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Speaker 1: It's good all right, And uh now I've got Sam's

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channel linked if you want to check out his material there.

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But welcome to Jay's analysis. We're going to have a

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pretty heavy handed approach to the trolls and the chat tonight.

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So if you're going to be trolling, there's gonna be

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a pretty quick bands laid laid out. This is not

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a debate. We are having it. We're having a chat tonight.

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Uh So a lot of people who is a debate?

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It's not a debate just so I couldn't.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't be able to debate anyway. Brother, My field

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is different. It's Islam and the Trinity. So I'm a

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neo fight when it comes to the areas.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's fine. Uh That's why I wanted to chat

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with you is because now I am not a expert

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in Islam by any means. I've actually kind of just

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gotten interested in this topic in the last say six months,

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and my discord we've had quite a few Muslims come

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in and have debates, and so we've gradually been sort

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of educating me on this topic through the discord and

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through all of our Ortho bros there, and we've actually

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had multiple guys who were formerly Muslims now are Orthodox

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Christians in the server. So we've got a lot of

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people who know the topic. You know this topic very well.

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So why don't you tell everybody who you are and

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what you do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's let me just invoke our glorious trying God

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and praise the God and Father of the Lord, Jesus Christ. Father.

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We love you, Lord Jesus, we love you, Holy Spirit,

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we love you. Bless this session, anoint us to glorify

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Jesus Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit. Savor

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them from error and confusion, and sanctify our motives so

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that only Jesus will be magnified in this session. We

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love you, Father, We love you, Lord Jesus, Son of God.

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We love the Holy Spirit. Have your way in Jesus name. Amen. Yeah. So,

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my encounter Islam started in the nineties. And I don't

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want to spend too much time on my background because

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I can be here all day talking about it and

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I don't want to bore people to tears. But in

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the late nineties I had an interest in God. Just

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to let me backtrack, I'm Assyrian. I'm not Syrian. I'm Assyrian.

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My parents are from what is called the Historian Church,

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even though they're bishops, and the patriarch denies that they

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believe they are two persons, that Christ is uni personal.

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That's another topic, but that was my background. But I

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wasn't raised in the tradition of the Church of the East,

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the Historian Church, so pretty much I was exposed to

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Christianity by independent fundamental Baptist King James Only Christians because

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in my neighborhood we used to have this bus route

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where they would come and pick up kids from the

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neighborhood and drive them to this big church in Indiana, Hamon,

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Indiana first Baptist Church. So my encounter with Christianity wasn't

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from my own background, which was which would be an Historianism.

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It was independent fundamental Baptist theology, King James Onlyism. And

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then there was a young man whose grandmother also taught

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me about the faith. But then when I became a teenager,

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I drifted away did things I shouldn't have done, and

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then around seventeen and a half eighteen, I decided that

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I needed to know who God was. And then I

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had my first encounter with a Muslim. But this Muslim

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was a member of the Nation of Islam. Now, remember

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I don't know much about Islam because though my parents

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are from the Middle East, I was born in Kuwait,

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but my parents are from Iraq, so they are Assyrian

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Iraqi Christians. Not only did they not teach me about Christianity,

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they never mentioned Islam once to me in my entire life.

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I never had my parents tell me that most of

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their neighbors were Muslims and their religion is Islam, So

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I have no idea what Islam is. My first introduction

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to Islam was by an African American, a black gentleman.

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His name was Hallis, And what really confused me is

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that he would keep saying Praise be to Almighty Allah.

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Now why is that baffling? Because in my mother tongue

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I speak Syriac offshoot of Aramaic, we say allah or

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we say ad Aha. That's the definite form a Dah

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means God, Adaha means the God. So when he kept

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saying Ahlah, I got baffled, and so I asked him,

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I said, how do you know this term a law?

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Where did you learn this from?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And he started talking about the honor Elijah, Muhammad, Master

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Froug Muhammad, the prophet Muhammad, and Lewis Farakhan. He was

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a member of the Nation of Islam. So that was

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my first introduction to heterodox version of Islam. He gave

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me a chron. I started studying the Koran. I was

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really intrigued by the fact that in the Koran most

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of the Biblical characters are mentioned, including Jesus. So that

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put a fire in my heart to go back to

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the New Testament. Because remember my upbringing independent fundamental Baptist

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exposed to the King James. So I decided to go

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back and read the New Testament, fell in love with Jesus.

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And so I had a friend who was Bosnian. At

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that time, you can't tell now, I mean before I

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used to be into bodybuilding and kickboxing.

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Speaker 1: Right now, I.

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Speaker 2: Used to have a V taper, So the only V

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taper haves is an upside down V right, so I'm

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like the triangle. So at that time I had a

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friend who was Bosian whose father was a boxing coach,

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and he was teaching a professional boxer heavyweight. So he

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would teach me boxing and I would teach him how

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to lift weights. And then we started talking about the

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faith and he was a Bosian from a Muslim background.

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He got interested. His Muslim friends noticed that he was

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losing interests in Islam, and they wanted to know which

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Christian quote unquote missionary. Now an Islamic jargon Islamic jargon.

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When you're labeled a missionary, that's a bad word. Once

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they call you a missionary, that means that this man

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is evil. He's an agent, a tool of the devil.

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He's going to try to destroy your family values, your religions.

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Stay away from him. So once a Muslim calls you

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a missionary, you're blacklisted. To us, that's an honorific title.

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Right When you call someone a missionary, you mean he's

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going out glorifying Christ, preaching the Gospel. So then that's

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a bad word. So they want to know who this

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Christian missionary is. So this is all in the nineties

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taking place. And then they brought in a Muslim apologist.

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Now I'm green when it comes to the Bible, I'm

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green when it comes to Christianity, and I'm green when

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it comes to Slam. This man was prepared. He's a dai.

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A dai is one who's trained to invite people to Islam.

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Non Muslims to Islam, and he was studying the arguments

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of someone that later on I became familiar with, the

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late Ahmeddi Dad. Ahmadi Dad was a big name in

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the nineties, so was Jamal Badi. Now these people are

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pretty much d Dad is dead, but jam is pretty

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much retired. But thank God for you too. You can

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just put Ahmadi Dad and you'll see his lectures as debates.

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He became famous Jay for debating Jimmy Swagger in the eighties.

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That made him famous because in the eighties the biggest

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televangelist in the eighties was Jimmy Swagger. He debated him,

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is the Bible God's Word? Now, if you go with content,

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see again, you're trained to think philosophically and logically. If

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you judge the debate on content, Di Dot didn't do much,

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but because of his rhetoric and his flash, he gave

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the impression that he decimated Jimmy Swagger. But on content, no,

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Jimmy Swaggert actually amazingly did very well. And I say

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that amazing because I wouldn't expect someone to have great

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depth of the Bible, but he was prepared. On content,

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Swagger did extremely well, but on flash and rhetoric, he

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dazzled the Muslim audience and he became a celebrity. So

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this man who confronted me was studying di dot and

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he destroyed me. He asked me questions about the Trinity

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from the Bible, or about alleged discrepancies in the Bible,

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or about Jesus's claims in the Bible, all of which

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seemed to deny the Trinity. Now, mind you, I still

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don't know what the Trinity is. You know, I just

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came into the faith. I didn't have any formal training.

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I didn't have any pastor or priest, bishop teaching me

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the core doctrines of the Christian faith, or even the

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history of the church or the Council, none of that.

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So I still didn't know what the Trinity was. All

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I knew was that Jesus is the son of God,

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and somehow that means he's God. I got baffled. So

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then what I did was I just cried out to

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God and I said, God, please, if you help me

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to find answer to these objections, I will commit myself,

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by your grace to making sure that no Christian gets

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humiliated and that they're an answer to their objections, and

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that began my journey of studying the Koran, studying the Bible,

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finding sources at that time because there was no Internet,

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but there was a missionary from Pakistan who had retired.

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We had a library books by Christian apologists and missionaries,

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so I started reading some of those books, and then

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by nineteen ninety nine I joined the website Answering Islam

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and went into full time ministry and the rest is history.

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So that's how I got introduced to this type of ministry.

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And as you can tell my approach, I'm very harsh.

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And the reason why I'm harsh is because the Muslims

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I debated were harsh. They would attack, they would mock,

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they would ridicule, they would blaspheme. And the more aggressive

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I became, the more fearful they became of me, because

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they don't like timidity, because when they see you that

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you're very timid and solved, they take that as a

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sign of weakness. So my approach may not endear itself

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to a Western audience that thinks there is no time

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or place to be harsh or cruel or even mean spirited,

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but that's just the nature of the work. I do.

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So that's a quick introduction the grace of Lord.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you for that. Yeah. I mean, we get

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a lot of the same kind of criticisms here because

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I go pretty heavy at times. I don't know if

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I would say that I'm necessarily mean spirited, But you know,

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if scripture in many places calls people a fool for

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affirming foolish things, there's nothing wrong with us identifying when

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something is foolish and calling it foolish. So yeah, yeah,

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thanks for that. I had a similar situation too when

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I was a young guy and I just started reading

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the Bible at eighteen, and I remember I didn't know

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what the Trinity was, I didn't know about the duty

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of Christ. I was brand new to reading the Gospels.

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And I remember I met Jehovah's witness girl and she

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did the exact same thing to me, where she just

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started pointing out all these texts and the New Testament

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and I had no idea why I thought Jesus was

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divine or where, and I didn't know how to explain

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these texts. But I'm actually glad that that happened because

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it prompted me to then go and start studying in

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a more serious way of the New Testament and start

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studying apologetics and so forth. So thank you for that.

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Glad to hear your story. Tell me about let's maybe

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talk about the Quran. Okay, so this is the area

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that I'm not that well versed in. When I watched

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the debate that you did with Shaveria Leave some nine

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years ago, I noticed that right away you kind of

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went in on textual issues and the textual contradictions, and

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that one thing I noticed was that there seems to

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be like a moving of the goalposts. A true for me,

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but not for the situation where they will utilize textual

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critics higher critics about the Bible. But anything that those

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same textual critics say about the Quran, no, that's dismissed.

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So only when it's useful against the Bible do we

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use these liberal critics. And I think you had you

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had a whole bunch of excellent examples of things that

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were problematic, and I and as I listened, and I

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didn't hear him really answering the objection objections that you gave,

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it was just sort of like a well, but there's

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these these problems in the Bible. There's this problem this

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is this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, can you still hear me? It's curious. Yeah. And

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by the way they were saying, the volumes may be

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a little low on their end. I'm just watching comments,

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so I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'll try to turn it up here as much as

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I can.

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Speaker 2: Hear let me. First of all, that was my first

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public debate, and Shaverir was a seasoned debater. I would

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have done some things differently now, but that's fine. I'm

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my work critic. I don't like to hear myself from

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watch myself now and hindsight being twenty twenty, what does

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shiver like to do? And this is one thing you

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can't fall for? And I say this because I want

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to see more people Orthodox, whoever they are, I mean

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Catholic Trinitarians get into this field and win people to

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Christ whyle the grace of God's Holy Spirit. Now, they

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will rarely engage in a debate where it's just exclusively

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on Islam. They have to always mix in two topics together.

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For example, Shibrali Bible of the chron two topics in one,

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toheat or Trinity two topics in one, because that gives

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him the opportunity to not address difficult questions and focus

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on attacking the Bible. So now I've challenged Shibra Ali

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and others debate me, but I no longer fall for

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their tactics because I learn if we're going to do

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if we're going to do Trinity or Toheed or the

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Bible of the Chron two separate topics. One is the Bible,

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God's word, one is the Chron. But we're not going

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to combine both because you see what he did even

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though I brought all that material from his primary sources,

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and at that time, the field of textra criticism in

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the chronic manuscripts was still green. It was something that

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wasn't accessible to the late person. Right now, glory to God,

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because of the Internet and the work of Jay Smith,

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that there's someone that you should invite on chronic manuscripts.

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You need to get Jay Smith involved because he's in

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master at the chronic manuscripts and the thousands of variants

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and showing there is no extent Kuran that's identical to

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the Arabic Koran that is used to translate chrons in English,

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because the particular Arabic text that Muslims use now was

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only standardized and collated in nineteen twenty four, Cairo, Egypt.

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Prior to that, you will not find any Arabic manuscript

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of the Qoran that's identical to what they have today.

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So now if I debate them, it's going to be

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one topic. We thoroughly deal with that, not two topics

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in one. But as you rightly know, what he did

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was he ignored my objection showing that if we're going

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to apply your criterion, what's your criterion? Variant readings means

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the Texas corrupt. We can't trust it, we can't know

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what it originally says. Well, if you're going to play

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that game, your traditions and even your extent manuscripts, bury

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the kron because the Koran has thousands and thousands of variants,

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and in it's a text that's actually earlier, meaning the Bible,

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the books of the Old Testament predate Christ. The books

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of the New Testament are first century. But the Koran

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supposedly was composed in the seventh century six hundred, so

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it's much earlier, so we'd expect less variants. However, what

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we find in the tradition and the extent manuscripts, it

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has thousands and thousands of variant readings. Showing there wasn't

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any one standard Quran. So if Shaber Ali and the

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other Muslim polemicist like Paul Williams, whom you schooled by

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the grace of God, are consistent, they're going to have

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to reject the kron But again, they are consistently inconsistent.

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We use unequal weights and measures. What's good for you

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is not good for them. So this is the problem

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of dealing with Muslim polemics. But this is why we

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need to take control of the debate. Now, let them

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dictate how the debate will be run or the criterion

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that will be used. One criterion for you, another criterion

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for me. So we need to get on board and

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we need to control the discussion for the glory of

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Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great point. One problem I've noticed that

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relates to that is we've had I think maybe six

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or seven now, pretty lengthy debates with Muslims in my discord,

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and a pattern that I see is the idea that

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we only will trust the Bible or the Old Testament

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insofar as the Qur'an tells us that it's not corrupted. However,

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what I've noticed is that there's at no point in

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this scheme ever, any clear criteria in terms of epistemic

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criteria to know which of the texts are legitimate and

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which ones are corrupted. So it's just sort of arbitrary.

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And so they'll say, ah, you see here this text

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teaches a lah Isaiah says is one he will give

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his glory to no other. Oh, but wait when I

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go to another text, Oh, that's corrupted because it doesn't

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go along with Islam. So it begs the question to

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know which of these texts are and are not corrupted,

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And there's no way to know. It's just arbitrary, it

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seems to me.

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Speaker 2: Their argument is And by the way, because you're thinking

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on a higher level, it's going to be very very

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hard for you to find a Muslim that's going to

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match you on a philosophical level. Those Muslims who are

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philosophically trained are not doing polemics or debates. The people

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that are doing polemics debates are the lay Muslims are

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not qualified, even according to Islam, to be discussing Islam.

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So if you ever want to engage in a rigorous

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philosophical discussion, you'd have to search out the HUMSI Usus

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or the ten Winter of Islam, not Paul Williams, not

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Ann Rashid. You're talking on a level where they need

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someone to interpret for them. When you talk about pistemic consistency,

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it's like, now, for those kind of Muslims, this is

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what they're going to tell you. They'll tell you that

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the chron is el for Khan, right, and they're even Muslims.

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In the chat they can correct me and show me

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where I'm wrong. They'll say, because the chron is elfor Khan,

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the Arabic word for Khan means criterion. They say that

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the Koran becomes a criterion to determine what parts of

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the Bible are true and what parts of the Bible

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are corrupt. In other words, if there's a statement in

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the Bible where Jesus or his followers or Moses says

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something that goes against chron, then according to them, Jesus

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could not have said it because the kron says Jesus

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is a Muslim. So it's circular in its argumentation. But again,

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like I said, the glorious thing about Islam is that

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it's consistently inconsistent. That's what makes Islam miraculous, and that

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people think it's a miracle, and they don't mind using

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inconsistent arguments and using their criteria inconsistently. But with that said,

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any time a passage echoes Islamic theology, that's true when

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you say, how do you know? Because the Kran tells

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us the prophets before Muhammad were monotheist in the same

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sense that Muhammad was. In other words, they were unitarians.

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But here's what's problematic. Even with that, if you read

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the Koran in isolation from later tradition, because the majority

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Muslims are Sunny, they don't read the Koran on its

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own merits right. They read the Koran in light of

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the Sunni tradition, traditions attributed Muhammad, some of which are

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written one hundred years after has reported death, sometimes two

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hundred years. And how Islamic theology evolved, and they evolved

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this concept called toheed. Now Tohed, the Arabic word Tahed,

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is not so much monotheism as its unitarianism. And in

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their view, Allah is a singular consciousness. Now, they don't

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like to use the term person because to them, person

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is a wrong use of a term for Allah, because

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person to them means someone finite temporal composed of matter,

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but for lack of a better term, they believe as

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a singular person. But here's what's ironic. If you actually

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read the Koran carefully and contextually. And I have a

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standing challenge to Muslims, and they're listening to me right now.

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Bring even your scholars. I'm the Yusuf yes er Kati.

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Bring them. Here's my challenge. Debate me on whether the

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Koran teaches toheed has later developed. If you actually read

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the Koran on its own merit, the Koran has a

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convoluted war view of a trinity of sorts. It's a

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Satanic counterfeit I call it. It's a Islamic trinity. And

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Allah is not a singular consciousness. You can demonstrate this

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from the text of the chron But once you read

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the Koran light of later tradition, they're going to explain

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all these passages away. And I can easily demonstrate examples

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in the kron because don't forget Jay Muhammad is hearing

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Christians and Jews, and he's aping much of what they

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believe in order to deceive them and to thinking that

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he's a prophet. So he's going to say a lot

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of things that they believe. For example, could you imagine

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a Christian giving Muhammad a serious hearing if he said

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Mary did not give birth to Jesus while she is

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a virgin. No Christian would listen to him. Could you

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imagine a Christian saying that Muhammed or giving Muhammed an

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audience who says Jesus in no miracles, They'll say, you

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know what, You're a fraud, Get out of our face.

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So Muhammad and I believe he was inspired by an

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evil spirit of not saying himself. And we can get

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into that evidence if you want. Muhammad being a good salesman,

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he wants to affirm enough Christian truth to get Christians

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to then listen to him. Mary. This is in the Quran,

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chapter three, verse forty two. Mary is the greatest woman

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Allah created. Mary was absolutely pure, free of all blemishes

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and imperfections. Mary is the only woman mentioned by name

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in the Quran, the only woman mentioned by name in

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the Qoran. Women are not mentioned by name. Mary is

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the only woman that has a chapter named in their honor,

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so that in the Medium chapter nineteen, Jesus and Mary

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the only two human beings whom Satan was unable to

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touch an effect and harm when they were born. Because

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there's a tradition attributed to Muhammad. He says, Satan touches

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all the children of Adam when they're born, with the

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exception of Mary and her son. So he says so

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many things that Christians at that time would agree. And

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in fact, here's what's ironic. Here's what's ironic, because Muhammad

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is not dealing with Protestantism. He's dealing with these churches

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and these Christian groups, whether the Orthodox, Catholic, the Miofice,

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whatever it is. He affirms the perpetual virginity of Mary

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in Islam. Her name is Albertun. Albertum means the virgin.

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In Islam, Mary is a perpetual virgin, came out of virgin,

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gave birth to Christ as a virgin, remained a virgin,

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and as a virgin in heaven. Now here's where it

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gets a little blasphemous, and I don't want to upset Christians.

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There are traditions attributed to Muhammad where at the last day,

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on the day of Resurrection, when Muslims enter Genda Paradise,

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they're going to be married to what they call hoodis

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these maidens. Now there's a tradition, and unfortunately I even

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hate to repeat it, where the blessed mother of our Lord,

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the blessed mother of the Lord, will be married off

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to Muhammad because she's a righteous woman and Muhammad is

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righteous and deserves to be her husband. In Jenna, utter

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blasphemy and disgusting. But with that said, up until that day,

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which will never happen, because Muhammad is in hell under

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the feet of Jesus, Mary is viewed as a virgin.

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They don't know about Joseph. They don't know about Joseph

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being betrothed to her. I mean, I understand that even

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though he's betrothed. Their tradition that says that they didn't

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consummate the marriage. But he doesn't even know that. He

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doesn't know about a Joseph because he's not mentioned in

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the Koran. It's Mary and her son. And then there's

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an allusion to the assumption of Mary into heaven. And

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this allusion, it's not explicit, it's implicit. It's found in

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chapter twenty three, verse fifty of the Koran, where it

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says Mary and her son were made a sign and

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they were taken into a high, lofty place. Now the

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Muslim commentators are all over the map. What does that mean?

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But I know what it means because Muhammed is aping

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Christian theology. Mary was assumed the dormitionion right into heaven

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where Jesus reigns as king of kings and lord lords.

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So what am I getting at? Muhammed is aping these

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things in order to get Christians to say, Man, this

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guy agrees a lot with us, So let's hear him out,

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and mama's to see I honor marry in Jesus. Now

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here's the message except me as as messengers. So this

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is why you find in the Koran aping of the Trinity,

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aping of Christology, right mariology, because he's trying to and

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over the Christians. So he wants to say enough truth

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that Christians agree with, but then mix it in with

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his lies and deceit and falsehood. This is why in

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the Koran, Allah is not uni personal if you let

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the Koran speak and not read it in light and

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the lens of later Islamic theology.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we have one of our guys as one of

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our apologists. His name is Kai, and he's got a

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great channel and he actually put together about a twenty

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minute video on that topic where he was showing the

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first generation beliefs right after the formation of the Koran,

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the first few generations of Islam, that the beliefs were

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very similar in many ways to Christianity in that it

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was trying to be repackaged perhaps and it, like you said,

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aped and he actually shows that as well from a

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lot of different texts. So I think Lewis is going

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to put that video for Kai in the chat, but

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that makes perfect sense of what you were saying. That

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backs up what he puts in that video.

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Speaker 2: I just subscribed to channel I just found Orthodox Shad.

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I was impressed by this young Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a sharp guy. Yeah. So on that topic.

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One thing I've wondered too, and I want to get

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your take on this is it seems to me that

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whenever I try to get into the topic of the

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of God's simplicity in this theology in Islam, there's a

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two ways that people take it. They either go on

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a really extreme route where they sometimes not always, but

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sometimes want to deny that God is absolutely simple, and

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they want to make distinctions in God, and so they'll

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speak of well, the attributes are distinct from his essence

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in some way, or there's an eternal Qur'an that exists

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alongside Allah, or they start to make these distinctions and

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then turn around and say, but there's not really distinctions,

473
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,640
or the distinctions are real, but they're not the same

474
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,079
as Allah. So it seems to me to get a

475
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,640
little fuzzy. And my point is just to say there

476
00:25:35,759 --> 00:25:38,440
that a lot of the times the problems that they

477
00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:40,960
attribute to us about the Trinity, when we actually ask

478
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,400
about distinctions in Allah, they actually have the same problem.

479
00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:46,640
They're not talking about three persons. But they'll turn around

480
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,279
and say, well, the attributes are not identical to Allah's essence.

481
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,960
But you see, what I'm saying is that they don't

482
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,640
really escape the dilemma that they think they put us

483
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,559
in because we ask them the same thing and they

484
00:25:57,599 --> 00:25:58,079
don't know.

485
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,400
Speaker 2: Yes, you're on it. In fact, if you studies the

486
00:26:03,519 --> 00:26:06,680
history of Islam, Muslims had their own version of arianism,

487
00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:10,400
the Mutesalites, and you'll find them in the ninth century

488
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,640
where they were influenced by Greek philosophy and logic right,

489
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,880
Kadam right, And so they actually argued you cannot distinguish

490
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,079
the essence from the attributes of the law because you

491
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,440
inevitably end up with a plurality of divine entities and

492
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:27,960
violate the unity of a law. So they argued along

493
00:26:28,079 --> 00:26:34,119
those He threw a very prominent Islamic theologian in prison

494
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,640
and whipped him. Sorry, we're buffering.

495
00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, it says it's reconnected.

496
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 2: It says it's so Mutim who succeeded Moun. These are

497
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:50,119
all muteslite calybs. He threw a very prominent Islamic theologian

498
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,079
in prison and whipped him. And there is an Islamic

499
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,559
school named after him, it's the hen Badi School Ahmed

500
00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,039
ibin Henbelt. And the reason why he was thrown in

501
00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:03,240
prison because you refuse to say the Koran is created.

502
00:27:03,319 --> 00:27:06,319
Because the Teslites were saying, when you say the Koran

503
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,079
is uncreated, then you are imitating the Christians and what

504
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,000
they say about Jesus being the eternal logos, and so

505
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,720
what grounds do you have to object to what they're saying,

506
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,039
because you're no better than them. But they insisted no,

507
00:27:19,519 --> 00:27:22,519
the Koran being calam a law, speech of a law

508
00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:27,559
is uncreated, even though it's not identical Tola. So you

509
00:27:27,599 --> 00:27:31,759
can't say that Allah became a book. Still it's not

510
00:27:31,839 --> 00:27:33,960
other than them, so they came up with with the

511
00:27:34,039 --> 00:27:37,960
fancy terminology. The attributes of a law are not a law,

512
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,400
but they are not other than a law. Right, so

513
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,400
they're not a law, but they're not other than him.

514
00:27:44,519 --> 00:27:47,440
And they would say bill a kaif bill o kate

515
00:27:47,519 --> 00:27:49,960
means Allah knows, we don't know. So now they're appealing

516
00:27:50,039 --> 00:27:53,680
to mystery. But when we do that, no, you can't

517
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,720
do that, right, So Ahmed ibn Hunbaal was whipped and

518
00:27:56,759 --> 00:27:58,799
thrown in jail because he said, no, the crown is

519
00:27:58,799 --> 00:28:01,720
not created now then, actually, who want out? The Sunnis do.

520
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:07,880
But ironically you'll find remnants of mutezl like theology in

521
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,119
the Shia sect. You will have Shiah Muslims as saying

522
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,960
we don't distinguish the attributes from the essence because of

523
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,680
that problem that once you say there's a plurality, then

524
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,680
you are violating a Luh's unity. So they're all over

525
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,920
the map. But the majority Muslims are Sunni Muslims. So

526
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:27,920
when you have a Sunny Muslim in the chat and

527
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,039
I've done this, I've actually asked the Sunni Muslims these

528
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,359
questions and they end up admitting you're right, we have

529
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,920
a trinity of our own. So if we have problems

530
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,559
with your trinity, we need to eject Islam. In fact,

531
00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:42,440
I did in one of my YouTube sessions about two

532
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,079
years ago. It's recorded on my YouTube session. There was

533
00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:47,319
a Muslim in Paltalk and I asked them questions and

534
00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:49,519
you can see you can see the comments say you're right,

535
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,880
we have a trinity of our own, and I need

536
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,720
to stop attacking Christians for their trinity. And that was

537
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,359
the last I heard of them. So the Sunni Muslims

538
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:02,039
have no grounds to object theologically logically to the trinity

539
00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:05,160
being a violation of the unity of God because they

540
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,480
have a trinity of their own. We simply mentioned the

541
00:29:07,559 --> 00:29:09,960
kron If I talk about the spirit in the Koran,

542
00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:11,920
they'll have even more problems.

543
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,039
Speaker 1: Well, that brings me to the next question, which is

544
00:29:16,119 --> 00:29:20,319
the names. Okay, the divine names. Of course, the classic

545
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,720
treatise of Saint Dionysius on the Divine Names is very

546
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,119
important in Orthodox theology, and what he tried to outline

547
00:29:27,119 --> 00:29:29,720
there was how do we speak about God with human

548
00:29:29,799 --> 00:29:34,039
language created phrases and terms, and what's normative for us

549
00:29:34,079 --> 00:29:38,559
and our tradition is analogy. We do use analogical predication,

550
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,200
and that just means that if we think about God

551
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,440
as father, if we think about God as judge, if

552
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,799
we think about God as merciful, we are thinking about

553
00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:50,640
the created categories. And we're not identifying God with created categories,

554
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,000
but we're saying that He is like those things in

555
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,480
his actions. The way he operates with us is like

556
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,920
a father, is like a judge, And that's just kind

557
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,160
of basic analog logical predication for us. They're applicable to

558
00:30:03,319 --> 00:30:07,000
God's attributes, to God's energies in the Orthodox conception. But

559
00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:09,000
what I've noticed in a lot of the Islamic debates

560
00:30:09,039 --> 00:30:12,599
that I've had and discussions is that they will stress

561
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,799
the transcendence of God such that he doesn't even seem

562
00:30:16,839 --> 00:30:19,319
to be able Allah in that conception to enter into

563
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,240
the creative world at all, to have any interactions. And

564
00:30:22,279 --> 00:30:23,799
so then when we start to think about, well, how

565
00:30:23,799 --> 00:30:27,240
does he actually relay the truths of the Qur'an to

566
00:30:27,519 --> 00:30:30,640
us in a created world, this becomes problematic because guess what,

567
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,720
we're told that Allah is not in any way like

568
00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:36,200
creatures at all. So if he's not in any way

569
00:30:36,279 --> 00:30:38,200
like creatures at all. Then we use when we use

570
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,079
these terms that Allah as merciful, Allah as judge, or

571
00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:43,759
whatever terms we're using, they don't really match up at all.

572
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:48,599
Speaker 2: Yeap, Just to piggyback what you said, Remember I said

573
00:30:48,599 --> 00:30:52,079
what Islamic theology later teaches in contrasts with the Koran

574
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:57,720
teaches and even traditions attributed to Muhammad. Those Muslims who

575
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,519
say that Allah cannot enter his creation, he brought out

576
00:31:00,519 --> 00:31:02,480
the dilemma, Well, if he can't under his creation, how

577
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,119
can he communicate with his creatures? After all, even if

578
00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:09,799
we take the Islamic understanding that Gabriel transmitted the Koran

579
00:31:10,839 --> 00:31:14,279
to Muhammad, because that's the Islamic tradition, Gabriel was the

580
00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:19,200
medium that communicated the speech of a Lot to Muhammad,

581
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,759
But Gabriel is still a creature. He's still within creation.

582
00:31:22,599 --> 00:31:24,920
For him to transmit the speech of Allah to Muhammad,

583
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,720
that means Allah has to interact with Gabriel in creation

584
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,559
for that to be possible. So, if Allah's so transcendent

585
00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:32,680
and separate from creation that he can interact with it,

586
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:37,319
then how does he communicate the Qoran to any creature

587
00:31:37,319 --> 00:31:40,680
within creation? If he's not able to eat enter creation

588
00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:45,960
and still transcend it. Now, that's not a dilemma found

589
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,720
in the Koran or in the tradition, because in the

590
00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:53,680
Koran you will find Allah enters his creation and he

591
00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:57,680
actually manifests his presence in creation, and you find that

592
00:31:57,799 --> 00:32:01,519
in the Hadiz. Now hadiz, let me let me translate

593
00:32:01,559 --> 00:32:04,039
some of these terms, because I'm using terms, and I'm

594
00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:06,039
assuming that most people know these terms. But again, let

595
00:32:06,079 --> 00:32:08,400
me not assume that. Let me just define Hadid simply

596
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,680
means report narration, And when I talk about the hadiths,

597
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,279
I'm talking about those reports narrations attributed to Muhammad and

598
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,160
or his companions, and the most authentic collection of narrations

599
00:32:20,079 --> 00:32:23,920
are Sahi Bukhari and Sai Muslim for the Sunny Muslims. Now, unfortunately,

600
00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:28,039
Shia do not subscribe to these traditions. They have their

601
00:32:28,079 --> 00:32:31,559
own traditions, and for the most part, those traditions have

602
00:32:31,319 --> 00:32:34,119
been haven't been translated in English. Some have, So if

603
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,920
you really want to work among the Shia, you really

604
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,839
have to learn Arabic to learn their sources, because, unlike

605
00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:42,640
the Sunni Muslims, they have been translated their primary sources

606
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,400
in English. Some have, but not most So, if you're

607
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,519
dealing with Shah, you gotta learn Arabic. But if you're

608
00:32:48,519 --> 00:32:51,920
dealing with Sydney, Arabic helps. But thank god, the Sunneys

609
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,920
have translated their major works into English, not all, but

610
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,039
the major works like Sai Si Muslim. Now, let me

611
00:32:58,079 --> 00:33:01,640
read to you what mah Ahamad said about Allah entering

612
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:06,160
creation Salbukharti. So that's why I want you jay make

613
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,559
a distinction between what they tell you what their sources

614
00:33:08,599 --> 00:33:11,480
tell you. So to be an effective apologist, not only

615
00:33:11,519 --> 00:33:14,079
refute them philosophically and show them the conundrum they're in.

616
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,519
By saying that Allah cannot interact with creation, and there's

617
00:33:17,559 --> 00:33:22,039
nothing analogous olah. We're not saying equivocal univocal, but analogous olah.

618
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,400
It also contradicts your own Koran and your traditions, because

619
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,359
your Kuran and traditions don't agree with your theology. Here's

620
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:35,240
the prove Saldbuharti, Voluminine Salbukhati, Volum nine, number five eighty six,

621
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:40,559
narrated Abu Houraira, Allah's apostle said, every night, when it

622
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,480
is the last third of the night, our Lord, the Superior,

623
00:33:44,839 --> 00:33:50,640
the blessed descends to the nearest heaven and says, is

624
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,480
there anyone to invoke me that I may respond to

625
00:33:53,519 --> 00:33:56,640
his invocation? Is there anyone to ask me so that

626
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,920
I may grant him his request? Is there anyone asking

627
00:34:00,119 --> 00:34:02,480
my forgiveness so that I may forgive him? Now I

628
00:34:02,519 --> 00:34:06,160
can repeat other versions of this report, but I think

629
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,400
you get the point. Allah, who's above the seven heavens

630
00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,960
at the last third of every night, descends to the

631
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:19,119
lowest heaven, right, and ask is there anyone to invoke me?

632
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:22,960
How could Allah do this if he cannot enter creation

633
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,760
while still being transcendent. So this is a problem for them,

634
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,800
not just from a Christian perspective, but from a Koranic

635
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,519
perspective and the Sunnah. If you let Muhammad speak and

636
00:34:33,559 --> 00:34:36,760
the Koran speak, neither the kron nor Muhammad teach this

637
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,960
view of Islamic theology. And that's what I was saying.

638
00:34:39,119 --> 00:34:41,880
That's my challenge to the Muslims. Debate me on your

639
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,599
kron and Sunnah doesn't teach your theology. It doesn't. I'm sorry. Now,

640
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,480
let me give you example from the chron example from

641
00:34:48,519 --> 00:34:54,119
the Koran that Allah actually enters creation, interacts with his creatures, right,

642
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,400
I'm gonna give you this steal. I'm just gonna give

643
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,079
you one chapter twenty seven versus seven tonight. Now, this

644
00:34:59,079 --> 00:35:02,480
passage really trouble Muslims because they try to find a

645
00:35:02,519 --> 00:35:04,920
way around it. But the language is clear, and this

646
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,960
is what Muslims keep telling me. The Kron is clear Arabic,

647
00:35:09,159 --> 00:35:12,280
and the Koran repeatedly says that it is a book

648
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,840
that explains everything in detail. It provides detailed explanation of everything,

649
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,079
full exposition of everything, all its verses, and I'm not

650
00:35:20,119 --> 00:35:22,280
making it up. For the sake of time, I'll just

651
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,280
rent off some passages and people can write this down

652
00:35:26,199 --> 00:35:28,719
to see that the Koran makes this assertion that it

653
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,920
is a book that explains everything in detail, meaning you

654
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,039
don't need anything outside of the Kron, almost like a

655
00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:40,039
sola kurana. Right ironically, write down chapter six verse one

656
00:35:40,119 --> 00:35:42,679
fourteen for those of you thinking notes because I'm not

657
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,719
gonna look at it. Chapter six verse one fourteen, Chapter

658
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,119
twelve verse one eleven, chapter six verse one fourteen, Chapter

659
00:35:50,159 --> 00:35:53,440
twelve verse one one eleven, and do include chapter ten

660
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,000
verse thirty seven, Chapter ten verse thirty seven, Chapter sixteen

661
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,480
verse eighty nine, Chapter sixteen verse eighty nine, and then

662
00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:03,679
finally chapter forty one, verses three and four. To see

663
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,519
that I'm not making this up, and they are Muslims

664
00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:08,519
in the chat, prove that I'm lying. I'm esquoting your sources.

665
00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:11,360
Now watch this this one. I love this one. Chapter

666
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,679
twenty seven Versus seven to nine. This is recounting the

667
00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:19,679
Exodus where Moses encounters the Angel of the Lord. Can

668
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,320
I believe you and Jesus and Bush right?

669
00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:26,039
Speaker 1: Hold on just one a second. Yes, I want you

670
00:36:26,079 --> 00:36:27,559
to keep going, but I'm gonna have to step away

671
00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:29,039
just a second and turn the lights on because their

672
00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:29,679
sun's going down.

673
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,519
Speaker 2: Keep going, Okay, Now, what I'm about to quote for

674
00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:39,079
the people listening is the Koran's perversion of the divine

675
00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:43,800
encounter between Moses and God at the Burning Bush. The

676
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:45,760
Kuran recounts in more than one place, but I want

677
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,679
you to catch the language that chron uses when Moses

678
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,000
said to his people, I observe a fire Chapter twenty seven,

679
00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:55,639
Verses seven to nine, when Moses said to his people,

680
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,960
I observe a fire and will bring you news of it,

681
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,320
or I'll bring you a flaming brand. Perhaps you shall

682
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,199
warm yourselves. So when he came to it. He was

683
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,719
called blessed is he who's in the fire, and he

684
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,679
who's about it, Glory bet a law, the Lord of

685
00:37:12,679 --> 00:37:16,280
all being Moses. Behold, it is i Allah, the Almighty

686
00:37:16,639 --> 00:37:18,800
the all wives. Let me repeat that part again, or

687
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:22,519
say so people can see. Blessed is he who's in

688
00:37:22,599 --> 00:37:25,119
the fire, and who's about it? Well, the one who's

689
00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:27,920
around the fire is Moses. Who in the world is

690
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,320
in the fire? The one speaking, and the one speaking says,

691
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,079
I am a Law, the Almighty, the all wise. So

692
00:37:35,159 --> 00:37:37,159
now my question to the Muslims who are listening here,

693
00:37:37,159 --> 00:37:39,920
because there are plenty Muslims here, can you explain to

694
00:37:40,039 --> 00:37:45,119
me how does Allah manifest himself in this fire, in

695
00:37:45,199 --> 00:37:49,280
this tree and speak audibly from this tree to Moses

696
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,360
and identify himself. I'm the blessed one in the tree,

697
00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:55,199
You're the blessed one around me, and I am a Law,

698
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,360
the Almighty, the all wives. That's a plain reading of

699
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:02,480
the text. You can't get around it, right, And I

700
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,960
can give you more, But that's my point. What later

701
00:38:05,079 --> 00:38:08,320
Islamic theologians came up with and what the chron and

702
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:09,719
had these teach are not the same.

703
00:38:10,159 --> 00:38:14,159
Speaker 1: Specifically, the chron Now this reminds me too of another

704
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,559
thing that's come up a few times in the discussions,

705
00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:18,800
which is that there seems to have been maybe a

706
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:22,480
period or maybe a splinter faction or a school in

707
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,760
the early phases that maybe still exists in some areas

708
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,920
that had the anthropomorphic view that God, the Father Allah

709
00:38:30,079 --> 00:38:32,440
was some sort of body, and this is why we

710
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,960
get these phrases like the knees of Allah or something

711
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:35,360
like this.

712
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, in fact, the gentleman that you had a discussion with,

713
00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:42,679
not Paul Williams. The other gentleman, Nazi.

714
00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: That was his name.

715
00:38:45,079 --> 00:38:47,679
Speaker 2: If I recall correctly. I may be wrong, but I

716
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:51,840
believe he's a Selafi Muslim. Celafi Islam is a branch

717
00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:55,480
of Sunnya Islam. Now I have to be clear. Not

718
00:38:55,559 --> 00:38:57,599
all Sunnis are Celfi. So I want to just be

719
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,599
clear so that Christians understand, just like in Christianity, we're

720
00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:04,880
not monolithic. We have different branches of Christianity. Even in

721
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,239
Sunni Islam. I'm not talking about Sunni Shiyad divide. I'm

722
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,599
talking about Sunni Islam. You have the Selafis and they're

723
00:39:11,639 --> 00:39:14,360
pretty much they subscribe to what's known as the Atheitic creed,

724
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,480
where they take the texts on face value and do

725
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:20,719
not try to allegorize them. But then you have the

726
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,360
Muslim the Sunni Muslims who are ashety slash maturiri. They

727
00:39:25,679 --> 00:39:28,440
would take statements of the crowns that refer to the

728
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,039
eyes of a law, the hands of Allah, the shin

729
00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:35,360
of a Llah, the torso of a law Allah ascending

730
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:40,239
above the throne as metaphors. They're not literal. Eyes would

731
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,119
mean that a lass, hands would mean his power, his strength,

732
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,199
so on and so forth. But the celafis and Adnan Rashid,

733
00:39:49,199 --> 00:39:53,079
who's another famous Muslim apologist, he's a Celafi, And I

734
00:39:53,119 --> 00:39:54,960
believe Nazim is a selfie, and I want to put

735
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,559
words in his mouth unless he's changed his positions recanted.

736
00:39:59,159 --> 00:40:03,400
They would tell you know, these statements, we take them

737
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,239
at face value. We do not interpret them in a

738
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:14,039
manner where they're merely allegorical expressions denoting the sight of God,

739
00:40:14,119 --> 00:40:18,480
the knowledge of God. No, No Allah has eyes, Allah has hands,

740
00:40:19,079 --> 00:40:22,800
Allah has a torso, a waste shin. But it's unlike

741
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,719
anything in creation. So that's how they get away with it.

742
00:40:27,039 --> 00:40:30,840
He has a body of some sort. But this body

743
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:35,559
is unlike anything in creation, and we do not allegorize them.

744
00:40:36,159 --> 00:40:39,480
We take them at face value. We know what eyes mean,

745
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,280
but we don't know exactly how Allah's eyes are. They're

746
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,360
unlike anything in creation, but he has eyes. Now here's

747
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,000
what's ironic, these Selafi Muslims, if they're gonna be honest

748
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,440
with you and they're hoping you don't know this. So

749
00:40:53,519 --> 00:40:55,639
next time, Jay, when you do one of them say

750
00:40:55,679 --> 00:40:58,199
is it not true if you're a Celafie that Allah

751
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,000
only has two right hands? He doesn't have a right

752
00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:04,960
or a left hand. Why because the left hand represents

753
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,440
evil and Satan is left handed and a lot is

754
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,880
free of all imperfection, So he only has two right hands.

755
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,599
Speaker 1: That's a bizarre argument. But yeah, it's definitely something else

756
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,639
that should be brought up. If that's an actual argument. Wow. Interesting.

757
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: Is I'm not lying to you?

758
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,280
Speaker 1: No, I believe you. I believe you. Yeah, Because one

759
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,840
thing I've noticed is in the last eight months a

760
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:32,440
year of people coming into discord and these debates that

761
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,400
we've been having, is that I don't mean this as

762
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,000
if this itself was an argument to disprove the position,

763
00:41:38,039 --> 00:41:41,639
because I recognize within as you said, what's broadly termed Christianity,

764
00:41:41,639 --> 00:41:44,800
there's many, many different schools of thought. Mean, I understand that,

765
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,840
but it also seems that within Islam there's many, many

766
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,079
different schools. And so one time you'd be hearing an

767
00:41:50,119 --> 00:41:52,719
argument about anthropomorphism and the body of God, and then

768
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,719
you've been hearing an argument about how that's crazy and

769
00:41:54,760 --> 00:42:01,599
that's heresy and idolatry. And if if the appeal of

770
00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:04,559
Islam was supposed to be the simplicity of God and

771
00:42:04,599 --> 00:42:08,360
the simplicity of its precepts, shouldn't we have a clear

772
00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:12,239
conception of who God is in terms of his essence being,

773
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:16,599
you know, purely one. Why is there such a seeming

774
00:42:16,679 --> 00:42:18,280
divide over this question?

775
00:42:19,079 --> 00:42:22,159
Speaker 2: Because most people who are attracted Islam are not taught what

776
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:26,000
Islam teaches or their differences in variations. How many people

777
00:42:26,039 --> 00:42:28,400
you know that converted to Islam knew what they were

778
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,039
getting into. And this is why this is not something

779
00:42:31,159 --> 00:42:35,840
I'm saying just type in YouTube. Muslim apostates, even Muslims,

780
00:42:36,599 --> 00:42:40,400
are taken aback and shocked at the number of converts

781
00:42:40,559 --> 00:42:42,639
Islam that are leaving Islam, and even people who are

782
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,559
raising Muslim homes, they are shocked, and they even one

783
00:42:45,599 --> 00:42:47,599
Muslim scholar said it's a tidal wave and there's nothing

784
00:42:47,639 --> 00:42:50,239
we can do. And there are statistics that say that

785
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,800
when people convert to Islam, typically the majority of them

786
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,800
leave Islam within five years because then they get to

787
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,440
see what Islam is truly like, because when they're taught Isla,

788
00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:06,199
they're taught this western eyed, contextualized, sanitized Islam that makes

789
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,360
Christianity look irrational and Islam so simple. And again, I

790
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:12,320
don't want people to take my word for it. Thank

791
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,960
God for the Internet and thank God for YouTube. Type

792
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,679
in Christian converts to Islam, Christian converts to Islam, I

793
00:43:19,679 --> 00:43:23,440
don't anyway. That's another point. These Christians that convert will

794
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,199
tell you that they had already reached a point in

795
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,719
their understanding. And this is common unless it's a woman.

796
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:32,679
And I'm again, I'm not trying to be disrespectful. A

797
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,199
woman who fell in love with a Muslim man and

798
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:38,079
converted because she loved a man, And that happens too.

799
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:40,119
This why Muslims to tell you the highest number of

800
00:43:40,159 --> 00:43:44,119
converts Islam are women, Well, yeah, because if you go

801
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,840
back and look, these women fall in love with Muslim

802
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,920
men and then they start justifying believe in Islam to

803
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,239
be with these men. But put that aside. Those who

804
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,440
do convert to Islam. This is what you're going to

805
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,480
find common among all of them, common among all of them.

806
00:43:58,519 --> 00:44:00,360
I came to a point where the trinity it makes

807
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,320
sense to me. How can three be one, one b

808
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:06,159
three and then Jesus being God and men? That makes this?

809
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,039
How can the infinite and the finite unite? Or how

810
00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:12,239
could God die? And where is the justice in the

811
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,760
innocent dying for the guilty. None of these doctrines made

812
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,519
sense to me. So they had already come to a

813
00:44:17,559 --> 00:44:20,920
point in which they thought these doctrines were irrational and

814
00:44:21,039 --> 00:44:25,480
inconsistent with scripture. So they were primed for Some Muslim

815
00:44:25,519 --> 00:44:28,559
preachers say, Allah is only one. He's not father, SONI Spirit,

816
00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:31,199
and he's not Jesus. Jesus is a messenger, can die

817
00:44:31,199 --> 00:44:35,199
for your sins. And that's the appeal, because it's a

818
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:40,559
very watered down Western eyes contextualized Islam that they're presenting

819
00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:42,920
to the masses until they enter it and then they

820
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,719
see for themselves. Oh wow. So there's a group that

821
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,440
says that Allah actually has eyes and two right hands

822
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:53,440
and a shin, and these are not simply allegorical or metaphorical.

823
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,559
They're actually even though they're unlike anything creation. Oh wow,

824
00:44:56,639 --> 00:44:59,679
the chron is eternal, uncreated, and yet the chron is

825
00:44:59,679 --> 00:45:01,639
not all law, but it's not other than a law.

826
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:06,320
Oh that comes after they've taken the pill.

827
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: Interesting, And so that's something we see too in groups

828
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,840
like Mormonism. And you sort of get this outer sphere doctrine,

829
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:15,800
and then when you move into it, you realize, oh,

830
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,119
the grass wasn't actually greener, and there's all of these

831
00:45:19,159 --> 00:45:20,760
problems that I thought I was going to get away

832
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:26,920
from are suddenly here. And I think that's is that

833
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:28,960
what you're getting at that? Let me ask you this one.

834
00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:32,840
What are the problems that usually lead people out of it?

835
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,480
Is it those kind of fundamental contradictions that they didn't

836
00:45:35,639 --> 00:45:37,119
that they're not actually resolved.

837
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,199
Speaker 2: Not only so much the theology, it's also the morality

838
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,280
of Muhammad. Most people that leave, if you hear it,

839
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,199
wasn't so much the theology, because I guess after a

840
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:52,119
while they just buy into okay, well, God is complex

841
00:45:52,199 --> 00:45:55,320
by nature. This is God that I'm okay, I can

842
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,280
live with it. But ironically, when it came to Christian theology.

843
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,079
That was their grounds of rejecting it. A lot of

844
00:46:01,159 --> 00:46:04,280
Muslims leave not so much the theology, and you can again,

845
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:05,719
I don't want people to take my word for it.

846
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:11,559
Search Muslim apostates. They were troubled. They were bothered by

847
00:46:11,679 --> 00:46:20,320
Muhammad's immorality, Muhammad's lust for women, Muhammad's murder sprees and looting.

848
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:27,599
And these were the issues that really bother them, Muhammad's

849
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,440
gross immorality. And I can list them. I mean, so

850
00:46:30,559 --> 00:46:33,719
this is the thing that bothered them. Because again they still,

851
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,559
you know, we believe that they created an image of God.

852
00:46:37,039 --> 00:46:39,920
Those sin affects them and has them effaced it, so

853
00:46:40,039 --> 00:46:42,679
their conscience starts bothering them. How can this man be

854
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,360
a moral example? A fifty four year old man desiring

855
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,679
and having sex with a nine year old and marrying

856
00:46:48,679 --> 00:46:52,119
her and then in the Koran sanctuary sanctioning This is

857
00:46:52,119 --> 00:46:54,320
not just Muhammad's example. This is where the Christians need

858
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:58,920
to wake up. It's not simply Muhammed marrying a nine

859
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,000
year old, a pre pubscent minor, a premature minor. The

860
00:47:03,079 --> 00:47:06,639
Koran sanctions those marriages. It's in chapter sixty five, verse

861
00:47:06,639 --> 00:47:08,719
four of the Koran, and I hope a Muslim here

862
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,599
it says you're lying, it doesn't. I call Islam the

863
00:47:11,639 --> 00:47:17,000
religion of pedophilia because there is no set age when

864
00:47:17,119 --> 00:47:21,360
a maiden is considered mature enough for marriage. You can

865
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,039
marry a girl if she's six or seven. There is

866
00:47:24,079 --> 00:47:27,079
one criterion, however, and this is stated in sixty five vers. Four,

867
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,760
that you can marry a prebebissent, premature child who hasn't

868
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,880
even menstruted. That's in sixty five vers four. There is

869
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,159
one condition. Now I'm going to try to keep it

870
00:47:38,199 --> 00:47:41,880
g rated. The one condition is if she can handle penetration.

871
00:47:42,519 --> 00:47:44,840
If not, then you need to wait and take it

872
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:45,400
easy on her.

873
00:47:46,519 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: That's it.

874
00:47:47,039 --> 00:47:50,039
Speaker 2: So these are the things that drive people out of Islam.

875
00:47:50,079 --> 00:47:54,559
It's not so much theological it's more the immorality, the

876
00:47:54,599 --> 00:47:59,480
gross immorality of Muhammad, which is why you have even Muslims,

877
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,800
when they leave, they just simply become atheist and agnostic.

878
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,079
They just don't believe in God at all. After that

879
00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:07,079
happens because they think all views of God are simply

880
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,760
irrational and fictional. And so if they leave, it's not

881
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,159
because of the complexity in the view of God. It's

882
00:48:13,159 --> 00:48:16,519
because Muhammed is immral And once they're convinced Islam's false,

883
00:48:16,599 --> 00:48:19,400
then all other religions are false because to them, if

884
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,199
there was any religion that had any chance of being true,

885
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,679
it's Islam, Judy's and Christianity forget about it, And that's

886
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:26,480
what happens.

887
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: What do you think is the main reason most people

888
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:34,000
in that situation, or most people in Islam don't buy

889
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,159
into Christianity. Is it ignorance of what the Bible actually teaches.

890
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,119
Let me give you an example. One thing I've noticed

891
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,519
is a lot of ignorance about the actual Old Testament.

892
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,480
For example, if I were to talk about the Old

893
00:48:50,519 --> 00:48:54,960
Testament picturing of the Temple and the purpose of the temple,

894
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,760
and how the Temple was a type of Christ and

895
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:00,320
this kind of stuff, it seems to be completely lost

896
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,800
on every Muslim I've ever talked to. They have no

897
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:04,960
conception of why it would even be necessary, what the

898
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,800
purpose of anything in Leviticus was, or anything that was

899
00:49:09,679 --> 00:49:12,280
you know, typological of Christ, like the Passover, this kind

900
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,039
of stuff. So there seems to be like just no

901
00:49:15,159 --> 00:49:17,679
knowledge of the Old Testament at all. For the most.

902
00:49:19,159 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 2: The reason of the rejection of the Bible is because unfortunately,

903
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:27,360
the rise of liberal critical, unbelieving scholarship that pretty much

904
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:31,559
says that the books of the Bible are anonymous. Some

905
00:49:31,639 --> 00:49:36,119
of them are pseudonymous, not written by the people attributed

906
00:49:36,159 --> 00:49:38,800
to them, Like you're aware of bart Ermann, who's a

907
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,840
darling of Islam and agnostic atheists, the pastoral epistles and Barnman.

908
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,639
By the way, for the Christians here, Bartman didn't invent

909
00:49:45,679 --> 00:49:49,400
these arguments. He's simply making popular the arguments that have

910
00:49:49,519 --> 00:49:53,440
been taught since the rise of liberal critical scholarship in Germany.

911
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,519
And you know this because I know you went to

912
00:49:55,519 --> 00:49:57,119
the seminary and I'm sure you were exposed to this

913
00:49:57,199 --> 00:50:01,000
kind of scholarship. So when you have the West and

914
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,079
you hear from quote unquote scholars of the Christian faith, Yeah,

915
00:50:07,199 --> 00:50:10,119
we don't know who wrote the Pentatude. The Pentaituk is

916
00:50:10,159 --> 00:50:15,039
a patchwork of four documents, you know, the documentary hypothesis

917
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,920
and the gospel writers. They're anonymous. We don't know who

918
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,320
wrote the Gospel attributed to Matthew. These are all statements

919
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:23,960
that come from the later Church, and they're full of

920
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:28,760
irreconcilable contradictions and they're very So pretty much Western scholarship

921
00:50:29,079 --> 00:50:32,840
has destroyed the confidence of people in the Christian faith

922
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,320
and in the authority of the scriptures. So this is

923
00:50:36,599 --> 00:50:39,320
this is what's happening in the West, and so it's

924
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,760
not it's not so much Islam as it is these

925
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,280
so called scholars that supposedly someone even claimed to be Christian. Hey,

926
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,599
I'm Christian, and yet he doesn't believe the authority of scripture,

927
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,119
the preservation of scripture, the inspiration of scripture, and he

928
00:50:54,159 --> 00:50:56,840
doesn't even believe the doctrines of the Trinity, and may

929
00:50:56,880 --> 00:50:59,960
not even believe the bodily resurrection it was spiritual. It's

930
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:05,079
the onslaught of Western scholarship on the Christian faith that's

931
00:51:05,119 --> 00:51:07,519
causing people not to even consider Christianity.

932
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: Do you think that so before the modern period and

933
00:51:10,519 --> 00:51:12,679
the rise of German higher criticism and this kind of

934
00:51:12,679 --> 00:51:16,480
stuff like in the in the older you know, Middle

935
00:51:16,519 --> 00:51:21,400
Ages period, was it just that Christianity was seen as

936
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,079
a Western thing. It was seen as something I mean,

937
00:51:25,079 --> 00:51:27,480
it couldn't be totally Western, because you know, Christianity's been

938
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:29,639
in the East as well. What do you think most

939
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,920
because I've read some of the older medieval Muslim debates,

940
00:51:33,639 --> 00:51:35,559
and they seem to be just pretty arbitrary. They don't

941
00:51:36,079 --> 00:51:38,639
what's the what's the main reason that they that they

942
00:51:38,679 --> 00:51:41,000
wouldn't have adopted even before higher criticism.

943
00:51:41,639 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so if you're talking about the Muslims not adopting it, well,

944
00:51:44,519 --> 00:51:47,960
obviously their commitment to the Koran and Muhammad's prophethood and

945
00:51:48,039 --> 00:51:51,639
that Muhammad cannot be false and therefore Christianity cannot be

946
00:51:51,679 --> 00:51:53,519
true for the most part. But if you actually read

947
00:51:53,559 --> 00:51:57,559
those kinds of scholars those Christian theologians were warriors. They

948
00:51:57,559 --> 00:52:00,519
did a better job, in my view, of decimating Islam

949
00:52:00,599 --> 00:52:03,159
and their arguments and what we find today right, because

950
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,960
that kind of scholarship back then was believing scholarship. You

951
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,559
won't find a Christian theologian questioning Mosaic authorship, will you

952
00:52:11,599 --> 00:52:15,559
find on it? No, you won't find a Christian scholar

953
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,679
or a bishop or a monk questioning the authorship of

954
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,519
the Gospels. These were believing scholars, theologians who believe the

955
00:52:23,519 --> 00:52:25,960
Bibles are to God, and that's why you can see

956
00:52:26,039 --> 00:52:30,480
their arguments what's much more forceful, much more convincing. But

957
00:52:30,559 --> 00:52:32,800
at the end of the day, here's what it comes down.

958
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,079
To If you are committed that Muhammad must be a

959
00:52:36,079 --> 00:52:38,880
prophet and the Koran is a miracle, no amount of

960
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,880
evidence will be sufficient to convince you otherwise. But even

961
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,199
with that said, you did have Muslims converting to the

962
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,800
Christian faith even during that period. So when you ask

963
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,960
me during that period, what could it be, it's their

964
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:55,159
commitment to the Koran being inviolable, the Koran being infallible

965
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,039
because it's the speech of a law. It can't be false,

966
00:52:58,159 --> 00:53:00,599
it can't be corrupted, it can't be false. Of so,

967
00:53:00,679 --> 00:53:04,000
no matter what arguments Christians bring, they are guilty until

968
00:53:04,039 --> 00:53:07,599
proven innocent. After all, Muhammad is a prophet and we

969
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,559
know this to be certainly true. So it's that circular reasoning,

970
00:53:11,559 --> 00:53:15,719
the assumption Muhammed is true. Everything else that contradicts Muhammad

971
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,239
is false. By its very nature, it cannot be true.

972
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:22,679
Speaker 1: Well that's ironic too, because most of the time, the

973
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,519
more scholarly colomn type of approach. They are big fans

974
00:53:26,559 --> 00:53:31,159
of Aristotle and Ariscitylian philosophy in terms of most of

975
00:53:31,199 --> 00:53:34,719
the time rejects circular argumentation because it has a pretty

976
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:39,440
strict series of rule syllogisms, principal non contradict. You can't

977
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,239
do engage in that kind of circularity. And there's the

978
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,000
fact there was a guy on Twitter today who is

979
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,559
trying to argue with me about this, and he was saying, oh,

980
00:53:46,639 --> 00:53:51,199
you affirm circular arguments, and so I'm saying, no, we

981
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:54,320
all affirm circular arguments when we believe that ultimately the

982
00:53:54,559 --> 00:53:57,360
highest authority is God himself. You would do the same

983
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,639
thing I do. But my system doesn't rejects circularity at

984
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,559
a paradigm fundamental level, but your system does. Because you

985
00:54:05,559 --> 00:54:07,679
will say it to us. You can't engage in any

986
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,239
circular argument. You say the Bible is true because the

987
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,719
Bible says it's true, But you do the same thing

988
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:14,800
with the kron Because so everybody does this. That's the point.

989
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,519
Even the atheist says, oh, my reasoning ultimately is the

990
00:54:17,559 --> 00:54:22,119
highest authority principle in the world. It's inescapable at a

991
00:54:22,159 --> 00:54:25,320
paradigm level that everybody kind of eventually comes back to

992
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:29,119
their highest authority. And the question then, I think, is, well,

993
00:54:29,159 --> 00:54:32,239
which system of thought is coherent? That's the way I

994
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:33,400
approach apologetics.

995
00:54:33,599 --> 00:54:36,639
Speaker 2: I like that I see that presupposential apologetics being used

996
00:54:36,639 --> 00:54:41,039
in your argumentation exactly now, but remember this what I said.

997
00:54:41,119 --> 00:54:43,400
I'm going to say, like a broken record, Islam is

998
00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:51,039
gloriously consistently inconsistent. They won't use the same weights and

999
00:54:51,119 --> 00:54:55,440
measures that they apply to critiguing Christianity and Judaism, let's say,

1000
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,239
or any other religion to themselves. That's quote unquote the

1001
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:04,639
beauty of a Slam. Islam is unfalsifiable. So you can

1002
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:05,880
say that can refute.

1003
00:55:05,559 --> 00:55:08,320
Speaker 1: It, it's unfalsifible. Yeah, it's very similar to well, we

1004
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,599
won't go down the road of the papacy. But I

1005
00:55:10,599 --> 00:55:12,199
see that tendency when I have a love.

1006
00:55:12,079 --> 00:55:14,280
Speaker 2: Debates with people Setian war right.

1007
00:55:14,159 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 1: Now, Well, when people talk about the papacy, they'll do

1008
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:21,320
the same kind of unfalsifiable. But that's a different stream.

1009
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:26,559
So what do you think about this objection that I've

1010
00:55:26,599 --> 00:55:29,199
come up with in terms of a lot of Now,

1011
00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:31,920
I brought it up to Paul Williams because he kind

1012
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,039
of fell into this trap where he said, well, anything

1013
00:55:34,079 --> 00:55:36,559
that we say about Allah is true of all law

1014
00:55:36,599 --> 00:55:40,639
from all eternity. And I asked him about the name

1015
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,480
creator because there's a great debate that Athanasius has with

1016
00:55:44,559 --> 00:55:47,440
the Arians where he says that you know, Creator is

1017
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:50,519
not a name, nor can foreknowledge be said of God

1018
00:55:50,559 --> 00:55:53,480
from all eternity because it only relates to the created order.

1019
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:58,280
And most of the Islamic apologists and I brought this

1020
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:02,079
up to tend to fall into that same trip. They say, well,

1021
00:56:03,199 --> 00:56:06,400
Creator is an eternal name, because all the names are eternal,

1022
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:09,679
and so if they're synonymous with Allah from all eternity,

1023
00:56:09,760 --> 00:56:12,719
then I said, well, did he create from all eternity?

1024
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,039
So is there an eternal world that He's created? And

1025
00:56:16,119 --> 00:56:18,039
most of the time I have not gotten a clear answer.

1026
00:56:18,039 --> 00:56:18,800
What would you do?

1027
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,639
Speaker 2: You won't you know why? I say it's wonderful because

1028
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:29,239
Muhammad operated under the assumption that Allah's attributes presupposed relationships.

1029
00:56:30,079 --> 00:56:34,000
And yet because in his thinking, Allah is uni personal

1030
00:56:34,079 --> 00:56:35,800
even though he contradicts himself. And I need to make

1031
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,880
this clear. I need to make this clear. Mohammad wanted

1032
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,159
to say one thing, but he came out saying something else.

1033
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,719
So that people don't get confused when I say that Muhammad,

1034
00:56:45,039 --> 00:56:47,000
because I just got done saying, if you read the Krown,

1035
00:56:47,119 --> 00:56:49,679
you have a trinity of sorts. The reason why you

1036
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:51,800
have that is not because Mohammad wanted to have a

1037
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,320
trinity of sorts. But because he was an ignoramus, I

1038
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,559
have to be honest. He was aping things without understanding,

1039
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,599
even though he made statements that contradict the very things

1040
00:57:00,599 --> 00:57:03,239
that he took for granted to be true, because his

1041
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,000
aim was to do Christians and Jews to follow him.

1042
00:57:06,199 --> 00:57:10,039
So he'd affirm enough, let's say truth of Christianity Judaism,

1043
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,519
but then sandwich it with his denials and thereby creating

1044
00:57:13,559 --> 00:57:16,440
contradictions in his chron Let me give you example what

1045
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:18,480
I mean. He wants to say that Jesus is just

1046
00:57:18,519 --> 00:57:20,519
a man, but then he comes out saying things in

1047
00:57:20,599 --> 00:57:27,440
the churn about Jesus where he's aping Johannai logos christology right.

1048
00:57:27,679 --> 00:57:29,679
So he doesn't want to do that. He wants to

1049
00:57:29,679 --> 00:57:32,239
say Jesus is a man, but by taking what he

1050
00:57:32,239 --> 00:57:35,639
hears Christians saying about Jesus being the logos right, he

1051
00:57:35,719 --> 00:57:38,079
ends up making part of the Koran and therefore bearing

1052
00:57:38,079 --> 00:57:43,440
his Koran and exposing him as inconsistent. Now in saying that,

1053
00:57:44,199 --> 00:57:49,000
you'll have statements where Muhammad realizes that some of Alah's

1054
00:57:49,039 --> 00:57:53,119
attributes require relationships. Let me give you some of these

1055
00:57:53,199 --> 00:57:55,320
so you understand where I'm going with this. This comes

1056
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:59,639
from Sahi Muslim number sixty sixty twenty. Now, and by

1057
00:57:59,679 --> 00:58:01,840
the way, all of this information is available free of

1058
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:04,199
charge on the websites. I want all the Christians here

1059
00:58:04,880 --> 00:58:07,199
to go back use this information. In fact, you have

1060
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:10,079
my permission because on our website we allow people to

1061
00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:11,880
upload them to their sites. As long as you just

1062
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,599
mentioned the URL free of charge. Use it for the

1063
00:58:14,599 --> 00:58:17,280
glory of the Lord. Use it for the trime God. Now, Jay,

1064
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,119
tell me what it sounds like. Doesn't it sound like

1065
00:58:20,559 --> 00:58:24,559
Muhammad is in a conundrum because he realizes that some

1066
00:58:24,599 --> 00:58:28,599
of these attributes do require relationships. But if you don't

1067
00:58:28,639 --> 00:58:32,719
have a multi personal God, then that means your God

1068
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:36,920
needs creation to actualize these characteristics and therefore shows these

1069
00:58:36,920 --> 00:58:39,599
a dependent need idity. Right, let me read and you'll

1070
00:58:39,599 --> 00:58:43,000
see what I mean. Abu Sinema reported that when the

1071
00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:45,400
time of death of Abu Ayo this is by the

1072
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,920
way Sai Muslim number sixty six to twenty. Abu Sinema

1073
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,480
reported that when the time of the death of Abu

1074
00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:55,639
ayub Ansadi drew near, he said, I used to conceal

1075
00:58:55,719 --> 00:58:58,239
from you a thing which I heard from Allah's messenger

1076
00:58:58,639 --> 00:59:01,519
and I heard Allah's messenger as saying, Christians, you gotta

1077
00:59:01,559 --> 00:59:05,079
hear this shows you how unjust Allah is and how

1078
00:59:05,159 --> 00:59:10,719
needy Allah is. Had you not committed sins, Allah would

1079
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,119
have brought into existence a creation that would have committed sins,

1080
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,000
and Allah would have forgiven them. Now let me read

1081
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:23,880
another one. Sahi Muslim number sixty six twenty two. Saia

1082
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:28,280
Muslim number sixty six twenty two. Abu Hureira reported Allah's

1083
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:32,199
messenger having said by him in whose hand is my life?

1084
00:59:32,639 --> 00:59:35,559
If you are not to commit sin, Allah would sweep

1085
00:59:35,679 --> 00:59:40,079
you out of existence and he would replace you by

1086
00:59:40,119 --> 00:59:43,599
those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allah,

1087
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,320
and he would pardon them. Now, understand what Mohammed is thinking.

1088
00:59:48,079 --> 00:59:53,960
Because Allah's merciful, that is an attribute that's relational. Therefore,

1089
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,320
there has to be someone for him to show mercy to.

1090
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,559
So he deliberately creates a creation that's imperfect will sin

1091
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:03,880
so he can show his mercy. Because if creation is perfect,

1092
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,440
he'd wipe it out of existence and create an imperfect

1093
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,480
one so that he could be given the opportunity of

1094
01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:13,639
showing his mercy. So you see somewhat of this idea

1095
01:00:13,679 --> 01:00:16,239
even in Muhammad's mind that some of the characteristics of

1096
01:00:16,239 --> 01:00:19,679
my God require relationships. But Muhammad didn't realize he made

1097
01:00:19,679 --> 01:00:24,320
his God dependent on creation to actualize those characteristics. So

1098
01:00:24,360 --> 01:00:28,599
that Islam's deity is not self existent and it's not

1099
01:00:28,639 --> 01:00:29,599
independent of creation.

1100
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:30,079
Speaker 1: Wow.

1101
01:00:30,079 --> 01:00:31,639
Speaker 2: So I just wanted to drive that point home. But

1102
01:00:31,639 --> 01:00:34,519
I agree with you. Creator is not an essential attribute

1103
01:00:34,559 --> 01:00:37,079
in that God doesn't have to create to be who he.

1104
01:00:37,119 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 1: Is, right exactly. Yeah, this is stressed in Orthodox theology.

1105
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,079
And in fact, there was a Muslim apologist today on

1106
01:00:44,119 --> 01:00:47,480
Twitter bringing this up to me, saying, you are neo Platonist. Hahaha,

1107
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:50,199
We've got you. You've got a triad from Neoplatonism. And

1108
01:00:50,239 --> 01:00:54,000
I said, you realize that when most of the are

1109
01:00:54,039 --> 01:00:58,960
in the Orthodox tradition, very prominent theologians, Saint Maximus, Saint Athanasius,

1110
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:01,639
when they go in St. Basil, when they go into

1111
01:01:01,719 --> 01:01:06,599
depth about arguing for the triad and for the metaphysics

1112
01:01:06,599 --> 01:01:10,519
of the Trinity and so forth, they're actually stressing points

1113
01:01:10,559 --> 01:01:14,239
that are directly refutations of Neoplatonism. For example, the notion

1114
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:17,519
that eternal, that creation is an eternal reflection of God.

1115
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:22,400
That's the Neoplatonic doctrine. They also stress the reality of

1116
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:26,320
distinctions in God that are personal try hyposthetic, right, and

1117
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:30,320
that means that we have a way to balance unity

1118
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:34,199
and multiplicity in God and we don't have to balance

1119
01:01:34,239 --> 01:01:38,280
it in something created or something in this world. And

1120
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:39,880
so for us, I think that's a better way to

1121
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,800
ground our philosophy or epistemology or metaphysic all that just

1122
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,519
to say that in these two points that creation was

1123
01:01:46,519 --> 01:01:49,840
a free action and that it wasn't a determined emanation.

1124
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:56,079
Orthoxiology is grounded in rejecting those neoplatonic doctrines. And ironically

1125
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:58,400
they I know that a Muslim wouldn't want to affirm this,

1126
01:01:58,519 --> 01:02:00,519
but I think if he were consistent, we ought to

1127
01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:03,480
be and is more neoplatonic than we are, because we

1128
01:02:03,519 --> 01:02:06,119
don't think that creating or being a creator is an

1129
01:02:06,119 --> 01:02:07,679
eternal attribute.

1130
01:02:08,119 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 2: And you see that Muhammad realized that Allah needed an

1131
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,960
imperfect creation to be who he is and actualize those

1132
01:02:13,039 --> 01:02:16,519
characteristics that were foundational to his view of God. So

1133
01:02:16,519 --> 01:02:18,880
it's the Muslim God that's a needy god, not separate

1134
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:19,840
from creation.

1135
01:02:20,159 --> 01:02:23,440
Speaker 1: And closer to neoplatonism, especially in terms of the neoplatonic

1136
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:27,280
doctrine of simplicity, where everything is identical to essence. And

1137
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:29,800
again I know that, as you said, some of the

1138
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,280
schools don't want to go in that direction, but it's

1139
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:34,920
very hard for me to see how what was the

1140
01:02:34,960 --> 01:02:39,000
phrase you used, the attributes are distinct but not different,

1141
01:02:39,079 --> 01:02:40,360
or what was the phrase.

1142
01:02:40,199 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 2: They came up with them? By the way, that's why

1143
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,039
I say, Jay, to the average Muslim, you're going to

1144
01:02:44,079 --> 01:02:45,840
be speaking over their minds. So you got to find

1145
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:50,599
a Muslim who's philosophically trained and understands these issues. And

1146
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:55,320
my estimation the current crop of apologist, you're speaking a

1147
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,599
foreign language. They can't follow you. But the term that

1148
01:02:58,639 --> 01:03:01,519
the Islamic scholars came up with, they said, all of those

1149
01:03:01,519 --> 01:03:04,840
attributes are not a law, but they are not other

1150
01:03:05,079 --> 01:03:05,760
than a law.

1151
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 1: There we go, yeah, yeah, which that's I think that's

1152
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,320
kind of funny, but that's good.

1153
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,159
Speaker 2: And then when they're oppressed on it, they would say,

1154
01:03:14,199 --> 01:03:17,280
bila cave. Billa cave means it's only known to him.

1155
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:20,840
We don't know, mystery, Jay, But hey, I thought we

1156
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:23,320
Christians when we build the mister or what you guys

1157
01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:25,480
are just using that as a cop out. It's ironic

1158
01:03:25,559 --> 01:03:28,000
they do the very thing they accuse Christians of doing.

1159
01:03:28,679 --> 01:03:30,719
Speaker 1: What are some good books that you would recommend? As

1160
01:03:30,719 --> 01:03:32,800
I'm looking through my questions here, I wanted to ask

1161
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,920
you you mentioned it was it the J. Smith? He

1162
01:03:36,039 --> 01:03:38,039
has some stuff. What are some other texts we want

1163
01:03:38,079 --> 01:03:40,480
to look at to get into introduce to me, you.

1164
01:03:40,519 --> 01:03:47,440
Speaker 2: Know on books on Koran manuscripts. I know Danker Mark Hamer,

1165
01:03:47,559 --> 01:03:50,760
He's come up with one. I don't know of any

1166
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:53,039
recent books that have come out. There was a book

1167
01:03:53,119 --> 01:03:57,920
done by Keith Small on comparing chronic manuscripts. But at

1168
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:00,679
the end of the day, you're all number one resource

1169
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,480
for all this information would be J.

1170
01:04:03,639 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: Smith.

1171
01:04:04,519 --> 01:04:06,119
Speaker 2: And if you can't, I can put your contact with

1172
01:04:06,199 --> 01:04:08,519
him because he's got the books. But I know there's

1173
01:04:08,519 --> 01:04:10,320
a book by Dan and I have a hard time

1174
01:04:10,760 --> 01:04:12,559
remembering his last thing. I even have the book in

1175
01:04:12,599 --> 01:04:15,159
my shelf, Dan blu Baker, I think it's Brew Baker

1176
01:04:15,639 --> 01:04:18,639
and Keith Small. Those are some outstanding works, but they're

1177
01:04:18,679 --> 01:04:21,840
then done from a Christian perspective. But as far as

1178
01:04:22,239 --> 01:04:26,400
an academic level type of presentation on the chronic manuscripts,

1179
01:04:26,559 --> 01:04:29,920
right now, it slips my mind because there's a work

1180
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:32,280
done by Muslim, but I don't consider it academic because

1181
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,599
he's biased towards the Koran, and he compares the textual

1182
01:04:35,679 --> 01:04:39,039
transmission of the Bible and pretty much uses it as

1183
01:04:39,039 --> 01:04:40,920
a plimic to attack the Bible and prop up the

1184
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,880
kron So I wouldn't recommend that. But Ja Smith, you

1185
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:45,440
got to get him on if you want, and he

1186
01:04:45,519 --> 01:04:48,119
will give you all the sources. And he's done metiiculous,

1187
01:04:48,119 --> 01:04:50,840
he himself meticulous research into the extent manuscripts.

1188
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 1: Now, I got Al Gazali's book the other day and

1189
01:04:57,519 --> 01:04:59,840
incoherent to the philosophers, And that's funny because doesn't he

1190
01:05:00,280 --> 01:05:02,079
depart from Islam. Yeah?

1191
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:08,280
Speaker 2: Well, Al Kazati is an interesting figure in that his

1192
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:12,400
journey takes him from where he ends up at the

1193
01:05:12,800 --> 01:05:15,039
from Again, this is going by those who are experts

1194
01:05:15,039 --> 01:05:20,000
at Alexandi like Kamsa Yusuf and Yaserkati. Even though he

1195
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,960
tried to be philosophically rigorous and tried to show how

1196
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:29,199
what they call knuckle revelation and akkhl knuckle is revelation.

1197
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:34,280
Ukkl means reasoning your mind that they're not necessarily in conflict,

1198
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:36,679
but they can be married and sandwiched with one another,

1199
01:05:37,199 --> 01:05:40,559
and you had another who's a Persian Muslim commentator who

1200
01:05:40,599 --> 01:05:43,679
tried to code the route of showing how ukkhel properly

1201
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:47,440
used doesn't numbify knuckle. Knuckle is the term, the technical

1202
01:05:47,519 --> 01:05:52,800
term meaning revelation. Ukkul means intellect, reasoning Arazi. But you

1203
01:05:52,920 --> 01:05:57,360
find then Muslims like Iban Temia writing devastating critiques against

1204
01:05:58,039 --> 01:06:02,679
philosophers and ukkhol showing how well your ukkum cannot be

1205
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:07,360
the determining guy cannot be the criterion to determine what

1206
01:06:07,559 --> 01:06:10,599
parts of the revelation can be valid or not, because

1207
01:06:10,639 --> 01:06:14,079
then you subject revelation to your understanding, and your understanding

1208
01:06:14,239 --> 01:06:18,239
is unaided by revelation, by inspiration, so you cannot know

1209
01:06:18,559 --> 01:06:24,199
whether you're reasoning can guide you to properly understand things

1210
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:29,079
that require revelation, because after all, were finite, imperfect, temporal beings.

1211
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:33,639
Our reasoning is tainted, it's corrupted, it's affected, and can

1212
01:06:33,679 --> 01:06:36,000
only take you so far. So you can't use reasoning

1213
01:06:36,039 --> 01:06:38,039
as a standard. So you're going to have a debate

1214
01:06:38,199 --> 01:06:41,599
among those what I call the knuckalists, that's my term,

1215
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,679
those who say revelation is supreme and the ecoists right,

1216
01:06:46,039 --> 01:06:48,480
those who say no reasoning is given to us by God,

1217
01:06:48,559 --> 01:06:52,199
and it's a valid tool to determine whether something can

1218
01:06:52,239 --> 01:06:55,960
be truly considered revelation from God or something that's fabricated,

1219
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,079
because after all, God will not go against reasoning, because

1220
01:06:59,159 --> 01:07:01,480
reasoning is a reflection of God's mind. And so this

1221
01:07:01,639 --> 01:07:04,519
was an intense debate as that he was on the

1222
01:07:04,519 --> 01:07:08,199
side of the philosophers. But according to some again don't

1223
01:07:08,239 --> 01:07:12,239
quote me on this, that honest death bet, supposedly he

1224
01:07:12,320 --> 01:07:16,000
returned back to his roots and pretty much denounced the philosophers.

1225
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:21,639
Speaker 1: Hmm. Interesting, Yeah, there's a lot of deathbed conversion stories

1226
01:07:21,679 --> 01:07:24,639
like that that are always floating around. We didn't get

1227
01:07:24,639 --> 01:07:26,599
a whole lot into textual issues. Maybe we want to

1228
01:07:26,599 --> 01:07:28,480
touch on that sum because I know you're really good

1229
01:07:28,599 --> 01:07:32,320
with you know, your recollection and all that. Maybe if

1230
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:34,559
you could, what are some of the key texts that

1231
01:07:34,599 --> 01:07:39,599
you think really demonstrate the triadic relationship, because the majority

1232
01:07:39,639 --> 01:07:41,960
of the arguments are just usually there's no trinity in

1233
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:44,960
the Bible that's made up later. Well, actually no, there's

1234
01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:48,599
all of the hardware of what would be termed quote

1235
01:07:48,639 --> 01:07:51,119
trinity is all in scripture. It's not made up later.

1236
01:07:52,239 --> 01:07:53,760
What are some of the key things that you would

1237
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:54,360
point to there?

1238
01:07:55,119 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, here is where the battle is going to be won.

1239
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:04,119
To show that your view, your philosophy, your tradition is

1240
01:08:04,199 --> 01:08:07,360
anchored in the sound interpretation of the Bible. Right, it

1241
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:11,400
doesn't go against because that's your accusation that these views,

1242
01:08:12,239 --> 01:08:17,680
the theological jargon, the precise theological terminology that was developed

1243
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:22,920
by the Church fathers, alien to the scriptures and pretty

1244
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:26,720
much abandons the scripture. So one key thing, and I

1245
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,720
say this because you come from an Orthodox perspective and

1246
01:08:30,760 --> 01:08:34,560
you don't believe that the tradition contradicts the scripture. Right,

1247
01:08:35,079 --> 01:08:39,239
the perfect c harmonious anchor what you believe in scripture

1248
01:08:39,399 --> 01:08:43,000
and tradition and show there is no conflict between the two.

1249
01:08:43,359 --> 01:08:46,760
And I would encourage everyone, especially the Orthodox brothers and

1250
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:50,600
sisters here. You want to prove the Trinity not simply

1251
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:53,319
from the New Testament. You have to anchor it in

1252
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:58,000
the Old Testament. And I'll give you the reason why

1253
01:08:58,039 --> 01:09:01,920
you have Muslims who are now following and being influenced

1254
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:07,680
by anti Christian missionary rabbis like Tovia Singer. Tovia Singer

1255
01:09:08,039 --> 01:09:12,359
has become very famous among Muslims because Tovia Singer is

1256
01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:16,439
actually in Indonesia, which has the largest Muslim population, and

1257
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:19,760
he's doing YouTube videos where he's attacking the New Testament,

1258
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:23,720
attacking Christianity, attacking the deity of Christ. But he barely

1259
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:27,000
says anything negative. Vaudi Islam and Muslims love him. And

1260
01:09:27,039 --> 01:09:29,159
one of his arguments that Muslims have picked up on

1261
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:34,239
is Dounonomy chapter thirteen, Dononomy thirteen, and he uses actually

1262
01:09:34,319 --> 01:09:37,039
in a debate with William len craig or he alluded

1263
01:09:37,039 --> 01:09:38,880
to it. He didn't mention it specifically, but he was

1264
01:09:38,920 --> 01:09:42,640
alluding to it. And Douonomy thirteen. You have God telling

1265
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:47,199
Dizelites through Moses before Moses dies. If a prophet or

1266
01:09:47,239 --> 01:09:50,840
a dreamer of dreams tells you about a sign that

1267
01:09:51,760 --> 01:09:54,920
will come to pass, and it comes to pass, but

1268
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:59,000
then he says to you, come, let us follow gods

1269
01:09:59,159 --> 01:10:02,279
that neither you your fathers have known. Do not do

1270
01:10:02,399 --> 01:10:04,880
it because the Lord, your God is testing you. So

1271
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:09,199
what's the point here? God is saying, don't be impressed

1272
01:10:09,199 --> 01:10:13,640
by miracles, don't be impressed by prophecies. If that miracle

1273
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:18,119
worker or prophet then entices you to follow a God

1274
01:10:18,199 --> 01:10:21,520
that's foreign to you, that your ancestors did not know

1275
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:23,079
and did not worship. So now what do they do

1276
01:10:23,159 --> 01:10:26,800
with that? But the Muslims and these Jews, the Trinity

1277
01:10:27,079 --> 01:10:31,199
is alien to the Old Testament. It is a God

1278
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:37,560
that the Jews, the patriarchs did not know. How could

1279
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:40,399
Abraham be the friend of God and not know God? Truly?

1280
01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:42,880
If you're telling me, God is triune. So this is

1281
01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:46,000
an objection. This is why folks don't take my word

1282
01:10:46,039 --> 01:10:49,560
for it. Read the New Testament. Notice that Jesus, who's

1283
01:10:49,560 --> 01:10:51,760
the god man, What does he do? And what do

1284
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:55,880
the apostles do? They anchor their message, They anchor their

1285
01:10:55,880 --> 01:10:57,880
revelation on the foundation of.

1286
01:10:57,880 --> 01:10:58,640
Speaker 1: The Old Testament.

1287
01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 2: There repeatedly quoting the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah

1288
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:06,079
would come, that he'd be the god Man, that he

1289
01:11:06,119 --> 01:11:08,359
would be the Son of God, that he would die

1290
01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:11,479
vicariously on the cross, be raised and enter his glory.

1291
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:15,439
Because it's Jesus, after all, who gave Moses the law.

1292
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:18,640
And it's Jesus, after all, who's not going to contradict

1293
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:21,439
the very critian he gave these raelights. So he's going

1294
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:23,399
to make sure that what he says, and what is

1295
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:27,079
inspired emissaries say are based on the foundation of the

1296
01:11:27,119 --> 01:11:30,159
Old Testament. Even though they build on it and give

1297
01:11:30,239 --> 01:11:33,800
us a more fuller understanding, it's still anchored in the

1298
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,239
Old Testament. So what am I trying to say? You

1299
01:11:36,359 --> 01:11:40,119
must be able to ground your belief in the Trinity

1300
01:11:40,199 --> 01:11:41,920
in the Old Testament and then work your way into

1301
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:44,640
the New Testament. And Jay, if anyone knows it, you

1302
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:47,479
know it better than I. That's what the church fathers did.

1303
01:11:47,920 --> 01:11:51,520
Justin Martyr in his dialogue, would trifle the Jew What

1304
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:54,119
is the appeal to him to show the priority of

1305
01:11:54,159 --> 01:11:59,399
God and the deed of the Messiah? What did Tertullian do?

1306
01:12:00,039 --> 01:12:03,479
What did he appeal to the Old Testament? They're appealing

1307
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:06,159
to passages where you have more than one divine player,

1308
01:12:06,720 --> 01:12:09,920
more than one divine person, and demonstrating that one of

1309
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:14,000
those persons becomes the historical Jesus, the Messiah. Right, so

1310
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:18,159
number one anchor your trinitarianism in the Old Testament. The

1311
01:12:18,199 --> 01:12:21,439
Hebrew Bible now one of the best passages to do this.

1312
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:23,800
And everyone knows this, Everyone and his mother knows this.

1313
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:26,319
It's Genesis eighteen. If you want us to go through

1314
01:12:26,359 --> 01:12:28,039
it we can, that's up to you. I don't know

1315
01:12:28,079 --> 01:12:29,640
how much time we have, but I'm free all day,

1316
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:31,039
so I'm not in Russia.

1317
01:12:31,159 --> 01:12:32,720
Speaker 1: Well we're going to get to the super chats in

1318
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:34,800
a minute. But yeah. One of the things that I

1319
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:37,000
do hit on quite a bit is the Old Testament

1320
01:12:37,039 --> 01:12:42,239
Theophanes and how they do clearly they clearly distinguish, you know,

1321
01:12:43,079 --> 01:12:47,600
these relationships that are divine. And so the point is

1322
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:50,199
that the Old Testament saints might not have known the

1323
01:12:50,279 --> 01:12:54,039
term hypostasis. That doesn't matter, right, whether Abraham knew the

1324
01:12:54,119 --> 01:12:56,359
term or not. Whether what he knew was that he

1325
01:12:56,520 --> 01:12:59,560
was worshiping the coming Messiah. That's the key, and that's

1326
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:02,760
Paul's imitation in the New Testament is that Abraham believed

1327
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:06,239
the Gospel ahead of time because Abraham knew God the

1328
01:13:06,319 --> 01:13:10,239
Father through Jesus Christ. So there's a triadic relationship that's

1329
01:13:10,279 --> 01:13:14,079
present in the Old Testament. And even scholars have admitted

1330
01:13:14,119 --> 01:13:17,479
that there were these hypostatic understandings, whether they use the

1331
01:13:17,520 --> 01:13:21,239
term or not, in that Old Testament period, in even

1332
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:25,640
the Temple period when when Christ came, there was the

1333
01:13:25,680 --> 01:13:28,159
Second Temple period, there was an understanding at that time

1334
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:33,640
of a distinction in the hypostaces. Philo talks about this, right.

1335
01:13:34,319 --> 01:13:36,479
Doctor David Bradshaw has a great book on this where

1336
01:13:36,479 --> 01:13:39,560
he talks about the history of these notions, even all

1337
01:13:39,560 --> 01:13:42,119
the way back to the Mosaic period. So if you

1338
01:13:42,159 --> 01:13:45,000
look at the history of rabbinical debates, they actually debate

1339
01:13:45,039 --> 01:13:48,479
this topic too. This is not unique to Christianity. It's

1340
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:52,000
actually within the history of Judaism, debates about in what

1341
01:13:52,159 --> 01:13:57,560
sense there are different personages, staces, powers sometimes that word

1342
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:01,800
is used. Regardless of what the used, that's the idea

1343
01:14:01,840 --> 01:14:05,279
that's present, and so there's multiple Old Testament theophanies. I

1344
01:14:05,319 --> 01:14:07,359
have a three hour talk on this that I put

1345
01:14:07,399 --> 01:14:09,920
into the chat for everybody. If they want to link

1346
01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:12,359
to that, you feel free too. If you want to

1347
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:14,000
mention Genesis, say team yeah.

1348
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,560
Speaker 2: The seminal work in this field is done by the

1349
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:20,800
late Jewish scholar Alan F. Siegel. He did Two Powers

1350
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:24,199
in Heaven, Two Powers in Heaven. He's not a Christian,

1351
01:14:24,239 --> 01:14:27,000
he's a Jew, and he admits that there was a

1352
01:14:27,039 --> 01:14:31,479
strand of Judaism. Many most right that believe there were

1353
01:14:31,479 --> 01:14:34,800
at least two divine powers. Now that's the language he's using.

1354
01:14:35,239 --> 01:14:38,800
The term we would use two divine persons or hypostasis, right,

1355
01:14:39,399 --> 01:14:42,520
two divine powers. Just we're saying the same thing, we

1356
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:44,520
may not be using the same language. And he says

1357
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:47,359
this was a belief common among the Jews even after

1358
01:14:47,439 --> 01:14:49,800
the time of Christ, up until at least the second century,

1359
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,840
when then the rabbis reacted to it because the Christians

1360
01:14:52,840 --> 01:14:56,239
and the Gnostic heretics were using these Old Testament passages

1361
01:14:56,279 --> 01:14:59,239
that the Church fathers you see them using to prove

1362
01:14:59,279 --> 01:15:02,239
a divine ploorer. But if we can't just one example,

1363
01:15:02,239 --> 01:15:04,319
because I'm going to kill two birds one stone, sure

1364
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:07,039
show how Jesus claims to be God without having to

1365
01:15:07,039 --> 01:15:10,880
say those exact words, and how he ties himself with

1366
01:15:11,359 --> 01:15:13,520
the God that appeared to Abraham. And if you don't mind,

1367
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:16,119
if you can't, and Christians, I want you here. There's

1368
01:15:16,119 --> 01:15:18,119
some of you who've been following my sessions. You already

1369
01:15:18,119 --> 01:15:20,319
know this. But if you go to Johnny thirty nine

1370
01:15:20,359 --> 01:15:22,439
to forty, and I use Muslim I use this to

1371
01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:24,520
Muslims to stump them. If you go to John eight

1372
01:15:24,560 --> 01:15:26,239
thirty nine and forty, brother p yeah, But if you

1373
01:15:26,279 --> 01:15:29,640
don't mind reading it, because I don't have the Bible economy. Okay, yeah,

1374
01:15:30,359 --> 01:15:32,920
Johnny thirty nine to forty.

1375
01:15:33,840 --> 01:15:37,399
Speaker 1: They said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said

1376
01:15:37,439 --> 01:15:40,399
to them, if you were Abraham's children, you would do

1377
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:42,760
the works of Abraham. But now you seek to kill me,

1378
01:15:42,960 --> 01:15:45,439
a man who has told you the truth which I

1379
01:15:45,479 --> 01:15:47,760
heard from God. Abraham did not do this. You do

1380
01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:48,239
the detail.

1381
01:15:48,279 --> 01:15:50,960
Speaker 2: And here's where people read quickly over this. That's why

1382
01:15:50,960 --> 01:15:53,479
I had to stop. You notice what Jesus is saying

1383
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:56,840
to the Jews to show that they're not truly the

1384
01:15:56,920 --> 01:15:59,159
scendants of Abraham. Yeah, physically you descend from him, but

1385
01:15:59,199 --> 01:16:02,159
you're not truly his spiritual heirs because you don't believe

1386
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:04,560
like him, you don't act like him. And here's the proof.

1387
01:16:05,119 --> 01:16:07,279
You are trying to kill me, a man who told

1388
01:16:07,319 --> 01:16:09,079
you the truth that he did from God. Abraham did

1389
01:16:09,079 --> 01:16:12,520
not try to do this. What did Abraham? What did

1390
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:18,279
Abraham not do? Not try to kill Christ? Did you

1391
01:16:18,319 --> 01:16:18,840
catch you? Jay?

1392
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:20,520
Speaker 1: Didn't try to kill you?

1393
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:24,000
Speaker 2: Trying to kill me? Abram didn't try to kill me? Well,

1394
01:16:24,039 --> 01:16:26,279
that only makes sense if Jesus and Abraham had an

1395
01:16:26,359 --> 01:16:29,359
encounter where Abram's reaction was different. And that's exactly what

1396
01:16:29,399 --> 01:16:31,279
he says. If you go to John A fifty six

1397
01:16:31,359 --> 01:16:33,039
to fifty nine, because I'm going to tie it in

1398
01:16:33,039 --> 01:16:36,279
with a passage that you mentioned because I heard one

1399
01:16:36,319 --> 01:16:38,920
of your sessions on your journey to Orthodox and you

1400
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:41,479
mentioned Genesis fifteen, verse six. But we're going to look

1401
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:43,800
at it and show you the trinity there. But if

1402
01:16:43,840 --> 01:16:46,119
you go to Johnny, remember guys, what he just said,

1403
01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:48,720
you're trying to kill me. Abraham didn't try to do this.

1404
01:16:48,840 --> 01:16:52,199
Abram didn't try to kill me. Assumption Abraham saw me

1405
01:16:52,319 --> 01:16:54,720
like you're seeing me. But one difference. I'm now in

1406
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:58,399
the flesh, whereas with Abraham I didn't become flesh. I

1407
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:00,680
appeared in human form, and when he saw me, he

1408
01:17:00,720 --> 01:17:04,680
reacted differently. And this is confirmed in John A fifty

1409
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:07,079
six to fifty nine. It's confirmed because notice what he

1410
01:17:07,119 --> 01:17:08,520
then says about Abram's reaction.

1411
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:12,399
Speaker 1: So we're doing fifty six to fifty nine.

1412
01:17:12,399 --> 01:17:14,800
Speaker 2: Now John fifty six. Notice what he says. In fact,

1413
01:17:14,840 --> 01:17:16,039
I can read it if you want, because I re

1414
01:17:16,039 --> 01:17:16,760
memorize this well.

1415
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 1: He says. Yeah. He says, you have not known him,

1416
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:21,880
but I know him. I say to you, I do

1417
01:17:22,039 --> 01:17:23,560
know if wait.

1418
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 2: Now go to fifty six where it says, your father.

1419
01:17:25,720 --> 01:17:28,359
Speaker 1: Father, Abraham rejoiced to see me, to see my day,

1420
01:17:28,399 --> 01:17:30,000
and he saw, he saw it and was glad.

1421
01:17:30,319 --> 01:17:32,760
Speaker 2: Now, before you move on to fifty seven, notice he

1422
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:36,079
goes see your father, Abraham rejoiced to see my day,

1423
01:17:36,239 --> 01:17:39,319
he saw it was glad. Now, any commentator will tell

1424
01:17:39,319 --> 01:17:41,640
you that it means that Abraham was given a prophetic

1425
01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:45,560
vision of the Missigas coming. That's true. Not denying that.

1426
01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:49,319
But Jesus is saying much more than Abraham simply seeing

1427
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:52,439
My coming in the future. How do I know he's

1428
01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:54,720
saying more than that because notice how the Jews understood

1429
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:55,479
him in fifty seven.

1430
01:17:56,479 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 1: Well they, yeah, they understand him. You are not fifty

1431
01:17:58,479 --> 01:18:00,399
years old and you have seen Abraham.

1432
01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:03,239
Speaker 2: And then notice what he does not say. He doesn't say, guys,

1433
01:18:03,319 --> 01:18:05,520
don't be stupid. I'm not saying I saw him. I'm

1434
01:18:05,560 --> 01:18:08,920
saying prophetically, God revealed to him my coming. Can now

1435
01:18:08,920 --> 01:18:09,840
you read at fifty eight?

1436
01:18:10,079 --> 01:18:13,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, then Jesus said to them most assurely, I say

1437
01:18:13,399 --> 01:18:15,600
to you before Abraham was I am.

1438
01:18:16,159 --> 01:18:19,640
Speaker 2: That's the answer. So notice, folks, what Jesus said. Yes,

1439
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:24,039
I did see him. And here's why. Unlike your father Abraham,

1440
01:18:24,039 --> 01:18:26,600
who came into being. I am, he was created, but

1441
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:31,279
I'm timeless. So I was there before he came into existence,

1442
01:18:31,399 --> 01:18:34,520
and I remained the same till the present moment. So

1443
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:37,640
here notice what Jesus said. Abraham saw me, and I

1444
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:41,159
saw him actually, and I saw his reaction. Now here's

1445
01:18:41,199 --> 01:18:43,399
where it gets golden. And then we can go to

1446
01:18:43,439 --> 01:18:46,000
super chats if you want, or if you want more examples. Guys,

1447
01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:49,720
here's where it gets golden. Focus on this. Jesus saw

1448
01:18:49,760 --> 01:18:54,199
Abraham face to face because unlike Abraham, Jesus has always

1449
01:18:54,239 --> 01:18:57,760
been will always be. He is the I am in flesh,

1450
01:18:57,880 --> 01:19:01,399
God in flesh. Now remember the proue of John. In

1451
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:04,720
the beginning, was the Word in the beginning was the word.

1452
01:19:05,239 --> 01:19:08,920
The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1453
01:19:09,399 --> 01:19:11,399
He was with God in the beginning. All things came

1454
01:19:11,399 --> 01:19:14,840
into being through him, and without him, nothing came into

1455
01:19:14,840 --> 01:19:16,640
being that came into being. And then it says the

1456
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:19,720
Word became flesh. Now, Jesus is the Word of God

1457
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:23,600
that's been there from the beginning. Who is God in essence,

1458
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:25,960
the agent of creation. But then John went eighteen, I

1459
01:19:25,960 --> 01:19:28,960
want everyone remember this, John oyen. I know I'm preaching

1460
01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:30,439
to the choir with Jay, he knows this. But for

1461
01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:33,119
the rest of you, John went eighteen. I want you

1462
01:19:33,159 --> 01:19:35,880
to remember this. It says no man has seen God

1463
01:19:35,920 --> 01:19:39,960
at any time, anytime, meaning even Abraham's time. But the

1464
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:41,880
only begotten Son, who's in the bosom of the Father,

1465
01:19:42,199 --> 01:19:46,119
has explained him. So notice what it's saying. If anyone

1466
01:19:46,199 --> 01:19:49,760
has ever seen God, that was the agency of Christ.

1467
01:19:50,039 --> 01:19:52,600
Christ was the one making God known to them. So

1468
01:19:52,720 --> 01:19:55,920
right there, John is letting you know, expect to find

1469
01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:59,439
Jesus in the Old Testament, because anytime they saw God,

1470
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,239
it was Jesus making God known to them. Now, can

1471
01:20:02,239 --> 01:20:04,000
you do me a favor? Can you read Genesis fifteen,

1472
01:20:04,079 --> 01:20:04,600
verses one.

1473
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:06,840
Speaker 1: Of three one to three.

1474
01:20:07,359 --> 01:20:09,840
Speaker 2: Yes, After this you go on to super Chats if.

1475
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:11,560
Speaker 1: You want after these things. The word of the Lord

1476
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:13,920
came to Abraham and a vision saying, do not be afraid.

1477
01:20:14,000 --> 01:20:16,199
I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward.

1478
01:20:16,239 --> 01:20:19,319
Speaker 2: But Abraham, a little slower, slower, because I want you

1479
01:20:19,319 --> 01:20:21,399
to catch versus one, Jay, I want to catch it.

1480
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:23,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, the word of the Lord came to Abraham.

1481
01:20:23,880 --> 01:20:27,760
Speaker 2: Wow, the word of the Lord came to Abraham and

1482
01:20:27,840 --> 01:20:29,000
spoke to him. Now keep reading.

1483
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:31,760
Speaker 1: If you can't and a vision and said, do not

1484
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:35,520
be afraid, Abram, I am your shield and your exceedingly

1485
01:20:35,560 --> 01:20:41,159
great reward. But Abram said, Lord God, what will you

1486
01:20:41,199 --> 01:20:43,479
give me, seeing as I go childless and the heir

1487
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:48,079
of my house is Eliezer of Damascus. Then Abraham said, look,

1488
01:20:48,359 --> 01:20:51,520
you have given me to offspring, and indeed one born

1489
01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:52,479
in my house is my heir.

1490
01:20:52,960 --> 01:20:55,159
Speaker 2: Now, folks, this is where you need to start paying attention.

1491
01:20:55,199 --> 01:20:57,880
I know you are, but now really pay attention. Pay

1492
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:00,720
attention to verses four and six, because in verse five,

1493
01:21:00,840 --> 01:21:05,039
whoever speaking Tabram has appeared visibly to him inside the tent.

1494
01:21:05,079 --> 01:21:06,880
Because then he takes him out, he says, he takes

1495
01:21:06,920 --> 01:21:09,000
them out and shows them the stars. So, now, guys,

1496
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:10,039
pay attention to four to.

1497
01:21:10,119 --> 01:21:14,840
Speaker 1: Six, and behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying,

1498
01:21:15,119 --> 01:21:17,119
this one will not be your heir, but the one

1499
01:21:17,119 --> 01:21:19,319
who will come from your own body shall be your heir.

1500
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:22,479
And then he brought him outside and said, look now

1501
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:26,039
towards heaven and count the stars. If you are able

1502
01:21:26,119 --> 01:21:28,000
to number them, and he said to him, so will

1503
01:21:28,079 --> 01:21:28,880
your descendants be.

1504
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:30,560
Speaker 2: And then I want to say six.

1505
01:21:31,000 --> 01:21:32,960
Speaker 1: He believed in the Lord and was accounted to him

1506
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:33,680
for righteousness.

1507
01:21:34,359 --> 01:21:37,479
Speaker 2: Irony jay, the very passage that you use to your

1508
01:21:37,479 --> 01:21:41,039
professors who have an answer to in the context, guys,

1509
01:21:41,880 --> 01:21:45,079
the word of the Lord came Tabram saying this man

1510
01:21:45,079 --> 01:21:46,720
will not be your air. And then it says he

1511
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:52,279
took him outside. Implication, the word appeared visibly inside the tent,

1512
01:21:52,800 --> 01:21:55,680
and then visibly took him outside. And then he pointed

1513
01:21:55,680 --> 01:21:57,560
to the stars. He goes, Abram, do seventy and your

1514
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:01,439
descendants will be. Abram believed him, and he was credited

1515
01:22:01,439 --> 01:22:05,159
as righteous. Notice who appeared to him? The word? Whom

1516
01:22:05,159 --> 01:22:08,680
did Abraham trust in? The word? Whom did Abraham recognize

1517
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:11,880
as God? The word who made a promised Abraham that

1518
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:15,760
he'd have descendants to numerous account the word and whom

1519
01:22:15,760 --> 01:22:19,560
did Abraham trust in resulting in his justification? The word?

1520
01:22:19,720 --> 01:22:23,279
Who's that word? The word who became Jesus wa llah

1521
01:22:23,399 --> 01:22:26,680
no wonder, Jesus said, your father Abraham rejoiced to see

1522
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:29,239
me because I was that word that appeared to him

1523
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:31,640
and made a promise to him, and he believed in me.

1524
01:22:32,039 --> 01:22:35,520
Speaker 1: Right amen. Yeah, And with that in mind, when you

1525
01:22:35,560 --> 01:22:38,439
go through and you read the New Testament and you

1526
01:22:38,479 --> 01:22:43,119
start to notice, like in John twelve where John quotes

1527
01:22:43,199 --> 01:22:47,359
Isaiah in thirty seven to forty one, and he says,

1528
01:22:47,399 --> 01:22:50,439
these things Isaiah said when he saw his glory and

1529
01:22:50,479 --> 01:22:54,000
spoke of him Isaiah, and John is clearly talking about

1530
01:22:54,039 --> 01:22:59,920
Christ there, and who did Isaiah see Christ's ironic?

1531
01:23:00,279 --> 01:23:02,119
Speaker 2: Just so they don't think we're making it up, go

1532
01:23:02,199 --> 01:23:06,399
read the Aramaic paraphrases of Genesis and Isaiah that goomime

1533
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:12,119
the targets the Jews apart from the New Testament. They say,

1534
01:23:12,439 --> 01:23:14,479
the one who appeared to Abraham, the one who spoke

1535
01:23:14,520 --> 01:23:16,000
to Adam and Eve, the one who created them in

1536
01:23:16,039 --> 01:23:19,560
their image. The one who appeared to Isaiah was the memra,

1537
01:23:20,479 --> 01:23:25,720
the word of the Lord that appeared to them. That's

1538
01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:29,800
even the Jewish understanding. So what's the point When John

1539
01:23:29,840 --> 01:23:31,359
said in the beginning was the word, the word was

1540
01:23:31,359 --> 01:23:34,079
with God, the word was God. That wasn't something new

1541
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:37,439
for the Jews. The only new thing that John added

1542
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:39,560
is when he said the word became flesh. That would

1543
01:23:39,560 --> 01:23:42,359
have rocked them everything else. They would have said, Amen, John,

1544
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:45,319
we know about the words in the Old Testament. Now, Jay,

1545
01:23:45,359 --> 01:23:49,279
because again you're my orthodox brother, and you believe Wisdom

1546
01:23:49,319 --> 01:23:51,279
of Solomon in a scripture. Can we just look at

1547
01:23:51,279 --> 01:23:56,039
one passage from Wisdom? Sure, go to Wisdom eighteenth thirteen

1548
01:23:56,039 --> 01:24:00,319
to sixteen. Guys, you're in for a treat as he

1549
01:24:00,359 --> 01:24:02,399
goes to Wisdom eighteen thirteen to sixteen.

1550
01:24:02,119 --> 01:24:05,359
Speaker 1: Before I haven't marked him on as logos God.

1551
01:24:05,359 --> 01:24:07,000
Speaker 2: All right, now, let me explain to them the New

1552
01:24:07,079 --> 01:24:11,640
Testament parallel to this. Write down Revelation three twenty one. Revelation.

1553
01:24:12,079 --> 01:24:13,920
I'm gonna give you a lot of guys, write these down.

1554
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:16,199
We're not gonna look at him, but write these down.

1555
01:24:16,399 --> 01:24:21,039
I want you to write down Revelation one sixteen, Revelation

1556
01:24:21,279 --> 01:24:25,960
two twelve, Revelation two sixteen. I'm gonna go a little

1557
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:32,039
slurre so you can keep up, okay, Amen, Revelation nineteen fifteen.

1558
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:37,600
Revelation nineteen twenty one. Revelation nineteen twenty one. There it

1559
01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:40,800
says Jesus's mouth is like a sharpened tw edged sword,

1560
01:24:41,159 --> 01:24:44,399
and that sword he uses to slay his enemies. Write

1561
01:24:44,399 --> 01:24:48,159
down Revelation nineteen thirteen. Jesus is said to be the

1562
01:24:48,199 --> 01:24:52,399
Word of God. Revelation nineteen thirteen, and write down Revelation

1563
01:24:52,479 --> 01:24:55,800
three twenty one, where Jesus says, he overcame, and he

1564
01:24:55,840 --> 01:24:58,520
sits with his father on his father's throne. So Jesus

1565
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:00,960
is the word of God on his his father's throne,

1566
01:25:01,079 --> 01:25:03,119
who has a sword that comes out of his mouth

1567
01:25:03,359 --> 01:25:06,800
to slay God's enemies. Remember that. So now let's go

1568
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,039
to Wisdom eighteen verses thirteen to sixteen. I'll read it

1569
01:25:09,079 --> 01:25:11,319
for their benefit, because he marked it up. We can't.

1570
01:25:11,600 --> 01:25:15,039
Speaker 1: For they disbelieved everything because of their sorceries. But at

1571
01:25:15,039 --> 01:25:17,920
the destruction of their firstborn, they acknowledge the people to

1572
01:25:18,039 --> 01:25:23,079
be God's son. For while while gentile silence embraced, gentle

1573
01:25:23,159 --> 01:25:26,760
silence embraced everything, and night at its own speed was

1574
01:25:26,800 --> 01:25:31,039
half over. Your all powerful Word leapt from heaven, from

1575
01:25:31,039 --> 01:25:33,600
the royal throne into the midst of a doomed land,

1576
01:25:34,039 --> 01:25:38,600
a relentless warrior carrying the sharp sword of your irrevocable command.

1577
01:25:39,159 --> 01:25:41,279
And he stood and filled all things with death.

1578
01:25:42,239 --> 01:25:44,920
Speaker 2: So, jake, guys, the question, how did these Jews know?

1579
01:25:45,760 --> 01:25:50,000
Before the Gospel of John. God has a divine person,

1580
01:25:50,119 --> 01:25:54,239
an agent, honest throne, his all powerful Word, who can

1581
01:25:54,279 --> 01:25:58,760
appear in human form, And he is God's agent of salvation, destruction,

1582
01:25:58,920 --> 01:26:01,479
and has a sword by which he slays his enemies,

1583
01:26:01,680 --> 01:26:04,560
because that's exactly what the New Testament says about Jesus.

1584
01:26:06,119 --> 01:26:09,640
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, I mean, because in many many places in

1585
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:12,520
the Old Testament this is spoken of as the Angel

1586
01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:15,720
of the Lord. And he's not just a created angel.

1587
01:26:15,399 --> 01:26:19,279
The word angel just means messenger. He is a divine figure.

1588
01:26:19,359 --> 01:26:22,039
And hence why Exodus can say I have put my

1589
01:26:22,319 --> 01:26:23,640
name Yahweh in him.

1590
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:27,640
Speaker 2: So these are the things that I would use for

1591
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:30,279
a Muslim, because now the Muslim is in a dilemma.

1592
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:35,199
Old Testament, New Testament perfectly agreed. Old Testament posits a

1593
01:26:35,279 --> 01:26:37,560
multi personal God, and I can give you more evidence

1594
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:40,079
than Jake Canto. But again we're being very brief. For

1595
01:26:40,119 --> 01:26:43,119
the same time, God in the Old Testament is the

1596
01:26:43,159 --> 01:26:45,479
father to his people, the Angel of the Lord, who's

1597
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:48,000
the Word of the Lord. He's a distinct messenger person

1598
01:26:48,000 --> 01:26:50,159
from God, who is God. The Spirit of God is

1599
01:26:50,199 --> 01:26:52,960
a person even in the Old Testament. He creates as

1600
01:26:53,039 --> 01:26:56,319
the divine attributes, all of which comports with the New Testament,

1601
01:26:56,840 --> 01:26:59,479
but both of which contradict the Chrome. So you got

1602
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:03,640
the Old test New Testament agreeing about God. A list

1603
01:27:03,720 --> 01:27:06,920
of books written by different people in different places, and

1604
01:27:06,960 --> 01:27:09,239
their view of God is the same. He's multi personal,

1605
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:12,920
and one of those persons becomes the Messiah Jesus, and

1606
01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:14,840
that's also in the Old Testament. We had time we

1607
01:27:14,840 --> 01:27:18,640
could impact that. And yet Muhammad comes and says, no,

1608
01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:21,079
God is not the Father, Jesus is not the Son,

1609
01:27:22,720 --> 01:27:25,640
and he wants us to assume all these books are corrupted,

1610
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:28,439
but the chron is uncorrupt. My question would be, what

1611
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:30,520
would lead the Jews to corupt the Old Testament? Agree

1612
01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:34,000
with Christian theology? If I read these books and I

1613
01:27:34,039 --> 01:27:36,359
didn't tell you it was the Old Testament, I didn't

1614
01:27:36,359 --> 01:27:38,079
tell you the Old Testament and I read these books,

1615
01:27:38,119 --> 01:27:40,000
do you think a Christian wrote them? And, by golly,

1616
01:27:40,119 --> 01:27:43,359
Christians did write them, because they're all Christians before Christ came,

1617
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:46,199
because they all knew about Messiah, believed in him, trusted

1618
01:27:46,239 --> 01:27:48,760
in him, and were saved by his grace. So they're

1619
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:50,840
Christians before Christ became flesh.

1620
01:27:50,880 --> 01:27:53,920
Speaker 1: There you go, and then you know that I would

1621
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:57,039
add too, if somebody wants a good example, just off

1622
01:27:57,039 --> 01:28:01,439
the cough of the Father, Son and Spirit being present,

1623
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:05,920
just read Zachariah one. You'll find all three hypostaces present there.

1624
01:28:06,000 --> 01:28:10,279
The Father, the Angel who is called Divine, and the

1625
01:28:10,319 --> 01:28:12,720
Spirit of the Lord are all present. In Zachariah one

1626
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:15,279
as an example. Let's move on. Let's move on to

1627
01:28:15,319 --> 01:28:18,920
the super chest. Now we got George hayj he has joined.

1628
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:22,640
Thank you, welcome George, welcome to the channel. And Constable

1629
01:28:22,760 --> 01:28:25,239
joined the channel. If you look into the community tab,

1630
01:28:25,279 --> 01:28:28,680
you'll find the extra content for those who are members

1631
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:32,239
a mill for two dollars. This is a question for you.

1632
01:28:32,279 --> 01:28:34,159
I don't know what this is, he says. Who are

1633
01:28:34,279 --> 01:28:36,439
Al al Lot and Manat?

1634
01:28:37,039 --> 01:28:41,079
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, Zamana there mention in chapter fifty three, verses

1635
01:28:41,119 --> 01:28:44,640
nineteen to twenty La Crown the Pagans before and during

1636
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:49,319
the time Mohammad believe there got a law, had offspring,

1637
01:28:50,000 --> 01:28:54,479
sons and daughters. Because remember these were Pagans, similar to

1638
01:28:54,640 --> 01:28:57,439
the pagan pantheons of the Greeks and the Romans and

1639
01:28:57,479 --> 01:29:00,439
the Canaanites. They believe there was a chief guy, the

1640
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:02,760
chief God, had a consort. They were sexually active, and

1641
01:29:02,800 --> 01:29:06,479
they sire children, and the planets represented these deities. So

1642
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:10,760
al Pozamanat were considered goddesses, were the daughters of a

1643
01:29:10,840 --> 01:29:13,319
lah ban not Allah there mentioned in chapter fifty three,

1644
01:29:13,399 --> 01:29:16,199
verses nineteen and twenty of the crime. So Muhammad takes

1645
01:29:16,239 --> 01:29:19,640
this pagan conception of Allah and he tries to purify

1646
01:29:19,680 --> 01:29:23,039
it and turn this pagan conception of a law into

1647
01:29:23,079 --> 01:29:28,159
a conception that's similar to the Judeo Christian concept of God.

1648
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:29,239
That's who they are.

1649
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:33,800
Speaker 1: Okay, Eduardo for ten bucks, he says, thank you for

1650
01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:37,600
this stream. Thank you, EDWARDO. By the way, everybody, I've

1651
01:29:37,600 --> 01:29:39,880
got Sam's channel. If you want to subscribe to him,

1652
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:42,359
be sure and click on that and you can find

1653
01:29:42,399 --> 01:29:44,920
his link, and then you have what links to your

1654
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:47,199
website at your channel probably.

1655
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:50,319
Speaker 2: Or and I want the Christians to use these resources.

1656
01:29:50,399 --> 01:29:52,960
You have my permission download them, upload them to your

1657
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:55,279
websites and use it because I want more Christians to

1658
01:29:55,279 --> 01:29:57,159
get in the battle for the glory of to try

1659
01:29:57,199 --> 01:29:57,479
and God.

1660
01:29:57,560 --> 01:30:02,479
Speaker 1: So also, if you want, I did do for there's

1661
01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:06,600
a popular talk I did on Old Testament New Testament contradictions.

1662
01:30:06,640 --> 01:30:08,600
This one comes up all the time. Oh, you guys

1663
01:30:08,600 --> 01:30:11,039
contradict the Old Testament because you don't use this and that.

1664
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:15,600
Here's a three hour discussion talking about how there is

1665
01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:18,760
perfect continuity between it the Old and New Testament when

1666
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:22,840
we understand it properly. Let's see next one Russian anime

1667
01:30:22,960 --> 01:30:25,840
bought ten bucks. Here are more rubles for you, comrade.

1668
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:26,239
Thank you.

1669
01:30:27,039 --> 01:30:33,920
Speaker 3: Blessings from Russia and from Putin to you. Gwargasjorgios twenty bucks.

1670
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:36,199
Thank you for having sam on Jay. You have both

1671
01:30:36,359 --> 01:30:38,720
taught me a lot over the years. God bless you both.

1672
01:30:39,520 --> 01:30:42,520
Thank you, God bless you. I appreciate that email. Five bucks.

1673
01:30:42,760 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 1: What is the originist problem and how does it relate

1674
01:30:44,960 --> 01:30:48,800
to Islamic theology. We touched on that earlier and in

1675
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:57,520
it's the problem of predicating personal attributes or properties or

1676
01:30:57,600 --> 01:31:00,279
actions or attributes of God that are common to all

1677
01:31:00,319 --> 01:31:02,560
three persons to the Essence. So, for example, if we

1678
01:31:02,600 --> 01:31:05,960
say the Father is identical to the divine Essence in

1679
01:31:06,000 --> 01:31:08,479
a strict sense with no distinctions, then that would mean

1680
01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:11,680
that from all eternity there's a creation that he has

1681
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:14,760
to be provident over right, If he's eternally creator, then

1682
01:31:14,760 --> 01:31:17,039
he has to be have a creation he's eternally This

1683
01:31:17,079 --> 01:31:20,560
is this was origins reasoning for why there is an eternal,

1684
01:31:20,920 --> 01:31:24,279
recurring creation, and so it's one of the reasons why

1685
01:31:24,359 --> 01:31:29,079
we don't accept the the idea in neoplatonism that the

1686
01:31:29,199 --> 01:31:32,399
names are all synonymous with the essence. So thank you

1687
01:31:32,399 --> 01:31:33,960
for bringing that up. But we did touch on that

1688
01:31:34,039 --> 01:31:35,039
earlier email.

1689
01:31:34,920 --> 01:31:36,520
Speaker 2: But he was mentioning origin because I didn't know what

1690
01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:40,159
he's meant the origin the theologic right.

1691
01:31:40,199 --> 01:31:42,920
Speaker 1: So the early Church Father Origin taught that there were

1692
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:46,399
these recurring falls because there's an eternal creation, because to

1693
01:31:46,479 --> 01:31:49,800
be provident or to be father is an eternal essence,

1694
01:31:49,920 --> 01:31:52,760
essential relation in God. That's how he got to that

1695
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:55,279
conclusion of eternal falls, and that's why we don't believe

1696
01:31:55,359 --> 01:31:59,920
organism dense c dia is twenty bucks. God, blessed God.

1697
01:32:00,039 --> 01:32:03,760
Lets you thank you now, Bill f ten ninety nine.

1698
01:32:03,760 --> 01:32:05,720
I hope you will do another stream together. Yeah. Absolutely,

1699
01:32:05,760 --> 01:32:07,439
I think we had a great chat. I don't think

1700
01:32:07,680 --> 01:32:09,880
there's any probably could we can definitely come back and

1701
01:32:09,880 --> 01:32:12,760
do another talk on more textual proofs. I think that'd

1702
01:32:12,760 --> 01:32:13,399
be a great one to do.

1703
01:32:14,479 --> 01:32:16,800
Speaker 2: And you of the Old Testam Yeah absolutely.

1704
01:32:16,319 --> 01:32:19,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I haven't specifically done it. A talk on

1705
01:32:19,359 --> 01:32:20,920
Messianic prophecies, we should do that.

1706
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:23,560
Speaker 2: Invite me, man, I'd love to do it. That's one

1707
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:26,960
powerful tool. And just again by way, of testimony. Many

1708
01:32:27,039 --> 01:32:29,119
Muslims have come to faith by the grace of God

1709
01:32:29,159 --> 01:32:31,279
through Messianic prophecies because they're blown away.

1710
01:32:31,079 --> 01:32:33,319
Speaker 1: By it, right. Absolute, Yeah, it's one of the strongest

1711
01:32:33,319 --> 01:32:37,079
proofs of inspiration. Absolutely warm soda fifty dollars. My mom

1712
01:32:37,119 --> 01:32:39,520
will let me have her credit card. Thank you, Jay

1713
01:32:39,560 --> 01:32:42,239
and Sam well, thank you, and I'll send portion of

1714
01:32:42,239 --> 01:32:46,000
these super chests to Sam so much appreciated. Ing Bingi

1715
01:32:46,119 --> 01:32:50,159
five Canadian. He says, do Muslims consider Matthew, Mark, Luke

1716
01:32:50,279 --> 01:32:52,000
and John to all be corrupted?

1717
01:32:52,720 --> 01:32:56,640
Speaker 2: Yes, Muslims do not believe the Gospel of Jesus mentioned

1718
01:32:56,640 --> 01:33:00,840
in the Koran is the I was going to send

1719
01:33:00,840 --> 01:33:02,680
out to gospels. They don't believe Matthew, Mark, Luke and

1720
01:33:02,760 --> 01:33:06,520
John are the gospel that God gave to Jesus. As

1721
01:33:06,560 --> 01:33:09,439
far as the chron is concerned, they believe portions of

1722
01:33:09,479 --> 01:33:12,079
the Gospel of Jesus is found there. And how do

1723
01:33:12,119 --> 01:33:15,640
you know what portions of the Gospel of Jesus is there?

1724
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:18,199
Use the chron that's their filter. So if Jesus says

1725
01:33:18,239 --> 01:33:21,600
God is one, Jesus said it son of God. Nope,

1726
01:33:21,640 --> 01:33:23,319
he didn't say it. That's their standards.

1727
01:33:25,039 --> 01:33:28,199
Speaker 1: See me up on Tim Bucks. Hey, Sam, I know

1728
01:33:28,279 --> 01:33:30,359
we are talking Islam, but I wanted your thoughts on

1729
01:33:30,399 --> 01:33:35,239
the doctrine of salvation and compared to Orthodoxy. I tried

1730
01:33:35,279 --> 01:33:37,840
to ask you and David this for a while.

1731
01:33:38,439 --> 01:33:41,760
Speaker 2: You're you're talking to a person who's so ignorant of

1732
01:33:41,800 --> 01:33:43,960
the Orthodox tradition it would be a sin on my

1733
01:33:44,039 --> 01:33:45,359
part to talk about I don't.

1734
01:33:45,159 --> 01:33:47,600
Speaker 1: Know if you want to come to come to our

1735
01:33:47,680 --> 01:33:49,720
circles that you can ask that question. We'd be happy

1736
01:33:49,760 --> 01:33:50,279
to answer that.

1737
01:33:50,560 --> 01:33:52,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I one thing my motto is I do

1738
01:33:52,800 --> 01:33:55,720
not like to speak in ignorance about another tradition because

1739
01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:58,359
I don't want to dishonor the Lord offend people. So

1740
01:33:58,439 --> 01:34:01,239
hopefully if I have more time to study the Orthodox

1741
01:34:01,319 --> 01:34:04,199
understanding and see where the spread leads. But I do

1742
01:34:04,319 --> 01:34:08,520
not like to speak in ignorance and misrepresent people. Early on, unfortunately,

1743
01:34:08,560 --> 01:34:11,479
because I was influenced by the Jack Chick type of arguments,

1744
01:34:11,840 --> 01:34:14,159
I said a lot of things in ignorance and I regret,

1745
01:34:14,239 --> 01:34:15,439
but may God I've moscy on me.

1746
01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:18,159
Speaker 1: So but well, I think everybody, a lot of us

1747
01:34:18,159 --> 01:34:21,239
have been and that I had a radical evangelical phase

1748
01:34:21,279 --> 01:34:25,640
as well. So Emil for ten dollars. He says, here

1749
01:34:25,640 --> 01:34:29,479
are some other texts. Give me the wisdom that sits

1750
01:34:29,479 --> 01:34:32,920
by your throne. Whis no Solomon nine by an almighty

1751
01:34:33,039 --> 01:34:35,199
logos or word leapt down from heaven out of the

1752
01:34:35,239 --> 01:34:36,920
royal throne. Yeah, we read that when it was the

1753
01:34:36,960 --> 01:34:37,520
eighteen thank you.

1754
01:34:37,720 --> 01:34:40,359
Speaker 2: One thing I want to just encourage, sure, the brethren,

1755
01:34:41,159 --> 01:34:45,359
because there are passages in Sirac chapter one, verse four,

1756
01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:49,720
and Syrac chapter twenty four, verse nine, and Proverbs chapter

1757
01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:53,840
eight where wisdom is set to be created. Be prepared

1758
01:34:53,880 --> 01:34:56,960
to explain what it means. It doesn't mean created from nothing,

1759
01:34:57,079 --> 01:34:58,960
and explain that real quick. Let me just say this.

1760
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:01,680
I'll call you in a minute. I'm live streaming. I'll

1761
01:35:01,720 --> 01:35:05,239
call you back. I'll call you back. I'm live stream,

1762
01:35:05,279 --> 01:35:07,520
I'm doing live stream. I'll call you right back. How

1763
01:35:07,600 --> 01:35:09,720
much for five minutes? I love you? Call you back

1764
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:14,000
yellby Oh sorry, so yeah, sorry about that, James, my daughter.

1765
01:35:14,039 --> 01:35:14,439
Speaker 1: That's okay.

1766
01:35:18,279 --> 01:35:20,159
Speaker 2: So yeah, that was the question. Is just be prepared

1767
01:35:20,199 --> 01:35:23,159
to answer the charge that wisdom is created.

1768
01:35:24,920 --> 01:35:30,199
Speaker 1: Uh, Emperor tenfoil ten, He says, shameless sam Shamoon is

1769
01:35:30,199 --> 01:35:33,760
an absolute legend. God blessed fellas far from it, man,

1770
01:35:36,399 --> 01:35:39,760
that's traditional Christian too, he says, go another hour. I

1771
01:35:39,800 --> 01:35:41,720
think we'll have to set up another stream. I think

1772
01:35:41,760 --> 01:35:43,199
Sam's gonna have to go here a little bit, and

1773
01:35:43,239 --> 01:35:45,479
I may have to go to pretty soon. But we

1774
01:35:45,479 --> 01:35:47,600
we have, we had a good chat. I think we

1775
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:50,439
can do a messy and prophecy stream in the near future.

1776
01:35:52,239 --> 01:35:55,560
Jay savoid too. He says, Jay, can you get Bill

1777
01:35:55,760 --> 01:35:57,960
Warner on I don't know who Bill Warner is.

1778
01:35:58,600 --> 01:36:03,840
Speaker 2: Well, he's one of the leading experts on political, social, economic, military,

1779
01:36:04,039 --> 01:36:06,279
jihad Islam. So if you want to know about the

1780
01:36:06,319 --> 01:36:10,479
politics of Islam, the social economic aspects of Islam, Sharia

1781
01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:12,880
and all that, he is one of the top. So

1782
01:36:13,199 --> 01:36:17,199
I'd highly recommend you get Bill Warner, Jay Smith, Alfadi,

1783
01:36:17,399 --> 01:36:18,479
David Wood on.

1784
01:36:18,520 --> 01:36:24,319
Speaker 1: Islam Quiet convert one five three ten dollars. This is

1785
01:36:24,319 --> 01:36:27,079
one of the top five streams of all time. Well,

1786
01:36:27,119 --> 01:36:29,000
I don't know about that, but okay.

1787
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:30,479
Speaker 2: Thank you man, that's blessing to me.

1788
01:36:33,600 --> 01:36:37,520
Speaker 1: Much appreciated that for that compliment. Jason Void twenty a's again,

1789
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:42,239
He says, can you please highlight apostasy laws in modern

1790
01:36:42,439 --> 01:36:46,560
Islamic countries such as Dubai. I do not hear the

1791
01:36:46,600 --> 01:36:49,520
West debating this issue and it is troubling as they

1792
01:36:49,560 --> 01:36:53,479
invest a lot in the West for their agenda to

1793
01:36:53,479 --> 01:36:55,000
push Islam without criticism.

1794
01:36:55,520 --> 01:37:00,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very hard to pin down a country that's

1795
01:37:00,279 --> 01:37:02,079
follows strict Islamic