Speaker 1: What is up, Fellowsikos, I am Dan Valley coming at
you with the one the Old League. They'll legendary this certified,
fantabulous co host of Mine and mister Grant Hughes. I
don't know why I was super possessive there, co host
of Mine. You can't mean anyone else. You're not even
your own co host, You're not even your own person. Uh.
We're gonna talk about storylines, things that we're monitoring that
we think will define the rest of the NBA season.
Feels like a good time to do it, in large
part because we had some expansion content plan for everybody,
and the Ringer went often did their own week, and
so it just felt like we didn't want to look
like it was cripping stuff from them. But let the
record show, even though you will not see it, we
had it. I mean they had it in the clip too, obviously,
but Grant and I had discussed it before the Ringer
had their expansion week. Maybe we'll revisit over the offseason.
For now, we're gonna dig into storylines and stuff that
we're monitoring. But first, the most important question, Hughes, co
host of Mine, how are you doing?
Speaker 2: Uh? I just think that I feel I feel good
because another outlet built an entire week around an idea
we also had. So it's kind of like a validating
I feel validated. How about that you feel you should?
You should feel validated. You're the one that pitched it initially,
so I think I think you should. I mean, it's
bittersweet obviously because we're not gonna be able to do it.
Speaker 1: But uh, if you paranoid like they were, clearly they
didn't plant it themselves and they went and did this like,
oh well two weeks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're either being monitored or I mean, you are
being monitored if we're all being monitored, but like or
the group think has become so pervasive that it's just
like there's no everybody's brains all sync up now. I
think at as you know, on topics and timing of them.
Speaker 1: What was interesting to talk the storyline stuff? Which was
your pitch? So good on you, shout out, shout out
co host of Mine, Grant Hughes. You henceforth will be
known as what was this exercise? Like? What did you
kind of find your self gravitating towards before we dig
into And by the way, this is one of the
episodes where granted I don't know what the other is
got going to say, so that'll be fun.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for me, it was just kind of the All
Star break is not the midpoint, obviously we all have
to point that out, but it is like an arbit
you know, the semi arbitrary cutoff where after it, it
feels like there is kind of this like, oh my god,
there's less than thirty games for a lot of teams left,
and it is it does feel kind of sprinty and like, okay,
we need to learn X, Y and Z now before
the playoffs because this is our last opportunity. So I
definitely view it through that lens of like what big
issues am I still not sure about for And frankly,
it does tend to skew more towards good teams because
that's you know, this time of year is when you
start to see the tankers, like Capital T tank and
you see the best teams hopefully trying to like work
through stuff or establish rotations or see if this weakness
that's been an issue all year can be like that
kind of thing. So I definitely just looked at it
like what am I concerned about? What do I not
have like a lot of clarity on that feels like
a big issue that's gonna brush up against Like I
think what I'm gonna wind up doing is talk a
lot about like what will this mean for the playoffs?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 2: Sort of, it's kind of an indirect connection to that.
Is that is that how you view it? Or is
it more like stuff of the moment stuff?
Speaker 1: I think there's some. I mean, it's it's tough to
focus too much on the moment outside of the the
macro of wins and losses and where how does it
impact the playoffs? Because sometimes you do get like there's
news updates now, but there's nothing that like past the
trade deadline, past the All Star break, like there's aside
from injuries like that, what is what else are you
living in the moment for? Like now kind of feels
like we've entered like this is a prolongated judgment day.
Of these teams are or for the most part, you
would think they are who they are, except for maybe
the teams that made these monster editions at the deadline,
like A or the Warriors as examples.
Speaker 2: I think another shift that happens you just made me
think of is that up to the All Star break.
I think we spend a lot of time, you know,
focused on younger players, rookies, guys that are like, well,
what would it mean if this player got this much
better or improved in this way to the team, Like
and you're you're looking for like you know, upward trajectory
type stuff like what's changing, Like what's what does that
mean big picture for the team, for the league? Whatever.
You pass the All Star break and it's like, well,
you know, now, if like a rookie has a hot stretch,
we'll be like, well, this is a Jalen Green thing,
or this is an Anthony Simon's thing, or this is
a whatever, Like we don't put stock in it, which
is probably unfair because the games still count, but we
all agree that, like it's you know, there's a lot
of mistakes you can make if you're judging things on
the last thirty games of the year. So it pivots
from that to like now I was watching We're recording
this Friday. I was watching pay Grizzlies last night, and
like I catch myself just thinking about like, all right,
what does this mean versus a playoff opponent? Like, man,
you know the Pacers got actually really good forward play
like over top and looked pretty good. He was hitting threes, Like, hey,
what's that mean? In Memphis? John Moran doesn't look very
springy to me, and wonder what that means? Like what
if you know, just you're always I pivot to playoff
thinking as opposed to like, let's watch for like the
new things that are happening and that you know what
I mean. Like it just there's a real fundamental shift
that happens in how I watch games.
Speaker 1: It's like bigger picture stuff too, where it's like even
you're you know, you're you're watching the games, you're like
taking away things from them, but it's less about the
individual takeaways and everything to meet For me now not everything,
but most things now come back, well, how does this
impact the aggregate? And I think that's most of my
stuff because even one of my things is like it's
kind of you through the lens of one team and player,
but it's actually like relating to the entire conference of
the like. So that's I don't know if I do
that on purpose or if that's just how my mind
works this time of the year.
Speaker 2: I think the other thing, the last thing too, is
is like, by now we have a rough idea of
what team's basic strengths and weaknesses are, and you find
yourself looking at like, okay, what can't this team do?
Like what is what is the like little sore spot
to pick at? And is there is what I'm watching
showing me any signs that, oh maybe they could do this,
like oh maybe they can defend the rim, Oh maybe
they can hold up when this player's off the floor,
and you just are kind of like again projecting forward.
I think like the fifty games we've seen make it
so that we have like some pretty well established priors,
and then it's just like okay, is that good enough? A?
And then b if it's not, like is there a
possibility that this flaw or this deficiency can be like
papered over enough to like, okay, well maybe they won't
get bounced in the first round because of it.
Speaker 1: Let's get started, and grant is going to begin for us.
Where are we going, mister Hughes.
Speaker 2: We're going to me putting you on the spot unannounced
really quickly. Do you want to and this is unfair,
but whatever, we've been doing this long enough. Do you
want to try to guess where I'm gonna start.
Speaker 1: Oh, yes, please go Okay, I think you're gonna start
with Jimmy Butler and the Golden State Warriors.
Speaker 2: You're so wrong, Dan, that's my second item.
Speaker 1: I specifically didn't pick anything Warriors specific because I just
assumed that you would be on top of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hesitated to anyway, that's not where we're starting.
We'll get there. I think I'm obligated to start with
paying attention to the thunder offense without shake Gil just
Alexander on the floor because it does have an indirect,
actually pretty direct relation to Jalen Williams, and I thought
you would assume that that's where I was gonna start.
So this team is still just looking like one of
the best defenses of all time. That feels really sustainable
to me, especially since they did it for most of
this year without Chet Holmgren, and I think you and
you agree.
Speaker 1: Oh where they rank all time and error adjust to
defensive rating as of right now?
Speaker 2: Since I just had to write about it, I would
love to know that they.
Speaker 1: Have, relative to the league average, the eleventh best defense
of all time, and I pretty I feel like they're
just gonna get into the top ten. I know they
might fade a little bit because the one seed is
locked up, but Chet's back, as you said, and so
I think I think they'll finish as one of the
ten best ever.
Speaker 2: And we agree this isn't part of the discussion like
Chet is when he's healthy, just you, you don't get
far in the All Defense first team conversation before his
name comes up, like it's he's that level, right.
Speaker 1: Right, And I think when you're talking about Defensive Player
of the Year, which is we'll talk about this eventually
takes on a little bit new meaning. Now it's there
might be some people inclined to argue for someone on
the Thunder to win that award, they shouldn't because the
player who would win that award is if Chet was
healthy this year, he probably would have been second behind Wemby,
and now maybe would have been the favorite for first
because there's a lot of bi committee stuff. But just
to your point to back, like I think Chet is
just he's still just to me, the single most important
defender on that Thunder team.
Speaker 2: Which is bonkers because they're so good without him. But yeah,
I agree. So it's been an issue all year and
the Thunder are team that is good enough to where
you really do like, like we alluded to at the top,
like you really do have to look for like, okay,
where are the questions? And I think this is probably
number one, because smart playoff defenses that can spend more
time game planning, can spend more time, not just you know,
the obvious thing is like let's get it out of
Shay's hands so that we can turn minutes when he's
on the floor, so that we can make those minutes
actually resemble the minutes where he's off, you know, like
we can. It's not just going to be as simple
as the on off splits from the regular season just
won't translate to the playoffs because teams are going to
be more conscientious. Like it's coaching malpractice if you don't
approach every Thunder game as a playoff opponent and down
the stretch opponent of the season with like job one
is like if we just have to hold down Shay,
like whatever that means, that has to be job one.
That like, that's that's obvious for any team with the superstar,
but it's more obvious for this one than really any other.
So just some numbers, right, the Thunder offense with overall
eighty fourth percentile like one hundred nineteen point five per
one hundred. It's actually like with a defense that good,
that's just absurd. It's when Shay is off the floor,
you lose about ten points per hundred off that you
go from the eighty fourth percentile to the twenty second
percentile that numbers one oh seven. Here's a crazy one
with SGA off and with Jalen Williams on. So it's
worse with Williams on and SGA off than it is
with both of them off. So right there, I think,
like my antenna is my bias is like, oh good,
it's as it actually doesn't mean that, you know, it
is so bad that that just like that doesn't pass
the smell test. You're dealing with smaller samples like and
that margin is pretty close. So it's been pretty clear
a year though that like Jalen Williams as a primary
initiator without Gildess Alexander on the floor just isn't good enough.
Like on offense, it's just even with the so with
the defense that good, they actually do like it's kind
of shocking they still I think win the minutes that
that jadab is on without SGA because the defense is
still just like you can't score, but the offense falls
apart to the point that it's like we're getting down
towards like Wizard's levels the So then I looked at like, well, okay,
but what about Chet because it helps to have a
five that can space and you know, handle the ball
and do a little bit that the offensive rating tiny sample,
it's like one hundred and fifty possessions with Williams and
Holgren on without SGA. So it's just like, oh, it's
Jada plus Holmgren, you don't have SGA. Still it's a
one to fifteen offensive rating that's above league average. So
it's like, that'll do it. If the defense is gonna
be that good and you have those two guys out
there and you can put any stock in one hundred
and fifty possessions that that's sufficient. And then you think
about two playoff minutes without SGA are going to be
fewer than they have been in the regular season. I think,
having looked at all that, if you're a thunder fan,
you should feel a little a little better. But I
do think every like this will just be tested from
moment one of the first round, and as defenses get
increasingly more like just effective and well coached, well deployed,
it is just gonna be the defining aspect of the
Thunder's possible championship run. And like I can't, Like I said,
I think you should feel a little better about the
non SGA minutes offensively, but I don't think you should
feel confident, Like I don't think you should feel like
it's not a problem. Where are you on it? Like
I know I threw a lot of numbers out there,
but like, do you think that Chet being back sort
of forces us to reevaluate the whole thing? Or is
this a problem that like we really are just it's
gonna need to be proven wrong by the Thunder.
Speaker 1: I think so I think it's both. If that's weird,
I appreciate your proprietary metrics as always, So that was
really I think those were really instructional because I do
think it's overblown, because I think they have the personnel
and just the lineup flexibility to overcome it and be
better when they're at full strength in the non SGA minutes,
but we haven't seen it in the playoffs, and given
how Jay Dubb struggled offensively in the playoffs last year.
To me, there's a lot of you need to do
it in the playoffs for it to matter, and the
fact that they haven't caps locked done it during the
regular season. Now you could say it's because Chet was absent.
I also think what was really encouraging they have about
a league average offense when it's Jay dub and Isaiah
Hartenstein on with Shay Gilder Alexander off And I was
gonna ask you, even though you were just talking for
a while, so I don't mean to throw it back
on you. Would there be anything too? Does this get
it's probably easier to do in the regular season than
the playoffs. Would you ever consider maybe throwing the kitchen
sink of alternatives on the court without Shaye where order
to play home Grin and Hartenstein and jayle On Williams
when she is on the bench forever long it ends
up being just to kind of well in fury overload
inferior lineups of the other team. Or is it no,
you can't do that, like you could like, that's not
that's not an approach you should take. And maybe it
would speak to a flaw of the roster to where Well,
if you think you need all three of those guys
on the court without Shay, that's a problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I did look up. I wanted
to know what. I didn't assume there'd be much. And
there's like three possessions. I think of both bigs of
Hartenstein and Jada without SGA, and it's like, Okay, that's useless,
we can't learn anything from that.
Speaker 1: Well, hold on, those are three whole possessions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't remember what. I think. The numbers were
very good, so it probably means like they hit a
three on two of them or something, and like the
other team turned it over once and it's like, oh,
they're plus one thousand per hundred. That's pretty good. So
I think that gets into I think, yes, short answer, yeah,
you gotta just do what you can to get the
best possible lineups on the floor when SGA is not
out there. But I think that gets us into like, a,
this is me trying to absolve Jadob of some of
the blame here, Like could it also just be the
case that, in addition to him not just demonstrably not
being great as a first option, you can't even say
he's been good is it that plus like, well, I mean,
if you got I don't know whoever else you have
out there Isaiah, Joe and Wiggins and and Dort or
what whoever else spends time on the floor. Like all
those guys for the most part, Wiggins, I guess is
a little bit of an exception, are really dependent scorers
and like a defense can not relax. But like it's
different than if there was like who's the secondary creator
when when SGA is off the floor like that, it's
like it's rough. It falls to a guy that you
know either is out there because he plays defense or
is like eighth, ninth, tenth in the rotation. That seems
to be some of it, So I you know what
I mean. So I think like if you did just
say when SJ is off, we got to have like
our other four best offensive players out there. It's not
the craziest solution.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. I hate to because JDub is still
his career is still so young. I don't want to
gravitate immediately towards oh he's not number one option material,
but this might just prove that. Okay, well, if he's
going to be that, it's clear that he's not that yet,
and that's fair. He's he just isn't right now, and
that's I think the biggest difference I see is he
struggles with his decision making when he's commanding that much
extra defensive attention. I think it's most evident. You could
see it and maybe the types of three c's taking
as I throw my phones everywhere, But I really think
it's more evident when you look at like what happens
inside the arc with him, Like his two point percentage
basically declines by ten points when Shay's off the court,
and so like the gravity that Shay has, I'm then
wondering if I think anyone could be dependent on this
to an extent unless you're a top five player in
the Like if that's your criticism of Jay Dubb and
you're offended by it, if that's our criticism, I don't
know what to tell you. Like Shay has so much gravity,
he's so talented, that doesn't matter, like does the thunder have.
I'm not trying to absolve Jayn Williams here either, but
like when you're looking at those lineups and fleshing them out,
is there enough supplementary gravity to where Ja Dubb is like, well,
you don't know this defense doesn't feel comfortable having like
three or four sets of eyes on him at any
given point. And I think Chet changes that materially. But
if you're not gonna play him and Isaiah Hartenstein together
during those minutes, which again there's no samples, there's barely
any sample size there, and they haven't Chet hasn't been
healthy enough or Isaiah hart and Stein for that matter,
to there be a sample size. How much of a
difference is that? Really? Then, like going from Chet make
it I want to be clear, Chet's a better player
than Isaiah Hartenstein, but offensively when you look at what
Hartenstein can do as a screener on the interior as
a passer, like the gap. Offensively, if you're just going
from one to the other, how much are you adding
to those thunder units without Shay?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Hartenstein Hartenstigin can like hub is like
you're running everything through him. But I do think Hartenstein
really can be It's the pick and roll. He short
rolls and then he makes the decision like that's We've
seen that work pretty well. So that's one way. I
think the other thing is like this isn't solving it.
But it's almost like masking the problem enough to get
away with it, which is that when Chet is in
the game, the thunder are just they're better at getting
to the room. Like go figure you have a five
that pulls the center out like that works and they
get out and transition more. That's partly because he's just
such a disruptive defender and he's blocking shots and he's
forcing like ugly misses that trigger more uptempo play if
you can. I mean, it's the kind of work around
we talk about a lot where it's like just make
transition happen more often and like just really space basic stuff,
Like it doesn't have to be Jada needs to like
ascend as a pick and roll maestro or become an
isolation monster. It's like you can just create situations that
are better for you know, high expected value possessions. And
that has less to do with Jada maybe than than
you would think. Like I think probably the most likely
solution is you using Chet and other players, you just
like make the tempo different and that gets you enough
transition chances to you know, not be one hundred and
seven points per hundred, Like maybe you're at one twelve, one, thirteen.
You lose the minutes without Shay by a couple points
instead of you know, six seven, And that could just
be the difference between winning and losing.
Speaker 1: I was, And that actually is a nice segment to
my question on this is how much does even focusing
on this matter when in the postseason? And if you
use last year as the analogue, through the ten games,
they played ten postseason games last year, right, I think
it was Shaye was off the court for like eighty minutes, right,
So he's going to play forty minutes a game, and
so you're talking about eight minutes a game, and I
know those can swing. I think that's enough. We've seen
it with Joel Lebid and Philly to where if you're
that reliant on one person for offense, it can swing
an entire series. But when you're this good on defense, like,
how much does what we're talking about actually matter? And
this is with the caveat there's a ton of noise
in there. These Thunder actually a plus seven overall in
the playoffs without Shay on the court last year.
Speaker 2: Right, And yet the narrative was just like right, like
because Jalen had a bad like individual postseason, so it's like, yeah, no,
And I think the more we talk about it, the
more I'm interested in, like how did teams defend the
thunder like with sga on, Like what is it just
gonna be two on the ball every single time and
he's just daring somebody else to do something? And what
does that look like? It'd be fascinating to see.
Speaker 1: I honestly, I still think that might be the way
to go at them, because don't you seem doesn't it
seem like okay SE's other players and I mean Shae
can be a part of this too, but he's the
one drawing all these players of the ball, Like they
have this basically anyone if they roll out there, they
have pristine spacing. But like their players are so conditioned
to like drive, like they get dry field where I've
kind of seen it with the Knicks or Karl Anthony
Town specifically, They're just not going to generate a ton
of above the break three point attempts because they have
so much space and they're going to be conditioned to attack.
And I'm wondering if if you're a defense, like having
someone other than Shay get downhill is probably would you
view that as more of a victory than getting them
to settle for like a catch and shoot three pointer.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, because that's what you don't have when
SGA is not in control of the ball. Like if
you can get any kind of like, uh, I don't
know a facsimile of what he does, so well, then
you're in good shape.
Speaker 1: So that might be something much But I think is
that Do you think that's the right way to defend
him or do you think it's different. I just think
if I beat you, that's what.
Speaker 2: Happens, exactly. I just want the ball anybody else If
we lose because SGA like lights us up and gets
the line fifteen times, you don't want to lose it
that way because that's the way everyone predicts you're gonna lose. Like,
I think you'd rather see Williams have a couple forty
point games or something, because it's just like, well, we
know SGA is gonna light us up if we're not careful.
Like the other thing is an if of your proposition.
Speaker 1: Let's move on here. It is my turn, and I'm
gonna bring up the knicks. But I'm also kind of
like it's my question of can anybody in the East
beat the Cavs or the Celtics like or is this
just a two team race in the East. And I
think I'm focusing on the Knicks because it does feel
like they should have the best chance when you look
at their vitals and if you zoom out and just say, okay,
they are still in the bottom ten of points allowed
per possession when they face a top twenty offense. So
again not top ten a top twenty offense. But Mitchell
Robinson hasn't played and they expect him to return by
the end of this month. We've heard that before. But again,
how much does that matter? Because one, I think comes
down to two elements, how much are he actually gonna play? Well,
I guess three, how much he actually gonna play? What
does he look like? But then how important is he
in these matchups, specifically against Cleveland and Boston Because against Cleveland,
I see it they they're not like a great rebounding
team despite having Mobile and Allen on the floor. A
bunch together Robinson can certainly do that can punish them.
There gonna give you size. I think for the way
that the Cavs play offense this year, he's probably worse
suited to stay on the court just because of their
off ball movement. But just like we've seen what he
can do defensively against them in the past as well.
But like against Boston, am I out of my mind
to say that I don't really think that Mitchell Robinson
matters or at least playing him next to Karl Anthony
Towns is never gonna be the answer to me based
off how Boston is built, and then just what you're
giving up offensively, And then if you want to say
he's gonna matter against Boston, I'm wondering, well, is that
because Karl Anthony Towns, like that's not a matchup he
can play thirty five plus minutes, in which case now
you've opened up a whole different can of worms that
we need to discuss.
Speaker 2: So this is also one of mine, not exactly what
you're asking, but basically the cat Mitchell Robinson, like how
much does it really matter? Is actually what I have
in my notes because I've been stuck on that all
year because just the Robinson absence is like the one okay,
like that could mean something for this next team. That's otherwise,
like we get it, they're five guys play a zillion minutes.
We like a couple of reserves, and if they have
an issue, it's interior defense and cat being the last
line and on and not. Like this has been a
pretty well understood team and strengths and weaknesses in the
whole package. So a couple numbers that, like you can
tell me if this makes you feel better or worse,
So I fil Robinson has not played all year. Basically,
opponents rim attempt frequency and accuracy is like unchanged year
over year compared to last year in this year, So
like the Knicks profile in terms of rim protection, they
last year thirty four point one percent opponent rim and
teen frequency this year thirty five point five, so a
little a little more frequent, not a big deal. Accuracy
was sixty four point eight percent allowed last year, sixty
three point eight this year. So it's like, oh, Robinson's
gonna come in. I'm not saying you or I ever
said this, because this the rim protection aspect of Robinson's
game has always been a little overblown, Like that's not
like the number one thing he's done. He's a big body,
he can, he's athletic, like you know he's got He's
had super high block rates in the past, all that stuff,
but that's not that's not really where he's gonna help. So, like,
if you're looking for Robinson to suddenly make it, so
oh the like this a no fly zone around the
rim because Robinson's back, the Knicks are a different defense,
Like that isn't gonna be the number say that is
not going to be What changes. What I think does
change is just the Knicks were first and second in
offensive rebound rate the last two years. This year their ninth.
Still good, but it's like they were kind of it
was a superpower the last couple of years, which would
there was all those stats we talked about all the
time about how like all the threes they generate specifically
off those offensive boards and how much that propped up
the offense that had like a shitty effective field goal percentage,
But oh my god, they get all these like super
high value second chance looks. So he will affect that,
and I guess like this will be less interesting. I
agree he matters, Robinson does against the Calves. I just
don't understand how he's like a plus other than just
pure depth. If Kat gets in foul trouble against Boston
because of the way, you know, Boston's bigs aren't bigs.
Every guy they put out there that can defend Biggs
will shoot threes and will be on the perimeter. And
Robinson is just like you can't. I mean, Cat's gonna
have enough trouble like chasing Porzingis or Horford or even
like Xavier Tilman's gonna shoot threes. If you have both
bigs out there, It's like, so, I guess the Celtics
will just score a thousand points in the paint because
they just won't be able to dribble contain, you know,
like I don't. I don't know how it helps against
Boston at all.
Speaker 1: No, and it'd be different. And if like I guess
you got to say that Kat was more like Evan
Mobley or Jared Allen to where if you really want
to and I know you're saying that Mitchell Robinson's primary
strength isn't necessarily like shot deterrence at the rim, but
like if you're able to park him as the low man,
and then like you have someone like Karl Anthony Towns
who can and look, Town's probably might be better suited
just being more aggressive, but that doesn't mean he's gonna
be good at it, especially against that team. So if
you had the synergy or the type of makeup that
Cleveland's two bigsdue, I could kind of see how it
would help against Boston, And like I said, I can
see how it will help against Cleveland. You do have
to ask, now, are the second chance opportunities? Is the
defense of rebounding that's not even really a problem for
you right now on most nights, Like is that enough
of value ed to where you just get less dynamic
on offense? Because it's not just I mean, it is
just Mitchell Robinson can't space the floor, but his hands
are terrible. It's like you can't even if he's gonna catch,
you can't count on him to one actually control it
and then two decision make outside of being able unless
he's right at the hoop to do something there. And
I look, I'm I want to be open to the
idea that all right, well it's just another body that
can soak up minutes and maybe you'll alleviate the pressure
on Look the other night against Chicago where the Knicks
they were banged up. But it's just like Jalen Brunton
logged under forty minutes in an overtime game, and I
was shocked, like everybody else is, like, you're over forty
and it's people are tired of us. Not even to us.
We've probably focused on it less, but like they don't
want to talk about the nixt minutes and the injuries.
But when you see things crop up like Josh Hart
runners knee management like that, that's a used thing. And
so just having another body to alleviate, like if Heart
and Adenobi when they're helpy can play a fewer minutes
for the rest of the regular season. I just don't
know how much it matters in the aggregate. And so
it does circle back to let me ask one of
two questions, and let's have let's have a brutally honest
answer to this. Are the Knicks legitimate championship contenders this season?
Speaker 2: I think I have to say, well, I guess what
do you mean by contender?
Speaker 1: Like can I just give you? Can I give you
the answer? It's just no, Right, the answer is no,
and we shouldn't be afraid to say it, because go ahead. No.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, like, I don't think you
can make a credible argument that they're on the level
of Cleveland or Boston and throwing the thunder in the West, Like,
I think those are your three obviously, and then the
Knicks are in the mix with a half dozen other
teams that I'd kind of put in the same tier
below that. So I guess, like, if that top three
are your true actual contenders, like they win the title,
you just say like, yeah, I get it. The Knicks
are not in that group, So I guess I think, yeah,
I just have talked myself into like definitively saying they're
not If that's your contender class, they're not in it.
Speaker 1: And look, I think when you're built the way they
didn't say, they're really good and the offense is just
even when the offense is off, it's on. But they're
not a deep team. And for as dynamic as they
seem on the wings, like they're just not able to
be dynamic enough on the defensive end because their two
most important players are players that other teams will go
at and I think, like one of them, you're gonna
come away for most games and say, fuck one of
them was really bad or that was the weak point.
And I think against Boston, specifically Karl Anthony Towns is
the bigger just based off what we've seen so far
this season. Now, I think every game they have left
against Boston, against Cleveland, they've already played OKAC twice. It's
gonna be used as a barometer as we record this.
They're playing the Cavs on Friday night. That's not gonna
be a good game to measure. The Knicks are banged up,
They're coming off the second night of a back to back.
But like these games matter as a litmus test, and
for the Knicks more so, I think it's gonna be
about what, within reason, Ken or should they do after
this season to get on the level of a Cleveland
or Boston because they don't have I mean, they are
the betting favorites to land Giannas attenta Kupo. Somehow did
you see.
Speaker 2: This beyond insane?
Speaker 1: With what Well, remember we almost recorded when we saw
the rumor that league executives thought the Nicks acquire Kronothy
Towns to make it easier to trade for Giannis at Tentakompo. Yeah,
I have no idea through how that's possible. Is it? Well,
Towns is matching salary or it's Towns is such a
good fit. Next to Giannis, I just my whole thing
is they don't have a ton of stuff they could do.
But like the information on specifically look towns in Ariel
huck PORTI the sample size is like thirty something possessions.
They've killed it now. Teams are not hitting threes or
shots at the rim, but like, maybe there's something to
replicate there and perhaps the dual bigs have a bigger
impact than we're crediting right now. But I think it's
time to acknowledge this Nicks team is really good. And
if you want to say that we're shrinking the contender
window too much, but we have the Thunder, the Calves
and the Celtics. If I were to throw out other
teams in the West, like I would be less surprised.
And tell me if you agree if the Nuggets won the.
Speaker 2: Title, Uh no, I agree. I think the Nuggets are higher,
are closer to the top tier than the Knicks are.
Speaker 1: And I think it gets spicier when you say, would
you be more or less surprised if the Grizzlies, let's say,
made the finals.
Speaker 2: I think it a similarly surprised, I guess because maybe
maybe less.
Speaker 1: If it shouldn't be that much of a debate if
the Knicks are a contender, because they are right, and
so what I would then ask you to wrap this up,
are the Knicks in so far as there is a
third threat to come out of the East, is it
still the Knicks? Like does that need to be the
default pick? Or do you look at some of these
other teams? And I would say specifically, at this point,
Giannish just exists. And so there's Milwaukee, and then I mean,
like Indiana, I said this, I don't think it was
a podcast that you and I died together at this rate,
and like, I'm not this isn't even just I watched
the Grizzlies Pacers game too on Thursday. Uh, this isn't
me just saying it off that I said it before.
The way the Pacers are built and being able to
push different buttons that the Knicks can't, I think I
trust them in a playoff series more than I trust
the Knicks against the the Celtics of the Cats. And
that might be a take that age as poorly, but
then that might say more about the separation between Boston
Cleveland than everybody else in the East.
Speaker 2: I would say it's harder than I am comfortable with
to say the Knicks are definitely better than the Pacers,
because I mean, certainly lately the Pacers are like, Okay, well,
remember earlier in the season, we're like, oh my god,
this is like a failed like soft rebuild. That's like
they're not going to be any good. They're like fifteen.
I think the one fifteen to twenty is the stat
I just thought like that. Okay, so that's I think
I like the Knicks a little better than the Pacers.
But so yeah, I guess I would say I still
would put the Knicks third, but yeah, Milwaukee, Indiana, if
Orlando could shoot or had been healthy all year, that
might be an interesting thing. Like I don't know how
far down you want to go, but but yeah, I
think I think you're right. If the purpose here was
to establish the Knicks are not a true blue contender,
I think we've succeeded.
Speaker 1: I just and just very quickly. And why I've con
I would say I like the Pacers mores. I think
that they've shown a more sustainable defensive peak than the Knicks,
like during this stretcher since January one, so we're talking
about twenty games, they're just eighth in points laub per possession.
That is just not the Knicks have not had this season,
to the best my knowledge, a twenty game stretch where
they have been in the top eight of point slap
per possession.
Speaker 2: And so yeah, but tam that season opener where they
gave up like two hundred points, that's still skewing the Look.
Speaker 1: Honestly, they're eight trigger, They're eighteenth in point slap per
possession against top ten offenses, and that's with that opening
night against Boston filtered in and so like that's a win, yes,
but and I look, anyone who was as fucks knows
that I want to be wrong about this, but I
just feel like that I don't know if it's because
we're like the East is the East, and so we're
just the Knicks or third, and we're penciling like they're
comfortably third, so we're just gonna pencil them in there.
I don't think people are being critical enough of the
season because they're a really good team. And I mean
critical in the sense of I don't know what they
were supposed to fix, they don't have the tools to
fix it at the deadline, but just kind of like
being okay, with this is a fine season. But when
you go all in to the extent that the Knicks did,
I don't care that you're slated to face Boston in
the second round, Like if you just get bounced in
the second and if it's not close, like that is
what the that needs to be the success. I won't
kill the Knicks if they lose in the second round,
which I think is what's gonna most likely happen. If
the I mean they're gonna be third, it's gonna set
them up to play Boston in round two and they're
gonna lose. That's what I would predict. If you go
down in like four or five games, you need, like
after what you did over the past year plus, like
in terms of trading and remaking the roster. I'm not
gonna call for them to trade everybody and blow it
up like no, that that fucking matters. And it's a
conversation that I'll need to be had. Look, I'm getting squeaky,
So you did you triggered me.
Speaker 2: Let's go from the contender to the championship favorite. I
don't know if you heard, but the Warriors will win
the championship.
Speaker 1: What do you like?
Speaker 2: Okay, obviously that's when Draymond said that and doubled down
on it, and it was in front of us San
Francisco crowd, and like, you know that he'll.
Speaker 1: He he also thinks that the league teams only shoot
threes or some ship. So I'm watching Draymond's like a.
Speaker 2: Man, like the reputation is one of the smartest players
ever is gonna anyway, So before we get into the
merits of it, I would just point out that in
the in the recent past, the war like Kerr and
even Steph and a lot of people associated with the
team have said like not you know, I'm paraphrasing, but
haven't essentially like admitted when they don't have it like
what they They kind of have been pretty forthright when
they've had teams that are just like, you know, we're
we're not at the level that we used to be
or we're not in that top level. I think they
have admitted that fairly readily in the past. It's you know,
over the past few seasons. So like, I do think
despite it being objectively wild that Draymond said that, it
to me indicates like they actually might like collectively think
something close to that as a team with Jimmy Butler
on board, we don't need to get into like how
valid that is, because I don't. I mean, I just
think even you can't. You can't say that three games
into the guys time with the team and one player
just can't be that impactful with all the problems the
Warriors have. But I think we do need to, like,
using the small sample we've had so far, There'll be
another game played by the time you hear this, and
it'll they're playing the Kings on Friday. Like, from what
you've seen, would you agree that Jimmy Butler, whatever he makes,
whatever he does to lift the overall ceiling, like really
really clearly addresses like a couple of the biggest problems
that this team has in a way that like does,
in fact, like kind of change things from a like
this team is a five hundred team to oh, ok,
they could win around and like get interesting beyond that potentially,
Is that is that overblowing it?
Speaker 1: No, because you're talking to the first of all, you're
talking to the wrong person about this. I just wrote
about how I think the Warriors are gonna finish in
the top six for the regular season, and I think
I would have to double check, but like the odds
of that are just not in their favor because they have,
as we're recording this, four losses to make up and
like inside of thirty games to go, that's really hard
to do. But what you just said, I think what
the Jimmy Butler trade, if we had to kind of
boil it down to a simplified take, did more than anything.
It gave the Warriors actual lightning in a bottle potential.
Now because of the things that he can potentially address,
which is another from scratch sort of creator. They have
never well, I'll say during this Steph era, they have
never had a perimeter player that can put pressure on
the rim and generate free throws like he can. You've
already mentioned the sample size is very small. The offense
has been really good when he plays without Steph Grant,
that's like, that's a big fucking deal. And so if
you put the Warriors, let's say they get out of
the play If you put the Warriors in a playoff series,
these are the teams I'm prepared to guarantee that they
will not beat the Thunder And that's it. Yeah, And
like I would still have the Nuggets ahead of them.
I want to make that clear. But if you're getting
into like in a playoff series, I'm gonna need to
see a hell of a lot more from a Houston,
from a Memphis, from the Lakers to say like no, Like,
they're definitely better equipped to beat the Thunder or the
Nuggets than the Warriors might be in a vacuum. So
I don't think I would argue that you're not Warriors
pilled enough.
Speaker 2: Oh boy, is that what we're doing?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 2: So yeah, I do think the one of the most
interesting aspects of the storyline I'm watching here, which I
should have been more explicit about, is like how good
is this Warriors team down the stretch like post edition,
Like I think the Butler it was almost a rhetorical
ask of you, like, yeah, Butler getting to the line.
And actually also like curbing turnovers just because like when
he has the ball, things get simplified. It's like he's
gonna make the right pass. He doesn't swing for home
runs very much, which everybody else that's on the ball
for the Warriors tends to do. So you cut the turnovers,
you slow the game down, You make the rest for
Steph actually extend because you're shooting free throws all the
time if Butler's on the floor and Steph is not,
so like it counts double. Like there are real like
knock on effects of like the couple things that he
does very very well in addition to the whole Like,
oh shit, he might just be the best player in
a playoff series regardless of who's on the other side.
Like that's actually still possible. What I'm actually most interested
in now is like, so, what is the best lineup
for this team against the best opponents, Like it's it's
just not gonna include spacing. And how big of a
deal is that? Because you're gonna reintroduce Jonathan Cominga pretty soon,
and you would assume whether he starts or not, if
he's not in a closing lineup. Everybody's upset include him ownership,
Like everybody's pissed off if Kaminga is not right back
out there, lad.
Speaker 1: Inject for a second. Just given the trajectory of how
things have gone with Kaminga and Golden State, isn't that
almost what you expect to have, Like there's all another
shoe that's dropping, or like there's highs and lows and
there's never like an in between.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's insane, it's it's the biggest yo yo
effect ever. I just like my opinion, I think you
have to at least give it a real extended look
over these last thirty or so games with Steph Butler, Kaminga, Draymond,
I guess Pajemski or Moody, I don't know who you're like.
I think Buddy Heel has kind of played himself out
even though, like God, they need like a gravity kind
of type of shooter and he just hasn't been it.
I think you have to really give that a long
look and see how viable the offense is because you
want to be switchable and athletic and have more rim pressure,
which Kaminga provides in addition to Butler and dre On,
Like those three guys can really kind of give you
some real variety on both ends. I think I think
you just you're obligated to give that as long of
a look as you possibly can. Whether they'll do that
or not hard to say, because, like you pointed out,
like sometimes they just don't do it. I think I
really think that Kaminga can be an additive player, but man,
we've seen him just go into the tank when he
isn't you know, getting big time on ball reps in
a major role, and with Butler there, it's way harder
for him to be in that position. And like, that's
a knock that that matters to him and that affects
how he plays. But it is just reality. So I'll
be watching, like, well, what version of Kaminga from a
motivational like and aggressiveness and confidence standpoint is going to
show up? And then how healthy is he? This is
a really long layoff for an ankle injury, and how
much rope do the Warriors give this? You know, what
should I think be their most dangerous lineup?
Speaker 1: I'm so curious to see what the integration of Kamingo,
Like what is the offense? I know? I so we
know what their top four players in theory should be.
So who would your preferred you already mentioned, buddy, He'll
be like, who would your preferred default fifth guy? Beer?
Like what do you like? How do you play Draymond, Jimmy,
Butler and Kaminga together? Schematically? It's just like who is
the is it? Like Kaminga has to be a space
around Draymond and Jimmy with Steph actions right a lot
of the time or no, like.
Speaker 2: What is Yeah, he does and he shot forty percent
from three in like the fifteen ish fifteen or twenty
games prior to injury, like he was making threes. We
always talk about though, like every defense is gonna be
like thank you for shooting that still, like he's not
the guy that you're freaking out about, you know, being.
Speaker 1: The cop to preseason shooting that was something else.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I I don't I don't know what that's
gonna look like. He will have the space, uh and
and be opportunistic in attacking closeouts and and honestly, like
you're not putting your best, most athletic defender on him.
So that's a plus because that guy's gonna have to
guard Butler now, and your your quickest, you know, sharpest
wing is gonna be on steph like, so there will
be opportunities. I think the fifth guy right now, I
think Pajemsy's playing the best. I think Moody's pretty close.
But if Pajemski can make threes, then he gives you
another guy that will make plays too, which still matters.
So it'll be fluid. Unfortunately, it would be nice if
Pajemski just had like a stranglehold on it, but he
just doesn't. And I think Moody can be the better
guy on some nights, but I don't know, unless I'm
just grossly overlooking somebody, I'm not really thinking that hard
about anybody else for that at that last spot, unless
he'll gets like you know, first fifteen games hot, which
feels like the exception to the rule now.
Speaker 1: Well also is sort of what you've laid out, so
it's not gonna be like their default is Draymond at
the five.
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, like you're trying to win the last
five minutes, that's who's got to be out there. Yeah,
it does seem like Quentin Post, I think, is gonna
get the like you're to get up three threes in
the in your first stint, and if you make one
or two of them, you might see some second half action,
and if you don't, it's gonna be looney, and then
that exacerbates the space and crunch I mean even more.
But I think I think TJD is out of the
rotation just because that's he just isn't doing enough to
justify playing over Looney or Post. But yeah, it's I
kind of feel like it's gonna be a lot of
looney and you're gonna look at lineups that sometimes have
Steph's the only guy you care about as a spacer,
and like, what happens then you know.
Speaker 1: My next one. So we'll go negative here for a second,
looking like who's not I don't want to say who
has more on the line, but I'm kind of looking
at what is the fallout from what we kind of
know is gonna happen this the rest of the season
for and like who's going to have it worse looking
into the offseason if they quote unquote fail this year
between Dallas, Philly, Sacramento and Phoenix. And because it's I
think you can look at Phoenix and say, Okay, they
clearly have the hopeless, most hopeless financial and asset situation,
but the Kings like kind of didn't pivot into a
rebuild after moving Fox and like what the Mavericks made
one of the worst or most confusing trades of all time.
And then Philly, Okay, you can say the thing I
can't get to with Philly, And now I'm not saying
they're my pick, but just get to the plan in
and reasonably be healthy, Like what have you seen anything
from this team at full at even close to full
strength that makes you things like, yeah, like that's what
they need to do, because I have yet to see that,
Like come talk to me when the Big three is
like running opponents off the floor. So there's just I
find it fascinating because there's gonna be fallout and maybe
Dallas might have the like the most teflon stomach for
what comes next, because a Nico Harrison is clearly just
like that organization is dancing to the beat of a
different drum right now. But of those four, who would
you pick where it's I don't want I don't know
if it's saying they're gonna be under the most pressure
or which team is going to have like the most
egregious fallout from how we because this the something might
not even make the play in right now too, like
and ditto for the Sixers. As we're recording.
Speaker 2: It's funny because one of my items was like, who
are who's the next class of blow up? Blow it
up candidates? And it features three of the teams you mentioned,
So we have again a kind of similar thing that
will not include who else do I have? Oh, I
have the Bucks and Pelicans on there as, but those
are like more they're they're a little bit different than
the class of teams you mentioned, but it's close enough
we can talk about it. So for the Sixers, like
you asked, like, what have we seen that suggests like,
oh there's something in there, Like what.
Speaker 1: Have we heard?
Speaker 2: And the answer to that is what we've heard is
Joel Embiid what twice now in the last few weeks
saying like I'm not there and I need like I
won't be you know, like performance wise until I get
this knee fixed. Like it's so you haven't seen anything
on the floor, And what we're hearing is he's he's
telling you I can't get there, and whatever hope you
have of the Sixers, you know, making a magical play
into conference finals or anything kind of run, it's all
dead if Embiid is this and like he just is
saying he will be this until it gets he gets
his knee fixed. And like the real I'm talking about
fallout is like he might be this period like you
can only go, you know, fix the knee so many
times until it's like no, no, this bad news. It
is fixed, Like this is as fixed as it gets.
So that's that's like the catastrophizing angle to take here,
but like it's it's in play, so fallout wise, like, yeah,
the Sixers might really just be in a position where
Embiid isn't going to be able to play frequently or
at a high level ever again, and what do you
do from there? And you got Paul George on this deal,
and yeah it's just a finger or whatever, but also
look at his age, look at just the production. That's bad.
I still just think, well, I don't know it really
is between them and the Suns, right, because the Suns
have gone all into the most extreme degree and with
the worst results for an all in we've seen in
a long time. It just feels to me like the
Suns have outs that that the Sixers don't, you know
what I mean? If they need to, you can trade
Durant you don't want to, but you can trade Booker
and then you're back to sort of being a more
normal team. Whereas the Sixers it's like, well, if Embiid
has damaged goods, what are you gonna can you? Can
you trade him for anything? And can you trade Paul
George for anything? So I think, like, I know your
question isn't like who's worse off, but it almost feels
like it's the Sixers, doesn't it.
Speaker 1: I go back and forth on that because I see
what you're saying, the Sons have outs, but like they're
out Like they're out is very specific to where they
have traded away so much of their draft and like
swapped out so many things that unless you're getting back
your own picks, like okay, well then what like, okay,
you can you will get more assets if you trade
Kevin Durant than if you trade Paul George or probably
even Joelle Embiid right now. But like when you don't
have any of your own picks through twenty and thirty one,
unless you're getting your own picks back as part of
that trade, like, what's the point? And I think with
the Sixers, at least you look at it and say,
Tyres Maxie is still there. They have some of their
draft moving forward, They have other draft picks already moving forward.
If the Suns move Kevin Durant, like why isn't Devin
Booker just next?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, where are you?
Speaker 1: Like you can't point to the Sun and say, well,
we know Devin Booker is going to be there, Because
I would argue Devin Booker's on the Suns beyond next season,
I'd probably be shocked at this point.
Speaker 2: Does it help at all that the obvious trade, whether
you're talking about Booker or Durant, just is to Houston
for and then you do get some of your picks
back like that. I mean, I'm not saying I definitely
I'm asked sort of asking the question, like, oh, what
if it is the Sixers that are worse off. I'm
not sure. They're both in big trouble in different ways,
but the Suns do have the rockets just sitting right there,
needing an offensive centerpiece, and they have your picks.
Speaker 1: So, like you know, with the Sixers, though, isn't there
more hope of this working out? And it's in the
sense of maybe you get another semi healthy season from
Joel Embiid, whereas with the Suns it feels like when
they've been healthy, they've been worse like like that doesn't
really make it like it's just the setup they have.
They have no outs to augment it and so you
have to get out of it completely. Where's the Sixers?
It's yes, joelbe might be cooked, but like we've also
seen Hi miss a ton of time in the past,
and like this is an ideal, but maybe he's knee
as another search, which, by the way, can we spend
a second on that If you need to get stuff
like why are we not getting it fixed? Then let's
run it back next year and open.
Speaker 2: That's a whole other part of this conversation of like
we've we've had discussions about whether it made sense for
the Sixers to tank, and and we've said, well, you know,
they can only they're not gonna be able to maximize
that pick enough because there's too far to fall. They
can't make up that ground, and the odds of that
pick being great enough to justify a tank aren't high.
Now it's now, it's what you're talking about of like
just start the recovery clock now, as opposed to waiting,
because maybe this way you have like a full off
season and of like you're ready to go in October.
The longer you wait, like you can't have this like
gradual ramp up shit anymore. Like you got to be
ready to go in twenty five, twenty six. So I
think I think the only move now is to call
it right and just if somebody needs surgery, you get
it done tomorrow. And and this season is a wash
and whatever happens with that pick whatever, Like that's not
the point.
Speaker 1: About that, and it is if you want any chance,
like it's try to get Joelle and be right for
next year. Like fuck to pick at this point.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the other thing, I think you made the
best argument that the Suns are sort of like worse
off because with the Sixers you can still say, well,
we haven't seen like the full realization of our vision
because like, oh, Paul George miss time and MB's not
his best or whatever. The Sons have like kind of
been pretty healthy with like relatively speaking, with all three
of those guys, and the team's bad and they don't
have ways to fix it, and so like this was
the vision and it sucks like they just don't have
a way to get better. They can't fall back on like, well,
if this changes, next year will be It's like, no,
this is your team, like you're just locked in.
Speaker 1: And there's also eleven of at least that we isn't
yet emanating out of Philly and maybe it will. There's
like a level of dysfunction there That makes it even
worse because the like the whole Kevin Durant trade stuff
that you weren't talking to him about it and then
he finds out about it through that way and he
had to turn down the trade because it sounds like
it wasn't so much about the Warriors. It just he
didn't want to move mid season. What were you? I
just what was the logic here. I'm not saying you
need to work in collaboration with every player to trade them,
but when it's Kevin Durant and you know Kevin Durant's
track record and you know that, like he's not under
contract for that much longer, what are you? What are
you doing?
Speaker 2: And like with a one huh, I don't know accuracy
rate once the Durant is like not super happy, bell
gets wrung. It's never unwrung. It's all always every single
time it has concluded with changing teams, every time it's happened.
So like, oh, you're gonna get reports of like it's fine,
and there's been some mitigation even now of how like
he's like it wasn't about the Warriors. I just didn't
want to get traded. It's like we've already the alarm
has already sounded, and now it's just a when like
he and Brian Windhorse said, like everybody under the sun
expects him to be traded, even.
Speaker 1: For him, of all people to say that too, because
he knows all this shit. And then it's like you'll
talk about how he knew it before it happened. For
him to say it preemptively, I mean, he's gone. So
I did just to mention them quickly. I can't bring
myself to pict the Kings, even though they're like probably
one of the most confusing teams in the at least internally,
how they view themselves, have gone about trying to improve
or position themselves. The mom's bonus is really good, and
they have the bones of like this team will be solid.
I don't think that they even have a pathway to
being better than that, like better than what they were
with Fox at this moment. Anytime soon, I think I
would have them like lowest on this list in terms
of Okay, well, what's the fallout look Like? Maybe I'm
wrong there because Dallas, I'm just like, are we just
sure Kyrie wants to sign up for all this again?
And if he decides to leave or even gets wandering eyes,
like what does that mean for like Anthony Davis injured
right now, but like him having to be the subject
of I know the fans haven't attacked Anthony Davis personally,
I want to make that clear, but like the rhetoric
surrounding that trade is always be like you were fucking
stupid for trading Luka danchis fr Anthony Davis. There has
to be a part of him. They'll pay him, they'll
extend him. Maybe that money heals all, but it doesn't
have to be a part of him. It doesn't want
to be like related to that, like tethered to this
at all.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, he's he's like it's not quite guilty by association,
but like the stain of the trade that has nothing
to do with him is like is on him, and
it's just it's just like that sucks. He's he's in
a position where unless he just is a finals MVP
and wins them a championship, it's like it's what's he
gonna do that could be good enough? You know, And
it's not his fault.
Speaker 1: He didn't ask for this, and at this rate, he's
gonna have to do it at the center position with
the way big men are dropping it, right.
Speaker 2: Nobody stays healthy there. I mean you want to talk
about fallout though, Like you know, there was all that
talk about like just the MAVs lost like hundreds of
thousands of followers on social Like I'm the last person
that gives a shit about that. But it's like coupled
with the fan revolt, like you really might have cost
yourself like a generation of fans that are just like
never again. You know, like that that feels pretty real.
And what does that mean for like the team on
the floor, Maybe not much, but like that, that's like
a level of fallout. I guess to keep using the
word that none of these other teams are facing to
where it's like you've alienated a lot of people that
just will never trust the franch the ownership because that's
the constant. They're never going to trust this ownership group.
Nico Harrison, Like what's the over How long is Nico
Harrison gonna be there? There're already been whispers that like
he doesn't want to do this forever, but it's like
he's gone in a year.
Speaker 1: He thinks the.
Speaker 2: Long term is three years, so that right, which maybe
he's just being honest about the tenure of an executive.
But still, yeah, Dallas is a different class. The Kings
are just the Kings want to be decent and they're
going to be decent and uh, or maybe they want
to be more than decent, but they're conducting business as
if they want to be decent, and they will hit
that goal. And there's a firm cap on on that,
I think, And I don't know, it's just they're they're
they're bulls West. It feels like, uh to some extent,
I mean literally will give him their wings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they're really and even just like the
setup of just so let's put like a defensive liability
behind those I just don't. Yeah, my pick would be
the Suns, and I might actually elevate the Mavericks over
the Sixers just because they're almost stuck in a way
that might be good where we're not going to trade
Joel and beat then deer of his value right now,
so you might as well have him get surgery and
hopefully he gives you if he gives you fifty games
next year and like he's just healthy for the playoffs,
like you have that out. I don't, I guess Dallas
does still kind of have that out and Max Christie's
look pretty good for that. I don't I don't know,
but I think the Suns are the pick for me
in terms of the team that I think we'll have
the most fallout from.
Speaker 2: A point he talked me into it. It's just like
the blow up's pretty imminent there. I want to talk about, uh,
before we get to the the we just have the
one more. We'll get to the Spurs in minute with
the wimbi of it all, but we want to talk
about the Luca Lakers stuff because now that the main
justification for him being traded is just out there, is like, oh,
conditioning commitment, like he just we don't believe in him
long term, I find myself, and I think in general,
like people are viewing him through that lens. So it's
like you see him against Charlotte the other night and
it's like five turnovers in the first quarter, no lift,
just looks like he can't move, looks awful, Like I
think he almost had a triple double, which like kind
of is tells you like what he can do anyway,
But the Lakers do lose that game to a terrible
Hornets team and Luca was really really bad, looked really
bad physically, and it's like, oh, now, like now he
really has to prove that narrative wrong. And like I
don't think we're gonna see that this season. I really
think like he's never gonna because there's not enough time left.
He looks very clearly hobbled to meet like it just
doesn't look to be in any kind of shape from
like again, I know this is unfair, but like from
body composition standpoint two, just like he's gassed immediately, like
and because he hasn't played and it's a calf injury,
you're not running on that when you're out. I think
this season for the Lakers, like is it's gonna be
spent looking for signs that Luca is Like, Oh, he's
looking a little better, But I don't. I'm do you
think we'll see like all NBA first team level Luca
at any point before next year?
Speaker 1: I don't. My guess would be no, which would be
one of my tangential items was like, what is the
Lakers ceiling this season? Because even if Luca is Luca,
it feels like and the numbers don't back this up
just yet because the sample size is so small. This
defense should be really bad, like with the way that
the like they're Tamson out here, what's that?
Speaker 2: But it hasn't been.
Speaker 1: Somehow, No, it hasn't been. So like maybe I'm missing
something like Reeves has played pretty well and like you've
gotten some good minutes having from Ruie, but you have
Dorny Finny Smith gave Vinton's come on a little bit.
Vanderbilt doesn't play in their win over the Blazers, nor
did Luca, but you have him. So maybe I'm kind
of over correcting there, but it ties into the same thing.
I just think there's no more time for him to rest,
like we've entered the stretch run. If they're gonna buy
him rest, it's just to kind of preserve whatever version.
And you're also in this new environment. We're just integrating
someone such a massive piece like Luca on the fly
is super difficult, and then knowing kind of how you
know if if you trusted And this isn't a great
example because Dallas had Luca playing off the ball in
a little bit faster over the past couple of years,
like just a little bit more. But you know who
JJ Reddick is and you have Lebron's like that, forget
the speed thing, but like you're gonna try and you
use Luca in a bunch of different ways, and I
think you should like, not that you should punt on
this season. It's Lebron's age forty season, but like you've
now signaled that Luca is the future of your franchise.
The experimentation begins now almost you shouldn't view the consequences
of this season as anything, and so I would expect
that to continue as well. How long does it take
to even hash out the dynamic between him and Bron
and him and the rest of the team. So even
if Luca is Luca, there's still that element of unfamiliarity
that I think was going to read. We always I
think I'll speak for myself. I always get a little
over excited in the moments like, oh the Lakers got Luca,
Like how much better are they going to be? For
the most part, this shit take time to figure out
when you're dealing with high usage players. It's very rarely.
I'm trying to think Kevin Durant to Golden State was
kind of the one where yeah they were growing pains,
but the top end talent was just so good. But
him and Steph Curry are two of the most plug
and play superstars of all time.
Speaker 2: And you got an off season, you got it. You
didn't do it mid stream. That's the other thing. Like
the mid stream change is like I mean you like, oh,
Clyde Drexler to the Rockets in like ninety four, like
that worked out well, but like I mean, you're you're
digging real, like Rashid Wallace to the Pistons, like that
was an in season trade too, Like I don't know
nothing else jumps readily to mind of a trade of
this magnitude where I was like, no problem, hit the
ground running, everything worked, and and like it might be
a different conversation if Luca were the best version of
himself and like he just isn't for a number of reasons,
and like I just don't think it's realistic for him
to get there by the play. And then that's the
other thing you mentioned it like there are no seasons
to burn with Lebron at forty Like so now you're
hoping you get one year of like both of them
at whatever passes for their best now, like it's it
is a shame I think that, Like if Luca were
like full on Luca and you threw him on this
Lakers team and he was healthy and you know, everything
was good, I like I would be more inclined to say, like,
I don't They're going to figure it out and it's
going to be terrifying, Like I don't care about the defense,
I don't care about anything else. You got those two guys,
they'll figure out how to win. It's just the circumstances
just aren't conducive to that right.
Speaker 1: Now, do you? And when we're looking at this now,
if we focus on just Luca, and I think this
is probably one of my biggest character flaws is I
understand that we do not live in a meritocracy, but
I am conditioned to give people the benefit of the
doubt in the sense of, let's look at Nico Harrison,
the Mavericks. You can't be this fucking stupid, right, Like,
it is what I'm thinking about in my head, and
so I lead it leads me to think, like maybe
we should worry about Luca long term. That the fact
that like there's no one even if you don't like him,
even if you had doubts about him, just giving off
what he's done. You can't be so again fucking stupid.
It's a just willy nilly get rid of someone like him.
And so in my head, I'm like, well, there must
be something here, like is there just something wrong with
his body or something else that we don't know about,
to where you're not just worried about are we gonna
get first team All NBA Luca for the rest of
this season? But has for some reason this player who
is only twenty five years old, already a perennial MVP candidate,
already made so many first team All NBA squads, Like
have we already seen the best of Lucas? So like
that's kind of in the bat I I will say, no,
I don't think that's the case. But just because this happened,
and again, like I said, it might just be a
character flow on my end that I'm giving any sort
of benefit of the doubt or treatence to what Dallas did.
I'm not gonna lie, though, It's like it's still creeping
up my mind to where like do we need to
worry about this beyond this year?
Speaker 2: That's where I started with is like now I watch
him differently, and now I think of him differently because
like to your point, the MAVs and and Nico Harrison,
like they're in a position to know, like they they
have more information than anybody else like that, and you
you do you sort of like it's like that make
it make sense, Like you just want it to be
irrational because it just still that trade, the irrational component
of it is will forever be and this won't change
for me. I don't think no matter what happens, is
not shopping him and not getting more than they got
like that that will be anexcusable to me for eternity.
But the idea that like you're saying, we as Dallas,
think we've seen the best of him, or at least
we don't think we're going to see enough of him
at a level that we need to to justify a supermax.
Like I don't know, man, like you have. As crazy
as that trade seemed, I think you you're right. I
think you have to say there's you have to give
a little bit of deference to the people that were
around him for his whole care deciding this because it
seems crazy and like I'm just not ready to accept that,
Like there's that level of a rational actor out there
in that position.
Speaker 1: I have I think two more before the Wemby thing.
The one I absolutely want to get to is the
who's next. So when you look back at last season,
you kind of understood, oh, the Rockets, maybe even the Magic,
like those teams were next, and then the magically started
that like that this year, and then the Rockets are
there right now, so some people might view them as
next in a sense, Oh, they're going to be a
title contender by next season, like they're kind of here.
And so I'm just looking at it feels like every year,
especially during this time, or at least post January one,
we all collectively settle on the team that is next,
for whatever reason it might be. And this year, I
don't know that. I just have this consensus answer to that,
And so I'm wondering, is it just, oh, it's like Houston,
we're just working from a higher level, or is it
do you look at any of these other teams that
are floating closer to the bottom and convince yourself, oh,
like no, like they're putting us on notice for the
next x amount of seasons.
Speaker 2: Well to not jump on it again too early. San
Antonio would have been a nice pick here had things
been different, and maybe they still are the pick. We're
just not going to see the like tantalizing late season
run that would make that. Houston's the first thought. But
they're already very good, and I think we'll probably need
to change a little bit to get that next level,
like Memphis has already been established. You look at like
the Wolves were kind of that last year, Like I mean,
I don't know what you'd call them last year because
they were just so good. Cleveland's too good to qualify, Yeah,
I don't. I do see like a void. I don't know. Again, Orlando,
if they'd been healthy, they could have been next again
maybe Yeah, I don't know. Do we go too far
down if we're just saying Portland because lately.
Speaker 1: That was the team and it's do they have? But
could we us be a little early in the sense
of do they have what the Rockets did last year
in them? Where they're hovering around five hundred in them
for next season and you're feeling a lot better about
the future because now they've gone from I think people
framed their roster construction and approach as more so incoherent
and now it's transitioned to they just have so many dudes,
and so they kind of entered that phase. I think
they're the best candidate unless you want to focus on
the hot Like the Spurs just aren't a candidate now
without Wemby, Like they might be next, but it's not.
We're not going to see that for the rest of
this season, although they did beat the Suns without Wemby.
Speaker 2: So do you think the Pistons have any of that
in them? I mean, they're they're over five hundred already.
I mean that they've made the jump, like the really
big jump this year because they were they won like
five games last year and they're gonna be they're on PAI.
Maybe they win forty five, Like that's totally a possibility.
I just don't know what the They don't to me
have the feel of like, oh, they have all these
guys that could like there's more, but maybe that's unfair
because you got Holland, you got Thompson, you got I mean,
Duran is not quite at that level, and then the
Ivy injury changes it. But in the East, I think
they're the team I would look at hardest, but they're
kind of already. I mean, they're they're in the top
six team in the they're six.
Speaker 1: Right now, but I think you know they do fit
into this discussion. The reason I guess I glossed over
them is that aside from Cade, and again this might
just be unfair to Thompson, to Holland, to I mean
Ivy post injury now, but there are questions beforehand and Duran,
you don't look at this team and aside from Caid,
the forces driving everything, there's just a chance that so
many of them are ephemeral where this team isn't gonna
like the Rockets is an example. It was the question
was or are they gonna consolidate into a star this
aw season or just run everybody back and be a
lot better with the Pistons, You're not really asking about
that consolidation aspect. It's ohya, like what happens if Tim
Hardaway and or Malik Beasley leave? And what do we
feel about the j and high Ivy k kunt Of
as much as much improved as Jade and Ivy got,
Like is he the best fit like alongside Kate or
on a roster with Kate? And then Holland like, what
field do you have for him on offense and defense?
After this year and Asar Thompson based off how you
kind of want to use him on offense. Does that
complicate at all like Jay and Ivy's future here. So there,
I think the choice. They're the highest quality choice right now.
But there's just something not to say that they won't
be good next year, but there's something about what we're
watching where it feels like, well, it could just look materially
different in a way that's uncomfortable that I still think
I would gravitate towards now. If you was gonna be
better next year, the answer should probably just be the Pistons.
I think they've earned that, but Portland might be the
team that I'm kind of watching there. But maybe that's
also maybe Detroit has been too competent for too long
this season for me to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think using Houston. I don't know why we're
stuck on this, but I keep doing it too. Using
Houston as like the the point of comparison. The Blazers
feel more like that because with the Rockets it was
like there were way fewer like you're talking about like
overlap or like fit questions because like Jabbar Smith junior
defense in spacing, Shan Gun elbow hub Thompson, I don't
know whatever, and then like Jalen Green has shown major
shooting potential Intari Easton's the hustle guy, and like everybody
was like fitting into these little boxes. I think the
diversity of like talent types with a little bit like
some like backcourt skewing stuff with the Blazers is more
like that than the Pistons set up is because you
do have like our Holland and Thompson like really viable
next to Cunningham, Like is that like maybe, but like
there need to be like skill developments, whereas with the
Rockets it was just like, I don't know, there's almost
like too many like nice fits and like different combos
that make sense. It's a little it's pretty different that
way as we talk about it.
Speaker 1: My final one before we get to Wemby, so we
have the who's next? My question is who are we overlooking?
Like what is the team that could really cut I
think the case we already to mention the Pacers, the Nuggets.
It feels weird to say this. They're just quietly number
two in the West at this point and taking care
of business. But I think you could also make you know,
I feel like people are kind of writing off Memphis
in Houston in the context of the postseason, and then
my actual pick, I think you could even argue for
the Timberwolves as well. My actual pick is just should
we be paying more attention to what the Clippers are doing?
Like they've annihilated teams when Kawhi, James Harden, and Vitza
Zubats are on the floor, and now that sample size
is sub seven hundred possessions, but like Kawhi is playing
basketball again, this defense is actual hell fire. They traded
for both Dog Bogdanovich, where if he is just one,
if he's just even more available than he was in Atlanta,
he improves their team. And then is he actually if
he's actually making shots, like he's exactly the type of
player that they needed at full strength. And so I
look at them and I say, now they're coming off
a loss as I record this, of which I only
saw a little bit of, But like, why aren't we
not that we should say, oh, they're Tier one title contender.
But if Kawhi is gonna be there, which is a
big if, Like are we just kind of sleeping on
this team even though you and I have now acknowledged
that we were wrong on the Clippers to start the year.
They've had a hell of a season. The defense is incredible,
even James Harden just like being able to kind of
turn back the clock in the sense of, oh, this
is gonna be not just high usage, but obscenely difficult
high usage and like just being able to survive that
when you're looking at the games that he's played. I
think they're the team that are still being over like
they're they're in the top six in the West. And
I kind of what I said about the Warriors aside
from the Thunder, I don't know what team you sit
here and tell me like, oh, this team is guaranteed
to beat the Clippers in the best of seven series
if the Clippers are healthy.
Speaker 2: That's the thing. So they would play the Grizzlies in
a first round series if the playoffs start is today,
and I'm I mean the Grizzlies would be favored in that,
but like they're one, they're gonna be at home. But still,
like I think you're right, Like you'd have to say,
I don't know if like if Kawhi is really ready
to go, like that's it feels kind of coin flippy
to me, which is not what you'd typically say about
a six to three playoff matchup. I think I think
they are being overlooked. I continue to overlook them, and
I think the reason is just that, like there's nobody
that feels like they're doing anything but playing over their
heads or like hanging on, you know what I mean.
Like that, it's like Zoobots has been amazing and it's
just like, well, he can't be better than this, so
like what's the upside for them? And then like Kawhi
has has been on the floor, but it's just not
been quite what he was, which is should be the
expectation given his age and injury history. And Harden feels
like he's just hanging on, like just doing enough to
make that defense like hold up, like being oh, it's
sufficient on ball creator at crazy volume, like you know
what I mean. Like I just I feel like they're older,
they're we know who a lot of these guys are,
and it's hard to believe that like they can a
sustain this or be even more certainly like do better.
So I think that's why they're being overlooked. But like
they're just objectively a good team, like they're you know,
they're gonna bump up in the high forties, like win
total potentially. So yeah, I think I definitely based on
my like League Pass viewing preferences, the Clippers are very
very overlooked.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's they added Ben Simmons too. I actually think
that he could become if they decide that, hey, we
need to play him twenty minutes a game, I think
that could actually become a detriment for them. I think
that Ben Simmons still has his use, but it needs
to be viewed as spot usage. That's not guaranteed, right,
But like if o'donaic is gonna hit you up, what
is he shooting?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: He's been forty percent from three in the what is
it two or three games?
Speaker 2: He's played a lot better?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, is there what would be the other team?
Speaker 2: Though?
Speaker 1: If you had to pick one that we're overlooking? Is
it is it Indy? Is it Minnesota? Is it one
of the Houston's or Memphis?
Speaker 2: Is I think, Well, I don't know. I'm Minnesota feels
disappointed ultimately, So I don't know if that's overlooking them.
Speaker 1: I still believe in their ceiling, which is I like,
I don't know that I have like a good reason why.
I think the play of Jaden McDaniel over the past
like a couple months has helped out a ton, And
so I just look at it and say, they feel
like a team that might disappoint us in the regular season,
but like they will fuck you up in the playoffs.
Speaker 2: Well then do we have to just mention the heat
They lost four straight going into the break, So like
I maybe not, but does does the autobio where Hero
Triumvirate like get you interested?
Speaker 1: At least if Tyler Hero doesn't believe in them, then
I can't either. He's always said where he called, and
I respect to Candor. He's like, we're not contenders and
they're not. So just I think if I had to
pick another team, it'd probably be we already mentioned them,
it would be the Pacers. I just like they're fourth
in the East, and it's just sort of oh, all right,
like no that that that might actually matter with the
way that they've been able to cobble together, like Nemhard
and Nee Smith is now back and like Miles Turners
looked more like himself. Pascal Siakam's having a really good season.
I think they're another team to where Okay, like I said,
I feel better about them than the Knicks in the playoffs,
but like, let's see if some of the defensive success
they had holds up in the postseason, that would be
a question I have. But they're they're deep, they could
play a lot of different ways, and I feel like
that's been over Like if we were to pick one
from each conference to be Clippers Pacers for me, for sure.
Speaker 2: I think that's what Andrew Nimhard had the nastiest slow
step last night on a breakaway where John Moran I
think was sure that he was going to like shotgun
the block, like right through the backboard, and nim Hart
just stopped. It was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: This is It was such a throwaway play, but like
this just felt like how keyed in the Pacers are
right now? Like Miles Turner throwing a swing pass to
the corner, like after the catcherms like, this team is
that's just not like a Miles Turner thing. I was like,
this team is just so locked in right now. I'm like, yeah,
they've had some bad games. I think they went out
and got hammered by the Knicks. Immediately after I said
I feel better about them in the playoffs than the Knicks.
But that team, they they might be ready to do
some spicy things.
Speaker 2: We've seen them hit an offensive level that's like, oh God,
like this is the best offense on planet Earth for
like very long stretches and this was not that long ago.
So yeah, they the Pacers are really maybe they do
deserve to be viewed as as dangerous or more dangerous
than the Knicks. Some some to chew on.
Speaker 1: You want to talk to us, to us about that,
Victor Webbin Yama guy, Yeah, I.
Speaker 2: Mean, it's just it's a huge bummer. It sounds like
the blood cloud or the deep van thrombosis is like not,
it's it's more brandon ingram Asar Thompson than Chris Bosh.
So like severity wise and long term outlook wise, it
seems like it's not as it's still very very scary.
Obviously we're not mentioned that was likely had no vital
organs involved, so that's a plush. But he's done for
the year. I think that's just what other choice do
they have? But then that just sort of I mean,
it's difficult to think of, you know, certainly among non
playoffs tas a single player going out that just so
fundamentally overhauls like everything about the rest of the season
for his team, because now, you know, you raise all
these questions from starting with like, Okay, well do we
just tank because it'd be super awesome to have another
you know, a high lottery pick here, and and then
if the answer is yes, like well but how realistically,
like how far can we fall? Like we're not going
to get into the bottom four records? That seems impossible.
So from there it's like, well do we give Deer
and Fox every other night off? Considering like what are
we playing for? And we're not going to learn anything
about how he interfaces with Wemby, which is like the
most important thing do we mess around with like okay,
steph Castle, you are the point guard for forty minutes,
let's see what happens or you know, like that's just
you know, look, they're gonna play, so Hanna point guard,
You've got it, Like there's you know what I mean,
Like you can just is this a full on experiment
now to just see like if there's any thing that
we can learn from the balance of this season that
will inform next year's version of the team. And like
next next year's version, like what's what do you try
to salvage if you're the Spurs.
Speaker 1: I think the one thing I'm still exploring is Okay,
so what does the dynamic between Castle and Fox together
look like? Because I think you can argue Wemby's might
be one of the best players of all time if
he stays healthy, like he could be super plug and play.
And so can you work out a dynamic with whoever
you're playing in the middle with Steph Castle and Daron
Fox that you have the blueprint for what because that
was one of my bigger concerns, Like I think the
Selva all, that'll be fine, that'll work itself out. Jeremy
Sohan gets in there with awkward, but he's not someone
that there is married to at the moment as a Castle.
One of the harbingers though, will be do you just
buy out Chris Paul at this point? I mean, if
he really wants to come back, you can sign him
in free agency next season. But you have Daron Fox,
you have Steph Castle, and now you're not like you're
playing odds were kind of long to begin with. Without
Miker and Minyama, they're basically gone, he might have an
opportunity he's making in the mid level this year because
that whoever he wants, that's like someone who might want
to go to the playoffs, and that is that might
be a different discussion. I mean, that is a different
discussion where would Ris Paul actually be fun to watch
right now, but it would also be a signal of Okay,
the Spurs are really leaning into full experimentation mode. Is
there a chance though that you think they viewed it
internally as maybe we could still make up this ground
in the West and usurp you know, two of the
teams that are in front of you to get into
one of the top ten spots. I I don't.
Speaker 2: I mean, they they might believe that, but like I'm
just pulling it up now. So they're they're three back
of the tenth spot right now, like are you gonna?
And you we you know, certainly Phoenix is more incentivized
to chase that than the Spurs are, and Portland's right
there behind him. The Warriors we think will be a
lot better. Maybe Dallas falls out and yeah, I guess
there is a scenario where they could say, might as well,
let's get some of these other young guys some experience
in like meaningful games. Maybe I just don't know. That's
the it's the age old question of like, is that
is the payoff of that worth sacrificing a little bit
of draft position? Like, I don't know. I I think
to me, if it's me, I think you spend the
rest of the year doing what you were talking about, Like, Okay,
what do Fox and Castle? How do we do? Like
is this viable? And if it's not, does that mean
Fox isn't the number two we need going forward? Or
does it mean Castle and like needs to be a
different kind of player? Like, I think I think that's
the smartest way to use the rest of the season.
But san Antonio, you know who, they might really just
try to try to win games like that that might
have some value to them.
Speaker 1: And they'll probably lose games even as they're trying anyway,
it would be my Yeah, I mean they're y Aaron
Fox is now here, so it changes the complex of this.
But they're a minus nine point three per one hundred
without victory women y'ama on the court, and so even
if they you would have to you mentioned this at
the top of well, how far do you actually think
that you could bottom out because it's you're the closest
below you is four loss is worth, so it's like,
and none of them below you, except for maybe the Sixers,
are actively trying to win now, so we're talking about
maybe a spot you could fall. I would argue, I
think there's probably just more value in trying to figure
out what you have while trying to win. And if
you happen to organically win and get into playing great
and if not, like you're probably gonna just right, you're
gonna end up. But again, how it comes out of
how far down do you think they could tank? I'm
actually wondering. I have two more questions on this, and
there's one that's just more important. Does this materially change
at all how you now approach the long term future
Because there's this unsettling thing happening happening to Victor Wembenyama.
They believe it's a one off. That's important. I'm not
writing him off by any means, but like, let's even
look at it, shrink the window a little more. Does
it impact maybe how aggressive you are going to be
leading into this offseason. I don't think you're at a
point where it's oh, we regret training for dearon Fox.
We don't want to pay him now. But I think
we all kind of talked about it, right, are gonna
get this year's pick and then what's next? Is there
gonna be more of a reluctance to explore what's next
beyond what's already in place because of the victim Wembenyama issue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question. I think. I think it can be
really easy. And the Spur situation with Women Yama is
like an extreme example of this. It can be easy
to think, well, we've got forever, look at all these
all these future first we have, and we can build
however we want around Women Yama. We can be as
patient as we want to. I think so so Women
Yama missing the rest of the season. It's just a
reminder that like, nothing's promised, and if you can it's
It's kind of like how like the Pacers kind of
went for it with the Siakham trade, Like even though
Haliburton is a young cornerstone, like I think, and I
do think going out and getting Fox this year suggests
to me that the Spurs weren't looking at like a
five year time horizon. It's like, no, we'll try to
get as good as we can get within reason. So
that's that's encouraging. But yeah, you have to look look
at this as like as a signal, as a reminder
that as great as Wemby projects to be, like, shit
can happen, and there's no guarantee that his age twenty
eight season will be exactly on the trajectory you think
it will. And it's like we're not timing, you know,
our peak to twenty thirty one or whatever it is,
Like you you do just have to try to win
as best you can without going nuts and going Phoenix
suns or whatever, like you know, fairly immediately. And I
do think the Spurs we're doing that, you know, to
some extent. So yeah, if anything speed it up.
Speaker 1: Like because you think it all increase the urgency, well,
I mean, by.
Speaker 2: The way, we'll make dovetail into something else here. But
like I had, Wemby is still making All NBA First
team this year before he got hurt. So how much
better do you need your key guy to be before
you start going after it? Like he's there now, you know.
Speaker 1: I just I'm wondering if I would agree with you,
But maybe it what it does is changes nothing because
that urgency was already extant. Maybe so, but I would
almost think, are they gonna be more reticent to indulge
that urgency because now they get whatever lottery pick is
going to We're assuming this year you have Fox, you
have Castle, you have Sohand, you have Facelle. I don't
think that they're gonna try and slow it down and
start trading things like players for more picks, but I
would be curious. I won't predict. I tend to agree
with you that I think, if anything, it should speed
up the urgency within reason. But in the back of
my mind, I'm kind of wondering. It feels like there
just might be a chance that they'll take a step
back see what he looks like next year, not a
step back into let's get worse. But maybe they're not
gonna be as aggressive on the free agent market, or
maybe they would have made trades had he finished the
season healthy. One defensive Player of the Year made First
team All NBA. It would have been easier for them
internally to say, yeah, it's like we're gonna continue to
just go quote unquote all in, even though again they've
done nothing. That's like super egregious or or like mortgage
their future or to the hilt. This just adds another
layer of uncertainty. And I think, look, you go one
of two ways, Like New Orleans with Zion, Like you
could say that they never kind of they took all
these half measures trying to build a team in the
image of having him but also not having him. The
Spurs can't afford to do the same. But like, it's
also early enough to where it's well, like, let's kind
of see how this plays out before we go, because
it wouldn't this be the difference if you're worried about
his ability moving availability moving forward. It's the difference between
saying we need a second or third best player versus
we might need someone who can be our best player
when Wemby's not there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think if you're I think you sort of
owe it to the the windfall that was getting wimbin
Yama to like be as ambitious as you possibly can't. Like,
I really don't think you can say Fox's number two,
Like I think I think you need to view him
as as the third best player. So I guess, yeah,
and answer your question, I think, like the next guy
you go get I hope as the sp I hope
they're aiming at someone that's like, oh, he's good enough
to make us a playoff team without Wim Binyama. Yeah,
because if we have him and that guy, then we're
a contender like that that needs to be the level
of player they're trying to get.
Speaker 1: My guess would be that they are less likely to
go out and get that guy now though this offseason,
and they might not have been especially likely to do it.
But my guess now just based off how the Spurs
have historically operated and just based off kind of the
stakes here, because maybe this what Wemby is next season
informs what you want yourself. Because that's the other thing
is you still need to figure out that the yarn
Fox and the Wembi of it all, who's the ideal
second best archetype you're not gonna have We we have hunches,
We've talked about it already post traded line, but you're
not gonna have an ironclad idea now just because they're
not going to play together again this year. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're losing a lot of like valuable research time.
That that's in addition to all the rest of it
that that hurts a lot.
Speaker 1: Now this is I think the least important question of anything.
We ask what happens to defensive Player of the Year,
and like even the All NBA stuff kind of just
like there's shifts, like it's okay, like okay, you'll just
shift everyone up a notch and then it's the difference
like maybe Kyrie makes an All NBA TA or it's
just something what happens with Devo? Who's the favorite to
win defensive player? That we know who the betting favorite
is because it's come out, like who is your Defensive
Player of the Year pick? Is it a two man
race between Mobley and Jaron Jackson Junior? Is there anyone
else who could creep up? And finally, they just want
to reiterate how much of a bummer it is because
we assume that Wemy was gonna win multiple Defensive Players
of the Year, but like this is kind of always
I'm not saying there's something permanently wrong with him, but
this is a reminder, as you said, that anything anyone
can be fleeting, and so we just say, oh, he'll
win Defensive Player of the Year again at some point,
but like nothing is necessarily given, so just a bummer
that he seemed like he was running away with this award,
and if he wasn't running away, he at least deserved
to win it, right, And now he's not going to
be eligible to win it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think it just is Jackson or Mobley,
and it might. Honestly, I feel like Jackson has the momentum,
which is like we're talking about what voters think, so
that actually does matter, and it is a thing. It's
not like talking about momentum within a game or anything.
I think, like, don't you think that this stretch run
really will just decide it? Because now the race is
different and now voters can't I honestly like I feel
like a lot of voters would have tuned out because
it's like Wenby's got it. What are we talking about, Like,
let's worry about six man or something.
Speaker 1: I don't have to do something other than site blocks.
It's gonna be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think this stretch run is gonna
decide it. I don't know, I can't remember what jack
I know Jackson is the favorite, but like it feels
like either of those two guys, whoever you know plays better,
or whoever voters seem to think is having a bigger
impact down the stretch, like that'll that guy's gonna win it.
I don't, I don't. I would like it if there
were like another like a dark horse, that might be
someone to consider, Like, oh my god, I'm and Thompson.
There's some crazy stat that comes out that shows how
disruptive he is or that we hadn't thought about. But
you know, Chet obviously won't have enough games. He would
definitely be involved in this if he had not been
out for so much time. Is there anybody else that
we're not thinking of? Like we did all defensive teams
like not that long ago. I just can't remember anyone
else being like a serious consideration.
Speaker 1: I think BAM will have a real or could have
a real shot depending on how the heat closed. I
just think the world like that's how much I just
think of BAM defensively. And I also think there's going
to be a push because we talked about them already.
The thunder have a generationally good defense. There's going to
be an inclination to identify or someone there should win it.
And I don't agree that that's how it should work,
because if anything, that dilutes the accomplishments of the entire
committee by saying no one person was more responsible than
everybody else. And just like when you're looking at the
primary options the betting odds would have, I think it's
lou Dort Shay and j Dubb are in the top
five or seven now of defensive Player of the Year odds.
I couldn't bring myself to vote for either of Like
it's cool that the thunder are this good defensively, but
I don't think you look at any one of them
and say they've been the best most valuable defender in
the league. Yeah, do you. I mean, I think Davis
might have had a case.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, if he had not gotten hurt,
I feel and had gone on a run with Dallas,
he would have been a name to throw in there
for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, like you're not gonna get a Celtic like
Holiday is not there anymore. And that's again another committee thing.
Tatum's never gonna win Defensive Player of the Year, even
though he's so important to what they do, Like Giannis
has not been the same as he used to. Yeah,
I mean, like there's all these like ja what if
Jalen Suggs hadn't missed a bunch of time, Like maybe
maybe that would be the way you'd go. It's it's
gonna be Jackson or Mobile unless something crazy happens. I
would say, now.
Speaker 1: I actually have a bonus question for this. Do you
think not the Wemby absence specifically, but just as a
compounding catalyst, the NBA is gonna have to revisit this
eligibility thing at some point, right for awards, because we're
now getting to the point where how many what is
the pool of players from which we're going to be choosing,
Like how deep is it actually gonna run? Let's let's
look at all NBA as the example, fifteen spots and
is there gonna be there's one hundred eligible players for it,
and like of those one hundred, like twenty five may
like it just makes it almost like it dilutes maybe
that the significance of that. I'm not saying now Wemen's
gonna finish with what sub fifty appearances this year, so
he might not have made an All NBA team anyway,
but it just it does create some type of inflexibility here,
that is it at a baseline level, are we in danger?
Of kind of watering down the significance of making an
All NBA team, let's say, because of the way that
the eligibility requirements were.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, isn't it fair to say the sixty
five game threshold was, if not totally driven by at
least like partially driven by the TV deal. Like we
got to get our best players out there as often
as possible, so the TV deal is bigger. Like that's
the thing, right, Like, so deal done, and like we
can decide as a voting by if sixty two games
at level X is better than seventy one at level
why which because we've been doing it forever. Yeah, So like,
I yeah, I think the sixty five game thing feels arbitrary,
feels not totally like it's it's just it's there for
reasons other than we need it to determine who should
or shouldn't be eligible. So I think we could dispense
with it and just get back to having to make
a tough decision, you know, and set our own cutoffs,
like Okay, if you play fifty games or fewer, you
got to be like what level do you have to
be at to to deserve this over someone that played
seventy five games like that that we can do that,
I think I think we're capable of doing that apples
to slightly different sized apples comparison.
Speaker 1: And I will say just as this is not the
end all be all, but like per EPM, currently of
the top ten players in actual like as we're recording
this EPM, there's a chance that four of them won't
be eligible for awards. That's you know, I'm with you.
I think that is probably time to get back and
I agree with That's why that's been implemented. You got
anything else or are you ready to take us out
of here?
Speaker 2: I think we covered every storyline there is to cover.
Thanks everybody for listening, for watching, Please remember grate review,
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to cover it and close up always with shouts to
Frank Milatina an apologies to Jared Allen