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<v Speaker 1>You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking

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<v Speaker 1>killers in true crime history and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 1>written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK. Every

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<v Speaker 1>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 1>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your

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<v Speaker 1>host journalist and author Dan Zupanski ideming from her small

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<v Speaker 1>town Michigan roots to becoming a New York Times bestselling author,

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<v Speaker 1>and Rule's life journey is as fascinating as the cases

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<v Speaker 1>she covered. Discover how she revolutionized crime writing, influenced FBI profiling,

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<v Speaker 1>and Rule's faithful encounter with a murderer at just nine

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<v Speaker 1>years old. Go behind the scenes of Rule's most infamous cases,

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<v Speaker 1>including Ted Bundy, The Stranger Beside Me, Randy Woodfield, the

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<v Speaker 1>I five Killer, and Diane Downs small sacrifices, and explore

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<v Speaker 1>her personal insights into the murderers and Rule and Jagger

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<v Speaker 1>both studied. Featuring never before revealed true crime cases, jaw

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<v Speaker 1>dropping interviews, and the little known story of Rule's time

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<v Speaker 1>as a sex decoy for the Seattle Vice Squad. This

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<v Speaker 1>book also delves into the extraordinary three decade friendship between

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<v Speaker 1>and Rule and Jagger with exclusive letters from notorious killers

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<v Speaker 1>and an inside look at Diane Downe's chilling correspondence with

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<v Speaker 1>Manson murderer Susan Atkins and I five Killer Randy Woodfield,

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<v Speaker 1>author and Jagger and I discuss and Rule's faithful journey

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<v Speaker 1>to become the undisputed queen of true crime, her family's

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<v Speaker 1>law enforcement background that shaped her perceptions of crime and punishment,

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<v Speaker 1>and her transformative rule in true crime writing and true

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<v Speaker 1>crime history. The book that we're featuring this evening is

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<v Speaker 1>The Rule of Crime and Me, an intimate view of

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<v Speaker 1>and Rule shared by her friend of thirty years with

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<v Speaker 1>my special guest journalist and author and Jagger. Welcome to

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<v Speaker 1>the program, and thank you very much for this interview.

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<v Speaker 2>And Jagger, you know and Rule had an extraordinary childhood,

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<v Speaker 2>one that is very hard for us to comprehend. She

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<v Speaker 2>used to spend her summers, all summer and holidays at

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<v Speaker 2>her grandfather's jail in Stanton, Michigan. Now this wasn't your

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<v Speaker 2>usual type of jail. This is an old timey jail

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<v Speaker 2>where the prisoners and the family all reside under one roof.

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<v Speaker 2>It's hard for us to imagine that this could even happen,

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<v Speaker 2>But this is how it was done in the old days,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know, up until oh, probably nineteen fifties or something.

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<v Speaker 2>So she lived there with her grandfather, who she revered.

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<v Speaker 2>He was the sheriff. Her grandmother cooked the meals for

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<v Speaker 2>the prisoners and for her own family, and then Anne

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<v Speaker 2>would serve meals to the mail prisoners downstairs from a

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<v Speaker 2>little tiny slot, oh about the size a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>bigger than a mailbox slot. And they cock their heads

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<v Speaker 2>to one side and say, how are you doing, little missy,

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<v Speaker 2>And she thought they all seemed so nice, like all

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<v Speaker 2>of the rest of her family who was in law enforcement,

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<v Speaker 2>and now one of the prisoners. The females were upstairs,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's where the bedrooms were, and Anne slept in

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<v Speaker 2>one of the bedrooms, but she also liked to sleep

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<v Speaker 2>in the empty cells up there.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>But when she was getting dinner for one woman who

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<v Speaker 2>was accused of shooting her husband in cold blood because

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<v Speaker 2>he stepped out in the new Chevy truck, she bought

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<v Speaker 2>him with one of her girlfriends. Anyway, this woman's name

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<v Speaker 2>was Viola, And as she's taking the tray to Viola,

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<v Speaker 2>she gets to meet her, and Viola is crocheting quickly,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, trying to probably put boredom and worry anxiety

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<v Speaker 2>to the side, and she ends up teaching Anne how

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<v Speaker 2>to crochet between bars. Now, first of all, children would

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<v Speaker 2>never be allowed in that situation again, right, But if

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<v Speaker 2>you think about it, a crochet hook is a dangerous,

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<v Speaker 2>dangerous weapon in a cell. If you're somebody who's accused

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<v Speaker 2>of murder, you could hold someone hostage, you could kill

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<v Speaker 2>somebody else. But I think this experience with Viola, when

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<v Speaker 2>it would come out later in her life, really started

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<v Speaker 2>her fascination with personalities, aberrant personalities, and why people commit

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<v Speaker 2>the crimes. I mean, she knew at the time that

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<v Speaker 2>there must have been something very wrong with this crochet teacher,

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<v Speaker 2>but she couldn't quite put her finger on it. So Viola.

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<v Speaker 2>When I went back to Michigan to study Anne's roots

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<v Speaker 2>and her hometowns, I'm made an effort to go to

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<v Speaker 2>the Calm County Sheriff's office, which is now a big

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<v Speaker 2>new building. They don't live under one roof anymore. And

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<v Speaker 2>I went through all of the great, big old books,

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<v Speaker 2>the booking tomes that had all of the nails names

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<v Speaker 2>in it unless they were a lodger, which sometimes they

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<v Speaker 2>would just be described that way because they were from

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<v Speaker 2>outside of the county, But it was all the crimes

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<v Speaker 2>that were committed what happened to their cases. Now, searching

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<v Speaker 2>through all of those great big books, I went through

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<v Speaker 2>probably close to four thousand names, probably three hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>three thousand and six hundred something like that. Looking for Viola.

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<v Speaker 2>I wasn't able to find her, and I suspect that's

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<v Speaker 2>because she was a lodger and not listed by name.

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<v Speaker 2>But I did find another woman. Her case seemed very

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<v Speaker 2>close to Anne's, and I ferreted back into Anne's past

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<v Speaker 2>to figure out how Anne might have crossed past with

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<v Speaker 2>this woman. If she was not Viola, then she would

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<v Speaker 2>have met this woman too.

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<v Speaker 3>What was her grandfather, Chris Hansen's overall philosophy that he

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<v Speaker 3>imparted Dan and influenced Dan in her life.

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<v Speaker 2>He believed that people made mistakes and that they were

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<v Speaker 2>still entitled to being treated with dignity and respect. Now

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<v Speaker 2>that didn't mean that there weren't a lot of rules

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<v Speaker 2>around that. But Anne also was this way, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think she got that from her grandfather, and he was

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<v Speaker 2>an excellent sleuth. He could pick up a cigarette butt,

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<v Speaker 2>a piece of cloth, or a bullet, and he could

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<v Speaker 2>get confessions easily. In fact, he was known far and wide,

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<v Speaker 2>and especially in Michigan for the confessions that he garnered.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, Anne listened to a lot of confessions

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<v Speaker 2>and a lot of denials.

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<v Speaker 3>She also learned that and had a philosophy that the

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<v Speaker 3>criminals in all cases, the perpetrator would leave evidence behind

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<v Speaker 3>at the scene and also take something with them, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's an old adage that she did learn from

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<v Speaker 2>her grandfather, Chris Hansen, and you see evidence of that

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<v Speaker 2>rule in all of her books, because nothing is so

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<v Speaker 2>minute that it can't help solve the case. Now, this

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<v Speaker 2>was back in the late thirties early forties, but they

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<v Speaker 2>were pretty smart back then too, without the advent of

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<v Speaker 2>DNA and surveillance cameras and cell phones.

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<v Speaker 3>You're right that Anne came to this law enforcement or

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<v Speaker 3>this bug honestly with her grandmother being involved with the

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<v Speaker 3>grandfather at the jail, but also her aunt Freda married

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<v Speaker 3>under sheriff Elton Samson later and they had their own

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<v Speaker 3>home jail as well. Uncle Carl was a medical examiner

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<v Speaker 3>and at Millie worked at juvenile court and her cousin

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<v Speaker 3>Bruce was a prosecuting attorney, and she'd kept a copy

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<v Speaker 3>of her grandpa father's nineteen forties forensic science book as

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<v Speaker 3>a lifelong treasure, even though, as we mentioned, some of

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<v Speaker 3>those principles were outdated. She really had a dream job

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<v Speaker 3>in mind. Tell us what she did in pursuit of

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<v Speaker 3>that dream job.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, she was always a fabulous writer, but she never

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to be a writer. She wanted to be a policewoman. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>her father was an athletic coach and an athletic director,

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<v Speaker 2>and there were no females in that profession either. But

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<v Speaker 2>Anne always wanted to be a policewoman, and she became

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<v Speaker 2>one in Seattle. Now, there's a funny, kind of in

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<v Speaker 2>a sad way story about that. When she got on

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<v Speaker 2>with the Seattle Police Department, they once asked her to

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<v Speaker 2>be a sex decoy in Pioneer Square to catch a flasher. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>women back then had to wear three inch heels, they

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<v Speaker 2>had to wear skirts, and it was a cold night.

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<v Speaker 2>She had on a coat, and the cops are in

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<v Speaker 2>cars all watching her from outside the park. They've got

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<v Speaker 2>their police radios, they've got their handcuffs, they've got their

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<v Speaker 2>guns and all she has is her purse and she's

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<v Speaker 2>walking along trying to find a flasher. Now, she didn't

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<v Speaker 2>find a flasher that day. They didn't rest anybody. But

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<v Speaker 2>she said to me much later, when she was almost eighty,

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<v Speaker 2>and here I was a virgin, and they send me

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<v Speaker 2>out as a sex decoy, you know, to find this guy.

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<v Speaker 2>So she was relieved it was over. And oh, she

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<v Speaker 2>would laugh hysterically. She had this wonderful way of bobbing

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<v Speaker 2>her shoulders up and down when she thought something was funny.

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<v Speaker 2>And we howled about that. But I was kind of

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<v Speaker 2>gobsmacked at the idea of her being out there and

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<v Speaker 2>doing that. Now a little bit later, of course, she

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<v Speaker 2>had to pass the written test, and that was a cinch,

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<v Speaker 2>but she had to take an eye test. And this

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<v Speaker 2>was an old, antiquated belief system in police shops all

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<v Speaker 2>over the nation that you had to have very good

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<v Speaker 2>eyesight couldn't wear glasses. The belief was that if a

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<v Speaker 2>perpetrator knocked your glasses off, you might not be able

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<v Speaker 2>to defend yourself or perhaps your partner. So Anne actually

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<v Speaker 2>was legally blind, and she wore glasses for the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of her life. But she failed that eye test, and

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<v Speaker 2>it crushed her all her life. This is all she

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<v Speaker 2>had ever wanted to do, and now she wouldn't be

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<v Speaker 2>able to do it. She did meet lots of contacts

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<v Speaker 2>in the sheriff's departments and with all of the police

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<v Speaker 2>departments around Seattle, and they became a lot of her

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<v Speaker 2>sources and inspirations for her book. You know, it didn't

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<v Speaker 2>all go for not It did pay off, but just

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<v Speaker 2>not in the way that she had expected it to.

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<v Speaker 2>And she would always try to avoid the police department

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<v Speaker 2>because she would cry. It was just too painful every

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<v Speaker 2>time she saw it.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear

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<v Speaker 3>these messages, now, you write. In fall of nineteen fifty

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<v Speaker 3>and decides to switch schools and move to Seattle, and

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<v Speaker 3>she majored in creative writing and start leaning hard, You

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<v Speaker 3>write into a career in criminal justice. But she was

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<v Speaker 3>also taking criminology courses as well. She minored in criminology, psychology,

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<v Speaker 3>and penealogy, and she eventually earned an Associate of Arts degree,

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<v Speaker 3>And you write it. She loved criminology classes and studying

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<v Speaker 3>the causes of crime, prevention, statistics, and behavior.

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<v Speaker 2>She had such a love for learning, and through those

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<v Speaker 2>classes and going to autopsies and talking to criminologists, she

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<v Speaker 2>was able to be so knowledgeable about all of those facts.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, with the study of prison reform, she

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<v Speaker 2>witnessed that in her childhood. So I mean the adberant

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<v Speaker 2>psychology classes. I mean, if you just think off the

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<v Speaker 2>top of your head about some of the awful criminals

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<v Speaker 2>that she wrote about, you know they would be on

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<v Speaker 2>the front page of her criminology classes.

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<v Speaker 3>You write that her writing starts, she has a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of rejections, but eventually is writing two articles a week

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<v Speaker 3>for detective magazines that became very, very popular at that time.

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<v Speaker 3>Tell us about some of her early writing practices and

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<v Speaker 3>the circumstances of which she was writing. You say that

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<v Speaker 3>she was raising children while she was writing. Tell us

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<v Speaker 3>how she juggles all of these duties and still ends

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<v Speaker 3>up writing all of this material.

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<v Speaker 2>She was prolific. Now when she wrote for True Detective

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<v Speaker 2>and some of those other magazines, these had to be

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<v Speaker 2>based on had to be true stories. Some of the

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<v Speaker 2>names could be changed and things like that, but they

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<v Speaker 2>had to be true stories. That also attributed to her

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<v Speaker 2>vast knowledge of criminal and victim behavior as she's writing

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<v Speaker 2>for these detective magazines which line the bookshelf in her office.

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<v Speaker 2>She was able to then get a toe hold in

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<v Speaker 2>writing because she was so prolific. These were huge articles,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes for pages at a time in these magazines. She

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<v Speaker 2>would be able to write with her tremendous powers of concentration.

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<v Speaker 2>She could write with four kids running around and monkeying around.

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<v Speaker 2>She said that as long as they didn't land on

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<v Speaker 2>the typewriter, she was able to write. Now her first

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<v Speaker 2>seven years, I think the first year she might have

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<v Speaker 2>made like one hundred dollars, and by year seven she

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<v Speaker 2>had only made about one thousand dollars. But she was

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<v Speaker 2>on her way. When she and her husband got divorced

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<v Speaker 2>and she was a single mother, she was able to

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<v Speaker 2>keep on writing and ended up writing full time in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty nine. So she had found her niche in

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<v Speaker 2>that time period.

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<v Speaker 3>You're right that taboo subjects for her at that time were,

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<v Speaker 3>and for her entire career were torture, motorcycle clubs, mob crime, families,

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<v Speaker 3>and drug rings.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. She thought that torture was abhorrent and didn't want

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<v Speaker 2>to have anything to do with it. That's why you

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<v Speaker 2>never see any bloody pictures in her books, as you

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<v Speaker 2>do in some others. She thought the motorcycle clubs were

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<v Speaker 2>too dangerous and too prolific, and I think we all

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<v Speaker 2>know the problems with trying to do stories about the mafia,

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<v Speaker 2>so she chose wisely.

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<v Speaker 3>You're right though, that she was heading into the eighties

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<v Speaker 3>and began cranking out her hits full time author, writing

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<v Speaker 3>about a bevy of murders, among them Lust Killer nineteen

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<v Speaker 3>eighty one about Jerry Brutos, want ad Killer nineteen eighty

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<v Speaker 3>three about Harvey Carigan, and the I five Killer in

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<v Speaker 3>nineteen eighty four about Randy Woodfield.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, those books were originally written under the name Andy Stack,

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<v Speaker 2>which was her pseudonym for the True True Detect Disease

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<v Speaker 2>that she worked for, and then they were later released

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<v Speaker 2>under her own name. And at the same time she

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<v Speaker 2>was doing this, she was writing Stranger Beside Me about

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<v Speaker 2>Ted Bundy, and then she found out about the Diane

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<v Speaker 2>Downs murder case, and she was at the trial for

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<v Speaker 2>the book Small Sacrifices.

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<v Speaker 3>You write about a personal tragedy in Anne's life that

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<v Speaker 3>led her to volunteer at this Seattle suicide hotline and

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<v Speaker 3>ended up working alongside Ted Bundy. Tell us what happens

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<v Speaker 3>with her brother and the meeting and encounter with Ted

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<v Speaker 3>Bundy working with him.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, her brother Dawn, who she loved so much, was

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<v Speaker 2>going to Stanford and he was a pre med student

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<v Speaker 2>headed to Harvard. Well, apparently life got to be too

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<v Speaker 2>much for him and he committed suicide. Now Anne could

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<v Speaker 2>barely talk about this throughout her whole her whole life.

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<v Speaker 2>She was so devastated by the loss, and she wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to turn that loss into something productive, something positive. So

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<v Speaker 2>she decided to volunteer at the Seattle Suicide Hotline. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's there she met this young man who was a

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<v Speaker 2>work study student named Ted Bundy, and they worked overnight

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<v Speaker 2>together trying to save lives and she would be Anne

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<v Speaker 2>would be talking to them, and he would be trying

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<v Speaker 2>to trace the calls or find out where the people

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<v Speaker 2>who were contemplating suicide were living so that he could

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<v Speaker 2>send ambulances there or police there to demonstrate that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>tomorrow things may get better, Please don't do this now.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was her way of, I think, honoring her brother.

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<v Speaker 2>But little did she know that a man that she

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<v Speaker 2>had a book contract to write about, who was a

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<v Speaker 2>serial killer, going you know, a long eye five and

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<v Speaker 2>leaving the women's bodies in the woods. She had a

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<v Speaker 2>contract to write about this man, but they didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>who he was. It wasn't until she left the suicide

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<v Speaker 2>hotline that she found out information that led her to

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<v Speaker 2>report Ted Bundy twice to the Seattle detectives. And he

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<v Speaker 2>turned out to be not only what had been her friend,

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<v Speaker 2>but he was he was the killer. He's the serial killer.

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<v Speaker 2>Very hard to reconcile those two faces in one person,

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<v Speaker 2>and she detailed it so beautifully and masterfully in The

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<v Speaker 2>Stranger Beside Me.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, you say that she was in correspondence with Ted,

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<v Speaker 3>because it wasn't immediate at all that she was convinced

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<v Speaker 3>that he was the killer. Again, just the demonstration of

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<v Speaker 3>his charm, right.

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<v Speaker 2>She at first, of course, believed in what the detectives

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<v Speaker 2>were telling her. But he was writing her and saying,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, well, we'll get together again sometime, and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what they're saying isn't true. And she was skeptical for sure,

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<v Speaker 2>even more than skeptical, but until she started hearing details

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00:21:47.319 --> 00:21:51.359
<v Speaker 2>about what he had done and he was in Florida,

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<v Speaker 2>he had escaped and there were more murders in Florida.

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<v Speaker 2>Everywhere that Ted went, a body was sure to be murdered,

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<v Speaker 2>so she quit corresponding with him. But it was always

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<v Speaker 2>jarring throughout her life that this same man who only

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00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:18.480
<v Speaker 2>showed her kindness had this horrible, horrible mask that he

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<v Speaker 2>wore as a vicious killer. Apparently he couldn't attack somebody

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<v Speaker 2>and kill them if he had more than about a

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<v Speaker 2>five minute conversation with him, because I guess he started

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<v Speaker 2>seeing them as people, And inevitably, in these people's lives

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00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:38.720
<v Speaker 2>we always find out they had girlfriends or wives and

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<v Speaker 2>children and they blend in with the rest of us.

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<v Speaker 2>I personally think that that's the mask they wear and

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<v Speaker 2>who they really are is that, you know, soulless killer, Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>that repeatedly kills.

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<v Speaker 3>Absolutely this case, Stranger Beside Me her book Ted Bundy

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00:23:03.279 --> 00:23:08.559
<v Speaker 3>and his Murderous Ways and his Escapes really catapulted, and

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00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:15.480
<v Speaker 3>along with brilliant writing research and capturing the essence of

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00:23:16.480 --> 00:23:18.839
<v Speaker 3>just happened to m know this person? And she was

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00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:23.039
<v Speaker 3>working alongside getting the contract and then having to write

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00:23:23.079 --> 00:23:27.160
<v Speaker 3>the book about this person she thought was her friend. Stranger,

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<v Speaker 3>The Stranger beside Me catapulted her to incredible international fame,

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00:23:31.640 --> 00:23:32.039
<v Speaker 3>didn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>Interestingly enough, Anne always said that it wasn't a best

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00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:40.880
<v Speaker 2>seller right away. Well, of course it was in Seattle,

315
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:46.200
<v Speaker 2>her hometown, but it had legs, which we say in

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00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:50.359
<v Speaker 2>the industry to mean it just kept growing and growing

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00:23:50.640 --> 00:23:55.759
<v Speaker 2>and growing until it was an international sensation. And I

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00:23:55.799 --> 00:24:00.680
<v Speaker 2>think you're right attributing it to her meticulous research skills,

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00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:04.240
<v Speaker 2>the fact that they knew each other and had spent

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<v Speaker 2>so much time together at the suicide hotline, and she

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00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:11.160
<v Speaker 2>knew the inner workings of his life, or at least

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00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:15.839
<v Speaker 2>she thought she did, and then she revealed a whole new,

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00:24:16.119 --> 00:24:17.400
<v Speaker 2>horrific person.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages.

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<v Speaker 3>Now you write about your intersection with the legendary and Rule.

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<v Speaker 3>You write that you hadn't heard of Van Rule in

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<v Speaker 3>May nineteen eighty three. The Stranger Beside Me was her

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00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:40.880
<v Speaker 3>first book that you were aware of. Nobody had heard

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00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:45.039
<v Speaker 3>of Elizabeth dan Downs until after the morning and after

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00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:50.039
<v Speaker 3>the hillacious crime on May nineteenth. You heard the news

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<v Speaker 3>of the shooting, and right away you had questions. Tell

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00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:59.240
<v Speaker 3>us about hearing the news and the questions you instinctively

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00:24:59.359 --> 00:25:00.400
<v Speaker 3>and initially.

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<v Speaker 2>The woman, Elizabeth Diane Down's, twenty eight year old mother

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00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:10.640
<v Speaker 2>of three, was out on a sightseeing trip in Springfield, Oregon,

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<v Speaker 2>outside Eugene with her three children, and she said a

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00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:17.319
<v Speaker 2>man flagged her down in the middle of the road,

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00:25:17.920 --> 00:25:21.039
<v Speaker 2>and for some reason, with kids in the car, after dark,

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<v Speaker 2>she stopped and she said, this bushy haired stranger shot

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<v Speaker 2>her children, murdered one and critically wounded and paralyzed another.

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00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:40.359
<v Speaker 2>And right away I was thinking, something is wrong. Here

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00:25:40.480 --> 00:25:44.960
<v Speaker 2>is this domestic violence? What is the story about this?

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<v Speaker 2>And I was bound and determined to make that story

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<v Speaker 2>my own and to figure out the whys. And Anne

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00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:56.440
<v Speaker 2>and I had that in common, she called I did

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00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:01.559
<v Speaker 2>a documentary on Elizabeth Diane Downs, and Anne used it,

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00:26:01.759 --> 00:26:05.480
<v Speaker 2>she said, in her writing almost every day. She called

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00:26:05.519 --> 00:26:09.519
<v Speaker 2>it the seminal personality profile of a murderous mom. So

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00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:16.119
<v Speaker 2>that's high praise. But the interview in itself was so startling.

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<v Speaker 3>You're right that the interview was was startling. But let's

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00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.160
<v Speaker 3>get you. You write about how you met and rule

352
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:30.480
<v Speaker 3>in the first place, before this trial, and that's where

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00:26:30.519 --> 00:26:34.400
<v Speaker 3>you met and rule, But before that, you decided to

354
00:26:34.720 --> 00:26:38.599
<v Speaker 3>own this story about Diane Downs. These questions were gnawing

355
00:26:38.640 --> 00:26:42.839
<v Speaker 3>at your mind. Tell us where you were professionally in

356
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:44.680
<v Speaker 3>your own career at that time.

357
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<v Speaker 2>So I'm headed for a lifetime career in journalism, and

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00:26:53.039 --> 00:26:57.720
<v Speaker 2>Diane Downs, you know, is obviously going to be headed

359
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:02.319
<v Speaker 2>to the slammer. And I had to do everything I

360
00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:06.519
<v Speaker 2>could to be able to win that story because it

361
00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:10.759
<v Speaker 2>was assigned to another reporter, and I just kept on

362
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:14.279
<v Speaker 2>pursuing it and found out that Christy, the eldest child

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00:27:14.319 --> 00:27:17.279
<v Speaker 2>who was shot in the chest, had had a blood

364
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:21.400
<v Speaker 2>transfusion at the hospital to save her life, but unfortunately

365
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.039
<v Speaker 2>it was the wrong blood type and so she had

366
00:27:24.079 --> 00:27:28.279
<v Speaker 2>had a stroke and that set her back a long way. Now,

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00:27:28.279 --> 00:27:32.519
<v Speaker 2>of course, prosecutors in the crime were hoping that they

368
00:27:32.559 --> 00:27:35.839
<v Speaker 2>would be able to bring her in as a witness

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00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:40.599
<v Speaker 2>to these shootings. Her brother, Danny, was only four years old,

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00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:44.559
<v Speaker 2>so they knew that he probably couldn't remember very much.

371
00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:49.920
<v Speaker 2>So every piece of the puzzle that I found out,

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00:27:49.960 --> 00:27:53.359
<v Speaker 2>I handed into the assignment desk and it went over

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00:27:53.400 --> 00:27:56.079
<v Speaker 2>to the other reporter, and then finally the other reporter

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00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:59.119
<v Speaker 2>bowed out, saying that he wanted to focus on his beat.

375
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:04.920
<v Speaker 2>It became mine I also was able to go and

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00:28:05.160 --> 00:28:10.039
<v Speaker 2>interview Diane the first time that her parents held a

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00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:15.079
<v Speaker 2>media conference at their home in Springfield. She had, you know,

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00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:19.200
<v Speaker 2>a cast on her arm because she shot herself in

379
00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:22.759
<v Speaker 2>her arm. She's right handed and she was shot in

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00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:27.279
<v Speaker 2>her left fore arm. And right away, you know, we

381
00:28:27.279 --> 00:28:32.440
<v Speaker 2>were hearing I was hearing background top talk from the

382
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:38.480
<v Speaker 2>police officers and detectives that they weren't believing that a

383
00:28:38.519 --> 00:28:43.319
<v Speaker 2>shaggy haired stranger flagged her down. I mean, why not

384
00:28:43.559 --> 00:28:47.160
<v Speaker 2>as a mother, you know, fight like heck to the

385
00:28:47.359 --> 00:28:51.480
<v Speaker 2>to the death to save your children, or get everybody

386
00:28:51.480 --> 00:28:53.640
<v Speaker 2>out of the car and let him have your car

387
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:58.200
<v Speaker 2>if he wants. So nothing was really adding up, and

388
00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:03.000
<v Speaker 2>when we went to the media conference, all the cameras

389
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:08.400
<v Speaker 2>are turning and people are taking notes, and I asked her,

390
00:29:08.640 --> 00:29:13.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, Diane, police are doubting your story. You know,

391
00:29:13.559 --> 00:29:18.319
<v Speaker 2>they think that you're the shooter. She was, you know,

392
00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:23.319
<v Speaker 2>so vociferously denying it thout doing doth protest too much.

393
00:29:24.039 --> 00:29:28.240
<v Speaker 2>That was the get of the day. But then I

394
00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:31.400
<v Speaker 2>asked her because she mentioned that there was a towel

395
00:29:31.559 --> 00:29:35.000
<v Speaker 2>that was in the trunk, and for some reason, this

396
00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:39.039
<v Speaker 2>really fascinated me. I'm like, well, why would she be

397
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:44.519
<v Speaker 2>going to the trunk. Well, the prosecutors believe that that's

398
00:29:44.519 --> 00:29:48.079
<v Speaker 2>where the gun was too. And she had folded this towel,

399
00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:53.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, like a tied die, so that she could

400
00:29:53.200 --> 00:29:59.119
<v Speaker 2>wrap it around her arm to stop the bleeding. And

401
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:03.279
<v Speaker 2>for me, I was thinking, I wouldn't be using that

402
00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:07.319
<v Speaker 2>on myself. I would be ripping that apart and trying

403
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:12.200
<v Speaker 2>to save my children. Turns out, you know, she really

404
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.160
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to save her children, and she drove very

405
00:30:15.200 --> 00:30:18.680
<v Speaker 2>slowly to the hospital, and people saw her. They were

406
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.880
<v Speaker 2>behind her in the car, hoping that they would die

407
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:27.880
<v Speaker 2>along the way. Cheryl was already dead. Christy, of course,

408
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:31.880
<v Speaker 2>was critically wounded, and Danny has been paralyzed ever since.

409
00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:39.000
<v Speaker 3>Please explain how, despite your challenging questions at the press

410
00:30:39.039 --> 00:30:44.440
<v Speaker 3>conference that they call that the family home, how do

411
00:30:44.480 --> 00:30:50.160
<v Speaker 3>you exactly get her to agree to an interview that

412
00:30:50.240 --> 00:30:56.240
<v Speaker 3>you are going to film without her attorney. Please tell us, mastervely,

413
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.480
<v Speaker 3>how you convinced her.

414
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:04.200
<v Speaker 2>Well, I forgot one piece of that media press conference,

415
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:07.160
<v Speaker 2>and that was when I asked her about the towel.

416
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:11.519
<v Speaker 2>Her father got so red in the face and lashed

417
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:13.799
<v Speaker 2>out at me and saying, you're all going to have

418
00:31:13.880 --> 00:31:16.319
<v Speaker 2>to leave. Come on, get your stuff, let's go out.

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00:31:17.440 --> 00:31:21.599
<v Speaker 2>And I very quietly turned my head toward him and

420
00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:27.160
<v Speaker 2>I said, mister Frederickson, that's Diane's maiden name. These are

421
00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:31.519
<v Speaker 2>all questions that the police are asking and viewers will

422
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:35.480
<v Speaker 2>be wanting to know. He calmed down. He was a

423
00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:40.000
<v Speaker 2>real hothead. He calmed down, and he allowed us to continue.

424
00:31:40.519 --> 00:31:44.079
<v Speaker 2>After that, I kind of stayed away from her. Other

425
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:49.079
<v Speaker 2>stations would be doing more sympathetic or empathetic stories about her,

426
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:52.079
<v Speaker 2>because after all, she had lost her children, she hadn't

427
00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:56.160
<v Speaker 2>been arrested, she had been wounded, she was an alleged

428
00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:03.720
<v Speaker 2>victim herself. And then I continued to cull information from

429
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:07.920
<v Speaker 2>all of my sources, waiting to find out as much

430
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:12.480
<v Speaker 2>as I could. Then, months after that press conference, I

431
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:16.200
<v Speaker 2>called her up and I said, Hi, you know this

432
00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:19.720
<v Speaker 2>is and my name was Bradley. Then that's my maiden name.

433
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:22.319
<v Speaker 2>I said, this is Anne Bradley, and I met you

434
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:27.319
<v Speaker 2>at your father's your family press conference, and I'd like

435
00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:31.640
<v Speaker 2>to do a sit down interview with you. And I said,

436
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:34.880
<v Speaker 2>you can bring your attorney if you'd like, but how

437
00:32:34.920 --> 00:32:38.000
<v Speaker 2>about if you come in on Saturday or Sunday this weekend,

438
00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:41.160
<v Speaker 2>and she agreed. Now I was on pins and needles

439
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:43.160
<v Speaker 2>for a couple of days, wondering is she going to

440
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:45.519
<v Speaker 2>bring her attorney? Is she not going to bring her attorney.

441
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:50.279
<v Speaker 2>I was so relieved when the producer who went to

442
00:32:50.279 --> 00:32:55.960
<v Speaker 2>greet her at the front door saw her there all alone. Now,

443
00:32:56.000 --> 00:33:01.880
<v Speaker 2>this producer, you know, they're not am to having feelings

444
00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:05.759
<v Speaker 2>and realizing that this could be a cold blooded killer.

445
00:33:06.359 --> 00:33:09.039
<v Speaker 2>So the producer I had asked her, would you take

446
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:13.440
<v Speaker 2>Diane in the newsroom until the photographer and I get

447
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:16.880
<v Speaker 2>completely set up, because I just want to go and

448
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:19.359
<v Speaker 2>go in there and sit down and do it. And

449
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.440
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want her asking me any questions about what

450
00:33:22.599 --> 00:33:27.839
<v Speaker 2>I would be asking her. And the producer said, it

451
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:32.880
<v Speaker 2>was like nothing she had ever experienced here, she could

452
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:36.279
<v Speaker 2>be sitting in the same room with a baby killer.

453
00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:38.359
<v Speaker 2>Made her want to run out of the room like

454
00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:41.920
<v Speaker 2>her hair was on fire. Because there's a real stagnant

455
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:47.519
<v Speaker 2>magnetic pull about Diane that you realize once you're in

456
00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:53.200
<v Speaker 2>her presence. So took her back to the back room,

457
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:56.119
<v Speaker 2>the back conference room. We went back to the back

458
00:33:56.119 --> 00:34:03.759
<v Speaker 2>conference room, and thus started this rangest most compelling, heart wrenching,

459
00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:10.280
<v Speaker 2>horrible interview that I had done up until that time.

460
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:19.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, never had people seen a mother talk so

461
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:23.880
<v Speaker 2>openly about the shootings and about all of the blood

462
00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:35.320
<v Speaker 2>and seeing her children lying there dying. So it was extraordinary.

463
00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:38.119
<v Speaker 2>And so let me play you this piece of sound

464
00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:42.119
<v Speaker 2>from that interview that day, as.

465
00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:44.760
<v Speaker 4>You sure we're lucky, Well, I don't feel very lucky.

466
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:48.519
<v Speaker 4>I couldn't tell my damn shoes about two months. It

467
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:51.360
<v Speaker 4>is very painfully, still painful. I have a steel plate

468
00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:53.079
<v Speaker 4>on my arm. I will for a year and a half.

469
00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:56.320
<v Speaker 4>The star is going to be there forever. I'm going

470
00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:58.039
<v Speaker 4>to remember that night for the rest of my life,

471
00:34:58.039 --> 00:34:59.559
<v Speaker 4>whether I want to or not. I don't think I

472
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:02.920
<v Speaker 4>was very lucky. I think my kids were lucky. If

473
00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:04.719
<v Speaker 4>I had been shot the way they were, we all

474
00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:05.440
<v Speaker 4>would have died.

475
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:08.960
<v Speaker 2>Now, who says something like that.

476
00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:18.880
<v Speaker 3>Right, right, very very strange responses throughout this just the

477
00:35:18.920 --> 00:35:23.280
<v Speaker 3>way she talks about how, of course professing her innocence.

478
00:35:23.400 --> 00:35:27.159
<v Speaker 3>Tell us how she professes her innocence in these conversations.

479
00:35:28.719 --> 00:35:31.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, she talks about this man that she didn't know

480
00:35:31.519 --> 00:35:35.559
<v Speaker 2>who he was, that he flagged them down, and so

481
00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:38.960
<v Speaker 2>she would go through that. I also asked her because

482
00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:42.079
<v Speaker 2>I was hearing that she had changed her story, saying

483
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:47.079
<v Speaker 2>it was two men. And then she had a meeting

484
00:35:47.159 --> 00:35:51.639
<v Speaker 2>with the detective Doug Welch, and she said she knew

485
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:54.760
<v Speaker 2>the man and if they weren't going to find him,

486
00:35:55.079 --> 00:35:58.000
<v Speaker 2>f you and she'd go out and find them herself.

487
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:02.760
<v Speaker 2>But being in that interview, and I write about this

488
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:07.480
<v Speaker 2>in the book because I hadn't gone back and looked

489
00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:12.000
<v Speaker 2>at that whole documentary again for forty years, because I

490
00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:14.920
<v Speaker 2>knew its effect on me. At the time, I looked

491
00:36:14.960 --> 00:36:19.800
<v Speaker 2>at it more intellectually, more analytically, trying to put the

492
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:24.639
<v Speaker 2>bits and pieces together. But now in writing the book,

493
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:29.480
<v Speaker 2>I was able to access more of my feelings. And

494
00:36:31.320 --> 00:36:35.440
<v Speaker 2>it was like being in a river where the top

495
00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:40.480
<v Speaker 2>of the river is very placid, but underneath there's a

496
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:47.599
<v Speaker 2>dark evil undertow. And I would start the video and

497
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:50.920
<v Speaker 2>then I would have to stop it, and I'd realize

498
00:36:51.199 --> 00:36:54.440
<v Speaker 2>that my hand was in front of my mouth, I

499
00:36:54.519 --> 00:37:00.320
<v Speaker 2>guess trying to protect myself from her words. Again, being

500
00:37:00.360 --> 00:37:05.760
<v Speaker 2>in this river and having almost like a read, and

501
00:37:05.800 --> 00:37:09.679
<v Speaker 2>you're breathing through the read so that nobody will know

502
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:16.559
<v Speaker 2>or discover you and you won't let on how frightening

503
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:20.599
<v Speaker 2>her words are. And so I would come up for air,

504
00:37:21.480 --> 00:37:24.880
<v Speaker 2>and then i'd go back at it, and as I

505
00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:28.599
<v Speaker 2>got to different parts, I would have sort of flashbacks.

506
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:32.679
<v Speaker 2>I'd see in my head Christy on the stand talking

507
00:37:32.679 --> 00:37:35.199
<v Speaker 2>about there was no one else on that lonely road

508
00:37:35.280 --> 00:37:39.719
<v Speaker 2>and it was her mother. And Diane claimed that the

509
00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:46.000
<v Speaker 2>car her Nissan was actually running, was turned on when

510
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:50.880
<v Speaker 2>the kids were shot. Well, prosecutors found out that can't

511
00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:56.519
<v Speaker 2>be true because the tape deck would not play music

512
00:37:57.000 --> 00:37:59.639
<v Speaker 2>when the car is off. And she claims to have

513
00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:05.280
<v Speaker 2>the he's outside her car and feigning throwing them to

514
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:11.519
<v Speaker 2>divert this assailant. So i'd see that in my head,

515
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:19.039
<v Speaker 2>you know, after seeing the blood evidence. It just all

516
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:23.079
<v Speaker 2>would play back in my mind, and I'd find out, oh,

517
00:38:23.079 --> 00:38:25.440
<v Speaker 2>my gosh, I'm supposed to be writing this book, I'm

518
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:29.000
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be looking at this, and I would press

519
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.800
<v Speaker 2>play again and try to make it a short way

520
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:36.719
<v Speaker 2>through all again. I don't know whether I was more

521
00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:41.239
<v Speaker 2>shocked back forty years ago or when I looked at

522
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:45.239
<v Speaker 2>it again. I always thought it was a good piece

523
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:48.920
<v Speaker 2>of journalism, but I didn't think it would hold up

524
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:54.039
<v Speaker 2>as well as it has forty years later. And here's

525
00:38:54.079 --> 00:38:57.639
<v Speaker 2>something that she had to say during the interview about

526
00:38:57.760 --> 00:39:01.519
<v Speaker 2>the blood evidence in the case, which I had discovered,

527
00:39:01.519 --> 00:39:03.880
<v Speaker 2>that there was blood on the outside of the car,

528
00:39:04.519 --> 00:39:08.360
<v Speaker 2>blood spatter, you know, high velocity blood spatter.

529
00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:12.719
<v Speaker 4>The police found blood on the outside of the car,

530
00:39:13.400 --> 00:39:13.960
<v Speaker 4>but one of.

531
00:39:13.960 --> 00:39:16.480
<v Speaker 2>The children, perhaps Cheryl, have fallen out of the car

532
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:17.719
<v Speaker 2>on the passenger side.

533
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:21.039
<v Speaker 4>DA has come up with this idea that somebody was

534
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:23.719
<v Speaker 4>shot on the outside of the car on the passenger

535
00:39:23.800 --> 00:39:26.280
<v Speaker 4>side a new car. I was on the driver's side

536
00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:28.119
<v Speaker 4>of the car when I was shot, and.

537
00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:30.599
<v Speaker 2>That's why it was so im going.

538
00:39:30.760 --> 00:39:33.679
<v Speaker 4>It was planted, and it just seemed I mean, it

539
00:39:33.719 --> 00:39:37.079
<v Speaker 4>can't be real because they talk about blood spatter, and

540
00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:40.199
<v Speaker 4>when they say spatter, I think something being shot out

541
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.039
<v Speaker 4>like the blood spatter in the car. You know, it

542
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:46.400
<v Speaker 4>was so uniform, it was so regular samsi s droplet

543
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:48.119
<v Speaker 4>spread evenly in a pattern.

544
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:49.239
<v Speaker 3>And when they.

545
00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:52.400
<v Speaker 4>Say spatter, that's what I thought of. And we saw

546
00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:57.760
<v Speaker 4>pictures of this so called spatter. It's drops. When they

547
00:39:57.760 --> 00:40:00.760
<v Speaker 4>took the kids, they took christ and share the driver's

548
00:40:00.760 --> 00:40:04.239
<v Speaker 4>side of the car, and it's blood droplets it's when

549
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:07.000
<v Speaker 4>they picked the kids up and carry them over the threshold.

550
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:09.079
<v Speaker 4>There is blood dripping down the side of the car.

551
00:40:10.519 --> 00:40:14.480
<v Speaker 2>Now here's what's wrong with her story. When you cut

552
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:18.400
<v Speaker 2>your finger, it drips blood, all right, and that's what

553
00:40:18.440 --> 00:40:22.559
<v Speaker 2>she's talking about. But on the threshold of the car

554
00:40:22.719 --> 00:40:25.760
<v Speaker 2>where you get in and end out of the car,

555
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:29.480
<v Speaker 2>down on the what they call the rocker panel, and

556
00:40:29.679 --> 00:40:34.159
<v Speaker 2>on the door jam, there was high velocity blood spatter,

557
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:38.239
<v Speaker 2>which travels at an enormous speed and can be only

558
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:42.719
<v Speaker 2>the size of a pinprick, but it does tell the

559
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:49.239
<v Speaker 2>distance and the location of the shooter. So Diane said

560
00:40:49.400 --> 00:40:54.440
<v Speaker 2>that everybody the shooter, and she was outside the car

561
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:57.559
<v Speaker 2>when the kids were shot. But this proved that she

562
00:40:57.760 --> 00:41:01.320
<v Speaker 2>had to kneel all the way in. And because Cheryl,

563
00:41:01.480 --> 00:41:07.679
<v Speaker 2>this poor child, after being shot once, somehow got a

564
00:41:07.679 --> 00:41:11.280
<v Speaker 2>hold of the door and got it to open, and

565
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Diane shot her again as she fell out of the car,

566
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:19.400
<v Speaker 2>reaching kneeling on the driver's seat and reaching over the

567
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:23.400
<v Speaker 2>passenger side to get her. Now, when I was writing,

568
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:27.079
<v Speaker 2>I was considering, you know, I'm not sure that Diane

569
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:30.719
<v Speaker 2>didn't just go around the car and pick her up

570
00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:33.159
<v Speaker 2>and throw her on the seat and cover her with

571
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:37.000
<v Speaker 2>her postal sweater. She was a still working as a

572
00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:43.079
<v Speaker 2>mail delivery deliverer, and she didn't want to see Christy anymore.

573
00:41:43.679 --> 00:41:46.559
<v Speaker 2>But it seemed all the more chilling that she would

574
00:41:46.639 --> 00:41:49.679
<v Speaker 2>go around, pick the child up, throw her like so

575
00:41:49.800 --> 00:41:54.920
<v Speaker 2>much trash on the floorboard of the car. But the

576
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:59.079
<v Speaker 2>detectives and the prosecutors all say that she had kneel

577
00:41:59.360 --> 00:42:03.000
<v Speaker 2>she'd been kneeling on the seat and reached over to

578
00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:09.360
<v Speaker 2>shoot Cheryl, and Cheryl was she was dead. You know,

579
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:11.639
<v Speaker 2>there was no saving that child.

580
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:21.159
<v Speaker 3>You're right that this incredible documentary Diane Elizabeth Diane Downs

581
00:42:21.159 --> 00:42:25.119
<v Speaker 3>in her own words, was ready to air but didn't,

582
00:42:25.639 --> 00:42:30.440
<v Speaker 3>and this caused turmoil, and so your station worried about

583
00:42:30.440 --> 00:42:34.480
<v Speaker 3>the DA getting his hands on the interview, and also

584
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:38.920
<v Speaker 3>the DA thought that maybe the documentary might be sympathetic

585
00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:44.440
<v Speaker 3>towards Elizabeth Diane Downs. But your station fought for the

586
00:42:44.559 --> 00:42:48.119
<v Speaker 3>right to protect your sources and this story. So let's

587
00:42:48.119 --> 00:42:53.280
<v Speaker 3>fast forward to almost a year after this crime, and you,

588
00:42:53.320 --> 00:42:58.239
<v Speaker 3>as a reporter awaiting this trial. You know that there

589
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:02.000
<v Speaker 3>is a prestigious author that contracted to write the story

590
00:43:02.079 --> 00:43:06.400
<v Speaker 3>that would be eventually Anne Rule's book, Small sacrifices. So

591
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:09.920
<v Speaker 3>you thought that Anne Rule was going to be present

592
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:15.400
<v Speaker 3>in the courtroom. Tell us about this incredible encounter that

593
00:43:15.480 --> 00:43:19.679
<v Speaker 3>you have with Anne Rule and Leslie Rule and the

594
00:43:19.719 --> 00:43:21.679
<v Speaker 3>beginning of the trial underway.

595
00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:27.480
<v Speaker 2>I had been at the jury selection and there were

596
00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:29.920
<v Speaker 2>two rows that were saved by the judge for the

597
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:34.800
<v Speaker 2>media up front because the courtroom was always packed, so

598
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:37.960
<v Speaker 2>he wanted to make sure that we would have places

599
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:42.079
<v Speaker 2>to sit on the day of opening arguments. I rushed

600
00:43:42.119 --> 00:43:46.239
<v Speaker 2>in after checking my sources on some other story, and

601
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:50.639
<v Speaker 2>there were no places to sit in those front two rows,

602
00:43:50.679 --> 00:43:54.159
<v Speaker 2>which was very unusual. Well, I saw Anne and I

603
00:43:54.239 --> 00:43:58.079
<v Speaker 2>recognized her, but I didn't recognize the young woman sitting

604
00:43:58.119 --> 00:44:01.480
<v Speaker 2>next to her, who was about my age. So I

605
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:05.920
<v Speaker 2>said to Anne, Hi, Anne, I recognize you. I'm Anne

606
00:44:05.920 --> 00:44:10.159
<v Speaker 2>Bradley and I'm a reporter here in town. But I

607
00:44:10.239 --> 00:44:13.760
<v Speaker 2>don't know who she is. I don't know who you are,

608
00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:17.760
<v Speaker 2>and these roads are saved for the media, and God forbid,

609
00:44:18.280 --> 00:44:20.679
<v Speaker 2>I said, you'll have to move.

610
00:44:21.440 --> 00:44:21.760
<v Speaker 3>Wow.

611
00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:24.599
<v Speaker 2>Tried to figure out a nice way to say it,

612
00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:28.159
<v Speaker 2>but it didn't come out quite right. How embarrassing, right?

613
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:28.840
<v Speaker 3>Right?

614
00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:32.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, I come to find out that that's Enn's daughter,

615
00:44:33.039 --> 00:44:37.599
<v Speaker 2>Leslie Rule, who takes pictures for her mom at trials

616
00:44:37.639 --> 00:44:42.239
<v Speaker 2>and also jots down witness testimony and the reactions of

617
00:44:42.320 --> 00:44:47.800
<v Speaker 2>the jurors and the gallery during the trial. So she

618
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:54.079
<v Speaker 2>introduces Leslie, and I am scarlet faced, thinking, oh my goodness, now,

619
00:44:54.159 --> 00:44:57.800
<v Speaker 2>mind you, I'm still standing up in the aisleway and

620
00:44:57.880 --> 00:45:01.639
<v Speaker 2>this trial is about to get going, and this is

621
00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:05.159
<v Speaker 2>the big opening arguments. And Anne could have left me

622
00:45:05.239 --> 00:45:09.320
<v Speaker 2>out there hanging, and you know, I could see people swirling,

623
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:12.840
<v Speaker 2>craning their heads to hear. What did Anne Jagger just say?

624
00:45:13.440 --> 00:45:16.920
<v Speaker 2>Because I had been a long time anchor and reporter

625
00:45:17.079 --> 00:45:20.400
<v Speaker 2>there in the market, so some people knew me. But Anne,

626
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:24.800
<v Speaker 2>bless her heart, she said, oh, let's just scoop together

627
00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:30.440
<v Speaker 2>and we'll make room. So I scooted together, I sat down,

628
00:45:31.000 --> 00:45:36.159
<v Speaker 2>and I shut up. And that was my first meeting

629
00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:40.119
<v Speaker 2>with Anne Rule, which somehow you can see, I guess

630
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:42.639
<v Speaker 2>throughout the rest of the book how that foment turns

631
00:45:42.679 --> 00:45:48.880
<v Speaker 2>to friendship because of her charm and willingness to find solutions,

632
00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:51.760
<v Speaker 2>and she and I became great friends at that trial.

633
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:55.480
<v Speaker 3>Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear

634
00:45:55.559 --> 00:46:00.360
<v Speaker 3>these messages now you talk of offering to show oh

635
00:46:00.679 --> 00:46:06.119
<v Speaker 3>the documentary to and Rule and Rule accepting. Tell us

636
00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:10.239
<v Speaker 3>about this viewing of your documentary and what Ann Rule

637
00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:11.559
<v Speaker 3>has to say about it.

638
00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:17.280
<v Speaker 2>She met me at the television station in the same

639
00:46:17.400 --> 00:46:21.920
<v Speaker 2>conference room that I had interviewed Diane the year before,

640
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:27.440
<v Speaker 2>and for most of it she never said a word.

641
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:33.159
<v Speaker 2>She took notes, you could tell what especially drew her in.

642
00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:37.320
<v Speaker 2>And my eyes, of course are on her wondering what

643
00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:42.480
<v Speaker 2>is this meteoric author going to think about my work

644
00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:44.360
<v Speaker 2>in this documentary? I mean, is it going to be

645
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:50.119
<v Speaker 2>up to snuff? Right? And she had tremendous powers of concentration.

646
00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:52.440
<v Speaker 2>I guess it's because of those kids that she had

647
00:46:52.840 --> 00:46:56.519
<v Speaker 2>at home and writing for years, and she never took

648
00:46:56.559 --> 00:47:00.360
<v Speaker 2>her eyes off the screen. And that's when and she

649
00:47:00.559 --> 00:47:05.079
<v Speaker 2>started promoting my work as this seminal personality profile of

650
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Diane Downs, and that really linked us together because we

651
00:47:09.480 --> 00:47:15.599
<v Speaker 2>were always obsessed interested with the why how of crime.

652
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:25.400
<v Speaker 3>You also include this glowing, incredible recommendation that she writes

653
00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:29.119
<v Speaker 3>for you. Just tell us briefly what necessitated did she

654
00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:32.320
<v Speaker 3>write this recommendation and why did she want and feel

655
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:35.599
<v Speaker 3>it necessary to write this recommendation for you. What had happened?

656
00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:41.519
<v Speaker 2>Well, Eugene is a smaller market, and you can't make

657
00:47:41.559 --> 00:47:44.599
<v Speaker 2>a good living there, you know, even really enough to

658
00:47:44.679 --> 00:47:48.039
<v Speaker 2>support yourself. So I had hoped that I would be

659
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:50.480
<v Speaker 2>able to move on to a larger market. Of course,

660
00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:53.360
<v Speaker 2>I had only really wanted to go to Seattle or

661
00:47:53.400 --> 00:47:56.000
<v Speaker 2>to Portland, and Portland is where I ended up. So

662
00:47:56.079 --> 00:47:58.679
<v Speaker 2>I asked her to write a recommendation letter for me.

663
00:47:59.639 --> 00:48:03.639
<v Speaker 2>I was so shocked when this two page letter comes

664
00:48:03.639 --> 00:48:08.039
<v Speaker 2>in the mail and is so detailed, and how much

665
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:11.719
<v Speaker 2>she had watched me and seen me. I'd drug an

666
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:14.679
<v Speaker 2>old typewriter into the lobby of the courtroom during the

667
00:48:14.760 --> 00:48:18.920
<v Speaker 2>Downs trial and I would sit there before airtime, typing

668
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:22.960
<v Speaker 2>out a story and then presenting it live on TV

669
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:25.920
<v Speaker 2>for the five o'clock news. So she had watched me

670
00:48:26.039 --> 00:48:30.199
<v Speaker 2>do all those things, and there were some other, you know,

671
00:48:30.519 --> 00:48:34.800
<v Speaker 2>very personal, nice things that I felt like I had

672
00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:36.599
<v Speaker 2>been seen and recognized.

673
00:48:38.679 --> 00:48:42.599
<v Speaker 3>You write the book eventually is small Sacrifices for Manrul

674
00:48:42.679 --> 00:48:46.519
<v Speaker 3>And you organized a release party for her at that time,

675
00:48:47.000 --> 00:48:50.559
<v Speaker 3>and you write that small sacrifices along with Stranger. The

676
00:48:50.599 --> 00:48:55.840
<v Speaker 3>stranger beside me were her two top million selling books.

677
00:48:57.159 --> 00:49:02.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Stranger Beside Me and Small Sackcrifices really set her

678
00:49:02.719 --> 00:49:08.880
<v Speaker 2>into the stratosphere internationally as an author. Imagine having Stranger

679
00:49:08.920 --> 00:49:12.840
<v Speaker 2>Beside Me and then coming up with another murder case

680
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:18.079
<v Speaker 2>that was as chilling and horrifying as the Diane Downs case. Now,

681
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:23.280
<v Speaker 2>she took no pleasure in writing about the murder of children,

682
00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:29.719
<v Speaker 2>but Diane was such a psychopath and sociopath and narcissist

683
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:34.800
<v Speaker 2>that the story had a lot of twists and turns.

684
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Diane was very manipulative, and all of those factors went

685
00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:45.119
<v Speaker 2>into her wanting to do that book, and it did

686
00:49:45.920 --> 00:49:51.079
<v Speaker 2>catapult her into the stratosphere. I mean, you know, those

687
00:49:51.159 --> 00:49:54.239
<v Speaker 2>are two of her best selling books. To this day,

688
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:58.079
<v Speaker 2>she has thirty five books still in print, many many

689
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:00.440
<v Speaker 2>of them were made into TV movies.

690
00:50:03.480 --> 00:50:07.079
<v Speaker 3>You right, that, very much like The Stranger Beside Me,

691
00:50:07.280 --> 00:50:10.960
<v Speaker 3>grew to become a cult favorite and a national and

692
00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:15.800
<v Speaker 3>international bestseller. That also that the Diane Downs interview that

693
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:19.840
<v Speaker 3>you did, and the story itself. You kept following any

694
00:50:20.079 --> 00:50:24.519
<v Speaker 3>new developments, but also twenty twenty took this story a

695
00:50:24.559 --> 00:50:28.639
<v Speaker 3>couple more times and raised its profile via television.

696
00:50:30.519 --> 00:50:34.960
<v Speaker 2>Right two thousand, oh, I think it was sixteen or No.

697
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:39.519
<v Speaker 2>Twenty eleven, So twenty twenty came out and interviewed me

698
00:50:39.719 --> 00:50:44.360
<v Speaker 2>in twenty eleven about the Diane Down's case, and boy

699
00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:46.880
<v Speaker 2>Anne and I both thought, you know, this case is

700
00:50:46.920 --> 00:50:51.920
<v Speaker 2>old and it's been put to rest. And they were

701
00:50:51.960 --> 00:50:56.519
<v Speaker 2>fascinated by the interview the documentary that I had done

702
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:02.360
<v Speaker 2>and used it extensively. Then they came back in twenty

703
00:51:02.599 --> 00:51:06.519
<v Speaker 2>and nineteen, and as Elizabeth Vargas says, you know, the

704
00:51:06.559 --> 00:51:10.000
<v Speaker 2>An Jagger interview really helped Diane dig her own grave.

705
00:51:11.199 --> 00:51:17.480
<v Speaker 2>So in both of these instances, it brought the crime

706
00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:22.239
<v Speaker 2>back into the forefront. And because it had happened so

707
00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:27.400
<v Speaker 2>long before, it was shocking to people that there could

708
00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:31.280
<v Speaker 2>be a woman like that out there. They replay it often.

709
00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:37.880
<v Speaker 3>You're right that Small Sacrifices you join and on the

710
00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:41.599
<v Speaker 3>set and she's sitting in a director's chair in Edmonton,

711
00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:46.199
<v Speaker 3>Canada in nineteen eighty nine and tell us about the

712
00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:49.800
<v Speaker 3>role you play and the role and plays in this

713
00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:53.039
<v Speaker 3>TV version of Small Sacrifices.

714
00:51:54.199 --> 00:51:58.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, Small Sacrifices was the first movie that was made

715
00:51:58.519 --> 00:52:02.480
<v Speaker 2>from one of Van's books, and it was being filmed

716
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:06.840
<v Speaker 2>in Edmonton. My cousin lives in Edmonton, and so I

717
00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:11.280
<v Speaker 2>was staying with her, and I was also working my

718
00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:15.159
<v Speaker 2>day job, which was actually nights at the television station

719
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:19.159
<v Speaker 2>here in Portland. But I would fly up there and

720
00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:23.320
<v Speaker 2>play myself an actress, which I found was a lot

721
00:52:23.400 --> 00:52:27.880
<v Speaker 2>harder than it looks because here, you know, as a reporter,

722
00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:30.079
<v Speaker 2>you're hoping to get it right on the first take.

723
00:52:30.639 --> 00:52:34.159
<v Speaker 2>Well they do many many takes, and I would find

724
00:52:34.199 --> 00:52:38.960
<v Speaker 2>myself getting so bored. I just couldn't muster up the

725
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:43.480
<v Speaker 2>same feeling the authenticity that is required to be a

726
00:52:43.519 --> 00:52:49.320
<v Speaker 2>good actress. I loved seeing Ann in a big director's

727
00:52:49.440 --> 00:52:52.920
<v Speaker 2>chair with her name on it, and Diane was played

728
00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:59.679
<v Speaker 2>by Farah Fawcett, and I noticed that Farah was in

729
00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:04.280
<v Speaker 2>all of Anne, and I think she was really wondering

730
00:53:04.280 --> 00:53:06.559
<v Speaker 2>and stayed out of the way. Mind you, she was

731
00:53:06.719 --> 00:53:09.719
<v Speaker 2>near the director in the camera, she stayed out of

732
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:13.320
<v Speaker 2>the way, and so I think Farah was really curious,

733
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:15.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, am I hitting the mark? Does she like

734
00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:19.880
<v Speaker 2>my portrayal of Diane's How am I doing? One time

735
00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:21.960
<v Speaker 2>when I was there, Farah asked me to come to

736
00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:27.679
<v Speaker 2>her trailer, and she asked me in that meeting, so

737
00:53:27.840 --> 00:53:34.039
<v Speaker 2>what did Diane do during the court testimony, and I

738
00:53:34.159 --> 00:53:38.079
<v Speaker 2>told her what Diane did, and she used those same

739
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:43.079
<v Speaker 2>behaviors in her portrayal of Diane. And then she asked

740
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:49.199
<v Speaker 2>me about this strange interaction when the prosecutor said the

741
00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:53.159
<v Speaker 2>music was playing and the kids were being shot, so

742
00:53:53.199 --> 00:53:56.199
<v Speaker 2>it was hungry like a wolf. I still can't listen

743
00:53:56.239 --> 00:54:02.280
<v Speaker 2>to that song. So Diane, we all know in the

744
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:06.559
<v Speaker 2>courtroom that her children were shot while this music is playing,

745
00:54:07.119 --> 00:54:09.960
<v Speaker 2>and Diane is bobbing her head and she's got her

746
00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:13.960
<v Speaker 2>legs crossed and she's bobbing her leg up and down

747
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:17.880
<v Speaker 2>throughout the whole song. You should have seen the jurors reaction.

748
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:22.800
<v Speaker 3>You chronicle that she has a couple of escape attempts.

749
00:54:23.000 --> 00:54:26.440
<v Speaker 3>But one of the more dramatic things that she agrees

750
00:54:26.480 --> 00:54:31.719
<v Speaker 3>to is appearing on Oprah Winfrey with Anne Rule and

751
00:54:31.760 --> 00:54:36.079
<v Speaker 3>Oprah Winfrey and Diane Down's incredible And.

752
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:38.679
<v Speaker 2>That was an incredible interview, and Oprah had done her

753
00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:45.159
<v Speaker 2>homework as she usually does, but Diane was aggressive and

754
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:50.840
<v Speaker 2>was ridiculing Anne, and I probably her hatred of her

755
00:54:51.519 --> 00:54:54.760
<v Speaker 2>and trying to throw her off. Course, Anne hardly got

756
00:54:54.760 --> 00:54:59.239
<v Speaker 2>a word in edgewise because Diane was her typical, voiciferous

757
00:54:59.320 --> 00:55:05.519
<v Speaker 2>self and just dominated the room. And Oprah asks her,

758
00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:10.880
<v Speaker 2>how could you not be hysterical when your children were

759
00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:14.920
<v Speaker 2>being shot? And she said, well, it wasn't like going

760
00:55:15.000 --> 00:55:19.119
<v Speaker 2>to the state fair and having hot dogs. Then you

761
00:55:19.199 --> 00:55:24.079
<v Speaker 2>saw the looks on the audience faces. They'd been giving

762
00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:27.840
<v Speaker 2>her the side eye, but now all of the eyebrows

763
00:55:27.840 --> 00:55:29.920
<v Speaker 2>were raised and she lost them.

764
00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:37.159
<v Speaker 3>Then tell us about just a few of the things

765
00:55:37.199 --> 00:55:40.280
<v Speaker 3>that Diane Downs continues to do, and you continue to

766
00:55:40.360 --> 00:55:44.519
<v Speaker 3>follow before we talk about what's next for and rule.

767
00:55:47.039 --> 00:55:50.760
<v Speaker 2>Well, yes, I've wanted to make sure that Diane stays

768
00:55:50.760 --> 00:55:54.800
<v Speaker 2>in prison, and I've listened in or attended all of

769
00:55:54.840 --> 00:55:58.480
<v Speaker 2>her parole hearings, which are quite eye opening. One of

770
00:55:58.519 --> 00:56:03.159
<v Speaker 2>my favorite quotes from the last one was people don't

771
00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:06.920
<v Speaker 2>hate me because I'm a baby killer. They hate me

772
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:11.760
<v Speaker 2>because I'm famous. You know, so goes her self professed

773
00:56:11.760 --> 00:56:16.639
<v Speaker 2>innocence Project. Right, They they don't hate me because I'm

774
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:21.320
<v Speaker 2>a baby killer. So she admits in that she has

775
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:25.280
<v Speaker 2>another parole hear in coming up this year, and that

776
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:27.800
<v Speaker 2>will be later in the year, but right now they're

777
00:56:27.840 --> 00:56:30.920
<v Speaker 2>trying to figure out whether she should get a new

778
00:56:31.199 --> 00:56:38.440
<v Speaker 2>trial for attempted murder and assault of her two other

779
00:56:38.559 --> 00:56:42.440
<v Speaker 2>children that survived. And this is because the Supreme Court

780
00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:47.519
<v Speaker 2>has decided that Juri's who did not vote unanimously meaning

781
00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:52.519
<v Speaker 2>twelve zero to convict on those charges, need to go

782
00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:57.639
<v Speaker 2>back and either a provide a new trial, be offer

783
00:56:57.679 --> 00:57:01.679
<v Speaker 2>a plea bargain, which I know Diane will never accept,

784
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:05.639
<v Speaker 2>or they can let it go. Now. I know for

785
00:57:05.719 --> 00:57:08.599
<v Speaker 2>a fact that you know Diane would love to get

786
00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:10.880
<v Speaker 2>out of the prison in chow Chill and come up

787
00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:14.320
<v Speaker 2>here and have a free ride to Oregon, and thank goodness,

788
00:57:14.360 --> 00:57:19.480
<v Speaker 2>she wouldn't be staying in the Oregon Women's Correctional Institute

789
00:57:19.880 --> 00:57:25.159
<v Speaker 2>in Salem where she escaped in nineteen eighty nine. So

790
00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:30.079
<v Speaker 2>if she does have to come back, then you know

791
00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:32.119
<v Speaker 2>we'll have to go through it again. Now, there's no

792
00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:36.960
<v Speaker 2>evidence left from the case that was all destroyed eons

793
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:42.000
<v Speaker 2>ago after all of her appeals were exhausted. But they

794
00:57:42.000 --> 00:57:45.920
<v Speaker 2>still have the trial transcripts with all the truth inside.

795
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:48.960
<v Speaker 2>But there's also the possibility, if you think of this

796
00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:54.559
<v Speaker 2>of revictimizing her victims. Would her daughter have to come back,

797
00:57:54.639 --> 00:57:57.679
<v Speaker 2>She's now a fifty year old woman. Would she have

798
00:57:57.800 --> 00:58:01.079
<v Speaker 2>to come back and relive that day again to see

799
00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:06.519
<v Speaker 2>her mother get what she deserves. So these are all

800
00:58:06.559 --> 00:58:13.079
<v Speaker 2>aspects of her high jinks, and she always finds a

801
00:58:13.119 --> 00:58:17.239
<v Speaker 2>way to turn the knife.

802
00:58:17.400 --> 00:58:22.840
<v Speaker 3>He read about Anne's relationship good friends with Pierce Brooks,

803
00:58:23.480 --> 00:58:27.119
<v Speaker 3>and they both had a drive to understand the psychopathic mind,

804
00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:31.719
<v Speaker 3>and Brooks had a reputation as a criminal profiler before

805
00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:35.239
<v Speaker 3>he and Anne met. In the seventies, he tracked the

806
00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:39.000
<v Speaker 3>movements and behaviors of serial killers across the country with

807
00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:44.280
<v Speaker 3>only newspaper periodicals at the library to compare crimes. But

808
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:47.199
<v Speaker 3>by the time he had met Anne, he was using

809
00:58:47.239 --> 00:58:51.679
<v Speaker 3>the term serial killer instead of the typical lust spree

810
00:58:51.880 --> 00:58:56.119
<v Speaker 3>or thrill killer. Tell us about this initiative that they

811
00:58:56.239 --> 00:58:59.920
<v Speaker 3>both endeavor to do, which ends up being called VISCAP.

812
00:59:01.320 --> 00:59:04.039
<v Speaker 2>Anne is the only author through crime author that I

813
00:59:04.119 --> 00:59:06.760
<v Speaker 2>know of or that I've ever found, that not only

814
00:59:06.800 --> 00:59:09.440
<v Speaker 2>wrote about serial killers, she did something to try to

815
00:59:09.480 --> 00:59:14.360
<v Speaker 2>stop them. She and Pierce Brook's bi She spoke twice

816
00:59:14.440 --> 00:59:19.800
<v Speaker 2>to the Senate Judiciary Committee on serial killers, and together

817
00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:23.719
<v Speaker 2>they ushered in They got the funding for this program.

818
00:59:24.039 --> 00:59:30.239
<v Speaker 2>It's called ViCAP Violent Criminal Apprehension Program, and it's still

819
00:59:30.440 --> 00:59:36.960
<v Speaker 2>in use to this day, so her work in trying

820
00:59:37.000 --> 00:59:42.360
<v Speaker 2>to track and hunt these people has really diminished their success.

821
00:59:44.239 --> 00:59:47.559
<v Speaker 3>Yes, you're right that. She was a regular keynote speaker

822
00:59:47.719 --> 00:59:51.519
<v Speaker 3>at annual Law Enforcement Association meetings and taught a four

823
00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:55.000
<v Speaker 3>hour seminar on serial killers for the FBI.

824
00:59:56.199 --> 01:00:00.119
<v Speaker 2>She spoke all across the country. Yeah, and I think,

825
01:00:00.159 --> 01:00:04.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, having been a detective or you know, always

826
01:00:04.639 --> 01:00:07.039
<v Speaker 2>wanting to have been a detective and then becoming one.

827
01:00:07.079 --> 01:00:12.480
<v Speaker 2>In her writing, she wanted to help them get the

828
01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:16.400
<v Speaker 2>tools that she had realized about these killers. She was

829
01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:19.519
<v Speaker 2>one of the first to figure out that serial killings

830
01:00:19.760 --> 01:00:26.239
<v Speaker 2>happen in waves. Before it just seemed so random and senseless. Well, yeah,

831
01:00:26.400 --> 01:00:33.480
<v Speaker 2>it is those things. But psychologically, this need for blood

832
01:00:33.679 --> 01:00:38.960
<v Speaker 2>and to hunt somebody down and control them and take

833
01:00:39.039 --> 01:00:42.159
<v Speaker 2>their life, to have the ultimate control over them by

834
01:00:42.280 --> 01:00:46.639
<v Speaker 2>ending their lives ran in waves, and it might be

835
01:00:46.760 --> 01:00:50.519
<v Speaker 2>satiated by one killing, or maybe it was two a day,

836
01:00:51.480 --> 01:00:56.239
<v Speaker 2>and then that feeling would be taken care of for

837
01:00:56.280 --> 01:01:00.480
<v Speaker 2>a little while, and then who knows, due too some

838
01:01:00.679 --> 01:01:06.760
<v Speaker 2>abnormalities in the brain or because of life's circumstances, this

839
01:01:06.960 --> 01:01:10.880
<v Speaker 2>quest to kill would build and build and build over again,

840
01:01:11.679 --> 01:01:15.920
<v Speaker 2>and we can see that more clearly now when it's

841
01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:17.239
<v Speaker 2>explained that way.

842
01:01:20.440 --> 01:01:26.679
<v Speaker 3>You speak about serial killer mentality and behavior. But you

843
01:01:26.760 --> 01:01:31.079
<v Speaker 3>also have a chapter in this book called killer Coincidences,

844
01:01:31.119 --> 01:01:35.519
<v Speaker 3>and you talk about that an encountered a killer named

845
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:41.000
<v Speaker 3>Viola in her grandfather's prison, and at that time she

846
01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:43.000
<v Speaker 3>might not have known what she was listening to, but

847
01:01:43.400 --> 01:01:47.239
<v Speaker 3>she remarked later that she was astounded at the woman's

848
01:01:47.360 --> 01:01:51.000
<v Speaker 3>lack of remorse despite the crime itself and her motivation.

849
01:01:51.880 --> 01:01:56.840
<v Speaker 3>But you also had a very interesting, to say the

850
01:01:56.960 --> 01:02:00.800
<v Speaker 3>least encounter with a serial killer yourself. Please tell us

851
01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:04.960
<v Speaker 3>briefly about this encounter with your family and Charles Manson.

852
01:02:06.840 --> 01:02:10.440
<v Speaker 2>I heard Charles Manson sing his song Ceased to Exist

853
01:02:11.199 --> 01:02:14.960
<v Speaker 2>at a campfire in California when I was about ten

854
01:02:15.039 --> 01:02:19.639
<v Speaker 2>years old. That song ended up being beach Boys song

855
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:24.000
<v Speaker 2>called Never Learn Not to Love. But when we met him,

856
01:02:24.159 --> 01:02:28.440
<v Speaker 2>he was just Charlie. My parents had a travel trailer

857
01:02:28.559 --> 01:02:33.159
<v Speaker 2>and we were going through the California Coastal Highway and

858
01:02:33.320 --> 01:02:36.800
<v Speaker 2>camping at places these RV parks. Well, there was no

859
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:39.280
<v Speaker 2>room at any of the local parks as it was

860
01:02:39.320 --> 01:02:43.920
<v Speaker 2>getting dark, so we ended up camping on this isolated beach.

861
01:02:44.000 --> 01:02:48.239
<v Speaker 2>I think It was outside Santa Barbara, and there was

862
01:02:48.360 --> 01:02:54.519
<v Speaker 2>another Pippi bus down there, and there were no camping

863
01:02:54.559 --> 01:02:58.880
<v Speaker 2>signs posted, but there we were. And the door to

864
01:02:58.920 --> 01:03:02.400
<v Speaker 2>the bus open up, and all of these girls come

865
01:03:03.599 --> 01:03:10.360
<v Speaker 2>falling out of the of the bus, and after them

866
01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:16.920
<v Speaker 2>comes one guy. He launches himself off the top step

867
01:03:17.920 --> 01:03:22.000
<v Speaker 2>and his legs together, his arms out wide, you know,

868
01:03:22.119 --> 01:03:27.519
<v Speaker 2>almost christ like, and joins the women. And he and

869
01:03:27.599 --> 01:03:32.199
<v Speaker 2>my dad were friendly at these campfires, and I would

870
01:03:32.519 --> 01:03:37.320
<v Speaker 2>come and go. I was afraid of hippies. I really

871
01:03:38.320 --> 01:03:43.199
<v Speaker 2>thought he was very strange, with his excitable eyes and

872
01:03:43.239 --> 01:03:47.320
<v Speaker 2>how animated and angry he would get. And he kept

873
01:03:47.360 --> 01:03:49.400
<v Speaker 2>on asking my dad, do you think I can sell

874
01:03:49.440 --> 01:03:51.519
<v Speaker 2>this song? Do you think I can sell these songs?

875
01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:56.480
<v Speaker 2>And my dad was a journalist also, not a record producer,

876
01:03:56.559 --> 01:03:58.360
<v Speaker 2>but he said, you know, you should keep on trying.

877
01:03:58.440 --> 01:04:01.719
<v Speaker 2>He had played the trombone during the war, so I

878
01:04:01.719 --> 01:04:06.320
<v Speaker 2>mean he did know about music. So the next day

879
01:04:08.159 --> 01:04:11.559
<v Speaker 2>Dad is setting up something with the trailer and one

880
01:04:11.599 --> 01:04:17.039
<v Speaker 2>of the women comes towards the trailer door and I'm outside.

881
01:04:17.119 --> 01:04:20.199
<v Speaker 2>Dad's now back behind the trailer, and my mom is

882
01:04:20.199 --> 01:04:22.960
<v Speaker 2>in the kitchen doing something, and I go to run

883
01:04:23.000 --> 01:04:25.440
<v Speaker 2>to the door to tell my mom, Mom, one of

884
01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:28.199
<v Speaker 2>those girls is coming over here. And when I turned

885
01:04:28.239 --> 01:04:31.320
<v Speaker 2>to point, I almost got her in the chest, which

886
01:04:32.320 --> 01:04:36.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, quite embarrassing for my mother. I'm sure. The

887
01:04:36.559 --> 01:04:38.960
<v Speaker 2>woman asks if she can take me for a walk,

888
01:04:39.880 --> 01:04:43.519
<v Speaker 2>and I'm standing kind of behind the young woman, you know,

889
01:04:44.000 --> 01:04:48.360
<v Speaker 2>shaking my head no, like a frightened rabbit, because I

890
01:04:48.400 --> 01:04:51.840
<v Speaker 2>really didn't want to go, but my mother was sure,

891
01:04:52.039 --> 01:04:54.079
<v Speaker 2>I think Anne would like to go for a walk.

892
01:04:55.159 --> 01:04:59.880
<v Speaker 2>So we walked up back toward the highway the freeway,

893
01:05:00.519 --> 01:05:03.679
<v Speaker 2>and there were huge boulders there, and the higher and

894
01:05:03.719 --> 01:05:08.679
<v Speaker 2>higher we got, the farther away my parents and that

895
01:05:08.760 --> 01:05:14.400
<v Speaker 2>travel trailer got and the woman had this teaky mug

896
01:05:14.559 --> 01:05:18.320
<v Speaker 2>in her hand. It was an odd color of green

897
01:05:20.000 --> 01:05:23.199
<v Speaker 2>and it had a her She's candy bar a hole

898
01:05:23.320 --> 01:05:28.920
<v Speaker 2>her She's candy bar inside and she said here, you know,

899
01:05:29.639 --> 01:05:33.039
<v Speaker 2>would you like this? And you know, I said, well,

900
01:05:33.480 --> 01:05:36.840
<v Speaker 2>I guess yeah, But I didn't take it right away.

901
01:05:37.000 --> 01:05:44.199
<v Speaker 2>I was still very reticent and hesitant. And the woman said, well,

902
01:05:44.280 --> 01:05:47.679
<v Speaker 2>I brought it for you, and so of course that

903
01:05:47.800 --> 01:05:49.760
<v Speaker 2>was enough for me. I made it through in about

904
01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:55.320
<v Speaker 2>two bites. But in that encounter, the woman starts asking me,

905
01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:58.440
<v Speaker 2>what do your parents do for a living? How much

906
01:05:58.480 --> 01:06:01.559
<v Speaker 2>money do they have? Do you have any other things

907
01:06:01.559 --> 01:06:05.920
<v Speaker 2>in the trailer that you know, like jewelry or you know?

908
01:06:07.440 --> 01:06:10.280
<v Speaker 2>Why are you here? And I said, well, right now,

909
01:06:10.320 --> 01:06:12.599
<v Speaker 2>my dad doesn't have a job and we're just picking

910
01:06:12.679 --> 01:06:15.159
<v Speaker 2>up produce by the side of the road. He would

911
01:06:15.239 --> 01:06:18.159
<v Speaker 2>slow down when we're behind a produce truck and I

912
01:06:18.199 --> 01:06:21.880
<v Speaker 2>would run out and get ears of corn or potatoes

913
01:06:22.039 --> 01:06:24.159
<v Speaker 2>or whatever and put them in the back seat and

914
01:06:24.159 --> 01:06:26.480
<v Speaker 2>then run for the next one. So I kind of

915
01:06:26.599 --> 01:06:30.320
<v Speaker 2>was telling her about that too, and then I started

916
01:06:30.360 --> 01:06:35.000
<v Speaker 2>wondering about her. I said, well, you know, you're you're

917
01:06:35.039 --> 01:06:40.159
<v Speaker 2>so nice to do this. Thank you, And she said, well,

918
01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:43.559
<v Speaker 2>you remind me of my sister. And so I said,

919
01:06:43.559 --> 01:06:45.559
<v Speaker 2>well where is your sister and she said, oh, well

920
01:06:45.559 --> 01:06:49.119
<v Speaker 2>she's at home. And I said, well, you know, if

921
01:06:49.159 --> 01:06:51.840
<v Speaker 2>you miss her, can you see her? And she said no,

922
01:06:52.039 --> 01:06:55.719
<v Speaker 2>that she could never go home again. And I could

923
01:06:55.760 --> 01:06:59.639
<v Speaker 2>not figure out why a girl who was obviously a

924
01:06:59.639 --> 01:07:05.079
<v Speaker 2>teenage couldn't go home. I later figured out that I

925
01:07:05.159 --> 01:07:08.960
<v Speaker 2>think it was Leslie Van Houghton. My mom thought it

926
01:07:09.000 --> 01:07:14.440
<v Speaker 2>was Squeaky from but after the amp fire that night,

927
01:07:16.519 --> 01:07:20.239
<v Speaker 2>my dad came back in and I was sleeping near

928
01:07:20.280 --> 01:07:23.840
<v Speaker 2>the door, and he moved me to the bunk above

929
01:07:23.920 --> 01:07:27.199
<v Speaker 2>their double bed, and I could hear them down there

930
01:07:27.239 --> 01:07:29.960
<v Speaker 2>talking excitedly, and of course I had told my mother,

931
01:07:30.159 --> 01:07:34.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, every detail of what had happened. And the

932
01:07:34.440 --> 01:07:37.800
<v Speaker 2>next thing I know, I wake up and I'm in

933
01:07:37.840 --> 01:07:40.800
<v Speaker 2>the backseat of the car. My dad is putting the

934
01:07:40.800 --> 01:07:43.480
<v Speaker 2>blanket around me, putting me in the back seat and

935
01:07:43.920 --> 01:07:47.199
<v Speaker 2>trying to tell me he was annoyed, but trying to

936
01:07:47.280 --> 01:07:50.480
<v Speaker 2>keep me as quiet as possible and not you know,

937
01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:57.320
<v Speaker 2>groaning and moaning. So we left and we never I

938
01:07:57.440 --> 01:08:03.880
<v Speaker 2>never heard so much as a a squeak of the

939
01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:08.239
<v Speaker 2>sand underneath the six wheels of the car and the trailer.

940
01:08:09.119 --> 01:08:12.000
<v Speaker 2>And we went all the way home, and we didn't

941
01:08:12.000 --> 01:08:15.599
<v Speaker 2>think much about it, really, and it became kind of

942
01:08:15.599 --> 01:08:18.399
<v Speaker 2>a secret in my family. Maybe it was just too

943
01:08:18.439 --> 01:08:24.239
<v Speaker 2>horrifying to realize what could have happened. Fast forward a

944
01:08:24.319 --> 01:08:27.159
<v Speaker 2>year and a half later, my mom comes running down

945
01:08:27.239 --> 01:08:31.840
<v Speaker 2>the hallway, slipping on the nicely waxed floor, saying, Charlie's

946
01:08:31.840 --> 01:08:34.640
<v Speaker 2>in the paper. Charlie's in the newspaper for all those

947
01:08:34.720 --> 01:08:39.640
<v Speaker 2>killings in California. The date LaBianca and Folger murders, and

948
01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:44.319
<v Speaker 2>that's when we learned that Charlie's name was Charlie Manson.

949
01:08:46.479 --> 01:08:54.359
<v Speaker 2>And fast forward from there. Years later, about twenty sixteen,

950
01:08:54.399 --> 01:08:57.119
<v Speaker 2>before my dad died, I scrolled up the courage to

951
01:08:57.199 --> 01:09:01.000
<v Speaker 2>ask him, you know, Dad, what happened back then? Why

952
01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:02.880
<v Speaker 2>did we leave in the middle of the night. What

953
01:09:03.079 --> 01:09:06.720
<v Speaker 2>was that about. He said that Charlie had asked him

954
01:09:06.760 --> 01:09:11.840
<v Speaker 2>at the campfire, saying that they wanted to use our bathroom. Well,

955
01:09:11.880 --> 01:09:14.920
<v Speaker 2>he informed him, which is true, even we didn't use

956
01:09:14.920 --> 01:09:19.880
<v Speaker 2>our own bathroom. So he said no, and Charlie said,

957
01:09:20.399 --> 01:09:24.279
<v Speaker 2>I only hurt people who are afraid of me, and

958
01:09:24.399 --> 01:09:27.560
<v Speaker 2>my dad just stared him down, you know, kind of

959
01:09:27.600 --> 01:09:31.680
<v Speaker 2>toe to toe mano amano, and said, I'm not afraid

960
01:09:31.680 --> 01:09:34.640
<v Speaker 2>of you. I'm not scared of you, which at the time,

961
01:09:35.079 --> 01:09:40.800
<v Speaker 2>knowing my dad he probably wasn't. That brought back to

962
01:09:40.920 --> 01:09:46.079
<v Speaker 2>me all of these memories of being locked in an

963
01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:52.159
<v Speaker 2>aluminum box right next to this heinous killer and his

964
01:09:53.039 --> 01:09:59.239
<v Speaker 2>so called family, his entourage, and I started looking into

965
01:09:59.319 --> 01:10:03.000
<v Speaker 2>it when Charles Manson died, trying to figure out, now,

966
01:10:03.439 --> 01:10:06.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, what would they have wanted. Well, obviously, you

967
01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:09.720
<v Speaker 2>know they were interested in the money, and they were

968
01:10:09.760 --> 01:10:13.439
<v Speaker 2>interested in what we had. But Charlie had just gotten

969
01:10:13.479 --> 01:10:17.479
<v Speaker 2>out of prison not too long ago for trafficking underage

970
01:10:17.520 --> 01:10:20.720
<v Speaker 2>girls over the state lines. One of the girls was

971
01:10:20.840 --> 01:10:25.520
<v Speaker 2>Diane Snaky Lake right. She was only twelve years old

972
01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:29.439
<v Speaker 2>at the time that he met her, and by fourteen

973
01:10:30.079 --> 01:10:33.159
<v Speaker 2>she had already had his baby. Well, she was only

974
01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:37.399
<v Speaker 2>a few years older than I was. So would they

975
01:10:37.399 --> 01:10:39.880
<v Speaker 2>have killed us all and just taken what they could

976
01:10:40.520 --> 01:10:44.399
<v Speaker 2>glean from our trailer? Or would I have ended up,

977
01:10:45.680 --> 01:10:48.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, being a hostage. I really don't know the

978
01:10:48.760 --> 01:10:52.439
<v Speaker 2>answer to that, but I think given his track record,

979
01:10:52.479 --> 01:10:53.760
<v Speaker 2>it's sure a possibility.

980
01:10:54.840 --> 01:10:57.640
<v Speaker 3>Yes, let's use this as an opportunity to stop to

981
01:10:57.680 --> 01:11:02.960
<v Speaker 3>hear these messages. Now let's get to again A very

982
01:11:04.000 --> 01:11:06.279
<v Speaker 3>hard part to read, I guess, and a very hard

983
01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:11.279
<v Speaker 3>part to write, the story of You move from Eugene

984
01:11:11.319 --> 01:11:16.239
<v Speaker 3>to Portland, Oregon for your new job at KGW, and

985
01:11:16.279 --> 01:11:19.800
<v Speaker 3>it just so happened that Leslie Rule lived one block away,

986
01:11:19.960 --> 01:11:24.079
<v Speaker 3>so that would necessitate that there would be many visits

987
01:11:24.079 --> 01:11:28.560
<v Speaker 3>between you, Leslie and Ann tell us. She as at

988
01:11:28.600 --> 01:11:32.359
<v Speaker 3>that point, has over thirty best selling true crime books.

989
01:11:32.359 --> 01:11:36.159
<v Speaker 3>She is considered the Queen of True Crime. Many of

990
01:11:36.159 --> 01:11:40.600
<v Speaker 3>her books have been adapted into film TV miniseries, and

991
01:11:40.680 --> 01:11:46.000
<v Speaker 3>she has been consulting on those films, writing co writing scripts,

992
01:11:46.479 --> 01:11:50.159
<v Speaker 3>being involved in all aspects of taking these books to

993
01:11:50.319 --> 01:11:54.760
<v Speaker 3>the big screen. Tell us what happens in terms of

994
01:11:54.840 --> 01:12:00.399
<v Speaker 3>your friendship and what happens regarding and health.

995
01:12:02.000 --> 01:12:04.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Anne and I got together as often as we

996
01:12:04.439 --> 01:12:07.199
<v Speaker 2>could because Leslie, of course just lived down the street.

997
01:12:07.279 --> 01:12:10.600
<v Speaker 2>But Anne and I had a separate friendship from Leslie.

998
01:12:10.720 --> 01:12:13.439
<v Speaker 2>Leslie was my age, but Anne and I had a

999
01:12:13.479 --> 01:12:20.119
<v Speaker 2>real connection. We bonded over laughter and crimes and you know,

1000
01:12:20.479 --> 01:12:27.800
<v Speaker 2>covering the same killers. But toward the end of her life,

1001
01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:33.359
<v Speaker 2>she became injured when she went to a book signing

1002
01:12:33.399 --> 01:12:38.039
<v Speaker 2>on Whidby Island. She fell and broke her hip. And

1003
01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:41.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, the experts say that the elderly only live

1004
01:12:41.159 --> 01:12:45.840
<v Speaker 2>about three years. Yes, after that, and she was so vibrant,

1005
01:12:45.880 --> 01:12:51.039
<v Speaker 2>I thought, how could this be universal? Because Anne is

1006
01:12:51.199 --> 01:12:55.560
<v Speaker 2>doing great well. She recovered from that. She had also

1007
01:12:55.680 --> 01:13:02.119
<v Speaker 2>recovered from this strange spinal effect that she had that

1008
01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:05.600
<v Speaker 2>they were never really sure what it was, but meningitis,

1009
01:13:05.640 --> 01:13:08.640
<v Speaker 2>according to Leslie, was ruled out. She had to be

1010
01:13:08.720 --> 01:13:12.279
<v Speaker 2>tied to a bed to restrain her because of her

1011
01:13:13.279 --> 01:13:16.520
<v Speaker 2>it gave her kind of kind of like seizures, you know,

1012
01:13:16.600 --> 01:13:21.159
<v Speaker 2>muscle spasms. Imagine seeing your mom in a hospital bed

1013
01:13:21.199 --> 01:13:23.800
<v Speaker 2>and not knowing whether she's going to live or die.

1014
01:13:25.720 --> 01:13:31.119
<v Speaker 2>So those were two things that her spirit just kept

1015
01:13:31.119 --> 01:13:34.359
<v Speaker 2>her up and running. After she broke her hip, she

1016
01:13:34.399 --> 01:13:36.880
<v Speaker 2>did have to be in a wheelchair. That's when I

1017
01:13:36.920 --> 01:13:40.399
<v Speaker 2>would go up to her house. And that's when I

1018
01:13:40.439 --> 01:13:42.560
<v Speaker 2>would go up to her house and plant her garden

1019
01:13:44.239 --> 01:13:48.319
<v Speaker 2>and you know, just give her laughter as the best

1020
01:13:48.800 --> 01:13:54.600
<v Speaker 2>best medicine. That was a couple of years before she passed.

1021
01:13:54.680 --> 01:13:57.600
<v Speaker 2>But even when she was in the hospital and it

1022
01:13:57.640 --> 01:14:01.039
<v Speaker 2>appeared that she wasn't going to make it because she

1023
01:14:01.119 --> 01:14:05.600
<v Speaker 2>was in such critical condition, everybody thought of her as

1024
01:14:05.640 --> 01:14:08.840
<v Speaker 2>the energizer bunny, you know, takes a ticking or a

1025
01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:13.000
<v Speaker 2>licking and keeps on ticking. So nobody really thought that

1026
01:14:13.960 --> 01:14:19.920
<v Speaker 2>at first that she would pass. But I was there

1027
01:14:19.960 --> 01:14:24.039
<v Speaker 2>in the hospital room with her. Leslie was there. I

1028
01:14:24.119 --> 01:14:26.880
<v Speaker 2>was able to, you know, make a list with Anne

1029
01:14:26.920 --> 01:14:30.079
<v Speaker 2>about who she wanted to see. And you know, I

1030
01:14:30.119 --> 01:14:32.680
<v Speaker 2>know how hard you're trying, Anne, and I want you

1031
01:14:32.760 --> 01:14:35.720
<v Speaker 2>to be able to see everybody that you want to

1032
01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:39.399
<v Speaker 2>connect with and so I'd call them and they'd come in.

1033
01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:42.960
<v Speaker 2>It was a it was a really sad time. She

1034
01:14:43.039 --> 01:14:46.479
<v Speaker 2>had had a stroke and wasn't really able to speak,

1035
01:14:47.279 --> 01:14:51.560
<v Speaker 2>but I helped her learn how to say I love you,

1036
01:14:53.199 --> 01:14:57.039
<v Speaker 2>so everybody knew that they were loved no matter what

1037
01:14:57.119 --> 01:14:58.199
<v Speaker 2>they were going through.

1038
01:15:00.520 --> 01:15:04.079
<v Speaker 3>Yes, you were there at the end with Anne, with

1039
01:15:04.239 --> 01:15:08.760
<v Speaker 3>family and with friends. And you say that she was

1040
01:15:08.800 --> 01:15:13.319
<v Speaker 3>still working on her last book, Practice to Deceive Leslie

1041
01:15:13.439 --> 01:15:18.000
<v Speaker 3>was contracted to finish the manuscript, and she had completed

1042
01:15:18.520 --> 01:15:21.880
<v Speaker 3>The Still in the Night and previous to that, so

1043
01:15:22.119 --> 01:15:28.680
<v Speaker 3>thirty five books under her journalistic belt. You had spent

1044
01:15:28.760 --> 01:15:34.079
<v Speaker 3>three days in Seattle with Anne and with the family

1045
01:15:34.119 --> 01:15:37.960
<v Speaker 3>and friends, and then you got back and you write

1046
01:15:37.960 --> 01:15:44.760
<v Speaker 3>of a strange I guess coincidence or a tug from

1047
01:15:44.840 --> 01:15:47.840
<v Speaker 3>Anne from beyond. So please tell us about that.

1048
01:15:49.159 --> 01:15:52.039
<v Speaker 2>Well, when the last family member got to the hospital,

1049
01:15:52.159 --> 01:15:55.279
<v Speaker 2>I thought, okay, and your work here is done. You

1050
01:15:55.319 --> 01:15:58.279
<v Speaker 2>can go home now. She's in good hands. And they

1051
01:15:58.319 --> 01:16:00.920
<v Speaker 2>moved her into a hospice room of the glare and

1052
01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:06.880
<v Speaker 2>the beeping cacophony of the ICU. So I went and

1053
01:16:06.960 --> 01:16:10.199
<v Speaker 2>visited her to her for one last time, It was

1054
01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:14.520
<v Speaker 2>probably ten o'clock at night, and you know, I ran

1055
01:16:14.680 --> 01:16:18.399
<v Speaker 2>my hand, almost touching her, but I didn't want to

1056
01:16:18.479 --> 01:16:22.760
<v Speaker 2>wake her because I knew it was going to be

1057
01:16:22.800 --> 01:16:28.279
<v Speaker 2>the last time I'd see her. So I went home.

1058
01:16:29.560 --> 01:16:34.119
<v Speaker 2>I really couldn't sleep. Next day passes. I hear that

1059
01:16:34.600 --> 01:16:39.159
<v Speaker 2>Anna is doing okay. She's watching her favorite TV game shows,

1060
01:16:39.239 --> 01:16:42.439
<v Speaker 2>The Price is Right. She had loved Bob Barker and

1061
01:16:42.640 --> 01:16:49.039
<v Speaker 2>Animal devote, so I knew things were going as she

1062
01:16:49.159 --> 01:16:54.239
<v Speaker 2>was comfortable. Things were going as good as could be expected.

1063
01:16:55.880 --> 01:17:01.600
<v Speaker 2>So I wasn't even doing any thing. I couldn't do anything.

1064
01:17:02.840 --> 01:17:08.199
<v Speaker 2>The clock would hardly move. Finally, just after ten thirty

1065
01:17:08.279 --> 01:17:13.319
<v Speaker 2>that night, outside my bedroom window where I was, I

1066
01:17:13.359 --> 01:17:19.319
<v Speaker 2>heard gun shots and I heard howls, and I thought,

1067
01:17:19.479 --> 01:17:23.039
<v Speaker 2>what the heck is going on? Over there? Across the

1068
01:17:23.119 --> 01:17:26.720
<v Speaker 2>street There had been a coyote who had been prowling

1069
01:17:26.760 --> 01:17:31.720
<v Speaker 2>the neighborhood, and I knew by the howls the cries

1070
01:17:31.880 --> 01:17:35.319
<v Speaker 2>from that wounded animal that somebody had shot at with

1071
01:17:35.359 --> 01:17:38.560
<v Speaker 2>a small gauged gun and had done a really crappy

1072
01:17:38.680 --> 01:17:43.680
<v Speaker 2>job of it. Then there was one or two more shots,

1073
01:17:43.720 --> 01:17:48.199
<v Speaker 2>and there were no more sounds. I got a call

1074
01:17:48.399 --> 01:17:54.319
<v Speaker 2>just after that that Anne had passed. And I really

1075
01:17:54.319 --> 01:17:57.760
<v Speaker 2>don't know how to reconcile the feelings within me, but

1076
01:17:57.880 --> 01:18:01.479
<v Speaker 2>it did seem that Anne was letting me know, not

1077
01:18:01.520 --> 01:18:07.039
<v Speaker 2>in pain, but in passing that she was gone, because

1078
01:18:07.079 --> 01:18:09.920
<v Speaker 2>it happened around the same time that she was gone,

1079
01:18:09.960 --> 01:18:11.560
<v Speaker 2>and she was going to.

1080
01:18:11.560 --> 01:18:19.520
<v Speaker 3>Be okay, You right that in the end, Anne never

1081
01:18:19.600 --> 01:18:25.199
<v Speaker 3>expected all of the incredible success that she earned, but

1082
01:18:25.319 --> 01:18:29.560
<v Speaker 3>she always retained that she had to know the why.

1083
01:18:30.720 --> 01:18:33.479
<v Speaker 3>And you say, the most lovable and admirable aspect of

1084
01:18:33.520 --> 01:18:38.520
<v Speaker 3>Anne rule was her humanity, an understanding, and a kindness

1085
01:18:38.560 --> 01:18:43.520
<v Speaker 3>towards people. Foremost, Anne became a legend by reinventing the

1086
01:18:43.600 --> 01:18:46.119
<v Speaker 3>true crime genre for new generations.

1087
01:18:47.800 --> 01:18:50.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, I don't think many people realize this today,

1088
01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:53.600
<v Speaker 2>but Anne was a trailblazer in this way too, not

1089
01:18:53.680 --> 01:18:57.920
<v Speaker 2>only through her efforts to catch serial killers, but also

1090
01:18:58.840 --> 01:19:05.119
<v Speaker 2>reestablishing true crime genre. Let's face it, all the books

1091
01:19:05.119 --> 01:19:08.399
<v Speaker 2>back then when she started were written by men. A

1092
01:19:08.399 --> 01:19:10.960
<v Speaker 2>lot of people editors didn't believe that a woman could

1093
01:19:11.000 --> 01:19:16.800
<v Speaker 2>know that much about forensics and criminology. They soon found

1094
01:19:16.840 --> 01:19:20.279
<v Speaker 2>out something very different, but the men were writing about

1095
01:19:20.319 --> 01:19:24.680
<v Speaker 2>it in a very visceral brutal, kind of gory way.

1096
01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:30.199
<v Speaker 2>And I remember talking to her about the book In

1097
01:19:30.279 --> 01:19:34.359
<v Speaker 2>Cold Blood by Truman Capoti and saying how mesmerized I

1098
01:19:34.439 --> 01:19:37.600
<v Speaker 2>had been by that book. She didn't like it, and

1099
01:19:37.760 --> 01:19:42.279
<v Speaker 2>I was really surprised because it was really good storytelling, right,

1100
01:19:43.079 --> 01:19:46.199
<v Speaker 2>And she didn't like it because it glamorized the killers,

1101
01:19:46.279 --> 01:19:50.000
<v Speaker 2>and that's what the other men in true crime were doing.

1102
01:19:50.760 --> 01:19:55.199
<v Speaker 2>And came along and rewrote the book on true crime

1103
01:19:55.479 --> 01:19:58.800
<v Speaker 2>by including the victims, what were their hopes, what were

1104
01:19:58.880 --> 01:20:02.199
<v Speaker 2>their dreams, what were they like? You know, she was

1105
01:20:02.239 --> 01:20:06.039
<v Speaker 2>a mother. She knew that mothers wouldn't want their daughters

1106
01:20:06.079 --> 01:20:10.880
<v Speaker 2>to only be remembered as you know, some fodder for

1107
01:20:11.000 --> 01:20:15.760
<v Speaker 2>a serial killer and the horrible ways she died, or

1108
01:20:16.199 --> 01:20:20.359
<v Speaker 2>that their pictures were up on a police blotter or

1109
01:20:20.760 --> 01:20:25.359
<v Speaker 2>corkboard in the cop shop, trying to find out who

1110
01:20:25.439 --> 01:20:31.920
<v Speaker 2>killed them. So and extensively and always was an advocate

1111
01:20:32.000 --> 01:20:37.920
<v Speaker 2>for victims' rights, and she brought women into the stories

1112
01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:43.239
<v Speaker 2>and that brought in millions of female readers. Now, the

1113
01:20:43.279 --> 01:20:46.760
<v Speaker 2>old guard they didn't like this very much, you know,

1114
01:20:47.359 --> 01:20:51.319
<v Speaker 2>as Catherine Casey, another friend of Anne Rules and also

1115
01:20:52.159 --> 01:20:56.760
<v Speaker 2>a megastar true crime author tried to describe it saying,

1116
01:20:57.279 --> 01:20:59.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, what is the word that they might have

1117
01:20:59.760 --> 01:21:03.279
<v Speaker 2>been saying? Is it soppy? They thought that this type

1118
01:21:03.279 --> 01:21:08.520
<v Speaker 2>of writing had no place in true crime. Well, Anne

1119
01:21:08.520 --> 01:21:12.920
<v Speaker 2>proved them all wrong. And as the true crime as

1120
01:21:12.960 --> 01:21:15.560
<v Speaker 2>we know it today is all because of Anne. She

1121
01:21:15.720 --> 01:21:17.039
<v Speaker 2>was the one who started it.

1122
01:21:18.560 --> 01:21:23.319
<v Speaker 3>Yes, absolutely, she transformed the trend to be concentrating on

1123
01:21:23.359 --> 01:21:27.159
<v Speaker 3>the victims stories rather than the at that point, the

1124
01:21:27.159 --> 01:21:31.399
<v Speaker 3>more fascinating, supposedly story of the killer and the reasons

1125
01:21:31.399 --> 01:21:34.640
<v Speaker 3>why he became a killer, and had all the reasons

1126
01:21:34.680 --> 01:21:37.239
<v Speaker 3>why the killer may have become a killer, but also

1127
01:21:37.840 --> 01:21:41.960
<v Speaker 3>the incredible stories of the victims and the families, and

1128
01:21:42.279 --> 01:21:48.840
<v Speaker 3>just the overall sheer terror and impact that the murders

1129
01:21:48.840 --> 01:21:49.920
<v Speaker 3>had on the families.

1130
01:21:51.319 --> 01:21:54.039
<v Speaker 2>You know a lot of families asked her to write

1131
01:21:54.039 --> 01:21:58.560
<v Speaker 2>books about their children. One of her books, I think

1132
01:21:58.560 --> 01:22:03.640
<v Speaker 2>it was If You Really Loved Me. Sheila Blush told

1133
01:22:03.640 --> 01:22:07.520
<v Speaker 2>her sister before she was murdered by her ex husband

1134
01:22:08.840 --> 01:22:11.640
<v Speaker 2>that if anything ever happens to me, I want you

1135
01:22:11.680 --> 01:22:14.359
<v Speaker 2>to contact Anne Rule and I want you to get

1136
01:22:14.359 --> 01:22:18.520
<v Speaker 2>her to write about it. And so Sheila's sister did that,

1137
01:22:18.800 --> 01:22:21.640
<v Speaker 2>and that's where that book came from and in the

1138
01:22:21.720 --> 01:22:25.239
<v Speaker 2>dedication and writes to the effect of, you know, for

1139
01:22:25.399 --> 01:22:30.760
<v Speaker 2>Sheila Belush who never had her own who lost her

1140
01:22:30.840 --> 01:22:36.119
<v Speaker 2>voice and wanted to bring her voice back. And there

1141
01:22:36.199 --> 01:22:40.119
<v Speaker 2>was also oh, there were many many times in the

1142
01:22:40.159 --> 01:22:43.399
<v Speaker 2>still of the night that was because a family member

1143
01:22:43.479 --> 01:22:48.840
<v Speaker 2>wanted it to be done. And then the murder from

1144
01:22:49.079 --> 01:22:51.800
<v Speaker 2>it was in a crime files, which was a whole

1145
01:22:52.000 --> 01:22:56.960
<v Speaker 2>another thing that Anne did. It was a compilation of stories.

1146
01:22:57.319 --> 01:23:01.640
<v Speaker 2>It was Susan Powell's parents who asked and to write

1147
01:23:01.680 --> 01:23:06.920
<v Speaker 2>about their daughter after Susan's husband killed her in another state,

1148
01:23:07.760 --> 01:23:13.399
<v Speaker 2>then brought the children to Seattle and then shot them

1149
01:23:13.840 --> 01:23:17.359
<v Speaker 2>and burned the house down with them in it. So

1150
01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:20.560
<v Speaker 2>she cried with parents. She tried to help them, she

1151
01:23:21.640 --> 01:23:25.399
<v Speaker 2>lobbied for their causes. She was such a good listener,

1152
01:23:25.920 --> 01:23:29.439
<v Speaker 2>and it was that humanity that she had. She was

1153
01:23:29.479 --> 01:23:31.880
<v Speaker 2>always so humble. You know, she could have been a

1154
01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:35.800
<v Speaker 2>hoity toity author, sure, because she had certainly earned it.

1155
01:23:36.359 --> 01:23:40.920
<v Speaker 2>But note she was that Midwest girl from Lowell, Michigan,

1156
01:23:41.920 --> 01:23:48.359
<v Speaker 2>who worked every single day at writing but became a

1157
01:23:48.439 --> 01:23:50.239
<v Speaker 2>megastar in the industry.

1158
01:23:51.920 --> 01:23:55.960
<v Speaker 3>Yes, you're right, that Ann Rule was the small town

1159
01:23:56.079 --> 01:23:58.640
<v Speaker 3>girl who wanted it to be a detective, but grew

1160
01:23:58.720 --> 01:24:02.279
<v Speaker 3>up to write the most arresting stories. I want to

1161
01:24:02.319 --> 01:24:04.680
<v Speaker 3>thank you so much a Jagger for coming on and

1162
01:24:04.720 --> 01:24:08.199
<v Speaker 3>talking about your incredible The Rule of Crime and Me,

1163
01:24:08.520 --> 01:24:11.520
<v Speaker 3>an intimate view of and rule shared by her friend

1164
01:24:11.720 --> 01:24:14.399
<v Speaker 3>of thirty years for those people that might want to

1165
01:24:14.479 --> 01:24:18.680
<v Speaker 3>check out your other work and also more about this book,

1166
01:24:19.079 --> 01:24:20.880
<v Speaker 3>The Rule of Crime and Me. Can you tell us

1167
01:24:20.880 --> 01:24:24.159
<v Speaker 3>about any social media or website that you have and

1168
01:24:24.199 --> 01:24:24.439
<v Speaker 3>you do?

1169
01:24:25.359 --> 01:24:27.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Well, Dan, this has really made me miss her

1170
01:24:27.439 --> 01:24:31.159
<v Speaker 2>all over again, but I'm happy for the thoughts again.

1171
01:24:31.880 --> 01:24:34.520
<v Speaker 2>You can pick up the book on Amazon. It's been

1172
01:24:34.560 --> 01:24:38.800
<v Speaker 2>a number one new release and it's got five star reviews,

1173
01:24:38.840 --> 01:24:41.880
<v Speaker 2>so please pick it up. It's only available on Amazon.

1174
01:24:42.479 --> 01:24:46.800
<v Speaker 2>I have a small website, The Rule Offcrime dot com.

1175
01:24:47.319 --> 01:24:49.479
<v Speaker 2>If you forget the name and you can't find it

1176
01:24:49.520 --> 01:24:53.960
<v Speaker 2>on Amazon, you can go there. That'll lead you to

1177
01:24:54.279 --> 01:24:56.159
<v Speaker 2>where you can buy the book because it's not in

1178
01:24:56.199 --> 01:25:00.960
<v Speaker 2>bookstores it's self published. And then also on Facebook, I

1179
01:25:01.000 --> 01:25:03.760
<v Speaker 2>have a page in my own name, and then I

1180
01:25:03.840 --> 01:25:09.319
<v Speaker 2>have another page called True Crime LLLC where at the

1181
01:25:09.359 --> 01:25:13.159
<v Speaker 2>present time I'm posting a lot about Anne and the

1182
01:25:13.199 --> 01:25:18.199
<v Speaker 2>criminals that we both shared between us and some of

1183
01:25:18.199 --> 01:25:21.439
<v Speaker 2>the things that some of the escapades we had along

1184
01:25:21.479 --> 01:25:24.359
<v Speaker 2>the way. And you'll see interviews that I did for

1185
01:25:24.439 --> 01:25:29.680
<v Speaker 2>the book. And I really hope that as many people

1186
01:25:29.720 --> 01:25:33.720
<v Speaker 2>who love and Rule they will discover her all over

1187
01:25:33.800 --> 01:25:38.479
<v Speaker 2>again and understand what she was like as a friend,

1188
01:25:39.159 --> 01:25:42.319
<v Speaker 2>as a mentor and as a trailblazer.

1189
01:25:43.960 --> 01:25:47.720
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, thank you so much the Rule of Crime and

1190
01:25:47.760 --> 01:25:51.239
<v Speaker 3>me and Jagger, thank you so much for this interview.

1191
01:25:51.279 --> 01:25:53.920
<v Speaker 3>And you have a great evening and good night. Thank you.