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<v Speaker 1>Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm really excited about

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<v Speaker 1>tonight's show. Once again, Jacques Vilet joins us. This time

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<v Speaker 1>it's going to be about his latest book, Forbidden Science six.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the journals between twenty ten twenty nineteen, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be talking about that and so much more.

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<v Speaker 1>And so this show is a pre recorded show. And

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<v Speaker 1>after following this at eight o'clock Eastern will be John

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<v Speaker 1>Kerry Out, who I actually interviewed back in twenty seventeen

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<v Speaker 1>about his CIA whistleblowing that ended up getting him in

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<v Speaker 1>big time trouble. That was on waterboarding, but anyway, he

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<v Speaker 1>had a USO amazing encounter. We're going to be talking

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<v Speaker 1>about that with him later on, but for right now,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm again very excited to bring in our guests, the

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<v Speaker 1>one and only Jacques Vle Hello, Jacques.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello and welcome.

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<v Speaker 1>And you're in sunny San Francisco.

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<v Speaker 2>We're almost neighbors, just across the bridge.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep, yep. I was in Tiberon, as I mentioned, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>for nine years. It's so beautiful that whole area and

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<v Speaker 1>very San Francisco is a wonderful cultural place. I was

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<v Speaker 1>involved in a antiques it was called the North American

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<v Speaker 1>Decorative Arts Association. We had these amazing meetings at the museum.

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<v Speaker 1>There great great stuff going on in that city.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so wonderful city because it cannot expand outside of

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<v Speaker 2>that peninsula, so it has escaped all the bad problems

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<v Speaker 2>of you know, very large American cities with lots of

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<v Speaker 2>freeways all over the place. You know, you can you

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<v Speaker 2>can live here without a car, practically.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, And you can't get north where I used to

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<v Speaker 1>live in marin from like say, the airport unless you

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<v Speaker 1>go through the city. You know, you always there's no

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<v Speaker 1>highway going through it. You have to go through and

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<v Speaker 1>you know, get there when you get there. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>really you know, I have a friend that lived in

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<v Speaker 1>the with the sunset district, and he told me he

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<v Speaker 1>would go an entire summer and only see the sun once,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, pretty depressing. You know, the what is it?

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<v Speaker 1>The coldest winter I ever spent was the summer in

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<v Speaker 1>San Francisco, you know that whole marked Wayne thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you can you can just you know, go twenty

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<v Speaker 2>miles south and it's fifteen grease warmer, So you have

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<v Speaker 2>a choice of climate. I still like gou to go

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<v Speaker 2>see doctor Norlan at Stanford once in a whif so, yep.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's a pretty campus. I used to actually do

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<v Speaker 1>benefit auctions there. That was a lot of fun. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>very nice, nice area as well, but it's very warm there.

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<v Speaker 1>You're right, uh quickly, and uh, well, I do miss

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<v Speaker 1>the area. I'm going to be back there in a

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<v Speaker 1>couple of weeks, going to be actually interviewing a Berkeley

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<v Speaker 1>professor that he's going to be teaching a course on

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<v Speaker 1>UFOs and I'm going to be in San Rafel alive

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<v Speaker 1>with him there, and then I'm off to speak at

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<v Speaker 1>that UFO con which is you know the first part

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<v Speaker 1>of April and San Uh where is that? It's right

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<v Speaker 1>where the airport is there? You go Burling game, Burlin game.

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<v Speaker 1>That's it anyway, So that'll be fun to be out

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<v Speaker 1>there again and enjoy the beautiful weather. But so this

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<v Speaker 1>book and h is number six, volume six, and boy

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<v Speaker 1>is it is it is a lot involved. You have

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<v Speaker 1>a very busy life. I know you do so many

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<v Speaker 1>other things, but so and I listened. I have to

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<v Speaker 1>tell you, I listened to a good part of the

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<v Speaker 1>Joe Rogan you know interview that you did and I

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<v Speaker 1>thought that was, you know, fascinating when you get into

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<v Speaker 1>topics kind of off but related, but and also how

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<v Speaker 1>put off, you know, he mentions that, and how fascinating.

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<v Speaker 1>I've always wanted to meet Hell. So I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>start off with a kind of a difficult question because

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<v Speaker 1>it's been posed to me. And when I was in Washington,

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<v Speaker 1>d C. A few months ago, are you hearing me

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<v Speaker 1>clearly more or less?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Okay, So when I was in Washington, d C.

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<v Speaker 1>I had someone that I would consider a skeptic, but

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I wouldn't call him a debunker typically, but

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<v Speaker 1>he came up to me and he said that all

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<v Speaker 1>UFO crash crash retrievals, all those stories about recovered craft,

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<v Speaker 1>everything dead ends at hall put off, and I just

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to get your opinion on that.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, you know, there are topics here that cycle

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<v Speaker 2>through time, that come back again and again and again,

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<v Speaker 2>and the UFO crashes is one of those one of

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<v Speaker 2>those subjects over the years. You know, the reason I

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<v Speaker 2>continue this journal is that there are very few references

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<v Speaker 2>that look at at time at things that have happened,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, since the fifties, since and I think we

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<v Speaker 2>need to preserve that record. And the stories of crashes,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, go back, go back to actually to fifty years,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and there is a lot of bad data

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<v Speaker 2>about it and stories and weird tales, but there is

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<v Speaker 2>also information underneath that has been gathered from people talking

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<v Speaker 2>around different laboratories, different universities. And both two subjects are

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<v Speaker 2>linked here, both the subject of the crashes and the

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<v Speaker 2>subjects of creatures you know, seen in connection with it.

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<v Speaker 2>So Roswell has emerged as one of the test cases.

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<v Speaker 2>But Roswell has problems because nobody actually witnessed the crash itself.

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<v Speaker 2>So in studying the literature you have to review a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of the data and of course the beliefs that

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<v Speaker 2>have been injected into the whole conversation. To me, the

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<v Speaker 2>turning point was, you know, the investigation we did at

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<v Speaker 2>Trinity with Paula Harris. Paula had started to interview two

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<v Speaker 2>men who remembered that as children, they had seen a

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<v Speaker 2>crash in nineteen forty five, two years before ras Well

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<v Speaker 2>and all the you know, all the explosion of sightings

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<v Speaker 2>and books in the literature and so on, and the

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<v Speaker 2>case at Trinity is was fascinating to me she had

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<v Speaker 2>already done four years of research. It was fascinating to

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<v Speaker 2>me because there there were witnesses and there were the

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<v Speaker 2>landscape itself sort of spoke about what had happened with

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<v Speaker 2>an object coming out of nowhere, hitting a large communication

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<v Speaker 2>tower and then crashing on that private ranch. So it

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<v Speaker 2>had not been spoiled you know, by a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people going over the landscape that case. As you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I wrote a book called Trinity that talks about that

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<v Speaker 2>case and two other cases of not of crashes, but

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<v Speaker 2>of landings that had a lot of scientific information attached

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<v Speaker 2>to them, and the case at t at at Valenso

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<v Speaker 2>and the case at SoCoRo that happened to be official

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<v Speaker 2>government cases. So taking those three cases together you can

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<v Speaker 2>form a good picture of what the you know, what

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<v Speaker 2>the craft looks like and what the entitase looked like.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think to me that was that is where

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<v Speaker 2>that's a good starting place for new research, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>based on what we know now about these that that nuclears.

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<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm. Now there were I remember when that that

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<v Speaker 1>book came out and I met Piela. I don't know

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<v Speaker 1>exactly how you say her name is. She lets people

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<v Speaker 1>call her Paula that I met her up at Shag

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<v Speaker 1>Harbor a couple of years ago. Very nice, very nice lady. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>I know that you took a lot of flack for

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<v Speaker 1>that because a lot of people were saying that wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>a real event. And I just wonder what makes you convinced,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I just wonder what convinced you that this

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<v Speaker 1>was a real event really happened.

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<v Speaker 2>So when you publish a book, you can't you have

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<v Speaker 2>no standing to say to tell your critics that they're unfair.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I mean, you publish the book, they have

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<v Speaker 2>a right to criticize it. And one man in particular,

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<v Speaker 2>took the time to do a lot of research into documents.

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<v Speaker 2>Now I'm not a document analyst. I'm not doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>I but I've spent a lot of time at the site,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've spent a lot of time with Powell, going

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<v Speaker 2>over her older records and talking to the witnesses that

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<v Speaker 2>were there. I think the criticism was fair, frankly, and

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<v Speaker 2>I have to admit that our critic did a good

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<v Speaker 2>job of digging up documents that contradicted some of the

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<v Speaker 2>things in my book. For example, there is a part

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<v Speaker 2>in the book I talked about who went back to

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<v Speaker 2>the crash site. When the father of the kid who

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<v Speaker 2>had seen the crash went to the site with the police,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and the name of the policeman that he

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned was wrong. That you know, our critic found that

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<v Speaker 2>this man at the same time was still under uniform

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<v Speaker 2>in Europe, you know, Europe was wrapping up the war,

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<v Speaker 2>but the troops were still there, so that was right.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, obviously his memory was wrong. But when

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<v Speaker 2>we went back to the story, he had been there,

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<v Speaker 2>so the story, the facts of the story were correct.

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<v Speaker 2>The name of the highway policeman was the wrong name. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>We found that highway policeman and he was involved later,

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<v Speaker 2>but the witness, you know, fifty years later, mixed up

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<v Speaker 2>the two names. We went to so I did a

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<v Speaker 2>new edition of the book. After researching the case, we

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<v Speaker 2>found more people who knew about the crash, We found

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<v Speaker 2>more people who knew about the traces, and we found

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<v Speaker 2>more people who remembered the whole episode, and they remembered

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<v Speaker 2>the kids actually showing there was one panel from the

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<v Speaker 2>craft blew out when it hit the communication tower. We

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<v Speaker 2>know where that communication tower was, and we know the

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<v Speaker 2>whole thing now about the story. They they there were

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<v Speaker 2>fragments of fibers that that glowed, that glowed in the dark,

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<v Speaker 2>in different colors and so on, and we found someone

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<v Speaker 2>who remembered being given some of that to put on

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<v Speaker 2>a Christmas tree. And I mean the the many of

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<v Speaker 2>the houses didn't have electricity or had electricity only in

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<v Speaker 2>one room, and the bedrooms were dark, and they used

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<v Speaker 2>that those filaments to put on Christmas tree and they

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<v Speaker 2>glowed all night. So we we found these people and

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<v Speaker 2>they remembered that those times and so on. So in

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<v Speaker 2>the new version of the of the book have gone

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<v Speaker 2>h case by case by case through all the the

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<v Speaker 2>the arguments of you know, our critics and doing additional research.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, the one of the kids, when he grew up,

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<v Speaker 2>became a businessman, uh in in in the state where

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<v Speaker 2>the the governor of the state was involved with the

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<v Speaker 2>Atomic Energy Commission, and she knew about his experience, and

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<v Speaker 2>he claimed that she showed him a report on the

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<v Speaker 2>case from the Atomic Energy Commission. Because uh the kids

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<v Speaker 2>claimed that the object was put on the trailer and

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<v Speaker 2>taken to Los Alamos. So if there are secrets, they

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<v Speaker 2>are not in the Pentagon type of secrets. So the

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<v Speaker 2>normal you know, normal clearance is would not apply unless

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<v Speaker 2>you have the nuclear clearancies, you know, the p Q

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<v Speaker 2>and other other clearancies on the nuclear side. Some people

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<v Speaker 2>in the Pentagon have both, but most people in the

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<v Speaker 2>military would have no reason unless they are attached to

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<v Speaker 2>a unit that has to do with the atomic secrets,

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<v Speaker 2>no reason to have access to those clearencies. So that

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<v Speaker 2>would explain why, as opposed to Roswell, why the case

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<v Speaker 2>at Trinity remained so uh essentially unknown, you know, until

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<v Speaker 2>until Paula Harris did the research at the site. So

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<v Speaker 2>the the new edition answers step by step by step

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<v Speaker 2>answers all the questions. So the the argument from our

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<v Speaker 2>critic was that, you know, the governor of the state

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<v Speaker 2>of Washington would never disclose a secret document. You know

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<v Speaker 2>that this would be against the law to one of

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<v Speaker 2>her constituents because she was a governor. And that's not true.

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<v Speaker 2>She did not disclose. She did not give him the report.

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<v Speaker 2>She didn't tell him what was in the report. She

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<v Speaker 2>said there was a report on that particular case. It

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<v Speaker 2>was an official report of the Atomic Energy Commission. So

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<v Speaker 2>that validation is true. And the critic, you know, went

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<v Speaker 2>too far. He never said that he had read the report.

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<v Speaker 2>So we went through every single one of those and

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<v Speaker 2>explain them, and in the process, you know, Paul Heinech

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<v Speaker 2>helped helped us trace another Another witness was actually the

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<v Speaker 2>grandfather who is still alive. You know, he is in

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<v Speaker 2>a in a hospital facility and his mind is clear.

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<v Speaker 2>He said, sure. I mean, everybody knew that thing had crashed.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's funny because Paul asked, well, you know, why

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<v Speaker 2>didn't you go there? And the man, the old man,

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<v Speaker 2>poor man, said, look, we had just been bombed by

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<v Speaker 2>the first nuclear explosion in history, and we had other

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<v Speaker 2>problems that going into the field to see, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a crashed object of some sort, and you people had

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<v Speaker 2>problems with their family, people had problems with their ranch,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's that's where the attention was. But everybody knew

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<v Speaker 2>about what had happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, well, I find that very respectful that you actually,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, instead a lot of authors may have been

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit arrogant. Well this is the way it is,

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<v Speaker 1>but you actually took the time. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>That's fair that people should criticize. It's not a question

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<v Speaker 2>of I believe, I believe, I believe you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean there is a this is you know with what

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<v Speaker 2>we're trying to do is science. I mean in science

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<v Speaker 2>you you criticize and you don't accept anything as true

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<v Speaker 2>unless it has been reviewed by your peers and the

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<v Speaker 2>experiment has been redone in slightly different conditions and so on.

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<v Speaker 2>But what's interesting in the case at Trinity is that

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<v Speaker 2>the object was an egg. It was Every paper or

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<v Speaker 2>every book that talks about it shows a disc. The

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<v Speaker 2>witnesses did not see a disk. They were very clear

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<v Speaker 2>about the egg shape. They measured it. One of the

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<v Speaker 2>kids actually pasted, pasted it and went inside. So we

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<v Speaker 2>know a lot about that object. Now, the object that

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<v Speaker 2>Socorro was egg shaped, the object that valensaw was egg shaped.

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<v Speaker 2>In all three cases, beings were similar. They were short,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were breathing air. They were the size of

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<v Speaker 2>the kids. They were about three three and a half

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<v Speaker 2>feet tall and they were breathing air. Now, what kind

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<v Speaker 2>of extraterrestrial is that? Okay? Right? But they did not

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<v Speaker 2>have a breathing yeah, breathing mask.

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<v Speaker 1>Always thought of things like that, like wondered how that

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<v Speaker 1>could possibly be. And if you know they are breathing air,

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<v Speaker 1>it would seem like there'd be so many things at risk,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, for diseases or whatever. Maybe those things don't

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<v Speaker 1>apply to them or whatever. But yeah, that's always been

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<v Speaker 1>a puzzle. And here we talked the egg shape one

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<v Speaker 1>who maybe we'll touch on, you know, Jake Barber's you know,

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't actually his video, but a video that was shown.

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<v Speaker 1>You know that that was interesting. But here's the thing

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<v Speaker 1>when this is back in nineteen forty five, and then

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<v Speaker 1>then Cape GIRARDU, Baby, I'm pronouncing that, Jerry, I can't

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<v Speaker 1>remember how that's pronounced. Cape you know, nineteen forty one,

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<v Speaker 1>what's it called? Let me just see Cape Girard something

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<v Speaker 1>like that. Yeah. So, but here's the curious thing to

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<v Speaker 1>me is, you know, we think of Kenneth Arnold as

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<v Speaker 1>people saying, oh, well, you know the flying Sauca era

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<v Speaker 1>in nineteen forty seven June, but this is prior to that,

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<v Speaker 1>and what of these people, you know, what was their

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<v Speaker 1>first impression of what they thought they were seeing? You know,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, could they go to the did they think

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<v Speaker 1>it was extraterrestrial? They just were totally puzzled. Do you

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<v Speaker 1>have any idea.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, as you know, I've I've been criticized by the

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<v Speaker 2>skeptics that I've been even more attacked by youuthologist for

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<v Speaker 2>saying that the phenomenon was not new. You know that

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<v Speaker 2>it didn't start that as well. It didn't start with

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<v Speaker 2>Kenneth Arnold, and it certainly didn't start at Trinity. I

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<v Speaker 2>think you can go back in history, and I have

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<v Speaker 2>done that. I wrote a book called Passport to Magonia

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<v Speaker 2>that went into the history, and more recently, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a book looking systematically at cases in the past, with

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<v Speaker 2>a team of experts in you know, researching older archives

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<v Speaker 2>and different languages, Latin and Greek and so on, and

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<v Speaker 2>we've reconstructed a list of about five hundred cases, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>going back, going back to antiquity, but being very careful

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00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.079
<v Speaker 2>to look at the context of every of every case.

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<v Speaker 1>And.

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<v Speaker 2>There are the the the idea of of an object

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<v Speaker 2>crashing and entities interacting with the local population is not new.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it has been in the archives, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>for a long long time, and it's always interpreted sociologically

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<v Speaker 2>in the context of the of the time, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>and for a long time those were those gave rise

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<v Speaker 2>to fairy tales and tales of you know, interacting with

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00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:44.480
<v Speaker 2>the devil and all of that, because it could only

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00:22:44.559 --> 00:22:49.480
<v Speaker 2>be in a in a religious context. Now it's not

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<v Speaker 2>in a religious context. It's in a scientific context. But

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00:22:55.519 --> 00:23:02.319
<v Speaker 2>the reactions and social reactions are similar. So yes, you can,

302
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:06.960
<v Speaker 2>you can go back and you find instances of earlier crashes.

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<v Speaker 2>The the point of pushing the modern era back from

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<v Speaker 2>forty seven to forty five is that forty five was

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<v Speaker 2>a watershed in history. I mean, the first atomic bomb,

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<v Speaker 2>the first really major major war. You know that of course,

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<v Speaker 2>after after the war in Europe. You know, I learned

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<v Speaker 2>in school that the war was over when Hitler died.

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<v Speaker 2>Well it's not true. The war went on in Japan,

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<v Speaker 2>went on in the Pacific, and in fact, the major

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00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.480
<v Speaker 2>battle of the war was going to be in the

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00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:59.799
<v Speaker 2>north of Japan. So I've read all the new, the

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<v Speaker 2>more mo recent history books that have come after the

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00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:08.599
<v Speaker 2>archives have been opened after fifty years, fifty years after

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00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:13.000
<v Speaker 2>the war, all the archives had been reconstructed and were opened,

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<v Speaker 2>and some outstanding books have been published by historians, professional historians,

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00:24:20.599 --> 00:24:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and I've read them and they paint a completely different

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00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:29.039
<v Speaker 2>picture of the end of World War two. And you know,

319
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:34.839
<v Speaker 2>in the aftermath in America then what I learned in school,

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<v Speaker 2>So you have to replace the UFO phenomenon into that

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00:24:44.519 --> 00:24:47.920
<v Speaker 2>new picture of what happened after the war and what

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00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:52.759
<v Speaker 2>happened during the war, including the fact that the leading

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00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:56.559
<v Speaker 2>American generals did not want to use the bomb, contrary

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<v Speaker 2>to what people say, you know, they were they wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to go ahead, and you know, and people in Europe say,

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00:25:03.759 --> 00:25:09.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, those Americans, they are always looking for the newer,

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00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:16.279
<v Speaker 2>bigger thing, and you know, in war, and Eisenhower went

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00:25:16.400 --> 00:25:19.880
<v Speaker 2>to see Truman in Washington to tell him that the

329
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:24.279
<v Speaker 2>army did not want to use the bomb. It was

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<v Speaker 2>President Truman's decision, and they what I learned about, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>American history is made more of an impact on me

332
00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:41.160
<v Speaker 2>as I was writing that book, you know, with power.

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<v Speaker 2>Then the UFO story itself, I had to relearn really

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00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:51.680
<v Speaker 2>the history of the war and you know, the history

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00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:55.599
<v Speaker 2>of you know, the country where I was born, in France,

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00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and the history of America. So I think it was

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00:26:01.039 --> 00:26:06.400
<v Speaker 2>a very rich you know, it's probably the book I've

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00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:10.400
<v Speaker 2>spent the most time on and the most attention. I've

339
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:15.039
<v Speaker 2>gone back back and forth to New Mexico. I've gotten

340
00:26:15.079 --> 00:26:20.039
<v Speaker 2>to know New Mexico pretty well. Uh and uh, you know,

341
00:26:20.200 --> 00:26:24.960
<v Speaker 2>it's it was a very rich experience for me and

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00:26:25.000 --> 00:26:27.559
<v Speaker 2>I soonly learned a lot about history.

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00:26:28.039 --> 00:26:31.039
<v Speaker 1>Right the book he wrote, Wonders in the Sky. I

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00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:34.920
<v Speaker 1>love that with Chris Auback, who's who's been on this

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00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:38.319
<v Speaker 1>show before and one of you know, one of my

346
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:41.519
<v Speaker 1>favorite guests. He was really great and that whole thing.

347
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<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm I'm I'm in the antiques world, so

348
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:47.680
<v Speaker 1>history is a lot a big part of that, and

349
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:52.039
<v Speaker 1>I love history and that that book was really really

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00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:56.000
<v Speaker 1>quite amazing. And you know, there was the dispelled one

351
00:26:56.039 --> 00:26:59.160
<v Speaker 1>that you hear come up now and then, and I'm

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00:26:59.160 --> 00:27:02.119
<v Speaker 1>trying to think of which one it was. Alexander the

353
00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:05.359
<v Speaker 1>Great supposedly saw shields in the sky, but that only

354
00:27:05.400 --> 00:27:08.119
<v Speaker 1>traces back to nineteen fifty two in some novel or

355
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:11.759
<v Speaker 1>something like that. So you know, the research involved in

356
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:13.960
<v Speaker 1>what you did must have been pretty intense.

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00:27:17.200 --> 00:27:21.160
<v Speaker 2>I've got a pretty good library research that, you know,

358
00:27:21.319 --> 00:27:28.000
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I go back to Europe periodically from

359
00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:35.279
<v Speaker 2>my investment work, and I always take the time to

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00:27:35.640 --> 00:27:40.680
<v Speaker 2>visit the you know, the libraries and there to look

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00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:48.000
<v Speaker 2>for new material. And it's it's fascinating too. You know,

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00:27:48.039 --> 00:27:52.799
<v Speaker 2>that's something you can learn all along throughout your life

363
00:27:53.240 --> 00:27:55.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm still learning and I like that.

364
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, you know that's I love doing this because

365
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:02.880
<v Speaker 1>you know, there was a point at one time where

366
00:28:02.920 --> 00:28:04.640
<v Speaker 1>I was a little bit discouraged, but it was because

367
00:28:04.680 --> 00:28:07.319
<v Speaker 1>there was a lot of infighting, you know, which you've

368
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:11.400
<v Speaker 1>seen many times over the years. But other than that,

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00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:16.920
<v Speaker 1>this is just as exciting as when I first started,

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00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:20.640
<v Speaker 1>maybe even more. Well, we're in very interesting times right now.

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<v Speaker 2>You know.

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<v Speaker 1>There's so many people that like, oh, you were in

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<v Speaker 1>this before twenty seventeen, you know, like, oh yeah, and

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00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:32.720
<v Speaker 1>you know it was really I just want to just

375
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:37.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, talk quickly about this. But you know, we

376
00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:39.839
<v Speaker 1>were involved in a group situation, you and I and

377
00:28:39.880 --> 00:28:42.759
<v Speaker 1>several other people when it came to the passing of

378
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:47.880
<v Speaker 1>our great friend Lee Spiegel. And I still miss Lee.

379
00:28:47.920 --> 00:28:50.599
<v Speaker 1>I think about him all the time. He was such

380
00:28:50.640 --> 00:28:51.480
<v Speaker 1>a great spirit.

381
00:28:53.160 --> 00:28:58.279
<v Speaker 2>I miss him because he was of course he single

382
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:03.720
<v Speaker 2>handedly all going is the testimony before the United Nations.

383
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.680
<v Speaker 2>You know, they went back in seventy eight and we

384
00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:12.359
<v Speaker 2>were still talking about redoing it, you know, and it

385
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:16.839
<v Speaker 2>should be brought to the UN at some point, just

386
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:20.720
<v Speaker 2>to clear the you know, all the clutter and so on,

387
00:29:20.799 --> 00:29:25.240
<v Speaker 2>and have a clear statement before the world, you know

388
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:29.200
<v Speaker 2>that this is real, this is happening. I doubt that

389
00:29:29.279 --> 00:29:34.680
<v Speaker 2>the UN would actually do very much with it, but

390
00:29:34.920 --> 00:29:40.680
<v Speaker 2>they they could certainly serve, which is what we proposed,

391
00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:44.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, serve as a clearing house for people in

392
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:49.720
<v Speaker 2>different nations interested in sharing their information, you know, without

393
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:55.240
<v Speaker 2>the UN investing a lot of money and manpower into

394
00:29:55.279 --> 00:29:59.160
<v Speaker 2>the problem itself, that it it's an ideal place for

395
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:05.160
<v Speaker 2>people to meet and exchange data, you know, peacefully, because

396
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:08.519
<v Speaker 2>if if the phenomenon is what we think it is,

397
00:30:09.359 --> 00:30:13.880
<v Speaker 2>then it's yes, it is potentially a threat, and it's

398
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:19.720
<v Speaker 2>certainly a focus of intelligence and a focus of research

399
00:30:19.839 --> 00:30:25.200
<v Speaker 2>for every country big and small.

400
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Right, I mean, it's a it always like just for instance,

401
00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:32.519
<v Speaker 1>when there's an there has been issues with disarming nukes

402
00:30:32.519 --> 00:30:35.599
<v Speaker 1>and things like that, with these you know, with UFOs involved,

403
00:30:36.039 --> 00:30:39.440
<v Speaker 1>how can that not be considered national security? I mean

404
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:42.759
<v Speaker 1>that's such a big puzzle. Like I remember the very

405
00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:46.519
<v Speaker 1>first hearing they had, the people involved in that, the

406
00:30:46.599 --> 00:30:49.680
<v Speaker 1>Oversight Committee whatever it was, had no idea about these

407
00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:54.240
<v Speaker 1>type of situations that happened and you know that's it's

408
00:30:54.279 --> 00:30:59.440
<v Speaker 1>such a puzzle. Yes, yeah, So going off a topic

409
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.839
<v Speaker 1>just a little little bit, because when the Wilson Memo

410
00:31:03.960 --> 00:31:08.240
<v Speaker 1>first came out, I was totally thinking it was not right.

411
00:31:09.079 --> 00:31:11.640
<v Speaker 1>And you know, I've gone back and forth, been on

412
00:31:11.680 --> 00:31:14.519
<v Speaker 1>the fence over the years about it, and I just

413
00:31:14.799 --> 00:31:18.400
<v Speaker 1>I've never asked you this, what is your opinion of

414
00:31:18.440 --> 00:31:19.839
<v Speaker 1>the Wilson memo?

415
00:31:25.680 --> 00:31:34.960
<v Speaker 2>You mean the memo about postponing the Air Force review

416
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:42.759
<v Speaker 2>with the five scientists in nineteen in the fifties, in

417
00:31:42.839 --> 00:31:51.599
<v Speaker 2>the early fifties, that there were several things. You know.

418
00:31:51.680 --> 00:31:56.039
<v Speaker 2>What happened essentially is that when I went through when

419
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:59.640
<v Speaker 2>I was working with doctor Heinek at Northwestern, I took

420
00:32:00.359 --> 00:32:05.319
<v Speaker 2>time during a summer when the university was relatively quiet.

421
00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:10.480
<v Speaker 2>Then I had my PhD in AI of all things,

422
00:32:11.079 --> 00:32:14.160
<v Speaker 2>and I was working at the computation Center, and I

423
00:32:14.200 --> 00:32:18.240
<v Speaker 2>had my office there, and I used my office as

424
00:32:18.279 --> 00:32:23.160
<v Speaker 2>a repository for doctor Heinex files during the summer to

425
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:33.240
<v Speaker 2>essentially convert everything into computer into computer records. And in

426
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:40.000
<v Speaker 2>the fives there were other things that were not sightings themselves,

427
00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:44.480
<v Speaker 2>but were related to the history of the field memos correspondence,

428
00:32:44.960 --> 00:32:48.880
<v Speaker 2>the Air Force and so on, And there was a

429
00:32:49.000 --> 00:32:55.200
<v Speaker 2>file that had to do with a meeting organized by

430
00:32:55.240 --> 00:33:02.200
<v Speaker 2>the Air Force to review its procedures in processing UFO reports,

431
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:06.359
<v Speaker 2>and it was classified at the time, although a lot

432
00:33:06.400 --> 00:33:09.920
<v Speaker 2>of information came out later and now we know that

433
00:33:10.359 --> 00:33:14.640
<v Speaker 2>that is the meeting at which and doctor Heinek was

434
00:33:14.640 --> 00:33:18.599
<v Speaker 2>one of the witnesses. He did not attend all the meetings,

435
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:22.640
<v Speaker 2>but he was called in periodically when they needed his

436
00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:28.599
<v Speaker 2>input about the Air Force fires. And that the meeting

437
00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:33.119
<v Speaker 2>that decided to split the research on UFOs into two.

438
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:39.359
<v Speaker 2>First continue with Project Bluebook, which was unclassified. Contrary to

439
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:43.240
<v Speaker 2>what everybody says, you know they talk about the secret files,

440
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:46.599
<v Speaker 2>they were not secret. The whole idea was this should

441
00:33:46.680 --> 00:33:51.200
<v Speaker 2>be public public access and you know, just to monitor

442
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:55.960
<v Speaker 2>what people were seeing, unsure that the government was open

443
00:33:56.319 --> 00:34:00.599
<v Speaker 2>to what the public was reporting. And then there was

444
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:07.960
<v Speaker 2>there would be a classified high technology approach using instruments,

445
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:13.079
<v Speaker 2>because the idea from the scientists in the group was no, never,

446
00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:17.760
<v Speaker 2>we don't need any more cases from you know, somebody

447
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:21.760
<v Speaker 2>who's seen a light outside the window. We want we

448
00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:25.639
<v Speaker 2>want to measure things. We've got instruments now in the

449
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Air Force where and elsewhere where. We can measure the

450
00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:35.360
<v Speaker 2>intensity of light, we can track trajectories, we can compute

451
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.920
<v Speaker 2>all that, and that's what we should be doing, and

452
00:34:37.960 --> 00:34:40.760
<v Speaker 2>that's how we're going to solve the problem. Well, that

453
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:44.000
<v Speaker 2>didn't work, but in the process, you know, the Air

454
00:34:44.039 --> 00:34:51.159
<v Speaker 2>Force fives blossomed. What people didn't know was that most

455
00:34:51.280 --> 00:34:59.840
<v Speaker 2>of the Battel Memorial Institute in Columbus had received a

456
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:02.760
<v Speaker 2>a large amount of money for the time to do

457
00:35:02.840 --> 00:35:07.679
<v Speaker 2>a catalog of the Air Force fives and they produced

458
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:14.519
<v Speaker 2>a report called Report fourteen, which was admirable from a

459
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:17.800
<v Speaker 2>computer science point of view. Of course, computer science in

460
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.920
<v Speaker 2>those days was fairly primitive, but the statistics were you know,

461
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:27.239
<v Speaker 2>statistics were very well developed. And what I found in

462
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:35.760
<v Speaker 2>that file was a two page letter stamped secret from

463
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:43.280
<v Speaker 2>Battel to the organizers of the session of the conference.

464
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:49.840
<v Speaker 2>The conference was inviting the five leading physicists in the US,

465
00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:54.599
<v Speaker 2>including a couple including a Nobel Price. So this was

466
00:35:54.760 --> 00:36:01.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, this was serious science. It wasn't organized by

467
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:04.519
<v Speaker 2>the Air Force. It was organized by the Air Force

468
00:36:04.800 --> 00:36:10.480
<v Speaker 2>on behalf of the CIA. Uh So that was that

469
00:36:10.679 --> 00:36:14.400
<v Speaker 2>was new to me. I had always everybody has been

470
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:17.880
<v Speaker 2>told in all the published records. This was an Air

471
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:22.280
<v Speaker 2>Force meeting. It was a CIA meeting delegated to the

472
00:36:22.320 --> 00:36:29.639
<v Speaker 2>Air Force. The other thing that was shocking was that

473
00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:33.800
<v Speaker 2>battel who wanted to postpone the meeting. They said, we're

474
00:36:33.840 --> 00:36:38.239
<v Speaker 2>not ready. Uh you're you're calling all these high level

475
00:36:38.719 --> 00:36:42.840
<v Speaker 2>scientists and so on, but we we need more time

476
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:46.119
<v Speaker 2>to work on the data, to present them with something

477
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:55.679
<v Speaker 2>that's going to be scientifically uh sufficiently developed for them

478
00:36:55.760 --> 00:36:58.760
<v Speaker 2>to put their attention on it and and reach some

479
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:03.199
<v Speaker 2>scientific conclude it's premature to do it now. Well, the

480
00:37:03.719 --> 00:37:07.199
<v Speaker 2>Air Force and their sponsors wanted to get rid of

481
00:37:07.239 --> 00:37:11.119
<v Speaker 2>the problem, which was was the whole point, and they

482
00:37:12.039 --> 00:37:15.440
<v Speaker 2>they didn't care if they lied to Nobel Prize in

483
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:22.760
<v Speaker 2>physics in the process. Now that was so. I learned

484
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:27.280
<v Speaker 2>a lot by reading that, except that I wasn't supposed

485
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:36.159
<v Speaker 2>to read it. You know, it was secret. So I

486
00:37:36.280 --> 00:37:41.679
<v Speaker 2>wasn't going to just you know, Russian publish it because

487
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:45.360
<v Speaker 2>I had no absolutely no right to do that. And

488
00:37:45.440 --> 00:37:53.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm you know, I've always been very respectful. I can't

489
00:37:53.960 --> 00:37:57.559
<v Speaker 2>tell the American government what to do with this problem. Okay,

490
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:02.880
<v Speaker 2>that's not my role. My role is as a scientist,

491
00:38:03.079 --> 00:38:07.159
<v Speaker 2>especially as an information science guy to be part of

492
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:10.159
<v Speaker 2>the team that's going to look at the problem. And

493
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:13.119
<v Speaker 2>I think we can, we can go a long way

494
00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:17.920
<v Speaker 2>to helping solve it, helping other people solve it. But

495
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:21.920
<v Speaker 2>there is a community of scientists that has certain rules.

496
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:30.639
<v Speaker 2>So by then I had been contacted before by someone

497
00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:34.960
<v Speaker 2>who worked for Congress, in fact, worked for the Intelligence

498
00:38:34.960 --> 00:38:39.599
<v Speaker 2>Committee of the Senate, which is really the top here.

499
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:43.599
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's those other people who can decide what's

500
00:38:43.719 --> 00:38:50.639
<v Speaker 2>really going to happen. And he was a legal expert

501
00:38:50.719 --> 00:38:54.320
<v Speaker 2>from Washington, and he was working for the chairman of

502
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:59.960
<v Speaker 2>the Intelligence Committee of the Senate, and he contacted me

503
00:39:00.440 --> 00:39:03.760
<v Speaker 2>about some other cases and I knew about in Europe

504
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:09.719
<v Speaker 2>where he wanted to have some corroboration about about what

505
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:15.400
<v Speaker 2>had happened, and uh so I contacted after that. I

506
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:19.320
<v Speaker 2>contacted him because I knew he had He had told

507
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.920
<v Speaker 2>me that he was reviewing yearly, he was reviewing all

508
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:27.440
<v Speaker 2>the classified projects in the Pentagon, in the d O D.

509
00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:32.639
<v Speaker 2>So I told him that I had something that I

510
00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:35.559
<v Speaker 2>didn't know what to do with that was stamped secret

511
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:42.519
<v Speaker 2>and I should be invited him to tell me what

512
00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:46.199
<v Speaker 2>to how to treat it and he said, send it

513
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:50.480
<v Speaker 2>to me and I'll tell you. And I sent it

514
00:39:50.519 --> 00:39:54.840
<v Speaker 2>to him and he declassified it so that now everybody

515
00:39:54.880 --> 00:40:02.199
<v Speaker 2>can see it. One of the UFO groups for group you. Unfortunately,

516
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:07.079
<v Speaker 2>they keep fighting among themselves and they fight against anyone

517
00:40:07.159 --> 00:40:12.239
<v Speaker 2>who doesn't have exactly the same political orientation. You know

518
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:16.639
<v Speaker 2>that all the wars immediately said that I had invented

519
00:40:16.679 --> 00:40:20.079
<v Speaker 2>that whole story. Well, I didn't invent it, because I

520
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:22.719
<v Speaker 2>have you know, a letter in my five it says

521
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:26.800
<v Speaker 2>that this was declassifying deposited in the archives of the

522
00:40:26.880 --> 00:40:31.519
<v Speaker 2>Senate where everybody can go can go read it that

523
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:37.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, that memo exists, and it gives a frosts

524
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:43.079
<v Speaker 2>interesting light about the history of the whole field because

525
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:49.280
<v Speaker 2>if something like the Robertson panel, Doctor Robertson UH and

526
00:40:49.360 --> 00:40:57.400
<v Speaker 2>its conclusions came from influence from the intelligence community trying

527
00:40:57.440 --> 00:41:01.000
<v Speaker 2>to block not trying to open up the the science,

528
00:41:01.400 --> 00:41:04.840
<v Speaker 2>but on the contrary, to channel it into areas that

529
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:10.960
<v Speaker 2>could be controlled and essentially hidden from the public while

530
00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:14.960
<v Speaker 2>giving the public a way to report, you know, lights

531
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:21.719
<v Speaker 2>in the sky. That's a historic passage, it's a historic

532
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:28.519
<v Speaker 2>turning point, and it's interesting in asking then why would

533
00:41:28.559 --> 00:41:33.199
<v Speaker 2>they do that. And again here I'm not jumping to

534
00:41:33.280 --> 00:41:36.679
<v Speaker 2>conclusion that they just want to hide it. And I

535
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:40.840
<v Speaker 2>think there is something else, and I think what we

536
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:45.840
<v Speaker 2>see now, you know, under the current administration keeps reinforcing

537
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:51.400
<v Speaker 2>that idea that there is something else that cannot be told,

538
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.760
<v Speaker 2>just cannot be told. And I think at some point,

539
00:41:56.679 --> 00:42:01.119
<v Speaker 2>you know, there were three times when the subject could

540
00:42:01.159 --> 00:42:05.599
<v Speaker 2>have been open. The first time was, you know, in

541
00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:10.760
<v Speaker 2>the early fifties. I was still in France in the

542
00:42:10.800 --> 00:42:15.199
<v Speaker 2>early fifties as a young astronomer. There were franch astronomers

543
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:18.840
<v Speaker 2>who had seen UFOs and I knew it because I

544
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:24.159
<v Speaker 2>was working at Paris Observatory. Was never published anywhere, but

545
00:42:24.239 --> 00:42:27.480
<v Speaker 2>I knew they existed. So I went to I had

546
00:42:27.519 --> 00:42:30.920
<v Speaker 2>a friend in the French Air Force and he had

547
00:42:30.960 --> 00:42:34.719
<v Speaker 2>access to the old fives of the French Airforce. Franch

548
00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:38.800
<v Speaker 2>Airforce didn't know what to do with it. So there

549
00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:42.480
<v Speaker 2>were about two hundred and fifty growing cases by pilots

550
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:45.400
<v Speaker 2>and so on in the late forties and early fifties

551
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:47.400
<v Speaker 2>in France. And I have never seen the light of

552
00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:51.840
<v Speaker 2>day still except in a few cases that I've cited

553
00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:55.679
<v Speaker 2>in my books. And this was before you know, the

554
00:42:56.360 --> 00:43:01.400
<v Speaker 2>CNES and all the Space Agency and so on. So

555
00:43:01.920 --> 00:43:06.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, I read all that, and I asked a

556
00:43:06.039 --> 00:43:09.280
<v Speaker 2>friend of mine name Michelle, who had done research in

557
00:43:09.320 --> 00:43:14.440
<v Speaker 2>France on those cases, you know, why why don't they

558
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:19.079
<v Speaker 2>go public about this? A Minute's really interesting? Scientifically it's interesting.

559
00:43:19.800 --> 00:43:23.519
<v Speaker 2>And he said, well, you know, I I have lunch

560
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:27.840
<v Speaker 2>with a French Air Force officer who is in charge

561
00:43:27.880 --> 00:43:34.519
<v Speaker 2>of the fives, Colonel clair One, and I'll ask him,

562
00:43:34.639 --> 00:43:38.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, why don't they make this public? So he

563
00:43:39.039 --> 00:43:42.679
<v Speaker 2>has lunch with the Carol and he asked him, and

564
00:43:42.960 --> 00:43:46.239
<v Speaker 2>the Carol says, it's a great question. You know, I'm

565
00:43:46.280 --> 00:43:49.400
<v Speaker 2>going to look into it. So we'll have lunch a

566
00:43:49.400 --> 00:43:52.400
<v Speaker 2>month from now. You know, in France you always have lunch,

567
00:43:52.760 --> 00:43:55.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, when you need to discuss something, usually in

568
00:43:55.480 --> 00:43:59.880
<v Speaker 2>a very nice little restaurant somewhere. And so they have

569
00:44:00.039 --> 00:44:03.239
<v Speaker 2>lunch again a month later, and Amy Michelle says, well,

570
00:44:03.639 --> 00:44:07.639
<v Speaker 2>what did they say? You know, what did your superior sey?

571
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:14.280
<v Speaker 2>He said, I I went to see the American embassy,

572
00:44:15.639 --> 00:44:20.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, and my counterpart from the American Air Force,

573
00:44:20.800 --> 00:44:23.880
<v Speaker 2>and I asked them, why don't you guys open up

574
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:27.679
<v Speaker 2>the fires and on UFOs and the guy said, look,

575
00:44:28.199 --> 00:44:31.199
<v Speaker 2>too many things happening in the world. Now, this was

576
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:35.280
<v Speaker 2>the fifties. I mean, this was you know, the problems

577
00:44:35.320 --> 00:44:40.639
<v Speaker 2>with the Soviet Union, the atomic threat, everything else. Uh,

578
00:44:41.159 --> 00:44:43.159
<v Speaker 2>you know, so many things happening in the world. We

579
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:47.039
<v Speaker 2>don't need one more subject that is going to worry

580
00:44:47.880 --> 00:44:52.840
<v Speaker 2>everybody where. We don't have the answer. So okay, So

581
00:44:53.199 --> 00:44:55.960
<v Speaker 2>that was there was no disclosure. There could have been

582
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:58.920
<v Speaker 2>a disclosure. If they had disclosed it at the time,

583
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.760
<v Speaker 2>they wouldn't have been a big uproar. You know, people

584
00:45:02.840 --> 00:45:06.000
<v Speaker 2>would have said that ciniasting science. I mean, it's great

585
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:09.360
<v Speaker 2>if the air life. There were books in those days

586
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:12.079
<v Speaker 2>about life in universe and so and that's not new.

587
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:15.280
<v Speaker 2>I mean this was you know, there were many books

588
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:19.079
<v Speaker 2>and reports going back to Flamario, you know, in the

589
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:21.760
<v Speaker 2>nineteenth century and all that. I mean in France it

590
00:45:21.960 --> 00:45:25.519
<v Speaker 2>was a common topic in science. You know, it wasn't

591
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:31.480
<v Speaker 2>a big thing. I wonder why it's a big thing

592
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:34.719
<v Speaker 2>today in the US. I mean, this has been, you know,

593
00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:40.400
<v Speaker 2>obviously one of the great subjects in science. So that

594
00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:46.280
<v Speaker 2>died and everything went underground. At the Robertson panel could

595
00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:48.840
<v Speaker 2>have opened it up. I mean they could have said, Look,

596
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:52.360
<v Speaker 2>they had a Nobel price. They had four of the

597
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:56.480
<v Speaker 2>leading physicists in the country who had worked on the

598
00:45:56.480 --> 00:46:00.119
<v Speaker 2>bomb with Oppenheimer, who had been there, you know, had

599
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:04.159
<v Speaker 2>been part of the American effort to win the World

600
00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:08.840
<v Speaker 2>War two. They had enormous prestige. They could have opened

601
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:12.559
<v Speaker 2>up the fires, but there had done an exceptional job

602
00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:17.800
<v Speaker 2>of documenting everything, all the statistics that could have been

603
00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:22.159
<v Speaker 2>published instead of being closed again and kept secret for

604
00:46:22.239 --> 00:46:27.559
<v Speaker 2>so long. Why they didn't do it, Well again, I

605
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:31.000
<v Speaker 2>think they will live to regret it not opening it,

606
00:46:31.079 --> 00:46:36.880
<v Speaker 2>because then people were talking about you know, going into space,

607
00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:41.159
<v Speaker 2>satellites and so on. It was you know, three years later,

608
00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:45.320
<v Speaker 2>nineteen fifty sevens. But Nick, you know, people were ready

609
00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:48.320
<v Speaker 2>for that. It was exciting. It was we were going

610
00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:52.599
<v Speaker 2>to go into the universe, eventually to the moon, eventually

611
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:58.239
<v Speaker 2>men would fly in space and so on. So but instead,

612
00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:01.519
<v Speaker 2>you know, they were afraid of the subject of what

613
00:47:02.039 --> 00:47:04.719
<v Speaker 2>public opinion would do with it, and they clamped it

614
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:17.039
<v Speaker 2>down against the advice of Battel itself. They won't consultant. Okay, then, uh,

615
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:20.599
<v Speaker 2>you know, at the time of the Content report, the

616
00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:25.079
<v Speaker 2>Content report could very much have said, look, there is

617
00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:29.519
<v Speaker 2>something there. In fact, Professor Condon, which I got to

618
00:47:29.639 --> 00:47:36.079
<v Speaker 2>know and respect on a personal basis. With doctor Heinek,

619
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:39.000
<v Speaker 2>we were the first ones to testify before the Content

620
00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:46.400
<v Speaker 2>Committee uh In in Bolder. Uh I did say that

621
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:50.800
<v Speaker 2>there was that there was a problem there, that not

622
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:57.159
<v Speaker 2>everything was explained, but that there were more important things

623
00:47:57.159 --> 00:48:00.000
<v Speaker 2>in science, and that this was, you know, the second

624
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:04.440
<v Speaker 2>there is subject that wasn't very important and that it

625
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:10.880
<v Speaker 2>could be dismissed by you know, in terms of American science.

626
00:48:12.480 --> 00:48:15.559
<v Speaker 2>But you know, if you read the whole thing, one

627
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:22.559
<v Speaker 2>third of the reports that they investigated is unidentified. One third. Okay,

628
00:48:23.199 --> 00:48:28.000
<v Speaker 2>nobody reads the video appendix. Okay, they read the conclusions

629
00:48:28.039 --> 00:48:30.239
<v Speaker 2>and then they read, well, the New York Times says

630
00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:33.119
<v Speaker 2>about it, and the New York Times said there's nothing

631
00:48:33.159 --> 00:48:37.360
<v Speaker 2>to UFOs, and that killed the subject for ten years.

632
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:40.199
<v Speaker 2>I mean it killed it. I mean at that point

633
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:43.920
<v Speaker 2>I gave up on American science, and I had offers

634
00:48:43.960 --> 00:48:47.039
<v Speaker 2>to go back to you to France, and I went back.

635
00:48:47.679 --> 00:48:50.840
<v Speaker 2>I you know, my wife and I took our kid

636
00:48:50.920 --> 00:49:01.000
<v Speaker 2>and we went back to France and then back because

637
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:06.920
<v Speaker 2>things changed. But essentially I was just completely disgusted with

638
00:49:06.719 --> 00:49:09.880
<v Speaker 2>the with the whole thing. It seemed completely closed as

639
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:14.239
<v Speaker 2>it seems now. I mean we're back to those days.

640
00:49:15.119 --> 00:49:18.400
<v Speaker 2>So there have been those three cases where it could

641
00:49:18.400 --> 00:49:23.079
<v Speaker 2>have been honestly opened with the truth, told people, namely

642
00:49:23.320 --> 00:49:28.039
<v Speaker 2>that we've got a phenomenon that's very, very big and

643
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:31.159
<v Speaker 2>that we don't understand the first thing about it. I mean,

644
00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:37.320
<v Speaker 2>that's the truth, okay. In one sentence, Doctor Heineck had

645
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:43.400
<v Speaker 2>remained friend, you know, close to of course, Project blue

646
00:49:43.400 --> 00:49:48.639
<v Speaker 2>Book and some of the some of the officers from

647
00:49:48.679 --> 00:49:51.519
<v Speaker 2>the Air Force who led Project Blue Book. The one

648
00:49:51.559 --> 00:50:01.559
<v Speaker 2>that he respected the most was a man named uh,

649
00:50:02.800 --> 00:50:07.480
<v Speaker 2>Major Friend, who was a black officer from the Air

650
00:50:07.519 --> 00:50:15.880
<v Speaker 2>Force who was, in doctor Heinez's estimation, the most uh,

651
00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:20.039
<v Speaker 2>the most dedicated men who led the Air Force study.

652
00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:27.039
<v Speaker 2>And he went back to a Major Friend and asked him, look,

653
00:50:27.199 --> 00:50:31.199
<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't have the clearances you have, but

654
00:50:31.320 --> 00:50:35.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, tell me what does this whole thing mean?

655
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:43.679
<v Speaker 2>And Major Friend smiled and he said it can only

656
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:49.480
<v Speaker 2>mean one of two things. Either they know what it is. Oh,

657
00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:53.400
<v Speaker 2>they don't know what it is. And that was just

658
00:50:53.519 --> 00:50:57.440
<v Speaker 2>so perfect, you know, and it's true today. I mean,

659
00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:01.199
<v Speaker 2>what's going on with them with Congress and with the

660
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:06.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, the hearings and all these pilots standing up

661
00:51:06.360 --> 00:51:10.400
<v Speaker 2>in front of the committee and so well, it means

662
00:51:10.840 --> 00:51:13.760
<v Speaker 2>either they know what it is so they won't tell it,

663
00:51:14.599 --> 00:51:16.800
<v Speaker 2>or they don't know what it is and they will

664
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:20.199
<v Speaker 2>pretend they know what it is. That's where we're still

665
00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:23.880
<v Speaker 2>at that stage. So come on, I mean, let's level

666
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.280
<v Speaker 2>with the people and tell them this is new. We

667
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:30.840
<v Speaker 2>don't have any idea what it really is in the

668
00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:35.760
<v Speaker 2>big system of things, and we need we need more

669
00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:40.960
<v Speaker 2>scientists involved all over the world, not just closed up

670
00:51:41.079 --> 00:51:45.360
<v Speaker 2>with secrets and pipes of secrets that are essentially when

671
00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:49.840
<v Speaker 2>you get to the bottom of that that columns of secrets,

672
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:53.559
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing there is. There is a big question mark.

673
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:56.480
<v Speaker 2>The big question mark is the most secret thing.

674
00:51:57.880 --> 00:52:01.440
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, unfortunately we all have like four minutes

675
00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:04.679
<v Speaker 1>or so. But something I've said a number of times

676
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:07.039
<v Speaker 1>in the show, and I just wondered if you agree

677
00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:10.840
<v Speaker 1>with my thoughts or not. I do believe, well, let's

678
00:52:10.840 --> 00:52:13.480
<v Speaker 1>talk about the United States government, and this is just

679
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:17.559
<v Speaker 1>my own theory. I do believe that they know more

680
00:52:17.639 --> 00:52:20.719
<v Speaker 1>than we do, or some part that knows more than

681
00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:23.800
<v Speaker 1>we do about what's going on. But my thoughts are

682
00:52:23.960 --> 00:52:26.360
<v Speaker 1>is that they do not have the full picture, And

683
00:52:26.440 --> 00:52:29.280
<v Speaker 1>because they do not have the full picture, how can

684
00:52:29.320 --> 00:52:31.840
<v Speaker 1>they possibly say that they can protect us from herder

685
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:35.360
<v Speaker 1>it's not dangerous. So I just wondered, do you think

686
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:38.480
<v Speaker 1>that might be a fair statement or how do you

687
00:52:38.519 --> 00:52:39.159
<v Speaker 1>feel about that?

688
00:52:42.280 --> 00:52:46.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't think it's one thing. The topic can be

689
00:52:47.800 --> 00:52:54.119
<v Speaker 2>looked at and can be classified in different different things.

690
00:52:55.199 --> 00:52:58.719
<v Speaker 2>I think what they are looking at is what the

691
00:52:58.880 --> 00:53:01.199
<v Speaker 2>military is looking at. I mean all the people who

692
00:53:01.239 --> 00:53:05.000
<v Speaker 2>are emerging before Congress and so on in you know,

693
00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:09.960
<v Speaker 2>people who are in uniform or were recently in uniform,

694
00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:15.760
<v Speaker 2>running different projects, some of them classified and some of

695
00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:19.760
<v Speaker 2>them still classified. But those projects had to do with

696
00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:25.440
<v Speaker 2>gathering information from air force facilities, from radar, from pictures,

697
00:53:26.199 --> 00:53:30.079
<v Speaker 2>not pictures, but images, infram read images and the like,

698
00:53:30.719 --> 00:53:37.079
<v Speaker 2>which is you know, it's natural to keep that somewhat

699
00:53:37.079 --> 00:53:42.239
<v Speaker 2>classified because the technologies themselves are classified. So that's in

700
00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:47.159
<v Speaker 2>the complex thing. There is What about all the cases

701
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:50.119
<v Speaker 2>of the farmer in the field who sees something land

702
00:53:50.559 --> 00:53:54.679
<v Speaker 2>and you know, he's going to call me because he's

703
00:53:54.719 --> 00:53:57.880
<v Speaker 2>heard of my books, And I go there and he

704
00:53:57.960 --> 00:54:00.760
<v Speaker 2>shows me the traces and he tells me the whole story.

705
00:54:00.840 --> 00:54:05.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, that's and I've gone, you know, all all

706
00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:08.239
<v Speaker 2>the way through Utah from north to south and east

707
00:54:08.239 --> 00:54:11.559
<v Speaker 2>and west, talking to ordinary people, not just on the

708
00:54:11.559 --> 00:54:14.920
<v Speaker 2>Biggler Ranch, you know, all over the northern half of

709
00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:20.800
<v Speaker 2>Utah with Professor Salisbury twice a whole week at the time,

710
00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:27.000
<v Speaker 2>talking to talking to witnesses and having lunch with them

711
00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:30.159
<v Speaker 2>and going over what they had seen. We only published

712
00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:35.480
<v Speaker 2>a small a small sample of all that. It's all there,

713
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:40.519
<v Speaker 2>and that's not secret. I mean, I can take you there.

714
00:54:42.280 --> 00:54:46.639
<v Speaker 2>And then there is there are the medical aspects that

715
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:50.599
<v Speaker 2>are not clear, that have not They have been researched,

716
00:54:51.000 --> 00:54:54.280
<v Speaker 2>but their research has not been published, and it should

717
00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:57.920
<v Speaker 2>be pursued. Of course it cannot the names of people

718
00:54:57.960 --> 00:55:02.840
<v Speaker 2>cannot be published because under hipas But I have been

719
00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:06.880
<v Speaker 2>part of enough medical research teams to tell you there

720
00:55:06.920 --> 00:55:11.199
<v Speaker 2>are ways of extracting that information and actually publishing it

721
00:55:11.719 --> 00:55:14.400
<v Speaker 2>for your colleagues and for other hospitals and so on.

722
00:55:14.880 --> 00:55:21.440
<v Speaker 2>That has not been done. Okay, So that's that should

723
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:24.840
<v Speaker 2>be open. And then then there are the the the

724
00:55:24.880 --> 00:55:30.119
<v Speaker 2>impact on consciousness on religion that doctor Crypel has preserved,

725
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:34.079
<v Speaker 2>you know at Rice University and all of that. I

726
00:55:34.119 --> 00:55:37.639
<v Speaker 2>mean that is that is open. People can can go there.

727
00:55:38.360 --> 00:55:43.440
<v Speaker 2>Uh my vives, I will be open in due time

728
00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:46.920
<v Speaker 2>because I think they would serve no purpose in the

729
00:55:47.000 --> 00:55:51.400
<v Speaker 2>current confusion right now. But eventually they you know, they

730
00:55:51.400 --> 00:55:53.760
<v Speaker 2>are in good shape and they can be open. So

731
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:57.320
<v Speaker 2>it's not a question that this is all secret. You know,

732
00:55:57.599 --> 00:56:01.039
<v Speaker 2>people know about this. People have seen those things all

733
00:56:01.079 --> 00:56:03.760
<v Speaker 2>over the all over the world. You know you can

734
00:56:04.159 --> 00:56:06.920
<v Speaker 2>you can go to Egypt and talk to people about it.

735
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:09.440
<v Speaker 2>You can go to Russia and talk to people about it.

736
00:56:09.559 --> 00:56:14.480
<v Speaker 2>They know that I went to Russia. I found a

737
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:17.599
<v Speaker 2>kid who had translated two of my books into Russian.

738
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:20.960
<v Speaker 2>You know, they were in Sami's that form, but people

739
00:56:21.000 --> 00:56:24.480
<v Speaker 2>were reading them. He never asked permission. I mean I

740
00:56:24.519 --> 00:56:29.119
<v Speaker 2>would have given him permission, but you know those things circulate.

741
00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:32.679
<v Speaker 2>People translated themselves and give it to their friends.

742
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:33.519
<v Speaker 1>That's great.

743
00:56:33.559 --> 00:56:35.000
<v Speaker 2>So it's wonderful.

744
00:56:35.679 --> 00:56:37.440
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And I hate to say this, we're out of

745
00:56:37.440 --> 00:56:39.559
<v Speaker 1>time because I feel like we just scratched the surface

746
00:56:40.079 --> 00:56:43.159
<v Speaker 1>and if it wasn't a hard out here we are, Yes,

747
00:56:43.280 --> 00:56:43.639
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't.

748
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.559
<v Speaker 2>And we'll see if I changed my if I changed

749
00:56:46.599 --> 00:56:47.280
<v Speaker 2>your mind.

750
00:56:47.679 --> 00:56:50.599
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know it was great. It was wonderful. Thank

751
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:54.000
<v Speaker 1>you so much, and please have those people watching live

752
00:56:54.079 --> 00:56:57.519
<v Speaker 1>jump over to the John Kayaku stream that's up next.

753
00:56:57.960 --> 00:57:00.960
<v Speaker 1>And thank you so much. Jacques. It's been a real pleasure,

754
00:57:01.719 --> 00:57:04.400
<v Speaker 1>always wonderful talking to you again. This could be four

755
00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:07.960
<v Speaker 1>hours and I don't think we just get started. Thanks again.

756
00:57:09.119 --> 00:57:11.880
<v Speaker 1>All right, everyone jump over to the next stream and

757
00:57:11.960 --> 00:57:13.800
<v Speaker 1>remember to keep your eyes to the sky. We'll be

758
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:14.800
<v Speaker 1>back next week as well.