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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 6: host journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 5: Good evening. As an expert and speaker on mass shootings
Speaker 5: and gun violence, Doctor Lynn Fenton knew it was impossible
Speaker 5: to spot a killer. But when she met her new patient,
Speaker 5: troubled grad student James Holmes, the hair on her arm
Speaker 5: stood up. She feared he was going to kill, yet
Speaker 5: she could find no way to thwart him. A few
Speaker 5: months later, Holmes struck. He entered a packed movie theater
Speaker 5: and opened fire, killing twelve people and wounding seventy. Some
Speaker 5: were left brain damaged. Se were paralyzed for life. Immediately,
Speaker 5: the familiar debates reignited, the crisis of mental health access,
Speaker 5: more restrictive gun laws versus more good guys with guns,
Speaker 5: the morality of the death penalty, the legitimacy of the
Speaker 5: insanity defense. But what about the victims and bystanders whose
Speaker 5: lives would never be the same. Doctor Fenton's memoir is
Speaker 5: a voice for them. Her inability to thwart Holmes's mass
Speaker 5: murder made her escapegoat and elicited innumerable death threats. Her
Speaker 5: chilling account provides an intimate look at her life before
Speaker 5: and after the Aurora massacure, as well as alarming insight
Speaker 5: into the sinister patient who called himself Fear Incarnate. With
Speaker 5: unprecedented access to thousands of pages of documents, audio and
Speaker 5: video recordings, trial transcripts, medical records, and notes, Aurora attempts
Speaker 5: to answer the question Holmes himself posed in his infamous
Speaker 5: notebook Why Why Why. The book that we're featuring this evening,
Speaker 5: is Aurora, the psychiatrist that treated the movie theater killer
Speaker 5: tells her story with my special guests, Doctor Lynn Fenton.
Speaker 5: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 5: this interview, Doctor Lynn Fenton.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, and congratulations on this incredible book.
Speaker 5: Let's start off in twenty twelve, as you do in
Speaker 5: your book. Right away, tell us what your position was
Speaker 5: at the faculty of the University of Colorado School of medicine.
Speaker 2: So at the time that Holmes was a graduate student
Speaker 2: in twenty twelve, I was the chief of the Student
Speaker 2: Mental Health Service and we treated all the graduate students
Speaker 2: in all of our medical grad programs.
Speaker 5: Tell us about some of the things that you did.
Speaker 5: You talked about a yearly lecture that you did on
Speaker 5: mass shootings. Which shooting did you particularly talk about and
Speaker 5: why what did you try to and want to convey
Speaker 5: to your students about the mass shooting.
Speaker 2: I taught lots of courses, and one of them was
Speaker 2: course on student Mental Health, and that particular class was
Speaker 2: for our most senior fourth year psychiatry residency trainees, so
Speaker 2: they're just finishing their specialty training. And it so happened
Speaker 2: that that year twenty twelve, when I was giving the lecture,
Speaker 2: a number of the students in my class had been
Speaker 2: in high school when the one of the early terrible
Speaker 2: school shootings occurred at Columbine, which is south of Denver
Speaker 2: and Aurora. So I chose to first focus on that
Speaker 2: for the lecture because it just was important personally and
Speaker 2: a lot of those students' lives. None of them had
Speaker 2: gone to Columbine at the time, but a lot of them,
Speaker 2: had friends and knew some survivors.
Speaker 5: From that, you write that three out of four school shootings,
Speaker 5: the attacker made no direct threat against the teachers or students,
Speaker 5: but they still posed a threat. You also discussed with
Speaker 5: your students Virginia Tech that killer. So what did you
Speaker 5: discuss with them regarding the Virginia Tech killer.
Speaker 2: So Virginia Tech was is still to this day one
Speaker 2: of the most horrible shootings mass shootings period, let alone
Speaker 2: school shootings. Over thirty people were killed. And one of
Speaker 2: the big lessons that we learned from Virginia Tech in
Speaker 2: retrospect was that members of one department, say the English department,
Speaker 2: were reluctant to speak with members of department. I think
Speaker 2: it was maybe the Math department, or to speak with
Speaker 2: mental health providers or law enforcement for fear that they're
Speaker 2: violating the student's privacy. And so in that case, even
Speaker 2: though the shooter, Chow had been placed at one point
Speaker 2: on a mental healthhold, he also was known to the
Speaker 2: police and he was exhibiting all these alarming behaviors before
Speaker 2: the shooting. People were not talking to each other. They
Speaker 2: were kind of protecting his privacy. So after the Virginia
Speaker 2: Tech shooting, it was clear that we cannot do that.
Speaker 2: So if you are suspicious that a student is potentially
Speaker 2: dangerous to themselves or others, then you can contact other
Speaker 2: people if you need to get more information or to
Speaker 2: pass on your concerns about this student. And so that
Speaker 2: was a huge thing that do not let worries about
Speaker 2: privacy about a student to prevent you from saying something
Speaker 2: if you're worried, And then analogous to that, in mental healthcare,
Speaker 2: we of course try Usually we really protect our patients'
Speaker 2: privacy and will not be divulging things to anybody else.
Speaker 2: But in the case of possible danger, like if you
Speaker 2: think a person is a danger to themselves or to
Speaker 2: others in that emergency, then you can break that rule
Speaker 2: and talk to other folks. So we spent a lot
Speaker 2: of time to sort of reminding the students about this
Speaker 2: and how to proceed if you run into somebody that
Speaker 2: you're fearful might commit one of these mass shootings.
Speaker 5: You introduced James Egan Holmes, twenty four years old, doctoral
Speaker 5: student in neurosciences and one of a handful you write
Speaker 5: of gifted students accepted into the college. The college is
Speaker 5: prestigious neuroscience program. But you said that Holmes had some
Speaker 5: problems publicly speaking, what we're some of those problems.
Speaker 2: He was a very anxious, nervous guy. And in fact,
Speaker 2: this is why he first came to Student Mental Health
Speaker 2: was he had so much anxiety during his lab presentations
Speaker 2: and what was just made all these awkward jokes that
Speaker 2: one of his supervisors suggested that he come into Student
Speaker 2: Mental Health to see if we could help him. And
Speaker 2: so that's why he came of his own accord to
Speaker 2: Student Mental Health and came to see me.
Speaker 5: In fact, you got a voicemail from a colleague social worker,
Speaker 5: Margaret Roath, and she said that she knew you had
Speaker 5: a long waiting list, but you should make an exemption
Speaker 5: for this guy. You quote her saying he's a bit unusual,
Speaker 5: might be best to keep him in the system, and
Speaker 5: she wanted him monitored closely and said that he was
Speaker 5: a most anxious person she had ever dealt with, period,
Speaker 5: and that he had just broken up with his girlfriend.
Speaker 5: And you knew who that woman was because you had
Speaker 5: referred her to another counselor. You agreed and tell us
Speaker 5: about this first appointment with James Holmes.
Speaker 2: Well, I was already expecting somebody very nervous. Margaret, who
Speaker 2: was the social worker on our team and saw lots
Speaker 2: of these students, was real veteran, and so when she
Speaker 2: said this is the most anxious guy I've seen, you know,
Speaker 2: my ears perked up. And when she was she said,
Speaker 2: you know, he'd be mentioning he has thoughts of killing
Speaker 2: and killing others not but she said, I don't think
Speaker 2: he's actually dangerous, but he's really very odd. So let's
Speaker 2: could you please see him yourself. Usually when we have
Speaker 2: a long waiting list somebody needs to get in right away,
Speaker 2: we'd refer them to a psychiatrist in the community. That
Speaker 2: Margaret thought, he's a little odd, let's let's keep a
Speaker 2: closer eye on him. So that's how I came to
Speaker 2: see him. So I contacted him right away. A few
Speaker 2: days later, we had our first appointment, and boy, so
Speaker 2: he was absolutely very sort of anxious, nervous, unusual eye contact,
Speaker 2: kind of like staring at different points around the room
Speaker 2: and inter mentally staring at me. And he also even
Speaker 2: just moved kind of awkward and nervously, almost robotically, kind
Speaker 2: of shooting up from the chair in the waiting room.
Speaker 2: Kind of marching back into the treatment area. But the
Speaker 2: most difficult thing really was that was really hard to
Speaker 2: get him to say more than about a two word answer,
Speaker 2: sort of like if you're talking to, say, a teenager
Speaker 2: who doesn't want to talk to you, and you say, oh,
Speaker 2: I was cool, fine, you know, just these very brief,
Speaker 2: uninformative answers. And so I spent the most of the
Speaker 2: next six sessions, over several months, trying to figure out
Speaker 2: what was behind this thought of killing people? Did he
Speaker 2: actually have any intent of hurting someone or that capacity
Speaker 2: to do that? And he was really hard to work with.
Speaker 5: Now you just skipped a little bit ahead to what
Speaker 5: he said about hurting people killing people, Yeah, you knew.
Speaker 5: And yet you write in the book that he had
Speaker 5: first seen a therapist when he was eight years old,
Speaker 5: when he punched his sister in the face. He had
Speaker 5: only gone to three sessions. They had diagnosed him with
Speaker 5: oppositional defiance disorder, but that was about it. It seemed that
Speaker 5: he would be okay. He was okay. So no one
Speaker 5: had seen him before, He had no psychiatric record before
Speaker 5: you saw him, Is that correct, right?
Speaker 2: You know, kind of nerdy, anxious kid. Yeah, had that
Speaker 2: sort of brief issue.
Speaker 7: And then once when they moved to a larger city
Speaker 7: in California, they had a little family counseling. But I
Speaker 7: mean he didn't have a history problems, he didn't have
Speaker 7: any legal record, and yeah, no prior psychiatric treatment.
Speaker 5: It's interesting you talk about you write about his background
Speaker 5: is his parents, his father and his grandfather, and that
Speaker 5: there had been they had been involved with something called
Speaker 5: DARPA and so this was involved with a peak soldier
Speaker 5: performance experiments and study. Interestingly, James Holmes comes into treatment,
Speaker 5: but how do you get around You said, it was
Speaker 5: very hard to extract anything from him, especially in that
Speaker 5: first interview and that first session. How did you come
Speaker 5: upon the subject of him wanting or fantasizing about killing people?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's very interesting. So he first saw my
Speaker 2: colleague Margaret and said, you know, I'm here for anxiety,
Speaker 2: and she asked him about it. But at some point
Speaker 2: when she was talking to him, he just said, almost
Speaker 2: kind of out of the blue, offhandedly, I have thoughts
Speaker 2: of killing people, you know, just like what and try
Speaker 2: to find out more. He wouldn't really say anything, and
Speaker 2: so it was very similar with me. You know, I
Speaker 2: sort of said, so Margaret said, you have these thoughts,
Speaker 2: tell me about that, and he just you know, wouldn't
Speaker 2: or couldn't elaborate, just just thoughts of killing people one person,
Speaker 2: interviewing everybody. But you can't do that. That's not a
Speaker 2: good solution. And so he's the one who brought it up.
Speaker 2: And then you know, I kept pursuing it, but he
Speaker 2: think in retrospect he didn't want me to learn more
Speaker 2: because there was a chance that maybe I'd lock him
Speaker 2: up or somehow prevent his plan.
Speaker 5: Now regarding that, what are the rules, what is your protocol?
Speaker 5: What do you do when somebody in treatment says that
Speaker 5: they want to kill somebody or they're thinking of killing somebody,
Speaker 5: or what are the rules? And yeah, tell us what
Speaker 5: those rules are governing you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So if you get some specifics like maybe target
Speaker 2: or a group of people or a place, or if
Speaker 2: you get the sense that this this is something kind
Speaker 2: of imminent that they're planning, it's not a statement like
Speaker 2: someday I'm going to get that person, then you can
Speaker 2: place them on what's called a mental healthhold, and that
Speaker 2: is where we can so called lock people up on
Speaker 2: a psychiatric unit for up to seventy two hours against
Speaker 2: their will, and that gives us a chance to gather
Speaker 2: more information, So mostly talking to the patient saying if
Speaker 2: they'll elaborate more, but also contacting law enforcement and family members, colleagues,
Speaker 2: things like that to try to find out more if
Speaker 2: is there truly risk of this person doing something and
Speaker 2: is there somebody place or a group of people we
Speaker 2: need to warn so they could watch out. In Holmes's case,
Speaker 2: he just never came close to meeting criteria for a
Speaker 2: mental healthhold. He was just too vague. And even when
Speaker 2: you do put somebody on a mental healthfold for homicidal
Speaker 2: ideation to a large ex stent relying on what the
Speaker 2: patient tells you to and if somebody smart and determined
Speaker 2: like Holmes was to carry out a mass murder, then
Speaker 2: they can just lie or not talk during the mental
Speaker 2: healthhold and at the end of the seventy two hours
Speaker 2: you have to let him go.
Speaker 5: You when you first learned about James, you thought a
Speaker 5: way through to be able to communicate with him was
Speaker 5: to empathize with him about breakups. And he had just
Speaker 5: broken up with his girlfriend, or at least she had
Speaker 5: redefined the relationship and he wasn't interested tell us what
Speaker 5: he had to say about the relationship and its effect
Speaker 5: on him.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was very strange. So one a sort of
Speaker 2: a general statement he made about his relationships was, I
Speaker 2: don't have relationships with people. They have relationships with me,
Speaker 2: sort of as if he's kind of going through his
Speaker 2: life he does not seek out any kind of interactions.
Speaker 2: You'd rather just be to himself. What you know, if
Speaker 2: somebody comes in the picture and wants to be his
Speaker 2: friend or date him, then you know, he might go
Speaker 2: along with it. But he had Yeah, I had some
Speaker 2: strange statements about when we were talking about the breakup.
Speaker 2: Then he said, let's see, I don't see the I
Speaker 2: don't see the glasses half full or half empty. I
Speaker 2: see beyond the glass, and a couple of other sort
Speaker 2: of sophomore very strange statements, sort of as if he
Speaker 2: thought they were, you know, quite intellectual and penetrating or something.
Speaker 2: But meanwhile, to an average person they just seem odd overall, though,
Speaker 2: I mean, a breakup can be stressful enough that somebody
Speaker 2: who's inclined to commit some kind of murder might be
Speaker 2: a tipping point. So was really interested to find out,
Speaker 2: you know how he was coping if he was okay.
Speaker 2: I mean, he did admit to you know, he's a
Speaker 2: little bit sad, but he wasn't torn up about it,
Speaker 2: and you know, they were still kind of friendly and
Speaker 2: talking after so and he never expressed anything like I
Speaker 2: hate all women, you know, because they won't date me,
Speaker 2: or something like you'd be just each time I would
Speaker 2: pursue what I thought might be something that would give
Speaker 2: me more information, it would just kind of evaporate by
Speaker 2: his saying nothing or what he said reassured me that
Speaker 2: he wasn't that upset.
Speaker 5: This patient really concerned you and consume your thoughts, and
Speaker 5: so you spoke with other psychiatrists that were your colleagues
Speaker 5: and your friends, and you also at some point spoke
Speaker 5: to your supervisor, Steve. Tell us why you spoke to
Speaker 5: Steve and what did you want potentially Steve to do.
Speaker 2: So A great thing about working in a university setting,
Speaker 2: as you have all these fabulous colleagues all around you,
Speaker 2: and we're used to collaborating, so you can discuss difficult
Speaker 2: cases with other folks and with psychiatry. We had the
Speaker 2: culture at the University of Colorado to occasionally bring in
Speaker 2: one of our colleagues and have sort of a joint
Speaker 2: visit and say, you know, hey, what do you think
Speaker 2: of this person? Can you does he connect better with you?
Speaker 2: Can you think of anything else I could do? So
Speaker 2: that's how worried I was about this guy. I had
Speaker 2: discussed the case with my supervisor and we decided to
Speaker 2: have joint visit, and you know, it did go a
Speaker 2: little better because I was wondering, maybe Holmes is extra
Speaker 2: awkward with women, maybe he'll do better with a man.
Speaker 2: Steve was a little bit older, had kind of a
Speaker 2: different style than I do, and so I thought, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe they would connect better. It actually did go a
Speaker 2: little bit better. Homes was more talkative at one point.
Speaker 2: It was almost like he was having a normal conversation,
Speaker 2: which kind of shocked me because I never had seen
Speaker 2: that side of Homes before. And so we decided to
Speaker 2: have on the follow up of that because it went
Speaker 2: a little bit better, we were going to do another
Speaker 2: joint session, but that turned in to be our last session. Actually,
Speaker 2: we didn't have a chance to get very far with
Speaker 2: the co console.
Speaker 5: He thought in that session when he spoke to Steve
Speaker 5: that there had been a couple of things in your
Speaker 5: sessions with Holmes where again distracted or you inadvertently wrote
Speaker 5: the wrong name down on a pharmaceutical prescription and also
Speaker 5: inadvertently locked them out of the office. So when you
Speaker 5: brought in Steve, Steve asked about that, and so he
Speaker 5: thought that that there was he was paranoid about certain
Speaker 5: things from those sessions, but also that he addressed that
Speaker 5: he thought that you were afraid of him, right right, and.
Speaker 2: He thought that's why I brought Steven. He's like, well,
Speaker 2: that's why you're here, right, Fenton's afraid of me, and
Speaker 2: Steve's like, oh, what do you mean, And then Holmes
Speaker 2: kind of said, well, there was time she locked me
Speaker 2: out of the office, which was just a mistake. I'm
Speaker 2: carrying a lot of things coming into the office in
Speaker 2: the morning and you have to sort of like manually
Speaker 2: locked the outer door, and I just hadn't done that,
Speaker 2: and then I forgot to go back and unlock it.
Speaker 2: So he was the first patient of the day, so
Speaker 2: when he came, outer door to the waiting room was locked.
Speaker 2: And then he also mentioned another time that I had
Speaker 2: like a big box in the office, and so I
Speaker 2: don't know if he thought it was like a weapon
Speaker 2: or something. But it was just some shoes that you know,
Speaker 2: they didn't fit, and so I was returning in life,
Speaker 2: I had them there to drop them off at the
Speaker 2: UPS drop off. Yeah, he also had thought so Steve
Speaker 2: had like sprained his wrist and so he came in
Speaker 2: kind of wrapped up and it was in a sling,
Speaker 2: And in retrospect during the trial, Holmes had said he
Speaker 2: thought that Steve did that on purpose to like see
Speaker 2: if he could generate some sympathy in homes. So again,
Speaker 2: just like really strange lines of thinking.
Speaker 5: You had a calleague that had a disturbing experience with
Speaker 5: a killer that she was treating, and she had no idea. Again,
Speaker 5: she he did talk about killing, but nothing specific. And
Speaker 5: then this one person went on to create an incredible
Speaker 5: crime involving his girlfriend and putting her remains in a blender. Now,
Speaker 5: what was her fear more than just the normal as
Speaker 5: you say that did I do enough? Did I do
Speaker 5: everything I could have done to prevent something like this happening?
Speaker 5: But what was her other fear?
Speaker 2: Her big fear was, well, you know what if my
Speaker 2: name goes out and everybody knows who I am, they're
Speaker 2: gonna be Oh, there's that doctor of you know, the murder,
Speaker 2: who's Decka's girlfriend, and the blender, and you know, will
Speaker 2: I lose my job? And what about my kids? She
Speaker 2: had young kids in school, you know, are they going
Speaker 2: to will they be in danger from people who hate me?
Speaker 2: And so it was really like a fear of being outed.
Speaker 5: Let's get back to Holmes's girlfriend, this GUARDI she tells him,
Speaker 5: I'm interestingly on Valentine's Day, you write, he makes a
Speaker 5: fancy dinner candlelight and she says, you know, I think
Speaker 5: we shouldn't see each other anymore. I don't see a future.
Speaker 5: I think we should just be friends with benefits. After that,
Speaker 5: they correspond in G chats. As you write what does
Speaker 5: he have to say to her? You provide that exchange.
Speaker 5: What does she say to him in response to the
Speaker 5: things he says to her in that chat?
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure I remember that exact chat, but
Speaker 2: he was kind of saying something about killing people, So
Speaker 2: it was more direct than I have thought of this.
Speaker 2: It's something more along the lines that he would like
Speaker 2: to kill people. And then she was sort of trying
Speaker 2: to ask a little bit more, Oh, really, you know why?
Speaker 2: And it wasn't making sense the answers back to her,
Speaker 2: She said, well, why did you kill me other friend?
Speaker 2: You know He's like, no, no, no, I only want
Speaker 2: to kill like random people that I don't no. And
Speaker 2: then this odd idea that he would accrue their human capital,
Speaker 2: which reminds me of a video game. You know, you
Speaker 2: kill somebody and maybe you get points or you get
Speaker 2: some of their attributes. So his girlfriend, of course, was like,
Speaker 2: what are you talking about? This makes no sense. You
Speaker 2: know that he was conveying to her more than he'd
Speaker 2: ever said to me.
Speaker 5: Now, the reason why James comes to your attention is
Speaker 5: also because he can get treatment because he's a student
Speaker 5: at the university. What about his course? And with the
Speaker 5: session with Steve and yourself, Steve asks him and you
Speaker 5: ask as well about how is the course going, how
Speaker 5: is school going? And what is his response?
Speaker 2: Right, So this was by then we're well into the spring.
Speaker 2: I think it was probably May that session, and which
Speaker 2: is the time of year that all the grad programs,
Speaker 2: the first year students have this big preliminary exam, so
Speaker 2: it's to make sure that they've got some basic scientific
Speaker 2: knowledge about their specialty, so they're ready to go on
Speaker 2: and work in the labs and start doing some research.
Speaker 2: So it's a big deal. People study for a long
Speaker 2: time about it. Everybody's really nervous about prelimbs. Occasionally somebody
Speaker 2: doesn't pass. I've had worked with some students who didn't pass.
Speaker 2: But the schools are very invested in their students and
Speaker 2: they're like, well, that's okay. We're going to set you
Speaker 2: up with a tutor. How can we help you, and
Speaker 2: then they'll let them retake the test. So when we
Speaker 2: asked Holmes, you know, how are things going, because we
Speaker 2: knew these pre limbs were coming up, he said, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm not studying. I'm Musli. I'm just playing these It was,
Speaker 2: you know, some one of these first person shooter video games. Right, Oh,
Speaker 2: that's kind of worse. And then sure enough he comes
Speaker 2: back for what turned out to be the last session
Speaker 2: in early June, and I said, how did your test go?
Speaker 2: And he said, very flatly, I failed. I was like, oh, no, well, shoot,
Speaker 2: that's okay. You know, I know some people haven't passed
Speaker 2: the first time, and they'll they'll help you and you'll
Speaker 2: pass the next time. It's like, no, actually, I'm not interested.
Speaker 2: I decided that I'm going to drop out, and so
Speaker 2: both Steve and I, you know, were alarmed because a
Speaker 2: lot of times it's a big negative event like this
Speaker 2: that can set somebody off where they do commit a
Speaker 2: crime or kill themselves. So rapidly we're asking him, you know,
Speaker 2: what are you going to do? Well? It turns out
Speaker 2: he had a lot of money in savings, He had
Speaker 2: lease on his apartment for a while. He thought, well,
Speaker 2: I won't break the lease, so I'll stay there, you know,
Speaker 2: at least through the end of the calendar year. What
Speaker 2: are you going to do well, Probably I'll I'll get
Speaker 2: a job somewhere and you know, just think about my career,
Speaker 2: next career start. Well, your family are they going to
Speaker 2: be upset? Oh? No, I already told them. I was
Speaker 2: thinking it wasn't a good match. They'll be supportive of me.
Speaker 2: So all the things that we were kind of worried
Speaker 2: might make him feel desperate were not occurring. He seemed,
Speaker 2: you know, pretty resigned to the fact he was leaving.
Speaker 2: And he didn't seem that at the school either. It
Speaker 2: wasn't like those darn teachers wrote to Howard of a
Speaker 2: test or, I hate this school. If it weren't for them,
Speaker 2: I'd be fun nothing like that. He was just kind
Speaker 2: of non chalant. So he at the end of that session,
Speaker 2: which he cut short about usually we talked forty five
Speaker 2: to fifty minutes. About twenty minutes into the session, he said, well,
Speaker 2: I have to go, I have to go talk to
Speaker 2: my advisor. And he just, in his weird way, he
Speaker 2: like just shot straight up. He was looking right at
Speaker 2: the exit door, and he just kind of marched very
Speaker 2: stiffly straight to that door and walked out. Didn't look
Speaker 2: at Steve or me, didn't say one more word thanks
Speaker 2: for your health or anything like that. It was just
Speaker 2: the oddest ending.
Speaker 5: Now, was that the time that he decided you offered
Speaker 5: interestingly to treat him for free.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. He said, well, I'm dropping out, so this
Speaker 2: is going to be my last session. And so I
Speaker 2: can't remember if it was Steve or me, but we
Speaker 2: both essentially we're offering to keep treating him for free,
Speaker 2: even though his student health insurance was going to end,
Speaker 2: and he said, well, not going to be here anymore,
Speaker 2: so what's the point. Because he was looking at it
Speaker 2: that we were treating his anxiety for the presentations, he
Speaker 2: wouldn't be presenting anymore, so in his head, what's the point?
Speaker 2: But then Steve said, well, what about treatment for your life?
Speaker 2: You know, because both of us were just concerned in
Speaker 2: just his whole direction was going to happen, and I
Speaker 2: was hopeful for a few seconds like Post didn't answer,
Speaker 2: maybe it was yes, He's like, nah, so you turn
Speaker 2: that down.
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Speaker 5: doctor Fenton, we were speaking about what was happening in
Speaker 5: May twenty twelve, as you write fifty three days approximately
Speaker 5: before this massacre, while classmates prepared for their preliminary exams.
Speaker 5: You write that he ordered a glock thirty.
Speaker 8: Four to nine mills Liminar handgun from a Wisconsin company
Speaker 8: and they have about one hundred websites that they could
Speaker 8: you could buy weaponry from. Also, two grenade style canisters
Speaker 8: of tear gas, a gas mask with a special air filter,
Speaker 8: but when that pistol failed to arrive, he bought a
Speaker 8: glock twenty two forty caliber handgun with hollowpoint saber cartridges,
Speaker 8: just from.
Speaker 5: The local sporting goods shop. So while that is going on,
Speaker 5: what is going on in Home's life besides that weaponry
Speaker 5: accumulation of those weapons.
Speaker 2: Well, he at some point during the treatment with me
Speaker 2: had kind of shifted from just vague thoughts of killing
Speaker 2: people to actually creating an action plan, and so he
Speaker 2: had cased out various locations and sort of narrowed it
Speaker 2: down to this particular theater. And we know a lot
Speaker 2: of this because he wrote a sort of manifesto that
Speaker 2: is referred to as the Notebook, and he sent it
Speaker 2: to me just shortly before the shooting, so not intending
Speaker 2: to actually get to me prevent the shooting, but kind
Speaker 2: of explain why he had done these things. So he
Speaker 2: was going and not only massing this arsenal of weapons
Speaker 2: and tactical self protective equipment, but he was also going
Speaker 2: to the shooting range and with tons of ammo enough
Speaker 2: that it caught the eye of some of the folks
Speaker 2: who worked there, and shooting up very violently these human silhouettes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so he was doing that, he was playing video games
Speaker 2: and not studying for his big exam.
Speaker 5: You were very concerned, but you had ethical constraints, but
Speaker 5: you called his mother tell us about that, right.
Speaker 2: So normally, if a patient, if you ask a patient,
Speaker 2: if you can call a family member, talk to friends
Speaker 2: for more information. If they say no, then you know
Speaker 2: you don't call them. The one instance where we'll break
Speaker 2: that rule is if we're really concerned that the patient
Speaker 2: might kill himself or somebody else. And so even though
Speaker 2: I had no specifics and Holmes would not even let
Speaker 2: on that he had, he denied he had any weapons,
Speaker 2: He denied that he was intending to do anything. I
Speaker 2: still had such a bad feeling. I thought, I really
Speaker 2: need to talk to somebody who hasn't known him for
Speaker 2: a long time so I can figure out if this
Speaker 2: is a new episode of psychosis, like a first psychotic
Speaker 2: break for schizophrenia, for instance, or has he always been
Speaker 2: just kind of nerdy, awkward and strange this way. So
Speaker 2: even though he specifically said don't call my family, I
Speaker 2: called her anyway right after that last visit, and in
Speaker 2: talking to her, I really had the impression that he'd
Speaker 2: always been, you know, kind of a little odd, very
Speaker 2: shy kid, kind of a little odd nerdy, But so
Speaker 2: to me, it did not sound like this was new
Speaker 2: strange behavior, that he was undergoing a psychotic break. So yeah,
Speaker 2: as similarly, I called actually all the members of our
Speaker 2: threat assessment team, which, since Virginia Tech the terrible school shooting,
Speaker 2: pretty much all institutions of higher learning have these threat
Speaker 2: assessment teams where we're able to bring information from different
Speaker 2: angles and put it all together in case, you know,
Speaker 2: somebody seriously is a danger to themselves or others. So
Speaker 2: I talked to the legal representative, I talked to folks
Speaker 2: in the neuroscience's grad program. I spoke to some of
Speaker 2: his supervisors who'd worked with him, and they all agreed,
Speaker 2: you know, he's pretty weird. We just kind of chalked
Speaker 2: it up to being very nervous, and they never had
Speaker 2: heard him say anything that was alarming or frightening, that
Speaker 2: he was going that he was threatening anybody, or that
Speaker 2: they thought he was capable of doing anything. And I
Speaker 2: talked to the campus police officer too, who was able
Speaker 2: to check and see that he did not have a
Speaker 2: criminal record. At the time. I had the misconception that
Speaker 2: she would be able to see if he had purchased
Speaker 2: any guns, not realizing that Colorado is a state where
Speaker 2: you don't have to register or get a license to
Speaker 2: get a gun. So on June eleventh, when I called
Speaker 2: around to all these people, Holmes had already amassed part
Speaker 2: of his arsenal, but that was not something that the
Speaker 2: police officer could locate in any database.
Speaker 5: You talk about the July sixth, you wondered, it was
Speaker 5: two months after he had quit the sessions, and you
Speaker 5: wondered about him, did you do enough? And then July twelfth,
Speaker 5: you're write that he was at Walmart, and this is
Speaker 5: eight days before buying bomb making materials at a Denver
Speaker 5: hobby shop, and he was at Walmart getting various chemicals, electrodes.
Speaker 5: And then you write about that faithful night near midnight
Speaker 5: July nineteenth, twentieth, he had everything set up at his apartment,
Speaker 5: the detonating devices, the fishing line, trip wire to an
Speaker 5: ignite upon entry and explode. He had a ghetto blaster
Speaker 5: or a boom box, I would say, and set up
Speaker 5: that he would have forty minutes of silence and then
Speaker 5: have this trigger this explosion, and eleven forty five he
Speaker 5: left to go to this dark theater, the Century Theater,
Speaker 5: where he had cased this out previously in the weeks
Speaker 5: before he knew the police response, and he had all
Speaker 5: kinds of tactical equipment he had ordered. He had this
Speaker 5: ballistic helmet, he had the tactical gear, the pants, the top,
Speaker 5: the jacket, he had everything. He had the look. He
Speaker 5: had his hair, you say, July first, he had dyed
Speaker 5: his hair bright orange to look like the Joker. He
Speaker 5: had memorized most of many of the scenes involving the
Speaker 5: Joker from the movie The Dark Knight, and had taken
Speaker 5: selfies get possession lens you say, to look even better
Speaker 5: than usual. So he was ready at eleven forty five
Speaker 5: heading towards that movie theater to enact to his plan,
Speaker 5: his action plan. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what he did was went into the theater and
Speaker 2: he had a little glitch he had. It was one
Speaker 2: of those multiplexes, and there was a particular theater he
Speaker 2: wanted to get into because it had an exteriar exit
Speaker 2: and very few ways for the people to get out.
Speaker 2: So he had a little glitch where he tried to
Speaker 2: buy a ticket and it kept giving him one to
Speaker 2: the wrong theater. Then he realized nobody was really checking
Speaker 2: which theater on the ticket. So once he realized once
Speaker 2: he was past the ticket person, he could just walk
Speaker 2: into the one he wanted. And he had parked his
Speaker 2: car right close to the exteriar exit of that theater.
Speaker 2: So one point he pretended he was answering his phone
Speaker 2: as people you know, are kind of coming in and
Speaker 2: getting their seats, getting excited for the show, and he's
Speaker 2: sort of faked talking and opens the exit door as
Speaker 2: if he's being you know, polite to step out and
Speaker 2: take this call. But he put it. It's like a
Speaker 2: tablecloth holder. He's stuck on the door such that when
Speaker 2: it closed, it wouldn't lock. And he went to his
Speaker 2: car and got all his weapons, his helmet, and some
Speaker 2: panisters of teargas, and so he came back in with
Speaker 2: this stuff. He was sitting right in the upper corner
Speaker 2: and then started his attack, which started off by detonating
Speaker 2: some of the tear gas, and at first people thought
Speaker 2: maybe it was part of the show, because this was
Speaker 2: opening night of you know, a popular Batman movie, And
Speaker 2: it wasn't until they started hearing the shots and people
Speaker 2: started screaming that they realized this is not part of
Speaker 2: the show, and he shot just multiple rounds. At some
Speaker 2: point the semi automatic jammed, but he was shooting people
Speaker 2: as they were running for the exits. The high caliber
Speaker 2: bullets would just pierce right right through the theater seats,
Speaker 2: and so, you know, just so many people shot. There
Speaker 2: were a total of seventy people injured in addition to
Speaker 2: the twelve who were killed. One was a child. So
Speaker 2: just horrible, horrible event. And when he decided it was
Speaker 2: over because his gun jammed, he went back out that
Speaker 2: exit and was by his car when the police came.
Speaker 2: At first, because he was in all this tactical year,
Speaker 2: at first they thought he was part of the response team.
Speaker 2: But then a smart person realized, wait a minute, there
Speaker 2: was something off, and they realized they had the killer
Speaker 2: with them.
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Speaker 5: Now you say that they he was quickly arrested, he
Speaker 5: was brought in for questioning. Things move very quickly. You
Speaker 5: hear from Steve that your patient is involved in this massacre.
Speaker 5: Of course, all your fears come true. You're in some
Speaker 5: form of panic mode. The police speak to you and
Speaker 5: ask you questions that are you have to explain that
Speaker 5: you were not responsible, that you did everything according to protocols,
Speaker 5: and that there was again no imminent serious threat of
Speaker 5: imminent danger. So you have to explain those sort of
Speaker 5: things to them while you were reeling from all of this,
Speaker 5: and while the world was reeling from this, and especially Denver.
Speaker 5: You found out soon after that you were outed. Tell
Speaker 5: us what that meant and this, as Carrie Droven, co
Speaker 5: author wrote, this is the first time in American history
Speaker 5: that a psychiatrist who treated a patient was ever outed.
Speaker 5: So tell us about that experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so unusual to have one of these people
Speaker 2: who had been treated beforehand, and then even then, a
Speaker 2: lot of these shooters, most until recently, would end up
Speaker 2: dead at the end of one of these events. So
Speaker 2: to have a guy who was still alive talking to
Speaker 2: police who actually had seen a psychiatrist relatively recently beforehand
Speaker 2: is just unprecedented. But normally you would not release the
Speaker 2: name of a therapist or a psychon chiatrist to the
Speaker 2: public might come out in a trible or something like that.
Speaker 2: But what happened was there was a court document filed
Speaker 2: that had my name on it because Holmes was telling
Speaker 2: the police that he had sent me this notebook sort
Speaker 2: of a manifesto of why he did what he did,
Speaker 2: that he mailed it to me, and so they there
Speaker 2: was a big scramble. They thought maybe it was bomb
Speaker 2: in the package, and you know, they had to evacuate
Speaker 2: the buildings at the university and stuff they ended up
Speaker 2: finding in the mailroom. But that's why my name was
Speaker 2: in this court document, and they somebody did not redact
Speaker 2: my name and just filed So that was exactly a
Speaker 2: week after the shooting, so the press and the public
Speaker 2: had my name and then instantly, as sort of a
Speaker 2: normal reaction when one of these terrible shootings occurs is
Speaker 2: to think, well, what, how could we have stopped this?
Speaker 2: Is there, you know, somebody who dropped the ball, and
Speaker 2: so as the psychiatrists who had seen him before, people
Speaker 2: not knowing anything about the details of what I did,
Speaker 2: just kind of automatically thought well, she should have stopped it.
Speaker 2: And some people were really angry and felt they knew
Speaker 2: what happened, that I dropped the ball, and so I
Speaker 2: got lots of just threatening emails and voicemails and packages
Speaker 2: and ail and all kinds of stuff. It was really tough.
Speaker 2: And one thing that really made it hard was the
Speaker 2: judge enacted a gag order on myself and anybody else
Speaker 2: who might be testifying in the trial, So there was
Speaker 2: no way for me to say, wait a minute, here's
Speaker 2: what I did, Here's what happened, Here's why I couldn't
Speaker 2: lock him up. So lots of hatred, but not able
Speaker 2: to defend myself.
Speaker 5: You were being prepared for potentially for trial. Colorado has
Speaker 5: unique law in terms of the potential insanity defense that
Speaker 5: the defense could mat in this. Basically that notebook your
Speaker 5: sessions would be inidmissible. The things that he said to
Speaker 5: you would be inimissible if he were not defending himself
Speaker 5: with the insanity. Please tell us about this onus reversal
Speaker 5: here on or the burden of proof that's unique to Colorado.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's a different legal definition of insanity versus
Speaker 2: what most of us think is insane. So to be
Speaker 2: considered sane in a criminal act, a person has to
Speaker 2: have known that what they were doing was wrong, that
Speaker 2: the people they killed did not want to die, and
Speaker 2: that they should not be doing this. So Holmes, I
Speaker 2: mean knew he was facing the death penalty, So that
Speaker 2: doesn't leave his defense a lot of room. You know,
Speaker 2: he was caught red handed. There's no question that this
Speaker 2: was this was the perpetrator. So they decided to go
Speaker 2: for the insanity plea to say he was not guilty
Speaker 2: because by reason of insanity. So because he pled Ngira,
Speaker 2: that meant that all of his records that had anything
Speaker 2: to do with his mental state at the time would
Speaker 2: be admitted. So that's all of my records. That's when
Speaker 2: Steve the consultants saw him, and Margaret grow saw him
Speaker 2: briefly before me on the student mental health team that
Speaker 2: involved two extensive psychiatric forensic evaluations, and so all this
Speaker 2: stuff that normally would be protected by privacy laws became
Speaker 2: part of the trial. And excuse me, at the end
Speaker 2: of the trial, the judge released all the evidence to
Speaker 2: public record. So that's that's how we're able to look
Speaker 2: at all of this.
Speaker 5: You had a harrowing experience having to hide. You got
Speaker 5: for a bulletproof vest. People suggested you get a gun
Speaker 5: to defend yourself, which in the end you said no.
Speaker 5: But this was a harrowing experience where you had death threats,
Speaker 5: you had you had to not stay at your own home,
Speaker 5: that this place there was a sanctuary for you. For
Speaker 5: all this time you've stayed with friends and this grueling
Speaker 5: preparation to be able to testify as a prosecution witness
Speaker 5: in this trial against Holmes, James Holmes, And after six
Speaker 5: months you got this to face James Holmes at court
Speaker 5: at this trial. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that was one of the first hearings, just
Speaker 2: sort of the first time I saw him. They were
Speaker 2: trying to decide whether the notebook that he had sent
Speaker 2: me should be part of the fens. So the actual
Speaker 2: trial wasn't until three years after shooting. So at the time,
Speaker 2: I had a gag order on me and couldn't say
Speaker 2: anything for three years. But when I saw I knew
Speaker 2: he was going to be there at the hearings, so
Speaker 2: I tried to prepare myself for seeing him. And he
Speaker 2: still had his orange hair at that time, and I
Speaker 2: wieled myself to not look at him other than just
Speaker 2: this brief glance. So as I walked into the courtroom,
Speaker 2: I saw him kind of sitting on the defendant side,
Speaker 2: but then I just focused on witness stand where I
Speaker 2: was walking to. I went up there, and I after
Speaker 2: that was just looking straight at whoever was asking me
Speaker 2: a question and did not look at Homes again, because
Speaker 2: it was upsetting. Even the two seconds that I looked
Speaker 2: at him, it was just like, oh my god, there
Speaker 2: he is.
Speaker 5: Let's talk about sorry, let's talk about that three years,
Speaker 5: three years later, now two and a half more years later,
Speaker 5: and now this is the trial. James Holmes looks much different,
Speaker 5: not the orange hair. And you have photos in this book,
Speaker 5: some amazing photos, especially showing James the photo that he
Speaker 5: texted wanted people to think he was monavol with the
Speaker 5: possession lenses, and but later at court where he's looking
Speaker 5: bored and yawning.
Speaker 10: Yes, yes, that sort of goes along with this sort
Speaker 10: of non chalant persona that I saw when, for instance,
Speaker 10: when he failed this huge exam, most people.
Speaker 2: Would be upset, and he's just kind of like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I failed, you know, no problem. I think I'll just
Speaker 2: drop out. Yeah. It's like yawning at your murder trial
Speaker 2: and you're up for the death penalty.
Speaker 5: Yeah, tell us about this trial. I mean, he was
Speaker 5: up for one hundred and sixty five charges. They had
Speaker 5: this notebook, they had dueling psychiatrists, not so unusual psychiatrists
Speaker 5: for the defense to say he didn't know the difference
Speaker 5: between right and wrong. But there was a a psychiatrist
Speaker 5: that spent extensive time with him, almost twenty five hours.
Speaker 5: And Holmes not like unlike your session, he was not
Speaker 5: so reluctant to talk in some of those sessions.
Speaker 2: So right, right, he talked a fair amount more. And
Speaker 2: you know freely that he did this, that he had
Speaker 2: this strange idea of human capital, that he wanted to
Speaker 2: kill these folks so he could gain their human capital,
Speaker 2: and which you know, to a lot of us, we
Speaker 2: might think, well that sounds kind of insane. So why
Speaker 2: why did he not. Was he not judged to be insane.
Speaker 2: So the reason is he meticulously planned this out. So folks,
Speaker 2: when they're very psychotic, get quite confused. It can be
Speaker 2: hard for them to you know, make a meal, let
Speaker 2: alone plan out something like this, this mass murder. He
Speaker 2: knew exactly what he was doing. He knew and he
Speaker 2: admitted in some of these forensic interviews that the people
Speaker 2: he killed did not want to die, that they would have,
Speaker 2: you know, stopped him if they could have. He knew
Speaker 2: it was wrong that he not only was there a
Speaker 2: law against it, but like ethically he should not be
Speaker 2: doing this, So that all was the key. He just
Speaker 2: showed every sign that even though he had these strange,
Speaker 2: seeming like kind of psychotic ideas about human capital and such,
Speaker 2: he knew what he was doing. He was organized, He
Speaker 2: planned it out, He picked the theater, you know, he
Speaker 2: bought all this equipment. He went and he practiced at
Speaker 2: the shooting range, and you know, there just wasn't any
Speaker 2: sign that he was criminally insane. So he did not
Speaker 2: win his case, and then he was up for the
Speaker 2: death penalty, so he narrowly escaped the death penalty. There
Speaker 2: was just one dissenter who was sort of morally opposed
Speaker 2: to the state executing people and voted against it. But
Speaker 2: then the judge gave him the longest possible sense, and
Speaker 2: I think it's about the longest sence that's ever been
Speaker 2: handed down some three thousand years, so multiple, multiple life
Speaker 2: sentences he's serving.
Speaker 5: His life changed, obviously. You write about the victims, the
Speaker 5: twelve victims, and the people that appeared at the trial
Speaker 5: that gave statements, witness statements. You ask we talked about
Speaker 5: in the synopsis with the notebook, maybe we could have
Speaker 5: the answer of why why why? After all of this,
Speaker 5: your life changed as well, forever tell us how you
Speaker 5: adjusted or moved on and did you ever get to
Speaker 5: the why.
Speaker 2: So after the shooting, after a few weeks, I decided
Speaker 2: I was going to resign as the head of the
Speaker 2: student Mental Health Center, and even though the department thought
Speaker 2: I should stay there, just had become too complex and upsetting.
Speaker 2: So but since then, I've continued to work for the
Speaker 2: University of Colorado and the Apartment of Psychiatry. We have many,
Speaker 2: many psychiatric clinics, so I've worked in a number of them,
Speaker 2: and currently I'm doing telehealth a little bit of a
Speaker 2: lot less teaching than I used to do because that
Speaker 2: takes up so much time, and I decided to cut
Speaker 2: back my hours to part time, so I'm doing mostly
Speaker 2: direct patient care now. Really was just the support of
Speaker 2: my colleagues and friends and family that got me through
Speaker 2: this ordeal. And the fact that we had a number
Speaker 2: of experts look at the case and see if they
Speaker 2: thought I missed anything or there was anything else that
Speaker 2: possibly could have been done, and that they all came
Speaker 2: back and said no, they didn't see anything, and they
Speaker 2: thought I probably went above and beyond and some of
Speaker 2: the things I did after his last visit. As for why,
Speaker 2: I mean, it sort of defies any kind of logic
Speaker 2: or emotion of you know, why would a person care
Speaker 2: kill all these random people. I mean, they weren't even
Speaker 2: people that he was mad at, They didn't represent something
Speaker 2: he didn't like. It was just makes no kind of sense.
Speaker 2: He tries to explain it by this sort of psychotic
Speaker 2: idea of he's going to accrue their capital, which makes
Speaker 2: no sense at all. But we can expand it out
Speaker 2: a little further to some other killers. And we've got
Speaker 2: a couple cultural things going on which I think can
Speaker 2: be behind some of the acceleration of the mass shootings.
Speaker 2: One is that there are some spaces, mostly on the
Speaker 2: dark web, that actually celebrate this type of violence, and
Speaker 2: folks will study things like about the Columbine shooters and
Speaker 2: try to emulate them, and people, believe it or not,
Speaker 2: will actually encourage others to commit mass shootings and other
Speaker 2: types of violence. So I think that is one thing
Speaker 2: we're dealing with that is relatively new in our in
Speaker 2: the history of our country. The other thing is something
Speaker 2: called a threshold effect, which and for the threshold, so
Speaker 2: if there could be something that is so horrific that
Speaker 2: it doesn't even enter anyone's mind to do, like use
Speaker 2: a I don't know, nuclear bomb on your neighborhood or
Speaker 2: something like that, people they don't even consider it. But
Speaker 2: and it used to be mass shootings were one of
Speaker 2: those horrible, not considered things that sense Columbine. And then
Speaker 2: each time somebody commits one of these mass shootings, it
Speaker 2: becomes more thinkable, more possible. And so now young angry
Speaker 2: people who are blaming the rest of the world or
Speaker 2: perhaps a group of people for their personal problems in
Speaker 2: their mind, committing a mass shooting now becomes a possible act,
Speaker 2: and the more of these that occur, the more likely
Speaker 2: it is to pop into these people's heads that well,
Speaker 2: maybe I'll shoot up a place. First argument is, we
Speaker 2: don't have worse mental health than other similar countries, yet
Speaker 2: we've got, you know this, exponentially worse gun violence, these
Speaker 2: mass shootings. The other argument you can see a good
Speaker 2: example of in Holmes case, is that mental healthcare, although
Speaker 2: it's helpful for all kinds of things, including the other
Speaker 2: type of gun violence, which is suicide, mental health care
Speaker 2: will help for lots of things, but it's not going
Speaker 2: to help these mass shooters who blame their problems on
Speaker 2: other people and are about the last folks who would
Speaker 2: avail themselves of any treatment, even if it's free. And
Speaker 2: Holmes had, you know, all kinds of treatment, it was
Speaker 2: easily accessible. We offered to keep seeing them for free,
Speaker 2: he declined. But you can't treat hatred of people or wanting,
Speaker 2: you know, to commit a mass killing. That's not a
Speaker 2: mental illness. That's more of an anger and an ethical
Speaker 2: way oral problem, not something that we treat with for
Speaker 2: mental health providers.
Speaker 5: Not to get into this at all, but it is
Speaker 5: very interesting to see the ease that James Holmes was
Speaker 5: able to gain all of this look like military grade
Speaker 5: weaponry to enact his mission, his killer mission.
Speaker 2: Yes, online and in person, no impediments to that. You know,
Speaker 2: he had no criminal history. And another thing that bothers
Speaker 2: me is that he didn't have to get any kind
Speaker 2: of a weapon or a license. So when I did
Speaker 2: sort of break protocol and even talk to our campus
Speaker 2: police officer, it's not like she had a way that
Speaker 2: she could even tell that he was buying all these
Speaker 2: guns and ammo. So another point I think where we
Speaker 2: could change some rules and make it easier for folks
Speaker 2: who are concerned that somebody might be a danger to
Speaker 2: others to sort of check on them. Do they have weapons?
Speaker 2: Did they just get a license and they're planning to
Speaker 2: get them?
Speaker 5: Yeah? Incredible. I want to thank you very much doctor
Speaker 5: Lynn Fenton for coming on and talking about Aurora, the
Speaker 5: psychiatrist that treated the movie Theater Killer. Tell us her
Speaker 5: a story. Thank you so much for this interview, and
Speaker 5: you have a great evening.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. Good night, good night,