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Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,

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an idea.

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Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through.

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Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If

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I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,

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not because I put my hand on a book and

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made a wish and working together for a more rational world.

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Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.

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Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way.

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Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the

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Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.

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Speaker 2: Just a quick note, I find this interesting, kind of

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amusing about the conversation you're going to hear, which was

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recorded on the tenth of September. Now, this was the

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morning of the presidential debate that everybody's been talking about.

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And there's a section in the last I don't know

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third of the interview where we talked about Taylor Swift

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and will she go public and make an official announcement

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about her support of a candidate? You know, is she

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going to unleash the whirlwind? Right? This was the morning

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of the debate. On the heels of the debate, Taylor

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Swift made a public announcement that she was supporting Kamala Harris.

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I mean it was the same day, so you're going

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to hear that reference in the conversation. It was weird.

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It's almost like we made it happen. We conjured it,

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we called it down from the cosmos. But I was

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amused at the coincidence. You will hear that and a

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compelling conversation between myself and an ex vangelical turned activist.

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I hope you enjoy. She was a believer for many years,

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she deconstructed, busted out, and now she is speaking out.

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She and I had a chance to co host the

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Sunday Show on the Line not too long ago, and

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I knew I had to have her on this channel

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as well. You know her as Eve was framed. I'll

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call you Eve. Good to have you perfect.

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Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited. That

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was such a good time hosting the show together, and

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I'm just glad to get to talk some more.

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Speaker 2: I heard that our styles kind of complimented each other.

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We're both, you know, pretty kind but direct. I think

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we had, you know, some wild cards on the switchboard.

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Their calls are a little different than mine. You know,

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there's some interesting ones, and then there were some wacky ones,

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and some of the arguments for God just make every

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brain cell scream and pain. You've heard some wacky ones,

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I know, and you're journey as well. Just I'll put

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you on the spot, off the top of your head.

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Some of the arguments proving hashtag proving God. That make

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you crazy?

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Speaker 3: Oh man, I mean, look at the trees. Notoriously is

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my least favorite. And I mean I get that comment

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multiple times a week.

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Speaker 2: Now, explain look at the trees, though, I forgive the interruption,

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but flesh it out. For those who don't know what

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that means.

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Speaker 3: Well, you'll say, you know, there's no evidence for a god,

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and then they'll come back with but look at the trees.

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Have you seen the trees? I'm like, what are you?

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Are you talking about some poison ivy over there? Is

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that supposed to be an indicator of a loving creator God.

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It's just that one gets really old because it's so

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easily refuted. But there's that, then there's people, the people

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that have the whole will it's my truth, so that

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makes it that makes it true, which is just not

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an argument at all. I get tired of the unoriginal

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easily the ones that we've all talked about a million times.

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It's fun when somebody every now and then has a

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new argument. Somebody recently said something about Ai is going

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to be God in the future, and that was their

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argument for proving of God. And at least that's fun

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to discuss. But the look at the trees over that one.

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Speaker 2: It's so beautiful out there, the leaves and the clouds

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and all of the beauty. And I think it's amazing

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to be able to see and acknowledge the beauty. But

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you're right. Was it Stephen Fry who said, we also

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we have to talk about bone cancer and children and

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those types of things. The planet was any further or

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closer to the Sun, we'd all fried, so it must

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have been placed at divine hand stock the Earth right

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here when it's orbit. Blah blah blah. I'm interested in

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your Monika. The name of your channel, Eve was framed.

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I'm going to get to Eve, but can we start

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with Lilith? Have you done any speaking about Lilith?

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Speaker 3: I you know I haven't. It's funny because when I

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first started Eve was framed, the immediate response was, what

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about Lilith, and I had never even heard about Lilith

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because of course I only grew up with the evangelical Bible,

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and so I read about that story and it's so

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fascinating and really an interesting story. But yeah, I feel

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like Lilith deserves some of her own attention. Somebody needs

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to start. Lilith was framed, although Lilith wasn't really framed.

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Lilith was just kind of a badass.

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Speaker 2: She just said screw it and yeah. Left For those

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who aren't aware, some Christian traditions have Lilith as the

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actual first wife of Adam. She came pre Eve, but

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uh oh, she was sexually liberated. I think some stories

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say that when she had sex, she liked to be

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on top. She took what she wants, you know, she

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was just the totally liberated woman. Well, God wasn't going

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to have any of that, which is weird because if

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God created Lilith, he would have created the characteristics and

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personality of Lilith. Why would you have been surprised? And

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so ultimately she went out and I think she became

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mother to a bunch of demon spawn or something. And

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then God made Eve, and then Eve got framed. All right,

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explained it for us, would you?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was. I can't take credit because I

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think in the seventies some women started using that slogan

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for the feminist movement. But when I was sitting there

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creating my Instagram account three years ago, I was just like,

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what do I want to call this? I was going

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to stay anonymous. And there's something That's always run through

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my head, even while I was a Christian, which is

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that Eve was framed. I always felt that she was

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put in a position where she had no choice but

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to do what she did and cause the downfall of man,

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because that must have been destined by God. Right, if

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he knows everything, if he knew the choices that Eve

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was going to make before he even created her, then

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he knew when he put her in the garden with

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that tree that she was going to eat the fruit.

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And that, you know, years later, I would be told

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any problem in my life can be traced back to Eve.

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I was constantly told like, oh, you're not feeling well

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this time of month, It's Eve's fault. Oh you know

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you have got your heart broken by a boy, Well,

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it's Eve's fault because you want to submit to a man.

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You know, everything was traced back to Eve, and evangelicals

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like to say, oh, well, it's Eve and Adam's fault,

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but if you really get down to the culture of it,

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Eve is heavily blamed because of this patriarchal hierarchy, and

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that's why I decided to go with Eve was framed.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting that the Book of Genesis says there will

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be pain and childbirth because of Eve, and the reason

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you desire for a husband will be because of Eve's curse.

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My sisters were actually talked to this. It's hard to believe,

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but Mom actually said, well, you know, the reason it's

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going to hurt in the delivery room is because Eve failed,

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and the reason you will want sex. I don't know

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why they told me the story, but they did. It

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was weird, but I was like, the mom said, what, yes,

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the reason that we would want to have sax Mom

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because they happened to not agree with this, but it

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was just wacky. And so a victim blaming starts right

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there at the Foundational Book of the Foundational Book of

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the Bible, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely well. I was trying to point out, like,

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why why is it I was talking about childbirth too.

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Some lady in my life at one point when I

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was a teenager and I was saying, why is it

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that it's that our pelvises are not designed very well

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for giving birth, thinking like why did God do that?

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She's like, oh, well, God changed that once the curs happen.

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That's wild of all things. Why would God go and

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do that?

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Speaker 2: I don't wait, wait, hang on you hang on. God

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narrowed the hips as a form as a punitive messare.

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Speaker 3: Exactly that's the punishment because Eve ate a fruit snack

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one time, So now our hicks are having problems.

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Speaker 2: You make it sound like a fruit roll up you

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pick up at the you know, you know, I hear that.

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Congratulations are in order. I saw the first on Facebook.

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You want to explain what I'm talking about?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so funny. I'm having to rewire my brain

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again from all of my purity culture, evangelical and doctrination

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because I think I swung the pendulum so hard. I

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was like, I'm never getting married again. I had some

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really painful divorces because I was taught to get married

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very young, and so I had the opportunity to experience

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multiple divorces in my twenties, and now I'm lucky enough

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to be in a partnership where I'm engaged, we're getting married.

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We were very pragmatic people. We also love each other

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very much, so there's the romantic aspect in the social construct.

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But I was able to say yes to something that

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I think it's only going to benefit my life right now,

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and I'm really excited for that next phase of life.

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Speaker 2: Can we peel back the layers a little bit on that. Yeah,

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I didn't mean to walk over you there. I thought

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I heard the end of a sentence. My fault, But

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I was thinking, if you got married young, it's probably

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because of that biblical command, right, I mean, don't let

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lust burn in your heart. It is better to marry. Right,

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So if you don't jump into the marriage bed early

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and you slip, than you are of an adult arrests.

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I guess was that it?

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Speaker 3: Oh for sure? And I was taught. You know, this

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is during the time of Rebecca, Saint James and the

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Purity Pledges, where you know, it was trendy to wait

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for your husband. So while I was being told stuffed

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by my parents, even if they had never said anything,

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I was reading you know, Joshua Harris's book I Just

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Stateing Goodbye. I was obsessed with Rebecca Saint James and

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her pledge to wait for her husband, and so I

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wasn't just going to save my body for marriage. I

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was taught that you don't even date anybody. If you

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even have a crush on someone, that's the same as

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cheating on your future husband. So I was really extreme

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about it. So at eighteen, the first time I found

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myself wanting to be in a relationship with somebody, I

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was like, well, I guess this means I have to

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marry them, because that's it. Otherwise I've cheated on my

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future husband, so this must be it. And found myself

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in a really bad situation and then in a divorce

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after a year so and then repeated that cycle because

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I was taught also that you can't fulfill your calling

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in life until you find out who who your partner is,

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and being myself that I've never stopped being. I've always

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wanted to do things in life and have my own

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place in this world. And I thought, well, if I

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have to have a man next to me to get

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permission to do that, then I'll just go find a man.

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Speaker 2: Well, you'd tell me where the boundary is. If the

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first husband is your soulmate and you divorce, pray, then

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was that a mistake and the next husband is the soulmate?

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Did you have this conflict?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I think I. I wrote off the first one

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as I had been deceived. That was, you know, that's

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what you do. You say that you have such a

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calling on your life that Satan must have really deceived

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you to try to take you out of the game,

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whatever that game is. And then the second marriage was

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supposed to be that's God's redemption. This is him showing

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me love and like forgiving me for messing up with

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that with my eighteen year old brain making decisions for

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life which should never happen. So that was my thought process,

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that I was deceived and I did the best I could,

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and now the second one was God's redemption.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned Rebecca Saint James some context for those who

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don't know, a popular Christian artist who actually came to

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prominence when she was sixteen years old. I remember I

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was in Christian radio at the time and her father

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was touring whe her he was her manager, and she

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came to the studio. We were friends, I mean to

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a degree. We knew each other by sight and you know, hey, Rebecca,

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good to see you, and we were just familiar in

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that way. But she was one of these sort of

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frontline champions for no sex until marriage, keep yourself pure

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right because it is adultery. We had the true love

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weights model where some people would wear purity rings. Did

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you have a ring?

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Speaker 3: Oh? I had a ring. I had a ring and

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it was engraved with for you. I wait, And then

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when I got married, I added on ed for you.

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I waited.

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Speaker 2: So I mean again, I'm not you tell me where

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to go here. You're a teenager, right, I mean you're

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in high school, innate natural desires from someone post puberty,

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and I'm sure you're getting male attention. What's going on

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in your skull?

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Speaker 3: At the time, I think I was so heavily indoctrinated

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that I just shut down anything. I definitely the part

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I remember feeling guilty for was having crushes on something

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like wanting to like hiding the fact that I was

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text messaging a boy or you know, it was really

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innocent stuff too, or like on AOL messenger. You know,

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so it was wild, and I do remember getting a

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lot of male attention from older men in church, like

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married men and stuff, and telling myself, well, they're just

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trying to be like fatherlike figures in my life. Meanwhile,

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I had a very present, amazing dad, so it was

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kind of weird. And I just remember being so weird

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a out and just thinking I'm just going to be

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a good girl and not even think that way, and

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yet I'm wearing a ring advertising to all these creepy

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men giving me attention. Hey, I'm a virgin. Everybody like that.

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I look back and is one of the most disturbing

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things is announcing to everybody I'm a virgin. And then

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all the jokes being made at my wedding were so disturbing,

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all the comments as we leave the ceremony because everyone

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knows what's about to happen, which ended up being very

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traumatizing to me. So it was just this weird, toxic thing,

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and I think I had just shut it out of

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my head for so long, which made it that much

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more traumatizing when I found myself in a really toxic

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marriage that was looking back, very abusive, very traumat for

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an eighteen year old girl to go through.

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Speaker 2: And you didn't know the difference probably for a while,

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You're like, oh, no, idea. I signed the contract, I

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said the vows. I'm stuck.

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Speaker 3: I was so confused because I did everything they told

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me to do. I did it the right way. This

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is where I thought I messed up. We kissed before

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we got engaged, and my parents had asked that I

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not do that, that I make a commitment to not

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kiss before we're engaged. And I was like, well, there's

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the open door. And after that he pressured me so

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much that I thought, well, now I'm tainted forever. So

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now I definitely have to go through with the wedding.

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And now I have to, like you said, I'm stuck.

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I have to stay in this. It finally got so

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bad that I just thought, you know what, if there's

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an all loving God, then he has to be okay

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with me dipping out because I cannot do this anymore.

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Speaker 2: You said something that I have never heard before, and

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now it seems so obvious. You were wearing the purity

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ring broadcasting I'm a verse a bunch of creepy men.

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Then see you as I don't know how to say it,

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eve as fresh meat, right, I mean you're yep? Is

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that accurate?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 3: I think that's so accurate. I think it's so weird

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that that was ever a thing that people were doing.

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I don't think it was necessarily created for weirdosh to enjoy,

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but it absolutely had to have turned into that. Looking back,

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it's so inappropriate and so gross to even acknowledge, and

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much less, glorify the lack of sex life from a

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twelve year old. It's just fucking weird.

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Speaker 2: Remember, you know, in purity culture affected guys as well. Right,

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we got into the you know, I screwed up, I lusted,

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I feel ashamed, I'm not worthy, and then you fall

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to your knees. Please God, please forgive me, make my

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heart pure. And then five minutes later you find yourself,

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you know, filled with natural, innate desires, healthy desires that

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you've been programmed to believer are sinful and wrong. Takes

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a lot of people, You've met a lot of people.

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They're just still in the cycle, even logically when you

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know it's bullshit, like the scar tissue in your heart,

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you know that stuff is. It's hard to get over

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some of that. I don't know how else to describe it.

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I mean, was that accurate? Am I saying? Correct?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah? I think it's something that when you've grown

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up that indoctrinated, when it's been in your head during

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some of your most formative years. It is a lifelong

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healing process, and scar tissue is a great way to

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describe it. It's not something that's ever going to fully

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go away. I went through a lot of therapy. I've

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been with some really amazing partners that have helped me

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sort through a lot of that healing. But it's definitely

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an ongoing process. Even just getting over like judging other

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people for the way they live. They're like I'll have

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this like thought like oh that's not and I'm like, wait,

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why do I have a problem with that? Why should

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that bother me? And it's just interesting to watch that

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continue to happen even after all the work that I

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put in. Now I can, you know, feel the feeling,

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notice that be like, oh that's silly, that's left over

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from my past. And then it goes away. But it

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lives on. It definitely lives on, And that's why it's

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so awful because it is so hard to get over.

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And to your comment about men, because I don't think

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it's acknowledged enough how harmful purity culture is for men

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as well. There's the obvious ways that it harms women,

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but then it turns men into these monsters that they're not.

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They're taught that they're naturally a horrible monster. And then

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you know, women are taught that they have to be

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the ones to fix them or to keep them under control,

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but they're just not and they're made to think these things.

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And I've watched it turn men into monsters because you

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create something and make it this taboo thing and it's like,

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don't think about the pink elephant and the room kind

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of thing, and it just comes back around. It's so

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toxic and so awful, and it breaks my heart for

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everyone who's been through that.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's flush that out. I'm going to infer horrible

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monsters me And hey, they're guys. And so if a

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woman is provocatively dressed or whatever, it's I mean man

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or men. You know, they're just wired that way, and

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you know they're primal and predators or whatever. I don't

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know if primal would be a word I would have

360
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used in the faith, but by monsters, you mean that

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we are provoked easily. That's how we're made, and.

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Speaker 3: Certain sexual urges. Yeah, yeah, and.

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Speaker 2: You become the gatekeeper for what I do, right.

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Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, So I was taught. You know, I remember

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going to a pool party when I was twelve years

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old and I haven't even gone through puberty, and I

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am being asked by the mother of these boys to

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please wear an extra large T shirt over my bathing

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suit because it's not safe for her husband and sons

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to be around me without that on. And that made

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me feel so full of shame, so embarrassed, and I

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can't imagine what her sons were told about things like that.

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But when a twelve year old is put in that position,

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where so you're taught, Hey, my grown husband and my

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four little boys are going to have inappropriate thoughts about

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you if you wear if you don't wear this, and

377
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you better wear it or else it is your fault

378
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that that happened, and it's bad. That's so messed up.

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Speaker 2: Much more to come with. My guest Eve was framed

380
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right after this hang on. I'm looking here at the

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last segment of the year, the last few months of

382
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twenty twenty four. I'm wrapping up my travels schedule with

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a major speaking event, and then I get to officiate

384
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some humanist weddings. I've already done a few of those

385
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this year, and it's always an honor. Somebody is renewing

386
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their vows, or they're getting married and saying the vows

387
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for the first time. Maybe they don't have vows, or

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just a statement of love and affirmation or whatever, but

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they say, look, we don't want to do it in

390
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the church, we don't want to preach your and we'd

391
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,920
like Seth to come out and be our officient. That's

392
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,640
always a kick. It is so much fun. And so

393
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I'm going to be in Branson for a wedding and

394
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then I'm taking my wife to New York City. Now

395
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,720
we're trying to figure out what to do in New

396
00:21:16,799 --> 00:21:20,960
York City, you know, the standard tourist stuff. I've been

397
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,880
five times, six times in my life, but Natalie has

398
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never been. So I'm trying to put together this laundry list. Well,

399
00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:29,559
we're going to stat you a liberty, and do we

400
00:21:29,599 --> 00:21:31,759
go to the One World Tower and then we catch

401
00:21:31,799 --> 00:21:34,200
the Memorial And do we catch a Broadway show that

402
00:21:34,319 --> 00:21:37,200
sounds good? Which show would we do? Is there something

403
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else we're missing? What kind of food should we get?

404
00:21:39,759 --> 00:21:42,960
And where? So I'm busy going through this list going

405
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I don't know, I don't know, but I'm going to

406
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be a pilgrim in a strange land because I live

407
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in a city that you can drive all the way

408
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across in about twenty five minutes, okay, And I'm going

409
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to New York, which is there are no words for

410
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,119
a guy like me. And I'm usually good for about

411
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:10,079
forty eight hours before I overload. It's too much. I

412
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,920
can't take it to so many people in so many buildings.

413
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,400
I remember I stayed once. I'm just digressing. I'm sorry.

414
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I stayed once with a host when I was speaking

415
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in New York, and he had this awesome apartment in downtown,

416
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but I was trying to sleep, and all night long

417
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it was trash trucks and sirens and horns honking and

418
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the shouts of people. And he just loved it. He's like,

419
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I love this city. It's alive. It never sleeps. I

420
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,559
thrive on New York. Then I was lying there, going

421
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get me the hell out of here. I think I

422
00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:48,799
just overload, But until I do, it's magnificent. Somebody. I'm

423
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putting that together. And then I'm officiating a wedding while

424
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we are there and then and this is the point

425
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I was going to make before I went off on

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a bunny trail. On the twenty seventh of October, the

427
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,880
Rationalists of East Tennessee Wonderful Group have asked me to

428
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,960
come and do a presentation and that's going to be

429
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one o'clock October twenty seventh at the University of Tennessee

430
00:23:11,839 --> 00:23:17,160
Conference Center and all are invited. We'd love a chance

431
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,200
to see you if you are in or near Tennessee

432
00:23:20,319 --> 00:23:23,799
or just want to drive it. Details at seth Andrews

433
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:30,279
dot com Slash events Continuing now with my special guest,

434
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:36,920
ex vangelical activist Eve was framed. I see on your

435
00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:40,319
right arm a for the video viewers, you see it?

436
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,279
Is it a tiger tattoo?

437
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Speaker 3: It's that's my tiger and there's my dragon.

438
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Speaker 2: Okay, post religion or while you were in religion?

439
00:23:50,039 --> 00:23:53,079
Speaker 3: When did you get the tat that's a popular question.

440
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,960
So I got these posts, but I was getting tattoos

441
00:23:58,319 --> 00:24:01,839
from the day I turned eighteen. They were Christian tattoos though,

442
00:24:01,839 --> 00:24:04,200
and I would get them when my dad was out

443
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,440
of town and my mom would be like, well, if

444
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,000
you want a tattoo for six months or longer then

445
00:24:09,039 --> 00:24:10,400
you can go get it, like you have to make

446
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:14,559
sure it's something you really want. And so I was

447
00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:19,039
always pushing those limits clearly, you know, saving myself for marriage. Yes,

448
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,119
not getting tattoos. No, I had to get the tattoos.

449
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Speaker 2: Those were illegal in my state of Oklahoma until just

450
00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:29,160
a few years ago. I mean we talk about blue laws. No, No,

451
00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:32,799
you had to leave the state to get a tattoo,

452
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,079
because I don't know it was it was kind of

453
00:24:35,079 --> 00:24:37,599
a blue law, one of those morality clauses. It was

454
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,640
still in the books, and tattoo shops they kind of

455
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,039
went up anyway after a while, and nobody prosecuted, and

456
00:24:46,079 --> 00:24:48,400
then finally they just said, fuck it, let's just you know,

457
00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:51,039
let's just make it legal. We seem to be late

458
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,880
to almost every progressive measure that comes down the pipe.

459
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I don't know what part of the world you live in.

460
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:57,599
Are you in the Bible?

461
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Speaker 3: Bell I'm in Tennessee now. In Atlanta, which was like

462
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,519
this nice little safe haven in the South, and especially

463
00:25:04,559 --> 00:25:06,960
the neighborhood I was in was extremely progressive, and I

464
00:25:07,079 --> 00:25:10,960
just moved to Tennessee, and I feel like I've been

465
00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:14,119
slung in a time machine to the worst time period

466
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:15,240
in American history.

467
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Speaker 2: It's just tell me what that means. Tell me.

468
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:21,839
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know if you've heard about they

469
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,400
did these vouchers for school, so our education system sucks.

470
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,480
The fact that I see Dixie flags on a regular

471
00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:30,720
basis not that you don't see those in Georgia. But again,

472
00:25:30,799 --> 00:25:35,359
I was in Atlanta. It is everywhere you go. It's

473
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,240
pink cowboy hats, which is fine, and then like Trump

474
00:25:39,279 --> 00:25:44,319
shirts and Trump hats, and you're always in a coffee

475
00:25:44,319 --> 00:25:47,759
shop with Christian music blasting. Like the coolest coffee shop

476
00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:51,400
you can find is still the meeting spot for the

477
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,599
biggest Bible study in the neighborhood. So just getting used

478
00:25:54,599 --> 00:25:58,559
to these little cultural things has been quite the quite

479
00:25:58,599 --> 00:25:59,119
the journey.

480
00:26:00,039 --> 00:26:03,599
Speaker 2: Does the future scare you? You know, we're heading into

481
00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:07,039
some pretty important weeks, the war on women. I'm sure

482
00:26:07,079 --> 00:26:09,079
this is front burner stuff for you, right.

483
00:26:09,799 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 3: It does scare me, And I think it's really scary

484
00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:16,599
because I was raised in a very Christian nationalist culture.

485
00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:21,680
If you've seen the documentary Jesus Camp, that really sums up.

486
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:24,839
I mean, I was around those exact leaders my entire childhood,

487
00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:27,240
and you know, did the life tape over my mouth

488
00:26:27,279 --> 00:26:30,799
and everything? So I grew up being indoctrinated to become that.

489
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,200
Thankfully I didn't, but I feel that I have some insight,

490
00:26:35,279 --> 00:26:37,839
and I've been predicting these things. You know, people were

491
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,319
saying Roe v. Wade will never be overturned, and I

492
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,920
was saying, I'm telling you, guys, we were trained to

493
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,599
do this, like we have been preparing to overturn Roe v. Wade,

494
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,720
and that's just supposed to be the start of everything.

495
00:26:49,799 --> 00:26:53,319
So what scares me is that the worst predictions I've made,

496
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,759
most of them, have come true. And it it It's

497
00:26:57,839 --> 00:26:59,960
why I do what I do, because I don't want

498
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:01,720
to continue being right about this.

499
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,519
Speaker 2: Life tape. I'm sorry, I totally got stuck. I'm still stuck,

500
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,720
fair enough. What is life tape?

501
00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 3: Oh man, this is so bad. If you haven't seen this,

502
00:27:14,599 --> 00:27:17,519
so we would put red duct tape over our mouths,

503
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,559
this is I'm like eight years old. I don't know

504
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,920
what an abortion is. I don't barely know what sex is.

505
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,160
I don't know about any of this stuff. And you

506
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,559
would break life over it and go stand in front

507
00:27:29,599 --> 00:27:33,359
of the Capitol and protest abortion. You know, protest the

508
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,039
murder of innocent babies and intercede and pray. There was

509
00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:40,559
a whole little prayer we would say, Jesus, I plead

510
00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:42,720
your blood over my sins and the sins of my nation.

511
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,319
Something something into abortion, and send revival to America. That

512
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,519
was a prayer that we were supposed to, with duct

513
00:27:49,519 --> 00:27:51,799
tape over our mouths, say over and over and over again.

514
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:57,319
Speaker 2: I was raised in it's almost a militarized culture where

515
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,799
we were supposed to go and take our country back

516
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,720
God right. We had Christian founders who believed Christian things

517
00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:08,359
and founded a Christian country which has been stripped away

518
00:28:08,519 --> 00:28:13,160
by them, evil godless libs or whoever. And we were

519
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,119
going to go out and we were just going to

520
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:21,960
become leaders in our community and politicians. And it was programming,

521
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:25,359
and it was really colored in militarized language. I'm in

522
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,039
the Lord's Army. We used to sing that song. We

523
00:28:28,039 --> 00:28:31,200
would march in the infantry. We do the motions we

524
00:28:31,319 --> 00:28:34,359
talk about. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal.

525
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,400
The helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, this sword

526
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:43,440
of the spirit. And I see now that that those

527
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:49,240
seeds of militarized thinking are manifesting. I think I'm worried

528
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,640
they're going to manifest in literal like a physical holy war,

529
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,920
some kind of Christian jihad. Am I overreacting?

530
00:28:57,599 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 3: No, I don't think you're overreacting at all. I think

531
00:29:01,319 --> 00:29:05,279
you know there's we know there are militias formed. The

532
00:29:05,759 --> 00:29:08,440
rhetoric that I heard growing up in a quote prophetic

533
00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:12,799
charismatic church was nothing but talking about battle and war.

534
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,720
You know, we war not against flesh, but they would

535
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:18,359
say that it's not against flesh. But then you go

536
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,039
on and it's like the most violent rhetoric, and and

537
00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:26,319
we see a fascist dictator trying to take over using

538
00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:29,039
the same sort of violent rhetoric. And so I don't

539
00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:31,799
think it's I don't think it's overreacting at all. The

540
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,640
silver lining for me is that I do think this

541
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,880
is dying. I think this brand of evangelicalism this is

542
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,920
its last hurah or attempting to be and so they're

543
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:48,559
getting louder. This is their big attempt. And that's why

544
00:29:48,599 --> 00:29:50,960
I do have hope that we can we can overcome this,

545
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,880
and we can move past it, and we can start

546
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,920
working on getting people therapy for the religious trauma and

547
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,599
the indoctrination they've received. But I do think it's getting

548
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,039
scarier before we reach a point of hopefully some sort

549
00:30:05,039 --> 00:30:05,480
of piece.

550
00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:08,319
Speaker 2: Well just call this coffee talk. I know this is

551
00:30:08,359 --> 00:30:12,240
not you're not a sociologist, but I have heard concerns

552
00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:15,480
in years past about let's call it the thirty and

553
00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:19,839
unders apatheists. I mean, they seem to there appear to

554
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,599
have been a lack of engagement politically, they just thought

555
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,319
the whole system screwed and whatever. I just don't care,

556
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,960
but I have seen what I interpret to be more

557
00:30:30,039 --> 00:30:35,240
engagement and urgency. Do you feel like you know new voters,

558
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,319
young adults. Are you think they get it? Do you

559
00:30:38,319 --> 00:30:41,599
think they're they're chiming in and getting on board.

560
00:30:42,279 --> 00:30:45,599
Speaker 3: I think they're starting to. And I'm honestly extremely encouraged

561
00:30:46,519 --> 00:30:49,759
with gen Z because we're seeing that they are one

562
00:30:49,759 --> 00:30:54,200
of the most compassionate generations that we've had, and I'm

563
00:30:54,319 --> 00:31:00,599
hoping that that ends up resulting in a dimish of

564
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:04,000
their compassion and their care and being active in the community,

565
00:31:04,319 --> 00:31:08,119
and that includes voting. So I see that only going

566
00:31:08,279 --> 00:31:09,279
better for us.

567
00:31:09,759 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to talk to an expangelical

568
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:18,000
without asking about your deconstruction. Come on, the doubts appeared

569
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,559
when oh they.

570
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,839
Speaker 3: Were always there. They were there from when I was

571
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:29,400
three years old, and I was very, very anxious as

572
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,599
a child, and I think looking back, most of it

573
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,240
comes from being taught that there was, you know, spiritual

574
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,759
warfare all around me all the time, there was angels

575
00:31:38,759 --> 00:31:42,640
and demons. I knew all about hell, and I was

576
00:31:42,759 --> 00:31:45,680
terrified of it. I remember so many nights just from

577
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,079
when I was really young, laying in bed, crying, praying,

578
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,279
you know, asking Jesus to come back into my heart

579
00:31:52,319 --> 00:31:54,799
in case he left that day. I was so scared.

580
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,400
Because I was a child, I didn't understand even the

581
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,400
theology behind it all, and so came in. My dad

582
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:03,720
would explain about heaven and how great it's going to be,

583
00:32:03,759 --> 00:32:06,759
and we're going to spend forever in heaven worshiping God.

584
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,480
And I would ask, well, forever, how like, how is

585
00:32:10,519 --> 00:32:12,960
forever possible? And I would get anxiety just over the

586
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:17,079
idea of forever. I couldn't obviously understand that, and then

587
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,640
I would think, I can't sit through a thirty minute

588
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,960
worship service in church, but forever I am supposed to

589
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,119
be worshiping God in heaven. This sounds horrible. I would

590
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,359
rather just be over when it's over. I don't want

591
00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:32,920
to go do that. So the questions were already there.

592
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,880
And what happened is in my you know, early twenties,

593
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,799
I think I started shifting some of my values and

594
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,000
beliefs to match the reality, which is that I loved people,

595
00:32:46,119 --> 00:32:48,960
all people, And so I started becoming one of those

596
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,359
progressive Christians that believe that if you're gay, you should

597
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,200
have the right to marry, because I thought, you know what,

598
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,279
that's between them and God, and they should have the

599
00:32:56,319 --> 00:32:59,960
same rights that I have. And I started even thinking,

600
00:33:00,119 --> 00:33:02,480
you know what, I don't think abortions should be the

601
00:33:02,519 --> 00:33:04,759
issue here. I think we should be working on all

602
00:33:04,799 --> 00:33:08,440
the ways that we can naturally alleviate the need for abortions.

603
00:33:08,519 --> 00:33:12,480
You know, I got really heretical. And then one of

604
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,640
the last things for me in my mid twenties is

605
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,319
I was like, how are we supposed to have and

606
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,480
all loving, all knowing, all powerful God in the existence

607
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,079
of hell? This just doesn't make sense to me. I'm

608
00:33:23,119 --> 00:33:26,039
not finding enough biblical backing for at least the hell

609
00:33:26,119 --> 00:33:28,160
that I've been taught to believe in I don't think

610
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,359
that's real either, and I think with the removal of that,

611
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,519
it removed a lot of the fear. And I was

612
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,240
twenty six. I was a worship leader at Bethel Supernatural

613
00:33:41,279 --> 00:33:44,680
School of Ministry, which is as crazy as it sounds,

614
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:52,519
and I was thinking, this just feels like bullshit, this

615
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,839
feels not real. Because I was kind of behind the

616
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,920
scenes of the worship situation and seeing what really goes down,

617
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,559
seeing how the sausage is made, I didn't want anything

618
00:34:02,559 --> 00:34:04,559
to do with it anymore. And I finally was able

619
00:34:04,599 --> 00:34:07,519
to sit down with myself and address all these questions

620
00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:09,960
that nobody had given me good reasons for. And I

621
00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:13,400
was diving into the Bible and I was out of

622
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,280
genuinely wanting to get closer to God. I wanted to

623
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,119
get away from church. I wanted to get away from

624
00:34:18,159 --> 00:34:19,840
the bullshit. And I was like, so I'm going to

625
00:34:20,039 --> 00:34:23,920
I'm going to actually get close to God. And that

626
00:34:24,119 --> 00:34:29,000
ended up backfiring and I completely lost my faith, not

627
00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:30,960
just in the Christian God, but in the existence of

628
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,280
any God at all. That's a long story short, but

629
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,360
that's the gist of what happened. And I ended up

630
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,000
getting a one way flight from Writing, California to Atlanta,

631
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:44,599
where I grew up and never looked back. I left everything,

632
00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:46,800
I left my marriage, I left the school of ministry.

633
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,800
I left and completely started my life over again, because

634
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,400
to me, everything had changed.

635
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 2: You mentioned how the sausage is made kind of like

636
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:59,559
that saying, so if you see how church people operate,

637
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,960
was hypocrisy inside the church any part of your journey?

638
00:35:04,199 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: Oh?

639
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,679
Speaker 3: Absolutely, there was so much hypocrisy, the standards that some

640
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,679
people were held to that the leaders were never even

641
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,280
coming close to. Also, it was so disturbing for me

642
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,880
was I was at this time as a student and

643
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,119
ministry does really diving into the Bible and Jesus's words

644
00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,000
and feeling really inspired by them at the time. And

645
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,599
then I'm watching these worship leaders by their multimillion dollar

646
00:35:29,679 --> 00:35:34,639
homes and buy their designer purses and pop their anxiety

647
00:35:34,679 --> 00:35:38,880
meds and chase it with a beer just to go

648
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,039
lead worship. And I was so disturbed by the fact

649
00:35:42,079 --> 00:35:46,880
that this behavior was no different and sometimes worse than

650
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,400
what I saw when I was in LA working for

651
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,159
different celebrities there. So that hypocrisy was absolutely disgusting. And

652
00:35:54,199 --> 00:35:56,480
then I was being told you know you have your

653
00:35:56,519 --> 00:35:59,239
anier monitors. I'm on stage worshiping and I'm being told

654
00:35:59,519 --> 00:36:02,639
raise your hand, sing louder. This is a great moment

655
00:36:02,679 --> 00:36:05,760
to get soft and maybe cry sing a prophetic song.

656
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:10,719
You know you're being coached the whole time. And all

657
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,679
of that combined seeing the sausage made I couldn't do

658
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:16,800
it anymore. It was going against everything in me. And

659
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,639
I pulled an experiment my last time leading worship. I thought,

660
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,280
I'm I'm not even going to try to worship God

661
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,039
because I was always I felt coming from a genuine place.

662
00:36:26,159 --> 00:36:28,400
Today I'm going to act. I'm going to act like

663
00:36:28,559 --> 00:36:30,679
what I think the greatest worship leader should be like.

664
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,519
And afterwards, the feedback I got was that was so

665
00:36:34,679 --> 00:36:38,360
amazing watching you have a real encounter with God. Wow,

666
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,880
we all felt God's presence stronger than ever before, you know,

667
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,760
And I thought, oh my God, it's fake. It's absolutely fake.

668
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,159
It doesn't matter. I could be an actor. I could

669
00:36:47,159 --> 00:36:48,920
not believe any of this, and I can do it

670
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,800
and convince everybody because that's all that it is. There's

671
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,880
no actual Holy Spirit showing up here.

672
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,639
Speaker 2: So what was called a move with the spirit was

673
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,400
more conditioned response.

674
00:36:59,519 --> 00:37:02,199
Speaker 3: Exactly, yep. And the lights have to be a certain way,

675
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,360
the ac has to be a certain way. When we

676
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,559
bring the band down just right, when we play these

677
00:37:07,599 --> 00:37:11,000
certain chords and we have a key change, suddenly you

678
00:37:11,039 --> 00:37:12,000
feel the Holy Spirit.

679
00:37:12,639 --> 00:37:15,199
Speaker 2: I remember when the altar calls what happen, they'd always

680
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,800
get that dude up on the synthesizer and they'd be

681
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,480
playing the piano and kind of you know, riff and

682
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,039
in that moving way. You know you could hear it,

683
00:37:23,079 --> 00:37:27,639
but it wasn't too egregious, which distracted from the pastor's words.

684
00:37:27,639 --> 00:37:29,760
But at the same time, you really felt it in

685
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,199
your heart, and you know, people would cry, and they'd

686
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,159
run up to the front and drop to their knees

687
00:37:35,199 --> 00:37:38,559
and rededicate themselves. And when I got out, I remember thinking,

688
00:37:38,599 --> 00:37:40,599
you know, there was a flow to it. You start

689
00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:43,599
big worship leaders in the worship bands, they start big.

690
00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:47,239
It's exciting, you're on your feet, everybody's bellowing, and then

691
00:37:48,079 --> 00:37:50,559
you know, you drop it a little bit, oh offering,

692
00:37:50,679 --> 00:37:53,960
Now let's do special music. And then certainly near the end,

693
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,719
we've got to be reverent and moving. And I thought

694
00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:02,280
the same thing. I thought, condition to respond right anyway

695
00:38:02,519 --> 00:38:04,599
I didn't know you were a singer. How did I

696
00:38:04,639 --> 00:38:05,599
not know this about you?

697
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's what I was raised to do. Since

698
00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:11,760
I was very little. My mom had me in voice

699
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,559
lessons and I started leading worship at church very early on.

700
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,719
It wasn't my favorite thing in the world, I think,

701
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,920
because I wanted to listen to the music I wanted

702
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,360
to listen to, and that was forbidden. So I would

703
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,880
get Avril Levine's cassette and I would write worship music

704
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,159
on it, and I would wake up at five am

705
00:38:30,559 --> 00:38:33,719
and when everyone was still asleep and listen to Ryan

706
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,880
Seacrest Top forty radio and finally get to hear the

707
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,280
Backstreet Boys new single. And so I think that made

708
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,840
me really frustrated because I was raised to think, you know,

709
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,320
if you're going to do something, it has to be

710
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,880
for God, and it needs to be in church. And

711
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,920
then there was a flip where my dad started writing

712
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,440
these books about the Seven Mountain Mandate Seven Mountain, which

713
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,519
is dominion theology. Basically, they you know, I'll they will

714
00:39:00,559 --> 00:39:03,199
say that it's not you can go read it and

715
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,119
decide what you think, but the idea is bringing the

716
00:39:05,199 --> 00:39:08,440
Kingdom of Earth or Kingdom of heaven to Earth. And

717
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,280
part of that switch in theology was that now the

718
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,159
best thing you can do is go become a pop

719
00:39:15,199 --> 00:39:17,800
star and be a Christian doing it so that you

720
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,159
win souls over and you take over this mountain of entertainment,

721
00:39:21,599 --> 00:39:25,480
so that now it's you know, infiltrated by Christianity. And

722
00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:28,000
so then I was pressured into kind of going that route.

723
00:39:28,079 --> 00:39:29,800
That's actually what I went to school for was to

724
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:35,639
study pop vocals. And when I left Bethel and I

725
00:39:35,679 --> 00:39:39,280
stopped leading worship, it was so ruined for me. I

726
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:44,159
never wanted to do music again. I was absolutely over

727
00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:49,239
it and swore it off. I always loved singing for myself,

728
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,559
and I love writing. That's my number one thing that

729
00:39:51,599 --> 00:39:53,039
I like to do is write. So I kept doing

730
00:39:53,079 --> 00:39:55,159
that for myself, but I was content to never do

731
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,800
it again. And in the last year year and a

732
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,800
half started getting back to it, and it's been really fun.

733
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,239
It's been amazing, and I didn't realize how much I

734
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:05,679
missed it.

735
00:40:06,679 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 2: I can I confess something to you. I don't really

736
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,880
know her songs, but I kind of like Taylor Swift

737
00:40:15,159 --> 00:40:21,039
like I love her. I mean, I'm like a strong, successful,

738
00:40:21,119 --> 00:40:25,400
talented woman who I think shares many of our values.

739
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,360
I don't know how political she is being at the

740
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,239
time that this interview releases, but I have this theory that,

741
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,239
you know, before November, we're going to see something a

742
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,920
little more on the nose from her that she had

743
00:40:36,519 --> 00:40:38,880
There was a documentary where she was speaking about the

744
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:43,400
war on women and whatnot. I saw a clip of

745
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:48,480
the beginning of one of her concerts. Holy shit, I

746
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,679
mean it was crazy. So you're a swifty, is that right?

747
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 3: I don't know if you can call me a swifty.

748
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,599
I really like Taylor Swift. I think she's an incredible

749
00:40:56,639 --> 00:41:00,880
songwriter and a really hard working human. And I know

750
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:02,840
people that know her or work with her, and they

751
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,159
have nothing but amazing things to say about her, And

752
00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:09,199
that's so rare in the industry. Usually somebody on that

753
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:12,360
level you're not hearing very nice things about. People will

754
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,559
compliment their work ethic or say well, yeah, they're good

755
00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:17,000
at that, but to also say they're just a genuinely

756
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,440
pleasant person to be around and work for, it's really impressive.

757
00:41:20,519 --> 00:41:23,239
So I gotta give her that. I do hope that

758
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,519
you're right that there will be some more political moves

759
00:41:27,559 --> 00:41:28,199
in her future.

760
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,000
Speaker 2: But we'll see I mean one of the I mean,

761
00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:33,480
I hear this. I'm sure you hear it. We're busy

762
00:41:33,679 --> 00:41:37,000
debunking the bunk when it comes to religion. People are

763
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,000
mad whenever we talk about politics, and I've said over

764
00:41:40,039 --> 00:41:43,119
and over everything's political. Wouldn't it be nice to live

765
00:41:43,159 --> 00:41:45,880
in a world where you didn't have to worry about politics.

766
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,840
I don't even know what that world looks like. Have

767
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,679
you heard this protest? Eve? Why are you being political? Oh?

768
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:59,039
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I reposted recently something about Jack White filing a

769
00:41:59,079 --> 00:42:02,280
lawsuit against the Trump administration for using one of his songs,

770
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,199
and I said, that's so rock and roll or something

771
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,679
like that, and immediately people responded like, I didn't know

772
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,519
you were political, Like that's somehow Why do you think

773
00:42:11,559 --> 00:42:13,400
I do what I do if it's not for the

774
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,400
fact that I care about the country that I live

775
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,480
in and what happens here and how people are impacted

776
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,079
by it. And I don't think that you can go through,

777
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,719
you know, quote deconstruction, or leave something as intense as

778
00:42:27,079 --> 00:42:32,400
evangelical culture without evaluating the politics of it all without

779
00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:35,480
having some sort of a stance. I don't think everybody

780
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,639
has to be public with it. I fully respect people's

781
00:42:37,679 --> 00:42:42,159
right to say and do what they want. But to say, oh,

782
00:42:42,199 --> 00:42:43,960
I just don't think about those things, I just don't

783
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,920
want to think about those things is a really privileged

784
00:42:47,079 --> 00:42:49,719
position to be in. And it's and it's fake too.

785
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,400
You're not even that privileged because it will impact you,

786
00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:53,599
whether you care or not.

787
00:42:54,199 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 2: So it's public facing as you are. Mom, and Dad

788
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,920
got to know all about you, right They watched the

789
00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:03,679
channel I mean on there.

790
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,199
Speaker 3: I don't know how much they see. They're very public too,

791
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,679
if you you know, Newsweek Politico loves to use my

792
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,079
dad for headlines like Trump prophet says blah blah blah

793
00:43:15,079 --> 00:43:19,559
and then insert something crazy there. So we're kind of

794
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,280
both in this public light at different times. I try

795
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,639
to avoid seeing their stuff because I do have good

796
00:43:26,679 --> 00:43:29,639
relationship with them right now, and I want to continue

797
00:43:29,639 --> 00:43:32,800
that because I think we've had some good conversations and

798
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,360
I would like to have further conversations, and I'd like

799
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,719
to just be somebody that exists in their world, not

800
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,719
just as their daughter, but also as kind of a

801
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:44,519
somebody outside of the echo chamber, you know, And I

802
00:43:45,039 --> 00:43:47,280
want to also be hearing what's going on. Over there.

803
00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:51,760
They I know they've watched some of my stuff. We

804
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,599
had we had to talk recently and they said, yeah,

805
00:43:55,599 --> 00:43:58,320
we actually just went and watched your last five tiktoks.

806
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,480
And I was like, oh, I bet that didn't feel good,

807
00:44:01,599 --> 00:44:04,320
because we do have boundaries around what we talk about,

808
00:44:04,519 --> 00:44:09,039
and we try to not discuss specifically. I would say

809
00:44:09,079 --> 00:44:11,960
like atheism and politics, because I can hear their Christian

810
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,239
stuff and that's fine. I speak that language still, but

811
00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:17,719
you know they don't want to. We don't want to

812
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,880
debate about my views because I don't think it would

813
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:22,159
go well for any of us.

814
00:44:22,679 --> 00:44:25,199
Speaker 2: What are your tiktoks? What kind of stuff you're saying?

815
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 3: Oh? I said something about trying to think I can

816
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:34,400
pull up what's my most I mean, the general vibe

817
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:38,079
is usually like, for example, here's when it says, how

818
00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:40,239
do you not believe in God? Same way you don't

819
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,880
believe in whatever God's deities you don't believe in? And

820
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,480
then I listed yahweh zeus alat or Vishnu pap yo.

821
00:44:46,679 --> 00:44:46,840
Speaker 2: You know.

822
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,599
Speaker 3: So it's little things like that, and and some of

823
00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:53,679
them are not very nuanced at first. You know, there'll

824
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,199
be something about like it doesn't matter how many people

825
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,679
you sleep with or don't sleep with, your value doesn't

826
00:44:58,679 --> 00:45:02,360
go up or down as a human. And that's all

827
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,000
I say. And then I engage in the comments because

828
00:45:05,039 --> 00:45:07,119
I really like to get people to think. I like

829
00:45:07,159 --> 00:45:09,239
to create a quick spark. I want to create an

830
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,360
emotional reaction, because I think that's where the best mind

831
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,960
changes come from, is when it draws some sort of

832
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,039
emotion up that you have to look at. And some

833
00:45:18,079 --> 00:45:19,639
people aren't ready to look at that yet, and then

834
00:45:19,679 --> 00:45:21,599
they just get mad at me and send me death threats.

835
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,440
And some people I know that that emotion sits with

836
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,159
them and they take it and like I did, because

837
00:45:27,199 --> 00:45:30,599
I would see all kinds of content on Facebook before

838
00:45:30,639 --> 00:45:33,719
I ever stopped believing, and I know those things stuck

839
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:35,960
with me. And eventually, once I was brave enough and

840
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,800
once I was, you know, starting my journey of deconstruction,

841
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,920
I was like, wow, now I can address that meme

842
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,400
that I saw that was making fun of the idea

843
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,360
of Noah's art, because actually, I guess that really didn't happen.

844
00:45:47,039 --> 00:45:49,039
So that's my hope is to just kind of spark

845
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,239
with these one liners or you know, little paragraph sparks

846
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:54,519
some critical thought in people.

847
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,599
Speaker 2: So is the front facing online activist space a different

848
00:46:00,639 --> 00:46:04,559
space for women? You know the answer, But I'm going

849
00:46:04,639 --> 00:46:14,199
to get a perspective from Eve was framed. Next, my

850
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,239
supporters get the show early and commercial free. Thanks for

851
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:23,440
your support. Paytreon dot com slash Seth Andrews, Continuing my

852
00:46:23,639 --> 00:46:31,599
conversation with Eve was framed, I'm interested in the kind

853
00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:34,639
of protest I get, you idiot, you know what a

854
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,519
dumb ass? I don't know I did that kind of thing. Yeah,

855
00:46:38,559 --> 00:46:42,039
But for a woman in this space, how often are

856
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,840
the comments on sexual slurs? You know, the C word.

857
00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:48,800
I can't I don't want to say it because I

858
00:46:49,079 --> 00:46:51,119
hate the word, but I don't want to strike either

859
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,960
from you know, wherever the platform is. But I know

860
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:57,519
I've just it's a question I often will ask females

861
00:46:57,559 --> 00:47:00,599
on the front lines because the way they go after

862
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,039
a guy and the way they go after you totally different. Yeah.

863
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,000
Speaker 3: Oh, I get the worst you can think of every day.

864
00:47:10,199 --> 00:47:14,000
It's funny. I even get a lot of comments from

865
00:47:14,159 --> 00:47:17,159
you know, people with the Bible verse and their bio saying,

866
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,360
you know, I can't wait till you're r a p

867
00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:23,679
D so that you can cry out to God for help.

868
00:47:24,039 --> 00:47:28,199
They will wish, you know, awful things on me, hoping

869
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,760
that I'll like that that will make me want to

870
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,559
come back to God for some reason. And then just

871
00:47:33,599 --> 00:47:37,719
the general name calling. Sword b word get called Jezebel

872
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:42,519
on a daily basis. Recently, this is my favorite one.

873
00:47:42,559 --> 00:47:44,760
I think this word is fine to say. Somebody said

874
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:50,039
congratulations on your graduation from whoredom, which I don't even

875
00:47:50,119 --> 00:47:52,480
know what that's supposed to mean, but it it gave

876
00:47:52,519 --> 00:47:53,039
me a giggle.

877
00:47:53,159 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 2: So right, well, let's let's draw back. Then. That's kind

878
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:57,559
of a dark place, but it's just it's a it's

879
00:47:57,599 --> 00:48:00,840
a place that I think needs to be addressed. Oh yeah,

880
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,400
and to watch the you know, the God squad so

881
00:48:03,519 --> 00:48:07,239
often because I've seen that, well, you know, I hope

882
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,079
someday when somebody or I rape you. I mean, it's

883
00:48:10,079 --> 00:48:13,440
just horrifying stuff. Yeah, you know, but I want to

884
00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:19,639
draw back to you are the daughter of hardcore fundy trumpy.

885
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:21,079
I don't know what else to say, but I mean,

886
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,400
am I on that page and am I receiving that correctly? Right?

887
00:48:24,519 --> 00:48:24,760
Speaker 1: Yeah?

888
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 3: I think more than fundy, they're the charismatic prophetic that

889
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,159
whole world because I wasn't that, you know, I got tattoos.

890
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,440
We were the cool ones. We had church on Saturday

891
00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:39,880
nights because why not that way we could watch football

892
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,760
on Sundays and we can relatively dress how we want.

893
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,280
You know, we progressed as like I got older. We

894
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,599
were more conservative when I was younger, of course, And

895
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,119
now you know my parents they don't even belong to

896
00:48:52,159 --> 00:48:54,400
a church. Just last I heard, they don'wn attend church.

897
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,920
They just run their ministry. So it's this very weird

898
00:48:58,159 --> 00:49:00,440
like nothing matters, and you may make up all the

899
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,679
rules that you want because you have a direct line

900
00:49:02,679 --> 00:49:04,599
to God and nobody can refute that.

901
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm tracking. I've been doing some speaking about changing minds,

902
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,880
the stuff that is at least, how about the stuff

903
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,280
that we know isn't working. Walking into a room with

904
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,320
bullet points and saying, you dumbass, how could you believe

905
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:25,400
something so stupid is not working? No, calling believers mentally

906
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:30,719
ill is not only not working, it's wrong. And I

907
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:36,760
see some stuff in the I don't know, in atheist activism,

908
00:49:37,159 --> 00:49:40,719
especially on the internet and the meme verse, that I

909
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,920
think just kick people back on their heels and cause

910
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,360
them to double down, and we're never going to reach

911
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,119
them that way. And when I hear you speak about

912
00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:54,079
having conversations in a shared space, I get the vibe

913
00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:56,599
you and I might be walking some of the same territory.

914
00:49:56,639 --> 00:49:58,719
As far as our approach, You want to talk about

915
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,639
how you appro coach even the most fundamental believer.

916
00:50:03,559 --> 00:50:05,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's important for people to know, if

917
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,800
you're familiar with my continent at all, that my approach

918
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,760
to a general conversation, what I'm just putting out there

919
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:16,039
from my own page is not my approach at all

920
00:50:16,079 --> 00:50:18,760
when it comes to talking to individuals or face to face,

921
00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:22,760
because that's what relationship is about. It's so different than

922
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,280
just making broad statements where I get to be like, hey,

923
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:26,800
this is what I think, this is where I'm at.

924
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,400
But when I'm talking to an individual, I think it

925
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,719
is kindness and compassionate and also much more helpful to

926
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,440
a conversation if I'm genuinely willing to hear what they

927
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,519
have to say and if I genuinely care that they're

928
00:50:40,559 --> 00:50:42,800
able to hear what I have to say. And sometimes

929
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,880
that means not getting to say stuff. Sometimes it means

930
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,119
deciding we can't even talk about this topic. Because I

931
00:50:48,159 --> 00:50:49,840
can't hear it from you and you can't hear it

932
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:55,760
from me. So my approach is very much relationship first,

933
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,480
and then whatever it is i'm wanting people to understand

934
00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:03,320
comes second. However, what goes over all of that is

935
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:06,559
my own personal boundaries. If something isn't right for me,

936
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,400
if it's going to impact my mental health and even theirs,

937
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:10,880
if I really care about that person, I'm going to

938
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:12,800
look out for their mental health as well to the

939
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,119
best of my ability. So it's keeping all of that

940
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,440
in check. It's prioritizing the humanity between us both over

941
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:20,159
anything else.

942
00:51:20,639 --> 00:51:25,159
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, those Republicans don't have any humanity. They're all

943
00:51:25,679 --> 00:51:29,480
not zis. You know. People think I'm exaggerating, but I

944
00:51:29,519 --> 00:51:32,800
see all, oh look, yes, this is so much reductive thinking.

945
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,000
And I'm like, you just guaranteed that you will have

946
00:51:37,079 --> 00:51:41,400
no meaningful conversation, no mind will be changed, And they're like, well,

947
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:43,440
they're not going to change anyway, And I just show

948
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:45,760
them a picture of me twenty five years ago and

949
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,559
say people can change right, back me up on this, please, yeah.

950
00:51:50,639 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 3: Well, and that's my other approach. Even like when engaging

951
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,519
in the comment sections, people are always telling me you're

952
00:51:55,559 --> 00:51:57,920
so nice and patient. On the line, they'll say you're

953
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,360
so nice and patient with people, and not to say

954
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:04,280
that I'm not direct and still hold my ground, but

955
00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:07,480
it's because I'm always thinking in the back of my

956
00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:11,719
mind about me. At like nineteen twenty years old, my

957
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,840
profile picture on Facebook was me with a Sarah Palin

958
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,239
pen on and you know, some pro life shirt. And

959
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,079
I was as extreme as it gets for some twenty

960
00:52:24,119 --> 00:52:26,039
year old girl living in California at the time.

961
00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:26,199
Speaker 1: Too.

962
00:52:26,199 --> 00:52:28,199
Speaker 3: I should have been on the more progressive end of things,

963
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:33,639
but it it's so sad to say, well, they're never

964
00:52:33,679 --> 00:52:36,119
going to change their mind anyways, and it's insulting to

965
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,880
me because I absolutely changed my mind. And I'm constantly told, oh,

966
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:42,079
your content isn't going to help anybody. Well, I hear

967
00:52:42,119 --> 00:52:44,719
from people daily that it does, and that's exactly what

968
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:47,440
helped me. And if we think that we're not going

969
00:52:47,519 --> 00:52:50,480
to change anybody's mind, then what are we doing anyways?

970
00:52:50,519 --> 00:52:54,320
Like we should just have, you know, go in our

971
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,719
own little villages and never talk to each other again

972
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,599
and not even try and go form new countries. Obviously,

973
00:52:59,639 --> 00:53:03,519
people change their mind. Obviously, people can be educated Obviously

974
00:53:03,559 --> 00:53:07,559
people can be healed from this religious trauma and doctrination.

975
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,320
Speaker 2: If someone is watching now who still bears some of

976
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,960
the scars, even open wounds from what religion has done

977
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,320
to them, how any high control environment, you have any

978
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,519
words for them before we pitch your channel and call

979
00:53:20,559 --> 00:53:22,719
it a day. I mean, I know you've got some experience.

980
00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:25,280
How would you encourage your direct somebody?

981
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 3: You know what I didn't hear enough is take your time.

982
00:53:29,119 --> 00:53:31,760
It is okay to not figure out where you're at yet.

983
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,079
If you're questioning things, you don't have to decide today.

984
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,440
Am I an atheist? Am I agnostic? Do I want

985
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:38,960
to try this religion? Do I want to do this?

986
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,719
There's no, it's okay because you're not going to out

987
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,920
you don't have This is not high stakes anymore. You

988
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,760
get to take the time to really ask all the questions.

989
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,480
And that's my second thing I would say is whatever

990
00:53:50,599 --> 00:53:53,079
question you're afraid to ask most, go ahead and ask

991
00:53:53,119 --> 00:53:55,000
that one first. Get it over with. It's going to

992
00:53:55,039 --> 00:53:56,800
save you so much time and you're going to be

993
00:53:56,880 --> 00:54:00,440
relieved when you finally go down that trail.

994
00:54:01,519 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 2: How do people find you? Your work, your channel?

995
00:54:04,119 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 3: Whatever you guys can find me at eve. Underscore was

996
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:12,679
framed over on Instagram TikTok if you're really brave, Facebook

997
00:54:12,760 --> 00:54:16,000
is happening. But that's some of the darker parts of

998
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,679
the Internet for me right now. And I am on

999
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,079
the line helping co host different shows over there, especially

1000
00:54:23,079 --> 00:54:26,400
Tuesday Nights Chewed Gum. We talk a lot about deconstruction

1001
00:54:26,559 --> 00:54:27,880
and sexuality.

1002
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 2: I wonder if they'll let us host together again. That

1003
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:32,800
was fun. It was just an easy show, fun lot.

1004
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 3: I agree. I think it was really nice.

1005
00:54:35,079 --> 00:54:38,119
Speaker 2: Somebody called the line and you know, make some demands.

1006
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:42,760
Damn it. Yes, our paths will cross again. You're an

1007
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,800
easy interview on your sad back and watched your work,

1008
00:54:46,039 --> 00:54:49,079
and I appreciate your courage. I appreciate that you know

1009
00:54:49,159 --> 00:54:50,920
the fact that you really are a world change. You're

1010
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,280
out there helping to encourage people. I will link to

1011
00:54:53,639 --> 00:54:57,559
your channels in the description box and we'll talk again soon. Okay,

1012
00:54:57,880 --> 00:54:58,280
thank you.

1013
00:54:58,280 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 3: So much for having me. This was amazing.

1014
00:55:00,199 --> 00:55:03,679
Speaker 1: Follow the Thinking Atheist on Facebook and Twitter for a

1015
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:07,360
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1016
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,079
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1017
00:55:11,119 --> 00:55:14,800
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1018
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:22,000
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