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll take that. Yeah, that's fine, thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>We're all sitting on our desk and we'll reports and

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<v Speaker 2>looking at charts and you know, Bloomberg. But at the

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<v Speaker 2>end of the day, the story of the incredible development

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<v Speaker 2>of EV's is a story of people, and Roger, you

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<v Speaker 2>are the ultimate storyteller.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I hope I'm going to live up to that billing.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you. It's something I've been doing sort of for

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<v Speaker 1>twenty years, primarily through LinkedIn. Yeah, it is a story

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<v Speaker 1>of people, You're absolutely right, champions of change, brave people,

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<v Speaker 1>entrepreneurs and often then people that their names just aren't familiar,

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<v Speaker 1>people have never heard of them, but they have been,

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<v Speaker 1>in my opinion, pivotal to where we are today and

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<v Speaker 1>where we're going to be tomorrow.

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<v Speaker 2>I love when we meet and you'll always have those

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<v Speaker 2>great andecdotes, and I mean one of them is probably

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<v Speaker 2>the meeting you at that the Chinese embassy about fifteen

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<v Speaker 2>years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Well it wasn't the Chinese Embassy. What had happened was

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<v Speaker 1>I was working at Modek, which was a company building

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<v Speaker 1>an electric truck back in two thousand and seven in

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<v Speaker 1>the UK. They came to market in two thousand and seven,

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<v Speaker 1>which was exciting, which was amazing. We had no idea

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<v Speaker 1>we were so innovative. A UK company using LFP batteries

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<v Speaker 1>Thundersky cells assembled into a battery pack by a Scottish

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<v Speaker 1>company called Axion. Yeah, that's where the journey began. But

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<v Speaker 1>two thousand and seven is just before the financial crisis,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we found ourselves in great difficulty. The Chinese

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<v Speaker 1>ambassador to the UK, Madam Fu Yin, invited a number

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<v Speaker 1>of industrialists, including Jamie Borick, a founder of Modek. He

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<v Speaker 1>was unavailable to go and have lunch with the other

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<v Speaker 1>people and the ambassador, so I went in his place,

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<v Speaker 1>and to cut a long story short, I got on

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<v Speaker 1>very well with the ambassador because I introduced myself in Chinese.

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<v Speaker 1>I only knew a little bit, but just doing that

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<v Speaker 1>seemed to have an impact. And then she said, mister Akins,

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<v Speaker 1>you should bring your company to China by then. This

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<v Speaker 1>is the autumn of two thousand and nine. She says,

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<v Speaker 1>bring your company to China. We know you're in financial

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<v Speaker 1>difficulty because everybody in the West is. But we have

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<v Speaker 1>grand plans for what we call new energy vehicles. She said,

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<v Speaker 1>you call them electric vehicles. So I said, well, why

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<v Speaker 1>do you call them new energy vehicles? Said, well, because

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately they need to be charged up with renewable energy,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have a big ambition in our country to

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<v Speaker 1>do this. So we'd like you to come bring your

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<v Speaker 1>company to China. We'll help you. You can help us,

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<v Speaker 1>will help you. That's called collaboration. Way above my pay

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<v Speaker 1>grade to agree that kind of thing on the spot.

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<v Speaker 1>But if it had been my company, I would have

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<v Speaker 1>said yes. As it turned out, we didn't. What it

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<v Speaker 1>meant was I got early sight of something which really

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<v Speaker 1>very few people had any sense of at that time,

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<v Speaker 1>that there was going to be a significant move in

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<v Speaker 1>China in regards to the auto industry, energy and batteries.

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<v Speaker 2>For the best of fifteen years, you've met extraordinary people.

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<v Speaker 2>One of them is the CEO of CTV.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Robin Zeng. I found myself at the China Auto

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<v Speaker 1>Show earlier this year, twenty twenty four, and a mutual friend,

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<v Speaker 1>Jack Cheng, who's one of the founders of NEO. I

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<v Speaker 1>was with Jack and we saw Robin, and you know,

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<v Speaker 1>I was a bit in awe Robins in the battery world,

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<v Speaker 1>as you know, a bit of a rock star. So

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<v Speaker 1>I said to Jack, I'd love to meet Robin Zeng.

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<v Speaker 1>So he just took me straight over and introduced me,

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<v Speaker 1>as you know, the electric cowboy. There I am with

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<v Speaker 1>a cowboy hat, the sunglasses, the usual, and we had

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<v Speaker 1>a quick exchange, a little chat. Yeah, hopefully there's a

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<v Speaker 1>good follow up to that. But that was in many ways,

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<v Speaker 1>my passion and real excitement of meeting Robin had been

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<v Speaker 1>fueled even more than than it had for years, to

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<v Speaker 1>be honest, by Bob Gallian. Bob Gallian an American engineer,

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<v Speaker 1>an American automotive legend in some people's minds, because he

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<v Speaker 1>was at GM with the EV one way back and

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<v Speaker 1>had been on an incredible journey, had been the CTO

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<v Speaker 1>for c ATL for a good number of years, I

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<v Speaker 1>think seven or eight years, and was very much pivotal

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<v Speaker 1>in enabling Robin to fast track that company and Bob's

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<v Speaker 1>become a friend. I've met Bob several times, We've talked

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<v Speaker 1>at different events. We met last week, we'll be meeting

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<v Speaker 1>again soon. And I enjoy being in Bob's company because

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<v Speaker 1>he's just a really nice person, but he really understands

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<v Speaker 1>what's going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Roger, among the people you met, you had the encounter

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<v Speaker 2>with Elon Musk So how did you go.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, a brief encounter, but yeah, very exciting. When they

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<v Speaker 1>asked for my name, I stuttered. I don't normally do that,

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<v Speaker 1>but it was the moment I said, Hi, Elon, it's Roger.

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<v Speaker 1>It's because you know in a bit of all of him.

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<v Speaker 1>It was ten years ago. It was at the opening

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<v Speaker 1>of the Tesla store in Westfield, London, and my question

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<v Speaker 1>was out of battery swapping, wireless charging and fast cable

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<v Speaker 1>chap arging Elon, what do you think the journey's going

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<v Speaker 1>to be with those three and will one of them

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<v Speaker 1>ultimately prevail? And Elon said, well, wireless charging maybe not

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<v Speaker 1>because of inefficiency and alignment. Battery swapping, he said, we've

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<v Speaker 1>engineered it into the mode less. You can actually battery

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<v Speaker 1>swap the mode less automatically in a facility. So they

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<v Speaker 1>showed that, but better place had come and gone by

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<v Speaker 1>that time, and I don't think he wasn't a fan,

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<v Speaker 1>but he said, if customers want it, we'd do it.

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<v Speaker 1>So he concluded that ultimately the story would all be

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<v Speaker 1>about cabled fast charging. And of course that's ten years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>If I asked him the same question again, I'm pretty

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<v Speaker 1>certain the answer would be different in one particular area.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, that was my elon encounter. And as a Bersun,

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<v Speaker 1>he was very polite when he used to do his

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<v Speaker 1>town hall call it what you will, going around the

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<v Speaker 1>world meeting and talking to people, he was always super polite.

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<v Speaker 1>The way he answered my question wasn't flippant, it was

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<v Speaker 1>ice and concise he was. I think he was very courteous,

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<v Speaker 1>and I've seen him do that many many times. I

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<v Speaker 1>think behind closed doors he is an absolute ogre, a

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<v Speaker 1>nightmare because he is so fixated with progressing things, and

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<v Speaker 1>for as many aspects that we can all criticize him for,

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<v Speaker 1>I would suggest that the return of rockets back down

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<v Speaker 1>onto the Earth is as significant technically as landing a

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<v Speaker 1>man on the moon was in nineteen sixty nine, because

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<v Speaker 1>the difference there is Okay, we had a number of

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<v Speaker 1>lunar missions, Apollo missions, twelve people were on the Moon,

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<v Speaker 1>but it hasn't happened since because it was technically possible

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<v Speaker 1>but horrendously expensive. The difference and the significance of what

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<v Speaker 1>Elon's done with space travel with rockets is that it

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<v Speaker 1>could be done over and over again. It's one thing

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<v Speaker 1>to solve a problem technically, it's another thing to do

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<v Speaker 1>it at the right cost level. That feeds into much

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<v Speaker 1>of your work, the work of many people listening to this.

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<v Speaker 1>The real test, ironically isn't necessarily the technical challenges to overcome.

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<v Speaker 1>It's the business model. It's the economic proposition.

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<v Speaker 2>When you're in contact with those great CEOs and CEOs,

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<v Speaker 2>do you see a cultural alignment or do you see

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<v Speaker 2>some very different intus between I would say incubans and

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<v Speaker 2>rising styles.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think in Asia, and let's talk specifically China.

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<v Speaker 1>Thinking back to what Madame fu Ying said all those

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<v Speaker 1>years ago. China's got on with tackling climate change as

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<v Speaker 1>best it can. And yes, it has a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>coal fired power stations, but it also has a massively

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<v Speaker 1>significant number of solar farms wind farms, So in many

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<v Speaker 1>ways China has got it and has been more demonstrable

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<v Speaker 1>in doing something about it than the West. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>a big cultural difference. And unfortunately that's all mixed up

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<v Speaker 1>and ming good now with industry with incumbents and disruptors,

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<v Speaker 1>certainly the big challenge on the auto industry for America

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<v Speaker 1>and Europe, it's all become a bit of a conundrum.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm a number of guys, so I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>give you a few numbers. And of course I'm an

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<v Speaker 2>avid reader of Michael Dunn, who is for me the

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<v Speaker 2>best and at EASTA Yeah, ordinary.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'd agree. I'd agree with that.

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<v Speaker 2>China did not export any cars six or seven years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>This year they're going to export six million cars. Seventy

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<v Speaker 2>five percent of them are Ice. Yes, And of course

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<v Speaker 2>the market share of Chinese brands in China, which used

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<v Speaker 2>to be less than thirty percent, now it's seventy percent,

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<v Speaker 2>which means Volkswagen GM had been fisting on China and

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<v Speaker 2>bringing back billions every year. The game is over because

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<v Speaker 2>the China money really helped all the Western auto industry

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<v Speaker 2>for fifteen years to give dividends and probably even the

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<v Speaker 2>thing changes because times were good. You want numbers I'll

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<v Speaker 2>give you numbers. Those six million cars exported. If I

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<v Speaker 2>do a bit of a back of the enveloped calculation,

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<v Speaker 2>that's one hundred and twenty billion dollar. China imports three

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<v Speaker 2>one hundred billion dollars avoid per year. So climate change

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<v Speaker 2>everybody goes to cup every say, oh, climate change is

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<v Speaker 2>so important. But I look at the numbers. China imports

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<v Speaker 2>three hundred billion dollar avoid per year, and that is

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<v Speaker 2>a strong motivation to develop electric Well, of course it.

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<v Speaker 1>Is, and an energy security is absolutely at the front

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<v Speaker 1>of this. If you look at the origin, go back

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<v Speaker 1>to people, go back to you know, who are the

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<v Speaker 1>people architects of this. You look at the Audi engineer.

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<v Speaker 1>There's the irony Chinese guy who worked for Audi for

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<v Speaker 1>many years, then becomes the architect of the new energy

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<v Speaker 1>revolution in China. It comes back, becomes the science minister

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking about gang and effectively says we can leap

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<v Speaker 1>frog the West. We'll never catch up with combustion engines,

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<v Speaker 1>but we can leap frog them with electric vehicle technology.

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<v Speaker 1>And then they look at what happened in America. This

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<v Speaker 1>is the irony they've really learnt from. People will call

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<v Speaker 1>it copying, but they've learned from America in what carb

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<v Speaker 1>did with the challenge of air quality, particularly in Los

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<v Speaker 1>Angeles many years ago. They saw the structure of how

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<v Speaker 1>they managed that. They also saw how the Japanese developed

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<v Speaker 1>a battery capability to power up the consumer electronics industry,

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<v Speaker 1>and they coupled those two things together brilliantly so. But

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<v Speaker 1>they didn't do it at night. They didn't do it

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<v Speaker 1>with the curtains drawn. They did it with everybody watching.

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<v Speaker 1>So your point a moment ago about the money that's

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<v Speaker 1>been made by Western OEMs in China for many, many years,

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<v Speaker 1>ten fifteen, almost twenty years. To give it a biblical analogy,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the seven years of good harvest and now the

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<v Speaker 1>challenge in the transition to manage the transition to full electrification.

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<v Speaker 1>But what have they done with that money? Did they

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<v Speaker 1>spend that money on large scale and scoping investing in

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<v Speaker 1>R and D terms, Yes, some of it, but certainly

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<v Speaker 1>not enough. And they're now winging that the Chinese are

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<v Speaker 1>coming in with all of this, when we had every opportunity,

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<v Speaker 1>year after year after year to actually either keep apace

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<v Speaker 1>with China or maybe keep ahead of China, but we

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<v Speaker 1>chose not to why, because, of course, it's if it

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<v Speaker 1>ain't broke, don't fix it philosophy, And for shareholders, for

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<v Speaker 1>supervisory boards, for all the other people, it was why

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<v Speaker 1>do we need to change if we're making money hand

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<v Speaker 1>over fists selling the internal combustion proposition, And just as

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<v Speaker 1>a quick tangent on that, only recently a seer put

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<v Speaker 1>out a notification saying, look at the numbers, look at

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<v Speaker 1>the trends, look at what the consumer actually wants. They

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<v Speaker 1>don't seem to want ev and there's an increasing negative

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<v Speaker 1>narrative which is fueled by all sorts of people for

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<v Speaker 1>all sorts of vested interest reasons. That yeah, is kicked

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<v Speaker 1>the cavern down the road, and it's being at That

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<v Speaker 1>narrative is being engineered, which is why I feel a

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<v Speaker 1>sense of responsibility to say what I see, to be

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<v Speaker 1>independent and to use the forty years I've had in

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<v Speaker 1>the auto industry to say it as I see it.

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<v Speaker 1>And there are some things I'm wrong about. I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>an engineer, I'm not a chemist. I'm not particularly academic,

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<v Speaker 1>to be frank, going back to your point, it's getting

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<v Speaker 1>to know.

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<v Speaker 2>People talk about those people.

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<v Speaker 1>I bumped into. Leis shue Fu were in two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and five or six when I worked at London Taxis

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<v Speaker 1>And look at where Geelie's gone on that journey. It's

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<v Speaker 1>extraordinary to watch how people have progressed the ten years

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<v Speaker 1>I've done my own thing. Simon Moore's the guy that

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<v Speaker 1>bounded Benchmark with an amazing team. I met Simon five

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, or and his address to the US Senate

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<v Speaker 1>arg know that you know that moment we are in

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<v Speaker 1>the midst of a global battery arms ratio which the

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<v Speaker 1>United States is a bystander. Oh my god, that's like

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<v Speaker 1>a movie sequence. Now that, now, through Simon and all

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<v Speaker 1>of the people I've met as a consequence, has really

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<v Speaker 1>enriched my storytelling. Let me make a distinction by the way,

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<v Speaker 1>I've been on LinkedIn for twenty years, almost since it started.

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<v Speaker 1>I pride myself on being a storyteller, not an influencer.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to take paid for content and put

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<v Speaker 1>it in front of people and suggest that this is good.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not what I am. I actually do get paid

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<v Speaker 1>to occasionally show up on stage, which I absolutely love

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<v Speaker 1>because I shouldn't tell anyone this, but you know I

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<v Speaker 1>do it for nothing because in the dim and distant past.

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<v Speaker 1>I was in the music business and to be frank,

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<v Speaker 1>I'd rather be a rock star now. But I suppose

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<v Speaker 1>you are.

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<v Speaker 2>A rock star. Roger, Well, who are people recognize you

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<v Speaker 2>when you go from Australia to Canada to Europe. When

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<v Speaker 2>you show up, people know who you are. I know

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<v Speaker 2>you're very umber, but I can take you. You say you're

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<v Speaker 2>one of the voices, but you're one of sort of

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<v Speaker 2>the faces of the Ivy Revolution and probably in China

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<v Speaker 2>now it's mainstream. But you know, in the old world,

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<v Speaker 2>we're still the mavericks. We're still the one carrying the

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<v Speaker 2>positive aspect, which is a positive of tech, energy, security,

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<v Speaker 2>the environment. Now we need to make sure the jobs

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<v Speaker 2>stay here.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, lour, I'm completely with you. I'm British, I'm European,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a citizen of the world. So that's the lens

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<v Speaker 1>through which I see things. And you mentioned being recognized.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, I got an ego like everybody else, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm flattered by that fact. But I have to when

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<v Speaker 1>I can feel that or see that, use that responsibly.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll give you a quick anecdote when I went to

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<v Speaker 1>China Evy one hundred. This is a forum in China

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<v Speaker 1>that brings together politicians, investors, entrepreneurs, et cetera. It's been

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<v Speaker 1>running since twenty fifteen, I think it is, and essentially

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<v Speaker 1>it gets stuff done because it's annual and people say

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<v Speaker 1>what did we say we're going to do, and there's

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit of reconciliation, then they plan what they're

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<v Speaker 1>going to do next. It's a brilliant forum. The first

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<v Speaker 1>one I went to as part of a British trade delegation,

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<v Speaker 1>somebody that I was connected to in China and LinkedIn

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<v Speaker 1>met me and said, oh, we're very pleased you'll hear

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<v Speaker 1>a few people know what you do. And I was

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<v Speaker 1>sort of a bit surprised, not quite sure how to

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<v Speaker 1>take that, but then she said who would you like

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<v Speaker 1>to meet, and I almost jokingly said, well, it would

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<v Speaker 1>be good to meet Chairman Wang Chang Fu byd the

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<v Speaker 1>guy over there, Lee Bin or William Lee had just

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<v Speaker 1>set up next TV, which is NEO. So she took

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<v Speaker 1>me to the front of the hall and introduced me

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<v Speaker 1>to Chairman Wang Chang Fu and said, Roger is on LinkedIn.

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<v Speaker 1>He talks about electric vehicles. He has broad outlook at

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<v Speaker 1>a pragmatic approach. You should say hello, and then through

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of an aturb we had a chat. Same

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<v Speaker 1>with Lee Bin. So yes, it's nice to have that recognition,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's only really good if you can then put

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<v Speaker 1>it to good use. It's a responsibility. I'll truly take

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<v Speaker 1>it as a responsibility to use those connections, to use

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<v Speaker 1>that access to get to talk to people and ask

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<v Speaker 1>them the question that I think someone on LinkedIn. Whenever

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<v Speaker 1>I write, I write in the first person. So if

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<v Speaker 1>I'm posting on LinkedIn, I'm talking to you rather than

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<v Speaker 1>the audience, because so that's what I try to do.

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<v Speaker 1>So thank you for what you've said. But it's equally

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<v Speaker 1>a big responsibility to be frank.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Roger, it was a very nice conversation, and I

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<v Speaker 2>really would like to say to all our listeners, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure a lot of them already your followers to

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<v Speaker 2>follow Roger on LinkedIn, but also go to all of

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<v Speaker 2>your shows where you are with your your moor, your candor,

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<v Speaker 2>but also your integrity promoting ev because that's the world

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<v Speaker 2>of the future. This clear.

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<v Speaker 1>We've got to explain it to people in a fashion

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<v Speaker 1>that helps them take the journey. A bit of pushing

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<v Speaker 1>and shoving now and then, for sure, but mostly it

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<v Speaker 1>should be cajoling, informing, educating, and yeah, maybe even entertaining. Entertaining.

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<v Speaker 1>Now and then, why not, can I just say, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>so flattered to be on your show, because, like Michael

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<v Speaker 1>Dunn's podcast, like stuff that I see from people like

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<v Speaker 1>Bill Russo and Robert Llewellen are fully charged actively listen

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<v Speaker 1>to these, I listen and learn to a lot. I've

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<v Speaker 1>never read as much in my life as I do

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<v Speaker 1>these days. I've never listened as much as I do

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<v Speaker 1>these days. So I'm an unashamed plagiarist. And I then

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<v Speaker 1>try and take all of that, shake it down into

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<v Speaker 1>a bit of a thought process, a bit of a storyline,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's what I pop up on LinkedIn now and then,

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<v Speaker 1>thank you Roger, thank you Laurel, thank you for listening

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<v Speaker 1>to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to read the show. Subscribe

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<v Speaker 1>on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or the platform of your choice.