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Speaker 1: I love the way you've arrange your camera so we

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see the enormous pile of books behind you it.

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Speaker 2: I've even read some of them, but they look good.

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Speaker 1: Ask not what your country can do for you, Ask

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what you can do for your country.

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Speaker 2: Mister gorbachaw tear down this wall.

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Speaker 1: It's the Ricochet Podcast with myself, James Lanvic and Cherlci

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that we cooked. We're going to talk to John you

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about seven and thirty two legal questions. So a lot

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was a podcast.

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Speaker 3: Well, look, a staffer wasn't responsible, and look, I take

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full responsibility. I built the I built the group to

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My job is to make sure everything's coordinated. Of course

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I didn't see this loser in the group. It looked

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like someone else. Now whether he did it deliberately or

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it happened in some other technical means something we're trying

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to figure out.

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Speaker 2: Senator, I don't want to get into this.

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Speaker 3: Man, Man, were you on You're not going to be

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willing to conversation, So you're not are you denying?

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Speaker 1: Matt?

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Speaker 2: Will you answer my question? Ma'am?

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Speaker 1: Welcome everybody. This is the Ricochet Podcast, number seven hundred

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and thirty four. I'm James Lylex and cloudy, overcast, but

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unusually warm Minnesota seventy two degrees today, snow tomorrow. And

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I'm joined by cheneral Cook in the Florida, the flattest

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state in the nation, and John You, who I presume

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is in California, where everything interesting, baden, or good is happening. Hi, welcome, gentlemen.

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Here is my Here's where I stand. Signal the thing,

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the signal, the reporter, all the brew haha. I find

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myself having the same reaction in nearly every single story

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that comes out today. One, I don't believe most of

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what the mainstream media says about it and frames it.

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If the parties were reversed, the story would be Republicans pounce,

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Republicans seizing on signal story. Two. While the administration and

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its defenders may come back with a reasonable explanation, I

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pretty much assume that seventeen percent of that is missing

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the point or missing critical information. And three, I know

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that if I get up to speed on it right away,

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it doesn't matter because tomorrow Rfka Junior is going to

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bad and Zagnut candy bars in airport grocery in airport stores.

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I mean, it's just one after the other. I mean,

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are we talking about all the Biden pardons being overturned? No,

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that was that was you know, like forty years ago.

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Am I wrong? Or is this a signal story? Does

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this one actually have more legs in a centipede?

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Speaker 4: I think it has legs because the administration didn't just say, okay,

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Lesson learned, we won't do that again. But our attack

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was really successful. You should like that. Joe Biden was weak.

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Next question, The problem is they're trying to win this.

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They can't win it because they did it. It was embarrassing.

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They did accidentally invite Jeffrey Goldberg to be on the chain.

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They weren't supposed to be doing it. They simultaneously said

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that it happened and that it's a hoax, that it's

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a problem, and that it's not because Jeffrey Goldberg is annoying,

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which is and I think it's just tactical mistake. I

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think it's really bad. But I also think the public

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doesn't care. And I think if they had maneuvered themselves

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into a position in which it looked like the press

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was freaking out, then they could have said, you know,

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we have a really successful foreign policy initiative. We make

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one mistake along the way, and look at what the

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New York Times says. But instead they're going to spend

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a week litigating this because they just can't ever admit

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that they screwed up.

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Speaker 1: John, Welcome, Nice to have you back. What say you, Oh, thanks,

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great to be back, guys. I live in the land

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of California abundance.

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Speaker 2: Have you heard of this new political theory of the

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left that's come from my state, that we're so well

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governed here, we're gonna make the lost of the country

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like California.

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, abundance is actually sort of a buzzworthy theory.

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I haven't necessarily put it with the left yet. Are

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they trying to hijacket for me from the right?

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Speaker 2: James, you're trapped in your little maga media universe. This

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is the big thing emerging on the left. Charlie Suer

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knows a little bit about this. This is the This

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is their new political theory about how they're going to

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win it all back. They made a mistake for being

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against economic growth, for being in favor excessive regulation, And

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what they're going to do is they're going to take

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the lessons of California, which are about how government creates

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abundance and bring it to the rest of the country.

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But before I get to this on signal, the signal question. Look,

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I worked in the government. I worked on classified information.

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I mean to me, put aside the media store and

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whether Jeffrey Goldberg's on this or not. You know, cabinet

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officers involved in planning the details of an attack should

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not be talking about it on unsecured systems. I can't.

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I'm certain that the Chinese and Russians were able to

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read this while this was going on, not just because

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they were using signal, but they were using their own

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personal phones. I guess right. These are not secure government phones,

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and these are not Oh, should we do a B

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or C. These You've seen the You've seen the texts.

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They're detailed times of the tax and what kinds of

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weapons are going to be used, who they're trying to hit.

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I think there's a terrible, terrible breach of security. So

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put aside the short term political who's going to win

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or lose? I think this is identifies a long term

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problem that the Trump administration and our government have to

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fix or something worse is going to happen.

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Speaker 1: Right, and for the people, say who were saying, you know,

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all right, you megotypes. You know you're the ones who

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are all about her private server and her emails. Well,

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you know it's entirely possible to be unhappy with both.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, she's so annoying with this, James. Every time someone

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else does a bad thing, Hillary Clinton says, I too

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did a bad thing. Yes, as if she's now inoculated

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against the child. She has a piece in the New

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York Times today that I actually did. When I read it,

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I think was a parody that had been created by AI,

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where she says, can you believe it?

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Speaker 2: Can I believe what?

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Speaker 4: That? You are awful and did awful things for years

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and now someone else has done something bad. Yes, I

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can't believe that she thinks this somehow vindicates her. It's aw.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Well, I too would want to remain relevant and

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the rest of it. And I think it is possible

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to hold many ideas about many things in one's head.

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But I'm still trying to get My brain is still

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reeling from the California abundance bit. We can either talk

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about signal again. I think we said what needs to

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be said. Let's not have this happen again, and let's

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dispatch with the hoo Thies. Thank you very much. But John,

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going back to abundance, explain this in a little bit

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greater detail, because, as I've said, I've heard people on

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the right use the term and say that, you know,

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the solution to a better America, more prosperous America, is

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to get rid of the scarcity end of the world,

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global warming, climate change sort of. You know, nineteen seventies

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feel where we've just exhausted everything and we're just going

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to be the world is running down and there's nothing

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to be found. And then of course, you know, we

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turn around and find fifteen trillion gallons of oil here

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and a billion pounds of lithium there. I mean, in

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America is astonishing place, and that we should embrace growth

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and embrace all of these things and tell the nimbi's

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to go pound sand and also take a lot of

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sand out so we can use it for fracking, etc. Etc.

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But it seems now that California progressives are believing that

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they can use the example of California to produce abundance,

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and we're not just talking about the increased revenue of

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U haul going from there to Austin. Explain this a

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little bit more so.

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Speaker 2: The New York Times columnist and pundit who I'm sure

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you'll invite on the show to browbeat Ezra Cline, has

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a new book out, and he's going around the country.

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He's being speaking to packed audiences. There's all kinds of

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media about this, and the Times and the post in

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the Journal about Their argument is after their loss, they're

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proposing a new platform for the Democratic Party progressives, which

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is they have to be pro abundance. That they've been

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anti growth and excessively rightlating and all that their pro

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government regulation approach to life has actually made the social

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problems the left care is about worse. So they say

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the big obvious problem is homelessness. They recognize now that

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all these environmental reviews, all their zoning restrictions, all their

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government planning bodies have made it impossible in California to

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build any new housing. So they actually say California is

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an example now because you now have pistoff cities like

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my city at Berkeley. Berkeley actually got rid of zoning

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entirely so that I'm allowed to I get tear down

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my old house and put up an apartment building there

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if I wanted to. So this is the interesting thing

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is you have these people on the left saying, we

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have been too favorable to government. We have to pull

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the government back and we have to figure out a

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way to let the market and the economy solve our problems.

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The other two problems so that they point to not

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great examples for them. So the other one they point

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to is how can we can't build a high speed

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rail from La to San Francisco when they can build

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them all in China in the course of a few years.

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And then the other example they have is, oh, nuclear power.

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Suddenly they're in favor of nuclear power because they said,

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it's so hard to get permits to build any kind

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of infrastructure in the country, to build the energrey grid,

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to develop non carbon fossil non carbon energy sources. We

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ought to fix that too.

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Speaker 1: Well, does anybody believe them, Charles No, No.

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Speaker 4: I just think he's a fraud. I've always thought he's

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a fraud. The arguments that he is making are partially correct,

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and usually I would be pleased by that because I

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think that Joanah Goldberg is correct when he says that

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you win in politics by getting the other side to

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say you're right, not by fighting them on everything forever,

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but by convincing them that even if they don't like it,

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they have to accept and pretend even that your ideas

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are superior. That's what happened to some extent during the

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Reagan administration and into the nineteen nineties. But I don't

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believe this. I don't believe it because I don't see

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any contrition involved. I see no acknowledgment that these ideas

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are effectively Republican ideas from the Contract with America of

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nineteen ninety four, especially on regulation, and they're from supply

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side economics. So what he's ended up doing is while

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attacking the right, which has now decided it's for scarcity,

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it's another line he's selling. He is arguing for the

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things that say National Review has been arguing for for

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seventy years, as if they're his idea, and then pulling

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them back a little bit from where they need to

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be and presuming that they ought to be superintended by

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him and his friends and his preferred government officials. It's

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just annoying. And I think that the second that the

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Democrats get back into power, which they will, the right

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is insane to think that there is some generational shift

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at play and the Left is vanquished forever, then all

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of the special interest groups and rules and legal avenue

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is that he's currently decrying will become useful to him again,

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because that's how democrats get and hold powers, by sending

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out checks to people who they like.

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Speaker 1: Right. I mean, if it results in a party that

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at its core believes a wholly new, different set of

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ideas that will produce a more prosperous America, I'm not

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going to complain. And it seems to me that some

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sort of repudiation of your priors is in order here,

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some sort of acknowledgment that the fundamental ideas that undergird

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your entire party and movement were in error, That the

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things that supposedly were sold as wise, technocratic, little you know,

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gestures of a helping hand, we're not that in the beginning,

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and turned into two hands clenched around your windpipe. In

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many of these instances, you can't love the state and

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worship its power and then just say, oh, but that

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thing that is fundamental to us, never mind that we're

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now in favor of putting the Wiathan back in the

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cage and doing these other sweet things. I mean, if

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you believe in these things, you'd be conservatives. You wouldn't

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be liberals unless they can find with someway. I mean

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what you said there, John, about homelessness. Yes, indeed, California,

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the major cities could benefit by some sort of by

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additional housing. From what I understand knew, some appropriated millions

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of dollars, which has resulted in nothing. They're supposed to

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have these little tiny houses where that people could go.

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Speaker 2: Billions billions. We don't do anything in the millions here, James, billions.

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Speaker 1: Billions, and none of it resulted in anything. I mean,

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it resulted in money going to NGOs, which would then

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go to another NGO, which would then go to a study,

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which would then go to a pot program. I get

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that if that's the intention of all the spending, and

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then it was successful. But a lot of the reason

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that you have the homelessness on the streets that you

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have is not because of a lack necessarily of housing,

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but because a nexus of drug abuse, mental illness caused

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by drug abuse in many instances, and just sort of

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a dispositional disinclination to go inside and live there. You

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have to have a series of draconians. So what would

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strike people is draconian social policies to accompany that. That

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would result in more criminalization of drugs, which would result

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in more people in prison, which would result in all

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the things that they don't like to do because they

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don't want to be mean to the people are homeless,

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because they're just like you and me. So I mean

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a lot of these things seem like half measures. And

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while Charles is correct to point out that they'll probably

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changing their tune once they get in power, the problem

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isn't that they've spent all this money on lightrail that

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goes nowhere. The problem is is that they haven't done

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the light rail thing quick enough. Right. It's not as

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if the train to nowhere isn't. They don't say it's unnecessary.

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They just say, well, we need to build national grids

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of high speed rail. We just need to be able

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to do it like China. And again I'm questioning it priors.

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We don't need a national passenger grid of high speed rail.

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And I think that there are a lot of people

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on their side who would would the blood would drain

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from their face if you said that, because you know

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what's the alternative, Well, the alternative is planes. What's the

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matter with planes? Will planes cause global warming? They have

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to give up global warming, they have to give up

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their fictions about the homelessness. They have to give up

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a lot of things in order to make this stick

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and be believable, I think, in order to be intellectually,

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you know, consistent. Am I expecting too much?

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Speaker 2: I think it's just another version of the Democrats missing Obama.

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This is exactly what Obama promised, right, I'm going to

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have more more competent and more competent effective government. But

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in reality, what did he do? He advanced their high

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church ideology, which consists of bending the knee to diversity

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and worshiping the environment above it everything else. And so, yeah,

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you can make that government work better, as you say, James,

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but if the goals of what you're using the government

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for are still flawed and mistaken, could make things worse.

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Maybe it's better to have a sluggish, dysfunctional government as

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long as they if they're trying to use it for

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the raw.

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Speaker 1: Purposes one can hope, Charles anything on that. Before we

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gallivant to another topic.

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Speaker 4: I would just add that I think for an awful

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lot of people who are involved in the process. The

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purpose of the California High Speed Rail project is not

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to build California high speed rail. It's to funnel money

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around to unions and environmental groups and let them all

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fights it out.

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Speaker 1: They love that, I know, but you would think at

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least that at some point in the process somebody would say,

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while we're doing all of this funneling and slashing and

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handing out and the rest of it, oughtn't we build

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the train. I mean, good old American graft in the

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past would at least result in a train we're not

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getting on. And of course the people who talk but

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the Chinese version forget how much money they spent on it,

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and how much debt there is built into the system,

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and how it's I mean, it's just it's it's not

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a good thing for them. It just doesn't. Trains really,

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I mean, I love them. I love to go to

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Europe and right around and zip on the trains. I

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really do. Whenever I go to England Anglia XP, you know,

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mid Anglia, whatever the hell it is to get up

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to Suffolk and it's two hours. But you know, I

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take a look at the map of England and I

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super impose it over Minnesota, and it's about the same,

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and I think, yeah, I could have driven this, I

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could have anyway. So on to legal things, because we've

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got a legal expert here, John. The deportations or the

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attempted deportations, or the beginning of the deportation efforts have

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got people convinced that the Black Mariahs are pulling up

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and throwing people on the back for no particular cause,

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and there's no due process. This is all wrong, it's

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anti constitutional. Let's have some clarity about this, because I'm

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sure it differs from case to case. What we're talking

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about here. Tell us your legal perspective on the deportation

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of the of the students of the student visa people.

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Speaker 2: Well, you already have a legal expert. You've got Charlie

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on the podcast. I'm just here for the comic relief,

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my friend. I mean, Charlie's a common law English trained

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lawyer of my friend. We don't need any of our

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American innovations. They got things pretty well right. This is

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a this is a hard case. You know. This is

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of course being raised by the deportation of aliens students

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who've been participating in these pro Palestinian protests on college campuses.

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You know that one of the high profile cases is

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fellow Khalil, who's a Columbia graduate now who has a

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green card. He's a permanent resident alien, and he was

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grabbed by the government and in the process of being

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removed from the country. So this is a This is

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a hard case because if he were American citizen, there

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would be no doubt he has a free First Amendment defense.

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He could say, look, I'm being punished for my views.

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All I was doing was I was showing up at

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these protests and saying things. I have a right to

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protest is recognized by the Supreme Court. The problem is,

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this is a really hard part of it is aliens

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may not have exactly the same rights as citizens, even

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the ones in the country. For example, the government is

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allowed to stop people from coming into the country based

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on their beliefs. The government is allowed to say we

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don't want someone to come into the country and get

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a visa because we think they're harmful to our national

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security and foreign policy. And this is not just the Constitution.

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This Congress has written this in a statute. And one

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example I like to give is I haven't seen it

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mentioned in the media. But in the nineteen eighties, I

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believe the Reagan administration refused to let Yasser Effact come

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into the country even though who is coming to speak

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at the UN because we said he's a terrorist. So

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the government's allowed. And then the government, under this same law,

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under the Immigration Act, is allowed to kick people out

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of the country who are aliens who are thought to

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be harmful to our national security and foreign policy. And

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there were cases from the nineteen fifties and early sixties

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where the government kicked out Communists who had gotten into

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the country. So I personally would prefer not to see

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the government kick out people just for showing up for protests.

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I think the more trustworthy standard that will apply to

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citizens as everyone else is there's a difference between conduct

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and speech. If Khalil, if some of these other students

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were doing more than just protesting, if they were engaged

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in organizing efforts to target and harass Jewish students, if

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they're engaged in moving money around, if they were essentially

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aspiring to hurt the civil rights of Jewish, to commit violence,

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to take over buildings. To me, that's not just speech,

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that's conduct, and I think the government can punish you

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for that. So I think that's a fine line. I

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think that's the one we should try to observe, rather

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than just kicking people out of the country if they're

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only just engaged in speaking.

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Speaker 4: Charles, I agree with that. The law that Senator now, well,

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I'm still in that mood that Secretary of State Rubio

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Adam rated in that clip that went viral with his

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usual eloquence, I am told is a real law, and

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that will probably prevail in court and maybe non justicable. Nevertheless,

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but it does make me slightly nervous for the reasons

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that John outlines. I mean, I would have no problem

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whatsoever with, either through an administrative rule or through Congress

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a set of stipulations being added to f visas and

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j visas. For example, that said, ahead of time, you

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can go into America and you can do your cultural exchange,

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or you can do your student activities. But if you

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interrupt speakers, if you occupy buildings, if you prevent others

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from learning, if you are credibly accused of interfering with

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civil rights, then you're out. That's fine. And of course

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those people don't have the same rights as a Green

394
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card holder, which is a US person or a citizen.

395
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But when we are talking about viewpoint, I think that

396
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goes a little bit far for a couple of reasons.

397
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First off, I look back to when I was on

398
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a j visa. I was pretty brutally critical of Barack

399
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Obama's foreign policy. I also was a Second Amendment advocate

400
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who could credibly at points have been accused of sedition

401
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because I said that I think the Second Amendment protects

402
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the right of the people to overthrow the government if

403
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it becomes.

404
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Speaker 2: Why did you say that in the past tense?

405
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Speaker 4: No, I'm right, but I'm protected now. So I wonder

406
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could Barack Obama have had me deported perhaps. So that's

407
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the first thing is I look back and I think

408
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if it's purely viewpoint that we're dealing with, then it

409
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seems a bit of a slippery slope. The second reason

410
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is that I just think that on the merits, the

411
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idea that somebody who writes in ourp head, which is

412
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one of the cases, or even this Khalil figure, is

413
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practically damaging the foreign policy interest of the United States

414
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is just silly. I mean, if you go back to,

415
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for example, the case of Schenk in nineteen nineteen, which

416
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is where the fire and a crowded theater line comes from.

417
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It's since been overturned, really by Brandenburg. But if you

418
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,240
go back to that case at stake in that case

419
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was a Jewish Russian immigrant who handed out leaflets in Yiddish,

420
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and the Supreme Court said, well, this is this is

421
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meaningfully hampering the US government's capacity to fight World War One.

422
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And I think that's hyperbol that's true. So I look

423
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at these guys and although I load them, and I'd

424
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love to tighten up the system that brought them here

425
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in the first place, or change the promises that they're

426
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obliged to make before they come in, so then you

427
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can deport them for violating that promise. I'm just not

428
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persuaded that that law, even if it prevails, which you

429
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,200
probably would legally, is a good one.

430
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Speaker 1: I agree with the actions not speech, because you're deporting

431
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somebody for that. I mean, the definition of what is

432
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is not can be wrong, think can be rather elastic

433
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depending on whether or not you want to reward this

434
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and punish this. So I agree with that. I'm just

435
00:23:41,079 --> 00:23:44,119
telling one of the reasons that I think that something

436
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,799
inside of me says I'm less concerned about this than

437
00:23:46,839 --> 00:23:49,519
perhaps that I should be. Is the idea of going

438
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to another country, being let into another country, and then

439
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,119
going to a rally and shutting down anybody who disagreed

440
00:23:58,319 --> 00:24:01,599
seems like a colossal active in gratitude if nothing else.

441
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:06,200
I mean, I just don't get that part. But anyway,

442
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,799
I suppose if you regard yourself as a member of

443
00:24:08,839 --> 00:24:12,759
a transnational group of enlightened people who are world citizens,

444
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that the idea of contravening the order of the country

445
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that lets you in as irrelevant. What matters is doing

446
00:24:18,279 --> 00:24:20,960
the right thing on every possible stage. But I think

447
00:24:21,039 --> 00:24:24,440
Charlie's correct, and I think that's that. But that brings

448
00:24:24,519 --> 00:24:26,960
us to the Alien and Enemies Act? Are we John

449
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,680
applying this correctly? The administration's justification has been that trend

450
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which has replaced M thirteen as MX thirteen ORM three

451
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or am I Mississippi Mississippi thirteen right, which is a

452
00:24:42,279 --> 00:24:47,079
congressional district. It's replaced MS thirteen as the foreign violent,

453
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:51,599
hyperviolent drug dealing bugaboo. And they're bad, they're bad guys.

454
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They ought not to be here. And the administration has

455
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said that actually the reason that the aliens and Enemies

456
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Act applies. Is because the government of Madora sent them

457
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:05,519
here to cause mischief and mayhem? Is that a tenuous

458
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,759
assertion justification? Does it really matter? Does the law apply?

459
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Do we really care? Because what matters is seeing these

460
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guys having their head shaved and stuck in an al

461
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Salbado prison.

462
00:25:14,799 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 2: This is again a tough question. I think you can

463
00:25:17,519 --> 00:25:20,759
think about the tough questions here. John. You think about

464
00:25:20,799 --> 00:25:24,039
the controversy in two ways. One is just based on

465
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the facts. If you were deciding, do you think the

466
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,559
Alien Enemies Act applies? And then two, who in the

467
00:25:29,599 --> 00:25:32,839
government is the right person to make the decision? So

468
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this is a law right pass in seventeen ninety eight.

469
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It was passed to address the quasi war with France.

470
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You know, I thought we were on the right path

471
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back then. We should have just continued the War of

472
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France and finished them off, but we stopped, and I

473
00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:50,519
think we could have gotten Great Britain on with us

474
00:25:51,039 --> 00:25:53,079
at that time, fixed a lot of future problems in

475
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,039
world history. So the Alien Enemies Act is very interesting.

476
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,839
It's only been used three times in American history, War

477
00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:02,839
eighteen twelve, World War One, and World War two, and

478
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,759
it says during a period of a declared war or

479
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:08,640
and this is the part of the statute that's never

480
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,720
been used till now, or during an evasion or predatory incursion.

481
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:15,839
You got to love the way people wrote laws in

482
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,839
the eighteenth century, right, No, you know, going across the border.

483
00:26:19,839 --> 00:26:25,759
I love that predatory incursion by a hostile nation or government.

484
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:31,759
If that occurs, then the president is allowed to kick

485
00:26:31,759 --> 00:26:34,599
out of the first not just detain and then kick

486
00:26:34,599 --> 00:26:38,839
out of the country any citizen or native of that country,

487
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,960
of that hostile nation or government. So people don't know this,

488
00:26:43,039 --> 00:26:46,039
but for example, in World War Two, Germans and Italian

489
00:26:46,079 --> 00:26:49,920
citizens were rounded up all throughout the United States, actually

490
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,720
all throughout the western hemisphere under this law. And it's

491
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,839
actually part of a normal warpower. Right. If you go

492
00:26:56,839 --> 00:26:59,960
to war with another country, you assume all the citizen

493
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,279
of that country are now your enemy. And it's a

494
00:27:02,319 --> 00:27:04,319
classic part of war all the way back to the

495
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,839
eighteenth century to catch and hold the members of the

496
00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:14,119
people you're fighting with. So the thing I'm not sure

497
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,720
about here and why I think this is shaky legally,

498
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,000
is the requirement that it be a hostile government or

499
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,240
nation that's working against you. I don't think you could

500
00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:29,559
claim that trend de Aragua is a foreign government or nation.

501
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,680
So you'd have to be able to show in some

502
00:27:31,799 --> 00:27:34,440
way that they are an arm of the Venezuelan government.

503
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,640
That's a hard one. And then you have to show

504
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,079
what they're actually doing rises to the level of an

505
00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:46,920
invasion or predatory incursion. When everyone a miss you know,

506
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:52,119
these are bad people. They are engaging in terrible violence,

507
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,200
They're engaging in drug dealing, human trafficking. This was the

508
00:27:56,279 --> 00:28:01,359
group that allegedly had taken over apartment buildings and see

509
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,240
I've seen the videos, and we've all seen the videos

510
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,599
of the violence they are engaged in is terrible. But

511
00:28:06,759 --> 00:28:09,359
are they really doing enough to cross the line to

512
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,400
an invasion? Are they really doing enough to cross the

513
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,160
line into a predatory incursion by a hostile country? So

514
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,480
that's one. The second question, then, the one that we're

515
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,319
fighting over now in the courts, is who gets to

516
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,240
decide that the president in Congress or the judiciary. Traditionally

517
00:28:23,279 --> 00:28:25,920
The fact, I would say traditionally, I don't think the

518
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,319
judiciary has ever in our history. Second guest, a decision

519
00:28:30,079 --> 00:28:33,279
by the president and the Congress either or or both

520
00:28:33,799 --> 00:28:37,680
that war or innovation has occurred. Doesn't happen very often

521
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,920
in our history, but the times they have, like the

522
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,480
Civil War, for example, or the War of eighteen twelve,

523
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,240
the courts said, say, that's up to the elected branches

524
00:28:46,279 --> 00:28:51,480
to decide. So, you know, I personally don't see the

525
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,480
facts yet to say this is an invasion. I don't

526
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,640
see facts that it's a predatory incursion. But I'm not

527
00:28:57,759 --> 00:29:00,559
convinced that's the courts that get to make that call.

528
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: Well, predatory incursion, right, I mean, you could say, and

529
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,759
we haven't seen any planeloads going to El Salvador in

530
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:08,160
the last couple of weeks, as far as I know

531
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,559
that the whole thing was done initially poor in courage

532
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,240
leis eltre as they say. I don't think there's anybody

533
00:29:13,279 --> 00:29:16,079
in the trend that Aqua Clubhouse is sitting around saying, now,

534
00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:18,279
this is not going to pass constitutional muster because we

535
00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:20,359
do not meet the definition of a predatory incursion. I

536
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,160
think that, you know, you know, Laylow and Sciattle, which

537
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,640
is kind of the point, but you know, it's it's

538
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,400
it's amusing to think exactly whether or not this organization

539
00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:32,920
here has any sort of structure to it or whether

540
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:36,000
or not I don't know. I mean, are any of

541
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,200
them getting orders from Maduro? Are any of them reporting

542
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,119
back to the home office about what may and they're causing,

543
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,960
or are they laying lower the rest of it? I

544
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,240
don't know. Do they have a structure at all? Do

545
00:29:45,359 --> 00:29:47,680
they have an organization? Do they have an HR? I

546
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,279
guess that's what I'm really asking here, because HR boy,

547
00:29:50,279 --> 00:29:52,200
if they got HR, you know, just just wait for

548
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,799
a trend to aquaid to just you know, follow their

549
00:29:54,799 --> 00:29:58,599
own accurt because HR is hard. Right if youel lost

550
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551
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,559
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552
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553
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554
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555
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556
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561
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563
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564
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565
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566
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569
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579
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,200
I almost stopped in the middle there to throw it

580
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,000
to Charles and ask him how he likes his sheets.

581
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,160
I Charles, Do you had something else to add to

582
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,240
the Aliens and Enemy Act or do you have another

583
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,559
legal thing that you would like to pitch towards.

584
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:42,759
Speaker 2: No.

585
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,000
Speaker 4: I do have a couple thoughts on this. The first

586
00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:48,759
is political, not legal, and it exists independently of the law.

587
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,079
This is just my personal view. I don't like the

588
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,079
fact that the administration has invoked this law in an

589
00:31:55,079 --> 00:32:00,640
attempt to execute these deportations without anyg process whatsoever. And

590
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,400
this is not because I don't want to deport lots

591
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,720
of illegal immigrants. I really do. And it's not because

592
00:32:04,759 --> 00:32:07,359
I think that illegal immigrants should be given rounds and

593
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,279
rounds and rounds of due process and give the government

594
00:32:11,279 --> 00:32:14,599
a run around as a result. It's that it seems

595
00:32:14,599 --> 00:32:17,720
that in this particular case, the big criticism that's being

596
00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:20,720
made is that there is a possibility here that we've

597
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,000
got the wrong person. Now, that is a problem in

598
00:32:24,039 --> 00:32:26,079
and of itself, but it's especially a problem when you're

599
00:32:26,079 --> 00:32:29,359
sending people to prisons in ol Salvador. I mean, if

600
00:32:29,359 --> 00:32:33,160
you were to deport me, I would be very upset

601
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,319
about this, but I would also quite quickly be able

602
00:32:35,319 --> 00:32:36,960
to go back to the border and say, actually, I'm

603
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,759
a US citizen, here's my passport. I can't do that

604
00:32:39,799 --> 00:32:42,279
if I'm in a prison in ol Salvador. So I

605
00:32:42,319 --> 00:32:44,559
do think the bare minimum that you should do, and

606
00:32:44,599 --> 00:32:47,200
again I don't think that we owe a great deal

607
00:32:47,319 --> 00:32:50,799
to illegal immigrants is to determine that they are illegal

608
00:32:50,839 --> 00:32:54,920
immigrants in the first place, and that's a step seems

609
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,200
to have been skipped. That's all I would like to

610
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,200
see done. So when I and others say there's due

611
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,160
process problem, that's mainly what we're referring to. On the

612
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,440
legal question. I don't know what John thinks about this.

613
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,440
The claim that the administration is making is that the

614
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:17,359
Act of seventeen ninety eight is in toto non justiciable.

615
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,279
That is to say, the courts are just not allowed

616
00:33:19,319 --> 00:33:23,319
to get involved. And that's not quite how I read

617
00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:26,039
that Supreme Court decision, although perhaps I'm wrong. First off,

618
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:28,319
there's a footnote in there that says judges are allowed

619
00:33:28,319 --> 00:33:30,799
to get involved in determining whether or not the Act

620
00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:34,160
applies to individuals. That is, whether individuals are fourteen years

621
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:36,599
or older and whether they do belong to the group

622
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:42,000
that's been covered. But beyond that, the case from nineteen

623
00:33:42,039 --> 00:33:46,079
forty eight, which I read last week, applies entirely to

624
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,640
instances in which a war has been declared, and that

625
00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:52,079
is the only times that this Act has been used,

626
00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:54,799
three times when wars have been declared by Congress. And

627
00:33:54,839 --> 00:33:59,799
what the court ended up saying was, Okay, the war

628
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,160
is over in some sense, because it's nineteen forty eight

629
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,200
by the point it's litigated. But when you declare war

630
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,280
and when you wager war, there's lots of after sharks,

631
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:14,480
and determining when those after sharks disappear is an intrinsically

632
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,880
political question the judiciary can't get involved with. Also, the

633
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:21,039
Second World War, in Congress's eyes, actually didn't enter on

634
00:34:21,119 --> 00:34:24,119
nineteen fifty one. Congress didn't repeal the war decoration till

635
00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:26,840
nineteen fifty one. What we have here is a second

636
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,039
part of the Lauris John says, which is to do

637
00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:31,800
with an invasion. Although the word is not declared, the

638
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,800
word is proclaimed in the law. And I just wonder

639
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:41,239
whether this might be more justiceable John, because the court

640
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,239
case that I read had nothing to do with the

641
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,119
invasion part, and all of the reasoning and the cited

642
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:49,199
text had to do with the declared war bits. So

643
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,639
is it possible this actually will be looked at by

644
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,440
the Supreme Court and they'll say, well, the courts can

645
00:34:54,519 --> 00:34:56,440
get involved when it's to do with an invasion, or

646
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,159
do you think they'll come to the same conclusion.

647
00:34:58,599 --> 00:35:02,679
Speaker 2: It's interesting. Well, first I should have made clear that

648
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,920
the most interesting thing about this is it has to

649
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,800
do with the movie The Godfather, because you may remember,

650
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,239
do you remember at the beginning of The Godfather, all

651
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,239
these people come in to see, you know, Don Corleone.

652
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,400
They're asking for favors. You might remember. One of them

653
00:35:18,519 --> 00:35:23,000
is the baker, Enzo's future father in law, and he says,

654
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:26,159
you know, Enzo, he's taken prisoner. He's an Italian, and

655
00:35:26,199 --> 00:35:29,679
he's brought into a paewcampy, United States, and he meets

656
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:33,639
my daughter. And you know what happens, Don Coroleono, can

657
00:35:33,679 --> 00:35:37,639
you please use your great power to keep my future

658
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,719
son in law in America? Because what happened the case

659
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,400
Charlie's talking about ludy Kei Versus Watkins was after the

660
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,079
fighting stopped in nineteen forty five. The declared war didn't end,

661
00:35:49,119 --> 00:35:51,880
as Charlie says, until we made the mistake of letting

662
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,000
Germany become a country again, and once we did, we

663
00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:58,079
ended the war in the fifties, right, But during that period,

664
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,719
Truman kept kicking all the Germans and Italians out of

665
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,519
the country. He kept sending them back under the Alien

666
00:36:04,599 --> 00:36:06,880
Enemies Act. And most of them didn't want to go

667
00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:09,559
because they had been here in the United States. They

668
00:36:09,559 --> 00:36:12,760
had actually been performing all the farm working jobs and

669
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,639
factory jobs that all the Americans who are fighting had

670
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,119
left behind. And so you had thousands and thousands of

671
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,880
Germans and Italians in the United States who sued to say,

672
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,079
I don't want to go back. The war is over.

673
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,519
So it's exactly as Charlie describes. So this is the

674
00:36:28,599 --> 00:36:31,559
interesting thing I was gonna guess. I think, first of all,

675
00:36:31,559 --> 00:36:34,360
the issues are exactly as Charlie describes. One, is it

676
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,559
a declared war or an invasion? Who gets to decide?

677
00:36:38,159 --> 00:36:40,719
Are the courts going to step in? Then the second question,

678
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,280
where I think Charlie is right, is what kind of

679
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,639
due process are the courts going to require to kick

680
00:36:47,039 --> 00:36:49,159
any of these people out, whether it's an Alien Enemies

681
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:51,960
Act or the immigration laws. I think he's right. The

682
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,159
courts have said you get some kind of due process.

683
00:36:55,679 --> 00:36:58,719
This is the lesson of the Guantano Bay cases, which

684
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:02,239
I think the government the court incorrectly, but the Guantanma

685
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,880
Bay cases say it's wartime the court. That's another example

686
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,760
of the court as we accept the nine to eleven

687
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,639
attacks are war the President of Congress degree. But if

688
00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:14,960
there are going to be enemy prisoners who are held

689
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,719
in the United States, and that's where I think they

690
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,039
were wrong. They said Guantanmos part of the United States,

691
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,079
but they're in the United States, they get due process,

692
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,360
and the power of the government there was much stronger

693
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,679
than it is here, I think, because there you got

694
00:37:26,679 --> 00:37:29,599
a real war going on. So I think for sure

695
00:37:29,599 --> 00:37:31,599
they're going to get due prositrolleys. Right, we don't know

696
00:37:31,599 --> 00:37:33,119
what level of what kind of it's going to be,

697
00:37:33,199 --> 00:37:35,440
but they will get something so that you could make

698
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,800
sure there's not an error, you know, that they're not

699
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,039
kicking someone out who's not a member of the gang

700
00:37:40,119 --> 00:37:43,599
or who was in Venezuelan. The first question, though, that's

701
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,559
you know the US say. Historically the courts have said

702
00:37:47,559 --> 00:37:51,199
it's a political question whether something's even in invasion not

703
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,840
under this statute. The only example we have is the

704
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,719
Civil War, and there's these great cases called the Prize cases,

705
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,280
where these people who owned Southern ships that were captured

706
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:03,960
by the Union right at the beginning of the war

707
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:06,840
went to the Supreme Court said give us our ships back.

708
00:38:07,079 --> 00:38:09,719
There was no war going on, Congress wasn't in session,

709
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:13,400
they didn't declare any civil war, any rebellion, and the

710
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,599
court said there if the country's attacked, it is up

711
00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:19,639
to the president to decide, and it's up to the

712
00:38:19,679 --> 00:38:23,480
president to decide what kind of force to respond with,

713
00:38:23,639 --> 00:38:28,079
and courts can't review that decision. Now, the president they're

714
00:38:28,119 --> 00:38:30,840
talking about is someone named Abraham Lincoln and not Donald Trump.

715
00:38:31,039 --> 00:38:33,840
I can see that. So you could see a court

716
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,079
these days being a little more skeptical. But you also worry,

717
00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:40,639
how does a court know whether something's an invasion or not.

718
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,000
The DC Circuit, the Appeals Court here that just you know,

719
00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:47,639
a day or two ago, upheld Judge Bosberg in junction.

720
00:38:49,039 --> 00:38:51,599
Two of the judges there said, we can't judge whether

721
00:38:51,639 --> 00:38:54,760
this is an invasion, and it's not. This is not military.

722
00:38:55,559 --> 00:38:58,199
But do we How do courts really make that decision?

723
00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:02,960
They need to have access to classified information and diplomatic

724
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,360
and national security information that's really not in their Ken's

725
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,119
and that's been why courts, I think historically have stayed

726
00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:10,480
out of it.

727
00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:13,519
Speaker 1: Well, well, seeah, this develops. I mean, basically, you got

728
00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:15,320
a lot of people in this country eighty twenty I think,

729
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,639
who are pretty much in favor of guys who have

730
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,760
been shielded by a sanctuary city after committing X number

731
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,119
of crimes on people and children and the rest of it.

732
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,280
They are not particularly concerned about their fate. I'm not

733
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,440
saying that's a good thing or a bad thing. I

734
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,840
just think in general the electorate will regard this with

735
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:34,199
kind of sort of a shrug.

736
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,119
Speaker 4: Well, it's a great thing to deal with those people.

737
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,960
Of course, we do need to determine that they are

738
00:39:41,039 --> 00:39:43,760
those people and some guy who runs a lone drevet.

739
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, you're absolutely right.

740
00:39:46,159 --> 00:39:49,159
Speaker 2: And the one other point is these they're not getting out.

741
00:39:49,519 --> 00:39:52,840
They're already in detention. And even if you can't hold

742
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:54,920
them under the Alien Enemies Act, you can still hold

743
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,639
them under the immigration laws, and they can still be

744
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:01,000
deported under the normal immigration laws. But as Charlie said,

745
00:40:01,159 --> 00:40:03,519
it takes a lot longer. There's a lot of levels

746
00:40:03,519 --> 00:40:05,119
of review. You got a right to go to court

747
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,719
to stop it, and I think there so I'm puzzled, actually,

748
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,119
why the administration wants to use the alien enemy setter.

749
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,440
What is the advantage you get. I think that first

750
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:15,840
they thought you could do it and not have to

751
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,519
go have any hearings at all. But I think they've

752
00:40:18,559 --> 00:40:19,360
lost that one.

753
00:40:19,559 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 1: Well, let's look at some court cases coming up. You know,

754
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,000
things are going to turn through. There's gonna be temporary restrained,

755
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:31,079
but there's some interesting and philosophically distinctive cases coming up. John,

756
00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:33,400
why don't you tell or you know, tell us about

757
00:40:33,559 --> 00:40:38,960
the Federal Communications Commissions the consumer's research, Because this has

758
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,000
to do with some sort of ancient tax that may

759
00:40:42,039 --> 00:40:45,559
not actually be applicable or useful or necessary in the

760
00:40:45,559 --> 00:40:49,360
modern world. You've got ninety seconds to tell the class

761
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,599
what it's all about. Go plastic.

762
00:40:51,599 --> 00:40:54,199
Speaker 2: Example, the administrative state and Congress, not wanting to make

763
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:58,519
hard choices, Congress gave to the SCC the power to

764
00:40:58,639 --> 00:41:03,960
basically impose a tax on everybody's telecommunication bills so that

765
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,400
they could build out the network for a universal service.

766
00:41:09,039 --> 00:41:11,280
The FCC then turned around and gave the power to

767
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,519
get another body, which is made up of people who

768
00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:17,400
work for the companies, Right it was basically made up

769
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,480
of corporate representatives of this industry. So this raises the

770
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,760
very important question of what's called the non delegation doctrine.

771
00:41:26,519 --> 00:41:29,679
Is there a constitutional principle that says there's a limit

772
00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:34,159
on how much power Congress can give away? Is there

773
00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:37,199
a requirement under the Constitution that certain decisions have to

774
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,239
be made by Congress. So I always like to say,

775
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:41,880
because there's some people who say, in fact, I would

776
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,599
say most academics would say, no, there's no limit. If

777
00:41:44,639 --> 00:41:46,960
Congress and think about like things like the Clean Air

778
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,719
Act that just says the EPA can do what's necessary

779
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,119
to make the air clean, and the course of upheld that,

780
00:41:53,559 --> 00:41:55,119
even though it seems to me to give the entire

781
00:41:55,199 --> 00:41:59,880
legislative power to the EPA. So I've always said, could

782
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:04,159
Congress say the IRS shall determine all taxes in the country.

783
00:42:04,519 --> 00:42:07,280
They can set all the rates, It can decide what's text,

784
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:10,119
it can decide what's not text. And Congress just says,

785
00:42:10,639 --> 00:42:13,880
just make sure you raise one hundred billion dollars to me.

786
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:17,280
That would violate this idea that there are limits on

787
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:21,199
how much power Congress can give to the agencies. But

788
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,719
the Supreme Court has really struggled. They have not struck

789
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,840
down a law on the non delegation doctrine since nineteen

790
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,440
thirty five, I think nineteen thirty four, before FDR threatened

791
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,239
to pack the courts. But this is the interesting thing.

792
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,679
Five of the conservative justices of the Supreme Court have

793
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,280
said in various cases, never all at once, never together,

794
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,039
but in various cases they all think there is such

795
00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:45,920
a limit, but they can't figure out what the right

796
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,480
test is and how to apply it. So if you

797
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,559
do the if you figure out the chess board, I

798
00:42:51,559 --> 00:42:54,280
think the Supreme Court is going to strike this down,

799
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,280
But I'm not sure how they're going to agree on

800
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,039
what the principle is going to be and how you're

801
00:42:59,039 --> 00:43:02,519
going to say, Congress can give away some power, but

802
00:43:02,559 --> 00:43:06,119
they can't give away all the power. By the way,

803
00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:07,400
one of the most important could be one of the

804
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,880
most important decisions, much more important than things like what

805
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,000
we've talked about for Lope or Bright and Chevron. That's

806
00:43:13,079 --> 00:43:15,920
just eating around the edges. But if the courts were

807
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,960
to say Congress can't give power to the administrative state,

808
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,679
that could be a real dagger in the heart of

809
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:22,920
progressive government.

810
00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:26,159
Speaker 4: John, do you think it's going well. I was going

811
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:29,320
to ask whether you think that it's possible that instead

812
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:36,000
of reaching the key question of delegation, that the court

813
00:43:36,519 --> 00:43:42,039
strikes down this delegation on really narrow grounds and says

814
00:43:42,199 --> 00:43:45,719
you're not allowed to delegate delegated power to a private

815
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,039
institution and doesn't reach the difficult authorny stuff that I

816
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:49,679
love them too.

817
00:43:50,039 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is that possibility. They could raise some difficult

818
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,960
problems for lots of important agencies. Nonetheless, not just Amtrak,

819
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,280
but the Federal Reserve. Have you ever looked at how

820
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,440
the federal Have you ever looked at who's on the

821
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,880
Federal Reserve and how they get there? Right, it's like

822
00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:09,480
local banker, like regional banks get to appoint members of

823
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:13,400
the Federal Reserve and they work for the industry effectively.

824
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:14,679
Speaker 1: Let's say this goes the right way, and then you

825
00:44:14,679 --> 00:44:16,599
have Chevron as well. Do you think anything is actually

826
00:44:16,639 --> 00:44:19,039
going to happen? I mean, has anybody actually gone back

827
00:44:19,039 --> 00:44:22,239
to these aspects of the administrative state where they promulgated

828
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,760
regulations in excess of their authorities, show we say and

829
00:44:26,199 --> 00:44:28,599
done anything about striking them down. I don't you know,

830
00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:30,039
post Chevron, you thought you there.

831
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,639
Speaker 2: This is how we get California abundance. Because I would say,

832
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,360
if there is a set of laws that really burdens

833
00:44:38,679 --> 00:44:42,000
the economy, slows everything down, as the environmental laws, right,

834
00:44:42,599 --> 00:44:45,239
your usual partner in crime, Steve Hayward. I'm glad he's

835
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,800
not here because otherwise he'd want to wax eloquently about

836
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,639
the clean air and clean water actions. You don't want

837
00:44:49,679 --> 00:44:52,280
that on a family show. But he would say, you

838
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,039
look at what slows things that. I think those are

839
00:44:55,079 --> 00:44:57,360
the laws that have the biggest delegations. I wasn't making

840
00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,159
it up. The Cleaner Act basically just says, ep, hey

841
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,800
make the air clean. You can do whatever's necessary in

842
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,480
the public interest to make the air clean. Those laws

843
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,840
are so vague, they give so much power to the

844
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:13,440
environmental agencies. They interfer in so many aspects of our economy.

845
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,480
That's what's slowing down all the infrastructure and investment and

846
00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:18,679
all the clean power projects and all that, as well

847
00:45:18,679 --> 00:45:22,119
as things like roads and pipelines and construction projects and

848
00:45:22,159 --> 00:45:25,400
even just building houses. So I think if you could

849
00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:29,480
create something that actually said Congress can't get away by

850
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,360
just dumping all this power, all this amazing sweep of

851
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,039
power on these agencies. You might have more accountable government

852
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,440
and you might have more responsible decision making.

853
00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: Agreed, there's another one. We're going to do another Supreme

854
00:45:42,039 --> 00:45:44,719
Court case. You're coming up. Why don't you tell us

855
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:51,320
about the United States versus a poor little pheasant, own pheasant.

856
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,199
Go on with that usv. Pheasant.

857
00:45:55,559 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 2: I have no idea what that case is. You've got

858
00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,159
me stumped, James. I didn't know this is going to

859
00:45:59,159 --> 00:46:00,000
be a lightning round.

860
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,559
Speaker 1: It's the BLM case. Charles. Have you heard about this?

861
00:46:03,639 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 4: I don't think so. Can you explain the outline.

862
00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: Well as I understand it, based on the very brief

863
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,119
preiseis that was handed to me minutes ago the Bureau

864
00:46:12,119 --> 00:46:15,280
of Land Management. The suit regards their authority to make

865
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,280
rules for federal lands, which is then delegated to Saints himselves.

866
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: So I thought you it was a case about a

867
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:22,920
pheasant like a bird.

868
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: No, that's the guy's name, the guy who was driving

869
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,760
the motorcyclist right riding a dirt bike on federal land

870
00:46:31,039 --> 00:46:33,280
without a tail light. And apparently this is you know,

871
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:35,199
this is not a federal issue.

872
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 2: This is again, this is the same non delegation doctrine

873
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:41,960
case and as you say, you describe it accurately. He's

874
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,639
claiming that the Congress gave too much authority to the

875
00:46:45,679 --> 00:46:48,440
bureau lammit. So again, I think this is the starting

876
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,880
point where you could start to build a non delegation doctrine.

877
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,480
It's the Congress. If they can't there's got to be

878
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,320
some powers they can't give away. And guess one of

879
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,320
them is the power to tax. The Institution says, the

880
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,280
Congress has the powered taxes, says, and give special rules

881
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,360
about how you pass laws about taxation. It would seem

882
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,559
to me the other kind of law that Congress should

883
00:47:11,559 --> 00:47:14,119
not be able to delegate would be criminal law, laws

884
00:47:14,119 --> 00:47:18,960
that have punishments behind them for violating them, Because how

885
00:47:18,960 --> 00:47:21,320
are you supposed to know as a citizen whether what

886
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:23,199
you're doing is illegal or not if it's just up

887
00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:26,519
to some agency that issues of regulation that it can

888
00:47:26,599 --> 00:47:29,440
change a monkey around with from year to year. So

889
00:47:29,679 --> 00:47:33,320
I think that's this case could provide that other kind

890
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,679
of basis for building a non delegation doctrine for you

891
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:41,000
to say, Congress also can't delegate this power to set

892
00:47:41,079 --> 00:47:45,320
crimes or to set fines that punish people, because you

893
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,440
have a right as a citizen to know. And it's

894
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:51,199
such an important aspect regulating that private rights and legal

895
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,559
duties of citizens should be made by Congress, not by agencies.

896
00:47:55,639 --> 00:47:58,480
And I think that's the kind of thing the conservatives

897
00:47:58,519 --> 00:48:00,559
on the Court could agree with. I think if you

898
00:48:00,639 --> 00:48:03,239
go back and look, you know, I blame the English.

899
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:04,960
I mean, I think they were right. But this idea

900
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:06,880
of the non delegation doctrine, I should say, comes from

901
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,760
John Locke. There's a passage in Locke where he says,

902
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,760
you delegate power. You know, the basic theory is, you know,

903
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:16,800
we're citizens, we delegate power to the government. And then

904
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,159
he says, you can't have a redelegation as actually as

905
00:48:19,199 --> 00:48:22,440
Charlie said, key redelegate then from our agency. Can they

906
00:48:22,559 --> 00:48:25,480
keep delegating endlessly and endlessly? And Locke says no, it

907
00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:29,360
has some stopping point. And you would think that the

908
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:31,360
right to make the criminal laws and the right to

909
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,719
pass taxes would be the kinds of things we would

910
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,119
only want our direct representatives to be able to do.

911
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 4: I have an even more radical hope for this one, James,

912
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,719
if you'll permit me a couple of minutes, Yes, of course,

913
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:49,360
this is not going to happen. But one of the

914
00:48:49,519 --> 00:48:52,719
arguments that the plaintiffs have made in this case is

915
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,480
that the federal government does not have, in the first place,

916
00:48:57,119 --> 00:49:00,840
any enumerated power that allows it just to hold land.

917
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,119
In other words, obviously, as part of the enumerated powers

918
00:49:06,119 --> 00:49:08,519
that the federal government does have, it has to be

919
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:12,360
able to own and manage land. If you accept that

920
00:49:12,519 --> 00:49:16,360
the federal government has the power, for example, to run

921
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,280
a military, then it's going to need to have ports

922
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,280
and bases and airfields and so on. Likewise, if you

923
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,880
accept that the federal government's going to have Article three judges,

924
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,519
then you need to have courthouses. But a lot of

925
00:49:29,559 --> 00:49:33,440
the land that is out there in the West, in particular,

926
00:49:34,199 --> 00:49:37,079
is just owned by the federal government. It's not that

927
00:49:37,119 --> 00:49:41,519
it's using it for something else that is listed in

928
00:49:41,559 --> 00:49:45,320
the Constitution. It just has it. It was never homesteaded.

929
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:48,400
And one of the arguments that's been advanced is it's

930
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:49,360
not allowed to do that.

931
00:49:50,119 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 2: Now.

932
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,639
Speaker 4: The reason this isn't going to happen is, Firstly, it

933
00:49:52,639 --> 00:49:55,239
would be pretty radical for the Supreme Court at this

934
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,480
point to say, by the way, you weren't allowed to

935
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:02,719
do that. Second, people love national parks and I also

936
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,880
like national parks. I think if you applied an originalist

937
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,800
lends to national parks, you might have trouble justify their constitutionality.

938
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,320
And there's just no way that's going to happen. But

939
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,880
I would love to see a ruling that limited the

940
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,880
federal government's capacity just to have this land, because once

941
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,199
you have land under federal control, the federal government has

942
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,280
plenary power to do whatever it wants on it, set

943
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,159
whatever rules. Now, of course John's totally right. The problem

944
00:50:29,199 --> 00:50:32,679
in this case is that this is done bureaucratically rather

945
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,599
than by Congress. But Congress could also do whatever it

946
00:50:35,639 --> 00:50:38,760
wanted on that land. So if you live, for example,

947
00:50:39,199 --> 00:50:43,559
in Idaho or in Nevada, two states that are full

948
00:50:43,599 --> 00:50:47,440
of federal land, you may think that you are governed

949
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,760
by your state legislature and your governor. But in most

950
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,840
of the space in those two states, you're actually not.

951
00:50:54,639 --> 00:50:57,079
You are governed by the Bureau of Land Management, and

952
00:50:57,119 --> 00:51:00,000
that presents its own problem independently of where the power

953
00:51:00,119 --> 00:51:02,960
lives relative to the legislature and the executive. That presents

954
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:07,119
its own problem in terms of federalism, because you've got

955
00:51:07,159 --> 00:51:11,559
this state that is mostly run and administered from Washington.

956
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:18,280
Speaker 1: There you go, committing sedition again, Charlie. Yeah, he gets

957
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:19,880
all of his right papers and then he turns into

958
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:22,920
a complete radical. I tell you that's a wonderful transformation.

959
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,280
Enough law, enough politics, enough of all of this stuff.

960
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,760
We'll end with what the Internet did this week and

961
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:36,400
went crazy. Open AI opened up, released a module, a program,

962
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,400
an app. I don't even call it, call it, I

963
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:46,519
don't care that. Let anybody studio gilby themselves. I actually

964
00:51:46,559 --> 00:51:49,280
have had access to that through my own AI generating

965
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,880
program for an awful long time. It wasn't very good.

966
00:51:52,039 --> 00:51:55,079
I mean, it was called a ghibli Twilter filter, but

967
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:58,480
everybody was running every single picture that has been taken,

968
00:51:58,599 --> 00:52:00,559
every iconic and I hate to use it. I'm sorry.

969
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:02,679
I did picture through this filter and some of them

970
00:52:02,679 --> 00:52:06,119
were kind of amusing, and within about six or seven

971
00:52:06,119 --> 00:52:08,719
hours or so, we were all completely and utterly sick

972
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,199
of it. I don't know if either you guys did

973
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,559
that to yourself or what your approach is, but I

974
00:52:14,639 --> 00:52:16,559
was seen by the end of the day a lot

975
00:52:16,559 --> 00:52:20,800
of pieces saying that AI art is essentially fascististic and

976
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:25,000
that this just proved it, and that frankly, it's disrespectful

977
00:52:25,159 --> 00:52:28,559
and horrible to our cultural history to use this fascist

978
00:52:28,559 --> 00:52:32,079
tool to generate images which which the right wing love.

979
00:52:32,199 --> 00:52:35,719
And I was unaware necessarily of a political distinction between this.

980
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:40,639
But apparently AI art is now fascist coded. You guys

981
00:52:40,639 --> 00:52:46,559
get that vibe that hadn't occurred to me. Okay, well

982
00:52:46,559 --> 00:52:48,280
it's true, Charles, because I read a piece on a

983
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:50,719
tech website about it.

984
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,159
Speaker 4: Is it that that style? You said it's called ghibli.

985
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:57,519
I was wondering how to pronounce that gimbli gimbly.

986
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 2: You know, Japanese anime movie. Yeah, why you would want

987
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,760
to make a picture yourself looking like that is beyond me.

988
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 4: But why is it fascist? Sorry? Is it fascist? Or

989
00:53:08,519 --> 00:53:09,679
is the use of it fascist?

990
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:10,039
Speaker 3: Oh?

991
00:53:10,159 --> 00:53:12,039
Speaker 1: The use of it is fascist. The image itself isn't

992
00:53:12,039 --> 00:53:14,440
because everybody loves the studio because they watched the movies

993
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,920
when they were growing up in the great memories for them.

994
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:22,679
Speaker 2: Because the company, because like Google and Microsoft and Facebook

995
00:53:22,679 --> 00:53:25,119
are well known fascist companies.

996
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 3: And.

997
00:53:27,119 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: That's one of the the article says, zuk is Zuchus

998
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:34,679
code and fashion. Now, absolutely they were using the example.

999
00:53:35,159 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 2: But James, this reminds you, wasn't there like a year

1000
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,199
ago when you you could say, show me a picture

1001
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:43,639
of the Queens of England and it generated all the

1002
00:53:43,679 --> 00:53:46,239
AI just generated all these PC versions.

1003
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 4: That was Gemini.

1004
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:51,679
Speaker 1: That was Gemini. That was that was work.

1005
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like the best moment does was if you put in,

1006
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,920
you know, show me a union a Confederate soldier, then

1007
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:00,960
they were the Confederate. I thought it would be black

1008
00:54:01,079 --> 00:54:04,320
or Nazi, and it'd be Jewish. And just because they

1009
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,239
were picking ethnicities and religious views at random assigning them

1010
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:10,960
to people because that's whatever the I is, right, you

1011
00:54:11,039 --> 00:54:13,159
have to have representation in all spaces.

1012
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: So it wasn't necessarily at random that there were some

1013
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:18,920
parts of it that were actually forcing that, as you say,

1014
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:20,920
because you had to have representation. They didn't want to

1015
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,960
biased AI. No, it's because people like you know, the

1016
00:54:24,079 --> 00:54:30,480
Argentinian president and their own administration, and Nazis in general,

1017
00:54:30,639 --> 00:54:34,880
the return type, the traditionalists, the trad bros. They love

1018
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,960
to use AI to generate these images of an idyllic

1019
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,360
white America that never existed. They use it to generate,

1020
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,920
you know, sort of Facebook AI slot pictures of Donald

1021
00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:47,599
Trump crossing the Delaware by walking on the water, all

1022
00:54:47,599 --> 00:54:50,239
of that stuff. So the very fact that people with

1023
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,039
very limited imaginations are not a great deal of artistic ability,

1024
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:56,760
are using this decree political images means the whole thing

1025
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:01,599
is now fash So you know, you know, everybody's a Nazi.

1026
00:55:02,039 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 4: It's great, isn't it. There's so much now that's fascist,

1027
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:06,239
And I'm just glad that this gets its moment in

1028
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:06,639
the sun.

1029
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,679
Speaker 1: Exactly. I would think actually that giving to the people

1030
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:13,960
a tool which allows them to create art of whatever

1031
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,079
style of variety and message that they like, that that

1032
00:55:17,559 --> 00:55:21,079
if that is fascism, then I'm not exactly sure what

1033
00:55:21,159 --> 00:55:25,320
you word you use to describe a state directed effort

1034
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:30,079
that constrains the expression of any cultural idea and forces

1035
00:55:30,119 --> 00:55:32,840
it to conform to the ideas of the state and

1036
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,280
glorify the state. That seems to me to be your

1037
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:39,639
more FASc thing. And the open ended tool that everybody

1038
00:55:39,679 --> 00:55:43,679
can use over here doesn't seem to be that nazisque.

1039
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,559
But what do I know that.

1040
00:55:46,599 --> 00:55:48,440
Speaker 2: Brings to mind just this funny little stary Oh, can

1041
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:50,679
I just tell us weird lot, this little tidbit about

1042
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:53,320
being in California, which is, you go to a shooting

1043
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,920
range in California, which is not easy to do these days.

1044
00:55:56,519 --> 00:55:58,719
And you pick targets, you know you're allowed to pick it.

1045
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,159
You're not a out in California, I don't either this's

1046
00:56:02,159 --> 00:56:05,079
the range owners or the there's a law. But it's

1047
00:56:05,199 --> 00:56:08,920
very hard now to find a kind of image that

1048
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:10,679
you're allowed to shoot at because you want to shoot

1049
00:56:10,679 --> 00:56:13,119
at something you hate. You're not allowed to hate anybody anymore.

1050
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,239
So you don't have like a picture of a deer.

1051
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:18,800
You don't have criminals, because you know, criminal suspects could

1052
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,239
be bad. You could have you know, racially insensitive drawings.

1053
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:26,840
So the only kind of target that's agreed on by

1054
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:35,199
everyone as okay to shoot at Nazi zombies. Okay, that's

1055
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:37,719
life in that's life in the land of abundance.

1056
00:56:40,199 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 1: Yes, well when the culture I mean, and this is

1057
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,480
a culture that used to sell Hitler and Mussolini decals

1058
00:56:45,599 --> 00:56:48,000
for urinals. Some men could improve their aim back in

1059
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:49,280
the back and back in the days.

1060
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 2: Ah.

1061
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: Yes, well, listen, if you have an HR problem, you

1062
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,480
know where to go. Bamboo HR. Support them for supporting us.

1063
00:56:56,559 --> 00:57:00,920
If you have a desire for a free, swinging, free

1064
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,920
arranging conversation about all sorts of matters from cultural to sports,

1065
00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,039
arts and politics, and the rest of it. You know

1066
00:57:06,079 --> 00:57:08,400
where to go, ricochet dot com. And if you are

1067
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,320
already there and you're already a member, thank you. If

1068
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,840
you're not, give it a look. It's cheap and oh

1069
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,400
you get the sort of community you've been looking for

1070
00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,079
all your life in the web. It's not Twitter, it's

1071
00:57:19,119 --> 00:57:22,599
not Facebook, it's not Blue Sky. It's its own style

1072
00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:24,480
and its own place, and you're gonna love it. Give

1073
00:57:24,559 --> 00:57:27,559
us five stars wherever you can. Can't hurt what you know.

1074
00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:29,320
It's it gonna cost you anything, No, it does not,

1075
00:57:29,519 --> 00:57:32,119
So do it. Maybe Stephen will be back next week,

1076
00:57:32,239 --> 00:57:34,400
maybe he won't. Maybe Charles will be here, maybe he won't.

1077
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,679
I will John. It's been fun and great and you know,

1078
00:57:38,719 --> 00:57:40,400
we got to have the legal questions we'd like to

1079
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,400
post you, but it's always a pleasure to have you on.

1080
00:57:42,719 --> 00:57:46,000
Go forth and shamrock, shake your way through the weekend

1081
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:49,320
and enjoy yourself and we will in Charles by. We'll

1082
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:51,920
see everybody in the comments at Ricochet four point oh,

1083
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:59,559
any of them see you next week Ricochet. Yeah, join

1084
00:57:59,639 --> 00:58:00,360
the conversation.