1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,719 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,559 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,759 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,079 in crime, Bill Thomas. 14 00:00:44,119 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 4: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly. 15 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:47,719 Speaker 2: And I'm Bill Thomas. 16 00:00:48,799 --> 00:00:50,679 Speaker 4: I was about to mix it up and say I'm 17 00:00:50,679 --> 00:00:53,280 Bill Thomas, but just to see how you would. 18 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,479 Speaker 2: React, I could say, and I'm Kristin Dilly. You think 19 00:00:57,479 --> 00:00:58,600 people would be confused. 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 4: You are the one with the velvet golden voice, and 21 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:08,519 I'm definitely not velvet voiced, so probably I don't think 22 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:10,760 there would be any way to confuse the two of us. 23 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 2: I like your voice just fine, Bill Thomas. 24 00:01:14,439 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 4: I sometimes do, sometimes do other times not so much. 25 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:21,879 Speaker 2: I'd like you to refer to me as Kristin Dilly 26 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:28,599 throughout this entire podcast. It might be hard to remember. 27 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:33,879 Speaker 4: Actually, I figured it would be a nice way to 28 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,599 three off your stride very first thing. Minute one. 29 00:01:37,519 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, consider me thrown. 30 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, keep you on your toes a little bit. We 31 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,879 are into oh how many weeks into this whole new 32 00:01:46,159 --> 00:01:49,280 world of Colonial Parkway murders coverage? Are we now three weeks? 33 00:01:49,319 --> 00:01:49,840 Four weeks? 34 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 2: Oh, it's got to be four six months a year. Yeah. 35 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,239 Time flies when you're having fun. 36 00:01:55,439 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, and not Bill Thomas time either, but actual regular time. 37 00:01:59,319 --> 00:02:03,799 Speaker 2: You mean, everything from January eighth, twenty twenty four forward 38 00:02:03,959 --> 00:02:05,439 is how we're measuring things. 39 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:08,479 Speaker 4: I feel like it is honestly when I talk to 40 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:10,599 people and they're like, oh, yeah, how things man, I've 41 00:02:10,599 --> 00:02:14,400 been like since January eight, things have been nuts everything 42 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,120 for me. For Kristin Dilly, time is being reckoned forward 43 00:02:18,159 --> 00:02:20,159 from January eight for me too. 44 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:24,879 Speaker 2: And then I also find myself really annoyed because I 45 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,840 see articles and I'll go back and I'll read them 46 00:02:27,879 --> 00:02:30,360 for the first time, or perhaps so the fifth time. 47 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,759 I'm still very troubled by the amount of misinformation that 48 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,639 was included with that press conference. I guess it's up 49 00:02:37,719 --> 00:02:41,080 to people like us to set the record straight in 50 00:02:41,199 --> 00:02:44,680 terms of what's gone on with the Colonial Parkray murders, 51 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:49,560 our media partners and Blaine Pardoh and so many people 52 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,639 have come forward. But it just feels like we're pushing 53 00:02:52,719 --> 00:02:55,680 back against a lot of misinformation that was put out 54 00:02:55,719 --> 00:03:01,199 there and just glossing over really important aspects of this investigation, 55 00:03:01,719 --> 00:03:05,520 pretending that, oh, we didn't mention that Alan Wade Wilmer 56 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,319 was suspect number one, and the Keith call and Cassandra 57 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:13,120 Haley disappearance must have slipped our minds. Things like that, 58 00:03:13,159 --> 00:03:16,560 where you just say, please, do we really have to 59 00:03:16,599 --> 00:03:17,520 play these games? 60 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:20,479 Speaker 4: I have said before and I will continue to say it. 61 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,840 I believe the FBI has a bit of a transparency problem, 62 00:03:24,039 --> 00:03:27,159 and I really wish that they were willing to come 63 00:03:27,159 --> 00:03:30,199 out set the record straight and say, hey, here's the 64 00:03:30,199 --> 00:03:33,479 information that we gave, here's the information as it actually is. 65 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,960 Please uptake your internal systems to reflect this information and 66 00:03:38,039 --> 00:03:41,039 move forward from there. But we also know the FBI 67 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,360 does not like to admit that they're wrong, and from 68 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,960 here we shall proceed with us continuing to give you 69 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:48,479 the real information that you need. 70 00:03:49,639 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: So one of the things that we wanted to give 71 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,800 you a heads up about is we really appreciate the 72 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,240 very positive reaction we got to our two recent ask 73 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,159 us Anything episodes in the Colonial Parkway murders. We wanted 74 00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:05,680 to thank Robert Gray for his excellent questions. We will 75 00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:08,479 be doing that again because obviously we're seeing a lot 76 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,840 of questions being asked on our social media pages mind 77 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:16,360 over Murder on Facebook and Colonial Parkway Murders especially seems 78 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,720 to be very hot these days also on Facebook. So 79 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,519 we will be coming back and asking you for more 80 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,480 questions and also trying to go back through the many 81 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,279 questions that people have asked over the past month or 82 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:32,000 so about the status of the Colonial Parkway murders investigations. 83 00:04:32,399 --> 00:04:34,519 Please be on the lookout for that, and thank you 84 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,639 so much for the great feedback that we've gotten so far. 85 00:04:39,399 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 4: And if we ever don't answer a question, it is 86 00:04:42,439 --> 00:04:44,759 not that we are trying to withhold information. It is 87 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,040 very likely just that we don't have the information available 88 00:04:48,079 --> 00:04:50,000 to tell you. We do not know it, but we 89 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:52,319 are working very hard to get answers to everything that 90 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,240 you all have asked, because you're asking excellent, probing questions, 91 00:04:55,759 --> 00:04:57,360 and so we thank you very much for that. 92 00:04:57,439 --> 00:05:01,519 Speaker 2: As Bill said, please don't consider this finger wagging moment 93 00:05:01,959 --> 00:05:04,439 when I say this, we did run into a couple 94 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:08,000 of problems. We've all got to be careful that we're 95 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:14,240 not throwing out accusations about living people who have lives 96 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:19,600 and reputations and families and their potential linkage to various 97 00:05:19,639 --> 00:05:22,720 aspects of the Colonial Parkway murders. We had a situation 98 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,519 a couple of weeks ago where someone was just throwing 99 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,240 out a person's name. Now, this person's alive and has 100 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:33,879 friends in the community. His friends responded immediately, and then 101 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:38,839 he did too, within minutes. So that's how quickly the 102 00:05:38,879 --> 00:05:42,480 World Wide Web works. It's one thing for us to 103 00:05:42,519 --> 00:05:47,040 put out a discussion point about someone that's deceased. So 104 00:05:47,079 --> 00:05:50,720 I'm comfortable talking about Alan Wade Wilmer Senior, the man's 105 00:05:50,759 --> 00:05:55,480 been dead since twenty seventeen, and other potential suspects who 106 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,680 are no longer with us. You can't slander or libel 107 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:05,360 the day, but you can damage the reputation of living people. 108 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,360 So if you said, I think Bill Thomas is involved 109 00:06:08,399 --> 00:06:10,879 in the Colonial Parkway murders. He's right in the middle 110 00:06:10,879 --> 00:06:13,279 of this whole thing, and I think that guy's a murderer. 111 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:15,839 You got to be real careful about stuff like that. 112 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:20,439 Kristin and I do moderate these social media pages, but 113 00:06:20,519 --> 00:06:23,360 we also have lots of other things we're working on. 114 00:06:23,759 --> 00:06:26,879 And quite frankly, I was horrified that someone was just 115 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,399 going to throw someone's name out there who was a 116 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:32,560 friend of one of the victims, and we're like, what 117 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,240 is going on here? And I end up, in this 118 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:39,279 particular example, just hitting the high button because I don't 119 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,879 want to see people get sued here, and I don't 120 00:06:41,879 --> 00:06:47,759 want to see innocent people's reputations be damaged by baseless accusations. 121 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:50,839 Much in the same way you're not going to see 122 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:57,199 us offer theories about other living people. This is something 123 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,839 that law enforcement has to do exploring a lot of 124 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,759 interesting options. You bet we are, and we're talking to 125 00:07:03,879 --> 00:07:07,879 a lot of people in the Tidewater area in Lancaster 126 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:13,120 and surrounding areas. Absolutely, and it's very helpful and interesting. 127 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,759 Some of it's frustrating to hear about missed opportunities, but 128 00:07:16,839 --> 00:07:20,439 we're interested in exploring things, but we're not interested in 129 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:24,759 damaging people's reputations. So I appreciate the consideration. Try to 130 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:28,519 be a little bit thoughtful about how you might put 131 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,079 forward an idea, could this involve X, Y or Z 132 00:07:32,439 --> 00:07:39,199 without necessarily naming them, because they could easily take offense exactly. 133 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 4: And I think that's good practice, not just for our website, 134 00:07:43,279 --> 00:07:46,199 but really for any Facebook page or Twitter page or 135 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,120 anyplace else where you're going to spend your time and energy. 136 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,680 It's just really important to make sure that we're being 137 00:07:52,759 --> 00:07:56,680 careful and thoughtful and civilized with our discourse. One of 138 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,120 the questions that Robert asked us on our Ask Us 139 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,480 Anything episode, we said we wanted to put a pin 140 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,120 in because we would do a larger episode about it later, 141 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,879 was his question about whether or not Alan Wade Wilmer 142 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,800 Senior seemed to have any particular aggression or anger and 143 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:16,399 hostility toward same sex couples in particular, and so we 144 00:08:16,439 --> 00:08:18,720 wanted to take a little bit of time today and 145 00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:24,120 dig into that question. There are several instances of potential 146 00:08:24,199 --> 00:08:28,279 aggression against same sex couples in the Colonial Parkway murders, 147 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:30,079 and so we wanted to spend a little bit of 148 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:32,799 time today kind of addressing that, seeing if we can 149 00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:35,519 parse together what do we think if the question is 150 00:08:35,519 --> 00:08:38,759 does he have overt aggression? Let's talk about it. Bill. 151 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:40,919 I'll go ahead and turn the mic over to you 152 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:42,840 for a couple of minutes. Now that I've teed it up, 153 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:44,360 what do you think? 154 00:08:45,159 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 2: It's an interesting question, Kristin. It really is, was Alan 155 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,639 Wade Wilmer Senior targeting same sex couples in the Colonial 156 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,720 Parkway murders. It's a provocative question, and it's not quite 157 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,720 so crazy as it might sound at first. There's some 158 00:09:00,879 --> 00:09:04,960 obvious things that are worth pointing out. First of all, 159 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,240 the first known victims in the Colonial Parkway murders are 160 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,159 Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski, a lesbian couple. There's kind 161 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:17,799 of two scenarios that could indicate Wilmer's involvement in Kathy 162 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,799 and Beckie's murder. Now, we don't know who the offender 163 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,399 is in Kathy and Beckee's murder. The FBI is still 164 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,519 working this case actively, and I know they are trying 165 00:09:27,519 --> 00:09:30,720 their best to figure out if they can create a 166 00:09:30,759 --> 00:09:34,799 link between Wilmer and Kathy and Becky, who kick off 167 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,879 the Colonial Parkway murders as we know them. There's two 168 00:09:37,919 --> 00:09:41,080 different scenarios that I think are worth talking about. One 169 00:09:41,159 --> 00:09:44,960 is we have these unconfirmed reports that Kathy and Becky 170 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:49,360 may have gone to the Yorktown Pub to grab something 171 00:09:49,399 --> 00:09:53,159 to eat that evening. You may recall that in their 172 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:58,480 autopsies they had ground beef and lettuce in their systems. 173 00:09:58,639 --> 00:10:03,080 Now bread is digested very quickly. Ground beef and things 174 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:07,279 like lettuce roughage are not digested as quickly. But if 175 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,919 you think about Kathy and Becky having ground beef and 176 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,039 lettuce in their stomachs, and you think about Williamsburg in 177 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,000 the nineteen eighties, where your late night and I put 178 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:22,080 quotes around that dining options are somewhat limited. You've only 179 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,879 got three or four choices when you're into the evening, 180 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:31,279 say after eight o'clock. You got things like McDonald's, Taco Bell, 181 00:10:31,639 --> 00:10:35,639 and places where you could get a hamburger like the Deli's, 182 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:40,159 like the Delis or the Yorktown Pub. Now there is 183 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:45,519 a football game card from McDonald's found in Kathy's car 184 00:10:45,639 --> 00:10:49,559 as well, which might indicate McDonald's, and that's definitely a possibility. 185 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:53,600 Then we have these unconfirmed reports that two women were 186 00:10:53,639 --> 00:10:58,279 seen matching Kathy and Becky's descriptions at the Yorktown Pub 187 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,200 now the Yorktown Pub. We've talked about this a little 188 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,240 bit before. I've only been there during the day, and 189 00:11:04,279 --> 00:11:07,919 I didn't go there in the nineteen eighties. My understanding 190 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,559 is there's two different kinds of crowds there during the day, 191 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,279 and there's a lot of tourists and people stopping in, 192 00:11:14,799 --> 00:11:20,440 business people, military people, watermen, all sorts of different folks. 193 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,879 Apparently at night the crowd got a little rougher, more bikers, watermen, 194 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,879 a lot of service personnel who'd be having a few 195 00:11:29,919 --> 00:11:34,279 pops after hours. And it was also a place where 196 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,360 if you knew the right code words, you could make 197 00:11:38,399 --> 00:11:42,320 a drug deal, not necessarily over the bar, but around back. 198 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:45,240 As we understand it, if you ask the right people 199 00:11:45,279 --> 00:11:48,600 the right question, you could buy cocaine, marijuana, and other 200 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,759 drugs there. It's not considered a gay friendly place. As 201 00:11:53,799 --> 00:11:56,440 we've talked about before, Kathy and Becky has the same 202 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,320 sex couple. If they went to a place like that 203 00:11:59,399 --> 00:12:02,679 would probably have to be very careful. It isn't a 204 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:04,639 place where you're gonna have a lot of public displays 205 00:12:04,639 --> 00:12:07,240 of affection. There's not kind to be any handholding or 206 00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:11,679 anything like that. It's the nineteen eighties. Virginia's conservative, a 207 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,919 lot of military. Kathy's on active duty for at least 208 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,480 the first part of their relationship, and Kathy course has 209 00:12:18,519 --> 00:12:21,639 been investigated by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service for being 210 00:12:21,639 --> 00:12:25,639 a lesbian, so they're going to be real careful. Unfortunately, 211 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,879 there were some waitresses that the FBI was trying to 212 00:12:28,919 --> 00:12:32,519 talk to who flew the coop were not exactly sure why. 213 00:12:33,039 --> 00:12:35,720 One waitress in particular said she thought she had waited 214 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:38,919 on two women with shoulder length hair, one with dark 215 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,799 wavy hair, and one with red wavy hair, which would 216 00:12:41,919 --> 00:12:45,320 match Kathy and Becky's description. Now, if somebody like Wilmer 217 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,639 were hanging out at the bar there, it's all one 218 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,240 big room, he might have seen them, he might have 219 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:56,039 followed them. Wilmer, as we understand it, did go to 220 00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:01,200 singles bars by nineteen eighty two or so. He he's divorced, 221 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,639 he has two kids and an ex wife up in 222 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,759 Lancaster County. He's down there in the Tidewater area more 223 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,519 or less on his own, And apparently we're hearing more 224 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,720 and more reports that he did frequent singles bars. We 225 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:20,120 believe that he met Teresa Howell at the Zodiac, the 226 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:24,279 after hours club, and that's conversation for another time. So 227 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,960 there's a possibility that Kathy and Becky may have intersected 228 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,440 with Wilmer or an offender like that at the Yorktown Pub. 229 00:13:32,279 --> 00:13:36,639 There's another really dark option, which is we believe that 230 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,879 Alan Wade Wilmer, who started out as a peeping tom, 231 00:13:40,159 --> 00:13:43,679 he has a history, and we believe there's escalating behaviors. 232 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,039 In other words, you start out as a peeping tom, 233 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:52,360 and then eventually you move into break ins, sexual assaults, rape, murder, 234 00:13:52,799 --> 00:13:55,639 and you can see this is the track that we 235 00:13:55,759 --> 00:13:59,759 believe that Wilmer was on. There's a very scary possibility 236 00:13:59,799 --> 00:14:02,799 that Alan Wade Wilmer may have taken his boat or 237 00:14:02,799 --> 00:14:06,919 his truck to these locations where he knew lovers would 238 00:14:06,919 --> 00:14:10,440 be engaged in sexual and romantic activity. He may have 239 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,559 actually gone there hunting. So there's this very scary scenario 240 00:14:14,759 --> 00:14:18,039 where he actually could be going to these places with 241 00:14:18,159 --> 00:14:22,759 the specific intent of raping and killing people. Since we 242 00:14:22,879 --> 00:14:26,440 believe that Kathy and Becky may have been at the 243 00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:31,679 Ringfield Plantation picnic area, which is a very quiet ten 244 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,080 acre spot, quite isolated along the Colonial Parkway, with much 245 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,120 more privacy than most of the other places that we've 246 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:41,879 talked about with the half moon pull offs along the 247 00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:46,120 Colonial Parkway. Could he have actually been emerging from the 248 00:14:46,159 --> 00:14:50,399 woods into a place that was known for same sex 249 00:14:50,799 --> 00:14:51,799 twisting if you. 250 00:14:51,759 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 4: Will, it could be in I think that's something right 251 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,360 out of a horror movie. Let's be real about it. 252 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:02,279 It's terrifying to think of being in a lovely secluded spot, 253 00:15:02,759 --> 00:15:05,559 spending time with your significant other, trying to get a 254 00:15:05,559 --> 00:15:09,200 little romantic, or just talking and watching the water, watching 255 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,639 the moon rise totally also a valid choice of activity. 256 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,799 And suddenly you've got a guy with a flashlight blinding 257 00:15:16,919 --> 00:15:21,360 you while he's knocking on the window. That's terrifying, full 258 00:15:21,399 --> 00:15:25,159 stop terrifying. I hate the idea of that. That is 259 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:29,120 absolutely nuts to me. And suddenly, because you had used 260 00:15:29,159 --> 00:15:32,799 the words lover's Lane, I'm suddenly realizing that the name 261 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,919 of our Oxygen series maybe isn't as bad as we 262 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:38,720 thought it was, and it might be a little more 263 00:15:38,759 --> 00:15:40,879 on the nose. And that's scary to me as well. 264 00:15:41,279 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 2: No, I think you're right. I'm fairly certain that Kathy 265 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,039 and Becky were not killed at the Cheatham Annex overlook, 266 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,159 which is where the car is found, because it's so close, 267 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:55,480 literally fifty feet or so from the surface of the 268 00:15:55,559 --> 00:16:00,159 roadway that is the Colonial Parkway, So there's no privacy there. 269 00:16:00,559 --> 00:16:03,360 If you wanted to be romantic or commit a crime 270 00:16:03,559 --> 00:16:07,840 for that matter, would you do either of those activities 271 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:12,080 in a grassy parking area that's directly next to the roadway. 272 00:16:12,759 --> 00:16:15,759 It just don't like me as a likely scenario, no 273 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,200 matter how in command you think you are or how 274 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,919 much you're in your comfort zone, I have a real 275 00:16:22,039 --> 00:16:25,879 hard time believing that Alan Wade Wilmer or another offender 276 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,039 is going to spend all the time necessary to take 277 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:33,600 the steps that were included in the murder of Kathy 278 00:16:33,639 --> 00:16:35,200 Thomas and Rebecca Dowski. 279 00:16:35,679 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 4: Absolutely, because you are talking about not only making sure 280 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:44,159 that the bodies are in the way back and the 281 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,679 back seat, you are also talking about the time that 282 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,039 it would take to try to push the car toward 283 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,879 the edge of the embankment. We know that Wilmer was 284 00:16:53,919 --> 00:16:57,399 a smaller statued guy, we know he was strong, but 285 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,639 still it takes a little bit of work to push 286 00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:03,639 a car over the edge. Remind everybody what Kathy was driving. 287 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,279 Speaker 2: She's driving a nineteen eighty Honda Civic and that was 288 00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,000 back when Honda's were smaller than they are now. So 289 00:17:10,039 --> 00:17:14,119 it's a fairly light cards under two thousand pounds. It's 290 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,680 a manual transmission, so easy enough to throw into neutral. 291 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,079 I do think one person, and as we understand it, 292 00:17:21,519 --> 00:17:25,079 Alan Wade Wilmer, was extremely strong. We've talked to people 293 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:28,359 that worked with him in his tree service business and 294 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,680 they said they would not have messed with the guy. 295 00:17:30,759 --> 00:17:33,920 Even though he was fairly shortened stature at only five 296 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:38,240 to five, he was really built from all the work 297 00:17:38,279 --> 00:17:39,960 on the water. So I don't think he would have 298 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:43,720 any problem whatsoever pushing the Honda Civic over the edge 299 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,240 of the embankment down towards the York River, even with 300 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:51,000 Kathy and Becky's bodies inside. I think totally you're probably 301 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:54,119 looking at an eighteen hundred pound car plus two people 302 00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:58,839 under twenty two hundred pounds and on level ground. I 303 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,640 don't think a strong built guy like Wilmer or another 304 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,359 offender would have difficulty pushing the car over the edge. 305 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,839 Speaker 4: We do know ultimately though, that his goal of getting 306 00:18:08,839 --> 00:18:11,559 the car into the river did not succeed because it 307 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,519 got tangled up in the underbrush. And at that point 308 00:18:14,839 --> 00:18:16,640 you're not going to get the clean getaway that you 309 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,440 were looking for. You're not just going to be shoving 310 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,119 the car over the edge and being able to beat 311 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,160 feet back to wherever the boat or the truck was. Instead, 312 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,799 then he's got to take the time to pour the 313 00:18:27,799 --> 00:18:31,640 diesel fuel. Like the matches, all of that is something 314 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,400 that you don't necessarily want other cars coming down the 315 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,400 parkway within fifty feet of you seeing you do so. 316 00:18:37,559 --> 00:18:40,920 I think that the dump site is not the site 317 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,680 where the actual crime took place. It is not the 318 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,200 primary crime scene. I can't imagine dumping the car over 319 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,720 the edge and trying to get it to go down 320 00:18:49,759 --> 00:18:52,279 the edge of the embankment. I can't imagine that being 321 00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:53,880 just a short and easy process. 322 00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:58,319 Speaker 2: No, it sounds very time consuming, and with these multiple steps, 323 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:03,839 with the strangulation by rope throat cutting, loading the cars 324 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,640 with the two bodies, Kathy in the way back in 325 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,319 diagonally across the rear seat, attempting to set the car 326 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,640 on fire with diesel fuel, which always struck me as 327 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:18,039 really out there, and then ultimately pushing the car over 328 00:19:18,079 --> 00:19:21,079 the embankment having failed to set the car on fire. 329 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,119 It's very time consuming. I'm thinking you're spending half an 330 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,400 hour or maybe longer with this car in these bodies. 331 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,319 It's a pretty gutsy move to do all of this 332 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:32,920 right next to the roadway. 333 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:35,559 Speaker 4: One of the things that I've been trying to figure out, 334 00:19:35,599 --> 00:19:38,519 I'm sure you are too, over the last series of weeks, 335 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,880 is what is he using to get himself there? Is 336 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:47,079 he beaching the boat someplace, is he anchoring someplace and 337 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,440 wading in, or is he using the truck that so 338 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,119 many people have seen? That I think changes the roadmap 339 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,440 a little bit. If he's in the truck, where did 340 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:00,680 he come upon them? Did he pull in to the 341 00:20:00,759 --> 00:20:04,039 Ringfield plantation? So then that means if he did, he 342 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,480 drove Kathy's car, had to do everything that he could 343 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,119 to try to dispose of it, and then he had 344 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,680 to run half a mile down the road back to 345 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:12,359 his car. 346 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 2: No even a little further nine tenths of a mile 347 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:18,400 from one location to the other. You're listening to mind 348 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,279 over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from 349 00:20:21,319 --> 00:20:30,640 our sponsors. We're back here at mindover Murder. I try 350 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,920 to be logical about this stuff, even though I think 351 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:37,119 sometimes we're trying to attach logic to an inherently illogical act. 352 00:20:37,599 --> 00:20:40,839 There is a reason why Becky's bodies in the back 353 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,480 seat and Kathy's bodies in the hatchback area that would 354 00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:48,960 allow an offender or two offenders to ride in the 355 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,519 front seats. So that driving the Honda, let's just say 356 00:20:53,599 --> 00:20:57,279 from Ringfield Plantation nine tenths of a mile down the 357 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,519 road to the Cheetah Mannox Overlook. It's not that much 358 00:21:01,559 --> 00:21:04,799 of a stretch. But if he's arriving in his own truck, 359 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,119 if he's by himself, a single offender, he can't drive 360 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,599 both vehicles at the same time. If he's arriving by boat, 361 00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:14,160 he has to leave the boat and then use the 362 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,359 victim's car. This begins to sound a bit like Keith 363 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,119 and Sandy, where Keith's Toyota Celica. There were a number 364 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,319 of reports that the seat was pulled well forward. He's 365 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:29,200 five to five Keith is closer to six feet, so 366 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,759 there's a significant difference in leg length. It sounds like 367 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:36,799 if it's one offender without an accomplice or someone to 368 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,759 help him move cars and stage cars. They do have 369 00:21:40,799 --> 00:21:44,039 to then get back to the boat, the truck, or 370 00:21:44,079 --> 00:21:47,640 whatever vehicle it is they're using to get to the location. 371 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,759 Speaker 4: I know someone is going to ask, I'll go ahead 372 00:21:50,759 --> 00:21:54,200 and ask preemptively. How tall was Kathy? 373 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: Cathy's five to seven. 374 00:21:56,039 --> 00:21:57,839 Speaker 4: Okay, so she's my height, all right. 375 00:21:58,079 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 2: Becky's even a little taller. I never met Backy, but 376 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,799 I think she's a five to eight. So they're both 377 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,640 good sized, athletic women. 378 00:22:06,039 --> 00:22:09,079 Speaker 4: I tend to drive with my seat pretty far back 379 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,720 because my legs are long. Would that that have been 380 00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:13,200 the case with Kathy as well? 381 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:14,279 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely? 382 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 4: Okay, So for Wilmer to drive her car, for example, 383 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:19,920 the seat would have had to have been moved. 384 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 2: I imagine I would say yes. Now, in the photographs 385 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,720 I've seen most of the time, and some of the 386 00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:28,599 photographs are reversed, which makes it a little complicated because 387 00:22:28,599 --> 00:22:31,960 they started out as slides, the seats seem to be forward, 388 00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:34,359 in other words, folded forward. So you can get into 389 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,680 folded forward. Ye, yeah, get into the back seat. Now, 390 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,279 remember when the first responders were there, they actually entered 391 00:22:40,279 --> 00:22:43,279 the vehicle. You wouldn't do that in twenty twenty four, 392 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,279 but this is nineteen eighty six and crime scenes were 393 00:22:46,319 --> 00:22:49,559 not restricted in the way that they are now. I've 394 00:22:49,599 --> 00:22:52,480 talked to the first responders who said they actually climbed 395 00:22:52,519 --> 00:22:55,079 into the vehicle. They weren't certain that Kathy and Becky 396 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,720 were dead at first, and they actually got into the 397 00:22:58,759 --> 00:23:01,240 Honda in the back seat. And then it's a little 398 00:23:01,279 --> 00:23:04,319 easier to access Kathy's body because she was in the trunk. 399 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,880 It's a little hard for me to say where the 400 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,440 Honda's seats were in relation to when the car was 401 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,720 first found. I have seen photographs in various stages, but again, 402 00:23:14,759 --> 00:23:18,119 you don't know exactly when the photograph was taken. Some 403 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,079 of them are clearly taken after the car has been 404 00:23:21,079 --> 00:23:23,880 pulled back up from the embankment and back onto the 405 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,400 grassy area, because not much detail is visible when the 406 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,839 cars nose down towards the York River. 407 00:23:30,279 --> 00:23:32,559 Speaker 4: Another question that I know people are going to ask, 408 00:23:32,599 --> 00:23:36,400 because we have very conscientious listeners and followers, can you 409 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,319 tell us what happened to Kathy's car after her death, 410 00:23:40,559 --> 00:23:43,119 because I'm sure people will be asking where's the car? 411 00:23:43,279 --> 00:23:45,759 Can we swab it for DNA. Can we use them back? 412 00:23:46,279 --> 00:23:49,200 The answer is no, but I'll let you expand upon why. 413 00:23:49,279 --> 00:23:52,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, those cars are all long gone. I've seen photographs 414 00:23:52,799 --> 00:23:56,160 of the car in an impound garage where it was 415 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:00,279 taken after it was towed from the Colonial Parkway. A 416 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,920 number of interior parts of the car, carpets, floor mats, 417 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,319 probably some pieces of the interior of the Honda Civic 418 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,480 were retained and are still in possession of the FBI, 419 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,920 but the car itself was ultimately scrapped. We have the 420 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,640 situation with a number of vehicles where the vehicles were 421 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,880 actually returned to the families, which now strikes me as 422 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,599 very unfortunate. That's how things were done in the nineteen eighties. 423 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 4: I'm really hoping that if the FBI has not already 424 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,559 tested those interior portions of the car that it still retains, 425 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,240 I hope that now would be a great time for 426 00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:39,759 them to do that, using both the MVAC from our 427 00:24:39,799 --> 00:24:43,519 friend Jared Bradley and anything else that they think they 428 00:24:43,519 --> 00:24:46,359 can use to see if maybe there's some DNA on 429 00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:49,359 those seats and floor mats and so on and so forth. 430 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,599 I think this would be a great opportunity for them 431 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,039 to test all of that. Now, let's see what we 432 00:24:54,039 --> 00:24:54,759 can get out of it. 433 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,079 Speaker 2: I believe most of that testing has been done based 434 00:24:58,079 --> 00:25:00,519 on my conversations with the FBI and the last couple 435 00:25:00,559 --> 00:25:03,079 of years. So before we move on, I think we 436 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:06,880 have two potential scenarios that immediately come to mind. One 437 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:11,119 is that perhaps Kathy and Becky cross paths with Alan 438 00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:14,640 Wade Wilmer Senior or another offender at a place like 439 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,640 the Yorktown Pub. Or that Allan Wade Wilmer Senior or 440 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,640 another offender entered what I believe to be the Ringfield 441 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:28,279 Plantation picnic area with an intent towards attacking couples, many 442 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,000 of whom might have been same sex. 443 00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:33,519 Speaker 4: In the large book of press clippings that I keep 444 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,799 from that time period, most of which is courtesy of 445 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:41,480 Joyce Call's father, who kept very detailed notes and files, 446 00:25:41,759 --> 00:25:46,240 I do have a clipping from the April thirtieth, nineteen 447 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:50,240 eighty eight edition of the Virginia Gazette, which is our 448 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,759 local hometown paper. I'm not going to read this entire article, 449 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,200 not only because it's quite long, but it is also, 450 00:25:59,319 --> 00:26:03,160 by the standard of twenty twenty four, quite offensive. Just 451 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,720 in the way that they use specific terminology with regard 452 00:26:06,799 --> 00:26:10,279 to same sex couples. I do want to make sure 453 00:26:10,279 --> 00:26:12,920 that everyone is clear about why we keep asserting that 454 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:18,000 Ringfield Plantation was a known cruising spot. This article from 455 00:26:18,319 --> 00:26:21,920 April thirtieth, nineteen eighty eight, which is shortly after Keith 456 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,960 Call and Cassandra Haley disappeared. I want to give you 457 00:26:25,039 --> 00:26:28,240 guys the context on this, and please understand that none 458 00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:31,319 of this writing is from me or from Bill. This 459 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,599 is from Virginiazette reporter Mike Lake from nineteen eighty six. 460 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,359 The unfortunate title of the article is Park Battle's Influx 461 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,480 of Gaze, and I'm going to read just the first 462 00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:47,119 three paragraphs here. Ringfield was made for families. Scattered tables, 463 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,759 nestle under towering oaks on a bluff, overlooking King's Creek, 464 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,000 and grills dot the well kept grassy areas, inviting visitors 465 00:26:55,079 --> 00:26:59,359 to spend an afternoon barbecuing hamburgers and chicken wings. Soothing 466 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,880 breezes in waves gently lapping the sandy shoreline helped create 467 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,920 an idyllic picnic setting. But these days few families can 468 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,559 be found in the park. Quote Ringfield has become a 469 00:27:10,599 --> 00:27:15,039 traditional gathering spot for gays, said David Moffitt, superintendent of 470 00:27:15,079 --> 00:27:18,599 the Colonial National Historical Park, which includes the picnic areas 471 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,599 along the Colonial Parkway. There is nothing wrong or illegal 472 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,359 with that. It's the unsavory activity that goes along with 473 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,440 it that bothers me. Ringfield is but one of three 474 00:27:27,599 --> 00:27:32,519 quote hot spots frequented by homosexuals. Moffat said. The Great 475 00:27:32,599 --> 00:27:35,839 Neck and Yorktown Beach picnic areas also attract their share 476 00:27:35,839 --> 00:27:39,000 of gays, but Ringfield's relative seclusion seems to draw the 477 00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:42,599 most activity. I'm going to stop reading the article because 478 00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:45,720 it really just gets more offensive from there. But you've 479 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,960 got it right here in writing Ringfield Plantation is a 480 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,319 place that was well known as a cruising spot. The 481 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,119 rest of the article does discuss the efforts made by 482 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,960 the folks at the park service to cut down a 483 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:03,680 graffiti to copy down the license plates of people who 484 00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:07,359 were seen loitering in the area. It's quite appalling the 485 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,640 way that it's written and the way that same sex 486 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,160 couples are referred to. However, this was the treatment in 487 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,519 nineteen eighty six. We do not condone it. We think 488 00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:19,599 it's appalling for anybody who is wondering where did you 489 00:28:19,599 --> 00:28:23,200 get that intel about Ringfield plantation. It's here, It was 490 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:28,000 well known at that point. Very interesting two potential scenarios. 491 00:28:28,599 --> 00:28:33,240 I think the Ringfield plantation one is probably spot on. 492 00:28:33,599 --> 00:28:35,880 But that does bring to mind that horrific image that 493 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,799 you brought up a little bit earlier, bill of Wilmer 494 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,039 either coming in his truck or coming up through the 495 00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:44,799 water on the boat and sneaking up to the window 496 00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:47,599 of Kathy's car. And that's not going to let me 497 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,640 sleep well tonight. 498 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 2: Now, we do have other reports that in a different 499 00:28:52,359 --> 00:28:56,599 incident with a straight couple, but in this same timeframe, 500 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,799 Alan Wade Wilmer Senior apparently came up and we've told 501 00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:04,000 you about how he used to accost people on the 502 00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:09,240 Colonial Parkway, banging on windows, demanding driver's licenses, almost like 503 00:29:09,279 --> 00:29:11,920 a cop would. But he's not wearing a police uniform. 504 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,359 He's driving his very distinctive truck. He's using the high 505 00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:18,839 beams on his truck to help blind people. He's not 506 00:29:19,119 --> 00:29:23,480 using police lights or anything like that. He's just taking 507 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,640 this highly aggressive Approachary comes up in bangs on people's 508 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,920 windows and insists they're doing something wrong or they're trespassing, 509 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,160 demands their driver's licenses, and in many examples he's trying 510 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,519 to get them to roll the window down, which some 511 00:29:35,559 --> 00:29:39,319 more cautious people refuse to do, and fortunately these people 512 00:29:39,359 --> 00:29:41,880 lived to tell the tale. Here's one thing that jumped 513 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,440 out at me from one of those reports. Wilmer approached 514 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,720 a straight couple who were engaged in making out and 515 00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:53,559 not paying much attention to their surroundings. He approached them 516 00:29:53,599 --> 00:29:55,880 in this very aggressive manner, but one of the things 517 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,640 he said was, are you girls having fun? Apparently the 518 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,039 guy had longer hair, and when he turned around, he 519 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,680 realized that he wasn't dealing with a same sex couple, 520 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,480 but he was dealing with an opposite sex couple, a 521 00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:12,720 man and a woman, and these people were able to 522 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,759 fend him off. But I remember saying to Kristen, how 523 00:30:16,799 --> 00:30:19,279 weird it was that this guy would say are you 524 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,559 girls having fun? Which is sometimes an expression that's used. 525 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,920 How weird that this would be within at most a 526 00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:30,480 year and a half after Kathy and Becky were brutally 527 00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:34,640 murdered just down the Colonial Parkway. It strikes me as 528 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,079 a really odd thing to say. 529 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,079 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, it does. As soon as you had said 530 00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:44,319 that during one of our sort of reporting in phone 531 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,039 calls at the end of the day where I call 532 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,519 Bill and say, what's been going on. I've been wrangling 533 00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:51,720 teenagers and he gives me all the information. As soon 534 00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:55,119 as he said that, that immediately sent my antenna right up, 535 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:56,559 very odd and. 536 00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: Then switching over to the Ragged Island Wildlife Refuge Huge 537 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,119 Management area, they changed it parking area. When we were 538 00:31:05,119 --> 00:31:07,759 talking with Blaine Pardo a couple of weeks ago, we 539 00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:10,359 asked Blaine to tell the story about how the cops said, 540 00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:14,759 are you here for a blowjob or some weed? Apparently, 541 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,680 this Ragged Island parking area has been known for decades 542 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,720 as a gay cruising spot. It's also a place where 543 00:31:22,759 --> 00:31:25,799 you would go to engage in a low level drug 544 00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:28,640 deal and we always have to remind our younger listeners 545 00:31:28,839 --> 00:31:31,440 this is before the internet, this is before cell phones, 546 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,599 before he pagers. If you wanted to go score some pot, 547 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,960 you had to go to where the dealers were, or 548 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,119 you had to know somebody who would say, oh, yeah, 549 00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:43,119 my cousin's a dealer, he can get you some pot 550 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,799 or whatever it was. It's very striking that Ragged Island 551 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:52,359 is another well known gay cruising spot. Could Alan Wade Wilmer, 552 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,079 whom we know was the offender for certain in the 553 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,960 rape and murder of Robin Edwards and David Nobling which 554 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,279 took place at Right Island. Could he have gone there 555 00:32:02,519 --> 00:32:06,440 with an eye towards attacking a same sex couple or 556 00:32:06,599 --> 00:32:11,359 a mixed sex couple. It's a very intriguing thought that 557 00:32:11,559 --> 00:32:15,720 perhaps this guy is going to equal opportunity offender, willing 558 00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:20,599 to attack women, men, and couples in perhaps any combination. 559 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,599 Speaker 4: Exactly when we were asking doctor Ray Carr and Jim 560 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,680 Fitzgerald the couple of weeks back that we had them 561 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,920 on the pod whether they felt Wilmer was a preferential 562 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:35,480 or opportunistic offender, they had said that probably preferential, but 563 00:32:35,799 --> 00:32:39,119 most offenders will take what they can get should the 564 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:44,519 opportunity arise. And I get the feeling that Wilmer was 565 00:32:44,519 --> 00:32:48,240 definitely an offender who would take whatever he could get. 566 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,880 I am still struck by Fitz's terminology of apex predator 567 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,359 for Wilmer, because I do feel like a shark he's 568 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,079 going to hunt wherever he sees potential prey. For Wilmer, 569 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:04,240 it seems like there were any number of spots where 570 00:33:04,279 --> 00:33:07,559 he might have done that, whether that was clubs on 571 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:11,839 Mercury Boulevard or the Colonial Parkway or the Ragged Island 572 00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:16,279 Refuge Management area. It looks like Wilmer was very much 573 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,680 an equal opportunity opportunistic offender. 574 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,279 Speaker 2: One of the things that our profilers have told us 575 00:33:23,559 --> 00:33:27,960 is that serial killers like variety in their targets and 576 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,799 that they enjoy a challenge. For example, as we talked 577 00:33:31,799 --> 00:33:34,640 about a few minutes ago, we have reports that Wilmer 578 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,599 started out as a keeping top then escalated over time, 579 00:33:39,759 --> 00:33:43,559 and we know he's for certain a serial killer and rapist. 580 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,640 He may be the kind of offender that actually enjoys 581 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:51,519 the variety, and, as our profiler friends were saying, enjoys 582 00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:55,160 the challenge of ultimately taking on a couple where you've 583 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,279 got two people and the potential risk to the offender 584 00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:02,799 is much greater because two people, one might be able 585 00:34:02,839 --> 00:34:06,039 to overpower you, or one might be able to get away. 586 00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:09,360 We've talked about that. In the Robin Edwards David Nobling example, 587 00:34:09,519 --> 00:34:12,960 David was shot twice, perhaps while struggling or perhaps while 588 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,119 trying to get away. Robin was shot once. But you 589 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:20,280 can see how in these scenarios, and Jim Clementi talked 590 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,639 about this with us in the Lover's Lane Murders television 591 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:27,840 series on Oxygen. It's a challenge, but a well organized, 592 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,079 aggressive offender can control a couple. That offender has got 593 00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:35,920 to come in with a strong aggressive attitude, perhaps use 594 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,239 a gun to establish control, which I think is definitely 595 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,360 what happened in the Edward's Nobling case. Although a gun 596 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:45,599 might have been used in some of these other examples, 597 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:47,880 it's hard for us to say because we have badly 598 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,079 decomposed or even missing bodies. 599 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,639 Speaker 4: Lots of interesting things to think about here. If you 600 00:34:54,639 --> 00:34:58,079 have any information about Alan Wade Wilmer, Senior and his activities, 601 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,480 please make sure that you reach out to the correct 602 00:35:00,559 --> 00:35:05,639 law enforcement authorities. The tip lines for the FBI and 603 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:10,719 the VSP are as follows one eight hundred call FBI. 604 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:16,400 You can submit tips online at tips dot FBI dot gov, 605 00:35:17,119 --> 00:35:23,159 or you can email questions at VSP dot Virginia dot gov. 606 00:35:24,199 --> 00:35:26,239 That is going to do it for this episode of 607 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:30,440 Mindover Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see 608 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:31,119 you next time. 609 00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:44,599 Speaker 1: Mindover Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another 610 00:35:44,679 --> 00:35:45,719 Dog Productions. 611 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,599 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 612 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 613 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,079 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 614 00:35:55,599 --> 00:35:59,519 Speaker 1: Mindover Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 615 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 616 00:36:03,639 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 617 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,119 Murders on Facebook. 618 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 619 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,599 Bill Thomas. Five six. 620 00:36:13,079 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.