WEBVTT

1
00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:03.000
<v Speaker 1>How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with

2
00:00:03.040 --> 00:00:07.879
<v Speaker 1>no ads? Easy? Become a patron for just five dollars

3
00:00:07.919 --> 00:00:10.800
<v Speaker 1>a month. You get access to a private RSS feed

4
00:00:10.839 --> 00:00:14.240
<v Speaker 1>where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month.

5
00:00:14.279 --> 00:00:16.879
<v Speaker 1>We'll get you that and a special dot net rocks

6
00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:21.000
<v Speaker 1>patron mug. Sign up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks

7
00:00:21.120 --> 00:00:37.719
<v Speaker 1>dot com. Hey guess what might it's dot ad rocks

8
00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:40.600
<v Speaker 1>episode nineteen seventy nine. And I said that with an

9
00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:45.320
<v Speaker 1>Australian accent because I'm Carl Franklin here in Connecticut.

10
00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:48.359
<v Speaker 2>And I'm Richard Campbell, and I'm down in Queensland, Australia.

11
00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:51.200
<v Speaker 1>So and our guest is in Australia as well, So

12
00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:53.399
<v Speaker 1>it's gonna be a down Under show today.

13
00:00:53.479 --> 00:00:55.240
<v Speaker 2>Say we got a Southern Hemisphere bias?

14
00:00:55.560 --> 00:01:00.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, Uh so let's talk a bit out

15
00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:04.760
<v Speaker 1>the show number. It's nineteen seventy nine, So what happened

16
00:01:04.799 --> 00:01:05.640
<v Speaker 1>in that year?

17
00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:08.719
<v Speaker 2>Well, let me just oh a fair bit. Yeah, a

18
00:01:08.760 --> 00:01:11.200
<v Speaker 2>lot of things. You perusing the list, I've got a

19
00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:13.400
<v Speaker 2>lot of space and a lot, well a little bit

20
00:01:13.400 --> 00:01:16.159
<v Speaker 2>of space, a lot of science at a huge amount

21
00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:17.120
<v Speaker 2>of compute, Well.

22
00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:19.840
<v Speaker 1>A lot happened in Iran, China, and the Soviet Union

23
00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:26.359
<v Speaker 1>in Afghanistan. Three Mile Island happened, the Iran hostage crisis,

24
00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:32.640
<v Speaker 1>the Iranian Revolution, Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

25
00:01:32.719 --> 00:01:35.680
<v Speaker 2>That didn't end well, Nope for them, for anyone.

26
00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:40.439
<v Speaker 1>US China relations. United States severed diplomatic ties with Taiwan,

27
00:01:40.599 --> 00:01:45.640
<v Speaker 1>established full diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China. Oh,

28
00:01:45.799 --> 00:01:50.239
<v Speaker 1>let's see some The music for UNSEF concert was kind

29
00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:52.239
<v Speaker 1>of important.

30
00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:56.159
<v Speaker 2>We're heading into the Live aid era, right, Yeah, that's coming.

31
00:01:56.359 --> 00:01:59.159
<v Speaker 1>The Dukes of Hazzard premiered on January twenty sixth I

32
00:01:59.200 --> 00:02:02.480
<v Speaker 1>remember my brother and Nice to drive my mother crazy,

33
00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:05.560
<v Speaker 1>all the car chases and stuff. She would like come

34
00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:07.840
<v Speaker 1>in and turn the television off. It just drove her

35
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:10.680
<v Speaker 1>up the wall. I think that was the point of

36
00:02:10.680 --> 00:02:11.759
<v Speaker 1>the Dukes, that hazard, wasn't it.

37
00:02:12.039 --> 00:02:12.240
<v Speaker 2>Driver.

38
00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:18.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you'll talk about space. So an anti nuclear demonstration

39
00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:22.680
<v Speaker 1>happened on September twenty third. Nearly two hundred thousand people

40
00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:27.960
<v Speaker 1>protested nuclear power in New York City, or just nuclear

41
00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:34.599
<v Speaker 1>in general. But tell us about space and compute what happened.

42
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Ninety seventy nine is the year that the Columbia Shuttle

43
00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:41.759
<v Speaker 2>is delivered to Kennedy Space Center. It's still two years

44
00:02:41.800 --> 00:02:44.639
<v Speaker 2>away from flying, but they it has now been built.

45
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:49.319
<v Speaker 2>Enterprise is being retired as a museum article after finishing

46
00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:51.479
<v Speaker 2>its testing. It was too expensive to refit it into

47
00:02:51.479 --> 00:02:54.159
<v Speaker 2>being a spacecraft, although that had been the original attension.

48
00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Instead they'll use a different test article, which will become Challenger. Yeah,

49
00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:01.759
<v Speaker 2>but Columbia's now assembled, bunch of changes. It still has problems.

50
00:03:01.800 --> 00:03:04.520
<v Speaker 2>It's the heaviest of the shuttles that will fly, and

51
00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:07.439
<v Speaker 2>so it's limited by certain aspects. But it's still you know,

52
00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:09.639
<v Speaker 2>we're making progress, although a couple of years away from flying.

53
00:03:10.919 --> 00:03:13.319
<v Speaker 2>Voyager one and two make their fly bys of Jupiter

54
00:03:13.319 --> 00:03:16.159
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen seventy nine, and Pioneer eleven does the very

55
00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:19.120
<v Speaker 2>first flyby of Saturn. Wow. So those are all new things.

56
00:03:19.159 --> 00:03:26.120
<v Speaker 2>And Skylab in July nineteen seventy nine now originally been

57
00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:29.199
<v Speaker 2>launched in nineteen seventy three as part of the Apollo

58
00:03:29.520 --> 00:03:32.439
<v Speaker 2>Missions projects. It was only intended for one hundred and

59
00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:36.400
<v Speaker 2>forty days of use, okay, and so this is already

60
00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:39.120
<v Speaker 2>six years later. They actually had one hundred and seventy

61
00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.080
<v Speaker 2>two days of use over three missions they extended it.

62
00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:46.120
<v Speaker 2>It had plenty of problems they and it had been

63
00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:48.879
<v Speaker 2>left empty, although prepped for someone else to visit it.

64
00:03:48.919 --> 00:03:51.400
<v Speaker 2>They had a welcome kit, the door been left unlocked,

65
00:03:51.400 --> 00:03:54.599
<v Speaker 2>all that sort of thing. And they had thought that

66
00:03:54.639 --> 00:03:56.000
<v Speaker 2>they would be able to get the shutle ready in

67
00:03:56.000 --> 00:03:57.560
<v Speaker 2>time to keep an a do over. In fact, they

68
00:03:57.560 --> 00:03:59.120
<v Speaker 2>figured it would stay it over till at least the

69
00:03:59.120 --> 00:04:02.199
<v Speaker 2>early eighties, but there was a solar maximum going on

70
00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:05.560
<v Speaker 2>then they and the additional solariation expands the atmosphere to

71
00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:09.400
<v Speaker 2>the dragon Skylab was greater than expected. Also, there was

72
00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:13.800
<v Speaker 2>a lot broken. You know, they used control moment gyros

73
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:16.639
<v Speaker 2>for directional stabilization on Skylab, and at that point one

74
00:04:16.639 --> 00:04:19.079
<v Speaker 2>had already failed and another one was failing, and there

75
00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:21.360
<v Speaker 2>had been no plan to make them serviceable, so there

76
00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:23.600
<v Speaker 2>was really no way to fix them. They would literally

77
00:04:23.680 --> 00:04:26.360
<v Speaker 2>have to deploy a new set of gyros on some

78
00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:28.360
<v Speaker 2>kind of attachment to the space station. So there's going

79
00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:29.879
<v Speaker 2>to get this point was like, you could just build

80
00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:30.879
<v Speaker 2>another space station.

81
00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:32.720
<v Speaker 1>So Skylab was manned. At one point.

82
00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:35.639
<v Speaker 2>My Skylab had three mission sent to it, yes, okay, one, two,

83
00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:38.079
<v Speaker 2>and three, and we talked about those you know, in

84
00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:42.839
<v Speaker 2>the past few shows when when those happened. But now

85
00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:45.240
<v Speaker 2>it had been empty for several years, the atmosphere had expanded,

86
00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:47.199
<v Speaker 2>so it was reintercasterment and expected, and it came down

87
00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:50.759
<v Speaker 2>over the Indian Ocean and Australia, and.

88
00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:54.319
<v Speaker 1>It lasted a lot longer than my and my brother's

89
00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:59.120
<v Speaker 1>snow sculpture referring to the blizzard of seventy eight that

90
00:04:59.160 --> 00:05:01.000
<v Speaker 1>we talked about last week's.

91
00:05:00.879 --> 00:05:03.959
<v Speaker 2>In the previous episode. One other science one before we

92
00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:06.399
<v Speaker 2>get into the computing stuff, because the community stuff so extensive,

93
00:05:06.560 --> 00:05:09.439
<v Speaker 2>is nineteen seventy nine is the year that we first

94
00:05:09.519 --> 00:05:15.199
<v Speaker 2>found hydro thermal events. So this was the Riviera submersible

95
00:05:15.639 --> 00:05:19.600
<v Speaker 2>experiments off the southern south of Baja California, about eighty

96
00:05:19.600 --> 00:05:22.120
<v Speaker 2>five hundred feet of water with you remember the Alvin

97
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:27.160
<v Speaker 2>submersible woods whole. So they were looking around for underwater

98
00:05:27.800 --> 00:05:30.439
<v Speaker 2>volcanic activity and came across these things we now know

99
00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:35.079
<v Speaker 2>as black smokers. So these were jets of black material

100
00:05:35.160 --> 00:05:38.319
<v Speaker 2>coming out of the ocean floor and the extremely hot

101
00:05:38.560 --> 00:05:41.319
<v Speaker 2>three hundred eighty degrees celsius like seven hundred degrees fahrenheit

102
00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:46.079
<v Speaker 2>in the deep dark abyssal parts of the ocean. And

103
00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:50.560
<v Speaker 2>they're surrounded by life. There are tube worms and kinds

104
00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:52.879
<v Speaker 2>of crabs and all sorts of things that are feeding

105
00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:55.800
<v Speaker 2>off of the heat and the minerals that are pouring

106
00:05:55.839 --> 00:05:59.680
<v Speaker 2>out of these black smokers. And it was a revolution

107
00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:03.000
<v Speaker 2>in thinking around where life could emerge. It was this

108
00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:05.040
<v Speaker 2>belief that you needed to be a certain distance away

109
00:06:05.040 --> 00:06:06.480
<v Speaker 2>from the sun and have pad with water and all

110
00:06:06.480 --> 00:06:10.240
<v Speaker 2>these things. And here was this completely dark place that

111
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:13.360
<v Speaker 2>had life emerging around it. And it speaks to the

112
00:06:13.480 --> 00:06:17.120
<v Speaker 2>idea that we talk about these days about perhaps the

113
00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:22.839
<v Speaker 2>Europa in orbit around Jupiter, with enough heat, could possibly

114
00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:25.639
<v Speaker 2>have life under that ocean, underneath the ice cap that

115
00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:28.519
<v Speaker 2>is Europa. So that all begins in seventy nine with

116
00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:30.759
<v Speaker 2>its discovery. Nobody thought they were there. This was a

117
00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:32.600
<v Speaker 2>fine So is the important moment.

118
00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:36.680
<v Speaker 1>You know what I remember fondly about this period National

119
00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:41.720
<v Speaker 1>Geographic magazine. There was some great photos and especially from

120
00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:46.439
<v Speaker 1>those space missions, and just amazing, amazing stuff. And as

121
00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:49.639
<v Speaker 1>a kid, I was just wrapped by a National Geographic

122
00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:52.959
<v Speaker 1>My mother recently passed and we're cleaning out her attic,

123
00:06:53.600 --> 00:06:57.240
<v Speaker 1>and it turns out there they saved all their National

124
00:06:57.279 --> 00:07:00.199
<v Speaker 1>Geographic magazines going back to the thirties.

125
00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:05.279
<v Speaker 2>Wow, that's crazy. Yes, So so here's a weird one

126
00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:08.600
<v Speaker 2>about those black smokers. So you'll share this nationally graphic magazine.

127
00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.439
<v Speaker 2>Those two birds are brightly colored. They're white and red.

128
00:07:11.519 --> 00:07:13.959
<v Speaker 2>It's like it's dark. Why these things have colors? Yeah,

129
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:19.319
<v Speaker 2>I did do, all right. Let's talk about computers. Nineteen

130
00:07:19.360 --> 00:07:21.800
<v Speaker 2>seventy nine the release of the Atari model four hundred

131
00:07:21.839 --> 00:07:26.360
<v Speaker 2>and eight hundred, also the TI ninety nine that is

132
00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:29.120
<v Speaker 2>a scientific calculator. No, no, t I nine nine was a

133
00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.319
<v Speaker 2>computer made by talking instruments. Yeah no, I mean games

134
00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:35.439
<v Speaker 2>for it back in the day. The Motor sixty eight

135
00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:40.120
<v Speaker 2>thousand processor is released, and a couple of online things.

136
00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:45.079
<v Speaker 2>The origin of CompuServe. Oh yeah, I love the CompuServe.

137
00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:50.000
<v Speaker 2>So originally a company a subsidiary of Golden United Life

138
00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:53.120
<v Speaker 2>Insurance out of Columbus, Ohio, which they actually started in

139
00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:56.759
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty nine renting time on PDP tens, but in

140
00:07:56.839 --> 00:08:00.399
<v Speaker 2>seventy nine they added dial up so you could island.

141
00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:03.240
<v Speaker 2>It was acually internal customers primarily, but they started opening

142
00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:06.279
<v Speaker 2>up to consumers and it didn't go particularly well. The

143
00:08:06.279 --> 00:08:08.319
<v Speaker 2>company gets acquired in nineteen eighty by H and R.

144
00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:10.519
<v Speaker 2>Block for twenty five million dollars. They only have they

145
00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:12.759
<v Speaker 2>have less than a thousand users at that time, but

146
00:08:12.879 --> 00:08:15.279
<v Speaker 2>by ninet eighty four it'll be one hundred and ten thousand.

147
00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:16.920
<v Speaker 1>Wasn't they owned by Sears at one point.

148
00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:19.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it went through many hands before it end up

149
00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:20.759
<v Speaker 2>at AOL.

150
00:08:20.879 --> 00:08:23.720
<v Speaker 1>But I just remember the snap packs which had you know,

151
00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:27.800
<v Speaker 1>a code and it had the password explore plus world,

152
00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:28.959
<v Speaker 1>right you remember that?

153
00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:32.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, and so much fun. This is also just

154
00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:33.960
<v Speaker 2>beginning of modes in general. So this is when I

155
00:08:34.039 --> 00:08:38.360
<v Speaker 2>first got a motem as well. And for better or worse,

156
00:08:38.440 --> 00:08:40.919
<v Speaker 2>like the Vancouver area had a ton of BBS's, it

157
00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:43.480
<v Speaker 2>was very early on. It just ways for geeks to

158
00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:46.200
<v Speaker 2>connect to each other. It's also the first computer worm

159
00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:50.279
<v Speaker 2>was built by John Shock and John Hopp at Xerox Park,

160
00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.000
<v Speaker 2>largely by accident of propagating piece of software across networks.

161
00:08:54.039 --> 00:08:56.960
<v Speaker 2>And so there was your first computer worm. But by far,

162
00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:00.519
<v Speaker 2>without a doubt, the most important thing for computing in

163
00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:04.639
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy nine VisiCalc. Van Bricklin, the precursor to all

164
00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:07.840
<v Speaker 2>the spreadsheets. Yeah, and the first real you know they

165
00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:11.559
<v Speaker 2>at one point it was personal computers are described as

166
00:09:11.600 --> 00:09:15.440
<v Speaker 2>an accessory for Visical. Right, this was the point of

167
00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:18.799
<v Speaker 2>the personal computer first released in seventy nine on the

168
00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:21.759
<v Speaker 2>Apple two and IBM sites in their history of the

169
00:09:21.799 --> 00:09:26.799
<v Speaker 2>IBM PC that that product shipping made them accelerate the

170
00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:29.320
<v Speaker 2>development of the IBM PC to get a version of

171
00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:32.200
<v Speaker 2>Hysical Chronic. Now, the ibm PC made sense and they

172
00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:35.720
<v Speaker 2>got it out in nineteen eighty. The story of VISICALCU

173
00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.480
<v Speaker 2>is also one of mush drama too, because a former

174
00:09:39.879 --> 00:09:44.440
<v Speaker 2>Visit Corp employee, Michiga Porl leaves and forms the Lotus

175
00:09:44.480 --> 00:09:47.639
<v Speaker 2>Corporation Lotus one two three, create Lotus one two three

176
00:09:47.720 --> 00:09:51.320
<v Speaker 2>and then the Electronic Frontier Foundation. Yeah, that was part

177
00:09:51.360 --> 00:09:52.960
<v Speaker 2>of that, and that's nineteen eighty three, and what was

178
00:09:52.960 --> 00:09:54.519
<v Speaker 2>the claim to fame for Lotus one two to three

179
00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:57.600
<v Speaker 2>totally optimized for the IBM PC, and that of course

180
00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:01.000
<v Speaker 2>will later lead to multi Plan by Microsoft, which will

181
00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:02.759
<v Speaker 2>eventually become Excel. Yeah.

182
00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:05.440
<v Speaker 1>I remember my father bought a Tiers eight Model four

183
00:10:05.679 --> 00:10:08.480
<v Speaker 1>and that's kind of my first foray into computers, and

184
00:10:08.639 --> 00:10:09.879
<v Speaker 1>he bought it for Visical.

185
00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:11.919
<v Speaker 2>YEP. Visical was villefort because.

186
00:10:11.720 --> 00:10:14.720
<v Speaker 1>He did his taxes and bills and everything on Visical.

187
00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:16.759
<v Speaker 1>Can I remember once a month and getting that thing

188
00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:19.200
<v Speaker 1>out and putting it on the dining room table and

189
00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:20.919
<v Speaker 1>we didn't see him for a few hours.

190
00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:26.279
<v Speaker 2>You know this is really up until now, personal computers

191
00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:28.840
<v Speaker 2>have been toys. Yeah right, this is the product that

192
00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:33.879
<v Speaker 2>made it actually a business product and important and changed everything. Yeah.

193
00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:36.559
<v Speaker 1>Still a critical tool in the arsenal today.

194
00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, spreadsheets, spreadsheets. Whole companies built around spreadsheets without

195
00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:40.639
<v Speaker 2>a doubt.

196
00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:42.799
<v Speaker 1>You have a great joke, don't you, Richard? How about

197
00:10:42.840 --> 00:10:44.240
<v Speaker 1>you and your wife in spreadsheet?

198
00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:47.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh but yeah, she's the industrial engineer. I'm a programmer.

199
00:10:47.440 --> 00:10:50.159
<v Speaker 2>When we argue, it involves a spreadsheet. Yeah, and it's

200
00:10:50.200 --> 00:10:52.360
<v Speaker 2>only because that happened, right. We were trying to we

201
00:10:53.200 --> 00:10:56.320
<v Speaker 2>were arguing about how to redo a deck, and in

202
00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:58.600
<v Speaker 2>the end resolved the argument with a spreadsheet. I'm like,

203
00:10:58.600 --> 00:11:01.600
<v Speaker 2>this is who we are. It's great, this is reality

204
00:11:01.639 --> 00:11:04.600
<v Speaker 2>for us. Awesome? So is that it? That's it? All right?

205
00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Well with that, let's roll the crazy music for better

206
00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:07.919
<v Speaker 1>no framework?

207
00:11:15.720 --> 00:11:16.320
<v Speaker 2>Man, what do you got?

208
00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:16.480
<v Speaker 3>Well?

209
00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:19.639
<v Speaker 1>I realized when we were recording last week's show that

210
00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:22.080
<v Speaker 1>this might have been a better, better no framework for that.

211
00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:30.159
<v Speaker 1>But tech Nitium Software has a DNS server written in

212
00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:35.799
<v Speaker 1>C sharp that's open source and their tagline is self

213
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:40.240
<v Speaker 1>host a DNS server for privacy and security, block ads

214
00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:43.679
<v Speaker 1>in malware at the DNS level for your entire network,

215
00:11:44.679 --> 00:11:47.080
<v Speaker 1>and technitium I don't know how you say it, but

216
00:11:47.759 --> 00:11:54.200
<v Speaker 1>tech nit i um technitium probably technician who knows. DNS

217
00:11:54.240 --> 00:11:57.200
<v Speaker 1>server is an open source, authoritative as well as recursive

218
00:11:57.279 --> 00:11:59.559
<v Speaker 1>DNS server that can be used for self hosting a

219
00:11:59.639 --> 00:12:02.519
<v Speaker 1>DNS server for privacy and security. It works out of

220
00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:05.480
<v Speaker 1>the box with no or minimal configuration and provides a

221
00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:10.200
<v Speaker 1>user friendly web console accessible using any modern web browser.

222
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:11.399
<v Speaker 1>Cool how about that?

223
00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:14.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, interesting? And we always argument of like what

224
00:12:14.600 --> 00:12:17.519
<v Speaker 2>DNA server should you run, because you know, there's plenty

225
00:12:17.519 --> 00:12:19.320
<v Speaker 2>of free ones out there, but this is a free

226
00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:21.679
<v Speaker 2>one too, guys. It's just open source, so good stuff.

227
00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:24.159
<v Speaker 1>But if you think about it, like your basic Windows

228
00:12:24.240 --> 00:12:28.960
<v Speaker 1>land has everything except the DNS server, and back in

229
00:12:29.000 --> 00:12:31.360
<v Speaker 1>the day we were editing host files and putting IP

230
00:12:31.480 --> 00:12:34.600
<v Speaker 1>addresses and names in there, and then you had some

231
00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.879
<v Speaker 1>other protocols on top of that that worked with anything

232
00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:42.159
<v Speaker 1>but TCP IP, right, So you know, this is kind

233
00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:44.159
<v Speaker 1>of a it's kind of an important thing. If you

234
00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:48.039
<v Speaker 1>don't want to go outside of your network for DNS. Yeah,

235
00:12:48.080 --> 00:12:51.320
<v Speaker 1>there you go. If you're gonna know if you need it. Yeah,

236
00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:52.720
<v Speaker 1>we're not going to try to sell.

237
00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.840
<v Speaker 2>You on No. And without a doubt. It's like, yeah,

238
00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.840
<v Speaker 2>it's one of those things. Just learned to configure it correctly.

239
00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:01.759
<v Speaker 2>It's important, right, you know that whole running joke of

240
00:13:02.240 --> 00:13:08.039
<v Speaker 2>it could be DNS, it's always DNS. Definitely, definitely DNS.

241
00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:11.120
<v Speaker 2>It's impossible if it's DNS. It could be DNS. It's

242
00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:14.559
<v Speaker 2>dns NS. Okay, Well that's what I got today. Richard,

243
00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:17.919
<v Speaker 2>who's talking to us awesome, grabbed a comment off show

244
00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:21.039
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy four, the one we did with Don Delamarski

245
00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:24.159
<v Speaker 2>when we talked about Gethub spec kit. Yeah, and they've

246
00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:26.639
<v Speaker 2>said a huge conversation, lots going down there. And I've

247
00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:28.360
<v Speaker 2>read comments from this show before, and I'm gonna read

248
00:13:28.399 --> 00:13:30.200
<v Speaker 2>oother one. This one's from Richard Cox who said, I

249
00:13:30.279 --> 00:13:32.320
<v Speaker 2>just finished listening to this. I think there's one part

250
00:13:32.360 --> 00:13:35.519
<v Speaker 2>that your guests got wrong. If m inference stopped, work

251
00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:38.759
<v Speaker 2>stops thanks to the bubble bursting. Talking about the AI bubble,

252
00:13:39.000 --> 00:13:42.120
<v Speaker 2>the models will start to degrade as new input like

253
00:13:42.200 --> 00:13:45.000
<v Speaker 2>code using new versions of tools will not be included.

254
00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:48.639
<v Speaker 2>Then the output will not use those new capabilities. IE.

255
00:13:48.840 --> 00:13:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Over time, as the rest of the world moves forwards,

256
00:13:51.039 --> 00:13:54.080
<v Speaker 2>the lms will increasingly be stuck in the past. Yeah,

257
00:13:54.720 --> 00:13:57.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I get the sentiment that, you know, when

258
00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:59.440
<v Speaker 2>the bubble bursts, a certain amount of work's going to

259
00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:03.000
<v Speaker 2>go away. Would argue there's too many models. Now, I'm

260
00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.000
<v Speaker 2>sure there'll be a few models, so they'll continue to

261
00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:09.399
<v Speaker 2>go forward. But we're seeing such incredible overspending at the moment, right,

262
00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:13.679
<v Speaker 2>It'll be interesting to see what happens. And modelbility is

263
00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:17.559
<v Speaker 2>getting easier, and I would also argue less important, like

264
00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:19.440
<v Speaker 2>in that sense that it's just going to be part

265
00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:23.840
<v Speaker 2>of the flow. It'll be interesting to see what models

266
00:14:23.960 --> 00:14:28.039
<v Speaker 2>emerge post bubble burst, right, and boy, there's lots of

267
00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:30.320
<v Speaker 2>noises about the bubble versus these days. It's be interesting

268
00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.960
<v Speaker 2>to see what happens. Oh, I know it, but fair point,

269
00:14:34.600 --> 00:14:36.759
<v Speaker 2>it's all we're you know. The interesting thing about this

270
00:14:36.879 --> 00:14:39.080
<v Speaker 2>is this software in some ways does degrade because the

271
00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.399
<v Speaker 2>world keeps moving on and these things need to keep

272
00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:44.720
<v Speaker 2>being regenerated and optimized. So Richard, thank you so much

273
00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:46.200
<v Speaker 2>for your comment and a copy of music co Buy is

274
00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:47.360
<v Speaker 2>on its way to you, and if you'd like a

275
00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:48.799
<v Speaker 2>copy of music, go buy. I write a comment on

276
00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.480
<v Speaker 2>the website at dot netrogs dot com or on the facebooks.

277
00:14:51.480 --> 00:14:52.960
<v Speaker 2>We publish every show there and if you comment there

278
00:14:52.960 --> 00:14:54.559
<v Speaker 2>and ever reading the show, we'll send your copy us

279
00:14:54.639 --> 00:14:55.000
<v Speaker 2>to go buy.

280
00:14:55.159 --> 00:14:57.279
<v Speaker 1>And of course needs to co by developed a while

281
00:14:57.360 --> 00:15:01.000
<v Speaker 1>ago to provide music that's neither too boring or to

282
00:15:01.159 --> 00:15:06.360
<v Speaker 1>distracting twenty five minutes track and there's now twenty three

283
00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:09.120
<v Speaker 1>tracks and you can get it at Musicdoco by dot

284
00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.919
<v Speaker 1>net and the entire collection in wave, flak and MP

285
00:15:14.000 --> 00:15:20.519
<v Speaker 1>three formats. Okay, let's introduce Callum Simpson and he is

286
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.679
<v Speaker 1>a solution architect with fourteen years of software development experience

287
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:30.600
<v Speaker 1>as of this recording, and recently promoted VP of AI SSW,

288
00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:35.480
<v Speaker 1>an enterprise consultancy based in Australia. Our friend Adam Cogan

289
00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:39.480
<v Speaker 1>runs that he spends most of his time using AI

290
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:43.120
<v Speaker 1>to help deliver projects faster or building projects that use AI,

291
00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.360
<v Speaker 1>and usually both. Despite being more productive than ever, he

292
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:48.639
<v Speaker 1>claims to have not written a complete line of code

293
00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:53.720
<v Speaker 1>in over a year. He's also a product owner of

294
00:15:53.840 --> 00:15:59.480
<v Speaker 1>SSW yak Shaver, an AI product. He'll tell us about today.

295
00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.320
<v Speaker 3>Callum, thank you very much, Carl, and great to be here.

296
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.879
<v Speaker 2>Hey Richard, hey Man, great to have you. I was

297
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:09.120
<v Speaker 2>just down at SSW was part of their brainstorming day,

298
00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:10.600
<v Speaker 2>so we had a chance to hang out.

299
00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:11.879
<v Speaker 3>Okay, what did you think about it?

300
00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's great. You know, it's not my first brainstorm.

301
00:16:14.399 --> 00:16:17.679
<v Speaker 2>It's always fun. What I think you saw my clothes

302
00:16:17.720 --> 00:16:21.120
<v Speaker 2>where I commented on you know, SSW is clearly all

303
00:16:21.120 --> 00:16:23.519
<v Speaker 2>in on the AI space, and more than anything, what

304
00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:25.840
<v Speaker 2>I saw was a bunch of different teams trying to

305
00:16:25.840 --> 00:16:29.480
<v Speaker 2>find a way to rain the LMS in, to put

306
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:33.360
<v Speaker 2>parameters around them so that they focus on the things

307
00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:37.600
<v Speaker 2>that are important productivity wise, whether that's around controlling architecture,

308
00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:40.679
<v Speaker 2>deployment strategies you talked about. It was a group that

309
00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.559
<v Speaker 2>we're talking about, I said, a UX frameworks that also

310
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:46.240
<v Speaker 2>the LMS would be pressed against. It's like this is

311
00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:49.759
<v Speaker 2>how you build UI when you write, when you're building code,

312
00:16:49.759 --> 00:16:52.279
<v Speaker 2>and I just thought it was really clear thinking from

313
00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:54.799
<v Speaker 2>a group of really smart developers trying to get the

314
00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:56.000
<v Speaker 2>most value from these tools.

315
00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:59.120
<v Speaker 3>That's awesome, that's right. Yeah, we're trying to use it.

316
00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.679
<v Speaker 3>I guess in every way we possibly can to get

317
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:05.440
<v Speaker 3>as much value out of it. So anything that can

318
00:17:05.480 --> 00:17:07.880
<v Speaker 3>be sold by AI, we are trying to do it.

319
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:08.240
<v Speaker 2>Cool.

320
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:13.359
<v Speaker 1>I am so curious about yak shaver. First of all,

321
00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:16.519
<v Speaker 1>what a funny name. Wow, And I think.

322
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:18.599
<v Speaker 2>Adam Cogan was involved. What do you think was going

323
00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:19.079
<v Speaker 2>to happen?

324
00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:24.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure, yeah, But but there's probably just a very

325
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:26.799
<v Speaker 1>small handful of people in this world who have ever

326
00:17:26.920 --> 00:17:28.400
<v Speaker 1>attempted to shave a yak.

327
00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, first you have to own a yak, don't you.

328
00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:33.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, necessarily you could be a yak shaver

329
00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:36.559
<v Speaker 1>professional and go around from yak to yak to yak,

330
00:17:37.559 --> 00:17:42.079
<v Speaker 1>you know. I mean they have obviously yaq milkers who

331
00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:45.480
<v Speaker 1>make butter from yak, you know, cream or whatever.

332
00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:48.680
<v Speaker 2>I've had yak milk in my coffee, in my tea.

333
00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:50.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's the thing when you're in Nepal.

334
00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:53.920
<v Speaker 3>I was gonna say it's potentially an alternative name, but

335
00:17:54.119 --> 00:17:58.039
<v Speaker 3>the name itself came from I think there was a

336
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:01.759
<v Speaker 3>guy called Colin Vieri in the nineties, was a PhD

337
00:18:01.880 --> 00:18:08.240
<v Speaker 3>student at MIT, and he got the name from an

338
00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:13.000
<v Speaker 3>episode of The Ren and Stimpy Show. In that show,

339
00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:17.279
<v Speaker 3>there was a yak shaving day, and basically yac shaving

340
00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:20.440
<v Speaker 3>Day was sort of like this thing where where these

341
00:18:20.480 --> 00:18:24.640
<v Speaker 3>people do this series of ridiculous tasks. And so the

342
00:18:24.680 --> 00:18:28.200
<v Speaker 3>concept of yak shaving is sort of like when you

343
00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:32.440
<v Speaker 3>start doing your main mission and then you realize, all, right,

344
00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.960
<v Speaker 3>in order to achieve this mission, I need to go

345
00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:37.279
<v Speaker 3>down a side quest, and then in order to do

346
00:18:37.319 --> 00:18:39.400
<v Speaker 3>this side quest, I need to go and do another

347
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:41.759
<v Speaker 3>side quest first before I can come back and finish

348
00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:44.240
<v Speaker 3>my first side quest to finish the main goal. And

349
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.519
<v Speaker 3>then you end up going down this like ten ten

350
00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:52.039
<v Speaker 3>layers of causality, and whatever you're doing has absolutely nothing

351
00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:55.200
<v Speaker 3>apparently to do with the original goal, but you have

352
00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.599
<v Speaker 3>to do it unblock all your other things to get

353
00:18:57.640 --> 00:18:59.039
<v Speaker 3>back up to the original task.

354
00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:01.839
<v Speaker 1>And then every new layer you say to yourself, should

355
00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:04.000
<v Speaker 1>I really be doing this exactly?

356
00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:05.640
<v Speaker 3>What am I doing with my wife?

357
00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:11.160
<v Speaker 2>Better use is of my time?

358
00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:14.640
<v Speaker 3>Exactly? And so that's sort of what we're what we're

359
00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:18.559
<v Speaker 3>trying to do with with Yakshava is cut out as

360
00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.640
<v Speaker 3>much of that sort of busy work as possible. Now,

361
00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:27.480
<v Speaker 3>obviously we are software developers, so most of the busy

362
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:31.119
<v Speaker 3>work we do has to do with or at least

363
00:19:31.160 --> 00:19:32.799
<v Speaker 3>a large part of it has to do with putting

364
00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:36.799
<v Speaker 3>items in backlogs. So that was the sort of original concept.

365
00:19:36.920 --> 00:19:41.359
<v Speaker 3>Is you know, when you've got an issue, when you

366
00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:44.599
<v Speaker 3>see a bug on a website, what do you have

367
00:19:44.680 --> 00:19:48.920
<v Speaker 3>to do to actually report that bug to the right team?

368
00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:51.559
<v Speaker 3>You know, you need to figure out which backlog does

369
00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:56.880
<v Speaker 3>this PBI belonging, who are the stakeholders of this project,

370
00:19:57.359 --> 00:19:59.720
<v Speaker 3>all that sort of stuff, And if you're on a

371
00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.640
<v Speaker 3>call with a bunch of important people, you can either

372
00:20:03.799 --> 00:20:05.920
<v Speaker 3>sort of skip over the problem because you know you've

373
00:20:05.960 --> 00:20:08.880
<v Speaker 3>got better things to talk about, or you can tell everyone,

374
00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:11.119
<v Speaker 3>all right, wait for five minutes, I need to go

375
00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.000
<v Speaker 3>figure out all these details, put in the right backlog

376
00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.480
<v Speaker 3>all that stuff first. So it is a tough problem.

377
00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:20.519
<v Speaker 3>And obviously we don't want to skip over issues when

378
00:20:20.519 --> 00:20:22.039
<v Speaker 3>we see them, but we also don't want to waste

379
00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:25.240
<v Speaker 3>everyone's time. So that's that's sort of the whole idea

380
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:28.839
<v Speaker 3>of what we're trying to achieve or the problem we're

381
00:20:28.839 --> 00:20:29.440
<v Speaker 3>trying to solve.

382
00:20:29.559 --> 00:20:33.559
<v Speaker 1>So yak shaver does it? Is it sort of an

383
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:36.519
<v Speaker 1>agent kind of thing where you give it permission to

384
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:41.880
<v Speaker 1>do stuff, you know, like an MCP word and why

385
00:20:41.880 --> 00:20:43.759
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't you just use an MCP.

386
00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:50.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, good question. So when Yakshava first was conceptualized, it

387
00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:54.000
<v Speaker 3>was sort of like, I think it's almost three years

388
00:20:54.039 --> 00:20:58.440
<v Speaker 3>ago now, so back then we didn't have mcps. We

389
00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.599
<v Speaker 3>had only just got you know, of custom GPTs that

390
00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:05.400
<v Speaker 3>can do tool calls and stuff like that. But yeah,

391
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:08.640
<v Speaker 3>the idea of an MCP was still very far off.

392
00:21:08.960 --> 00:21:14.039
<v Speaker 3>So back then the idea was instead of just you know,

393
00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:17.559
<v Speaker 3>letting the agent do whatever it wants because obviously models

394
00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:22.079
<v Speaker 3>weren't as reliable, then we would force it through a

395
00:21:22.160 --> 00:21:25.440
<v Speaker 3>pipeline where there's a couple of branching points where it

396
00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.599
<v Speaker 3>can either do this or do that. Is, are you

397
00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.240
<v Speaker 3>trying to report a PBI or send an email for example,

398
00:21:31.240 --> 00:21:34.640
<v Speaker 3>as one of those branches, and we make each.

399
00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:37.000
<v Speaker 1>Of the all right, So it's not you're not giving

400
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:39.799
<v Speaker 1>a total agency, You're you're guiding it.

401
00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:43.079
<v Speaker 3>As you say, exactly, That's that's sort of the the

402
00:21:43.160 --> 00:21:49.359
<v Speaker 3>Yakshav V one you have mentioned MCP. We are currently

403
00:21:49.519 --> 00:21:55.160
<v Speaker 3>developing a V two that will indeed use MCP servers.

404
00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:57.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay, video context, what's that?

405
00:21:58.279 --> 00:21:59.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly.

406
00:21:59.160 --> 00:22:04.319
<v Speaker 3>So the the main I think distinguishing factor between Yakshava

407
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:09.039
<v Speaker 3>and maybe firing up a you know, a MCP host

408
00:22:09.160 --> 00:22:12.079
<v Speaker 3>like clawed Desktop and just saying hey, go create an

409
00:22:12.119 --> 00:22:14.960
<v Speaker 3>item in the backlog is with Yakshava, we use a

410
00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.880
<v Speaker 3>video as the input. So what you'll do is, you know,

411
00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:22.200
<v Speaker 3>you'll share your screen and then you'll speak into your

412
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:24.680
<v Speaker 3>microphone and you'll say, hey, I'm just on this website.

413
00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:29.119
<v Speaker 3>There's a URL, and here's the problem that I've got

414
00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:33.640
<v Speaker 3>on the website, and then stop recording. And then basically

415
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:38.440
<v Speaker 3>the AI will obviously analyze the transcript, will analyze what

416
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:41.839
<v Speaker 3>it can from the screen that you shared, and then

417
00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:44.680
<v Speaker 3>interesting go ahead and you figure out where to put

418
00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:46.640
<v Speaker 3>it and how to format it all that stuff.

419
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.480
<v Speaker 1>So it's a little more powerful than something like play rate,

420
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:53.119
<v Speaker 1>which can go and navigate a site and all that stuff.

421
00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:55.799
<v Speaker 1>But what if you're not using a website, What if

422
00:22:55.799 --> 00:22:59.119
<v Speaker 1>you're using a piece of software. Right, yeah, exactly, use

423
00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:02.039
<v Speaker 1>a video screen. I'm sure it's brilliant.

424
00:23:01.640 --> 00:23:04.640
<v Speaker 3>That's right, And and some creative people have used it,

425
00:23:04.680 --> 00:23:10.400
<v Speaker 3>even completely unrelated to software, which was an unexpected use case.

426
00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:15.559
<v Speaker 3>You know, people like the building maintenance team when they find,

427
00:23:15.799 --> 00:23:19.440
<v Speaker 3>you know, like an issue with the coffee machine, for example. Yeah,

428
00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:23.880
<v Speaker 3>record a video of it and it gets filed off

429
00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:27.680
<v Speaker 3>in the appropriate Obviously we're using back clothes for the

430
00:23:27.759 --> 00:23:29.599
<v Speaker 3>office maintenance because Adam's the boss.

431
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:34.119
<v Speaker 2>But in the same way that people use GitHub for

432
00:23:34.160 --> 00:23:37.599
<v Speaker 2>recipes and things like, it's useful to have a coherent

433
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:39.599
<v Speaker 2>documentation chain for any of these things.

434
00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:42.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, chat GPT is good for that, and I find

435
00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:46.759
<v Speaker 1>that the chat GPT is more consumer oriented that way,

436
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.000
<v Speaker 1>Like I can take a video when I could say, hey,

437
00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:52.039
<v Speaker 1>what is what is this thing? You know, here's the

438
00:23:52.400 --> 00:23:54.960
<v Speaker 1>here's a couple of pictures I snapped at my laptop,

439
00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.599
<v Speaker 1>and it figures out what it is from that, here's

440
00:23:57.640 --> 00:23:59.759
<v Speaker 1>the problem I'm having. I take a screen, you know,

441
00:24:00.200 --> 00:24:03.079
<v Speaker 1>video of the screen, and it you know, can diagnose

442
00:24:03.119 --> 00:24:06.240
<v Speaker 1>problems that way. So, but what I don't like about

443
00:24:06.319 --> 00:24:09.720
<v Speaker 1>chat GPT is it doesn't understand the context of code

444
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:15.039
<v Speaker 1>right for example, and I don't want it to right Yeah.

445
00:24:14.759 --> 00:24:15.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah.

446
00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:17.920
<v Speaker 3>So one of the I guess main things that we're

447
00:24:17.960 --> 00:24:21.240
<v Speaker 3>doing with Yakshav, apart from the video input, is also

448
00:24:21.599 --> 00:24:26.720
<v Speaker 3>the sort of organizational consistency. So what you'll do with

449
00:24:26.839 --> 00:24:29.759
<v Speaker 3>Yakshav is set up you know, these are all my projects,

450
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:33.960
<v Speaker 3>These are all my people and who's associated with which project,

451
00:24:34.319 --> 00:24:36.240
<v Speaker 3>and these are the formats that I like to have.

452
00:24:36.319 --> 00:24:40.359
<v Speaker 3>My pbis created in all that sort of stuff, you'll

453
00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:42.640
<v Speaker 3>sort of define it and that way everyone who uses

454
00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:47.160
<v Speaker 3>it ends up with a consistent result, because obviously if

455
00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:50.279
<v Speaker 3>everyone just used chat GPT and recorded a video of

456
00:24:51.119 --> 00:24:54.279
<v Speaker 3>whatever with none of that consistency, then you're going to

457
00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:57.079
<v Speaker 3>end up with a completely different thing.

458
00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:01.079
<v Speaker 2>Every time. The world is full of abandoned video that's

459
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.359
<v Speaker 2>just sort of a normal thing, right, Like this is

460
00:25:03.680 --> 00:25:05.839
<v Speaker 2>I think the important part in all of these things.

461
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:07.799
<v Speaker 2>And I'm not going to point out they actuap per se,

462
00:25:07.920 --> 00:25:10.079
<v Speaker 2>but it's like what do you do with it after?

463
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:12.839
<v Speaker 2>Like where does it go? How does anybody ever look

464
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:16.799
<v Speaker 2>at it? Although you've always got the quality problem right,

465
00:25:16.839 --> 00:25:19.680
<v Speaker 2>like we've been you see this recurring theme with AI

466
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:24.759
<v Speaker 2>generated text in general. People are writing their corporate emails

467
00:25:24.839 --> 00:25:29.359
<v Speaker 2>using these tools and they're over long and over complicated,

468
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:32.640
<v Speaker 2>and some ways you're pushing the problem down the line,

469
00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:36.200
<v Speaker 2>like right, yeah, well, I guess this is the challenge

470
00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:38.440
<v Speaker 2>with anything related to these AI tools is like how

471
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:40.160
<v Speaker 2>do you make sure the thing you're making is concise?

472
00:25:40.200 --> 00:25:42.839
<v Speaker 2>That the next person down the line isn't being dumped

473
00:25:42.839 --> 00:25:44.200
<v Speaker 2>with a lot of unnecessary work.

474
00:25:44.279 --> 00:25:46.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, well, I'm glad you mentioned that actually, because one

475
00:25:46.680 --> 00:25:49.799
<v Speaker 3>of the other really cool things about yakshaber is not

476
00:25:49.880 --> 00:25:53.920
<v Speaker 3>only does it generate the PBI, but it also puts

477
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:57.799
<v Speaker 3>the link to the video that you recorded on the PBI.

478
00:25:58.920 --> 00:26:01.599
<v Speaker 3>So what it means is that the developer who picks

479
00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:05.440
<v Speaker 3>up that issue and works on it, they, if they want,

480
00:26:05.480 --> 00:26:09.759
<v Speaker 3>can just ignore all the AI generated PBI text and

481
00:26:09.799 --> 00:26:12.559
<v Speaker 3>just watch the video of the user explaining the problem

482
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:16.039
<v Speaker 3>and what do you mean when you see PBI backlog items?

483
00:26:16.079 --> 00:26:19.880
<v Speaker 3>So that's basically the of the bug. So if we've

484
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:23.440
<v Speaker 3>got a bug on a website, we've recorded a video

485
00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:27.720
<v Speaker 3>showing that bug, and then the developer who picks up

486
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:31.759
<v Speaker 3>that that issue to fix can watch the video.

487
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:37.079
<v Speaker 1>That's very Adam Cogan. He used to and maybe he

488
00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:41.599
<v Speaker 1>still does. But when we had issues with our website,

489
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:44.039
<v Speaker 1>we would get emails from Adam that had screenshots that

490
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:48.119
<v Speaker 1>were annotated with you know, things circled and whatever, and

491
00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:50.720
<v Speaker 1>you know this should be that, and that should be this,

492
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.000
<v Speaker 1>and yeah he's always been that way.

493
00:26:54.279 --> 00:26:58.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, yeah, But often there's heaps of details in

494
00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:02.079
<v Speaker 3>the video that has an extra being transcribed in the text, right,

495
00:27:02.160 --> 00:27:05.039
<v Speaker 3>and just being able to watch the video is it

496
00:27:05.079 --> 00:27:06.960
<v Speaker 3>makes it so much easier because you don't have to

497
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:09.160
<v Speaker 3>go back to the original reporter and say, hey, what

498
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:11.559
<v Speaker 3>are your reproduction steps? So you know all that sort

499
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:12.880
<v Speaker 3>of stuff. You can just watch the video.

500
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:15.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, anytime you can avoid having to go struggle with

501
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:19.480
<v Speaker 2>a reproduction is good. It's all about capturing that. But

502
00:27:19.519 --> 00:27:22.160
<v Speaker 2>it's interesting to think about this from a workflow perspective

503
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:24.519
<v Speaker 2>of what's the next thing We're trying to avoid shave

504
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:29.039
<v Speaker 2>in the act here? Right? So are these just distraction

505
00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:31.640
<v Speaker 2>items from a main thing? Because we also talked about

506
00:27:31.640 --> 00:27:33.240
<v Speaker 2>the fact that there's many little things you need to

507
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:35.319
<v Speaker 2>do before you can get on with the main thing,

508
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:38.599
<v Speaker 2>right right, So I guess it's some of this just

509
00:27:38.599 --> 00:27:41.039
<v Speaker 2>getting harnessing more people into the workflow so when they

510
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:42.599
<v Speaker 2>get those things done, you can move forward.

511
00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:46.319
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious about video transcription. I know that there are

512
00:27:46.359 --> 00:27:48.680
<v Speaker 1>tools out there that do it, but they're kind of

513
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:53.240
<v Speaker 1>the transcription is usually integrated into those things, right, Like

514
00:27:53.680 --> 00:27:56.920
<v Speaker 1>there's we use camtesa a little bit here, and I

515
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.200
<v Speaker 1>have maybe an older version.

516
00:27:58.319 --> 00:27:58.599
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

517
00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:02.880
<v Speaker 1>If the newer versions do trans but transcription rather, but

518
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.960
<v Speaker 1>that is a huge thing for me, so if I

519
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:11.440
<v Speaker 1>have meetings, I know that Zoom can generate transcriptions, but

520
00:28:12.200 --> 00:28:15.680
<v Speaker 1>just it would be really easy to to have a

521
00:28:15.720 --> 00:28:18.359
<v Speaker 1>desktop application though. You could just drop a video into

522
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:22.119
<v Speaker 1>it and it could transcribe the video. Yeah, for sure,

523
00:28:22.599 --> 00:28:24.519
<v Speaker 1>it seems like a simple thing. But then I could

524
00:28:24.519 --> 00:28:26.160
<v Speaker 1>look it up. I could look up what we're we

525
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:26.759
<v Speaker 1>talking about.

526
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:30.960
<v Speaker 3>You know that's true, And I mean that sounds like

527
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:34.279
<v Speaker 3>an interesting future feature that weak we can backlog. Maybe

528
00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:40.480
<v Speaker 3>we could actuate it right now and you your details

529
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:42.640
<v Speaker 3>about it will form the video, and then the developer

530
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:44.480
<v Speaker 3>who picks it up, we'll have all the context of

531
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:45.400
<v Speaker 3>why you wanted it, so that.

532
00:28:45.559 --> 00:28:47.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I like it. All right, take a break?

533
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:49.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, Well this seems like a good place

534
00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:51.039
<v Speaker 1>to take a break, so we'll be right back after

535
00:28:51.079 --> 00:28:56.279
<v Speaker 1>these very important messages. Did you know you can easily

536
00:28:56.319 --> 00:29:00.559
<v Speaker 1>migrate asp net web apps to Windows containers on Aws.

537
00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:05.279
<v Speaker 1>Use the app to Container tool to containerize your iis

538
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:10.119
<v Speaker 1>websites and deploy to AWS managed container services with or

539
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:14.200
<v Speaker 1>without Kubernetes. Find out more about app to Container at

540
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:19.240
<v Speaker 1>aws dot Amazon dot com. Slash dot Net, slash Modernize,

541
00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:25.599
<v Speaker 1>and we're back at starting at Rocks. I'm Carl Franklin.

542
00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:28.119
<v Speaker 1>It's my friend Richard Campbell. Hey, and this is Callum

543
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:32.319
<v Speaker 1>Simpson from SSW and he's down in Australia with Richard.

544
00:29:32.480 --> 00:29:35.799
<v Speaker 1>Right now, we're talking about Yakshaver and is this going

545
00:29:35.880 --> 00:29:38.119
<v Speaker 1>to be an open source product? I know it's a

546
00:29:38.160 --> 00:29:39.240
<v Speaker 1>desktop application.

547
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:42.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, So I mentioned earlier we've got sort of like

548
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:46.920
<v Speaker 3>a V one Yakshaver and a V two Yakshaver. So

549
00:29:47.000 --> 00:29:50.319
<v Speaker 3>the V one Yakshaver as it currently is is not

550
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:56.599
<v Speaker 3>open source. It's basically a cloud based pipeline subscriber before

551
00:29:56.640 --> 00:29:59.400
<v Speaker 3>where we sort of force everything through a pipeline with

552
00:29:59.480 --> 00:30:03.519
<v Speaker 3>a few brand options. But what we really wanted to

553
00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:09.559
<v Speaker 3>do with V two is to make it open source

554
00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:13.839
<v Speaker 3>desktop application. The reason why we wanted to make it

555
00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:16.480
<v Speaker 3>open source is because it's a desktop application that we

556
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:23.319
<v Speaker 3>expect users to install on their machine. So obviously it's

557
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:27.359
<v Speaker 3>not doing anything crazy. All it's doing is orchestrating MTP

558
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:30.680
<v Speaker 3>servers from the local machine. So why not make an

559
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:34.079
<v Speaker 3>open source so anyone can open the lead and see

560
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:34.920
<v Speaker 3>what's happening inside.

561
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:36.200
<v Speaker 1>It's really, really cool.

562
00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:39.160
<v Speaker 2>Now what are the key AI parts here? Is it

563
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:42.079
<v Speaker 2>just a transcriber? Like, what do you use an LM

564
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.960
<v Speaker 2>for their other generative ail? What's going on inside this out?

565
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:47.359
<v Speaker 3>Are we talking about the V two up with the

566
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:48.319
<v Speaker 3>MCP service?

567
00:30:48.519 --> 00:30:50.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, So basically.

568
00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:55.960
<v Speaker 3>You'll record your video well, as you said, transcribe the

569
00:30:56.440 --> 00:31:01.039
<v Speaker 3>text of the audio of that video, and then we

570
00:31:01.240 --> 00:31:05.359
<v Speaker 3>throw it over to the MCP orchestrator. And basically what

571
00:31:05.559 --> 00:31:10.119
<v Speaker 3>that is doing is saying, all right, here's the transcript

572
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:13.599
<v Speaker 3>that the user has submitted. Here's the system prompt. So

573
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:16.720
<v Speaker 3>inside yak Shava you can sort of define how you

574
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:19.920
<v Speaker 3>want it to work. We leave that sort of up

575
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:22.880
<v Speaker 3>to the user, but you would have I guess an

576
00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:27.839
<v Speaker 3>organizational default that you can then customize if you so wish,

577
00:31:28.720 --> 00:31:32.440
<v Speaker 3>and then Yakshava will basically take that and then start

578
00:31:32.599 --> 00:31:35.680
<v Speaker 3>using the MCP servers that you made available to it

579
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:39.559
<v Speaker 3>to get through whatever it is you're trying to do

580
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:43.000
<v Speaker 3>with that transcript. So, for example, you could give yak

581
00:31:43.079 --> 00:31:47.640
<v Speaker 3>Shava the GitHub MCP server and you could give it

582
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:54.000
<v Speaker 3>instructions to say, you know, figure out which backlog or

583
00:31:54.119 --> 00:31:57.960
<v Speaker 3>project I'm talking about in my transcript, put this issue

584
00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:02.200
<v Speaker 3>in that backlog. Surely you include the link to the

585
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:08.039
<v Speaker 3>YouTube video in that issue and use whatever whatever PBI

586
00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:11.400
<v Speaker 3>template is available in that repo as well. Uh, and

587
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:14.640
<v Speaker 3>when when approaches it is it will then use you know,

588
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:18.400
<v Speaker 3>the GitHub MCP to search all the projects you've got available,

589
00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:21.039
<v Speaker 3>figure out all right based on that transcription, I think

590
00:32:21.079 --> 00:32:24.680
<v Speaker 3>he's talking about that one, and then you know, search

591
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:30.000
<v Speaker 3>the that repo for the templates, find the right template,

592
00:32:30.079 --> 00:32:32.759
<v Speaker 3>maybe have one template for reporting a bug, one template

593
00:32:32.839 --> 00:32:35.960
<v Speaker 3>for creating a feature request, that sort of thing, and

594
00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:38.759
<v Speaker 3>then fill out that template. And then we also pass

595
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:42.359
<v Speaker 3>it originally when you've recorded your video we uploaded to YouTube,

596
00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:44.480
<v Speaker 3>and we pass it in the link to the YouTube video,

597
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:48.759
<v Speaker 3>so it can then embed that that YouTube video in

598
00:32:48.920 --> 00:32:50.119
<v Speaker 3>the issue as well as.

599
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:50.359
<v Speaker 2>Part of it.

600
00:32:50.720 --> 00:32:53.480
<v Speaker 3>So start getting issues with videos, which is pretty cool,

601
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.240
<v Speaker 3>that's right. And we also we also give it a

602
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:02.359
<v Speaker 3>couple of built in MCP tools as well. So we

603
00:33:02.519 --> 00:33:06.759
<v Speaker 3>have one tool that basically says, grab a screenshot at

604
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:10.480
<v Speaker 3>the specified timestamp, because when we give it the transcript,

605
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:12.839
<v Speaker 3>it's you know, it's got all the time stamps of

606
00:33:13.240 --> 00:33:15.640
<v Speaker 3>when each bit of text was said, so it can

607
00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:18.359
<v Speaker 3>sort of figure out what the key moment or moments

608
00:33:18.519 --> 00:33:21.319
<v Speaker 3>are in the transcript, you get a you got a

609
00:33:21.359 --> 00:33:25.440
<v Speaker 3>thumbnail maker based on context, that's right, and then we've

610
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:28.720
<v Speaker 3>got another tool that takes that well, can take that

611
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:34.000
<v Speaker 3>screenshot and then you use a multimodal LM to analyze

612
00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:37.519
<v Speaker 3>it so it can sort of grab some context out

613
00:33:37.559 --> 00:33:39.400
<v Speaker 3>of that screenshot as well. So in that way it's

614
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:41.640
<v Speaker 3>sort of able to analyze the video as well as

615
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:42.920
<v Speaker 3>what you've said.

616
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:47.319
<v Speaker 2>It's very cool. I'm also thinking just de duplication is often,

617
00:33:47.960 --> 00:33:49.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, you build these tools so it's easy for

618
00:33:49.759 --> 00:33:51.759
<v Speaker 2>people to report problems. They're going to report a lot

619
00:33:51.799 --> 00:33:53.960
<v Speaker 2>of problems, and they're off going to report the scene problems.

620
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, for sure.

621
00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:57.440
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, that's that's one of the by the way,

622
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:00.480
<v Speaker 3>one of the reasons why we really wanted to transition

623
00:34:00.640 --> 00:34:07.720
<v Speaker 3>to this V two MCP approach because a lot of

624
00:34:07.759 --> 00:34:10.639
<v Speaker 3>people have a lot of requests like that, you know,

625
00:34:11.320 --> 00:34:14.199
<v Speaker 3>and all you have to do to do it with

626
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:16.320
<v Speaker 3>the new world is you just say, and you're prompt

627
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.760
<v Speaker 3>before you create a GitHub issue, make sure you search

628
00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:23.440
<v Speaker 3>for any duplicate issues that already exist, and if they do,

629
00:34:24.119 --> 00:34:26.719
<v Speaker 3>add this as a comment instead of creating a new one, right,

630
00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:29.639
<v Speaker 3>and yeah, that way it's just a prompt update instead

631
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:31.519
<v Speaker 3>of having to go back to our pipeline and adding

632
00:34:31.519 --> 00:34:34.800
<v Speaker 3>all these extra branches to handle different cases.

633
00:34:35.000 --> 00:34:36.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, and it's tougher to get people to do that

634
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:38.320
<v Speaker 2>because it's way easier to just create a new issue

635
00:34:38.360 --> 00:34:40.639
<v Speaker 2>that searched you existing ones. So yeah, you can get

636
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:42.679
<v Speaker 2>the tool to do that for us, Thank goodness for that.

637
00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:45.599
<v Speaker 1>Well, but you have to put that in the system

638
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:47.760
<v Speaker 1>prompt you know, that has to be a rule, right,

639
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:52.079
<v Speaker 1>that's right, don't create new issues unless there's nothing there already.

640
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:56.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you think it's actually original. Yeah, it's really interesting.

641
00:34:57.079 --> 00:35:01.199
<v Speaker 2>Another you know, we're talking about how general VII is

642
00:35:01.280 --> 00:35:03.800
<v Speaker 2>coming into the different aspects of software development. This is

643
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:08.599
<v Speaker 2>an aspect of generating issues intelligently and trying to get

644
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:11.039
<v Speaker 2>as much information to the developer as possible, whether it's

645
00:35:11.079 --> 00:35:13.239
<v Speaker 2>for a bugfix or a feature. Of course it's free.

646
00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:15.880
<v Speaker 3>Course, Yeah that's right. Yeah, So I was going to say,

647
00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:19.800
<v Speaker 3>originally we with the V one solution. This was another

648
00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:23.599
<v Speaker 3>pain of the V one solution. We integrate with GitHub

649
00:35:23.880 --> 00:35:28.280
<v Speaker 3>and as your DevOps, but the majority of people we

650
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:32.039
<v Speaker 3>spoke to about it, they didn't actually use those tools.

651
00:35:32.079 --> 00:35:35.159
<v Speaker 3>They use something like Gira or whatever some other tool,

652
00:35:35.800 --> 00:35:39.119
<v Speaker 3>and it was it was just too hard to keep

653
00:35:39.239 --> 00:35:42.119
<v Speaker 3>adding all these because you know, every time we create

654
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:45.119
<v Speaker 3>one of these branching bits of logic in the V

655
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:48.800
<v Speaker 3>one we had to also reproduce that same you know,

656
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:52.760
<v Speaker 3>the same actions or set of actions in each of

657
00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:56.519
<v Speaker 3>the backlogs that we're integrating with so GitHub Badge develops.

658
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:59.920
<v Speaker 3>We didn't want to have to keep doing that with Gira, Zender,

659
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:02.840
<v Speaker 3>whatever other tool people are using. So that was yet

660
00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:07.599
<v Speaker 3>another argument why we moved to MVP because with MCP

661
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:11.039
<v Speaker 3>you can even have exactly the same prompt, but if

662
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:14.360
<v Speaker 3>you've got a different system that you're using for your

663
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.119
<v Speaker 3>backlog or you have to flop the MCP server and

664
00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:21.679
<v Speaker 3>as long as it has a vaguely similar action available,

665
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:23.119
<v Speaker 3>it'll work just fine.

666
00:36:23.159 --> 00:36:26.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, way more scalable. That's classic V two stuff is

667
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:30.039
<v Speaker 2>creating the rate set of interfaces for the next iterations

668
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:31.679
<v Speaker 2>where people want to use it in more places.

669
00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:34.360
<v Speaker 1>I know you guys had some discussions on the back

670
00:36:34.519 --> 00:36:37.519
<v Speaker 1>end about whether or not it's a good idea to

671
00:36:37.639 --> 00:36:42.119
<v Speaker 1>give people all this freedom and flexibility. So what was

672
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.639
<v Speaker 1>that discussion like and would you come out of it with.

673
00:36:45.920 --> 00:36:49.800
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think it's still sort of an open question

674
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:54.199
<v Speaker 3>that we haven't got an answer to, because I think

675
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:59.559
<v Speaker 3>it could potentially be detrimental. If you give people full

676
00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:02.800
<v Speaker 3>freedom to do anything, Suddenly they're sort of swamped by

677
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:07.320
<v Speaker 3>choices and things they can customize, and they end up

678
00:37:08.199 --> 00:37:11.639
<v Speaker 3>not knowing how to best use it. Whereas if you

679
00:37:11.719 --> 00:37:15.440
<v Speaker 3>sort of force them down a path, you may not

680
00:37:15.559 --> 00:37:17.559
<v Speaker 3>be the optimal path, but at least they're forced down

681
00:37:17.639 --> 00:37:19.280
<v Speaker 3>the path and they'll figure out how to use it.

682
00:37:20.039 --> 00:37:22.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, like some workflow templates or something like that you

683
00:37:22.840 --> 00:37:25.320
<v Speaker 1>can choose from exactly instead of just giving people a

684
00:37:25.360 --> 00:37:28.440
<v Speaker 1>blank slate. Also, if you think about it, you know,

685
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:32.840
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of irresponsible to just slap some MCP service

686
00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:36.599
<v Speaker 1>together and give them full agency to go do whatever

687
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:40.159
<v Speaker 1>you would normally do. I mean that can open up

688
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:43.559
<v Speaker 1>a huge can of worms. Oh yeah, cans and cans

689
00:37:43.639 --> 00:37:44.519
<v Speaker 1>and cans of worms.

690
00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:48.639
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely, you really need to be careful, So, I mean,

691
00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:52.000
<v Speaker 3>there is a lot of power. With power obviously comes responsibility.

692
00:37:52.079 --> 00:37:54.480
<v Speaker 2>I've heard that you need to be here.

693
00:37:55.079 --> 00:37:59.639
<v Speaker 3>You need to be careful about, you know, surfacing untrusted

694
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:04.280
<v Speaker 3>third party data to MVP servers that can perform you know,

695
00:38:04.559 --> 00:38:09.480
<v Speaker 3>potentially destructive actions is actually sort of a running joke

696
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:13.480
<v Speaker 3>in the actually the dev team is when someone's recording

697
00:38:14.239 --> 00:38:17.320
<v Speaker 3>a video to be processed, someone in the background will

698
00:38:17.360 --> 00:38:20.320
<v Speaker 3>shout out and delete the whole repo while you're there. Yeah,

699
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:25.960
<v Speaker 3>we need to build in some safeguards to prevent.

700
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:27.199
<v Speaker 2>That from there.

701
00:38:27.280 --> 00:38:30.760
<v Speaker 1>Used to be the running joke on dart net Rocks

702
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:34.800
<v Speaker 1>Alexa delete on my no, not you don't listen to

703
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:38.119
<v Speaker 1>me exactly. She's not quite sure how to help me

704
00:38:38.159 --> 00:38:42.000
<v Speaker 1>with that. But you know, a delete my account, you

705
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:45.280
<v Speaker 1>know that kind of thing. Or send five hundred pounds

706
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:46.760
<v Speaker 1>of concrete to Richard Campbell.

707
00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, still trying to clean up that concrete. Thanks for that.

708
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:57.639
<v Speaker 2>Very good. But you know, we even that office conversation

709
00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:01.760
<v Speaker 2>with more and more aishing. Our role as shepherds of AI,

710
00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:06.480
<v Speaker 2>goodness knows, is to constrain it, to put parameters around

711
00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:09.000
<v Speaker 2>each of these things, and so same thing here. You

712
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:14.480
<v Speaker 2>want to focus on particular issue, particular capabilities, and keep

713
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:16.679
<v Speaker 2>limits on all the things that it can do so

714
00:39:16.760 --> 00:39:18.880
<v Speaker 2>that it does focus on the direction you wanted to

715
00:39:18.920 --> 00:39:19.079
<v Speaker 2>go in.

716
00:39:19.400 --> 00:39:23.280
<v Speaker 3>The other good thing about using MCP rather than a pipeline,

717
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:27.519
<v Speaker 3>I think is that every action that the MCP service

718
00:39:27.599 --> 00:39:30.400
<v Speaker 3>takes on your behalf is sort of done in your

719
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:36.159
<v Speaker 3>name because you're connecting directly with your own or credentials

720
00:39:36.320 --> 00:39:37.840
<v Speaker 3>or whatever if you use and get MVP.

721
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:39.800
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, you need to.

722
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:42.199
<v Speaker 3>Take your responsibility for everything that it does. You can't

723
00:39:42.280 --> 00:39:46.000
<v Speaker 3>just give it a random video and then cross your

724
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:47.079
<v Speaker 3>fingers and hope it works.

725
00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:50.159
<v Speaker 2>So that Yeah, Well you bring up a great point

726
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:52.199
<v Speaker 2>because there's lots of conversation about I think this was

727
00:39:52.320 --> 00:39:55.960
<v Speaker 2>just at Ignite where they are setting identities for agents,

728
00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:59.840
<v Speaker 2>and that's almost like giving you an excuse lack of culpability.

729
00:40:00.639 --> 00:40:02.920
<v Speaker 2>All the software did It wasn't me. It's like, dude,

730
00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:07.320
<v Speaker 2>it was your prompt the software. We may call them agents,

731
00:40:07.360 --> 00:40:09.599
<v Speaker 2>but how much agency do we want them? They're working

732
00:40:09.679 --> 00:40:10.360
<v Speaker 2>on our behalf.

733
00:40:10.679 --> 00:40:12.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a constant theme.

734
00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:15.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, I just feel like these are unsolved problems. Like

735
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:18.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm appreciating which the work you guys are doing callum

736
00:40:18.280 --> 00:40:21.239
<v Speaker 2>just because you are making these experiments and using them

737
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:24.880
<v Speaker 2>yourselves and finding out like what what works, what doesn't,

738
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:26.800
<v Speaker 2>what the limits are on all this are because we

739
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:29.559
<v Speaker 2>I think we're a few years away from really nailing

740
00:40:29.639 --> 00:40:31.159
<v Speaker 2>down what these new workflows look.

741
00:40:31.079 --> 00:40:33.000
<v Speaker 3>Like, Yeah, that's right, an experiment.

742
00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:36.880
<v Speaker 1>At this point, you have some other products AI products

743
00:40:36.920 --> 00:40:38.480
<v Speaker 1>that you're working on at ss W.

744
00:40:38.679 --> 00:40:42.800
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, we've got SSW Eagle I okay, which is

745
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:49.280
<v Speaker 3>a sort of a dystopian email analysis tool that basically

746
00:40:50.559 --> 00:40:53.880
<v Speaker 3>checks all of your emails and makes for sure that

747
00:40:54.119 --> 00:40:56.480
<v Speaker 3>you are sort of you know, adhering to all the

748
00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:00.679
<v Speaker 3>SSW rules and and sort of game fires that a

749
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:02.719
<v Speaker 3>little bit as well. So you have like a leaderboard

750
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:07.920
<v Speaker 3>who sends the most you know, checked by email, and you.

751
00:41:07.960 --> 00:41:11.039
<v Speaker 1>Know, so it checks outgoing emails, not incoming, because that

752
00:41:11.079 --> 00:41:13.119
<v Speaker 1>would be a huge security risk.

753
00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:16.679
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Well, obviously you opt into it, right, So it's

754
00:41:16.760 --> 00:41:20.079
<v Speaker 3>not just checking any random email.

755
00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:24.320
<v Speaker 1>You have it checking outgoing emails. Yeah, correct, that's what

756
00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:26.079
<v Speaker 1>it sounds like, but not incoming.

757
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:29.440
<v Speaker 3>Well, it's checking emails that you send to other people

758
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:32.800
<v Speaker 3>inside the company, right, So it's not just paying any random.

759
00:41:32.719 --> 00:41:35.360
<v Speaker 2>It's eternal email. That's good. We did a Cogan rules

760
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:38.840
<v Speaker 2>show in two thousand and six. That was fun. I

761
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:43.400
<v Speaker 2>remember that. Yeah, well, and then you know he's out

762
00:41:43.400 --> 00:41:46.079
<v Speaker 2>of serious about that. The rules continue to this day.

763
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:47.800
<v Speaker 2>I think they're very in the middle of a migration

764
00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:50.440
<v Speaker 2>of them right now, if I recall from the brainstorming

765
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:53.360
<v Speaker 2>session right there, Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So this, this

766
00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:55.400
<v Speaker 2>is the idea of an LLM being able to part

767
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:57.599
<v Speaker 2>stuff and saying, are you is this compliant? Are you

768
00:41:57.679 --> 00:42:01.079
<v Speaker 2>following the rule set? Maybe making suggestions for what's incorrect? Yeah,

769
00:42:01.199 --> 00:42:01.840
<v Speaker 2>that's very cool.

770
00:42:02.000 --> 00:42:06.800
<v Speaker 3>Interesting, Yeah, that could be coming soon. The other brains

771
00:42:06.800 --> 00:42:08.920
<v Speaker 3>sewing idea, the one that I was working on was

772
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.719
<v Speaker 3>sort of an AI that constantly scans your site and

773
00:42:14.920 --> 00:42:18.480
<v Speaker 3>looks for problems and sort of reports them before someone

774
00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:19.559
<v Speaker 3>needs to actualy them.

775
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:19.960
<v Speaker 2>Right.

776
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:21.320
<v Speaker 3>I thought that was a cool idea.

777
00:42:21.480 --> 00:42:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Smart site testing, yow. Yeah, could we build out it?

778
00:42:25.880 --> 00:42:29.559
<v Speaker 2>Can we build out a tool that was really good

779
00:42:29.599 --> 00:42:33.079
<v Speaker 2>at putting wrong things into text boxes?

780
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:33.960
<v Speaker 3>You know?

781
00:42:35.320 --> 00:42:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Did you know those test guys, the ones that you know,

782
00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:40.760
<v Speaker 2>this is where I entered negative forty three? The all

783
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:41.440
<v Speaker 2>thing blew up?

784
00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:43.800
<v Speaker 3>That's right, that's kind of test is the one that

785
00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:47.719
<v Speaker 3>just ignores the instructions and does whatever they want. Yeah,

786
00:42:47.840 --> 00:42:49.920
<v Speaker 3>I'm sure if you get a play right MCP to

787
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:55.280
<v Speaker 3>just prompt it, you're a crazy person who ignores instructions

788
00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:56.480
<v Speaker 3>and does whatever they want.

789
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:02.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, the breeze I don't want to feed you an

790
00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:06.719
<v Speaker 2>LM is ignore instructions like that just seems disturbing to me. Yeah,

791
00:43:06.880 --> 00:43:10.320
<v Speaker 2>that's risky. Yeah, absolute trouble, without a doubt. How many

792
00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:12.400
<v Speaker 2>folks worked on on yacual what it take to get

793
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:13.000
<v Speaker 2>into this point.

794
00:43:13.400 --> 00:43:17.360
<v Speaker 3>We've got a team of about ten. Now, they're not

795
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:21.440
<v Speaker 3>all working obviously constantly, because you know, when we've got

796
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:23.960
<v Speaker 3>client engagements up, go off and do that. So we've

797
00:43:24.000 --> 00:43:27.039
<v Speaker 3>got sort of ten coming going. I think the core team,

798
00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:33.320
<v Speaker 3>you could say, maybe five people working on it. But

799
00:43:33.599 --> 00:43:39.000
<v Speaker 3>one of the very interesting things we've noticed recently is well,

800
00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:42.199
<v Speaker 3>I'm sort of operating as the product owner of Yakhava,

801
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:47.360
<v Speaker 3>and so as the product owner, I've been trying out AI,

802
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:54.840
<v Speaker 3>like completely AI driven development with not even looking at

803
00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:58.159
<v Speaker 3>the code, just to see is that a viable approach?

804
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:02.119
<v Speaker 2>So vibe coding I hate the phrase, but this.

805
00:44:02.280 --> 00:44:06.320
<v Speaker 3>Is exactly vibe coding. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the concept

806
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:10.199
<v Speaker 3>of vibe coding is interesting. I mean, people have different

807
00:44:10.280 --> 00:44:15.000
<v Speaker 3>definitions of it, right. Some people say, anytime you use

808
00:44:15.079 --> 00:44:19.519
<v Speaker 3>AI to write code, that's vibe coding, whereas others would say, well,

809
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:23.239
<v Speaker 3>it's only if you you only talk to the agent

810
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:24.440
<v Speaker 3>and you don't look at the output.

811
00:44:24.559 --> 00:44:27.559
<v Speaker 2>Sure, so I can say, but that's what Kapothi said

812
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:29.800
<v Speaker 2>at the time, right when he came up with the.

813
00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:34.519
<v Speaker 3>Phrase exactly exactly, but the terms being corrupted. I think

814
00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:36.320
<v Speaker 3>so a lot of people just say anytime you use

815
00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:38.679
<v Speaker 3>AI to write code, you're vibe coding. I don't think

816
00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:40.599
<v Speaker 3>that's good at all. Yeah, and I think it's actually

817
00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:44.559
<v Speaker 3>important to draw that distinction because, like we just said,

818
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:46.920
<v Speaker 3>you know, you need to take responsibility for the code

819
00:44:46.920 --> 00:44:51.239
<v Speaker 3>that you generate if it's generated under your name. So so.

820
00:44:51.800 --> 00:44:54.679
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, So the concept is, as product owner of

821
00:44:54.760 --> 00:44:58.239
<v Speaker 3>yak Shav, I'm just vibe coding the features that I

822
00:44:58.320 --> 00:45:01.880
<v Speaker 3>want to see in the tool, and then rather than

823
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:06.039
<v Speaker 3>giving the team an issue that says, hey, I want

824
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:10.880
<v Speaker 3>this feature in Yakhava, I will basically vibe code the

825
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:14.800
<v Speaker 3>feature itself and then give them the poll request, and

826
00:45:14.920 --> 00:45:18.039
<v Speaker 3>then their job instead of implement the feature is just

827
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:19.599
<v Speaker 3>review the poll request.

828
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:22.199
<v Speaker 2>Figure out how badly you've gotten the LM to mess

829
00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:23.199
<v Speaker 2>things up exactly.

830
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:29.760
<v Speaker 3>And I mean obviously that sometimes it does a terrible job,

831
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:33.199
<v Speaker 3>but I think more and more it does a good job,

832
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:38.679
<v Speaker 3>particularly at tasks that are sort of well constrained or

833
00:45:38.840 --> 00:45:42.880
<v Speaker 3>are you an implementation that is along the lines of

834
00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:45.719
<v Speaker 3>some codes that's already written, but just doing a slightly

835
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:48.559
<v Speaker 3>different thing, you know what I mean. So there's a

836
00:45:48.599 --> 00:45:52.119
<v Speaker 3>big difference between creating a new, completely new piece of

837
00:45:52.199 --> 00:45:55.440
<v Speaker 3>code that may have got some new architectural components and

838
00:45:55.519 --> 00:45:58.519
<v Speaker 3>that sort of thing that me sounds rather risky to

839
00:45:58.639 --> 00:46:00.760
<v Speaker 3>just let AI do whatever it wants. But if you've

840
00:46:00.760 --> 00:46:02.719
<v Speaker 3>already got all that set up and now you're just saying,

841
00:46:03.320 --> 00:46:07.920
<v Speaker 3>add another you know, vertical slice on this project and

842
00:46:08.079 --> 00:46:10.079
<v Speaker 3>just copy the one that's already there, I think it

843
00:46:10.159 --> 00:46:11.280
<v Speaker 3>does a much better job of that.

844
00:46:11.480 --> 00:46:14.800
<v Speaker 2>It does speak to this idea that more mature software

845
00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:18.800
<v Speaker 2>will be easier to maintain with these tools than very

846
00:46:18.920 --> 00:46:22.400
<v Speaker 2>new software. On you know, the wen Star, as long

847
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:25.119
<v Speaker 2>as it's it's good, you know, as long as it's

848
00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:27.320
<v Speaker 2>written well, right, right, So it's got to be written

849
00:46:27.360 --> 00:46:28.599
<v Speaker 2>well in the first place.

850
00:46:28.480 --> 00:46:32.159
<v Speaker 3>Because it's going to give you more crap, I imagine.

851
00:46:32.239 --> 00:46:35.079
<v Speaker 2>I also wonder if if the success of this has

852
00:46:35.119 --> 00:46:37.280
<v Speaker 2>more to do with the scope of the feature or

853
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:38.639
<v Speaker 2>the quality of the prompt.

854
00:46:38.920 --> 00:46:43.000
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, good, good question, And I think that in my

855
00:46:43.119 --> 00:46:48.239
<v Speaker 3>experience anyway, a lot of people have like when when

856
00:46:48.280 --> 00:46:50.039
<v Speaker 3>they try to do something with AI. You know, the

857
00:46:50.119 --> 00:46:53.679
<v Speaker 3>people who I think get bad results. Some people seem

858
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:57.519
<v Speaker 3>to get bad results even though they're fantastic developers. You know,

859
00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:00.199
<v Speaker 3>they'll try to use AI and they'll get a a

860
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:02.000
<v Speaker 3>bad result and then they say, well, you know this

861
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:04.320
<v Speaker 3>AI sucks another tool myself.

862
00:47:04.400 --> 00:47:04.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly.

863
00:47:05.159 --> 00:47:09.559
<v Speaker 3>But from my perspective, I always try to think, if

864
00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:15.360
<v Speaker 3>I've used AI and the result was substandard, rather than

865
00:47:15.400 --> 00:47:17.880
<v Speaker 3>blaming the AI, I want to blame myself, and I

866
00:47:17.960 --> 00:47:20.840
<v Speaker 3>want to think, how could I how could I prompt

867
00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:23.760
<v Speaker 3>it better? How could I give the right context or

868
00:47:23.880 --> 00:47:27.400
<v Speaker 3>better prompt or whatever to get the better output next time.

869
00:47:27.719 --> 00:47:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, let's say that's the old adage it is a

870
00:47:30.039 --> 00:47:31.719
<v Speaker 2>poor craftsman that blames as tools.

871
00:47:31.840 --> 00:47:35.639
<v Speaker 3>That's right, good point, And yeah, so that's something that

872
00:47:35.719 --> 00:47:39.320
<v Speaker 3>I'm heavily leaning into is figuring out how we can

873
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:43.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, make this process of AI generated code not

874
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:47.440
<v Speaker 3>vibe coding, to be clear, because we're drawing a distinction there,

875
00:47:48.119 --> 00:47:52.360
<v Speaker 3>but generating code with AI that we actually care about

876
00:47:52.480 --> 00:47:54.880
<v Speaker 3>and that's going to form a part of our long

877
00:47:55.000 --> 00:47:59.880
<v Speaker 3>term code base. How do we actually go about doing

878
00:48:00.119 --> 00:48:02.920
<v Speaker 3>that in the best way. And obviously, to start with

879
00:48:03.079 --> 00:48:08.039
<v Speaker 3>it takes longer, probably than writing the code yourself quite

880
00:48:08.079 --> 00:48:10.039
<v Speaker 3>but I think in the long term, once you've got

881
00:48:10.119 --> 00:48:13.039
<v Speaker 3>your systems in place, you know, you've sort of set

882
00:48:13.119 --> 00:48:16.000
<v Speaker 3>that up once and then you can use it infinitely

883
00:48:16.079 --> 00:48:19.480
<v Speaker 3>many times. But but yeah, so it's that reason that

884
00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:21.800
<v Speaker 3>I've also been doing this vibe code experiment just to

885
00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:24.760
<v Speaker 3>see what is the difference between these two different approaches

886
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:27.760
<v Speaker 3>and what goes wrong when you're VIBE coding. What are

887
00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:30.480
<v Speaker 3>the problems that AI has and then how do we

888
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:33.519
<v Speaker 3>try to address them so that we can do a

889
00:48:33.559 --> 00:48:34.000
<v Speaker 3>better job.

890
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:36.719
<v Speaker 2>So I see three categories of code. Then that you

891
00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:40.239
<v Speaker 2>have handwritten code, you have AI syst a code, and

892
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:44.320
<v Speaker 2>then you have AI generated code. And you know how

893
00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:47.039
<v Speaker 2>different are those things? How can they support each other?

894
00:48:47.760 --> 00:48:47.920
<v Speaker 3>You know?

895
00:48:48.039 --> 00:48:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Where is where is it? I think we're still trying

896
00:48:49.880 --> 00:48:51.719
<v Speaker 2>to figure out where the human needs to step in

897
00:48:51.880 --> 00:48:56.360
<v Speaker 2>more and where automation it can work fairly responsibly on it.

898
00:48:56.599 --> 00:49:00.679
<v Speaker 3>That's right, I think it really the human needs to

899
00:49:02.079 --> 00:49:05.000
<v Speaker 3>If you're delivering a piece of software for a client,

900
00:49:05.559 --> 00:49:09.199
<v Speaker 3>the human obviously is the person who the client is

901
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:13.400
<v Speaker 3>engaging to deliver that software. You need to take responsibility

902
00:49:13.519 --> 00:49:17.400
<v Speaker 3>for you know, understanding the problem and ensuring that the

903
00:49:17.519 --> 00:49:21.400
<v Speaker 3>software that is delivered meets all the requirements and does

904
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:23.800
<v Speaker 3>everything the client needs, but also does all the technical

905
00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:25.960
<v Speaker 3>things that the client doesn't even know that they need.

906
00:49:25.920 --> 00:49:30.519
<v Speaker 2>But they do. The client presumes security, probably without even

907
00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:35.199
<v Speaker 2>articulating it, that's right. You know, client presumes reliability also

908
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:37.519
<v Speaker 2>without caculating it. Like we've got to make sure those

909
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:38.599
<v Speaker 2>things exist, that's right.

910
00:49:38.679 --> 00:49:42.639
<v Speaker 3>And if we just mindlessly generate something with AI and

911
00:49:42.719 --> 00:49:45.360
<v Speaker 3>don't even look at it and then yeah, okay, it

912
00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:48.559
<v Speaker 3>does most of the functionality you wanted, but it's all

913
00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:50.960
<v Speaker 3>these gaping security flaws, all this sort of things. That's

914
00:49:51.239 --> 00:49:53.639
<v Speaker 3>that's you know, that's a problem for you that you

915
00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:56.360
<v Speaker 3>haven't taken responsibility for what you have delivered.

916
00:49:56.880 --> 00:49:59.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's what That's what responsible detment looks like. That's right.

917
00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:03.400
<v Speaker 3>But you can totally be responsible with your delivery and

918
00:50:03.639 --> 00:50:06.800
<v Speaker 3>also use AI to do everything. It's just that you

919
00:50:06.920 --> 00:50:10.360
<v Speaker 3>need to be taking responsibility for it right ultimately, so

920
00:50:10.599 --> 00:50:11.159
<v Speaker 3>do the right thing.

921
00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:13.679
<v Speaker 2>So as a product owner, I see a shape of

922
00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:16.039
<v Speaker 2>a V two, is your stuff going to a V three?

923
00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:18.719
<v Speaker 2>Ben Yette like, what's the future of the ACTUAV? Look like?

924
00:50:18.840 --> 00:50:23.039
<v Speaker 3>Good question? I mean, I see after after V two.

925
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:26.800
<v Speaker 3>Obviously V two we should be rolling out fairly soon.

926
00:50:26.880 --> 00:50:31.360
<v Speaker 3>Hopefully V two is all about MCP servers. I see

927
00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:37.320
<v Speaker 3>potentially V three is going to be Yakshava actually writing

928
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:42.800
<v Speaker 3>writing code sort of like disposable code in order to

929
00:50:43.039 --> 00:50:46.920
<v Speaker 3>achieve tasks, rather than just using MCP servers.

930
00:50:47.880 --> 00:50:51.239
<v Speaker 1>Disposable code like writing PowerShell scripts and then.

931
00:50:51.199 --> 00:50:52.440
<v Speaker 3>Executing that kind of thing.

932
00:50:52.599 --> 00:50:52.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

933
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:57.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so like in integrating with whatever it's trying to

934
00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:01.599
<v Speaker 3>integrate with, it could also be using the MCP servers,

935
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:06.239
<v Speaker 3>but you know, writing code to perform the tools in

936
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:09.679
<v Speaker 3>MCP rather than just using MCP because obviously one of

937
00:51:09.760 --> 00:51:12.920
<v Speaker 3>the issues with one of the issues with MCP is

938
00:51:13.480 --> 00:51:15.719
<v Speaker 3>you know, if you give it a whole heap of tools,

939
00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:20.039
<v Speaker 3>that's just eating up a bunch of context that probably

940
00:51:20.079 --> 00:51:23.519
<v Speaker 3>doesn't need to be eaten up. Although I do suspect

941
00:51:23.559 --> 00:51:26.320
<v Speaker 3>in the future we'll get better MCP management, Like you

942
00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:29.159
<v Speaker 3>might have some sort of middle layer that says, here's

943
00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:32.639
<v Speaker 3>here's the prompt, here's on my tools. Just surface a

944
00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:35.239
<v Speaker 3>couple of tools that seem like they need to be used,

945
00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:36.159
<v Speaker 3>and that sort of thing.

946
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:40.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a pretty pretty raw design at this point too, right,

947
00:51:40.559 --> 00:51:44.280
<v Speaker 2>Like it's all of this stuff is so crazy new. Yeah.

948
00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:45.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's an exciting space to be in.

949
00:51:46.280 --> 00:51:48.840
<v Speaker 1>So what's next? What's next for you? Personally?

950
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:54.039
<v Speaker 3>For me, well, I think I continue to use AI

951
00:51:54.280 --> 00:52:00.599
<v Speaker 3>to deliver projects. You know, I always felt that my

952
00:52:00.719 --> 00:52:04.440
<v Speaker 3>favorite part of my job was the part where I

953
00:52:04.559 --> 00:52:08.639
<v Speaker 3>get to talk to the client, understand the problem and

954
00:52:08.960 --> 00:52:12.400
<v Speaker 3>design a solution and understand all the different trade offs

955
00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:14.599
<v Speaker 3>in all the decisions that are making in that solution,

956
00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:17.159
<v Speaker 3>and then you know, talk to the client figure out

957
00:52:17.199 --> 00:52:19.280
<v Speaker 3>what is the best solution for them. And then the

958
00:52:19.360 --> 00:52:22.079
<v Speaker 3>actual part where I write the code is sort of

959
00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:26.280
<v Speaker 3>the necessary evil. You know, it's not the fun part.

960
00:52:26.360 --> 00:52:29.800
<v Speaker 3>The fun part is designing the solution, right. So I

961
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:32.639
<v Speaker 3>think that's one of the main reasons why I love

962
00:52:32.760 --> 00:52:35.639
<v Speaker 3>using A for this, because I can sort of still

963
00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:39.199
<v Speaker 3>be fully involved in all that decision making process and

964
00:52:39.320 --> 00:52:43.320
<v Speaker 3>solution design, but then I'm basically just delegating all the

965
00:52:43.400 --> 00:52:51.039
<v Speaker 3>actual code writing to a system of parallel cloud based

966
00:52:51.079 --> 00:52:54.800
<v Speaker 3>agents who while I'm asleep, they can just make a

967
00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:57.239
<v Speaker 3>dozen pull requests and the next morning I'll wake up

968
00:52:57.320 --> 00:53:01.440
<v Speaker 3>and just review them and you know, provide feedback and.

969
00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:02.400
<v Speaker 2>So on and so forth.

970
00:53:04.159 --> 00:53:05.360
<v Speaker 1>It's a brave new world in it.

971
00:53:05.480 --> 00:53:07.880
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely it's very exciting, Yeah it is.

972
00:53:08.800 --> 00:53:12.920
<v Speaker 1>And it's also I think freeing our imaginations to come

973
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:15.360
<v Speaker 1>up with solutions because and this has been a theme

974
00:53:15.559 --> 00:53:17.960
<v Speaker 1>we've talked to many people about, starting with that Scott

975
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:23.199
<v Speaker 1>Hunter interview. Right, just imagination is going to be a

976
00:53:23.480 --> 00:53:28.559
<v Speaker 1>very important commodity now, the creativity to think about what

977
00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:31.800
<v Speaker 1>you can do, and if you can think it, you

978
00:53:31.920 --> 00:53:36.199
<v Speaker 1>can probably get it done. And that's just an amazing thing.

979
00:53:36.559 --> 00:53:41.519
<v Speaker 3>That's right, because I guess there's sort of no downside

980
00:53:41.639 --> 00:53:46.599
<v Speaker 3>to just trying something, right is if you can articulate

981
00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:49.559
<v Speaker 3>your idea, then you can have an agent go off

982
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.039
<v Speaker 3>and have a crack at it and just see what happens.

983
00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:54.400
<v Speaker 3>And I mean, the only thing you've lost is maybe

984
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:59.000
<v Speaker 3>a few cents of token usage, and that's really it.

985
00:53:59.320 --> 00:53:59.840
<v Speaker 2>So why not?

986
00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:03.920
<v Speaker 1>So it pays to stay in school kids and learn

987
00:54:03.960 --> 00:54:06.000
<v Speaker 1>as much as you can about the English language, and

988
00:54:06.119 --> 00:54:08.960
<v Speaker 1>take writing classes and be clear and your thoughts and

989
00:54:09.079 --> 00:54:12.960
<v Speaker 1>all of that, and don't use like too much, and

990
00:54:13.280 --> 00:54:18.159
<v Speaker 1>you know, treat each other well.

991
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:21.239
<v Speaker 3>That's right, and the good news.

992
00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:25.679
<v Speaker 2>Of wisdom.

993
00:54:26.440 --> 00:54:28.719
<v Speaker 3>You can also use AI to teach you things as well,

994
00:54:29.400 --> 00:54:31.599
<v Speaker 3>which is cooling. So if you want to learn something,

995
00:54:33.400 --> 00:54:36.960
<v Speaker 3>you can just ask AI to create a personalized tutorial.

996
00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:41.039
<v Speaker 1>I think that's or even little things like I do

997
00:54:41.159 --> 00:54:41.760
<v Speaker 1>this all the time.

998
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Now.

999
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:47.599
<v Speaker 1>I was watching a TV show and this woman, this

1000
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:51.679
<v Speaker 1>young woman had what looked like a tube coming a

1001
00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:55.000
<v Speaker 1>white tube coming from her ear into her nose with

1002
00:54:55.159 --> 00:54:58.239
<v Speaker 1>some scotch tape on her cheek. And I thought, that

1003
00:54:58.360 --> 00:55:01.000
<v Speaker 1>looks very strange. Is it oxygen?

1004
00:55:01.079 --> 00:55:01.440
<v Speaker 2>What is it?

1005
00:55:02.039 --> 00:55:03.960
<v Speaker 1>So I took a couple of pictures of the TV

1006
00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:06.920
<v Speaker 1>screen to send it to chat Gypt and it quickly

1007
00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:11.960
<v Speaker 1>figured out that it was a feeding tube because and

1008
00:55:12.079 --> 00:55:15.599
<v Speaker 1>then turns out like later on somebody asked her because

1009
00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:17.400
<v Speaker 1>it was a cooking show, somebody asked her, did you

1010
00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:19.320
<v Speaker 1>chase your food? And she says, no, I can't taste

1011
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:26.880
<v Speaker 1>it because I have this gastric just whatever situation where

1012
00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:30.360
<v Speaker 1>it takes two hours to half digest food, and so

1013
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:33.519
<v Speaker 1>she has to eat through a feeding tube. And she'd

1014
00:55:33.559 --> 00:55:35.000
<v Speaker 1>had to do that she was twenty one, she'd had

1015
00:55:35.039 --> 00:55:37.760
<v Speaker 1>to do it since she was thirteen. Wow, But chatchypt

1016
00:55:37.960 --> 00:55:40.159
<v Speaker 1>figured it all out, and then I was asking it

1017
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:43.800
<v Speaker 1>questions about does that go all the way down the esophagus,

1018
00:55:43.920 --> 00:55:45.960
<v Speaker 1>isn't that uncomfortable? And it's like telling me all this

1019
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:48.960
<v Speaker 1>stuff that I would It's just like having an expert.

1020
00:55:49.320 --> 00:55:51.159
<v Speaker 1>It's like having Richard in your house.

1021
00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:52.199
<v Speaker 3>You know.

1022
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:55.400
<v Speaker 1>I can say Richard, what is that? And hit clause

1023
00:55:55.440 --> 00:55:58.800
<v Speaker 1>and Richard knows everything, so he would tell me it's.

1024
00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:01.079
<v Speaker 2>Really cool, right, which is it's interesting.

1025
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:03.360
<v Speaker 1>It's better, way better than just Google.

1026
00:56:03.639 --> 00:56:04.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure.

1027
00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:06.519
<v Speaker 1>Before you leave, I have an Adam's story for you.

1028
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:10.840
<v Speaker 1>It was I can't remember when, but he was doing

1029
00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:14.440
<v Speaker 1>some videos with me for DNR TV, so that tells

1030
00:56:14.480 --> 00:56:16.920
<v Speaker 1>you it was a while ago, early two thousands. Yeah,

1031
00:56:17.760 --> 00:56:20.800
<v Speaker 1>and he was actually in Boston for techads. So that

1032
00:56:20.920 --> 00:56:24.119
<v Speaker 1>was what two thousand and six maybe something like that, Yeah,

1033
00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:27.239
<v Speaker 1>something like that. So he came down and we were

1034
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:30.039
<v Speaker 1>up all night and I was just basically waiting for

1035
00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:32.960
<v Speaker 1>him to get his demo together because he was, you know,

1036
00:56:33.159 --> 00:56:36.000
<v Speaker 1>working on it. So seven o'clock in the morning rolls

1037
00:56:36.000 --> 00:56:39.079
<v Speaker 1>around time for Brecky. So we go to a diner.

1038
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:42.039
<v Speaker 1>So two thousand and six, right, so we barely have

1039
00:56:42.360 --> 00:56:46.440
<v Speaker 1>internet on phones, but we do have it. And he

1040
00:56:46.559 --> 00:56:48.679
<v Speaker 1>go to a diner and I'm putting pepper on my eggs.

1041
00:56:48.719 --> 00:56:51.760
<v Speaker 1>He goes, you gotta watch that stuff. I said, what

1042
00:56:52.480 --> 00:56:54.199
<v Speaker 1>black papa bad for blokes?

1043
00:56:55.039 --> 00:56:55.239
<v Speaker 3>Like what?

1044
00:56:56.079 --> 00:57:05.159
<v Speaker 1>He says, Yeah, I'll give you a prostate cancer. Come on, Well,

1045
00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:07.519
<v Speaker 1>I didn't have Chatty obviously, but I did have Google

1046
00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:10.119
<v Speaker 1>on my phone. I looked it up and not turns out.

1047
00:57:11.159 --> 00:57:14.519
<v Speaker 1>It turns out not only is black pepper good for

1048
00:57:14.639 --> 00:57:19.400
<v Speaker 1>your immune system and therefore not causing cancer, but kespasin,

1049
00:57:19.519 --> 00:57:22.519
<v Speaker 1>which is not black pepper at all. But it's the

1050
00:57:22.599 --> 00:57:26.199
<v Speaker 1>stuff that makes Pepper's chili peppers hot. When you apply

1051
00:57:26.400 --> 00:57:28.960
<v Speaker 1>ks spasin directly to prostate cancer cells.

1052
00:57:28.760 --> 00:57:29.360
<v Speaker 2>It kills them.

1053
00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:33.360
<v Speaker 1>So I was like, dude, where did you learn this?

1054
00:57:33.480 --> 00:57:37.280
<v Speaker 3>He goes, friend, Yeah, well, look, it's all about strong

1055
00:57:37.320 --> 00:57:38.400
<v Speaker 3>opinions weekly hill.

1056
00:57:38.559 --> 00:57:42.239
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, yeah, a change. But I told my kids.

1057
00:57:42.119 --> 00:57:44.719
<v Speaker 1>Because they grew up in the Internet age, and you know,

1058
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:47.760
<v Speaker 1>when you have a phone, when you get older, you

1059
00:57:47.880 --> 00:57:51.280
<v Speaker 1>can use it as your portable BS detector. And you know,

1060
00:57:51.320 --> 00:57:54.679
<v Speaker 1>and somebody tells you something, don't take it at face value.

1061
00:57:54.719 --> 00:57:56.159
<v Speaker 1>Go and look it up and look it up at

1062
00:57:56.159 --> 00:58:03.599
<v Speaker 1>a reputable fact checking site, not just like you know, TikTok. Anyway, callum,

1063
00:58:03.679 --> 00:58:06.000
<v Speaker 1>thank you very much, it's been so great talking to you,

1064
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:07.960
<v Speaker 1>and this is great stuff and I can't wait for

1065
00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:09.679
<v Speaker 1>V two. I'm gonna run it myself.

1066
00:58:10.039 --> 00:58:10.599
<v Speaker 2>I can't wait.

1067
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:12.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I can't wait to roll it out of you though.

1068
00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:13.480
<v Speaker 3>Thanks having me.

1069
00:58:13.880 --> 00:58:17.239
<v Speaker 1>You let us know when it's available do and thanks Callum,

1070
00:58:17.920 --> 00:58:20.880
<v Speaker 1>and we'll talk to you next time on dot net rocks.

1071
00:58:41.480 --> 00:58:44.039
<v Speaker 1>Dot net rocks is brought to you by Franklin's Net

1072
00:58:44.320 --> 00:58:48.239
<v Speaker 1>and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, video

1073
00:58:48.320 --> 00:58:52.360
<v Speaker 1>and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut,

1074
00:58:52.679 --> 00:58:56.840
<v Speaker 1>and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com.

1075
00:58:57.679 --> 00:58:59.679
<v Speaker 1>Visit our website at d O T N E t

1076
00:59:00.119 --> 00:59:04.039
<v Speaker 1>R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1077
00:59:04.199 --> 00:59:07.840
<v Speaker 1>mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1078
00:59:07.920 --> 00:59:11.320
<v Speaker 1>back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

1079
00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:13.960
<v Speaker 1>and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors.

1080
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:16.920
<v Speaker 1>They keep us in business. Now go write some code,

1081
00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:18.239
<v Speaker 1>see you next time.

1082
00:59:19.159 --> 00:59:20.960
<v Speaker 3>You got javans

1083
00:59:23.079 --> 00:59:23.119
<v Speaker 2>And