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Speaker 1: Jesse Jackson. You're welcome forward to Jesse Jackson's junior show

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and provoking their stay. We are in the worldhouse Jumping Max.

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Doctor Johnny Mack is a sociology in New York. A

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smaller practitioner with expertise and subje is a peace conflict,

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social change and movements. He has traveled extensively throughout the

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America's Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East, working in

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the fields of peace, development, conflict, and non violent social change.

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Doctor Max's seminal work After Confrontation Then what challenges the

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putative logic of non violent social change theory and practice. Particularly,

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he rearticulates non violence beyond the traditional understanding of non

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violent struggle as principally non violent resistance. He articulates non

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violence beyond the traditional understanding of non violent struggle as

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principally non violent resistance. Important subject matter. Doctor Max's research

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includes extensive study of Doctor King's logic of non violence

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as in the US Civil rights movement. He explicates Doctor

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King's logic of non violence using King's call to restructure

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the social edifice and particularly it's triple evils of poverty, racism,

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and militarism with a revolution of values that is affected

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through peaceable power. Doctor Mack, Welcome forward to the Jesse

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Jackson Junior Show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Jesse.

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Speaker 1: Glad to be here. It's always a pleasure. In this

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week where we have been commemorating the ninety seventh birthday

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what would have been the ninety seventh birthday of Martin

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Luther King Junior, we did turn our attention to beyond Vietnam.

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Vietnam a time to break the silence, and there we

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found obviously the triple evils of racism, militarism, and poverty. Johnny,

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for a few minutes and maybe even for a significant

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part of the show, I like to turn our attention

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to militarism. We've asked for more policing in our communities.

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I remember when I was in the third and fourth grade,

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Officer Friendly used to come to my class and he

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would bring tricks and magic tricks and some candy and

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nice old jolly Chicago police officer had a lot of jokes,

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just wonderful, almost like mister Ed mister Need from Boso Circus.

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He just brought that kind of demeanor. Of course, I've

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not seen the officer Friendly program in decades, because every

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cop these days must be on the streets. There's no

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more real community relations quite like visiting classrooms as law enforcement.

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Today's military between the body armor and the stun guns

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and the massive sophistication at the level of even a

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patrolman obviously necessary for the security of law enforcement and

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light of violent crime, but even the SWAT teams reflect

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used military equipment. That suggests, even on our nation's programming,

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that there is a militarized attitude with respect to the

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American people that the nation itself is willing to accept.

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And I'm thinking now that militarism isn't just what we

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do in Venezuela, or what we do in Greenland, or

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what we do around the world. We are so used

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to what we inflict upon people around the world that

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when it presents itself to us as Americans in the

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form of warrantless searches by ice, half the population are

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saying at this hour that they're okay with it. Johnny,

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That's a problem from my perspective.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Jesse, it is a problem. It's a problem among

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a plethora of problems that we must understand, and too

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many of us don't understand Jesse was intrigued by the

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last hours conversation with a Tiba. Really an important discussion

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that the two of you are having, and it speaks

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to this problem that you're now raising, how we have

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used the monopoly of power, which is what or how

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we define a state its sovereignty, and it's monopoly on power,

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excuse yes, and monopoly on force. Internally, Jesse, as you know,

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that monopoly on force is pretty much what we call policing,

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and externally, that monopoly on force has been worrying or militarism.

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What is interesting in this dispensation at this time in

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the twenty first century, we find the script flipped where

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we're using that external monopoly internally which is anathema to

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the founding principles of our nation. And how is that possible?

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And even Jesse, as you point out, it's being accepted

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by too many of us as citizens of the nation.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm Jesse Jackson listening to Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

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When we come forward more with Johnny Mack, We're going

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to have a deep conversation about the triple evils racism, militarism,

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and materialism. We're going to hang around militarism a little

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while longer more will we come forward? On KBLA Talk

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to the Junior show, I was looking for a quote

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by Martin Luther King Junior about studying war no more.

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And if we continue to study war, Johnny, we become

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what we study. If I study physics, I become a physicist.

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If I become if I study math, I can become

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a mathematician. If I study history, I can become a historian.

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But if I spend all of my time studying war,

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studying the Second Amendment and everyone's right to a gun

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and the right to just you know, shoot people at

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random or run into a schoolhouse with mental health crises

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and take my my if we study war, we become

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what we study. And part of doctor King's revolution of

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values is that he wants us to study war no more, Johnny, militarism, Johnny,

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I think you're muted.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, Jesse. Fantastic point. And in his last book we've

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talked about on several occasions, where do we go from here?

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It it manages us to study war no more, for sure,

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But more importantly in that book, it manashes us to

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study nonviolence in all its forms, and how we can

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use it as a tool of liberation, as a tool

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of integration, as a tool for social change and human development.

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And I think that's what we're missing, you know, Jesse,

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we've talked about previously. What you've just said is what

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I like to think of as the human nature. And

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I've mentioned this before. Human beings are what the what

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the academics might call tereleological in nature. We move toward

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what we think about. Why am I raising this not

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to sound academically profound, but to point out what you

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were discussing with the table once again in the last hour.

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We talk about racism. We talk about these these matters

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often because it's driven by the media itself, and we

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were very often spoon fed with things that the powers

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that be want us to focus on, rather than breaking

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those change and those those limitations, and being guided and

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directed by memes and and and what's the term I

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want the algorithms? Uh? In today's current technology that drives

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our thinking and keeps us from really assessing what is

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our challenge today? And more importantly, Jesse, what we must

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do about it? M hm and and and not only

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what we must do about it, but how we must

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do about it the things we must do, And I

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think that that's what TV was trying to get at

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the close of your discussion with him. It's such an

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important What are the things that are available to us today?

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How do we overcome poverty, racism, and militarism or their roots?

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Remember Jesse that we describe the roots of poverty, racism,

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and militarism as bigotry, violent rivalry, and cupidity or greed.

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So racism is not merely a term that stands alone

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by itself, but it is something much larger.

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Speaker 1: There's only so much time that I have left at

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age sixty, and others have even less time. So how

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do I address poverty? What is the best way to

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address poverty? For me? In a single stroke, it is

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a tax structure that meets basic human needs of equal

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high quality. Just basic human needs. Some need high quality healthcare, decent, safe,

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affordable housing for all as guaranteed rights, the right to

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breathe fresh air. Doesn't get much more humane than that.

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How about a minimum high quality floor beneath which no

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American can fall? And what is the best position I

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can be in or anyone can be in to guarantee

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as doctor King I believe would suggest a minimum high

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quality floor of human existence. So I say we have

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to reform national tax policy, that we have to reach

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the barrios and the hamlets of the nation. And that's

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the mountain top view, because the valley view is that

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we need a floor. The valley view and there's a

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mountain top view. Now, it seems to me that tax

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policy is a factor in doctor King's message when we

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look at the skewed nature of where the nation's wealth

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and income is going, and why people in the bottom

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third or the bottom fifth of the nation can't get

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health care or even need an Affordable Care Act. In

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the first place, they work already, they have jobs, and

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they can't afford healthcare. They get high premiums if they

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don't have the Affordable Care Act. That means that they

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work every day, but they can't afford healthcare with but

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for the Affordable Care Act. People working one, two and

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three jobs needing a supplemental nutrition assistance program in the

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first place is a problem. At the end of three jobs,

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you can't get some knee. That's a problem. That is

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a systemic problem that must be addressed, not one state

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at a time, not one city, at a time, not

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one hamlet at a time, but by the national government

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which is in which is not in a position at

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this hour to even come close to fulfilling that mission. Johnny, Yes, Jesse, So.

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Speaker 2: You've mentioned an important inegal part of the social structure

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that drives in many respects whether there is poverty or

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non and who lives in poverty. You've mentioned that poverty

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is a function of tax policy, and policy is a

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function of governing. Indeed, that is, Jesse, a component of

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the social structure. But there are also two other components

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of the social structure. That's the market as well as

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civil society. What roles do they play. I would agree

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with you that tax policy is important in defining what

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levels of poverty this nation or any nation, particularly in

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a capitalist society, might have. But what about development, what

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about the market? What about a participation in the economy,

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full participation, what about economic opportunity? They also those elements

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of the social structure have as much And I would argue, Jesse,

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here even more to do with who lives in poverty

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and who does not than does tax policy.

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Speaker 1: So tax policy.

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Speaker 2: Is incredibly important, indeed, but so is full participation in

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the economic structure of our capitalist society.

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Speaker 1: So I appreciate that because I watched Jesse Jackson take

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many Black people to Wall Street and make the argument

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for participation in that very capital system. You're gonna hear

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some critique of me and my dad in this. I've

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also walked Reverend Al Sharpton take black people, black businesses

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demanding participation as minority contractors to Wall Street. And I've

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seen the Urban League essentially build its organization around the

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corporate elite and structure demanding African American participation. But I'm

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raising doctor King's point. In nineteen fifty four, the Dow

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Jones Industrial average that measured how the economy was functioning.

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By the way, that average four h four did not

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include black fox black women, they lived in a separate,

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unequal society that was probably not covered by the Dow

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Jones Industrial average. By and large, the market was taking

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off on its own. By the hour of doctor King's death,

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the market was at nine to fifty six. Less than

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one thousand was the Dow Jones Industrial average. At the

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beginning of the Reagan administration, the Dow Jones Industrial average

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was around seven thousand and points. At the end of

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the Obama administration, with all of the hope that even

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my brother Artiba was talking about, the Dow Jones Industrial

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Average was still leaving millions of people behind, even with

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the great contributions of the of the Man of hope himself,

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Barack Obama, Even at the Dow Jones in nineteen thousand.

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Today the Dow Jones Industrial Average is at forty nine

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thousand and growing. Trump's jerking tariffs around and jerking the

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world around. But what happens when the Dow Jones Industrial

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average chows a system that is so intricately tied to

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artificial intelligence, to robotics, to more and more industries becoming

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more and more efficient to turn a profit where it

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doesn't need people any longer. That means the market is

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no longer bound by the constitution. It's something that functions

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over here and out of space, outside of the rule

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of law, with no capacity to provide healthcare, housing, education,

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because tax policy doesn't extract from the progress of the

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marketplace and deliver tranquility to the American people. So there

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is a tipping point, and I'm gonna preach this until

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I'm blue in the face. There is a tipping point

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here where the government itself is now under Kennedy staying

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that listen, no one needs to be vaccinated. Let's just

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catch a disease and let the population itself dwindle on

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its own. Let's stop taking care of seniors. They gonna

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die anyway. Why should we be paying the Social Security

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Let's stop all these minority programs. Let these negro shoot themselves.

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We don't care so that the market concludes that we

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are not necessary. And I don't find anything about market

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economics that supports that human agenda. And I'd like to

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think that I'm a capitalist, but let me tell you

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where I really am. I'm not a democratic socialist, although

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I think Jesus probably would be. But I'm certainly a

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person who believes that every American deserves certain rights in

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the Constitution so that they can exact from the Constitution

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and from America the highest possible standard of living possible

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for them. And I think that I too, achieved doctor

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Greening's dream without being called a socialist, without being called

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a communist, without being called anything but an American. If

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we just amend our way out of the problem in

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the direction of human.

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Speaker 2: Rights, yeah, you'll get no argument from me. There Jesse,

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and you are, I think, arguing that not only has

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our social policies changed, but our economic structure has changed fundamentally,

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and it has changed in ways that Ai and we've

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talked about this before. Blockchain and quantum computing eliminates the

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need for labor, for the labor intensive economy that we

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found in the mid twentieth century industrial economy, and so yes,

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even a tax policy Jesse, under that system becomes significantly

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irrelevant if, after all, all production, essentially or the preponderance

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of production is done robotically. Who then works, what then

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creates the value which then will be distributed, and how

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will it be distributed. I'm not sure that that's a

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tax policy issue. I'm not sure anybody knows what kind

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of issue it.

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Speaker 1: Is just yet.

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Speaker 2: And that's part of the discussion that we must have

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as a nation in the world.

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Speaker 1: I am, I am.

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Speaker 3: I am deeply trouble that America at this hour, I'm

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losing confidence of this how as to whether or not

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I've asked my people to integrate into a house that's burning.

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I am profoundly concerned about America.

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Speaker 1: That's exactly where I am. I'm right there with doctor

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King on that I know it so well I can

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hum it in my sleep, almost in its intonations. That

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has a problem, and it's not being addressed by the market.

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It's not being addressed by the moral fiber of our politics.

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It's not speaking out and for the least of these

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in our nation. I mean, I'm looking at so much

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money coming in to these political campaigns that no wonder

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the voices of our leaders are singing and blowing uncertain

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tunes get elected. You know, man, I haven't raised three

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hundred thousand dollars in my campaign, but do you know

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how much money people are spending in these campaigns. I

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mean I had to be in a campaign to figure

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out just how much money they're spending in campaigns. This

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is democracy, This is ridiculous. I think money all day

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long to get elected is outrageous. And everybody wants something

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for the money. Everybody they do.

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Speaker 2: Jesse, We're going to have to come forward here in

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a minute, but I sure want to pick up.

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Speaker 1: We got done here. I'm thank you. Johnny More on

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Kbilly Talk fifteen to eighty when we come forward with

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doctor Johnny Mack, doctor mac and Fiscal Year nineteen fifty

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four National Security programs dominated. Military spending consumed about seventy

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three percent of the federal budget, totaling approximately fifty seven

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point three billion dollars the year nineteen fifty four when

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Brown versus the Board of Education is decided. Today, the

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US military budget for fiscal year twenty twenty six is

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set at approximately eight hundred and thirty nine billion dollars,

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a bipartisan agreement reached by the House and the Senate

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appropriators in January of twenty twenty six, and now Donald

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Trump proposes a military budget for fiscal year twenty twenty

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seven that exceeds a trillion dollars. I am suggesting to

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you and our listeners that the Dow Jones Industrial average

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also follows the history of race in America. Well, it

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follows everything, because every one of us wakes up every day.

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Are we better off today than we were yesterday? Since

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we think that way, since those are our values. But

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today the economy itself is driven by the military budget,

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the millions of corporations and contractors who keep the beast

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of the mill military machine moving so much so that

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this beast has to be fed. It has to be

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fed with more oil. The largest polluter in the world.

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Is the US military more pollution than most states and

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some countries the US military, that's just how much diesel

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and oil and gas we pump into the environment protecting

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and defending the nation. Climate change directly tied to the

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United States government willing to lower carbon emissions and its

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carbon footprint. That's just how large it is threatening the

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planet itself. But nineteen fifty four a military budget of

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fifty seven billion dollars and in twenty twenty six eight

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hundred and thirty nine billion dollars, while we're closing schools,

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property taxes are high, people can't afford to go to college,

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people struggling to get healthcare, and some folks trying to

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find something to eat. Johnny Mack, well, you know, Jesse.

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Speaker 2: In nineteen fifty four, the global population was around four

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billion people, well three billion actually in nineteen fifty four,

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and today it's almost nine billion, three times. The world

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has changed significantly, hasn't it. So we moved from fifty

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seven billion in US military budget to eight hundred and

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thirty nine billion, and so that sets up priorities, doesn't it?

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Really real changes. The populations change and the values change

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as well. But the fundamental values that drive the military

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budget also drives the conversation we were having in the last segment,

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and that's our market and those value use are the

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ones we we we mentioned their bigotry and uh and

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rivalry and greed, and how do we protect, how do

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we defend how do we ensure the status quo of

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that bigotry, rivalry and greed or cupidity. We do it

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through our military or our control over the monopoly over

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power or force or violence. Again internally through policing and

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externally through the military budget. So that explained, That explains

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I think, in large part Jesse, your point about a

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military budget that's nearly a trillion dollars now.

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Speaker 1: And and it's it's it's not just that, it's that

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the blue chip stocks that each of us as Americans

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invest in for our retirement programs, our pensions, our iras,

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investing in drone technology, investing in IE, investing in robotics,

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our value systems are what we are investing in. We

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are investing in war. And doctor King wasn't just challenging Vietnam.

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He was challenging the conveniences that we enjoyed here in America,

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in my home and in your home as directly tied

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to our willingness to invest for higher profits on the market.

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But he said, I can't negate the fact that the

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helicopters that are dropping napalm on these poor peasants in

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Vietnam are paid for by investments made by the American

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people to fuel the military economy.

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Speaker 2: M yeah, yeah, But Jesse, keep in mind, I'm not

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quite sure that King said quite the way. I think

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I'm understanding you to say it, because the average American

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struggling from paycheck to paycheck is not invested in the

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stock market's you know, I'm eighty percent of the stock

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market is controlled by the super wealthy incorporations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Americans has gone off and left us. I think

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that's no doubt that I don't have a stock yet,

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I don't have an ir right, it is gone off

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and left us. We're over here, paycheck to paycheck, disability

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to check, disability check, whatever it is, you know, whalefare

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check to whalefare check. That's where we are.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, and Jesse, what the average American is invested in?

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If there is an average American, I'm not sure that

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I agree with that definition. But let's use it for

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the same think of our our discussion. What that average

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American is invested in is supporting that very system that

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we are criticizing, that very system that allows one tenth

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of one percent of the population to own sixty percent

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of its wealth, and yet we the people, that very

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population that we're discussing supports it.

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Speaker 1: How would you remedy that other than through tax policy.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you remedied through through tax policy at all,

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because I don't think, as we said in the last segment,

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that tax policy will survive the way we know it today,

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given the trajectory of how wealth is being generated, not

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being generated through the through the sweat of you know,

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of the brows of the ordinary citizen, as your father

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and my father's generation understood in the mid twentieth century,

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or even as we grew up, Jesse. The economy is

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changing and we must change with it. What we haven't

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studied is how to change it. So I'm not suggesting

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that you're wrong about tax policy. I am suggesting that

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we don't know enough about the current trajectory of our

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economy to understand what that change must be. But we

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do know it must change.

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Speaker 1: I am I'm right there with you. I just think

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that the change is statutory. It can't be done state

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by state. It has to be the collective. There is

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a role for the federal government in that process. The

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way most members of Congress think, and particularly the progressives

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in Congress, they would like a progressive tax structure. They

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would like to go where and get the money from

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where they went. That's what my father used to say

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in nineteen eighty four when he was running where you're

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gonna get the money from? Just I'm going to get

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the money from where the money went. The money went

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over here to the wealthiest one percent of the nation,

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So we got to go over there and get it,

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and we get it and bring it back over here.

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It's not like we hold a gun to their head.

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We simply hold tax policy to their head. We tax

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the various forms by which they shelter and pass that

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kind of wealth on generationally that is no longer circulating

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in the American economy and benefiting the American people. I'm

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00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:36,319
Jesse Jackson, Junior more on KBLA Talk fifteen eighty When

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00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:39,279
we come forward, we're listening to Johnny Mack. I'm Jesse Jackson,

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00:29:39,319 --> 00:29:43,200
Junior Working Ford to Jesse Junior Show on January twenty

405
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:47,240
sixth at six pm PT, nine pm ET and eight

406
00:29:47,279 --> 00:29:52,160
pm CT. I'm going to Tavistalks dot Com. Put my

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00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,160
phone right up next to this QR code, which I

408
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,559
did earlier today, and I became the three hundred and

409
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,319
seventy sixth person who will be sitting in class learn

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00:30:00,319 --> 00:30:05,720
how to do interviews and the Art of conversation based

411
00:30:05,759 --> 00:30:11,160
upon the tips that the brilliant Tavis Smiley offers us

412
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,000
in his new six course series Courses with Tavis The

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00:30:16,119 --> 00:30:18,559
Art of Conversation. I hope all of you will be

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00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,559
able to join us. January twenty sixth at six PMPT,

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00:30:22,799 --> 00:30:25,599
nine pm ET and eight PMCT. Johnny Mack, Welcome forward

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00:30:25,599 --> 00:30:26,920
to the Jesse Jackson Junior Show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Jesse.

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Speaker 1: Good to be here, Johnny, as spirited as spirited a

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conversation as it gets the one we've been having been

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having today. Your thoughts on how the militarism angle actually

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interacts with poverty, the nation's priorities, and racism. How does

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militarism affect the racism dynamic in Doctor King's Triple Evils?

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Speaker 2: Well, Jesse, the three These three fundamental King, as you say,

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called the triple evils or the underlying values that organize

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what I've called the social structure, and they are mutually reinforcing,

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that is, each reinforces the other. So just in that

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very simple formula, these triple evils, these three values helped

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to sustain the status quo. And so the military policing

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are used in order to ensure that people fall in

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line with the very two things that you argued in

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our previous sessions, statutory and constitutional rights as they are

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interpreted by those who are in power. They are enforced

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as we've seen in Chicago and Detroit and in various

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communities across the country. They're enforced militarily, they're enforced through policing.

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They're enforced now through new forms of exercising that power,

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that that monopoly on power, through something called ice and

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through something called the border patrol. And these forms of

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control helped to again to sustain the status quo.

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Speaker 1: Right. I'm struggling, Johnny with when doctor King says in

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Beyond Vietnam, and I think paragraph number five, how the

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very resources or programs that he thought might work in

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the direction of ending poverty, that those resources are now

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being shifted to Vietnam. And Johnson was profoundly concerned because

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the commitment was to the war on poverty. And he said,

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but now the Congress was pinching pennies essentially and sending

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those resources to Vietnam. He saw the same budget, but

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he saw that it was not feeding people around the table,

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that a large piece of the pie was now killing

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people in Vietnam.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the opportunity cause, right, if you spend it

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on A, you can't spend it on B. Right, if

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you give it to Peter, you can't give it to Paul.

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The question is how do Peter Paul baby?

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Speaker 1: And and you.

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Speaker 2: Know that's what King I think was trying to call

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our attention to until Yes, too much of our national

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budget is given toward the military. And the second one, Jesse,

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is interest, that is the national debt. These two are

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the most resource sapping elements of our national economy, taking

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away from so many of US citizens at the benefit

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of sustaining the status quo.

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Speaker 1: Johnny, how can we help your program and support your work?

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00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:30,599
Speaker 2: World House Project th World Houseproject, the World Houseproject dot org.

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There you can find our work and you can contribute

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00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:38,079
to the World House Project on our website, the World

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00:34:38,119 --> 00:34:39,400
Houseproject dot org.

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Speaker 1: Johnny, we have about three minutes before we come forward

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your word of hope.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, Jesse, I was thinking about this, and

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you know I was watching the President's presentation at Dovels.

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Speaker 1: Of course, you didn't call it a speech.

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Speaker 2: This presentation at doubles, And while we were all struck,

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I'm sure in various ways of what he said, Jesse,

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I was struck by what I saw incredibly important platform

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with who's who of the globe right there. But in

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that hall, Jesse, on that platform, I didn't seen anybody

477
00:35:32,199 --> 00:35:35,679
look like you and me, or any of our cousins,

478
00:35:36,559 --> 00:35:39,559
none of our brothers and sisters, none of our parents.

479
00:35:39,639 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 1: I saw.

480
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 2: No one engaged in that conversation. And so my message

481
00:35:47,039 --> 00:35:51,519
of hope, Jesse, I'd rather call it a message of hoping.

482
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,039
I'm just hoping that we, all of us, you and

483
00:35:58,119 --> 00:36:01,360
I are brothers and sisters, as all of our cousins,

484
00:36:02,199 --> 00:36:05,440
whichever side of the water that pond, as we call it,

485
00:36:06,199 --> 00:36:12,000
they live, we find the solidarity to come together. If

486
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,599
we don't do for ourselves, it's clear no one's going

487
00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:19,320
to do for us. And I'm hoping, Jesse, that in

488
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,239
this critical time we find a way to come together

489
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,599
once and for all. Maybe we need our own novels.

490
00:36:29,039 --> 00:36:33,920
I'm hoping that we'll find that way.

491
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,119
Speaker 1: How profound the words are drowning that you offer, and

492
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:42,360
in this reflection, to join your reflection. I can't but

493
00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:46,199
help but think that a large game is being played

494
00:36:46,199 --> 00:36:49,320
at this hour, where the world itself is being divided up.

495
00:36:50,639 --> 00:36:53,159
Black and brown brothers and sisters around the world are

496
00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:57,719
not players in that equation. Decisions are being made about

497
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,559
us and for us at the highest level of governments

498
00:37:00,599 --> 00:37:03,840
around the world, largely based upon the color of the

499
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,320
skin of the nations that are participating, whether it's Canada, Greenland,

500
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,840
Europe and Vladimir Putin. You're right, there were no Africans there.

501
00:37:12,199 --> 00:37:15,440
There were no South Americans there. I'm Jesse Jackson Junior.

502
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,280
You've been listening to the Jesse Jackson Junior show The

503
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,119
World House with Johnny mack More. When we come forward

504
00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:23,760
tomorrow on that Meat Fridays with Gina Towns on kb

505
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,239
LA Talk fifteen eighty