Speaker 1: Oh there. M hm.
Speaker 2: Trigger warn This podcast may include explicit content that will
Speaker 2: take you out of your comfort zone and make you
Speaker 2: question reality.
Speaker 1: Listener's discretion is advised. Hmm.
Speaker 3: Hello and welcome back to the brand new cult mini series.
Speaker 3: In this series, Colby and I will be taking you
Speaker 3: on a journey through the mysteries of mental illness. This
Speaker 3: series was actually inspired by a conversation Colby and I
Speaker 3: were having about a local crazy homeless guy who may
Speaker 3: or may not have machete some poor guys head off
Speaker 3: in Ashland. You were telling me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're taking a lot of stories and
Speaker 1: clumping them together.
Speaker 3: Anyways, We're gonna be talking about the history of mental illness,
Speaker 3: the medieval treatments all the way to the modern day outlook,
Speaker 3: is mental illness more of a misunderstood spiritual condition or
Speaker 3: simply something that can be prescribed away or therapy sessioned away?
Speaker 3: This is the topic and today today's episode is can
Speaker 3: Spire Asylum Part one the Loboto Matrix and Colby is
Speaker 3: joining me for this series. Colby, how are you?
Speaker 1: I'm good? Feeling extra insane tonight?
Speaker 3: I knew it me too, And isn't it sick?
Speaker 1: It's a full moon.
Speaker 3: I think, oo, you can be lunatics tonight.
Speaker 1: I'm too tired to be a lunatic.
Speaker 3: August eighth, so we have eight eight lions gate energy
Speaker 3: plus a full moon. There's probably a lot of homeless
Speaker 3: crazy people running around somewhere, machete in people's heads off.
Speaker 1: It's a waxing gibbus tonight. It's not quite full Oh.
Speaker 3: It's a waxing gibbis. Are you excited for this new
Speaker 3: mini series?
Speaker 1: Super excited?
Speaker 3: So where should we begin? At the beginning? Right? The
Speaker 3: history of mental illness?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think a good reference point to start things
Speaker 1: off would be what many people think the definition of
Speaker 1: insanity is.
Speaker 3: It's not doing something over and over again.
Speaker 1: Okay, so do you know that the phrase how it goes?
Speaker 1: I don't know what word for word, The definition of
Speaker 1: insanity is repeating the same thing over and over but
Speaker 1: expecting different results. Something.
Speaker 3: That's not the definition.
Speaker 1: No, it isn't. But do you know who is attributed
Speaker 1: to having had said that?
Speaker 3: Some idiot?
Speaker 1: Well, don't look at my notes. I have heard it
Speaker 1: was Albert Einstein. Oh yeah, you know what that does?
Speaker 3: Sound familiar.
Speaker 1: I've also heard it was Benjamin Franklin.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I also heard that it was Mark Twain. I can
Speaker 1: I could.
Speaker 3: Get behind the first one and that one, but not
Speaker 3: Ben Franklin. He just didn't seem like the type to
Speaker 3: be saying.
Speaker 1: Well, the funny thing is none of those three men
Speaker 1: said that.
Speaker 3: Who the fuck said it?
Speaker 1: Well, when you dig around a little bit, it looks
Speaker 1: like the first place that it's that it was printed
Speaker 1: or was like said to be a thing other than
Speaker 1: people saying other people said it, because there's no documentation
Speaker 1: of any of those three aforementioned people having said it.
Speaker 1: But the earliest is from a fucking alan On magazine article,
Speaker 1: like a a non said it. Alanon is alcoholics, Anonymous
Speaker 1: is for alcoholics. Alan On is for loved ones or
Speaker 1: family members of alcoholics. Really, you haven't heard of alan On.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 1: So they all have their sayings, you know, alcoholics, Anonymous
Speaker 1: has their However, you want to look at their twelve
Speaker 1: steps and the things they tell you that you have
Speaker 1: to do and that you have to have the power
Speaker 1: come from without from outside yourself. But Alann had this
Speaker 1: other thing where they basically said, I mean, I'm paraphrasing
Speaker 1: what the statement meant, but it seemed like it was sane.
Speaker 1: Addicts are it's a form of insanity, and you kind.
Speaker 3: Of have to Okay, Yeah, but it's been so liberally
Speaker 3: applied the word insanity. No, that's stupid. Oh, it's expectingly
Speaker 3: it's doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: Let's break that statement down, because if that was true,
Speaker 1: nobody who ever practiced anything that they got good at
Speaker 1: would have ever kept going unless they were insane. Because
Speaker 1: if you fucking start throwing darts, you're doing the same
Speaker 1: thing trying to get better, and you are expecting different results.
Speaker 1: And if you practice enough at anything, you will get better.
Speaker 3: But practicing in and of itself is doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: Over and over. That's why I'm saying that, and.
Speaker 3: Getting different results because you're getting better at it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, anyway, we're getting into semantics of the word insanity.
Speaker 1: And another thing that I find interesting is that insanity
Speaker 1: in technical terms, there's only one place you can find it. Today.
Speaker 1: It's been replaced by a whole slew of mental health nomenclature.
Speaker 1: And now, what's your guess on where it is still
Speaker 1: a technical term insanity? I'll give you a hint. Serial killers, Well,
Speaker 1: they don't use insane anymore. The word insane technical terms.
Speaker 1: Unless it's in the court of law. You can plead insanity.
Speaker 3: Right, okay, Temporary insanity.
Speaker 1: Or temporary insanity is a plea. Usually it seems like
Speaker 1: a plea of desperation, but you can plead full on
Speaker 1: insanity too.
Speaker 3: There were other words like back in the day, like
Speaker 3: you could say somebody was mad, you could say somebody
Speaker 3: was uh, even possessed. They would say that people were
Speaker 3: possessed or mad or insane retarded.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but those are two overlapping things, right. Retardation
Speaker 1: mental illness of any kind is a pretty broad term.
Speaker 1: But I would say that when we used to call
Speaker 1: people insane or crazy, you were talking about some kind
Speaker 1: of biological neurological disorder, which they still don't know exactly
Speaker 1: what causes it to this day. They claim they do
Speaker 1: because they saw a lot of pharmaceuticals. And I do
Speaker 1: believe that we were going to get into that in
Speaker 1: full scale in the second episode. Yes, but pharmaceuticals aside.
Speaker 1: If you want to start getting into the early history
Speaker 1: of mental illness slash insanity, you're not going to find
Speaker 1: a lot out there before, like Greek societies, where every
Speaker 1: form of mental illness was attributed to a supernatural origin, paranormal, supernatural, religious,
Speaker 1: fill in the blank with that kind of word, and
Speaker 1: that was what was going on. Even when you get
Speaker 1: back into like ancient tribal society and shamanism, which I
Speaker 1: think once we start getting into it, I have an
Speaker 1: article I want to read about a guy who came
Speaker 1: over to America from somewhere in Africa in the early
Speaker 1: eighties and he couldn't believe the way that we look
Speaker 1: at it because their cultures have always looked at it
Speaker 1: as something completely different, which will we will get into.
Speaker 1: But what are your thoughts on like how it kind
Speaker 1: of emerged and more often to what it is today.
Speaker 3: Well, I think I think, uh, as we're going to
Speaker 3: kind of get into in the second episode about pharmaceuticals
Speaker 3: and the big money machine that is mental illness, you'll
Speaker 3: kind of see this pattern developing. We're in the beginning
Speaker 3: in like ancient cultures, which I'm going to touch on
Speaker 3: a little bit, if you had someone in your community
Speaker 3: that was insane or whatever the fuck was wrong with them,
Speaker 3: they treated it as like a spiritual condition and they
Speaker 3: like nurtured the person and they like tried to you know,
Speaker 3: do remedies and stuff on the person to get to
Speaker 3: try to fix them. And now it's just like it.
Speaker 3: We've gotten to the point where it's just like shoven
Speaker 3: peels down people's throats. They completely removed the spiritual aspect,
Speaker 3: I mean to zero. There is no spiritual aspect of
Speaker 3: it anymore. It's all medicine. And in the beginning they
Speaker 3: would do like rituals, they would do prayers on people.
Speaker 3: Uh they you know, they thought supernatural forces or even
Speaker 3: curses or deities, could it be responsible for their condition?
Speaker 3: And they even something that both of us wanted to
Speaker 3: talk about is like the the practice of the Trephi nation,
Speaker 3: I guess is what it's called, like Jeffrey Dahmer's style,
Speaker 3: I mean skulls.
Speaker 1: You make a great point. I did want to counter
Speaker 1: a couple things you said, just because I don't think
Speaker 1: the spiritual element has completely disappeared in modern day in
Speaker 1: mainstream society for the most part, it has. But you
Speaker 1: can still look at Catholicism and other similar organizations that
Speaker 1: treat this as.
Speaker 3: It We're talking about like the mainstream narrative, when you
Speaker 3: find a schizophrenic person, it's not to take them to
Speaker 3: the pope, it's to take them to for sure somewhere
Speaker 3: to get pills.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you do look at it through normal eyes,
Speaker 1: that is the go to. But I don't think it's
Speaker 1: completely disappeared. And I also don't think the spiritual element
Speaker 1: back in the day was always met with a nurturing reaction.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes even early on, there was a lot
Speaker 1: of outcasting going on with people who had mental illness,
Speaker 1: and especially when you started getting into like the European
Speaker 1: societies where this was showing up, and it was talking
Speaker 1: about even before right, right, But I would say the
Speaker 1: outcasting of the mentally ill did have a huge uptick
Speaker 1: once it was you know, the stigma attached to it.
Speaker 1: It was if your family had any kind of name
Speaker 1: or reputation, that was the last thing that you wanted
Speaker 1: to be associated with. And even back in the day
Speaker 1: when there was like tribalism and shamanism was a big
Speaker 1: thing going on, there was a lot of tribes that
Speaker 1: were scared of this and they it was met with
Speaker 1: a huge misunderstanding and fear. But yeah, it's never just
Speaker 1: been like one way across the board how we've reacted
Speaker 1: to mental illness, and it may never be unless we
Speaker 1: do have some huge breakthrough and understanding, because I'm of
Speaker 1: the mindset that it could be spiritual and physical and
Speaker 1: sometimes more so one or the other.
Speaker 3: Well, I could get down with that, but I try
Speaker 3: to look at like a bunch of different ancient cultures
Speaker 3: to see how things have escalated to this point to
Speaker 3: where you know, we look at it the way that
Speaker 3: we do. And you know, is every homeless person just
Speaker 3: possessed by a demon? I don't know that. So yeah,
Speaker 3: could it be some spiritual some physical?
Speaker 1: Yes, well in the two build upon one another.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure. I mean, I know you wanted to talk
Speaker 3: about Greece, but before we do that, can I touch
Speaker 3: on a few other ancients?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, I was just using Greece as one of
Speaker 1: those examples of the more compassionate.
Speaker 3: They were the one of the more compassionate.
Speaker 1: So even though there's elements I'm gonna touch on that
Speaker 1: show how fucking far behind they were in some ways.
Speaker 3: No, I agree with you on that, but I'm gonna
Speaker 3: let you actually cover that one. I have Mesopotamia as
Speaker 3: one of the and so I looked into and they
Speaker 3: were big into like thinking that people were possessed by
Speaker 3: deities and they would say, like the hands of those
Speaker 3: deities like that. That they would say the hands of
Speaker 3: ish tar was used as a psychological illness, like a
Speaker 3: term for psychological illness, like they were cursed or something.
Speaker 1: Really, yeah, remember that word. My son always says it.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he's kind of stopped.
Speaker 1: But it was like one of his first things like
Speaker 1: to say. And we wondered why.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So they would say if somebody was like insane,
Speaker 3: they would say that they had the hands of ishtar.
Speaker 3: So whatever deity they thought was possessing them or cursing
Speaker 3: them or plaguing them.
Speaker 1: And then.
Speaker 3: In Mesopotamia, the royal family of el I guess that
Speaker 3: was one of the big royal families or whatever. It
Speaker 3: was notorious for its members frequently being insane. This royal
Speaker 3: family in ancient Mesopotamia makes you wonder if they were
Speaker 3: doing a little incestuous shit right for so many of
Speaker 3: their family members to be fucking insane. But they actually
Speaker 3: said that a rectile dysfunction was a psychological problem in
Speaker 3: ancient Mesopotamia. And you know, men have needed blue shoe
Speaker 3: since literally the beginning of time.
Speaker 1: Can we insert the sam tripoli Id reader right here?
Speaker 3: But that was interesting to me. It's like this one
Speaker 3: royal family was specifically or particularly afflicted with mental illness
Speaker 3: and they would blame it on having soft penises. Yes,
Speaker 3: I mean I would agree that their penises were so
Speaker 3: soft it drove them insane.
Speaker 1: Or vice versa. I think that them looking at it
Speaker 1: as a psychological disorder was thinking way ahead of the
Speaker 1: time for what we are led to believe that culture
Speaker 1: had at their fingertips as far as information goes. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think nine times out of ten there are certain
Speaker 1: physical afflictions that can cause impotency, but for the most
Speaker 1: part it is psychological. So good job Mesopotamia.
Speaker 3: Yeah, good job Mesopotamia.
Speaker 1: You think they put hummus on their blue cheoe? Yes,
Speaker 1: they did hum chew.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was actually called to bully chow.
Speaker 1: Well nice.
Speaker 3: Anyways, I'm gonna skip Rome, even though I put a
Speaker 3: bunch of notes in here, because Greece and Rome kind
Speaker 3: of go hand in hand. So I'm just gonna skip
Speaker 3: to the next one I had.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they just inherited everything from them.
Speaker 3: Right, So mental disorders in ancient Egypt. This is one
Speaker 3: that I wanted to talk to you about because you
Speaker 3: found out a bunch of information about Hippocrates, and actually
Speaker 3: I think now would be a good time to talk
Speaker 3: about that before.
Speaker 1: I pronounced Hippocrates. Have you seen Bill and Ted?
Speaker 3: Yes, so Crates, I forgot about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is how it's spelled, the Hippocrates, and.
Speaker 3: You talk about Hippocrates in Rome, and then I'll talk
Speaker 3: about ancient Egypt because I think they actually kind of
Speaker 3: tie together.
Speaker 1: Well, ancient Egypt, I'll say right off the bat, we're
Speaker 1: highly advanced in the way they looked at it. Yes,
Speaker 1: they sounded like a Joe Rogan podcast. When it came
Speaker 1: to mental illness. They basically their answer to it was
Speaker 1: to expose the afflicted to socializing, recreation and creativity. So
Speaker 1: if melancholy strikes someone for an amount of time, they
Speaker 1: would push them to engage with you know, go to
Speaker 1: a concert, paint picture, do whatever. And oftentimes it was successful.
Speaker 1: Of course, people like Joe Rogan don't realize that sometimes
Speaker 1: people are just fucking depressed or mentally afflicted in ways
Speaker 1: that can't be but it does help a lot of people.
Speaker 1: Like the stagnant lifestyle, having everything you need, not really
Speaker 1: having adversity in your day to day life. I mean,
Speaker 1: these are things that are preached now in the right
Speaker 1: wing wellness community, but there is a lot to it.
Speaker 1: It's not the end all, be all cure, but I
Speaker 1: think the Egyptians were ahead of their time for thinking
Speaker 1: like that, and.
Speaker 3: The same lines with Joe Rogan. The ancient Egyptians also
Speaker 3: said to cure hysteria and melancholy, they should take hallucinogens, right,
Speaker 3: So that was another thing that the ancient Egyptians kind of.
Speaker 1: And that fucking toe shaped gnome is obsessed with Egypt.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, well, who is it really they did?
Speaker 3: They did spells and shit too, Don't don't get it twisted.
Speaker 3: In ancient Egypt, there were They did use certain temples
Speaker 3: and spell casting and hallucinogens, and.
Speaker 1: They also believed in the wandering Uterus, which we will
Speaker 1: talk about. That even kind of crosses over into hippocrites.
Speaker 3: Would you say his fucking name?
Speaker 1: Right, I'm saying it, Bill and tedstyle Hippocrates. For as
Speaker 1: much as he was given credit for, he was also
Speaker 1: kind of looney.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was. Go ahead, talk about Greece.
Speaker 1: Then, well, I've got an article to read. Oh yes,
Speaker 1: you said Greece. I had an article on ancient Egypt.
Speaker 3: Oh, sure, if you have one on ancient Egypt before we.
Speaker 1: Get to and I also at some point, do you
Speaker 1: want to read the shamanic view of mental illness by
Speaker 1: that guy that came over in the eighties with the
Speaker 1: you know African Yeah, but any of the African view
Speaker 1: of mental illness that he brought with him over here.
Speaker 3: And just thought, you want to sum up the ancient
Speaker 3: culture's segment with.
Speaker 1: That article, Yeah, we can do that, just it'll be
Speaker 1: a good segue acrossing over into the botto too. But
Speaker 1: for now, this woman wrote an article, Kathy Pike, and
Speaker 1: she's like fucking Columbia University or some shit. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: she points out that the hieroglyphs, statues, and mummies from
Speaker 1: thousands of years ago is tells stories of war, leadership, succession,
Speaker 1: cultural beliefs, and the evolution of ideas. But a lot
Speaker 1: of the stuff that was overlooked these people think could
Speaker 1: be attributed to their view on mental health. And here's
Speaker 1: some points she's brought up where the spiritual, mystical, magical,
Speaker 1: and medical meat mental health and ancient Egypt cannot be
Speaker 1: understood without exploring the rituals, amulets, incantations and beliefs they were,
Speaker 1: and you were talking about this that were at once spiritual, mystical, magical,
Speaker 1: and medical. I noticed you had this in your notes too.
Speaker 1: But Papyrus Ebers, the best preserved and most extensive medical
Speaker 1: text from ancient Egypt, was written approximately fifteen hundred BC,
Speaker 1: reflecting some teachings that are thought to date back as
Speaker 1: far as three thousand in BC. Papyrus Ebers recurred records
Speaker 1: over seven hundred spells to send away illness causing demonic forces.
Speaker 1: It also documents an empirical practice of testing and refining
Speaker 1: interventions to improve outcomes, including guidance on birth control that
Speaker 1: foreshadows modern day barrier methods of contraception, and a treatment
Speaker 1: for guinea worm still in use today ivermectin guinea worm.
Speaker 1: That's what it says.
Speaker 3: Were they thinking that people had like worms in their brain?
Speaker 1: I don't know, probably something along those lines. What about
Speaker 1: the brain? The Edwin Smith Paprius, also dating from approximately
Speaker 1: fifteen fifty BC, stands out because it describes the brain
Speaker 1: for the first time in history, as enclosed in a membrane,
Speaker 1: with two hemispheres patterned and with convolutions. It contains The
Speaker 1: first known descriptions of the miniges is that how that
Speaker 1: said sure cerebral spinal fluid, and intercranial pulsations. Despite these
Speaker 1: early anatomical descriptions of the brain, the mummification process suggests
Speaker 1: that the ancient Egypts had limited understanding or appreciating appreciation
Speaker 1: of brain functioning. The afterlife was all important in ancient Egypts,
Speaker 1: and extensive, extensive measures were taken. The process of mummification
Speaker 1: to prepare people for the world hereafter death was nothing
Speaker 1: but a further step in life. But for reasons I
Speaker 1: have yet to understand, they thought that the brain was
Speaker 1: not necessary for the afterlife because it's not during mummification.
Speaker 1: It was scooped out through the nostrils with an iron
Speaker 1: hook and a process known as ex cerebration.
Speaker 3: Okay, I have a question they if they're not worried
Speaker 3: about the brain and they're only looking at the brain
Speaker 3: as they do the mummification process, how the fun do
Speaker 3: they know all that stuff about the cerebellum and the
Speaker 3: core texes and the Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's not like they cracked a skull open and examined
Speaker 1: it because they're yanking it out through the nose.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying. It's like they're not giving the
Speaker 3: ancient Egyptians enough credit here for.
Speaker 1: Being a wag's That's the thing, is.
Speaker 3: An understanding stuff that we have no idea about. I
Speaker 3: think they had electricity. I mean, I think they had
Speaker 3: all kinds of shit. They're fucking even understanding.
Speaker 1: If we want to do a conspiracy episode about like
Speaker 1: who these people were and what they were doing, I'm
Speaker 1: guaranteeing you all this stuff is.
Speaker 3: Gonna just see how she undermined them by saying that
Speaker 3: they were just retards taking brains out through the nose
Speaker 3: and mummification and da da da. Well, it's like, now, bitch.
Speaker 1: She's making a huge leap that they would view the
Speaker 1: brain as important during the next step into the afterlife,
Speaker 1: when I mean, obviously that's just part of the physical form.
Speaker 3: They did mummification as a process to like preserve the body.
Speaker 3: But that this papyrus of them documenting medical stuff has
Speaker 3: nothing to do with mummification. They're talking about they're talking
Speaker 3: about like electric synapses in the brain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but how is that?
Speaker 3: I mean, people just don't understand Egyptians. I'm not saying
Speaker 3: I'm a fucking expert on it or anything. I'm just
Speaker 3: saying they knew what was up.
Speaker 1: Wait, this is proving that. Number three Ancient Egypt's description
Speaker 1: of depression. The ancient Egyptian medical text describes somatic, emotional
Speaker 1: and psychological symptoms of depression with language that foreshadows clinical
Speaker 1: description of mood disorders today, as discussed by Professor Mervat Nasser.
Speaker 1: Papyrus Ebers contains descriptions of ill health that are easily
Speaker 1: recognized as what we would call mental health conditions today.
Speaker 1: Exserts include the mind and the heart, which goes up
Speaker 1: and falls down. The mind kneels his heart in its place.
Speaker 1: His heart becomes weary, he eats little and is fastidious,
Speaker 1: and his mind is drowned. This means his mind is forgetful,
Speaker 1: like one who's thinking of something else, as if his
Speaker 1: mind is dark. The ancient Egyptians focused on the somatic
Speaker 1: aspects of conditions we would describe as mental orders today.
Speaker 1: The prioritization of somatic features and mental health is something
Speaker 1: that endures in many parts of the world, including modern
Speaker 1: day Egypt. This one I found very interesting. Number four
Speaker 1: dream interpretation. Sigmund Freud, the father of Psychoanalysis published The
Speaker 1: Interpretations of Dreams in eighteen ninety nine as one of
Speaker 1: his earliest publications that contributed to the foundations of ideas
Speaker 1: and theories that revolutionized our understanding of mental health. Depends
Speaker 1: on who you're asking there, human development, interpersonal relations, and
Speaker 1: intra psychic dynamics. The ancient Egypts had their own version
Speaker 1: of dream interpretation many centuries earlier. In ancient Egypt's, a
Speaker 1: person suffering from psychological distress would be sent to a sanatorium,
Speaker 1: a sleep temple dedicated to healing. In the sanatorium, they
Speaker 1: would enter a dark cell and prepare for a therapeutic dream.
Speaker 1: I have that in my notes too. A hypnotic state
Speaker 1: was induced by lamps and burning perfumed wood. This sounds like,
Speaker 1: you know, like an isolation tank or something, but it
Speaker 1: sounds like some hippie dippy nonsense that you could find
Speaker 1: in Ashland, Oregon. Well, you know those like they call
Speaker 1: them caves, but it's like deprivation for days on end.
Speaker 1: Aaron Rodgers went to one of them here and he
Speaker 1: didn't last the full amount of times.
Speaker 3: Like they're doing Reikie on these fuckers.
Speaker 1: The hypnotic state was induced by lamps and burning perfumed wood.
Speaker 1: Priests interpreted the dreams and consulted the Egyptian dream Berg
Speaker 1: dream Book to find cures. Unlike Freud, who believed that
Speaker 1: dreams represent an individual's unconscious and internal psychic conflict, the
Speaker 1: ancient Egypts understood dreams to be supernatural, where gods were
Speaker 1: responsible for shaping dream content and protecting against bad dreams.
Speaker 3: I could get on board with that.
Speaker 1: And this is the last observation number five. First psychology experiment.
Speaker 1: Psychology historian Morton Hunt suggests that the first psychology experiment
Speaker 1: conducted might be an experiment performed by the Egyptian pharaoh
Speaker 1: Samaticus Samatitius. I think it's tikis the first and seventh
Speaker 1: century BC. He wanted to ascertain whether Egypt was the
Speaker 1: oldest civilization on earth. He hypothesized that children raised in
Speaker 1: isolation from birth with no language instruction, would spontaneously develop
Speaker 1: the capacity to speak the language of the original civilization
Speaker 1: of humanity, and posited that it would be Egyptian. He
Speaker 1: had two children raised in a remote region by a
Speaker 1: shepherd who was instructed not to speak to the children.
Speaker 1: This sounds like fucking Nazi shit. Yeah, at the age
Speaker 1: of two. The first word they spoke was bekos, which
Speaker 1: turned out to be the Ragian word for bread. Clearly,
Speaker 1: the experimental design was seriously flawed and it would never
Speaker 1: get through a modern research ethics review board. You don't say,
Speaker 1: but it is remarkable in its attempt to experimentally answer
Speaker 1: the question of whether the human capacity for language is innate.
Speaker 3: That's interesting. I'm telling you ancient Egyptians were up to
Speaker 3: some shit. Was that all you had on them? Because
Speaker 3: I think you're gonna find China equally as interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we could get into Hippocrates after that.
Speaker 3: That sounds good because I don't know how many notes
Speaker 3: you have on China.
Speaker 1: Zero.
Speaker 3: Oh good.
Speaker 1: So I had some observations about how they treated in sanity,
Speaker 1: and like more modern culture, it was one of the
Speaker 1: cultures that did a lot of the shunning of.
Speaker 3: Really, well, this is ancient China.
Speaker 1: I'm I did not look into China at all.
Speaker 3: So it's actually a good segue into Hippocrates because I
Speaker 3: believe he actually ripped the Chinese methods off.
Speaker 1: Are you sure he wasn't just paying respectful homage?
Speaker 3: No, Because he's credited as coming up with the theory.
Speaker 1: Well, you know he's white.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: You think you go over to China and they're teaching
Speaker 1: him as the guy who did all this.
Speaker 3: No, but okay, but think of it though, ancient China
Speaker 3: has a lot of rich history, right, and then Hippocrates
Speaker 3: is credited as coming up with this theory, But the
Speaker 3: ancient Chinese were practicing it for a lot longer.
Speaker 1: You're talking about the Four Humors.
Speaker 3: Yes, so they believed mental and physical illnesses were caused
Speaker 3: by imbalances in the forces of yin and yang. But
Speaker 3: they they took it as a physical and a mental condition.
Speaker 3: So they had this whole yin and yang thing. But
Speaker 3: the way that they balanced it out was the Four Humors,
Speaker 3: but they called it something else. The earliest known record
Speaker 3: of mental illness in ancient China dates back to eleven
Speaker 3: hundred BC, and they would use herbs and acupuncture, which
Speaker 3: actually acupuncture is still popular to this day because it's
Speaker 3: fucking effective.
Speaker 1: A lot of veterans when it added to the treatments
Speaker 1: that the VA covers, because it helps a lot of
Speaker 1: them out. Like we're talking PTSD, which is a form
Speaker 1: of mental illness.
Speaker 3: I actually have had two people tell me that they
Speaker 3: had infertility issues, got acupuncture, got pregnant like on their
Speaker 3: next cycle. And then I was talking to my doula
Speaker 3: and she said, don't don't get induced, don't get a
Speaker 3: membrane sweep, don't do any of that. She said, go
Speaker 3: get acupuncture. It'll legit start your labor after just a
Speaker 3: few treatments. Like acupuncture is some kind of fucking The
Speaker 3: Chinese had it figured out.
Speaker 1: Did you, doula listen to this podcast?
Speaker 3: No? Why, she's definitely not ready for it.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, I met this woman the
Speaker 1: other day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's not the type to listen to this podcast.
Speaker 1: I think you should tell her about it.
Speaker 3: No, I'm not gonna tell her about nothing. So the
Speaker 3: Inner Canon of the Yellow Emperor, as it's called, described her.
Speaker 1: That's racist. Why yellow?
Speaker 3: Hey, I didn't name it.
Speaker 1: I didn't say you were the one being racist. I
Speaker 1: just think we're gonna get hashtag canceled. Whatever.
Speaker 3: Cancel me. Then, that's what it's called the Inner Canon
Speaker 3: of the Yellow Emperor. It described symptoms, mechanisms, and therapies
Speaker 3: for mental illness, emphasizing connections between bodily organs and emotions.
Speaker 3: So they thought like, whatever your symptoms you were presenting mentally,
Speaker 3: it was connected to some kind of organ in your body,
Speaker 3: which that's why they used acupuncture so much. But they
Speaker 3: had this whole thing about if a person exposed themselves
Speaker 3: to high levels of emotion, Like.
Speaker 1: Oh, I thought you're gonna say if people exposed themselves
Speaker 1: they were considered mentally ill.
Speaker 3: No, it was like they would say, like if they
Speaker 3: if somebody went to a funeral and they were they
Speaker 3: cried too much, or if they were exposed to the
Speaker 3: trauma that they could get possessed and that could also
Speaker 3: lead to mental illness. So they would they said, it's
Speaker 3: trauma induced, it's stress induced. These are things that we
Speaker 3: are just barely understanding today, how stress and trauma affect
Speaker 3: the body and cause mental illness and actually could probably
Speaker 3: throw off some shit in your body, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, Stress, trauma, those things obviously you know you
Speaker 3: can end up having split personality disorder based on different
Speaker 3: types of trauma.
Speaker 1: Well. Stress arguably is one of the leading causes of
Speaker 1: the majority of mental or mental and physical elements. But
Speaker 1: they had this whole.
Speaker 3: They have this whole bile system that they worked on
Speaker 3: Yellow bile, green bile, clear bile. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh, this is from the Hippocrates. Sanguine, choleric, melancholic,
Speaker 1: and phlegmatic. Those are the four biles, and one of
Speaker 1: them is Sanguine is blood, Choleric is yellow bile, melancholic
Speaker 1: is black bile, and phlegmatic is phlim.
Speaker 3: So that idea actually came from the ancient Chinese. And
Speaker 3: I think this is a good segue for you to
Speaker 3: start talking about Hippocrates, because literally the four humors, as
Speaker 3: he called them, were the bile system in ancient China.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so if you want to know more about Hippocrates,
Speaker 1: everybody knows who he is, ancient famous physicysician, who you know,
Speaker 1: the Hippocratic oath, all that shit. But we're just going
Speaker 1: to be looking at his model of humorism, the concept.
Speaker 3: I think he called it humors. I don't know, there's
Speaker 3: nothing funny about it at all.
Speaker 1: Humorism, the hemoral theory or memorialism, is a system of
Speaker 1: medicine detailing is supposed to make up and workings of
Speaker 1: the human body. And here even in the Wikipedia, adopted
Speaker 1: by ancient Greek and Roman physicians, and philosophers. It doesn't
Speaker 1: even mention ancient Chinese. That's what I'm saying. He ripped
Speaker 1: them off, and here you go. The concept may have
Speaker 1: origins in ancient Egypt or Mesopotamia, though it wasn't systemized
Speaker 1: until ancient Greek thinkers.
Speaker 3: They're just totally going to leave out the chinamen well.
Speaker 1: Early texts on Indian A Eurveda medicine presented a theory
Speaker 1: of three or four humors thosas, which they times linked
Speaker 1: with the five elements earth, water, fire, air, and space.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just reading through here. I don't see any
Speaker 1: mention of the Chinese so far. The concept of humors
Speaker 1: chemical systems regulating human behavior became more prominent in the
Speaker 1: writing of medical theorists al Cameon of Croton five forty
Speaker 1: to five hundred BC. His list of humors was longer
Speaker 1: and included fundamental elements described by Empedocles, such as the
Speaker 1: elements Hippo I almost said hypocrites again. Hippocrates usually credited
Speaker 1: with applying this idea to medicine. In contrast to Alchemion,
Speaker 1: Hippocrates suggested that humans are the vital fluids blood, flim, yellow, bile,
Speaker 1: and black bile, and so you know, I don't want
Speaker 1: to just go through and give you his idea of
Speaker 1: what it was, but basically his ideas were still used
Speaker 1: till very recently. There was a YouTube video I was
Speaker 1: telling Julie about this earlier, where a guy would have
Speaker 1: his patients piss and he would smell their pea. First,
Speaker 1: he would look at it to see the colors, and
Speaker 1: then he would taste it. And one guy said he
Speaker 1: was depressed, brought his pea to him and he looked
Speaker 1: at it, tasted it, and he said it was too
Speaker 1: sweet and it had a slight red tint to it.
Speaker 1: So he recommended the man, this is what I thought
Speaker 1: was hilarious, drink a little less red wine and quit
Speaker 1: eating vegetables because vegetables are overall bad for your health.
Speaker 1: This is exactly what he told the guy. And this
Speaker 1: was not This was like filmed, so we're talking very modern,
Speaker 1: and this was the he was used. That was what
Speaker 1: he told this one patient, office piss, office piss.
Speaker 3: He's drank one too many. Now that's that is humorous,
Speaker 3: did it?
Speaker 1: It is? And I wonder what my pea would taste like.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm telling you right now since I've been yours.
Speaker 1: Pregnant pee has got to be the best.
Speaker 3: Oh, it is funky.
Speaker 1: It is funked. He doesn't even need asparagus and that's
Speaker 1: what it smells like.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I want. He probably tell me I needed to
Speaker 3: be if he tasted in my.
Speaker 1: Peet, you're pregnant upper puss there. It needs to be lobotomized.
Speaker 1: I think so.
Speaker 3: I do think, even though we're making a joke of it,
Speaker 3: that the bio system could have Well.
Speaker 1: It's like I was telling you earlier tonight, when you
Speaker 1: look at the modern day understanding of the biome system,
Speaker 1: the gut biome, the neurons that aren't just in your brain,
Speaker 1: that they're in your abdomen. A lot of this has
Speaker 1: a lot to do with like autism and other things. One,
Speaker 1: so they had an understanding. And from what you're telling me,
Speaker 1: And it's so funny that in all the research I
Speaker 1: did on Hippocrates, I was never laid back or laid back.
Speaker 1: I was never led back to ancient China.
Speaker 3: So but that's what they were doing with the acupuncture
Speaker 3: is like they were damining the fluids.
Speaker 1: Ancient Chinese medicine is practiced in all ways today, like even.
Speaker 3: Ancient Chinese medicine that somebody recommended about turning a breach baby.
Speaker 1: Yes, So my son's mom had some difficulties at the
Speaker 1: end of the pregnancy, which led her to the hospital
Speaker 1: where they gave her an ultrasound that she hadn't had
Speaker 1: one since twenty weeks, and they saw that my son
Speaker 1: was breach. So they were deciding what to do about it.
Speaker 1: They can't do a delivery, they have to do a
Speaker 1: C section. And the oldest doctor, the oldest obie at
Speaker 1: this place, like this old white, crusty dude, said, I
Speaker 1: know that about this thing that works well over eighty
Speaker 1: percent of the time, and it's an ancient Chinese remedy.
Speaker 1: And he says, go to an acupuncturist, tell them what's
Speaker 1: going on. They'll give you this incense stick called Maxia,
Speaker 1: and you get it red hot and hold it right
Speaker 1: outside her big toe, each side of her big toe
Speaker 1: for like five minutes each and it's like burning her.
Speaker 1: But as soon as we started doing it, she could
Speaker 1: feel him start to turn, and within like a week
Speaker 1: he was fully you know, head down, facing the right way.
Speaker 1: So again, and they were they were ready to schedule
Speaker 1: a sea section over this and all we had to
Speaker 1: do was burn a little fucking woo woo incense. Shit.
Speaker 3: That's why I say a lot of these people are
Speaker 3: ripping off ancient Chinese medicine.
Speaker 1: They're ripping it off. I mean he even called it that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Hippocrates may have been ripping it off, but this guy
Speaker 1: said this is an ancient Chinese remedy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm talking about Hippocrates because he's credited with the
Speaker 3: bile system.
Speaker 1: Or like Hypocrates. Yeah, hypocrite with.
Speaker 3: Titties, fucking phony tease.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I agree. It's always some affluent European person
Speaker 1: who gets the credit. I mean, he's like the Kurt
Speaker 1: Cobain of the you know, of the doctor's back.
Speaker 3: Does it make you want to get acupuncture? No, you
Speaker 3: don't have any ailments.
Speaker 1: You want to see if it fixes I mean, if
Speaker 1: it can cure my hernia.
Speaker 3: Well I doubt it. But you know who else got
Speaker 3: acupuncture and it really fixed them up?
Speaker 1: Are they them? Dexter in the news the Dog? No? Oh?
Speaker 3: In the new season?
Speaker 1: Oh Dexter. Yes he did get acupuncture. He was a
Speaker 1: little stiff from taking a chest shut. Spoiler alert for
Speaker 1: nobody who's caught.
Speaker 3: Up but if you're not caught up, you're not a
Speaker 3: true fan, because we'd be waiting for them episodes to drop.
Speaker 1: We're gonna watch the new one right after we get
Speaker 1: done recording. Yes, so happy they do sponsor the show.
Speaker 3: By the way, I would be down for a sponsored
Speaker 3: by Dexter.
Speaker 1: From Paramount Plus. How fucking dare you? They can Stephen
Speaker 1: Colbert because Trump said he's not funny.
Speaker 3: How about Persia, let's do it. You know anything about Persia?
Speaker 1: They have weird looking cats.
Speaker 3: Well, they also were not as advanced as some of
Speaker 3: the other civilizations we've talked about. They were under the
Speaker 3: assumption that everybody was possessed by the devil.
Speaker 1: Well, oh, that's more along your line of thinking.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, but I would I'm still on board with
Speaker 3: like the ancient Chinese view. It was like a little
Speaker 3: bit spiritual, little bit physical, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Pretty good e merging the two.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the Persia is pretty much behind the times.
Speaker 3: They thought that it was evil spirits and that everybody's
Speaker 3: possessed by the devil. And to release these spirits they
Speaker 3: used trepidation, which is just drilling holes in people's skull
Speaker 3: and they said it would allow the spirits to leave
Speaker 3: the body. What are your thoughts on that.
Speaker 1: I think the trepanation is interesting and I actually have
Speaker 1: a little info on it because to me, it was
Speaker 1: like the stepping stone to the lobotomy.
Speaker 3: Well, it was the ancient lobotomy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They didn't mess with the brain though. No, but
Speaker 1: if you drill yeah, like I said, this is like
Speaker 1: just the tip of the dick end. This isn't like
Speaker 1: full on lobotomy. This is yeah.
Speaker 3: But in some of these cultures that practiced trepidation, if
Speaker 3: they didn't have a way to drill a hole, they
Speaker 3: would just use a rock and scrape at your scalp
Speaker 3: and your skull until they made a bur hole. Does
Speaker 3: that sound I mean, does that sound fun to you?
Speaker 1: Uh? I don't think so. Trepening also known as trepanation, trepanation, trefening,
Speaker 1: or making a burhole with a rock if you ain't
Speaker 1: got nothing else. It says it derives from Old French
Speaker 1: and medieval Latin from Greece. Once again, they don't give
Speaker 1: the Persians their day. But this fucking went on for
Speaker 1: a long time. Yes it did. And there's a picture
Speaker 1: of a skull. I think it's kind of ironic that
Speaker 1: when you get a neuralin ink implanted in your brain,
Speaker 1: there's a robot that drills through your skull, stops just
Speaker 1: short of hitting your brain, and then they can insert
Speaker 1: the nanotech that forms the webs, connects all your neurons,
Speaker 1: or whatever the fuck that thing does. But it's interesting
Speaker 1: to me that Elon drills into people's skulls to save us,
Speaker 1: help us merge with the AI.
Speaker 3: It's like we've reverted back to ancient.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've we've taken this technocratic leap, but still incorporating
Speaker 1: the old and you call it a birhole. And Elon
Speaker 1: has the boring company raebores into the earth.
Speaker 3: That that I actually want to talk about a little
Speaker 3: bit more after this next ancient culture, So leave that up.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're attributing trepanation to ancient China.
Speaker 3: Oh, they'll give them their spotlight with the negative stuff.
Speaker 3: But how about the bio system.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and they're still not talking about persia at all.
Speaker 3: Well, good thing I did thorough research because they were
Speaker 3: definitely practicing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I gotta admit I heard about trepanation and then
Speaker 1: went right to Wikipedia.
Speaker 3: Did you really?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Well, the next culture that I have you might find interesting.
Speaker 3: Israel and the Hebrew dispera.
Speaker 1: Man, they haven't been getting any coverage in the press.
Speaker 3: Let's do it despara? Is it despara? Dispora? Yeah, dispora despara.
Speaker 1: Well, anyways, dyspora, it's spelled like dispora.
Speaker 3: I let's just say Israel and the hebrews okay uh.
Speaker 3: There are passages of the Old Testament that have been
Speaker 3: interpreted as describing mood disorders in figures, which is Job
Speaker 3: King Saul, and in the Psalms of David.
Speaker 1: I mean, these motherfuckers were literally hearing voices all the time.
Speaker 3: And in the Book of Daniel, King Nebukanesser is described
Speaker 3: as temporarily losing his sanity and eating grass and shit
Speaker 3: and thought he was a cow or something. And nobody
Speaker 3: so nobody really talks about mental illness in the Bible
Speaker 3: other than just demon possession. But I remember when I
Speaker 3: was little, there was even a song in Sunday School
Speaker 3: about King nebukan Nezer eating grass and shit and being
Speaker 3: a crazy motherfucker. So even in the Bible there is oh,
Speaker 3: and you know what, Job was a depressed asshole. But
Speaker 3: then again, his life was real shitty, so we can
Speaker 3: just imagine, but mental illness, yeah, I would say the Bible,
Speaker 3: nobody was doing any bio system or acupuncture. It was
Speaker 3: pretty much like the Persians.
Speaker 1: So yeah, prepanation basically is opening up the skull so
Speaker 1: that evil spirits can vacate the premises.
Speaker 3: I think they didn't practice that in the Old Testy.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe they did. I think they They're obsessed
Speaker 1: with circumcision and other things, but I mean in this
Speaker 1: it's talking about ways that you can do it. Rectangular intersecting, cuts, scraping,
Speaker 1: using utilizing an abrasive instrument such as flint.
Speaker 3: I told you they would.
Speaker 1: Yeah, circular grooving, boring and cutting by a circular trefen
Speaker 1: or a crown saw. Bur hole done by drilling several
Speaker 1: circle holes, and that's probably the more modern. If they're
Speaker 1: drilling closely to create a space and then cut chisel
Speaker 1: the bone between the hole.
Speaker 3: It was not a good day to be mentally ill
Speaker 3: in ancient history.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it will You're right, never really got better.
Speaker 3: So general trends in ancient views, supernatural explanations, right, spirits, deities,
Speaker 3: God's demons, treatments were rituals, prayers, exorcisms, blood letting, and trephanation. Right,
Speaker 3: but before we get into some more of the medieval treatments,
Speaker 3: I just want to talk about the potential of positive
Speaker 3: outcomes of some of these treatments. Yes, they sowned barbaric
Speaker 3: to us now, but in a way, I almost feel
Speaker 3: like pharmaceuticals are potentially more toxic and dangerous than let's say,
Speaker 3: blood letting. Yeah, I know that sounds controversial, but could
Speaker 3: it be possible that Ane, we're curing more mental illness
Speaker 3: than we are now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would I was going to say
Speaker 1: this earlier, but I think now's a good time to say.
Speaker 1: I would say the darkest shit that has happened happened
Speaker 1: after we transitioned from this belief in strictly supernatural causes
Speaker 1: to today making it a more medical issue. I would say,
Speaker 1: after we switched to that collectively, that that's when the
Speaker 1: real dark shit started happening. I agree, Oh, yeah, you
Speaker 1: might end up with a couple holes in your skull,
Speaker 1: But think about.
Speaker 3: Something like blood letting. I know that sounds horrible, what
Speaker 3: if it was curing these people?
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that a lot of the under right,
Speaker 1: I would say a lot of the basic understanding of
Speaker 1: the way the human body works is probably closer to
Speaker 1: what we're doing these days. You're talking pharmaceuticals. Uh, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't want to get into it in
Speaker 1: this episode so much. But right, there's an industry built
Speaker 1: around mental illness, which you talked about, and there's a
Speaker 1: fetishization and normalization of being mentally ill anxiety, right, I mean, look,
Speaker 1: every fucking pop star now is expected to come out
Speaker 1: with some kind of disorder and face it head on,
Speaker 1: or look at some own Biles to get back to Bile.
Speaker 1: You know who she is, Yeah, the gymnast who queathed
Speaker 1: the chance away to perform in the Olympics because she
Speaker 1: was having a mental health date, which anyway, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that just lays the ground for some conversation in
Speaker 1: the next episode. But yeah, back to your point, it
Speaker 1: could very well be that the risks and the outcomes
Speaker 1: of ancient methods of treating or confronting mental illness may
Speaker 1: seem barbaric, but if you hold it up to what
Speaker 1: we're doing today, I don't think it really does.
Speaker 3: Let me ask you this. Let's just say you had
Speaker 3: a problem mental illness problem that we'll say, you're not
Speaker 3: all the way fucking mad hatter, but you have.
Speaker 1: To do we even need to pretend.
Speaker 3: Exactly, just be yourself. And you have two options. You
Speaker 3: can go to the ancient Egyptian clinic, the ancient Chinese clinic.
Speaker 3: You can go to a modern day Laurel Wood or
Speaker 3: whatever the fuck they're called, these insane camps for people therapy, whatever,
Speaker 3: Or you can be treated by a primary care physician
Speaker 3: that has some kind of contract with who were the
Speaker 3: ones who came up with They had the Dope Sick documentary,
Speaker 3: Purdue Purdue Family, So they got a you got a
Speaker 3: primary care physician with the contract with the Purdue pharmaceuticals,
Speaker 3: you got Laurel Wood encampment, ancient Chinese or ancient egypt Well,
Speaker 3: what are you gonna go with?
Speaker 1: If I want some opiates? Obviously I go with the
Speaker 1: Purdue link.
Speaker 3: But they also had antidepressants and they had yeah, I
Speaker 3: mean the big money and the big scandal came in
Speaker 3: the painkillers, but they had their fingers and all of it.
Speaker 1: Uh, you know, obviously I'm more of a holistic guy,
Speaker 1: and I don't think serotonin and dopamine are understood as
Speaker 1: well as they have claimed it is, and I think
Speaker 1: the crap shoot that has resulted in a lot of backlash,
Speaker 1: a lot of fucking what would you call it blowback
Speaker 1: with side effects that are indirect opposition to what they're
Speaker 1: trying to do as far as treating these things with pills.
Speaker 1: And then there's the talk therapy end of it, which
Speaker 1: are a lot.
Speaker 3: Of times the Laurel Wood Encampment.
Speaker 1: A lot of time does lead to the pharmaceutical line anyway,
Speaker 1: because they often are contracted with these people as well.
Speaker 1: We're just taught that that's the way to do it,
Speaker 1: and they believe it themselves.
Speaker 3: Addition, into these encampments where you have to stay for
Speaker 3: an extended period of time and installation and you get
Speaker 3: talk therapy. But out of those four, like which one?
Speaker 3: Who are you trusting?
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm going ancient China all day. Yeah, same,
Speaker 1: give me some egg rolls on my way out the door.
Speaker 3: You know, they still have a better view on treating
Speaker 3: mental illness today in China than we do in the US.
Speaker 1: Well they better because they have a fucking whole population
Speaker 1: of subservient just fall in line because it's that or death.
Speaker 1: So they probably do have a large amount of mental illness.
Speaker 3: But they treat it differently than we do.
Speaker 1: How do they treat it currently?
Speaker 3: Well, it's less about the pharmaceuticals. I will tell you
Speaker 3: that it's not marketed to them the way it is
Speaker 3: in the US. There are literally commercials that we watch
Speaker 3: in between our Hulu shows. That's like, are you depressed?
Speaker 3: They don't have that in China.
Speaker 1: I pay for no commercials.
Speaker 3: But you know what I'm saying though, it's like it's
Speaker 3: marketed to us, like, if you're having a bad are
Speaker 3: you a little blue?
Speaker 1: Ask your doctor about after a lacreef with sauce. They
Speaker 1: don't have that. Well, it's only us in New Zealand
Speaker 1: who are allowed to advertise pharmaceuticals first of all, which
Speaker 1: is kind of random that it's New Zealand. I mean,
Speaker 1: I understand our culture and that saysn't surprise me at all.
Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about the kiwis. They share
Speaker 1: work CONTs during COVID.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well fuck them.
Speaker 1: Everybody down and that sorry Drew missing other than you.
Speaker 3: I'm just saying that I think the ancients may, even
Speaker 3: though their treatments sound barbaric, may have had a better
Speaker 3: idea of how to deal with this than we do now.
Speaker 1: Well, I think you know another angle of it is
Speaker 1: the Egyptian model might look the most appealing because they
Speaker 1: don't jump right to intervention. They are like Jordan Peterson,
Speaker 1: like clean your room, twelve rules for living, go outside,
Speaker 1: go to a concert. Yeah, take some xenax. It worked
Speaker 1: out well for me. No. They they're really about like
Speaker 1: it's an environmental dysfunction that is leading to most of
Speaker 1: this melancholy. So they exhaust all possibilities before they go
Speaker 1: to some of these drastic measures. So how about I
Speaker 1: give you a hybrid. I'd like the Egyptian model where
Speaker 1: if they still think I'm crazy after I go to
Speaker 1: a concert and do a self portrait, then I can
Speaker 1: get the Chinese remedies.
Speaker 3: Hey, there you go.
Speaker 1: So I want a little miss mixing math.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, well, and you know what about you. I
Speaker 3: I'll take what you just said.
Speaker 1: Hey you get copy me.
Speaker 3: Well it was a good it was a good idea.
Speaker 1: Okay, you can come with me to the So.
Speaker 3: Think that the Egyptians could have focused a just a
Speaker 3: little bit more like the like with ancient Chinese medicine
Speaker 3: on maybe like the acupuncture stuff, getting your organs figured out,
Speaker 3: your biosystem figured out, because you know, when you're sick,
Speaker 3: what do you do, Like when you blow in your
Speaker 3: tissue and you're like, oh, it's clear. At least I
Speaker 3: don't have an infection.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when that black when that black bile shit comes out?
Speaker 3: You've never seen black bile? Are they talking about shit?
Speaker 1: I guess because when sometimes when you get diarrhea, you
Speaker 1: get that real weird looking bile.
Speaker 3: Well, if you have blood in your stool, it can
Speaker 3: sometimes be black, you know, and yet your liver's messed up,
Speaker 3: or you have a blooded in.
Speaker 1: Your it's like a dark brown dead blood cell color,
Speaker 1: which could be interpreted as black. While sure they.
Speaker 3: They literally say look for black or bloody stools when
Speaker 3: you know, with some medical condition. Anyways, I do think
Speaker 3: there's a physical and mental aspect that needs to be addressed.
Speaker 3: But I do want to move on to medievil treatments.
Speaker 3: If you are if you're.
Speaker 1: Down medieval treatments.
Speaker 3: Starting with Europe, do you have any of.
Speaker 1: I've got a list of more modern not so modern,
Speaker 1: but way more modern than medieval. So if you want
Speaker 1: to take this one, and if I have any thing
Speaker 1: I saw I could, I could insert.
Speaker 3: Well, I would love your commentary on some of this,
Speaker 3: because Europe is really where this whole thing starts to
Speaker 3: reach a pinnacle of fucked up idness, because you know,
Speaker 3: they take all the cool stuff from all the other
Speaker 3: ancient cultures and to it they add torture to it.
Speaker 1: It's just because it's medieval. I just assume that's where
Speaker 1: we're going to basically do so because some of the
Speaker 1: ship that we're doing in more modern than I'm going
Speaker 1: to cover seems medieval. Well, I'm curious to see if
Speaker 1: there's any open.
Speaker 3: Clap or yeah, well so medieval treatments in Europe. Uh so.
Speaker 3: Conceptions of madness in the Middle Ages in Europe were
Speaker 3: a mixture of the divine, diabolical, magical, and transcendental. But
Speaker 3: they also use hippocrates theory of the four humors.
Speaker 1: Hey, you just said it was his theory. What are
Speaker 1: you doing?
Speaker 3: It's not right. They use the ancient Chinese theory of
Speaker 3: the yep. Black bio, yellow bioflm, and blood were UH
Speaker 3: used in injunction with faith healing in the Middle Ages
Speaker 3: touching hands. They also used UH treppening or whatever trepanation.
Speaker 3: The Jeff Dahmer treatment.
Speaker 1: It just depends on where you're looking. It's either treppin
Speaker 1: or trepin.
Speaker 3: They also used blood letting, whipping people to death, and burges.
Speaker 1: They're big on that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it was seen because the Middle Ages in
Speaker 3: Europe was predominantly Christian. It was seen as most likely
Speaker 3: being a spiritual issue. And so they would do the fasting,
Speaker 3: which can be beneficial, just saying fasting can be beneficial.
Speaker 3: But then they would use the whipping and then the trepidation.
Speaker 1: Is those whips like they used on Jesus with the little.
Speaker 3: The little cattails. Yeah, like in Da Vinci code. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So if none of those other treatments would work, the
Speaker 3: last ditch thing they would do is an ex So
Speaker 3: what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 1: Well, at least they tried all other options before they
Speaker 1: called in the exorcist. I guess, get your cattail whipping.
Speaker 1: If that doesn't do it, call in fucking what's his
Speaker 1: name from the exorcist?
Speaker 3: Yeah, father O'Malley.
Speaker 1: Father O'Malley's here to exercise your dam. I don't know
Speaker 1: why whenever I say father O'Malley always comes after. It's
Speaker 1: just a part of who I am.
Speaker 3: So there was a dude named Bartholomew something.
Speaker 1: Or other, poor guy for follow me something or other.
Speaker 1: You think the kids made fun of him.
Speaker 3: This was in Europe, in the Middle Ages, and he
Speaker 3: comprised an encyclopedia. It's called something or other rectum and.
Speaker 1: I'm not in another rectum. Let's do this. They propeteb
Speaker 1: tyab is a ridom. It's not even a rectum, smartass,
Speaker 1: it's r e Are you in rerum?
Speaker 3: So it's an encyclopedia.
Speaker 1: It's really that you can call her rectum.
Speaker 3: It's a rect He wrote this rectum of mental illness, okay,
Speaker 3: And he distinguished between a natural born idiot that's what
Speaker 3: they were called, and uh a lunatic. And the term
Speaker 3: lunatic was applied to those with short periods of mental
Speaker 3: disorder temporary insanity, right, deriving from.
Speaker 1: Only when the moon came out.
Speaker 3: Well, the reason he used it is because in Roman
Speaker 3: mythology they would describe people as being moonstruck by the
Speaker 3: goddess Luna.
Speaker 1: Good movie with moonstruck? Is that? Sure? Yeah?
Speaker 3: But anyways, the theory was the influence of the moon.
Speaker 3: And he said these people with short term madness were
Speaker 3: lunatics and everybody else was just a natural born idiot.
Speaker 1: Good good distinguishment, which.
Speaker 3: Brings me to the episodes of mass dancing mania, which
Speaker 3: are reported from the Middle Ages.
Speaker 1: To talk about this recently on an episode.
Speaker 3: The Dancing Man, Yeah, well it's similar to they were
Speaker 3: referred to as lunatics.
Speaker 1: But this this thing, maybe it was a cult. It
Speaker 1: might have actually been a cult conspiracy episode.
Speaker 3: I think it was were we talking about this?
Speaker 1: It wasn't It wasn't us. It was Jacob and Jonathan
Speaker 1: Shout Out Boys. They talked about it. I'm pretty fucking sure.
Speaker 1: Maybe it was Sam Tripley. I don't remember, but this
Speaker 1: was like one of the Oh I came across this
Speaker 1: when we were doing our cult.
Speaker 3: Research the Dancing play. Yes, there was a laughing one too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you remember in Legion where.
Speaker 3: They're like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: That was I think that was based on that.
Speaker 3: So, but what do you think about that there's dancing plagues,
Speaker 3: laughing plagues.
Speaker 1: I mean, well, I wasn't gonna do it in this episode,
Speaker 1: but I think collective insanity is something that is still.
Speaker 3: Rampant mass hysteria.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but even just collective insanity before like, what's
Speaker 1: his ass? Robert Malone gave it a name that the
Speaker 1: CIA told him to say, mass psychotic delusion or whatever.
Speaker 3: I think anybody knows what the fuck was really going
Speaker 3: on though, with what the dancing plague?
Speaker 1: No, that's not mass hysteria. It's legion. It's like a contagion. Yes,
Speaker 1: like I mentally agree with you. It's like little girls
Speaker 1: becoming boys because everybody in there click did it? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I heard about this and it's come up again
Speaker 1: in podcasts I've listened to. But yeah, I totally forgot
Speaker 1: about it till you mentioned it.
Speaker 3: Well, they call it mass delusion or mass hysteria, but
Speaker 3: I don't think anybody knows what the fuck was going on.
Speaker 1: Maybe they maybe they just felt like dancing.
Speaker 3: Well this this bartholomist said they were just lunatics.
Speaker 1: Botholomy is something or other coming in with the explanation
Speaker 1: the moon made them do the moon.
Speaker 3: Made him do it. But that's a little of an
Speaker 3: understanding they had about stuff.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like, when you get about it, maybe
Speaker 1: they all took ecstasy.
Speaker 3: They are were they seeing plagues in different parties?
Speaker 1: They could have been eaten sassafras, But there were.
Speaker 3: Dancing plgues with people who should have not even known
Speaker 3: about each other.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I mean, you know how my mind works,
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like mass glitch in the simulation, for some reason,
Speaker 1: groups of people all over the world just feel like dancing.
Speaker 3: Really, that's your explanation, Well, what's yours? Mine is, uh,
Speaker 3: I'm just exploring.
Speaker 1: I'm not dying on that hill.
Speaker 3: Mine is that they've been conducting experiments on small civilizations
Speaker 3: people for longer than we day, the elusive.
Speaker 1: Day, like the secret societies, the old people. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not obviously I'm not above that line of reasoning either.
Speaker 1: I think that that that's just as probable as the
Speaker 1: simulation glitch.
Speaker 3: But so that was just one form of lunacy. Obviously,
Speaker 3: the lunatics could have been anything like a random outburst,
Speaker 3: the random you know whatever. They'd be like, oh, they're
Speaker 3: a lunatic whatever. So the care of these natural born idiots,
Speaker 3: I'm guessing that that means retarded people and uh, people
Speaker 3: who had temporary madness, lounies. They were under the responsibility
Speaker 3: of their family because at the time there was nothing
Speaker 3: to do with these people. Your family had to take
Speaker 3: care of you. So there were like spiritual and visionary
Speaker 3: insights some bullshit like this, and hallucinations that these people
Speaker 3: were having. They were still thinking it was like a
Speaker 3: spiritual thing that these loonies and whatever they were trying
Speaker 3: to gain some type of insight, and the families were
Speaker 3: having to take care of them.
Speaker 1: It started to.
Speaker 3: Switch with the witch hunts because they decided that they
Speaker 3: could just kill people that were loonies and they didn't
Speaker 3: need to gain any spiritual insight from them, that it
Speaker 3: would be much easier for all of them to just die.
Speaker 1: I mean, that is, as history breathes in and out,
Speaker 1: a solution that has come up again time and time.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So at first it was like their families were
Speaker 3: taking care of them. They were trying to figure out
Speaker 3: what was wrong with them, they were trying to get
Speaker 3: some kind of spiritual insight. Then the witch hunts came about, and.
Speaker 1: Then they went to purge. Yeah.
Speaker 3: They were like, oh you're a witch, well we'll just
Speaker 3: drowned you. Oh you're a luney, well we'll just drowned you,
Speaker 3: burn you alive. Whatever, Just trying to basically take out
Speaker 3: the trash, and when that didn't work, they would take
Speaker 3: the lunatics and the idiots or whatever they were calling
Speaker 3: them to workhouses and poor houses and sometimes to these
Speaker 3: quote unquote new private mad houses. And so this is
Speaker 3: where the whole mad house thing became.
Speaker 1: It's a mad house. Yeah, I'm glad we're switching into
Speaker 1: this area because I think the story really gets interesting.
Speaker 3: With the mad houses. Yeah, me too, Right, so it
Speaker 3: goes witch hunt. Let's kill them all, just kidding. We
Speaker 3: can't kill all of them.
Speaker 1: S built filing cabinets for this.
Speaker 3: Let's build. And also if they were what they were
Speaker 3: referred to as a natural born idiot, they could still
Speaker 3: work in the workhouses and they could get some use
Speaker 3: out of them or in the poorhouses. And they were
Speaker 3: having these like mentally disabled people like building stuff around
Speaker 3: town and like not paying them.
Speaker 1: And let explain some construction.
Speaker 3: Well, no, think about it, Like what if somebody was
Speaker 3: just like barely like they were forced gup, you could
Speaker 3: get them a fucking job doing stuff.
Speaker 1: Or because you told me to drill, sergeant.
Speaker 3: So by the mid nineteenth century, there would be one
Speaker 3: hundred to five hundred inmates, as they called them, in
Speaker 3: each madhouse.
Speaker 1: Well that's an accurate description what inmates.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they weren't called patients. They weren't called they were
Speaker 3: called inmates. You know. So by the mid nineteen cent.
Speaker 1: They hadn't really cleaned up up the language yet, like.
Speaker 3: We do that. Yeah, well they're still in mass right.
Speaker 1: This is an in treatment facility. It is not a prison,
Speaker 1: even though prisons are way fucking better to go to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know a lot of cases. So the development
Speaker 3: of this network of madhouses has been linked to new capitalists,
Speaker 3: social relations, and a service economy that meant families were of.
Speaker 1: That explains McDonald's. What McDonald's. There's always a retard sweeping
Speaker 1: the floor at McDonald's.
Speaker 3: They retards at goodwill and all.
Speaker 1: Kinds of good will too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that would be their workhouse in the mid.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I'm saying, Like there's still places there. Then,
Speaker 1: well what do you think they're making well?
Speaker 3: And anyways, these these mad houses meant families were off
Speaker 3: the hook and not responsible for having to look after these.
Speaker 1: That's why cabinets. Yeah, so mad.
Speaker 3: Madness and the whole like mad houses thing suddenly became
Speaker 3: a trend and was commonly depicted in literary works, like
Speaker 3: with Shakespeare. It was kind of a fad like how
Speaker 3: it is now like everybody's got some type of mental illness.
Speaker 3: Everybody's like putting it out there. Like they were literally
Speaker 3: commercializing the mad house mid nineteenth century. And this is when,
Speaker 3: in my opinion, it went completely from therapeutic spiritualism possible
Speaker 3: you know, trepening and blood letting and prayers and all that.
Speaker 3: Forget it. When they developed the concept of the mad house,
Speaker 3: it went strictly to medicine. So this is where you
Speaker 3: can jump in how whenever you.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm kind of sad to say that we've passed
Speaker 1: the opportunity for me to talk about the wondering womb.
Speaker 1: What's the wondering Well, maybe we'll fit it in because yes,
Speaker 1: because I want to think like hysteria will come up.
Speaker 1: It does, okay, but we'll slip this article in there.
Speaker 1: But I have a lot on the mad house institution
Speaker 1: and uh thing, and I want to start here because
Speaker 1: even though when we think of these places today, we're
Speaker 1: not thinking of like a bright, cheery place, you have
Speaker 1: experiences with these places. Yes, I do you get triggered
Speaker 1: by you know?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: These and two of American's poor story and like one
Speaker 1: flew over the Cuckoo's nest. So we'll talk about all
Speaker 1: of that in episode three. So don't think we're gonna
Speaker 1: leave pop culture out of this. But I want to
Speaker 1: start with an article about the first documented mental institution,
Speaker 1: as we will call them, but they called it a
Speaker 1: psychiatric word in the article.
Speaker 3: Is this a mad house?
Speaker 1: This is a psychiatric word, the first one on record,
Speaker 1: and it was in of all places, Muslim territory in
Speaker 1: Baghdad ninth century AD. So we're going way back. And
Speaker 1: you'll be surprised by this article because I heard that
Speaker 1: the first mental institution was in Baghdad in ninth century
Speaker 1: a D. And my curiosity was piqued, so I looked
Speaker 1: into it. And this is an article from the American
Speaker 1: Journal of Psychiatry Residence Journal. That's a little that's a
Speaker 1: little redundant American Journal of Psychiatry Residence Journal. The title
Speaker 1: of the article is Mohammad ibbin Zachariah al Razzi in
Speaker 1: the first psychiatric word. Mohammed ibn Zachariah al Razzi. We're
Speaker 1: gonna have to shorten that. Let us call him moy
Speaker 1: was one of the most well known and respected physicians
Speaker 1: during the ninth century AD. Because of his revolutionary contributions
Speaker 1: to medicine and psychiatry, mo influenced several medical fields, including pharmacology, pediatrics, neurology,
Speaker 1: psychosomatic medicine, and medical ethics. He purified alcohol ethanol and
Speaker 1: pioneered its use in medicine. I mean this is ninth
Speaker 1: century AD. He rejected the notion of the mind body
Speaker 1: dichotomy and considered mental health and self esteem as significant
Speaker 1: factors that affect a person's health and well being. With
Speaker 1: the idea of sound mind in a healthy body, he
Speaker 1: was able to help many of his patients to attain
Speaker 1: complete health. He was one of the first known physicians
Speaker 1: to describe the idea of psychotherapy. He used psychotherapy in
Speaker 1: a primitive but dynamic form in his practice. Muh was
Speaker 1: born in eight sixty five AD in Al Ray, which
Speaker 1: is located located outside Tehran. During his youth, he moved
Speaker 1: to Baghdad, where he undertook medical studies and later practiced
Speaker 1: at one of the local hospitals. The governor of Ray,
Speaker 1: Monsieur ebin Eshak, later appointed him to head to hospital
Speaker 1: in Baghdad. Mul wrote two hundred and thirty seven books
Speaker 1: in his lifetime. Thirty six of which are still available today.
Speaker 1: The most popular of his writings, Liber Continents, is considered
Speaker 1: a medical encyclopedia. His books offered explanations for various mental
Speaker 1: illnesses that plague society society during the tenth century. These
Speaker 1: books also outlined symptoms and definitions, as well as differential
Speaker 1: diagnoses and treatments for debt.
Speaker 3: This was in the tenth century. Yeah, so this was
Speaker 3: even before what I got.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this goes way back, which is why I was
Speaker 1: compared held by it, because obviously this model did come back,
Speaker 1: but it was already here and left. While working as
Speaker 1: the director of hospital in Baghdad, Mo introduced the concept
Speaker 1: of psychiatric words as a place to care for patients
Speaker 1: with mental illness. According to his views, mental disorders should
Speaker 1: be considered and treated as medical conditions. He conducted very
Speaker 1: detailed clinical observations of patients with psychiatric conditions and provided
Speaker 1: treatment with diet, medication, occupational therapy, aroma therapy, baths, and
Speaker 1: music therapy. Additionally, he practiced an early form of cognitive
Speaker 1: therapy for obsessive behavior. Mo described depression as a melancholic,
Speaker 1: obsessive compulsive disorder which is triggered as a result of
Speaker 1: changes of blood flow in the brain. He stated that
Speaker 1: physicians should always try to convince their patients of the
Speaker 1: possibility of improvement in their condition, as well as hope
Speaker 1: in the effectiveness of treatment. As part of this charge planning,
Speaker 1: patients were given a sum of money to help with
Speaker 1: their immediate needs and their transition back into society. To
Speaker 1: our knowledge, this is the first recorded reference to psychiatric aftercare.
Speaker 1: Moe believed that physicians should be modest, soft spoken, and
Speaker 1: gentle when communicating with their patients to ease the anxiety
Speaker 1: of receiving unfavorable views and unfavorable news. He stressed the
Speaker 1: importance of communicating with patients on a personal level, rather
Speaker 1: than simply making them aware of their illness. He used
Speaker 1: a cheerful countenance and encouraged words to instill in patients
Speaker 1: the hope of recovery. Both psychiatric residents and trainees alike
Speaker 1: can learn from Moe's approach to serving patients with compassion
Speaker 1: and an understanding. He is a valuable source of inspiration
Speaker 1: from the history of psychiatry with his original work and
Speaker 1: distinct style.
Speaker 3: Well, that's nothing like what I was going to talk about.
Speaker 1: No, I just wanted to insert this because we're talking
Speaker 1: about the first documented psychiatric word slash institutions.
Speaker 3: He's going off of like what we talked about with
Speaker 3: the Egyptians and the Chinese, like taking care of people.
Speaker 1: And he's even before that move into like an intreatment,
Speaker 1: just before.
Speaker 3: The move into what I was going to bring.
Speaker 1: Up, well nineteen but yeah, what I'm saying, and I
Speaker 1: think I think it's important that we show a success
Speaker 1: from well, yeah, that fucking long ago, because.
Speaker 3: That you were about to read the Horrides.
Speaker 1: Thing when I and I'll just say this is my
Speaker 1: preconceived bias. When I saw bag Dad ninth century a D.
Speaker 1: I was expecting torture chambers, which is more for the Yeah,
Speaker 1: come up, and that's more akin to what we have today.
Speaker 1: Just to show you that fucking what, nine hundred years
Speaker 1: after Christ they had this shit figured out in the
Speaker 1: fucking Middle East.
Speaker 3: Well, that's very interesting and.
Speaker 1: We're still working our way back to that. I mean,
Speaker 1: he even had like a government social program for these
Speaker 1: people when they let them give them money.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but why do you think if that was if
Speaker 3: that happened in the tenth century, when we get to
Speaker 3: the nineteenth century, it's a complete contrast.
Speaker 1: Well, I'll just sum it up with the last paragraph.
Speaker 1: Whoever wrote this article said both psychiatric residents and trainees
Speaker 1: alike can learn from his approach to serving patients with
Speaker 1: compassion and understanding, and that was not present in these
Speaker 1: institutions that we're going to get into today. And I mean,
Speaker 1: I think that contributing factors are a mile high. The
Speaker 1: economy of the time, the mental attitude of.
Speaker 3: Took a nose dive after that as a society.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, let's get into it, because I have
Speaker 1: an article. It's not even an article, it's just basically
Speaker 1: a chart that shows when this shit came to America.
Speaker 1: But I think you're gonna start talking about like kind
Speaker 1: of Europe and shit first, right with the madhouses.
Speaker 3: Well, because well, let me just start with this. What
Speaker 3: that article you just read that was the tenth century.
Speaker 3: Right by the time we get to the nineteenth century,
Speaker 3: we've taken a fucking nosedive into the abyss.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're talking a thousand years. I'm just saying, like,
Speaker 1: we could have figured, we could.
Speaker 3: Have had the chance to figure this out, and we
Speaker 3: just always fuck ourselves.
Speaker 1: The compassion and the understanding and the model is absent.
Speaker 3: So by the uh nineteenth century, these public asylums, as
Speaker 3: they were called, were absolutely barbaric. The most popular, most
Speaker 3: notable one is called bedlam. Had you ever heard of it?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So they would actually let spectators pay a penny to
Speaker 3: watch inmates be tortured as some form of entertainment.
Speaker 1: Not shocked.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna dive a little bit further into that when
Speaker 3: we get to talking about the asylums themselves. But so
Speaker 3: the nineteenth century, in the context of industrialation, industrialization, and
Speaker 3: population growth, saw a massive expansion of the number and
Speaker 3: size of insane asylums in every Western country, in a
Speaker 3: process called the Great Confinement or the Asylum Era. So
Speaker 3: that's when it came to the US. Is that what
Speaker 3: you got?
Speaker 1: I have seventeen fifty two?
Speaker 3: So is that in the nineteenth century.
Speaker 1: Nineteenth century would be like eighteen hundreds.
Speaker 3: Really, Yeah, So that's what I got was the Asylum era.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the Asylum era is eighteen ninety, so we're
Speaker 1: talking ten years before the nineteenth or the Yeah, let
Speaker 1: me just break this down because if we're moving into
Speaker 1: America now, which it looks like we are on your notes. Yes,
Speaker 1: so this is from the National Library of Medicine. It
Speaker 1: is a dot gov website, so do with that with
Speaker 1: what you will. This is the timeline of early psychiatric
Speaker 1: hospitals and asylums. The mentally ill and early America communities
Speaker 1: were generally cared for by family members. However, in severe
Speaker 1: cases they sometimes ended up in almshouses or jails. Because
Speaker 1: mental illness was generally thought to be caused by a
Speaker 1: moral or spiritual failing, punishment and shame were often handed
Speaker 1: down to the menially ill and sometimes their families as well.
Speaker 1: As the population grew in certain areas became more densely settled,
Speaker 1: mental illness became one of the number became one of
Speaker 1: a number of social issues for which community institutions were
Speaker 1: created in order to handle the needs of individuals collectively.
Speaker 1: So we have seventeen fifty two in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. The
Speaker 1: Quakers in Philly were the first in America to make
Speaker 1: an organized effort to care for the menially ill. The
Speaker 1: newly opened Pennsylvania Hospital in Philly provided rooms in the basement,
Speaker 1: complete with shackles attached to the walls, to house a
Speaker 1: small number of mentally ill patients. Within a year or two,
Speaker 1: the Press for admissions required additional space, and award was
Speaker 1: opened beside the hospital. Eventually, a new Pennsylvania hospital for
Speaker 1: the insane was opened in a suburb in eighteen fifty
Speaker 1: six and remained opened under different names until nineteen ninety eight.
Speaker 1: Then we moved to seventeen seventy three Williamsburg, Virginia, to
Speaker 1: deal with mentally disturbed people who were causing problems in
Speaker 1: the community. The Virginia legislature provided funds to build a
Speaker 1: small hospital in Williamsburg. Over the years, the hospital grew
Speaker 1: in size as needs arose, but remained within the historic
Speaker 1: area of the city until the mid twentieth century, when
Speaker 1: a new hospital was built in a suburb. Today it
Speaker 1: is the Eastern State Hospital.
Speaker 3: It's still open. Yeah, I bet it's haunted.
Speaker 1: Seventeen ninety two in New York, New York, the New
Speaker 1: York Hospital opened a ward for curable insane patients. In
Speaker 1: eighteen oh eight, a free standing medical facility was built
Speaker 1: nearby for the humane treatment of the mentally ill, and
Speaker 1: in eighteen twenty one, a larger facility called the blooming
Speaker 1: Dell Asylum was built in in what is now the
Speaker 1: Upper West Side the Uppavast Side in eighteen ninety four,
Speaker 1: it has moved further away to the suburb of White
Speaker 1: Plains and it is currently under opper is the Paine
Speaker 1: Whitney Westchester Hospital, a division of the New York Hospital
Speaker 1: Cornell Whale Medical Center.
Speaker 3: All of these places were, despite the description, completely brutal
Speaker 3: to this.
Speaker 1: Well, it didn't hold back. In the Philadelphia well, they.
Speaker 3: All were doing it.
Speaker 1: It was complete with shackles attached to the walls.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Eighteen seventeen, Philadelphia were going back to Philly. In Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: the Asylum for the Relief of Persons Deprived of the
Speaker 1: use of their reason. They really worded up, yeah, was
Speaker 1: opened under Quaker auspices as a private mental hospitals. It
Speaker 1: continues to serve this function to this day as the
Speaker 1: Friends Hospital. Come hang out with your friends. You can
Speaker 1: have a warm glass of shit. The hell app eighteen
Speaker 1: twenty four, Julia's home state of Lexington, Kentucky. The Eastern
Speaker 1: Don a tick asylum that's a little less worthy than
Speaker 1: the last one, was opened in Lexington, KY as the
Speaker 1: first mental institution west of the Appalachians. It still operates
Speaker 1: today under the name Eastern State Hospital. And then we
Speaker 1: go to eighteen ninety with a broad sweeping statement all
Speaker 1: across America. By eighteen ninety, every state had built one
Speaker 1: or more publicly supported mental hospitals, which all expanded in
Speaker 1: size as the country's population increased. By mid twentieth century,
Speaker 1: the hospitals housed over half a million patients, but began
Speaker 1: to diminish in a size as new methods of treatment
Speaker 1: became available.
Speaker 3: Because this is what I'm talking about with the asylum
Speaker 3: era stuff. They were beating people, whipping them, they were
Speaker 3: chaining them up, they were starving them. I mean, I
Speaker 3: know that article made it just sound like, Oh, they
Speaker 3: opened hospitals and they were they were awful to those people. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then if we get into some of the reasons
Speaker 1: that you could have to go to one of these places,
Speaker 1: it starts to ga even more bleak.
Speaker 3: Uh Yeah, like being.
Speaker 1: Gay, having a father who's an alcoholic, being black, Yeah, Kanye.
Speaker 3: But actually it's during this era, thence the asylum era
Speaker 3: eighteen seventy six to eighteen eighty, that the notion of
Speaker 3: female hysteria became popularized. Are you familiar with female hysteria
Speaker 3: and its treatment?
Speaker 1: Do you have any answer that?
Speaker 3: Honestly, no, let me just say what it is, because
Speaker 3: I think I told you already. But so, the hysteria
Speaker 3: was a medical diagnosis given to women exhibiting a wide
Speaker 3: range of symptoms, including anxiety, depression, moods, wings, headaches, and
Speaker 3: even fainting spells anxiety. The term itself derived from the
Speaker 3: Greek word hysteria, meaning uterus. Uh. It was believed to
Speaker 3: be linked to a woman's reproductive system and its wandering imbalances.
Speaker 1: And you said you didn't have this in your notes. No,
Speaker 1: this is wandering. Yeah, yeah, you just said the uterus
Speaker 1: and it's wandering in quotes or imbalances. So you know
Speaker 1: about the wandering uterus?
Speaker 3: Is it the same?
Speaker 1: Did you read that right there? It is believed to
Speaker 1: be linked to a woman's reproductive system, the uterus, and
Speaker 1: it's wandering or imbalances. Yes, so I have the wandering.
Speaker 3: But what you're talking about You said it was ancient
Speaker 3: Egypt or something.
Speaker 1: No, I said that Hippocrates talked about it. Well, this
Speaker 1: was way act so, but they did look into it
Speaker 1: back then, and I'll give an overview. I mean I
Speaker 1: could pull up the article, but it's kind of seered
Speaker 1: into my brain.
Speaker 3: God.
Speaker 1: Well, back in Hippocrates days. They fucking talked about how
Speaker 1: everybody thought the uterus was like a living bean inside
Speaker 1: of another bean, and they thought it was like an
Speaker 1: animal that roamed and it was enticed by certain smells.
Speaker 1: So like an overact of person's uterus was said to
Speaker 1: have wondered too high, and they would entice it with
Speaker 1: pleasant smells to get it back into the upper puss area.
Speaker 1: And then oh my, if a woman was lethargic or
Speaker 1: you know, not following orders, her uterus was said to
Speaker 1: have wandered too low, so they'd put the enticing smells
Speaker 1: down by the puss and try to get it come
Speaker 1: back up. So this wondering uterus thing did originate a
Speaker 1: long time ago, but they did bring it back.
Speaker 3: Why does everybody think?
Speaker 1: So that makes more sense about what you're about to
Speaker 1: talk about. It's also like that theovont coult we were
Speaker 1: talking about, what where they would like give them massages
Speaker 1: and then give him a finger finish.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, what is all these ancient cultures And even
Speaker 3: in the eighteen eighties, it's like, oh, women are so crazy.
Speaker 3: It's they're uterine.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is the missing link.
Speaker 3: But so the treatment for the female hysteria was a
Speaker 3: pelvic massage.
Speaker 1: A front rub, hashtrag, what's his name?
Speaker 3: There is something I want to talk about with this.
Speaker 3: It was part of a conversation we were having.
Speaker 1: But you need a front rub?
Speaker 3: No but so. Victorian doctors, sometimes assisted by midwives, performed
Speaker 3: manual stimulation of female patients genitals to induce a hysterical paroxysm,
Speaker 3: which is now recognized as an orgasm.
Speaker 1: I prefer the term hysterical parocism over female orgasm. That's
Speaker 1: a myth.
Speaker 3: So this was supposed to alleviate hysteria, but as demand
Speaker 3: for this treatment increase, doctors reportedly grew tired and developed
Speaker 3: early vibrating devices to assist in the process. And these
Speaker 3: devices were initially marketed as medical tools before transitioning to
Speaker 3: personal use and so out of the asylum era, one
Speaker 3: good thing came out of it, So fellers, the vibrator.
Speaker 1: If you come home late at night after working your
Speaker 1: ass off for ten days solid and you see your
Speaker 1: ladies vibrator plugged in, that bitch is crazy.
Speaker 3: It's a medical device.
Speaker 1: Hysteria.
Speaker 3: I have hysteria.
Speaker 1: Fucking what's it called self medication?
Speaker 3: You should feel sorry for me that I have a
Speaker 3: medical problem.
Speaker 1: I was talking hypothetical. Did that never happened to us?
Speaker 3: Right, you're right, that never happened. But you remember what
Speaker 3: you said? You said, can you imagine what the Victorian
Speaker 3: era puss smelled like?
Speaker 1: That had nothing to do with this, Yes, it was.
Speaker 3: You said, can you imagine? Oh no, you said, the
Speaker 3: reason that they had hysteria is because in the Victorian
Speaker 3: era their husbands were too pump chumps and they weren't
Speaker 3: going down on them because Victorian puss smelled Bud.
Speaker 1: I think you're tying a lot of different parts of
Speaker 1: conversations together.
Speaker 3: Are you sure. I'm pretty sure. It's when we were talking,
Speaker 3: I said, have you ever heard about I.
Speaker 1: Said that the husbands were too pump chumps.
Speaker 3: That's why they had hysteria.
Speaker 1: That's why they never got off. Yeah, hysteria could just
Speaker 1: be labeled sexual or exprustration sctual frustration. They didn't have
Speaker 1: the vibrating hogs back then. You had to use like
Speaker 1: a stick, go find a perfectly shaped carrot in.
Speaker 3: The fridge, masturbated like, just as.
Speaker 1: Long as humans have been around, masturbation has been a thing.
Speaker 1: Male masturbation, though all across the board, female male them's
Speaker 1: these they.
Speaker 3: Have to go to the clinic because.
Speaker 1: It's just not the same unless someone else is doing it.
Speaker 3: Anyways, I think Victorian posts probably smelled better than modern
Speaker 3: day puss. That's all I'm saying.
Speaker 1: If you could get past the pubic care, which hey,
Speaker 1: I'm not against the pibes.
Speaker 3: You know, it's supposed to be there for cleanliness reasons. Pubes, Yeah,
Speaker 3: to keep stuff out.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, those critters, Yeah, they get distracted by the jungle.
Speaker 3: That's that's what they say.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: Anyways, they sure had a heck of a lot cleaner diet.
Speaker 1: Than we have now, and the other pH was probably
Speaker 1: a little bit more on point without all the refined
Speaker 1: sugars and well.
Speaker 3: Also, what I was saying to you is, if you've
Speaker 3: ever been into a public women's restroom, you will know
Speaker 3: that there's no way a Victorian puss could smell worse
Speaker 3: than a twenty twenty five puss.
Speaker 1: It's insane, a.
Speaker 3: Homeless twenty twenty five puss and all they eat is
Speaker 3: like McDonald's and Taco bell and then they go into
Speaker 3: the public restrooms to clean up. Smell one of those
Speaker 3: pusses and tell me if you'd not rather have a Victorian.
Speaker 3: Feel like we've strayed, good, all right, So we're talking
Speaker 3: about the asylum era. So it was also around this
Speaker 3: time numerous different classification schemes and diagnostic terms were developed
Speaker 3: by different authorities taking an increasingly anatomical clinical descriptive approach.
Speaker 3: And this is when the term psychiatry was coined. Which
Speaker 3: they're saying that it wasn't until the nineteenth century that
Speaker 3: the term psychiatry was coined, but your article was from
Speaker 3: the tenth century.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they were saying his approach falls under the psychiatry,
Speaker 1: even though they weren't calling it that back then. They
Speaker 1: were calling it baclava Muhammad Ali. Yeah, No, they weren't
Speaker 1: calling it psychiatry. But they're just pointing out that they
Speaker 1: clearly were practicing it, even though they didn't have the
Speaker 1: same name for it.
Speaker 3: So in this era, the asylum superintendents later were renamed psychiatrists,
Speaker 3: and they were they used to be called alienists because
Speaker 3: they were thought to deal with people alienated from society,
Speaker 3: but then they later became known as psychiatrists. But they
Speaker 3: didn't actually have any medical training. They were just asylum superintendents.
Speaker 1: They're tratchet Yeah.
Speaker 3: And that was the first psychiatrists. But so in the
Speaker 3: United States, it was proposed that black slaves who tried
Speaker 3: to escape had a mental disorder termed drape domainia drape domania,
Speaker 3: which is the belief that slavery was such an improvement
Speaker 3: upon the lives of slaves that only those suffering from
Speaker 3: some form of mental illness would try to escape. So
Speaker 3: what was the treatment for drape domania.
Speaker 1: Whippings?
Speaker 3: Uh to death.
Speaker 1: Actually, well, that'll cure it.
Speaker 3: Because apparently the you know, the treatment worked because they
Speaker 3: never received any.
Speaker 1: Complaints and they never ran again. Good cures all around.
Speaker 3: But this is what you were talking about when you
Speaker 3: said it became a little bit blurry as to why
Speaker 3: people were getting admitted into the asylums. So if a
Speaker 3: black slave tried to run away, they would say he
Speaker 3: had drape domania and whip him to death in an asylum.
Speaker 1: Or if a woman didn't have dinner on the table
Speaker 1: when her husband got home for work, she was hysterical.
Speaker 1: So we will talk about once you get into these places,
Speaker 1: good luck get now.
Speaker 3: Literally the slaves were just taken there to die and
Speaker 3: they would say they had drake domania. So this is
Speaker 3: where I was saying I agree with you. The line
Speaker 3: between an it's insane person and just somebody you're trying
Speaker 3: to get rid of. That line started to blur big
Speaker 3: time during this era.
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people would call other people mentally
Speaker 1: insane if they just wanted to get them put away,
Speaker 1: Like enemies could call you insane, and if they were
Speaker 1: convincing enough, you were put in the filing cabinet.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So in Nazi Germany, the institutionalized mentally ill were
Speaker 3: among the earliest targets of sterilization campaigns and covert euthanasia programs.
Speaker 3: They should have been inducted into the Church of Euthanasia.
Speaker 3: It's been estimated that over two hundred thousand individuals with
Speaker 3: mental disorders of all kinds were put to death all
Speaker 3: the so their mass murder has received relatively little historical attention.
Speaker 3: And this is during the asylum era. So and now,
Speaker 3: of course, Nazi Germany, are you kidding me? That was
Speaker 3: like they already had like the death camps that was
Speaker 3: for the Jews and the whatever. Whatever. It's like, if
Speaker 3: they just don't like you, they'll put.
Speaker 1: You in a Yeah. I mean, well, I hate to
Speaker 1: piss people off, but Jewish people like to have a
Speaker 1: monopoly on what was going on back then, and they
Speaker 1: were a part of it, no doubt about it. But
Speaker 1: it was more of people over here funding a huge experiment. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we can go to the Bush family and all of
Speaker 1: the central banks funding this Nazi research that may not
Speaker 1: have even been Nazi research, but they did take the
Speaker 1: fall for it. There were camps, and yeah, I wasn't
Speaker 1: just Jewish people. It was gay people, it was mentally
Speaker 1: ill people, anybody who looked funnier, sounded funnier, you could,
Speaker 1: you could end up in a place like this.
Speaker 3: So they literally had establishments for everyone eth asia programs,
Speaker 3: they had sterilization programs.
Speaker 1: And it's almost like these concentration camps were a more
Speaker 1: honest representation of what the mental institutions were doing too.
Speaker 1: But it was a state sanctioned torture program, and yeah,
Speaker 1: it continues to this day. So yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: would say a lot of the treatments probably came right
Speaker 1: out of that Nazierra.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sterilization, euthanasia, whipping, beating, change.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a starving. There's a fuzzy line when
Speaker 1: it comes to the history of the lobotomy, but I
Speaker 1: guarantee you they tried to perfect in these camps.
Speaker 3: Okay, well I get that's the next thing I was,
Speaker 3: did you have anything.
Speaker 1: For Well, yeah, I want to get into some of
Speaker 1: these methods and we're going to finish on the lobotomy
Speaker 1: and then we can swing it back to you. Okay,
Speaker 1: but I have two short articles to read. This one
Speaker 1: is from Saint Finnshospital dot com. Yeah, this just might
Speaker 1: be some weird publication, but it's Saint Finnan's Hospital in
Speaker 1: Killarney in Ireland. Looking back at some of the treatments.
Speaker 1: You mean doing any Irish accent, I'd rather not looking back.
Speaker 1: Here's my white guy accent. Looking back at some of
Speaker 1: the treatments that were used to treat the mentally ill
Speaker 1: in Ireland can be quite shocking. Usually there was a
Speaker 1: rationale that drove the treatment strategy strategy, but today many
Speaker 1: seem barbaric, dangerous, if not downright torturous. This article is
Speaker 1: going to describe one of the homegrown treatments that gained
Speaker 1: international use. William Saunders o'halahan o'halahan oh Hallaran was a
Speaker 1: Cork physician who was the Medical Superintendent at the County
Speaker 1: and City of Cork Lunatic Asylum for forty years. In
Speaker 1: the early eighteen hundreds, he invented a circulating a circulating
Speaker 1: swing to induce sleep in control over individuals with acute
Speaker 1: mania or of obstinate nature. The patient was strapped into
Speaker 1: a chair or hammock and swung around at a rate
Speaker 1: of one hundred revolutions per minute, giving a massive rush
Speaker 1: of blood to the head, intensifying emotions as anxiety and fear,
Speaker 1: and causing physical symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, urination that
Speaker 1: means pissing, and sometimes brain hemorrhage. No Biggie Holleran, being
Speaker 1: a cute Corkman, realized that some of the mentally ill
Speaker 1: patients just enjoyed the experience of the swinging and the
Speaker 1: fun of being on it improved the mood. Therefore, Holleran
Speaker 1: widened the use of the swing to a wider insanity diagnosis.
Speaker 3: Show the picture on the screen.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it'll pick it up. Way there
Speaker 1: I go.
Speaker 3: Nice.
Speaker 1: Halleran put together a catalog of treatments that he used
Speaker 1: at the Lunatic Asylum in Cork and published the descriptions
Speaker 1: with illustrations. Now I'm gonna fast forward This is another
Speaker 1: method that comes up a lot in like the tortuous ways.
Speaker 1: It's called hydrotherapy. Sounds like it'd be nice. Well, you
Speaker 1: could go to the sauna, get your cold plunge in right.
Speaker 1: Hydro Therapy was a popular method of This is from
Speaker 1: Restoring Perspective Life and treatment at the London Asylum. Hydro
Speaker 1: Therapy was ap their method of treatment for mental illness
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the twentieth century and was used
Speaker 1: at many institutions, including the London Asylum for the insane.
Speaker 1: Water was thought to be an effected treatment because it
Speaker 1: could be heated or cooled to different temperatures, which, when
Speaker 1: applied to the skin, could produce various reactions throughout the
Speaker 1: rest of the body. One of the main benefits of
Speaker 1: hydrotherapy treatment was its ability to take effect quickly. Hydrotherapy
Speaker 1: could be accomplished with baths, packs, or sprays. Orm Continuous
Speaker 1: baths were used to treat patients suffering from insomnia, those
Speaker 1: considered to be a suicidal and assultive and calm excited
Speaker 1: and agitated behavior. A patient could expect a continuous bath
Speaker 1: treatment to last from several hours to several days, or
Speaker 1: sometimes even even overnight. Continuous baths were the most effective.
Speaker 1: One held in a quiet room with little light and
Speaker 1: audio stimulation, thus allowing the patient to relax and possibly
Speaker 1: even fall asleep. Bath temperatures typically range from ninety two
Speaker 1: to night ninety seven as so as not to cause injury.
Speaker 1: Packs consisted of sheets dipped in various temperatures of water,
Speaker 1: which were then wrapped around the patient for several hours,
Speaker 1: depending on the case. Sprays functioned like showers and used
Speaker 1: either warm or cold water. Cold water was used to
Speaker 1: treat patients diagnosed with manic depressive psychoses and those showing
Speaker 1: signs of excitement and increased motor activity. Application of cold
Speaker 1: water slowed down blood flowed the brain, decreasing mental and
Speaker 1: physical activity. The temperature for a cold pack arranged from
Speaker 1: forty eight degrees to seventy degrees. Hydrotherapy was used throughout
Speaker 1: the earliest century at the London Asylum for the insane.
Speaker 3: I've seen this though in movies.
Speaker 1: Old packs. No hydrotherapy, What about the sheets? No?
Speaker 3: But I will tell you it's nothing like what they're
Speaker 3: describing right there.
Speaker 1: Well, this seems to be in favor of right, This
Speaker 1: gets pretty fucking dark. So this is from new histories, lobotomy,
Speaker 1: insulin coma therapy, electric shock, and cortisol, the miracle cures
Speaker 1: question mark.
Speaker 3: Well, I got a lot to talk about lobotomis.
Speaker 1: Well, this is going to be the segue into the lobotomy.
Speaker 3: But I just wanted to let you know. The hydrotherapy,
Speaker 3: from what I have seen depicted, is nothing like that description. Okay,
Speaker 3: they would put you in a tank with boiling hot water.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like they would do extremes. Yeah, old
Speaker 1: and hot, but.
Speaker 3: They would zipper you up in there, and then they
Speaker 3: would like so you couldn't get out, and they would
Speaker 3: leave you in there. It's apparently for hours or days.
Speaker 1: Or well, that article was very weirdly worded and it
Speaker 1: said from one day to several days, sometimes even overnight. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: days implies many overnights, many overnight.
Speaker 3: But yeah, they would you couldn't get out. It wasn't
Speaker 3: like you were just soaking in the tub with some
Speaker 3: rose petals and some fucking basalts. They would just boil
Speaker 3: you for days or freeze you with just your head
Speaker 3: sticking out.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Me, anybody knows you're getting a hot tub for
Speaker 1: over an hour you're hydrated. Yeah, especially you've been drinking
Speaker 1: a little briskies.
Speaker 3: Anyways, just wanted to throw that out there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I'd never have seen it done other
Speaker 1: than in movies, so I'm not sure. But the one
Speaker 1: that got me was getting these sheets at different temperatures
Speaker 1: of water and wrapping them around people. I mean, imagine
Speaker 1: if you had like a claustrophobic.
Speaker 3: Patient, Well, imagine just your head sticking out of the
Speaker 3: tub and getting boiled for days.
Speaker 1: Yeah. All right, So this again is called the bottomy,
Speaker 1: Insulin coma therapy, electroshock, and cortisol the miracle cures question mark.
Speaker 1: In nineteen thirty six, Antonio Egasimonies proposed the lobotomy, a
Speaker 1: form of brain surgery that physicians believed provide a cure
Speaker 1: for the baffling condition of schizophrenia. According to Reputable Medical Journal,
Speaker 1: the lancet, a long, hollow needle to which is attached
Speaker 1: to a loop of strong wire, was inserted into the
Speaker 1: brain and blindly rotated to cut a core of the
Speaker 1: white substance in the prefrontal cortex. This description causes extreme
Speaker 1: discomfort for the modern day reader. With what we know today,
Speaker 1: it is clear that the only thing the surgery achieved
Speaker 1: was extensive brain damage in patients for contemporaries, however, this
Speaker 1: was considered an innovative miracle cure. In fact, the treatment
Speaker 1: was so acclaimed it won Igasimuns a Nobel Prize in
Speaker 1: nineteen forty nine, thirteen after his first conception of the idea,
Speaker 1: botomy will mostly widely condemned today. Was not the only
Speaker 1: questionable treatment to emerge in the early twentieth century. A
Speaker 1: less well known but equally unfruitful treatment was insulin coma therapy,
Speaker 1: first introduced by Manfried J. Sakel in nineteen twenty seven.
Speaker 1: The patient was injected with insulin over six days, inducing
Speaker 1: regular comas aka hypoglycemia for two or three hour periods.
Speaker 1: This was This approach risked and irreversible coma, brain damage,
Speaker 1: and even death the lancet ict in. The lancet ict,
Speaker 1: which is insulin coma therapy, was often used as a
Speaker 1: comparison point for newer methods, a demonstration of the authority
Speaker 1: it managed to achieve in this period. A drug that
Speaker 1: is less readily accepted but still prominent in medical text
Speaker 1: was cortisol treatment or metrizol in the US injectoring cortisol
Speaker 1: induced an epileptic fit and patient. It's based on medical
Speaker 1: belief that epilepsy and schizophrenia could not occur together, so
Speaker 1: they thought if you were epileptic, you couldn't have schizophrenia,
Speaker 1: so they made you epileptic. That's not funny. I don't
Speaker 1: know why I'm laughing.
Speaker 3: Well, it's hilarious, actually. I mean, this is why I
Speaker 3: said the asylum era was the end of spirituality in
Speaker 3: the beginning of everything's just.
Speaker 1: Medicine, and that's just That's when I also said that
Speaker 1: it started to get really fucking dark. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I'd take a couple chunks of skull out
Speaker 1: of my head over this shit.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying. Little blood letting, come on. I
Speaker 3: you know, before I was pregnant, I let blood out
Speaker 3: all the time. It helped with my hysteria apparently.
Speaker 1: Okay, so yeah, they believe that schizophrenia couldnot occur with
Speaker 1: epilepsy in one person. Far less research existed in support
Speaker 1: for this therapy, but as it was cheaper then ict
Speaker 1: was in regular use. Due to immensephere expressed by patients
Speaker 1: that underwent this treatment, Cortisol injections were soon replaced with
Speaker 1: electroshock therapy, still in use today. In its early days,
Speaker 1: electroshock therapy was significantly more dangerous than it is now.
Speaker 1: Ugo Serletti's original method involved placing electrobes on the temple
Speaker 1: of the patient. Patient shocked with eighty or ninety volts
Speaker 1: to produce an epileptic fit. It is interesting that this
Speaker 1: was the lowest somatic treatment to gain credibility, considered far
Speaker 1: inferior to the insulin one. Clearly, these treatments did not
Speaker 1: work and even crueled by today's standards. So why did
Speaker 1: contemporaries hold them into such high esteem. The answer is
Speaker 1: two fold. Psychiatrists in this period aspired to achieve legitimate
Speaker 1: medical status, forced to make their approaches more scientific to
Speaker 1: gain approval. Of course, by today's standards, sematic treatments were
Speaker 1: not scientific at all. However, being scientific had different criteria
Speaker 1: criteria for temporaries, with less of a focus on objectivity
Speaker 1: in favor of empirical evidence. Research was largely in the
Speaker 1: use form of the case study, which at the time
Speaker 1: was perfectly acceptable in medical circles. One article even comprised
Speaker 1: of a letter from a lobotomy patient himself, posing the
Speaker 1: questions what use was it to live at all? If
Speaker 1: one was only half alive? The value of empirical evidence
Speaker 1: and research is clear, as the patient's subjective first time
Speaker 1: account was lauded in an esteemed medical journal. Outside of
Speaker 1: psychiatric profession, it was still widely held that psychosomatic treatments worked.
Speaker 1: This belief is understandable after considering that the definition of
Speaker 1: being cured was also differed in the historical context. In
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, an article in The Lancet declared with
Speaker 1: glee that young schizophrenics no longer filled the hospitals. In
Speaker 1: many ways, this was a marked improvement to a patient's
Speaker 1: quality of life, the alternative being oblique lifetime in a
Speaker 1: hospital to weigh out the illness. If a patient was
Speaker 1: able to cope in their community, they were in much
Speaker 1: better situation than if they were detained in a mental war. Furthermore,
Speaker 1: hospitals were expensive, which made mentally ill. Being mentally ill
Speaker 1: a great burden in ways that are not today. If
Speaker 1: the outcomes of psychosomatic treatments are weighed up against the
Speaker 1: realities of the time, it is easy to understand why
Speaker 1: contemporary so willingly accepted these treatments as the cure for schizophrenia.
Speaker 1: Our perceptions of the past are often shaded by the
Speaker 1: standards of the modern day. I'm not even to finish
Speaker 1: reading the last few sentences. These guys totally just like said, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was horrible, it was torturous, but you know what,
Speaker 1: they just did what they had to do in the time.
Speaker 3: They admitted it's gonna say, whoever wrote this article sucks.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're shilling, but they are, but they do give
Speaker 1: a good information. Then they just turned tail.
Speaker 3: Okay, but that's not I mean, they're like, what they're
Speaker 3: not also saying is that the reason why electroshock therapy
Speaker 3: is still used today is that's the reason they were
Speaker 3: using it back then. Okay, and it's at a much
Speaker 3: lesser voltage by the way, No, it's it still doesn't work.
Speaker 3: What I'm saying, though, is they're still allowed to use it,
Speaker 3: but they've had to like tone it down to like
Speaker 3: a fucking little zap. What they were doing with electroshock
Speaker 3: therapy back then was shooting excessive volts of electric into
Speaker 3: your brain hole.
Speaker 1: So I doubt they even do lobotomies anymore. They were
Speaker 1: out on the level.
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing about lobotomis and I'll try to
Speaker 3: sum it up quick because I know we've been at
Speaker 3: this for a while now, but it's all a very
Speaker 3: important information. The guy that you just mentioned, Antonio Monez.
Speaker 3: You ever seen a picture of him? No, he looks
Speaker 3: like sloths from the Goodies. The motherfucker looks like he
Speaker 3: needs a lobotomy anyway.
Speaker 1: Maybe he tested it on himself first.
Speaker 3: He's the originator of the botomy. But a lot of
Speaker 3: people don't know this, but the procedure of the lobotomy
Speaker 3: was modified and what they called championed and perfected quote
Speaker 3: unquote by a dude named Walter Freeman.
Speaker 1: Okay, Walter.
Speaker 3: So he performed the first lobotomy at a mental hospital
Speaker 3: in the United States in nineteen thirty six. Antonio was
Speaker 3: performing them in Berlin and it was a completely different jure. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so he got the Nobel Prize for what the work
Speaker 3: he was doing in Berlin with the lobotomy that he created,
Speaker 3: but it never made it to the States because Walter
Speaker 3: changed it, americanized it. And that's the lobotomy that we
Speaker 3: had in the States.
Speaker 1: It's like what we did with sushi and pizza.
Speaker 3: But so its use increased dramatically from the early nineteen
Speaker 3: forties and into the nineteen fifties, and by nineteen fifty one,
Speaker 3: almost twenty thousand lobotomies had been performed in the US
Speaker 3: thanks to Walter, not Antonio, because we didn't use his
Speaker 3: method whatsoever. And anytime you watch a movie, anytime you
Speaker 3: see something in a documentary about lobotomy, it's Walter's lobotomy,
Speaker 3: not Antonio's. So more lobotomies were performed on women than
Speaker 3: on men, and a nineteen fifty one study found that
Speaker 3: nearly sixty percent of American lobotomy patients were women. Does
Speaker 3: that shock you It doesn't shock me at all.
Speaker 1: Well, we all know about the old Kennedy family secret
Speaker 1: that's not so secret. But JFK's younger sister, I believe
Speaker 1: she was born in like forty one. You think she
Speaker 1: was in her early twenties. But one thing that isn't
Speaker 1: talked about a lot. I've learned recently is that when
Speaker 1: her mom was giving birth to her, the doctor was
Speaker 1: late or something, and the midwife told her to cross
Speaker 1: her legs and the kid was.
Speaker 3: Coming out oxygen deprivation.
Speaker 1: So she was always a little off. But then their
Speaker 1: idea was to lobottomize her, and she was bab got
Speaker 1: the Walter, but she was basically one of the you know,
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of results that happen. Sometimes it makes
Speaker 1: the people more fucking reactive. Sometimes it vegetizes them. And
Speaker 1: that's what it did to the Kennedy gal. Should I
Speaker 1: look her name up we're talking about Yeah.
Speaker 3: While you do that, I'm going to read a little
Speaker 3: bit more about the H. Walter lobotomi. So here's a
Speaker 3: little bit more about Walter. He was basically wanting to
Speaker 3: simplify lobotomies so that it could be carried out by
Speaker 3: psychiatrists in psychiatric hospitals where there were no operating rooms,
Speaker 3: no surgeons, no anesthesia, hospitals that had limited budgets, and
Speaker 3: he wanted them to still be able to perform the
Speaker 3: lobotomy right because the model that Antonio suggested would require
Speaker 3: operating rooms, surgeons, anesthesia, and people with some type of
Speaker 3: surgical skills. Right. Walter was like, nah, fuck that we
Speaker 3: should be able to do it with no anesthesia, on
Speaker 3: a limited budget, with no surgeons, no operating rooms, sometimes
Speaker 3: not even a doctor.
Speaker 1: He did like the fast food model.
Speaker 3: Yes, but that's the only one that we practiced in
Speaker 3: the US. That's why the results were so fucked up.
Speaker 3: So the transorbital approach involved placeding a orbito classed as
Speaker 3: it's called, which was basically just a little tiny ice
Speaker 3: pick in under the eyelid and against the top of
Speaker 3: the eye socket, and then they would just take a
Speaker 3: mallet and drive the ice pick through the thin layer
Speaker 3: of bone into the brain. And Walter's transorbital lobotomy method
Speaker 3: did not require a neurosurgeon, and it could be performed
Speaker 3: outside the operating room, often by untrained psychiatrists, without the
Speaker 3: use of anesthesia. And basically what they did instead of
Speaker 3: use anesthesia is they would electroshock them into a coma
Speaker 3: or a seizure.
Speaker 1: So this guy's name was Walter. Yeah you think he
Speaker 1: ever was like, I get you a lobotomy by three o'clock.
Speaker 1: That's okay, so willhelm on in here.
Speaker 3: Basically he would electroshock them and then put the ice
Speaker 3: pick into their eyeball, tap it with the mallet, get
Speaker 3: up into the brain and just start scribbling shit around.
Speaker 3: So Walter later traveled across the United States visiting mental
Speaker 3: institutions and in nineteen fifty one, one of his patients
Speaker 3: out at Iowa Cherokee Mental Health Institute died when he
Speaker 3: stopped to take a picture during the procedure and he
Speaker 3: went too far into the patient's brain and killed them.
Speaker 3: But he got a great pick out of it. And
Speaker 3: after four decades, Walter had personally performed possibly as many
Speaker 3: as four thousand lobotomies on patients as young as four years.
Speaker 1: Old Jesus four yep.
Speaker 3: Why And despite the fact that he had no formal
Speaker 3: surgical training, he was still able to perform four thousand lobotomies.
Speaker 1: This kind needs to be in a horror movie.
Speaker 3: And as many as one hundred of his patients died
Speaker 3: of cerebral hemorrhage. And so he has no formal medical training. Right,
Speaker 3: what's this dude's story? How is he able to do this?
Speaker 3: So he comes from a family of upper echelons from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3: He attended Yale University, not for medicine, and his grandfather
Speaker 3: was some kind of a general in the Civil War.
Speaker 3: And his first job was directing laboratories at Saint Elizabeth's
Speaker 3: Hospital in Washington, d C. And some would think, oh,
Speaker 3: nothing to see here, but I would say, it's suspicious.
Speaker 3: The guy goes to Yale University and his first job
Speaker 3: is in Washington, DC directing laboratories, and then he comes
Speaker 3: up with this lobotomi method. He's able to perform four
Speaker 3: thousand lobotomies with no medical training whatsoever. He's just killing
Speaker 3: people left and right, taking selfies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's of it. You mentioned an upper echelon
Speaker 1: family out of Philly, out of Pennsylvania, So yeah, this
Speaker 1: does week of spook connections.
Speaker 3: I think that they were just conducting big experiments on.
Speaker 1: Well it wasn't an experimental yes, but also you're eradicating
Speaker 1: a large portion of the population. Yeah, you're basically turning
Speaker 1: them into useless eaters who just probably most like we
Speaker 1: were talking about. Rosemary was their name, Kennedy. She was
Speaker 1: lobotomized at twenty three and then was institutionalized for the
Speaker 1: rest of her life.
Speaker 3: But she got the Walter. Yeah, because they only performed
Speaker 3: the Walter in the US, the one that the guy
Speaker 3: that won the Nobel Prize, the uh what's his name, uh,
Speaker 3: Antonio manz whatever. His procedure was completely different than what
Speaker 3: Walter was doing.
Speaker 1: So it's funny that they just shift all of it
Speaker 1: to him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, why isn't anybody talking about the fact that there
Speaker 3: there was never one lobotomy performed using Antonio's method in
Speaker 3: the US. Walter heard about it and was like, fuck
Speaker 3: all that we could do this without even any anesthesia
Speaker 3: or doctors in the room. Let me just put a
Speaker 3: fucking ice pick in this person's eyeball, tap it a
Speaker 3: couple times, and then scramble their brain. That the Walter
Speaker 3: method is in all the pop culture movies when they
Speaker 3: stick it in and they tap it and they get
Speaker 3: up into the that's Walter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wasn't a doctor.
Speaker 3: Walter was not a fucking doctor. How is that? How
Speaker 3: was that either?
Speaker 1: Well? And I imagine he was going around just showing
Speaker 1: everybody how to do it too. Yes, so yeah, you
Speaker 1: watch one flew over the Kouka's nest, which we'll go
Speaker 1: into extensively in the last episode. But yeah, it's uh,
Speaker 1: it's some dark ass shit. I mean, it's basically attempted murder,
Speaker 1: at at the very least on patients as young as four.
Speaker 1: And I can't imagine who the fuck in their right
Speaker 1: mind would hand their child over to have that done. That.
Speaker 1: Those people need to be lobotomized in a very painful way.
Speaker 3: I mean, if so, if they couldn't get him with
Speaker 3: the lobotomy, they use those other forms of treatment that
Speaker 3: you mentioned, insulin shock therapy, electroconvulsive therapy, neurolliptic drug therapy.
Speaker 3: So that's gonna wrap us up for what I had
Speaker 3: for part one, the Loboto Matrix.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did want to briefly go over before we
Speaker 1: close out. This reporter Nellie Bly, who many of you
Speaker 1: have probably heard of. Well, basically, she was an undercover
Speaker 1: reporter and she got the job by pitching this story
Speaker 1: to the newspaper. And she got into this institution and
Speaker 1: her overall stay was ten days. But while she was
Speaker 1: in there, she understood that, you know, they weren't fucking around.
Speaker 1: This was like a game to her. And when she
Speaker 1: kind of like tried to convince the people that she
Speaker 1: was saying all of a sudden, they attributed that to
Speaker 1: her being more insane, and she got stuck in this cycle.
Speaker 1: And finally, after ten days, the newspaper guy came in
Speaker 1: there and got her out. She wrote a book detailing
Speaker 1: all of it. It kind of brought some attention to it,
Speaker 1: but you know, it did keep happening for decades, and
Speaker 1: I mean there's indicators that it's still happening today.
Speaker 3: He's going to say, I think it's actually still happening.
Speaker 1: I mean, mental institutions aren't a big thing, although Donald
Speaker 1: Trump is talking about bringing them back.
Speaker 3: We need worlds fairs and more mental institutions make America
Speaker 3: great agains. Seeing girl interrupted.
Speaker 1: I don't know if he could sit through a movie.
Speaker 1: But anyway, to close the episode out, I wanted to
Speaker 1: read that article about that African guy because I think
Speaker 1: it's just a good wrap up of like these different
Speaker 1: perspectives on mental illness and the route that Western society
Speaker 1: took and has is continuing to take. And we will
Speaker 1: get into more modern day mental illness and our societal
Speaker 1: reaction to it, probably in the next episode. All right,
Speaker 1: This is from Mad in America, written in June tenth,
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen. The Shamanic view of mental illness Birth of
Speaker 1: a Healer. In the Shamanic view, mental illness signals the
Speaker 1: birth of a healer, explains a West African shaman Maladoma
Speaker 1: patrise sommee. Thus, mental disorders are spiritual emergencies, spiritual crises
Speaker 1: and need to be regarded as such to aid the
Speaker 1: healer in being born with those in the West view
Speaker 1: as mental illness, the Dagara people regard as good news
Speaker 1: from the other world. The person going through the crisis
Speaker 1: has been chosen as a medium for a message to
Speaker 1: the community that needs to be communicate communicated from the
Speaker 1: spirit realm. Doctor Somme comments mental disorder behavioral disorders of
Speaker 1: all kinds signal effect that two obviously incompatible energies have
Speaker 1: merged into the same field. These disturbances result when the
Speaker 1: person does not get assistance and healing with the presence
Speaker 1: of the energy from the spirit realm. One of the
Speaker 1: things doctor so May encountered when he first came to
Speaker 1: the United States in nineteen eighty for graduate study was
Speaker 1: how this country deals with mental illness. When a fellow
Speaker 1: student was sent to a mental institute due to nervous depression,
Speaker 1: doctor so May went to visit him. I was so shocked.
Speaker 1: That was the first time I was brought face to
Speaker 1: face with what is done here to people exhibiting the
Speaker 1: same symptoms I've seen seen in my village. What struck
Speaker 1: doctor so Mae was that the attention given to such
Speaker 1: symptoms was based on pathology on the idea that the
Speaker 1: condition is something that needs to stop. This was in
Speaker 1: complete opposition to the way his culture views such a situation.
Speaker 1: As he looked around the stark ward at the patients,
Speaker 1: some in strait jackets, some zoned out on medications, others screaming,
Speaker 1: he observed to himself. So this is how the healers
Speaker 1: who are attempting to be born are treated in this culture.
Speaker 1: What a loss? What a loss that a person who
Speaker 1: is finally being aligned with a power from the other
Speaker 1: world is just being wasted. The Western culture has consistently
Speaker 1: ignored the birth of the healer, states doctor. So may
Speaker 1: consequently there will be a tendency from the other world
Speaker 1: to keep trying as many people as possible an attempt
Speaker 1: to get somebody's attention. They have to try harder. The
Speaker 1: spirits are drawn to people whose senses have not been anestetized.
Speaker 1: The sensitivity is pretty much read as an inventation to
Speaker 1: come in. You know, those who develop so called mental
Speaker 1: disorders are those who are sensitive, which is viewed in
Speaker 1: Western culture is over sensitivity. Indigenous cultures don't see it
Speaker 1: that way, and as a result, sensitive people don't experience
Speaker 1: themselves as overly sensitive in the West. It is the
Speaker 1: overload of the culture they're in that is just wrecking them,
Speaker 1: observes doctor so Ma. The frenetic pace, the bombardment of
Speaker 1: the senses, and the violent energy that characterize Western culture
Speaker 1: can overwhelmed sensitive people with schizophrenia. There's a special receptivity
Speaker 1: to a flow of images and information which cannot be controlled,
Speaker 1: stated doctor so Ma. And as a side note, in
Speaker 1: our culture that's only getting much worse, yes with all
Speaker 1: the kids having phones and all that shit we had TV,
Speaker 1: which was bad enough. When this kind of rush occurs
Speaker 1: at a time that is not personally chose as chosen,
Speaker 1: and particularly when it comes with images that are scary
Speaker 1: and contradictory, the person goes into a frenzy. What is
Speaker 1: required in this situation is first to separate the person's
Speaker 1: energy from the extraneous foreign energies by using shamanic practice
Speaker 1: what is known as a sweep, to clear the latter
Speaker 1: out of the individual's era. With the clearing of the energy,
Speaker 1: with the clearing of their energy filled, the person no
Speaker 1: longer picks up a flood of information and so no
Speaker 1: longer has a reason to be scared and disturb explains
Speaker 1: Doctor so Ma, then it is possible to help the
Speaker 1: person align with the inner energy of the spirit being
Speaker 1: attempting to come through from the other world and give
Speaker 1: birth to the healer. The blockage of that emergence is
Speaker 1: what creates problems. The energy of the healer is a
Speaker 1: high voltage energy. He observes when it is blocked, it
Speaker 1: just burns up the person. It's like a short circuit.
Speaker 1: Fuses are blowing. This is why it can be really scary,
Speaker 1: and I understand why this culture prefers to confine these
Speaker 1: people here. They are yelling and screaming and they're put
Speaker 1: in a straight jacket. That's a sad image. Again, the
Speaker 1: shamanic approach is to work on aligning the energy so
Speaker 1: there is no blockage, fuses aren't blowing, and the person
Speaker 1: can become the healer they are meant to be. It
Speaker 1: needs to be noted at this point, however, that not
Speaker 1: all of the spirit beings that enter a person's energetic
Speaker 1: field are there for the purposes of promoting healing. There
Speaker 1: are negative energies as well, which are undesirable presents in
Speaker 1: the era. In those cases, the shamanic approach is to
Speaker 1: remove them from the era rather than work to align
Speaker 1: the discordant energies. And that kind of sounds like, oh,
Speaker 1: is that the end of it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let me do I actually made a note
Speaker 3: in my phone as you were reading that because it
Speaker 3: reminded me of something else I want to talk about
Speaker 3: in the next episode. But do you think, like I
Speaker 3: can get on with what this guy's saying.
Speaker 1: So I've always said that our fucking culture, our society.
Speaker 1: He calls them sensitive people. I would just say more
Speaker 1: people are just opened And so a lot of this
Speaker 1: stuff does drive people that if they grew up in
Speaker 1: this guy's village, they wouldn't be fucking crazy.
Speaker 3: You know what supports that theory. You can take a
Speaker 3: normal person like you or I.
Speaker 1: In induce normal.
Speaker 3: Listen, and induce psychosis with drugs. That's why I asked you, like,
Speaker 3: do you think every homeless person is just schizophrenic or
Speaker 3: psychopathic or whatever they're mentally ill. No, they started out
Speaker 3: as a normal person and they and they opened themselves up.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, a large proportion of the homeless population does
Speaker 1: fall into that. I would say it's really nuanced, but
Speaker 1: that's a huge part of it.
Speaker 3: But you know what, I'm saying, like, maybe, sure, some
Speaker 3: some homeless people started off mentally ill and did drugs
Speaker 3: and now they're worse off. But for the most part,
Speaker 3: like when you see when you pass a homeless person
Speaker 3: there and they're talking to themselves and they're shouting stuff
Speaker 3: out and whatever, they didn't start off like that.
Speaker 1: And even if they did, it would have been treated
Speaker 1: differently in a different culture. It would have been nurtured
Speaker 1: instead of stigmatized, you know, right, Well, that's half of
Speaker 1: the problem I think here is when people are experiencing
Speaker 1: something that the collective isn't experiencing, they're shunned, even if
Speaker 1: they're like nurtured in a way, but they're still shunned.
Speaker 1: And you're never gonna get good results with that. No,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's possible.
Speaker 3: You're never gonna get good results by numbing it with medication.
Speaker 1: Yeah, either, yeah, you can like bury it down. And
Speaker 1: then in the event where that person doesn't have access
Speaker 1: to medication somehow, which could.
Speaker 3: Happen, they have a psycho outbreak.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you're you're now on the pharmaceutical teat for
Speaker 1: effort of days or it could get ugly. I mean,
Speaker 1: just look at all the medical shortages we had during
Speaker 1: the COVID bullshit.
Speaker 3: Well, so that's why in the next episode, I want
Speaker 3: to touch on several things. I want to talk about
Speaker 3: some notorious asylums. I want to talk about psychiatry now,
Speaker 3: I want to talk about pharmaceuticals. And I want to
Speaker 3: talk about what would this doctor so May or however
Speaker 3: you pronounce his name, what doctor so May is talking about?
Speaker 3: Is this world that we're living in, like we have
Speaker 3: turned it into an industry. We've turned it into cogs
Speaker 3: in a medical machine. It's just normal, yes, but they're
Speaker 3: you're making so much money.
Speaker 1: All the people you know, okay, close people, family members
Speaker 1: of yours. Think of how many of them are on
Speaker 1: some kind of psych medicine. A lot of them, I mean,
Speaker 1: i'd say more are than aren't at this point.
Speaker 3: And your family too.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about my family. I'm talking about maybe some
Speaker 1: of my family who isn't should probably be like you
Speaker 1: never fucking know, I mean, yeah, I could glitch out
Speaker 1: at sixty and fucking need some of this shit. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm just saying they're there.
Speaker 3: We have not addressed the underlying cause, and we throw
Speaker 3: pills down people's throats.
Speaker 1: By episode three, we will tell you the underlying cause.
Speaker 3: I did a pretty good job.
Speaker 1: That's the most help well. Like I said, I wanted
Speaker 1: to interject like the transition, but I think it worked
Speaker 1: better closing out the episode with it, because that kind
Speaker 1: of gives a tangent that we could go off on
Speaker 1: next episode, because it is his theme needs to be
Speaker 1: overriding all of this, because he even talks in spiritual language.
Speaker 1: But he also says it's too like contradicting energy fields,
Speaker 1: and I mean all of it, all of it makes
Speaker 1: sense with how I view the world way more than
Speaker 1: it's oh, your serotonin levels need to be re uptake
Speaker 1: inhibited or whatever. Yeah fuck yeah, yeah sure, because that
Speaker 1: always works, doesn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah that Oh yeah, it works every time.
Speaker 1: But you know, and maybe sometimes it does, but it's
Speaker 1: not designed to I can tell you that, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what what are we? Are we using a code
Speaker 3: word for Randy Smoke? Who the guy the the shooting? No?
Speaker 1: Are you putting this on YouTube?
Speaker 3: No? So usually when you see school shooters and shit
Speaker 3: like that, they're all on serotonin inhibitors, and.
Speaker 1: Babe, it's not usually, it's always. But what I'm saying
Speaker 1: is if they're never not SSRIs, some kind of behavioral
Speaker 1: modification pharmaceutical drug for sure, all of them. The fucking
Speaker 1: if there's a scandal with the fucking uh Columbine shooters,
Speaker 1: there was a scandal with the fucking drug company that
Speaker 1: at least one of those kids was on, if not
Speaker 1: both of them. I know one of them was for sure.
Speaker 3: So again, if that was the answer to mental illness,
Speaker 3: we would have figured it out already.
Speaker 1: Ship we'd all be on them.
Speaker 3: But it's not. No, But yeah, so what do you
Speaker 3: what do you think? It? Just final thoughts for the
Speaker 3: loboto matrix segment.
Speaker 1: Uh, don't go get a lobotomy, probably not unless that's
Speaker 1: your thing. And uh yeah, we will definitely have a
Speaker 1: juicy beginning to next episode. Some of the stuff we
Speaker 1: were going to talk about before this one became almost
Speaker 1: three hours long. It'll all flow together. And I mean,
Speaker 1: I think these are thoughts that in our modern day world,
Speaker 1: just walking up in the middle of the fucking street
Speaker 1: of a city, you're going to see mental illness more
Speaker 1: and more all the time. It seems to be getting
Speaker 1: worse and our way of handling it.
Speaker 3: And yeah, something else I want to talk about in
Speaker 3: the next episode is also how the if anybody out
Speaker 3: there is listening to this and their child is autistic,
Speaker 3: do not take this personally. But I do feel like
Speaker 3: there is a big push to normalize it some type
Speaker 3: of superpower.
Speaker 1: And I mean they are extraordinary people, don't get me wrong,
Speaker 1: But it's not the next step in evident, it's not unless.
Speaker 3: What else I I want to say is what people
Speaker 3: need to understand is that this uptake in autistic children
Speaker 3: is caused from the uptake in the nineties of introducing
Speaker 3: a bunch of unnecessary vaccines.
Speaker 1: Oh you look where you're going r f K Junior.
Speaker 1: I would have a thing or two to say.
Speaker 3: Do you not agree?
Speaker 1: Of course I do. It's not a superpowerful And I
Speaker 1: also want to say something that I don't believe that
Speaker 1: the people who think this modern, this very new view
Speaker 1: that maybe this autism is like a superpower and the
Speaker 1: next step in human development. I would bet my bottom
Speaker 1: fucking dollar that the parents of autistic kids would be
Speaker 1: the first one to tell you fuck off of that
Speaker 1: I have to deal with this shit every day, day
Speaker 1: in and day out, and this is not a normal thing.
Speaker 3: Do you think that they would admit that childhood?
Speaker 1: Oh I don't know. I mean, I'm not going to
Speaker 1: speak for anybody on that, but I do know people
Speaker 1: who have to interact with autistic people on a daily basis,
Speaker 1: and they don't look at it as an upgrade.
Speaker 3: I don't look at that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm just saying when you were, like to
Speaker 1: any parents out there, I would think that they would
Speaker 1: agree with us. If not, medical people bomb herrass hard
Speaker 1: in the comments that they're wrong.
Speaker 3: Well, I just have I've met a couple recently who
Speaker 3: think that it's the next step in the evolution. And
Speaker 3: that's fair if they think.
Speaker 1: That autistic kids, yes, okay, hey, if that's the mild.
Speaker 3: Form of autism where they have like some kind of
Speaker 3: voluntism like that could be considered to be like some
Speaker 3: type of you know, the ability to do things that
Speaker 3: the average person would struggle with. I understand you thinking
Speaker 3: that could be a superpower. But just on the day
Speaker 3: today autistic children have I think the rise in autistic
Speaker 3: children occurred around the rise of unnecessary childhood vaccine schedules.
Speaker 3: It's not I think I.
Speaker 1: Think there's probably a lot of stuff contributing to it.
Speaker 1: I think we're gonna talk some MK ultra next time.
Speaker 1: And I think that there's a huge overlap of like
Speaker 1: that guy you like to talk about in Urie Geller,
Speaker 1: Oh Andrea, all these guys have a reason to push
Speaker 1: this narrative. It's very pharmaceutical, it's very Golden Age technocratic.
Speaker 1: It's it's very ugly. And if this ship was supposed
Speaker 1: to happen as the nation the natural advancement of the
Speaker 1: human society, it wouldn't have taken those measures to make
Speaker 1: it happen. CIA shit, pharmaceutical shit, it wouldn't have been.
Speaker 1: It wouldn't have taken that. So they're right there. Tells
Speaker 1: me like anything those guys do. Yeah, they made good
Speaker 1: music in la in the sixties, but other than that.
Speaker 3: They can bring that back at any time. I'm so
Speaker 3: sick to fucking death of this ship that they've been
Speaker 3: putting out.
Speaker 1: Just listen to the good stuff. The Laurel Canyon sy
Speaker 1: to the good stuff.
Speaker 3: But I'm just saying I could use the revival of
Speaker 3: the good CIA music.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they got something cooking.
Speaker 3: So with that being said, I think this is a
Speaker 3: good conclusion for the Loboto Matrix. Thank you for listening
Speaker 3: all the way to the end. This was a longer one.
Speaker 3: I hope we can bring the fire for the next episode.
Speaker 3: It is going to be the Conspira Asylum Part two
Speaker 3: Schizopharmiac segment. But thank you so much for listening. And
Speaker 3: there is one very important, vital piece of information I
Speaker 3: need you to learn just as soon as humanly possible.
Speaker 2: As normal places a mot of faces.
Speaker 1: I've got to live an take.
Speaker 2: Mess, don't we know? Don't we know that? Ts a
Speaker 2: feeling the bad loss and don't spreadshow, don't like expression
Speaker 2: my lid over to dumas to go to a find
Speaker 2: of fading. I found a god of side the drinking.
Speaker 3: Jumped out, you know, the dad iBOT.
Speaker 2: I want to tell you guys, I need to take
Speaker 2: with people.
Speaker 1: In circles.
Speaker 4: And ready you count me down five four, three two? Hello,
Speaker 4: really it just farted?
Speaker 1: Heybe she did? Everybody. If this doesn't make it into
Speaker 1: the outtakes, she's lost her sense of humor. Eight months pregnant.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna shave your eyebrows in your sleep.
Speaker 1: I look pretty good like that. I looked like a
Speaker 1: guy from a pink floor. You look like a chemo.
Speaker 3: Hush,