WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.320 --> 00:00:22.359 Hello, and welcome to Western civ. 2 00:00:23.079 --> 00:00:23.719 In today's bow. 3 00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:26.320 In this author interview, I'm sitting down and we're talking 4 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:29.920 about a new translation of the History of the Peloponnesian 5 00:00:29.920 --> 00:00:35.920 War by Thucydides. Now, this translation and the original I 6 00:00:35.960 --> 00:00:39.200 suppose thousands of years old, so you may be asking yourself, 7 00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:43.240 really we need another translation of Thucydides. I actually think 8 00:00:43.240 --> 00:00:46.479 this one is very, very good. And the difference for 9 00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:51.280 me is that it's one complete volume that's all put together, 10 00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:55.799 and it's very understandable in the way that it's written. 11 00:00:56.280 --> 00:00:58.759 You can tell that the translation stays true to the 12 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:02.280 original because I've looked at several other translations and compared 13 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:05.200 them and they're not wildly different, which tells us, okay, 14 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:08.840 we're on the same factual playing field here. But it's 15 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:12.159 it's more readable than some of the other translations that 16 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:16.599 I have picked up. Now, if you've never looked at Thucidides, 17 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:20.200 you know, history of the Peloponnesian War, you might not 18 00:01:20.439 --> 00:01:23.120 realize how long. It is. But this thing clocks on 19 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:27.159 it at about, you know, over six hundred pages long. 20 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:29.799 So it's a big history. And well, I mean it's 21 00:01:29.840 --> 00:01:32.599 a thirty year Long War, So I mean, I suppose 22 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:36.079 that is to be expected. The reason that I've always 23 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:39.760 thought that this, combined with Herodotus, are always some of 24 00:01:39.760 --> 00:01:43.000 the most important and critical reads, especially for students of history, 25 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:45.319 is that these are the first and these are the 26 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:49.959 first works that really show us what a historical analysis 27 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:51.920 of an event is supposed. 28 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:52.000 To look like. 29 00:01:52.120 --> 00:01:56.319 Now, of course, Herodotus and Thucidides, you know, we wouldn't 30 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:00.640 consider them scientific today. To often they go into morality, 31 00:02:00.680 --> 00:02:05.200 too often they go back on old tropes. But that 32 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:11.639 being said, our notion of history as storytelling really gets 33 00:02:11.680 --> 00:02:16.319 its grounds in those two authors, Herodotus and Fucidities. Of 34 00:02:16.360 --> 00:02:21.120 this specific work before then, if you look at accounts 35 00:02:21.159 --> 00:02:24.919 of battles and so on and so forth, they're very 36 00:02:24.919 --> 00:02:28.800 one dimensional. You know, as I point out in the text, 37 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:31.560 we just I'd love to know more about let's say, 38 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:35.599 Ramsey's the Great Campaigns. But what we have are some 39 00:02:35.960 --> 00:02:39.360 you know, stella, and we have some you know, carvings 40 00:02:39.800 --> 00:02:43.159 that give us some indication of what happened, but there's 41 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:45.879 no detail, there's no it doesn't come to life in 42 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:49.240 the way that Thucidites work here does. We don't get 43 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:51.719 a sense of any characters. We don't get a sense 44 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:55.479 of who did what, other than just simply ramses being 45 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:58.639 great and blessed by the gods and therefore he won 46 00:02:59.000 --> 00:03:02.400 you know that. But that's not history. That's just a description. 47 00:03:02.520 --> 00:03:06.080 That's just a list of things, and that is why 48 00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:08.759 it's so disappointing and why I work like this is 49 00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:12.879 so important. Now, before we get to the interview, I 50 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:15.919 do want to confess we did run into technical difficulties 51 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:18.520 with this one. There were supposed to have been two 52 00:03:18.719 --> 00:03:21.919 people on the interview and we only ended up with 53 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:27.120 fifty percent. So information about the translation itself we didn't 54 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:30.120 get into because we couldn't do that. But I was 55 00:03:30.199 --> 00:03:34.439 able to talk with historian Polly Low about the Peloponnesian War, 56 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:37.719 which is of particular interest to me. So the interview 57 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:42.000 is a little bit shorter, and I think still interesting 58 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:43.520 in a lot of ways. And I'm going to throw 59 00:03:43.520 --> 00:03:47.560 this out there as a teaser that as we wrap 60 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:53.199 up in twenty twenty six, the actual narrative of Western SIV, 61 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:55.639 one of the first events that I'm going to be 62 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:59.120 looking at in detail in a really long format episode 63 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:03.439 that'll come out after that will actually be the Peloponnesian War. 64 00:04:03.560 --> 00:04:07.039 I've decided yet, but it may actually be the first. 65 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:10.840 So this will kind of tease that transition, which is 66 00:04:10.919 --> 00:04:13.800 a long ways off yet, but still we'll plant the 67 00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:17.639 seed in your mind if you're interested in the Peloponnesian War. Oh, 68 00:04:17.720 --> 00:04:19.199 there's a lot more to come, and I'm going to 69 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:23.240 actually be referencing this translation again in that you know, 70 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:26.600 a year or two down the line. But if you 71 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:28.399 would like to pick it up now you can. It 72 00:04:28.439 --> 00:04:30.639 is available for purchase today. You know, you can go 73 00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:32.800 ahead and click the link in the show notes and 74 00:04:32.959 --> 00:04:34.480 have it at your door in a couple of days 75 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:36.800 if you want, or go down to your local book 76 00:04:36.839 --> 00:04:38.959 purveyor put it in order or see if they have 77 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:41.319 a copy. Either way is fine, but it's there for 78 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:44.199 your convenience if you'd like it. And so, without further ado, 79 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:46.839 after a couple of quick messages, let's just jump in 80 00:04:46.879 --> 00:04:54.600 and talk about the Peloponnesian War, all right. So the 81 00:04:54.759 --> 00:04:56.959 question that I wanted to ask then, as we sort 82 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:01.959 of inch towards the war itself, the Peloponnesian War itself 83 00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:05.199 is setting the stage of let's start with our two 84 00:05:05.240 --> 00:05:08.360 principal combatants, which I'm sure most people are going to 85 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:11.720 be aware of the city states of Athens and Sparta. 86 00:05:11.759 --> 00:05:13.680 And of course when I use the word grease, of 87 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:16.480 course that's an anachronism for the time which wouldn't have 88 00:05:16.519 --> 00:05:20.680 been used. So everyone forgive me, okay, everybody who is 89 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:25.160 getting angry at the their earphones right now. I am 90 00:05:25.199 --> 00:05:27.600 going to use some to mix and match terms for 91 00:05:27.720 --> 00:05:31.480 ease of understanding here. But this, when I was growing up, 92 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:35.079 was sort of taught as this almost existential struggle between 93 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:40.079 two polarly opposite political and social systems. So if you 94 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:42.399 could kind of lay the groundwork of to what extent 95 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:47.319 is that true and to what extent like what was 96 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:49.839 the situation like in I'm putting in air quotes grease 97 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.040 at the time of the beginning of the Peloponnesian conflict 98 00:05:55.079 --> 00:05:55.399 in war. 99 00:05:56.439 --> 00:05:59.360 Okay, so this is these two at least two really 100 00:05:59.360 --> 00:06:01.720 important questions in there. If we start with the second one, 101 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:05.319 the sort of the Greek scare quotes context, I guess 102 00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:08.920 the important thing to say, and you already made this 103 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:12.079 alluded to this point, is that there's no single nation 104 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:16.480 state of Greece. So we're dealing with a set of hundreds, 105 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:20.639 maybe even up to about a thousand small sometimes really tiny, 106 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:24.240 independent political communities. So it's a very sort of disperse 107 00:06:24.360 --> 00:06:28.360 disparate system. But these communities feel that they have something 108 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:31.360 in common, they have sort of cultural, linguistic other features 109 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:33.879 in common, so they would think of themselves as Greeks, 110 00:06:33.920 --> 00:06:37.000 but also as independent communities. So that's the sort of 111 00:06:37.000 --> 00:06:43.560 world that we're living in. Then within that Athens and Sparsa. Again, 112 00:06:43.600 --> 00:06:46.399 you're quite right, this idea that they're conceived of as 113 00:06:46.399 --> 00:06:48.959 sort of polar opposites. That's an idea which owes a 114 00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:52.519 lot in fact of Thucydides. He constructs this model of 115 00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:56.120 Athens and Sparsaer's two very very different communities, and that's 116 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:59.160 almost sort of part of his explanation for why they 117 00:06:59.240 --> 00:07:01.519 end up fighting, because they're so different that they can't 118 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:07.399 really coexist. Athens, as depicted by Fusidities, and also, at 119 00:07:07.480 --> 00:07:10.480 least to some extent in reality, is a well. It's 120 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:16.240 a more open community. It has a democratic system of government, 121 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:23.079 democratic in the ancient sense, so men have or free 122 00:07:23.160 --> 00:07:26.800 men have political rights, but a large group of the 123 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:32.600 population of Athens have political rights. It's very expansionist in 124 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:36.160 this period, it's built up this very large alliance which 125 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:39.959 has sort of morphed into something closer to an empire. 126 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:43.720 By the time the war breaks out. It's very wealthy. 127 00:07:44.759 --> 00:07:48.519 So that's a sort of very quick overview of what 128 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:54.160 Athens is like. Sparta is depicted by thucidities as a 129 00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:00.360 much more small conservative society. It has a very distinctive constantitution, 130 00:08:02.680 --> 00:08:08.240 which is has well has a slight democratic aspect in 131 00:08:08.279 --> 00:08:11.639 that there is an assembly, but the assembly can't it 132 00:08:11.680 --> 00:08:15.439 can sort of rubber stamp decisions. It can't make policy 133 00:08:15.560 --> 00:08:18.800 in the way that the Athenian Assembly can. It's probably 134 00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:22.800 really run by a small council, a council of old men, 135 00:08:23.000 --> 00:08:28.040 thirty thirty men called the Gruzia, which is essentially the 136 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:33.559 Greek equivalent of the term senate. It also has two kings, 137 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:38.000 very unusually, so it has quite a complicated political structure, 138 00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:43.480 but less sort of less popular control over governance and 139 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:49.799 over governmental decisions. It has a smaller citizen body than Athens, 140 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.159 probably its total population if we include the enslaved people, 141 00:08:54.399 --> 00:08:57.720 but it's probably the same as, maybe even slightly more 142 00:08:57.720 --> 00:09:01.240 than Athens, but the cities and the male citizen population 143 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:04.759 of Sparta is vastly outnumbered by the non citizen population, 144 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:08.759 so it's a different sort of structure of society. It 145 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:12.600 also has an alliance, but it's a rather smaller alliance 146 00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:15.960 and it's based really it's more regionally specific, so it's 147 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:19.840 based in the Peloponnese, the area immediately around Sparta, So 148 00:09:19.879 --> 00:09:23.000 it's sort of it's always a slightly more old fashioned 149 00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:30.159 source of system that Spartans have got going, contrasted by Thucydides, 150 00:09:30.200 --> 00:09:31.879 and I think there is some sort of it's not 151 00:09:31.919 --> 00:09:34.960 just Thucididies. I think this is something in this with 152 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:41.759 the more a dynamic sort of go getting Athenian system. 153 00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:44.120 And of course then I mean there's a difference in 154 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:48.679 their military structures, right, And this is again something that 155 00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:52.240 sort of was ground into me when I was a student, 156 00:09:52.360 --> 00:09:56.159 that the Athenians are this great maritime power that they have, 157 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.639 this the fleet that has been extremely successful really stitching 158 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:03.519 together and an empire. I mean then you know it's 159 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:06.000 the Delian League, right, but it's you know, it's an 160 00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:08.000 empire really in a lot of the ways that it 161 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:11.000 functions in reality. And then you have the Spartans, which 162 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:14.320 are of course build oftentimes is the pre eminent land 163 00:10:14.519 --> 00:10:17.240 power of the time. You know, they have an army, 164 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:20.000 and we're talking about you know, classical Greek failanx at 165 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:23.679 this point in history. And so the question that I 166 00:10:23.720 --> 00:10:27.039 have is like, is that true? To what extent are 167 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:31.879 there opposing military structures different And if that's the case, 168 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:34.519 if one is saying, well, we're going to be prerominantly 169 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:36.200 a landpower, the other one is saying we're going to 170 00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:38.679 be a maritime power, then then what's the need to fight? 171 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:42.399 You know, it doesn't seem like your spheres of influence 172 00:10:42.399 --> 00:10:45.360 are the same or that you're necessarily even competing over 173 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:46.200 the same space. 174 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:48.759 Yeah, so I think it is true, certainly at the 175 00:10:48.759 --> 00:10:54.639 start of the war that Athens is a major naval power. 176 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:58.600 Spartan doesn't really have a navy to speak of because 177 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:02.799 they're state. They've never needed to build up a navy. 178 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:05.120 And the amount of just infrastructure that you need to 179 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.679 have a navy. You don't just need we need to 180 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:10.360 supply timber, but you also need ship sheds, you need 181 00:11:10.720 --> 00:11:14.159 people who can build and maintain the fleet. Is extremely 182 00:11:14.159 --> 00:11:16.799 expensive to have to have a navy, much more expensive 183 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:19.799 than having a land army. Because a land army in 184 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:23.519 this period, in both Athens and Sparta is primarily just 185 00:11:23.600 --> 00:11:27.480 your male citizens some of your non citizens who just 186 00:11:28.600 --> 00:11:31.559 the in their spare time effectively go out and fight. 187 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:34.919 So that's quite a cheap way to do warfare. Sparta 188 00:11:34.960 --> 00:11:38.519 doesn't invest in that until really a late stage of 189 00:11:38.559 --> 00:11:42.039 the war. So yeah, So Athens has built up this 190 00:11:42.120 --> 00:11:46.320 naval power much earlier, sort of in the fifth century, 191 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.639 and has continued to invest in it and has passed 192 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:52.480 of building up its alliance. One thing that Athenians do 193 00:11:52.919 --> 00:11:59.960 is ask, or properly tell compel its allies to give them, 194 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:02.600 rather than sending them men, which would be the old 195 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:05.240 fashioned way of doing an alliance, to give them money. 196 00:12:05.879 --> 00:12:08.480 And the Athenians have then been spending that money on 197 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:10.720 lots of things, but one of the things they can 198 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:14.399 spend that money on is building up the fleet. So 199 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:17.519 this is definitely true. Then your second question in that case, 200 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:19.720 if they've got separate spheres of influence, why do they 201 00:12:19.720 --> 00:12:23.679 come into conflicts is a good question, And the impression 202 00:12:23.720 --> 00:12:26.600 we get from Thucydides is that in some ways the 203 00:12:26.639 --> 00:12:31.360 Spartans get sort of not quite bullied, but prompted into 204 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:34.159 going to war into responding to the growth of Athenian 205 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:39.960 power by other Greek states. So the Spartans themselves and 206 00:12:40.759 --> 00:12:42.960 the picture of Thucidies gives us wood for a long time, 207 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:44.799 and in fact, were for a fairly a lot of 208 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:46.679 time quite happy just to sit back and say this 209 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:49.720 isn't our problem, because we're strong enough. We could fight 210 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:51.519 the Athenians if they ever came for us. But we're 211 00:12:51.559 --> 00:12:55.799 not that fussed. But it's other Greek states, in particular Corinth, 212 00:12:56.480 --> 00:12:59.039 which is one another one of the larger Greek city 213 00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:02.759 states the north of the Peloponnese, but closer to Athens. 214 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:07.279 Current had been a naval power. Current is interested in 215 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:12.960 trade and it's got interests around the Aegean and the 216 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:18.759 Corinthians are worried that the Athenians are encroaching on areas 217 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:24.759 of Corinthian influenced Corinthian sources of revenue, sources of power. 218 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:28.159 And it's the Corinthians who go to the Spartans and say, you, 219 00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:30.720 as the other major power in Greece, you've got to 220 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:33.360 stop the Athenians, because if you don't stop them, then 221 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:40.799 it's game over for all of us, and. 222 00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:44.360 We'll get to the causes causes of the war in 223 00:13:44.759 --> 00:13:46.799 a minute. But I kind of want to back up 224 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:49.240 for a second before we get there and talk about, 225 00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:52.039 you know, the major conflict that people will know that 226 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.360 precedes this, you or the Persian Wars, right, and those 227 00:13:55.399 --> 00:13:58.240 come to an end, and if my memory serves plateaeas 228 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:01.360 like four, you know, seventy or three seventy nine, somewhere 229 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.799 in that, in that range, and so you know, it's 230 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:10.080 been forty some years roughly, give or take since the 231 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:13.679 end of the Persian War, you know. But my question 232 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:16.600 has always been, you know, to what extent, even during 233 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:21.039 that conflict, is it fair to characterize Sparta and Athens 234 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:25.600 as allies in the traditional sense or you know, because 235 00:14:25.600 --> 00:14:30.360 it seems like their cooperation breaks down almost while that 236 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:35.480 war is still going on. And so I wonder about 237 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:38.679 I wonder about that because everyone, you know, you look 238 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:40.799 at this and you say, oh, oh, the here's the former allies. 239 00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:43.919 Now they're at war. Were they really ever that close 240 00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:46.200 even in that conflict. 241 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:49.159 It's it's a really good question, a really hard question 242 00:14:49.240 --> 00:14:52.759 to answer because the sources that we've got for that 243 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:57.720 conflicts are written by people who know what happens in 244 00:14:57.759 --> 00:15:01.360 the Peloponnesian War. So if you Herotoesis as narrative of 245 00:15:01.399 --> 00:15:04.960 the Persian Wars, there's all sorts of clues, not very 246 00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.759 subtle in fact, that this is all going to go wrong, 247 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:11.000 and that already during you know, this period where in 248 00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:14.360 theory the Greeks are all united, there's beef between Athens 249 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:16.320 and Sparta, and you know, we can already see the 250 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.080 seeds of what's going to become the Peloponnesian War. But 251 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:24.440 Herodotus I think was writing during the Peloponnesian War. Some 252 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:26.159 people would put them a little bit earlier, but he 253 00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:30.600 knows about the Peloponnesian War definitely, and so it's it's 254 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:32.960 hard to know how much hindsight there might have been 255 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:35.879 that he's sort of writing into his account of the 256 00:15:35.919 --> 00:15:39.159 Persian War. But I think it's very plausible that already 257 00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:43.320 in the in four eighty four seventy nine, I mean, 258 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:45.720 Athens has already built up it's bi clete, it's already 259 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:49.240 been expanding, it's already sort of been developing its interests, 260 00:15:49.279 --> 00:15:55.120 particularly up in the northeaster gene. So I think it's 261 00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:58.840 entirely likely that the Spartans already might be thinking, hang on, 262 00:15:59.000 --> 00:16:01.159 you just need to be a bit a bit careful 263 00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.919 about how much power they Athenians could be building up here. 264 00:16:06.200 --> 00:16:08.120 And then when it comes to the actual spark of 265 00:16:08.120 --> 00:16:10.240 the wars, the official war begins. I think it's usually 266 00:16:10.279 --> 00:16:15.120 dated to four thirty one, which I'll say BCE. Whether 267 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.879 you say BCE or BC, I don't really care. I 268 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:20.679 mean you're dating it for the birth of Christ either way, 269 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:23.759 so I don't I'm not sure really you know what 270 00:16:23.879 --> 00:16:26.519 purpose we're serving by making a huge distinction on that, 271 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:30.159 but setting that aside for a moment. So the war 272 00:16:30.519 --> 00:16:33.879 officially begins in a way that a lot of major 273 00:16:33.919 --> 00:16:40.639 wars begin, right, not intentionally almost, and because of these 274 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.519 alliances and the alliance systems that have been built up 275 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:46.960 along this patchwork. I think you said one hundreds, maybe 276 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:51.399 the thousand different city states, And so I was wondering 277 00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:53.679 if you could walk us through the start of the 278 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:57.159 war and how the alliance system actually caused it. 279 00:16:58.960 --> 00:17:03.360 Okay, So I guess with the big disclaimer that we're 280 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:06.440 fucidity gives us a version of the causes of the war, 281 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:10.559 which is masterful and compelling and very sort of sophisticated, 282 00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:15.720 but probably very idiosyncratic, and we actually it's one of 283 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.319 the few places where we can see traces and other 284 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:20.559 sources of other versions of explaining the war which look 285 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:25.200 quite different. So we're talking about the Fucidities version and thucididies. 286 00:17:25.680 --> 00:17:29.240 His sort of master stroke is this distinction between the 287 00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.839 superficial causes and what he thinks is the true, the 288 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.480 underlying cause, that is the real reason, and the real reason, 289 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:40.480 he says, is this steady growth of Athenian power and 290 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:43.559 the fear that this caused in Sparta, and that's his 291 00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:45.559 sort of core reason that the war was going to 292 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:47.839 break out. So we're just looking at the sort of 293 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:51.400 the trigger factors, and there for the trigger factors, yeah, 294 00:17:51.400 --> 00:17:53.920 he identifies these these sort of almost like sort of 295 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:59.039 proxy conflicts. One of the important ones that I've already mentioned, 296 00:17:59.319 --> 00:18:03.519 or actually two of two of them involve corinth. So 297 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.599 the issue is that the Athenians are thought to be 298 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:12.160 encroaching on the Corinthians Corinthian sphere of influence. So they're 299 00:18:12.279 --> 00:18:18.279 meddling with a Corinthian settlements called Potterdaea, which is up 300 00:18:18.279 --> 00:18:21.559 in the north of Greece, sort of just south of 301 00:18:22.319 --> 00:18:25.720 modern Tesloniki and that's sort of that region, so a 302 00:18:25.720 --> 00:18:27.839 long way away from Athens, so the Athenians are a 303 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:29.599 sort of a long way out of there where they 304 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:34.000 should be. And then the other area where the Athenians 305 00:18:34.039 --> 00:18:38.680 are getting involved is Corsirah. That's modern Corfu, so out 306 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.960 in the west, another place where which had traditionally being 307 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:46.200 part of the Corinthian sphere of influence. And there's a 308 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:51.160 local squabble happening between Corsirah and another city called Epidamnus, 309 00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:55.039 which is on the mainland and what's now Albania, and 310 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:59.039 they one party appeals to Athens for help in settling that. 311 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:04.759 Aliens get involved take advantage of this opportunity to establish 312 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:09.480 their influence, and that annoise the Corinthians. The Corinthians, as 313 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:11.000 I said, a part of the Spartan lights. So they 314 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.480 then go to Sparta and say you've got to put 315 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:19.000 a stop to this. Then there's a dispute about Megara, 316 00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:23.839 which is athens near neighbor immediately to the north of Athens, 317 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:27.119 but again it's sort of between Athens and corinth So 318 00:19:28.039 --> 00:19:31.720 this is another thing that annoys annoys the Corinthians. And 319 00:19:31.759 --> 00:19:36.119 then the last trigger point that the sides identifies involves 320 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:40.720 Athenian really brutal behavior in the treatment of its near 321 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:45.039 neighbor agener and Ireland, just off off the coast of Athens. 322 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:49.559 So sort of two of those triggers really are to 323 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:52.759 do with the Athenians upsetting Corinth, and then that sort 324 00:19:52.799 --> 00:19:57.559 of has implications for the Peloponnesian Alliance led by Sparta. 325 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:04.279 Two of them maybe less direct impacting the Peloponnesian Alliance, 326 00:20:04.440 --> 00:20:09.119 but it's reasonable I think that those states, when they're 327 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:15.039 being attacked or disadvantaged by by Athens, might appeal to 328 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.279 other powers to try and help them out. And this 329 00:20:18.400 --> 00:20:21.680 is a recurring feature of how politics international politics works 330 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:25.000 in the Greek world that small states ask for help 331 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:28.359 when a big state sort of is making trouble for them, 332 00:20:28.359 --> 00:20:30.559 they'll look to another big state to try and help 333 00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:30.960 them out. 334 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:35.240 I mean, it's a hallmark of a lot of conflicts 335 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:39.920 even today. I mean, you can point on unraveling situations 336 00:20:39.960 --> 00:20:42.319 in the Middle East that tend to draw in some 337 00:20:42.359 --> 00:20:46.079 of the peripheral great powers, even though you know many 338 00:20:46.160 --> 00:20:49.839 would argue they don't particularly have a direct interest in 339 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:53.759 what's going on there. And so to me, it's a 340 00:20:53.759 --> 00:20:57.119 lot of rinsing and repeating throughout a lot of history. 341 00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:59.440 And I think that's one of the interesting things about 342 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:01.480 the pelop Anesian War. Into the question of why do 343 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:03.400 we need another translation or why do we keep talking 344 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:05.319 about it, it's because, well, it's one of the first 345 00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:08.680 times that a war is really studied in great detail 346 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:11.880 by someone who's relatively close to it in ways that 347 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.839 we just don't. You know, we know about some of 348 00:21:15.880 --> 00:21:19.359 the conflicts that you say, Rameses the Great was involved 349 00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:22.680 in in you know, New Kingdom Egypt, but we don't 350 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:27.960 have exhaustive written details on what exactly happened. And this 351 00:21:28.000 --> 00:21:29.880 is the first time that we have something about this. 352 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:32.119 And that's why, you know, when it comes to when 353 00:21:32.160 --> 00:21:35.960 we talk about history versus archaeology, well we have written texts, 354 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:39.119 and that's and that call goes a long way to explaining, well, 355 00:21:39.160 --> 00:21:43.200 why do we care about this? So the war starts, 356 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:47.079 and then I've always been interested in this point, this, 357 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:52.400 this first point. The war starts, and almost immediately into 358 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:56.319 the war, Athens gets hit by a plague, right, a 359 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.359 debilitating sickness, and the word plague is used. Tell me 360 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.039 what kind of you know, disease? We think this was 361 00:22:03.079 --> 00:22:05.640 that'd be helpful. And a lot of people die, and 362 00:22:05.680 --> 00:22:08.599 one of one of them is of course Pericles, who 363 00:22:08.680 --> 00:22:10.920 is the leader. And so I've always wondered of just 364 00:22:11.119 --> 00:22:16.599 how devastating was that in when it happened to Athens. 365 00:22:16.720 --> 00:22:19.599 And then I have an interesting counterfactual. But I'm always 366 00:22:19.640 --> 00:22:22.880 interested to hear what people think about the impact of 367 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:25.759 that specific event on really the rest of the war, 368 00:22:25.759 --> 00:22:27.480 which is going to go on for a long time. 369 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:32.440 Yeah, it's I mean to cities. Clearly thinks this is 370 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:36.039 extremely important. And the sort of placement of it in 371 00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.559 his narrative is so striking because we have the sort 372 00:22:40.559 --> 00:22:45.559 of this great positive vision of Athens presented in the 373 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.240 funeral oration of Pericles, and then we go straight into 374 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.839 the plague, which is just it's it's, it's it's awful 375 00:22:50.880 --> 00:22:56.039 and compelling, the awful. It's one of the really brilliant 376 00:22:56.039 --> 00:22:59.920 bits of of his his his narrative. What disease was it? 377 00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:03.440 Nobody knows. People keep trying to find out, and all 378 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:10.759 sorts of suggestions made, some version of TB some just 379 00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:14.440 a really version of something like Spanish blue Foot, but worse, 380 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:19.119 no one's been able to map it onto a disease 381 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.880 which currently exists, which in many ways makes sense because 382 00:23:22.880 --> 00:23:25.920 it will have mutated in all sorts of ways. So 383 00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:29.720 probably there isn't any exact equivalent Moond equivalents with this disease, 384 00:23:30.759 --> 00:23:32.759 but it sounds in the simities gives us this very 385 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:35.680 detailed description of what it's like because he himself caught 386 00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:39.119 it and was one of the few people who didn't die, 387 00:23:39.440 --> 00:23:43.640 and it sounds awful as a disease. But also I 388 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:46.720 think the really compelling thing about his account is also 389 00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:49.640 what he says about the effect it has on society 390 00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:52.680 and the way it sort of makes people behave in 391 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:58.000 terrible in terrible ways. We know that it was serious. 392 00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:04.480 I think has been one burial site excavated in Athens 393 00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:07.640 which has been I think persuasively identified as a plague pit. 394 00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:12.880 You know, just a large number of bodies in one 395 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:15.920 place without any any real any of the normal sort 396 00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:19.720 of trappings of a few NONI rituals that we would 397 00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:23.079 expect in and it's of about the right date, So 398 00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:27.880 it seems persuasive plausible that this this is you know, 399 00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:31.119 wasn't making this up, that this was a serious, a 400 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:36.720 serious thing. As for yeah, yeah, how whether he's making 401 00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:38.400