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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the nonprofits. And today we're going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about a very serious case in France. So to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about it, we're going to go to Sandy. Sandy, what

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<v Speaker 1>do you have for us?

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<v Speaker 2>Hey? Yeah. So on September second of this year, a

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<v Speaker 2>historic trial started in Avignon, in France, close to where

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up. A man called Dominique Petticou is accused

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<v Speaker 2>of having sedated his wife in order to have her

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<v Speaker 2>raped by other men while he was filming and taking pictures.

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<v Speaker 2>And this happened for over ten years. Those men were

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<v Speaker 2>recruited on an adult meeting forum where the situation was

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<v Speaker 2>clearly advertised. A total of seventy two men positively responded

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<v Speaker 2>to the invitation. Fifty of them are facing trial with

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<v Speaker 2>him right now. Sentencing happens on the twentieth of December,

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<v Speaker 2>so in a week more or less. That pretty cool.

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<v Speaker 2>The victim refused to have a closed trial, and that

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<v Speaker 2>was a very very brave decision, and with that decision

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<v Speaker 2>she became an icon during the course of the trial,

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<v Speaker 2>being applauded by women every single day in the courthouse.

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<v Speaker 2>This story is from Frands twenty four by Newswires on

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<v Speaker 2>the twenty fifth of November twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 1>Four, exceeding now setting what impact does the prevalence of

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<v Speaker 1>problematic childhoods have one understanding the motivation behind crimes and

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<v Speaker 1>is this an explanation?

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, we need to make sure we keep the

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<v Speaker 2>distinction between explanation and justification, but it can be in

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<v Speaker 2>some cases. However, there was a very very and there

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<v Speaker 2>is still a big debate on this in the French

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<v Speaker 2>media right now, because the question is those men are

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<v Speaker 2>from very diverse backgrounds, very different ages from twenty six

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<v Speaker 2>to seventy two, something like that. There are some there's

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<v Speaker 2>a fireman, there's a soldier or former soldier, there are

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<v Speaker 2>some financial people, and so there's a lot of different profiles,

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<v Speaker 2>and so some people tend to say that they are

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<v Speaker 2>representative of the entire French society. But on the other hand,

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<v Speaker 2>other people say yes, but no, because not all people

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<v Speaker 2>would act like this in this situation, and so what

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<v Speaker 2>happened during the childhood of some of them, not all

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<v Speaker 2>of them, but a small portion of them can be

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<v Speaker 2>an explanation to this kind of behavior. We know that

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<v Speaker 2>from the most recent neuro studies that nature and nurture

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<v Speaker 2>both have to play a role in becoming those kinds

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<v Speaker 2>of people, you have to have some specific DNA markers

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<v Speaker 2>or some epigenetic sequences, but you also need to have

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<v Speaker 2>some triggers in your childhood most of the time. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's it's not as simple as some people would like

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<v Speaker 2>us to believe. But yeah, this trial is very, very

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<v Speaker 2>very important in France because it starts to change the

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<v Speaker 2>perception of what a rapist is because like two thirds

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<v Speaker 2>of the accused refused to agree that they actually raped Pelico.

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<v Speaker 2>In their difference, they are saying different things like dominic

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<v Speaker 2>Pelico forced me, or I was scared of him, or

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't rape her because I wasn't violent with her somehow,

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<v Speaker 2>or because I thought because I had the husband's permission,

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<v Speaker 2>So it's not a rape. And so what this trial

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<v Speaker 2>will will bring, in my opinion, is the shift in

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<v Speaker 2>perspective at least that a rapist is not just a

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<v Speaker 2>guy who attacks women in the dark in a dark

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<v Speaker 2>early in the streets outside. Nine out of ten rapes

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<v Speaker 2>are from someone you know, and that's something hopefully the

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<v Speaker 2>trial will will change in the in people's minds.

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<v Speaker 1>A jay I kind of touched on it earlier. What

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<v Speaker 1>do you think there's a role between childhood trauma and

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<v Speaker 1>harmful behaviors? And how do you think society, So, how

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<v Speaker 1>do you think society can differentiate between these trauma responses

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<v Speaker 1>and manipulative behavior.

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<v Speaker 3>No, I wasn't really even familiar with this case at

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<v Speaker 3>all before the auticle came up, so I had to

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<v Speaker 3>go and do a lot of the In have to say,

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<v Speaker 3>I was shocked at the extent as since they mentioned

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<v Speaker 3>like how many people were involved and the variety of

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<v Speaker 3>people that were involved. And one thing that takes out

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<v Speaker 3>to me is there's this saying that I've heard before

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<v Speaker 3>that goes something like traumatized people traumatize people, right, And

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<v Speaker 3>I think that that is the key here. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>doubt that Perlicott himself experienced quite a bit of trauma

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<v Speaker 3>as a child. And there's a theory that says that

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<v Speaker 3>in psychology that points to people who are abused as

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<v Speaker 3>children tending to abuse others because they want to make

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<v Speaker 3>the abuse that they experience to feel normal, So they

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<v Speaker 3>do it in order for it to be you know, normalized,

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<v Speaker 3>so that their mind normalized is doing these things. But

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<v Speaker 3>in the case of manipulation versus trauma response, I think

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<v Speaker 3>it's really really hard to differentiate them because often manipulation

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<v Speaker 3>is a trauma response in itself. And I think what

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<v Speaker 3>we can learn from this story, well, one of the

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<v Speaker 3>things we can learn, because there's a whole lot of

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<v Speaker 3>things to be taken from here. One of the things

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<v Speaker 3>that I came out with was that statistically, men are

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<v Speaker 3>much less likely to seek mental health help. And you

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<v Speaker 3>can tell that that holds true in this case because again,

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<v Speaker 3>as Cindy pointed out, these were over fifty men, and

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<v Speaker 3>there were aged between twenty six and seventy four, and

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<v Speaker 3>this happened over the course of over ten years. Among

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<v Speaker 3>some of the images that the detectives were able to

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<v Speaker 3>find in all of the devices that Policot had, they

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<v Speaker 3>determined that she was waited at least two hundred times

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<v Speaker 3>based only on those photos. Okay only there's no telling

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<v Speaker 3>if there were more, and like before he started taking

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<v Speaker 3>those images and howful those were by her own husband,

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<v Speaker 3>and in the other instances some of the men came

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<v Speaker 3>more than one time. Issues the horrifying story and what

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<v Speaker 3>we need to normalize here is mental care for everyone

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<v Speaker 3>for any reason, like whether you're man or a woman,

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<v Speaker 3>Like we need to stop making it taboo, like you're

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<v Speaker 3>not going to be less of a man if you

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<v Speaker 3>seek therapy.

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<v Speaker 1>AJ was talking about the sheer extremity of horror of

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<v Speaker 1>this case. What impact do you think that we can

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<v Speaker 1>hope this has on public understanding of how far this

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<v Speaker 1>abuse can go within our societal norms. Do you think

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<v Speaker 1>this will have an impact with her making this choice

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure this is public and not doing this

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<v Speaker 1>in a closed form.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm sure it'll have impact of some form. Hopefully it'll

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<v Speaker 4>be a positive one when something like this happens. There's

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<v Speaker 4>actually jokes about this in war movies and such, where

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<v Speaker 4>if I go out and kill somebody, I'm a murderer.

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<v Speaker 4>If I kill two people, I'm now a repeat murderer.

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<v Speaker 4>If I kill fourteen people, I'm a serial killer. And

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<v Speaker 4>if I kill ten thousand people, I am a war veteran.

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<v Speaker 4>That's just a statistic. So there just comes a point

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<v Speaker 4>where something is so grand, so big beyond it being personal,

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<v Speaker 4>that people can, haha, compartmentalize it a little bit and

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<v Speaker 4>be like, oh, that wasn't rape, that was clearly something else.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm not saying that's what they're going to do, because

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<v Speaker 4>ideally that doesn't happen. I just fear that this rape

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<v Speaker 4>case is so insane, like truly absurd, that the severity

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<v Speaker 4>of it doesn't color justice better rape laws, because it'd

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<v Speaker 4>be very easy for people to look at and go, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 4>that's just a one time scenario, and maybe it is

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<v Speaker 4>like that just seems really unlikely to happen again. Also,

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<v Speaker 4>that doesn't matter. One of the things though, that Cindy said,

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<v Speaker 4>because I actually have a question that I think that

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<v Speaker 4>is pretty good in America, at least from the people

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<v Speaker 4>that I'm around, is since I was brought up from

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<v Speaker 4>my teens to now, the idea of what is consent

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<v Speaker 4>and also it's corollary what is rape has kind of changed,

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<v Speaker 4>and it has also been more specified, because when I

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<v Speaker 4>was a kid, it was just like if they don't

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<v Speaker 4>say no, and then later on it would just be

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<v Speaker 4>like no, not no doesn't mean yes, and now later

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<v Speaker 4>it's yes and only if yes, if not yes does

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<v Speaker 4>not mean yes. So in America, to me, it seems

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<v Speaker 4>like we've done a pretty good job at trying to specify.

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<v Speaker 4>Enthusiastic consent is the only thing that makes it not rape,

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<v Speaker 4>and if you don't have that, even like we have

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<v Speaker 4>mayor rape as a clause, something like that exists in France.

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<v Speaker 4>Are these concepts strange or is that just also true?

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<v Speaker 2>No, it's it's a good question. So the marital rape

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<v Speaker 2>has been entring into law about I think it was

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<v Speaker 2>fourteen years ago something like that. The definition of consent

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<v Speaker 2>of not consent, but of rape has been also specified

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<v Speaker 2>in cases of surprise, stupor and things like that. But

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<v Speaker 2>the word consent is not itself in the law. And

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<v Speaker 2>there is actually a huge debate right now on the

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<v Speaker 2>question whether the word consent needs to be in the law.

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<v Speaker 2>Some even some feminists, say it shouldn't be, and some

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<v Speaker 2>say it should be. So there's there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>variation in this in this topic. But the most important

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<v Speaker 2>thing is that what we saw here is not just rape,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's that many men see sex as a form

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<v Speaker 2>of control. And Domini Pelico said it very well when

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<v Speaker 2>he was questioned on why he did all this, because

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<v Speaker 2>they've been married for fifty years and he started doing

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<v Speaker 2>this only ten years ago, so they were happily married

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<v Speaker 2>for decades before he started doing this, and so the

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<v Speaker 2>question was why did you start doing this? And he said,

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted to submit and submitted women, and so there

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<v Speaker 2>is this idea of control a woman. And in the

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<v Speaker 2>questions on the other fifty people, this idea came up

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<v Speaker 2>quite often as well, is the idea that because lawyers

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<v Speaker 2>were asking, but when you came here and you saw

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<v Speaker 2>this woman was almost dead, how could you want to

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<v Speaker 2>have sex with her? And many of them said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>it was about doing her whatever we wanted. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think this is another thing that's going to come out

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<v Speaker 2>from this is the understanding too many people that sex

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<v Speaker 2>has to be between two people, two minds. It's not

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<v Speaker 2>just one man and a body. It's two minds to

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<v Speaker 2>two active people. It's beyond consent, beyond all any definition

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<v Speaker 2>of rape. It's the concept of sex itself that we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about here, in my opinion. And the last question is,

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<v Speaker 2>while no one says all men are are rapists, and

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<v Speaker 2>on the contrary, a lot of people try to profess

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<v Speaker 2>the discussion with no, that's definition what we're saying, there's

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<v Speaker 2>still the question of how come this topic was on

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<v Speaker 2>this website, this forum for ten years and nobody said anything.

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<v Speaker 2>How come men came here and did that and nobody

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<v Speaker 2>thought about talking to the police about what was happening

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<v Speaker 2>for ten years, because in the end, Giselle was very

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<v Speaker 2>lucky because Dominique was arrested because he was filming in

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<v Speaker 2>a grocery store under the skirt of a woman, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's how he got cut. Because without this, all this

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<v Speaker 2>would be still happening right now. So this is the

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<v Speaker 2>questions we need to be asking, how come all this

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<v Speaker 2>happened for so long and nobody said anything, No man

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<v Speaker 2>said anything.

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<v Speaker 1>I know that here in the United States, obviously not

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<v Speaker 1>in France, we're seeing a push against even teaching consent

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<v Speaker 1>where we're not even there, politicians not even wanting to

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<v Speaker 1>have that conversation, which I find very unhealthy. But aj

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<v Speaker 1>in that mindset of getting away from consent encouraging submission,

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<v Speaker 1>because we see that with the whole trad wife and

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<v Speaker 1>the right wing push here in this country. What do

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<v Speaker 1>you think all these things almost a terrible perfect storm.

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<v Speaker 1>How can we shift societal views towards body autonomy because

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<v Speaker 1>it's not just the words of consent, but as I

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<v Speaker 1>mentioned earlier, it's about two minds, or maybe more than

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<v Speaker 1>two minds, but minds, not just a mind and a body.

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<v Speaker 1>In this context, how do we shift into that conversation.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, there was a quote by one of the

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<v Speaker 3>prosecutors that stood out to me and I thought if

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<v Speaker 3>they made a really good point. They say that the

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<v Speaker 3>trial is shaking up our society in our relationship with

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<v Speaker 3>each other, in the most intimate relationships between human beings.

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<v Speaker 3>French society has to understand their needs or emotions or desires,

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<v Speaker 3>and above all to take into account those of others.

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<v Speaker 3>What is at stake is to fundamentally change the relationship

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<v Speaker 3>between men and women. And hearing that quote, I hope

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<v Speaker 3>that if there is anything that we take away from

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<v Speaker 3>this story, let it be just that sentiment, the fact

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<v Speaker 3>that humans need to understand to value other human lives

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<v Speaker 3>as much as they value their own, because that's the

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<v Speaker 3>only way that we are ever going to be treating

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<v Speaker 3>others with full respect and allow them to have the

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<v Speaker 3>body autonomy that every single human being deserves, like everybody

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<v Speaker 3>deserves to be respected if they say no, And everybody

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<v Speaker 3>needs to know that when somebody doesn't have the ability

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<v Speaker 3>to say no because they're intoxicated or unconscious or whatever

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<v Speaker 3>it may be, that does not mean that it suddenly

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<v Speaker 3>becomes a yes. Just like well mentioned earlier because it's

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<v Speaker 3>you know, it's not a question that you can answer

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<v Speaker 3>for them. And you know we always discuss in cases

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<v Speaker 3>of as you and I have discussed before Infidel of

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<v Speaker 3>assisted that abortion or transgender rights. Body autonomy should be

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<v Speaker 3>one of the most fundamentally basic rights that any human

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<v Speaker 3>being is allowed to.

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<v Speaker 1>Have without a doubt. It's one of those things that

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<v Speaker 1>if you don't have the right to self determine you

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<v Speaker 1>whether that's consent, whether that's the right not to be.

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<v Speaker 1>All those rights stem from your own body autonomy. And

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<v Speaker 1>as you mentioned, Rob, I think you really nailed it

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<v Speaker 1>with what we consider consent has evolved over time and

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<v Speaker 1>will continue to evolve, and that's a good thing because

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<v Speaker 1>just because we treated as if it was good enough

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<v Speaker 1>in the past doesn't mean it is now. So it's

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<v Speaker 1>important to learn those things and subjects like this this,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, as difficult as they are to talk about.

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to thank all of you for dealing with

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<v Speaker 1>this and bringing some very important points to the forefront

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<v Speaker 1>because it say something we need to learn. And did

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<v Speaker 1>you have something you wanted to touch on sending.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I wanted to ask you guys a question. Let's

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<v Speaker 2>say that this exact story breaks out in the US today,

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<v Speaker 2>like two months after Rapists was voted as president. What

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<v Speaker 2>do you think the effect would be in the US.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that as a whole, the American public wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>even connect those on one side. The other side may

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<v Speaker 1>say something about it, but I think they would be

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<v Speaker 1>treated as two separate issues because one side doesn't want

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<v Speaker 1>to recognize the hypocrisy. And the truth is, I'm not

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<v Speaker 1>sure it would even irrelevant because it's still a horrible crime,

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<v Speaker 1>regardless of how hideous a particular choice someone else made

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<v Speaker 1>would be or not.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, honestly, I don't think anything will change how things

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<v Speaker 3>are done currently. I think it will just be another

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<v Speaker 3>media circus where people who just watch and shock and

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<v Speaker 3>then forget about it.

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<v Speaker 4>It would depend on the person, just like before with theatric,

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<v Speaker 4>theatrics and popularity. If it was a normal person, that

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<v Speaker 4>person would be destroyed. But if they're in politics, they

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<v Speaker 4>will have their allies.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, they may even get a cabinet post. And

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<v Speaker 1>once again, I wanted to thank all of you for

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<v Speaker 1>this conversation. Hopefully people's awareness of this type of thing

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<v Speaker 1>will help cause some serious thoughts and reconsiderations of consent,

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<v Speaker 1>body autonomy, all those important issues that really need to

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<v Speaker 1>be discussed on a regular basis and not neglected,