Speaker 1: Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 2: It beats listening to nothing.
Speaker 1: My goodness, Being Frank, where the only way to be
Speaker 1: is Frank. Hello everyone, and welcome to Being Frank, where
Speaker 1: the only way to be is well, Frank. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Frank Wereborne, and I'd like to thank you for joining
Speaker 1: us on what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation podcast,
Speaker 1: where no conversations out of bounds and all points of
Speaker 1: view are welcome. We record live to tape, and I
Speaker 1: always give you the date so you have some context
Speaker 1: and relevance. It's the fifteenth of May, when my guest
Speaker 1: applied for and was granted permission to attend Congressman Mike
Speaker 1: Lawler's town hall meeting on May third and somers New York.
Speaker 1: She knew was bound to be contentious, of course, just
Speaker 1: how much so couldn't have been predicted by her or
Speaker 1: anyone else for that matter. Lawler, a Republican, represents the
Speaker 1: area's seventeenth congressional district and is currently running for reelection.
Speaker 1: Is considered by both parties as one of the most
Speaker 1: important elections on the national stage, as the seat will
Speaker 1: be key on who will control Congress. In the previous election,
Speaker 1: Lawler staged an upset with a win in a traditionally
Speaker 1: blue area. However, since then he has been dogged by
Speaker 1: criticism that he talks one way and votes another. Despite
Speaker 1: presenting himself as the GOP's moderate voice of reason, his
Speaker 1: votes tend to be very much along party lines, citing
Speaker 1: most often with President Donald J. Trump. His constituents regularly
Speaker 1: made requests for a public town hall style meeting where
Speaker 1: they could ask the congressman questions in real time. However,
Speaker 1: despite promising them, Laura did not schedule any until recently,
Speaker 1: and that turned out to be a disaster. During that
Speaker 1: first meeting in late April, held in Rockland County, Lawler
Speaker 1: was roundly booed and frequently in interrupted by the crowd,
Speaker 1: who found his responses to questions as evasive and therefore unacceptable.
Speaker 1: They came for answers and felt that they got none.
Speaker 1: With that in mind, Lawler's camp dug in and instituted
Speaker 1: strict rules in additional security measures for the Somers meeting.
Speaker 1: Registrations and IDAs would be required, amongst other things, Questions
Speaker 1: would have to be submitted in advance, and follow ups
Speaker 1: would be limited. As my guests observed during the meeting,
Speaker 1: Lawler had no real interest in addressing their actual concerns
Speaker 1: by directly answering the questions. Instead, he treated it more
Speaker 1: like a campaign rally. So when my guest's frustration reached
Speaker 1: the breaking point, she pressed the congressman by blurting out
Speaker 1: from her chair, I'm paraphrasing where you draw your red
Speaker 1: line when it comes to President Trump's agenda? A completely
Speaker 1: legitimate question and one that many others in the crowd
Speaker 1: wants it answered as well. But instead of diffusing the
Speaker 1: situation by simply answering the question, lawless people doubled down
Speaker 1: and used five burly New York State troopers to forcibly
Speaker 1: remove my guest when she refused to leave for disrupting
Speaker 1: the meeting. Now, if you could see just how diminutive
Speaker 1: she is, you would understand the absurdity of using that
Speaker 1: kind of brute force. It was obviously designed to send
Speaker 1: a message that descent to us approved would be crushed.
Speaker 1: The backlash was swift and overwhelming, with My guests becoming
Speaker 1: an overnight celebrity, granting interviews to multiple news outlets around
Speaker 1: the country and world. The feedback has been both positive,
Speaker 1: with many praising her for what the late John Lewis
Speaker 1: called good trouble and negative, with others saying she got
Speaker 1: what she deserved for not following the rules. One thing
Speaker 1: is for certain, the Act changed her life forever. So
Speaker 1: that any further ado, Let's meet the latest defender of
Speaker 1: the First Amendment, Emily Finer. Emily, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: joining us, and I met what I said. You're a
Speaker 1: busy lady right now. You're very much in demand.
Speaker 2: Well, fortunately my fifteen minutes is starting to wayne, so
Speaker 2: it's getting a little less hectic. But thank you. It's
Speaker 2: nice to be here, Frank, and.
Speaker 1: I'm going to talk a little bit about that the
Speaker 1: effects that instant overnight fame, especially in today's social media world,
Speaker 1: can mean for you. And we'll get to that, but
Speaker 1: first let's talk a little bit about Emily Feiner. You
Speaker 1: have a long biography, impressive as a social worker, But
Speaker 1: why don't you tell us what you think is most
Speaker 1: important that people should know about you in your background?
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, I don't know what's most important. I
Speaker 2: think that what people don't know is that I grew
Speaker 2: up in a family of activists. My father was a
Speaker 2: litigant in a Supreme Court case that was about his
Speaker 2: First Amendment right to free speech, and he went to
Speaker 2: jail at the end of that court case. That's widely
Speaker 2: held up as a as a real mistake and an
Speaker 2: example of McCarthyism and the evils it brought to this country.
Speaker 1: What just what year was that, Emily, I might do
Speaker 1: you recall it was.
Speaker 2: Decided in nineteen fifty. He was arrested in nineteen forty
Speaker 2: nine for making a street corner speech in defense of
Speaker 2: black civil rights.
Speaker 1: It gives thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I grew up in a family that, you know,
Speaker 2: on the weekends we were often protesting. I grew up
Speaker 2: protesting the Vietnam War. I grew up marching for the
Speaker 2: rights of working people to organize. I grew up marching
Speaker 2: for civil rights. So being an active member of my
Speaker 2: community is not, you know, foreign to me. I certainly
Speaker 2: was raised to do that. But I had never encounter
Speaker 2: the kind of sort of state sponsored violence and state
Speaker 2: sponsored restriction of my rights like I did that night
Speaker 2: at the Lawlertown Hall.
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that, obviously in much more
Speaker 1: detail as our conversation continues, But you know what I knew,
Speaker 1: your father, Irving Finer I was kind of a trusted friend.
Speaker 1: I was in media, so he would often come to
Speaker 1: me for advice, media advice about certain things in his platform.
Speaker 1: And I always found him brilliant, but to be completely transparent,
Speaker 1: he could be irascible, let's say, at times, because he
Speaker 1: was so strong in his opinions. And I used to
Speaker 1: say that, you know, politics is a complicated thing. You know,
Speaker 1: people have to like the message, but they also have
Speaker 1: to like the person delivering the message. What did you
Speaker 1: take from him in his role? As I said, he
Speaker 1: was very strong, He was a hardcore social and he
Speaker 1: was brilliant. I mean I loved to talk to him,
Speaker 1: but he could also this is be intimidating, partially because
Speaker 1: of his brilliance and he was, but also, as I said,
Speaker 1: his straightforward, kind of, for lack of a better word,
Speaker 1: in your face personality. How did you balance that and
Speaker 1: what did you take from that?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Boy?
Speaker 2: So I think you know, in my younger years, I
Speaker 2: was sort of embarrassed by my father's presentation and harascibility.
Speaker 2: You know, I have a very clear memory of being
Speaker 2: at a political you know, a night where the election
Speaker 2: returns were coming in and my father, who must have
Speaker 2: been in his sixties at that point, charging you know,
Speaker 2: at much younger men in there were, like forties, because
Speaker 2: he was pissed off at the Clarkstown Democrats and I
Speaker 2: was mortified. It's really funny, though, over the last couple
Speaker 2: of years, I've understood my father so much better because
Speaker 2: you know, I remember one saying to him, why do
Speaker 2: you do this? Like why so over the top, And
Speaker 2: he would say, because it gets their attention when you
Speaker 2: do it politely, it doesn't. And you know, my dad
Speaker 2: developed his style in many ways as a reflection of
Speaker 2: one of his great heroes, Vito Marcantonio, who was a
Speaker 2: belief openly. I think he was elected as an open
Speaker 2: socialist to the United States Congress. And Vito Marcantonio he
Speaker 2: wrote a book called I Vote My Conscience. He's a
Speaker 2: really wonderful historical figure and spoke the truth at a
Speaker 2: time when people weren't. And he apparently had the same
Speaker 2: style as speaking. And I think my father really gloned
Speaker 2: on too that. He also, as a boy, knew Feararella LaGuardia.
Speaker 2: His parents owned his candy shop in Harlem and then
Speaker 2: in the Bronx, and Fiarella LaGuardia would come to the
Speaker 2: candy shop when he demanded that all the little slot
Speaker 2: machines get taken out of all the little mom and
Speaker 2: pop shops across the city because they were bankrupting working people.
Speaker 2: My grandfather made a deal with Varela LaGuardia that he
Speaker 2: could keep the slot machine because this was at the
Speaker 2: height of the depression. He could keep the slot machine
Speaker 2: long enough to pay for his daughter, Regina, to complete
Speaker 2: her degree at NYU in music, and LaGuardia agreed and
Speaker 2: then came to the shop when my aunt graduated college,
Speaker 2: had a drink with my grandfather and they chopped up
Speaker 2: the one arm bandit. So I think, you know, he
Speaker 2: was emulating these folks. For me, that's not exactly my style.
Speaker 2: But I can also be pretty heed it and passionate
Speaker 2: about things. And I understand now why it was hard
Speaker 2: for him to control himself. When you see people around
Speaker 2: you ignoring evil and promoting evil, and you see people dying,
Speaker 2: you see people suffering, you see families touring apart. If
Speaker 2: you're not really angry, I think there's something wrong with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, And with perfect segue, and so let's
Speaker 1: get into some detail about what happened that day in
Speaker 1: somers it's all leading to that. You know, the mindset,
Speaker 1: your background, et cetera. So lead Obviously we've spoken in
Speaker 1: you know, pre programming interviews, et cetera, and I gather
Speaker 1: it wasn't in your mind necessarily directly to be disruptive.
Speaker 1: I think people have to understand that, because some of
Speaker 1: the negative comments have printed to you as an agitator,
Speaker 1: that you went in there with the attitude that you
Speaker 1: are going to break up the meat no matter what.
Speaker 1: But I don't get that from you. So lead us
Speaker 1: in what was your mindset going into the meeting in
Speaker 1: the first place, and then we'll go through what happened
Speaker 1: as the meeting went along. But what kind of mindset
Speaker 1: did you approach it in the first place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let me just say I am a five
Speaker 2: foot woman. I don't like crowds. And while I'm certainly
Speaker 2: pretty assertive and I have no problem speaking up when
Speaker 2: I am in a large group of people, that's almost
Speaker 2: the last thing I want to do. I really want
Speaker 2: to just sort of blend in. And while I have
Speaker 2: been really active in both electoral and issue oriented politics,
Speaker 2: I've always supported other people. It's not like I want
Speaker 2: to be the spot by I was elected twice to
Speaker 2: public office, and then in a third run, I was
Speaker 2: defeated for a higher I've never put myself out there again.
Speaker 2: It's like not my thing. So let me just say
Speaker 2: that I went there not even prepared to ask a
Speaker 2: question because I didn't know what the process would be,
Speaker 2: and I was sort of I thought, oh, they'll never
Speaker 2: call it me, you know, like there's hundreds of people.
Speaker 2: But I was there because I wanted to see for
Speaker 2: myself and hear for myself how the congressman would answer questions.
Speaker 2: And I wanted to be supportive of my neighbors who
Speaker 2: are you know, we are all really concerned about what's
Speaker 2: happening in our country. And so I was there to
Speaker 2: lend my presence to this cause, to be part of
Speaker 2: a group of people seeking answers and trying to sway
Speaker 2: their congressperson to do the work that they were elected
Speaker 2: to do. I did not go there with any intention
Speaker 2: of disrupting anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's important to make that point because
Speaker 1: there have been again false accusations of paid prose testers
Speaker 1: coming to these meetings. I mean, Indivisible Rockland has been
Speaker 1: running some of them, and you've seen what I put
Speaker 1: the promo out for your appearance, some of the comments
Speaker 1: and one in particular about how people were it's part
Speaker 1: of it's part of an organized plan by individual Rockland
Speaker 1: to disrupt and damage, et cetera. And I have no
Speaker 1: I have no evidence of that, and no one else
Speaker 1: has been able to produce any evidence of that. So
Speaker 1: talk to that a little bit.
Speaker 2: Well, you know. So one of the things that's really
Speaker 2: been fascinating about this for me is what happens when
Speaker 2: you go viral, And what's really clear to me is
Speaker 2: that everybody projects onto you what they want you to be.
Speaker 2: You lose your individuality, which is why I really appreciate
Speaker 2: the opportunity to talk to you and speak for myself
Speaker 2: because I have seeing things said about me, I mean,
Speaker 2: by people who support me that just aren't true. You know,
Speaker 2: I would never claim to be a moderate. I have
Speaker 2: seen that I am a moderate who has supported both
Speaker 2: Republicans and Democrats, because in one interview I was asked,
Speaker 2: have you ever voted Republican? And I answered truthfully, yes,
Speaker 2: I have. Twice, nobody asked me who those Republicans were,
Speaker 2: when or why, so they assumed I was a moderate.
Speaker 2: I think if you know, if they had asked, they
Speaker 2: would not have come away with that with that impression.
Speaker 2: But also this notion that I went with Indivisible Rockland,
Speaker 2: of all of all groups to disrupt this event is
Speaker 2: really ironic because I have had some real problems with
Speaker 2: Indivisible nationally as well as locally. I have real concerns
Speaker 2: about that group and that movement, and then the leaders
Speaker 2: locally I've had some disagreements with, and I've been really
Speaker 2: reticent to join with them. So I have been going
Speaker 2: to Tesla takedowns that have nothing to do with Indivisible Rockland,
Speaker 2: and I went to a couple of their events. That
Speaker 2: is true, But to think that I would be working
Speaker 2: with them behind the scenes to have this happen is
Speaker 2: really silly and really indicates that somebody doesn't know me
Speaker 2: and and sort of the internal workings of Rockland County politics.
Speaker 2: It's just sort of weird Fox News o an news
Speaker 2: talking points that don't at all speak to the reality.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about those talking points and reality, because you
Speaker 1: mentioned social media, and even before then, we tend to
Speaker 1: live in a SoundBite world, segmented, and I think mostly
Speaker 1: everybody has seen the segment of you being carried out,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't really provide all the context of what
Speaker 1: led up to it. So if you could walk us
Speaker 1: through exactly what happened, what you did to quote unquote
Speaker 1: provoke this response, your response to their response, et cetera.
Speaker 1: But let's begin setting up what was going down before
Speaker 1: you were literally removed from the meeting. If you could,
Speaker 1: it helps us with some context of exactly what went on.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I've been to a lot of meetings with
Speaker 2: a lot of different public elected officials. I have never
Speaker 2: ever seen anything like this. This was you know, I
Speaker 2: visited the White House. I think it was easier than
Speaker 2: this getting in. You know, when you when you drove
Speaker 2: into the venue, you were stopped at the entrance by
Speaker 2: one of Lawler's staff members who required that you produced
Speaker 2: the QR code that was sent to us to get in.
Speaker 2: It was essentially the ticket to show that we had
Speaker 2: in fact been registered for the event. We did that,
Speaker 2: then we parked and we had to stand in a
Speaker 2: line in the rain. They made us wait in the
Speaker 2: rain and then opened the doors, and in order to
Speaker 2: get in, you had to produce that QR code one
Speaker 2: more time and then show an ID that showed that
Speaker 2: you were a resident of the district, and that was
Speaker 2: to also a lawler staffer who also had a list
Speaker 2: of all of us. I think it was checking us off.
Speaker 2: Then you walked into the venue and we were wanded
Speaker 2: as though we were going to a concert. Then we
Speaker 2: had to go to a table and give our name.
Speaker 2: They found us on their list, checked us off, gave
Speaker 2: us like a little raffle ticket, and tore off the
Speaker 2: other piece and put our first initial and our last
Speaker 2: name on that piece and put it in a little
Speaker 2: barrel that was used to pick out the questioners from
Speaker 2: And a member of the press later told me that
Speaker 2: the reason why they did that was the press would
Speaker 2: not be able to contact questioners afterwards because they would
Speaker 2: not have their full names. So I was called as
Speaker 2: e Finer, not Emily Finer. How would they know who
Speaker 2: I was? And then we still are not done yet, Frank,
Speaker 2: because then you had to walk towards the door to
Speaker 2: get into the auditorium, and there was this huge stand
Speaker 2: up sign with rules for the event, and those rules
Speaker 2: were no standing up, no taking pictures, no taking video,
Speaker 2: no taking audio, be polite, no calling out things that
Speaker 2: clearly indicated that Mike, congressperson wasn't there to hear the
Speaker 2: concerns of his constituents. He was there to try to
Speaker 2: have a controlled event that he could use to promote himself.
Speaker 2: Because anybody who's watching the news or looking at social media,
Speaker 2: or or you know, driving down the street, quite frankly
Speaker 2: knows that the electorate is not happy. That people are
Speaker 2: pretty angry, they are frightened, and they need to know
Speaker 2: that Congress is going to do their job of oversight.
Speaker 2: And he didn't want to hear that. That was pretty clear,
Speaker 2: so that there were these there were these rules, and
Speaker 2: you had to verbally say to his staff person, yes,
Speaker 2: I agree to the rules, and they would not let
Speaker 2: you in unless you said that.
Speaker 1: It was really people. People can't see my jaw dropp
Speaker 1: It was chilling. The only stream my George just hit
Speaker 1: the floor.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was. It was chilling. It was intimidating. It
Speaker 2: was clearly meant to tell.
Speaker 1: Everybody you will, you will toe them.
Speaker 2: Are absolutely, then it's not over yet. We were not
Speaker 2: allowed to go find our seats. We had to be
Speaker 2: escorted to seats by another lawlor staffer, so they knew
Speaker 2: exactly where people were seated. People reported to me that
Speaker 2: these staffers, random staffers who they did not know, knew
Speaker 2: their first names. They were clearly sitting people where they
Speaker 2: wanted them and assigning their staffers to keep an eye
Speaker 2: on us. That I mean, I truly believe that. And
Speaker 2: Aaron Crowley was my staffer who was on me from
Speaker 2: the beginning of the eating gave me two warnings right away.
Speaker 2: And I wasn't calling out Frank. I mean, I may
Speaker 2: have had a raised voice, but I kept saying to
Speaker 2: the people around me, my husband, my friend, you know,
Speaker 2: oh my god, he's not answering the questions. I was
Speaker 2: not screaming and yelling.
Speaker 1: You were involved in effuse, Okay, I was exclaiming, yeah,
Speaker 1: as I would be.
Speaker 2: You know, there's four layers of security at this at
Speaker 2: this event. There are the lawlor staffers, There are the
Speaker 2: somers police who were managing the traffic in and out
Speaker 2: of the venue. There were private security, and there were
Speaker 2: the New York State troopers. Mister Lawler is very scared
Speaker 2: of his constituents, that's all I can I can imagine. So,
Speaker 2: and if you're scared of your constituents, you probably don't
Speaker 2: respect them a whole lot. So the event they started
Speaker 2: asking questions. They rolled the little barrel that they had
Speaker 2: put all the little tickets in. The first questioner, surprisingly
Speaker 2: was my husband, and he was not prepared to answer
Speaker 2: your question or ask a question. And he got up
Speaker 2: and he did ask a question, and Congressman Lawler, I
Speaker 2: guess he answered Chris's question, I think. And then there
Speaker 2: were a few other questions, and there was this pattern of,
Speaker 2: you know, him taking the question and then pivoting to
Speaker 2: what he wanted to talk about, so never really quite
Speaker 2: answering the questioner's points, and people were calling him on it,
Speaker 2: and people were yelling and saying, you know, you didn't
Speaker 2: answer the question, or what about the second part, that
Speaker 2: kind of thing, and he stopped at one point and said, okay,
Speaker 2: I'll answer the second part, So you know, he was
Speaker 2: aware that people were upset about that. I was then
Speaker 2: called I was like the fourth or fifth questioner. I
Speaker 2: was called. I stood up, I asked the question. You
Speaker 2: saw the question. I told you I didn't have a
Speaker 2: question prepared, which is true. So when they called my name,
Speaker 2: I turned to my friends and I said I don't
Speaker 2: have a question, and a friend of mine said, I
Speaker 2: have one, you want it? I said yes, So you know,
Speaker 2: it was a great question, but I am not going
Speaker 2: to take responsibility for it because I did not write
Speaker 2: that question, but I asked it, and it was, what's
Speaker 2: your red line? What will it finally take for you
Speaker 2: to exercise your constitutional duty of oversight against a lawless administration?
Speaker 2: And he didn't answer that. He spoke nothing about what
Speaker 2: his red line would be when he would be willing
Speaker 2: to shut this down. He talked about the appropriations process
Speaker 2: because that's what he wanted to talk about. And I
Speaker 2: think that that's about his line that he voted for
Speaker 2: the budget, but it doesn't even mention Medicaid and Social
Speaker 2: Security and he's going to get the salt and you
Speaker 2: know all that stuff. So everybody at that point was
Speaker 2: groaning and exclaiming, including me, and I said, answer the question.
Speaker 2: And I did call out when I said answer the question.
Speaker 2: But I want to be really clear. My behavior was
Speaker 2: consistent with the behavior of eighty to ninety percent of
Speaker 2: the people in that hall. And I was not nearly
Speaker 2: as loud as most of them, and I was not
Speaker 2: as profane. I wasn't cursing, I wasn't I wasn't, you.
Speaker 1: Know, hysterical. It wasn't like a screaming, angry, hysterical voice.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't describe.
Speaker 2: It as he's not answering the question. That's how I
Speaker 2: said it.
Speaker 1: Okay, right there, Why do you think then you were single?
Speaker 1: We have to find out what happened. But obviously, but
Speaker 1: continuing then, I want to ask that question, why a
Speaker 1: bar of all people, with so many people calling out,
Speaker 1: why you? But but please continue with the process. Then
Speaker 1: what happened?
Speaker 2: So my question was over. He didn't answer it. The
Speaker 2: next person asked a question. It was about terriffs, and
Speaker 2: at that point Congressman Lawler said something to the effect of,
Speaker 2: you need to understand the tariffs only impact the cost
Speaker 2: of imported goods. They don't affect the cost of domestic goods.
Speaker 2: And everybody in the place was like groaning and calling out,
Speaker 2: and I said, oh my god, he doesn't even understand
Speaker 2: basic economics in a voice like that. But Aaron Crowley
Speaker 2: was standing right near me and said, that's it. You've
Speaker 2: been warned twice. This is your third time. You're out
Speaker 2: of here. And I said, you are talking, Why are
Speaker 2: you picking on you? I'm an I'm trying to think
Speaker 2: what I said. There's something to the effect of, why
Speaker 2: are you picking on a Jewish woman? You're a anti
Speaker 2: semon Yeah, yes, yeah, please yes. And I said that
Speaker 2: because two friends of mine, who were older Jewish women,
Speaker 2: were at the Rockland event the week before and told
Speaker 2: me that they had been asked or told to leave
Speaker 2: by a lawler staffer. And they said to the lawler staffer,
Speaker 2: why are you only targeting Jews, Because like they had
Speaker 2: seen who they were carrying, you know, asking to leave,
Speaker 2: and they were mostly Jews. So I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: I had that little data point in my head and
Speaker 2: I and that's so I said that to her. Well
Speaker 2: then she was like, you accuse me of being an
Speaker 2: anti semi. You need to leave. And then she called
Speaker 2: the security people over and she said, she's calling me names,
Speaker 2: all kinds of names. I said, she was an anti Semita.
Speaker 2: I did not call her names, but the private security
Speaker 2: folks asked me to and I said no, repeatedly. This happened,
Speaker 2: and you see this on the video. They said they
Speaker 2: would have to get the police. I said, get the police,
Speaker 2: but I'm not leaving. And then the New York State
Speaker 2: troopers came and asked me to leave, and I refused
Speaker 2: to do that, and then they picked me up and
Speaker 2: I went limp, and they carried me out of there,
Speaker 2: and I threw up a couple of peace signs.
Speaker 1: What was your thinking? If you can remember, what was
Speaker 1: your mindset at that moment when you're literally be bodily
Speaker 1: removed from this place by five burly guys. What's going
Speaker 1: through your head?
Speaker 2: Well? You know, as I said to someone else, when
Speaker 2: you are an adult, it's never a good thing. When
Speaker 2: you're being picked up like it means you've either had
Speaker 2: an accident, you know, something bad has happened, and it's
Speaker 2: really disconcerting to lose control of your body like that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I had no say in what they were
Speaker 2: doing to me, so I think what it happened so quickly,
Speaker 2: it's really hard to remember what was going through my head.
Speaker 2: I think mostly it was disbelief.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 2: You know, I just remember at one point they got
Speaker 2: me down to the aisle that went out of the auditorium,
Speaker 2: and that's when I saw this huge telephoto lens, you know,
Speaker 2: sticking out at me, and I realized that there was
Speaker 2: somebody photographing this, and quite frankly, I was mortified at that.
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, this is going to be terrible.
Speaker 1: I'm not in the best position, literally.
Speaker 2: Not at all. It was pretty mortifying. And then and
Speaker 2: then they brought me out and they sat me on
Speaker 2: the ground and told me to leave the building and that.
Speaker 1: It ended there. There was no arrest or anything, no
Speaker 1: charges after.
Speaker 2: That or well passing, and that I should leave. So
Speaker 2: I was really calm inside the thing. Once they got
Speaker 2: me out, I got a little more salty, and I was,
Speaker 2: you know, exclaiming about Nazis and fascism I think again,
Speaker 2: not yelling, but just sort of like yeah, mumbling, and
Speaker 2: they told me to leave, that I was trespassing. I
Speaker 2: refused to leave a few times. People around me were
Speaker 2: clearly hoping I would leave, including my husband, I think,
Speaker 2: and a friend of mine was in There is an attorney.
Speaker 2: He came out and said, Emily, just leave, like you
Speaker 2: made your point. Go So we went to dinner, which
Speaker 2: was actually better than going to jail, so good.
Speaker 1: Fair enough. We ever frightened, we ever actually frightened at all,
Speaker 1: either physically or maybe emotionally, that this could really lead
Speaker 1: to serious things? Will you ever frightened dur the event
Speaker 1: or after first drawing? And then we'll talk a little
Speaker 1: bit about it after. I want to talk about the
Speaker 1: after effect.
Speaker 2: I think I was frightened when they picked me up,
Speaker 2: would they drop me? You know, would they hurt me?
Speaker 1: So there was some physical thing.
Speaker 2: I don't think I was fearful. I think I was
Speaker 2: more like determined. I just knew that I had done
Speaker 2: nothing to deserve to be thrown out of there, and
Speaker 2: I knew it was wrong. So it wasn't hard to
Speaker 2: sort of say, no, let's talk.
Speaker 1: Of the after effect now. And you mentioned viral. You
Speaker 1: became the definition of viral almost overnight, as I said,
Speaker 1: interviews came over, Robert Reich interviewed you, some very heavyweight
Speaker 1: people internationally. Was it was seen, it was discussed. Talk
Speaker 1: about that as an experience. First, did you expect it?
Speaker 1: And then what was it like once it happened?
Speaker 2: Boy, No, I didn't expect to go viral like that, no.
Speaker 2: I you know, Jennifer Cabrera, who is the person who
Speaker 2: was so smart and realized that she needed to video
Speaker 2: what they were doing to me, was carried out after me,
Speaker 2: and you know, she's gotten like very little media attention.
Speaker 2: And that's an interesting thing to me because Jennifer is
Speaker 2: a Dominican younger woman who has brown skin. I'm wondering why.
Speaker 2: I'm actually not wondering why she wasn't also going viral.
Speaker 2: But I think it's really important to mention that this
Speaker 2: doesn't happen without Jennifer and her quick thinking. And because
Speaker 2: she is the chair of the Westchester Putnam Working Families Party,
Speaker 2: she's a co chair, she was able to get that
Speaker 2: video to their comms team, who put it out really quick.
Speaker 2: So I started getting messages and there were people in
Speaker 2: the hall who knew me right. So very early on,
Speaker 2: one of the members of the Indivisible Steering Committee texted
Speaker 2: to somebody else on the Indivisible Steering Committee, Emily Finer
Speaker 2: just got carried out of the Lawlor town Hall. That
Speaker 2: person was at an event in Rockland County with one
Speaker 2: of my closest friends hands her the phone and so
Speaker 2: I got a text when I was still inside the
Speaker 2: building that said, oh my god, did you just get
Speaker 2: carried out of the Lawlor town Hall.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So that's when I sort of knew people are going
Speaker 2: to know about this. I knew that it would get press,
Speaker 2: I didn't know how much. And while I am mostly retired,
Speaker 2: I do maintain a small private psychotherapy practice. So my
Speaker 2: immediate concern was for my patients, because you know, therapists
Speaker 2: should have some anonymity. It's not about us, it's about
Speaker 2: the people we're trying to help, and our personalities and
Speaker 2: our political beliefs certainly are not the focus of treatment, right,
Speaker 2: So I was concerned about how this would impact them.
Speaker 2: I woke up Monday morning to a text from one
Speaker 2: of my patients with my picture saying is this you?
Speaker 1: Wow?
Speaker 2: So I responded with yes thoughts with a question mark,
Speaker 2: and the response came back pretty quickly. I am so
Speaker 2: proud you are my therapist. The next patient I saw
Speaker 2: was on Tuesday morning, and I do my work, you know,
Speaker 2: through telehealth, and so it's on video and when and
Speaker 2: the next patient came into my room, he said, oh,
Speaker 2: you made bail, so I knew he was okay, and
Speaker 2: that sort of I don't have many patients, it's really
Speaker 2: part time. So that sort of repeated itself over the week.
Speaker 2: A couple of people hadn't seen it at all. I
Speaker 2: didn't mention it. I mean I assume they didn't see it.
Speaker 2: They didn't mention it. I didn't mention it. So I
Speaker 2: was somewhat relieved about that, but then the call started
Speaker 2: coming and you know, I have no media like experience.
Speaker 2: I don't know how to do all this, and that
Speaker 2: was really weird. And then the Facebook posts, the Blue Sky, Twitter,
Speaker 2: the Instagram.
Speaker 1: Overwhelming overwhelming low of information.
Speaker 2: Wow, and people can find you, you know, like it's
Speaker 2: not hard. People were calling me on my cell phone.
Speaker 2: It was crazy, but I've met some wonderful people, like
Speaker 2: one of the people who called me was the Yippie
Speaker 2: pie thrower, the guy who like pied William F. Buckley
Speaker 2: and Anita Bryant.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, well no, could you? Would you say overall
Speaker 1: the feedback has been positive or negative? Can you is
Speaker 1: there a percentage? Could you say? Seventy percent positive? Mostly positive?
Speaker 1: What do you think.
Speaker 2: So you have to seek out I would have to
Speaker 2: seek out the negative, I think, you know. So my
Speaker 2: direct messages through these platforms have almost uniformly been good.
Speaker 2: There was one person who wrote, LOL, You're an a hole. Okay,
Speaker 2: that's fine, and I haven't gotten any other messages like
Speaker 2: that directly to me. My friends have sometimes sent me
Speaker 2: links to things that people have said online that are
Speaker 2: really critical, and on Blue Sky they've been very critical
Speaker 2: of me because they found some of my old posts,
Speaker 2: one of which was that I didn't vote for Kamala
Speaker 2: Harris in New York State. I wrote in Hindra jab
Speaker 2: for president because I knew I lived in a safe
Speaker 2: blue state and I could do that. And so I'm
Speaker 2: excotiated there as a racist and having voted, you know,
Speaker 2: to advance my ego or something. That's interesting. But somebody
Speaker 2: sent me a post to a Rockland County page where
Speaker 2: people were being very critical of me, and somebody said,
Speaker 2: you don't know her. I do, She's a good person
Speaker 2: or whatever. And then somebody who I had known since childhood,
Speaker 2: who I knew I did not share political views with,
Speaker 2: but who I shared a friendship with and had a
Speaker 2: connection with around some similar hardships we had both had
Speaker 2: as younger people. And that person said, I've known her
Speaker 2: for a long time. She's really problematic. Her father was
Speaker 2: not a good person, you know, sort of that kind
Speaker 2: of thing. And I was really shocked that, you know,
Speaker 2: I never would have done that to her. And I
Speaker 2: was shocked as somebody who I considered, again not an
Speaker 2: ally politically, but certainly a friend with a long, deep history,
Speaker 2: who not good friends, but always interested in how we
Speaker 2: were doing, always pleasant to one another when we saw
Speaker 2: each other. For someone like that to do that, I realized, Wow,
Speaker 2: that's that really says something about our culture and our
Speaker 2: society and where we're at now and how we disagree.
Speaker 2: And it made me reflect on how I disagree with people,
Speaker 2: and I don't ever want to do that to someone,
Speaker 2: So I'm going to be really careful in the future.
Speaker 1: Interesting, I want to talk about that in a little
Speaker 1: bit more detail too, But you mentioned social media and
Speaker 1: some of the postings, and I or a local post
Speaker 1: from a local citizen too that was a cartoon of
Speaker 1: you being carried and the people in the background were
Speaker 1: wearing T shirts that said hate on them. Obviously, cartooning
Speaker 1: is to be and to push the envelope, but when
Speaker 1: you see something like that, how do you respond.
Speaker 2: Well, that particular cartoon was so over the top outrageous, Like,
Speaker 2: you know, they have this picture carrying me out, they
Speaker 2: age me quite a bit, and they put a crown
Speaker 2: of thorns around my head. You know. Really, that to
Speaker 2: me was so hyperbolic, And of course the hate lawler
Speaker 2: T shirts were hyperbolic. I don't think that the crowd
Speaker 2: came there because of some visceral hate for Lawler. I
Speaker 2: think the crowd came there because they wanted to implore
Speaker 2: him to do his job to protect them from from
Speaker 2: Musk and Trump and all the harm they're doing to
Speaker 2: our country. And you know, it was really reductive and
Speaker 2: it was clearly meant to incite. And I think that's
Speaker 2: you know, it's a playbook from Trump at all, and
Speaker 2: they've all learned it really well.
Speaker 1: How can we make this a so called positive i e.
Speaker 1: Learning experience? What positive can we ultimately take out of
Speaker 1: this action?
Speaker 2: I think I think the most important thing that people
Speaker 2: got from this was that even normal, everyday people who
Speaker 2: have no power. I have no power, I have no platform,
Speaker 2: can make a difference if you stand up. You know,
Speaker 2: I've gotten so many messages that said, you know, thank
Speaker 2: you for what you did, and now I realized that
Speaker 2: I could be doing more. I am. Probably the best
Speaker 2: experience after this was yesterday I showed up to work
Speaker 2: my shift at sup Angels, the local soup kitchen and
Speaker 2: Nayak and.
Speaker 1: They, I'm a terrible person. Now you're even volunteering to
Speaker 1: feed hungry people. How awful?
Speaker 2: I know. I'm the worst, just the worst. So there
Speaker 2: I walk in and this woman comes up to me
Speaker 2: who I do not know. I've never seen there before,
Speaker 2: seen her there before, because you know, the volunteers changed
Speaker 2: depending on the day and availability and stuff. And she goes,
Speaker 2: are you the woman who you know? And I said, yes,
Speaker 2: I am, and she said thank you very much. And
Speaker 2: then this younger woman came up who looked like she
Speaker 2: was probably in high school to me, and the first
Speaker 2: woman says to me, this is my daughter. And she
Speaker 2: saw you too, and she recognized you when you came in.
Speaker 2: And this young woman, I think she must have been
Speaker 2: like sixteen, seventeen eighteen, I don't know how old she was,
Speaker 2: she said thank you. You really were an inspiration to me.
Speaker 2: And I was like, well, you know, my work here
Speaker 2: is done. That to me was the best response I
Speaker 2: had gotten, that this young woman could gain inspiration from
Speaker 2: my act.
Speaker 1: Has it changed your life? And if so, this event
Speaker 1: house up you hinted at it just now with your
Speaker 1: new empathy, a new found empathy. Expand on that a
Speaker 1: little bit. How has it changed your life?
Speaker 2: It reminded me of community. I would say, you know,
Speaker 2: I have lived in Nyak most of my life and
Speaker 2: Nike's a really small community in Rockland County is really small.
Speaker 2: Everybody knows everybody. I've been around a long time. There
Speaker 2: are times I think that I get frustrated with and
Speaker 2: sort of you know, I'm just over it, you know.
Speaker 2: I often say about when people say how wonderful it is, like, oh,
Speaker 2: I've been too long at the fair, you know, I've
Speaker 2: just seen so much. My mother owned a business here
Speaker 2: for fifty years, you know. But it was great that
Speaker 2: my community had my back, including people who I had
Speaker 2: been sort of at onced with, you know, Indivisible Rockland.
Speaker 2: They certainly did me there, but once I went there
Speaker 2: and did that, they had my back. They were really supportive.
Speaker 2: So we can disagree on some things, but we all
Speaker 2: know that we have to stand together against this kind
Speaker 2: of tyranny. And we all know that it's not okay
Speaker 2: to have our fellow community members dragged out of a
Speaker 2: town hall for asking questions of their elected officials. And
Speaker 2: I really appreciate my community. It's always sort of interesting
Speaker 2: to me how time brings around a reminder that you
Speaker 2: know what, this is your community, and they're pretty awesome.
Speaker 2: So that was good. It also made me think about
Speaker 2: how I have responded to people I don't really know,
Speaker 2: and how I've made assumptions about them and who they
Speaker 2: are and what they believe. And you know, I know
Speaker 2: that everybody has a story and you can always find
Speaker 2: a path to empathy for anybody, and I need to
Speaker 2: be more open to that, and I'm going to work
Speaker 2: on that because that's certainly what I wished people had
Speaker 2: held for me, more space to know who I was
Speaker 2: and what motivated me.
Speaker 1: Wow, this has been fascinating, Emily find it. Really we
Speaker 1: had a little bit more to go. Were going to
Speaker 1: take a quick break. I'm sure what he is enjoying it.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit more to go. So I don't
Speaker 1: want anybody to go anywhere just yet. This is Being
Speaker 1: Frank the Intelligent Conversation podcast and I'm your host, Frank Lobono.
Speaker 1: We're back with more right after these brief commercial messages.
Speaker 1: Please don't go anywhere yet.
Speaker 3: This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
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Speaker 2: This is Hudson River Radio dot com. This is Hudson
Speaker 2: River Radio dot com. This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Being Frank the Intelligent conversation podcast. Thanks
Speaker 1: for sticking with us. Of course, I'm your host, Frank
Speaker 1: Lebono and our engineer as always as mister Neil Richter.
Speaker 1: You know, we bring our audience a fresh topic just
Speaker 1: about every week and stream from Hudson River Radio, located
Speaker 1: in beautiful and historic Stony Point, New York. But remember
Speaker 1: you can catch Being Frank anywhere you get your favorite podcasts,
Speaker 1: and because every Being Frank is archived, you can listen
Speaker 1: to any of our programs anytime you like. Find a
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Speaker 1: the icon, click and you're there. Right back to our
Speaker 1: conversation with Emily Finer. I've been calling her the new
Speaker 1: voice of for Nack's First Amendment rights, and we've had
Speaker 1: a wonderful conversation. I want to continue it, Emily, and
Speaker 1: you've mentioned some of it going up to this point,
Speaker 1: But what are your most serious concerns going forward?
Speaker 2: Democracy? I mean, I truly believe American democracy is gone
Speaker 2: at this point. I mean, I wonder can we put
Speaker 2: Humpty Dumpty back together again? Even if we were able
Speaker 2: to end this unconstitutional mess we're in. I worry about
Speaker 2: the future of this. I worry about my children living
Speaker 2: under a totalitarian dictatorship, an anti democratic regime, and what
Speaker 2: will happen to them, and what will happen to the
Speaker 2: world when when the United States is no longer the
Speaker 2: leading power proposing a sort of ideal of liberal democracy.
Speaker 2: I mean, we we've never lived up to our promise,
Speaker 2: but we've always tried to evolve in that direction, and
Speaker 2: now we are no longer evolving in that direction. Now
Speaker 2: we've got an administration that believes in the unitary executive,
Speaker 2: and we've got a Congress that is unwilling to check that,
Speaker 2: even though that is a you know, a made up
Speaker 2: legal doctrine by the Heritage Foundation lawyers who made it
Speaker 2: up so they could they could impose their will on America.
Speaker 2: I'm frightened of Christian nationalism, and certainly my congressman has
Speaker 2: adopted many of the tactics of Christian nationalism, including, you know,
Speaker 2: hijacking my identity as a Jewish woman, so that he
Speaker 2: talks a great game about anti Semitism, but in so
Speaker 2: doing exposes his own anti semitism as he sort of
Speaker 2: just makes Jews into one indistinguishable mound of people who
Speaker 2: all believe the same thing. We are not. We are
Speaker 2: a diverse people and there are you know, in the
Speaker 2: diaspora in America. You know, there are many Jews like
Speaker 2: myself who are unhappy be with what Israel is doing,
Speaker 2: who don't support Israel, who are crying out for peace
Speaker 2: in Gaza, in the West Bank and Palestinian liberation. And
Speaker 2: mister Lawler wants to make it illegal for people to
Speaker 2: do that. That to me is incredibly anti Semitic. And
Speaker 2: I think it's really important that people be allowed to
Speaker 2: advocate for peace of all things, without being accused of
Speaker 2: being a terrorist or supporting terrorists.
Speaker 1: Emily, and we've discussed it during the break too. You
Speaker 1: know how natural conversation can flow when you have respect
Speaker 1: for one another in each other's opinions. Ours tend to
Speaker 1: be like minded. One of the criticisms I get is
Speaker 1: most of my guests tend to be like minded. That
Speaker 1: is what it is. I'm willing to have an open
Speaker 1: conversation with anyone who's will to have it. But how
Speaker 1: do we get to it. We've becoming more fractured by
Speaker 1: the day, not less. How will we overcome that you
Speaker 1: have any thoughts. I know it's cut maybe a rhetorical question,
Speaker 1: but what are your thoughts on that? How can it
Speaker 1: be done?
Speaker 2: You know there are people who are doing this. I
Speaker 2: can't remember the name of the organization, but here in Rockland,
Speaker 2: I know that. I think it's Allan Stein and Hutter
Speaker 2: Humr I think is his last name. They've been going
Speaker 2: around as a Palestinian and a Jew talking about how
Speaker 2: we talk to one another. I think, you know, there
Speaker 2: are The New York Times has that thing they do
Speaker 2: where they have all their columnists of different points of
Speaker 2: view addressing one thing and talking to one another. So
Speaker 2: people are modeling how to disagree without being disagreeable. I
Speaker 2: guess I think tensions and passions are so high right
Speaker 2: now that's really hard. But I also think it's a
Speaker 2: lot easier to be respectful to someone when they're right
Speaker 2: in front of you and you're talking to them and
Speaker 2: you're looking in their eyes. I think that when you're
Speaker 2: doing this over social media, it is much easier to
Speaker 2: be really rude and say terrible things to people. And
Speaker 2: you know, somebody said, you know, never say anything on
Speaker 2: social media you wouldn't say to someone's face. And I
Speaker 2: think that's probably a pretty good rule. You know, if
Speaker 2: you wouldn't say it to my face, don't say it
Speaker 2: on social media either.
Speaker 1: Fair enough? Yeah, what is the future for Emily fire Hoole?
Speaker 1: What does it look like for you? Now that's your
Speaker 1: media celebrity. You've been on being Frank. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: what else is there?
Speaker 2: I've reached the pinnacle.
Speaker 1: Honest question. What does your future look like? What do
Speaker 1: you plan on doing?
Speaker 2: Certainly, you know, I plan on continuing to work for
Speaker 2: the country that I want to be in. You know,
Speaker 2: I will continue to organize, I will continue to show up,
Speaker 2: I will continue to speak out. I will fade back
Speaker 2: into obscurity and no longer will my phone ring and
Speaker 2: ring and ring, and I'll be able to enjoy my
Speaker 2: family and maybe travel a little and continue my work
Speaker 2: with my patients. I don't think that this will I
Speaker 2: think this will be something I'll look back on fondly,
Speaker 2: and I hope my kids will look back on it fondly,
Speaker 2: and I will just be here to be a part
Speaker 2: of the movement that shuts down fascism in America.
Speaker 1: And we find we want to thank you for being Frank.
Speaker 1: Right here with your intelligent conversation. Really appreciate it. This
Speaker 1: was great. I can't wait to hear the whole thing again.
Speaker 1: This is great.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thank you, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 2: And thank you Neil.
Speaker 1: Of course you are for special thanks to our listeners
Speaker 1: who take time to go so voice in their lives.
Speaker 1: Remember we offer a fresh topic just about every week.
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Speaker 1: us and leave us a comment too. Of course, I
Speaker 1: always give you two last little treats at the end,
Speaker 1: the slogan that we think is appropriate, and some good
Speaker 1: local music from some great local musicians. First, of course,
Speaker 1: we've got to go. We talked about making good trouble,
Speaker 1: so we got to go to John Lewis and he said,
Speaker 1: do not get lost in the sea of despair. Be hopeful,
Speaker 1: be optimistic. Our struggles not the struggle of a day,
Speaker 1: a week, a month, or a year. It's the struggle
Speaker 1: of a lifetime. Never ever be afraid to make some
Speaker 1: noise and get in good trouble. Necessary trouble I think
Speaker 1: Emily Finder understands that word for word. Okay, here's some
Speaker 1: closing music. It's from the Scoop. They're absolutely terrific and
Speaker 1: very appropriate music called raise your hands for Engineer and
Speaker 1: Neil Rictor. I'm your host, Frank Lopono. We hope to
Speaker 1: have you join us on the next being. Frank, We're
Speaker 1: the only way to be is Frank.
Speaker 4: Thanks everybody, and tell you why.
Speaker 3: J sz be can GESSI.
Speaker 2: Raise your handsle.
Speaker 3: Praise your handso raise, y'all said, yeah me raiseel said
Speaker 3: the strain may where is day? And don't speaker? Let
Speaker 3: me when they come. Rachel ansle, ratel ansle RASI raid yalla,
Speaker 3: raise hand, raise j'allad mais y'all handle?
Speaker 2: This is Hudson River Radio dot com