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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to. Later with Moe Kelly on Demand from

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<v Speaker 1>KFI A M six.

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<v Speaker 2>Forty Nature Kelly Mark talks about pontificates about pop culture,

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<v Speaker 2>Ron and Report with Mark Ronner.

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<v Speaker 3>KFI AM six fortyears later with mo Kelly. Let's get

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<v Speaker 3>to Mark Ronner and the Runner Report.

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<v Speaker 4>All right. I was reading the book about the Manson

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<v Speaker 4>killings called Chaos by Tom O'Neill, and he was on

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<v Speaker 4>my shirt list of people to invite as a guest

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<v Speaker 4>whenever I filled in again as host, if that ever

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<v Speaker 4>happens again. I'd always been interested in that stuff. And

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<v Speaker 4>before I moved to La I was visiting and a

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<v Speaker 4>friend drove me to where the house on Clo was

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<v Speaker 4>where Sharon Tate and the others were murdered, just because

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<v Speaker 4>he knew I'd like that. I wasn't finished with the

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<v Speaker 4>Chaos book. The library yanked it from me on my

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<v Speaker 4>iPad because it was do we're living in the future,

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<v Speaker 4>then I see Chaos. The Manson Murders is a documentary

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<v Speaker 4>on Netflix and directed by Errol Morris. No Less, no

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<v Speaker 4>Brainer front of the line. Here is the trailer.

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<v Speaker 5>It's one of the scariest true stories out there. Eight

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<v Speaker 5>and a half month pregnant, beautiful woman getting stabbed to death.

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<v Speaker 5>Manson was able to gain control of his followers, but

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<v Speaker 5>he could get them to go out and kill on

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<v Speaker 5>command without remorse. How did he learn how to brainwash

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<v Speaker 5>those kids and turn them into monsters?

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<v Speaker 1>These people were on LSD.

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<v Speaker 5>Manson was preaching all the time Race wars.

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<v Speaker 4>The murder was okay.

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<v Speaker 1>When a story did start.

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<v Speaker 4>To emerge, it was managed very carefully.

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<v Speaker 5>To manage and manipulate it. I know that what we

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<v Speaker 5>were told isn't what happened. Were these research sciences You

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<v Speaker 5>were working secretly for the government.

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<v Speaker 2>One of the most bi itself in CIA history.

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<v Speaker 5>Plant of false memories and people without their awareness.

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<v Speaker 4>My was.

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<v Speaker 2>Manson was really into mind control and I'm underessting what

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<v Speaker 2>I was doing. You just mentally difference.

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<v Speaker 5>Manson became exactly what the CIA was trying to create.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, you're suggesting your Manson was a puppet. Now, Morris

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<v Speaker 4>won an oscar for the Fog of War back in

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<v Speaker 4>two thousand and four, and if you haven't seen that,

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<v Speaker 4>you're in for a treat. He's also done the Thin

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<v Speaker 4>Blue Line. And none of this is dull homework stuff.

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<v Speaker 4>It's totally absorbing. Morris is seventy seven now, and not

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<v Speaker 4>only has he not lost a step, but Chaos is

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<v Speaker 4>such an immersive documentary that it really added layers to

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<v Speaker 4>my understanding of this Manson case. And I wish it

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<v Speaker 4>had been twice as long. It's just ninety six minutes.

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<v Speaker 4>You could fit like two and a half of them

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<v Speaker 4>into one brutalist. If you're like me, you've gone to

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<v Speaker 4>sleep plenty of time with true crime documentaries on TV

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<v Speaker 4>because they're soothing, and the guys with the deep voices

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<v Speaker 4>are also very soothing to listen to while they're talking

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<v Speaker 4>about horrific stuff. But you're not dozen off during this

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<v Speaker 4>documentary with the graphics and the editing. This like documentary

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<v Speaker 4>adderall we know. The Tate LaBianca killings back in nineteen

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<v Speaker 4>sixty nine were so horrifying that they more or less

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<v Speaker 4>ended the Swinging sixties, and they had an effect similar

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<v Speaker 4>to what I understand about the Charles Starkweather killing spree

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<v Speaker 4>a decade before that. People were freaked out and scared.

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<v Speaker 4>Maybe you loved Quentin Tarantinos once upon a time in

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<v Speaker 4>Hollywood like I did, for giving us the fantasy ending

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<v Speaker 4>we wished for a lot like the one in Inglorious Bastards.

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<v Speaker 4>Here's a spoiler, they smoke Hitler. Chaos does a thorough

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<v Speaker 4>and like I indicated, a hyperactive job of explaining who

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<v Speaker 4>everyone was, where they were, how they were related to

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<v Speaker 4>each other. The thing just barely stopped short of showing

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<v Speaker 4>charts with red strings showing who gave each other chlamydia.

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<v Speaker 4>It's extremely thorough. If you've read Helter Skelter, the Chaos

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<v Speaker 4>book and documentary are a whole different ballgame in that

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<v Speaker 4>it sort of craps all over Helter Skelter and Vincent Boliosi,

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<v Speaker 4>the Manson prosecutor who wrote it or co wrote it

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<v Speaker 4>or had a ghost written that was the all time

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<v Speaker 4>best selling true crime book. I wouldn't say I knew

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<v Speaker 4>or was friends with Buliosi, but I interviewed him around

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<v Speaker 4>two thousand and eight for his book called The Prosecution

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<v Speaker 4>of George W. Bush for Murder. Whatever you want to

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<v Speaker 4>say about the guy, he had balls roughly the size

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<v Speaker 4>of the Goodyear Blimp. In twenty twenty five, not a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of people are going to argue that our invasion

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<v Speaker 4>of Iraq was righteous or had anything to do with

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<v Speaker 4>the nine to eleven attack. It's an objective, non partisan

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<v Speaker 4>fact at this point, and if you got a problem

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<v Speaker 4>with it, go pick an argument with a historian. Not me,

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<v Speaker 4>but back in two thousand and eight putting out a

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<v Speaker 4>book about prosecuting a president for lying US into a

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<v Speaker 4>war and the American soldiers who died from that, let's

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<v Speaker 4>just say that it took some nerve. In fact, it

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<v Speaker 4>got him blackballed from national media. If you look at

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<v Speaker 4>the reception section for the book on Wikipedia, that's blank.

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<v Speaker 4>The guy who wrote the all time best selling true

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<v Speaker 4>crime book gets shut out of national media. And I

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<v Speaker 4>was the only person in major media at the time,

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<v Speaker 4>at the Seattle Times, in fact, to give him some ink.

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<v Speaker 4>And it involves sticking my own neck out a little bit.

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<v Speaker 4>I found boog Leosi to be sharp and impressive, not

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<v Speaker 4>just in the interview, but throughout the process that goes

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<v Speaker 4>with that stuff, the follow ups, the fact checks. It's

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<v Speaker 4>not like just sitting down for a tight five with

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<v Speaker 4>Jimmy Kimmel. It's an exhaustive quality control process, and you

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<v Speaker 4>don't really get it with a blog these days. After

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<v Speaker 4>the interview, finally Ran Bugliosi came to the old Seattle

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<v Speaker 4>Times Building to thank me and shake my hand in person,

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<v Speaker 4>which was one of those solid old school marks of class.

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<v Speaker 4>I really liked him. Now, to be clear, this isn't

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<v Speaker 4>some rambling bragathon about somebody famous I had a connection with.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm admitting to you how naive I was, and how

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<v Speaker 4>this new documentary and book have caused me to rethink

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<v Speaker 4>that whole scenario. Try to imagine how gobsmacked I was

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<v Speaker 4>reading Tom O'Neil's Chaos and watching the Morris Dots documentary

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<v Speaker 4>to be told that Bugliosi may have fudged some stuff

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<v Speaker 4>to shape the Manson story how he wanted it, and

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<v Speaker 4>the real story was likely different and larger. And what

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<v Speaker 4>that book goes into that the documentary doesn't is Bugliosi's

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<v Speaker 4>back and forth with O'Neil, which gets a little nuts

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<v Speaker 4>as O'Neil comes back to him with information that doesn't

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<v Speaker 4>add up about the Manson case and Bugliosi gets increasingly

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<v Speaker 4>bent out of shape. Now he's not around to defend himself.

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<v Speaker 4>He's gone, so I guess O'Neil gets the last word.

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<v Speaker 4>But O'Neil makes a compelling case at the very least

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<v Speaker 4>that Bugliosi was mainly interested in making himself a star

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<v Speaker 4>and then protecting his legacy. There's lots more in the

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<v Speaker 4>documentary that I'll point out but not completely spoil. One

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<v Speaker 4>thing is how close Manson was to break an into

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<v Speaker 4>the music industry and maybe becoming a star. You heard

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<v Speaker 4>a snippet of his singing in the trailer. One of

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<v Speaker 4>the Beach Boys was very involved with the Manson family,

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<v Speaker 4>Dennis Wilson. He died in nineteen eighty three, so I

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<v Speaker 4>guess O'Neil gets the last word on him too. But

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<v Speaker 4>some of Manson's music is played in the documentary, and

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<v Speaker 4>it almost pains me to say this. It ain't terrible,

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<v Speaker 4>It's of its time, and this drives home the concept

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<v Speaker 4>that things could have easily gone the other way for

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<v Speaker 4>him and lots of others around him. Something else O'Neil

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<v Speaker 4>gets into, which a surviving prosecutor disagrees with, is a

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<v Speaker 4>possible connection with Manson an MK Ultra, which was essentially

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<v Speaker 4>a CIA mind control program. How did Charlie go from

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<v Speaker 4>being a somewhat charismatic X con loser who nobody really

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<v Speaker 4>took seriously back in the hate Ashbury district to a

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<v Speaker 4>cult leader who could make women and men do anything

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<v Speaker 4>for him, including killing. Maybe it wasn't just the riz.

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<v Speaker 4>How did Manson get so many breaks from the cops

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<v Speaker 4>when he was on parole when they should have violated

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<v Speaker 4>his ass several times over. I don't know how much

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<v Speaker 4>I buy into the mk ultra angle, or even how

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<v Speaker 4>much Morris does as a filmmaker. He strikes some new

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<v Speaker 4>ground out himself and talks to people. It's not just

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<v Speaker 4>the straight adaptation of the book, but this is all

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<v Speaker 4>laid out plausibly, and I didn't feel like I was

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<v Speaker 4>listening to the babblings of some crank telling me that say,

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<v Speaker 4>breast milk is better than vaccines and science. This stuff

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<v Speaker 4>has lots of resonance in the present day, not specifically Mchaeltra,

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<v Speaker 4>but the way certain people can get their followers to

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<v Speaker 4>become radicalized and do what you and I might consider

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<v Speaker 4>to be the unthinkable. Based on my observation, people don't

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<v Speaker 4>need to be coerced. Now. There's plenty of footage of

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<v Speaker 4>Manson's family members then and later in their lives, and

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<v Speaker 4>that stuff is chilling to me. True believers who don't

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<v Speaker 4>blink when they talk to you when they speak, it's

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<v Speaker 4>in this patient, serene, even condescending voice while they're saying

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<v Speaker 4>things that are utterly deranged more than a half century ago,

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<v Speaker 4>but relevant now. Even if you don't have cable TV.

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<v Speaker 4>I am not a conspiracy whack job, and you don't

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<v Speaker 4>need to one hundred percent buy into everything you watch.

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<v Speaker 4>But this chaos documentary on Netflix is even more worth

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<v Speaker 4>your time than a trip to buy a horse paste

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<v Speaker 4>for your COVID MO. So it was compelling. It makes

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<v Speaker 4>a compelling argument. Is that fair to say? Very absorbing?

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<v Speaker 4>And O'Neil himself admitst some things where he doesn't have

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<v Speaker 4>conclusive evidence. I think the thing raises more questions than

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<v Speaker 4>it answers. But it's interesting stuff and it's not just

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<v Speaker 4>it's not like that UFO show with the guy with

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<v Speaker 4>the wild hair. What is that Ancient Aliens? Yes, ancient

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<v Speaker 4>alien I mean some of that stuff can be fun,

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<v Speaker 4>but I think this is serious and it's extraordinarily well crafted,

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<v Speaker 4>well put together.

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<v Speaker 3>In fact, I'm going to take you up on that,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'm going to watch it this weekend on a

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<v Speaker 3>strength of your review and recommendation.

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<v Speaker 4>You got to tell me what you think of it.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm really curious to see people's reactions. It doesn't have raves.

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<v Speaker 4>The last time I looked on Rotten Tomatoes, it was

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<v Speaker 4>somewhere down around to sixty five, and I just don't

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<v Speaker 4>understand that.

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<v Speaker 3>Possibly because you and I are old enough to kind

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<v Speaker 3>of remember the evolution of the whole Manson saga. Even

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<v Speaker 3>though it happened right around when we were born, Manson

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<v Speaker 3>was still a resonant figure in popular culture for a

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<v Speaker 3>long time after that.

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<v Speaker 4>It was a major pop culture touch stone, and so

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<v Speaker 4>was Helter Skelter Yes, and the Beatles album that Manson

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<v Speaker 4>got that from. He was a huge Beatles fan. The

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<v Speaker 4>whole thing is really interesting, and one of the people was,

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<v Speaker 4>I believe Doris Day's sun interesting rabbit hole to go down.

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Later with Moe Kelly on demand from

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<v Speaker 1>KFI AM six forty