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You're read Fading Clay. 23 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:04.400 Lupadian. 24 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:16.959 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 25 00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:20.079 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:20.159 --> 00:01:27.439 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 27 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:31.159 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:35.439 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:38.640 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 30 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:55.879 Good evening, a tragic suicide, a likely murder, wrongful imprisonment, 31 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:00.840 and gripping courtroom scenes draw readers into this com compelling story, 32 00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:05.400 giving them a frightening perspective on justice corrupted and who 33 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:11.280 should be accountable when evidence is withheld. License to Lie 34 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:14.280 Exposing corruption in the Department of Justice is the true 35 00:02:14.319 --> 00:02:19.520 story of the strong arm, illegal and unethical tactics used 36 00:02:19.520 --> 00:02:23.759 by the headline grabbing federal prosecutors in their narcissistic pursuit 37 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.560 of power. Its scope reaches from the US Department of 38 00:02:27.719 --> 00:02:31.280 Justice to the US Senate, the FBI, and the White House. 39 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:35.680 This true story is a scathing attacked on corrupt prosecutors, 40 00:02:36.280 --> 00:02:39.120 the judges who turn the blind eye to these injustices, 41 00:02:39.719 --> 00:02:43.439 and the President who has promoted them to powerful political positions. 42 00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:47.039 The book that we are featuring this evening is Licensed 43 00:02:47.039 --> 00:02:51.439 to Lie exposing corruption in the Department of Justice with 44 00:02:51.599 --> 00:03:00.639 my special guests, attorney and author Sidney Powell. Now I 45 00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.199 apologize to our audience. There's been a little mix up 46 00:03:04.240 --> 00:03:07.919 on blog talk radio in terms of the countdown for 47 00:03:08.039 --> 00:03:11.400 the program, and so when she called in Sidney Powell, 48 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:14.840 she experienced a problem. So I have just emailed her 49 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:17.719 back in the last three minutes or so to police 50 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:22.680 call back in. So it was a blog talk radio 51 00:03:24.000 --> 00:03:26.520 technical error. So we should have her on in a 52 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:32.039 couple of minutes. She is, Sidney Powell is a former 53 00:03:32.800 --> 00:03:38.280 prosecutor who became a defense attorney, and we'll ask her 54 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:41.039 what that change was and when that change was, and 55 00:03:41.080 --> 00:03:46.759 we'll talk all about her background and then her incredible 56 00:03:46.759 --> 00:03:52.120 book here talking about exposing corruption in the Department of Justice. 57 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:56.280 And this is an insider's look at something that we 58 00:03:56.840 --> 00:03:58.800 normally don't get to see and we don't get to 59 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:06.199 hear about what's so we hear stories of over zealous 60 00:04:06.439 --> 00:04:11.439 prosecutors for various reasons. And I being in Canada, we 61 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:16.160 have a different system which takes the political I guess 62 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:20.480 climbing or political aspirations out of the equation in terms 63 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:26.120 of judges and prosecutors. So we have a different system, 64 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.319 and I believe, just from the experience, from the stories 65 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:34.120 I have witnessed through true crime books and through this book, 66 00:04:34.480 --> 00:04:39.519 reinforces that that's a system that's open to a lot 67 00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:42.120 of problems. But we hold the judicial system up to 68 00:04:42.240 --> 00:04:46.480 a higher standard than any other standard, and certainly they're 69 00:04:46.519 --> 00:04:53.600 afforded that kind of respect, and as such as citizens 70 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.480 who are tax paying citizens and citizens who believe in 71 00:04:57.040 --> 00:05:00.480 these systems of government. And this is an extension of government, 72 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:06.839 especially federal prosecution, but really the judicial system is an 73 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:11.519 arm of the government, and as such we are entitled 74 00:05:11.600 --> 00:05:17.759 to understand the process and then demand that each party, 75 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:23.160 the defense and the prosecution and the judge, abide by 76 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:29.439 the rules that are clear cut, possibly evolving, but still 77 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:33.000 clear cut. And this will be a book that will 78 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:37.519 demonstrate that often that is not the case, with dramatic 79 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:44.480 and very very dramatic results. So again I apologize for 80 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:48.519 Sidney Powell, but I'm sure she will get this email 81 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:53.240 and be able to call back in and we can 82 00:05:53.720 --> 00:05:58.639 interview her about this book, Licensed to Lie. What we'll 83 00:05:58.680 --> 00:06:02.759 be talking about in this hour is things that no 84 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:04.759 matter who you are and no matter where you were 85 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:08.759 in the past, you will have heard names like Alaskan 86 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:19.480 senator forty years in the Senate, Stephen Stevens and Ted Stevens, 87 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:22.959 pardon me, Senator Ted Stevens. And we will also hear 88 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:26.519 about a company that was famous and a golden boy 89 00:06:26.560 --> 00:06:29.560 in the press for many years and then not so 90 00:06:29.720 --> 00:06:34.560 much en run American company, and we'll talk about that, 91 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:38.759 and we'll talk about her personal experience in this so 92 00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:45.439 that again we're getting an incredible insider's viewpoint vantage point. 93 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:48.160 And so when we talk about problems and we talk 94 00:06:48.240 --> 00:06:53.879 about things that arise in trials, when you're getting a 95 00:06:53.879 --> 00:06:59.560 actual account of something from this perspective, this is unique. 96 00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.199 Usually a true crime author is not in this kind 97 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:08.079 of position. There are true crime authors that often are prosecutors, 98 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:11.000 and there are some great books like Killer Clown and 99 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:17.279 Helter Skelter written from of course with the help of writers, 100 00:07:17.319 --> 00:07:23.000 but still the story coming from the incredible, unique vantage 101 00:07:23.000 --> 00:07:31.040 point perspective of somebody in that position, a prosecutor prosecuting 102 00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:38.720 someone accused of some incredible crime, and usually multiple incredible crimes. 103 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:45.480 So in this case, a woman, a strong woman advocating 104 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:52.560 for the innocent, and incredibly, this is unfortunately a glorious 105 00:07:52.600 --> 00:07:58.639 example of injustice within the judicial system in America. And 106 00:07:58.720 --> 00:08:06.160 we're talking about federal prosecutions as well, and so everything 107 00:08:06.240 --> 00:08:11.600 from murder and suicide and career ruining and traumatization of 108 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:18.720 families and the incredible cost of attorneys and the trial 109 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:23.839 and the subsequent loss of work, so incredible toll. When 110 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:30.160 injustice rears its ugly head again, I'll apologize to the audience. 111 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:35.759 I won't give this too much more time. Unfortunately, I've 112 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:37.919 had a lot of criticism for not being able to 113 00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:42.639 have the guests and I coordinate on the time. So 114 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.840 again I guess I'll take the blame here and we'll 115 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.159 just wait a few more minutes and hopefully you can 116 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:53.080 I can entertain you with some more ramblings. I want 117 00:08:53.120 --> 00:08:58.679 to also say that I've been looking at a few 118 00:08:59.240 --> 00:09:04.039 interesting cases is that have come out of Winnipeg, Manitoba, 119 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:10.639 and I really have not been focusing on criminal murder 120 00:09:10.720 --> 00:09:17.000 cases here in Winnipeg. I mean, there are some incredible cases. 121 00:09:17.080 --> 00:09:21.320 This is the murder capital of Canada and the ninth 122 00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:26.720 biggest city in Canada and one of the poorest with 123 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:34.399 all the ingredients and factors. Therefore the kind of place 124 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:36.960 that's a little, you know, quite a bit more prone 125 00:09:37.000 --> 00:09:41.919 to violence and again murder. And for anyone that's listening 126 00:09:41.919 --> 00:09:44.480 from Winnipeg, of course they will cringe. But that is 127 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:49.720 the truth, that longstanding record as murder capital of Canada, 128 00:09:49.919 --> 00:09:56.440 and now in comparison to an American city, we are 129 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:02.399 still very very low murder rate in comparison. So here 130 00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:06.759 we are with Sidney Powell. Thank god, and I appreciate 131 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:09.039 that you hung around to listen to this. So here 132 00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:13.840 we go with Sydney Powell. Good evening, Sidney. 133 00:10:14.200 --> 00:10:15.279 Hi, Dan, how are you? 134 00:10:16.120 --> 00:10:18.320 Oh fine, thank you, thank you very much. I was 135 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:27.519 tormenting the audience with about eight minutes of improm improvatizational rambling. 136 00:10:27.720 --> 00:10:31.480 We'll say so thank God on the line here. Yes, 137 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:35.600 so I already introduced the book in terms of giving 138 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:39.879 a synopsis of the book. Let's start with this, Sidney Powell, 139 00:10:39.879 --> 00:10:46.279 with give us the audience your background before we get 140 00:10:46.279 --> 00:10:50.200 into this incredible book and this undertaking that you have 141 00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:53.919 with this book. So give us your your background. I 142 00:10:53.960 --> 00:10:56.600 understand you were a former prosecutor, so give us your 143 00:10:57.960 --> 00:10:59.639 legal background please. 144 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:03.080 I actually wanted to be a lawyer from the time 145 00:11:03.120 --> 00:11:06.360 I was five years old. My mother tells me that 146 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:10.080 I would go home from kindergarten and watch Perry Mason, 147 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:15.039 and at the end of first grade, when everyone asked, 148 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.279 you know, what do you want to be when you 149 00:11:16.279 --> 00:11:19.159 grow up, and we had to stand up and announce that, 150 00:11:19.360 --> 00:11:21.519 I stood up and announced I wanted to be a lawyer. 151 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:25.000 And all my life people would say, oh, you don't 152 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:26.840 want to be a lawyer. There are too many lawyers, 153 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:30.000 And my standard answer was they're not enough good ones. 154 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:36.080 So I went to undergraduate school at the University of 155 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:40.279 North Carolina. I got my undergraduate degree five AA Kappa 156 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:44.039 and did my undergraduate work in just twenty one months 157 00:11:44.080 --> 00:11:48.159 and proceeded to law school. Interned my first summer after 158 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:51.639 law school with the US Attorney's Office in Raleigh, North Carolina, 159 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.399 and after that with the US Attorney in San Antonio, Texas, 160 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:58.879 and that US attorney decided to hire me back, so 161 00:11:58.960 --> 00:12:02.519 I became the youngest assistant United States and the attorney 162 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:06.080 in the country at the time. I graduated from law 163 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:10.159 school and was in AUSA in San Antonio. I worked 164 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:12.559 in the appellate section there for a year or two, 165 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:16.200 then did criminal trial work for a year, civil trial 166 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:18.679 work there for a year, and rotated back and wound 167 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:21.279 up heading out the Appellate Section for the Western District 168 00:12:21.320 --> 00:12:23.799 of Texas, where I filed over three hundred and fifty 169 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:29.120 briefs and criminal appeals. Became editor in chief of the 170 00:12:29.120 --> 00:12:32.840 Fifth Circuit Reporter, served on the Bar Association of the 171 00:12:32.879 --> 00:12:37.600 Fifth Federal Circuit and numerous other organizations. Became an elected 172 00:12:37.919 --> 00:12:40.639 fellow of the American Academy of Appellate Lawyers, for which 173 00:12:40.679 --> 00:12:44.679 I served as president, became President of the Circuit Bar 174 00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:47.799 somewhere in there, and then went into private practice after 175 00:12:47.840 --> 00:12:51.679 ten years with the government. I've only actually represented criminal 176 00:12:51.720 --> 00:12:56.919 defendants in four cases after I left government practice because 177 00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:59.120 I can't take a case unless I feel like I'm 178 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:02.840 on the correct side, so that kind of limited my 179 00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:06.879 criminal defense work right right. 180 00:13:09.080 --> 00:13:12.399 In that case, say that you left. You left federal 181 00:13:12.440 --> 00:13:17.120 prosecution as a federal prosecutor after ten years, and went 182 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:19.600 into why was that? Why why did you leave? 183 00:13:20.759 --> 00:13:24.120 There were several reasons. I thought it was important for 184 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:28.200 my own personal growth, and when I looked around and 185 00:13:28.320 --> 00:13:32.000 saw people that had stayed for longer than ten years, 186 00:13:32.440 --> 00:13:38.639 they seemed to get jaded and tired and cynical and 187 00:13:38.919 --> 00:13:42.360 just not have the edge that I felt like I 188 00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:46.639 wanted to maintain and the freshness and an approach to 189 00:13:47.000 --> 00:13:50.519 the cases and the practice. So I didn't want to 190 00:13:50.519 --> 00:13:53.840 get stale. 191 00:13:54.159 --> 00:13:59.679 Now, in terms of prosecutorial misconduct, and really that's what 192 00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:04.000 this book is about. Had you experience that as a 193 00:14:04.000 --> 00:14:09.519 prosecutor and working in an office, had you experience a 194 00:14:09.559 --> 00:14:12.960 lot of the things that are later that you really 195 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:15.840 aptly demonstrate in the book with the stories that you 196 00:14:16.759 --> 00:14:19.759 have covered in this book, No, I. 197 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.759 Actually experienced very little of it. I mean we're talking 198 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:25.799 twenty twenty five years ago that I was in the 199 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:30.279 United States Attorney's Office, and I was in three different 200 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:34.919 divisions under eight or nine different US attorneys. None of 201 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:37.600 the US attorneys I knew would have put up with 202 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:42.600 anything like what I talk about and found in the book. 203 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:46.679 None of them would have. I mean, we would occasionally 204 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:50.080 have an assistant US attorney who would get overly aggressive 205 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:53.159 in argument and say something they shouldn't have, or introduce 206 00:14:53.240 --> 00:14:56.000 a piece of evidence that was too prejudicial that shouldn't 207 00:14:56.000 --> 00:14:59.639 have been introduced. But in terms of anybody hiding evidence 208 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:04.279 that I exculpated or exonerated a defendant, I never knew 209 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:07.519 of any instance of that, and I knew the folks 210 00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.480 in each of our offices very well. I mean, that 211 00:15:10.639 --> 00:15:13.559 wasn't what they were looking to do. We were taught 212 00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:16.240 and trained that the job of an assistant United States 213 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:21.000 Attorney is to seek justice. And if a criminal defendant 214 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:25.720 went free and we had still done the right thing, 215 00:15:26.000 --> 00:15:28.039 that was the way it was supposed to be. The 216 00:15:28.159 --> 00:15:33.200 job was not to get convictions, it was to seek justice, 217 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:35.360 and that was hammered into each of us. That's what 218 00:15:35.440 --> 00:15:38.919 I taught in the Attorney General's Advocacy Institute three weeks 219 00:15:38.919 --> 00:15:42.480 a year for seven or eight years, and that's what 220 00:15:42.519 --> 00:15:45.720 people taught me. That's what was expected of us. And 221 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:48.799 that is why I was so mortified when I saw 222 00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.679 the conduct that I saw. That is reflected and discussed 223 00:15:51.679 --> 00:15:52.799 in the pages of the book. 224 00:15:55.720 --> 00:15:58.120 What do you attribute this change? 225 00:15:58.200 --> 00:15:58.399 Though? 226 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.600 It must have been, you know, it'd seems a very 227 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:07.799 very dramatic change in terms of the prosecution focus, in 228 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.320 terms of, you say, just to win at all costs, 229 00:16:10.440 --> 00:16:15.120 rather than the especially the federal court being the highest 230 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:20.679 standard of especially under scrutiny, you would think potentially so 231 00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:23.080 that it's a very very high standard. What do you 232 00:16:23.200 --> 00:16:27.039 attribute this dramatic change in focus for prosecution. 233 00:16:28.039 --> 00:16:33.159 I think there's been an unfortunate increase in the politicization 234 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:37.720 of the Department of Justice. I think with the advent 235 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:42.360 of instant media in all forms, there's been a lot 236 00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:48.240 more pressure on prosecutors, particularly in the high profile cases, 237 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:54.840 to obtain convictions. I think it's a number of things 238 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.399 like that, and maybe even you know, certain people have 239 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:00.440 sought out the job because of the publicity that can 240 00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:06.720 go with it or the public spotlight that can go 241 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:11.759 with it, as opposed to doing the job because they 242 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:16.039 want to do it with honor and integrity. I think 243 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:17.839 it's a mixture of things. 244 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:22.799 Just straight go ahead. 245 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:25.160 Sorry, I was going to say definitely. I think in 246 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:28.960 the last fifteen years or so, the Department of Justice 247 00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:31.519 has just become increasingly politicized. 248 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:37.240 When you're saying politicized, let me try to understand this. 249 00:17:37.480 --> 00:17:40.680 Does this come down to, And I know it's in 250 00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:47.319 terms of people looking to achieve higher positions politically and 251 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:52.599 within their own occupation, but is there any consideration to 252 00:17:53.000 --> 00:17:56.359 the idea of who's conservative and who's liberal, and is 253 00:17:56.359 --> 00:17:59.759 there any of that involved in this politicalization. 254 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:05.279 I think the Attorney General basically sets that tone. There 255 00:18:05.319 --> 00:18:07.640 are a number of people in Department of Justice who 256 00:18:07.720 --> 00:18:11.759 have been there forever, and in some ways that is 257 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:14.400 a good thing, and in some ways, like people staying 258 00:18:14.440 --> 00:18:17.200 in the US Attorney's office too long, that's not a 259 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:20.720 good thing. I mean, I really don't think anybody should 260 00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:25.200 probably be in government service more than ten years, and 261 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:29.000 that there should be fresh blood flowing through there and 262 00:18:29.160 --> 00:18:34.119 new ideas and you know, sort of a hunger to 263 00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:37.319 get things right and actually seek justice instead of a 264 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:43.680 jaded or worn perspective on the system. 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At Schumba Casino dot com. 292 00:20:07.400 --> 00:20:09.640 Billbert just necessary dally void where everybody lost the terms 293 00:20:09.640 --> 00:20:10.960 conditions eating plus and. 294 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:12.279 That I think is unfortunate. 295 00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:20.279 Why would this particular democratic government and president, Why would 296 00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.599 they why would they be inclined to do that? 297 00:20:26.759 --> 00:20:31.440 I don't know, but I think most people looking at 298 00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:36.200 this administration at this point, between the NSA issues and 299 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:42.359 the president's use of executive orders to circumvent different rulings 300 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:48.519 of the Supreme Court and courts in general, would say 301 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:54.039 that this administration has certainly done more to put in 302 00:20:54.160 --> 00:20:57.799 jeopardy the freedom of the press than any other administration 303 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:06.039 and history, and has also used Department of Justice to 304 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:11.240 seek certain ends. I'm not saying that the prior administration 305 00:21:11.359 --> 00:21:13.240 didn't do some of that too. There was a big 306 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:18.359 controversy with Alberto Gonzalez firing the US attorneys from across 307 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:24.720 the spectrum and other issues, But in general, I would 308 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:27.960 like to see the Department of Justice restored to an 309 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:33.400 organization that purely seeks to enforce the law without regard 310 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.240 to political perspectives. 311 00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:40.960 Now, in your book, in the forward, to talk about 312 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:47.559 prosecutur proscatorial misconduct, and so for those that don't know 313 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.359 or haven't heard enough of of the various things, I'll 314 00:21:51.400 --> 00:21:55.400 just describe them and we can talk about them a 315 00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:59.920 little bit. Overcharging in terms of the number of charges, 316 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:06.400 deliberately mishandling, mistreating or destroying evidence, allowing witnesses they know 317 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:12.680 or should know are not telling the truth, truthful to testify, 318 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:19.359 pursuing defense witnesses or pressuring defense witnesses not to testify, 319 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:29.440 and relying on fraudulent forensic experts. Also during plea agreements, 320 00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:33.279 overstating the strength of the evidence in the case, and 321 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.839 making statements to the media that are designed to create 322 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:42.519 public outcry, making unproper misleading statements to the jury, and 323 00:22:42.599 --> 00:22:51.519 failing to report prosecutorial misconduct when discovered. Is this to 324 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:54.880 talk about this a little bit? How tell us a 325 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:55.640 little bit about this? 326 00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:59.240 Those are all things that have been outlined by the 327 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:05.400 Center for Prosecutorial Integrity, a new nonprofit organization that has 328 00:23:05.480 --> 00:23:09.680 been formed to try to encourage change in this area. 329 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:13.799 They did a study and identified those different aspects of 330 00:23:13.839 --> 00:23:18.440 prosecutorial misconduct, and Judge Kazinski, in writing the forward for 331 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.039 this book, pointed to that study and recited those things 332 00:23:22.160 --> 00:23:26.759 as instances of different kinds of misconduct. The book itself 333 00:23:26.839 --> 00:23:30.839 deals more with prosecutorial misconduct in the form of hiding 334 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:36.079 evidence that would have exonerated the defendants, telling the court 335 00:23:36.200 --> 00:23:39.640 things that were directly the court and the jury things 336 00:23:39.640 --> 00:23:43.400 that were directly contradicted by the evidence they withheld, and 337 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:47.440 definitely putting pressure on witnesses not to testify for the defense. 338 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:50.960 There were scads of that in all the in RON 339 00:23:51.079 --> 00:23:56.880 related prosecutions and overcharging. Basically, if a defendant was willing 340 00:23:56.960 --> 00:24:00.359 to plead guilty, they got an indictment on the one 341 00:24:00.440 --> 00:24:03.960 count or were allowed to plead to one count. And 342 00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:07.440 if someone didn't plead guilty, then the counts were stacked 343 00:24:07.480 --> 00:24:12.079 and stacked against them. And if anyone voiced the view 344 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:14.680 of the facts or evidence that was different from that 345 00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:18.240 of the INRON task Force, they also threw in charges 346 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:21.759 of false statements or perjury or obstruction of justice, things 347 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:22.160 like that. 348 00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:30.359 Now, when you talk about withholding potentially exculpatory evidence, this 349 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:31.519 is the Brady rule. 350 00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:32.519 Right. 351 00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:36.240 Supreme Court in a case called Brady versus Maryland held 352 00:24:36.680 --> 00:24:40.240 a defendant has a constitutional right to the evidence that 353 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:46.480 the government has or can obtain that is supportive of 354 00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:50.559 his defense or would impeach the witnesses against him or 355 00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:57.880 would affect his sentencing. And there was Brady evidence in 356 00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.200 this case. In fact, the prosecutors that actually yellow highlighted 357 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:04.960 it for the judge before the trial, and still after 358 00:25:05.000 --> 00:25:08.880 the judge ordered them to these summaries of it presumably 359 00:25:08.960 --> 00:25:13.200 accurate summaries, they still hid the key statements and evidence 360 00:25:13.240 --> 00:25:15.920 from the defendants while they served a year in prison 361 00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:18.279 for a crime that wasn't even a crime. 362 00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:23.319 Now, before we get right into that and trying to 363 00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:29.720 understand this incredible trial, what's interesting, I think is that 364 00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:32.279 most people know that if it's a bad guy, a 365 00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:36.039 really bad guy, then we've watched television and we understand it. 366 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:39.440 The prosecutor would be more eager to try to bend 367 00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:42.039 the rules to bust a guy that or bust people 368 00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:47.400 that are are monstrous, and they avoid prosecution time after time. 369 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:53.039 But in this holding back potentially exculpatory material on people 370 00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:59.000 that are in business or in government, why would Again, 371 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:02.559 that's why I asked the question about politicalization. It seems 372 00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:07.480 somewhat political or personal or something else when they're that 373 00:26:08.200 --> 00:26:12.599 zealous and vigorous in their prosecution of people that are 374 00:26:13.799 --> 00:26:17.519 not what people would think are typically the bad guy. 375 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.200 Right. There's been an also increasing trend toward what's called 376 00:26:22.240 --> 00:26:27.119 the over criminalization of the law, prosecutors stretching to make 377 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:32.200 crimes out of things that are really civil issues. And 378 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:35.000 what separates the civil issue from a criminal issue is 379 00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:38.119 really criminal intent. I mean, if you don't intend to 380 00:26:39.279 --> 00:26:43.039 commit a crime against someone, it's usually covered and it's 381 00:26:43.079 --> 00:26:45.920 still wrong, and it's not that hard to tell. If 382 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:52.480 something's wrong, it's usually covered by civil law. And most 383 00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:55.720 of the inrun and inrun related offenses could have been 384 00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:58.920 covered and should have been covered by civil law, and 385 00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:03.599 instead there was so public outrage and public outcry in 386 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:07.119 the wake of the collapse of Enron, the Department of 387 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:12.000 Justice immediately appointed the Inron Task Force, untethered them from 388 00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.160 the Department of Justice so they had no adult supervision, 389 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:21.920 and set them about to find the criminals. And they 390 00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:25.759 simply got way over zealous in their effort to do that. 391 00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:29.640 They made crimes out of things. They took pieces of 392 00:27:29.680 --> 00:27:32.880 different statutes that had never been put together to create 393 00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:35.519 a crime before, and said, oh, this is a crime, 394 00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:41.160 and indicted it, and indicted people who were doing business 395 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:43.480 deals and thought they were well within the law and 396 00:27:43.599 --> 00:27:46.039 what they were doing. In fact, they were relying on 397 00:27:46.079 --> 00:27:50.839 their own corporate counsel and doing it and wound up 398 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:53.519 serving a year in prison for something, as it turns out, 399 00:27:53.640 --> 00:27:55.920 was not a crime, because even the Fifth Circuit would 400 00:27:55.960 --> 00:28:01.599 not give them bail pending appeal. The outrage was so strong, incredible, incredible. Yeah, 401 00:28:01.640 --> 00:28:06.440