WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.080 With the run Segle end from London and Gerard read 2 00:00:07.160 --> 00:00:11.119 from Berlin. This is redefining energy today. 3 00:00:11.359 --> 00:00:14.960 On Redefining Energy JA, we're going to talk about the 4 00:00:15.160 --> 00:00:16.480 behind the mitter. 5 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:19.920 Revolution, absolutely and in particular we're going to look at 6 00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:21.359 the residential area right. 7 00:00:21.600 --> 00:00:23.079 But first the world from my partner. 8 00:00:23.679 --> 00:00:26.640 A b Loco Energy is Europe's premier leaser of ten 9 00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:31.039 foot container mobile batteries built in Europe with COTL best 10 00:00:31.160 --> 00:00:36.960 LFP cells. A Bloco Energy serves fourteen European countries, including France, 11 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:41.159 Germany and the UK. A Bloco's batteries can be leased 12 00:00:41.159 --> 00:00:44.280 for any duration between six weeks and six years and 13 00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:47.679 they are monitored by the Dutch award winning platform school 14 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:51.759 a Blocko Energy. Make your life easier, make your business 15 00:00:51.759 --> 00:00:52.439 more flexible. 16 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:54.960 Back to the show, and what do we mean by that? 17 00:00:55.079 --> 00:00:57.759 It means basically, you're going into people's homes. 18 00:00:57.399 --> 00:00:58.439 With an energy solution. 19 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:00.920 You're putting in solar a, you're putting and batteries, might 20 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:03.679 be putting in heat pumps, and you're doing it sort 21 00:01:03.719 --> 00:01:06.239 of as an energy as a service type agreement. 22 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:09.560 Yes, but it's much more than that because you need 23 00:01:09.599 --> 00:01:15.480 to then connect all those systems and run energy management, 24 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:21.079 which is gonna literally merge all those decentralized sources and 25 00:01:21.319 --> 00:01:24.920 talk directly to the grid. And that's what our guest 26 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:27.159 is doing and very successfully. 27 00:01:27.760 --> 00:01:30.359 Yeah, so listen, what we're doing is bringing on a 28 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:31.879 German entrepreneur, Philip Shorter. 29 00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:34.159 It's been really active. 30 00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:39.079 Is founded a business called einskomerfon one coma five also 31 00:01:39.200 --> 00:01:44.120 formerly with sonon battery manufacturer Tesla and a really really 32 00:01:44.239 --> 00:01:46.040 passionate maker of the future. 33 00:01:46.040 --> 00:01:49.079 I would say, you know, oh yeah, a company now 34 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.439 as close to one billion euro of annual of news 35 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.680 three thousand employees. So it's one of the most active 36 00:01:55.719 --> 00:01:59.200 and successful entrepreneurs in the behind the metal revolution. 37 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:00.840 And it's great have them on the show. 38 00:02:00.959 --> 00:02:03.480 So why don't we bring them on? Philip, Welcome to 39 00:02:03.519 --> 00:02:04.000 the show. 40 00:02:04.359 --> 00:02:05.359 Thank you for having me. 41 00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:08.199 Philip. I'm really excited about this conversation because at the 42 00:02:08.319 --> 00:02:10.879 end of the day, you've been an entrepreneur and an 43 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:12.639 innovator in this energy. 44 00:02:12.319 --> 00:02:14.039 Space for years. 45 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:16.639 At this point in time, my own view of present 46 00:02:16.759 --> 00:02:19.520 is look after the beginning of this second energy crisis 47 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:22.080 five years at this point in time, I think things 48 00:02:22.120 --> 00:02:25.000 are really going to change. I'd love to hear your thoughts. 49 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:29.120 I'm obviously strategist more than anything else, and you're actually operating, 50 00:02:29.159 --> 00:02:31.599 You're actually doing it, So yeah, I'd love to hear 51 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:32.039 your view. 52 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:35.280 I would say high level. The view I have is that, 53 00:02:35.439 --> 00:02:39.520 in particular in Europe, the latest energy crisis is somehow 54 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:44.080 the final battle between either a fully electrified, clean energy 55 00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:49.280 abundant Europe or a high cost fossil fuel, high grid 56 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:52.919 prices energy future for Europe. The good news is, yes, 57 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:56.319 the energy crisis now is helping the scenario of full 58 00:02:56.520 --> 00:03:00.319 electrification and renewables totally because everybody can see now how 59 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:02.360 resilient it makes us. But at the same time we 60 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:06.919 also see sustained pushback on all levels regulatory level, policy level, 61 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:10.199 capital market level. Really is in my view, a very 62 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:13.360 decisive time on all of these levels at the same time, 63 00:03:13.439 --> 00:03:15.879 and I'm excited about it because I think it's possible 64 00:03:16.280 --> 00:03:18.240 to really turn this in the right direction. So I 65 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:20.800 share your view that there's a lot of opportunity right now. 66 00:03:21.159 --> 00:03:23.280 At the same time, we need to win some strategic 67 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:26.840 battles now, and they need to be one on multiple fronts. 68 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:30.639 What can I maybe ask, what are those strategic challenges 69 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:32.639 you see. 70 00:03:31.840 --> 00:03:35.240 The main issue for renewables and the entire discussion about 71 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:38.479 renewables against fossils, is that we have an energy system 72 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:43.319 that simply has the grid as a non intelligent huge 73 00:03:43.360 --> 00:03:47.520 machine which either is transporting peak demand or peak production. 74 00:03:48.120 --> 00:03:52.319 And if you continue to use that huge copper machine 75 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:54.520 that we have in Europe the way we are doing it, 76 00:03:54.719 --> 00:03:58.319 the energy transition will become a trap. The most significant 77 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:00.560 change in my view is that we need to look 78 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:04.599 at behind the meta of flexibility as a very low 79 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:08.240 cost possibility to optimize capacity usage of grids in all 80 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:11.199 of Europe, and we need to find a way how 81 00:04:11.240 --> 00:04:15.680 grid operators actually can benefit and operate in a flexible grid, 82 00:04:15.800 --> 00:04:18.120 meaning that they have flexible grid fees, so that you 83 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:22.839 change the paradigm from a peak demand peak production towards 84 00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:26.319 following the rhythm of sun and wind energy production. Right. 85 00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:28.519 So this is the main topic I see, and I 86 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:30.720 think we don't really have an issue on the production 87 00:04:30.800 --> 00:04:34.079 capacity side, but on the transport side and the grid side, 88 00:04:34.240 --> 00:04:37.560 there's a major battle going on how to operate the 89 00:04:37.600 --> 00:04:39.079 grids and how to build them. 90 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:41.079 By the way, I think it's very interesting you say 91 00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:44.319 this because if I want to compare the energy crisis 92 00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:47.120 we're in now to the second energy crist in the seventies. 93 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:50.279 In the seventies we really didn't have the technological solution, 94 00:04:50.439 --> 00:04:53.000 so there was one which was called nuclear, and everyone 95 00:04:53.079 --> 00:04:55.040 jumped on that. We either started drilling in the North 96 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.600 Sea or we went and built nuclear, and in some 97 00:04:57.639 --> 00:05:00.519 respects what France did it was absolutely inco credible in 98 00:05:00.560 --> 00:05:03.480 the years in the nineteen eighties. But today, if I look, 99 00:05:03.519 --> 00:05:06.600 I go, We've got so many technical solutions in the 100 00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:10.360 electrical space, whether it's solar, it's batteries, it's evs that 101 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:14.120 make economic sense. That's the really difference between That's why 102 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.680 I'm positive is because of the fact that we do 103 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:19.399 have the solutions which we didn't have fifty years ago. 104 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:21.920 One hundred percent. I mean, the good news already is 105 00:05:21.920 --> 00:05:23.879 that we get a lot of validation for them. And 106 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:27.439 the realm of politics is super difficult because everybody's living 107 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:31.079 in social media echo chambers. This makes it really difficult 108 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.439 to appreciate the fact that we have so many technologies 109 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:36.920 at the same time and all of them are working, 110 00:05:37.720 --> 00:05:40.399 which I love. Right heatpump is working. It's great technology, 111 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:44.079 it's much more efficient, it's much cleaner, it's cheaper singles 112 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:47.079 for EV's singles for solar, and it's getting only better. 113 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:49.040 I'm with you, but I think the great challenge is 114 00:05:49.480 --> 00:05:52.360 if you have sixty percent of overall energy costs being 115 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:56.399 grid cost, because you are not capable of absorbing overproduction 116 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:59.519 in a smart way with existing capacities that we have 117 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:02.800 just literally switching them on when there is wind and 118 00:06:02.839 --> 00:06:05.560 when there is sun instead of just switching them always 119 00:06:05.600 --> 00:06:08.360 on when there is neither. If we don't overcome that problem, 120 00:06:08.480 --> 00:06:12.279 the advantage of renewables, the advantage of electrifications are not 121 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:15.439 fully leveraged because they're muted by a very static grid 122 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.319 layer which has become super expensive and which is also 123 00:06:19.560 --> 00:06:22.199 making up sixty percent of the cost. Right, and electrification 124 00:06:22.319 --> 00:06:26.680 is always about competitive. If we have more usage by nature, 125 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:29.279 then the grid fees will go down, but we need 126 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:31.800 to have a very smart capacity management. So yes, the 127 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:34.639 technology is there everywhere, and we are in seven markets, 128 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:37.639 so we see the same trends everywhere, but it's particular 129 00:06:37.680 --> 00:06:40.879 in Europe. A grid layer and all the flexibility steering 130 00:06:40.920 --> 00:06:42.879 behind the meter is something that is not solved to 131 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:46.519 really unleash the full potential. Let me give you one example, 132 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.680 if we take our VPP right now, and even with 133 00:06:49.800 --> 00:06:52.439 high grid fees, which is like a fixed fee that 134 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:54.319 you have to pay per kilar, what hour we are 135 00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:59.519 capable of delivering to a metering point in average just 136 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:02.759 a third of the electricity cost. If you would allow 137 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:06.439 the grid to also be flexible, that would go even 138 00:07:06.560 --> 00:07:09.240 further down. So even though we are muted and the 139 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.199 options and potentials are muted by a very highrid cost, 140 00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:15.680 already today the solutions are super powerful. But at the 141 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.600 same time we see the capacity market in Germany, gas 142 00:07:18.600 --> 00:07:21.839 power fireplant are being built or should be built. Billions 143 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:24.959 are going in there, so there is also some countermeasures 144 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:26.800 that I'm more sensitive towards. 145 00:07:27.199 --> 00:07:30.560 Philip. I'm interested by everything you say because it's not 146 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:35.399 like academic paper or lobby's paper. It's the experiense of 147 00:07:35.439 --> 00:07:39.399 someone a great entrepreneur. In my opinion, you're one of 148 00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:43.160 the greatest entrepreneur in Germany and probably in Europe, and 149 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.639 you've built a one billion euro company three thousand employees, 150 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:50.199 and what you do is very difficult compared to software. 151 00:07:50.639 --> 00:07:55.160 It's because you are integrating hardware and software from the 152 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:58.759 sellar panel to the heat pumps, the client acquisition. Got 153 00:07:58.920 --> 00:08:02.639 that's difficult because it's almost flat by flathouse by a house, 154 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:07.800 and managing to coalesce all those decentralized pointing to dig 155 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:10.439 your load being able to tread it on the market. 156 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:14.680 So explain that scale because there are hundreds of startups, 157 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:18.279 if not thousands, but you know, managing to scale and 158 00:08:18.360 --> 00:08:22.480 be profitable and raise money with great investors. So how 159 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:24.519 does the scaling part works? 160 00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:28.600 I can absolutely relate to that. In the end, the 161 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.000 secret source of what we do has been teams that 162 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:33.759 are in the industry for a while. Because you're totally right. 163 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:35.320 You need to do a couple of things at the 164 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:39.039 same time, right otherwise it won't work. And you spoke 165 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:42.720 about it. Everybody always talks about the seemingless solution for everyone, 166 00:08:42.759 --> 00:08:45.559 blah blah blah. But if you describe the solution is 167 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:49.519 very simple. You need to be capable of trading each 168 00:08:49.679 --> 00:08:53.440 metering point individually to get the best result for the consumer. 169 00:08:53.559 --> 00:08:56.039 That's something new, that's something that has not been done before. 170 00:08:56.399 --> 00:08:58.720 And the second thing is on top of that, you 171 00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:02.720 steer the assets behind the meta directly to basically protect 172 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:05.200 the positions that you're opening in the energy market. So 173 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:09.320 if you are optimizing an individual meter of a customer 174 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.000 against all available markets, and you actually have full steering 175 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:16.519 capability of all electrical assets behind the meter, you have 176 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:19.840 a back to back mechanism to actually take the risk 177 00:09:19.919 --> 00:09:22.639 out that you usually have from forecasting and prognosis in errors. 178 00:09:23.080 --> 00:09:26.360 So if you do this best by definition, you will 179 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:29.840 deliver to that metering point the lowest cost of electricity. 180 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:32.360 And we are doing exactly that. But in order to 181 00:09:32.440 --> 00:09:37.000 deliver that, you need to have electrified hardware. So you 182 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:39.279 need to get the all tank out heating and put 183 00:09:39.279 --> 00:09:42.679 in in electrical heating. The electrical heating needs to be 184 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:46.039 integrated in the trading algorithm in the entire software suit 185 00:09:46.159 --> 00:09:49.480 you have for decades. This is why we have a 186 00:09:49.480 --> 00:09:52.639 software revenue from our customers, because people are paying us 187 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:56.080 to optimize. They don't pay for electricity. They pay us 188 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:59.279 to be the last energy supplier they'll ever need because 189 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:01.759 they know they we will always optimize the metering point 190 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:04.840 for them against all markets. The next point you need 191 00:10:04.919 --> 00:10:07.000 is a smart meter. Obviously in Germany is a huge 192 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:10.720 pain point, and you need full integration of all the 193 00:10:10.879 --> 00:10:14.159 energy market layers. And what we like about one comer 194 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:16.720 five so much about heartbeat. That's the name of the 195 00:10:16.799 --> 00:10:20.919 VPP is. Those layers have never been automated. These layers 196 00:10:20.960 --> 00:10:24.000 are individual layers that are one hundred years old, and 197 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:26.759 we've found a way which was a very hard, painful 198 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.480 way to automate those layers. So in the end we 199 00:10:29.519 --> 00:10:32.399 have an end to end optimization. We open a position 200 00:10:32.440 --> 00:10:34.960 in an energy market and we can do real time 201 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:37.960 optimization of the metering point and the assets, and thereby 202 00:10:38.240 --> 00:10:42.399 we can take advantage of the disadvantages of the system 203 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:45.360 right now. So for example, lots of monatility prices go 204 00:10:45.440 --> 00:10:48.360 down because there's too much wind power. But also we 205 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:52.600 are for example, pre qualified for grid stability services in Sweden, 206 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:56.200 so we can actually use these assets and optimize them 207 00:10:56.200 --> 00:10:59.039 against all available markets. And this is what we do. 208 00:10:59.120 --> 00:11:00.919 And in order to do deliver this, you need all 209 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:03.159 of it. You need to acquire a customer for the hardware, 210 00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:07.279 the hardware stack needs to be already providing the preconditions 211 00:11:07.559 --> 00:11:10.440 for the service, and you need to build a back 212 00:11:10.519 --> 00:11:13.879 end in software system that can actually operate for decades 213 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:16.360 and not just for a one time revenue. And that's 214 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:18.840 what we've done. And I think the backstory to it 215 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:22.679 is we have been as teams in all these markets 216 00:11:22.679 --> 00:11:25.279 before in one silo. So some of us have been 217 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:28.320 part of Tesla trying to scale ev when everybody was 218 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:30.919 laughing about it and people said Tesla's going to be 219 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:34.480 bankrupt soon. We tried to scale batteries in homes when 220 00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:37.320 nobody knew that this product was even available, and we 221 00:11:37.360 --> 00:11:40.639 did this in Australia, in US, in Germany. So literally, 222 00:11:41.000 --> 00:11:42.799 the only reason why we made it so far is 223 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:47.440 because we have learned through our experience every little vertical 224 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:52.279 from energy trading VPP to the residential behind the meta assets. 225 00:11:52.320 --> 00:11:55.720 That's how we actually achieved it. And once you are stable, 226 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:59.360 so once you've reached a position where the product kind 227 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:02.120 of works end to end, and it does. Now it 228 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:06.000 gets nice because what happens is customers refer customers, you 229 00:12:06.080 --> 00:12:10.039 have a better customer experience, and also our customer quisition 230 00:12:10.120 --> 00:12:13.279 cost you ask that question is super low. It's probably 231 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:15.600 the lowest in the industry in Europe, and that's the key. 232 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.360 Otherwise you will never scale because it's simply too expensive. 233 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:21.720 I'm going to ask a question, and if you don't 234 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:24.080 want to answer, that's fine, but I still want to 235 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:27.600 ask the question from the outside looking in. You know 236 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:29.840 we see your name, but you know we see other companies, 237 00:12:29.879 --> 00:12:32.919 So would you describe them as competitors or they have 238 00:12:32.919 --> 00:12:36.159 a different business model? So I can name motopers, I 239 00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:40.159 can name in Texas, base Power, in Germany you've got 240 00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:45.039 empal Tarmondo, and that there are certainly others. So how 241 00:12:45.080 --> 00:12:49.440 would you position income affum versus the names are I 242 00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:51.279 just put forward. 243 00:12:50.960 --> 00:12:53.159 No issues of running them down and just giving you 244 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:55.879 my two cents to each of them. Base Power is 245 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.559 in the end distributed batteries. They are being used as 246 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:02.639 a single product of the tzation against Flexibility, which is 247 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:05.080 a product that we also have. So base is basically 248 00:13:05.080 --> 00:13:08.679 delivering in one vertical that we also provide towards. But 249 00:13:08.759 --> 00:13:10.720 I would say the difference is very simple. I mean, 250 00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.039 first of all, we are not in the US unfortunately, 251 00:13:13.399 --> 00:13:16.240 but we do not only single products. We do full product, 252 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:19.080 so we basically have all products when it comes to 253 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:22.000 electrification on the suite, and we believe that you need 254 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:25.360 to not just have one asset. We believe in multi market, 255 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:28.320 multi product. And also if you do not have the 256 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:31.519 home service capability, so if you cannot really help the 257 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:34.200 customer with actually acquiring the system in the first place, 258 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:37.440 installing the battery, installing the heat bump, then you cannot scale. 259 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:39.840 This is Base. I love Based, It's a great startup. 260 00:13:40.039 --> 00:13:42.639 It's good to have them. If we look at Octopus, 261 00:13:42.759 --> 00:13:45.919 I would say Cargan is the shooting star. Cargan Flex 262 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:49.080 is probably a contender in what we do. But Carten 263 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:51.799 in itself is something like a CRM, right, so we 264 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.639 would not say that Cartan in its core when it 265 00:13:54.639 --> 00:13:58.679 comes to the CRM, like power Cloud or Salesforce, is 266 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:01.360 a true competitors. Is what they do is they want 267 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:04.000 to have many utilities using their system in order to 268 00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:06.879 operate their customers. We want to have an end to 269 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:11.200 end optimization of the entire value chain per customer, so 270 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:14.679 that's a bit different. However, the VPP part is available 271 00:14:14.720 --> 00:14:17.919 now to third parties as well. Termondo great company, but 272 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.639 I would say they focus on heat pumps and end 273 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.240 part historically has been really about financing. All of them 274 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.559 are relevant because none of us knows what the real 275 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:31.360 sweet spot will be to break open. Everyone is having bets. 276 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.360 Our bet is we want to become the operating system 277 00:14:34.399 --> 00:14:37.799 of decentralized energy. With hutbeat and we are opening up 278 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:41.000 to our manufacturers, opening up to all energy suppliers, and 279 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:43.759 we want to have the one stop shop service at 280 00:14:43.759 --> 00:14:45.919 the home because otherwise, we believe you're not going to 281 00:14:45.919 --> 00:14:47.120 get the customer satisfaction. 282 00:14:47.399 --> 00:14:48.320 This is our bed. 283 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:50.679 It's great to have all of them in the game 284 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.240 because they attract investor and attention. Each of them has 285 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:57.480 an individual strategy that's a bit different, Philip. 286 00:14:57.480 --> 00:14:59.200 Can I go back to that? Maybe i'd say what 287 00:14:59.240 --> 00:15:01.519 I think is the greatest challenge to your business and 288 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.440 the other businesses you just mentioned, and that is the 289 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:07.720 fact that most people just don't understand energy in any way. 290 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:10.440 They don't understand that until you go to the petrol 291 00:15:10.480 --> 00:15:13.639 station and there's no petrol or you can't done electricity. 292 00:15:14.200 --> 00:15:16.440 But at that point it's sort of too late. In 293 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:18.679 other words, what I'm saying is that the customer is 294 00:15:18.679 --> 00:15:21.320 not educated enough to be able to sort of go, okay, 295 00:15:21.360 --> 00:15:23.720 I should really go with But it's coming from and 296 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:25.559 do what they're doing, or how do you see it? 297 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:28.200 In other words, that how do you really persuade all 298 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:29.919 those customers to go with you? 299 00:15:30.759 --> 00:15:32.879 The only way to persuade all of them is if 300 00:15:32.879 --> 00:15:35.200 they don't even think about it. You know, there are 301 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:37.559 many companies and we are one of them that invest 302 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.240 into market education. But the best that can happen to 303 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:42.799 you is if you don't need to do that, because 304 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.159 you just have a much more compelling and cheaper offer. 305 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.840 We still struggle to get all the capacity that we 306 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:52.919 would need to actually scale a million buildings a year 307 00:15:53.240 --> 00:15:56.200 for us. The bottleneck is not customer acquisition right now. 308 00:15:56.440 --> 00:15:59.279 Our bottleneck is to get it really through the books 309 00:15:59.600 --> 00:16:02.200 and to have the infrastructure set up ready. From a 310 00:16:02.200 --> 00:16:05.240 demand perspective, we even went to court with this. We 311 00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:07.720 have the lowest electricity cost for these assets. 312 00:16:08.039 --> 00:16:08.759 You would have to. 313 00:16:08.759 --> 00:16:12.559 Have an end to end optimization on each metering device, 314 00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:16.200 totally integrated, full stack in order to compete with us. 315 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:18.799 So from a perspective of what we like most, as 316 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:21.840 customers understand it increasingly and they make a lot of 317 00:16:21.919 --> 00:16:26.080 advertising for us, they understand that it gets cheaper if 318 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:29.200 I have lower electricity costs obviously to acquire a heat 319 00:16:29.200 --> 00:16:31.919 pump and my return on a vest counts earlier. Then 320 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:34.120 if I don't have that, and they see that the 321 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:37.320 assets that they are acquiring are probably it's not so 322 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:40.159 much about an updron cost anymore. It's about total cost 323 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:43.000 of ownership, and what we can prove to our customers 324 00:16:43.080 --> 00:16:46.519 is that we will be capable of keeping their cost 325 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.679 at the lowest possible point when it comes to electricity 326 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:52.919 for a very long period of time and that works. 327 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:55.799 So I wouldn't even say that once we have smart 328 00:16:55.799 --> 00:16:58.799 meters everywhere in Germany, we can take the customers from 329 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:02.039 me on who have relevant assets for us. It's always 330 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:04.680 important that you have an asset that we can actually optimize. 331 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.519 If you do not have assets to optimize, you're not 332 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:08.640 interesting to us. 333 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:10.640 And can I go back to and then we talked 334 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:13.759 earlier on about and I'd agree on a macro level, 335 00:17:13.759 --> 00:17:15.880 if you want to electrify, what we need to do 336 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:18.440 is deal with a quid cosse. But I could argue 337 00:17:18.640 --> 00:17:21.359 that for your business model you actually prefer to have 338 00:17:21.440 --> 00:17:24.200 higher energy prices because the higher they are, the more 339 00:17:24.319 --> 00:17:26.720 likely they are to put in behind the media solutions 340 00:17:27.240 --> 00:17:29.920 and to allow someone like you to go and you know, 341 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:32.000 manage it in an intelligent way. 342 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:35.519 Film I would disagree. In the end, you have all 343 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:38.759 those lobbies who simply want to invest in CAPEX, so 344 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:40.519 they either want to b build batteries or they want 345 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:42.680 to build power generation or they want to build the 346 00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:45.599 wind part. And the real issue for us is we 347 00:17:45.680 --> 00:17:49.720 are interested in allowing the system to function at its 348 00:17:49.920 --> 00:17:53.039 best capacity and efficiency level. The software that we are 349 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:57.559 building is always going to optimize the system for everyone. 350 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.319 Let me give you an example. In Sweden, you have 351 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:04.119 flexible grid fees, meaning if there's too much electricity in 352 00:18:04.160 --> 00:18:06.960 the grid, grid prices are high. If there is no 353 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:10.279 usage so there's lots of capacity, grid prices are low. 354 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:14.440 So this helps to actually make it more attractive to 355 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:17.000 switch lows from a high price zone into a low 356 00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:20.400 price zone. We actually just facilitate that because the algorithm 357 00:18:20.440 --> 00:18:22.759 and the solution that we have is switching the loads 358 00:18:22.799 --> 00:18:24.880 of our customers from the high price zone into the 359 00:18:24.920 --> 00:18:27.680 low price zone. For us, it's really important to have 360 00:18:27.759 --> 00:18:31.559 those flexibility spreads. Obviously, if there's no spread value anymore, 361 00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:35.200 then how can you optimize. But it's not like old 362 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:38.240 solar would like to have high electricity cost and high 363 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:40.960 grid cost because then people buy lots of solar systems 364 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:44.119 new energy. What we do we want to use the 365 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:47.279 systems and leverage them not only on site but also 366 00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:50.440 for example against wind farms. In simple PPAs right. If 367 00:18:50.440 --> 00:18:52.720 you now look at the PPA market and wind farms 368 00:18:53.000 --> 00:18:55.759 in Germany, you have a redispatch. So we are actually 369 00:18:55.880 --> 00:18:59.240 turning off windmills. Tell a what hours of production capacity 370 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.079 that is lost forever it can never be retained. There 371 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:05.119 are penalties paid for that. Obviously we could swallow that 372 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:08.079 and use it. Yes, we try to arbitrash for our 373 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.960 customer good, but the system itself is built to become 374 00:19:12.000 --> 00:19:16.319 the operational layer to harmonize a renewal production with consumption. 375 00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:19.799 That's really core for us because if you build something 376 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.000 that is just an arbitrass model, to be honest, it 377 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:24.559 wouldn't be worth my time. You need to build something 378 00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.640 that solves the largest energy problem we have in Europe, 379 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:31.880 which is harmonizing overproduction or underproduction on the electricity side 380 00:19:32.119 --> 00:19:35.119 with the consumption layer through the grid. That's the operating 381 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:38.319 system that we're building. So, yes, there are some benefits 382 00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:41.160 from us from higher electricity prices, but it's much more 383 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:44.599 important for us to have the flexibility and don't underestimate. 384 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:48.119 If the electricity price is high, nobody buys evs. If 385 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:50.960 the electricity price is high, nobody wants to have heat pumps. 386 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:53.640 Yeah, so can I ask just building them as I'm 387 00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:55.720 listening to you there, if I take your vision, does 388 00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:58.400 it mean that you need to take a step beyond 389 00:19:58.440 --> 00:20:00.680 the customer? In other words, you actually end up with 390 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:04.440 some of these utilities and distribution companies almost as your customers. 391 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:08.359 The plan has always been very simple. We understood that 392 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:11.559 it's very difficult to not have a home solution. On 393 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.759 the electrification part, we'd call it home electrification building electrification. 394 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:16.960 So the solution part is like you need craftsmen. You 395 00:20:17.000 --> 00:20:19.359 need to be capable of fulfilling with the customer, because 396 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:21.960 if you can't do that, it's very difficult to enter 397 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:24.160 the game. That was the first step we did. This 398 00:20:24.279 --> 00:20:27.200 is when people labeled us as solar companies. The second 399 00:20:27.200 --> 00:20:29.440 step then was to prove in an end to end 400 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.519 environment that we can actually beat the electricity price of 401 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.920