Speaker 1: Thousands of people have mysteriously vanished in America's wilderness.
Speaker 2: Join us as we dive into the deep end of
the unexplainable word and try to piece together what happened.
Speaker 1: And you are listening to Locations Unknown, O, what's up everybody,
and welcome back to another episode of Locations Unknown. I'm
your co host, Joe. You rod on with me as
always is a guy who spills his milk just to
prove he won't cry over it.
Speaker 2: Mike Vannibogart Ah.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Joe, and thank you once again to all
of our amazing listeners for tuning in. Just a few
updates before we get go in first new Patreon shoutouts
to Justin Ware, Alex Sizon, and Elizabeth Persons. So thank
you for following the show. Thank you very much supporting
the show. We truly mean it, not just saying it.
Speaker 1: So one of us means it more than the other.
You have to figure out which one. Yeah, figure that out. No,
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Speaker 3: Everything you see in the video and hear in your
ears is because of supporters like you, So thank you
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you can call two eight three nine to one six'
nine one. Three we're past due for doing another voicemail.
Episode so, Yes joe is going to be off on
a little adventure in the next, week so you've got
a few more weeks to. Call But i'm feeling like
the next when he gets, back we're going to do.
One So i'm gonna be, like you're ready to, go
ready to rock and?
Speaker 2: Roll so going To miami ooh. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Fun it's supposed to be a little chilly, though so
we'll see hopefully that ends WHEN i get. There nothing
can be colder than. Here, yeah it's like right now
it's showing. It it's like Seventy. Yeah, wow that feels
so bad for the last TIME i was there at
this time BECAUSE i go to Love, burn which is
the Burning Man. Regional, yeah it was like eighty And
sonny the whole, time and that's really WHAT i want right.
Speaker 3: Now In, february, yeah so well that'll be fun For.
Joe i'm stuck here in The arctic. Wilderness i'll send you,
pictures okay of how awesome it. Is i'm gonna look
at them In.
Speaker 2: July.
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Speaker 2: Better, yeah so is this going to air This friday
or next? Week next? Week, okay all, right well we'll
cut that. Out yeah, no we. Won't that's. Right SO
i was.
Speaker 1: Gonna say something that might be, relevant but it'll be
too late by. Then oh, okay well actually, yeah if
they hear It, friday they wouldn't be listening to. IT
i was gonna, say if anyone's at Love, burn let
me know And i'll go do a meeting. Greet it's
like thousands of people go to. It, yeahs, maybe well
this will be airing after your.
Speaker 2: Back, No i'm coming.
Speaker 1: BACK i Leave tuesday next, WEEK i go through the
weekend and come back next to the. Monday oh, okay
but they would they would have to listen to it
while they're, there AND i guarantee.
Speaker 3: Them.
Speaker 1: Yeah so, anyway all, right, everybody let's get ye're up
and get out to explore locations. Unknown april, first nineteen eighty,
one a twenty eight year old elite solo climber leaves
a remote shelter deep In Alaska's Ruth, glacier pulling a
sled and heading alone Towards dnali's imposing east. Side experienced
deliberate and traveling, light he moved into a heavily crevassed
ice beneath one of the most unforgiving mountains On. Earth
when his expected return window, passes concerns begin to grow
and search efforts expand across, glaciers avalanche, paths and possible exit.
Routes join us this week as we investigate the disappearance
Of Johnny.
Speaker 2: Waterman so we.
Speaker 1: Are headed up To Alaska's Dannali National park and preserve
sub location The Alaska Range danali Or mount. McKinley ruth
glacier systems south side Of nale And Ruth, gorge specifically
The Sheldon, amphitheater which is The Ruth glacier northwest fork
Of Ruth Glacier East buttress Of. Danali that was his
intended route in The Thayer, basin The Upper East buttress.
Speaker 2: Region everyone get.
Speaker 3: That.
Speaker 2: Yep if you're From, alaska you might remember all that
or have been.
Speaker 3: There, yeah and later on when you're showing, STUFF i
put some pictures BECAUSE i actually have your photos In,
DENALI i wasn't. On we were pretty far from actual the.
Mountain you could barely see it because of the. Clouds but,
YEAH i was only there for a. Day yeah so that's,
okay Soy i'll go back.
Speaker 2: It, yeah it's.
Speaker 3: Hard it's hard to get to the actual. Mountain we
should do a listener trip. There that'd be. Fun, yeah
one of these days we when we have. Time our
list of things we're going to do when we have
time is like two hundred things long. Now but if
we're doing this full, time we would crank through it.
Immediately oh, yeah so you, know get more. Patrons everyone,
Listening go tell? Everybody, yes when was it? Established it was?
Speaker 1: Established And february twenty, sixth nineteen seventeen Is mount McKinley
National park expanded and renamed D Nali National park And
preserve by the A nilca On december, second nineteen eighty
and officially renamed To Dnali National park And preserve in twenty.
Fifteen sees roughly four hundred and ninety eight thousand visitors per,
year so almost half a. Million some interesting. Facts dnali is.
Speaker 2: Huge it's.
Speaker 1: Huge it's bigger than MANY us. States Denali National park
And preserve covers six million acres of, wilderness more area
than the state Of New. JERSEY i do like through
the years about How New jersey is always the reference
for measurement of national, park always the punching. Bag it's,
Tiny it's always like almost as big As New. Jersey,
yeah it's bigger Than New. Jersey it contains The Talls
mountain In North. America The Nali summit rises to twenty
three hundred and ten feet above sea, level making it
the highest peak on the. Continent it hosts a remarkable
diversity of. Wildlife The nale's home to thirty nine mammal,
species one hundred and sixty nine bird, species and even
a native amphibian made richer by wide open glacial valleys and.
Tundra it has only working sled dog kennels in The National,
park the only working dog sled, kennels so the sled
program has operated for nearly a, century and these dogs
historically helped rangers patrol wintertime. Wilderness you can See Alaska's
Big five wildlife while exploring the, park especially along the
D Nali Park. Road in, summer visitors can spot grizzly, bears, moose, caribou,
wolves and. Dalshee the climate conditions are extreme if you can.
Imagine denali lies far enough north that it experiences Long
arctic winters and short, summers and its high elevations are
permanently snow, covered conditions that have produced some of the
coldest recorded temperatures in THE. Us permafrost weaves through much
of the, park So denali's ground is underlain by, permafrost
a permanently frozen layer of soil and. Ice climate change
is melting parts of, it reshaping, landscapes and causing landslides
like The Pretty Rock's landslide along The Denali Park, road
a living reminder of geological change in. Action some more
in depth features of the. Climate in Late march and Early,
April denali exists in a Seasonal No Man's. Land winter
has not released its, grip but spring storms begin to
destabilize snowpack across the.
Speaker 2: Range is that called a? STRADDLE a? Straddle?
Speaker 1: No? No, remember, YES i, KNOW i was gonna let.
IT i was gonna let it. Slide we're gonna get stratle. Months,
yeah thet month shoulder, seasons so.
Speaker 2: Daylight back to.
Speaker 1: This, now daylight is increasingly increasing, Rapidly yet temperatures remain brutally,
cold and the mountain's weather systems are vatal and. Unforgiving
this is one of the most dangerous transitional periods on
The Alaska range. Calendar at elevations along the Roof glacier
and its northwest, fork Where Johnny waterman was last, seen
temperatures commonly range from negative twenty degrees fahrenheit to zero
even during daylight. Hours that's like the last two weeks.
HERE i, know it doesn't seem that bad for. Us
we're in. Buildings, yeah wind chill regularly drives perceived temperatures
far lower sustain wind funnel swims funnel through the glacial
systems and accelerate around buttresses and, ridgelines producing sudden white
out conditions with little. Warning storms in this period often
arrive fast and, violently bringing high winds and heavy snowfall
that can erase tracks within. Hours On, denali a single
storm can completely reset at the, mountain filling, crevasses loading avalanche,
paths and obscuring any visual trace of. MOVEMENT a documented
storm struck The Ruth glacier region On april, second nineteen eighty,
one one day After watermen's, departure significantly altering surface conditions and.
Visibility avalanche hazards is particularly acute in Early. April snow
deposited by late winter storms sits atop, older weaker, layers
and rising solar input begins to stress these. Bonds even
small slab avalanches in this terrain can have catastrophic, consequences
especially on glacier forks that funnel debris into crevassed runout.
Zones multiple climbers in the area reported active avalanche conditions
during the same Window watermen was. Traveling crevasses themselves pose
a unique spring. Hazard snow bridges that appear solid and
cold midwinter conditions begin to weaken as temperatures, fluctuate wind
loaded snow can mask voids dozens or even hundreds of
feet deep on heavily broken glaciers like the northwest fork
of The, routh safe travel typically requires rope systems a
Margin Johnny waterman did not. Have Finally april weather Nd
nali's notoriously deceptive clear mornings often deteriorate rapidly into afternoon,
storms with winds increasing and clouds forming below, climbers cutting
off escape. Routes aircraft access becomes, unreliable and, rescue even
if initiated, immediately can be delayed for. Days in nineteen eighty,
one search flights were repeatedly grounded or limited by cloud
covered turbulence, invisibility even during otherwise flable. Windows in, short
the climate And Ruth glacier area during Early april is
not just, cold it is actively hostile to solo. Travel
the combination of deep, cold unstable snowpack and complete crevasse,
fields and rapidly changing storms creates an environment where a
single misstep or delay can become, fatal and where evidence
of that moment can disappear almost.
Speaker 2: Instantly sounds pretty pretty violent and.
Speaker 1: Wild, yeah it sounds like somewhere you probably shouldn't. Be.
Yeah more about the. Terrain the train Where Johnny waterman
disappeared is not a single route or a, feature but
a layered gauntlet of hazards that begin long before climber
ever Reaches denali's main. Mass from The Sheldon, amphitheater the
northwest fork of The Ruth glacier acts as a, narrow
winding corridor of, ice riddled with deep crevasses and constantly
reshaped by, snow wind and ice. Fall travel here is, slow,
technical and, unforgiving even before elevation becomes a. Factor the
Northwest fork is especially dangerous because it is heavily broken
but deceptively smooth. Looking wind scours the surface, flat making
crevasses with thin snow bridges that can collapse without. Warning
these openings are not shallow, cracks many descend tens to
hundreds of, feet and once inside self rescues effectively impossible
for a solo. Climber this section of glacier is normally traveled,
roped even by experienced, teams because visual queues alone cannot
reliably identify safe. Passage as the glacier rises towards the east,
buttress the terrain steepens and funnels climbers toward terrain, traps
areas where a, slip, collapse or avalanche carries consequences far
beyond the initial. Event slopes here angle upward into hanging
basins and seric, zones while the glacier below breaks apart
into labyrinths of slots and ice. Towers any fall in
this zone is unlikely to stop on the. Surface gravity
does not just pull. Downward it pulls climbers into the
mountain the, east butchers. Itself is not a clean ridge
rising from the, glacier but a complex interface of snow,
snopes snow, slopes rock, bands and ice. Runnels approaches require
traversing beneath loaded faces and crossing avalanche paths that naturally
drain into the glacier. Below even small releases in these
zones can knock a climber off balance and sweep them
into crevassed, runouts where evidence disappears quickly and. PERMANENTLY i
heard a story once in these very same ice. Fields,
yea if you fall, down there's so riddable with, crevasses
you could hear someone yelling and probably not find. Them oh, Really,
Yeah like if you're this couple hundred feet, away, like
because there's so many holes and they go so. Deep,
yeah how like you could probably hear, them like you
basically hear them yelling and never be able to find them.
Speaker 2: Again.
Speaker 3: Yeah from What i've heard from when we were there In,
alaska Summating denali is one of the hardest summits on the,
planet not necessarily because of the climbing, involved but just getting. There,
yeah because it's not like a normal park where there's
lots of trails to get, In, like it's all. Backcountry
it's an adventure just to the. Base just getting in
there is like you're, reading this is how you just
get to the. Mountain it's very it's.
Speaker 1: Insane, Yeah So i'll go to some of the Hazard
johnny would have faced on this hike In. Denali the
most immediate Hazard Johnny waterman face was traveling completely alone
in one of the most complex glacier systems in The Alaska.
Range On denali's solo travel doesn't just remove, companionship it removes.
Redundancy there's no backup if equipment, fails no second set
of eyes to read snore or, ice and no margin
for even a minor. Injury any incident that would be
so revivable for rope team becomes potentially fatal when faced.
Alone so crevasses where the single greatest objective. Danger the
northwest fork of The Ruth glacier is densely, fractured which
with snow bridges that can appear solid wall concealing voids
hundreds of feet. Deep so you could be walking across
something that looks solid and it's only like a foot
of light snow and.
Speaker 3: It just break right through and then you're gone into avoid, yeah,
essentially and it can be like it's like falling off of.
Speaker 2: A, building, yeah one hundred. Feet, yeah it's.
Speaker 1: Crazy there's stories of people that will slide down because it's.
Ice they get, Wedged, yeah and then they're stuck for so.
Long if you unwedge, them they'll have blood. Clots there's
just no good. Scenario. Yeah in Early, april the fluctuating
temperatures and windload weaken those, bridges as we said, before
And waterman was observed traveling completely, unroped meaning a crevasse
fall would have resulted in immediate entrapment with no possibility
of self. Rescue so he had no, ropes was walking
across this stuff if he falls In, yeah, no oh knows.
EXACTLY i would say impossible to. Find, yes in this,
environment avalanches don't need to be large to be. Lethal
we talked about. That several climbers in the air reported
and active avalanche conditions during the same. Period exposure was
another constant threat outside of everything we've been talking. About
he was not carrying any tent or sleeping, bag relying
in set on movement and snow caves for. Survival the
strategy demand's constant physical, output which it can. Work, yeah
if you dig down in the, snow you can make
a really nice. Area don't need that, stuff but you
know you can't be. Injured you have to be physically
capable of digging it, out which is a lot of.
Work if anyone's ever dug like, skiers if they get
stuck in the snow like you can see them and
like getting all the snow, off it's a ton of.
Speaker 2: Work, Yeah so any.
Speaker 1: Delay weather injury navigation air increases the risk of hypothermia
Exponentially in april, conditions un denali immobilization for even a
short period can be, fatal especially at night when temperatures.
Plummet and wind strips heat away. Rapidly navigation itself was.
Hazardous White outs are common on The Ruth, glacier where
featureless snow surfaces blend seamlessly into the. Clouds in these,
conditions even experienced climbers can lose, orientation drift into unsafe,
terrain and unknowingly cross weakened snow. Bridges Sol climbers cannot
safely probe crevasses while maintaining, balance especially when pulling a,
sled which can destabilize footing and increase the fall. Risk,
finally rescue limitations magnified every other. Hazard aircraft axis in
this terrain is weather dependent and often delayed for. Days
ground rescue is slow and extremely dangerous due to crevasses
and avalanche. Exposure in practical, Terms watermen was operating in
an environment where help was unlikely to arrive in, time
even if an emergency had been immediately. Detected taking, together
these hazards did not operate. Independently they compounded each. OTHER
a slip became a, fall a fall became a, trapment
a delay became. Exposure An in terrain designed by ice and,
gravity the mountain did not need a care hatistrophic, mistake
only a single moment where everything aligned against. Him so
so don't go. There, yeah, ever especially in the straddle. Seasons,
yeah it's, yeah it takes very experienced climbers in a
team to really do.
Speaker 2: This if he was, experienced he was very he's, very very.
Speaker 3: Fit, yeah he will get in the timeline of what he,
did which is, impressive even before he got To.
Speaker 2: Tanali all, right well tell me about, him.
Speaker 3: Miney. Yeah so his name Is Johnny. Waterman he was
Born september ninth of nineteen fifty. Two his last confirmed
sighting Was april first of nineteen eighty. One he was a,
male age twenty. Eight he was about five foot eight
of five foot, ten one hundred and forty to one
hundred and sixty. Pounds he had brown, hair brown. Eyes
he had a, beard and he wore a he had a.
Beard he was, lean he was endurance. Trained he's done
very long distance solo alpine trips. Before so it's like
it's safe to say when they say he didn't have
a sleeping, bag he had.
Speaker 1: Intent he knew what he was. Doing, yeah that was on.
Purpose it wasn't like an. Oversight, No and he had
he had a very warm gear.
Speaker 3: On so he had a blue, jacket blue pants of vapor, barrier,
boots snow, shoes snowmobile.
Speaker 2: Suit he had a bivvy, sack but no.
Speaker 3: Tents And joe's gonna pull up just some PICTURES i,
found got some of the there's a picture Of. Johnny,
there there's a picture of. Him he was well known
in The alaska climbing, community like he was known as
one of the best climbers at the. Time, okay kind
of renowned in this part of the. Country so yet
he had a bvvysack with no. Tent he had a
red plastic sled that he'd used to pull his. Gear
he had route marking. Ones he had around fourteen days
of food with, him which included things like powdered, Milk
cawnie sugar. Flour Like joe, said he was not carrying
a sleeping, bag tent or. Radio they didn't have personal
locator beacons at that, TIME i don't. Believe so he
was pretty much out on his own and you're not
going to see a lot of. People and you can
see some of these routes like up To nali there's
one of the routes.
Speaker 2: UP i don't even understand. That.
Speaker 1: YEAH i like how they're, like, yeah obviously it's this.
Speaker 2: Line. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah and some of the other pictures show a more
expanded view OF i DON'T i have kind of in
the picture title what we're looking. At there's back That's Mount,
hunter that's referenced in here.
Speaker 2: SOMEWHERE i, mean all looks really. Cool that's The.
Speaker 1: Eastbusters, yeah, OKAY i mean it's a very technical.
Speaker 2: Climate it's something you don't just do on a. Whim,
yeah no.
Speaker 3: Amateurs, Personalitywise johnny, was LIKE i, said widely regarded as intensely,
driven highly, independent and deeply committed to solo. Climbing he
favored minimalist approaches and accepted extreme risk as part of his.
Philosophy he was known to be thoughtful and, articulate but
also increasingly withdrawn over. Time he resisted reliance on technology or,
assistance and often rejected conventional safety. Margins but with all that,
said he didn't exhibit impulsive behavior and. Planning his actions
reflected long term intent and goal directed movement rather than.
Randomness before he went on this, adventure he had it
all planned out exactly how he was going to do,
It so it's not like he was going to show
up and figure it. Out he knew exactly what he
was going to. Do medical. Issues waterman had a long
history of documented mental health struggles earlier in his, life
including periods of institutionalization following some family, trauma but there
was no evidence that indicates any acute medical impairments at
the time of his, disappearance and there was no record
of physical illness or injury prior To april first of
nineteen eighty. One as far as occupation and, hobby this
was pretty much as. Hobby he was an, alpinist Dur it's.
Climber he was a writer and thinker in climbing. Circles
he was a dedicated wilderness. Traveler he wasn't a professional,
guide but his primary identity was as an independent solo
climber pursuing extreme personal. Objectives he kind of reminds me
a little bit of that guy who free. Soloed you
know What i'm talking, About Alex.
Speaker 1: Donald, yeah he just climbed that top by Top bye
building on live streamed.
Speaker 3: IT i feel, like obviously they're doing different, things BUT
i feel like guy Like johnny and a guy Like
alex are kind of cut from the same. CLOTH i
watched that documentary on. Him, yeah it's. Wild it's.
Speaker 2: WILD i.
Speaker 1: LIKED i liked when they did THE mri on them
to like, say, like what's wrong with? You, Yeah and
they just found out like the centers of his brain
that normal people light.
Speaker 3: Up for fear he just don't doesn't exist for. Him,
yeah he just like It's i'm just and HE i
think he has like the strongest fingers on the. PLANET
i can't imagine some of those drone shots where he's
like off way up and you just you just hanging
on by like eight. Fingers, yeah and like his feet
and it's like it looks like a flat.
Speaker 2: Wall. YEAH i don't. UNDERSTAND i don't understand how he did.
IT i don't.
Speaker 3: Know so if any of you listening haven't seen the
documentary on his, climb it's Called Free, Solo Free. Solo,
YEAH i strongly recommend watching. It it's absolutely amazing that
a human being could do. That. Yeah all, right back
To johnny experience in the. Wilderness so he had extensive wilderness.
Experience he had years of experience traveling alone in, remote
high risk wilderness. Environments he was capable of long unsupported,
approaches snow cave, survival and prolonged. Isolation some of his
notable achievements include a month's long solo traverse On Mount,
hunter which we had a picture up Of Mount hunter.
Earlier he's made multiple winter attempts in The Alaska, range
and he's done repeated solo expeditions emphasizing endurance and self.
Reliance prior experience in this. Location he also had significant
experience here In. Denali he was familiar with glacial, travel
LIKE i, said, snowcaves and cold weather. Survival he also
had knowledge Of Ruth glacier region and standard approach. Corridors,
however The Northwest fork area Of Ruth glacier And East
Buttress approach represented some of the most complex enhancers train
in the, park especially for someone who's doing it solo and.
Unroped so even though he has all this, experience this
he's still undertaking probably one of the hardest things a
solo climber could.
Speaker 1: Do so my cursor is on The Ruth glacier And
i'm trying to zoom out until you can really SEE i,
mean you can see, towns.
Speaker 2: But they're so far.
Speaker 3: Away, yeah, yeah and it's deceiving how far away anchorages From.
Denali it's at least a five hour drive IF i recall,
correctly like basically just going straight.
Speaker 2: NORTH i this is this.
Speaker 1: Chunk, yeah that's is Like Deni National park and you
can see it from hours. Away you can See danali
kind of just just rising rising from the ground and the.
Horizon it's a crazy sight to. See that's crazy and
IT'S i mean it's so, massive and.
Speaker 3: Yeah this is The Ruth glacier right. Here, yeah it
was so cool just being. There just you're when you're.
There there were other tourists and, stuff but it's. Remote you're,
like you're out, there so, Oh joe's pulling up a
few of fere of. Pictures, yeah we didn't have anything.
Though the funny thing was it was sunny when we started.
HIKING i was with our Friend, flavio and it was
sunny when it, started and then it started pouring later
in the day and we ended up getting just. Soaked
it was warm enough where you could wear shorts UNTIL
i wasn't wearing. Shorts it wasn't that, one but.
Speaker 1: Because you know the, Rules, yeah one of the pictures
you can kind of faintly make Off denali in the,
distance open up one of the darker like that one
so way off in the, distance like over.
Speaker 3: There, yeah that would be the start Of. Dunali, jeez
we never got a good picture of it just because
of the. Clouds even where we. Were it, WAS i
mean it Was i'd love to go.
Speaker 2: Back look at. That that's pretty nice little. Rainbow, yeah
double rainbow all the way across.
Speaker 3: This so, yeah towards that, afternoon a storm started rolling
in and we just got absolutely. Soaked we saw some. Moose,
yeah let's go. There, YEAH i mean that's just so.
Three you just look at any direction you see mountain.
Ranges it's just NonStop. MOUNTAINS i love. It, YEAH i
only got to experience it for a, day but it's
a hard place to get. To and then he got,
married and yeah the rest is. History, yeah all, right
so we will move into the. Timeline so the prior
this is WHAT i call before nineteen eighty. One So
johnny had spent several years preparing for the winter solo
ascent Of. Denali he had made multiple unsuccessful winter attempts
in The Alaska, range steadily increasing his commitment to solo.
Climbing his reputation was shaped by extreme endurance, efforts, including
LIKE i said, earlier at prolonged solo traverse On Mount,
hunter which he did with minimal. Gear, however his life
also was marked by tragedy and loss of. Life his
Brother bill disappeared during a sea kayaking trip in nineteen seventy,
three and Afterward waterman struggled with isolation and some mental health.
Issues LIKE i said, earlier he did spend some time
institutionalized before returning to, climbing and by the late nineteen,
Seventies denali had become his kind of central objective in
what was driving his motivation in? Life he was going
to summit that. Mountain it's now winter nineteen seventy five
or nineteen seventy nine to nineteen. Eighty On december nineteenth
of nineteen seventy, Nine waterman flew to The kahiltina base
camp area intending to do a minimum provisions winter solo On.
Tenali he remained on the mountain for roughly two weeks
before banning his attempt due to weather and logistical.
Speaker 2: Issues this could be that.
Speaker 1: Area so there's K hiltona Is, Peaks East, okay and
this shot looks like a more established. Area, yeah they
built some wind. Walls, yeah just right out of the. Snow,
yeah so gnarly it looks beautiful and. Cold, yeah BUT
i mean you're just on a like this is what's
what's terrifying about, This like this is on a, glacier, Right,
yeah so they have this little area down you could
like walk off one hundred feet that way and go.
Speaker 2: Down, yeah like just. Done don't go out to go
pee at, night, no like rope up or.
Speaker 3: Yeah just stay in the designated zone that you know
doesn't have a one hundred foot drop under your.
Speaker 1: Feet, well and even, then And i'm paranoid AND i
overthink this. Stuff Oh i'm thinking of they could be
on top of a big snowbridge somewhere that's just fine
all day and then, yeah now all of a sudden
you walk on it and you weigh an extra ten
pounds in the last.
Speaker 3: Person or an avalanche happens at one of these, peaks,
YEAH i mean just washes you. Out you see stuff
like that happen On everest at the base.
Speaker 2: Camp. Yeah base camp got hit that one year and
killed a bunch of.
Speaker 3: People, Yeah so the risk is even there when you're
not even going up, yet and you're just at base. Camp,
yeah AND i mean you're deep in at that.
Speaker 2: Point i'm gonna just pick some random spots so you
can keep.
Speaker 3: Going so this shows that he wasn't completely reckless because
he was calling off attempts due to weather and logistics.
Issues after, this he did actually then briefly commit himself
to a psychiatric care, again but then he soon let
himself back out and refocused On. Denali so this does
highlight his cyclical struggles that he was having at the
time with mental health.
Speaker 2: Issues the oh that's how they get. In they land
a plane right on. It, yeah with skis on. It,
yeah that's so.
Speaker 3: Cool it's Now february nineteen eighty. One we don't have
an exact, date But waterman attempted a long overland approach
towards The Alaska. Range this is. Crazy he walked unsupported
rather than flying. In he turned back after a stow
failure made continued travel. Unsafe he soon regrouped and prepared
for another. Launch this was part of his audacious nineteen
eighty one plan to Approach denali entirely on foot from near,
Anchorage so he started an anchorage.
Speaker 1: Geez and walked on foot all the way To. Denali
so that's just unnecessary but kind of. Cool it's it's
the manliest Thing i've ever heard.
Speaker 3: Of, yeah it's can you zoom out and just look
at the? Terrain where's anchorage? South so so there it. Is,
yeah so he, Started.
Speaker 1: Oh let's do all as the crow FLOWER a random
as girl flies one hundred and thirty. Miles, yeah before Doing.
Tanali after you described the, TERRAIN i was gonna, Say
i'm looking at all these people here that flew, in
And i'm just, like, man that looks awful and they flew.
Speaker 3: There, yeah and he's, like, Nop i'm walking. In SO
i mean in the, eighties, yeah nineteen eighty.
Speaker 2: Equipment wasn't as. Good so this Is Denali Base. Camp. Okay,
yeah it's like a little. Airport you can see together
there's a. Plane.
Speaker 1: Yeah so this is where he was headed. First this, area,
okay is that The Ruth? Glacier, yeah this is part of. It,
OKAY i mean it goes down through. Here, yeah it's
like this is The Ruth. Glacier so.
Speaker 3: Okay so it's early to Mid march of nineteen eighty.
One so in Early, March waterman snowshoed into The Sheldon
amphitheater on The Ruth glacier and established himself near the Mountain.
Speaker 2: HOUSE i don't know if you can try and find
this the mountain.
Speaker 3: House not not the, food Though i've eaten my fair
share mountain.
Speaker 2: House over the. Years what was it called, Again it's
The Sheldon. Amphitheater, okay you just keep going all look.
Forks it might take.
Speaker 3: Me LIKE i, Said he established himself near the Mountain,
house and the approach itself was long and. Demanding he
remained in the area for several, weeks preparing equipment and
interacting with other climbing. Parties during this, period he arranged
aircraft deliveries to the Mountain. House the boxes delivered contain
climbing gear and personal, items but not. Food he also
returned a borrowed, radio stating he would not need. It
according to his climbing Friend Kate, bull he appeared physically
worn and increasingly indifferent to safety.
Speaker 1: Margins so do you think The Sheldon chalet is the same?
Thing it's on the other. SIDE i don't really. Know
i'll set near The Sheldon. Amphitheater, well THAT'S i typed
In Sheldon amphitheater and Again Sheldon.
Speaker 3: Chalet maybe The Mountain house isn't there. Anymore maybe that
is The Mountain. House i'll look at this. Time he's
been out there for a. While he's starting the kind
of wear down, physically, mentally he's kind of becoming. Indifferent
one of The Cliff, hudson was one of the pilots
for the, deliveries also noticed and he was a friend Of.
Waterman he noticed his detached demeanor at this.
Speaker 2: Time that is.
Speaker 3: It, okay so that's The Mountain. House, yeah so, yeah
that's the house that he was staying. At and actually
he it's Now march thirteenth of nineteen eighty, one and
inside The Mountain, House waterman wrote on a box My Last,
kiss one forty TWO pm, three thirteen eighty. One the
note was left with the gear he did not take with.
Him so this has led to a lot of speculation
of what the meaning of that. Was so no one
really knows even to this. Day but he left that
and that was kind of an impending like A i know.
Speaker 2: Oranger, YEAH i know you're trying to, say AND i
can't think of it.
Speaker 3: Either, yeah it's Late march, eight nineteen eighty. One now
so throughout Late, March waterman discussed his plans open openly
with other. Climbers On Ruth, glacier he just a route
up the northwest fork Of Ruth, glacier Entering danali via
the East. Buttress he stated he would descend The Harper,
glacier continue Onto Muldreau, glacier and walk out To Wonder.
Lake he also discussed alternate, exits Including Buckskin, glacier indicating
flexibility in his descent. Plan he did end up leaving
excess equipment at the mountain, house suggesting a deliberate decision
to travel light once he.
Speaker 2: Departed in a guy like this who's very.
Speaker 3: Physically fit and, experienced he knows that extra gear is
just going to slow him, Down and it's probably a
decent decision because you obviously you'd want to spend as
little time out there as, Possible so if you have
a bunch of gear slowing you, down that increases risks
of an. Accident but at the same, time if something
happens now you don't have a, tent you don't have
a sleeping, bag you don't have things that could keep you.
Alive though in this terrain and, CLIMATE i don't know
if that would even.
Speaker 2: Matter.
Speaker 3: Honestly it's Now april first of night teen eighty. One
johnny departed the Mountain house and moved up the northwest
fork of The Ruth glacier and pulling a red. Sled that,
day Climber Jerry kerr encountered watermen on the. Glacier during their,
conversation waterman stated he carried approximately fourteen days of. Food
he had no ten or sleeping. Bag his shelter consisted
of a bivy sack and a snowmobile. Suit he carried
a vapor berry, boots, snowshoes route marking, ones and obviously a.
Sled he intended to enter the East buttress near eleven
nine hundred feet and continue. Upwards kerr observed waterman traveling
unroped through heavily crevassed, terrain moving directly towards The East
buttress approach Between peak eleven, thousand three hundred And mount Dan.
Beard so this encounter On april first would be the
last confirmed sighting Of. Johnny it's Now april, second of
nineteen eighty, one so On april, second high winds and
snowfall swept through The Ruth glacier, area erasing any tracks
and significantly altering surface. Conditions and this storm would directly
impact the later search basically because it erased any evidence
of Where johnny might have. Gone so this isn't like
the exact, route but here's the, Chalet, Yeah East Buttress,
peak so like It's i'm assuming it goes like, this,
yeah at least and then either that way or that
way and then zig zagging up straight. Walls, yeah, crazy
just absolutely. WILD i, mean this is this mountain's unlike
anything else In North. America when you look at, it it's, massive,
unforgiving it's just. Insane, yeah it's. Wild and you look
at the train around, it like to the, north In
south it's flat, Flat, yeah and that's why when you're
driving up to it it stands out so.
Speaker 1: Much let's see IF i can get a good picture
from like over here the McKinley.
Speaker 3: River, yeah, oh all, Trees i'll find.
Speaker 2: One, yeah keep. Going it's.
Speaker 3: Now april fourth of nineteen eighty, one A National Park
service ski patrol traveled up the West fork Of Ruth,
glacier but due to the storm On april, second no identical.
Tent defiable tracks were attributed to watermen were visible on
the Northwest. Fork the patrol included Rangers Dave buchanan And
Roger robinson And Scott. Gill it's Now april, seventh nineteen eighty.
ONE a guided party led By Mike covington traveled up
the Northwest. Fork they observed a single set of tracks
consistent with a loan climber pulling a, sled moving upward
toward The East buttress with no return. Tracks, however avalanche
conditions on that day forced the party to turn back
in that turn back before reaching higher. Elevations it's Now
april twelfth of nineteen eighty. One aerial reconnaissance flights were
conducted over To nali's, southeast east and north. Sides messages
were dropped to climbers On Muldro. Glacier no sightings were. Reported,
unfortunately radio contact with climbers on The South buttress produced no.
Speaker 2: Information as.
Speaker 3: Well Climbers Rick derek And pat McManus reported seeing snowshoe
tracks weaving through crevasses without rope. Protection another local, Climber Jim,
hale also assisted as an aerial, observer so at this
time Also waterman's, parents who at that time lived In,
vermont were notified that he was. Overdue Between april fourteenth
And april nineteenth eighty one and nineteen eighty, one there
was a lot of aerial searching going, on so you
had A Us Army chinook helicopter coordinating with park rangers
to observe for signs of. Watermen On april, fourteenth you
had overdue discussions with, people cabin, inquiries air services were coming.
In there were unconfirmed, sightings so a lot of leads
were Coming In april, fifteenth the schnook did a two
hour flight over The East, Buttress Southeast, Spur South, Buttress
Harper muldrow and didn't see. Anything april, eighteenth the pilots
confirmed That waterman stored gear at The Mountain house remained.
Untouched april, nineteenth with watermen overdue beyond his stated food,
supply the case now was formally. Escalated this date also
later appeared in administrative. Records again no sighting of them
at that. Time all in, all they had schnooks from
the two hundred and forty Second Aviation company working on
the fifteenth, Nineteenth they had flights With Ranger robinson And Ranger.
Buchanan so some of the flights that, covered LIKE i,
Said East, Buttress Harper, Glacier Carston's ridge and adjacent glacier
systems and all that, searching nothing was. Located, sadly On
april twentieth of nineteen eighty, one search efforts started extending
beyond the, mountain so patrol cabins along the park road were,
checked dog sled. Operators we're getting contacted and. Queried no
one reported seeing waterman exit the north side of the.
Park hudson did another one point one and a half
hour solo flight over The East buttress. Area no, sign but,
yeah but they had a lot of people out there
looking for him at this point and nothing was.
Speaker 1: Found, well So i'm looking at this is from The
West buttress. Summit, okay thirty five point three, miles sixteen
thousand feet of elevation. Gain so they're expecting twenty four plus,
hours so it's several. Days yeah, minimum that's probably perfect. Conditions,
yeah that's like when things going, well AS i, say
like turn the brightness. Down it it's just all. Snow
it's just.
Speaker 2: Snow, yeah nothing going to do about.
Speaker 3: That, yeah for those just Listening joe has all trails
up and we're following the path that one would.
Speaker 2: Take this is from the West buttress base.
Speaker 1: Camp, okay but so WHEN i did Killiman, jarro that
was roughly forty.
Speaker 2: Miles, yeah out and.
Speaker 1: Back but it, was Like i'll look it, up it
was a lot of elevation. Gain it wasn't sixteen thousand feet, NO.
Speaker 3: I THINK i remember you saying. That it was a
lot of elegate elevation, game but it was spread out
over a longer.
Speaker 2: Distance.
Speaker 1: Yeah the last, push like the last, Day, yeah was
a lot like we went through the night and had
to just do zigzag up the mountain. Side but, yeah,
yeah it was over a three, days four days we
did it. In from What i've read, About, Yeah, kilmancharo
is it long?
Speaker 2: Term gets?
Speaker 3: You it's the just, constant nagging elevation gain of three
days straight and.
Speaker 2: You're supposed to do it in like eight to ten.
Speaker 1: Days, Yeah and because we have kids and, jobs we
like shortened. It we're, like we'll do it in like
FIVE i think it was five days we did it
in and that was too fatic. Wild, yeah that's where
it's just getting gnarly and they're not even at the
other base. Camp yet it's only twelve miles eight thousand
feet of elevation game twelve.
Speaker 2: Miles that's, crazy that's so.
Speaker 3: Gnarly, YEAH i MEAN i would love to Say i'd
love to do, this BUT i would never be able
to do.
Speaker 2: THIS i Think i'm gonna do.
Speaker 1: It you're gonna do. IT i want, To, YEAH i,
Mean i'll be flying into base. Camp i'm going to
like hike to the base. Camp he'll have someone drop
you at the. Top then it doesn't. Count then you
have to go under your own power up and. Down
that's why it like. Stinks like people that die on the,
mountain like it doesn't count as a. Summit, yeah because
you have to come. Down, yeah you need to die
in the. Ground you have to be finished then, die
otherwise it. Doesn't they don't even, like, well he did
make it to the, top but he died halfway, down
so he didn't.
Speaker 2: Summit, oh back to the.
Speaker 3: Timeline It's april twenty second of nineteen eighty, One bell
two six helicopter conducted a concentrated search Over East buttress
and adjacent glacier. Corridors this was chartered From alaska. Helicopters
it was a three hour flight with again Rangers robinson And,
covington and it focused on crevass and avalanche.
Speaker 2: Shoots and they did.
Speaker 3: Find at this time an old camp site that was
identified at approximately seventy two hundred feet and it was
consistent With waterman's travel. Timeline, however no tracks or evidence
continued beyond that. Point it's now Late april nineteen eighty.
One so after more than ten aerial missions involving The National,
PARK Us army And Alaska Alpine Rescue, group with no confirmed,
findings the active search operation was. Suspended johnny was listed
as missing and presumed, dead and no remains were ever.
Recovered SO i have a couple Cases i'm just going to.
Highlight So dnali has a very long track record of
climbers dying or not, dying but going missing on the park.
Speaker 2: On the.
Speaker 3: Mountain i'm just going to highlight two of the more
well known, ones just, briefly and then we'll get into.
THEORIES i think, Theories and this one is pretty clear.
Speaker 2: Cut.
Speaker 3: Ye so the next case was not too long after.
This it was nineteen eighty. Four it was a gentleman
by the name Of Naomi. Umura he was A japanese,
gentleman and In february of nineteen eighty, four he attempted
something no one had ever done, before a solo winter
ascent Of, denali and he was not. Reckless he was
one of the most accomplished endurance adventures in the. World
he was the first person to reach The North pole,
alone and a climber who had already Soloed denali once
before in summer. Conditions this time he chose The West
buttress in the dead of. Winter so On february, twelfth
on his forty third, birthday he reached the summit late
in the. Evening he radioed, afterward reporting success and saying
he had begun his. Descent he radioed, afterward reporting success
and saying he begun his. Descent the next, day Of february,
thirteenth he made one final brief radio. Contact he sounded
exhausted but. Calm he asked to be picked up At
Pace camp two days. Later that pickup never. HAPPENED a
severe winter storm moved in almost. Immediately search flights were
sporadic and. Dangerous at one, point a pilot believed he
saw him near a snow cave high on the, route
but no confirmation was ever. Possible ground searchers later found
evidence that he had been moving snow caves equipment, supplies
but never found him despite weeks of searching by park
rangers And japanese climbing. Teams he vanished Somewhere ontanali during his,
descent and his body has never been. Recovered and he
didn't fall on the way, up he didn't disappear during
an ambitious. Push he summitted and then the mountain kind
of just took. Him so this was a case of
a guy, who like you, Said, joe he made it up, there,
radioed they know he made, it and he actually was
halfway down and radioed again and was just two days
away from his pickup and then. Disappeared so that happened
in nineteen eighty WHAT i say in nineteen eighty, Four
then just recently in twenty twenty, three we had a
pair of, Climbers eli mckel And ifuin A wall APOLOGIZE
i said that. Wrong but nearly forty years after the
first two cases we, discussed this time this was in
the air of satellite COMMUNICATIONS gps tracking modern search and.
Rescues in Early may of twenty twenty, Three eli and
A wall were climbing in The Ruth gorge, area attempting
the west ridge Of Moose's. Tooth it's a, steep technical
peak just south of d nali's main. Area both were experienced.
Alpinists they were moving fast and. Light they were planning
a single day. Push on the morning Of may, fifth
they sent a routine satellite check in to a, friend
stating that they were starting their. Climb this would be
the last message they'd ever. Seen when they failed to
check in, again park rangers launched immediate. Search helicopters located
their base. Camp followed ski tracks towards the, route and
then boot, tracks and then boot tracks and climbing. Higher
those tracks ended abruptly at the crown of a small slab.
Avalanche below that, point scattered gear was, visible ice, tools
a helmet stretched down a massive fall line into heavily crevassed.
Train for, days the rangers conducted aerial searchers and short
haul insertions into the runout. Zone nothing more was, found
whether deteriorated snowfall again erased. Evidence officials eventually concluded that
both climbers were likely swept off the ridge by an.
Avalanche and carried into train where survival and recovery would be.
Impossible and, unfortunately these two were not lost because of
poor planning and they were not in. Experienced they just
simply were at the wrong place at the wrong. Time,
yeah and most likely an avalanche got this pair of,
climbers but it just highlights the dangers Of. Denali we
have a case of four very experienced climbers going. MISSING
i have a feeling most people that go here are
either completely experienced or therewith Ex like WHEN i IF i,
Go i'm gonna go on an expedition team WHERE i
might be the one who knows the, least But i'm
not gonna be in charge of. Anything, Yeah i'm gonna
be listening AND i can you, Know i'm in, shape
oh my, Weight But i'm gonna be doing exactly what
everyone tells me to do and not questioning.
Speaker 2: Anything. YEAH i think.
Speaker 3: So now he's unique in that it's so hard to
get to that is gonna be a deterrent for ninety
nine percent of the people that want to do.
Speaker 1: It, Yeah, no one's just like gonna be like wake
up on A, Sunday but LIKE i Think i'm gonna
go To.
Speaker 2: Danalian, yeah no one just does.
Speaker 3: That it's it's even if you tried to do, that
it would be for most of us ormies too hard
to do on your.
Speaker 2: Own so we'll get into theories real.
Speaker 3: QUICKLY i think everyone listening probably knows what, happened but
the most likely For johnny is probably an unroped crevass
fall on the Northwest fork Of Ruth. GLACIER i wanted
to scream that the entire, episode he was last seen
traveling unroped through heavily crevass.
Speaker 2: Train he was pulling a sled with. Him increases balance and.
Speaker 3: Stability it can act like an anchor if something. Happens
The Northwest fork Of Ruth glacier is one of the
most complex crevass fields in the.
Speaker 2: WORLD a great example of, This i'm trying to remember
the name of the.
Speaker 1: Movie it's the movie where a giant polar of vortex
comes down and like freezes most Of North america the
day after.
Speaker 2: Tomorrow it might be that one.
Speaker 1: When they're walking across the snow and they're actually over
the mall and say after, tomorrow, okay that is, Yeah
and they're pulling the sled and they fall through that's
like exactly what it would be. Like, yeah it wouldn't
be a. Mall it's just an open thing in the.
Speaker 3: Glacier, yeah and maybe you are able to get across
the snow, bridge but then it breaks for your sled
all of a. Sudden now the sled is an anchor and.
Speaker 2: It's like a.
Speaker 1: Puller example of they thought they were on solid ground
and they're, like actually one hundred feet just on like thin.
Speaker 2: Glass. Yeah now imagine there's no, glass just.
Speaker 3: Snow, yeah and Avoid, Yes SO i think this is
the most likely. Theory and of, course with every one
of our disappearances we ever, covered there's always a major
storm that. Hits there was a major storm the day
after he, left which erased any tracks of where he.
Went and this is supported by the fact that none
of his equipment was ever. Found so in that more
recent example of the unfortunate hiker climbers that were swept
away by an, avalanche searchers found all kinds of gear
kind of in the avalanche, zone so they kind of
knew what. Happened in this, case we have no, no
he didn't carry a lot of, gear but there was
no gear, Phone so that supports that he might have
had a sudden fall into a crevasse and just all
his gear and sled went. In and like we've, Said joe,
said if he had fallen into a deep crevass while
solo and, unroped there would be no evidence on the,
surface no noise, heard and no realistic chance of any.
Recovery very likely theory kind of ties into the first one.
Avalanche we don't need to really go into, that but
we had an ample of two climbers that were swept
away by an.
Speaker 2: Avalanche probably what could have happened To.
Speaker 1: Johnny SO i feel like there's enough people in the
area that were seeing him and reporting him they would
have known if an avalanche.
Speaker 3: Happened, yeah but it was a small. One, yeah and
there was avalanche activity at the. Time but, yeah you're
right either, way a small, avalanche even if it got him,
falling it could have knocked him into a. Crevass, Yes
so avalanche is a possible. Theory another likely theory that
maybe ties into these is a fatal exposure after. Immobilization
so this theory just goes he basically survived the initial,
incident but because he didn't have a tent sleeping, bag
he wasn't able to get, shelter and maybe if he
was injured, enough he couldn't dig effectively in the, snow
melt snow for, water maintain core. Temperatures any minor injury
could immobilize you in almost certain. Death in these conditions less.
Likely we just got to mention. Him so there might
have been psychological deterioration leading to a face decision making.
INCIDENT i don't think this is too, likely even though
he did have a history of mental health. ISSUES i
think he was very determined to summit this, mountain and
he was very well planned and. Experienced and this gets
discussed a lot around because this pretty old. Case and
they bring up the note that he left the last.
Kiss he was right Before april, First he was articulating
a clear, Out he described a food, timeline he discussed
exit op options to other climbers in the. Area none of,
that to, me sounds like an extremely deteriorating mental. Condition
it sounds like he was perfectly. Coherent was like he
absolutely knew what he was planning to. Do he seemed, Okay,
YEAH i, Agree SO i don't think that's a likely.
Theory and then there's the other couple theories intentional. SUICIDE
i don't think. SO i don't think.
Speaker 1: So it just sounds like, it JUST i, mean in
this type of, mountain in that type of, Condition, yeah
solo doesn't matter how well prepared you, are if you
have one little, Thing just as we, said it's just
it's too.
Speaker 3: Bad it's. Unforgiving and then the most unlikely ist feul.
PLAY i mean there's barely anyone out. There, yeah nobody's
following you out to Denalate a to do. SOMETHING i
mean that would be The, yeah so that'd be the
place to do.
Speaker 1: It it would be the place to do. It but why,
yeah you'd have the time that. Perfectly, yeah, Yeah I'm
i'm a on just like a crevasse or potentially tiny
avalanche sweeping him into a crevass.
Speaker 3: Or it was like the little slab avalanches that knocked,
him knocked his footing off and then he.
Speaker 2: Fell. Yeah, yeah, NO i.
Speaker 3: Think, sadly based on the, train based on the other
cases we briefly, COVERED i think that gentleman From japan
probably similar. Scenario, yeah AND i don't you, know because
of all his remains and gear will never be.
Speaker 2: Found, yeah THAT'S.
Speaker 1: I remember seeing a documentary on crevasses and the guy
was telling a story ABOUT i could hear his friend
and it haunts him, Still i'm sure because he didn't make.
It they couldn't find him, yea and they just heard
him yelling for, help and it's like you just have
to be like there's literally nothing you can, do, no.
Speaker 2: Which is just.
Speaker 1: Terrifying so, yeah so we'll leave you on. That thanks
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Speaker 2: Time La
Speaker 1: Bas