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True Murder with your 31 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:37.200 host journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 32 00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:49.000 Good evening. As an expert and speaker on mass shootings 33 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.480 and gun violence, Doctor Lynn Fenton knew it was impossible 34 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:55.239 to spot a killer. But when she met her new patient, 35 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:58.480 troubled grad student James Holmes, the hair on her arm 36 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:01.400 stood up. She feared he was going to kill, yet 37 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:03.799 she could find no way to thwart him. A few 38 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:07.159 months later, Holmes struck. He entered a packed movie theater 39 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.879 and opened fire, killing twelve people and wounding seventy. Some 40 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:15.759 were left brain damaged. Se were paralyzed for life. Immediately, 41 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:20.319 the familiar debates reignited, the crisis of mental health access, 42 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:24.719 more restrictive gun laws versus more good guys with guns, 43 00:02:25.319 --> 00:02:28.599 the morality of the death penalty, the legitimacy of the 44 00:02:28.639 --> 00:02:32.879 insanity defense. But what about the victims and bystanders whose 45 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:36.479 lives would never be the same. Doctor Fenton's memoir is 46 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:40.039 a voice for them. Her inability to thwart Holmes's mass 47 00:02:40.120 --> 00:02:45.120 murder made her escapegoat and elicited innumerable death threats. Her 48 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:48.520 chilling account provides an intimate look at her life before 49 00:02:49.000 --> 00:02:52.560 and after the Aurora massacure, as well as alarming insight 50 00:02:52.680 --> 00:02:56.759 into the sinister patient who called himself Fear Incarnate. With 51 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:01.199 unprecedented access to thousands of pages of documents, audio and 52 00:03:01.319 --> 00:03:07.199 video recordings, trial transcripts, medical records, and notes, Aurora attempts 53 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.800 to answer the question Holmes himself posed in his infamous 54 00:03:10.840 --> 00:03:15.719 notebook Why Why Why. The book that we're featuring this evening, 55 00:03:15.919 --> 00:03:19.840 is Aurora, the psychiatrist that treated the movie theater killer 56 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:24.199 tells her story with my special guests, Doctor Lynn Fenton. 57 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:26.800 Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for 58 00:03:26.879 --> 00:03:29.039 this interview, Doctor Lynn Fenton. 59 00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:29.919 Thank you for having me. 60 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:34.000 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this incredible book. 61 00:03:34.280 --> 00:03:37.240 Let's start off in twenty twelve, as you do in 62 00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:40.680 your book. Right away, tell us what your position was 63 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:44.879 at the faculty of the University of Colorado School of medicine. 64 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:49.360 So at the time that Holmes was a graduate student 65 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:54.240 in twenty twelve, I was the chief of the Student 66 00:03:54.280 --> 00:03:58.199 Mental Health Service and we treated all the graduate students 67 00:03:58.680 --> 00:04:01.919 in all of our medical grad programs. 68 00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:05.400 Tell us about some of the things that you did. 69 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:08.719 You talked about a yearly lecture that you did on 70 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:14.120 mass shootings. Which shooting did you particularly talk about and 71 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:17.680 why what did you try to and want to convey 72 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.000 to your students about the mass shooting. 73 00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:23.519 I taught lots of courses, and one of them was 74 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:28.480 course on student Mental Health, and that particular class was 75 00:04:28.519 --> 00:04:34.639 for our most senior fourth year psychiatry residency trainees, so 76 00:04:34.680 --> 00:04:38.600 they're just finishing their specialty training. And it so happened 77 00:04:38.759 --> 00:04:43.040 that that year twenty twelve, when I was giving the lecture, 78 00:04:43.360 --> 00:04:47.480 a number of the students in my class had been 79 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:51.279 in high school when the one of the early terrible 80 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:56.720 school shootings occurred at Columbine, which is south of Denver 81 00:04:57.000 --> 00:05:00.839 and Aurora. So I chose to first focus on that 82 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:06.439 for the lecture because it just was important personally and 83 00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:09.120 a lot of those students' lives. None of them had 84 00:05:09.160 --> 00:05:11.920 gone to Columbine at the time, but a lot of them, 85 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:14.160 had friends and knew some survivors. 86 00:05:14.360 --> 00:05:18.279 From that, you write that three out of four school shootings, 87 00:05:18.319 --> 00:05:22.000 the attacker made no direct threat against the teachers or students, 88 00:05:22.160 --> 00:05:25.360 but they still posed a threat. You also discussed with 89 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:29.639 your students Virginia Tech that killer. So what did you 90 00:05:29.879 --> 00:05:33.360 discuss with them regarding the Virginia Tech killer. 91 00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:37.519 So Virginia Tech was is still to this day one 92 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:41.920 of the most horrible shootings mass shootings period, let alone 93 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:46.600 school shootings. Over thirty people were killed. And one of 94 00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:50.399 the big lessons that we learned from Virginia Tech in 95 00:05:50.480 --> 00:05:56.319 retrospect was that members of one department, say the English department, 96 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:01.279 were reluctant to speak with members of department. I think 97 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:03.959 it was maybe the Math department, or to speak with 98 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:08.439 mental health providers or law enforcement for fear that they're 99 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:12.959 violating the student's privacy. And so in that case, even 100 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:17.199 though the shooter, Chow had been placed at one point 101 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:20.439 on a mental healthhold, he also was known to the 102 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:24.639 police and he was exhibiting all these alarming behaviors before 103 00:06:25.000 --> 00:06:28.040 the shooting. People were not talking to each other. They 104 00:06:28.040 --> 00:06:31.800 were kind of protecting his privacy. So after the Virginia 105 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:35.120 Tech shooting, it was clear that we cannot do that. 106 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:41.279 So if you are suspicious that a student is potentially 107 00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:46.199 dangerous to themselves or others, then you can contact other 108 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.319 people if you need to get more information or to 109 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:53.480 pass on your concerns about this student. And so that 110 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:56.879 was a huge thing that do not let worries about 111 00:06:57.000 --> 00:07:01.319 privacy about a student to prevent you from saying something 112 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:06.000 if you're worried, And then analogous to that, in mental healthcare, 113 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:10.240 we of course try Usually we really protect our patients' 114 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:14.399 privacy and will not be divulging things to anybody else. 115 00:07:14.519 --> 00:07:17.639 But in the case of possible danger, like if you 116 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:20.240 think a person is a danger to themselves or to 117 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:24.360 others in that emergency, then you can break that rule 118 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:27.839 and talk to other folks. So we spent a lot 119 00:07:27.879 --> 00:07:31.439 of time to sort of reminding the students about this 120 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:36.000 and how to proceed if you run into somebody that 121 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:39.560 you're fearful might commit one of these mass shootings. 122 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:44.360 You introduced James Egan Holmes, twenty four years old, doctoral 123 00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:48.399 student in neurosciences and one of a handful you write 124 00:07:48.439 --> 00:07:52.839 of gifted students accepted into the college. The college is 125 00:07:52.920 --> 00:07:57.439 prestigious neuroscience program. But you said that Holmes had some 126 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:01.439 problems publicly speaking, what we're some of those problems. 127 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:06.000 He was a very anxious, nervous guy. And in fact, 128 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:08.879 this is why he first came to Student Mental Health 129 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:14.160 was he had so much anxiety during his lab presentations 130 00:08:14.160 --> 00:08:17.120 and what was just made all these awkward jokes that 131 00:08:17.519 --> 00:08:21.199 one of his supervisors suggested that he come into Student 132 00:08:21.199 --> 00:08:23.279 Mental Health to see if we could help him. And 133 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:26.360 so that's why he came of his own accord to 134 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:28.639 Student Mental Health and came to see me. 135 00:08:29.079 --> 00:08:32.240 In fact, you got a voicemail from a colleague social worker, 136 00:08:32.360 --> 00:08:35.960 Margaret Roath, and she said that she knew you had 137 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:38.440 a long waiting list, but you should make an exemption 138 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:41.960 for this guy. You quote her saying he's a bit unusual, 139 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:44.559 might be best to keep him in the system, and 140 00:08:44.639 --> 00:08:47.840 she wanted him monitored closely and said that he was 141 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:52.200 a most anxious person she had ever dealt with, period, 142 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:55.039 and that he had just broken up with his girlfriend. 143 00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:57.519 And you knew who that woman was because you had 144 00:08:57.639 --> 00:09:02.799 referred her to another counselor. You agreed and tell us 145 00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:06.080 about this first appointment with James Holmes. 146 00:09:07.240 --> 00:09:12.639 Well, I was already expecting somebody very nervous. Margaret, who 147 00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:15.600 was the social worker on our team and saw lots 148 00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:19.639 of these students, was real veteran, and so when she 149 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:23.159 said this is the most anxious guy I've seen, you know, 150 00:09:23.320 --> 00:09:26.279 my ears perked up. And when she was she said, 151 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.759 you know, he'd be mentioning he has thoughts of killing 152 00:09:28.879 --> 00:09:32.679 and killing others not but she said, I don't think 153 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:37.279 he's actually dangerous, but he's really very odd. So let's 154 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:40.759 could you please see him yourself. Usually when we have 155 00:09:40.799 --> 00:09:43.679 a long waiting list somebody needs to get in right away, 156 00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.879 we'd refer them to a psychiatrist in the community. That 157 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:51.000 Margaret thought, he's a little odd, let's let's keep a 158 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:53.320 closer eye on him. So that's how I came to 159 00:09:53.360 --> 00:09:56.000 see him. So I contacted him right away. A few 160 00:09:56.080 --> 00:09:59.159 days later, we had our first appointment, and boy, so 161 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:05.080 he was absolutely very sort of anxious, nervous, unusual eye contact, 162 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.960 kind of like staring at different points around the room 163 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:11.080 and inter mentally staring at me. And he also even 164 00:10:11.159 --> 00:10:15.399 just moved kind of awkward and nervously, almost robotically, kind 165 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:17.840 of shooting up from the chair in the waiting room. 166 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:21.559 Kind of marching back into the treatment area. But the 167 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:25.600 most difficult thing really was that was really hard to 168 00:10:25.639 --> 00:10:28.720 get him to say more than about a two word answer, 169 00:10:29.039 --> 00:10:31.879 sort of like if you're talking to, say, a teenager 170 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:34.279 who doesn't want to talk to you, and you say, oh, 171 00:10:34.360 --> 00:10:37.879 I was cool, fine, you know, just these very brief, 172 00:10:38.120 --> 00:10:43.120 uninformative answers. And so I spent the most of the 173 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:46.799 next six sessions, over several months, trying to figure out 174 00:10:47.000 --> 00:10:50.960 what was behind this thought of killing people? Did he 175 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:55.240 actually have any intent of hurting someone or that capacity 176 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:58.600 to do that? And he was really hard to work with. 177 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:02.480 Now you just skipped a little bit ahead to what 178 00:11:02.600 --> 00:11:07.000 he said about hurting people killing people, Yeah, you knew. 179 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:09.840 And yet you write in the book that he had 180 00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.679 first seen a therapist when he was eight years old, 181 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.879 when he punched his sister in the face. He had 182 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:19.320 only gone to three sessions. They had diagnosed him with 183 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:24.279 oppositional defiance disorder, but that was about it. It seemed that 184 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:26.960 he would be okay. He was okay. So no one 185 00:11:26.960 --> 00:11:29.519 had seen him before, He had no psychiatric record before 186 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:31.600 you saw him, Is that correct, right? 187 00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:34.720 You know, kind of nerdy, anxious kid. Yeah, had that 188 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:36.000 sort of brief issue. 189 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:39.200 And then once when they moved to a larger city 190 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:41.720 in California, they had a little family counseling. But I 191 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:44.919 mean he didn't have a history problems, he didn't have 192 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:50.279 any legal record, and yeah, no prior psychiatric treatment. 193 00:11:50.559 --> 00:11:54.840 It's interesting you talk about you write about his background 194 00:11:55.000 --> 00:11:59.759 is his parents, his father and his grandfather, and that 195 00:12:00.240 --> 00:12:03.240 there had been they had been involved with something called 196 00:12:03.600 --> 00:12:07.440 DARPA and so this was involved with a peak soldier 197 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:14.799 performance experiments and study. Interestingly, James Holmes comes into treatment, 198 00:12:15.399 --> 00:12:17.360 but how do you get around You said, it was 199 00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:21.480 very hard to extract anything from him, especially in that 200 00:12:21.639 --> 00:12:25.720 first interview and that first session. How did you come 201 00:12:25.840 --> 00:12:32.000 upon the subject of him wanting or fantasizing about killing people? 202 00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:35.799 Yeah, so it's very interesting. So he first saw my 203 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:39.279 colleague Margaret and said, you know, I'm here for anxiety, 204 00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:41.759 and she asked him about it. But at some point 205 00:12:41.799 --> 00:12:44.759 when she was talking to him, he just said, almost 206 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:48.799 kind of out of the blue, offhandedly, I have thoughts 207 00:12:48.879 --> 00:12:52.519 of killing people, you know, just like what and try 208 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:54.759 to find out more. He wouldn't really say anything, and 209 00:12:54.840 --> 00:12:57.879 so it was very similar with me. You know, I 210 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:00.960 sort of said, so Margaret said, you have these thoughts, 211 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:04.639 tell me about that, and he just you know, wouldn't 212 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:10.480 or couldn't elaborate, just just thoughts of killing people one person, 213 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:14.000 interviewing everybody. But you can't do that. That's not a 214 00:13:14.039 --> 00:13:18.159 good solution. And so he's the one who brought it up. 215 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:21.720 And then you know, I kept pursuing it, but he 216 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.559 think in retrospect he didn't want me to learn more 217 00:13:25.679 --> 00:13:28.639 because there was a chance that maybe I'd lock him 218 00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:31.519 up or somehow prevent his plan. 219 00:13:31.879 --> 00:13:35.759 Now regarding that, what are the rules, what is your protocol? 220 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:40.000 What do you do when somebody in treatment says that 221 00:13:40.279 --> 00:13:43.200 they want to kill somebody or they're thinking of killing somebody, 222 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.960 or what are the rules? And yeah, tell us what 223 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:48.799 those rules are governing you. 224 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:55.000 Yeah, So if you get some specifics like maybe target 225 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:58.720 or a group of people or a place, or if 226 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:00.759 you get the sense that this this is something kind 227 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:03.879 of imminent that they're planning, it's not a statement like 228 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:07.200 someday I'm going to get that person, then you can 229 00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:10.679 place them on what's called a mental healthhold, and that 230 00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:13.919 is where we can so called lock people up on 231 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:18.039 a psychiatric unit for up to seventy two hours against 232 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:22.039 their will, and that gives us a chance to gather 233 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:25.480 more information, So mostly talking to the patient saying if 234 00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:32.600 they'll elaborate more, but also contacting law enforcement and family members, colleagues, 235 00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:35.399 things like that to try to find out more if 236 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:39.120 is there truly risk of this person doing something and 237 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:42.320 is there somebody place or a group of people we 238 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:46.159 need to warn so they could watch out. In Holmes's case, 239 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:50.600 he just never came close to meeting criteria for a 240 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:55.200 mental healthhold. He was just too vague. And even when 241 00:14:55.240 --> 00:14:58.559 you do put somebody on a mental healthfold for homicidal 242 00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:03.840 ideation to a large ex stent relying on what the 243 00:15:03.840 --> 00:15:07.200 patient tells you to and if somebody smart and determined 244 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:11.679 like Holmes was to carry out a mass murder, then 245 00:15:11.879 --> 00:15:15.440 they can just lie or not talk during the mental 246 00:15:15.480 --> 00:15:17.840 healthhold and at the end of the seventy two hours 247 00:15:17.840 --> 00:15:18.759 you have to let him go. 248 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:21.679 You when you first learned about James, you thought a 249 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.759 way through to be able to communicate with him was 250 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:29.600 to empathize with him about breakups. And he had just 251 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:31.840 broken up with his girlfriend, or at least she had 252 00:15:31.879 --> 00:15:35.279 redefined the relationship and he wasn't interested tell us what 253 00:15:35.360 --> 00:15:38.720 he had to say about the relationship and its effect 254 00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:39.200 on him. 255 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:42.399 Yeah, it was very strange. So one a sort of 256 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:46.840 a general statement he made about his relationships was, I 257 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:51.279 don't have relationships with people. They have relationships with me, 258 00:15:52.039 --> 00:15:54.000 sort of as if he's kind of going through his 259 00:15:54.039 --> 00:15:57.399 life he does not seek out any kind of interactions. 260 00:15:57.480 --> 00:16:00.279 You'd rather just be to himself. What you know, if 261 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:02.120 somebody comes in the picture and wants to be his 262 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:04.879 friend or date him, then you know, he might go 263 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:07.399 along with it. But he had Yeah, I had some 264 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:10.919 strange statements about when we were talking about the breakup. 265 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:14.440 Then he said, let's see, I don't see the I 266 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.879 don't see the glasses half full or half empty. I 267 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:21.159 see beyond the glass, and a couple of other sort 268 00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:26.840 of sophomore very strange statements, sort of as if he 269 00:16:26.919 --> 00:16:31.080 thought they were, you know, quite intellectual and penetrating or something. 270 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:35.320 But meanwhile, to an average person they just seem odd overall, though, 271 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:39.279 I mean, a breakup can be stressful enough that somebody 272 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:43.759 who's inclined to commit some kind of murder might be 273 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:48.639 a tipping point. So was really interested to find out, 274 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:51.360 you know how he was coping if he was okay. 275 00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:53.840 I mean, he did admit to you know, he's a 276 00:16:53.879 --> 00:16:56.720 little bit sad, but he wasn't torn up about it, 277 00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:59.279 and you know, they were still kind of friendly and 278 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:04.119 talking after so and he never expressed anything like I 279 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:07.880 hate all women, you know, because they won't date me, 280 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:11.119 or something like you'd be just each time I would 281 00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:14.160 pursue what I thought might be something that would give 282 00:17:14.200 --> 00:17:17.160 me more information, it would just kind of evaporate by 283 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:21.359 his saying nothing or what he said reassured me that 284 00:17:21.480 --> 00:17:23.200 he wasn't that upset. 285 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:29.680 This patient really concerned you and consume your thoughts, and 286 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:33.240 so you spoke with other psychiatrists that were your colleagues 287 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:36.480 and your friends, and you also at some point spoke 288 00:17:36.519 --> 00:17:39.599 to your supervisor, Steve. Tell us why you spoke to 289 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:43.599 Steve and what did you want potentially Steve to do. 290 00:17:43.880 --> 00:17:47.799 So A great thing about working in a university setting, 291 00:17:48.160 --> 00:17:51.160 as you have all these fabulous colleagues all around you, 292 00:17:51.279 --> 00:17:55.319 and we're used to collaborating, so you can discuss difficult 293 00:17:55.400 --> 00:18:00.480 cases with other folks and with psychiatry. We had the 294 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.720 culture at the University of Colorado to occasionally bring in 295 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:06.440 one of our colleagues and have sort of a joint 296 00:18:06.519 --> 00:18:09.160 visit and say, you know, hey, what do you think 297 00:18:09.200 --> 00:18:12.160 of this person? Can you does he connect better with you? 298 00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:14.599 Can you think of anything else I could do? So 299 00:18:14.759 --> 00:18:18.279 that's how worried I was about this guy. I had 300 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:21.759 discussed the case with my supervisor and we decided to 301 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:24.799 have joint visit, and you know, it did go a 302 00:18:24.839 --> 00:18:28.160 little better because I was wondering, maybe Holmes is extra 303 00:18:28.240 --> 00:18:30.960 awkward with women, maybe he'll do better with a man. 304 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:33.519 Steve was a little bit older, had kind of a 305 00:18:33.519 --> 00:18:36.119 different style than I do, and so I thought, you know, 306 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.599 maybe they would connect better. It actually did go a 307 00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:41.880 little bit better. Homes was more talkative at one point. 308 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:44.440 It was almost like he was having a normal conversation, 309 00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.519 which kind of shocked me because I never had seen 310 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:50.319 that side of Homes before. And so we decided to 311 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:52.519 have on the follow up of that because it went 312 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:54.519 a little bit better, we were going to do another 313 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:59.720 joint session, but that turned in to be our last session. Actually, 314 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:02.559 we didn't have a chance to get very far with 315 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:03.440 the co console. 316 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:06.480 He thought in that session when he spoke to Steve 317 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:08.839 that there had been a couple of things in your 318 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:15.759 sessions with Holmes where again distracted or you inadvertently wrote 319 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:20.279 the wrong name down on a pharmaceutical prescription and also 320 00:19:20.359 --> 00:19:23.359 inadvertently locked them out of the office. So when you 321 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.279 brought in Steve, Steve asked about that, and so he 322 00:19:27.400 --> 00:19:30.440 thought that that there was he was paranoid about certain 323 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:34.640 things from those sessions, but also that he addressed that 324 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:39.440 he thought that you were afraid of him, right right, and. 325 00:19:39.319 --> 00:19:42.119 He thought that's why I brought Steven. He's like, well, 326 00:19:42.160 --> 00:19:46.119 that's why you're here, right, Fenton's afraid of me, and 327 00:19:46.319 --> 00:19:49.720 Steve's like, oh, what do you mean, And then Holmes 328 00:19:49.799 --> 00:19:52.000 kind of said, well, there was time she locked me 329 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.559 out of the office, which was just a mistake. I'm 330 00:19:54.680 --> 00:19:57.160 carrying a lot of things coming into the office in 331 00:19:57.200 --> 00:19:59.640 the morning and you have to sort of like manually 332 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:02.960 locked the outer door, and I just hadn't done that, 333 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:04.759 and then I forgot to go back and unlock it. 334 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:06.640 So he was the first patient of the day, so 335 00:20:06.680 --> 00:20:10.000 when he came, outer door to the waiting room was locked. 336 00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:13.440 And then he also mentioned another time that I had 337 00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:17.240 like a big box in the office, and so I 338 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.400 don't know if he thought it was like a weapon 339 00:20:19.799 --> 00:20:23.200 or something. But it was just some shoes that you know, 340 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:25.400 they didn't fit, and so I was returning in life, 341 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:27.920 I had them there to drop them off at the 342 00:20:28.039 --> 00:20:32.839 UPS drop off. Yeah, he also had thought so Steve 343 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:35.559 had like sprained his wrist and so he came in 344 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:37.839 kind of wrapped up and it was in a sling, 345 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:43.319 And in retrospect during the trial, Holmes had said he 346 00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:47.559 thought that Steve did that on purpose to like see 347 00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:52.559 if he could generate some sympathy in homes. So again, 348 00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:55.519 just like really strange lines of thinking. 349 00:20:55.720 --> 00:21:00.279 You had a calleague that had a disturbing experience with 350 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:04.759 a killer that she was treating, and she had no idea. Again, 351 00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:08.519 she he did talk about killing, but nothing specific. And 352 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:12.200 then this one person went on to create an incredible 353 00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:17.000 crime involving his girlfriend and putting her remains in a blender. Now, 354 00:21:17.039 --> 00:21:20.839 what was her fear more than just the normal as 355 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:23.279 you say that did I do enough? Did I do 356 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.440 everything I could have done to prevent something like this happening? 357 00:21:26.599 --> 00:21:28.160 But what was her other fear? 358 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:31.359 Her big fear was, well, you know what if my 359 00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.640 name goes out and everybody knows who I am, they're 360 00:21:34.640 --> 00:21:37.759 gonna be Oh, there's that doctor of you know, the murder, 361 00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:40.799 who's Decka's girlfriend, and the blender, and you know, will 362 00:21:40.799 --> 00:21:44.079 I lose my job? And what about my kids? She 363 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.440 had young kids in school, you know, are they going 364 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:49.519 to will they be in danger from people who hate me? 365 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:52.960 And so it was really like a fear of being outed. 366 00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:59.200 Let's get back to Holmes's girlfriend, this GUARDI she tells him, 367 00:21:58.759 --> 00:22:02.039 I'm interestingly on Valentine's Day, you write, he makes a 368 00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:06.119 fancy dinner candlelight and she says, you know, I think 369 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:08.359 we shouldn't see each other anymore. I don't see a future. 370 00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:12.160 I think we should just be friends with benefits. After that, 371 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:17.319 they correspond in G chats. As you write what does 372 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:20.920 he have to say to her? You provide that exchange. 373 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:24.000 What does she say to him in response to the 374 00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:26.440 things he says to her in that chat? 375 00:22:26.680 --> 00:22:29.200 Well, I'm not sure I remember that exact chat, but 376 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:33.640 he was kind of saying something about killing people, So 377 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.519 it was more direct than I have thought of this. 378 00:22:36.640 --> 00:22:39.799 It's something more along the lines that he would like 379 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:44.319 to kill people. And then she was sort of trying 380 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:47.680 to ask a little bit more, Oh, really, you know why? 381 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.680 And it wasn't making sense the answers back to her, 382 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.599 She said, well, why did you kill me other friend? 383 00:22:54.759 --> 00:22:57.200 You know He's like, no, no, no, I only want 384 00:22:57.240 --> 00:23:01.119 to kill like random people that I don't no. And 385 00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:05.319 then this odd idea that he would accrue their human capital, 386 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:08.359 which reminds me of a video game. You know, you 387 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:11.160 kill somebody and maybe you get points or you get 388 00:23:11.240 --> 00:23:14.599 some of their attributes. So his girlfriend, of course, was like, 389 00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:18.200 what are you talking about? This makes no sense. You 390 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.880 know that he was conveying to her more than he'd 391 00:23:21.880 --> 00:23:22.880 ever said to me. 392 00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:27.559 Now, the reason why James comes to your attention is 393 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:31.480 also because he can get treatment because he's a student 394 00:23:31.519 --> 00:23:36.440 at the university. What about his course? And with the 395 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:39.720 session with Steve and yourself, Steve asks him and you 396 00:23:39.799 --> 00:23:42.920 ask as well about how is the course going, how 397 00:23:43.039 --> 00:23:47.039 is school going? And what is his response? 398 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:52.119 Right, So this was by then we're well into the spring. 399 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.880 I think it was probably May that session, and which 400 00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:59.640 is the time of year that all the grad programs, 401 00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:04.039