Speaker 1: Understand the thinking atheist. It's not a person, it's a symbol,
an idea.
Speaker 2: The population of atheists this country is going through.
Speaker 1: The rule, rejecting faith, pursuing knowledge, challenging the sacred. If
I tell the truth, it's because I tell the truth,
not because I put my hand on a book and
made a wish and working together for a more rational world.
Speaker 2: Take the risk of thinking. Feel so much more happiness.
Truth Usian wisdom will come to you that way.
Speaker 1: Assume nothing, question everything, and start thinking. This is the
Thinking Atheist podcast hosted by Seth Andrews.
Speaker 2: Just a quick note, I find this interesting, kind of
amusing about the conversation you're going to hear, which was
recorded on the tenth of September. Now, this was the
morning of the presidential debate that everybody's been talking about.
And there's a section in the last I don't know
third of the interview where we talked about Taylor Swift
and will she go public and make an official announcement
about her support of a candidate? You know, is she
going to unleash the whirlwind? Right? This was the morning
of the debate. On the heels of the debate, Taylor
Swift made a public announcement that she was supporting Kamala Harris.
I mean it was the same day, so you're going
to hear that reference in the conversation. It was weird.
It's almost like we made it happen. We conjured it,
we called it down from the cosmos. But I was
amused at the coincidence. You will hear that and a
compelling conversation between myself and an ex vangelical turned activist.
I hope you enjoy. She was a believer for many years,
she deconstructed, busted out, and now she is speaking out.
She and I had a chance to co host the
Sunday Show on the Line not too long ago, and
I knew I had to have her on this channel
as well. You know her as Eve was framed. I'll
call you Eve. Good to have you perfect.
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited. That
was such a good time hosting the show together, and
I'm just glad to get to talk some more.
Speaker 2: I heard that our styles kind of complimented each other.
We're both, you know, pretty kind but direct. I think
we had, you know, some wild cards on the switchboard.
Their calls are a little different than mine. You know,
there's some interesting ones, and then there were some wacky ones,
and some of the arguments for God just make every
brain cell scream and pain. You've heard some wacky ones,
I know, and you're journey as well. Just I'll put
you on the spot, off the top of your head.
Some of the arguments proving hashtag proving God. That make
you crazy?
Speaker 3: Oh man, I mean, look at the trees. Notoriously is
my least favorite. And I mean I get that comment
multiple times a week.
Speaker 2: Now, explain look at the trees, though, I forgive the interruption,
but flesh it out. For those who don't know what
that means.
Speaker 3: Well, you'll say, you know, there's no evidence for a god,
and then they'll come back with but look at the trees.
Have you seen the trees? I'm like, what are you?
Are you talking about some poison ivy over there? Is
that supposed to be an indicator of a loving creator God.
It's just that one gets really old because it's so
easily refuted. But there's that, then there's people, the people
that have the whole will it's my truth, so that
makes it that makes it true, which is just not
an argument at all. I get tired of the unoriginal
easily the ones that we've all talked about a million times.
It's fun when somebody every now and then has a
new argument. Somebody recently said something about Ai is going
to be God in the future, and that was their
argument for proving of God. And at least that's fun
to discuss. But the look at the trees over that one.
Speaker 2: It's so beautiful out there, the leaves and the clouds
and all of the beauty. And I think it's amazing
to be able to see and acknowledge the beauty. But
you're right. Was it Stephen Fry who said, we also
we have to talk about bone cancer and children and
those types of things. The planet was any further or
closer to the Sun, we'd all fried, so it must
have been placed at divine hand stock the Earth right
here when it's orbit. Blah blah blah. I'm interested in
your Monika. The name of your channel, Eve was framed.
I'm going to get to Eve, but can we start
with Lilith? Have you done any speaking about Lilith?
Speaker 3: I you know I haven't. It's funny because when I
first started Eve was framed, the immediate response was, what
about Lilith, and I had never even heard about Lilith
because of course I only grew up with the evangelical Bible,
and so I read about that story and it's so
fascinating and really an interesting story. But yeah, I feel
like Lilith deserves some of her own attention. Somebody needs
to start. Lilith was framed, although Lilith wasn't really framed.
Lilith was just kind of a badass.
Speaker 2: She just said screw it and yeah. Left For those
who aren't aware, some Christian traditions have Lilith as the
actual first wife of Adam. She came pre Eve, but
uh oh, she was sexually liberated. I think some stories
say that when she had sex, she liked to be
on top. She took what she wants, you know, she
was just the totally liberated woman. Well, God wasn't going
to have any of that, which is weird because if
God created Lilith, he would have created the characteristics and
personality of Lilith. Why would you have been surprised? And
so ultimately she went out and I think she became
mother to a bunch of demon spawn or something. And
then God made Eve, and then Eve got framed. All right,
explained it for us, would you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I was. I can't take credit because I
think in the seventies some women started using that slogan
for the feminist movement. But when I was sitting there
creating my Instagram account three years ago, I was just like,
what do I want to call this? I was going
to stay anonymous. And there's something That's always run through
my head, even while I was a Christian, which is
that Eve was framed. I always felt that she was
put in a position where she had no choice but
to do what she did and cause the downfall of man,
because that must have been destined by God. Right, if
he knows everything, if he knew the choices that Eve
was going to make before he even created her, then
he knew when he put her in the garden with
that tree that she was going to eat the fruit.
And that, you know, years later, I would be told
any problem in my life can be traced back to Eve.
I was constantly told like, oh, you're not feeling well
this time of month, It's Eve's fault. Oh you know
you have got your heart broken by a boy, Well,
it's Eve's fault because you want to submit to a man.
You know, everything was traced back to Eve, and evangelicals
like to say, oh, well, it's Eve and Adam's fault,
but if you really get down to the culture of it,
Eve is heavily blamed because of this patriarchal hierarchy, and
that's why I decided to go with Eve was framed.
Speaker 2: It's interesting that the Book of Genesis says there will
be pain and childbirth because of Eve, and the reason
you desire for a husband will be because of Eve's curse.
My sisters were actually talked to this. It's hard to believe,
but Mom actually said, well, you know, the reason it's
going to hurt in the delivery room is because Eve failed,
and the reason you will want sex. I don't know
why they told me the story, but they did. It
was weird, but I was like, the mom said, what, yes,
the reason that we would want to have sax Mom
because they happened to not agree with this, but it
was just wacky. And so a victim blaming starts right
there at the Foundational Book of the Foundational Book of
the Bible, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely well. I was trying to point out, like,
why why is it I was talking about childbirth too.
Some lady in my life at one point when I
was a teenager and I was saying, why is it
that it's that our pelvises are not designed very well
for giving birth, thinking like why did God do that?
She's like, oh, well, God changed that once the curs happen.
That's wild of all things. Why would God go and
do that?
Speaker 2: I don't wait, wait, hang on you hang on. God
narrowed the hips as a form as a punitive messare.
Speaker 3: Exactly that's the punishment because Eve ate a fruit snack
one time, So now our hicks are having problems.
Speaker 2: You make it sound like a fruit roll up you
pick up at the you know, you know, I hear that.
Congratulations are in order. I saw the first on Facebook.
You want to explain what I'm talking about?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so funny. I'm having to rewire my brain
again from all of my purity culture, evangelical and doctrination
because I think I swung the pendulum so hard. I
was like, I'm never getting married again. I had some
really painful divorces because I was taught to get married
very young, and so I had the opportunity to experience
multiple divorces in my twenties, and now I'm lucky enough
to be in a partnership where I'm engaged, we're getting married.
We were very pragmatic people. We also love each other
very much, so there's the romantic aspect in the social construct.
But I was able to say yes to something that
I think it's only going to benefit my life right now,
and I'm really excited for that next phase of life.
Speaker 2: Can we peel back the layers a little bit on that. Yeah,
I didn't mean to walk over you there. I thought
I heard the end of a sentence. My fault, But
I was thinking, if you got married young, it's probably
because of that biblical command, right, I mean, don't let
lust burn in your heart. It is better to marry. Right,
So if you don't jump into the marriage bed early
and you slip, than you are of an adult arrests.
I guess was that it?
Speaker 3: Oh for sure? And I was taught. You know, this
is during the time of Rebecca, Saint James and the
Purity Pledges, where you know, it was trendy to wait
for your husband. So while I was being told stuffed
by my parents, even if they had never said anything,
I was reading you know, Joshua Harris's book I Just
Stateing Goodbye. I was obsessed with Rebecca Saint James and
her pledge to wait for her husband, and so I
wasn't just going to save my body for marriage. I
was taught that you don't even date anybody. If you
even have a crush on someone, that's the same as
cheating on your future husband. So I was really extreme
about it. So at eighteen, the first time I found
myself wanting to be in a relationship with somebody, I
was like, well, I guess this means I have to
marry them, because that's it. Otherwise I've cheated on my
future husband, so this must be it. And found myself
in a really bad situation and then in a divorce
after a year so and then repeated that cycle because
I was taught also that you can't fulfill your calling
in life until you find out who who your partner is,
and being myself that I've never stopped being. I've always
wanted to do things in life and have my own
place in this world. And I thought, well, if I
have to have a man next to me to get
permission to do that, then I'll just go find a man.
Speaker 2: Well, you'd tell me where the boundary is. If the
first husband is your soulmate and you divorce, pray, then
was that a mistake and the next husband is the soulmate?
Did you have this conflict?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think I. I wrote off the first one
as I had been deceived. That was, you know, that's
what you do. You say that you have such a
calling on your life that Satan must have really deceived
you to try to take you out of the game,
whatever that game is. And then the second marriage was
supposed to be that's God's redemption. This is him showing
me love and like forgiving me for messing up with
that with my eighteen year old brain making decisions for
life which should never happen. So that was my thought process,
that I was deceived and I did the best I could,
and now the second one was God's redemption.
Speaker 2: You mentioned Rebecca Saint James some context for those who
don't know, a popular Christian artist who actually came to
prominence when she was sixteen years old. I remember I
was in Christian radio at the time and her father
was touring whe her he was her manager, and she
came to the studio. We were friends, I mean to
a degree. We knew each other by sight and you know, hey, Rebecca,
good to see you, and we were just familiar in
that way. But she was one of these sort of
frontline champions for no sex until marriage, keep yourself pure
right because it is adultery. We had the true love
weights model where some people would wear purity rings. Did
you have a ring?
Speaker 3: Oh? I had a ring. I had a ring and
it was engraved with for you. I wait, And then
when I got married, I added on ed for you.
I waited.
Speaker 2: So I mean again, I'm not you tell me where
to go here. You're a teenager, right, I mean you're
in high school, innate natural desires from someone post puberty,
and I'm sure you're getting male attention. What's going on
in your skull?
Speaker 3: At the time, I think I was so heavily indoctrinated
that I just shut down anything. I definitely the part
I remember feeling guilty for was having crushes on something
like wanting to like hiding the fact that I was
text messaging a boy or you know, it was really
innocent stuff too, or like on AOL messenger. You know,
so it was wild, and I do remember getting a
lot of male attention from older men in church, like
married men and stuff, and telling myself, well, they're just
trying to be like fatherlike figures in my life. Meanwhile,
I had a very present, amazing dad, so it was
kind of weird. And I just remember being so weird
a out and just thinking I'm just going to be
a good girl and not even think that way, and
yet I'm wearing a ring advertising to all these creepy
men giving me attention. Hey, I'm a virgin. Everybody like that.
I look back and is one of the most disturbing
things is announcing to everybody I'm a virgin. And then
all the jokes being made at my wedding were so disturbing,
all the comments as we leave the ceremony because everyone
knows what's about to happen, which ended up being very
traumatizing to me. So it was just this weird, toxic thing,
and I think I had just shut it out of
my head for so long, which made it that much
more traumatizing when I found myself in a really toxic
marriage that was looking back, very abusive, very traumat for
an eighteen year old girl to go through.
Speaker 2: And you didn't know the difference probably for a while,
You're like, oh, no, idea. I signed the contract, I
said the vows. I'm stuck.
Speaker 3: I was so confused because I did everything they told
me to do. I did it the right way. This
is where I thought I messed up. We kissed before
we got engaged, and my parents had asked that I
not do that, that I make a commitment to not
kiss before we're engaged. And I was like, well, there's
the open door. And after that he pressured me so
much that I thought, well, now I'm tainted forever. So
now I definitely have to go through with the wedding.
And now I have to, like you said, I'm stuck.
I have to stay in this. It finally got so
bad that I just thought, you know what, if there's
an all loving God, then he has to be okay
with me dipping out because I cannot do this anymore.
Speaker 2: You said something that I have never heard before, and
now it seems so obvious. You were wearing the purity
ring broadcasting I'm a verse a bunch of creepy men.
Then see you as I don't know how to say it,
eve as fresh meat, right, I mean you're yep? Is
that accurate?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 3: I think that's so accurate. I think it's so weird
that that was ever a thing that people were doing.
I don't think it was necessarily created for weirdosh to enjoy,
but it absolutely had to have turned into that. Looking back,
it's so inappropriate and so gross to even acknowledge, and
much less, glorify the lack of sex life from a
twelve year old. It's just fucking weird.
Speaker 2: Remember, you know, in purity culture affected guys as well. Right,
we got into the you know, I screwed up, I lusted,
I feel ashamed, I'm not worthy, and then you fall
to your knees. Please God, please forgive me, make my
heart pure. And then five minutes later you find yourself,
you know, filled with natural, innate desires, healthy desires that
you've been programmed to believer are sinful and wrong. Takes
a lot of people, You've met a lot of people.
They're just still in the cycle, even logically when you
know it's bullshit, like the scar tissue in your heart,
you know that stuff is. It's hard to get over
some of that. I don't know how else to describe it.
I mean, was that accurate? Am I saying? Correct?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah? I think it's something that when you've grown
up that indoctrinated, when it's been in your head during
some of your most formative years. It is a lifelong
healing process, and scar tissue is a great way to
describe it. It's not something that's ever going to fully
go away. I went through a lot of therapy. I've
been with some really amazing partners that have helped me
sort through a lot of that healing. But it's definitely
an ongoing process. Even just getting over like judging other
people for the way they live. They're like I'll have
this like thought like oh that's not and I'm like, wait,
why do I have a problem with that? Why should
that bother me? And it's just interesting to watch that
continue to happen even after all the work that I
put in. Now I can, you know, feel the feeling,
notice that be like, oh that's silly, that's left over
from my past. And then it goes away. But it
lives on. It definitely lives on, And that's why it's
so awful because it is so hard to get over.
And to your comment about men, because I don't think
it's acknowledged enough how harmful purity culture is for men
as well. There's the obvious ways that it harms women,
but then it turns men into these monsters that they're not.
They're taught that they're naturally a horrible monster. And then
you know, women are taught that they have to be
the ones to fix them or to keep them under control,
but they're just not and they're made to think these things.
And I've watched it turn men into monsters because you
create something and make it this taboo thing and it's like,
don't think about the pink elephant and the room kind
of thing, and it just comes back around. It's so
toxic and so awful, and it breaks my heart for
everyone who's been through that.
Speaker 2: Well, let's flush that out. I'm going to infer horrible
monsters me And hey, they're guys. And so if a
woman is provocatively dressed or whatever, it's I mean man
or men. You know, they're just wired that way, and
you know they're primal and predators or whatever. I don't
know if primal would be a word I would have
used in the faith, but by monsters, you mean that
we are provoked easily. That's how we're made, and.
Speaker 3: Certain sexual urges. Yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 2: You become the gatekeeper for what I do, right.
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, So I was taught. You know, I remember
going to a pool party when I was twelve years
old and I haven't even gone through puberty, and I
am being asked by the mother of these boys to
please wear an extra large T shirt over my bathing
suit because it's not safe for her husband and sons
to be around me without that on. And that made
me feel so full of shame, so embarrassed, and I
can't imagine what her sons were told about things like that.
But when a twelve year old is put in that position,
where so you're taught, Hey, my grown husband and my
four little boys are going to have inappropriate thoughts about
you if you wear if you don't wear this, and
you better wear it or else it is your fault
that that happened, and it's bad. That's so messed up.
Speaker 2: Much more to come with. My guest Eve was framed
right after this hang on. I'm looking here at the
last segment of the year, the last few months of
twenty twenty four. I'm wrapping up my travels schedule with
a major speaking event, and then I get to officiate
some humanist weddings. I've already done a few of those
this year, and it's always an honor. Somebody is renewing
their vows, or they're getting married and saying the vows
for the first time. Maybe they don't have vows, or
just a statement of love and affirmation or whatever, but
they say, look, we don't want to do it in
the church, we don't want to preach your and we'd
like Seth to come out and be our officient. That's
always a kick. It is so much fun. And so
I'm going to be in Branson for a wedding and
then I'm taking my wife to New York City. Now
we're trying to figure out what to do in New
York City, you know, the standard tourist stuff. I've been
five times, six times in my life, but Natalie has
never been. So I'm trying to put together this laundry list. Well,
we're going to stat you a liberty, and do we
go to the One World Tower and then we catch
the Memorial And do we catch a Broadway show that
sounds good? Which show would we do? Is there something
else we're missing? What kind of food should we get?
And where? So I'm busy going through this list going
I don't know, I don't know, but I'm going to
be a pilgrim in a strange land because I live
in a city that you can drive all the way
across in about twenty five minutes, okay, And I'm going
to New York, which is there are no words for
a guy like me. And I'm usually good for about
forty eight hours before I overload. It's too much. I
can't take it to so many people in so many buildings.
I remember I stayed once. I'm just digressing. I'm sorry.
I stayed once with a host when I was speaking
in New York, and he had this awesome apartment in downtown,
but I was trying to sleep, and all night long
it was trash trucks and sirens and horns honking and
the shouts of people. And he just loved it. He's like,
I love this city. It's alive. It never sleeps. I
thrive on New York. Then I was lying there, going
get me the hell out of here. I think I
just overload, But until I do, it's magnificent. Somebody. I'm
putting that together. And then I'm officiating a wedding while
we are there and then and this is the point
I was going to make before I went off on
a bunny trail. On the twenty seventh of October, the
Rationalists of East Tennessee Wonderful Group have asked me to
come and do a presentation and that's going to be
one o'clock October twenty seventh at the University of Tennessee
Conference Center and all are invited. We'd love a chance
to see you if you are in or near Tennessee
or just want to drive it. Details at seth Andrews
dot com Slash events Continuing now with my special guest,
ex vangelical activist Eve was framed. I see on your
right arm a for the video viewers, you see it?
Is it a tiger tattoo?
Speaker 3: It's that's my tiger and there's my dragon.
Speaker 2: Okay, post religion or while you were in religion?
Speaker 3: When did you get the tat that's a popular question.
So I got these posts, but I was getting tattoos
from the day I turned eighteen. They were Christian tattoos though,
and I would get them when my dad was out
of town and my mom would be like, well, if
you want a tattoo for six months or longer then
you can go get it, like you have to make
sure it's something you really want. And so I was
always pushing those limits clearly, you know, saving myself for marriage. Yes,
not getting tattoos. No, I had to get the tattoos.
Speaker 2: Those were illegal in my state of Oklahoma until just
a few years ago. I mean we talk about blue laws. No, No,
you had to leave the state to get a tattoo,
because I don't know it was it was kind of
a blue law, one of those morality clauses. It was
still in the books, and tattoo shops they kind of
went up anyway after a while, and nobody prosecuted, and
then finally they just said, fuck it, let's just you know,
let's just make it legal. We seem to be late
to almost every progressive measure that comes down the pipe.
I don't know what part of the world you live in.
Are you in the Bible?
Speaker 3: Bell I'm in Tennessee now. In Atlanta, which was like
this nice little safe haven in the South, and especially
the neighborhood I was in was extremely progressive, and I
just moved to Tennessee, and I feel like I've been
slung in a time machine to the worst time period
in American history.
Speaker 2: It's just tell me what that means. Tell me.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know if you've heard about they
did these vouchers for school, so our education system sucks.
The fact that I see Dixie flags on a regular
basis not that you don't see those in Georgia. But again,
I was in Atlanta. It is everywhere you go. It's
pink cowboy hats, which is fine, and then like Trump
shirts and Trump hats, and you're always in a coffee
shop with Christian music blasting. Like the coolest coffee shop
you can find is still the meeting spot for the
biggest Bible study in the neighborhood. So just getting used
to these little cultural things has been quite the quite
the journey.
Speaker 2: Does the future scare you? You know, we're heading into
some pretty important weeks, the war on women. I'm sure
this is front burner stuff for you, right.
Speaker 3: It does scare me, And I think it's really scary
because I was raised in a very Christian nationalist culture.
If you've seen the documentary Jesus Camp, that really sums up.
I mean, I was around those exact leaders my entire childhood,
and you know, did the life tape over my mouth
and everything? So I grew up being indoctrinated to become that.
Thankfully I didn't, but I feel that I have some insight,
and I've been predicting these things. You know, people were
saying Roe v. Wade will never be overturned, and I
was saying, I'm telling you, guys, we were trained to
do this, like we have been preparing to overturn Roe v. Wade,
and that's just supposed to be the start of everything.
So what scares me is that the worst predictions I've made,
most of them, have come true. And it it It's
why I do what I do, because I don't want
to continue being right about this.
Speaker 2: Life tape. I'm sorry, I totally got stuck. I'm still stuck,
fair enough. What is life tape?
Speaker 3: Oh man, this is so bad. If you haven't seen this,
so we would put red duct tape over our mouths,
this is I'm like eight years old. I don't know
what an abortion is. I don't barely know what sex is.
I don't know about any of this stuff. And you
would break life over it and go stand in front
of the Capitol and protest abortion. You know, protest the
murder of innocent babies and intercede and pray. There was
a whole little prayer we would say, Jesus, I plead
your blood over my sins and the sins of my nation.
Something something into abortion, and send revival to America. That
was a prayer that we were supposed to, with duct
tape over our mouths, say over and over and over again.
Speaker 2: I was raised in it's almost a militarized culture where
we were supposed to go and take our country back
God right. We had Christian founders who believed Christian things
and founded a Christian country which has been stripped away
by them, evil godless libs or whoever. And we were
going to go out and we were just going to
become leaders in our community and politicians. And it was programming,
and it was really colored in militarized language. I'm in
the Lord's Army. We used to sing that song. We
would march in the infantry. We do the motions we
talk about. The weapons of our warfare are not carnal.
The helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, this sword
of the spirit. And I see now that that those
seeds of militarized thinking are manifesting. I think I'm worried
they're going to manifest in literal like a physical holy war,
some kind of Christian jihad. Am I overreacting?
Speaker 3: No, I don't think you're overreacting at all. I think
you know there's we know there are militias formed. The
rhetoric that I heard growing up in a quote prophetic
charismatic church was nothing but talking about battle and war.
You know, we war not against flesh, but they would
say that it's not against flesh. But then you go
on and it's like the most violent rhetoric, and and
we see a fascist dictator trying to take over using
the same sort of violent rhetoric. And so I don't
think it's I don't think it's overreacting at all. The
silver lining for me is that I do think this
is dying. I think this brand of evangelicalism this is
its last hurah or attempting to be and so they're
getting louder. This is their big attempt. And that's why
I do have hope that we can we can overcome this,
and we can move past it, and we can start
working on getting people therapy for the religious trauma and
the indoctrination they've received. But I do think it's getting
scarier before we reach a point of hopefully some sort
of piece.
Speaker 2: Well just call this coffee talk. I know this is
not you're not a sociologist, but I have heard concerns
in years past about let's call it the thirty and
unders apatheists. I mean, they seem to there appear to
have been a lack of engagement politically, they just thought
the whole system screwed and whatever. I just don't care,
but I have seen what I interpret to be more
engagement and urgency. Do you feel like you know new voters,
young adults. Are you think they get it? Do you
think they're they're chiming in and getting on board.
Speaker 3: I think they're starting to. And I'm honestly extremely encouraged
with gen Z because we're seeing that they are one
of the most compassionate generations that we've had, and I'm
hoping that that ends up resulting in a dimish of
their compassion and their care and being active in the community,
and that includes voting. So I see that only going
better for us.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not going to talk to an expangelical
without asking about your deconstruction. Come on, the doubts appeared
when oh they.
Speaker 3: Were always there. They were there from when I was
three years old, and I was very, very anxious as
a child, and I think looking back, most of it
comes from being taught that there was, you know, spiritual
warfare all around me all the time, there was angels
and demons. I knew all about hell, and I was
terrified of it. I remember so many nights just from
when I was really young, laying in bed, crying, praying,
you know, asking Jesus to come back into my heart
in case he left that day. I was so scared.
Because I was a child, I didn't understand even the
theology behind it all, and so came in. My dad
would explain about heaven and how great it's going to be,
and we're going to spend forever in heaven worshiping God.
And I would ask, well, forever, how like, how is
forever possible? And I would get anxiety just over the
idea of forever. I couldn't obviously understand that, and then
I would think, I can't sit through a thirty minute
worship service in church, but forever I am supposed to
be worshiping God in heaven. This sounds horrible. I would
rather just be over when it's over. I don't want
to go do that. So the questions were already there.
And what happened is in my you know, early twenties,
I think I started shifting some of my values and
beliefs to match the reality, which is that I loved people,
all people, And so I started becoming one of those
progressive Christians that believe that if you're gay, you should
have the right to marry, because I thought, you know what,
that's between them and God, and they should have the
same rights that I have. And I started even thinking,
you know what, I don't think abortions should be the
issue here. I think we should be working on all
the ways that we can naturally alleviate the need for abortions.
You know, I got really heretical. And then one of
the last things for me in my mid twenties is
I was like, how are we supposed to have and
all loving, all knowing, all powerful God in the existence
of hell? This just doesn't make sense to me. I'm
not finding enough biblical backing for at least the hell
that I've been taught to believe in I don't think
that's real either, and I think with the removal of that,
it removed a lot of the fear. And I was
twenty six. I was a worship leader at Bethel Supernatural
School of Ministry, which is as crazy as it sounds,
and I was thinking, this just feels like bullshit, this
feels not real. Because I was kind of behind the
scenes of the worship situation and seeing what really goes down,
seeing how the sausage is made, I didn't want anything
to do with it anymore. And I finally was able
to sit down with myself and address all these questions
that nobody had given me good reasons for. And I
was diving into the Bible and I was out of
genuinely wanting to get closer to God. I wanted to
get away from church. I wanted to get away from
the bullshit. And I was like, so I'm going to
I'm going to actually get close to God. And that
ended up backfiring and I completely lost my faith, not
just in the Christian God, but in the existence of
any God at all. That's a long story short, but
that's the gist of what happened. And I ended up
getting a one way flight from Writing, California to Atlanta,
where I grew up and never looked back. I left everything,
I left my marriage, I left the school of ministry.
I left and completely started my life over again, because
to me, everything had changed.
Speaker 2: You mentioned how the sausage is made kind of like
that saying, so if you see how church people operate,
was hypocrisy inside the church any part of your journey?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, there was so much hypocrisy, the standards that some
people were held to that the leaders were never even
coming close to. Also, it was so disturbing for me
was I was at this time as a student and
ministry does really diving into the Bible and Jesus's words
and feeling really inspired by them at the time. And
then I'm watching these worship leaders by their multimillion dollar
homes and buy their designer purses and pop their anxiety
meds and chase it with a beer just to go
lead worship. And I was so disturbed by the fact
that this behavior was no different and sometimes worse than
what I saw when I was in LA working for
different celebrities there. So that hypocrisy was absolutely disgusting. And
then I was being told you know you have your
anier monitors. I'm on stage worshiping and I'm being told
raise your hand, sing louder. This is a great moment
to get soft and maybe cry sing a prophetic song.
You know you're being coached the whole time. And all
of that combined seeing the sausage made I couldn't do
it anymore. It was going against everything in me. And
I pulled an experiment my last time leading worship. I thought,
I'm I'm not even going to try to worship God
because I was always I felt coming from a genuine place.
Today I'm going to act. I'm going to act like
what I think the greatest worship leader should be like.
And afterwards, the feedback I got was that was so
amazing watching you have a real encounter with God. Wow,
we all felt God's presence stronger than ever before, you know,
And I thought, oh my God, it's fake. It's absolutely fake.
It doesn't matter. I could be an actor. I could
not believe any of this, and I can do it
and convince everybody because that's all that it is. There's
no actual Holy Spirit showing up here.
Speaker 2: So what was called a move with the spirit was
more conditioned response.
Speaker 3: Exactly, yep. And the lights have to be a certain way,
the ac has to be a certain way. When we
bring the band down just right, when we play these
certain chords and we have a key change, suddenly you
feel the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 2: I remember when the altar calls what happen, they'd always
get that dude up on the synthesizer and they'd be
playing the piano and kind of you know, riff and
in that moving way. You know you could hear it,
but it wasn't too egregious, which distracted from the pastor's words.
But at the same time, you really felt it in
your heart, and you know, people would cry, and they'd
run up to the front and drop to their knees
and rededicate themselves. And when I got out, I remember thinking,
you know, there was a flow to it. You start
big worship leaders in the worship bands, they start big.
It's exciting, you're on your feet, everybody's bellowing, and then
you know, you drop it a little bit, oh offering,
Now let's do special music. And then certainly near the end,
we've got to be reverent and moving. And I thought
the same thing. I thought, condition to respond right anyway
I didn't know you were a singer. How did I
not know this about you?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's what I was raised to do. Since
I was very little. My mom had me in voice
lessons and I started leading worship at church very early on.
It wasn't my favorite thing in the world, I think,
because I wanted to listen to the music I wanted
to listen to, and that was forbidden. So I would
get Avril Levine's cassette and I would write worship music
on it, and I would wake up at five am
and when everyone was still asleep and listen to Ryan
Seacrest Top forty radio and finally get to hear the
Backstreet Boys new single. And so I think that made
me really frustrated because I was raised to think, you know,
if you're going to do something, it has to be
for God, and it needs to be in church. And
then there was a flip where my dad started writing
these books about the Seven Mountain Mandate Seven Mountain, which
is dominion theology. Basically, they you know, I'll they will
say that it's not you can go read it and
decide what you think, but the idea is bringing the
Kingdom of Earth or Kingdom of heaven to Earth. And
part of that switch in theology was that now the
best thing you can do is go become a pop
star and be a Christian doing it so that you
win souls over and you take over this mountain of entertainment,
so that now it's you know, infiltrated by Christianity. And
so then I was pressured into kind of going that route.
That's actually what I went to school for was to
study pop vocals. And when I left Bethel and I
stopped leading worship, it was so ruined for me. I
never wanted to do music again. I was absolutely over
it and swore it off. I always loved singing for myself,
and I love writing. That's my number one thing that
I like to do is write. So I kept doing
that for myself, but I was content to never do
it again. And in the last year year and a
half started getting back to it, and it's been really fun.
It's been amazing, and I didn't realize how much I
missed it.
Speaker 2: I can I confess something to you. I don't really
know her songs, but I kind of like Taylor Swift
like I love her. I mean, I'm like a strong, successful,
talented woman who I think shares many of our values.
I don't know how political she is being at the
time that this interview releases, but I have this theory that,
you know, before November, we're going to see something a
little more on the nose from her that she had
There was a documentary where she was speaking about the
war on women and whatnot. I saw a clip of
the beginning of one of her concerts. Holy shit, I
mean it was crazy. So you're a swifty, is that right?
Speaker 3: I don't know if you can call me a swifty.
I really like Taylor Swift. I think she's an incredible
songwriter and a really hard working human. And I know
people that know her or work with her, and they
have nothing but amazing things to say about her, And
that's so rare in the industry. Usually somebody on that
level you're not hearing very nice things about. People will
compliment their work ethic or say well, yeah, they're good
at that, but to also say they're just a genuinely
pleasant person to be around and work for, it's really impressive.
So I gotta give her that. I do hope that
you're right that there will be some more political moves
in her future.
Speaker 2: But we'll see I mean one of the I mean,
I hear this. I'm sure you hear it. We're busy
debunking the bunk when it comes to religion. People are
mad whenever we talk about politics, and I've said over
and over everything's political. Wouldn't it be nice to live
in a world where you didn't have to worry about politics.
I don't even know what that world looks like. Have
you heard this protest? Eve? Why are you being political? Oh?
Speaker 3: Absolutely? I reposted recently something about Jack White filing a
lawsuit against the Trump administration for using one of his songs,
and I said, that's so rock and roll or something
like that, and immediately people responded like, I didn't know
you were political, Like that's somehow Why do you think
I do what I do if it's not for the
fact that I care about the country that I live
in and what happens here and how people are impacted
by it. And I don't think that you can go through,
you know, quote deconstruction, or leave something as intense as
evangelical culture without evaluating the politics of it all without
having some sort of a stance. I don't think everybody
has to be public with it. I fully respect people's
right to say and do what they want. But to say, oh,
I just don't think about those things, I just don't
want to think about those things is a really privileged
position to be in. And it's and it's fake too.
You're not even that privileged because it will impact you,
whether you care or not.
Speaker 2: So it's public facing as you are. Mom, and Dad
got to know all about you, right They watched the
channel I mean on there.
Speaker 3: I don't know how much they see. They're very public too,
if you you know, Newsweek Politico loves to use my
dad for headlines like Trump prophet says blah blah blah
and then insert something crazy there. So we're kind of
both in this public light at different times. I try
to avoid seeing their stuff because I do have good
relationship with them right now, and I want to continue
that because I think we've had some good conversations and
I would like to have further conversations, and I'd like
to just be somebody that exists in their world, not
just as their daughter, but also as kind of a
somebody outside of the echo chamber, you know, And I
want to also be hearing what's going on. Over there.
They I know they've watched some of my stuff. We
had we had to talk recently and they said, yeah,
we actually just went and watched your last five tiktoks.
And I was like, oh, I bet that didn't feel good,
because we do have boundaries around what we talk about,
and we try to not discuss specifically. I would say
like atheism and politics, because I can hear their Christian
stuff and that's fine. I speak that language still, but
you know they don't want to. We don't want to
debate about my views because I don't think it would
go well for any of us.
Speaker 2: What are your tiktoks? What kind of stuff you're saying?
Speaker 3: Oh? I said something about trying to think I can
pull up what's my most I mean, the general vibe
is usually like, for example, here's when it says, how
do you not believe in God? Same way you don't
believe in whatever God's deities you don't believe in? And
then I listed yahweh zeus alat or Vishnu pap yo.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: So it's little things like that, and and some of
them are not very nuanced at first. You know, there'll
be something about like it doesn't matter how many people
you sleep with or don't sleep with, your value doesn't
go up or down as a human. And that's all
I say. And then I engage in the comments because
I really like to get people to think. I like
to create a quick spark. I want to create an
emotional reaction, because I think that's where the best mind
changes come from, is when it draws some sort of
emotion up that you have to look at. And some
people aren't ready to look at that yet, and then
they just get mad at me and send me death threats.
And some people I know that that emotion sits with
them and they take it and like I did, because
I would see all kinds of content on Facebook before
I ever stopped believing, and I know those things stuck
with me. And eventually, once I was brave enough and
once I was, you know, starting my journey of deconstruction,
I was like, wow, now I can address that meme
that I saw that was making fun of the idea
of Noah's art, because actually, I guess that really didn't happen.
So that's my hope is to just kind of spark
with these one liners or you know, little paragraph sparks
some critical thought in people.
Speaker 2: So is the front facing online activist space a different
space for women? You know the answer, But I'm going
to get a perspective from Eve was framed. Next, my
supporters get the show early and commercial free. Thanks for
your support. Paytreon dot com slash Seth Andrews, Continuing my
conversation with Eve was framed, I'm interested in the kind
of protest I get, you idiot, you know what a
dumb ass? I don't know I did that kind of thing. Yeah,
But for a woman in this space, how often are
the comments on sexual slurs? You know, the C word.
I can't I don't want to say it because I
hate the word, but I don't want to strike either
from you know, wherever the platform is. But I know
I've just it's a question I often will ask females
on the front lines because the way they go after
a guy and the way they go after you totally different. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Oh, I get the worst you can think of every day.
It's funny. I even get a lot of comments from
you know, people with the Bible verse and their bio saying,
you know, I can't wait till you're r a p
D so that you can cry out to God for help.
They will wish, you know, awful things on me, hoping
that I'll like that that will make me want to
come back to God for some reason. And then just
the general name calling. Sword b word get called Jezebel
on a daily basis. Recently, this is my favorite one.
I think this word is fine to say. Somebody said
congratulations on your graduation from whoredom, which I don't even
know what that's supposed to mean, but it it gave
me a giggle.
Speaker 2: So right, well, let's let's draw back. Then. That's kind
of a dark place, but it's just it's a it's
a place that I think needs to be addressed. Oh yeah,
and to watch the you know, the God squad so
often because I've seen that, well, you know, I hope
someday when somebody or I rape you. I mean, it's
just horrifying stuff. Yeah, you know, but I want to
draw back to you are the daughter of hardcore fundy trumpy.
I don't know what else to say, but I mean,
am I on that page and am I receiving that correctly? Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think more than fundy, they're the charismatic prophetic that
whole world because I wasn't that, you know, I got tattoos.
We were the cool ones. We had church on Saturday
nights because why not that way we could watch football
on Sundays and we can relatively dress how we want.
You know, we progressed as like I got older. We
were more conservative when I was younger, of course, And
now you know my parents they don't even belong to
a church. Just last I heard, they don'wn attend church.
They just run their ministry. So it's this very weird
like nothing matters, and you may make up all the
rules that you want because you have a direct line
to God and nobody can refute that.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm tracking. I've been doing some speaking about changing minds,
the stuff that is at least, how about the stuff
that we know isn't working. Walking into a room with
bullet points and saying, you dumbass, how could you believe
something so stupid is not working? No, calling believers mentally
ill is not only not working, it's wrong. And I
see some stuff in the I don't know, in atheist activism,
especially on the internet and the meme verse, that I
think just kick people back on their heels and cause
them to double down, and we're never going to reach
them that way. And when I hear you speak about
having conversations in a shared space, I get the vibe
you and I might be walking some of the same territory.
As far as our approach, You want to talk about
how you appro coach even the most fundamental believer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's important for people to know, if
you're familiar with my continent at all, that my approach
to a general conversation, what I'm just putting out there
from my own page is not my approach at all
when it comes to talking to individuals or face to face,
because that's what relationship is about. It's so different than
just making broad statements where I get to be like, hey,
this is what I think, this is where I'm at.
But when I'm talking to an individual, I think it
is kindness and compassionate and also much more helpful to
a conversation if I'm genuinely willing to hear what they
have to say and if I genuinely care that they're
able to hear what I have to say. And sometimes
that means not getting to say stuff. Sometimes it means
deciding we can't even talk about this topic. Because I
can't hear it from you and you can't hear it
from me. So my approach is very much relationship first,
and then whatever it is i'm wanting people to understand
comes second. However, what goes over all of that is
my own personal boundaries. If something isn't right for me,
if it's going to impact my mental health and even theirs,
if I really care about that person, I'm going to
look out for their mental health as well to the
best of my ability. So it's keeping all of that
in check. It's prioritizing the humanity between us both over
anything else.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, those Republicans don't have any humanity. They're all
not zis. You know. People think I'm exaggerating, but I
see all, oh look, yes, this is so much reductive thinking.
And I'm like, you just guaranteed that you will have
no meaningful conversation, no mind will be changed, And they're like, well,
they're not going to change anyway, And I just show
them a picture of me twenty five years ago and
say people can change right, back me up on this, please, yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, and that's my other approach. Even like when engaging
in the comment sections, people are always telling me you're
so nice and patient. On the line, they'll say you're
so nice and patient with people, and not to say
that I'm not direct and still hold my ground, but
it's because I'm always thinking in the back of my
mind about me. At like nineteen twenty years old, my
profile picture on Facebook was me with a Sarah Palin
pen on and you know, some pro life shirt. And
I was as extreme as it gets for some twenty
year old girl living in California at the time.
Speaker 1: Too.
Speaker 3: I should have been on the more progressive end of things,
but it it's so sad to say, well, they're never
going to change their mind anyways, and it's insulting to
me because I absolutely changed my mind. And I'm constantly told, oh,
your content isn't going to help anybody. Well, I hear
from people daily that it does, and that's exactly what
helped me. And if we think that we're not going
to change anybody's mind, then what are we doing anyways?
Like we should just have, you know, go in our
own little villages and never talk to each other again
and not even try and go form new countries. Obviously,
people change their mind. Obviously, people can be educated Obviously
people can be healed from this religious trauma and doctrination.
Speaker 2: If someone is watching now who still bears some of
the scars, even open wounds from what religion has done
to them, how any high control environment, you have any
words for them before we pitch your channel and call
it a day. I mean, I know you've got some experience.
How would you encourage your direct somebody?
Speaker 3: You know what I didn't hear enough is take your time.
It is okay to not figure out where you're at yet.
If you're questioning things, you don't have to decide today.
Am I an atheist? Am I agnostic? Do I want
to try this religion? Do I want to do this?
There's no, it's okay because you're not going to out
you don't have This is not high stakes anymore. You
get to take the time to really ask all the questions.
And that's my second thing I would say is whatever
question you're afraid to ask most, go ahead and ask
that one first. Get it over with. It's going to
save you so much time and you're going to be
relieved when you finally go down that trail.
Speaker 2: How do people find you? Your work, your channel?
Speaker 3: Whatever you guys can find me at eve. Underscore was
framed over on Instagram TikTok if you're really brave, Facebook
is happening. But that's some of the darker parts of
the Internet for me right now. And I am on
the line helping co host different shows over there, especially
Tuesday Nights Chewed Gum. We talk a lot about deconstruction
and sexuality.
Speaker 2: I wonder if they'll let us host together again. That
was fun. It was just an easy show, fun lot.
Speaker 3: I agree. I think it was really nice.
Speaker 2: Somebody called the line and you know, make some demands.
Damn it. Yes, our paths will cross again. You're an
easy interview on your sad back and watched your work,
and I appreciate your courage. I appreciate that you know
the fact that you really are a world change. You're
out there helping to encourage people. I will link to
your channels in the description box and we'll talk again soon. Okay,
thank you.
Speaker 3: So much for having me. This was amazing.
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