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We're prohibited by mock 32 00:00:57.560 --> 00:00:59.960 eighteen plus terms and conditions applaing see website for. 33 00:01:08.159 --> 00:01:11.599 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 34 00:01:11.680 --> 00:01:14.719 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 35 00:01:14.799 --> 00:01:22.079 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker vck. Every 36 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:25.799 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 37 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.079 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 38 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:33.959 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 39 00:01:42.040 --> 00:01:46.719 Good Evening. On September sixteenth, nineteen twenty two, the bodies 40 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:50.239 of Reverend Edward Hall and Eleanor Mills were found beneath 41 00:01:50.239 --> 00:01:53.799 the Crabapple Tree on an abandoned farm outside of New Brunswick, 42 00:01:53.879 --> 00:01:57.560 New Jersey. The killer had ranged the bodies in opposed 43 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:01.400 conveying intimacy. The murder of Hall, All, a prominent clergyman 44 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:05.439 whose wife, Francis Hall, was a proud heiress with illustrious 45 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:09.199 ancestors and ties to the Johnson and Johnson dynasty, would 46 00:02:09.199 --> 00:02:12.319 have made headlines on its own, but when authorities identified 47 00:02:12.360 --> 00:02:15.479 Eleanor Mills as a choir singer from his church married 48 00:02:15.479 --> 00:02:18.800 to the church sexton, the story shocked locals and sent 49 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:24.199 the scandal ricocheng around the country. Fueling the nascent tabloid industry. 50 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:27.520 This provincial double murder on a lonely lover's lane would 51 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:30.919 soon become one of the most famous killings in American history, 52 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:35.319 a veritable crime of the century. The bumbling local authorities 53 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:38.280 failed to secure any indictments, however, and it took a 54 00:02:38.319 --> 00:02:41.919 swash buckling crusade by the editor of a circulation hungary 55 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:45.680 Hearst tabloid to revive the case and bring it to 56 00:02:45.759 --> 00:02:50.120 trial at last. Blood and Ink freshly chronicles what remains 57 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.039 one of the most electrifying but forgotten murder mysteries in 58 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:57.560 US history. It also traces the birth of American tabloid journalism, 59 00:02:57.759 --> 00:03:01.400 pandering to the masses with sordid tales of life, love, sex, money, 60 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.159 and murder. The book that we're featuring this evening is 61 00:03:04.199 --> 00:03:07.960 Blood and Ink, The scandalous jazz age double murder that 62 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:12.400 hooked America on true crime. With my special guests, author 63 00:03:12.719 --> 00:03:17.199 and Vanity Fair correspondent Joe Pompeo, Welcome to the program, 64 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:19.960 and thank you so much for this interview. Joe Pompeo, 65 00:03:20.159 --> 00:03:23.080 thank you, thank you so much. You write in your 66 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:27.280 introduction on February first, twenty and nineteen. You're at this 67 00:03:27.400 --> 00:03:32.000 Somerset County Prosecutor's office in Summerville, New Jersey. Tell us 68 00:03:32.039 --> 00:03:37.599 about this experience and before we start telling this incredible saga. 69 00:03:37.599 --> 00:03:41.000 Sure, so this was sort of at the beginning stages 70 00:03:41.120 --> 00:03:45.159 of of my research. I had started working on this 71 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:47.719 on the proposal for this book in the fall of 72 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:53.080 twenty eighteen. There's a great archive of some of the 73 00:03:53.080 --> 00:03:56.599 original records from the prosecutor's office that's at Rutgers and 74 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:01.120 their Special Collections archival department. I had gone through that 75 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:03.919 and all the information they have there, all the documents 76 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:04.199 they have. 77 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:06.719 It's based on the evidence. 78 00:04:06.319 --> 00:04:09.919 From the actual prosecutor's office in Somerset County, New Jersey, 79 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.479 which is where this case was was investigated and tried. 80 00:04:13.520 --> 00:04:16.040 So I wanted to actually go in shoot the prosecutor's 81 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:18.319 office and also, you know, to look at the some 82 00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:21.319 of this stuff firsthand. But also because I knew that 83 00:04:21.319 --> 00:04:24.199 they also had some of the physical evident evidence from 84 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:26.759 the crimes, which which obviously was not in the boxes 85 00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:29.399 of documents, which I was able to mine at the 86 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.519 at the Rutgers Library. So I made an appointment with 87 00:04:33.160 --> 00:04:36.240 you know, the evidence custodian who you know, keeps you know, 88 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:38.360 all of all the evidence for all of the active 89 00:04:38.439 --> 00:04:41.560 crimes happening in Somerset County, but as well this one, 90 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:43.680 you know, historical trophe. 91 00:04:43.560 --> 00:04:45.199 Of evidence that they've that they've kept. 92 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:47.519 So they let me come in for the morning and 93 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:50.160 you know, spend about half a day going through all 94 00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:52.920 this stuff. You know, so some of it was, you know, 95 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:55.560 the stuff I'd already seen. You know, there's witness lists, 96 00:04:55.600 --> 00:05:00.959 there's autopsies, there's you know, detective Corus bond ins, all 97 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:03.720 sorts of good first hand documents. But also, you know, 98 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:06.399 the most thrilling part of the experience is when you 99 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:09.000 know one, you know, there's just one guy who works 100 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:11.120 in the evidence unit took me to an adjoining room 101 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:12.160 and said, here. 102 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:13.800 You can go, you can go through all these tots. 103 00:05:13.920 --> 00:05:17.519 And we started going through these toats full of physical evidence. So, 104 00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:21.360 for instance, I picked up the glasses of the murdered 105 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:23.759 reverend that he was wearing at the time he died. 106 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:25.160 They're now snapped into. 107 00:05:25.439 --> 00:05:28.480 I held stockings, a pair of shrivelled black stockings that 108 00:05:28.560 --> 00:05:31.040 belonged to choir singer Eleanor Mills. 109 00:05:31.279 --> 00:05:33.480 Again, presumably she was murdered in these. 110 00:05:33.600 --> 00:05:36.199 I held a key piece of evidence, which was this 111 00:05:36.319 --> 00:05:39.759 day calendar that had belonged to this woman who became 112 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.680 the star witness of the trial, Jane Gibson, also known 113 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:44.360 as the Pig Woman. I mean, there was just tons 114 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:46.720 of stuff there that was that was fascinating. There was 115 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.360 handkerchiefs found in the crime scene. Some of the best 116 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:53.519 physical evidence, the most historically significant physical evidence, is actually 117 00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:57.040 encased in a little display, you know, downstairs, kind of 118 00:05:57.079 --> 00:05:59.480 on the way to the Somerset County Courthouse. So that's 119 00:05:59.519 --> 00:06:02.199 where you can anyone, any visitor really from the public, 120 00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:05.120 can go and see the scarf that Eleanor Mills wore. 121 00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:08.040 They can see the famous panama hat that covered the 122 00:06:08.079 --> 00:06:11.439 reverend's face when the bodies were discovered. But you know, 123 00:06:11.680 --> 00:06:13.879 being able to hold some of this stuff, it was 124 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.160 just a thrill, you know, really a morbid thrill. But 125 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:19.319 I had become a student of this crime, and I 126 00:06:19.399 --> 00:06:21.720 was now suddenly holding pieces of it. I had this 127 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:24.519 tangible connection to this case I'd been researching. But also, 128 00:06:24.560 --> 00:06:26.480 you know, I was the other part of my book 129 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:31.040 focuses on the coverage of this famous crime and how 130 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:34.120 that affected the crime, and particularly the emergence of the 131 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:36.680 tabloid newspapers in the nineteen twenties and how. 132 00:06:36.560 --> 00:06:37.480 That played into the crime. 133 00:06:37.480 --> 00:06:39.680 And I was talking with the evidence custodian about this, 134 00:06:39.759 --> 00:06:41.560 how I had also had this newspaper angle and I 135 00:06:41.600 --> 00:06:45.279 mentioned the Hearst tabloid that famously revived this case, the 136 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:47.240 Daily Mirror, and he said, oh, just the Daily Mirror, 137 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:49.279 and he said, hold on a second, and he got up, 138 00:06:49.319 --> 00:06:51.839 and he came back a few months later and he 139 00:06:51.839 --> 00:06:55.319 held up handed me this sort of packet of old 140 00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.399 newspapers that were just wrapped in plastic, not like preserved 141 00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:00.839 and you know, an acid free box things should be. 142 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:03.600 And they were about you know, ten original copies of 143 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:06.040 the Delhi Mirror from the time of the trial. And 144 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:10.879 it was just amazing to you know, very carefully unfold these, 145 00:07:11.079 --> 00:07:13.800 you know, as bits of you know, brittle newsprint is 146 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:15.600 like crumbling off the edges, and I'm trying not to 147 00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:18.160 damage them at all, but to lay them out and 148 00:07:18.240 --> 00:07:22.279 see original copies of this obscure very very now rare 149 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:25.680 Perst tabloid from nineteen twenty six. So that was, you know, 150 00:07:25.800 --> 00:07:28.920 all on all, it was a very very productive day 151 00:07:29.600 --> 00:07:31.519 of research and a fun one. 152 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:35.639 Let's get to a day in question, September sixteenth, nineteen 153 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:39.560 twenty two, at least in terms of bodies being discovered. 154 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:43.120 Pearl Bomber, which is fifteen year old, and Ray Schneider, 155 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.079 twenty three year old, found the two bodies in New Brunswick. 156 00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:50.199 You say, along the railway corded between Manhattan and Philadelphia. 157 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:53.240 New Brunswick. Tell us what they find and what they 158 00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:56.319 do once they realized their discovery. 159 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.720 Well, they're strolling down this, you know, sort of notorious 160 00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:00.959 lover lane in the morning. 161 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:04.240 Obviously we should note the very inappropriate age difference here, 162 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:06.240 a fifteen year old girl, a twenty three year old 163 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:08.800 man who is married, but a strange from his wife. 164 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:11.639 But nonetheless they are there for the exact reason you'd expect. 165 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:15.839 And they come across what Pearl observes and to be 166 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:18.720 what she thinks are two people sleeping. And she comments 167 00:08:18.800 --> 00:08:21.439 to Ray, look at those people over there sleeping, and 168 00:08:21.439 --> 00:08:23.439 he says, I don't you know, don't don't. 169 00:08:23.360 --> 00:08:25.120 Don't bother them, don't worry about it. 170 00:08:25.160 --> 00:08:28.120 They walk past, they go into a clearing. One thing 171 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:32.440 leads to another. They come back some minutes or moments later, 172 00:08:32.519 --> 00:08:35.919 and Pearl immediately is nervous. She sees the bodies once again, 173 00:08:36.200 --> 00:08:39.360 they creep closer, they realize these are two dead bodies. 174 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.600 There's not you know, in their recollections that exist in 175 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:45.639 the records I was able to find. Of the original 176 00:08:45.639 --> 00:08:48.480 witness statements. They didn't describe the bodies in great detail. 177 00:08:48.519 --> 00:08:50.840 It wouldn't be till some of the other people that 178 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:52.559 arrived at the crime scene that we would get a 179 00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:54.879 fuller picture. But they presumably thought they could tell these 180 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:58.200 people were dead. They presumably saw some bullet wounds because 181 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:01.120 when they ran to a nearby house to phone the authorities, 182 00:09:01.159 --> 00:09:03.720 they said that these people had been shot. But basically 183 00:09:03.799 --> 00:09:06.679 they came upon to what they thought was a sousing 184 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:09.360 couple on a lover's lane, perhaps there for the same reason. 185 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.080 They were there and it's turned out to be two corpses, 186 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:15.840 and they were the ones who first, you know, rang 187 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:16.799 the alarm bell about this. 188 00:09:17.159 --> 00:09:21.200 Now detectives coming. There's a problem with jurisdiction. Can you 189 00:09:21.240 --> 00:09:21.840 explain that? 190 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:25.840 Yeah, So the bodies were you know, New Brunswick, New Jersey, 191 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:27.960 is in the county of Middlesex. 192 00:09:28.320 --> 00:09:30.399 So the victims. 193 00:09:29.919 --> 00:09:31.519 And also Pearl and Ray they were coming from New 194 00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:34.759 Brunswick on this into this curve of rural hinderland the 195 00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:37.960 edge of town, and they cross onto this abandoned farm 196 00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:41.679 which veers into Somerset County in the town of Franklin. 197 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:46.240 And you know, it's not entirely clear at first where 198 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.279 the bodies lie to a late person. But the first 199 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:50.960 patrol officers that arrived from New Brunswick, you know, who 200 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:54.440 do see a more gruesome scene here. They observe that 201 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:59.200 these bodies are very carefully laid out in this way 202 00:09:59.240 --> 00:10:02.799 that it's clear suggests that these were lovers of some sort. 203 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:05.159 They you know, his arm is outstretched and her head 204 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:06.960 is resting on it. Her hand is on his thigh. 205 00:10:07.039 --> 00:10:10.240 There's there's love letters placed between them. There's a calling 206 00:10:10.279 --> 00:10:13.480 card place near his foot. It was a very precise arrangement, 207 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:15.639 and one of the one of the cops, thought to himself, 208 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:17.600 it looked almost like a mortician had done this. But 209 00:10:17.600 --> 00:10:19.919 in any case, one of them says, you know, this 210 00:10:20.000 --> 00:10:22.879 is no case of ours, because he recognized that they 211 00:10:22.919 --> 00:10:26.759 had crossed into Somerset County. So they phone their superiors 212 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.480 to call the Somerset County Detectives to come and take 213 00:10:29.600 --> 00:10:30.720 take over this crime. 214 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:31.159 Scene. 215 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:33.360 But even as the case progressed, there was still a 216 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:36.480 question of you know, where had where had where had. 217 00:10:36.440 --> 00:10:37.480 These two people been killed? 218 00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:40.360 Were they killed in Middlesex County, in New Brunswick and 219 00:10:40.360 --> 00:10:42.639 then brought to this place in Somerset County or where 220 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:43.360 they killed here. 221 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:45.120 Where their bodies were found. 222 00:10:45.279 --> 00:10:48.519 So there was kind of this dual tracked and probe 223 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:52.679 that unfolded between the authorities in Somerset and Middlesex that 224 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:56.360 led to, you know, certain tensions and certain differences of 225 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.960 opinion and created a little bit of you know, contributed 226 00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:02.080 to sort of the bumbling nature of the probe. 227 00:11:02.240 --> 00:11:05.480 Talk about bumbling nature of the probe and that police 228 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:09.159 don't aren't able to secure the scene from curious onlookers 229 00:11:09.159 --> 00:11:13.960 that arrive almost immediately. But the tabloids and the newspapers 230 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:19.080 enter this story almost immediately. Again, police don't keep media 231 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:22.120 away from these crime scenes. And there's an Albert Cardinal 232 00:11:22.200 --> 00:11:25.480 from the Daily Home News and he arrives on the 233 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:29.159 scene and does, as you write, a more thorough examination 234 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:33.919 or investigation of what police had just found and made 235 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:37.919 his report. What did he find in terms of you 236 00:11:38.080 --> 00:11:41.240 talk about letters, but also a card that was found 237 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:45.000 by the foot of this unknown men, and how does 238 00:11:45.039 --> 00:11:48.200 it come. What are the circumstances in which he's the 239 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:50.000 man and woman are identified? 240 00:11:50.159 --> 00:11:52.279 Yeah, so she You know, as you say, this is 241 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:54.840 a small town. Gossips flying. People start getting wind of 242 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:57.480 this pretty quickly. This reporter arrives at the scene pretty 243 00:11:57.519 --> 00:12:00.720 early on. He's the first reporter of men many, many 244 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:02.919 who will cover this story over the next four years. 245 00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:06.679 He notices some of the details that definitely suggest this 246 00:12:06.720 --> 00:12:08.639 is a major story, that it's a scandal. 247 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.559 Again. He he's very keen on looking at the love letters. 248 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.240 He's told actually maybe in one of the good things 249 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:15.759 that the cups dated the scene. 250 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:17.200 He asks if he can pick them up. 251 00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:19.039 They say you better or not, But nonetheless he kind 252 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:21.759 of leans down and he transcribes some bit of texts 253 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:23.240 from the love letters that he could see on the 254 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:25.840 top few pages. And he picks up the calling card 255 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:29.240 that is seen at the foot of the murdered man. 256 00:12:29.320 --> 00:12:31.759 And he picks up the card and printed in bold 257 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:34.960 Gothic text that says the Reverend Edward W. Hall And 258 00:12:35.000 --> 00:12:37.759 this was someone, you know, a prominent minister from town 259 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:40.279 that would have been well known in the community. This 260 00:12:40.360 --> 00:12:43.639 is a fairly small provincial town, New Brunswick, sort of 261 00:12:43.639 --> 00:12:48.279 a burgeoning manufacturing and academic and industrial hub, but nonetheless 262 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:51.559 still a small town. This reporter, you know, immediately realizes 263 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:54.320 that this is, you know, maybe even a bigger story. 264 00:12:54.519 --> 00:12:56.000 Then he thought, you know, it's not your run of 265 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.440 the mill homicide, between this curious staging of the bodies 266 00:12:59.519 --> 00:13:03.639 and the fact there's a very prominent local person involved 267 00:13:03.799 --> 00:13:06.480 next to someone who is an unknown woman who's clearly 268 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:08.440 not his wife. So he rushes back to the newsroom 269 00:13:08.480 --> 00:13:11.519 to get the first thing to press. One of his colleagues, 270 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:15.600 another reporter named Frank Diner, whose son I actually is 271 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:18.240 still alive. He's in his early nineties, and I actually 272 00:13:18.279 --> 00:13:20.960 spoke to him for the book. He shows up a 273 00:13:20.960 --> 00:13:23.320 little bit later when the crime scene has devolved into 274 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:26.000 this sort of circus and they're still trying to figure 275 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.879 out who is this woman. And this reporter happened to 276 00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.360 live near around the corner from the mansion where Reverend 277 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:35.600 Hall lived with his wife, Francis Hall, who's this very wealthy, 278 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:40.879 wealthy heiress, this sort of prominent woman with illustrious ancestors, 279 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:44.200 and this reporter, Frank Dyner, lived around the corner from them, 280 00:13:44.200 --> 00:13:46.399 and he says, you know, I think I can identify 281 00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:48.679 this woman because he knows he knew something everyone else did, 282 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.799 and he knew about the gossip that was fairly hot 283 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:55.200 around town that the minister was known to be quote friendly, 284 00:13:55.600 --> 00:13:57.919 I think, as he described it, with a woman named 285 00:13:57.919 --> 00:13:59.799 Eleanor Mills who was a choir singer in the t 286 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:03.200 So he goes and finds the detective of Somerset County 287 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:05.759 who's leading this case, George Tauten, and he said, I 288 00:14:05.759 --> 00:14:07.519 think I could identify her, and they bring her over 289 00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:09.200 and he says, that's Eleanor Mills. 290 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:11.000 So he identified Frank Diner. 291 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.639 This reporter is the one who identifies Eleanor Mills as 292 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.240 the choir singer. And now there's really no doubt about 293 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:20.240 what's going on there. There's philandering clergyman who has been 294 00:14:20.240 --> 00:14:22.759 having an affair with a member of his church who's 295 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:25.919 in the choir, who's also married to the church sexton. 296 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:28.480 So you know, immediately you could see how this was. 297 00:14:28.440 --> 00:14:31.480 Just catnip for the newspapers, you know, not just locally 298 00:14:31.519 --> 00:14:34.200 but all over the country, and it became a massive 299 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:37.440 story that you drove the news was on front pages 300 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:38.120 for months to come. 301 00:14:38.559 --> 00:14:41.759 What does George Tauten and the authorities do? How do 302 00:14:41.840 --> 00:14:46.759 they progress with questioning of people? There is obviously some 303 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.399 people to speak to the husband of the woman found, 304 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:56.440 and obviously Francis Hall, the wife of the slain reverence. 305 00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.879 So how do police progress in this investigation? 306 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:03.120 They actually they go after the cook golded widower for 307 00:15:03.399 --> 00:15:05.639 Jim Mills. They start, you know, as soon as they 308 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.360 officially he kind of got got wind of this through 309 00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:11.879 through back channels because you know, the news was starting. 310 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:13.360 To fly all over town and you heard about. 311 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:15.679 It through his sister in law, Eleanor's sister, when he 312 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.240 had gone to her house, you know, seeing if she 313 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:20.320 had knew anything about where his wife might be after 314 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:23.159 being missing for almost two days. But he goes back 315 00:15:23.200 --> 00:15:25.639 to his house, the detectives are there, They give him 316 00:15:25.639 --> 00:15:28.759 the news. They pretty much interrogate him right away, but 317 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:33.360 they are more deferential in their questioning of Francis Paul. 318 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:35.519 They wait a day, they give her time to compose 319 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:37.480 and let this sink in, and they go the next 320 00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:40.440 day and you know they are they give her a 321 00:15:40.600 --> 00:15:43.480 pretty They give a serious interview, but they're also pretty 322 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:46.120 They sort of tiptoe around the elephant in the room 323 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:48.320 and say, you know, were you aware of any close 324 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:50.879 friendship between your husband and missus Mills. You know, they 325 00:15:51.559 --> 00:15:54.039 you know, sort of handle hard with kid gloves to 326 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:57.720 an extent. That's kind of the first interrogations. But from 327 00:15:57.799 --> 00:16:00.720 there it was just, you know, this this torrent of 328 00:16:01.559 --> 00:16:05.480 gossip and intrigue and leads, and you know, it just quickly, 329 00:16:05.720 --> 00:16:09.080 it quickly spiraled and they had, you know, no shortage 330 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:11.240 of intriguing leads to pursue. 331 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:15.080 You say that francis you right, that she denies knowing 332 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:19.799 anything of any behavior untoward by her husband. And Jim 333 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:23.320 Mills is interviewed and says almost the same thing, that 334 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:27.559 he did not suspect his wife of anything untoward. What 335 00:16:27.600 --> 00:16:32.120 do authorities make of both of those people's claims and 336 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:33.879 how do they go and what and where do they 337 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:34.440 go from there? 338 00:16:34.440 --> 00:16:37.960 In terms of leads, I suspect privately they didn't buy 339 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:40.639 it because you know, the newspapers they were they were 340 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:44.000 reporting so much that was coming out of the investigation. 341 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:47.240 They clearly had you know, chatty detectives and officials they 342 00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:47.799 were talking to. 343 00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:49.320 So that's how a lot of this, you. 344 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:53.159 Know, the details about this clearly well known affair started 345 00:16:53.159 --> 00:16:55.440 to leak out in the newspapers. They were reporting on 346 00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:59.360 gossip that church people knew about. You know, they were 347 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:01.399 choir member who saw them arm in arm in New 348 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:03.840 York City, or you know, this incident that happened at 349 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.359 the Jersey Shore when it was clear that Eleanor was 350 00:17:06.440 --> 00:17:08.319 upset because the reverend left early. 351 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:09.079 Things like that. 352 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:11.279 I mean, the newspapers are flooded with this stuff, so, 353 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:14.359 you know, and it's not clear who their sources are, 354 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:17.039 but seems clear in retrospect looking at the historical record, 355 00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.720 they were getting this stuff from inside the investigation. So 356 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:22.799 the police weren't buying it. But nonetheless they didn't have 357 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:25.359 anything very firm. You know, they had bungled the sort 358 00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:27.839 of securing the crime scene. They didn't have a murder weapon. 359 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:29.240 You know, Jim. 360 00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:33.319 Mills had a fairly decent alibi. Francis Hall had, you know, 361 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.359 a very detailed story about you know, leaving the house 362 00:17:37.400 --> 00:17:39.559 and going to look with her brother who lived with her, 363 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:42.519 Willie Stevens, going to look for her husband at the 364 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:44.720 church the night he disappeared in the middle of the night. 365 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:46.400 You know, I think I guess in the absence of 366 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:47.119 any smoking gun. 367 00:17:47.160 --> 00:17:49.880 At first, they're they're taking these people at their word, 368 00:17:49.960 --> 00:17:54.519 and they, you know, have really not much concrete evidence 369 00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:56.880 to go on, and I think probably not much of 370 00:17:56.920 --> 00:17:59.559 an appetite to really aggressively pursue this. 371 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:02.519 This him in from this very prominent local family. 372 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:05.799 So the case takes kind of a number of twists 373 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.480 and devolves into this side show where they circle back 374 00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:12.119 to Ray and Pearl, who had found the bodies, because 375 00:18:12.400 --> 00:18:14.920 you know, it was kind of there's some suspicious things. 376 00:18:15.000 --> 00:18:18.039 His the reverend's gold watch was missing, so you know, 377 00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.559 Frances and hert camp were very keen to portray this 378 00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:22.440 it must have been a robbery gone awry. 379 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:24.759 But the question was if it was a robbery and. 380 00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:26.519 The watch was taken, why hadn't it turned up in 381 00:18:26.559 --> 00:18:29.640 any pawn shops. And they sort of suspected that maybe Ray, 382 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.200 who was this sort of you know nair duell cobording 383 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:36.599 with a teenage girl and you know, in between jobs 384 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.480 he couldn't hold down and in the doghouse with his wife, 385 00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:42.160 maybe he had stolen it. Could these could these young 386 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:45.279 people have been actually more involved than they let on. 387 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:47.160 It's curious that they were the ones who found the body. 388 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:48.759 So they circle back to them and they pull in 389 00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:52.119 also some of their friends, and detectives basically give Ray 390 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:54.240 and a friend of his name Clifford Hayes, the third 391 00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:58.720 degree all night and Ray, under immense pressure from from 392 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:02.000 a from detectives, thrilling him with no sleep, comes up 393 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:05.160 with this story, this outrageous story about how they had 394 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:07.920 been out around town the night before and he and 395 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.440 his friends, some of his guy friends, saw Pearl with 396 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:14.000 her drunk father. Her father was sort of, you know, 397 00:19:14.160 --> 00:19:16.960 no good guy. He owns like a low rent speakeasy, 398 00:19:17.079 --> 00:19:18.759 and he was a drunk and had a criminal record. 399 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:21.519 And they see Pearl and her father, you know, walking 400 00:19:21.960 --> 00:19:24.799 you know, in the direction of this this farmland where 401 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:28.039