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<v Speaker 1>You see, you see, something's going to happen. What's going

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<v Speaker 1>to happen?

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<v Speaker 2>Hein what? I Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode,

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<v Speaker 2>I got a very very special guest, somebody that was

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<v Speaker 2>very uh impactful in my own magical career, especially in

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<v Speaker 2>the Thelemic style of magic. Somebody who probably even really

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<v Speaker 2>set up how I even did my rituals, like I

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<v Speaker 2>went through the Living Thelema Book in that highly impacted

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<v Speaker 2>the way I practiced and the way I even changed

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<v Speaker 2>my outlook on magic itself. So this is very very

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<v Speaker 2>special for me, and I'm very excited to have doctor

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<v Speaker 2>David Schoemaker on. But before we introduce him, I would

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<v Speaker 2>like to introduce the other rejects and I got Judith

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<v Speaker 2>the Loon with us. What is going on? Judith? How

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<v Speaker 2>are you.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi?

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to

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<v Speaker 3>be here. You could catch me on YouTube and on

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<v Speaker 3>X as the Loon with my weekly brunch and every

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<v Speaker 3>my monthly.

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<v Speaker 1>Buddy check.

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<v Speaker 2>Awesome. Thank you for joining us and my man headless Johan.

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<v Speaker 2>What is going on?

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<v Speaker 1>Sir? How you doing?

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<v Speaker 4>You can find me on Twitter and on YouTube. You

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<v Speaker 4>can check out my trialogue with Ethan Indigo and Ricard

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<v Speaker 4>Calivadio this morning. It was a banger, so yeah, check

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<v Speaker 4>that out.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thank you very much for making it. And

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<v Speaker 2>my man Brandon Magus in the media, What is going On?

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<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much for having me again, Nick. I

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<v Speaker 5>love being on this show. I'm so excited to have

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<v Speaker 5>doctor David Shoemaker as you Nick. He also was pivotal

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<v Speaker 5>in my own journey. Read all his books. His voice

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<v Speaker 5>is soothing as well, so it's always when I read

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<v Speaker 5>his books, I have it in my head. Thank you

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<v Speaker 5>for having me Megas in the media, just head on

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<v Speaker 5>over to YouTube x as well as Instagram subscribe, I

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<v Speaker 5>can share. It's all magic, it's all myth, it's all

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<v Speaker 5>meaning here, let's get it done today.

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<v Speaker 2>If you listen to his podcast and then read the book,

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<v Speaker 2>it's like you can literally hear his voice.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that's exactly, that's exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And Robbie Marx please the storyteller himself. Thank you very

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<v Speaker 2>much for joining us. What is going on?

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<v Speaker 1>Sir?

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I was excited for this one. It's good to

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<v Speaker 6>meet you, David. I'm our Marx or Robbie Marx artist illustrator,

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<v Speaker 6>and you can check out all my stuff at my

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<v Speaker 6>link tree which is link tree r M A r

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<v Speaker 6>X and that'll pull up all my miscellaneous things.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks Nick, of course, no, thank you for joining us.

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<v Speaker 2>And again, like I said, we do have doctor David

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<v Speaker 2>Schumaker joining us. He is a clinical psychologist, author, and

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<v Speaker 2>longtime teacher and the Thlemic tradition. He's widely known for

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<v Speaker 2>making complex, the limic and initiatory material more practical in

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<v Speaker 2>a roach, especially through his work on ritual meditation, psychology,

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<v Speaker 2>and spiritual development. Doctor Schumaker is the author of Living Thelema,

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<v Speaker 2>The Winds of Wisdom and The Way of the Will,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's also deeply involved in Tholemic training through the

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<v Speaker 2>Temple of the Silver Star, with decades of experience working

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<v Speaker 2>with students in both OTO and AA related practice. David

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<v Speaker 2>Schumaker describes himself as a clinical psychologist in private practice

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<v Speaker 2>with specialization in Youngian and cognitive behavioral psychotherapy. On his

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<v Speaker 2>official site, he also identifies himself as a chancellor in

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<v Speaker 2>p prolocutor screwinglet up of the Temple of the Silver

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<v Speaker 2>Star and notes he has been involved with the OTO

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<v Speaker 2>as a student of an end as a student of

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<v Speaker 2>AA since nineteen ninety three. Today we're going to get

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<v Speaker 2>into Thelema Astramargentum's spiritual attainment, practical magic, and how psychology

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<v Speaker 2>and mysticism intersect in real practice. Doctor Schumacher, thank you

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<v Speaker 2>very much for coming on the show and welcome to

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<v Speaker 2>the Occult Rejects. Would you please let everybody know where

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<v Speaker 2>they can find anything about you what you would like

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<v Speaker 2>to plug rabbitas sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much for having me so. I have

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<v Speaker 1>a presence on Facebook and Instagram and the Living Thelema

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<v Speaker 1>podcast which still exists. I just do it intermittently. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you can find all that archived over the years at

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<v Speaker 1>Livingthalima dot com. Also there is a Living Thalima dedicated

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<v Speaker 1>YouTube channel that has archives of every Living Kalma episode

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<v Speaker 1>and Organizationally, you can find the organization's administer. The AA

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<v Speaker 1>is at one Star Insight dot org and the Temple

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<v Speaker 1>of the SilverStar is at T O T S S

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<v Speaker 1>dot org.

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<v Speaker 2>Wees. Thank you very much again. Like I do with

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<v Speaker 2>every guest that I have on for this type of topic,

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<v Speaker 2>I normally guess start off with how did you find

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<v Speaker 2>yourself like one day saying like ritual ceremonial magics might

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<v Speaker 2>think like, what got you there?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, an interesting story at least for me. But

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<v Speaker 1>I was a graduate student in psychology getting my doctorate

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<v Speaker 1>in Indiana State. This was n ninety three, and I had

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<v Speaker 1>come out of college more or less an atheist, going

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<v Speaker 1>through this sort of generic clinical psychology training. But I

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<v Speaker 1>realized I wanted more than was being offered. I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>something with more depth and mystery to it, really than

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<v Speaker 1>kind of cut and dried cognitive herooral work and so on.

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<v Speaker 1>So I'd always been interested in Carl Jung, and there

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<v Speaker 1>was an influential professor in our department who was also

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<v Speaker 1>interested in Young. So he and I started a book

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<v Speaker 1>club basically to kind of let people who are interested

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<v Speaker 1>get more content around Young. And we did that for

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<v Speaker 1>a few years, and as I got my degree and

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<v Speaker 1>went out into practice, I focused on Young. But in

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<v Speaker 1>the middle of grad schools that was starting up and

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<v Speaker 1>I was I was getting more into Young, I realized

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't I needed something in my personal life that

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<v Speaker 1>was more numinous as Young might have said, that had

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<v Speaker 1>a spiritual quality that had a mystery to it. And

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<v Speaker 1>so I started doing some reading, you know, around the

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<v Speaker 1>vaguely occult and pagan books that were available at the

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<v Speaker 1>time this is pre Internet, of course, and read some

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<v Speaker 1>wicked pagan materials from Llewellen. But what really caught my

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<v Speaker 1>eye within a few months of doing that, well in books,

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<v Speaker 1>what really caught my eye within a few months of

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<v Speaker 1>doing that was that in the back of those wicked

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<v Speaker 1>pagan books were ads for things like The Golden Down

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<v Speaker 1>by Regardi and The Middle Pillar by Regardy, and I thought, actually,

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<v Speaker 1>that sounds was more like what I'm kind of looking for.

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<v Speaker 1>So I read those books, and the really pivotal moment

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<v Speaker 1>was when I got The Middle Pillar by Regardi, where

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<v Speaker 1>he explicitly links cabitalistic psychology with the work of Carl

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<v Speaker 1>Jung and the work Foster Crowley, and that just sort

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<v Speaker 1>of got my head spinning, and I knew it would

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<v Speaker 1>be my life's work. I didn't know how it would

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<v Speaker 1>be my life's work, but I knew it would be.

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<v Speaker 1>So that was nineteen ninety three. That's when I got

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<v Speaker 1>initiated into Oto and into the They brought her tradition

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<v Speaker 1>behind the AA and Temple the SilverStar, and so that

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<v Speaker 1>was that's the origin story.

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<v Speaker 2>Did anybody have anything before? I said, asking questions.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, I think it kind of helped knowing that you know,

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<v Speaker 4>Wika and the Garden Area tradition really had you know,

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<v Speaker 4>its roots in AA and you know the Golden Dawn,

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<v Speaker 4>and so you know, it was an easy transition. But

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<v Speaker 4>you know, a lot of people get stuck on the aesthetics.

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<v Speaker 4>What about these addicts do you like of Golden Down

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<v Speaker 4>versus the wick of tradition.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there's beautiful ritual work in all traditions that

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<v Speaker 1>we've named here, But for me, there was something about

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose, if I'm completely honest with myself, there's something

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<v Speaker 1>about the complexity of sort of Golden Dawn or the

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<v Speaker 1>Limix style ceremonial that just was inherently I just connected with.

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<v Speaker 1>It felt more like an expression of where I already

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<v Speaker 1>was as a person, and so I didn't feel like

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<v Speaker 1>I was going somewhere else. I felt like I had

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<v Speaker 1>found something that was already home to me in that way.

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<v Speaker 1>That and probably too much reading Order of the Rings

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<v Speaker 1>as a kid, that the Gandalf archetype I was ready

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<v Speaker 1>to connect with. You know, kind of half joking on that,

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<v Speaker 1>but yeah, that's my best answer for that. What can

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<v Speaker 1>you say? It's an intuitive thing, that something calls to you.

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<v Speaker 2>How is that? I guess you know, I really would

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<v Speaker 2>like to get your take on it for listeners to hear,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, from you people say, at Lima, what does

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<v Speaker 2>that mean to you?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so I'll take it for the absolute movie here I.

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<v Speaker 1>Thelema is the Greek word for will. Will in the

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<v Speaker 1>sense of divine will more than a want or a

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<v Speaker 1>need or a drive. It's more like the basic nature

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<v Speaker 1>of a person and how they operate in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>How and how how they operate is an extension of

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<v Speaker 1>divine will. That is, we are as individuals here born

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<v Speaker 1>in a certain condition, in a certain place, with certain

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<v Speaker 1>parameters of our strengths and weaknesses and so on, and

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<v Speaker 1>within that we have a way that we are in

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<v Speaker 1>the world. There's something unique about each person that explains

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<v Speaker 1>what they do in this room, in this moment, as

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<v Speaker 1>much as it explains what they do over the course

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<v Speaker 1>of decades in their lives, and it's rooted in their

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<v Speaker 1>essence as an organism. Just like a tree does a

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<v Speaker 1>certain thing, or an animal does a certain thing, or

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<v Speaker 1>a river does a certain thing, each individual does a

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<v Speaker 1>certain thing, and the task of each of us is

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<v Speaker 1>to discover that true will, and once we have some

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<v Speaker 1>conscious awareness of that, we strive to shape a life

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<v Speaker 1>that will give us maximized opportunities to live that out

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<v Speaker 1>without as much conflict with harmony and joy and passion.

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<v Speaker 1>And what we find is that when people connect with

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<v Speaker 1>who and what they really are, that tends to go

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<v Speaker 1>pretty well. You know. We find those who moved through

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<v Speaker 1>life doors open rather than close. We find that we

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<v Speaker 1>feel like we're swimming with the current instead of against it.

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<v Speaker 1>And uh, much of my work, both in in psychology

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<v Speaker 1>and and the organizations that I work with, has been

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<v Speaker 1>to just find the best possible tools to unlock that

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<v Speaker 1>true will awareness and people as efficiently as possible.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, beautifully said, anything else that anybody wants to ask

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<v Speaker 2>before keep going? Keep going on. I guess another one

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<v Speaker 2>that I wasn't thinking about bringing up. And you don't

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<v Speaker 2>want to make it boring here, but I just do

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<v Speaker 2>think it's be interesting for listeners of mind to hear

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<v Speaker 2>your opinion on this stuff. What would like that do withou?

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<v Speaker 2>Wilt that whole slogan? What would that mean to you?

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<v Speaker 2>How do you? What is that? What is that in

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<v Speaker 2>your life?

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<v Speaker 1>Okay? Yeah, so for clarity, do what thou wilt shall be.

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<v Speaker 1>The whole of the law is the basic statement of

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<v Speaker 1>Crowley's law of fu Lima. And that's simply, to me,

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<v Speaker 1>a statement that the way the universe works is that

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<v Speaker 1>the central law of unfolding life is that every everything

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<v Speaker 1>does what it is here to do. Everything proceeds according

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<v Speaker 1>to that basic nature. So it's the whole of the law.

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<v Speaker 1>And what we are here to do in our lifetimes

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<v Speaker 1>is again to strive to discover that and live it out.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's the work I did and continue to do,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, every day, striving to own that down. But basically,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what I was describing what happened with reading

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<v Speaker 1>Middle Pillar and Regardi in that moment, that was a

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<v Speaker 1>lightning bolt of I'm here to do this, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>not like I think it would be cool to do this,

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<v Speaker 1>or I could get rich doing this or something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's that this is my nature to do this in

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<v Speaker 1>this world. And the law part of it for me

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<v Speaker 1>is it better be my law to do what I'm

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<v Speaker 1>here to do, you know, otherwise I am going to

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<v Speaker 1>be swimming upstream and I am going to be, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>missing opportunities to two fully actualize myself in the world

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<v Speaker 1>and to help people doing that and so on. So

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<v Speaker 1>do what thou wilt for me is is do what

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<v Speaker 1>you're here to do in every moment you can.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you have I got anything dead? All right? Okay?

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<v Speaker 2>What do you what would you what would you say?

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<v Speaker 2>At the biggest beginner mistakes do you see in modern

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<v Speaker 2>occultism when people do approach the lima, M I'm trying

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<v Speaker 2>to put you on this body now?

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<v Speaker 1>I think one of them, of course, is relates to

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<v Speaker 1>what we're just talking about, which is that people approach

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<v Speaker 1>the lima thinking, oh, it means do whatever you want,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, And that's the opposite of what it means.

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<v Speaker 1>It means do the specific things that you are suited

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<v Speaker 1>to do, be the certain things you're suited to be,

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<v Speaker 1>and not other stuff, even if you want it, you know.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's actually quite the opposite of do whatever you want.

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<v Speaker 1>And of course that sort of misunderstanding has fueled a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the public misunderstanding of Croley the whole time

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<v Speaker 1>since he's been alive. Even the tabloids in the nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>twenties got on that high horse. So, oh, mistakes, I've

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<v Speaker 1>lost the question. They so One mistake is misapprehending what

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<v Speaker 1>do it though it means. Another is thinking that diving

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<v Speaker 1>right into advanced practices is a quicker way to get

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<v Speaker 1>to the result they want. Because if you get the

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<v Speaker 1>part of the basic training, which is you getting to

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<v Speaker 1>know how to move energy, contain it within yourself, channel

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<v Speaker 1>it where you want to manage your own physical and

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<v Speaker 1>energetic self, you skip all that stuff. No matter what

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<v Speaker 1>you try to do is not going to go as well,

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<v Speaker 1>and so what you end up doing. What those kind

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<v Speaker 1>of people end up doing often is getting to advanced stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>either getting confused or feeling screwed up by it because

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<v Speaker 1>they didn't know themselves very well and didn't know their

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<v Speaker 1>energetic system very well, and then having to say, I

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<v Speaker 1>guess I better go back and learn the basics. I

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<v Speaker 1>kind of liken it to deciding to be a poet

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<v Speaker 1>without knowing the alphabet yet. Sure you can try, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>but I think you know, you get the foundations first.

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<v Speaker 1>And that I say this not in a way that

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<v Speaker 1>it is to be rigid with it, like experimentation is fine.

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<v Speaker 1>You're always going to make mistakes, and we can always

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<v Speaker 1>try stuff that we haven't tried yet, and figure out

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<v Speaker 1>if we were ready. Maybe that's how we discover we weren't.

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<v Speaker 1>But but in general, I think that's a pretty common,

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<v Speaker 1>pretty common misapprehension that it'll be quicker if I head

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<v Speaker 1>right to the sexy stuff, but then it ends up

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<v Speaker 1>being actually slower because they have to circle back and

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<v Speaker 1>learn foundations. I guess in a similar vein, it's that

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<v Speaker 1>sort of it's that old saying about a little knowledge

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<v Speaker 1>being a dangerous thing. But people get a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>of meditative success or a little bit of ritual success,

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<v Speaker 1>or sometimes have the psychedelic experience that convinces them they're

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<v Speaker 1>at the end point to the beginning point, without the

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<v Speaker 1>infrastructure of the non drug related you know, muscles that

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<v Speaker 1>are needed for doing good magic and mystical work. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's kind of like early success bringing a false sense

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<v Speaker 1>of attainment and mastery when really it's just like they've

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<v Speaker 1>mastered step one of fifty, but since they haven't mastered

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<v Speaker 1>more than step one, they don't know what step two

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<v Speaker 1>mastery feels like. That's just a quick summary of you

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<v Speaker 1>have a question, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>If you mind sure so on that GANE, Then how

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<v Speaker 5>do you find it important to maybe before running into

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<v Speaker 5>the polemic work or the work of the Asterum Argentum.

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<v Speaker 5>Do you find it important to work on the hermetic

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<v Speaker 5>order of the Golden Dawn, lecturers and those things before

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<v Speaker 5>you start into that other stuff or is it do

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<v Speaker 5>you find okay just to skip right ahead or is

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<v Speaker 5>it skipping at all. That's something that always comes to me.

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<v Speaker 5>I always wonder about that, And then when I speak

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<v Speaker 5>to other people who are Theelamites, who have never read

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<v Speaker 5>any of the hermetic ord of the Golden Down, they

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<v Speaker 5>think that it's just gibberish, and so, yeah, I've always

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<v Speaker 5>wondered that, especially listening to your stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, great question. I don't think of that as a

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<v Speaker 1>sequential thing, where it's the Golden don stuff and then

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<v Speaker 1>you move on or move up to that thelemic stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>I think I can imagine a number of reasons why

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<v Speaker 1>that could be the impression. Probably most of them are

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<v Speaker 1>chronological in terms of the Golden Down pre dating thlemic work.

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<v Speaker 1>But what you got to remember is that Crowley's whole

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<v Speaker 1>basic training was in the Golden Down, and it is

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<v Speaker 1>embedded in the systems he was teaching the rest of

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<v Speaker 1>his life. You know, he's teaching the Golden don LBRP

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<v Speaker 1>in the nineteen forties, three years before he died. So

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think it's necessaryarticularly for people to pursue Golden

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<v Speaker 1>Down style magic in their personal practice or initiatory wise

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<v Speaker 1>before doing Thelemac work. It's the question of what are

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<v Speaker 1>they called to. The other thing that is really important

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<v Speaker 1>here is they go together like there's it's not Golden

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<v Speaker 1>Down or the Lima. The Temple of the Silver Star,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, which I administer, is very explicitly a Golden

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<v Speaker 1>Down patterned order that incorporates the Lima as its basic

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<v Speaker 1>operating principle. So it has woven with Thelema into all

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<v Speaker 1>of not all, but many of the landmarks that we

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<v Speaker 1>might expect from a Golden Down initiatory system, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think strengthens both in the process. So I've answered your

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<v Speaker 1>question and then some but hopefully that that's helpful.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that's very helpful. Thank you.

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<v Speaker 2>Going back to something you were saying earlier, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>even the thing that I haven't found myself that I

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<v Speaker 2>went back, I think it was because of listening to

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<v Speaker 2>you a podcast, and I've quoted it kind of. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sure I've screwed it up, but I have given you

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<v Speaker 2>the credit that I think you even say you I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know if it was in your book on your

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<v Speaker 2>podcast that I mean not sound glamorous, but honestly, you're

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<v Speaker 2>gonna have to learn how to meditate, like you stressed

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<v Speaker 2>out a lot, like a lot a lot. I think

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<v Speaker 2>like as a beginner thing. And I do think like

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<v Speaker 2>just from my experience, you know, jumping for me meditation

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<v Speaker 2>and getting that down was more important than jumping straight

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<v Speaker 2>into ritual work.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think I make that point sort of equally

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<v Speaker 1>around relaxation. Even just being able to sit down and

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<v Speaker 1>get your body relaxed and your mind in the moment

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<v Speaker 1>is a foundation for anything that comes after. So yeah, relaxation,

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<v Speaker 1>meditation or another basic beginner error I think is I

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<v Speaker 1>don't need to learn how to do that stuff. I

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<v Speaker 1>want to get right into the But if you're not

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<v Speaker 1>relaxed and you're not kind of present in yourself, it's

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<v Speaker 1>going to hamper your ritual.

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<v Speaker 2>Does anybody have any questions?

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<v Speaker 1>Well I had one.

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<v Speaker 4>So it sounds like the biggest beginner mistake is not

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<v Speaker 4>being able to tap into the authenticity that they're sort

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<v Speaker 4>of you know, trying to tap into. It's sort of

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<v Speaker 4>like leaping to the conclusion, well, this is the answer

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<v Speaker 4>without actually exploring what that means. That seems to be

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<v Speaker 4>a common problem, you know, across this is why people

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<v Speaker 4>go to you know, psychotherapists to begin with. Have you

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<v Speaker 4>found that the Thelema work has really helped you, I guess,

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<v Speaker 4>be a better therapist?

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<v Speaker 1>Certainly. I mean I think I'm a better human because

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<v Speaker 1>of it, and no surprise, better humans make better therapists

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<v Speaker 1>and everything else, probably, but more more your probable specific point.

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<v Speaker 1>I understanding that and really truly believing in my deepest

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<v Speaker 1>art and soul that every human being is divine at

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<v Speaker 1>their core, and anything that gets in the way of

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<v Speaker 1>that is the problem. It's not that their core is

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<v Speaker 1>the problem. The personality and all the things that it

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<v Speaker 1>tries to do to protect itself, all of the expectations

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<v Speaker 1>that get laid on us by family or society or

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<v Speaker 1>eventually ourselves, those are the things that obscure the true

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<v Speaker 1>will and the true kind of star at the center

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<v Speaker 1>of each person. So when I'm working with people in therapy,

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<v Speaker 1>even though we may never say the words true will

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<v Speaker 1>or the lima or anything remotely like that, what I

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<v Speaker 1>have an awareness of in the room is sort of

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<v Speaker 1>my meta model is that we're working on the personality.

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<v Speaker 1>In one example, working on the personality in order to

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<v Speaker 1>clear away those blockages that allow the real self to

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<v Speaker 1>shine through. And so often that might be what would

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<v Speaker 1>look like a conventional therapy session around looking at what

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<v Speaker 1>did your parents kind of want you to be and

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<v Speaker 1>you didn't want to be, and so we end up

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<v Speaker 1>talking about what was really under there, what was trying

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<v Speaker 1>to get out, you know, what was what was the

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<v Speaker 1>impulse that maybe got stifled a little bit. That's just

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<v Speaker 1>one specific kind of example, but it's that that's the

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<v Speaker 1>more common situation where we're not really talking about it

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<v Speaker 1>as a true will kind of process, but we're just

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<v Speaker 1>working on to a fly on the wall. Would appear

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<v Speaker 1>kind of a common therapy session, but you know, more

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<v Speaker 1>and more, because people know my work, they're coming to

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<v Speaker 1>me as a therapist or a life coach because they're

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<v Speaker 1>Theelamites or magicians or cult of some kind, and they

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<v Speaker 1>want a therapist who has a similar language and understanding

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<v Speaker 1>and worldview, much like a devoted Christian might seek out

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<v Speaker 1>a Christian counselor or something like that. So it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>a smaller pool at this point, but increasingly it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>the case that a lot of my therapy sessions might

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<v Speaker 1>include more overt discussion of magical principles or I'm just

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<v Speaker 1>trying to use the language that actually works and is

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<v Speaker 1>alive for the person I'm working with. Does that get

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<v Speaker 1>the question? Yeah? Very much great.

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<v Speaker 2>Did anybody else have anything that they wanted to ask

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<v Speaker 2>before we continue to take away?

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, I was going to kind of want to go

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<v Speaker 6>back to the idea of the whole of the law,

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<v Speaker 6>and then you have the book of the law. You see,

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<v Speaker 6>like within the Hebrew cosmology, they have the Torah being

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<v Speaker 6>the book of the law. As far as the individual

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<v Speaker 6>law of the self within the micro aspect, can you

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<v Speaker 6>expand upon that and how that coordinates and interacts with

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<v Speaker 6>the macro aspect of the law.

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<v Speaker 1>So I think there we're talking about We're still talking

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<v Speaker 1>about universal law. It's just is it expressed through the

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<v Speaker 1>individual or is it expressed in the world at large

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<v Speaker 1>or the universe at large. So I'll come back to

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<v Speaker 1>that idea that you think of any ecosystem you want,

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<v Speaker 1>and you will have all the components of that ecosystem,

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<v Speaker 1>the trees and the animals and the grass and everything

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<v Speaker 1>doing its best to do what it is destined to do.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what is it's programmed to do in a sense,

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<v Speaker 1>and that tends to work just fine. You know that

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<v Speaker 1>the problem is for humans that we get in our

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<v Speaker 1>own way with that, as I was kind of describing

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<v Speaker 1>with the therapy examples. But I think that the macrocosmic

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<v Speaker 1>expression of do what thou wilt is really just looking

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<v Speaker 1>around and seeing that. Of course the universe is doing

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<v Speaker 1>what it's supposed to do. It's it's evident that that's

422
00:26:21.039 --> 00:26:24.400
<v Speaker 1>the case because it is doing it. You know, things

423
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:27.920
<v Speaker 1>work a certain way, and that's not a different kind

424
00:26:27.960 --> 00:26:30.720
<v Speaker 1>of law than what we can work with as an individual.

425
00:26:30.759 --> 00:26:34.200
<v Speaker 1>It's simply we we determine what our role in that

426
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:37.720
<v Speaker 1>is when it's our microcosmic part in the greater work?

427
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:38.640
<v Speaker 5>Right?

428
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:42.039
<v Speaker 1>Nice? Yeah, good question?

429
00:26:43.519 --> 00:26:44.599
<v Speaker 2>Anybody else out anything?

430
00:26:46.839 --> 00:26:50.119
<v Speaker 5>Yeah? I do too. Before you move on, nick I,

431
00:26:50.119 --> 00:26:52.480
<v Speaker 5>I keep asking a bunch of a bunch of people

432
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:56.559
<v Speaker 5>in the ol cult, magicians in the different spheres, but

433
00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.960
<v Speaker 5>what do you think of the term self initiate, especially

434
00:27:01.000 --> 00:27:05.759
<v Speaker 5>for those who can't reach say inn a school like yourself,

435
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:08.359
<v Speaker 5>or an OTO or a golden dawn, because it seems

436
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:11.480
<v Speaker 5>like there's such a hatred and I know, self initiation

437
00:27:11.519 --> 00:27:14.119
<v Speaker 5>the term itself may even be a rough one, but

438
00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:18.480
<v Speaker 5>there seems to be like a closed system where some

439
00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:21.079
<v Speaker 5>think you can only ever go to a place and

440
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:23.839
<v Speaker 5>do it, and then there's those of us who maybe

441
00:27:24.119 --> 00:27:26.119
<v Speaker 5>don't have that ability. So I just kind of would

442
00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:28.000
<v Speaker 5>love to hear your take on those things.

443
00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:31.759
<v Speaker 1>Great, Well, one thing that is self evident is that

444
00:27:32.279 --> 00:27:37.759
<v Speaker 1>people across history have attained without a system, without finding

445
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:41.960
<v Speaker 1>a system of initiation, they they do it somehow. Okay,

446
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:44.839
<v Speaker 1>so let's get that off the table. Of course, it's

447
00:27:44.880 --> 00:27:49.640
<v Speaker 1>possible to have great gains in self understanding and in

448
00:27:49.799 --> 00:27:57.119
<v Speaker 1>initiatory experience and power through one's own work without formal

449
00:27:57.160 --> 00:28:04.200
<v Speaker 1>initiation in a group. That said, some people will thrive

450
00:28:04.319 --> 00:28:08.359
<v Speaker 1>more in a formal, structured setting that has kind of

451
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:12.440
<v Speaker 1>a not just a lineage, but also is what we

452
00:28:12.519 --> 00:28:15.759
<v Speaker 1>might call a contacted order, that there are interplane contacts

453
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:20.319
<v Speaker 1>that actually, in my experience, quite literally move through the

454
00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:22.880
<v Speaker 1>work we do and make it a specific kind of

455
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:30.319
<v Speaker 1>initiatory experience or its members. You're not going to possibly

456
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:35.880
<v Speaker 1>get that without contact with that organization. That doesn't mean

457
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:39.440
<v Speaker 1>any given organization is the right one, you know, But

458
00:28:39.640 --> 00:28:42.880
<v Speaker 1>for a specific person it might be the right one,

459
00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:46.720
<v Speaker 1>and for another person it might be the absolute wrong one,

460
00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:49.200
<v Speaker 1>and they need to do it themselves in order to

461
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:51.519
<v Speaker 1>get the maximum gains, or they need a different organization,

462
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:56.599
<v Speaker 1>a different tradition, or whatever. So I think the efficacy

463
00:28:56.599 --> 00:29:01.079
<v Speaker 1>of self initiation depends a lot on the specific person

464
00:29:01.200 --> 00:29:05.079
<v Speaker 1>doing it and what they're what they're cut out for,

465
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:10.000
<v Speaker 1>what their prior experience is, what their innate skills are,

466
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:14.240
<v Speaker 1>or you know, what their innate blind spots are. The

467
00:29:14.279 --> 00:29:17.359
<v Speaker 1>success of that kind of endeavor is really going to

468
00:29:17.400 --> 00:29:21.359
<v Speaker 1>have a lot of those variables involved. But there may

469
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.559
<v Speaker 1>be other angles on this that you wanted to hear about.

470
00:29:23.559 --> 00:29:25.079
<v Speaker 1>But that's that's my first thought.

471
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:30.240
<v Speaker 5>Nice, No, that's that does it answers my question. I'll

472
00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:32.680
<v Speaker 5>have more in the future, But that's thank you.

473
00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:37.000
<v Speaker 1>I guess I would only add briefly that I think

474
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.079
<v Speaker 1>there is a problem if someone does self initiation with

475
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:43.440
<v Speaker 1>let's say you get a self initiation in the Golden

476
00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:48.559
<v Speaker 1>Dawn book. Okay, it would be a mistake to do that.

477
00:29:49.079 --> 00:29:51.920
<v Speaker 1>You could have great results, okay, but it would be

478
00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:54.559
<v Speaker 1>a mistake to do that and think you are getting

479
00:29:54.640 --> 00:29:59.400
<v Speaker 1>the same experience as a formal in person initiation with

480
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:02.160
<v Speaker 1>a goal with down type group. So as long as

481
00:30:02.160 --> 00:30:05.359
<v Speaker 1>people understand it's not the same, but it could be

482
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:06.960
<v Speaker 1>equally powerful for some people.

483
00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:10.240
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's into my head when you say that, is

484
00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:14.720
<v Speaker 5>you must be even have even more critical thinking and

485
00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:17.720
<v Speaker 5>being super objective and maybe kind of hard on yourself

486
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:20.559
<v Speaker 5>a little more because nobody is around there to make

487
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:22.839
<v Speaker 5>sure that they kind of like the like the kung

488
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:24.839
<v Speaker 5>fu teacher with the whip, you got to kind of

489
00:30:24.839 --> 00:30:28.759
<v Speaker 5>be your own right whip. Yeah, right.

490
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:30.880
<v Speaker 1>And one of the other great dangers there is the

491
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:34.680
<v Speaker 1>self deludon that can come from thinking you're doing it

492
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:38.599
<v Speaker 1>all right when really you don't have anyone there to say, actually,

493
00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.119
<v Speaker 1>you know, the tradition is a little bit different than that.

494
00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:45.640
<v Speaker 1>Try it this way, you know, or confirming that you've

495
00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:49.400
<v Speaker 1>had some kind of milestone mets or you know those things.

496
00:30:49.720 --> 00:30:51.960
<v Speaker 1>What I'm speaking to you now is really the benefits

497
00:30:52.000 --> 00:30:54.599
<v Speaker 1>of having a teacher of any kind, someone who's done

498
00:30:54.680 --> 00:30:56.119
<v Speaker 1>the work already.

499
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:57.680
<v Speaker 5>Nice, okay, awesome, thank you.

500
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:01.599
<v Speaker 4>Well isn't that the poison bill of a personality that

501
00:31:02.200 --> 00:31:04.079
<v Speaker 4>is a self starter to begin with? I mean, they

502
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:06.319
<v Speaker 4>have very little self reflection, which means, you know, go

503
00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:07.599
<v Speaker 4>head first into bottle.

504
00:31:08.440 --> 00:31:14.119
<v Speaker 1>So but is it ready ready? Fire? Aim? Right?

505
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:18.279
<v Speaker 2>Anyway, I got anything else before I go on with

506
00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:22.799
<v Speaker 2>other questions? All right, kind of another basic one. Well,

507
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:24.759
<v Speaker 2>I guess not too basic, but I think for my

508
00:31:24.839 --> 00:31:26.400
<v Speaker 2>listeners would be very good for them to hear you

509
00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:29.400
<v Speaker 2>take on it. What is the whole idea with the

510
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:31.759
<v Speaker 2>Holy Guardian Angel and when it comes to ceremonial magic?

511
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:38.759
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so if you if you check out the Temple

512
00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:43.319
<v Speaker 1>of Silver Star YouTube channel, I did an archive talk

513
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:46.279
<v Speaker 1>on there on this that I would for long form

514
00:31:46.319 --> 00:31:48.559
<v Speaker 1>discussion of this, I would direct people to. And of

515
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.759
<v Speaker 1>course there's a Living Flame, a book, chapter and podcast

516
00:31:50.759 --> 00:31:54.240
<v Speaker 1>episode on this. Basically, the Holy Guardian Angel is a

517
00:31:54.319 --> 00:31:58.480
<v Speaker 1>term that presisted curly, but he latched onto that term

518
00:31:58.519 --> 00:32:02.599
<v Speaker 1>as a way of describing whatever it is that we

519
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:08.559
<v Speaker 1>connect with when we attain cosmic consciousness and awareness and

520
00:32:08.599 --> 00:32:14.519
<v Speaker 1>full conscious awareness of true will. So there's no way

521
00:32:14.519 --> 00:32:17.839
<v Speaker 1>to talk about this without being reductionistic or using terms

522
00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:20.640
<v Speaker 1>that may predispose people to think of it in certain ways,

523
00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:27.880
<v Speaker 1>like cosmic consciousness or whatever. But at some point, well,

524
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:31.359
<v Speaker 1>let me start over the central goal of all of

525
00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:35.400
<v Speaker 1>this training. In both AA Temple is Overstar and Croley's

526
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:38.319
<v Speaker 1>conception of what we're here to do on the planet,

527
00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:43.440
<v Speaker 1>the central goal is to strip away those barriers to

528
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:49.079
<v Speaker 1>full conscious awareness of our divine self and of our

529
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:56.079
<v Speaker 1>true will. And that awareness, when it comes, typically eventually,

530
00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:02.799
<v Speaker 1>pretty climactically, is very very often accompanied by the sense

531
00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:08.759
<v Speaker 1>of presence and connection to a being that is beyond ourselves. Now,

532
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:10.519
<v Speaker 1>there are may be some people who connect with this

533
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:14.079
<v Speaker 1>as actually, this is just a part of my brain,

534
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:17.240
<v Speaker 1>or this is just my higher self or whatever. I

535
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:20.160
<v Speaker 1>don't The good news is, once you get there, you

536
00:33:20.200 --> 00:33:21.960
<v Speaker 1>don't need anyone to tell you what it is because

537
00:33:21.960 --> 00:33:27.359
<v Speaker 1>you're experiencing it. But the many many people you know

538
00:33:27.799 --> 00:33:31.119
<v Speaker 1>experience this as a myself included, experience this as a

539
00:33:31.319 --> 00:33:38.359
<v Speaker 1>as a as a tremendous overturning of the sense of

540
00:33:38.440 --> 00:33:41.599
<v Speaker 1>who we are and who we have been in relation

541
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:50.680
<v Speaker 1>to this Holy Guardian Angel that we encounter. When this

542
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:54.920
<v Speaker 1>has occurred, our next task is to work even harder

543
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:58.160
<v Speaker 1>to build a life that honors the truth that we've discovered.

544
00:33:58.559 --> 00:34:04.759
<v Speaker 1>There So, in the AA system, the knowledge and conversation

545
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:06.880
<v Speaker 1>of the Holy Guardian Angel that's the term that Curley

546
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:15.239
<v Speaker 1>used for that breakthrough colog and conversation in the AA

547
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:19.440
<v Speaker 1>system that's attained at this the grade the Indus story

548
00:34:19.480 --> 00:34:22.519
<v Speaker 1>grade of the fareth in the center of the tree.

549
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:26.880
<v Speaker 1>And then the work beyond that is, now, let's make

550
00:34:26.920 --> 00:34:30.039
<v Speaker 1>a life that lets me live this out with as

551
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:33.480
<v Speaker 1>few obstacles as possible and with the greatest deficiency as possible,

552
00:34:34.039 --> 00:34:37.519
<v Speaker 1>and then we take it from there. So the HDA

553
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:43.400
<v Speaker 1>is the power slash entity slash aspect of the universe

554
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:49.400
<v Speaker 1>slash personal god whatever that enables all of this to happen.

555
00:34:50.760 --> 00:34:53.719
<v Speaker 1>You could also think of it as like the I

556
00:34:53.719 --> 00:34:56.480
<v Speaker 1>had a friend describe this this way to me, which

557
00:34:56.519 --> 00:34:59.920
<v Speaker 1>is always stuck that the sun is shining, but there

558
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:03.199
<v Speaker 1>there's one ray that's aimed right at you, and that's

559
00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:07.880
<v Speaker 1>the HDA, And so you find that and you tune

560
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:12.559
<v Speaker 1>into that like a radio finding that one station, and

561
00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:13.840
<v Speaker 1>that opens up your path.

562
00:35:17.320 --> 00:35:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much. That was great. Anybody got anything

563
00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:26.119
<v Speaker 2>before I go? I want to add to that, all right.

564
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:28.920
<v Speaker 4>It's just very Egyptian symbolism that popped into my head

565
00:35:28.960 --> 00:35:31.960
<v Speaker 4>with that, with the idea of the raw coming down.

566
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.800
<v Speaker 4>But there is something like that all throughout history when

567
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:38.159
<v Speaker 4>you're talking about the mystery school tradition. Right going back

568
00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:40.599
<v Speaker 4>to my favorite book, The Golden Ass, at the very

569
00:35:40.719 --> 00:35:43.920
<v Speaker 4>end he's saved by Isis and then he dedicates his

570
00:35:44.000 --> 00:35:46.559
<v Speaker 4>life to being a free lawyer for the poor. And

571
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:50.360
<v Speaker 4>so the idea is, you move past this point of

572
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:54.079
<v Speaker 4>initiation and figure out a way to implement the type

573
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:58.199
<v Speaker 4>of love that you felt well connecting to that different

574
00:35:58.360 --> 00:35:59.079
<v Speaker 4>state of being.

575
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:05.320
<v Speaker 1>And in mythology, the whole idea of the hero figure

576
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:07.880
<v Speaker 1>going off and discovering the gold or the treasurer or

577
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:11.119
<v Speaker 1>getting the magic power whatever is meaningless until they bring

578
00:36:11.159 --> 00:36:13.760
<v Speaker 1>it back to society and do something with it, you know.

579
00:36:14.119 --> 00:36:17.320
<v Speaker 1>So it is about do the inner work bring it

580
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:24.559
<v Speaker 1>to the world. And Carl Young's an interesting example. I

581
00:36:24.599 --> 00:36:28.000
<v Speaker 1>don't know who here or watching has looked at his

582
00:36:28.039 --> 00:36:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Red Book, but those were early, clearly mystical experiences for

583
00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:38.760
<v Speaker 1>him that were followed by him building an entire career

584
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:41.800
<v Speaker 1>based on trying to make sense of those things and

585
00:36:41.840 --> 00:36:44.679
<v Speaker 1>bringing those truths as best he could to his work

586
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:47.519
<v Speaker 1>in the world. So he never termed it a knowledge

587
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:51.639
<v Speaker 1>of conversation with the Holy Guardian Angel. But that's what

588
00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:53.960
<v Speaker 1>that looks like. To me, and so we can probably

589
00:36:53.960 --> 00:36:55.639
<v Speaker 1>find any number of examples like that.

590
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:00.719
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, and that's almost like the forgotten part of the

591
00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:04.639
<v Speaker 5>mono myth or the hero's journey is the return aspect.

592
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:07.880
<v Speaker 5>So it's like we always think that it's everything until

593
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:10.280
<v Speaker 5>and then you're you're just there, and it's like, no,

594
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:13.039
<v Speaker 5>you have to bring it back home. And then after

595
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:15.400
<v Speaker 5>you bring it back home, you have to return on

596
00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:17.880
<v Speaker 5>the journey again a changed person.

597
00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:21.719
<v Speaker 4>That's when the credits are rolling. So we don't need

598
00:37:21.719 --> 00:37:27.159
<v Speaker 4>to worry about that.

599
00:37:27.239 --> 00:37:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Now.

600
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:31.920
<v Speaker 6>I was going to say, I've heard the ideas of

601
00:37:33.239 --> 00:37:39.599
<v Speaker 6>the lemma in comparison to the ideas of platonic thinking

602
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:44.400
<v Speaker 6>and the ideas of the individual man building himself up

603
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.840
<v Speaker 6>to make the society as a whole better. Do you

604
00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:53.760
<v Speaker 6>think that the lemma on some from from the individual

605
00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:57.559
<v Speaker 6>self exploration and opening up on a higher level? Do

606
00:37:57.599 --> 00:38:02.320
<v Speaker 6>you think it is aimed at utopian in goal.

607
00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:08.239
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's true to the extent that we understand.

608
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:11.760
<v Speaker 1>That doesn't mean that the world would then be perceived

609
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.719
<v Speaker 1>by every person as perfect, right, Okay, that's never going

610
00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:21.639
<v Speaker 1>to happen because we're always going to have personalities. The

611
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.199
<v Speaker 1>only thing that likes or dislikes is the human ego,

612
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.840
<v Speaker 1>and it's very good at it, so it's always trying

613
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:31.199
<v Speaker 1>to do it, and so things will always be displeasing

614
00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:33.280
<v Speaker 1>no matter what. But yeah, I think that the idea

615
00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:38.039
<v Speaker 1>is as each of us does as much self development

616
00:38:38.039 --> 00:38:40.559
<v Speaker 1>as we can than the world itself. You know, we

617
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:43.639
<v Speaker 1>contribute to the world being a more harmonious place where

618
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:51.400
<v Speaker 1>there's less unnecessary conflict and people aren't as blinded by

619
00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:56.599
<v Speaker 1>their their confusion about who they are and there and

620
00:38:56.639 --> 00:39:02.840
<v Speaker 1>their projections of negativity, negativity to others, and just all

621
00:39:02.920 --> 00:39:06.239
<v Speaker 1>the stuff that makes us take the easy way out

622
00:39:06.280 --> 00:39:10.280
<v Speaker 1>and not grow ourselves. But when we each do that, yeah,

623
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.880
<v Speaker 1>I think that the world becomes the place that it

624
00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:18.880
<v Speaker 1>can be. Carl Young was asked to incessantly come back

625
00:39:18.880 --> 00:39:23.559
<v Speaker 1>to Young but he was asked in an interview around

626
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:26.119
<v Speaker 1>the fifties or so if there was Cold War, right,

627
00:39:26.199 --> 00:39:29.920
<v Speaker 1>so everything was scary. Nothing, it's not scary now, but

628
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:35.599
<v Speaker 1>it was scary then too, And he said he was asked,

629
00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:38.199
<v Speaker 1>is there any hope for humanity? And his answer was

630
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:44.559
<v Speaker 1>if enough individuals do their inner work right right, And

631
00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:48.119
<v Speaker 1>that's that's my operating principle every day of my life right.

632
00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.719
<v Speaker 6>In a certain sense, it kind of ties in with

633
00:39:52.760 --> 00:39:57.880
<v Speaker 6>this perennialist idea of through the ages, the mystery schools

634
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:02.039
<v Speaker 6>coming into even the Catholic Church schenthilemma and kind of

635
00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:05.119
<v Speaker 6>the whole ultimate angle, you know, like Hinduism with the

636
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:08.800
<v Speaker 6>Cali Yugos sinking down and then rising back up into

637
00:40:08.920 --> 00:40:11.800
<v Speaker 6>that attainment of the sun at the high peak of

638
00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:12.280
<v Speaker 6>the mountain.

639
00:40:13.159 --> 00:40:19.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the perennial linking out of the

640
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:25.360
<v Speaker 1>perennial aspect of that, the idea that there is one

641
00:40:25.480 --> 00:40:29.920
<v Speaker 1>central truth that all paths are meant to are designed

642
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:34.440
<v Speaker 1>to kind of strive toward and illuminate. And the mistake

643
00:40:34.679 --> 00:40:38.400
<v Speaker 1>is to say to someone else doing it a different

644
00:40:38.400 --> 00:40:42.480
<v Speaker 1>way that they've got it wrong, and then you get

645
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:47.679
<v Speaker 1>to have holly wars and things. But it's the more

646
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:49.760
<v Speaker 1>we realize we're all aiming at the same thing, and

647
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:53.079
<v Speaker 1>you know what, if here's my idea, we get simultaneously

648
00:40:55.000 --> 00:41:00.719
<v Speaker 1>get everyone in the world to have the awareness that

649
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:05.280
<v Speaker 1>what if the actuality is there's no choice but to

650
00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:10.679
<v Speaker 1>all be worshiping the same God, and that's just the truth.

651
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:14.280
<v Speaker 1>And then anything anyone is doing is their best approximation

652
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:17.400
<v Speaker 1>of that no one instantly, no one is in disagreement

653
00:41:17.880 --> 00:41:21.400
<v Speaker 1>about about that. If everyone could just get that it's

654
00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:27.400
<v Speaker 1>all stories about the one thing, and that we don't

655
00:41:27.880 --> 00:41:29.639
<v Speaker 1>need to point fingers that who's doing it wrong?

656
00:41:30.119 --> 00:41:33.000
<v Speaker 6>Right, And that kind of ties into the ideas I

657
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:36.880
<v Speaker 6>was trying to kind of poke at with the the

658
00:41:37.000 --> 00:41:38.719
<v Speaker 6>larger aspects.

659
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Of the law.

660
00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:41.840
<v Speaker 1>Uh huh, yeah, I see that.

661
00:41:42.320 --> 00:41:45.400
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, And that almost reminds me of what a

662
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:49.519
<v Speaker 5>Naughton was doing with having everyone come back and worshiping

663
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:50.239
<v Speaker 5>the sun.

664
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:54.880
<v Speaker 1>Right good. Yeah, And of course I'm not advancing the

665
00:41:54.920 --> 00:42:00.559
<v Speaker 1>idea that there is a like amount of theism in

666
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:03.199
<v Speaker 1>the sense of, now here's the doctrine of the one

667
00:42:03.239 --> 00:42:04.800
<v Speaker 1>true religion, right right?

668
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:05.039
<v Speaker 6>Right?

669
00:42:05.199 --> 00:42:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Oh for sure, for sure, perhaps do what they will,

670
00:42:09.119 --> 00:42:12.639
<v Speaker 1>because that's just talking about truth. You know that the

671
00:42:13.119 --> 00:42:16.119
<v Speaker 1>doctrine is truth and the paths are myriad.

672
00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.760
<v Speaker 4>As we say, well, I feel like this is that

673
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:23.119
<v Speaker 4>been the downfall of syncretism for so many times over

674
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:25.599
<v Speaker 4>the ages, with the Romans invading the Picks and with

675
00:42:25.719 --> 00:42:30.960
<v Speaker 4>the Christianity invading everybody, is that once you've syncretized enough

676
00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:34.119
<v Speaker 4>to where you think we've got the philosophical basis for everything,

677
00:42:34.800 --> 00:42:38.119
<v Speaker 4>all distinctiveness goes away from the people who were once

678
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:41.239
<v Speaker 4>not a part of that group, and so it becomes

679
00:42:41.440 --> 00:42:44.880
<v Speaker 4>a push pull of identity at that point, and you know,

680
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:49.000
<v Speaker 4>something better is out there than just you know, because

681
00:42:49.159 --> 00:42:52.239
<v Speaker 4>Theosophy tried this, and you know, Carley came out of

682
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:55.559
<v Speaker 4>the Theosophist movement, and you know, so many other things,

683
00:42:56.039 --> 00:43:00.679
<v Speaker 4>and it gets blamed for everything because obviously this secretism

684
00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:05.559
<v Speaker 4>is changing the way people think in a cohesive way

685
00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:10.239
<v Speaker 4>instead of a you know, dualistic or multipolar way that

686
00:43:10.800 --> 00:43:13.079
<v Speaker 4>a lot of people would prefer because they want to

687
00:43:13.119 --> 00:43:17.000
<v Speaker 4>remain distinct. And I think that distinction really hasn't been

688
00:43:17.039 --> 00:43:20.480
<v Speaker 4>honored by American society in a lot of ways. Across

689
00:43:20.559 --> 00:43:24.079
<v Speaker 4>the world. It's like everybody is now just individual, replaceable units,

690
00:43:24.360 --> 00:43:26.679
<v Speaker 4>and we're seeing the rebellion to that right now.

691
00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:29.840
<v Speaker 6>So it goes really deep crystallization.

692
00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:36.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, one question I didn't want to ask. I mean,

693
00:43:36.360 --> 00:43:39.679
<v Speaker 2>you've pretty spent spent years bridging clinical psychology at the

694
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:43.480
<v Speaker 2>limit practice. What kind of first convinced you that these

695
00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:45.320
<v Speaker 2>two can work together be along together?

696
00:43:50.360 --> 00:43:56.119
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, obviously each human has component parts that

697
00:43:56.159 --> 00:44:00.159
<v Speaker 1>we can label different ways. But the ego, the in

698
00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:03.639
<v Speaker 1>the psychology, the ruoc, you know, the part of us

699
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:08.480
<v Speaker 1>that is that needs to interface with the outer world

700
00:44:08.599 --> 00:44:13.760
<v Speaker 1>and to have opinions and have goals and plans and

701
00:44:14.199 --> 00:44:17.039
<v Speaker 1>think of ourselves as an individual that's different from that

702
00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:22.280
<v Speaker 1>other person over there. All that sort of stuff that's

703
00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:24.960
<v Speaker 1>not going away. So it's inevitable that we've got to

704
00:44:24.960 --> 00:44:29.800
<v Speaker 1>make that all of that have some degree of transparency

705
00:44:29.880 --> 00:44:31.719
<v Speaker 1>so that we can see the light that's behind it.

706
00:44:33.159 --> 00:44:36.599
<v Speaker 1>So I whether someone works with a therapist to do

707
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:39.760
<v Speaker 1>that or just figures it out themselves, they've got to

708
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:43.800
<v Speaker 1>do that. Otherwise their magic is going to be their

709
00:44:43.840 --> 00:44:47.360
<v Speaker 1>whole path is going to be skewed based on their

710
00:44:47.360 --> 00:44:51.920
<v Speaker 1>blind spots, on their natural predispositions, on their underdeveloped areas

711
00:44:51.960 --> 00:44:54.840
<v Speaker 1>that aren't ever developed, you know. So that's one reason

712
00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:58.719
<v Speaker 1>why systemization of the initiatory process is so helpful for

713
00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:03.360
<v Speaker 1>a lot of people is that it it cultivates all

714
00:45:03.400 --> 00:45:06.639
<v Speaker 1>the aspects of the self and helps to remove the

715
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:11.400
<v Speaker 1>blind spots. So for me, it just seemed inevitable that.

716
00:45:11.719 --> 00:45:14.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I was already studying psychologies, but but it's

717
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:18.480
<v Speaker 1>like having having arrived at the place where I was

718
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.559
<v Speaker 1>in the middle of starting a psychology career, but also

719
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:26.840
<v Speaker 1>having this huge nuclear blast of awareness about the lima

720
00:45:26.960 --> 00:45:31.360
<v Speaker 1>and and the opportunities for self development there that it

721
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:36.039
<v Speaker 1>just for me personally just became an impossibility that they

722
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:39.880
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't be working together in my life.

723
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:47.119
<v Speaker 2>Thank you? How should how should you? How should practitioners

724
00:45:47.119 --> 00:45:50.159
<v Speaker 2>think about shadow work and athlemic context without turning it

725
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:51.480
<v Speaker 2>into a self obsession.

726
00:45:53.599 --> 00:45:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Oh, people will be self obsessed anyway, That's inevitable. The

727
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:05.239
<v Speaker 1>trick is to do it well. Uh. I think you know,

728
00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:11.199
<v Speaker 1>shadow is any any unacknowledged aspect of ourselves, and that

729
00:46:11.239 --> 00:46:15.119
<v Speaker 1>can be positive, that can be negative. I've grown up

730
00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:21.480
<v Speaker 1>within a system where monitoring is started by philoseculers or

731
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:29.840
<v Speaker 1>a Merril my teacher and and and her eyes. She

732
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:33.559
<v Speaker 1>put in her training system from the very beginning that we, uh,

733
00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:37.199
<v Speaker 1>we must be monitoring our psychological projections on a daily

734
00:46:37.239 --> 00:46:42.800
<v Speaker 1>basis in order to learn about what our shadow projections

735
00:46:42.800 --> 00:46:45.719
<v Speaker 1>are and what our projections are generally that that we

736
00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:50.239
<v Speaker 1>bye by watching how we react to things, how we

737
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:57.800
<v Speaker 1>get emotional, how we overreact. You know, we can we

738
00:46:57.800 --> 00:47:00.400
<v Speaker 1>can get the kind of self knowledge that's not available

739
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:03.719
<v Speaker 1>if we only look at like we're just navel gazing

740
00:47:03.760 --> 00:47:06.400
<v Speaker 1>about who am I and what do I like? And

741
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:08.480
<v Speaker 1>we don't look at the potential dark sides of that.

742
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:11.400
<v Speaker 1>In terms of these projections, we're missing a whole bunch

743
00:47:11.400 --> 00:47:14.440
<v Speaker 1>of of work that can be so helpful and so

744
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:20.440
<v Speaker 1>in our system now, you know, as we teach it

745
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:24.760
<v Speaker 1>in Temple of Silver Star, we have people doing part

746
00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:26.920
<v Speaker 1>of this part of their daily diary work. They monitor

747
00:47:26.920 --> 00:47:33.199
<v Speaker 1>psychological projections. They are therefore stripping away therefore and thereby

748
00:47:33.280 --> 00:47:37.280
<v Speaker 1>stripping away those filters and the mud that's all over

749
00:47:37.320 --> 00:47:41.280
<v Speaker 1>the lens, you know, to use that example again, that

750
00:47:41.400 --> 00:47:44.679
<v Speaker 1>is blocking them from seeing their truth self more and

751
00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:48.440
<v Speaker 1>more clearly. But the shadow work is really just one

752
00:47:48.440 --> 00:47:53.480
<v Speaker 1>example of projection work in many ways, but more broadly

753
00:47:54.880 --> 00:47:57.159
<v Speaker 1>out of work in terms of understanding of what is

754
00:47:57.199 --> 00:48:01.400
<v Speaker 1>it we're pushing out of awareness? Like if we live

755
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:05.559
<v Speaker 1>if we live in a box you know, called me,

756
00:48:06.320 --> 00:48:09.280
<v Speaker 1>and we decide we're just going to live in this

757
00:48:09.400 --> 00:48:12.480
<v Speaker 1>corner of it because we don't want to go in

758
00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:16.000
<v Speaker 1>that part that makes us uncomfortable, then we're living in

759
00:48:16.039 --> 00:48:20.800
<v Speaker 1>a tinier world. And so for fullness of self and life,

760
00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:24.679
<v Speaker 1>we have to accept all of ourselves, even if our

761
00:48:25.159 --> 00:48:29.559
<v Speaker 1>personality doesn't like it, So that's that's the bigger kind

762
00:48:29.559 --> 00:48:31.599
<v Speaker 1>of picture of why do shadow work.

763
00:48:33.000 --> 00:48:36.159
<v Speaker 4>Well, it's funny in the looks MAXI community. I know

764
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:39.320
<v Speaker 4>it's kind of become a convenient trope or meme online,

765
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.239
<v Speaker 4>but they talk about courtosol spiking, right, And so if

766
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:45.719
<v Speaker 4>you're out at a club and you're talking to somebody

767
00:48:45.719 --> 00:48:49.400
<v Speaker 4>and then somebody else mogs you or makes themselves look

768
00:48:49.440 --> 00:48:52.159
<v Speaker 4>better than you, your court is all is supposed to spike.

769
00:48:52.360 --> 00:48:56.920
<v Speaker 4>And this is like a convenient way of biologically analyzing

770
00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:00.280
<v Speaker 4>yourself instead of actually looking at what it is that

771
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:04.320
<v Speaker 4>makes you feel that way. Right, So it's replacing embarrassment

772
00:49:04.440 --> 00:49:06.559
<v Speaker 4>with a biological process.

773
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:07.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

774
00:49:08.639 --> 00:49:15.159
<v Speaker 6>Interesting, Yeah, but also learning to control that reaction as

775
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:18.800
<v Speaker 6>far as how you let things affect you.

776
00:49:20.119 --> 00:49:22.719
<v Speaker 1>Yep. At the good part of that, the good news

777
00:49:22.760 --> 00:49:26.119
<v Speaker 1>there is that as we monitor our projections, that tends

778
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:29.960
<v Speaker 1>to happen pretty naturally. Like we start to realize, oh,

779
00:49:30.119 --> 00:49:34.760
<v Speaker 1>every time Joe starts talking and I and I get annoyed,

780
00:49:34.800 --> 00:49:38.320
<v Speaker 1>it's because I'm insecure about him being smarter than me.

781
00:49:38.639 --> 00:49:41.880
<v Speaker 1>So now I realize that about myself, and when I'm

782
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:44.559
<v Speaker 1>around Joe, I kind of go in the room knowing

783
00:49:44.599 --> 00:49:48.480
<v Speaker 1>that you know so, and that's kind of an organic

784
00:49:49.519 --> 00:49:52.800
<v Speaker 1>process where we just it's harder to act stupid when

785
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:58.239
<v Speaker 1>we know it's stupid when we've done the work. Not

786
00:49:58.360 --> 00:50:01.840
<v Speaker 1>that we'll be one hundred percent successful with that for sure,

787
00:50:05.280 --> 00:50:06.880
<v Speaker 1>as my friends can attest.

788
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:11.239
<v Speaker 2>Does anybody have any questions before I ask you another one.

789
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:15.719
<v Speaker 3>Before we move on to I actually do, and it goes,

790
00:50:15.800 --> 00:50:20.440
<v Speaker 3>it goes along the path of is more towards a

791
00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:26.760
<v Speaker 3>solitary magician. It's it's I can't say it's easy, it's

792
00:50:28.239 --> 00:50:30.679
<v Speaker 3>it's a little bit easier when you're in a group setting,

793
00:50:31.039 --> 00:50:34.039
<v Speaker 3>either you're worth dealing with the AA sol Star or

794
00:50:34.119 --> 00:50:36.639
<v Speaker 3>the Golden Dawn or anything like that. For the solitary

795
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:41.000
<v Speaker 3>person working their way up to tiffer Off on the

796
00:50:41.000 --> 00:50:45.000
<v Speaker 3>tree of life, sometimes what they're trying to strip away,

797
00:50:45.079 --> 00:50:48.960
<v Speaker 3>what they're trying to face, is too much. And unfortunately,

798
00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:51.679
<v Speaker 3>if they want to go to therapy. You said it

799
00:50:51.719 --> 00:50:53.679
<v Speaker 3>yourself earlier that the.

800
00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:54.199
<v Speaker 1>Pool of.

801
00:50:55.679 --> 00:51:00.840
<v Speaker 3>Ceremony ceremonial magic psychologists that are more familiar with it

802
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:03.800
<v Speaker 3>and more accepting with it are hard to find. But

803
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:07.039
<v Speaker 3>I do feel that along the lines you probably do

804
00:51:07.159 --> 00:51:09.280
<v Speaker 3>need to find a therapist to help you alone you

805
00:51:09.320 --> 00:51:12.559
<v Speaker 3>need help along the way sometimes because sometimes things are

806
00:51:12.599 --> 00:51:17.400
<v Speaker 3>too burdensome for you to deal with. How would you

807
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:23.559
<v Speaker 3>recommend someone approach someone who a therapist that may or

808
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:28.360
<v Speaker 3>may not accept their way of belief system despite the

809
00:51:28.400 --> 00:51:30.559
<v Speaker 3>fact that this is what they're trying to deal with

810
00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:30.960
<v Speaker 3>at that.

811
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:34.960
<v Speaker 1>Time, right, So part of the answer to that is

812
00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:40.079
<v Speaker 1>that there's probably ninety percent of what needs to be

813
00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:43.320
<v Speaker 1>done and be done without even mentioning to a therapist

814
00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:46.360
<v Speaker 1>that we're interested in the occult path. It's just that

815
00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:51.320
<v Speaker 1>that's just abobout being human. And of course it feels

816
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:54.079
<v Speaker 1>better to have a therapist that could actually share a

817
00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:57.519
<v Speaker 1>language like that and would understand that. One of the

818
00:51:57.559 --> 00:52:01.320
<v Speaker 1>reasons I'm here working on myself with you, therapist, is

819
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:04.840
<v Speaker 1>that I am on a self an initiatory path I

820
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:08.199
<v Speaker 1>and I am trying to, you know, take this to

821
00:52:08.360 --> 00:52:11.800
<v Speaker 1>a more mystical place and so on. But even without that,

822
00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:14.199
<v Speaker 1>and it's still going to be so valuable to have

823
00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:17.559
<v Speaker 1>someone sitting in the room with you. Again, even if

824
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:22.519
<v Speaker 1>they don't have any idea of an occult path being

825
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:24.519
<v Speaker 1>part of your life, it's going to be so useful

826
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:27.239
<v Speaker 1>to have another person sitting there reflecting with you on

827
00:52:28.159 --> 00:52:32.079
<v Speaker 1>your strengths and weaknesses and growth patterns and blind spots

828
00:52:32.159 --> 00:52:34.920
<v Speaker 1>and shadows stuff and all of that. So I think

829
00:52:34.920 --> 00:52:37.119
<v Speaker 1>the main thing in seeking out a therapist that would

830
00:52:37.159 --> 00:52:39.519
<v Speaker 1>be compatible for an occultist is just to at least

831
00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:43.920
<v Speaker 1>make sure that they're not that they're not going to

832
00:52:43.960 --> 00:52:49.679
<v Speaker 1>have a worldview that is like antagonistic to alternative spirituality,

833
00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:53.079
<v Speaker 1>so that if you if it just comes up casually

834
00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:56.400
<v Speaker 1>that you know you're a pagan or a occultist or

835
00:52:56.400 --> 00:52:59.039
<v Speaker 1>a gold Dominsian or whatever, that you know, they're not

836
00:52:59.079 --> 00:53:05.119
<v Speaker 1>going to think that is pathology. And fortunately, in today's world,

837
00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:10.239
<v Speaker 1>I think most therapists had enough breadth of training and

838
00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:14.519
<v Speaker 1>life experience to know that there's a lot of paths

839
00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:19.000
<v Speaker 1>out there. But you know, if someone's advertising themselves explicitly

840
00:53:19.239 --> 00:53:24.320
<v Speaker 1>as they are a therapist from a particular religion, and

841
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:27.639
<v Speaker 1>you think that's not a very good mesh with your

842
00:53:28.840 --> 00:53:31.480
<v Speaker 1>spiritual beliefs, and maybe that person isn't the best choice

843
00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:34.679
<v Speaker 1>for this. But someone who says they are young in

844
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:40.400
<v Speaker 1>or transpersonal or humanistic or existential or you know, it's

845
00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:47.239
<v Speaker 1>something that's got to built in the sort of openness

846
00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:50.800
<v Speaker 1>to the breadth of life you know, I think is

847
00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:55.360
<v Speaker 1>probably going to be a good choice. Kind of a

848
00:53:55.360 --> 00:53:58.920
<v Speaker 1>long answer. I hope I hit on the basic question.

849
00:54:00.199 --> 00:54:03.880
<v Speaker 3>Yes you did, because sometimes people are as a hesitant

850
00:54:03.880 --> 00:54:05.920
<v Speaker 3>on looking for help for that very reason.

851
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:09.920
<v Speaker 1>Sometimes right, right, And it is true. And you know,

852
00:54:10.039 --> 00:54:16.480
<v Speaker 1>just like in communities, smaller more conservative communities, people still

853
00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:19.320
<v Speaker 1>have to be careful about, you know, outing themselves as

854
00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:23.320
<v Speaker 1>being interested in this stuff at all. So you know,

855
00:54:23.400 --> 00:54:25.079
<v Speaker 1>I get that it's a real issue.

856
00:54:29.360 --> 00:54:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Another question I had, did I where did you get

857
00:54:32.519 --> 00:54:35.760
<v Speaker 2>your take on so people have a better understanding maybe,

858
00:54:36.199 --> 00:54:37.840
<v Speaker 2>and it is just something you do discuss in your

859
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:42.079
<v Speaker 2>living with the Lima. What is crossing the abyss? Whats

860
00:54:42.159 --> 00:54:43.840
<v Speaker 2>it mean to you? What is that?

861
00:54:46.400 --> 00:54:52.840
<v Speaker 1>So? In the the Limics system of conceiving the overall

862
00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:57.800
<v Speaker 1>path of the great work, there are two critical ordeals

863
00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:02.039
<v Speaker 1>for the advancing initiative. Of them is knowledge and conversation

864
00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:05.239
<v Speaker 1>of the Holy Guardian Angel, which we've discussed, and then

865
00:55:05.400 --> 00:55:11.480
<v Speaker 1>the next one is crossingly this so think of it

866
00:55:11.559 --> 00:55:14.400
<v Speaker 1>this way. You've had knowledge of conversation, you have now

867
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:19.320
<v Speaker 1>a much more complete conscious understanding of what your true

868
00:55:19.320 --> 00:55:21.679
<v Speaker 1>will is. So you, as we discussed earlier, take the

869
00:55:21.679 --> 00:55:23.719
<v Speaker 1>next steps of making your life a place where that

870
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:28.360
<v Speaker 1>can happen. You keep doing that, you're very likely to

871
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:31.599
<v Speaker 1>be successful at it because by definition, it's what you're

872
00:55:31.639 --> 00:55:35.400
<v Speaker 1>cut out to do. You've found your dream job, you know,

873
00:55:36.559 --> 00:55:39.519
<v Speaker 1>except it's not just a job, that's your whole life.

874
00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:44.760
<v Speaker 1>And if you keep doing that, you're likely to become

875
00:55:44.840 --> 00:55:47.159
<v Speaker 1>known for doing that. You're likely to be good enough

876
00:55:47.159 --> 00:55:52.360
<v Speaker 1>at doing that thing that you will bring yourself to

877
00:55:52.760 --> 00:55:55.079
<v Speaker 1>kind of the culmination of what you can be as

878
00:55:55.119 --> 00:55:59.119
<v Speaker 1>a human in the normal sense. You'll be self actualized,

879
00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:01.480
<v Speaker 1>to use a common term for that sort of thing.

880
00:56:02.119 --> 00:56:04.079
<v Speaker 1>You've seen these people, they just seem to be so

881
00:56:04.119 --> 00:56:05.679
<v Speaker 1>good at what they're doing. They're doing it out in

882
00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:08.199
<v Speaker 1>the world, and they're known for it, and it seems

883
00:56:08.239 --> 00:56:11.920
<v Speaker 1>like they were just born to do it. And at

884
00:56:11.920 --> 00:56:14.960
<v Speaker 1>that point, where do you go. If you're going to

885
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:20.800
<v Speaker 1>grow more, it can't just stay in the realm of

886
00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:24.199
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to make me better and better. You know,

887
00:56:24.679 --> 00:56:26.760
<v Speaker 1>I'll be bigger and bigger and greater and greater. And

888
00:56:27.400 --> 00:56:35.559
<v Speaker 1>that becomes at a certain point self limiting and destructive,

889
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:39.360
<v Speaker 1>because the danger is that the ego takes over and

890
00:56:39.480 --> 00:56:41.480
<v Speaker 1>is just so happy to be so good at all

891
00:56:41.599 --> 00:56:43.880
<v Speaker 1>this that it wants to keep doing it and keep

892
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:46.840
<v Speaker 1>getting more and more famous for it and all that.

893
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:51.159
<v Speaker 1>So at some point the only next step available is

894
00:56:51.199 --> 00:56:56.320
<v Speaker 1>giving it up and letting go, being willing to let

895
00:56:56.400 --> 00:56:59.800
<v Speaker 1>go of everything that you've developed, being willing to say

896
00:57:00.280 --> 00:57:03.920
<v Speaker 1>what's more important is that this is helping the world,

897
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:06.599
<v Speaker 1>not that it feels good to me or that it's

898
00:57:07.559 --> 00:57:11.519
<v Speaker 1>you know, so good for my life, you know. So

899
00:57:11.639 --> 00:57:15.159
<v Speaker 1>this is where we go from a bit more of

900
00:57:15.199 --> 00:57:22.599
<v Speaker 1>an individual centric self development model to let's bring it

901
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:25.239
<v Speaker 1>back to the world, like the monomouth return phase we

902
00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:32.320
<v Speaker 1>were talking about two. Now, let me dedicate my entire

903
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:37.760
<v Speaker 1>life to service to the universe, whatever that means. Okay,

904
00:57:38.280 --> 00:57:41.400
<v Speaker 1>So the real crossing of the abyss is being able

905
00:57:41.519 --> 00:57:46.079
<v Speaker 1>to fully develop oneself and then offer it all out

906
00:57:46.239 --> 00:57:50.119
<v Speaker 1>to the universe and let go of the individual focus.

907
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:55.519
<v Speaker 1>So another angle on this is that there is a

908
00:57:55.559 --> 00:57:59.000
<v Speaker 1>part of us that has always been living across the abyss.

909
00:57:59.039 --> 00:58:02.320
<v Speaker 1>This is the abyss of personal versus trans personal or

910
00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:10.440
<v Speaker 1>individual versus collective consciousness. Okay, Uh, part of us that

911
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:13.639
<v Speaker 1>star at our center, you know, has always been there.

912
00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:18.440
<v Speaker 1>The change is that our ego says, I now recognize

913
00:58:18.719 --> 00:58:23.039
<v Speaker 1>consciously that the real list me is not the me

914
00:58:23.239 --> 00:58:25.639
<v Speaker 1>I've thought of myself to be at all, you know,

915
00:58:25.679 --> 00:58:27.480
<v Speaker 1>And I can give that up because that's like a

916
00:58:27.559 --> 00:58:31.920
<v Speaker 1>leaf blown in the wind compared to the collective. So

917
00:58:32.039 --> 00:58:35.280
<v Speaker 1>the real kind of cosmic consciousness attainment at that level

918
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:42.119
<v Speaker 1>is is that kind of a shift that we we

919
00:58:42.400 --> 00:58:48.639
<v Speaker 1>consciously and intently let go of individual centered consciousness and

920
00:58:48.920 --> 00:58:53.199
<v Speaker 1>embrace the the all really or you know, the non

921
00:58:53.320 --> 00:58:58.000
<v Speaker 1>dual consciousness at that level. So that's a lot, but

922
00:58:59.039 --> 00:59:04.679
<v Speaker 1>it's uh, it's not something obviously that is a common

923
00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:08.920
<v Speaker 1>experience for many people. Although that's one of those danger

924
00:59:09.000 --> 00:59:12.599
<v Speaker 1>zones where with the right psychedelics, sometimes people who have

925
00:59:12.679 --> 00:59:16.039
<v Speaker 1>done two banishing rituals in their life decide they've crossed

926
00:59:16.039 --> 00:59:19.840
<v Speaker 1>the Abyss and now have cosmic consciousness and are finished

927
00:59:19.880 --> 00:59:26.159
<v Speaker 1>and all set. I couldn't resist that.

928
00:59:28.880 --> 00:59:30.840
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, no, that's good. I have a question to go

929
00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:34.000
<v Speaker 5>along the lines of crossing the abyss, you know, for

930
00:59:34.199 --> 00:59:37.719
<v Speaker 5>you know us and the audience, adding the understanding of

931
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:42.039
<v Speaker 5>where Cornzon comes into that when crossing the abyss, because

932
00:59:42.480 --> 00:59:46.679
<v Speaker 5>in you know, Crowley's work, it's like exemplified as so

933
00:59:46.920 --> 00:59:51.039
<v Speaker 5>extreme that it'll completely erratic. If you bring your ego

934
00:59:51.119 --> 00:59:53.960
<v Speaker 5>across the abyss, you will be brought into the Great

935
00:59:54.039 --> 00:59:57.159
<v Speaker 5>Black Brotherhood or into the darkness forever, never able to

936
00:59:57.199 --> 01:00:00.360
<v Speaker 5>crawl out. So I would love to hear your take like.

937
01:00:01.039 --> 01:00:06.760
<v Speaker 1>That would be a poor choice, right like it? You

938
01:00:06.760 --> 01:00:12.800
<v Speaker 1>know you chose poorly, But yeah, kronzm was sort of

939
01:00:12.840 --> 01:00:17.559
<v Speaker 1>the the demon corns on the sort of Crowley's personification

940
01:00:17.960 --> 01:00:25.960
<v Speaker 1>of chaotic, dispersed mental functioning that can happen when we

941
01:00:26.960 --> 01:00:29.320
<v Speaker 1>are trying to hang on to ourselves in a process

942
01:00:29.320 --> 01:00:34.159
<v Speaker 1>that demands we let go of ourselves. And if you

943
01:00:34.159 --> 01:00:37.480
<v Speaker 1>you know, if you struggle against that, you can drive

944
01:00:37.480 --> 01:00:41.559
<v Speaker 1>yourself crazy. It's also a good way of understanding the

945
01:00:41.559 --> 01:00:45.840
<v Speaker 1>the way that transition of abyss crossing can actually feel.

946
01:00:46.000 --> 01:00:51.039
<v Speaker 1>It Clely describes this in various places, but it's everything

947
01:00:51.079 --> 01:00:55.079
<v Speaker 1>becomes fragmented, and formula that have worked for you don't work,

948
01:00:55.440 --> 01:00:59.559
<v Speaker 1>and nothing makes the sense it used to make, and

949
01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:05.239
<v Speaker 1>each experience sort of is like a funhouse mirror of

950
01:01:05.559 --> 01:01:08.719
<v Speaker 1>you know, So if you don't go into that consciously

951
01:01:08.960 --> 01:01:11.480
<v Speaker 1>and with an awareness of what's happening, it just feels

952
01:01:11.519 --> 01:01:14.800
<v Speaker 1>like you're going crazy. So Corronzon, I think, is a

953
01:01:14.800 --> 01:01:20.599
<v Speaker 1>good like character that you know fits that kind of experience.

954
01:01:22.000 --> 01:01:24.960
<v Speaker 1>And then for context that Cronzen was shows up in

955
01:01:25.039 --> 01:01:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Croley's series of visions called the Vision that the recorded

956
01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:30.880
<v Speaker 1>and the vision of the voice for listeners.

957
01:01:30.519 --> 01:01:32.800
<v Speaker 5>And then maybe a you can or cannot answer this,

958
01:01:32.960 --> 01:01:35.159
<v Speaker 5>I'm most likely you can, but you can choose not to.

959
01:01:35.360 --> 01:01:38.159
<v Speaker 5>Is then what is then? Do you think that Crowley

960
01:01:38.320 --> 01:01:40.239
<v Speaker 5>was so far out of whack? Or do you think

961
01:01:40.320 --> 01:01:43.639
<v Speaker 5>I wonder about his workings in the desert then with

962
01:01:43.679 --> 01:01:46.960
<v Speaker 5>what he was doing taking Korn's on in himself actually

963
01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:50.519
<v Speaker 5>in the evocation, like what do you you know? What

964
01:01:51.000 --> 01:01:51.519
<v Speaker 5>do you think of that?

965
01:01:52.079 --> 01:01:56.920
<v Speaker 1>Well? You know, obviously ultimately it worked well for him

966
01:01:56.920 --> 01:02:00.960
<v Speaker 1>in terms of his overall path. That might not be

967
01:02:01.119 --> 01:02:04.000
<v Speaker 1>the prescription I would give to someone setting out for

968
01:02:04.039 --> 01:02:10.960
<v Speaker 1>that work, but hey, you try this. But but you know,

969
01:02:11.320 --> 01:02:16.199
<v Speaker 1>through another lens, if what we are saying, ultimately, if

970
01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:19.639
<v Speaker 1>this is what we believe about the universe, that there

971
01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:22.880
<v Speaker 1>should not be any artificial distinction between this or that,

972
01:02:23.719 --> 01:02:26.440
<v Speaker 1>then the appropriate approach to kurns And is not stay

973
01:02:26.480 --> 01:02:28.320
<v Speaker 1>away from me, krons and you're the bad thing I

974
01:02:28.360 --> 01:02:32.159
<v Speaker 1>can't allow to be in my world. Instead, you just

975
01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:35.559
<v Speaker 1>embrace it along with everything else. Because it can't harm

976
01:02:35.599 --> 01:02:38.320
<v Speaker 1>you if we're all one thing, you know, it's all

977
01:02:38.320 --> 01:02:41.800
<v Speaker 1>one energy. But I imagine there may have been some

978
01:02:41.840 --> 01:02:45.239
<v Speaker 1>of that kind of intent with with Crowley, that kind

979
01:02:45.280 --> 01:02:51.159
<v Speaker 1>of I'm going to deal with whatever's here because the

980
01:02:51.280 --> 01:02:54.159
<v Speaker 1>choice it's here, the choices. Am I admitting that or not?

981
01:02:54.599 --> 01:02:57.119
<v Speaker 1>You know? Am I Am I pushing against what's real?

982
01:02:57.280 --> 01:02:59.239
<v Speaker 1>Or Am I going to embrace what's real.

983
01:02:59.719 --> 01:03:03.599
<v Speaker 6>And to accept it and to know it and tend

984
01:03:03.760 --> 01:03:05.440
<v Speaker 6>then to be able to move past it.

985
01:03:06.360 --> 01:03:10.119
<v Speaker 1>Right right, and and orffuse with it? Or you know,

986
01:03:11.039 --> 01:03:14.239
<v Speaker 1>develop it like a some sort of micro organism that

987
01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:18.400
<v Speaker 1>just kind of you know, globs around that the next

988
01:03:18.519 --> 01:03:21.880
<v Speaker 1>cell and gets bigger and is you know, always growing

989
01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:23.599
<v Speaker 1>instead of fighting against it?

990
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:27.360
<v Speaker 5>Did did? Do you think? Is it true? I've read

991
01:03:27.400 --> 01:03:31.239
<v Speaker 5>so many different takes. Then did Victor Newburgh go crazy

992
01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:32.280
<v Speaker 5>after those workings?

993
01:03:33.920 --> 01:03:36.599
<v Speaker 1>I haven't done a whole lot of biographical exploration of

994
01:03:36.639 --> 01:03:42.119
<v Speaker 1>Victor Neuberg, but you know, he didn't vanish completely after that,

995
01:03:43.239 --> 01:03:46.639
<v Speaker 1>So you know, I don't have a fully satisfying answer

996
01:03:46.639 --> 01:03:50.400
<v Speaker 1>to that, but that's I don't think he vaporized.

997
01:03:51.280 --> 01:03:54.320
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, yeah, And it's interesting how a lot of the

998
01:03:54.320 --> 01:04:00.239
<v Speaker 5>skeptics want to not give these individuals autonomy that like

999
01:04:00.599 --> 01:04:03.920
<v Speaker 5>Victor Newberg didn't have his own autonomous being as in

1000
01:04:03.960 --> 01:04:06.360
<v Speaker 5>going out there choosing to do this stuff with him,

1001
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:09.119
<v Speaker 5>you know. And I think that's fascinating, especially for those

1002
01:04:09.159 --> 01:04:12.960
<v Speaker 5>of us who have chosen to take certain entheogenic routes

1003
01:04:13.000 --> 01:04:16.840
<v Speaker 5>in our past and then ourselves felt like we've gone

1004
01:04:16.880 --> 01:04:20.400
<v Speaker 5>crazy and did return. And it's like if anyone were

1005
01:04:20.440 --> 01:04:22.639
<v Speaker 5>to see that from the outside, they'd be like, oh,

1006
01:04:22.760 --> 01:04:25.480
<v Speaker 5>somebody did that to you, and it's like, oh no,

1007
01:04:26.559 --> 01:04:27.559
<v Speaker 5>oh no, that was me.

1008
01:04:32.039 --> 01:04:33.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I guess that this is a good point to

1009
01:04:34.159 --> 01:04:40.000
<v Speaker 1>say that clearly, looking at at Crowley's personality and life

1010
01:04:40.119 --> 01:04:46.119
<v Speaker 1>choices and such, there's no expectation for Telamites to live

1011
01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:49.760
<v Speaker 1>like Crowley lived. This is one of the other probably

1012
01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:53.079
<v Speaker 1>a more misunderstanding more in the mainstream public, I would

1013
01:04:53.079 --> 01:04:57.400
<v Speaker 1>say about this when someone looks at Felima and says, wait,

1014
01:04:57.480 --> 01:05:00.440
<v Speaker 1>Crowley was the head of this religion and he did

1015
01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:03.159
<v Speaker 1>all these things, and he had weird sex and took

1016
01:05:03.199 --> 01:05:05.800
<v Speaker 1>drugs and was sometimes not nice to people and all that,

1017
01:05:05.880 --> 01:05:08.039
<v Speaker 1>So why would anyone be a part of this religion

1018
01:05:09.159 --> 01:05:13.599
<v Speaker 1>that assumes a worldview where religion over the founder of

1019
01:05:13.639 --> 01:05:18.199
<v Speaker 1>religion is a model for behavior. It's the system that

1020
01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:22.079
<v Speaker 1>is the model for behavior, not the human Curly. And

1021
01:05:22.239 --> 01:05:25.039
<v Speaker 1>so here you get into trouble with what we might

1022
01:05:25.039 --> 01:05:28.440
<v Speaker 1>call croleanity, where where it's you know that the idea

1023
01:05:28.679 --> 01:05:30.880
<v Speaker 1>is clearly the human is there a model for behavior,

1024
01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:35.440
<v Speaker 1>which no one I know feels that way, but maybe

1025
01:05:35.480 --> 01:05:37.480
<v Speaker 1>some people on the fringes think of it that way,

1026
01:05:37.559 --> 01:05:41.039
<v Speaker 1>and people encountering fe Lima in the general public might

1027
01:05:42.559 --> 01:05:44.920
<v Speaker 1>be very confused about why anyone would be a part

1028
01:05:44.920 --> 01:05:48.840
<v Speaker 1>of a system that Curly created because undoubtedly, you know,

1029
01:05:48.880 --> 01:05:51.920
<v Speaker 1>you sometimes made bad choices and treated people badly, and

1030
01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:53.800
<v Speaker 1>you know we've all got false.

1031
01:05:53.559 --> 01:05:57.039
<v Speaker 5>Of course, yeah, which is something I will state for myself.

1032
01:05:57.079 --> 01:06:00.519
<v Speaker 5>Who I know that for people to listen to me talk,

1033
01:06:00.599 --> 01:06:02.920
<v Speaker 5>they'd be like, well, obviously you're a Felamite, and and

1034
01:06:03.360 --> 01:06:06.039
<v Speaker 5>internally I'm like, yeah, that's definitely true. I've read and

1035
01:06:06.119 --> 01:06:09.000
<v Speaker 5>practice and done the thing. But then when I see

1036
01:06:09.039 --> 01:06:12.280
<v Speaker 5>the New Age spiritual community out there and a lot

1037
01:06:12.280 --> 01:06:16.360
<v Speaker 5>of the Fellamites that call and pronounce it on all

1038
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:19.400
<v Speaker 5>their banners, that's when I that's like, it makes my

1039
01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:23.559
<v Speaker 5>nervous system tingle uh and cringe. And so it's really

1040
01:06:23.599 --> 01:06:26.760
<v Speaker 5>hard these days. Do you know what I mean to

1041
01:06:26.800 --> 01:06:28.800
<v Speaker 5>be like, Oh, yeah, I'm a felamite. I'm like no,

1042
01:06:29.079 --> 01:06:33.519
<v Speaker 5>I'm like no, I don't know. I've read Cooley and

1043
01:06:33.079 --> 01:06:35.880
<v Speaker 5>I like his you know. Anyway, so that's kind of

1044
01:06:35.880 --> 01:06:38.559
<v Speaker 5>my own, Like I get really weirded out in those things,

1045
01:06:38.599 --> 01:06:41.000
<v Speaker 5>even though I'm like, yeah, definitely a fellamite, of course. Yeah,

1046
01:06:41.000 --> 01:06:43.039
<v Speaker 5>I do what thou wilt loves the law. Yeah.

1047
01:06:43.159 --> 01:06:46.320
<v Speaker 4>Anyway, Well, I think one of the big problems is

1048
01:06:46.320 --> 01:06:50.519
<v Speaker 4>that people don't understand that Crowley was an explorer at heart,

1049
01:06:50.559 --> 01:06:52.559
<v Speaker 4>Like this is why he was a mountain climber, this

1050
01:06:52.599 --> 01:06:55.280
<v Speaker 4>is why he did extreme things in general, is because

1051
01:06:55.280 --> 01:06:58.400
<v Speaker 4>he was exploring other things. He's not necessarily a prophet

1052
01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:00.840
<v Speaker 4>on top of the mountain telling every everybody what to do.

1053
01:07:01.320 --> 01:07:04.119
<v Speaker 4>That's a very different perspective. What he's trying to do

1054
01:07:04.199 --> 01:07:06.079
<v Speaker 4>is saying, you know, this is what I have to

1055
01:07:06.079 --> 01:07:08.519
<v Speaker 4>do for me. Reading through seven seven seven, it seems

1056
01:07:08.559 --> 01:07:12.039
<v Speaker 4>like he's intensely self critical, almost as much as he

1057
01:07:12.159 --> 01:07:16.320
<v Speaker 4>is about other people, because he's trying to properly explore

1058
01:07:16.360 --> 01:07:20.519
<v Speaker 4>these things in a way that is very hard to define, right,

1059
01:07:20.599 --> 01:07:24.079
<v Speaker 4>I mean, we're dealing with subjective experiences that are almost

1060
01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:27.760
<v Speaker 4>impossible to nail down, and that's that's something a lot

1061
01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:30.000
<v Speaker 4>of people miss out on with the exploration.

1062
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:37.320
<v Speaker 2>Good point, thank you, since it's getting into the show.

1063
01:07:37.360 --> 01:07:40.239
<v Speaker 2>I did want to get into it for listeners who

1064
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:42.920
<v Speaker 2>happen to hear like AA and think of it as

1065
01:07:42.960 --> 01:07:46.159
<v Speaker 2>a secret society. Alista Crowley, could you let people know

1066
01:07:46.239 --> 01:07:48.440
<v Speaker 2>and give people an idea what is the purpose of

1067
01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:50.199
<v Speaker 2>that system?

1068
01:07:50.360 --> 01:07:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So AA is Crowley's original. We've Curly and George

1069
01:07:55.440 --> 01:07:57.599
<v Speaker 1>Cecil Jones who he was working with. We're both in

1070
01:07:57.599 --> 01:08:04.039
<v Speaker 1>the Golden Down. Curly Earlian Jones worked together pivotally around

1071
01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:06.920
<v Speaker 1>nineteen oh seven to start the AA, which was his

1072
01:08:07.039 --> 01:08:11.000
<v Speaker 1>revisioning of a system of initiation coming out of the

1073
01:08:11.039 --> 01:08:12.719
<v Speaker 1>Goldendon that he thought would be kind of a new

1074
01:08:12.920 --> 01:08:15.960
<v Speaker 1>and improved way to do this. So it cut out

1075
01:08:16.000 --> 01:08:19.279
<v Speaker 1>all the group ritual work except for a couple initial

1076
01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:27.119
<v Speaker 1>initiatory experiences and that are like in Temple, but other

1077
01:08:27.159 --> 01:08:31.279
<v Speaker 1>than that, it's a one to one teacher student training

1078
01:08:31.359 --> 01:08:33.880
<v Speaker 1>organization where the structure is always the same and the

1079
01:08:33.960 --> 01:08:36.640
<v Speaker 1>tasks are the same from grade to grade, but you're

1080
01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:39.960
<v Speaker 1>given one teacher. Now a teacher might have many students,

1081
01:08:39.960 --> 01:08:45.600
<v Speaker 1>but each student only has one teacher, and the idea was,

1082
01:08:45.720 --> 01:08:50.840
<v Speaker 1>let's strip away the potential distraction of the social component.

1083
01:08:52.119 --> 01:08:53.920
<v Speaker 1>That Crawley really had a bad taste in his mouth

1084
01:08:53.960 --> 01:08:56.800
<v Speaker 1>coming out of the Goldendon because of the way that

1085
01:08:56.880 --> 01:09:04.560
<v Speaker 1>group was administered specifically, and the AA began to publish

1086
01:09:04.720 --> 01:09:08.199
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the fundamental documents of the Limit tradition

1087
01:09:08.359 --> 01:09:13.399
<v Speaker 1>in the Equinox Journal that Corely edited for a number

1088
01:09:13.399 --> 01:09:19.560
<v Speaker 1>of years, and it has persisted in an unbroken line

1089
01:09:19.640 --> 01:09:22.520
<v Speaker 1>to today. There have been splinterings here and there, but

1090
01:09:23.359 --> 01:09:30.039
<v Speaker 1>it's never stopped, and we administer it today through the

1091
01:09:30.479 --> 01:09:34.279
<v Speaker 1>portal for my work with the AA is, as I said,

1092
01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:37.359
<v Speaker 1>one Star insight dot org. So it's the one to

1093
01:09:37.399 --> 01:09:42.680
<v Speaker 1>one teaching structure temple. The Overstar, in contrast, is in

1094
01:09:42.800 --> 01:09:46.800
<v Speaker 1>service to AA, but has reincorporated a lot of the

1095
01:09:46.880 --> 01:09:52.199
<v Speaker 1>fundamentals and landmarks of the Golden Dawn Temple tradition of

1096
01:09:52.840 --> 01:09:56.920
<v Speaker 1>having group initiations and group ritual meetings that still have

1097
01:09:57.800 --> 01:10:00.359
<v Speaker 1>the component that what everyone goes home to do is

1098
01:10:00.359 --> 01:10:05.319
<v Speaker 1>their individual work in the structure in terms of assignments

1099
01:10:05.359 --> 01:10:09.800
<v Speaker 1>and rituals and meditations and so on. So a lot

1100
01:10:09.840 --> 01:10:15.479
<v Speaker 1>of vibrant growth in both these organizations in the last

1101
01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:19.760
<v Speaker 1>fifteen years or so, and I think the flame is

1102
01:10:19.760 --> 01:10:22.239
<v Speaker 1>burning as bright as it ever was. There's far more

1103
01:10:22.279 --> 01:10:24.279
<v Speaker 1>people involved than ever were in Crowley's time.

1104
01:10:24.359 --> 01:10:33.159
<v Speaker 2>For example, another question I had on that is, how

1105
01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:36.359
<v Speaker 2>do you think this discipline training protects people from like

1106
01:10:36.479 --> 01:10:40.079
<v Speaker 2>fantasy inflation, spiritual burnout?

1107
01:10:40.119 --> 01:10:44.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, great question. Take burn out first, just because the

1108
01:10:44.640 --> 01:10:47.800
<v Speaker 1>word jumped out at me. And one of the that's

1109
01:10:47.840 --> 01:10:52.399
<v Speaker 1>one of the helpful roles of community that you know,

1110
01:10:52.239 --> 01:10:55.239
<v Speaker 1>you genuinely have people who do care about each other,

1111
01:10:55.319 --> 01:11:01.800
<v Speaker 1>and they're all doing this work, and they're all doing

1112
01:11:01.840 --> 01:11:04.640
<v Speaker 1>their best to bring the best of themselves to their

1113
01:11:04.680 --> 01:11:09.439
<v Speaker 1>interactions with their fellow seekers, you know, so you get

1114
01:11:09.479 --> 01:11:18.119
<v Speaker 1>supported and also you get the judgment in a good way,

1115
01:11:18.199 --> 01:11:24.840
<v Speaker 1>like the practiced judgment of working the system that the

1116
01:11:24.920 --> 01:11:30.800
<v Speaker 1>chiefs of the temple and provide, providing guidance with, you know,

1117
01:11:31.920 --> 01:11:35.199
<v Speaker 1>testing on how a ritual's done, or reviewing a diary

1118
01:11:35.279 --> 01:11:38.000
<v Speaker 1>and kind of talking with the person about what that

1119
01:11:38.079 --> 01:11:42.039
<v Speaker 1>experience meant to them and how it fits into the personal,

1120
01:11:42.079 --> 01:11:45.199
<v Speaker 1>mystical or magical work they're doing. And so you get

1121
01:11:45.239 --> 01:11:48.159
<v Speaker 1>eyes on your work by someone who has literally done

1122
01:11:48.239 --> 01:11:51.680
<v Speaker 1>the same work and been supervised by someone who made

1123
01:11:51.680 --> 01:11:53.920
<v Speaker 1>sure they were doing it the right way and so on,

1124
01:11:54.760 --> 01:11:59.199
<v Speaker 1>and so the opportunity for self delusion is much reduced

1125
01:11:59.319 --> 01:12:02.439
<v Speaker 1>where there's someone to catch it and say no, actually,

1126
01:12:03.560 --> 01:12:06.319
<v Speaker 1>that result you had is expected for stage one and

1127
01:12:06.439 --> 01:12:09.359
<v Speaker 1>not stage four. So you're really you know, keep working

1128
01:12:09.399 --> 01:12:11.800
<v Speaker 1>on stage one. You'll get there. You know, the encouraging,

1129
01:12:11.880 --> 01:12:15.720
<v Speaker 1>but you keep people focused on the steps in front

1130
01:12:15.720 --> 01:12:17.760
<v Speaker 1>of them as stid of letting them get ahead of themselves.

1131
01:12:21.000 --> 01:12:27.079
<v Speaker 1>You are doing You're guiding a person through the work

1132
01:12:27.119 --> 01:12:30.760
<v Speaker 1>in a structured way, and so it's done in a

1133
01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:36.640
<v Speaker 1>stepwise fashion that has proven to be successful, has proven

1134
01:12:36.720 --> 01:12:40.600
<v Speaker 1>to set a good foundation for later work, and so

1135
01:12:41.760 --> 01:12:43.640
<v Speaker 1>in that way, it's it's one of the most efficient

1136
01:12:43.680 --> 01:12:46.560
<v Speaker 1>ways that I know of to train people. And really

1137
01:12:46.840 --> 01:12:50.800
<v Speaker 1>presenting the systems of initiation is one way of understanding

1138
01:12:50.840 --> 01:12:55.199
<v Speaker 1>my own true will in this world. It's clearly something

1139
01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:58.600
<v Speaker 1>that I care deeply about. So I think I got

1140
01:12:58.640 --> 01:12:59.359
<v Speaker 1>your question there.

1141
01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:03.399
<v Speaker 2>Does anybody anybody have any other ones? Before I keep

1142
01:13:03.439 --> 01:13:08.960
<v Speaker 2>going with this, what parts of the A curriculum do

1143
01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:13.560
<v Speaker 2>you think might actually be the most misunderstood by outsiders? Hmm,

1144
01:13:14.399 --> 01:13:15.079
<v Speaker 2>if you think there was.

1145
01:13:15.079 --> 01:13:22.359
<v Speaker 1>Any Well, most people outside the tradition have so many

1146
01:13:22.359 --> 01:13:25.960
<v Speaker 1>misunderstandings about what magic re recult is, the movement is,

1147
01:13:26.039 --> 01:13:30.640
<v Speaker 1>or who Curley was. That God is like large for misunderstandings.

1148
01:13:30.680 --> 01:13:32.960
<v Speaker 1>But in the on the micro level, that's sort of

1149
01:13:33.000 --> 01:13:40.680
<v Speaker 1>the nerd level, I think, hmmm, you know, you could

1150
01:13:40.680 --> 01:13:48.279
<v Speaker 1>point at particular rituals that maybe miss misunderstood or mispracticed. Sometimes,

1151
01:13:51.520 --> 01:13:55.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, you know, Curley writes which is often with

1152
01:13:55.760 --> 01:13:59.720
<v Speaker 1>two or three levels of meaning, and there's what he's

1153
01:13:59.760 --> 01:14:01.960
<v Speaker 1>seen to be saying you're supposed to do, and then

1154
01:14:02.000 --> 01:14:05.319
<v Speaker 1>you realize from reading his commentary somewhere else that what

1155
01:14:05.359 --> 01:14:10.079
<v Speaker 1>he's really meaning is like that's just a metaphor for

1156
01:14:10.119 --> 01:14:13.720
<v Speaker 1>what's going on inside with your visualization. Or he says,

1157
01:14:17.279 --> 01:14:20.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, to to to be doing something that sounds

1158
01:14:21.039 --> 01:14:25.159
<v Speaker 1>rather outlandish, but really it's a it's it's it's a

1159
01:14:25.199 --> 01:14:27.720
<v Speaker 1>metaphor for a certain state of consciousness you're supposed to

1160
01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:31.439
<v Speaker 1>hold during the the performance of the ritual. So a

1161
01:14:31.520 --> 01:14:33.960
<v Speaker 1>lot of stuff like that that is just people not

1162
01:14:34.079 --> 01:14:38.760
<v Speaker 1>reading deeply enough or taking it too literally or whatever.

1163
01:14:40.279 --> 01:14:42.039
<v Speaker 1>So that's probably a better answer than trying to drill

1164
01:14:42.079 --> 01:14:45.399
<v Speaker 1>down on a particular ritual practice or something like that.

1165
01:14:45.399 --> 01:14:46.319
<v Speaker 2>That's an interesting answer.

1166
01:14:46.760 --> 01:14:47.159
<v Speaker 1>I like that.

1167
01:14:48.399 --> 01:14:51.319
<v Speaker 2>Uh I would assume you'd be able to explain this.

1168
01:14:51.640 --> 01:14:54.399
<v Speaker 2>Uh I do know. Like I think if somebody was

1169
01:14:54.399 --> 01:14:56.880
<v Speaker 2>actually interested in getting involved in one of these things,

1170
01:14:56.880 --> 01:14:59.600
<v Speaker 2>you would have to actually be suggested a certain amount

1171
01:14:59.600 --> 01:15:01.800
<v Speaker 2>of book, certain group of books that you're supposed to

1172
01:15:01.880 --> 01:15:04.920
<v Speaker 2>be read, and then take a test on that before

1173
01:15:04.960 --> 01:15:09.319
<v Speaker 2>you can even become a student. Is that correct?

1174
01:15:09.680 --> 01:15:16.000
<v Speaker 1>And the traditional AA approach to the student curriculum, a

1175
01:15:16.079 --> 01:15:20.479
<v Speaker 1>person writes us for basic information, they're given a list

1176
01:15:20.520 --> 01:15:24.680
<v Speaker 1>of books to collect and study for at least three months.

1177
01:15:25.840 --> 01:15:29.199
<v Speaker 1>Anytime after that three months, well, once they've told us

1178
01:15:29.239 --> 01:15:31.960
<v Speaker 1>they have all the books, then the three month clock starts.

1179
01:15:32.760 --> 01:15:35.520
<v Speaker 1>Then anytime after the three months they can request an

1180
01:15:35.560 --> 01:15:38.560
<v Speaker 1>examination and if they pass that, they're invited to become

1181
01:15:38.600 --> 01:15:42.600
<v Speaker 1>a probationer. So that's the very traditional approach to to

1182
01:15:42.760 --> 01:15:46.520
<v Speaker 1>AA work. For Temple of the Service, Star initiation is

1183
01:15:46.520 --> 01:15:51.680
<v Speaker 1>by application and interview, so there's there's no pre study

1184
01:15:51.840 --> 01:15:53.880
<v Speaker 1>sort of in that approach.

1185
01:15:55.359 --> 01:15:57.119
<v Speaker 2>You want to go a little bit more into that

1186
01:15:57.159 --> 01:15:59.720
<v Speaker 2>one now too. Give people an idea about the difference.

1187
01:15:59.720 --> 01:16:04.600
<v Speaker 1>Maybe sure, yeah. So one of the cardinal differences that

1188
01:16:04.640 --> 01:16:08.760
<v Speaker 1>I've already pointed out is the group versus solo aspect.

1189
01:16:08.840 --> 01:16:13.079
<v Speaker 1>Instead of being just you and your teacher, if you

1190
01:16:13.159 --> 01:16:15.359
<v Speaker 1>live near one of our working groups in Temple of

1191
01:16:15.359 --> 01:16:20.000
<v Speaker 1>the Silver Star, you attend a monthly ritual that is

1192
01:16:20.039 --> 01:16:25.279
<v Speaker 1>an group ritual for energy raising and healing and personal empowerment,

1193
01:16:26.199 --> 01:16:30.279
<v Speaker 1>and then you're with each initiatory degree. It's a trio

1194
01:16:30.279 --> 01:16:32.159
<v Speaker 1>of a life based system, just like the Golden Dawn

1195
01:16:32.199 --> 01:16:36.680
<v Speaker 1>and the AA. You're given a hefty pack of materials

1196
01:16:36.720 --> 01:16:39.640
<v Speaker 1>for reading and study and practice, and that will always

1197
01:16:39.640 --> 01:16:44.479
<v Speaker 1>include some writing and you know, a little bit more

1198
01:16:44.520 --> 01:16:50.279
<v Speaker 1>academic leaning kind of learning, but then daily personal, magical

1199
01:16:50.279 --> 01:16:55.680
<v Speaker 1>and mystical practices, and the psychological dimension is addressed through

1200
01:16:55.720 --> 01:17:00.760
<v Speaker 1>things like projection monitoring and other kinds of self awareness practices.

1201
01:17:01.720 --> 01:17:04.720
<v Speaker 1>So this is all done in the context of of

1202
01:17:04.760 --> 01:17:11.680
<v Speaker 1>the framework of a Golden Dawn type organization, but with

1203
01:17:11.680 --> 01:17:14.760
<v Speaker 1>with the Law of Thelema as its core. Like the

1204
01:17:14.760 --> 01:17:18.800
<v Speaker 1>whole point of it is an unfolding awareness of true

1205
01:17:18.840 --> 01:17:25.520
<v Speaker 1>will for the initiative. So there is some overlap in

1206
01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:28.479
<v Speaker 1>terms of the style of practice from the AA and

1207
01:17:28.560 --> 01:17:30.479
<v Speaker 1>Temple the SilverStar. You know, between the two. As you

1208
01:17:30.479 --> 01:17:34.720
<v Speaker 1>can imagine, we're all kind of delmites doing Willy McGuirk.

1209
01:17:34.800 --> 01:17:39.439
<v Speaker 1>But those are some of the key differences, and you know,

1210
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:42.520
<v Speaker 1>one person may be more suited for one and another

1211
01:17:42.560 --> 01:17:45.039
<v Speaker 1>person for the other. We've got a number of people,

1212
01:17:45.079 --> 01:17:47.560
<v Speaker 1>of course, over the years who've done them simultaneously because

1213
01:17:47.560 --> 01:17:52.399
<v Speaker 1>they're different enough and have different kinds of benefits structure.

1214
01:17:55.920 --> 01:17:57.960
<v Speaker 2>One thing I do want to ask you, go ahead, Britly,

1215
01:17:58.000 --> 01:17:58.560
<v Speaker 2>go ahead.

1216
01:17:58.720 --> 01:18:05.920
<v Speaker 5>Oh yeah, thanks Nick. My question then, is somebody in

1217
01:18:05.960 --> 01:18:10.119
<v Speaker 5>the occult magical community who has his own school. He

1218
01:18:10.159 --> 01:18:13.039
<v Speaker 5>started at his own thing. He has continued stated how

1219
01:18:13.600 --> 01:18:16.159
<v Speaker 5>the Golden Down does rituals up to a certain point

1220
01:18:16.319 --> 01:18:19.319
<v Speaker 5>and then the AA kind of takes over and then

1221
01:18:19.560 --> 01:18:21.680
<v Speaker 5>has the RITUALI stick up all the way up into

1222
01:18:21.720 --> 01:18:25.520
<v Speaker 5>the epissimus. Is there is there any truth to that?

1223
01:18:25.560 --> 01:18:26.840
<v Speaker 5>It like goes all the way up to the minor

1224
01:18:26.880 --> 01:18:28.920
<v Speaker 5>and then the Golden Down kind of stops itself, and

1225
01:18:28.960 --> 01:18:31.760
<v Speaker 5>then you know, the AA picks up where that left off.

1226
01:18:32.279 --> 01:18:33.439
<v Speaker 5>Does that make any sense to you?

1227
01:18:34.880 --> 01:18:39.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know that that's if you look at the

1228
01:18:39.680 --> 01:18:43.680
<v Speaker 1>history of the systems. That's accurate in the sense that

1229
01:18:43.760 --> 01:18:49.640
<v Speaker 1>the original Golden down didn't really conceive of their system

1230
01:18:49.680 --> 01:18:53.680
<v Speaker 1>as taking one all the way to the ABYSS, for example,

1231
01:18:54.319 --> 01:18:57.840
<v Speaker 1>and having initiatory degrees up to that point. That was

1232
01:18:57.920 --> 01:19:04.920
<v Speaker 1>one of Crowley's innovations with the AA. So you can, well,

1233
01:19:04.920 --> 01:19:07.960
<v Speaker 1>I'll speak to the organizations I run. But with Temple

1234
01:19:08.000 --> 01:19:12.279
<v Speaker 1>of SilverStar, our whole system does bring someone to knowledge

1235
01:19:12.319 --> 01:19:15.039
<v Speaker 1>of conversation of the HGA. One could do that in

1236
01:19:15.079 --> 01:19:16.880
<v Speaker 1>the Temple of the Silver Star and never join the

1237
01:19:16.920 --> 01:19:24.800
<v Speaker 1>AA at that point. You know, it's accurate to say

1238
01:19:24.800 --> 01:19:27.000
<v Speaker 1>that if one wanted to take it further, that would

1239
01:19:27.079 --> 01:19:32.199
<v Speaker 1>be in an AA structure, because from getting beyond knowledge

1240
01:19:32.239 --> 01:19:34.640
<v Speaker 1>of conversation into the next steps is really beyond the

1241
01:19:34.640 --> 01:19:36.880
<v Speaker 1>scope of what we could do with some sort of

1242
01:19:36.960 --> 01:19:39.840
<v Speaker 1>group training experience. I mean, think about what we've been

1243
01:19:39.880 --> 01:19:41.680
<v Speaker 1>talking about here in terms of the nature of the

1244
01:19:41.720 --> 01:19:46.159
<v Speaker 1>ABYSS and all of that. How exactly would one, you know,

1245
01:19:46.760 --> 01:19:49.800
<v Speaker 1>do a group ritual and have someone else train you

1246
01:19:49.920 --> 01:19:52.880
<v Speaker 1>in that experience. It's entirely you're you're kind of on

1247
01:19:52.920 --> 01:19:55.039
<v Speaker 1>your own in the in the cosmos at that point.

1248
01:19:56.520 --> 01:19:58.720
<v Speaker 1>But getting up to knowledge and conversation you may need

1249
01:19:58.800 --> 01:20:02.560
<v Speaker 1>human teachers. And so both AA and Temple the Silver

1250
01:20:02.640 --> 01:20:05.479
<v Speaker 1>Star gets you to knowledge and conversation.

1251
01:20:08.279 --> 01:20:09.880
<v Speaker 2>One question I got for you real quick, what does

1252
01:20:09.920 --> 01:20:11.960
<v Speaker 2>AA mean? Somebody's asking that in job.

1253
01:20:15.479 --> 01:20:18.159
<v Speaker 1>It's more or less universal that it is one or

1254
01:20:18.199 --> 01:20:23.399
<v Speaker 1>another version of words and other languages meaning silver star.

1255
01:20:25.560 --> 01:20:29.920
<v Speaker 1>But I prefer publicly to be because there's so much

1256
01:20:29.960 --> 01:20:34.359
<v Speaker 1>debate about it and some degree of silliness around it

1257
01:20:34.439 --> 01:20:39.000
<v Speaker 1>that it's easier just to say AA one way or another.

1258
01:20:39.520 --> 01:20:42.520
<v Speaker 1>You know, it adds up to silver star. I do

1259
01:20:42.600 --> 01:20:45.079
<v Speaker 1>want to clarify that Temple of the Silver Star is

1260
01:20:47.199 --> 01:20:51.640
<v Speaker 1>a group that isn't a A, but you know acknowledges

1261
01:20:51.680 --> 01:20:53.399
<v Speaker 1>that that sort of silver star of the name is

1262
01:20:53.399 --> 01:20:56.000
<v Speaker 1>of course hinting at the fact that we're in service

1263
01:20:56.000 --> 01:20:58.600
<v Speaker 1>to AA. So I just I say that because I

1264
01:20:58.640 --> 01:21:03.239
<v Speaker 1>don't want confusion about the Temple of the SilverStar being AA.

1265
01:21:04.159 --> 01:21:06.600
<v Speaker 5>Is that more of a tholamic group that is like

1266
01:21:06.640 --> 01:21:15.000
<v Speaker 5>a precursor to the AA workings.

1267
01:21:13.439 --> 01:21:19.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, some people do them simultaneously. It's probably more common

1268
01:21:19.720 --> 01:21:22.359
<v Speaker 1>for someone to come through the Temple of the SilverStar

1269
01:21:22.439 --> 01:21:25.000
<v Speaker 1>as a preliminary course of training and then later pursue

1270
01:21:25.039 --> 01:21:27.880
<v Speaker 1>AA work, not because it has to be that way,

1271
01:21:27.920 --> 01:21:32.000
<v Speaker 1>but because the temple work is such a good foundation

1272
01:21:34.640 --> 01:21:37.239
<v Speaker 1>so that when you go off and kind of do

1273
01:21:37.279 --> 01:21:39.960
<v Speaker 1>so much solo work, you've already had a lot of practice.

1274
01:21:40.199 --> 01:21:43.880
<v Speaker 1>You've already had a lot of supervised experience with ritual

1275
01:21:43.960 --> 01:21:46.680
<v Speaker 1>and diary keeping, and you got all that momentum, so

1276
01:21:46.760 --> 01:21:49.199
<v Speaker 1>you hit the ground running with AA as opposed to

1277
01:21:50.239 --> 01:21:54.159
<v Speaker 1>it being quite as much of a sink or swim thing. Yeah.

1278
01:21:54.199 --> 01:21:56.760
<v Speaker 2>Interesting. One thing I did want to ask you too,

1279
01:21:57.039 --> 01:22:02.359
<v Speaker 2>Maybe you could, you know, let the listeners know. I

1280
01:22:02.359 --> 01:22:05.680
<v Speaker 2>think a lot of people get confused with the rituals

1281
01:22:05.680 --> 01:22:08.239
<v Speaker 2>that Cruelly actually wrote. I like a lot of people,

1282
01:22:08.479 --> 01:22:10.960
<v Speaker 2>especially like in other communities like the conspiracy community, I

1283
01:22:11.000 --> 01:22:13.680
<v Speaker 2>think they think like the Pentagram ritual and the Hexagram

1284
01:22:13.720 --> 01:22:17.079
<v Speaker 2>ritual was written by you know, could you let people

1285
01:22:17.119 --> 01:22:19.239
<v Speaker 2>know like the difference between which ones were golden doing

1286
01:22:19.239 --> 01:22:20.760
<v Speaker 2>and which ones was actually Cruelly.

1287
01:22:22.560 --> 01:22:24.239
<v Speaker 1>Well, you know, let's take some of the basics, like

1288
01:22:24.920 --> 01:22:27.399
<v Speaker 1>that the golden non had the lesser ritual of the

1289
01:22:27.399 --> 01:22:31.000
<v Speaker 1>pentagram and the lesser ritual of the hexagram. Crawley presented

1290
01:22:31.039 --> 01:22:35.399
<v Speaker 1>those in more or less their golden non form in

1291
01:22:35.439 --> 01:22:40.760
<v Speaker 1>the early publications of The Equinox, but then he later

1292
01:22:40.840 --> 01:22:45.159
<v Speaker 1>went on to do his own versions of pentagram and

1293
01:22:45.159 --> 01:22:48.279
<v Speaker 1>hexagram rituals which he gave different names to that had

1294
01:22:48.319 --> 01:22:52.039
<v Speaker 1>slightly different purposes. But you know, we're his vision of

1295
01:22:52.119 --> 01:22:56.880
<v Speaker 1>sort of like a new, aon new new the Limic

1296
01:22:56.960 --> 01:23:00.359
<v Speaker 1>world version of some of those traditional rituals, things like

1297
01:23:00.399 --> 01:23:05.159
<v Speaker 1>the Star Ruby and the Star Staff, Roley's penogram and

1298
01:23:05.239 --> 01:23:12.159
<v Speaker 1>hexagram versions. But that that's probably the clearest example of

1299
01:23:12.520 --> 01:23:16.239
<v Speaker 1>things that get confused. Yeah, a lot of the it's

1300
01:23:16.479 --> 01:23:19.439
<v Speaker 1>you can't really overstate how much of Crowley's basic magical

1301
01:23:19.840 --> 01:23:24.359
<v Speaker 1>education was entirely through the filter at the Golden Dawn work.

1302
01:23:24.760 --> 01:23:28.079
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I don't thank you, and I would I

1303
01:23:28.079 --> 01:23:31.960
<v Speaker 2>would even say, in like his, his even probably full

1304
01:23:32.000 --> 01:23:33.520
<v Speaker 2>in the tree a little bit differently than the other

1305
01:23:33.560 --> 01:23:34.760
<v Speaker 2>ones would.

1306
01:23:35.960 --> 01:23:36.880
<v Speaker 1>Can you restate that.

1307
01:23:36.840 --> 01:23:39.199
<v Speaker 2>Like his his rituals, if you wanted to map them

1308
01:23:39.199 --> 01:23:41.319
<v Speaker 2>on the tree, his would even fall somewhere a little

1309
01:23:41.319 --> 01:23:44.359
<v Speaker 2>bit differently, like I think Star Ruby fools a little

1310
01:23:44.359 --> 01:23:48.000
<v Speaker 2>bit higher up the tree than the Pentagram normally would.

1311
01:23:48.760 --> 01:23:52.319
<v Speaker 1>In the sense certainly in the sense that within the

1312
01:23:52.399 --> 01:23:57.399
<v Speaker 1>ritual itself you are doing certain magical visualizations or actions

1313
01:23:57.439 --> 01:24:00.960
<v Speaker 1>that correspond to you know, sphere on the tree above

1314
01:24:01.000 --> 01:24:03.279
<v Speaker 1>to fareth and really going all the way up to

1315
01:24:03.319 --> 01:24:06.319
<v Speaker 1>the abyss there, so you're kind of plugging yourself in

1316
01:24:06.319 --> 01:24:10.359
<v Speaker 1>at the pentagram level, but also stretching yourself up to

1317
01:24:10.640 --> 01:24:14.319
<v Speaker 1>encompass the whole tree after a fashion, and the traditional

1318
01:24:14.399 --> 01:24:18.680
<v Speaker 1>golden down style lesser pentagrammatol doesn't do that. So that

1319
01:24:18.800 --> 01:24:19.560
<v Speaker 1>is a good example.

1320
01:24:21.279 --> 01:24:23.319
<v Speaker 2>The one thing I did want to ask you about

1321
01:24:23.399 --> 01:24:27.399
<v Speaker 2>you and your hexagram ritual not to put you on

1322
01:24:27.439 --> 01:24:30.239
<v Speaker 2>the spot. I do think, if I remember correctly, in

1323
01:24:30.319 --> 01:24:33.119
<v Speaker 2>living the Lima, you actually do change a little bit

1324
01:24:33.640 --> 01:24:35.960
<v Speaker 2>compared to how it was. I think the wording for

1325
01:24:36.039 --> 01:24:38.920
<v Speaker 2>like a pophus and maybe even something with isis I

1326
01:24:38.920 --> 01:24:41.560
<v Speaker 2>think you might have changed it up. Could you tell

1327
01:24:41.600 --> 01:24:43.239
<v Speaker 2>us why?

1328
01:24:43.319 --> 01:24:48.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah? So when Crowley published his When Crowley published The

1329
01:24:48.079 --> 01:24:52.119
<v Speaker 1>Equinox and he published the traditional Golden Don versions of

1330
01:24:52.159 --> 01:24:55.880
<v Speaker 1>the pentagram and hexagram rituals, this was before he had

1331
01:24:56.000 --> 01:24:58.960
<v Speaker 1>fully embraced what the law of Felima was going to

1332
01:24:59.000 --> 01:25:01.319
<v Speaker 1>be in his life and how he wanted to teach

1333
01:25:01.359 --> 01:25:04.359
<v Speaker 1>that and what that what the implications would be for

1334
01:25:04.600 --> 01:25:11.880
<v Speaker 1>rituals or doctrines or whatever, so and what he what

1335
01:25:11.960 --> 01:25:14.159
<v Speaker 1>he eventually did with the star Sapphire as a hexa

1336
01:25:14.159 --> 01:25:18.359
<v Speaker 1>gram ritual doesn't really replace the function of the traditional

1337
01:25:18.720 --> 01:25:21.800
<v Speaker 1>ritual of the Hexagram in terms of being able to

1338
01:25:21.840 --> 01:25:27.279
<v Speaker 1>invoke or banish specific planets or zodiacal regions and things

1339
01:25:27.319 --> 01:25:32.520
<v Speaker 1>like that. So so what I felt, I and of

1340
01:25:32.560 --> 01:25:38.960
<v Speaker 1>course double the Silver Star. We have private different versions

1341
01:25:39.000 --> 01:25:42.119
<v Speaker 1>that accomplished the same thing. But what I did in

1342
01:25:42.199 --> 01:25:44.680
<v Speaker 1>Living Thalma was I wanted to talk about the x

1343
01:25:44.720 --> 01:25:47.840
<v Speaker 1>Gram Ritual. I didn't want to just represent an old,

1344
01:25:47.840 --> 01:25:51.359
<v Speaker 1>aon so to speak, version from Crowley's early days before

1345
01:25:51.359 --> 01:25:55.159
<v Speaker 1>he really had time to think it through more. And

1346
01:25:55.359 --> 01:25:58.000
<v Speaker 1>so I tried to come up with like a Thlemic

1347
01:25:58.159 --> 01:26:01.439
<v Speaker 1>era version of the hex Grammatual that would let go

1348
01:26:01.520 --> 01:26:06.079
<v Speaker 1>of some of the vaguely Christianized symbolism that was left

1349
01:26:06.079 --> 01:26:08.279
<v Speaker 1>over in the Golden Dawn terms of the Dying God

1350
01:26:08.359 --> 01:26:11.319
<v Speaker 1>formula as we know it, that sort of christ formula,

1351
01:26:11.880 --> 01:26:15.399
<v Speaker 1>and make it more Selenic. So I changed some of

1352
01:26:15.439 --> 01:26:19.760
<v Speaker 1>the terminology and intention behind the work there. But the

1353
01:26:19.800 --> 01:26:23.479
<v Speaker 1>other thing is when Crowley published the hex Gram Ritual,

1354
01:26:23.560 --> 01:26:28.239
<v Speaker 1>this is really nerdy, and I apologize, but for those

1355
01:26:28.319 --> 01:26:32.840
<v Speaker 1>doing a deep dive, the original publication of the hex

1356
01:26:32.960 --> 01:26:39.840
<v Speaker 1>Gram Ritual by Croley described how the hex Gram Ritual

1357
01:26:39.840 --> 01:26:42.239
<v Speaker 1>would have been done within the vault of the Golden Dawn,

1358
01:26:42.319 --> 01:26:45.720
<v Speaker 1>the second order vault, where the attributions to the quarters

1359
01:26:45.720 --> 01:26:49.760
<v Speaker 1>are different. And so what I presented in leming Thalma

1360
01:26:49.960 --> 01:26:53.720
<v Speaker 1>was how someone approaching this work as an aspirant not

1361
01:26:53.880 --> 01:26:56.119
<v Speaker 1>in the presumably not in the in the in the

1362
01:26:56.119 --> 01:26:59.640
<v Speaker 1>golden non second order vault, would would do it with

1363
01:27:00.079 --> 01:27:02.520
<v Speaker 1>the elements in the quarters just the same as they

1364
01:27:02.520 --> 01:27:06.039
<v Speaker 1>are in the pentagram control. But that was another important

1365
01:27:06.039 --> 01:27:08.960
<v Speaker 1>part of the way I presented it. That's different from

1366
01:27:08.960 --> 01:27:10.159
<v Speaker 1>some other published sources.

1367
01:27:10.439 --> 01:27:12.119
<v Speaker 2>I forgot about that, I do, Yeah, I do think

1368
01:27:12.119 --> 01:27:13.920
<v Speaker 2>I remember there could be a difference where it be

1369
01:27:13.960 --> 01:27:16.680
<v Speaker 2>like either air or fire. You're starting off within the east, right,

1370
01:27:16.840 --> 01:27:18.840
<v Speaker 2>depending on how I could be wrong on.

1371
01:27:18.800 --> 01:27:21.960
<v Speaker 1>It, right, Yeah, that so you know, like in a

1372
01:27:22.039 --> 01:27:25.600
<v Speaker 1>pentagramm ntrol, you've got air in the east and then

1373
01:27:25.640 --> 01:27:31.479
<v Speaker 1>coming around and in the So that's the way I

1374
01:27:31.479 --> 01:27:34.880
<v Speaker 1>can form the hexagramm ritual to be as well. And

1375
01:27:34.920 --> 01:27:37.720
<v Speaker 1>it's not that I did it, it's that the tradition

1376
01:27:37.800 --> 01:27:39.800
<v Speaker 1>had always done it and it just hadn't been published

1377
01:27:41.239 --> 01:27:43.680
<v Speaker 1>correctly that way with an identification of why.

1378
01:27:45.039 --> 01:27:48.199
<v Speaker 2>Nice, Yeah, I forgot all about that. Yeah, I used

1379
01:27:48.199 --> 01:27:51.880
<v Speaker 2>to see people, I guess, argue over which direction you're

1380
01:27:51.920 --> 01:27:54.399
<v Speaker 2>supposed to be starting over, which element you're starting off with,

1381
01:27:54.680 --> 01:27:57.920
<v Speaker 2>depending on I'm sure you've seen how people can mind

1382
01:27:57.920 --> 01:28:02.439
<v Speaker 2>fuck the lima on the Internet or traditional like magical use.

1383
01:28:02.760 --> 01:28:06.159
<v Speaker 2>I mean, people argue about anything sometimes, but I do

1384
01:28:06.199 --> 01:28:08.479
<v Speaker 2>get it there is there's a difference depending on the situation.

1385
01:28:09.439 --> 01:28:10.600
<v Speaker 1>And if we are arguing.

1386
01:28:12.479 --> 01:28:15.359
<v Speaker 4>Right, people are still arguing over the thought that in

1387
01:28:15.439 --> 01:28:18.319
<v Speaker 4>what Crowley did there, So yeah, he laid out of

1388
01:28:18.399 --> 01:28:20.479
<v Speaker 4>his reasons pretty well, so you know, I kind of

1389
01:28:20.520 --> 01:28:23.039
<v Speaker 4>agree with him a little bit more. But what are

1390
01:28:23.079 --> 01:28:25.960
<v Speaker 4>your thoughts on that, the changes to the thought that

1391
01:28:26.199 --> 01:28:27.119
<v Speaker 4>versus the right of way?

1392
01:28:28.720 --> 01:28:34.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean primarily the the the Hazoti switch in

1393
01:28:34.720 --> 01:28:39.239
<v Speaker 1>terms of the the Emperor and the and the priestess.

1394
01:28:40.079 --> 01:28:43.439
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry, the Star and the priests, the Star and

1395
01:28:43.479 --> 01:28:48.960
<v Speaker 1>the Emperor, I get this right, being swapped in their

1396
01:28:49.000 --> 01:28:55.000
<v Speaker 1>places on the tree or the attributions to them and so.

1397
01:28:59.000 --> 01:29:01.199
<v Speaker 1>And I've grown up up with the thought deck, so

1398
01:29:01.239 --> 01:29:04.600
<v Speaker 1>it's a little hard to feel it the old way,

1399
01:29:04.960 --> 01:29:08.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, and say, you know, here's the different vibe,

1400
01:29:08.800 --> 01:29:12.560
<v Speaker 1>because it never really lived with with the the the

1401
01:29:12.840 --> 01:29:17.560
<v Speaker 1>pre crole version. But certainly there's there's a lot of debate.

1402
01:29:17.640 --> 01:29:19.359
<v Speaker 1>I'm I'm the last person who's gonna come in here

1403
01:29:19.359 --> 01:29:22.760
<v Speaker 1>and say there's one correct tarro or something like that.

1404
01:29:24.039 --> 01:29:26.479
<v Speaker 1>I think it's it's pretty evident from our discussion here

1405
01:29:26.520 --> 01:29:29.560
<v Speaker 1>that there's lots of ways to get effective work done,

1406
01:29:29.600 --> 01:29:34.640
<v Speaker 1>and arguing just delays our progress.

1407
01:29:37.119 --> 01:29:40.800
<v Speaker 5>Do you do you think that Book four is still

1408
01:29:40.800 --> 01:29:43.479
<v Speaker 5>one of the greatest homes to read for somebody who

1409
01:29:43.520 --> 01:29:47.239
<v Speaker 5>not only wants to be a beginner, but also somebody

1410
01:29:47.239 --> 01:29:48.760
<v Speaker 5>who is an advanced practitioner.

1411
01:29:50.479 --> 01:29:53.439
<v Speaker 1>Well, if you have aspirations to to work in a

1412
01:29:53.479 --> 01:29:57.319
<v Speaker 1>the limit context, that's indispensable. You know, we're talking about

1413
01:29:57.319 --> 01:30:01.520
<v Speaker 1>the big Blue Book for the big which contains the

1414
01:30:01.640 --> 01:30:03.359
<v Speaker 1>Little Book for which used to be the only thing

1415
01:30:03.399 --> 01:30:07.840
<v Speaker 1>out there. I'll Book four. But yeah, it is such

1416
01:30:07.840 --> 01:30:13.159
<v Speaker 1>a compendium of important stuff and a pretty impressive editorial

1417
01:30:13.199 --> 01:30:19.359
<v Speaker 1>apparatus as well, which weaves it all together. It's probably

1418
01:30:19.399 --> 01:30:21.960
<v Speaker 1>not the best book for a beginner to pick up

1419
01:30:21.960 --> 01:30:24.880
<v Speaker 1>and say, let me get into Crowley, unless you're really

1420
01:30:24.880 --> 01:30:29.039
<v Speaker 1>going to start at the beginning and of the book

1421
01:30:29.239 --> 01:30:32.760
<v Speaker 1>and focus on some of those preliminary materials first. But

1422
01:30:32.960 --> 01:30:36.680
<v Speaker 1>I think that things like you didn't ask this question,

1423
01:30:36.760 --> 01:30:42.039
<v Speaker 1>but I think things like eight lectures on yoga, maybe

1424
01:30:42.079 --> 01:30:47.119
<v Speaker 1>Magic without Tears in terms of ely stuff that might

1425
01:30:47.159 --> 01:30:50.159
<v Speaker 1>be more approachable for a beginner. And then you know,

1426
01:30:50.159 --> 01:30:52.720
<v Speaker 1>there is some good modern stuff out there, and obviously

1427
01:30:53.520 --> 01:30:58.439
<v Speaker 1>my books, but Alan Duquet does great tacts that are

1428
01:30:58.439 --> 01:31:03.960
<v Speaker 1>good for beginners too, and so we continue to grow.

1429
01:31:04.600 --> 01:31:07.640
<v Speaker 5>Yeah. Nice. Yeah. My first two were Book of Thoth

1430
01:31:08.159 --> 01:31:10.680
<v Speaker 5>and twenty years ago and at the same time, the

1431
01:31:10.680 --> 01:31:15.199
<v Speaker 5>Big Blue Brick and I haven't looked back since.

1432
01:31:15.800 --> 01:31:16.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

1433
01:31:16.359 --> 01:31:19.319
<v Speaker 5>Yeah. And what's beautiful about those things is that they

1434
01:31:19.439 --> 01:31:22.600
<v Speaker 5>like unveil themselves, you know. So it's like it was

1435
01:31:22.760 --> 01:31:25.319
<v Speaker 5>meaning Like the Book of Thoth was so meaningless and

1436
01:31:25.399 --> 01:31:27.800
<v Speaker 5>yet had so much meaning at the same time where

1437
01:31:27.840 --> 01:31:30.680
<v Speaker 5>I'm all like, oh my lord, I knowed this means something.

1438
01:31:31.279 --> 01:31:34.319
<v Speaker 5>I need to figure out what is going on with

1439
01:31:34.399 --> 01:31:37.239
<v Speaker 5>this because you get little little gems and stars as

1440
01:31:37.279 --> 01:31:41.079
<v Speaker 5>you're reading it, and then you can read it a year, five, ten,

1441
01:31:41.119 --> 01:31:44.039
<v Speaker 5>twenty years later you're like, now it's it's unfolding, like

1442
01:31:44.079 --> 01:31:47.359
<v Speaker 5>a hyper sigil or like a great diagram.

1443
01:31:47.039 --> 01:31:49.840
<v Speaker 1>Right exactly. I mean it's kind of a universal experience.

1444
01:31:49.880 --> 01:31:53.720
<v Speaker 1>I think of people are approaching this work that whenever

1445
01:31:53.760 --> 01:31:58.960
<v Speaker 1>you read anything, you realized you needed to read ten

1446
01:31:59.000 --> 01:32:03.199
<v Speaker 1>other things first, and so then you read those things,

1447
01:32:03.239 --> 01:32:05.159
<v Speaker 1>and then that leads to the next hundred books.

1448
01:32:05.000 --> 01:32:09.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, keep going backwards. Yeah, other directions. Yep, yeah, right,

1449
01:32:11.159 --> 01:32:13.039
<v Speaker 2>that's possibly I think part of the game, right, A

1450
01:32:13.079 --> 01:32:14.479
<v Speaker 2>part of the fun of it. Maybe, I don't know.

1451
01:32:14.680 --> 01:32:17.359
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, it's part of the journey.

1452
01:32:17.359 --> 01:32:18.279
<v Speaker 1>It's a fun rabbit hole.

1453
01:32:19.359 --> 01:32:22.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Did anybody have any other questions before we wrap

1454
01:32:23.000 --> 01:32:28.560
<v Speaker 2>it up? No, everybody should, Okay, David, was there anything

1455
01:32:28.560 --> 01:32:30.079
<v Speaker 2>that you would like to say or like leave us with,

1456
01:32:30.159 --> 01:32:33.279
<v Speaker 2>either about like you know, the lima a still just

1457
01:32:33.319 --> 01:32:36.479
<v Speaker 2>though I'll promote yourself. What would you like to leave

1458
01:32:36.520 --> 01:32:36.720
<v Speaker 2>us with?

1459
01:32:36.800 --> 01:32:39.920
<v Speaker 1>I guess, well, I've thrown out enough I think r

1460
01:32:40.079 --> 01:32:44.520
<v Speaker 1>ls and things, but I I'll kind of close on

1461
01:32:44.600 --> 01:32:47.479
<v Speaker 1>what I What I often try to do with people

1462
01:32:47.680 --> 01:32:50.199
<v Speaker 1>is encourage them that if you're interested in this work,

1463
01:32:50.279 --> 01:32:55.039
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of avenues of solid training and or

1464
01:32:55.600 --> 01:32:58.680
<v Speaker 1>you know, resources for your personal work and personal study.

1465
01:33:00.319 --> 01:33:03.680
<v Speaker 1>But the main thing is to just persist. You know,

1466
01:33:03.880 --> 01:33:06.600
<v Speaker 1>you're going to have dry times, you're going to have

1467
01:33:06.720 --> 01:33:09.720
<v Speaker 1>dark times, You're going to feel disillusioned and that's just

1468
01:33:09.960 --> 01:33:11.680
<v Speaker 1>going to happen no matter what path you're on, and

1469
01:33:11.760 --> 01:33:15.159
<v Speaker 1>know no matter how you're doing it, but don't give

1470
01:33:15.159 --> 01:33:20.560
<v Speaker 1>it up. Don't stop. Do the work even if you

1471
01:33:20.560 --> 01:33:23.520
<v Speaker 1>don't feel like it on certain days, and trust that

1472
01:33:25.239 --> 01:33:30.279
<v Speaker 1>at your core it's making a difference and keep persisting

1473
01:33:30.359 --> 01:33:31.960
<v Speaker 1>and aspiring.

1474
01:33:34.119 --> 01:33:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Thank you very much, doctor David Shoemaker. Before we wrap

1475
01:33:38.600 --> 01:33:41.520
<v Speaker 2>it up, let me have everybody real quick. Let everybody

1476
01:33:41.520 --> 01:33:44.319
<v Speaker 2>know where they can find out the other rejects, Judith,

1477
01:33:44.800 --> 01:33:47.359
<v Speaker 2>how are you? What's going on? Let everybody know where

1478
01:33:47.359 --> 01:33:48.520
<v Speaker 2>they can find your stuff.

1479
01:33:50.199 --> 01:33:50.560
<v Speaker 1>First.

1480
01:33:50.640 --> 01:33:54.800
<v Speaker 3>Thank you doctor doctor David Huemaker for sharing your knowledge

1481
01:33:54.800 --> 01:33:57.920
<v Speaker 3>with us today. It was very enlightening and encouraging at

1482
01:33:57.960 --> 01:34:01.479
<v Speaker 3>the same time. It's nice to be on the panel.

1483
01:34:01.600 --> 01:34:04.119
<v Speaker 3>Everybody else is the same too, And you can find

1484
01:34:04.159 --> 01:34:07.600
<v Speaker 3>me on YouTube and on Twitter. I'm sorry, on X

1485
01:34:08.039 --> 01:34:11.119
<v Speaker 3>as the Loom, thank you, thank.

1486
01:34:10.960 --> 01:34:13.800
<v Speaker 2>You, thank you for making it. And my man Headless join.

1487
01:34:15.439 --> 01:34:15.920
<v Speaker 1>How you doing?

1488
01:34:16.079 --> 01:34:19.399
<v Speaker 4>You can find me on x and on YouTube. Tonight

1489
01:34:19.439 --> 01:34:23.239
<v Speaker 4>We're doing more rust at Gods with jewels, so I'll

1490
01:34:23.239 --> 01:34:25.720
<v Speaker 4>tell you when I find out, but checked my Twitter

1491
01:34:25.760 --> 01:34:27.199
<v Speaker 4>to see that time's lots.

1492
01:34:27.359 --> 01:34:32.560
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thank you very much, and my man Brandon

1493
01:34:32.840 --> 01:34:33.399
<v Speaker 2>the Maggis.

1494
01:34:34.840 --> 01:34:37.439
<v Speaker 5>Yes, thank you so much. Nick, this was fantastic. Thank

1495
01:34:37.439 --> 01:34:40.880
<v Speaker 5>you doctor David Shoemaker. I've been again. Your work has

1496
01:34:40.920 --> 01:34:45.199
<v Speaker 5>been indispensable in our fields. And I was just like

1497
01:34:45.239 --> 01:34:47.840
<v Speaker 5>a giddy little school girl and Nick told us all

1498
01:34:47.880 --> 01:34:49.600
<v Speaker 5>that you were going to be coming on. So this

1499
01:34:49.840 --> 01:34:53.359
<v Speaker 5>was fantastic. Everyone, come check me out. So I'm going

1500
01:34:53.439 --> 01:34:55.359
<v Speaker 5>to be doing a lot dropping a lot of different

1501
01:34:55.439 --> 01:34:58.359
<v Speaker 5>videos coming up with my live streams with I have

1502
01:34:58.479 --> 01:35:01.399
<v Speaker 5>doctor Heatherlin coming on. I've got all kind I got

1503
01:35:01.439 --> 01:35:03.359
<v Speaker 5>American Esoteric, we got all kinds of stuff going on.

1504
01:35:03.439 --> 01:35:06.520
<v Speaker 5>To go over to a YouTube Magas in the Media

1505
01:35:06.920 --> 01:35:11.640
<v Speaker 5>X Magas in the Media on Instagram. Thank you again,

1506
01:35:12.319 --> 01:35:13.199
<v Speaker 5>Thank you Brad.

1507
01:35:13.399 --> 01:35:14.319
<v Speaker 2>And Robbie Marx.

1508
01:35:15.760 --> 01:35:18.399
<v Speaker 6>Yes, this was great, Thank you doctor Shoemaker. It was

1509
01:35:18.439 --> 01:35:19.960
<v Speaker 6>great to meet you and talk to you. And I

1510
01:35:20.000 --> 01:35:23.760
<v Speaker 6>appreciate your time that you spent with us as far

1511
01:35:23.800 --> 01:35:28.239
<v Speaker 6>as myself R Marx Robbie Marx artist illustrator. You can

1512
01:35:28.319 --> 01:35:30.079
<v Speaker 6>check out all my stuff on my link tree at

1513
01:35:30.119 --> 01:35:32.920
<v Speaker 6>link tree r M A r X and that'll pull

1514
01:35:33.000 --> 01:35:35.000
<v Speaker 6>up everything for you. And thanks again Nick.

1515
01:35:35.199 --> 01:35:39.520
<v Speaker 2>No, thank you, I appreciate it. And again doctor David Chumakan,

1516
01:35:39.560 --> 01:35:41.239
<v Speaker 2>thank you so much for coming on. It was really

1517
01:35:41.319 --> 01:35:45.399
<v Speaker 2>a pleasure. Again, like I mean, you really hugely shaped

1518
01:35:45.520 --> 01:35:48.279
<v Speaker 2>my outlook on magic. There was a time where I

1519
01:35:48.319 --> 01:35:50.880
<v Speaker 2>wasn't sure about it anymore, and looking at the way

1520
01:35:50.920 --> 01:35:53.199
<v Speaker 2>you did it was really what kept me in it,

1521
01:35:53.239 --> 01:35:54.960
<v Speaker 2>and I do believe is what helped me have the

1522
01:35:55.000 --> 01:35:58.239
<v Speaker 2>experiences they did. So again it you're just a very

1523
01:35:58.279 --> 01:36:00.600
<v Speaker 2>influential person and I can't thank you for coming on

1524
01:36:00.640 --> 01:36:03.039
<v Speaker 2>the show. This is totally blowing my mind and it

1525
01:36:03.159 --> 01:36:05.079
<v Speaker 2>was really a selfish treat for myself to even have

1526
01:36:05.079 --> 01:36:08.319
<v Speaker 2>a conversation with you. But I do think you left

1527
01:36:08.359 --> 01:36:11.039
<v Speaker 2>the listeners with a lot of great information as well, so.

1528
01:36:11.239 --> 01:36:14.920
<v Speaker 1>I appreciate it. It's been delightful and enjoyed meeting you

1529
01:36:14.960 --> 01:36:18.119
<v Speaker 1>all and great great questions and discussions. So thank you

1530
01:36:18.199 --> 01:36:18.720
<v Speaker 1>very much.

1531
01:36:18.640 --> 01:36:20.960
<v Speaker 2>Of course, no, thank you, and thank you everybody in

1532
01:36:21.000 --> 01:36:22.680
<v Speaker 2>the chat that's where we go live. Thank you for

1533
01:36:22.720 --> 01:36:25.319
<v Speaker 2>the questions and the comments. And until the next one,

1534
01:36:25.439 --> 01:36:27.079
<v Speaker 2>everybody be well. Lena