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Speaker 1: Imagine a king who decrees that sexual assault of female

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prisoners is now allowed. We would all agree that makes

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him a monster. Now consider the Koran, which allows taking

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women captives as sex slaves. That's morally abhorrent endorsement of

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sexual assault.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Everyone I speak to agrees on this. But when we

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bring up biblical slavery, callers bend over backwards to build

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a fortress of rationalizations. It was just gentle and dentured servitude,

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they say, or proclaim that God was just regulating existing culture,

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anything except the acknowledgment of what they should easily acknowledge

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with a fictional king, or when discussing the Quran. To

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be clear, Leviticus explicitly endorses buying slaves from foreign nations

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as property for the rest of their lives, even allowing

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the owner to bequeath them to his heirs. Exodus permits

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beating them so long as they survive a day or

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two before they die. Even Moses himself commands his warriors

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to keep young virgin prisoners as sex slaves. It's clear

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that the Bible contains full throated endorsement of slavery and

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sexual violence. If you can easily reject these atrocities in

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a hypothetical king or another religion's text. You owe it

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to yourself to hold your own book to the exact

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same standards. Owning human beings as property isn't moral just

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because a book says that the character of God of

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Abraham signed off on it. Ask yourself, why didn't the

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all powerful deity write three simple words, thou shall not.

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If you have any idea, give us a call, because

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the show starts now.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, everybody.

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Speaker 1: Today is July twenty six, twenty twenty six, and we

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want to welcome you all to the Atheist experience. My

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name is the Cross Examiner, and I'm excited to say

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that today we have the Godless Engineer.

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Speaker 3: How you doing, Hey, I'm doing pretty good, you know,

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just you know, chilling out over here, having a good Sunday.

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Speaker 4: I was working on getting a bunch of.

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Speaker 3: Videos ready for the channel, well both of my channels,

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because I got a Clips channel and then I've got

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just my normal channel, So been trying to get those ready.

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I've actually got like an actual response video that I'm

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putting out this week, So that's going to be something

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a bit different than normal.

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Speaker 2: Oh really, what are you responding to, Oh, well.

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Speaker 3: There's this there's been this popular thing going around where

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they're they're trying like some some people are trying to

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drudge up the Roman records for a historical Jesus, and

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so it's like, you know, I'm trying to put it

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into perspective and why they're not actually good records for

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you know, proving his existence at least from a historical perspective.

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Speaker 2: Right at least casting doubt.

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Speaker 1: I know that there's an active discussion amongst you and

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other people about the historicity of Jesus, but the lack

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of records in a society as fastidious as Rome, who

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had as many records as they do, does raise some

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interesting questions as to the veracity of the claims that

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Jesus even existed. What records are they trying to claim

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are proof?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you know the ones that they always

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go for, like the Tastis and joe Cephis and everything

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like that.

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Speaker 2: It's nothing new or nothing new, got it? Okay, Yeah,

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it's nothing new.

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Speaker 3: They're just acting like, oh, look, you know there's this

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there's these records, and so it's like every few years

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people are like, oh wait a second, have they thought

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about these and it's.

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Speaker 1: Like, oh yes, and what is supposedly the single most

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important question of their lives and many people's lives and

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all the people's lives for the last two thousand years

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who were Christian?

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Speaker 2: Have they thought about these records?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they might have.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, So how active is that debate right now?

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Would you say of people sort of in academic serviles

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or otherwise, of people sort of requestioning like, wait a second,

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We've all just sort of assumed that the Jesus character

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was real that points to a literal, single human named

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Jesus who did these things. And maybe it's an amalgamation

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like a Robin Hood legend or a George Washington saying

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I could I cannot tell a lie type of stories

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evolving around the character. Is that still up for debate?

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Are academics still sort of writing about this?

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, in different respects.

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Speaker 3: I mean there's nobody that's out there, like I guess

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directly making like a journal article necessarily journal article necessarily

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that specifically like Jesus didn't exist. It's more like it's

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more like there are several different people that are out

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there writing articles which I'm actually going to be one

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of those people that's writing an article not pushing mythicism necessarily,

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but just from a different perspective analyzing biblical texts like

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the original texts and everything like that, which I can

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talk about later if necessary, if anybody wants me to,

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but ententially, like I know, we there's some people out

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there that have put that that actually have dronal articles

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that are going to be coming out soon about like

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whether or not pre Christian Jews expected at dying and

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rising Messiah and then break think yeah. And then there's

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a doctor Aaron Adair who is doing analysis on the

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Josephus question specifically where he's actually been able to use

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a style of metric method to prove that the testimony

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of is more Eusebian in nature than josephin and so

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he's got a paper that he's putting out soon about that.

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So you know, it's a it's different parts of it,

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and none of them directly say Jesus didn't exist, but

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it's more like bits and pieces of the minimal mythsist

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hypothesis that's actually making it through peer review and the

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main minimum that system. You know, literature has actually already

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been put through peer reviews. So it's not like we

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need to do that again necessarily, but you know, it

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always helps to have other people looking at various parts

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of any hypothesis.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's a thing that distinguishes academic research from others.

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And on both sides, right, you'll have a lot of

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Christian theists who are trying to publish papers, and the

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good ones all welcome that sort of scrutiny that you

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want somebody to come in and attack your ideas, and

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I think it speaks volumes that we may never have.

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Speaker 2: You know, hey, here.

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Speaker 1: Is proof that Jesus never existed, but it speaks volumes

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to say that. Like, the question can be asked and

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the proper answer at this point is we don't know.

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Like the needle has moved from everybody presuming that this

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was a real character to I don't know. And that's

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a huge step for a lot of people to have

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sort of said I'm not sure. The typical argument I

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hear or a typical response I hear is I don't know.

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But it's kind of irrelevant because what we really want

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to talk about is did he perform miracles and all

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of those sorts of things. But I think the question

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of whether or not he existed. If you could get

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to the bottom of that, that would be fascinating. If

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you discovered a treasure trove of documents that all sort

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of had bits and pieces of the story being punched

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up over the decades into a single story like you

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had with King Arthur or Robin dood and stuff, that

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would be amazing, amazing evidence. And the fact that we

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don't have it is means we have to just say

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we don't know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that you know, it definitely speaks volumes

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to the veracity of the claims that Jesus existed, that

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we just simply don't have. Like the kind of evidence

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that we have for other history figures, like even mundane

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historical figures, we don't have the We don't have the

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same thing for Jesus. And I think that considering how

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important he was to the first century and to a

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lot of people in the first century, you would think

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that there would be some but there's just not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating. Well, I'd like to get to callers real quickly.

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We do have some callers in the cube, but our

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other lines are open, so feel free to call in now.

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At all of the information you see below here. We've

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got phone numbers, we've got our U r L and

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we also have online visitors who are visiting via TikTok

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and things like that. So let me read in some

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announcements and then we'll get to our callers. So we

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have the first announcement, of course, is always about who

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we are and what we do. We are the Atheist

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Experience and we are a product of the Atheist Community

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of Austin, a five oh one c three nonprofit organization

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dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,

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and the separation of religion and government. This means that

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you can give us tax free donations as many as

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you want in fact, and know that not only is

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it going to a good cause, but it also helps

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you too. We are try streaming tonight, so a big

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shout out to our viewers on TikTok and YouTube mobile.

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If you are watching us on TikTok tonight and you'd

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like to talk to us, just request to join and

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we'll bring you up on stage. Please be sure, however,

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that you're over eighteen years of age before doing so.

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Now we do have somebody in the call. Dan is

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the caller. I think we're waiting for him to get

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cleared by our screeners, so looking forward to hearing from Dan.

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I'll do another quick announcement while we're waiting for that,

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because Dan's the first call I do want to take.

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I will cut straight to the chase regarding the big announcement,

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which is, as always, the Back Cruise. We're excited to

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announce the launch of our twenty twenty six Back Cruise

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August fifteenth, market on your calend at seven pm. Tickets

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are now on sale and they're going fast. Half of

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our available tickets have already been sold. They're going to

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be exciting events all weekend, including a special guest lecture

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on Friday, a community outing and activity during the day

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on Saturday, followed by our annual members town hall, and

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your favorite ACA shows filmed live from the Free Throat

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Library on Sunday. Confirmed features guests include genetically Modified Skeptic,

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the Antibot Thinker, Godless Engineer, You're going to be there,

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j Mike Objectively, Dan Secularity, and Kelly Laughlin, who happens

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to be our backup host tonight.

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Speaker 2: He's listening in, Hi, Kelly.

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Speaker 1: Look for more announcements in the coming weeks about other

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hosts that will be attending. Tickets are available at ACA

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Dot Show Slash Back Crewise. So Godless, you're going to

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be at the Back Cruise this year.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I am, and they asked me to come out,

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and you know, I was trying to figure out how

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it could work it in, you know, with my schedule

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and everything, and luckily I was able to work that out.

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So yeah, both Casey and I are going to be

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coming out there, and it's going to be a great time.

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Speaker 4: I can't wait to see everybody.

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Speaker 2: Awesome. Have you been before?

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Speaker 4: No, this will be the first time.

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Speaker 1: Ah nice. I have been once and it was super

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duper fun. Like the bat Just just witnessing the bats

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is an amazing thing. But even more fun is getting

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to see the library, talking to everybody sitting on those

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fun shows where they have a lot of people hosting.

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I'll be watching remotely this year, won't be attending, but

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I wish you well and I hope you have fun there.

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All right, we've switched to another caller here.

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Speaker 2: We've got Julie.

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Speaker 1: My name is Julie, she says, and I'm calling about

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the current topic, slavery and the Bible at the Bible

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said it was okay, Julie, are you on the line

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with us, Yes, Julie, what would you like to talk about?

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Speaker 5: H Well, I wanted to relate a conversation that I

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had with a friend.

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Speaker 6: And here it is.

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Speaker 5: I'll just read a little bit of it to you.

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It's a text. It says, dear John, I've been learning

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a lot about the Bible lately, and it condones stoning

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your child for talking back, selling your daughter to her rapists,

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and beating your slaves until they are.

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Speaker 2: Close to death.

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Speaker 5: So what he said back was, thanks, Julie, I will

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be sure to address these accusations and some future infographics.

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Can you give you the arguments that suggests these conclusions.

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It will be good to show both sides of the arguments.

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So I wrote back, and I said, these are not

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accusations or arguments. These are just relating to you what's

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in the Bible. And so anyways, I thought it's pretty

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funny and everything.

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Speaker 1: And you know, is this a person you're in a

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friendly relationship with or just some stranger on the internet,

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or how did this collect it?

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Speaker 2: Good?

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Speaker 5: No, this is somebody actually that we went to church

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together when we were like in high school in early

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college days, and you know, now we're in our sixties,

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and you know, I left Christianity when I was probably

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twenty years old, and I think it did a lot

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of damage to me. So like, so, anyway, is this

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guy he's still really really into it?

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Speaker 2: Gotcha? John?

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Speaker 1: What are your thoughts to are those accusations or do

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those seem like kind of quotes from the Bible?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, those are direct quotes from the Bible. I mean, yeah,

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definitely not accusations in that respect, simply due to the

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fact that you know, you just got to be literate

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and have a Bible and know which versus reach uh,

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because I mean everything that you said are I mean,

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there's summaries of the verses, they're not direct quotes. But

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I mean, if you could, you know, providing him with

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the direct quotes.

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Speaker 5: Uh.

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Speaker 3: I've been in conversations with people where they're like, what

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what what version are you reading? Are you reading the

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kJ V version? And I'm like, is that going to

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make it better? Like if I read it in Old English?

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Is that gonna make like the pronouncement to sell your

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daughter into sexual slavery?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 4: Is that is that going to make it any better.

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Speaker 3: And and you know they're you know, they're adamant about it,

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you know, being out of context because of the version

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you're reading, or you know, they want to frame it

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as being indentured servitude only, and that's just a misreading

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of the text. I mean, it's very obvious when it

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says you may purchase slaves from the nations around you,

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they may be your property for life. Like how else

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are you supposed to read that? Like you're just like

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all you got to do is be literate and just

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know the words that are on the page exactly right.

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Speaker 5: And then you know, like I also just went online

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and like put those sentences into you know, AI and

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looked them up, and they came up with the Bible.

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Speaker 6: Versus that they matched up with. So you know, it's

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really easy.

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Speaker 1: So even even less literacy required that he could literally

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if he wanted to google it himself and read the

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words on the page.

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Speaker 2: So let me ask you something.

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Speaker 1: When you were younger and in the Christian faith, did

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you do Bible study classes or Bible study organizations with

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your church?

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Speaker 5: Yes, all the time, although I tried to ditch alze

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those about hiking.

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Speaker 1: Or something, so did they What did they start with?

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This has been a kick that I've been on for

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a while. Like when I go to study a book,

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like if I go to a book club, or we're

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going to go to study a writer on a technical

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issue or even a legal issue, that's my background.

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Speaker 2: You you read a.

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Speaker 1: Little bit about who is this and why should I

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listen to them?

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Speaker 7: Right?

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Speaker 2: That's kind of standard practice if you're.

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Speaker 1: You really want to learn about a book, Like if

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I'm going to study Lord of the Rings, I need

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to study JR. O Token the time he was alive,

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what his philosophy was, like, what was he trying to achieve?

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Speaker 2: What other works did he do?

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Speaker 1: But when people when I've been approached to do Bible

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study in my life, the first thing they talk about

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is things like Matthew, Mark Luke and John Jesus Loves You,

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all of the fun stuff. They don't start with either

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the Old Testament, the Bible, indoors of slavery, or the

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earth is you know, the talking snake and all of

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that sort of stuff. They start with the fuzzy stuff.

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Then they get to the slightly like guilt creation stuff,

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But they never seem to talk about the Bible endorses slavery.

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The Bible contains stories where God is telling people through

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his prophets and spokespeople to murder children and things like that.

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Did you ever get told any of that stuff in

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your Bible study?

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Speaker 4: Pluss at all?

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Speaker 6: No, none of that. I mean, it was really like a.

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Speaker 5: Focus on the Gospels and the Jesus loves you stuff

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and well, and speaking of the Jesus loves you stuff,

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like on the highway where I lived, somebody put up

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like four signs that said Jesus loves you and they

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were on like a busy.

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Speaker 6: Traffic circle. And you know, like.

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Speaker 5: In California, you're you're not allowed to put signs up

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on any California state highway. So it's a long story,

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but I followed all the rules and the laws and

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I took the signs down. They would have been taken

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down eventually by by cal Trans, but I took them

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down and there was a an address on there, so

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I emailed that address and I just told them the

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rules and stuff, and I told him, you know, like

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you're you know, cal Trans could find you and basically

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they take your sign down and then they're going to

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find you if you want your signs you can come

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get them. So I just said, well, I have your

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signs if you want them. But I took them down

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because the neighbors were all like bugged about them, and

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you know, they're distracting and they're illegal, and so like

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about a year later, a person who i'll call my

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ex friend now, but they they said, you know, I

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was really offended. You took those signs down and you

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threw them away, which I didn't do. You actually recycled

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them when the person never answered my email. But so

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this person got when I explained, you know, what I did,

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and then it was all legal and everything and I

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did it for my community. And so they they're just

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like really pissed off and they won't talk to me anymore.

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And I'm like, wow, this person was like a friend

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for like fifty years, you know what I mean, how could.

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Speaker 2: They That's just so that's stunning.

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Speaker 1: Like I've taken a lot of calls of you know,

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family members kicking their kids out of the house when

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they come out as gay or atheistic or things like that. Yeah,

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I've heard of a lot of strife between friends when

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people are actively sort of like protesting against religion or

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things like that. But all you did was, you know,

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take down some signs that weren't supposed to be there.

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And in California has a lot of laws that let

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citizens do certain things, Like in California, you can go

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and if you see that a building is not eighty

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A compliant, you can file a report and it incentivizes

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you to do that, and California's working with that method.

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So there are probably laws like you said that are like, hey,

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you see something on the side of the highway and

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you want to take it down, you can do that

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if X, Y and.

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Speaker 2: Z or true.

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Speaker 1: So have you ever heard of that that john this

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level of I assume you just told a friend. Oh,

375
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by the way, this happened that. Can you believe somebody

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had all these signs up illegally? I went and took

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them down, and then they broke off a fifty year

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relationship because you took the sign down, not their signs.

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You just told a friend about some third party.

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Speaker 6: Right right.

381
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Speaker 5: I just brought up And they didn't even bring it

382
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up until like a year later when we had some

383
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kind of disagreement over something, and then they brought it up,

384
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you know, So I thought, hmmm, So they've been harboring

385
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this thing against me, like all this time. They never

386
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said anything about it, and you know, I mean I

387
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assume too that they were just ignorant and didn't know

388
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the rules and the laws. And by the way, there's

389
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a group, an atheist group, I think they're called the

390
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Atheist Pirates or something in Los Angeles, and they go

391
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out and they document all the illegal signs and they

392
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take certain ones down, and you know, so, I mean,

393
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I would join them if I were closer to them,

394
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but I'm not.

395
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Speaker 2: John.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever have anything in your life like that

397
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where somebody broke off a relationship with you because of

398
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your beliefs and it was sort of like the mildest

399
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:55,759
of things.

400
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Speaker 3: No, I mean, I had family members when I first

401
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,039
started posting like this. This is like more than fourteen

402
00:21:05,079 --> 00:21:08,359
years ago, But when I first started posting about atheism

403
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,960
and everything, you know, I had some family members that

404
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broke off contact on social media, but never like any

405
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kind of friends that that broke off that kind of thing.

406
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So I ended up breaking off some of my like

407
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in real life contacts around here after I became an

408
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atheist because of the fact that they I guess they

409
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took my new position as like some kind of challenge

410
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to like, you know, pick on me and bully me

411
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as much as they could. And I guess I don't

412
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know if it was maybe to bully me back into

413
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believing or something, but but yeah, so, I mean I

414
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ended up having to end that kind of toxic relationship.

415
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But you know, I've got plenty of relationships now, like

416
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like friendly acquaintances and everything like that that aren't necessarily.

417
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Speaker 4: Atheists, and.

418
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Speaker 3: So I mean, you know, it's it can be, it

419
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can be a bit straining there On occasion.

420
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Speaker 1: Julie was there were there other other things going on

421
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and this was just an excuse or this was the

422
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long Harvard rudge and it came out, what do do

423
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some there was an excuse to bring it up.

424
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Speaker 6: I'm not, yeah, you know what, like I'm not really sure.

425
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Speaker 5: But the other thing is like this person knows like

426
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nothing at all about.

427
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Speaker 6: My religion or my faith.

428
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Speaker 5: And they actually also like said that they didn't know

429
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my feelings about Jesus had changed, is the one thing

430
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they said.

431
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Speaker 6: And they said that they.

432
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Speaker 5: Basically acted like I'm some kind of like fallen Christian

433
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and like I've made a practice of like not telling

434
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anybody anything about my faith and my religion whatever it

435
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,799
might be, because I feel like it's none of their

436
00:22:56,839 --> 00:22:58,160
business and you know a.

437
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Speaker 6: Lot of them are just going to judge me.

438
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Speaker 5: So so anyway, sisters, and I've never talked to her

439
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any at all about you know, faith and religion.

440
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Speaker 6: And although, like I.

441
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Speaker 5: Said in high school is when I, you know, went

442
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through a bad hard time with my family breaking up

443
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and stuff, and I became a bored again Christian and

444
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all that, and you know, it was told that Jesus

445
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loves you and all that, and you know, I mean it,

446
00:23:25,519 --> 00:23:28,680
you know it wasn't true. And you know, you figure

447
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,079
out after a while that you know, there is no

448
00:23:31,319 --> 00:23:34,720
God there, Like there's nobody listening to you. There's nobody

449
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that talks back and says, hey, you know, I'm.

450
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Speaker 6: Going to help you or I love you.

451
00:23:40,799 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 1: Was there any portion of your Christian experience that was

452
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positive just to sort of give give that the other

453
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side of fair play.

454
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Speaker 2: Was there any positive association with that experience?

455
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Speaker 6: Well? Yes, yeah there was.

456
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Speaker 5: I mean what was positive is like we did a

457
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lot of campeiging. We did a lot of out door stuff.

458
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Speaker 1: Like you know, stuff that didn't require you to believe

459
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in God. You could have you could have been a

460
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bunch of atheists camping or a bunch of atheists. Well, no,

461
00:24:10,839 --> 00:24:13,960
I'm just saying the activity that you enjoyed and that

462
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,279
was rewarding. That activity in and of itself does not

463
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,400
necessarily require that you be a Christian or a Hindu

464
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or whatever.

465
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Speaker 2: Anybody could go camping.

466
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Speaker 1: They could have made it secular, but if you wanted

467
00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:28,599
to come on this particular camping trip, you had to

468
00:24:28,599 --> 00:24:32,400
be Christian, which I very sad.

469
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Speaker 5: That's what it was because it was sponsored by the church.

470
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And so one of the camps I went to was

471
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called Quaker Meadow that was up in the Eras and

472
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it was just like.

473
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Speaker 6: A beautiful place. And I was just thinking of.

474
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Speaker 5: One of the games that we played was called a

475
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concentration camp.

476
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Speaker 6: And what we would do.

477
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Speaker 2: Is how old were you?

478
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 5: It was called how old?

479
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? How old were you? Were you? How old were people? Playing?

480
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,599
Speaker 4: A game called all right in high school?

481
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,519
Speaker 2: And what you had was it about? Was it about

482
00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:05,640
concentrating really hard?

483
00:25:06,799 --> 00:25:09,799
Speaker 5: But no, it was about like like we divided into

484
00:25:09,839 --> 00:25:13,880
two groups and like the girl the girls and the

485
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,359
boys had their own little groups.

486
00:25:16,599 --> 00:25:18,799
Speaker 6: The each had a camp counselor.

487
00:25:18,319 --> 00:25:21,279
Speaker 5: But like the whole maybe it was like one hundred

488
00:25:21,319 --> 00:25:25,839
kids altogether, and so got divided into two big groups,

489
00:25:25,839 --> 00:25:28,640
and one had to rescue the other groups from one

490
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:30,559
side of the camp and bring him to the other

491
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:31,480
side of the camp.

492
00:25:32,599 --> 00:25:37,759
Speaker 1: And I tell you, these folks do some funny stuff.

493
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 2: I'll tell you.

494
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,079
Speaker 1: I don't know if you saw in the news, like

495
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,839
last month, there was a I think it was in Kentucky.

496
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,079
There was a Baptist church that simulated the execution of

497
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,839
the devil by using soldiers coming in using simulated machine

498
00:25:50,839 --> 00:25:54,079
guns and shooting a guy on near the altar near

499
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,839
the front of the room, with like six year old

500
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,480
kids screaming and cheering on. The pastor had to get

501
00:26:00,519 --> 00:26:02,559
online and do a follow up video once it was

502
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,920
leaked and explain themselves. And I think that speaks to

503
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,799
my reaction to what I hear from you, the signs right,

504
00:26:10,839 --> 00:26:15,519
the reaction of the person regarding the signs. It speaks

505
00:26:15,559 --> 00:26:18,359
to the time we live in. I think that the

506
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,519
scariest thing to me about religion is that it lends

507
00:26:21,799 --> 00:26:25,640
support to somebody's idea that they know better than everybody else.

508
00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:29,599
Because I am following Jesus. I am above the law.

509
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,079
To summarize it, right, I can put my signs there

510
00:26:32,279 --> 00:26:34,799
even though it's against the law, because it's for Jesus.

511
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,039
There's a trend that you've seen, and I think the

512
00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:38,640
New York Times just did a piece on this. Some

513
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,960
outlets did a piece on this of you're on a

514
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,640
plane and some Christians stands up and starts preaching to

515
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:51,720
the whole plane, right, and again, if the flight attendant

516
00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:54,839
tells you to sit down, federal law says you need

517
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,240
to sit down and obey the flight crew, right, that

518
00:26:57,559 --> 00:27:00,319
we need order in the sky to avoid problems. And

519
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,160
they ignore that. You know, they're again breaking the law

520
00:27:03,759 --> 00:27:07,480
because God is on my side. They're so convinced of

521
00:27:07,519 --> 00:27:10,559
this that they ignore parts of the Bible that say,

522
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,279
you know, give the government its due, obey the laws

523
00:27:13,279 --> 00:27:16,119
of your land. That doesn't matter because in their mind

524
00:27:16,559 --> 00:27:19,559
they're saving lives, they're bringing people to Jesus and protecting

525
00:27:19,599 --> 00:27:21,880
them from Hell, and they are so convinced of this

526
00:27:22,079 --> 00:27:26,000
reality that they want to go out and do these things. However,

527
00:27:26,559 --> 00:27:30,319
part of me suspects that they aren't convinced, and it

528
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,039
is the doing of the thing that where they are

529
00:27:33,079 --> 00:27:36,240
trying to convince themselves that they're convinced. If you get

530
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,720
my drift, like if I get up and do this

531
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,799
little drama in the sky, or if I clutch my

532
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,680
pearls about you taking your signs down, that shows that's

533
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,079
an objective demonstration that I truly believe. Therefore, I must

534
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,559
truly believe those little doubts that sit in the back

535
00:27:56,599 --> 00:27:59,119
of my brain at night can be ignored because look

536
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,599
what I did. I don't know John, your experience there

537
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:08,839
with young indoctrination and getting kids to account, like I forget.

538
00:28:08,839 --> 00:28:10,519
I think it was an organization called young Life that

539
00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:12,319
I was invited to several times when I was in

540
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,160
high school, where it's like, hey, come and sleep over

541
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,720
at the church and hang out with your friends. And

542
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,839
I did it a few times, and sure enough, at

543
00:28:17,839 --> 00:28:20,119
some point in the evening there was a there was

544
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:20,720
the hard cell.

545
00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 2: Did you ever go through that?

546
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I.

547
00:28:23,599 --> 00:28:26,839
Speaker 3: Mean growing up in the South, I mean, church was

548
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,119
a pretty central place, you know, and so whenever there

549
00:28:31,279 --> 00:28:33,440
was any kind of like youth group activity, it.

550
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 4: Was always oh, nice fun things.

551
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,559
Speaker 3: But then you know, they'd pull out the Jesus and

552
00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:42,200
so obviously that was meant to like hook the younger

553
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,559
generation and everything, and in some respects it kind of

554
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:47,119
worked on me. I guess I would go in and

555
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,240
out of religious adherents, you know, while I was a

556
00:28:50,319 --> 00:28:53,559
teenager and whatnot. I would never stop believing, but you know,

557
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,599
I would be like devout and then just sort of,

558
00:28:57,079 --> 00:29:00,839
I guess just lacks a daisical I guess maybe is

559
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:05,319
a good way of describing it. And so, uh, I

560
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:09,200
definitely experienced that the whole hard cell of like, oh,

561
00:29:09,279 --> 00:29:12,079
let's do something fun, but now let's learn about Jesus

562
00:29:12,079 --> 00:29:14,920
and how you're a sinful, dirty bastard kind of thing.

563
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,519
Speaker 4: And uh yeah, it's.

564
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,559
Speaker 1: Like the emotional equivalent of getting your Halloween candy and

565
00:29:20,599 --> 00:29:22,440
there's a hidden chick track in the in the middle

566
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,359
of it that's telling you you're going to hell. Yeah,

567
00:29:25,599 --> 00:29:27,880
So so Julie, go ahead, go ahead.

568
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 5: Sorry, Yeah, Well, I was gonna say one of the

569
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,240
things I noticed about this person and other people that

570
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:38,880
are Christians, and not not all Christians, but they have

571
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:42,799
this like a smug look sort of like there it's

572
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,720
like the holier than now kind of or the self

573
00:29:46,839 --> 00:29:52,880
righteous look or somehow that they're they think that there's

574
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,079
a God that like looks out for them all the time,

575
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,160
and their life's all planned out. And even I know,

576
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,519
there's like billions of people in the world, and.

577
00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 6: There's all these different religions, somehow like they're just I

578
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:09,200
don't know.

579
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,799
Speaker 5: I guess it's good to believe that you're a special person,

580
00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:15,440
that you're you know, worthwhile and all that. But but

581
00:30:15,559 --> 00:30:18,759
to think that, you know, like everything that happens to

582
00:30:18,759 --> 00:30:20,519
you is just all planned.

583
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 6: Out and God has your life.

584
00:30:21,799 --> 00:30:25,039
Speaker 5: And but but all you other people, well you know

585
00:30:25,279 --> 00:30:27,480
you're not you're you know, you're nothing.

586
00:30:28,119 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, we could get into a whole discussion about whether

587
00:30:31,759 --> 00:30:35,440
or you know, if God could pick any version of reality,

588
00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:39,599
if there's a nearly infinite timelines he could pick of

589
00:30:39,799 --> 00:30:42,039
where I'm not an atheist, or I am an atheist,

590
00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:44,319
or that person is a murderer or is not a murderer,

591
00:30:44,559 --> 00:30:46,799
and he could create any universe he wanted to where

592
00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:50,480
we're all still making free choices according to Christianity, but

593
00:30:50,599 --> 00:30:53,400
we just make some good choices and all of that,

594
00:30:53,759 --> 00:30:56,839
God somehow chose this timeline as the best one. Therefore,

595
00:30:57,319 --> 00:31:02,839
the murderer and the child abuser and the atheists are

596
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,480
all part of God's plan. But using the logic of

597
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,720
you know, God has a plan for me, well, you

598
00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:12,279
know this is all the best that God would want.

599
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:14,920
He wants a being to have made the choice where

600
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,839
he is an atheist or not, have been convinced to

601
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,079
be an atheist, and to make a choice to murder somebody. So, yeah,

602
00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:24,400
it does get frustrating when you're dealing with somebody with

603
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,079
that smug look. However, I do view it as a

604
00:31:28,079 --> 00:31:31,960
bit of indoctrination. I see that same look across multiple

605
00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:36,960
different religious belief systems, and they all have contradictory claims,

606
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,480
so they can't all be right. But when you ask them,

607
00:31:39,519 --> 00:31:42,759
what if you're wrong, you get a Usually you get

608
00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:47,519
a big fat I'm not wrong. Like the concept of

609
00:31:47,599 --> 00:31:51,920
being wrong is so it would if they were wrong,

610
00:31:52,079 --> 00:31:54,559
or even possibly admitting that they might re wrong is

611
00:31:54,599 --> 00:31:59,079
so shattering to their worldview that they push that way

612
00:31:59,119 --> 00:32:01,200
way way out of the head. And that's what gives

613
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:05,119
them the self righteous power to stand up and preach

614
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,359
to the plane or to shout at people who are

615
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,160
walking on the sidewalk. You've seen these guys with the

616
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,160
backpacks on their back, with megaphones and telling people they're

617
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:14,839
going to go to hell.

618
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: It can be very frustrating.

619
00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: So where is it going with your your associate to

620
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,839
whom you said, Hey, I've got these questions? Are you

621
00:32:24,839 --> 00:32:25,799
framing it as questions?

622
00:32:25,839 --> 00:32:26,039
Speaker 2: Hey?

623
00:32:26,079 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: Like, what's up with all of these quotes in the

624
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,359
Bible that the black and white language says it's not

625
00:32:31,519 --> 00:32:36,640
only okay but desirable to own slaves or murder babies

626
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,400
and things like that. Is that person somebody you have

627
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,000
an interest in continuing conversation with or you were just

628
00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:45,079
trying to rub their noses in it for fun and profit.

629
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 5: I just you know, I just brought that up. Yeah,

630
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:54,440
those those points, and you know you recalled the you know,

631
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,279
the answers of you know, let me turn it into

632
00:32:57,319 --> 00:32:59,960
an infographic and show the two different sides.

633
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,599
Speaker 4: So it's like, well, you know.

634
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:03,799
Speaker 6: There aren't two different sides.

635
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,839
Speaker 5: I mean, it's in there, It's in the Bible.

636
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, But are you But my question is are you

637
00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:12,200
interested in having a genuine conversation with this person? Like

638
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,880
once they publish infographics back to you, are you like, hey,

639
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,599
are you would you like to have a cup of

640
00:33:17,599 --> 00:33:20,119
coffee and talk about this and maybe you can explain

641
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,559
to me this passage or that passage in the Bible,

642
00:33:22,599 --> 00:33:25,200
and I've got them highlighted here, explained to me how

643
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:27,599
I'm supposed to know that this doesn't mean what it

644
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,880
literally says, those sorts of questions.

645
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 6: No, well, no, I'm not really interested in that.

646
00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:35,079
Speaker 5: I mean, what I'm talking to him about now is

647
00:33:35,119 --> 00:33:38,799
like he believes that our country is.

648
00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 6: A Christian nation, which is not true.

649
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: You know, well, it depends on how you define Christian nation.

650
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:48,759
Like my response to him would be, what what do

651
00:33:48,799 --> 00:33:51,720
you mean? Do you mean that it's a nation that

652
00:33:52,079 --> 00:33:55,480
is populated by a majority Christian? That may may well

653
00:33:55,559 --> 00:33:59,880
be true, but that's also irrelevant, right, Like, so what, yeah,

654
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:02,599
you know, to the extent it's true, it's trivial, to

655
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,559
the extent it's meaningful, it's it doesn't it's irrelevant.

656
00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 2: So well, he so.

657
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:15,199
Speaker 5: Believe he thinks that that Trump was appointed or chosen

658
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,000
by God.

659
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 6: And if you believe that.

660
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 5: And I went and looked up you know, well where

661
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,760
did that come from? And you know they said like

662
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,760
Franklin Franklin Graham was one of the ones that started

663
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,639
that that why you know, and then you know the

664
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:33,800
big history and there's a bunch of preachers that like.

665
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,039
Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna I'm going to cut in here because

666
00:34:36,039 --> 00:34:37,639
we're a five oh one c. Three, We're not going

667
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:42,079
to talk about specific political figures. So I will confirm, Yes,

668
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,280
I think people like Billy Graham did say various political

669
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,559
leaders are appointed by God. John, if you run into

670
00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:53,320
those arguments of various political leaders being sent from God,

671
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:54,960
and what the implications are.

672
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 3: There, Yeah, And I mean they typically you know, and

673
00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:03,039
here to some sure, I think mainly from the Epistles

674
00:35:03,039 --> 00:35:08,199
Appaulled I think where it says that the rulers, like

675
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,119
the earthly rulers, are appointed by God, and so like

676
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,239
they kind of go along with that kind of scripture

677
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,760
in order to verify that. But if that were the case,

678
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,639
then they would also have to admit that God wanted.

679
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 2: Like other leaders they didn't aggressive greed.

680
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

681
00:35:26,119 --> 00:35:28,599
Speaker 3: But I also think that it's used in a way

682
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:34,320
that definitely absolves these leaders from any kind of scrutiny.

683
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,519
And I think that that is the real danger, especially

684
00:35:37,559 --> 00:35:40,440
coming from you know, this this side of the isle

685
00:35:40,559 --> 00:35:44,599
that seems to heavily vote to keep child marriage on

686
00:35:44,639 --> 00:35:49,400
the books, that seems to want to want to hide

687
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:55,000
hide abusers in their particular on their particular side of

688
00:35:55,039 --> 00:35:58,880
the aisle, they constantly want to do all of those things,

689
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:00,400
and it's all because of the Good.

690
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,679
Speaker 2: Lord, you know, yeah, absolutely.

691
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: I think if the argument is the Bible says God

692
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,320
anointed your leaders basically and picked them and all of

693
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,599
that stuff, then if they say, well, i'm gonna, I'm gonna,

694
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,079
I'm gonna say that means that I should praise and

695
00:36:18,119 --> 00:36:21,280
support my leader when it's somebody I like, then they

696
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,800
should do it for somebody they don't like. On the

697
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,679
other hand, if they switch to the argument to say, well,

698
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:29,519
when it's God picked this other leader I don't like,

699
00:36:30,559 --> 00:36:34,039
and that is God's creating a test for me to

700
00:36:34,159 --> 00:36:37,119
go out and fight and protest and argue against this leader,

701
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,719
then the question is, how do you know which is which? Really,

702
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,320
all you're telling me is that the one you don't

703
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,760
like is the one you don't like, and the one

704
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,599
that you like is the one that you like. If

705
00:36:48,639 --> 00:36:51,880
you're just gonna switch your interpretation of who God supports

706
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,039
and doesn't just based on that, you've got a real problem.

707
00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:58,199
Because I think you pointed out the exact thing I

708
00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:01,760
would bring up, John, which is when a leader does

709
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:08,280
criminal things. When a leader has various things that are

710
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:13,159
non biblical in their past that are felonies, there's all

711
00:37:13,199 --> 00:37:16,360
sorts of reasons that you would expect a Bible thumping

712
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,199
Christian to say, this is the leader that God wanted.

713
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:23,800
You wanted to test me with. He wanted to tempt

714
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,920
me with this, and my job is to protest against him.

715
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,440
But they don't do that that.

716
00:37:28,519 --> 00:37:30,639
Speaker 6: He was like King Cyrus.

717
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 1: I don't even know who King Cyrus is, John, are

718
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:34,280
you familiar?

719
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,639
Speaker 6: He was a failed leader. He was some kind of

720
00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:38,280
failed leader.

721
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,639
Speaker 1: Gotcha, I'm unfamiliar with that. Do you know anything more

722
00:37:41,639 --> 00:37:44,679
about King Cyrus? John or Julie?

723
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know much

724
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:49,440
about King Cyrus.

725
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,639
Speaker 3: But I do know that the way that some people

726
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,880
prop up certain individuals, you know, in our current sociopolitical environment,

727
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,519
does a lot of harm. For one, because it really

728
00:38:03,559 --> 00:38:08,239
intertwines this, you know, this sort of spiritual sense that

729
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:15,840
people seem to use in order to frame certain actions

730
00:38:16,039 --> 00:38:21,000
in various ways that seem to be divine in nature.

731
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:24,039
And I think that once people can contextualize things in

732
00:38:24,079 --> 00:38:27,559
a divine way, then that's it's it's just an easy

733
00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:31,280
road to get them to accept that kind of behavior

734
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:35,400
as being normalized and being a good thing. And I

735
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,880
think that that's where you get the whole, the whole

736
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,239
mantra of you know, to get good people to do

737
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,639
bad things, you need religion. And I think that that

738
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,000
is very true, especially in this sense, because you know,

739
00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:50,239
in order to get otherwise good people to agree to

740
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,920
these horrible actions that are undertaken by God in the Bible,

741
00:38:55,639 --> 00:38:58,639
I think that you need some kind of like brainwashing

742
00:38:58,639 --> 00:39:02,599
effect from religion. I mean, you know, to kind of

743
00:39:02,599 --> 00:39:07,079
steal man. The other side of the argument here, what

744
00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:10,880
they would probably say as far as like the slavery

745
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:15,679
issue goes and everything is essentially God was just regulating

746
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,360
it and they were doing better than the surrounding ancient

747
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:26,480
Near Eastern societies. But there are many aspects to Israelite slavery,

748
00:39:26,559 --> 00:39:29,039
like the channel slavery that they employed that was actually

749
00:39:29,079 --> 00:39:30,639
worse than the surrounding area.

750
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 4: I mean, they were.

751
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 3: Particularly harsh to their indentured slaves because like the indentured slaves,

752
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,920
they could only be freed every.

753
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,039
Speaker 4: Like seven years.

754
00:39:41,039 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 3: I believe it is that you believe here whereas in

755
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,599
the surrounding ancient Near East, they were freed every three years,

756
00:39:48,639 --> 00:39:53,159
and so you know, and then there's the whole you know,

757
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,440
pretty much status quo with the being able to beat

758
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,079
your slaves within an inch of their life and all

759
00:39:59,119 --> 00:40:02,400
that kind of stuff. In the ancient Neurias Durn culture

760
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:07,519
around the Israelites, you had slaves that also had rights

761
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,559
and even in many respects more rights than the Israelite

762
00:40:11,679 --> 00:40:15,119
chattel slaves had. And so if they try to come

763
00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:18,000
at you with this whole idea that well, God was

764
00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:21,119
just trying to progressively get them to a better solution

765
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,000
or something like that, I feel like, you know, the

766
00:40:24,039 --> 00:40:27,119
response there to push back on somebody with is that,

767
00:40:27,679 --> 00:40:32,119
why did an omni supposed, omni benevolent God and all

768
00:40:32,199 --> 00:40:37,039
good God ever allow slavery, whether it was to progressively

769
00:40:37,119 --> 00:40:39,280
get them there or not. I don't think that that

770
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:43,159
really matters, considering all of the minute things that God

771
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,800
requires of the Israelites and definitely expects them to follow.

772
00:40:47,199 --> 00:40:49,480
I mean right down too. And this is a real

773
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:54,800
reference that you can use in the Bible. God expects

774
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,519
a certain kind of fire to be used to light

775
00:40:57,599 --> 00:41:00,559
the incense in his temple, and there were there two

776
00:41:00,599 --> 00:41:04,400
priests aaron sons that didn't use the right fire to

777
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:10,519
light his incense, and so God spontaneously combusted them. And

778
00:41:10,679 --> 00:41:14,599
so with the fact that God definitely requires these laws

779
00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:17,679
to be followed, these commandments to be followed, he could

780
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,840
easily issue a commandment like, hey, people aren't chattel. Don't

781
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:26,960
treat fellow human beings as chattel slaves. He could have

782
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,960
said that, but he didn't. Instead, he said, you may

783
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,719
buy your slaves from the nations around you, and they

784
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,000
may be your property, and you may bequeath them to

785
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:40,000
your children. So it's a lifelong service of slavery that

786
00:41:40,079 --> 00:41:44,360
they cannot escape. And so that's what God directly says

787
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,639
in the book. He could have said otherwise and he

788
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,360
chose not to. There's a meme out there I post

789
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,000
sometimes that says God could have banned slavery, but he

790
00:41:53,199 --> 00:41:56,320
banned shrimp instead, And that is the real.

791
00:41:58,039 --> 00:41:58,519
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

792
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, and he could say something right now, but he

793
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,679
chooses to, you know, just be the deadbeat deity or whatever.

794
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:11,039
Speaker 1: Yeah, he tends he's the world champion at Hide and Seek.

795
00:42:11,079 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 2: It's a lot of people try to say.

796
00:42:12,960 --> 00:42:17,599
Speaker 1: His appearances have a are strongly correlated in an inverse

797
00:42:17,639 --> 00:42:20,199
relationship with the rise of cameras. All of a sudden,

798
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,760
the miracles and the talking to God and the God

799
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,559
visiting people goes way down as soon as we have

800
00:42:26,039 --> 00:42:29,199
the our ability to record reality. So that's also an

801
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,559
interesting thing. So, Julie, thank you very much for your call.

802
00:42:31,599 --> 00:42:34,360
It's been a long time here. I hope we got

803
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:39,159
your questions answered. Do you have anything else before we

804
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:39,960
wrap it up?

805
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 6: No, but thank you very much. It was good to

806
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,599
discuss these things. So they've been on.

807
00:42:45,519 --> 00:42:49,679
Speaker 1: My mind absolutely, Yeah, and I would encourage you to,

808
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,599
you know, try if you're interested, to have those good

809
00:42:51,639 --> 00:42:55,159
faith questions with somebody, because you'll never know. If you say, hey,

810
00:42:55,199 --> 00:42:58,840
could you explain me this passage? That passage you'll probably

811
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,159
get back with their pastors tells them. But sometimes you'll

812
00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:03,760
get a wow, I didn't know about that. So maybe

813
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,719
maybe try one more volley with that person and see

814
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,519
what they say about some of those passages you cited,

815
00:43:09,639 --> 00:43:12,480
and if you find any interesting results, give us a

816
00:43:12,519 --> 00:43:12,920
call back.

817
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 6: Okay, thanks to that.

818
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 1: Thanks by Julie. So that was an interesting call. It

819
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,239
started out as sort of like, hey, let's talk about

820
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:24,960
this slavery thing.

821
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 2: But that whole.

822
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 1: I don't have to follow the law. Even this small

823
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,440
little no signs on the highway things sort of a

824
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,920
bigger concern for me. I don't know about you, where

825
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:39,599
there's this tendency in the Christian nationalist movement, especially to

826
00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:44,800
say God is on our side, therefore it's okay if

827
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,519
our leaders are breaking laws, including the First Amendment, but

828
00:43:48,559 --> 00:43:52,159
even just regular laws, you know, up to and including

829
00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:55,119
corruption and bribery and all of those sorts of things.

830
00:43:56,039 --> 00:43:59,159
To me, that's the worst of all worlds. That's where

831
00:43:59,199 --> 00:44:02,280
you start seeing the thing that we always warn about

832
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,800
on this show, which is the scary part of religion,

833
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,599
is it's probably no big deal if you have these

834
00:44:06,639 --> 00:44:09,800
quirky beliefs, but as soon as you think that you

835
00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:14,760
know what this God wants, all of a sudden, nothing

836
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,679
will stop you. And that's to me, is scary. Are

837
00:44:17,679 --> 00:44:20,480
you seeing those effects in your local area? I know

838
00:44:20,519 --> 00:44:22,320
I'm seeing it at a national level and at my

839
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,159
local area. And I'm not even in the South.

840
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:24,480
Speaker 2: Really.

841
00:44:24,639 --> 00:44:26,599
Speaker 1: I'm in Maryland, which is technically in the South, but

842
00:44:26,679 --> 00:44:27,760
it's not Southern.

843
00:44:28,599 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, And speaking as carefully as I can, it kind

844
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:37,519
of seems like to plenty of people in my state,

845
00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:44,320
in particular, election laws do not matter, and especially eligibility laws.

846
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,920
I think that we need to be more focused on

847
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,119
following the law. But I think that it's kind of

848
00:44:51,119 --> 00:44:53,800
funny that people that are out there yelling about law

849
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:56,000
and order, law and order are the first ones to

850
00:44:56,079 --> 00:44:59,960
seem to want to bend or break the laws that seem.

851
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,119
Speaker 1: To you know, their needs laws for thee and not

852
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,599
for me. Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

853
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,599
Speaker 3: Well, I was just gonna ask, are you ready for

854
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,480
our TikTok guests?

855
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,119
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Please do bring them up? Okay.

856
00:45:14,199 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 1: I know that you've got a connection to the TikTok things,

857
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,960
so I'm glad for you to to bring them on stage.

858
00:45:19,199 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 2: Yep.

859
00:45:19,599 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 4: Okay.

860
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,639
Speaker 3: So we got Stumpy Nubs that's requesting up. Let's see

861
00:45:23,639 --> 00:45:28,039
if Stumpy can get in here. He's loading in right now.

862
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,119
Hi there, Stumpy, are you over eighteen?

863
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:32,079
Speaker 8: Yeah?

864
00:45:32,119 --> 00:45:34,119
Speaker 2: I'm definitely over eighteen. Cool.

865
00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 4: Cool, and then Reber pronouns.

866
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: I'm not sure he heard us. There you go?

867
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, cool, Stumping Nubs? What's up?

868
00:45:44,679 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 3: What would you like to talk about today? There's Stumpy?

869
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 2: Well, I think we have some delay on Stumpy's part.

870
00:45:54,559 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, Stumpy I don't know if you can either get

871
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,519
on Wi Fi or get off Wi Fi.

872
00:46:02,079 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 4: Hold on, I think we might hear something.

873
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,119
Speaker 2: Okay, I need the juice.

874
00:46:08,599 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: Why why don't you just give us what you'd like

875
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:21,760
to talk about? We can get going on that. We

876
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:29,400
can't hear you, ump, no comperience. I don't know if

877
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:31,400
we had any prompt or anything like that, but we

878
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:33,960
can't hear you here. Maybe if we can hear you now,

879
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:34,840
got you now?

880
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:37,760
Speaker 2: All right? Perfect? Perfect? All right?

881
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:42,599
Speaker 7: So in Mark fourteen fifty one and fifty two it

882
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,920
talks about in the Greek it talks about a nianiskoi,

883
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,360
which is translated to a small slave child, And that's

884
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,440
in the story where Jesus is arrested and the small

885
00:46:55,519 --> 00:47:00,159
slave child is with Jesus. So Jesus had a small

886
00:47:00,039 --> 00:47:02,719
a slave child with him.

887
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Mark fourteen fifty one and fifty two it

888
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,119
says one of his followers was a young man who

889
00:47:09,159 --> 00:47:12,159
was wearing only a linen garment. They seized hold of him,

890
00:47:12,199 --> 00:47:14,639
but he ran off naked, leaving the garment behind.

891
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's a very interesting that's an IV.

892
00:47:18,519 --> 00:47:22,039
Speaker 1: Are you using a particular are you losing a particular? Translation,

893
00:47:22,079 --> 00:47:24,800
because yeah, John, just read from NIV. Are you reading

894
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:25,800
a different translation?

895
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,039
Speaker 2: I'm going back to the original Greek where you have

896
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:31,800
do you I understand?

897
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:34,159
Speaker 1: But my question is do you have a big bolical

898
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:39,079
translation that we can look at that translates from the

899
00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:41,039
Greek into slave.

900
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,599
Speaker 4: Uh? Yeah, well, I'm I'm looking it up right now.

901
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 2: I am.

902
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 7: If you look up the word nia niskoi, you would

903
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,000
and it can't really be from a Biblical point of view,

904
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,239
because Biblical would be kind of biased.

905
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,639
Speaker 2: Towards, you know, Jesus being a great guy.

906
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:01,119
Speaker 1: And there are a lot a lot of the Biblical

907
00:48:01,159 --> 00:48:04,360
translations that are not biased to be Jesus being a

908
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,440
good guy. A lot of the literal, like the literal

909
00:48:06,559 --> 00:48:08,719
translation Bible is fairly neutral.

910
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm not I'm not disputing you.

911
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:13,280
Speaker 1: I just trying to pull it up on my screen

912
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,280
so I can confirm what you're telling me.

913
00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:19,599
Speaker 7: So if I was, I was using a Greek lexicon

914
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:20,920
when I was looking into it.

915
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:21,880
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

916
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 7: So I mean I was using a couple of different

917
00:48:25,519 --> 00:48:27,679
you know. I mean, obviously I was googling it and

918
00:48:27,679 --> 00:48:30,159
then looking at the sources that were coming up, making

919
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,679
sure they were good sources, so that's not just Google worship.

920
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, well so, so what I'm reading here is the naniscos.

921
00:48:41,639 --> 00:48:42,159
Is that what you.

922
00:48:42,159 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 2: Said, niskoi.

923
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,039
Speaker 7: There's a couple of different pronunciations, whether they're boys or girls,

924
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:54,719
but they're they're Yeah, it's it's an interesting category of

925
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:55,920
young men and women.

926
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,199
Speaker 3: Well yeah, well, I mean it says a young man youth,

927
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,440
you of a young attendant or servant, and servants in

928
00:49:03,519 --> 00:49:08,760
this respect can be a bit, you know, on the

929
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:13,039
slave side, although I will say that Greek does have

930
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:18,119
a specific word doulos for slave that's.

931
00:49:18,039 --> 00:49:22,519
Speaker 1: Used regardless of the hold on a second, regardless of

932
00:49:22,519 --> 00:49:26,119
the great translation here. Just in my quick assessment using

933
00:49:26,199 --> 00:49:31,360
some AI and some Google and looking at what the

934
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,119
academics are saying, the general consensus here is that this

935
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,239
was a bystander, whether it's a slave or not, That

936
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:42,400
this was not there's no indication of ownership by Jesus

937
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,800
of this person. It was just a bystander that this

938
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:49,280
happened to. Do you have any sort of response to that?

939
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 2: Is that, are you familiar with the Bacchic rituals or the.

940
00:49:55,679 --> 00:49:58,679
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm asking, I'm asking in the text that

941
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,599
we have evidence I'm asking.

942
00:50:00,639 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 2: I'm talking about.

943
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,159
Speaker 1: Understood, I'm asking in the text that we have, is

944
00:50:05,159 --> 00:50:08,239
there anything that says This is a simple question. I'm

945
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:09,760
not trying to trap you or anything. I just want

946
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,360
to start to get you, okay. So is there anything

947
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,559
in the text that says Jesus owned a slave?

948
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:20,599
Speaker 7: Not directly, it is where I'm getting it is when

949
00:50:20,639 --> 00:50:25,000
you look up the worship of Dionysus, it has all

950
00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:31,000
the participants in that scripture, specifically for a particular worship

951
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,559
that includes Ananiskoi. There's a reason that he was wearing

952
00:50:34,639 --> 00:50:39,880
a syndon. The syndon is particularly used with Dionysus worship.

953
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:46,119
So and it's it's a process that they go through.

954
00:50:46,159 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 2: It's a ritual.

955
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 4: I get that.

956
00:50:48,679 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 3: But what I'm telling you right now is that throughout

957
00:50:51,519 --> 00:50:55,519
the Gospels and Acts this is used to denote age

958
00:50:56,079 --> 00:50:56,480
and not.

959
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,559
Speaker 4: Like you know the fact that the.

960
00:51:02,519 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 7: Yes, I understand that it is. It denotes age, but

961
00:51:05,519 --> 00:51:11,920
it also indicates the status because he's being referred to

962
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,280
out of all of the people. And if you look

963
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:20,519
at that scripture, right before he Jesus moves away from everybody,

964
00:51:20,559 --> 00:51:24,519
he goes out alone into the garden to pray. But

965
00:51:24,639 --> 00:51:29,360
all of a sudden there's this young child in like

966
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:34,280
a sheer cloth, you know, like out of nowhere. So

967
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,239
does Jesus not realize that he has this small boy

968
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:40,880
that's coming walking in behind him, you know?

969
00:51:41,039 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 2: Or is he an attendant?

970
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,039
Speaker 7: If he's an attendant, then I would it would infer

971
00:51:45,159 --> 00:51:48,119
of slavery and or more.

972
00:51:49,199 --> 00:51:52,039
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not exactly sure about the slavery aspect

973
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:54,599
of it, because it just seems to be like it

974
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,760
because it can be used for servants, right, which which

975
00:51:58,880 --> 00:51:59,840
I agree.

976
00:51:59,679 --> 00:52:01,119
Speaker 4: Can be conflated with a slave.

977
00:52:01,639 --> 00:52:04,639
Speaker 3: But it seems to be more indicative of the age

978
00:52:04,679 --> 00:52:06,880
of the person rather than their position.

979
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,599
Speaker 2: And I agree with you, I do not disagree with that,

980
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:12,960
And I would.

981
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 7: Say a combination of both would give you where I'm

982
00:52:16,039 --> 00:52:19,199
getting at. You know, it indicates the age that it

983
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,519
is a young man, and then also he is in

984
00:52:23,599 --> 00:52:26,719
service to this this Jesus character.

985
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,119
Speaker 1: Nothing in the tip I've just read that whole chapter

986
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:34,000
from one through the end, Nothing in there indicates that

987
00:52:34,079 --> 00:52:36,760
he is a servant to Jesus, that he's owned by Jesus.

988
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:42,119
It's literally Jesus goes away, Jesus comes back. Judas is

989
00:52:42,159 --> 00:52:45,039
talking about what we need to do. A crowd shows up,

990
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,880
they arrest Jesus and oh, by away there was a

991
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:53,400
guy that ran away with naked. One could call it

992
00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:57,599
a narrative flourish to here's something that happens in the

993
00:52:57,639 --> 00:53:00,000
scripture all the time. I forget what the technical try

994
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:04,519
irm is called is used in these sorts of scriptures.

995
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 2: But it is a flourish. It is a.

996
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:11,760
Speaker 1: Detail that's added to imply that there was some eyewitness account,

997
00:53:12,199 --> 00:53:15,480
the argument being wow, they went out of their way

998
00:53:15,519 --> 00:53:18,760
to say that there was this guy, and wow, he

999
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,960
had his clothes ripped off of him, his garment ripped

1000
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:22,760
off him, and had to run away naked. Who else

1001
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:25,519
but an eyewitness would say that. But nothing in what

1002
00:53:25,599 --> 00:53:27,800
I just read, and granted I'm only reading an IV

1003
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,800
right now because it's fairly easy to go, but nothing

1004
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:35,760
in here says in anywhere he even implies Jesus had

1005
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,800
an owner slave relationship.

1006
00:53:38,119 --> 00:53:38,760
Speaker 2: With this boy.

1007
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:42,599
Speaker 1: It really reads like a flourish that's just added to

1008
00:53:42,639 --> 00:53:44,000
try to establish like it was.

1009
00:53:46,039 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 2: A legit eyewitness.

1010
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:49,599
Speaker 1: The same way that George Lucas went back to the

1011
00:53:49,599 --> 00:53:52,079
original Star Wars and added a bunch of robots around

1012
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:55,119
and make it feel more realistic. That's what this line

1013
00:53:55,159 --> 00:53:58,079
seems to be. My second point before getting back to

1014
00:53:58,119 --> 00:54:01,880
you is if there was and this is this is

1015
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,840
not I'm not saying that this is my argument. What

1016
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,760
I'm saying is, this is a question for you, because

1017
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:12,960
it sums up as I think I would have heard

1018
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,039
it if there was serious academic discussion about whether or

1019
00:54:16,079 --> 00:54:20,039
not Jesus was a slaveholder. So when I look at this,

1020
00:54:20,119 --> 00:54:22,599
I see it looks like one of those punch up

1021
00:54:22,599 --> 00:54:26,320
lines from a script, making it look more realistic, almost comedy.

1022
00:54:27,519 --> 00:54:30,880
I don't see any discussion in this chapter about ownership,

1023
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,760
and I think I would have heard of it if

1024
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,239
there was any real evidence that there was an intent

1025
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,960
to portray Jesus as a slaveholder, because that'd be a

1026
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,519
great argument that we would use to say, hey, this

1027
00:54:41,599 --> 00:54:43,920
story is not good. So how would you respond to

1028
00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:45,159
all of those observations.

1029
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:50,559
Speaker 7: So I would definitely say that the reference come.

1030
00:54:51,199 --> 00:54:53,360
Speaker 1: You've cut off. I don't know if you and just contemper,

1031
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,679
could you repeat yourself this? You cut off right in

1032
00:54:55,679 --> 00:54:57,559
the middle of that. Go ahead, did you hear me?

1033
00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,199
Speaker 2: Now? We can hear you now, so go ahead.

1034
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 7: So I would say it definitely refers. It refers to

1035
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:08,400
the worship of Dionysus. I think that that's really where

1036
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:08,920
I'm getting at.

1037
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 2: I'm looking at it across.

1038
00:55:10,199 --> 00:55:13,800
Speaker 7: It does not say it directly in the scripture, I

1039
00:55:14,199 --> 00:55:15,519
can see one hundred percent of that.

1040
00:55:16,519 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 2: However, it is implied.

1041
00:55:19,039 --> 00:55:22,559
Speaker 7: Through I mean, like you have the Alabaster with Mary

1042
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:27,199
earlier in the Scripture of fourteen, where that is clearly

1043
00:55:28,039 --> 00:55:34,719
a Dionysus worship or excuse me, ah, it's clearly worship

1044
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,239
of another God.

1045
00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:43,199
Speaker 3: Well, so, so there's there's there's a difference here in exo.

1046
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 4: Jesus and is of Jesus.

1047
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:45,679
Speaker 3: And I feel like you're doing a bit of is

1048
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:48,440
of Jesus here with your connection to Dionysus. And I

1049
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:51,960
mean even in the Gospel of John where Jesus turns

1050
00:55:52,039 --> 00:55:55,599
water into wine, you could see like there have been people,

1051
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,239
even scholars, that have tried to make a connection to Dionysus,

1052
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,800
but even then that it's a weak connection. There's nothing

1053
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,880
that directly connects it. There's just vague sort of similarities

1054
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:08,159
in there. And I think that maybe what you might

1055
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:12,119
be seeing, more so than a direct connection to Dionysus,

1056
00:56:12,199 --> 00:56:16,360
might be the underlying mystery cult aspect to Christianity, because

1057
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:22,159
Christianity was a mystery cult Dionysus, the Dionysus cult was

1058
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,519
also a mystery cult. But I would I would you

1059
00:56:25,559 --> 00:56:29,400
would probably be safer saying that there were that this

1060
00:56:29,559 --> 00:56:34,800
is evidence of mystery cult origins as opposed to a

1061
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,000
direct connection to Dionysus, because I think that what you're

1062
00:56:38,039 --> 00:56:40,280
going to end up with in any kind of discussion

1063
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,440
you have with anybody is that they're going to be like, no,

1064
00:56:42,599 --> 00:56:45,519
there's no connection to Dionysus here. But it would be

1065
00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:48,239
harder for them to be like, ah, there's no connection

1066
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,199
to mystery cults, because mystery cults in general would would

1067
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,599
have operated in similar ways. And I think that this

1068
00:56:54,639 --> 00:56:58,280
would be one of those scenes that you could potentially say, like, well,

1069
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,239
this is the same thing that's done in the mystery culs.

1070
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:05,360
Would be part of a culmination of arguments that you

1071
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:08,159
could use to establish Christianity as a mystery cult rather

1072
00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:11,239
than any kind of direct influence from any one mystery cult.

1073
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,159
Speaker 4: Does that make sense right?

1074
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 7: And I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, because

1075
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,159
obviously Jesus isn't Dionysus.

1076
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 2: You know, like we can clearly see that. However, where

1077
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:23,679
I'm getting.

1078
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:28,719
Speaker 7: At is you have with the story of Mary, specifically

1079
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,960
she's got the alabaster. Well, if you look at the

1080
00:57:32,519 --> 00:57:36,559
back eye play, you see what that's used for, and

1081
00:57:36,599 --> 00:57:38,079
you see what it actually is.

1082
00:57:38,159 --> 00:57:40,519
Speaker 2: It's not what the church is translated into.

1083
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:43,679
Speaker 7: It's something totally different, and it kind of makes the

1084
00:57:43,719 --> 00:57:47,880
story like wait a second, that that actually makes that

1085
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:49,239
shit where work?

1086
00:57:50,159 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: You know, like in all fairness, yeah, no, I get

1087
00:57:53,519 --> 00:57:56,239
where you're coming from. I guess my question would be,

1088
00:57:57,039 --> 00:58:01,039
what would people do with this information. Let's assume there's

1089
00:58:01,079 --> 00:58:07,159
this very loose information, you know, uh, you could you

1090
00:58:07,199 --> 00:58:11,519
could take this to say, assuming customs of the time

1091
00:58:11,559 --> 00:58:14,760
were followed, and assuming this and assuming that this implies

1092
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,360
that Jesus might have owned a slave. Right, So it's

1093
00:58:18,679 --> 00:58:24,280
a lot of assumings and you know evidence that's not

1094
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,719
direct textual support. Right, So that's on one hand, this

1095
00:58:28,159 --> 00:58:31,519
but even if even if we could say that, let

1096
00:58:31,559 --> 00:58:33,239
me get to my sort of question here, even if

1097
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,599
it say that that's okay, even if we could say that, yeah, no, no,

1098
00:58:37,639 --> 00:58:39,519
it really was the tradition of time and we had

1099
00:58:39,599 --> 00:58:41,480
time to do this on the show and not people

1100
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,599
would say, so what, Jesus spent a lot of time

1101
00:58:44,599 --> 00:58:47,920
with slaves, Jesus spent times with prostitutes. This looks to

1102
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,440
me like it's almost like a rom com where somebody's

1103
00:58:50,599 --> 00:58:53,199
going out the window naked, or you know whatever. It's

1104
00:58:53,239 --> 00:58:57,079
a it's a Keystone Cops moment or whatever. But even

1105
00:58:57,119 --> 00:58:59,760
if you could convince people that oh, yeah, that might

1106
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:02,519
have been and what was implied by somebody at some

1107
00:59:02,679 --> 00:59:04,960
point in the history of writing all of this stuff down,

1108
00:59:05,559 --> 00:59:08,719
So what, like, is anybody going to change their belief

1109
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:13,039
based on the possibility that maybe this might be somehow

1110
00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,400
implied by the author. And I'm not saying attacking your idea.

1111
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,239
I'm just saying, like it it looks like it's not

1112
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:19,239
that big of a deal.

1113
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 2: Go ahead.

1114
00:59:20,679 --> 00:59:23,599
Speaker 7: This is part of a bigger, bigger understanding that I

1115
00:59:23,719 --> 00:59:27,840
have gotten, and most of it originally it started with

1116
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:33,079
The inspiration was doctor Amen Hillman, and I work with herbs,

1117
00:59:33,559 --> 00:59:37,679
and he has a book about ancient herbs, okay, and

1118
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,079
what they were used for ancient ancient pharmacology.

1119
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,199
Speaker 3: Am and Hillman's a piece of ship. By the way,

1120
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:46,920
I don't know, I don't know if you know that

1121
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,719
but he is wanted to go into that, John, Huh,

1122
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:54,760
you'd care to elaborate, Well, yeah, I mean, Ammin Hillman's

1123
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:59,280
been been pushing a whole bunch of conspiratorials stuff on

1124
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:04,519
New Testament, new Testament deal, like New Testament ideas and

1125
01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:09,519
everything like that, and he's just been a really bad influence,

1126
01:00:09,719 --> 01:00:14,159
uh in the community in general. And so yeah, I

1127
01:00:14,239 --> 01:00:16,760
just I really don't I'm sorry, I really don't like

1128
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,400
Almond Hillman. He's uh, I think that he's a really

1129
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:25,960
bad influence on people. So through the spreading of conspiracy theories.

1130
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:31,519
Speaker 7: Well if if these I like, I'm not necessarily disagreeing

1131
01:00:31,599 --> 01:00:33,880
or agreeing, like it's just the information source.

1132
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,679
Speaker 2: Like I don't know the man personally, you know, Like,

1133
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:37,840
well he's not right.

1134
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:43,559
Speaker 3: I wouldn't, I wouldn't necessarily fall into a genetic fallacy

1135
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,679
other than the fact that he has a proven track

1136
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:51,880
record of basically preaching crazy shit. And so I just

1137
01:00:52,039 --> 01:00:54,480
anything that you get from Emmin Hillman is just not

1138
01:00:54,639 --> 01:00:58,639
going to be a good source of information just because

1139
01:00:58,679 --> 01:00:59,920
of the fact that he is.

1140
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 4: He is that way.

1141
01:01:02,079 --> 01:01:04,880
Speaker 7: Well, I don't just listen to Amen Hillman, Like, I'm

1142
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:09,559
not I'm not part of the group, the Satanic Congregation

1143
01:01:09,679 --> 01:01:13,199
as it may be. What I am, though, is I

1144
01:01:13,239 --> 01:01:16,960
am one that takes something from a source and I

1145
01:01:17,079 --> 01:01:22,079
backcheck it and I have found evidence that there's Honestly,

1146
01:01:22,199 --> 01:01:25,840
there's some that I haven't done, but there's some that

1147
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,800
I have that it. Honestly, I don't see a problem

1148
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:31,760
with what his interpretation is on some of it, like

1149
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:34,840
it's there, and you know, with with.

1150
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 3: If the Dionysus thing is what you're saying is there

1151
01:01:40,039 --> 01:01:42,280
that it's not there and it's a demonstration of how

1152
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:43,039
he's doing Dan.

1153
01:01:43,199 --> 01:01:46,199
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that specifically. I'm saying like this, like

1154
01:01:46,199 --> 01:01:47,840
I'm very master specifically.

1155
01:01:48,079 --> 01:01:50,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, but is this the same guy I think I'm

1156
01:01:50,119 --> 01:01:52,360
remembering who this is now? This is the same guy

1157
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,760
that said the subtuagent is originally written in Greek and

1158
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:57,760
that the Hubrew language didn't even exist.

1159
01:01:58,320 --> 01:01:59,519
Speaker 2: Is that the same guy not.

1160
01:01:59,519 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 7: The only guy that says that there's a couple of

1161
01:02:01,480 --> 01:02:02,760
people that.

1162
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,960
Speaker 1: Okay, we're dealing with. Okay, yeah, I think now I

1163
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:08,280
know who you're talking about, so let's leave him out

1164
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:12,840
of it. I don't necessarily he lends any sort of expertise,

1165
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,280
he claims if I recall correctly, he claims to be

1166
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:18,400
an expert in Greek, and then he starts saying stuff

1167
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:23,000
like the Hebrew language didn't exist, which seems like I've

1168
01:02:23,119 --> 01:02:26,760
not read any academic source that agrees with that. Now,

1169
01:02:27,199 --> 01:02:30,199
does that mean he's necessarily wrong, No, but I think

1170
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:32,639
it's reasonable for me to reject his claims until I'm

1171
01:02:32,639 --> 01:02:35,760
presented with a little more rigorous study.

1172
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:38,719
Speaker 2: So, but getting back to.

1173
01:02:38,679 --> 01:02:42,119
Speaker 1: My point, right, My point was, let's grant a few

1174
01:02:42,159 --> 01:02:49,159
things that this story follows some pattern that that mimics

1175
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,679
or apes some traditions at the time that had to

1176
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:54,199
do with slave ownership.

1177
01:02:54,760 --> 01:03:04,039
Speaker 2: So what well, question like, what so? But you're nowhere

1178
01:03:04,079 --> 01:03:04,760
close to that.

1179
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,239
Speaker 1: The most, like, if I'm being generous, the most I

1180
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:12,639
could give you would say, Okay, so this story has

1181
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:19,679
elements that indicate that the author was aware of certain traditions, rights, rituals,

1182
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:23,320
things like that. Right, And I'm going to ignore everything

1183
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:25,639
I've read when I was googling this about you know

1184
01:03:25,679 --> 01:03:27,519
what the at academics. I'm going to ignore all of

1185
01:03:27,599 --> 01:03:31,119
that and grant that, Yeah, there's elements that indicate that

1186
01:03:31,199 --> 01:03:34,159
this person might have been a slave and it might

1187
01:03:34,199 --> 01:03:37,719
be related to this ritual or right thing. It doesn't

1188
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:42,239
get you anywhere close to Jesus had an ownership relationship

1189
01:03:42,239 --> 01:03:42,880
with this person.

1190
01:03:43,159 --> 01:03:44,079
Speaker 2: It just doesn't.

1191
01:03:44,559 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 1: And I don't think anybody that cares about whether or

1192
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:49,920
not the Bible is true is going to hinge any

1193
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:54,519
decision based on this sort of you know, chain of

1194
01:03:54,559 --> 01:03:57,360
what ifs that leads you to the possibility that there's

1195
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:00,960
a chance that this might have been the case. I agree, Like,

1196
01:04:01,039 --> 01:04:03,719
if we had more information, that would be stunning. Like

1197
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:07,360
if we've unearthed some trove of documents that are authenticated

1198
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:11,119
as coming from the same pen as the earliest examples

1199
01:04:11,119 --> 01:04:13,679
we have of the Gospel, than those documents say Jesus

1200
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:17,719
owned slaves, that would change everything, right, that would be amazing.

1201
01:04:18,199 --> 01:04:20,039
But we don't have We're not nowhere close to that,

1202
01:04:20,079 --> 01:04:21,840
even if we give you all the toys to play with.

1203
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:22,639
Speaker 2: That's my point.

1204
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 9: Do you see that I get where you're coming from,

1205
01:04:26,039 --> 01:04:29,119
and I don't necessarily I would have to look into

1206
01:04:29,199 --> 01:04:33,320
it more and really process before I give a full assessment,

1207
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,719
because I mean, this is just a conversation on TikTok,

1208
01:04:37,159 --> 01:04:37,639
you know, yeh.

1209
01:04:37,599 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, No, I support you. I would

1210
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,360
My next statement was going to be. Go out and

1211
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,639
start writing on it. Go out and do the research

1212
01:04:46,719 --> 01:04:50,039
and write down and be honest with yourself. What is

1213
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,280
the evidence I have, What are the logical steps to

1214
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:56,880
get from what the words are in the scripts? Write

1215
01:04:56,920 --> 01:04:59,880
out your argument to the conclusion you're like, you'd like

1216
01:05:00,039 --> 01:05:02,440
to propose and be honest about what the best conclusion

1217
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,239
can be that is supported by the evidence. And if

1218
01:05:05,239 --> 01:05:07,280
you get to a point where you can say it's

1219
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:11,639
reasonable to conclude that this this means that Jesus owned

1220
01:05:11,639 --> 01:05:14,639
a slave, then publish it and get it reviewed.

1221
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,280
Speaker 7: Sure, like that would be I get where you're coming from.

1222
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:21,280
I'm more of a fence builder and a guy on

1223
01:05:21,360 --> 01:05:25,079
TikTok than peer reviewed study because I don't know of

1224
01:05:25,119 --> 01:05:27,880
too many peers of mine that would be reading this,

1225
01:05:28,039 --> 01:05:29,800
But I appreciate what you're saying.

1226
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,559
Speaker 1: Well, the peers would be academics who on both sides of.

1227
01:05:34,519 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 7: The fence, right that would yeah, yeah, I'm I'm giving

1228
01:05:38,360 --> 01:05:39,119
here's a hobby.

1229
01:05:39,239 --> 01:05:42,079
Speaker 1: And I've read papers from people who started out as

1230
01:05:42,119 --> 01:05:45,039
fence builders and started out as like any you know,

1231
01:05:45,239 --> 01:05:46,119
any profession.

1232
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 2: Science does not discriminate wholeheartedly.

1233
01:05:50,039 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: There are gates you have to go through obviously, but

1234
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:54,320
if you've got facts on your side, you can make

1235
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:55,880
an argument and make a name for yourself.

1236
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,159
Speaker 2: So I would encourage that. What are your thoughts, John.

1237
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 4: I mean yeah, I would.

1238
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,480
Speaker 3: I would suggest that you do better research, with better,

1239
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:09,920
better sources on it, just because of Amman, you know,

1240
01:06:10,519 --> 01:06:13,320
being conspiratorial in nature and everything like that, and it

1241
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,559
kind of shows with you know, some with a lot

1242
01:06:16,599 --> 01:06:17,840
of the things that he says.

1243
01:06:17,599 --> 01:06:20,000
Speaker 4: About, you know, the Bible and and everything.

1244
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:24,559
Speaker 3: So yeah, definitely look outside of one source or especially

1245
01:06:24,679 --> 01:06:25,679
Crackpont sources.

1246
01:06:25,760 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 4: So definitely do that.

1247
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I agree.

1248
01:06:29,440 --> 01:06:34,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, I definitely understand where you're coming from. I definitely understand.

1249
01:06:34,079 --> 01:06:36,840
And the thing is is, I'm in Hillman is not

1250
01:06:37,039 --> 01:06:41,360
my exclusive source understood. Like I have gone in and

1251
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:45,800
looked through the lexicons myself. So if my research is incorrect,

1252
01:06:46,199 --> 01:06:49,840
it's coming from the lexicons themselves. Like I'm looking up

1253
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,719
the word means boy, and I'm looking at all of

1254
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:55,039
that active.

1255
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:56,079
Speaker 4: The lexicons are not wrong.

1256
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 3: You're just trying to force an understanding that's not in

1257
01:06:59,000 --> 01:06:59,519
the text.

1258
01:07:00,119 --> 01:07:03,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, the classical mistake that atheists make all the time.

1259
01:07:03,559 --> 01:07:07,000
The classic I'm explaining, I'm explaining it to you. The

1260
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,079
classic mistake that atheists and Christians make all the time

1261
01:07:10,639 --> 01:07:13,760
is they go and they don't they don't take they

1262
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,639
don't go to seminary school, they don't go and learn Greek,

1263
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:20,039
they don't go and learn Hebrew. And they take a

1264
01:07:20,119 --> 01:07:23,480
word and they run it through like what do what

1265
01:07:23,599 --> 01:07:24,719
are these translations?

1266
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:25,719
Speaker 2: What are the meanings?

1267
01:07:26,079 --> 01:07:29,760
Speaker 1: And then they take another statement that says, look, this

1268
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:33,880
is the original text for the English translation of this

1269
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:37,880
particular passage, this verse, and it has this word in it.

1270
01:07:38,119 --> 01:07:41,800
Speaker 2: Therefore the meaning must be x right.

1271
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 1: And any academic I know, but I'm telling you this

1272
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:47,639
is the type of mistake. It feels like this is

1273
01:07:47,639 --> 01:07:50,480
the category mistake of saying I don't know as much

1274
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:52,639
as I need to know to actually make this judgment.

1275
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:57,119
And any any academic I've ever read will say things like, well,

1276
01:07:57,159 --> 01:07:59,559
this usually means this, but sometimes it means this, and

1277
01:07:59,599 --> 01:08:02,000
we can't tell because of this blah blah blah blah,

1278
01:08:02,159 --> 01:08:04,480
or it was used this way in all the other

1279
01:08:04,559 --> 01:08:06,559
sections of the document that were written at the same

1280
01:08:06,599 --> 01:08:08,800
time by the same authors, So it's safe to assume

1281
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,760
that this means this, et cetera. That's the level of

1282
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,440
analysis that I think you should get to. So go

1283
01:08:14,519 --> 01:08:17,079
learn your Greek, go learn your Hebrew, and don't trust

1284
01:08:17,159 --> 01:08:21,439
on just translating one or two words or one sentence,

1285
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,199
et cetera, and not know the context of everything, and

1286
01:08:24,199 --> 01:08:25,720
then we could still be wrong, Like I could go

1287
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:27,680
study Greek, learn to all read it, and then not

1288
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:30,159
know my history, which you appear to do. Where you're

1289
01:08:30,159 --> 01:08:32,640
talking about the rights and the rituals that were customed

1290
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:35,000
at the time, So I may mistranslate this based on

1291
01:08:35,119 --> 01:08:40,359
not understanding the customs of the time. So I'm not

1292
01:08:40,399 --> 01:08:43,199
saying you're making that exact mistake. What I'm saying is

1293
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:46,880
it feels like something where we're focusing way in on

1294
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,760
one word and making a whole bunch of conclusions.

1295
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,720
Speaker 7: And see I'm not when I say I'm translating it

1296
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,520
word for word, I'm doing that. I'm doing a variety

1297
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:57,720
of things. The other thing, one of the main things

1298
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:01,560
that I do is look for contemporaries to the writings

1299
01:09:02,159 --> 01:09:04,600
outside of the Bible, so I can see what was

1300
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:09,239
being used contemporary, you know, so the vernaculars and all

1301
01:09:09,359 --> 01:09:12,600
the So I'm not just willing nearly saying oh Almend's

1302
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:13,840
right and fuck it.

1303
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:14,119
Speaker 5: All.

1304
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:18,279
Speaker 2: No, no, no, not by any means, Like I'm not talking.

1305
01:09:18,439 --> 01:09:20,319
I didn't say I didn't use Amend's name in that

1306
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:22,439
whole thing. I just said, no, I understand.

1307
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:25,800
Speaker 1: I was talking about that your category of mistake where

1308
01:09:27,159 --> 01:09:30,560
you know, we we know enough to think we can

1309
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,800
make a conclusion, but we don't really know enough because

1310
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:37,039
we haven't studied it. So, uh, you saying you're going

1311
01:09:37,079 --> 01:09:39,840
to get contemporary sources and all of that sort of stuff,

1312
01:09:40,119 --> 01:09:41,960
that's exactly the type of stuff you should be doing,

1313
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,319
and the stuff that could lead to publishing a paper.

1314
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:48,039
Speaker 2: I don't want to discourage yet. Yeah, like I have.

1315
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 7: I may be a mere fence builder, but my brothers

1316
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,039
and sisters were a little bit smarter than me, got

1317
01:09:54,039 --> 01:09:56,800
a better degree, So like I know how to do

1318
01:09:56,880 --> 01:10:01,119
all that process. You know, not personally, but I have.

1319
01:10:01,479 --> 01:10:04,239
I should say it this way, I have access to

1320
01:10:04,359 --> 01:10:06,760
knowing how to do all of that if I just

1321
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:10,439
didn't never thought about it being a fence builder. You know,

1322
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:12,840
they're like, well you should think about it. Anyways, You

1323
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:15,279
guys have more guests. Thank you for your understanding and

1324
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:17,520
your conversation. You guys have a great day.

1325
01:10:18,039 --> 01:10:20,520
Speaker 1: Thanks you all right, see you stumpy, So John, when

1326
01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:23,560
you keyed in on Amen, hill I couldn't remember Hillman,

1327
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:26,600
I should say, I couldn't remember. And then it hit

1328
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:29,720
me and I remember the article that Richard Carrier wrote

1329
01:10:29,800 --> 01:10:31,560
last year, and I googled it and I found it.

1330
01:10:31,600 --> 01:10:34,079
The title is am and Hillman is not telling you

1331
01:10:34,119 --> 01:10:37,199
the truth. The Gospels do not describe pedophilia, and no

1332
01:10:37,199 --> 01:10:41,640
one was getting high on vaginas.

1333
01:10:42,359 --> 01:10:45,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, he has a lot of quacky things, but like

1334
01:10:46,079 --> 01:10:49,199
the one thing that I would probably hone in on

1335
01:10:49,199 --> 01:10:53,720
on that particular verse and Mark isn't isn't the the

1336
01:10:54,159 --> 01:10:57,960
you know, the whole discrepancy between servants and slaves and

1337
01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:00,960
all that kind of stuff, because that's really a go

1338
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:01,840
in someplace where.

1339
01:11:01,720 --> 01:11:04,319
Speaker 4: The word in the way that its Jews is not going.

1340
01:11:04,399 --> 01:11:05,159
It's just the youth.

1341
01:11:05,560 --> 01:11:08,119
Speaker 3: My question would be, why is Jesus walking around with

1342
01:11:08,159 --> 01:11:11,359
a small naked boy like it Like that's kind of

1343
01:11:11,359 --> 01:11:14,079
a questionable thing. It's like is this a Michael Jackson thing?

1344
01:11:14,279 --> 01:11:16,840
Like who knows what's going on? Like it just I

1345
01:11:17,039 --> 01:11:19,319
feel like it provokes more questions, and it should provoke

1346
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:22,960
more questions than that, like is Jesus.

1347
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 1: Like because it doesn't even say that. It doesn't even

1348
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:26,520
say he was walking around. It doesn't even say he's

1349
01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:28,840
with Jesus. It just says this thing happened and a

1350
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,159
kid ran away. Fact, Like that's it.

1351
01:11:31,800 --> 01:11:32,960
Speaker 4: So I would think that.

1352
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:34,760
Speaker 3: You would be like, Jesus, why is there a naked

1353
01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:36,159
boy running out from behind you?

1354
01:11:36,279 --> 01:11:37,600
Speaker 4: Like, what's going on here, buddy?

1355
01:11:38,079 --> 01:11:41,159
Speaker 1: Like Yeah, if we had that level of detail in

1356
01:11:41,199 --> 01:11:43,319
the Gospels or any of this stuff, it would be

1357
01:11:43,319 --> 01:11:46,479
great because then you could then you could examine the

1358
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:50,720
like the script, the scenes. But it just says everyone

1359
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:53,800
deserted him and fled. A young man wearing nothing but

1360
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:58,239
a linen garment was following Jesus, just a follower. When

1361
01:11:58,279 --> 01:12:01,439
they seized him, he fled naked, leaving his garment behind.

1362
01:12:02,119 --> 01:12:05,520
So it's Keystone cops. I'm a follower of Jesus, I'm

1363
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:08,960
wearing clothes. They come to arrest them, there's a kerfuffle,

1364
01:12:09,319 --> 01:12:11,640
they try to grab the kid, his clothes are ripped off,

1365
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,840
and he runs away. Nothing in that implies sex or

1366
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:17,399
slavery or anything that's like, that's the extent of it.

1367
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:21,239
And if you're going to make the argument that all

1368
01:12:21,279 --> 01:12:24,439
people wearing this particular clothes because he used this particular

1369
01:12:24,439 --> 01:12:27,359
word were slaves, then you still have work to go

1370
01:12:27,399 --> 01:12:30,439
to say and he was Jesus's slave, because there's nothing

1371
01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:31,640
there either. Yeah.

1372
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:35,039
Speaker 3: And then after you ask Jesus, you know that, it's like, hey,

1373
01:12:35,039 --> 01:12:36,520
why is that kid running away from you?

1374
01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:39,520
Speaker 4: He's like, he's not doing anything wrong.

1375
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was thinking.

1376
01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 1: I was thinking about the legal world, where it's like,

1377
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:48,119
you know, if I'm going to accept something like Jesus

1378
01:12:48,159 --> 01:12:50,960
was a slaveholder, it's got to pass some level of trial,

1379
01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:53,600
because that trial it would be like, is Jesus known

1380
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:54,840
for hanging out with prostitutes?

1381
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:57,640
Speaker 2: Yes? Is Jesus known for hanging out with slaves? Yes?

1382
01:12:58,000 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 1: Is there anything in here that says he was doing anything?

1383
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:02,880
Is there anything anywhere else in the Gospels.

1384
01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:03,880
Speaker 2: That talks about Jesus owning slaves?

1385
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:04,039
Speaker 5: No?

1386
01:13:04,359 --> 01:13:06,520
Speaker 1: Is you know, is there anything that says anybody that's

1387
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,279
wearing this document is always a slave and belongs to

1388
01:13:09,319 --> 01:13:11,880
the nearest fictional character in their vicinity.

1389
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:14,359
Speaker 2: No, Like, there's nothing here.

1390
01:13:14,439 --> 01:13:18,680
Speaker 1: So I get it's interesting, and as a hobby, go

1391
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:21,800
for it. Go explore this, read up your history, read

1392
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:27,760
multiple sources, learn Greek, learn history, and then decide whether

1393
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:31,359
or not there's it's worth the effort to try to

1394
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:34,760
propose that Jesus owned a slave, because if you could

1395
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:39,000
convince people that this is true, it would actually be

1396
01:13:40,359 --> 01:13:45,560
mind bending for the Christian community. I think, maybe in

1397
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:46,600
a good way for some people.

1398
01:13:48,039 --> 01:13:52,920
Speaker 3: Well, and I mean he was talking about using you know,

1399
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:58,680
looking at the wider ancient context for him, and I mean, yeah, sure,

1400
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:01,279
you could possibly do that, and you might come up

1401
01:14:01,319 --> 01:14:03,800
with some references. But my guess is that that probably

1402
01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:07,279
uses in conjunction with something else in order to indicate

1403
01:14:07,359 --> 01:14:08,319
like a young slave.

1404
01:14:08,680 --> 01:14:08,840
Speaker 7: Right.

1405
01:14:09,239 --> 01:14:12,359
Speaker 3: In other and other things, especially in the Gospels, they

1406
01:14:12,399 --> 01:14:15,000
do have a word that they use for slave, and

1407
01:14:15,039 --> 01:14:19,800
that's dolos. If you look in Luke one eight, Mary

1408
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:23,840
calls herself a slave of God and to indicate that,

1409
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:26,880
you know, she has no choice but to you know,

1410
01:14:27,199 --> 01:14:30,359
allow God to impregnate her, which is a violation in

1411
01:14:30,399 --> 01:14:34,600
and of itself. But so like there is a word

1412
01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:37,159
for it, I would expect this word to be used

1413
01:14:37,159 --> 01:14:39,680
in conjunction with that word in some kind of way

1414
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:42,760
in order to communicate that he was a young slave.

1415
01:14:43,279 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 4: But even then, you know, you would.

1416
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:48,600
Speaker 3: Need to connect Jesus, you know, as being the owner

1417
01:14:48,720 --> 01:14:50,960
of this young slave in much of the same way

1418
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:54,960
that Mary says, I am your slave lord in that

1419
01:14:55,039 --> 01:14:55,560
kind of way.

1420
01:14:55,600 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 4: So, I mean, there's a lot of way.

1421
01:14:57,920 --> 01:14:59,600
Speaker 3: There's a long way that you have to go in

1422
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:03,039
order to make that argument work. I would focus on, like,

1423
01:15:03,159 --> 01:15:05,800
why is there a young naked boy running away from

1424
01:15:05,920 --> 01:15:08,800
you know, when Jesus is getting caught or whatever, Like,

1425
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:11,600
I feel like that's a question that probably needs to

1426
01:15:11,600 --> 01:15:12,600
be answered first.

1427
01:15:13,079 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 1: Oh, I genuinely read it as one of the I

1428
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:17,239
forget what it's called. I wish I knew the name

1429
01:15:17,319 --> 01:15:20,920
of academics on the Christian and non Christian when they

1430
01:15:20,960 --> 01:15:25,239
read the Bible will identify little phrases and scenes that

1431
01:15:25,319 --> 01:15:28,840
they say, this feels like we believe this was put

1432
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:33,359
in here to it's fictional. It's a touch to try

1433
01:15:33,359 --> 01:15:36,000
to imply that this is from an eyewitness, Like if

1434
01:15:36,039 --> 01:15:38,039
it wasn't for him an eyewitness, you wouldn't have this

1435
01:15:38,159 --> 01:15:40,399
level of detail. Oh remember that guy that where the

1436
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:42,239
cops came and grabbed his clothes and ripped him off

1437
01:15:42,279 --> 01:15:45,000
and he ran away naked. That seems like an eyewitness detail,

1438
01:15:45,039 --> 01:15:47,560
but it's not. Like so it really feels like that.

1439
01:15:48,159 --> 01:15:50,720
Let's change it from a slave to a prostitute, right,

1440
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:53,159
because Jesus ministry to protutes all the time, and we

1441
01:15:53,239 --> 01:15:55,760
have the cops to show up, rip the clothes off

1442
01:15:55,800 --> 01:16:00,199
the girl, she runs away and cut to Jesus.

1443
01:16:00,439 --> 01:16:00,560
Speaker 7: Right.

1444
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:04,319
Speaker 1: You know that's that's the implication, But you just don't

1445
01:16:04,359 --> 01:16:06,720
there's no there's nothing there yet, Like there's a lot

1446
01:16:06,760 --> 01:16:09,600
of more work to do. And to one more point

1447
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:10,720
I want to make with you, and I think this

1448
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:14,880
is extremely important. The level of skepticism that you were

1449
01:16:14,920 --> 01:16:19,439
showing that I thoroughly encourage, I think should be recognized

1450
01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:23,159
that happens in the atheistic community when we're presented with

1451
01:16:23,199 --> 01:16:25,560
claims that aren't supported by evidence that would actually help

1452
01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:27,439
us if we're true, Like it would help our argument

1453
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:31,680
to say Jesus was a slave owner, Jesus slept with prostitutes,

1454
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:34,279
like all of that stuff would be would be, would

1455
01:16:34,319 --> 01:16:38,319
make it easier to demonstrate that this fictional character is

1456
01:16:38,359 --> 01:16:40,199
not as moral as as you make.

1457
01:16:40,159 --> 01:16:40,560
Speaker 2: Him to be.

1458
01:16:41,159 --> 01:16:45,319
Speaker 1: But if there's no supporting evidence for it, we reject

1459
01:16:45,319 --> 01:16:48,840
it because you haven't convinced us. So do you run

1460
01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:51,239
into that sometimes, John, where people call up with this

1461
01:16:51,319 --> 01:16:54,119
sort of like conspiracy theories about the Bible or something,

1462
01:16:54,279 --> 01:16:56,439
and it would be great, like, hey, this proves that

1463
01:16:56,479 --> 01:17:01,119
God was What was that movie that starts by saying like, hey,

1464
01:17:01,359 --> 01:17:05,840
all the Christianity relates to the signs of the zodiac

1465
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:08,880
and then went on later to talk about nine to eleven.

1466
01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:11,520
It was this big, big film like ten to fifteen

1467
01:17:11,600 --> 01:17:12,000
years ago.

1468
01:17:12,359 --> 01:17:13,359
Speaker 4: Was it Zeitgeist?

1469
01:17:13,479 --> 01:17:15,319
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, so.

1470
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:20,560
Speaker 3: Yeah Zeitgeist is like the bane of everybody's existence, and

1471
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:24,159
primarily because like that's what you know, I guess alerted

1472
01:17:24,239 --> 01:17:27,720
a lot of people to the idea of mythicism, and

1473
01:17:27,800 --> 01:17:30,439
it kind of like, you know, it might have gotten

1474
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:32,920
people started down a path, but it was definitely like

1475
01:17:33,239 --> 01:17:36,680
it is bad, yeah, an obvious bad path the.

1476
01:17:36,640 --> 01:17:38,600
Speaker 4: Way that they go about it in that movie.

1477
01:17:38,680 --> 01:17:44,640
Speaker 3: So but but yeah, I do, I mean sometimes I

1478
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:48,159
do get those, uh, and it's actually spurred in some respects.

1479
01:17:48,199 --> 01:17:51,159
It's spurred on like the the research that I've done

1480
01:17:51,199 --> 01:17:54,560
that I'm actually going to be writing about and hopefully

1481
01:17:54,560 --> 01:17:58,520
trying to get put into journals. You know, like there's

1482
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:03,199
an idea that none of the New Testament documents existed

1483
01:18:03,279 --> 01:18:06,279
before the second century, and that that was all written

1484
01:18:06,319 --> 01:18:13,680
by Marcian or either Marcian Martian school, no Marcian or

1485
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:18,520
a school of Martian Marcian you got me saying it

1486
01:18:19,239 --> 01:18:25,640
Marcian like scholars or not scholars but church leaders or

1487
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:29,399
something like that, you know, authoring them and everything. And uh,

1488
01:18:29,760 --> 01:18:33,239
it's actually spurred my own research into that area, using

1489
01:18:33,279 --> 01:18:37,640
some stylometric tools and everything. So uh but yeah, I

1490
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:40,039
mean that kind of skepticism at least led me down

1491
01:18:40,039 --> 01:18:42,399
that road, being like, I need to be able to

1492
01:18:42,399 --> 01:18:46,239
prove this, like, you know, accurately, and once you actually

1493
01:18:46,279 --> 01:18:49,520
find out that you can't do that, like, I mean,

1494
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:51,920
it's a bit disappointing because it's like, how great of

1495
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,319
an argument would that be, Like Jesus owned a slave,

1496
01:18:55,199 --> 01:18:58,239
especially a little slave boy like that. That seems to

1497
01:18:58,239 --> 01:18:59,960
be something that you would want to bust out. But

1498
01:19:00,159 --> 01:19:04,199
it's like, you know, here's an example of that. Right,

1499
01:19:04,319 --> 01:19:09,640
if you're a Civil War era slave holding Southerner, you

1500
01:19:09,680 --> 01:19:13,159
would be parading that scripture in front of everybody, right,

1501
01:19:13,399 --> 01:19:17,119
you would be saying, look, not only does God say

1502
01:19:17,119 --> 01:19:21,159
in the Old Testament to own slaves, Jesus him self

1503
01:19:21,279 --> 01:19:24,159
owned a slave. If it were that clear, it would

1504
01:19:24,159 --> 01:19:28,800
be front and center in the discussion. During the abolitionist movement.

1505
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:30,800
Speaker 1: Prior to the Civil War, and I've never heard of

1506
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:33,760
it in all the books I've read, so.

1507
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:36,079
Speaker 2: It seems like it's not that clear.

1508
01:19:36,600 --> 01:19:39,640
Speaker 1: It's like it's a big bunch of bunch of jumps,

1509
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:44,680
jumping to conclusions. Okay, So we want to send a

1510
01:19:44,680 --> 01:19:47,279
big thank out, thank you out to the people that

1511
01:19:47,319 --> 01:19:51,079
make this show happen every single week, and that is

1512
01:19:51,199 --> 01:19:51,960
our crew.

1513
01:19:52,279 --> 01:19:53,479
Speaker 2: They put the show together.

1514
01:19:53,880 --> 01:19:58,600
Speaker 1: We have video operators, audio operators, note takers, call screeners.

1515
01:19:58,640 --> 01:20:03,159
There they are chat my iterators, all of them fully clothed,

1516
01:20:03,239 --> 01:20:06,039
not running from the police naked for now that you

1517
01:20:06,039 --> 01:20:10,680
can see on camera. These guys really do an amazing job.

1518
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:14,199
They're the people that really bring this on the air.

1519
01:20:14,279 --> 01:20:17,000
We have multiple shows in a row today, We've got

1520
01:20:17,039 --> 01:20:19,279
crew switching out, we have hosts switching out. It's a

1521
01:20:19,359 --> 01:20:23,840
technological wonder that it goes so smoothly every time. I

1522
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:27,159
really do applaud them. Speaking of our crew, would you

1523
01:20:27,319 --> 01:20:29,680
like to be a crew member? Would you like to

1524
01:20:30,239 --> 01:20:32,520
be a guest on one of our shows? Would you

1525
01:20:32,640 --> 01:20:35,800
like to eventually become a host. Well, we're always looking

1526
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:39,840
for new helpers, new talent, new volunteers to come in

1527
01:20:40,000 --> 01:20:43,359
and be a part of our production. So if you're interested,

1528
01:20:43,439 --> 01:20:49,039
please do email volunteer at Atheist Hyphencommunity dot org to

1529
01:20:49,199 --> 01:20:55,520
get invited. It's been only two callers. Very interesting, No,

1530
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:58,199
I'm very disappointed, quite frankly, John, that we didn't get

1531
01:20:58,199 --> 01:21:02,000
anybody to come in and defend our statement that the

1532
01:21:02,039 --> 01:21:07,239
Bible endorses slavery. Any final thoughts on that concept?

1533
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:11,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and I mean, the Bible endorses several different

1534
01:21:11,319 --> 01:21:15,239
forms of slavery, and there's several different ways in order

1535
01:21:15,279 --> 01:21:17,199
to engage this particular topic.

1536
01:21:17,279 --> 01:21:19,279
Speaker 4: I mean, there's the the whole.

1537
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:25,359
Speaker 3: Morality I guess of or the ethics of owning slaves

1538
01:21:25,479 --> 01:21:29,239
chattel slaves in what ways did the Israelites own slaves?

1539
01:21:29,319 --> 01:21:33,079
In what ways did God confirm that you could own slaves?

1540
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:36,239
And then you know, you can get into the larger

1541
01:21:36,399 --> 01:21:40,119
question of why doesn't for the Christians out there, why

1542
01:21:40,119 --> 01:21:45,600
does an omni benevolent God ever attempt to even regulate

1543
01:21:46,079 --> 01:21:49,000
slavery people being owned as slaves?

1544
01:21:49,039 --> 01:21:51,439
Speaker 4: And you know, why does he do that?

1545
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:55,800
Speaker 3: Why does he list women as property in in in

1546
01:21:55,880 --> 01:21:59,920
his Holy book? And why why does this suppose omniscient

1547
01:22:00,159 --> 01:22:03,760
being who is also omni benevolent? Why is he doing

1548
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:06,720
any of this stuff when it's very obvious to us

1549
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:10,800
slowly humans that we are that it is bad to

1550
01:22:10,840 --> 01:22:14,840
own another person as a channel slave. If we can

1551
01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:18,439
come to that conclusion, then God should have already known that,

1552
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:22,159
and so that makes it an evil act, which by

1553
01:22:22,279 --> 01:22:28,560
evil what I'm referring to there is a deliberate harm

1554
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:33,640
that's done to somebody or people. And I feel like

1555
01:22:34,359 --> 01:22:37,159
God in this particular respect in the Bible, the character

1556
01:22:37,199 --> 01:22:41,399
of God in the Bible is definitely doing evil in

1557
01:22:41,399 --> 01:22:42,479
that particular sense.

1558
01:22:43,119 --> 01:22:43,720
Speaker 2: I agree.

1559
01:22:44,159 --> 01:22:46,359
Speaker 1: I totally agree with everything said. I really don't have

1560
01:22:46,439 --> 01:22:49,720
much to add. I will add as we bring up

1561
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:54,560
if the crew can magic our backup host Kelly Laughlin

1562
01:22:55,119 --> 01:22:58,760
onto our screen to say hi, I will bring up

1563
01:22:58,800 --> 01:23:00,720
a quote. I have a favorite quote I have from

1564
01:23:00,840 --> 01:23:05,079
Robert G. Ingersoll, who was an atheist lawyer born in

1565
01:23:05,199 --> 01:23:09,359
eighteen thirty period eighteen thirty one thirty two thirty three.

1566
01:23:09,359 --> 01:23:12,760
Somewhere there he wrote this thing about the ten commandments.

1567
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:15,479
You can google the whole thing, but my quote that

1568
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:19,800
I think is relevant. He wrote, if Jehovah had been civilized,

1569
01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:22,560
he would have left out the commandment about keeping the

1570
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:26,279
Sabbath and in its place would have said thou shalt

1571
01:23:26,319 --> 01:23:29,319
not enslave thy fellow men. He would have left out

1572
01:23:29,359 --> 01:23:33,640
the one about graven images and instead sow this excuse

1573
01:23:33,680 --> 01:23:36,359
me would have said thou shalt not wage wars of

1574
01:23:36,399 --> 01:23:40,680
extermination and thou shalt not unsheathe the sword except in

1575
01:23:40,800 --> 01:23:44,000
self defense. I you know, this is eighteen thirty.

1576
01:23:44,039 --> 01:23:48,520
Speaker 2: They're doing this. So Kelly thoughts, my thoughts Ingersoll was

1577
01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:49,079
a genius.

1578
01:23:49,199 --> 01:23:51,199
Speaker 8: I mean, that's I could say that perfect.

1579
01:23:51,399 --> 01:23:54,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, about your thoughts on the show, then I agree,

1580
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:56,000
you're not going to get argue it with me.

1581
01:23:56,119 --> 01:23:58,159
Speaker 8: I you know, my biggest thought about the whole show

1582
01:23:58,199 --> 01:24:00,279
today was we didn't get We didn't hear the main

1583
01:24:00,359 --> 01:24:03,600
excuse that I always hear about slavery, that it was

1584
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:04,439
different times.

1585
01:24:04,479 --> 01:24:06,199
Speaker 2: Then yep, yeah it is.

1586
01:24:06,239 --> 01:24:08,640
Speaker 8: So that was absent and I was really expecting to

1587
01:24:08,640 --> 01:24:11,439
hear that today and I was but interesting show. We

1588
01:24:11,479 --> 01:24:14,439
had a couple of good conversations. I did not hear

1589
01:24:14,479 --> 01:24:16,840
a good defense of slavery in the Bible at all.

1590
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:20,039
Speaker 1: So no, maybe anybody listening might be able to call

1591
01:24:20,079 --> 01:24:23,439
in next week and give us this defense. Here's what

1592
01:24:23,439 --> 01:24:25,520
you're going to hear if you go to your pastor,

1593
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:27,079
and you tell them all this, you're going to hear

1594
01:24:27,119 --> 01:24:27,960
what Kelly just said.

1595
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:30,399
Speaker 2: It was different times. Sometimes it was.

1596
01:24:30,399 --> 01:24:33,560
Speaker 1: Not the same type of slavery as you're thinking about now.

1597
01:24:34,720 --> 01:24:38,359
The argument there is so what a it was b

1598
01:24:39,279 --> 01:24:41,520
Even if it wasn't, it's still owning another person that

1599
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:46,439
that's morally repugnant. And then you're also here. God was

1600
01:24:46,479 --> 01:24:51,399
a political gradualist. He knew he couldn't outlaws slavely outright,

1601
01:24:51,479 --> 01:24:53,720
even though as godless.

1602
01:24:53,760 --> 01:24:55,840
Speaker 2: But I heard that one in a long time.

1603
01:24:56,319 --> 01:24:58,399
Speaker 1: So you use the wrong slave, and I'm going to

1604
01:24:58,439 --> 01:25:00,600
turn you into pillars of flame. Why couldn't he have

1605
01:25:00,640 --> 01:25:02,319
done that for you own a person?

1606
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:03,359
Speaker 2: Boom?

1607
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:05,920
Speaker 8: I hear that one all the time too, and always

1608
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:08,359
wonder well, why couldn't God change people's hearts like he

1609
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:09,600
changed Pharaoh's.

1610
01:25:09,199 --> 01:25:12,399
Speaker 2: Heart right right, right, right right right at all.

1611
01:25:12,640 --> 01:25:14,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems, as I said in the intro, full

1612
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:18,079
throated endorsement of slavery. And we know why. We all

1613
01:25:18,119 --> 01:25:21,119
know why sitting here. This is a product of a

1614
01:25:21,159 --> 01:25:24,239
tradition starting in the Bronze Age with goat herders who

1615
01:25:24,279 --> 01:25:26,359
were illiterate and didn't know where the sun went at night.

1616
01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:29,119
They had oral traditions, they wrote them down, and then

1617
01:25:29,319 --> 01:25:32,199
the thing became a political tool to create laws and

1618
01:25:32,319 --> 01:25:35,560
dictate behavior, and part of that was, Hey, we've got slaves,

1619
01:25:35,600 --> 01:25:36,520
how should we treat them?

1620
01:25:37,159 --> 01:25:39,159
Speaker 2: That's what the book is, at least in my take.

1621
01:25:39,199 --> 01:25:41,199
Speaker 1: But I'd be glad to be proven otherwise. So please

1622
01:25:41,239 --> 01:25:44,039
call back next week. Any final thoughts there.

1623
01:25:43,920 --> 01:25:49,359
Speaker 3: John, You know, I would say that I'm really surprised

1624
01:25:49,359 --> 01:25:51,960
that we didn't get anybody calling in to say that, Oh, well,

1625
01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:56,199
God was, you know, progressively getting better. That's another excuse

1626
01:25:56,319 --> 01:25:59,720
is that he had to progressively inch them along to

1627
01:25:59,800 --> 01:26:02,640
war words. And it just it kind of amazes me

1628
01:26:02,760 --> 01:26:06,960
that it takes what thirty five hundred years for God

1629
01:26:07,039 --> 01:26:10,399
to progress people towards not owning slaves, and even then

1630
01:26:10,600 --> 01:26:16,439
it lingers about in several different forms in our modern timeframe,

1631
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:19,640
and it's led to many prejudices and everything like that,

1632
01:26:19,680 --> 01:26:22,680
when God could have easily stopped all that by just

1633
01:26:22,720 --> 01:26:25,479
being like, hey, don't own slaves, don't own slaves.

1634
01:26:26,199 --> 01:26:28,800
Speaker 1: And not only that, but the Bible has been used

1635
01:26:28,880 --> 01:26:33,079
up until the writing time of Ingersoll the eighteen thirties,

1636
01:26:33,119 --> 01:26:37,560
it was used exclusively to justify slavery, and only when

1637
01:26:38,159 --> 01:26:41,640
the Enlightenment had happened and we brought eye ideas of

1638
01:26:41,680 --> 01:26:45,920
morality that are independent of some deity, and we started

1639
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:49,640
rejecting the divinity of kings, and we had these philosophers

1640
01:26:49,640 --> 01:26:53,520
come down. Did people reconsider what the Bible said? And

1641
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:56,760
then they when they realized, you know, slaves or human

1642
01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:00,479
slavery's bad, they went back into the text, renegotiation with

1643
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:04,000
the text and found pieces to say, we're abolitionists. Now

1644
01:27:04,079 --> 01:27:07,279
you shouldn't own slaves because this book says be nice

1645
01:27:07,279 --> 01:27:10,039
to your neighbors even though you bought slaves from.

1646
01:27:09,960 --> 01:27:11,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, it was kind of like the humanist movement of

1647
01:27:12,000 --> 01:27:15,159
the early nineteenth century in Great Britain really kind of

1648
01:27:15,399 --> 01:27:17,920
got the ball rolling on that one. Yes, exactly, and

1649
01:27:18,479 --> 01:27:21,359
I'll grant it most of those people were Christian humanists,

1650
01:27:21,720 --> 01:27:24,960
but Christians had absolutely Christians had eighteen hundred years to

1651
01:27:25,039 --> 01:27:27,680
end slavery before that. It was the humanist part, not

1652
01:27:27,760 --> 01:27:29,199
the Christian part, that ended.

1653
01:27:29,039 --> 01:27:31,840
Speaker 2: It exactly exactly. The books existed forever.

1654
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:35,239
Speaker 1: It was only once other things happened that people renegotiated

1655
01:27:35,239 --> 01:27:37,880
with the text and came up to a different conclusion.

1656
01:27:37,920 --> 01:27:39,920
Speaker 2: Because it's the great, big book of multiple choice.

1657
01:27:40,359 --> 01:27:40,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1658
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:43,720
Speaker 3: I always point out that they had to reinterpret the

1659
01:27:43,760 --> 01:27:49,039
Bible in order to propose the abolitionist side, whereas the

1660
01:27:49,800 --> 01:27:53,319
slave holding side, the south side, the Confederates, all.

1661
01:27:53,199 --> 01:27:55,640
Speaker 4: They had to do was just read written from the.

1662
01:27:55,600 --> 01:27:58,239
Speaker 2: Book black and white words. Yeah.

1663
01:27:58,319 --> 01:28:01,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like, I'm sorry, I'm just over here being

1664
01:28:01,359 --> 01:28:05,560
literate and reading God's word. That's a That's one thing

1665
01:28:05,560 --> 01:28:07,600
that I like to tell people. It's like, oh, I'm

1666
01:28:07,600 --> 01:28:11,840
so sorry that I'm literate and I can read. And

1667
01:28:12,199 --> 01:28:14,399
even then, you know, then they might say it was like, well,

1668
01:28:14,439 --> 01:28:16,720
go back to the original Hebrew. It's like, okay, fine,

1669
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:19,359
let's bring up the Hebrew. And that that's when because

1670
01:28:19,399 --> 01:28:21,640
like if you're call, if you know how to look

1671
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:25,119
up the interleanar and analyze words how they're using all

1672
01:28:25,119 --> 01:28:26,079
that kind of good stuff.

1673
01:28:26,960 --> 01:28:28,680
Speaker 4: You know, if you if you take the time.

1674
01:28:28,520 --> 01:28:31,560
Speaker 3: To learn how to do that, then you can definitely

1675
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:34,560
shut them down quick because it's like it's very obvious

1676
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:36,600
in the Hebrew that it's like, yep, that's a slave,

1677
01:28:36,880 --> 01:28:40,319
like because in the Hebrew it does conflate both a servant,

1678
01:28:40,359 --> 01:28:43,760
like an indentured servant, and a slave. It's all in

1679
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,720
how they're treated. And so like you would only know

1680
01:28:46,840 --> 01:28:49,600
that if you knew like the Hebrew and the surrounding

1681
01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:50,960
context of the Hebrew.

1682
01:28:50,760 --> 01:28:55,119
Speaker 1: Correct, And that's extremely well documented discussed ad nauseum in

1683
01:28:55,159 --> 01:28:59,399
the academic literature. As opposed to naked boy wearing a

1684
01:28:59,600 --> 01:29:03,600
bearing a certain piece of clothing, it means he's Jesus' slave.

1685
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:06,119
Just to bring it back to that, like, there's oh.

1686
01:29:06,039 --> 01:29:09,079
Speaker 3: Long, this we can go on and somehow connected to

1687
01:29:09,159 --> 01:29:10,319
a drunk God.

1688
01:29:12,359 --> 01:29:15,159
Speaker 1: That's that's the zeitgeist Part two.

1689
01:29:15,279 --> 01:29:15,800
Speaker 2: There we go.

1690
01:29:16,399 --> 01:29:19,279
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks everybody, please call back next week,

1691
01:29:19,399 --> 01:29:22,560
especially if you've figured out why God endorses slavery.

1692
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:25,199
Speaker 2: We'll talk to you then, Bye bye, see you on

1693
01:29:25,199 --> 01:29:27,880
the internet.

1694
01:29:29,640 --> 01:29:49,319
Speaker 10: To stop already, stop the hemry around you, buy shit. Welcome.

1695
01:30:10,359 --> 01:30:13,319
Speaker 2: Watch Talking Than Live Sundays at one pm Central.

1696
01:30:13,439 --> 01:30:16,399
Speaker 8: Visit tiny dot c c slash y t t H

1697
01:30:16,560 --> 01:30:18,880
and call into the show at five one two nine

1698
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:21,439
nine one nine two four two, or connect to the

1699
01:30:21,520 --> 01:30:24,600
show online at tiny dot c c slash call th

1700
01:30:24,920 --> 01:30:24,960
H