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Speaker 1: Hello everyone, thanks for joining us again on See If

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It Matters Today. I'm joined by Magnus Johnston from the

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University of Hull and Duncan Bog from my Tough Ship Design.

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We're hearing more and more about fuel costs, efficiency and decurbanization.

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But for fishermen this isn't theory, it's survival. There's an

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old saying in the industry. It all comes out the

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cod end, no matter what happens ashore, the cost lands

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with the man catching the fish. And when I hear

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all these discussions about price and cost, it always takes

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me back when I was a kid, and sometimes my

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mother used to say, whenever there was news of a

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fisherman or a boat lost at sea, should turn to

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us and say, that's a price of fish. I think

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that's something everybody should always be mindful of. So Hi

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Duncan and welcome to Seafood Matters and hello again Magnus,

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Welcome back. Would be great to see you both. Right

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to start, Duncan, if I could ask, please tell us

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your background and also what about McDuff Ship Design.

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Speaker 2: So I'm a senior naval architect at at mcdoff Ship Design.

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I've been here for fourteen years since I graduated from

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Strathclyde UNI in naval architecture. I always liked boats, and

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when I was trying to decide what to do for

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a job, I fell into naval architecture as an idea

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and I've really enjoyed my career arc since then. McDuff

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ship Design are a design company based in McDuff. We

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work closely with the shipyard here and have common owner,

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but are also partly owned by the staff and work

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independently of them, so also designing and working with other

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shipyards to build across the rest of the UK and

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the rest of the world.

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Speaker 1: So you're not That shows my ignorance already then I

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thought you were part of the mound of stip yard.

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Speaker 2: No, No, we're run as a separate company. We do

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a lot of the naval architecture work on the boats

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built in the shipyard, but we also work with a

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lot of other customers, whether that's owners or other yards,

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both in fishing, but also wider doing work in aquaculture

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and tugs and pilot boats and lots of other specialists

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small craft.

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Speaker 1: Okay, brilliant, it's a great and what our reputation They

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have for the boats that they build. Fantastic magnus. Where

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does your life take in nuisance or last recording?

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Speaker 3: Well, I sort I was thinking about this earlier and

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probably appropriate to say to think about where I've come

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to where I am now from about the time and

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I met Duncan. And I met Duncan when I was

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going around the country talking to skippers about propulsion systems,

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about electrification, potential for electrification, and I really enjoyed chatting

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to Duncan because as you'll as we'll find out as

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we go through, he's got a massive expertise in the

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sort of this area of propulsion systems on ships and

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lots of other things. And after I'd done that, I

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got interested in trying to help fishermen find ways to

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save money and to save fuel, and you know that

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goes hand in hand with this idea of decarbonization, and

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I think sometimes fishermen don't understand that they're part of

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this decarbonization net zero drive. When they're trying to save money.

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It's the same thing, it's absolutely the same. And then

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so I started working on this thing that I call

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my Boat's Data, and it's a I think that records

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noises that from the engine and turns it into resuming

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it and becomes a few use indicators, something we can

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talk about more as we go through. So I've been

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busy on that, and I've also set up a little

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community interest company in Bridlington on the sorry, Jim brid

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as you always insist, I call it so a little

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community interest company on the end of the yeer in

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brid which is set up to try and help the

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fishing industry, help local fishermen and fishermen more broadly, doing research,

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getting involved in social science research and just trying to

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help where I can really And so I'm looking forward

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next year to stepping down to three days a week

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at university and getting more involved in the activities down

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on the harbor, which is what I really enjoy.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, definitely. When you're sitting there, you try to help. Well,

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I'm trying to help you, Magnus, because when I hear

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us in bread, you sound like a local. So either

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of view it there you think's appropriate. Are we looking

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at a short term fuel cost squeeze or has economics

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of the fishing fundamentally changed?

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Speaker 3: Should I start dunking?

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Speaker 2: And then? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I mean I think fuel prices are only

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ever going to go one way in the in the

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future and in the longer term there always is always

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going to be the diesel in diesel and petrol is

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going to get more expensive over over time, and the

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industry kind of has to learn to deal with that somehow,

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And there are lots of things that the fishing skippers

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can do to help reduce the impact of increasing fuel prices.

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But what we're seeing at the moment, it's the same

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as last time around with the during COVID, you know,

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and the Ukrainian the war was a Ukraine, you know.

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It's a sudden spike that's very difficult for fishermen to

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deal with this. They've had no warning and all of

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a sudden, I think prices have gone back up to

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where they were at their peak, I mean sort of

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back up to over a pound alter from sixty p

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at least that's what I think. Duncan, you might know

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better than me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not certain on exact pricing, but I think,

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as you say, we're at this steep point of a

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spike in the price and that will come down. But

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I'd agree that the longer term, diesel is only going

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to become more expensive and harder to come by as

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we see the world's transition away from fossil fuel use,

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and that might lead to some bets where there's there's

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the opposite of now where there's there's oversupply as other

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industries have moved off of fossil fuel quicker than expected.

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But I think in general it's it's only going to

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keep going in this direction.

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Speaker 1: Duncan, when you're saying that or both, he I've done

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a recent podcast with Jason Monroe from Ecomotives, and that

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very question I asked them about for the bigger boats,

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things like the electrification and all the different things that

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there's been looked. Technology has been looked at, and I said,

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is it realistic? I think that's possible, And he says

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for now, absolutely not. He says it's diesel and for now,

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well into the foreseeable future. Something you agree with.

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Speaker 2: So I've done a number of studies with fisheries innovation

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and sustainability into what a net zero fishing boat looks like.

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And basically, the bigger the boat is, the more intense

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its power use is, the more difficult that transition becomes.

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There are options and we could build the boats to

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suit those options. They would be more expensive to build

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and they would be larger for the same fishing capacity.

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But it's also something that's technically possible to do in

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the next five or ten years with the way the

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industry is developing. But what's lagging a long way behind

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that is the shore side infrastructure and the petrochemical plants

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to develop those fuel and any indication of what those

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fuels will actually cost to the fishermen going to see

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to make investment decisions in what they do. I was

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listening to a recent webinar on future fuels, saying that

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for shipping to go entirely net zero, renewing the entire

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fleet of ships in the world is only twenty five

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percent of the cost. The other seventy five is on

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the energy generation and petrochemical work to make the fuel

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and the delivery to the vessels and all of the

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infrastructure that that requires. And that really shocked me how

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small a part of changing the marine industry changing the

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boat says.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the things I've learned from talking

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to Duncan over the time and from my own sort

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of investigation. I mean, I was looking particularly electrification when

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I was talking to skippers. But there isn't a silver

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bullet here. There's no single solution. And so if you

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look to Bridge for example, well these are all potters

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and they ensure guys could transition to electric if the

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infrastructure in the port was there. But it's not just

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the port, it's upstream from the port as well. You know,

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the infrastructure needs to be in place to support electrication

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and bread. But if you go up to Fraserhead where

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you're looking at, you know, big trolling fleets, and it's

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a different solution. And I mean Duncan can talk more

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to that than I can. But you know, different ports

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are going to and different fleets are going to have

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different solutions when it comes to their power.

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Speaker 1: Probably fishermen face rising courts but don't get paid any

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more for their cats, and really that sustainable in any industry.

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean I would say here it's partly differn

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by fishermen becoming more efficient and landing more so. I

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spoke to a fishermen off the west coast of Ireland,

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lived all his life on Aaron on the Irish Aaron

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and a cannearly he's called, you know, and he was

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talking about when he I mean he's about our age,

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you know, not Duncan's age, our age gym, and he

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he's he remembers people making a living of fifty pots,

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you know, and they could make a living out of

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fifty pots because I guess they got paid more and

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they didn't have the same level of expenditure or expected

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lifestyle expectations that people have have nowadays. And as the

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fleets have become more efficient, they've landed more, and as

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they've landed more, I think the price must have gone down,

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you know, in relation to you know, so I guess lifestyles.

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So some some prices. Last time I looked at this,

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I was looking at paper, and some of the prices

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for some fish have not gone up in twenty years,

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you know, They've remained the same, partly because of this

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increased efficiency of fishermen. I mean, you think about the

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trollers that are working in the North Sea macro fleets

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and all the big boats that are out there. I mean,

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they're much more efficient than any of the older boats were.

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And there are a lot of solutions that hopefully we'll

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talk about tonight, but one of them might be and

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I'm sure the industry is well aware of this and

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we'll be trying to do this is fish smarter, you know,

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try and catch things at the right time of year

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when they're worth more money, you know, and try and

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get the right size. I mean, I'm sure the industry

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already does this, but where it's possibly be a bit

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cleverer about what they what they land. Maybe there's less

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maybe there's things they can do there. So there's no

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easy I don't think it's an easy solution.

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Speaker 1: When you're talking about ports Magnus, it always takes me

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back when my father was fishing. I'm talking about the

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fifties and the early sixties. There were a scene netter.

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They were partly seen it certain times of the year,

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and then there would be well we call them kreels,

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you call them pots down there, and they made a

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good living and the most now when you think of it,

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I don't know about your area holderness, but up here

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some of the bigger crabbers, their spots are in the thousands,

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number one thousand, and they're single and two man boats

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with seven eight hundred or up to a thousand. Now

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that was a fifty four foot wooden boat, which I

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thought was in my younger days, I thought she was

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a battleship and or five of a crew. So at

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five of a crew to get wages, the most creels

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he ever had oubt was one hundred. Now you know

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the man very well, hands uncle, he was fishing sixty five,

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he's now fishing forty five. And I think that I

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often wonder to myself looking back at my father's time,

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thinking of hands and that, and partly what you're saying

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as well about fishing clever in that magnus. But I

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just wonder if there could be work done to get

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the balance on the market. There'll be a point on

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the market when the price will go up. So if

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there were to not just fish clever, but sell clever

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and just keep the market to a point where the

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price is not coming down, so you could work less pots.

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I'm going to bitter price. It's one one all the way.

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Speaker 3: But don't you I mean, this is this is your

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area of expertise. That's what you did as a career,

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wasn't it. You're a fish merchant. So but how global

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was the market when you were you know? You know,

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And I wonder whether part of the problem is now

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that you know you can't you can catch crabs in

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Bridlington and they can be in China or Japan or

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Vietnam forty eight hours later, you know. And so the

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price isn't driven by local markets, is driven by geopolitics

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as much as anything, you know, And I think that's

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an issue that's that's part of the issue driven this

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need fish. So fishermen need to be if you look

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at a fast worker in brid and they're doing three,

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four or five six hundred pots, in order to get

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around their pots quickly, it needs to have a big engine.

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It's virtually a speedboat, you know, some of these things.

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And then that's not the fault of the fisherman. They've

240
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kind of been forced into that by competition amongst themselves

241
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and a global market where prices may not have risen

242
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the way they should have done. Well, it's cost him

243
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to rise, you know.

244
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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, in a recent podcast with the guy Greg Mercer

246
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and the Mareen States and they used to Kindada. He

247
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goes on to say about how their biggest market used

248
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to be America, it's now China. They're paying more. Yeah,

249
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so it's probably relanes what you're saying. Yeah, if fuel

250
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keeps rising and income stay flat, where does the adjustment happen.

251
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Is it fewer boats, fewer trips, or people leaving the

252
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industry altogether.

253
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Speaker 2: I mean to an extent that's a little outside by

254
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area of expertise, but certainly we need to find a

255
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way to get that more level so as we have

256
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a sustainable industry, and to some extent the sustainable industry,

257
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maybe fewer boats or maybe fewer trips. Trying to find

258
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a way to maximize the value of your catch against

259
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what you've spent in fuel is going to be really

260
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essential when there's spikes and fuel price.

261
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Speaker 3: I think there may be changes.

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Speaker 2: Well.

263
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Speaker 3: We are already seeing modifications to gear, you know, like

264
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lighter trolls that don't require as much fuel in order

265
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for you know, to maximize catch for less less cost.

266
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And the stuff they're doing in Heriot what whether they're

267
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looking at Paul Fernandez is trying to develop a troll

268
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or has developed a troll it's more selective and only

269
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takes out you know, it's selective in the water, you know.

270
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I think it's using AI or something that you know

271
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that these sorts of things may help. But I can

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see as has already happened for other reasons. There's been

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a dry towards more static gear around the coast of

274
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the UK and off the coast of America, you know,

275
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for a whole lot of reasons that are nothing to

276
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do with fuel or to do with management policy and

277
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all the rest of it. But I can see the

278
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fishermen that are fishing with static gear that doesn't need

279
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to be dragged through the water might be at an

280
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advantage compared two trollers. And so we might see fishermen

281
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readopting some of those static gear methods from days gone by,

282
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you know, maybe fixed engines on the shore, maybe if

283
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,799
they can, you know, sort of static nets, more people

284
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using nets where they can. Yeah, I mean, I think

285
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there's a myriad of different things that all the things

286
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you mentioned are impacting on fishermen. But there's a lot

287
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of responses they can make in order to try and

288
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do something about that. But there's no I wish there

289
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:54,880
was a kind of easy solution, but I don't think

290
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there's anyone.

291
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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think God's anything to do with the

292
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pressure from environmental groups where they're talking about impact on

293
00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:07,400
the seabed.

294
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Speaker 3: I guess there's some, you know, so they certainly have

295
00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:16,160
a top hit list of types of fishing they don't like,

296
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I mean, they don't like scallop dreaders, so they don't

297
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,920
like benthic trolls, and they just it feels that sometimes

298
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it feels like they're just working their way down the

299
00:19:24,519 --> 00:19:27,960
list and they'll get to pots and static nets eventually,

300
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you know, and and start having having a go there,

301
00:19:30,319 --> 00:19:35,920
you know. Yeah, And my view is that the best

302
00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,440
thing that fishing can do is to have a broad

303
00:19:38,519 --> 00:19:42,799
footstep and tread lightly, which by which I mean they

304
00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:48,160
have a diversity of fishing methods by boat and by port,

305
00:19:49,079 --> 00:19:53,920
and where possible, they're not constrained into fishing for using

306
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,359
one kind of gear the whole time, and and that

307
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,200
would let them take opportunities where they can and maybe

308
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,720
not have to travel so far in order to find

309
00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,039
those opportunities. And that's that's something that the price of

310
00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:09,200
fuel is going to impact on.

311
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 1: And you think their fishermen are forced into possession where

312
00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:16,680
they have to fish harder to even stand still.

313
00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:23,640
Speaker 3: I think certainly if the price drops of what they're catching,

314
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,759
they have to fish harder in order to break even.

315
00:20:27,599 --> 00:20:30,599
And then and I guess the other end of that

316
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,880
is if you get a good price your fish harder

317
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,400
in order to make the businessman. I mean, it's not

318
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,079
a charity, you know, these these guys they need to

319
00:20:38,079 --> 00:20:42,119
make a living and that's something we need to respect

320
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:42,799
and remember.

321
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Speaker 1: So definitely, I mean it appears all risks since with

322
00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:53,319
the fishermen. While others in the supply chain have more

323
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,000
control over their margins, the fishermen of none.

324
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,000
Speaker 3: I was wondering about that because what about fish merchants, Jim,

325
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:01,920
there's no risk of being a fish.

326
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,799
Speaker 1: Merchant, Well, they have a more chance of increasing their

327
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:11,240
getting the price up, asking for more money, where whereas

328
00:21:11,599 --> 00:21:16,799
fishermen are putting them on the auction and take what

329
00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:18,119
they get they have to.

330
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe there's a need to change there. Maybe there's

331
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,559
a need for a higher diversity of ways for fishermen

332
00:21:26,599 --> 00:21:29,200
to sell. So I mean, maybe we can learn from

333
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,880
COVID a bit where there was quite a few fishermen

334
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,160
went to the effort of selling direct to the public

335
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:36,960
and they were able to make a bit.

336
00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:37,400
Speaker 2: More out of that.

337
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,799
Speaker 3: Although talking to Carl and Jenny Price in Britainton, you

338
00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:44,160
know the paperwork involved in that for a small fishing

339
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,880
operation nowadays it's horrendous, you know, So it's a barrier

340
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,119
to that that kind of thing.

341
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 1: I was involved in a contract with three dollars and

342
00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:01,359
processor and a supermarket market and spent sours and that

343
00:22:01,519 --> 00:22:08,200
was going back in to the eighties. So it's no,

344
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,839
it's no rocket science that hasn't been done before. The

345
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,559
fishermen liked it because it give them a bit of

346
00:22:17,599 --> 00:22:21,400
stability as we're catching. They could they could work out

347
00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:29,119
what their halls were worth. I think we could. We

348
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,440
should be looking more at the selling the door side.

349
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:38,799
I definitely feel that, and I don't. I feel there

350
00:22:38,839 --> 00:22:44,400
should be more conversation between the different sectors. I even

351
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,599
feel when they're talking about we quote a negotiations or

352
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,119
any of that negotiations. I think shore base they should

353
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:58,200
be in the room, and anti scientists and the fisherman

354
00:22:58,279 --> 00:22:59,799
I think they should all be in the room to

355
00:22:59,839 --> 00:23:00,279
get there.

356
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder if that's been something that's been missing

357
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,079
in the past, and the shore base doesn't get the

358
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:10,319
attention that the ocean going part of the industry gets.

359
00:23:10,519 --> 00:23:13,279
You know that we don't hear enough from there are

360
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,559
two separate worlds. You've got the processing sector and you've

361
00:23:15,559 --> 00:23:18,640
got the catching sector, you know, and they maybe that, yes,

362
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,839
I think you're right. Maybe maybe it's a job of

363
00:23:20,839 --> 00:23:23,799
seafish is to try and bring those guys together.

364
00:23:24,759 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I have a situation I had last year,

365
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,319
I think, not that long ago. I got fish from

366
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:40,200
a friend and scrubs her. He says, help yourself. So

367
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,599
I took a few, but just but a few. Headache

368
00:23:42,799 --> 00:23:45,440
in the bag, he says. He turned to me and

369
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,640
he says, don't take that rubbish. He says, there's better

370
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,759
fish on the market here. I said, is it. I'm

371
00:23:51,799 --> 00:23:58,720
happy with this, leave it? So, oh my goes. I

372
00:23:58,799 --> 00:24:02,200
fulleted them now, and I'm when i'm fileting them thinking,

373
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,599
I'm looking back and thinking to myself. I was involved

374
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:13,599
in retail because I had counters and some supermarkets fresh counters,

375
00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:19,200
and we also had an actual fish shop. And in

376
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:25,359
the old weight and that four rounds billet was a

377
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:31,880
perfect size for the fishmonger. A housewife would come in

378
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:36,200
for their family, four filets would be the pound in weight,

379
00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:40,480
and I was filleting this fish. And so that was

380
00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:47,000
prime size for the retail trade, which was a good

381
00:24:47,079 --> 00:24:50,000
market for fishermen to catch, you know, to get the

382
00:24:50,079 --> 00:24:57,559
retail trade. So particularly kitchen scales out weighed them from

383
00:24:57,599 --> 00:24:59,839
four and a half to five and a half oun

384
00:25:00,799 --> 00:25:04,319
And here's me thinking to you back in the days,

385
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,359
that would have been prime size and quality obviously for

386
00:25:09,839 --> 00:25:13,599
the retail trade. Do you know where that fish came from?

387
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,079
Guys bad books?

388
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:20,519
Speaker 2: Correct?

389
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: And I've been I've been asking some of the merchants

390
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,880
and people, and all I hear from them is was

391
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,799
hearing from them is oh, what the market wants? The

392
00:25:33,839 --> 00:25:38,400
market wants bigger fish. I would say, Oh, I see,

393
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,640
so the market the market wants to pay twenty five

394
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:49,119
pound akilo instead of fifteen? Is that it? And so

395
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:54,240
I think that needs a sedious look. And that's one

396
00:25:54,279 --> 00:25:56,359
of the things Magnet's going back. That's one of the

397
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,880
things I feel if they're sitting together in the room,

398
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:05,799
that could be discussed and spoken about because they're catching

399
00:26:05,839 --> 00:26:09,200
them now, so they could they could get a more

400
00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:12,759
value for them. So I think they have a long

401
00:26:12,799 --> 00:26:13,359
way to go.

402
00:26:14,279 --> 00:26:18,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, for more collaboration, isn't it. But it's competitive, isn't it.

403
00:26:18,279 --> 00:26:21,599
You know the merts in Brindlington, there's four merchants and

404
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,799
they're all trying to get the maximum catch for the

405
00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:28,079
minimum price. That's because they're a business you know, and

406
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,720
the fishermen are trying to you know, they're trying to

407
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,799
make it. There's all sorts of complexities there.

408
00:26:32,799 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: You know, that's a very short sighted we're looking at

409
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,640
it because any of that fish merchants, if they get

410
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,759
them too cheap for too long, they're not going to

411
00:26:43,759 --> 00:26:48,720
get any more. There's not going to be left well.

412
00:26:48,759 --> 00:26:49,039
Speaker 2: I think.

413
00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:50,759
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that's happened in the past,

414
00:26:50,799 --> 00:26:55,079
and hopefully it's changing now, is the way the fishermen

415
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:57,599
would get home and you come home, come into port,

416
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,480
and they'd have a load of fish, and all fishermen

417
00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:02,960
want to do is go home, and so they just

418
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,680
throw the catch ashore, you know, and they're not they weren't.

419
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,480
They wouldn't worry too much about what the quality was,

420
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,319
and then they just go home.

421
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:11,559
Speaker 2: You know.

422
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,759
Speaker 3: I think hopefully that's not the case anymore. But maybe

423
00:27:14,759 --> 00:27:20,279
there's something to do with getting merchants to value good

424
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,759
quality product at the keyside rather than I don't know,

425
00:27:24,759 --> 00:27:28,000
maybe they're they feel they've got to buy whatever's there

426
00:27:28,079 --> 00:27:31,160
just then and pass it on, you know, rather than

427
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:36,640
encouraging their clients, I guess, to get their fishermen or

428
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,519
who they're buying from to bring the best quality. And

429
00:27:38,519 --> 00:27:41,039
I mean, do you think in fish markets do you

430
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,720
see better prices for better quality crab and for better

431
00:27:43,799 --> 00:27:45,200
quality net rops?

432
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 2: And you.

433
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: Don't see them in the market?

434
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 3: All right, of course, but there you go, so nerops,

435
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:54,119
yeah go straight, yeah straight?

436
00:27:54,319 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah, So there is you know, there's got

437
00:27:58,759 --> 00:28:04,680
to be there is a modern society, we technology the

438
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,279
way that there must be a way from a policy

439
00:28:09,319 --> 00:28:13,440
and science perspective. Is that understood well enough? Do you think?

440
00:28:15,319 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 3: I think it's complicated. That's the problem is everything there's

441
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,119
a sort of at a local level. You know that

442
00:28:24,279 --> 00:28:27,920
there should be a relation between relationship between what's coming

443
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,160
out of the code end, how much there is, what

444
00:28:30,279 --> 00:28:32,039
quality is, and the price that you get for it.

445
00:28:32,079 --> 00:28:34,279
But then there's all these other factors. Now, like we

446
00:28:34,279 --> 00:28:37,279
were talking about earlier globalization and the fact that you

447
00:28:37,319 --> 00:28:41,160
can sell your fish anywhere you know in the world,

448
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,559
that's impacting on as well. So there's all these other

449
00:28:43,599 --> 00:28:47,079
factors that impact on price. It's not just supply and demand.

450
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,400
And I don't know how we get hold of that.

451
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,680
That's not not an area I feel confident to talk about.

452
00:28:57,119 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: Duncan from a vessel design side, can you realistically ease

453
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,079
the pressure or does it always come back to the

454
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,240
catch value.

455
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 2: So it's a balance of the two. There's a lot

456
00:29:12,759 --> 00:29:15,440
of things that we can actively do and we do

457
00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:19,079
actively do when we're designing new boats to try and

458
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,079
reduce the fuel burden on them, to make them better

459
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,759
in the sea, to both make them more comfortable, better

460
00:29:27,799 --> 00:29:33,440
platforms to fish from, and also use less fuel. But

461
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,920
everything's always a compromise to suit what needs to go

462
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:43,319
on the boat and to meet regulations, and it's sort

463
00:29:43,319 --> 00:29:48,000
of almost always going to be the biggest factor in

464
00:29:48,039 --> 00:29:50,839
whether a boat makes profit or how much profit they

465
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,200
make is how much they get for the catch.

466
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you look at the current fleet, much of

467
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,920
it is simply not suited for today's fuel costs.

468
00:30:07,079 --> 00:30:10,759
Speaker 2: So the fleet that we have in the UK is

469
00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:14,880
very diverse, as I've already talked about, lots of different

470
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:21,400
types of fishing operation and lots of areas. Some of

471
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:28,200
those boats are very efficient boats, operating really well to

472
00:30:28,279 --> 00:30:31,839
their capacity within in the fuel. Some of them are

473
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:38,160
older boats with older equipment, older engines, and while the

474
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,079
operators can can do as much as they can with them,

475
00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:45,880
they are going to struggle to remain competitive because they

476
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,240
simply won't catch the same volume of fish for the

477
00:30:50,279 --> 00:30:51,880
amount of fuel they use.

478
00:30:54,319 --> 00:30:57,759
Speaker 1: If a skipper came to you tomorrow struggling with fuel boats,

479
00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:00,799
what practical changes can you recommend.

480
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: I've got a nice big list of things here that

481
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:16,000
have organized for this and something earlier. Yeah, and I

482
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,440
think the key thing on this list is that they

483
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,160
all have positives, but they all have negatives. There's a

484
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,240
good chance a lot of skippers are already doing quite

485
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,119
a lot of the things on this list to try

486
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:32,720
and manage their their fuel belt and understanding the positive

487
00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:36,480
and the negative and balancing them out to make the

488
00:31:36,559 --> 00:31:40,559
right decision for their businesses for their fishing vessel is

489
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:45,160
the important thing. So categorized them into a couple of bits.

490
00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:51,799
I've got some behavioral changes here. One thing that it

491
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,480
was a propeller manufacturer said to me is having a

492
00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,319
fuel flow meter sitting within sight of the skipper while

493
00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:04,319
they're driving the boat can be a huge driver and

494
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,240
reducing the amount of fuel you use. There can often

495
00:32:08,279 --> 00:32:12,599
be just the slightest tweak on the throttle can leave

496
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,640
the boat going at best part of the same speed

497
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,440
towing the same gear, but can maybe knock one or

498
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,440
two percent out of your fuel use, and that accumulated

499
00:32:23,519 --> 00:32:29,279
over the trip can can make a big difference when

500
00:32:29,279 --> 00:32:31,319
we're in a very tight margin space.

501
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: Can I interrupt Duncan before you carry on down your

502
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,160
list because it matches well with the my boat's data

503
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,160
thing that I've been trying to develop and talking to.

504
00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:48,279
It was a Glass Region ship's architect whose names escapes

505
00:32:48,319 --> 00:32:52,079
me right at this moment in time. But he had

506
00:32:52,119 --> 00:32:56,319
done this this study on a barge on agriculture on

507
00:32:56,359 --> 00:33:00,480
an operation, and they'd found that just the threat of

508
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:03,839
putting in a fuel meter and something that that monitored

509
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,920
the behavior of the boat saved fifteen percent of the

510
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,960
fuel built. And when I came away from that, and

511
00:33:11,279 --> 00:33:16,480
Mallinson's was, I think, is that a Glasgow Ships arch enginet. Yeah. So,

512
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,240
and I came away from it, and I went and

513
00:33:19,279 --> 00:33:21,960
did some digging and looked to other areas like truck

514
00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:24,480
drivers and cars and all the rest of it. And

515
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,359
it's a fairly it seemsly a fairly standard figure between

516
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,480
ten and fifteen percent fuel savings just by having a

517
00:33:32,279 --> 00:33:36,640
fuel monitor or a miles per gallon monitor in your

518
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,319
face so you've seen it all the time, you know,

519
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,200
and that's what that's what we're We're trying to develop

520
00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:46,119
something that will work on any boat, so I can

521
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,880
and it's I don't think it's just about and I

522
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,880
think the behavioral stuff, Duncan. You you might have more

523
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,559
there that's worth talking about it, but to me that

524
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:58,759
we don't really know what behaviors will help improve fuel use.

525
00:33:58,839 --> 00:34:00,680
We know that backing off the engine of it. I mean,

526
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,079
every skipper I spoke to you said about seventy was

527
00:34:04,119 --> 00:34:08,280
an engine speed is kind of generally where it's most efficient.

528
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,199
But there'll be other things they could do, like choosing

529
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,039
the weather they work in, choosing how far they got,

530
00:34:13,079 --> 00:34:15,000
all that kind of stuff. So sorry, don't let me

531
00:34:15,079 --> 00:34:18,039
interrupt it just it fits well with the.

532
00:34:17,599 --> 00:34:20,519
Speaker 1: Well, well, I'm I'm sorry, Duncan, but I'm going to

533
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:24,239
endure up now because Magnus, when you're saying that about

534
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:27,920
the media in front the it's reminded me of a

535
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,800
caps I saw today on social media. And there's two shorts,

536
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:42,000
one above the other and it's difference between COVID the

537
00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:46,199
lockdown and now and there's here's this guy picture of

538
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:51,039
the scene he's standing ull in his truck and during

539
00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:54,920
COVID he's got a face, a mask over his face.

540
00:34:55,679 --> 00:35:00,679
He's now got a mask over his eyes. You don't

541
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,360
want to see.

542
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can believe that.

543
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:06,599
Speaker 1: Carry out.

544
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:12,599
Speaker 2: That's fine. Yeah, I mean the fuel flow meter is

545
00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:18,119
almost more a tool that you can use to see

546
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,079
if your behavioral changes make a difference. What I was

547
00:35:23,119 --> 00:35:26,639
going to say is slowing down in speed management is

548
00:35:26,679 --> 00:35:29,519
something that can make a huge difference in terms of

549
00:35:29,599 --> 00:35:34,039
fuel use. As you say, having an engine about seventy

550
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:38,400
percent is typically considered to be very efficient for the engine,

551
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,800
but you've got to play that against maybe having the

552
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,639
engine slightly less efficient, but using a lot less fuel

553
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:54,559
to go slower could be could be advantageous. Vessel speed

554
00:35:55,159 --> 00:36:01,159
has like a cubic relationship with your power consumption pretty much.

555
00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:04,239
So you know, if you double your speed, you use

556
00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:11,079
eight times as much fuel. So I don't think we're

557
00:36:11,119 --> 00:36:14,119
talking about half in your speed. But there's there's a

558
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,920
very fine limit where you can still travel a good

559
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:23,320
speed to your grounds and doing your fishing, but a

560
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,159
small amount of knockoff and can have a big effect

561
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,519
on your fuel. But obviously you want to get your

562
00:36:29,519 --> 00:36:33,719
product to the market quickly. You don't want people on

563
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,880
the boat for an unnecessary amount of times. So there

564
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:42,400
is a trade off in terms of doing that. I've

565
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,559
got here turning engines off when they're not in use.

566
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,320
I'm very prone to seeing boats outside in the harbor

567
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,599
here and they're tied up alongside and they've still got

568
00:36:53,639 --> 00:36:59,440
the engine running well after when they're tied up, and

569
00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:02,400
I'm thinking about is all that that money that they're

570
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:08,280
putting up the stack? And obviously you've got on for

571
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,280
some things, but.

572
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: Jump in, Sorry duncan I just want to ask when

573
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,239
you're saying that that that's staggering that you double the

574
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,199
speed in your eight times more fuel. It's unbelievable. But

575
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,440
I'm just wondering. Obviously a power way pentland first, and

576
00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:35,960
that notorious have have the fishermen got the choice because

577
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:40,880
when you think of the tides and weather conditions and

578
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,199
that that must have a factor. So that with the

579
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,840
always of the I don't know, you know better.

580
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,519
Speaker 2: I'm just asking you don't always have the choice. And

581
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:56,599
that's I mean, that's where this is a balanced view,

582
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,039
and it's where you can if you can slow down,

583
00:38:01,079 --> 00:38:04,760
you'll use less fuel. Where you can't. Then your operation

584
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,880
is the most important thing. And I don't want to

585
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,679
be the person to tell a fisherman how to do

586
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,239
their job. They know their boat and they know their

587
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,360
operation better than me. All I'm trying to give them

588
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,760
is advice. If you're transiting slower, it is going to

589
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,360
save fuel. And it is one of the things that

590
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:29,880
I have on my list of behavioral possibilities is when

591
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,599
you're heading out into areas with weather and tides and

592
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,079
tidal flows, it's trying to time your operation so as

593
00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:43,119
you're using those factors instead of them working against you.

594
00:38:44,559 --> 00:38:48,559
If you're going through the Pentland Firth, you don't want

595
00:38:48,559 --> 00:38:50,159
to be doing that against the tide. You want to

596
00:38:50,159 --> 00:38:52,280
be having that nice flow to take you through it,

597
00:38:54,119 --> 00:38:57,519
and that's going to save you feel significantly compared to

598
00:38:57,559 --> 00:39:03,719
going against the tide. But again, do you know what's possible?

599
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,199
Speaker 3: So do you know the difference in fuel usages between

600
00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:12,000
a flat candy and a and say punching into a decency?

601
00:39:12,119 --> 00:39:14,360
Have you got any idea at all that?

602
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 2: So that is the probably the hardest factor to determine

603
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,320
when we're designing a boat, because the boat design makes

604
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,639
a huge difference and very often what you'll find is

605
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:35,159
boats that are really driven towards being efficient on a

606
00:39:35,199 --> 00:39:41,960
flat candy can be very poor for fuel and any

607
00:39:42,039 --> 00:39:46,559
sort of weather. We see that with I was speaking

608
00:39:46,559 --> 00:39:50,800
to someone who operates on one of these offshore crew

609
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,320
supply boats for the wind farm industry slightly dirty word

610
00:39:54,360 --> 00:40:00,119
to talk about on a PA, and he was in

611
00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:04,519
that these boats they'll cruise out at high speed perfectly

612
00:40:05,559 --> 00:40:07,440
until you've got a foot of chop, and at a

613
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,519
foot of chop, the thing slams and they've got to

614
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,440
come basically back to a quarter of the speed they

615
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:16,840
go out otherwise otherwise you just can't drive the boat.

616
00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:20,760
So it's very difficult to give a figure because for

617
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,960
them it's a very high But for a lot of

618
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:29,480
the trawlers that we've been working on recently, that's the

619
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,480
most important thing is that it has good propulsive efficiency

620
00:40:33,519 --> 00:40:36,800
and a big sea that it doesn't get affected by that.

621
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,880
So maybe on a flat cam day there's a more

622
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,000
efficient boat than it, but in the environment that it's in,

623
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,599
it retains its best efficiency.

624
00:40:47,039 --> 00:40:51,360
Speaker 3: Can you use the motion generated from if you're in

625
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,880
a big sea, Can you use that as ship in

626
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,000
hull design to become more efficient because there's a lot

627
00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:01,920
of weight that's been moved up down by the by

628
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,880
the sea. Is that anybody tried that or is that

629
00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:05,639
beyond the realms of fantasy.

630
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,599
Speaker 2: That's not something I've heard of. You better get a

631
00:41:10,599 --> 00:41:11,199
patent on it.

632
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:17,599
Speaker 1: Man, don't don't by dunk and Magnus is not trying

633
00:41:17,599 --> 00:41:19,800
to cut you. He's just trying to work you down

634
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,079
for his catamaran and the Humbury yesterday.

635
00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 3: So that was a really good example, Dunky, as Duncan

636
00:41:25,519 --> 00:41:28,400
was saying, this is this is a boat designed really

637
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,239
well for the Humber, really shallow draft, twin haul, big

638
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,119
engines on the back. It's used mostly by anglers and

639
00:41:35,159 --> 00:41:37,079
on a flat cam. Date it's the best boat in

640
00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:41,119
the world. But we had a when coming from the

641
00:41:41,679 --> 00:41:44,639
from the west yesterday. It was coming straight down the

642
00:41:44,679 --> 00:41:48,280
Humber and it made a chop of about just over

643
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:49,920
a meter, you know, a meter and a half maybe,

644
00:41:50,199 --> 00:41:53,599
and then it's a ten it's a ten meter catamaran

645
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,920
and it was doing exactly what you're saying, Duncan. When

646
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,719
you drove into when you got into the sea, it

647
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:00,599
was you'd feel it. When we hit a wave. It

648
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,599
almost stopped the boat, you know, and that cannot be efficient,

649
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,199
that must be and those I guess those are the

650
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:09,840
sort of things you need to think about. I mean,

651
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,800
I could tell if I'd been on a monohole. Actually,

652
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,760
I like the movement of a monohole going into the

653
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:17,599
see if it's not going too fast, you get that

654
00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:22,719
there's a nice you know, it's comfortable. That wasn't comfortable yesterday.

655
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean, that's one of the most interesting

656
00:42:27,039 --> 00:42:31,000
bets about my job is trying to dig down into

657
00:42:31,079 --> 00:42:34,679
what the skippers that were designing the boats for are

658
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,960
going to do with them, and how to optimize for

659
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,480
their operational profile to make sure they've got the right boat.

660
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,079
And the nature of that is if they say they

661
00:42:45,079 --> 00:42:48,400
are going to be doing everything, you end up with

662
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,840
a with a jack of all trades. If it's someone

663
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:58,639
who's fishing out Shetland with going out all stage, you've

664
00:42:58,679 --> 00:43:03,760
got something that's really designed for battling through heavy seas,

665
00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:07,800
or if it's like you're talking about something on the Humber,

666
00:43:08,039 --> 00:43:11,599
it's it's just not designed for any waves. And when

667
00:43:11,639 --> 00:43:16,159
you get that, it's not optimum, but that's five percent

668
00:43:16,199 --> 00:43:19,400
of its life rather than the ninety five and you

669
00:43:19,559 --> 00:43:23,320
just got to take that as the compromise that's been

670
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:24,920
best for their operation.

671
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: Goodness, what you're saying there is bringing something back into

672
00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:33,519
my mind and would be interesting in your view, and

673
00:43:33,599 --> 00:43:36,800
it and is it still relevant and still used?

674
00:43:37,559 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 2: And I have.

675
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,679
Speaker 1: To say put my hand up and say I wasn't

676
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,639
aware of this, but during my career and being in

677
00:43:45,679 --> 00:43:49,519
different places in Iceland, then there are a lot of

678
00:43:49,559 --> 00:43:54,159
business in the Pharaohs. Now we were at a shipyard,

679
00:43:54,960 --> 00:44:01,199
and then back here we're in the a. All this together,

680
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,599
it's over a period. The Fisheries Museum here in Wick,

681
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:12,920
it's a fantastic place and they had knowled it's called

682
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:18,400
a stroma yawl. Stroma be the island in the Pentland Firth,

683
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:22,639
and a yowl in a small boat. Now a stroma

684
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:26,360
yowl would maybe be just less than ten meters, well

685
00:44:26,639 --> 00:44:30,320
much less than ten meters, but they were classic as

686
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,719
a five man and five men could sit beside each other.

687
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,159
You know, the beam be a beamier boat, but the

688
00:44:38,199 --> 00:44:41,320
guys in the Fairah, we're talking about a much narrower boat.

689
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,920
And an Iceland was different and all the howls or

690
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,559
a different shape. I found I didn't know about it,

691
00:44:49,599 --> 00:44:51,760
and I found it very interesting. But they were saying

692
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:58,360
that was because the different sea in that different areas

693
00:44:58,559 --> 00:45:00,920
is that does that.

694
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:05,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me. When

695
00:45:05,559 --> 00:45:14,559
you've got potentially quite tall but short waves, something narrower

696
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,679
is good for that because it will sort of go

697
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:21,079
straight up and down, where something that's beami er if

698
00:45:21,079 --> 00:45:23,760
it ends upside on, will roll in and out of

699
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,559
it more as it gets caught by the wave taking

700
00:45:27,599 --> 00:45:34,599
it up. But obviously the beam gives you some level

701
00:45:34,639 --> 00:45:39,400
of stability, so it's important. So the balance of those

702
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:44,519
two factors really dictates how you design your boat. And

703
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,440
I could see that there would be a big diversion

704
00:45:47,559 --> 00:45:51,719
in different areas to suit what sort of waves they

705
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:56,800
encountered and how stable they like their boats to feel.

706
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:05,199
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. Yeah, and with that come into your work

707
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:11,039
now when you're talking about sort of efficiencies with the

708
00:46:11,039 --> 00:46:14,079
shape of the hull, and that come into that.

709
00:46:15,079 --> 00:46:17,559
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the shape of the hull is one of

710
00:46:17,639 --> 00:46:21,719
the most important things in general. We'll try and keep

711
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:26,760
boats as as fine a shape as possible and try

712
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,000
and keep their beam relatively narrow if we can. The

713
00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:35,400
problem becomes with more and more effishing gear on board,

714
00:46:36,159 --> 00:46:39,159
especially when it's positioned higher and higher on the boat.

715
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,719
You need the beam to give us more stability to

716
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:49,119
take that weight. And as the boats catch more and

717
00:46:49,199 --> 00:46:52,679
they are limited in their length, the shape becomes less

718
00:46:52,679 --> 00:46:57,960
fine and becomes fuller. So it's all a compromise. Compromises

719
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,159
the biggest word. Whenever we're designing a boat, you've got

720
00:47:01,159 --> 00:47:04,480
to find the right balance to suit what the owner

721
00:47:06,159 --> 00:47:10,960
once and what ticks most of the boxes that they need.

722
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,039
Speaker 3: I guess that's why potters have become like brick shapes,

723
00:47:16,519 --> 00:47:20,559
because they need that deck space to hold all a

724
00:47:20,639 --> 00:47:23,320
string of pots, you know, and strings of pots. Now

725
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,199
we're thirty forty big pots, you know. So that affects

726
00:47:27,199 --> 00:47:28,800
the design as well, and they need to be able

727
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:29,760
to move the gear around.

728
00:47:31,039 --> 00:47:33,760
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how they look under the water, whether

729
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:38,119
they are still quite streamlined and then quite boxy on top,

730
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:42,639
or whether they've they've got boxy the whole way through.

731
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,199
I haven't had a good look yet. Some of the

732
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,639
potters down in your direction. I'll need to next time

733
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:48,719
I'm in the area.

734
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,159
Speaker 3: They'll probably take offense if we call them boxy I'll

735
00:47:52,159 --> 00:47:55,519
get told off next time I've been bred.

736
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,639
Speaker 1: And then you'll you wouldn't have thought about it, but

737
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,119
I know Magnus was watching me closely. I mentioned Iceland,

738
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:19,199
pharaoh Strom, all that island. I didn't mention Greenland. Are

739
00:48:19,559 --> 00:48:23,320
we're talking about small efficiency gains or does the fleet

740
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:25,239
need just a complete rethink?

741
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:32,360
Speaker 2: So you know, there's there's a lot of small changes

742
00:48:33,119 --> 00:48:36,480
that we can make that are relatively cheap or easy

743
00:48:36,559 --> 00:48:40,159
to do, and then there's some larger changes we can

744
00:48:40,199 --> 00:48:44,599
do that are more expensive. One of the things I

745
00:48:44,599 --> 00:48:47,920
always think of when you're talking about small efficiency gains

746
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:53,079
is I don't know if if you've ever heard of

747
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:57,760
marginal gains, a sort of term coined by British cycling

748
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,679
as they tried to take over the Olympics and win

749
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,360
all the gold medals, which was that they looked at

750
00:49:04,599 --> 00:49:08,480
every factor that they could, you know, the chains on

751
00:49:08,559 --> 00:49:14,239
the bikes, the wheels, the handlebars, the beds, the people

752
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:18,639
were sleeping in, taking outside air conditioning, and they thought

753
00:49:18,679 --> 00:49:20,960
all of those things would give them one to two percent.

754
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,039
But when you bring it all together, it gave Team

755
00:49:26,159 --> 00:49:31,480
GB a huge competitive advantage and to an extent, I

756
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:34,920
think we need to be looking at that taking every

757
00:49:35,039 --> 00:49:39,440
marginal gain that we can in terms of fuel efficiency

758
00:49:40,119 --> 00:49:42,880
and take all the small gains, and that can make

759
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:47,039
a big difference. I do think in the longer term

760
00:49:47,119 --> 00:49:51,880
and the transition away from fossil fuels, there is going

761
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:57,400
to be a big rethink about what type of vessels

762
00:49:57,559 --> 00:50:01,440
and what balance of vessels we need. But at the

763
00:50:01,519 --> 00:50:04,559
moment it's very difficult to see that as there's no

764
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,239
real clear path in terms of which fuels will be

765
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,639
available in the pricing for anyone to run a real

766
00:50:11,679 --> 00:50:18,639
economical model of it. And just circling back on my

767
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:23,800
list of other practical changes that I can recommend, I'd

768
00:50:24,039 --> 00:50:27,960
talked about behavioral stuff. There's also things that can be

769
00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:32,599
done on the vessel, from as simple as keeping the

770
00:50:32,639 --> 00:50:38,079
bottom clean, then the props clean, to looking at anti

771
00:50:38,159 --> 00:50:42,719
fouling that can keep it clean for longer. Some of

772
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:49,360
them also talk about having better surface friction ratios. I'm

773
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,800
never certain about those claims and how well they stack up.

774
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,440
I know you were speaking recently to some people about

775
00:50:57,639 --> 00:51:02,159
propeller coatings. I think did I listen to one with

776
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,920
David Stevens who's had that on the crystal c propeller

777
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:11,679
coating and that that makes a big difference. We've obviously

778
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,719
got the Ecomotus system that you can have to improve

779
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:21,119
your engine efficiency. There's a lot of warnings that go

780
00:51:21,199 --> 00:51:25,039
alongside that in terms of the engine manufacturers don't like it,

781
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:33,519
and I have a certain degree of concern around having

782
00:51:33,639 --> 00:51:37,960
hydrogen in the engine room. Obviously that the way that

783
00:51:38,039 --> 00:51:43,760
it's installed is MCA certified and I'm sure as well considered,

784
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,559
but it's one of those things that just always makes

785
00:51:46,599 --> 00:51:49,360
me nervous with that product. Otherwise, I think it's a

786
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,400
very good idea, and then you probably get into the

787
00:51:52,519 --> 00:51:56,199
more expensive things that I'm thinking about here. There's the

788
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,480
potential that that new engines could make a big difference

789
00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:03,320
to both, and that might be a new engine that's

790
00:52:04,079 --> 00:52:08,199
smaller tou going at a slightly slower speed and keeping

791
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,679
it in its economical range. But it could also be

792
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,519
that the engine on board a boat is undersized and

793
00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:19,079
it needs to be a bigger engine. Newer, more modern

794
00:52:19,119 --> 00:52:24,239
engines are more fuel efficient than the previous generations, so

795
00:52:26,039 --> 00:52:29,000
there is a big potential for that, but it's a

796
00:52:29,039 --> 00:52:31,239
big ticket item that it costs a lot of money,

797
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,880
and also I know a lot of guys like sort

798
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,559
of old gardener engines because the quint bullet proof, and

799
00:52:39,639 --> 00:52:41,440
they can do a lot of work on them themselves.

800
00:52:41,519 --> 00:52:43,920
For as if you get a modern engine that's that's

801
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,519
got an electronic controller. If you have a problem, you're

802
00:52:47,679 --> 00:52:50,159
you're calling in service agents a lot of the time

803
00:52:52,519 --> 00:52:56,559
thinking about the propellers on the boat and the nozzles,

804
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,840
if that's something on it, whether there's a better way

805
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:06,679
of pitching the propellers to suit the operation better. I've

806
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,960
also seen energy recovery systems on the boat. So you've

807
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:12,920
got a lot of heat that goes up your exhaust.

808
00:53:13,639 --> 00:53:16,800
There are people who develop systems and we've seen one

809
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,280
on a fishing boat we designed that uses that heat

810
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:25,119
to run a desalination plan, so that puts fresh water

811
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:31,639
on the boat that's then used for their ice making,

812
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,840
and you know, the fresh water is made straight out

813
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:38,000
of the heat that would otherwise be waste. I've seen

814
00:53:38,119 --> 00:53:41,519
systems that do a similar principle, but they can turn

815
00:53:41,559 --> 00:53:48,880
it into electricity. And then the sort of even further

816
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,480
in the cost bracket is looking at some hybrid systems

817
00:53:53,599 --> 00:53:57,880
or even a full electric boat. A full electric boat

818
00:53:58,039 --> 00:54:02,920
like hands that we talked about earlier. You become decoupled

819
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:09,280
from the the price of diesel to an extent, you're

820
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:14,400
still caught up in oil price because the electric grid

821
00:54:14,559 --> 00:54:20,239
is still very fluctuating with oil price. But as we

822
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,239
move away from fossil fuels, that would become a much

823
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:29,199
more stable in terms of your fixed costs. Hybrid systems

824
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,360
for some boats could could make a huge difference in efficiency,

825
00:54:33,639 --> 00:54:36,840
but for others make no difference. So it's very much

826
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:40,119
dependent on the vessel. And then there's other things we

827
00:54:40,199 --> 00:54:43,679
could do that are changes to the boat, whether that's

828
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,840
length in it, or cutting out the bow and putting

829
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:51,920
a new more efficient bow on, or a stern, or

830
00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:55,559
adding a nozzle if you're towing gear can make a

831
00:54:55,599 --> 00:54:59,760
big difference. Or if you're not towing gear and your

832
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,239
boat has a nozzle, then taking the nozzle off could

833
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:08,039
be a big, big advantage. I realized that's quite a

834
00:55:08,119 --> 00:55:13,559
long list of ideas for changes, and as I say,

835
00:55:13,639 --> 00:55:16,480
not all will be applicable to every boat. But it's

836
00:55:16,559 --> 00:55:20,519
something for people to think about as ways that you

837
00:55:20,599 --> 00:55:25,039
could invest money to save money. And that's going to

838
00:55:25,079 --> 00:55:27,679
be the difficult bit is understanding it. At what point

839
00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:29,920
you've actually saved your money.

840
00:55:30,639 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 3: That last point's really interesting, But I don't know what

841
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,039
does a nozzle do and why is it better on

842
00:55:36,159 --> 00:55:39,920
a troller and not better on a potter for example.

843
00:55:40,599 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 2: So the nozzle basically circles up the propeller and it

844
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:50,280
helps it to pull water through. So when you're traveling

845
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,960
at slow speeds, it allows you to produce more force

846
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:58,840
to push the boat forward. And that's really good when

847
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,320
you're towing gear because worried about how much force you

848
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:06,840
can produce to pull. When you're operating static gear, you're

849
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,559
not that worried about what you can pull behind you.

850
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,960
You're more worried about being efficient at sort of close

851
00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:18,800
to the vessel's hull speed. And at that point the

852
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:24,920
nozzles really dragging in the water and creating more resistance

853
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:29,360
than the additional force that it provides for you.

854
00:56:30,119 --> 00:56:33,519
Speaker 3: That's interesting. There's another thing, so something that was suggested

855
00:56:33,559 --> 00:56:36,679
to me by a fisherman a couple of years ag

856
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:38,800
around about the time when we were seeing each other

857
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,239
regularly dunking for the FIST, and that was the idea

858
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:46,960
of carrying a small engine on the boat, especially for potters,

859
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,159
you know, for when you're just nudging the boat around

860
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,599
your gear, you know, And that came up against the

861
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:56,840
MCA who or maybe it was fishing regulations, because it

862
00:56:57,039 --> 00:56:59,480
would be power that counted towards the power they would

863
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,000
you know, the way that boats are licenses about the

864
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:04,360
power of the engine, isn't it so I mean.

865
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 2: Sense that would be some extra killer watts, wouldn't it

866
00:57:10,079 --> 00:57:12,639
in the water, Not that they'd be using them at

867
00:57:12,679 --> 00:57:16,440
the same time. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah,

868
00:57:16,719 --> 00:57:23,280
you see it actually on a lot of sort of

869
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:28,159
small leisure fishing boats, especially in America. I'm thinking about

870
00:57:28,199 --> 00:57:31,199
these bass boats. They've got a big outboard on the

871
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:36,320
back to blast about the lake at high speed, and

872
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:40,039
then they've got just a little engine to sort of

873
00:57:40,119 --> 00:57:44,400
creep along the margins of the lock that they're fishing on.

874
00:57:46,079 --> 00:57:48,760
And I could certainly see something like that just to

875
00:57:49,599 --> 00:57:53,000
keep you moving forward along your your static gear as

876
00:57:53,039 --> 00:57:56,280
you're picking it up, being really helpful because it would

877
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,679
let you be i mean, either out of gear with

878
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:02,719
the main engine in neutral which is still burning some

879
00:58:03,599 --> 00:58:05,000
or turning it off entirely.

880
00:58:07,159 --> 00:58:11,039
Speaker 1: Duncan you're you mentioned there, and yet you're right. I

881
00:58:11,199 --> 00:58:17,639
have done recent podcasts I recorded with the company's ecomotives

882
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:23,280
and assured Marine ecomotis. As you said, they're got the hydrogen,

883
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,320
and you were saying you're not very comfortable with it.

884
00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,679
I was telling a fisherman there recently when after that

885
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,519
recommending he wants to listen to it, and he was

886
00:58:36,599 --> 00:58:39,800
a bit concerned. But the reason he was concerned, I

887
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,719
got the word wrong. I didn't say it was hydrogen.

888
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:52,079
I told him it was nitrogen that I mean they offer.

889
00:58:52,599 --> 00:58:55,039
Speaker 2: Sorry, just just to come in on that when I

890
00:58:55,079 --> 00:58:59,239
say I'm concerned. Hydrogen is a is a gas that

891
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:05,840
has a series explosion risk. But I understand that the

892
00:59:05,880 --> 00:59:10,000
ecomotive system uses a very small amount of it. I

893
00:59:10,159 --> 00:59:12,679
just I haven't seen it installed, and I don't know

894
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:16,280
what they do in terms of mitigating that explosion risk,

895
00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,199
and I would want to before I could put my

896
00:59:20,360 --> 00:59:23,639
full weight as a as a professional naval architect behind

897
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,159
saying and it's a it's a good idea if you

898
00:59:27,239 --> 00:59:29,800
can install it on your boat, you need to understand

899
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:34,320
that that's a risk mitigation. To make sure it's risk

900
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:35,039
it's going to happen.

901
00:59:35,679 --> 00:59:40,559
Speaker 1: They say that RENA approved. I'm not sure about RENA.

902
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:46,480
But also as you said that the Mcare of approved

903
00:59:46,519 --> 00:59:52,360
it and some other body as well funding bodies, So

904
00:59:52,679 --> 00:59:55,599
it seems to be I'm not pushing that, but it

905
00:59:55,719 --> 00:59:59,119
certainly seems to have not concerned.

906
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,039
Speaker 2: And as I say that, you know, the chemistry behind

907
01:00:03,719 --> 01:00:08,559
what they say it does makes really good sense. Effectively,

908
01:00:08,679 --> 01:00:12,719
it's it's it's adding a small amount of hydrogen into

909
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,400
the fuel mix and it makes the diesel burn more efficiently,

910
01:00:17,199 --> 01:00:21,079
and and that I totally believe. And at the moment

911
01:00:21,199 --> 01:00:25,679
we can see engine manufacturers making dual fuel engines and

912
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:27,880
one of the big things that they say is when

913
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:32,320
you run a dual fuel, so that's diesel and another fuel,

914
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,360
when you run one of those as a diesel and hydrogen,

915
01:00:36,079 --> 01:00:38,159
you don't need a lot of hydrogen in the mix

916
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:42,400
to really improve the diesel. So what they are saying

917
01:00:42,519 --> 01:00:47,880
they can do is I would say very legitimate, and

918
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:54,000
certainly David on the on the Crystal c is very

919
01:00:54,079 --> 01:00:58,280
positive about it. As I say, my area of concern

920
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,960
is just around how that highen's handled and how you

921
01:01:02,159 --> 01:01:06,079
ensure the safety in the engine room. And then also

922
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:10,119
people need to understand if they've got an engine that's

923
01:01:10,199 --> 01:01:13,679
under warranty, if they put that on it that the

924
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:17,199
engine manufacturer won't stand by the warranty because you put

925
01:01:17,239 --> 01:01:20,199
something in that makes a bit inside the engine bang

926
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:21,679
just a little bit harder.

927
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:26,559
Speaker 1: The guys, both David and a guy Mike Bullinger, when

928
01:01:26,559 --> 01:01:32,000
they're talking about the coding on the prop, they're saying,

929
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:37,519
it's unbelievable the difference that they reckon. There's less noise,

930
01:01:38,519 --> 01:01:43,960
there's more maneuverability, they get a better towing speed. And

931
01:01:45,079 --> 01:01:47,519
you'll know more about this than me and for sure,

932
01:01:47,679 --> 01:01:52,760
But what the part that really surprised me was they

933
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:58,199
were saying, this was Mark and Simon from Assured Marine.

934
01:01:58,519 --> 01:02:01,840
They reckoned it was more having that coating on the

935
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:07,199
prop than the hull. Now my head thinking when you

936
01:02:07,239 --> 01:02:10,599
think of the surface area of the hull, but they

937
01:02:10,719 --> 01:02:13,920
reckon that was more important than the prop and the whull.

938
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:19,559
And David Steven reckons twenty five meter board. He says

939
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:26,679
the last three years he's saved like two hundred and

940
01:02:27,559 --> 01:02:30,480
thirty Well the figure he mentions two hundred and thirty

941
01:02:30,559 --> 01:02:32,960
five thousand. That's serious money.

942
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And knowing David just a little bit, that's it's

943
01:02:39,039 --> 01:02:41,159
going to be a mixture of the things he's talked about,

944
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,719
but he's going to be very careful in the way

945
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:46,039
that he drives his boat. He's going to be doing

946
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:50,280
everything he can to make it fuel efficient. That's that's

947
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,800
what he's really set his mind to, and when he

948
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:56,639
sets his mind to something, he tends to do it

949
01:02:56,840 --> 01:03:00,519
very well. So that's a sort of say that you

950
01:03:00,679 --> 01:03:04,599
can make by making changes like this, But there's obviously

951
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:09,360
for both the ecomotis and the propeller coating, there will

952
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:13,440
be a cost to go along with it. The surface

953
01:03:13,639 --> 01:03:19,199
friction on a propeller is very, very important to its efficiency,

954
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:25,320
and any drop off in propulsive efficiency of the propeller

955
01:03:26,199 --> 01:03:33,760
is effectively just lost fuel. It's money wasted. So if

956
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:37,719
that boating does as they're saying and keeps that at

957
01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:42,239
the right surface friction surface finish to get the maximum

958
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:46,280
efficiency out of the propeller, I can well believe that

959
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,440
it would make a good saving to the boat. The

960
01:03:49,559 --> 01:03:53,559
propellers are turning, they're a really active part of the boat,

961
01:03:54,199 --> 01:03:57,800
so although they've got a lot less surface area, they

962
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:01,719
have a big impact on what you're doing doing. One

963
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:04,440
of the other things in this playoff is because it's

964
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,559
got a relatively small surface area, the cost of putting

965
01:04:08,719 --> 01:04:13,239
the special polymer coating on it is going to be

966
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,880
relatively smaller because you'll just need less coating, where if

967
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:18,880
you do the hull, it's it's going to be a

968
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:25,119
big expense comparatively, And the surface smoothness of a hull

969
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:28,639
does play a factor in resistance, but it's by no

970
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:32,559
means the biggest factor. The whole shape of the boat

971
01:04:32,639 --> 01:04:36,920
pushing through the water is a lot more than the

972
01:04:37,000 --> 01:04:40,360
specific surface friction in general.

973
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, from what you've seen obviously, do these sort of

974
01:04:45,119 --> 01:04:49,239
solutions actually make a difference in practice for working fishermen?

975
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:53,400
Are they more long term incremental improvement?

976
01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:59,239
Speaker 2: So a system like the ecymotus or the propeller coating

977
01:05:00,159 --> 01:05:01,960
or some of the other things I talked about in

978
01:05:02,119 --> 01:05:04,920
the list I had of changes you could make to

979
01:05:05,039 --> 01:05:09,760
the vessel, there'll be a relatively instant change, you know,

980
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:13,400
it's the boat is different at that point. It will

981
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:16,760
burn less fuel from that point on for doing your operation.

982
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:20,360
The problem is we've got to pay for that upfront,

983
01:05:21,679 --> 01:05:24,119
and it's going to take you time that the fuel

984
01:05:24,199 --> 01:05:29,559
saving adds up to what that upfront cost is. I mean,

985
01:05:29,599 --> 01:05:32,559
that's really how I think it's best to look at

986
01:05:32,639 --> 01:05:37,079
these modifications is in terms of a payback time. If

987
01:05:37,119 --> 01:05:40,360
I spend this much and it takes me a year

988
01:05:41,239 --> 01:05:43,320
to say it back, that might be good. If it

989
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,639
takes ten years, it's maybe not worth it. If it

990
01:05:46,719 --> 01:05:49,840
takes a week, it's a no brainer. You've just got

991
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,079
to do it. And that the ones that are the

992
01:05:53,199 --> 01:05:55,440
shortest period of the time are the ones that are

993
01:05:55,519 --> 01:05:58,840
best to invest your money in first. But I would

994
01:05:59,599 --> 01:06:03,679
recommend caution and just listening to what the salesman of

995
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:07,400
a company say there product will will do for your

996
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:11,000
efficiency if you listen to Magnus is my boat state

997
01:06:11,199 --> 01:06:15,039
is going to save you fifteen percent. But that's maybe

998
01:06:15,159 --> 01:06:19,320
only if you're not operating your boat very efficiently at

999
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:24,360
the moment. And everything's different depending on how you operate

1000
01:06:24,440 --> 01:06:28,199
your boat. So what a salesman says is is always

1001
01:06:28,239 --> 01:06:31,239
to be taken with a pinch or or maybe a.

1002
01:06:34,599 --> 01:06:35,159
Speaker 1: Full of salt.

1003
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:38,119
Speaker 3: I think that's a really important point.

1004
01:06:38,159 --> 01:06:38,679
Speaker 2: They're dunking that.

1005
01:06:40,679 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 3: It's about skippers being aware and having it in their

1006
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:48,360
face the whole time. You can save money, and you

1007
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:50,920
can save money by the actions that you're taking, and

1008
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:53,159
those are like that list. I'm sure you've got a

1009
01:06:53,199 --> 01:06:55,920
longer listed in the way somewhere that's top secret for

1010
01:06:56,119 --> 01:07:01,800
McDuff Shipyard. You know, all those things you can do,

1011
01:07:02,559 --> 01:07:04,800
and it goes in all the way from simple behaviors

1012
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,920
like switching your engine off when you're alongside, knocking back

1013
01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:10,199
on the revs a little bit, you know, making sure

1014
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,880
you've got the bottom clean. All those things people can

1015
01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:14,880
do tomorrow, can't they you know, and they will make

1016
01:07:15,199 --> 01:07:16,840
every one of those will make a little bit of

1017
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:18,639
a difference. But you've got to have I mean, I

1018
01:07:18,679 --> 01:07:21,199
would have a sign up in the wheelhouse saying, you know,

1019
01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:23,239
how can I save money today?

1020
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:27,119
Speaker 2: You know? And how I behave I mean, I certainly

1021
01:07:27,199 --> 01:07:30,760
notice when I'm driving. Sometimes i can be in the

1022
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:35,360
mood to drive really efficiently and I'll put the miles

1023
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:37,880
for gallon on and I'll be really good. And then

1024
01:07:38,039 --> 01:07:42,079
sometimes I'm more interested in about where I'm going and

1025
01:07:42,239 --> 01:07:47,159
getting there, and there's a huge difference. And I think

1026
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:53,840
trying to keep on task on. You know, the least

1027
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:58,039
fuel you burn when you're out fishing, the more profit

1028
01:07:58,199 --> 01:08:02,159
you make from selling your fish, and the more that

1029
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,920
that can be. What you're what you're thinking about what

1030
01:08:05,079 --> 01:08:09,000
dictates the decisions you make as you are driving and

1031
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:12,320
making helming probably as the right word, and making the

1032
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,960
decisions on board is really important.

1033
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:23,199
Speaker 1: There's all of us talk of the next generation vessel buking,

1034
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:27,439
but is that realistic for working fishermen just now?

1035
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 2: There's a lot to be said for what the next

1036
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:36,279
generation of fishing boats will look like. Since I've started here,

1037
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:41,239
we've had a relative change in terms of what we've designed.

1038
01:08:41,279 --> 01:08:44,800
Has been a lot of work and tac testing to

1039
01:08:45,279 --> 01:08:50,239
improve the boats, but largely they they're all very similar

1040
01:08:50,319 --> 01:08:56,760
and they're a small improvement on what was before. When

1041
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:01,039
we start looking forward to the next generation, that's going

1042
01:09:01,119 --> 01:09:04,920
to be as fossil fuels phase out and the boats

1043
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:07,199
are going to have to be quite different to suit that.

1044
01:09:08,159 --> 01:09:13,840
And for some vessels that is a massive opportunity. You know,

1045
01:09:14,159 --> 01:09:19,680
inshore vessels that have relatively low power demands, being able

1046
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,960
to go to electric systems that really free them up

1047
01:09:24,000 --> 01:09:31,079
from that oil price could be a huge advantage to them.

1048
01:09:34,079 --> 01:09:36,199
All you have to do is listen to hands talk

1049
01:09:36,239 --> 01:09:39,520
about his boat and you're convinced it's a great idea.

1050
01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:43,520
But at the other side of the scale, for the

1051
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:50,279
stuff that's very power intensive and fuel intensive. We're at

1052
01:09:50,279 --> 01:09:54,159
a real crossroads where when diesel stops working, what that

1053
01:09:54,319 --> 01:09:57,439
next generation looks like is it's difficult to think.

1054
01:09:58,520 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 1: Okay, if the policy makers fully understand that fishermen can't

1055
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,479
just pass rising costs.

1056
01:10:06,199 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 3: On sometimes yes, I think one of the problems we

1057
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:17,079
have is that this is a long term problem. You know,

1058
01:10:17,159 --> 01:10:20,000
this isn't something that's got a five year timescale around it.

1059
01:10:20,079 --> 01:10:24,800
It's a fifteen, twenty thirty year issue. And politicians come

1060
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:27,880
and go. Policymakers come and go. You know, every time

1061
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,880
you talk to different the person who you were talking

1062
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:32,920
to last time has moved on and they're doing something

1063
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:35,560
else because they're bright young things. You know, they're moving

1064
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:40,239
on to another department and changing their career and that life.

1065
01:10:41,079 --> 01:10:45,760
The number of people who stay in fisheries at the

1066
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:50,840
level where they're making decisions, I wonder how often they

1067
01:10:50,880 --> 01:10:53,319
stay for more than five years or ten years or

1068
01:10:53,319 --> 01:10:56,119
something like that, you know, And that's that's a I

1069
01:10:56,159 --> 01:10:58,439
think that's a that's a difficulty that we face with.

1070
01:10:58,840 --> 01:11:01,239
It's not just in fishing, other areas in policy as well.

1071
01:11:01,399 --> 01:11:03,920
You're saying wind farms, you're dealing with wind farm operators.

1072
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,760
The liaison people that you're dealing with change regularly, and

1073
01:11:08,239 --> 01:11:10,520
you've got to educate them all over again. And you'll

1074
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:14,479
hear fishermen or fishermen's representatives say exactly the same thing.

1075
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:17,119
You know, every time there's a change in government or

1076
01:11:17,159 --> 01:11:20,119
a changing minister, or a change in the rep Defra.

1077
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:23,640
They have to be re educated to understand the fishing

1078
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:26,960
industry and understand that when they make a policy decision

1079
01:11:27,720 --> 01:11:32,359
that requires fishermen to change their gear or their engines

1080
01:11:32,439 --> 01:11:35,880
or something about their boat, or legislation or you know,

1081
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:38,319
the MCA come in with lots of rules and regulations

1082
01:11:38,359 --> 01:11:42,840
about stability or all these other I mean, Duncan's an

1083
01:11:43,159 --> 01:11:44,880
expert in stability, by the way, you might want to

1084
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:47,199
talk to him about that. But they, you know, every

1085
01:11:47,279 --> 01:11:50,319
time they come in with a new regulation, the health checks,

1086
01:11:50,319 --> 01:11:52,239
all that kind of stuff. It has a cost, you know,

1087
01:11:52,399 --> 01:11:57,239
And I don't think they always People always that make

1088
01:11:57,319 --> 01:12:00,560
decisions always recognize these things, or maybe the recognize them,

1089
01:12:00,600 --> 01:12:04,960
but don't recognize the severity of these things. And something

1090
01:12:05,039 --> 01:12:09,119
that means a five percent increasing costs for a fisherman

1091
01:12:09,159 --> 01:12:10,920
at the bottom end of the scale, you know, a

1092
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:14,359
little boat who does the job because that's what he

1093
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,319
or she wants to do, not because they're out to

1094
01:12:17,359 --> 01:12:20,399
make a million pounds. You know, they can be quite

1095
01:12:20,720 --> 01:12:25,399
strongly impacted by minor changes in the gear that they

1096
01:12:25,880 --> 01:12:27,720
they're allowed to use, or you know, all sorts of

1097
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:31,279
things that can impact them. So yeah, we need to

1098
01:12:31,359 --> 01:12:34,399
keep educating people in power, you know that make the decisions.

1099
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:38,560
That's for the NFFO and the SFF and Scott's Wife

1100
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:42,439
Fish Fish Producers Association all come in as they're such

1101
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:47,399
important organizations because they are trying to educate policymakers all

1102
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:47,840
the time.

1103
01:12:48,119 --> 01:12:52,760
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, well you've probably answered the next point.

1104
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:57,359
Magnets with that or emissioned targets and environmental policy has

1105
01:12:57,439 --> 01:13:02,239
been set with a real grasp with hout especially actually

1106
01:13:02,319 --> 01:13:02,720
open it.

1107
01:13:04,199 --> 01:13:07,960
Speaker 3: Sometimes. I mean, so what Duncan's been talking about here

1108
01:13:08,039 --> 01:13:10,319
are exactly the sort of things that the industry can do.

1109
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:15,680
They are minor amendments, minor changes. When last time, after

1110
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,560
the spiking prices, the government came out with an engine

1111
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:24,760
replacement scheme for fishermen and you know, great idea, it'd

1112
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:27,800
be great if we could swap for boats where it's

1113
01:13:27,840 --> 01:13:30,880
appropriate where we could swap over to like hybrid system

1114
01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:34,119
or electric system or something, and there was money available.

1115
01:13:34,159 --> 01:13:36,920
But trouble as the fishermen had to pay out to

1116
01:13:37,039 --> 01:13:39,159
do it, and the cost I can't remember the cost

1117
01:13:39,279 --> 01:13:43,439
is for a brand new electric propulsion system, but it's

1118
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:47,600
a significant amount of money to a small boat operator.

1119
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:52,199
And it's also a problem when you know, when I

1120
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:56,239
go into a room full of skippers, I'm a young man, Jim.

1121
01:13:56,439 --> 01:13:58,960
You know, there's sort of a lot of skippers are

1122
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:02,039
in the late fifties, early sixties, and they're looking and

1123
01:14:02,159 --> 01:14:04,399
being told, you know what it'll cost you thirty thousand

1124
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:07,079
pounds or forty thousand pounds for a new propulsion system,

1125
01:14:08,199 --> 01:14:09,600
and they think I'll go be out of this in

1126
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:12,840
five years time, you know, yeah, you know, you know.

1127
01:14:13,039 --> 01:14:16,920
So what I would like to see from government is

1128
01:14:17,560 --> 01:14:21,119
in terms of policies, is to recognize that these small

1129
01:14:21,199 --> 01:14:27,960
wins are worthwhile and to help fund those small changes

1130
01:14:28,000 --> 01:14:31,600
that fishermen make, such as fuel motors and ecomotors and

1131
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:34,920
prop paint and all the other minor changes that you

1132
01:14:35,039 --> 01:14:37,479
can that you can do. And so you know, that's

1133
01:14:37,479 --> 01:14:40,000
something that's in the wheelhouse, that's that's telling fisher and

1134
01:14:40,039 --> 01:14:43,159
how much fuel they're using per earth so or a

1135
01:14:43,279 --> 01:14:46,399
mile or whatever. So I think that's that I would

1136
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:48,279
love to see that come from government and that that

1137
01:14:48,319 --> 01:14:50,359
would be a real step forward, duncan.

1138
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:52,720
Speaker 2: If I just sort of come in on that a

1139
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:55,720
little bit. There was that engine replacement scheme that you're

1140
01:14:55,760 --> 01:14:58,960
talking about, and it had an option for the sort

1141
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:03,279
of hybrids or battery propulsion systems, and it was quite

1142
01:15:03,319 --> 01:15:07,159
a good offer, but I think the people that it

1143
01:15:07,279 --> 01:15:12,319
was targeted at didn't know about it, didn't understand how

1144
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:16,640
to go about getting it, and didn't understand what would

1145
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:19,319
be suitable for their vessel, and that was kind of

1146
01:15:19,399 --> 01:15:23,640
part of the challenge. And the hybrid bit was maybe

1147
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:28,920
a little earily, but on the sort, very often for

1148
01:15:29,039 --> 01:15:32,840
government funding it seems to be very difficult to get.

1149
01:15:34,399 --> 01:15:38,680
We've done a couple of projects in Norway in aquaculture

1150
01:15:39,359 --> 01:15:45,920
and they had a very very simple way of promoting electrification,

1151
01:15:46,159 --> 01:15:51,439
which was for every killer what of battery you had

1152
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:55,680
on board, you've got a certain amount of knockies back

1153
01:15:55,800 --> 01:16:00,920
from the government, and that amount was more than what

1154
01:16:01,039 --> 01:16:04,079
the batteries cost. So there was a big incentive to

1155
01:16:04,159 --> 01:16:08,079
guys when they were building boats to put on the

1156
01:16:08,159 --> 01:16:12,119
biggest battery possible because actually it helped to fund other

1157
01:16:12,239 --> 01:16:15,800
bits on board their boat. And that's meant that now

1158
01:16:16,319 --> 01:16:20,680
Norway has a huge hybrid fleet and that's a big

1159
01:16:20,760 --> 01:16:27,159
reduction in their their fuel use, especially in aquaculture, but

1160
01:16:27,279 --> 01:16:32,600
also I think some of their fishing vessels. And from

1161
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:35,119
what we saw of that, that was like one form

1162
01:16:35,239 --> 01:16:38,439
sent to government, a couple of receipts and then they

1163
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:42,680
just got got money. Where I know some people that

1164
01:16:42,720 --> 01:16:46,319
have done the engine replacement scheme in it it was

1165
01:16:46,399 --> 01:16:53,479
a lot of letters and application forms and it worked well.

1166
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:56,800
They got they got their money, but it just seemed

1167
01:16:57,199 --> 01:16:58,000
hard work for.

1168
01:16:58,159 --> 01:17:04,119
Speaker 3: Them, very complex. The UK application systems a differ system is.

1169
01:17:04,520 --> 01:17:07,199
I mean, I work in a university and if I

1170
01:17:07,359 --> 01:17:10,199
mentioned defer to my I have a whole not me person,

1171
01:17:10,279 --> 01:17:12,199
but the universe had a whole office of people who

1172
01:17:12,199 --> 01:17:15,520
are involved in funding applications. When I mentioned differ, they

1173
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:19,159
run away and hide, you know, because of the application

1174
01:17:19,239 --> 01:17:21,439
systems so difficult, But somebody else don't. I think it's

1175
01:17:21,439 --> 01:17:24,079
a conversation we've had previously dunking, but I think one

1176
01:17:24,119 --> 01:17:28,800
of the needs could be for fishermen to have access

1177
01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:31,800
to people like like dunking around the country, so when

1178
01:17:31,840 --> 01:17:34,119
they want to make a change in their propulsion system,

1179
01:17:34,399 --> 01:17:36,279
they can go and get some good advice, you know,

1180
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:39,119
somebody that can say right for your boat in that

1181
01:17:39,319 --> 01:17:42,279
situation the thing that you're doing. These are the options

1182
01:17:42,319 --> 01:17:44,920
that you could think about and like a clinic, you know,

1183
01:17:45,159 --> 01:17:47,520
like a skipper could go to a clinic, a fuel

1184
01:17:47,640 --> 01:17:51,800
reduction clinic with somebody that knows what they're talking about

1185
01:17:52,479 --> 01:17:55,479
and just get some because it's it's every boat is

1186
01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:58,079
different in it you know, every skipper is different, every

1187
01:17:58,439 --> 01:18:00,000
use of the boat is different, and they need different

1188
01:18:00,159 --> 01:18:03,159
advice for different circumstances. And that would be one thing

1189
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:06,880
that government could do which would be a massive step forward.

1190
01:18:06,960 --> 01:18:09,199
You know, that would be a really good thing.

1191
01:18:10,119 --> 01:18:14,279
Speaker 2: It's one of the things, especially with electrification and fitting batteries,

1192
01:18:14,600 --> 01:18:18,159
is you can't have the same level of spare capacity

1193
01:18:18,279 --> 01:18:20,880
that you do with diesel. You know, you can fit

1194
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:24,199
a tack that does you a week two weeks on

1195
01:18:24,680 --> 01:18:28,640
some of these small boats, but you just can't fit

1196
01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:31,319
a battery that size. It's got to be more suited

1197
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:35,600
to the exact operation you're going to do. So that

1198
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:38,279
level of advice needs to be a little bit more

1199
01:18:39,159 --> 01:18:43,119
detailed than it does for a diesel boat.

1200
01:18:46,119 --> 01:18:50,359
Speaker 1: I have to say, guys that one of the things

1201
01:18:50,399 --> 01:18:56,239
that really hardens me is a recent recordings, as I said,

1202
01:18:56,359 --> 01:18:59,159
with the people from E Commotives and the people from

1203
01:18:59,479 --> 01:19:08,880
Assure Marine listening to Duncan today. I think it's brilliant, Magnus,

1204
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:15,439
that there's that minds still around and industry has access

1205
01:19:15,560 --> 01:19:19,840
to them, clever, clever people, And I think it's so

1206
01:19:20,359 --> 01:19:24,800
refreshing to know that there is clever guys like that.

1207
01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:27,720
Speaker 3: So you're not including me there.

1208
01:19:30,920 --> 01:19:33,760
Speaker 2: Oh you're to say, what about magnets.

1209
01:19:36,279 --> 01:19:43,319
Speaker 1: Chat You're in a university, You're excluded. I mean hands

1210
01:19:43,359 --> 01:19:46,079
on people actually in the industry.

1211
01:19:46,439 --> 01:19:48,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's a real talent there is, There

1212
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:51,399
is talent around. We should be nurturing it, looking after it.

1213
01:19:51,960 --> 01:19:56,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I think it's It's where I might push

1214
01:19:56,399 --> 01:19:59,520
back at you here, Jim, is a lot of the

1215
01:19:59,600 --> 01:20:03,960
smart people I meet are out there working on fishing boats.

1216
01:20:05,279 --> 01:20:09,760
Speaker 2: They're not academically smart necessarily like like Magnus, but they

1217
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:13,880
are understanding and their intuition for for what their boat does,

1218
01:20:14,359 --> 01:20:19,960
what it needs, how it's moving is is incredible, and

1219
01:20:21,199 --> 01:20:26,640
you know, everyone brings something different to the table. It happens.

1220
01:20:26,720 --> 01:20:29,640
I understand how to how to draw boats and a

1221
01:20:29,720 --> 01:20:33,920
little bit of how the the resistance and stability works

1222
01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:38,560
dround that, but it's it's a collective from everyone in

1223
01:20:38,640 --> 01:20:39,279
the industry.

1224
01:20:41,479 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that I appreciated that, Duncan you trying

1225
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:55,159
to get one over on me with Magnus when you

1226
01:20:55,319 --> 01:20:59,239
say that earlier, Magnus and well maybe dunking with an

1227
01:20:59,439 --> 01:21:03,119
answer that you just alluded on it. Are there particular

1228
01:21:03,239 --> 01:21:09,079
types of vessel where these technologies are more effective?

1229
01:21:12,199 --> 01:21:16,239
Speaker 2: So in terms of the list I had earlier things

1230
01:21:16,319 --> 01:21:20,279
you can change on the boat, they'll work for all

1231
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:24,640
vessels to some extent, depending on where your baseline is.

1232
01:21:25,760 --> 01:21:32,239
A lot of the time, Actually, the bigger vessels with

1233
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:38,000
more fuel consumption will see the benefit quicker in terms

1234
01:21:38,079 --> 01:21:42,119
of the cost is probably a smaller proportion of what

1235
01:21:42,239 --> 01:21:46,319
their fuel bill is, so that saving will be made

1236
01:21:46,359 --> 01:21:50,359
in a shorter timeframe. There their sort of return on investment.

1237
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:55,600
But when you look forward to that sort of electrification

1238
01:21:56,239 --> 01:22:01,399
side of things, it really suits the the smaller vessels

1239
01:22:01,479 --> 01:22:07,079
with with a low power profile and short operation and

1240
01:22:07,199 --> 01:22:10,840
certainly it's it's a big investment to make that change,

1241
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:16,600
and I do think that there probably will be pots

1242
01:22:16,640 --> 01:22:19,199
of money that people can tap into for that to

1243
01:22:19,640 --> 01:22:22,199
help with it, but that would make a big difference

1244
01:22:22,279 --> 01:22:26,039
to the the day to day cost of running a boat.

1245
01:22:28,399 --> 01:22:33,920
Speaker 1: Indeed, if a skipper invests in a system can genuinely

1246
01:22:34,039 --> 01:22:38,359
improve the economics of their trip, so I.

1247
01:22:38,359 --> 01:22:42,039
Speaker 2: Would say yes, And in a lot of cases, if

1248
01:22:42,159 --> 01:22:45,239
if you invest in in a lot of these systems

1249
01:22:45,279 --> 01:22:47,960
that that that make the boat more efficient, it's it's

1250
01:22:48,039 --> 01:22:51,000
going to make you use less fuel and that's gonna

1251
01:22:51,239 --> 01:22:54,239
going to save you money on a on a trip basis.

1252
01:22:55,079 --> 01:22:59,279
One of the things that I would maybe just gently

1253
01:22:59,359 --> 01:23:04,760
warn about, especially in that maybe looking slightly further ahead,

1254
01:23:05,760 --> 01:23:10,319
is there will be technologies that will get outdated quite

1255
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:13,119
quickly or will be proved not to be the best choice.

1256
01:23:14,039 --> 01:23:19,399
So if you install a certain battery system, there's a

1257
01:23:19,520 --> 01:23:24,920
chance that the charging, powering, or voltage or something will

1258
01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:27,840
change in your area and then you'll be left with

1259
01:23:29,319 --> 01:23:32,560
struggling to figure out a good way around that. Or

1260
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:37,800
A pretty good example from a sort of opposite industry

1261
01:23:37,960 --> 01:23:46,079
is the relatively recent news about Aberdeen's hydrogen bus fleet

1262
01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:52,640
that they invested in in twenty and twenty one. Effectively

1263
01:23:52,720 --> 01:23:54,760
they don't have a hydrogen supply for it, and the

1264
01:23:54,840 --> 01:23:59,880
buses have been sitting not working, so they they bought something,

1265
01:24:01,399 --> 01:24:05,760
but the supply to run it isn't there, and actually

1266
01:24:05,960 --> 01:24:10,159
that they're making a full pivot towards doing battery electric

1267
01:24:10,239 --> 01:24:15,439
for those buses, which I thought was quite interesting in

1268
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:21,399
terms of you know, that risk is something that you

1269
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:24,239
can survive as a as a bus company especially. I

1270
01:24:24,279 --> 01:24:28,039
think there's probably some backing from from council towards that.

1271
01:24:28,760 --> 01:24:33,720
But if you're an individual operator owner of a fishing boat,

1272
01:24:34,159 --> 01:24:38,119
if you invest in the wrong technology and it becomes outdated,

1273
01:24:38,279 --> 01:24:42,079
that's that's your full livelihood on the line, and that's

1274
01:24:42,119 --> 01:24:47,680
a real concern. So trying to find good mature solutions

1275
01:24:47,960 --> 01:24:53,439
that that maybe also there's a door to step back through.

1276
01:24:55,039 --> 01:24:58,319
You know, courting your propeller, there's there's a door to

1277
01:24:58,359 --> 01:25:01,720
step back through. You can you can scrape that off

1278
01:25:01,800 --> 01:25:05,039
if it didn't work and it made it worse. Obviously

1279
01:25:05,119 --> 01:25:08,039
that's not the case from what we've been hearing, and

1280
01:25:08,399 --> 01:25:12,079
the same with the ecomotive system. If it didn't work,

1281
01:25:12,079 --> 01:25:13,920
if it didn't make your engine more efficient. If it

1282
01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:16,479
actually made you burn more fuel, which I'm not in

1283
01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:19,720
any way suggesting that it does, you can take it off.

1284
01:25:20,439 --> 01:25:24,119
It's not such a high value item that that loss

1285
01:25:24,159 --> 01:25:27,119
would would necessarily put you a business. But if you

1286
01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:31,560
ripped out your engine and then put in a hydrogen

1287
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:36,079
tank and a fuel cell and then there's no hydrogen supply,

1288
01:25:36,319 --> 01:25:39,479
that's very scary to your business.

1289
01:25:40,319 --> 01:25:42,000
Speaker 3: I think we're at the stage and we see this

1290
01:25:42,079 --> 01:25:44,880
in other areas, and you've seen this yourself, Jim, in

1291
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:49,039
your long career. We're at that stage where it's early

1292
01:25:49,119 --> 01:25:52,399
adopters that are taking up technology and they're trying it out.

1293
01:25:52,399 --> 01:25:55,119
And these are the madmen like hands uncles, you know,

1294
01:25:55,199 --> 01:25:59,560
who's fearless in his approach. He's absolutely gone for it

1295
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:02,439
and it's custom, you know, and he's you know, he's

1296
01:26:02,920 --> 01:26:06,039
really gone in for this electric boat. But not everyone

1297
01:26:06,159 --> 01:26:07,880
can do that, and not everyone wants to do that,

1298
01:26:08,039 --> 01:26:11,800
and it takes these people, these sort of people at

1299
01:26:11,840 --> 01:26:14,520
the cutting edge, really to have a go first and

1300
01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:17,039
then other people will follow along behind. And that's been

1301
01:26:18,000 --> 01:26:20,920
historic in fisheries, I think, you know, from going from

1302
01:26:21,199 --> 01:26:25,279
sale over the steam or using sounders or changing nets

1303
01:26:25,399 --> 01:26:27,880
or using you know, the development of the auto troll

1304
01:26:28,039 --> 01:26:30,760
and people have changed things over time, but those early

1305
01:26:30,800 --> 01:26:34,159
adopters are critical in the development of industry and with

1306
01:26:34,239 --> 01:26:38,560
this the carbonization drive, it's going to be the same.

1307
01:26:38,920 --> 01:26:40,840
It's the same thing. The early adopters are the people

1308
01:26:40,920 --> 01:26:42,520
leading the way, and what we need to do is

1309
01:26:43,119 --> 01:26:47,960
support them better, you know. So, I mean, I would

1310
01:26:48,119 --> 01:26:50,159
like to see people are willing to give something a go,

1311
01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:54,079
having an open hand from government saying okay, but we

1312
01:26:54,159 --> 01:26:56,399
know it's a risk. We're not one hundred percent sure

1313
01:26:56,439 --> 01:26:59,159
it's going to work, but you know we're going to

1314
01:26:59,199 --> 01:27:01,279
support you and let you have a go because we

1315
01:27:01,840 --> 01:27:06,319
recognize the fact that if this works, then we're going

1316
01:27:06,399 --> 01:27:10,279
to see So imagine, so say my wonderful idea of

1317
01:27:11,079 --> 01:27:14,520
my boat's data thing works and it saves even ten

1318
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:18,439
percent of the fuel costs for an individual skipper, or

1319
01:27:18,479 --> 01:27:21,199
even five percent, And you do the sums and look

1320
01:27:21,199 --> 01:27:24,279
at how much fuel we're using per day around the UK,

1321
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:27,000
just in the small boat sector. I did it myself

1322
01:27:27,079 --> 01:27:28,840
a while ago, and I'm not evening to tell you

1323
01:27:28,880 --> 01:27:30,600
the number because I couldn't believe it. I had to

1324
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:33,239
go away and do the sums again, if we could

1325
01:27:33,319 --> 01:27:37,960
save five ten percent of fuel using ecomotives, propeller coatings,

1326
01:27:38,319 --> 01:27:41,800
driving more slowly changing behavior, not switching keeping it, switching

1327
01:27:41,800 --> 01:27:43,720
the engine off when you come aside all those things,

1328
01:27:44,399 --> 01:27:47,479
if we could save it's a massive, massive amount of

1329
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:51,279
fuel and money the country or the industry as a

1330
01:27:51,319 --> 01:27:53,359
whole would be saving. And I would like to see

1331
01:27:53,399 --> 01:27:57,800
government finding me encouraging people to try things out and

1332
01:27:58,279 --> 01:28:03,800
adopt adopt things, you know, because there's partly because the

1333
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:06,119
government has to be the people that do this, because

1334
01:28:06,119 --> 01:28:09,079
there is no single solution, you know, So we need

1335
01:28:09,199 --> 01:28:11,439
people to be trying out different things and for people

1336
01:28:11,560 --> 01:28:15,199
like Duncan and me and other skippers and skippers to

1337
01:28:15,359 --> 01:28:18,600
learn from that and so right in that situation this works.

1338
01:28:19,039 --> 01:28:21,560
In that situation, that doesn't work, but this might work,

1339
01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:25,560
you know, And so the industry needs support to develop

1340
01:28:25,640 --> 01:28:28,479
these myriad of different solutions there are to all the

1341
01:28:28,560 --> 01:28:30,680
different ways that we work. I mean, you can look

1342
01:28:30,720 --> 01:28:32,640
around the country just as an example, if you look

1343
01:28:32,680 --> 01:28:35,000
around the country and look at boat designs, you look

1344
01:28:35,039 --> 01:28:38,159
at cobbles in my part of the world, they're completely

1345
01:28:38,239 --> 01:28:41,039
different to a Shetland model, you know, And that's for

1346
01:28:41,159 --> 01:28:43,920
good reason. That's because fishermen have evolved a method that

1347
01:28:44,000 --> 01:28:45,960
works in that part and that, you know, for the

1348
01:28:46,159 --> 01:28:47,880
things they want to do and the things So it's

1349
01:28:47,920 --> 01:28:50,920
going to be the same with these adaptations to reducing

1350
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:53,359
carbon cost. It's going to be that there are different

1351
01:28:53,439 --> 01:28:57,159
solutions for different ports, different methods, different boats, different sizes

1352
01:28:57,199 --> 01:28:59,920
of boats, different you know, and it's not a simple thing.

1353
01:29:00,159 --> 01:29:04,039
So that's why we need external support in order to

1354
01:29:04,119 --> 01:29:04,600
develop them.

1355
01:29:06,000 --> 01:29:09,720
Speaker 1: When you're saying that, Magnus, I feel you can correct

1356
01:29:09,760 --> 01:29:15,319
me dunking. But that's what I see in David Stephen.

1357
01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:19,039
He seems to be a kind of guy that's willing

1358
01:29:19,199 --> 01:29:23,920
to have a go, he's willing to invest, and he's

1359
01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:29,439
not frightened of the dreaded word change, and he's certainly

1360
01:29:29,560 --> 01:29:33,399
very positive that this is saving him a lot of money.

1361
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:38,720
So it'd be interested to hear more from Duncan on

1362
01:29:39,039 --> 01:29:45,640
the long term success of that in the future. Definitely,

1363
01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:52,279
I agree. So technology can help Duncan, but it's only

1364
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:56,840
one piece of the puzzle. The pressures of fishermen remain

1365
01:29:57,119 --> 01:30:01,520
very real, and the question becomes how the fleet adapt

1366
01:30:01,680 --> 01:30:03,840
to survive in today's conditions.

1367
01:30:06,399 --> 01:30:12,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean It's a very difficult question. There's

1368
01:30:12,720 --> 01:30:17,479
no specific answer to it because it's going to look

1369
01:30:17,640 --> 01:30:21,479
so different for for all the different boats. What the

1370
01:30:21,920 --> 01:30:25,239
best way for them to move forward and survive is.

1371
01:30:26,199 --> 01:30:30,119
But talking in general, as as we've sort of bashed

1372
01:30:30,159 --> 01:30:35,520
on about this this conversation, is the best ways to

1373
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:38,479
save fuel, the most economic ways to save fuel on

1374
01:30:38,640 --> 01:30:42,560
board your vessel is going to be key in that.

1375
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:47,159
And then the other thing is is unlocking the maximum

1376
01:30:48,279 --> 01:30:51,840
price you can get for your product. And that's how

1377
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:55,239
we've got to move to adapt. And this is actually

1378
01:30:55,279 --> 01:30:58,720
where I've got got a suggestion for you is have

1379
01:30:58,800 --> 01:31:02,640
you ever spoken to anyone from the Icelandic Ocean Cluster

1380
01:31:03,239 --> 01:31:08,560
And they are one hundred percent fish initiative, So I'm

1381
01:31:08,600 --> 01:31:12,000
gonna butcher this and I would really recommend you get

1382
01:31:12,119 --> 01:31:15,159
someone from that on to talk about it. But they

1383
01:31:15,279 --> 01:31:17,960
looked at how to improve the value that they get

1384
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:22,119
out of the fish, and that's down to lots of

1385
01:31:22,199 --> 01:31:25,600
different businesses working together to see what they could do

1386
01:31:25,840 --> 01:31:28,920
with what's that, you know, the byproduct of the fish,

1387
01:31:29,319 --> 01:31:32,720
and in doing that they greatly increase the value that

1388
01:31:32,840 --> 01:31:36,520
they get for every fish call. You know, there's some

1389
01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:40,800
of the fish skin is used in medicine or bandages.

1390
01:31:42,319 --> 01:31:45,720
There's companies using the fish bones to make toys for

1391
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:49,640
kids and a huge variety of things. But all of

1392
01:31:49,680 --> 01:31:54,239
that adds up to give them an increased value for

1393
01:31:54,359 --> 01:31:56,920
the fish. And I think you would have a great

1394
01:31:57,000 --> 01:32:00,000
conversation with with someone from that and it would be

1395
01:32:00,119 --> 01:32:03,439
worthwhile hearing. I think I've seen something about there being

1396
01:32:03,880 --> 01:32:08,399
a Scottish ocean cluster that's trying to follow a similar idea,

1397
01:32:08,479 --> 01:32:12,159
but I haven't read enough about that to really have

1398
01:32:12,279 --> 01:32:15,319
any information, but that that is the two parts that

1399
01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:18,399
how do we get more money for fish and how

1400
01:32:18,439 --> 01:32:21,279
do we spend less money on fuel catching it.

1401
01:32:23,840 --> 01:32:29,359
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree with you more Duncan, and I definitely

1402
01:32:29,359 --> 01:32:32,960
I would definitely like to get in touch that people

1403
01:32:33,039 --> 01:32:36,119
I know have good friends in Iceland. Booked a lot.

1404
01:32:36,520 --> 01:32:40,920
But when you're saying that about you say that is

1405
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,319
one of the things that was in my mind earlier

1406
01:32:43,399 --> 01:32:46,520
when I was suggesting that we get the shore side

1407
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:53,439
in the room, because it's just shocking the percentage of

1408
01:32:53,800 --> 01:32:57,800
fish in this country that end up in the awful bin.

1409
01:32:58,800 --> 01:33:03,159
And an exactly when you say to look at what

1410
01:33:03,279 --> 01:33:07,279
the Icelanders are doing far as oil with the liver,

1411
01:33:08,319 --> 01:33:11,960
and there's so many things. But one of my favorite

1412
01:33:12,079 --> 01:33:17,079
cuts of fish is a belly the belly flap and

1413
01:33:17,199 --> 01:33:21,680
it's cut off and it goes into the bin. And

1414
01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:24,760
I try to do a lot of that. When I

1415
01:33:24,840 --> 01:33:28,840
had my own restaurant in Scrabster, one of the most

1416
01:33:29,079 --> 01:33:34,920
and it was very, very popular. Monkfish liver. Now it's

1417
01:33:35,039 --> 01:33:43,279
an absolute delicacy in Japan, worth the fortune hours. When

1418
01:33:43,359 --> 01:33:46,399
the fish is gutted, it goes back over the side.

1419
01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:50,800
So I couldn't agree with you more there, Duncan. We

1420
01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:54,159
have a long long way to go and get more

1421
01:33:54,279 --> 01:33:59,479
out the fish. And what I said earlier, keep more.

1422
01:33:59,560 --> 01:34:05,680
Don't put a small haddache in the bait box, get

1423
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:09,640
get it on this slab, get it in the fishmonger's shop,

1424
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:14,359
get it in the fish and chip shops. We're importing

1425
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:20,840
ninety five percent of the fish that our fryers use.

1426
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:29,239
This comes from Norway and Iceland, and we're putting perfect

1427
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:33,199
fish for a fryer into the giving it to the

1428
01:34:33,279 --> 01:34:39,039
lobsters as bait. I couldn't agree with that more, Duncan.

1429
01:34:39,880 --> 01:34:42,000
And I would love to speak to that people.

1430
01:34:43,760 --> 01:34:48,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was it was a fisheries innovation and sustainability event.

1431
01:34:48,279 --> 01:34:50,880
I heard about it, so I think you've spoken to

1432
01:34:51,000 --> 01:34:53,680
Kara before, but she would be able to connect you.

1433
01:34:56,199 --> 01:34:59,520
Speaker 1: Excellent. Do you agree with that, Magnus absolutely.

1434
01:34:59,760 --> 01:35:02,880
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting because normally when we talk about

1435
01:35:03,279 --> 01:35:06,920
increasing the value of fish, we mean that people like

1436
01:35:07,640 --> 01:35:10,560
Chris Bean of Skipper on the South Coast, and he

1437
01:35:10,720 --> 01:35:13,640
used to have his own during the summer, so he's

1438
01:35:13,680 --> 01:35:16,119
in Cornwall. Devin's up the area, so there's quite a

1439
01:35:16,199 --> 01:35:18,319
big tourist areas in the summer. There's lots of people

1440
01:35:18,319 --> 01:35:22,159
around that want to buy fresh, locally caught fish and

1441
01:35:22,239 --> 01:35:24,279
they're in the mood to experiment. And that's normally what

1442
01:35:24,359 --> 01:35:26,399
we think about when we talk about increasing the value

1443
01:35:26,399 --> 01:35:30,079
of fish. It's having short supply chains, selling direct from

1444
01:35:30,159 --> 01:35:34,479
the skipper to the consumer. But what Duncan's talking about,

1445
01:35:34,520 --> 01:35:37,600
which is maximizing the use of you know, yes, we

1446
01:35:37,720 --> 01:35:39,359
need to get people to eat more than just cord

1447
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:41,840
and haddock. You know, we need to get people eating

1448
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:45,720
the whole diversity of fish. But the other solution is

1449
01:35:45,880 --> 01:35:48,880
just is to make more of the commercial species that

1450
01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:52,279
come in bulk. You know, pollock, cord had it place,

1451
01:35:52,399 --> 01:35:54,960
you know, I'll say all these things and get the

1452
01:35:55,039 --> 01:35:58,159
most out of them, And I think that's absolutely using

1453
01:35:58,239 --> 01:36:03,039
technology and research to get the use even things like netrops.

1454
01:36:03,079 --> 01:36:04,800
I know that we be seafoods have been looking a

1455
01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:12,800
lot at finding ways to use the shelves the exoskeletons

1456
01:36:12,840 --> 01:36:15,279
of nephrops for other things.

1457
01:36:15,039 --> 01:36:15,199
Speaker 1: You know.

1458
01:36:16,159 --> 01:36:21,640
Speaker 3: And then the guys that are working doing the clawbinder research,

1459
01:36:21,680 --> 01:36:23,560
you know, they're looking at ways that can they use

1460
01:36:24,039 --> 01:36:28,560
things that are sourced biodegradable, things sourced from fish to

1461
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:30,800
make the things they want to make in order to

1462
01:36:31,199 --> 01:36:31,840
bind clothes.

1463
01:36:31,880 --> 01:36:32,000
Speaker 2: You know.

1464
01:36:32,279 --> 01:36:35,199
Speaker 3: So there's definitely technology and research got a big role

1465
01:36:35,319 --> 01:36:40,079
to play in trying to maximize the value that fishermen

1466
01:36:40,319 --> 01:36:43,520
get for their for their catch. But we need to

1467
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:45,840
make sure it's passed on, you know, so that that

1468
01:36:46,359 --> 01:36:48,279
value has passed on to the fishermen. They're not just

1469
01:36:48,359 --> 01:36:51,399
getting paid for what gets consumed as a as a

1470
01:36:51,479 --> 01:36:54,039
prime fill it. I don't know how you do that.

1471
01:36:54,600 --> 01:36:57,720
Speaker 1: When I had the restaurant I was doing this monkfish Lovers.

1472
01:36:58,199 --> 01:37:01,000
We had Japanese people using the restaurant a lot. They

1473
01:37:01,039 --> 01:37:03,920
were really good customers. They were in a joint venture

1474
01:37:04,199 --> 01:37:09,359
up here in a battery factory with the company still

1475
01:37:10,279 --> 01:37:15,880
still going. An important employer and Caithness here and they

1476
01:37:15,920 --> 01:37:21,600
were good, good customers, and they asked me they were

1477
01:37:21,640 --> 01:37:26,399
coming a lot on oysters. Oh, they were this brilliant.

1478
01:37:26,439 --> 01:37:29,560
And they came to me then and they says, look,

1479
01:37:29,600 --> 01:37:33,319
we're loving this. We want you to do some sashimi

1480
01:37:33,680 --> 01:37:38,880
for us and sister them. Look, I says, I'll be perfect.

1481
01:37:39,239 --> 01:37:42,439
I'll be one hundred percent upfront with you. I says,

1482
01:37:42,520 --> 01:37:46,199
we're a small business, small family business. My wife and

1483
01:37:46,279 --> 01:37:50,640
I in a small staff. I says, I would love

1484
01:37:50,800 --> 01:37:55,439
to do sashimi. That says, but this is my problem.

1485
01:37:56,439 --> 01:38:02,119
What I feel is you guys access to the best

1486
01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:10,039
sushi and sashimi Central London, Tokyo, absolute best top restaurants.

1487
01:38:10,159 --> 01:38:13,600
I says, you're important customers of min. I don't want

1488
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:16,560
to upset you and do it make a mistake or

1489
01:38:16,640 --> 01:38:23,239
do it wrong and maybe lose your business. And he

1490
01:38:23,319 --> 01:38:25,359
put the wee guy came up and he put his

1491
01:38:25,439 --> 01:38:30,680
hand on my shoulder and Jim and he's broken the Japanese.

1492
01:38:31,119 --> 01:38:34,680
He says to me, don't you forget He says, the

1493
01:38:34,840 --> 01:38:38,840
best sashimi is not how close you are to Tokyo,

1494
01:38:39,199 --> 01:38:43,880
Central Tokyo or London. He said, it's right here where

1495
01:38:43,920 --> 01:38:48,319
we can get the freshest fish. I just thought, wow,

1496
01:38:48,840 --> 01:38:53,239
you know what it was, and that was that was

1497
01:38:53,600 --> 01:38:58,520
cheek's cord and tongue, the tongues and the cheeks and

1498
01:38:59,079 --> 01:39:04,960
the cheeks of them bunk fish, just with Duncan said earlier,

1499
01:39:05,239 --> 01:39:09,840
just a bit using I was using the jaw. I

1500
01:39:10,000 --> 01:39:16,399
was cutting out the jaws of the monkfish and using them.

1501
01:39:17,439 --> 01:39:22,840
And when if somebody asked me about it, I would say, oh,

1502
01:39:22,920 --> 01:39:26,239
do you like a chicken wing? Yoh, yeah, like a

1503
01:39:26,359 --> 01:39:32,359
chicken wings as well? Their year chicken wing the sea excellent.

1504
01:39:33,319 --> 01:39:42,920
So yeah, definitely, I'm just all on that one. Are

1505
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:45,800
smaller than short boats more at risk? Do you feel?

1506
01:39:49,199 --> 01:39:50,800
Speaker 3: I just I think we can both answer that in

1507
01:39:51,039 --> 01:39:55,840
slightly different ways. So I think I think I think

1508
01:39:55,880 --> 01:40:01,000
they They are in some ways I and that's because

1509
01:40:01,000 --> 01:40:04,279
they're not as efficient as these great big boats. There's

1510
01:40:04,520 --> 01:40:09,159
what people call industrial fishing, you know, but they're really

1511
01:40:09,239 --> 01:40:12,960
important to local communities. I mean locally their value to

1512
01:40:13,039 --> 01:40:18,199
the economies is phenomenal. The Bridlington is built on the

1513
01:40:18,319 --> 01:40:21,279
backs of fishermen and not many of the boats are

1514
01:40:21,760 --> 01:40:26,520
that much more than ten meters, you know, and they're vulnerable.

1515
01:40:26,760 --> 01:40:29,520
The boats in the Clyde, you know, these middle scale

1516
01:40:29,640 --> 01:40:32,720
trawlers that work in the cloud, they're vulnerable to especially

1517
01:40:32,800 --> 01:40:35,840
these kind of oil price shocks. They're all trolling boats

1518
01:40:37,039 --> 01:40:40,039
and if we lose them, we lose a massive part

1519
01:40:40,079 --> 01:40:44,039
of our culture as much as anything else. And you know,

1520
01:40:44,159 --> 01:40:48,800
I think I've heard it quoted on this show several times,

1521
01:40:49,319 --> 01:40:53,760
one fisherman at one local fisherman at sea employees between

1522
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:55,399
seven and fifteen people ashore.

1523
01:40:55,840 --> 01:40:55,960
Speaker 2: You know.

1524
01:40:56,279 --> 01:40:59,840
Speaker 3: So these little boats that work in small ports around

1525
01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:03,600
the we're in the coaster are really valuable, but yes

1526
01:41:03,920 --> 01:41:07,399
they're threatened. You know, they cannot be as efficient as

1527
01:41:07,439 --> 01:41:09,800
a big offshore boat. If you look at the carbon

1528
01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:13,720
efficiency of an offshore trawler or saying that, you know,

1529
01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:18,319
they're the carbon efficiencies ten times better than a small

1530
01:41:18,359 --> 01:41:23,800
inshore boat. But they don't offer the same value in

1531
01:41:23,920 --> 01:41:27,079
terms of how they support local communities. I mean, I

1532
01:41:27,239 --> 01:41:27,920
don't think.

1533
01:41:30,039 --> 01:41:33,359
Speaker 2: I think I'd have a lot agreement with Magnus there.

1534
01:41:34,159 --> 01:41:37,199
I think the one thing is on the smaller, especially

1535
01:41:37,279 --> 01:41:42,560
static gearboats, is as we look forward towards the sort

1536
01:41:42,560 --> 01:41:46,000
of move away from fossil fuels. They've got a relatively

1537
01:41:46,199 --> 01:41:50,239
certain direction that they're going to go, which is towards

1538
01:41:50,279 --> 01:41:54,439
electrification for most of them and having batteries on board,

1539
01:41:55,560 --> 01:42:01,560
and that's actually it's hard for them right now, but

1540
01:42:01,680 --> 01:42:04,319
I can quite easily see how they continue the same

1541
01:42:04,399 --> 01:42:07,800
sort of operation boats Magnus was talking about on the

1542
01:42:07,880 --> 01:42:14,760
Clydes of small mid size trawlers. They are very vulnerable

1543
01:42:14,840 --> 01:42:20,119
to this and also very vulnerable to what happens in

1544
01:42:20,199 --> 01:42:22,199
the future for that type of boat because they're not

1545
01:42:23,159 --> 01:42:26,800
They're not an easy problem to solve in an etsyer world,

1546
01:42:28,720 --> 01:42:32,159
and I think that's one of the challenges I think

1547
01:42:32,279 --> 01:42:35,640
as as someone who designs boats and wants fishermen to

1548
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:40,000
be safe. My biggest concern whenever I hear about fuel

1549
01:42:40,039 --> 01:42:45,439
price spikes for small boats is that maybe a boat

1550
01:42:45,479 --> 01:42:48,680
that's normally two or three crew will decide to go

1551
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:53,479
out shorthanded or single handed and greatly increase the risk

1552
01:42:53,600 --> 01:42:58,199
profile to the fishermen at sea, and that really worries me.

1553
01:43:01,319 --> 01:43:04,159
It's a difficult problem. But obviously, if your fuel cost

1554
01:43:04,279 --> 01:43:08,159
goes up, if you can reduce your crew cost, then

1555
01:43:08,239 --> 01:43:14,439
you keep your business running, but I'd really advise anyone

1556
01:43:14,960 --> 01:43:18,880
thinking about doing that to really consider the risks fully

1557
01:43:19,039 --> 01:43:23,520
and take that on board. I think also, as we

1558
01:43:23,640 --> 01:43:28,520
mentioned earlier small boats, the cost of some of the

1559
01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:33,600
changes that an ecomotive system isn't going to be really

1560
01:43:33,680 --> 01:43:37,680
any cheaper for an eight meter boat than it will

1561
01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:41,800
be for a twenty four meter boat, but the savings

1562
01:43:41,840 --> 01:43:44,439
of the twenty four meter ball mate will be much

1563
01:43:44,479 --> 01:43:48,520
more significant, and that sort of level of being able

1564
01:43:48,600 --> 01:43:53,840
to invest to reduce is much harder for small boats.

1565
01:43:54,560 --> 01:43:58,439
Speaker 3: I think. One of the interesting things with this increase

1566
01:43:58,520 --> 01:44:01,840
in fuel price for the small boat sectors. I was

1567
01:44:01,920 --> 01:44:04,800
talking to Sarah already a while back, who lives in

1568
01:44:04,960 --> 01:44:09,039
Brixham and and her they are fishing family. They got

1569
01:44:09,159 --> 01:44:11,479
I think it's called the two brothers the boat and

1570
01:44:11,600 --> 01:44:15,159
they She she had this expression that you won't know

1571
01:44:15,199 --> 01:44:18,119
if you don't go, you know, And so fishermen used that,

1572
01:44:18,279 --> 01:44:20,720
you know, if you want to find some new ground

1573
01:44:20,800 --> 01:44:24,319
to fish, or you've got to invest and go an

1574
01:44:24,399 --> 01:44:26,600
extra one hundred miles or fifty miles or something like that.

1575
01:44:26,680 --> 01:44:29,359
When the fuel price spikes like this, you can no

1576
01:44:29,439 --> 01:44:32,000
longer do that. And what that means is. And then

1577
01:44:32,039 --> 01:44:33,920
what that meant last time was that boats were all

1578
01:44:33,960 --> 01:44:37,119
fishing closer the home, so the local grounds were the

1579
01:44:37,199 --> 01:44:41,079
grounds that were being used used up more quickly because

1580
01:44:41,119 --> 01:44:45,199
the fishermen weren't couldn't afford to go out and travel

1581
01:44:45,279 --> 01:44:48,359
further in order to catch stuff, you know, And that's

1582
01:44:48,399 --> 01:44:49,960
something we need to be aware of.

1583
01:44:50,079 --> 01:44:50,479
Speaker 2: I think.

1584
01:44:52,239 --> 01:44:56,600
Speaker 1: When Sally when the volume of fish and mentioned, my

1585
01:44:56,960 --> 01:44:59,920
mother used to always say, it is a man with

1586
01:45:00,119 --> 01:45:03,199
lost boat was lost at anything could see that. There's

1587
01:45:03,279 --> 01:45:07,039
the price of fish. That's the real or the true

1588
01:45:07,119 --> 01:45:10,920
price of fish. Are we valuing fish properly today?

1589
01:45:12,520 --> 01:45:12,560
Speaker 2: No?

1590
01:45:13,279 --> 01:45:20,359
Speaker 3: Well, oh so hard. Because my mother in law bought

1591
01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:24,319
me some sardines for Christmas and there were these beautiful

1592
01:45:26,239 --> 01:45:29,000
fish caught off the south coast. They are ten sardines

1593
01:45:29,560 --> 01:45:32,199
and I ate them and these are amazing. They were like,

1594
01:45:32,279 --> 01:45:35,840
it's very different to your sixty pence in the sardines

1595
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:37,960
that you get from Tesco's. And I thought, I'll get

1596
01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:40,159
some more of these, and I looked them up and

1597
01:45:40,199 --> 01:45:44,159
they're ten pounded, you know, and that's the value that

1598
01:45:44,279 --> 01:45:45,960
that's what they're worth. Though, you know, these I mean,

1599
01:45:46,000 --> 01:45:50,920
they were they were amazing, beautiful fish to eat. Now

1600
01:45:51,039 --> 01:45:54,159
I can afford to. I wouldn't do it very often,

1601
01:45:54,319 --> 01:45:57,479
but I can afford to spend ten pounds for a

1602
01:45:57,560 --> 01:46:01,319
treat for myself. But I want fish to be available

1603
01:46:01,560 --> 01:46:05,199
to people that don't live I want I want people

1604
01:46:05,239 --> 01:46:07,039
at the other end of you know, that aren't on

1605
01:46:07,159 --> 01:46:09,439
a big salary to be able to afford to eat

1606
01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:13,000
fish that's caught locally as well. So those sixty pence

1607
01:46:13,560 --> 01:46:17,760
tens of sardines in Tesco's, or get the Cornish saradine

1608
01:46:17,800 --> 01:46:21,119
one pound twenty for ten of sardines and cornish decent

1609
01:46:21,239 --> 01:46:26,960
qualities Cornish sardines. So you know, it's to be value fish.

1610
01:46:28,239 --> 01:46:30,720
Saying that it's like to be value cars. You know,

1611
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:32,279
at the one end of the spectrum, we've got the

1612
01:46:32,319 --> 01:46:34,560
sort of car that I drive, and at the other

1613
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:35,960
end of the spectrum, we've got the sort of car

1614
01:46:36,079 --> 01:46:36,640
that you drive.

1615
01:46:36,720 --> 01:46:36,880
Speaker 2: Gym.

1616
01:46:36,960 --> 01:46:40,439
Speaker 3: You know some no doubt it's a Jaguar or something

1617
01:46:40,439 --> 01:46:47,119
like that. Mine's a cheap Mine's a cheap car. So

1618
01:46:48,000 --> 01:46:52,359
I mean, different fish should be valid. Different fish should

1619
01:46:52,359 --> 01:46:55,840
be valued in different ways. You know, a lobster's valued

1620
01:46:56,279 --> 01:46:59,079
Christmas value of lobsters valued at forty pounds of kilo,

1621
01:46:59,199 --> 01:47:02,279
you know, and and and and that's a market.

1622
01:47:02,359 --> 01:47:03,359
Speaker 2: I'll buy it. They have to be.

1623
01:47:03,399 --> 01:47:09,319
Speaker 3: Italians and French and Spanish. Where's a crab, which in

1624
01:47:09,399 --> 01:47:12,680
my book is better eat? Sometimes it doesn't attract the

1625
01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:16,680
same amount of money. So I don't know if there's

1626
01:47:16,680 --> 01:47:19,600
an easy answer to that question to tell you that.

1627
01:47:20,960 --> 01:47:24,039
Speaker 1: I think there's an easy answer to the point you

1628
01:47:24,159 --> 01:47:30,840
made about my card. Let me and I'm quite I can.

1629
01:47:31,479 --> 01:47:35,560
I can hear fishermen all over Scotland laughing when they

1630
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:44,239
hear that, because my what I always say to anybody

1631
01:47:44,399 --> 01:47:49,920
you have to consider if you're driving a vehicle of mine,

1632
01:47:50,600 --> 01:47:56,680
there's one thing you can't afford to have an ego

1633
01:47:57,680 --> 01:48:03,840
ha I magnus.

1634
01:48:04,520 --> 01:48:05,079
Speaker 2: I have a.

1635
01:48:06,640 --> 01:48:10,840
Speaker 1: Seventeen plate van out of the door just now. That's

1636
01:48:11,119 --> 01:48:16,199
the vehicle I drive in. Have to be perfectly honest

1637
01:48:16,239 --> 01:48:20,079
about it and tell you why. Yes, back in the days,

1638
01:48:20,199 --> 01:48:24,279
I've had the beamers, the marks them all.

1639
01:48:25,960 --> 01:48:26,199
Speaker 2: You know.

1640
01:48:27,760 --> 01:48:32,560
Speaker 1: I shouldn't. I don't see it with any pride, but

1641
01:48:33,720 --> 01:48:36,640
they smell the fish the same way as my mind.

1642
01:48:39,520 --> 01:48:40,399
What's the point.

1643
01:48:43,880 --> 01:48:45,560
Speaker 3: My wife would say, that's why I've got a cheap car,

1644
01:48:45,640 --> 01:48:47,039
because I can't keep them clean.

1645
01:48:47,159 --> 01:48:57,600
Speaker 1: So no, I've my my limit. My budget for changing

1646
01:48:58,479 --> 01:49:04,600
my vehicle was five contrue bound. So you got that

1647
01:49:04,720 --> 01:49:13,920
one wrong, my friend. So and go back to that.

1648
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:18,000
Do we reduce it just another commodity, ignoring what it

1649
01:49:18,159 --> 01:49:20,840
actually takes to catch it, you know, with a value

1650
01:49:20,920 --> 01:49:21,359
of fish.

1651
01:49:23,399 --> 01:49:25,359
Speaker 3: Well, I think we. I mean, there's an education job

1652
01:49:25,439 --> 01:49:27,439
and it has been for years. We need to educate

1653
01:49:27,520 --> 01:49:32,439
people about what the industry is and about everything that's

1654
01:49:32,520 --> 01:49:34,239
but you can say it's for the whole food industry

1655
01:49:34,279 --> 01:49:37,840
by the way, you know, so people need to appreciate

1656
01:49:38,000 --> 01:49:40,880
all the effort that goes in by food producers to

1657
01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:44,880
make that thing that ends up in a packet in Tescos,

1658
01:49:44,920 --> 01:49:48,800
you know, or a tin Intescos or Sainsbury's or Mark suspenses.

1659
01:49:48,840 --> 01:49:52,399
You know, they need to appreciate that how much work

1660
01:49:52,600 --> 01:49:53,239
goes into that.

1661
01:49:53,960 --> 01:49:54,399
Speaker 2: And I don't.

1662
01:49:54,399 --> 01:49:58,359
Speaker 3: I think sometimes people don't, but lots of people do.

1663
01:49:58,960 --> 01:49:59,119
Speaker 2: You know.

1664
01:49:59,239 --> 01:50:01,119
Speaker 3: It's people are in trusted in food, the sort of

1665
01:50:01,119 --> 01:50:04,000
people would go to your restaurants. You know, they appreciate

1666
01:50:04,119 --> 01:50:07,840
good food. Well, appreciate the effort. But it's up to

1667
01:50:07,920 --> 01:50:11,239
people like you and me and other people in the

1668
01:50:11,279 --> 01:50:16,000
food industry to keep telling people, educate people about the

1669
01:50:16,159 --> 01:50:19,039
value of you know, what it takes to get that

1670
01:50:19,199 --> 01:50:20,600
fill on your plate in front of you.

1671
01:50:22,960 --> 01:50:27,079
Speaker 1: You know when you're saying that, both of ye I

1672
01:50:28,079 --> 01:50:32,119
am a really close friend who was almost going to

1673
01:50:32,199 --> 01:50:37,920
come in business with We're going to have a joint

1674
01:50:38,039 --> 01:50:42,520
venture ourselves with fish at the time. Oh, I'm going

1675
01:50:42,640 --> 01:50:48,920
back to the eighties to mid nineties, and unfortunately he

1676
01:50:49,199 --> 01:50:53,479
passed away very young. Didn't actually happen, but I thought

1677
01:50:53,560 --> 01:50:59,279
he was so what foresight he had and he looking

1678
01:51:00,119 --> 01:51:03,119
the industry at large, he says, you know, you've got

1679
01:51:03,159 --> 01:51:06,319
it wrong. He says, you've got it wrong with the product.

1680
01:51:06,399 --> 01:51:12,000
Your product. He said, it shouldn't be stack them high

1681
01:51:12,119 --> 01:51:15,760
and sell them cheap in a supermarket. He says, this

1682
01:51:15,840 --> 01:51:17,760
should be sold in delicatessens.

1683
01:51:19,800 --> 01:51:24,640
Speaker 3: I agree, but you do want other people, but you

1684
01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:27,640
want people that can't afford to go to a delicatessen

1685
01:51:28,159 --> 01:51:29,840
to eat our fish as well.

1686
01:51:30,119 --> 01:51:32,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's one of the issues I have every

1687
01:51:32,680 --> 01:51:36,439
time I go shopping and in the local shops here.

1688
01:51:37,039 --> 01:51:39,960
So you know, BAMFI micked off, which is where there's

1689
01:51:39,960 --> 01:51:44,119
a lot of fishing going on. Is all the fishing

1690
01:51:45,199 --> 01:51:49,439
the supermarket says, is not from the UK's it's foreign.

1691
01:51:51,640 --> 01:51:54,800
I try to go to the local fishmonger whenever I can,

1692
01:51:55,159 --> 01:51:59,039
but if you end up in Tesco's, I don't have

1693
01:51:59,119 --> 01:52:01,840
a choice to to buy anything from the UK a

1694
01:52:01,880 --> 01:52:06,399
lot of the time, which is I think probably a

1695
01:52:06,520 --> 01:52:11,600
big problem when you start talking about the value and

1696
01:52:12,159 --> 01:52:15,880
getting into economics and supply and demand, is that there's

1697
01:52:15,920 --> 01:52:19,359
a lot of supply from elsewhere that's coming in in

1698
01:52:19,479 --> 01:52:23,800
flooding that market, and that lowers the price.

1699
01:52:25,479 --> 01:52:27,800
Speaker 1: And did you look over your cyoulder before you bought

1700
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:35,000
the fish and discus it's to come back thinking is

1701
01:52:35,039 --> 01:52:39,520
it too much focus being put on new technology and

1702
01:52:39,640 --> 01:52:44,319
not enough on how boats are operated? Or do you

1703
01:52:44,399 --> 01:52:48,039
feel technology is the way the future?

1704
01:52:49,159 --> 01:52:53,760
Speaker 2: So how boats are operated is probably one of the

1705
01:52:53,880 --> 01:52:59,000
key things as to making an efficient industry, but lots

1706
01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:02,880
of those are all ready efficiently operated with people very

1707
01:53:02,960 --> 01:53:06,520
good and the only way to improve it further then

1708
01:53:06,640 --> 01:53:15,239
becomes technology. In discussions I've had previously with someone in

1709
01:53:15,359 --> 01:53:21,039
aquaculture who knows about a hybrid boat that went into service,

1710
01:53:22,000 --> 01:53:25,920
it was actually using more fuel than the equivalent diesel

1711
01:53:26,039 --> 01:53:30,600
vessel was before because the guys running the boat weren't

1712
01:53:30,640 --> 01:53:38,720
running it efficiently. So you can't out technology personnel problem.

1713
01:53:40,600 --> 01:53:48,600
But equally, we can't magically operate the boats more efficiently

1714
01:53:48,680 --> 01:53:50,199
than where their limits are.

1715
01:53:52,439 --> 01:53:55,800
Speaker 1: If it continues a where that is, are we simply

1716
01:53:55,920 --> 01:53:57,239
heading for a smaller fleet.

1717
01:53:58,520 --> 01:54:01,439
Speaker 3: Well, we're already hidden that way, already lost a lot

1718
01:54:01,479 --> 01:54:04,119
of the especially smaller boats around the coast, and that

1719
01:54:04,439 --> 01:54:08,720
it might unfortunately that might be partly again, it's not

1720
01:54:08,960 --> 01:54:12,119
just driven by just fuel prices, by the fact the

1721
01:54:12,159 --> 01:54:15,760
boats are more efficient, I can catch more now and

1722
01:54:15,960 --> 01:54:19,640
maybe and there's a sort of a sort of management

1723
01:54:19,680 --> 01:54:25,279
impositions as well. And one of the I really believe

1724
01:54:25,439 --> 01:54:28,239
that management has a real role to play here that

1725
01:54:28,600 --> 01:54:32,880
the fact that we kind of fishermen end up forcing

1726
01:54:33,039 --> 01:54:35,560
to be in this kind of fisherman that's either your

1727
01:54:35,640 --> 01:54:37,960
potter or your trawler or you're a netter or your

1728
01:54:38,319 --> 01:54:41,479
you know, and you cannot fish for what is there

1729
01:54:41,680 --> 01:54:45,079
at the time. So if you're in brid and there's

1730
01:54:45,520 --> 01:54:48,199
a pulse of mackerel comes through, or a pulse of

1731
01:54:48,880 --> 01:54:51,600
pilchers come through or something like that, and so or

1732
01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:53,960
sardines or bait fish or something, you can't go for

1733
01:54:54,119 --> 01:54:58,319
them because you don't have the quota or the ability

1734
01:54:58,399 --> 01:55:00,680
to use a particular set of gear. I think one

1735
01:55:00,760 --> 01:55:04,840
of the you had Bryce Stewart talking about octopus recently,

1736
01:55:05,680 --> 01:55:07,720
and I listened to somebody talking about that from the

1737
01:55:08,319 --> 01:55:12,520
Devin Ifka and she was she gave a really excellent presentation.

1738
01:55:13,039 --> 01:55:15,800
And then so that was a case where there was

1739
01:55:16,159 --> 01:55:19,119
there was a bloom of octopus and the fishermen could

1740
01:55:19,199 --> 01:55:21,199
go for it because it was there some of them,

1741
01:55:21,239 --> 01:55:22,920
not all of them could, but some of them could,

1742
01:55:23,319 --> 01:55:25,039
and that they were able to benefit from that. If

1743
01:55:25,079 --> 01:55:28,479
that had been bass, right, they wouldn't been able to

1744
01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:31,199
go for it, not because the bass weren't there, but

1745
01:55:31,319 --> 01:55:34,039
because they didn't have the right quota, and the management

1746
01:55:34,039 --> 01:55:36,920
would not have been able to move quickly enough to say, right,

1747
01:55:37,000 --> 01:55:40,680
there's a there's this abundance of a new species on

1748
01:55:40,760 --> 01:55:44,279
the ground here. Let's let's let fishermen go and fish

1749
01:55:44,359 --> 01:55:46,239
for it. So one of the things we need to

1750
01:55:46,279 --> 01:55:49,960
do is to loosen up management somehow find ways to

1751
01:55:50,119 --> 01:55:54,279
let fishermen fish for what's what's there, rather than sort

1752
01:55:54,279 --> 01:55:56,760
of forcing them to always fish for for one or

1753
01:55:56,800 --> 01:55:59,279
two species because that's what they've got the quota for,

1754
01:55:59,479 --> 01:56:01,760
or that's what got the gear for you know, and

1755
01:56:02,680 --> 01:56:08,119
hopefully technology in management will allow for fisheries managers to

1756
01:56:08,439 --> 01:56:12,359
improve the speed at which they can respond to those

1757
01:56:12,520 --> 01:56:15,520
changes that are coming. It's all links together, it's all

1758
01:56:15,600 --> 01:56:16,119
tied together.

1759
01:56:16,840 --> 01:56:20,840
Speaker 1: I would say, yes, I agree with you, Magnus. But

1760
01:56:21,640 --> 01:56:24,960
I thought, what a solution, what a great mind. And

1761
01:56:25,159 --> 01:56:29,000
you know the guy very well, and he it will

1762
01:56:30,159 --> 01:56:35,880
Michael Kaiser and talking to him one day in a

1763
01:56:36,039 --> 01:56:39,000
podcast sorry, and as he says, and I thought, gee,

1764
01:56:39,119 --> 01:56:44,880
AD's really clever. He says, the industry needs to take

1765
01:56:45,000 --> 01:56:52,159
control of the policing of the you know, quote a management,

1766
01:56:53,199 --> 01:56:58,399
the whole thing. The industry needs to take control. And

1767
01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:01,720
I thought, you know, how true is that? How far

1768
01:57:01,880 --> 01:57:02,520
sighted is it?

1769
01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:04,119
Speaker 2: I agree?

1770
01:57:05,520 --> 01:57:07,920
Speaker 3: And they need to be doing more research themselves, need

1771
01:57:07,960 --> 01:57:09,880
to be doing more of the science. Because I think

1772
01:57:09,920 --> 01:57:13,760
they're doing that, they become more responsible if they understand

1773
01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:17,279
what's going on on their own grounds with their own species.

1774
01:57:18,840 --> 01:57:22,880
That makes them more aware that they are responsible for

1775
01:57:23,039 --> 01:57:24,760
managing their own their own grounds.

1776
01:57:24,800 --> 01:57:26,560
Speaker 1: You know, yeah.

1777
01:57:27,960 --> 01:57:28,600
Speaker 2: It could.

1778
01:57:29,159 --> 01:57:33,560
Speaker 1: Would you say, could any practical change make a difference

1779
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:34,279
to fishermen?

1780
01:57:35,119 --> 01:57:36,880
Speaker 2: Just now? Goodness?

1781
01:57:36,920 --> 01:57:41,760
Speaker 1: There anything that has advanced enough.

1782
01:57:44,079 --> 01:57:45,760
Speaker 2: I mean, I think a lot of the things that

1783
01:57:45,840 --> 01:57:50,800
we've discussed today can all make a practical change to fishermen.

1784
01:57:51,439 --> 01:57:54,319
And my real advice to to fishermen would be to

1785
01:57:54,399 --> 01:57:59,560
be proactive about doing things, Investigate their options, think about

1786
01:57:59,600 --> 01:58:03,560
what they can do, investor money wisely in things that

1787
01:58:03,720 --> 01:58:06,920
save them fuel or save them other costs. And to

1788
01:58:07,039 --> 01:58:10,279
make sure that they don't just say fuel price is

1789
01:58:10,359 --> 01:58:13,960
high and then bury their head in the sand, you know,

1790
01:58:14,199 --> 01:58:18,560
try really hard to challenge see where they can they

1791
01:58:18,640 --> 01:58:24,680
can improve, try and really push for that. Like Magnus

1792
01:58:24,840 --> 01:58:28,199
was saying, you know, when there's other species coming through,

1793
01:58:29,039 --> 01:58:31,159
if they had the ability to go and fish for them.

1794
01:58:32,920 --> 01:58:38,359
Knowing fishermen, they would be very quickly at that. They'd

1795
01:58:38,399 --> 01:58:42,319
come up with really innovative ways to swap their boats

1796
01:58:42,359 --> 01:58:46,479
around to suit that. I'd really challenge fishermen to try

1797
01:58:46,520 --> 01:58:49,920
and take that same mentality that they'd have for catching

1798
01:58:50,079 --> 01:58:53,520
more fish to saving more fuel.

1799
01:58:55,399 --> 01:58:58,640
Speaker 1: You could tell me if you think this is it's

1800
01:58:58,720 --> 01:59:02,760
just thinking back as you're you've been some of the

1801
01:59:02,840 --> 01:59:07,000
things you've been saying. I can remember a number of

1802
01:59:07,119 --> 01:59:10,800
years back, probably seventies and eighties, and that we used

1803
01:59:10,800 --> 01:59:14,239
to get a heap of boats come in and the scrabster.

1804
01:59:14,399 --> 01:59:16,840
I would be on board them down talking to them.

1805
01:59:17,640 --> 01:59:21,760
They were in the scribs there to wait for the

1806
01:59:21,920 --> 01:59:25,520
tide before they would go through the birth. Just say

1807
01:59:25,520 --> 01:59:29,600
there were east coast, mostly east coast boats fishing west

1808
01:59:30,119 --> 01:59:33,039
and they would be going through the firth either going

1809
01:59:33,119 --> 01:59:37,640
home or to get a refit, a paint that or that,

1810
01:59:37,800 --> 01:59:39,720
and they would commit to scrabs her for a few

1811
01:59:39,800 --> 01:59:42,359
hours wait for the As I said, wait for the tide.

1812
01:59:43,520 --> 01:59:47,039
I never see that now now. I always put it

1813
01:59:47,159 --> 01:59:51,159
down to there's less boats now, but they're much more powerful.

1814
01:59:51,399 --> 01:59:55,840
I'm talking maybe one hundred horsepower engines, one hundred and

1815
01:59:56,039 --> 01:59:59,439
fifty gardeners, that sort of thing. And I just thought

1816
01:59:59,479 --> 02:00:02,800
it was all was down to size of the engine,

1817
02:00:02,840 --> 02:00:08,239
and there's much They're much much more powerful now. And

1818
02:00:08,840 --> 02:00:15,520
so do you feel would adapt into things like that?

1819
02:00:15,680 --> 02:00:18,720
Do you think they would be saving fuel doing that

1820
02:00:19,239 --> 02:00:19,600
what they.

1821
02:00:19,640 --> 02:00:22,439
Speaker 2: Used to do? Yeah, hugely. I mean coming through the

1822
02:00:22,479 --> 02:00:26,640
Penland Firth is something like ten to twelve knots at

1823
02:00:26,720 --> 02:00:29,680
full flow. If you're going against that in a lot

1824
02:00:29,720 --> 02:00:32,880
of boats, you're at full revs and not really making

1825
02:00:32,960 --> 02:00:35,880
any progress. But if you're going the other way, you

1826
02:00:36,039 --> 02:00:41,560
can be almost knocked entirely off and going faster than

1827
02:00:41,600 --> 02:00:47,479
you've ever gone over the ground. So you know that

1828
02:00:50,199 --> 02:00:55,000
decision makes sense from a fuel perspective. The big question

1829
02:00:55,159 --> 02:00:58,079
is does it make sense from a crew perspective? And

1830
02:00:58,199 --> 02:01:02,399
at what point do those make it a bad idea

1831
02:01:03,520 --> 02:01:06,479
if you're if you're having to steam down and let

1832
02:01:06,600 --> 02:01:10,800
guys off the boat when you get back to Fraser Brudd,

1833
02:01:10,880 --> 02:01:15,560
just getting there four hours earlier save you a lot

1834
02:01:15,680 --> 02:01:19,119
in terms of your either cost for crew or also

1835
02:01:21,520 --> 02:01:28,279
gain you goodwill from the crew versus them hanging about

1836
02:01:28,439 --> 02:01:31,800
and scrabster waiting for the tide. You know, there's a

1837
02:01:31,880 --> 02:01:38,960
real balance in all of that between cost and maybe

1838
02:01:39,079 --> 02:01:42,159
non monetary cost if you understand.

1839
02:01:44,439 --> 02:01:46,960
Speaker 1: This is a pretty obvious point I was going to ask.

1840
02:01:47,960 --> 02:01:51,199
I think Magnus already mentioned that they came up with it.

1841
02:01:51,319 --> 02:01:53,960
As a fuel price stays the same or even goes higher.

1842
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:58,079
What does the UK fishing fleet look like in ten

1843
02:01:58,199 --> 02:01:58,760
years time?

1844
02:02:02,520 --> 02:02:06,199
Speaker 2: I don't know, is the honest answer. I think it's

1845
02:02:06,279 --> 02:02:16,920
magnet probably smaller. But as I mentioned earlier, the fishermen

1846
02:02:17,039 --> 02:02:20,119
are some of the smartest guys I've ever seen. They

1847
02:02:20,199 --> 02:02:26,640
know their boats, they're resilient, they're resourceful, and they're very

1848
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:30,239
good at sort of ingenuity, and I believe that lots

1849
02:02:30,279 --> 02:02:33,000
of them will find a solution to the problem that

1850
02:02:33,039 --> 02:02:38,399
will allow them to continue working as fishermen. I don't

1851
02:02:38,439 --> 02:02:43,680
think any of them do this as a job like

1852
02:02:43,800 --> 02:02:47,960
some other people. It's a career, it's a lifestyle. Nobody

1853
02:02:48,159 --> 02:02:53,640
leaves being a fisherman easily. I'd listen to your podcast

1854
02:02:54,319 --> 02:02:57,119
the other day, I'm trying to remember the name of

1855
02:02:57,159 --> 02:03:02,039
the skipper who'd left to have it is mt business

1856
02:03:02,720 --> 02:03:08,880
and garage for them. Yeah, And that's why I see

1857
02:03:08,920 --> 02:03:12,640
from fishermen all the time that they are fishermen, even

1858
02:03:12,720 --> 02:03:15,680
if they've had to leave the boat to go and

1859
02:03:15,800 --> 02:03:19,640
do a different job. That's that's still how they characterize themselves.

1860
02:03:20,319 --> 02:03:23,880
And I'm sure they'll find a way back if they've

1861
02:03:23,920 --> 02:03:26,840
got to leave, or they'll find a way to make

1862
02:03:26,920 --> 02:03:27,279
it through.

1863
02:03:29,279 --> 02:03:31,880
Speaker 3: Fishermen told me, I mean, do you know how to

1864
02:03:31,960 --> 02:03:35,640
make a million pounds in fishing gym? You start with

1865
02:03:35,720 --> 02:03:44,119
two million. Yeah, there's a lot of I think there's

1866
02:03:44,119 --> 02:03:46,399
a lot of guys do because it's a passion, it's

1867
02:03:46,399 --> 02:03:49,199
a way of life. But I think there are quite

1868
02:03:49,199 --> 02:03:52,239
a few at the moment, certainly in Briddlington to speak

1869
02:03:52,239 --> 02:03:55,199
to people, and the key there that they'd happily if

1870
02:03:55,199 --> 02:03:59,520
there's a decommissioning scheme tomorrow they take it. Yeah, they'd

1871
02:03:59,600 --> 02:04:03,079
go because it's it's just so hard. It was hard

1872
02:04:03,159 --> 02:04:06,560
before this fuel spikes, and I worry about if this

1873
02:04:06,760 --> 02:04:08,840
lasts too long, about what they're going to do.

1874
02:04:09,840 --> 02:04:12,479
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's that's maybe touching on something

1875
02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:15,199
you said earlier as well, is that you know, the

1876
02:04:15,279 --> 02:04:19,199
age of skippers is is always increasing and a lot

1877
02:04:19,239 --> 02:04:24,319
of them are at that retirement age. But if fuel

1878
02:04:24,359 --> 02:04:28,479
price is high and fishing isn't attractive, they won't get

1879
02:04:28,720 --> 02:04:31,119
money back out of their boat when they try to sell,

1880
02:04:33,159 --> 02:04:37,159
and that's potentially a really difficult situation for a lot

1881
02:04:37,199 --> 02:04:41,079
of people. Unfortunately, I don't really have a solution, but

1882
02:04:41,239 --> 02:04:43,880
if there was some sort of decommissioning scheme, I could see.

1883
02:04:44,720 --> 02:04:46,520
I could see that being attractive for a lot of

1884
02:04:46,560 --> 02:04:50,159
people before they're they're left with a stranded asset and

1885
02:04:53,039 --> 02:04:54,359
struggling to make ends meet.

1886
02:04:56,640 --> 02:05:02,479
Speaker 1: Indeed, indeed, tell me we're and our listeners follow you

1887
02:05:02,680 --> 02:05:05,760
online of your social media presence.

1888
02:05:07,600 --> 02:05:10,880
Speaker 2: I personally don't have much of a social media presence

1889
02:05:10,920 --> 02:05:14,359
at all. I've got got a LinkedIn page, but I'm

1890
02:05:14,399 --> 02:05:18,880
not very active on it. The company, however, has both

1891
02:05:18,920 --> 02:05:21,960
a LinkedIn and Facebook, and we put stuff up there

1892
02:05:22,079 --> 02:05:27,199
quite quite regularly. And if you want to speak to

1893
02:05:27,279 --> 02:05:32,319
me about anything that's been in the podcast today, I'm

1894
02:05:32,359 --> 02:05:36,039
really happy for people to message me on LinkedIn or

1895
02:05:36,920 --> 02:05:39,279
or message the company and that will come through to

1896
02:05:39,399 --> 02:05:39,760
me as.

1897
02:05:39,680 --> 02:05:42,880
Speaker 1: Well, excellently same here.

1898
02:05:43,039 --> 02:05:46,840
Speaker 3: So I'm on LinkedIn and blue Sky, so I can

1899
02:05:46,880 --> 02:05:50,960
be found there or through the University of Hall. Very happy, too,

1900
02:05:52,039 --> 02:05:56,520
very happy to I steal ideas from fishermen and so

1901
02:05:57,199 --> 02:06:00,760
as I'm a bit of a magpie for wiz words

1902
02:06:00,800 --> 02:06:03,119
of wisdom from skippers that I can then turn into

1903
02:06:04,800 --> 02:06:07,920
research or ideas or to try and help the industry.

1904
02:06:08,119 --> 02:06:12,000
Obviously excellent. I think we may be hold up.

1905
02:06:12,800 --> 02:06:17,920
Speaker 1: It's clear from this conversation that the challenge in facing

1906
02:06:18,239 --> 02:06:24,399
the fishing industry aren't just technical. They're economical, structural and

1907
02:06:24,720 --> 02:06:29,000
very real for the people living it every day. But

1908
02:06:29,520 --> 02:06:34,880
if one thing stands out, it's this, no matter what

1909
02:06:35,199 --> 02:06:40,039
changes are talked about, it all still comes out of

1910
02:06:40,119 --> 02:06:43,680
the cod end. And maybe we should all think a

1911
02:06:43,800 --> 02:06:48,239
bit harder about that what the true price of fish

1912
02:06:48,359 --> 02:06:52,960
really is. Magnuson Duncan, thank you for your time.

1913
02:06:53,399 --> 02:06:56,840
Speaker 3: Thank you, Thanks Jim, it's been a pleasure as always,

1914
02:06:57,720 --> 02:06:58,279
it's been more.

1915
02:06:58,239 --> 02:06:59,680
Speaker 2: Way to talk to you about Thanks.

1916
02:07:00,520 --> 02:07:01,479
Speaker 1: Thank you very Mutch