WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.800 --> 00:00:05.679 Cool. It's the Opperman Report. 2 00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:10.119 Join digital forensic investigator and PI at Opperman for an 3 00:00:10.119 --> 00:00:14.759 in depth discussion of conspiracy theories, strategy of New World 4 00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:19.399 Order resistance, hi profile court cases in the news, and 5 00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:23.920 interviews with expert guests and authors on these topics and more. 6 00:00:24.480 --> 00:00:30.960 It's the Opperman Report, and now here is Investigator at Opperman. 7 00:00:36.159 --> 00:00:39.240 Okay, welcome to the Opperaman Report. I'm your host, Private 8 00:00:39.280 --> 00:00:41.560 Investigator at Opperman, and this show is brought to you 9 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:46.479 by pscoco dot com. That's pscoc a dot com. That's 10 00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:50.799 Phoebe Sod's chocolate website. Phoebe Sod is an independent curator 11 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:54.479 with the Coco Exchange. 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And we all love our 22 00:01:25.719 --> 00:01:29.040 Martinez here at the Opperaman Report. Now, if you wish 23 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:31.719 to treat yourself or someone you'll love to a sweet 24 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:34.799 and tasty gift, then the Cocoa Exchange is the brand 25 00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:37.680 for you. You go to pscoco dot com and you 26 00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:39.959 click on the shop now button and you can shop 27 00:01:40.040 --> 00:01:43.120 right now while you're listening to the show and put 28 00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:45.400 in your order. It'll come in the mail and a 29 00:01:45.400 --> 00:01:49.760 couple of days you have a whole stockpile of gourmet chocolates. 30 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:52.280 You can also go into the cocoa business, the chocolate 31 00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:55.959 business with Phoebe Sad. Just click contact us and they'll 32 00:01:55.959 --> 00:01:58.879 sit you up with your own website and you can 33 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:04.000 make some money selling not coco, but sell it chocolate. Okay, 34 00:02:04.040 --> 00:02:06.920 we don't want to give the wrong impression here, all right, 35 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:12.800 really excited about today's show and I just screwed it 36 00:02:12.840 --> 00:02:18.280 up right. We got with us here John O'Rourke and 37 00:02:18.360 --> 00:02:21.240 his website is John Eoorwork dot com and you can 38 00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:25.719 find him on Instagram at j O R. Author on Instagram. 39 00:02:26.199 --> 00:02:29.400 And he contacts me out of the blue and he says, hey, man, 40 00:02:29.439 --> 00:02:32.319 you know I heard you talk about the one of 41 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:34.639 my publishers, you know. And he says, I wrote this 42 00:02:34.639 --> 00:02:38.520 book about Richard Beganwald. Okay, And I said Richard Beganwall. 43 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:41.520 I met Richard Beganhall. So the book is called The 44 00:02:41.719 --> 00:02:47.319 Jersey Shore Thrill Killer Richard Beganwall, and it's by John Owarke. 45 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:50.560 And there's gonna be a link in the Operaman Report 46 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:54.080 bookstore and also on our Facebook and all that kind 47 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:58.960 of stuff. So, so, John, are you there, Okay? Still 48 00:02:59.000 --> 00:02:59.520 got your mute? 49 00:02:59.599 --> 00:02:59.800 John? 50 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:06.199 Johnny you're there, Yes, John, mute this? Sorry? So tell 51 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:08.080 us about yourself, John, who is General Roy? 52 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:12.439 Well, thanks ed first for having me. I appreciate it. 53 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.960 I started as a new Jersey State trooper back in 54 00:03:18.879 --> 00:03:23.039 June of nineteen eighty five. From there, I went up 55 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:26.840 patrolled the rural mountains of Sussex County. State Police up 56 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:30.919 there are responsible for several counts. So that was the 57 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:34.280 start of my career. A created lasted twenty six years 58 00:03:35.479 --> 00:03:38.280 with a number of assignments, mainly in the uniform that's 59 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:41.560 what we call in the State Police, the field operations, 60 00:03:42.439 --> 00:03:46.360 some what we call plane clothes. It becails along the way. 61 00:03:46.639 --> 00:03:52.360 Ended up becoming a squad supervisor and running a squad 62 00:03:52.439 --> 00:03:57.120 of ten troopers for a good decade or more before 63 00:03:57.120 --> 00:04:01.719 moving on to headquarters, which was located down in the 64 00:04:02.039 --> 00:04:03.840 I don't know if you're familiar with New Jersey, put 65 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:06.439 down by the Arts Center. They opened up a new 66 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:09.479 State Police facility there and I was instrumental in providing 67 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:14.680 the security recommendations for that facility. And it was towards 68 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:18.519 the end of my career that I decided to write 69 00:04:18.519 --> 00:04:21.199 a book on the Jersey Troopers who died in the 70 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.160 line of duty. So I spent a good six years 71 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.920 researching what I had planned to be a book about 72 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.879 the Troopers, and it turned out to be two books. 73 00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:34.759 To the publisher of the History Press liked the idea. 74 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:36.680 I wanted to go with it, but they said it 75 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:41.120 was too much for one book. So first book was 76 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:45.120 titled Jersey Troopers Sacrifice at the Ultro Public Service. That 77 00:04:45.240 --> 00:04:49.199 came out just the last year twenty ten, the last 78 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:51.120 year that I was with the organization. So it was 79 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:56.040 actually a pretty good you know entry, I should say 80 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:58.800 exit for me from the organization. I paid tribute to 81 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:00.439 the troopers who died in the line of duty, and 82 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:03.480 I retired a year later, and then the second book 83 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:08.560 came out after that, And so since my retiring in 84 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.720 February twenty eleven, I've been working as a security consulting 85 00:05:11.959 --> 00:05:15.720 I run. I'm directed security of a high end private 86 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:20.079 country club, so I do private club security. And in 87 00:05:20.120 --> 00:05:23.319 addition to that, I've been writing two books. One is 88 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.839 a true prime book and the other one is a 89 00:05:26.879 --> 00:05:32.120 fiction book. And the Jersey Sure Throw Killer was I 90 00:05:32.120 --> 00:05:36.160 guess it came out in twenty fourteen, so yeah, I 91 00:05:36.199 --> 00:05:38.360 guess I was doing that shortly after I left. 92 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:41.920 It's been out for a while. Then, Okay, how old are. 93 00:05:41.839 --> 00:05:45.720 You I am? Jeez, fifty four? 94 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.399 Me too, Yeah, I'm fifty four. I'm going to be 95 00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:51.959 fifty five in November, and I can't remember reading. As 96 00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:53.480 a matter of fact, I'll be fifty five or September. 97 00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:57.040 I got the month wrong's you? It's amazing how your 98 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.120 memory starts to go. So, okay, it's really cool. Now, 99 00:06:00.600 --> 00:06:03.240 while you were a cop in the Jersey State Troopers there, 100 00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.360 did you have any connection with the Bigland Wall case 101 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:06.120 round antime. 102 00:06:07.839 --> 00:06:09.920 No, I did not. I came on in eighty five 103 00:06:10.120 --> 00:06:15.199 and bigger wall case didn't really crack into January eighty 104 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:19.560 three with the discovery of the body of Anna Ossouritz 105 00:06:20.040 --> 00:06:23.399 in Ocean Township. Okay, so it was it was just 106 00:06:23.399 --> 00:06:25.759 three years prior to me becoming a trooper. 107 00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:28.560 Right, So then give us an idea. Who was Richard 108 00:06:28.600 --> 00:06:33.120 bigan Wald and his crimes and how did this guy 109 00:06:33.120 --> 00:06:33.800 get started? 110 00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:42.279 Richard bigger Wald was a problematic individual almost from the 111 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:46.040 get go. As a small child, he had displayed a 112 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:51.199 lot of mental issues that at first the family kind 113 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:54.839 of dismissed as just a problematic child. But as time 114 00:06:54.879 --> 00:07:00.000 went on, his mother sought out some medical help for him, 115 00:07:00.079 --> 00:07:04.360 and it was it was determined that he was a schizophrenic. 116 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.399 And uh so he spent a lot of time in 117 00:07:08.480 --> 00:07:13.120 and out of mental institutions as a child. He from 118 00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:15.959 a I guess when he was around fire or so, 119 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.680 he had tried to set himself on fire, and so 120 00:07:20.120 --> 00:07:26.319 he was starting to display some problematic signs that you 121 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:29.759 see in these type of individuals that go on to 122 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:34.079 become become serial killers. He had a fascination with death. 123 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:39.920 He showed cruelty towards animals, and he was just a 124 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:43.360 he was just a problem individual from the get go. 125 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:49.160 But he was also a very bright individual. I had 126 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:53.040 the opportunity to speak with his defense attorney, who Diamond, 127 00:07:53.399 --> 00:07:56.680 who knew him better than anyone and spent a considerable 128 00:07:56.720 --> 00:07:58.879 amount of time with him, and he said he was 129 00:07:59.120 --> 00:08:03.560 the most intelligent any of them met. So really, because. 130 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:08.639 I've met no Diamond sure plenty of times, I take 131 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:10.639 that as an insult. I think I'm a lot smarter 132 00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:13.160 than Vegan World. I can't even have to call him 133 00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:14.680 up on that one. 134 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:21.519 Well that is that is funny. But yeah, and well, 135 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:24.800 Luke Diamond got connected with Richard biegi Wold. What happened 136 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:29.839 was in December of fifty a being a walled committed 137 00:08:29.839 --> 00:08:33.720 his first murder. It was it was a robbery, uh 138 00:08:34.000 --> 00:08:37.120 that didn't go wrong, as you know, don't. I don't 139 00:08:37.120 --> 00:08:38.720 want to give away too much of the book, but 140 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:41.440 if you read the book, he actually he actually had 141 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:46.799 an intent to uh to push his his fantasies to 142 00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.039 the next level and take a life, and it happened. 143 00:08:50.200 --> 00:08:52.679 It happened in December of fifty eight with the killing 144 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:57.440 of a man called Stephen Sladowski, and Bigger Ward was 145 00:08:57.480 --> 00:09:01.080 sent to life in prison with the possibility parole for 146 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:04.039 good if he if he you know, acted accordingly, he'd 147 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:06.559 get out on a good behavior a number of years 148 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:11.559 down the road. And even uh Slinowski's widow actually had 149 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:14.200 pleaded for the court to have mercy on on a 150 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:18.200 young BigGAN Wald. So that's sus the stage where a 151 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:20.480 Bigger World is in in Trenton State for a number 152 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:24.039 of years and had opportunities to speak with prison guards 153 00:09:24.039 --> 00:09:28.000 that actually were there with big and World while he 154 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:32.679 was in prison, and in the beginning he was problematic 155 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:35.200 and you know, did what he did what he had 156 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:38.080 to do. He had to established himself in order to 157 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:41.399 survive with and you know, the confines of a prison. 158 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.600 But when it got to the point in time when 159 00:09:44.720 --> 00:09:48.480 he realized he wanted to get out and uh you know, 160 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:52.399 on parole, he started to conform and act a certain way, 161 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:57.320 which was he had he had foreshadowed that years prior, 162 00:09:57.399 --> 00:10:01.200 when his mother hadn't committed to the the Boys Club 163 00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:05.159 in upstate New York, where he was very problematic there 164 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:08.440 and actually tried to escape from there and got a 165 00:10:08.440 --> 00:10:13.120 whole group of individuals to organize this, this massive escape. 166 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:16.679 But once that went awry, he realized that he had 167 00:10:16.679 --> 00:10:19.039 to in order to get out, he had to perform, 168 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:21.919 and he ended up. He ended up performing, got out. 169 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:25.320 They put him a mainstream school for a few years, 170 00:10:25.960 --> 00:10:30.279 but he soon dropped out, and that was the segue 171 00:10:30.639 --> 00:10:33.559 towards his first murder. But you know, fast forward, he's 172 00:10:33.600 --> 00:10:36.240 in prison, he realizes it's once he's at the point 173 00:10:36.279 --> 00:10:39.480 where he's starting to become eligible for parole, he starts 174 00:10:39.519 --> 00:10:42.440 becoming a model prisoner, and then he gets released. 175 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:45.639 But you started chelling that story because you're you're going 176 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:47.840 to describe how he got connected to lou Diamond. 177 00:10:49.080 --> 00:10:52.799 Yes, so that reads up to his release. He gets released, 178 00:10:53.480 --> 00:10:58.320 and then about a year or two later, he picks 179 00:10:58.399 --> 00:11:05.799 up a hitchhiker, a young woman early twenties, fair skin, 180 00:11:06.159 --> 00:11:09.720 dark haired, dark eyes, which tended to be the woman 181 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:14.559 that he was attracted to. Picks her up hitchhiking, and 182 00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:21.080 somewhere during the travel, she realizes this is not right. 183 00:11:21.840 --> 00:11:25.960 Something is really bad. She goes with her instincts. Unlike 184 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:29.240 the other victims that you'll read about in the book, 185 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:32.039 she follows the instincts and she jumps out of the 186 00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:37.039 car and flees. She gets away, she notifies the police. 187 00:11:37.120 --> 00:11:40.519 She gives a description of him. He was an individual 188 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:43.360 that had read a share well you know you met 189 00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:47.159 him and he had these blue eyes. So she thoroughly 190 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:51.600 describedes bigan World. This happened in Staten Island. The Staten 191 00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:57.399 Island authorities for outs catch the super figure. It's Richard Biganwald. 192 00:11:58.120 --> 00:12:01.000 He is on the run for a few years. He 193 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:04.360 gets caught up at a at a raid in New 194 00:12:04.440 --> 00:12:09.279 York City and gets arrested Lou Diamond. That's how Lou 195 00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:13.559 Diamond comes into the picture. Year that I'm sorry, what 196 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:18.440 year was that? Oh, you're testing my memory now with 197 00:12:19.360 --> 00:12:26.080 my narrative worth about seventy five seventy six when he 198 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:31.480 when he commits this, this is not a woman and 199 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:37.200 they authorities had it down as an attempted rape. Lou 200 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.399 Diamond is sitting in his office in Staten Island one 201 00:12:40.480 --> 00:12:43.639 day he gets a call. Now he's very upfront, he's 202 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:45.360 he gets a call. He tells me it's a call 203 00:12:45.399 --> 00:12:48.960 from an organized crime figure. The figure. He won't mention 204 00:12:49.080 --> 00:12:51.360 my name, but he says it's an organized crime figure. 205 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:58.120 Asking him to represent Richard Bigenwald. He says that bigan 206 00:12:58.159 --> 00:13:03.000 Walled is working for him. This is this is the 207 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:05.919 organized figure that's on the phone and is a good 208 00:13:05.960 --> 00:13:08.399 guy who doesn't throw anyone under the bus, and see 209 00:13:08.440 --> 00:13:09.360 what you can do for him. 210 00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:11.559 Now, did a Diamond I would tell you off the 211 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:12.799 record who this guy was? 212 00:13:14.279 --> 00:13:14.919 No, he didn't. 213 00:13:15.000 --> 00:13:16.480 Oh really, okay, I'd love to find out. 214 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:21.360 Okay, and quite frankly, if you told me in confidence, 215 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:22.159 I wouldn't. 216 00:13:21.799 --> 00:13:22.120 Say an. 217 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:29.600 So that's that is how he got the connection to 218 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:34.080 beagon Wall. But that also will align later on in 219 00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:38.759 the story. As the story unfolds, how through his conversations 220 00:13:38.799 --> 00:13:43.159 with his client, Diamond comes to believe that bigan Wald 221 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:46.279 is working with organized crime as a hit man. And 222 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:50.080 although the victims that the authorities will eventually come to 223 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:54.240 know that are bigger Walds, there are many more, according 224 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:55.679 to the Diamond, that are out there. 225 00:13:57.679 --> 00:13:58.320 Very interesting. 226 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:01.240 Did you find out if this we have that connection this. 227 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:04.200 Organized crime figure? Do we know if he was from 228 00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:07.279 Staten Island or from Brooklyn? Do we know what family 229 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:09.960 he was from? 230 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:14.200 Again? It was well, it was from Staten Island and 231 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:18.960 lu Diamond had represented a number of people, uh that 232 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:23.320 were you know, with with uh, you know, criminal groups 233 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:28.600 on the island. The particular group I don't recall, but 234 00:14:28.759 --> 00:14:31.480 even Lou Diamond has a relative and I can't think 235 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:33.240 of his name right off the bat, it's in my 236 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:37.399 it's in my narrative that was an organized crime figure 237 00:14:37.399 --> 00:14:39.720 as his godfather. Who's actually connected to the mob. 238 00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:43.120 Well, Stanton Eun's a very small place, especially back in 239 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:47.960 the seventies and the eighties, So all your neighbors, everybody, 240 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:50.799 you know, everybody knew somebody. It was such a small 241 00:14:50.840 --> 00:14:53.320 town back in Yeah. 242 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:56.200 Believe it or not. Muth Diamond actually lived on Shart's 243 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:00.440 Road and Biggerwald's mother lived at for twenty Sheriff's So 244 00:15:00.519 --> 00:15:03.840 they were, in essence neighbors. Never knew him until he 245 00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:07.159 got the call, but they were a stone throw from 246 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:07.639 one another. 247 00:15:07.960 --> 00:15:11.360 Very interesting, that same home where they found those bodies 248 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:12.720 buried in the basement. 249 00:15:12.440 --> 00:15:17.360 Right correct, in the basement in the backyard. 250 00:15:16.960 --> 00:15:19.799 In the backyard. See because when I'll tell the story 251 00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.840 now real quick, because I was at that home with 252 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:26.080 Began Wald and some guys from Tennessee. They were bringing 253 00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:30.000 some marijuana up from Tennessee and I was there meeting 254 00:15:30.039 --> 00:15:33.759 with them, and we used began Wall's house and also 255 00:15:33.799 --> 00:15:35.679 a guy from Stanton Alley named Pete Peaches that I've 256 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:39.000 talked about before. Pete Peaches Stenistrude, which was he was 257 00:15:39.039 --> 00:15:40.960 a driver for some of the families in Stanton Island, 258 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:43.440 so he knew everybody and a big, big guy, six 259 00:15:43.440 --> 00:15:47.360 foot five. And in the middle of all this, I 260 00:15:47.399 --> 00:15:49.279 didn't know began Wold at all. And I don't remember 261 00:15:49.320 --> 00:15:51.559 him having red hair. I don't recall that. It's a 262 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:54.799 long time ago, you know. And but he starts waving 263 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:57.679 around a shotgun like a joke, you know, and he 264 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:01.480 was just doing a lot of wacky stuff, well erratic behavior, 265 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:04.919 you know. And as we were leaving, he did this 266 00:16:05.000 --> 00:16:09.320 thing out the front entrance. There was a little patio 267 00:16:09.720 --> 00:16:12.159 area that was walled in and there might have been 268 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:14.559 a bench there, but it was a little garden type 269 00:16:14.600 --> 00:16:17.080 area and he waves his armors around because he was 270 00:16:17.080 --> 00:16:19.600 a very erratic and frantic that day, and he goes, 271 00:16:19.840 --> 00:16:23.399 this is where we bury the bodies, you know, as 272 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:25.200 a joke. And we just kind of chuckled and we 273 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:26.360 want to get out of there, you know. We just 274 00:16:26.440 --> 00:16:29.159 chuckled and left and then years later I found out 275 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:32.080 from Tom and Pete. Yeah, this guy was a serial 276 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.759 killer and had bodies buried at the house. But did 277 00:16:34.759 --> 00:16:36.919 they ever check the front? Do you know? 278 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:41.879 Well, you know that's funny that you that he said 279 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:44.039 that to you, because yeah, he wasn't joking. He actually 280 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:48.039 probably buried out there. But the interesting thing when I 281 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:50.759 asked James Fagan about this, there was a little bit 282 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:52.559 of a power struggle that I talked about in the 283 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:57.639 narrative between New York and New Jersey, and New York 284 00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:01.919 was very uncooperative. Uh So once they got the bodies, 285 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:06.039 Jersey went Jersey officials went over the river. And he 286 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:09.960 doesn't know James Fagan on whether they actually ever dug 287 00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:13.200 into the basement, he doesn't believe that they did, so 288 00:17:13.480 --> 00:17:18.279 from my understanding, the authorities never uh never went into 289 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:20.160 the basement. 290 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:23.039 Really, so then they could have dug in the front 291 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:25.200 where he was mentioning, we was joking about. 292 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.880 Yeah, and what happened in the past is big the 293 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:32.519 world is known to have buried a body in a 294 00:17:33.079 --> 00:17:36.640 h I think it's the point point pleasant in his appointment, 295 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:38.960 and they had point in point pleasant he had buried 296 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:44.359 the body temporarily uh in the basement and eventually moved 297 00:17:44.359 --> 00:17:46.359 that body. So he is he is known to have 298 00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:49.200 buried bodies in basements, but they never looked at the 299 00:17:49.200 --> 00:17:50.359 basement at the mother's house. 300 00:17:50.680 --> 00:17:52.640 The brand He's also known to move bodies too, so 301 00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:54.000 he could have had him there for a little while 302 00:17:54.000 --> 00:17:56.599 and moved them. My god, what a fascinating And now 303 00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:58.920 now I don't we call him being like a big, strong, 304 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.119 tough guy either. He's was he short. 305 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.160 Hexactly, I believe it around five five or nine. 306 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:08.480 Yeah, he didn't strike me as like a guy that 307 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:14.200 was a particular threat or except for the shotgun, you know, 308 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:15.720 but other than that, he just seemed like one of 309 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:17.640 the guys because and Pete was so big and giants, 310 00:18:17.640 --> 00:18:20.079 such a big giant guy. He shadowed everybody. And the 311 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:22.119 guys from Tennessee were kind of like my height. They 312 00:18:22.119 --> 00:18:25.200 were kind of like hippies, Vietnam Vet type guys, and 313 00:18:25.240 --> 00:18:27.599 they would all smile into when he was waving the shotguns, 314 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:30.839 and no one took him serious. We immediately interpreted as 315 00:18:30.839 --> 00:18:31.200 a joke. 316 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:35.240 But yeah, I think I think that kind of that 317 00:18:35.400 --> 00:18:39.400 also kind of made it easier for him to uh 318 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:43.039 to meet and greet his victims. He wasn't He wasn't 319 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:49.119 an overbearing type of man. From what I've spoken with people, 320 00:18:49.160 --> 00:18:52.839 he was very pleasant. He could be pleasant, and he 321 00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:57.079 wasn't intimidating whatsoever. So the young, you know, his young 322 00:18:57.160 --> 00:19:01.240 victims didn't too intimidated buy him at all. But those 323 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:04.480 that doctor know him and knew that, you know, he 324 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:08.279 didn't he didn't joke around. So like James Fagan joked that, 325 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.000 you know, he got the impression that if Big Old 326 00:19:10.039 --> 00:19:12.640 said I'm going to kill you, he wasn't a joke. 327 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:14.759 It wasn't just a you know, a statement. It was 328 00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:16.759 a fact. He was going to kill you. And there 329 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:20.200 was a couple of witnesses that had actually witnessed the execution, 330 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:23.559 people that lived in his apartment in as Perry Park. 331 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:27.680 They actually had witnessed the murder of William Ward out 332 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:30.359 there was a struggle that took place outside and Big 333 00:19:30.480 --> 00:19:33.759 Wall shut the guy in the head, and they did 334 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:35.920 not come forward at all because they were just in 335 00:19:36.039 --> 00:19:37.799 fear that they would be next. 336 00:19:39.359 --> 00:19:41.759 Yeah, that's interesting. I could see that too, because you know, 337 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:43.640 all those guys are pretty serious guys, the ones that 338 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.240 I knew, and I'm sure he you know, all those 339 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.839 guys on Staten Island was so serious back in those days, you. 340 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:53.000 Know, and well, you know it's fine, that's you know, 341 00:19:53.079 --> 00:19:56.880 to go back to the bodies that you say about transition. Yeah, 342 00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:59.440 I suspected that the two bodies that they did find, 343 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.960 it was Maria Chillella and Deborah Osborne at the mother's 344 00:20:04.960 --> 00:20:09.319 house in Staten Island, that they were just buried there temporarily. 345 00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:14.920 They was three or four feet down. They were dismembered 346 00:20:15.160 --> 00:20:18.519 in bags and I believe that that was a temporary 347 00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:20.200 holding spin until he can move them. 348 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:24.799 How did they come about to catch money these serial killings? 349 00:20:27.599 --> 00:20:32.279 What happened was in January of nineteen eighty three, a 350 00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:35.640 couple of kids were playing in a vacant lot behind 351 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:42.119 Burger King and they discovered the remains of a female. 352 00:20:41.799 --> 00:20:43.160 On Stanton Island or in Jersey. 353 00:20:44.079 --> 00:20:48.039 This is in New Jersey in Ocean Township. Yeah, and 354 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.799 I believe it was on thirty five. They were playing 355 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:55.599 in the lot, they discovered the body and it was 356 00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.920 reported to police and that's how the police discovered the 357 00:20:59.000 --> 00:21:03.079 buy and it remained there was it was it was 358 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.440 just a skeleton by the time they got it so 359 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:09.799 when it got onto the news later that night into 360 00:21:09.839 --> 00:21:13.960 the next day, Bigan Wolf's ex girlfriend, a woman named 361 00:21:14.039 --> 00:21:16.319 Teresa Smith. Now he was married, mind you too, but 362 00:21:16.359 --> 00:21:18.240 he had a girlfriend as well, and at one time 363 00:21:18.599 --> 00:21:23.720 the girlfriend and the wife were living together. But the girlfriend, 364 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:27.119 Teresa Smith, had broken away from Bigan Walter, but she 365 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.680 knew that the body found in a lot was a 366 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:36.640 Big Wolf's victim. At fact, he had brought the it's 367 00:21:36.680 --> 00:21:40.000 home the evening of her death, and he had actually 368 00:21:40.079 --> 00:21:46.720 wanted Teresa to to kill in the in the garage 369 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:49.559 that was that was a test, so he actually had 370 00:21:49.599 --> 00:21:53.880 scooped and so it's up for me Asbury Park boardwalk, 371 00:21:54.640 --> 00:21:57.279 which is basically she was sitting right outside of the 372 00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:02.359 Stone Pony and took and took her home to meet 373 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:06.920 Teresa with the intent that Teresa would perform the execution 374 00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:10.799 because they had been speaking about doing this for quite 375 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:16.559 some time. I gather, although there's no proof that Bigger 376 00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:21.319 World ever sexually assaulted any of his victims, I gathered 377 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:24.000 the relationship that he had with Teresa had some kind 378 00:22:24.000 --> 00:22:27.440 of sick connection to his victims, because if you look 379 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:29.400 at his victims and you look at Teresa, she was 380 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:32.440 very similar. She had that look. She was an attractive 381 00:22:33.359 --> 00:22:38.920 woman early early in her twenties, dark hair and brown eyes, 382 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:43.720 so she looked just like his victims. But that's how 383 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:47.759 So she's sitting there, she sees the news and she 384 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:53.079 got scared that Bigger World was going to I guess 385 00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:57.400 terminate her because they were now we're not together, and 386 00:22:57.599 --> 00:22:59.519 she was afraid that he'd come after her of knowing 387 00:22:59.559 --> 00:23:03.599 that she actually knew and could put Big World in 388 00:23:03.640 --> 00:23:06.720 connection with that body in that lot. So that's how 389 00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:07.519 she came forward. 390 00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:08.799 So she went to the cops. 391 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.680 She went to the cops, and then. 392 00:23:13.599 --> 00:23:15.839 Right away they pick him up to the confess. 393 00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:21.680 Well. It was a strange story that I talked about 394 00:23:21.720 --> 00:23:26.599 in the book where Theresa had a connection through a 395 00:23:26.880 --> 00:23:32.559 She was dating someone who knew a local police officer. 396 00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:35.920 And the story that she told about Richie Bigwall was 397 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:41.079 quite bizarre. He had a poisonous snake in his basement 398 00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:43.920 that he was extracting the venom out of the snake 399 00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:46.640 because they were going to poison people at the Mammouth Mall. 400 00:23:47.160 --> 00:23:51.400 He had a variety of guns and makeshift weapons and bombs. 401 00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.000