WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.160 Usually when you watch the sport, you never think that 2 00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:04.480 you could play with like an elite athlete and let 3 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:07.519 alone be at that level, and poker offers you that chance. 4 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:10.279 Hey, this is remco. Thanks for clicking on a video. 5 00:00:10.480 --> 00:00:12.720 This is my brand new podcast called Face the Ace, 6 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:15.000 in which I talked to the most interesting people in 7 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:18.280 poker and go a little deeper into the topics you 8 00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:19.039 most care about. 9 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:19.719 Enjoy. 10 00:00:21.039 --> 00:00:23.280 Welcome to a new episode of Face Das. My name 11 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:26.239 is Rem Krienkama, joined today by Philip Sternheimer, one of 12 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:29.440 my favorites to root for a very compelling story, will 13 00:00:29.480 --> 00:00:32.679 dive very deep into it. I don't think you need 14 00:00:32.679 --> 00:00:35.920 an introduction anymore, but I'll just give the brief rundown 15 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:38.359 for those who've been living under red rock. We got 16 00:00:38.359 --> 00:00:41.320 a bracelet winner in our midst someone with a long 17 00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:45.159 career in private equity, a father, two daughters, and a dog. 18 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:49.439 Many got to mention the dog and a drive that, 19 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:53.320 in my opinion, is hard to find for someone with 20 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:55.640 that level of success in the business world that I 21 00:00:55.640 --> 00:00:58.799 don't also try to translate that into the poker table. 22 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:03.039 So first off, welcome to the show. Second off, how's 23 00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:03.960 the summer been so far. 24 00:01:04.480 --> 00:01:07.120 Well, first of all, thank you excited to be here? 25 00:01:07.760 --> 00:01:09.040 Am I the as are you the ace? 26 00:01:09.719 --> 00:01:11.840 At the end of the show, we'll decide, well, we'll 27 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:12.560 do the big reveal. 28 00:01:14.680 --> 00:01:17.760 Summer is going below expectations, I would say, but you know, 29 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:20.439 still have a bunch of events left, and you know, 30 00:01:20.480 --> 00:01:22.560 I'm I'm at peace if it's not the summer that 31 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:25.959 I hoped it would be. And I have a lot 32 00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:28.359 of events left where I can compete, so every event 33 00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:29.959 can be the next big one. 34 00:01:30.400 --> 00:01:33.680 So I know that the emotions that you felt when 35 00:01:33.719 --> 00:01:37.239 you won your bracelet, that is something that winning a second, third, 36 00:01:37.319 --> 00:01:41.000 or fourth might never match again. But is that still 37 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:44.439 the drive to win more bracelets or are you just 38 00:01:44.519 --> 00:01:48.040 here to make money, have fun, test yourself, Like, what's 39 00:01:48.079 --> 00:01:48.599 the motivation? 40 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:52.120 Yeah, I would say the main motivation is to play 41 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:57.640 as consistently as possible at my best level, and you know, 42 00:01:57.719 --> 00:02:01.120 hope that that translates into good outcomes, deep runs, final tables, 43 00:02:01.200 --> 00:02:05.959 ultimately bracelets. I did actually really had to think at 44 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:08.439 the beginning of the summer. You know, I just come 45 00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:12.120 from competing a triton. I came second there. I realized, oh, 46 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:13.599 I kind of really want to win a tritent title, 47 00:02:13.639 --> 00:02:15.560 and I'm like, do I want this as badly as 48 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:18.319 I did last year? And the answer is yes. And 49 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:21.879 you know, it's always a tricky balance between how much 50 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:24.280 do you want to attach yourself to outcomes or just 51 00:02:24.360 --> 00:02:26.400 things that you can control and sort of I try 52 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:28.960 to focus more on the latter, but you know, you 53 00:02:29.000 --> 00:02:31.240 want to have the outcomes ultimately correlate with that. But 54 00:02:31.280 --> 00:02:32.240 you got to give it some time. 55 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:34.520 With the long career in business that you've had and 56 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:38.800 poker coming in while you were already having success in 57 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:41.800 that world, what was it about poker that made you 58 00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:43.879 motivate it to also reach the top? 59 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:47.639 I mean the answer is, given the amount of sort 60 00:02:47.639 --> 00:02:50.360 of effort and time that I devoted to it, it's 61 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:52.319 not just one thing. I Mean, what I like about 62 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.800 poker is that it touches on so many things that 63 00:02:55.840 --> 00:03:00.919 I that I enjoy. You know, it's constant problems and 64 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:04.120 puzzles that you need to sort of solve. It's social 65 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:08.120 and that you have this kind of frontal competition against 66 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:11.719 people that are sitting at you table, some of whom 67 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:14.240 you might be very good friends with, some of them 68 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:17.039 you kind of like. Some of them have met before. 69 00:03:17.479 --> 00:03:20.560 I also think that you know, in business, it's a 70 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:23.120 fairly homogeneous group of people. Sort of a lot of 71 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:28.599 them have gone through similar you know, university experience, work experiences. 72 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:31.719 They're all sort of you know, certain types of people, 73 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:34.280 I would say, which is amazing. But I think in 74 00:03:34.360 --> 00:03:37.759 poker you have the chance to get exposed to more 75 00:03:38.280 --> 00:03:41.639 heterogeneous kind of group of people. It can be you know, 76 00:03:41.759 --> 00:03:44.400 age from really young to really old, it can be 77 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:48.479 from you very very different socio economic backgrounds. It's very international, 78 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:50.560 and so that I kind of enjoy as well. And 79 00:03:50.800 --> 00:03:54.039 then maybe most importantly kind of I think what a 80 00:03:54.039 --> 00:03:55.680 lot of people just appreciate. You know, I'm in my 81 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.879 late forties now, I played sports when I was young. 82 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.639 You know, that train is sort of left station. If 83 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:03.879 I could go back in life, I maybe would try 84 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:05.719 to see if I had a shot to become a 85 00:04:05.719 --> 00:04:10.560 professional athlete. But it allows me to compete at something 86 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:15.039 at an elite level. And it's ultimately probably as much 87 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:18.240 as you're competing against other people, you're really competing against yourself, 88 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.600 and it's the battle against yourself and your own weaknesses 89 00:04:21.600 --> 00:04:24.560 and fallacies and how to learn to overcome those. And 90 00:04:24.639 --> 00:04:26.720 I just think it's very gratifying. 91 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:30.360 When you make decisions in the private equity world where 92 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:32.920 you've worked your way up to become a partner, you've 93 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:35.600 since decided that you know, you had to step away 94 00:04:35.600 --> 00:04:38.600 from that. We can get into that also, But when 95 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:43.439 you're in that highly competitive world making decisions that you 96 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:46.879 know can have an effect on revenue and we're talking 97 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:51.399 probably six seven eight figures when things go well or 98 00:04:51.399 --> 00:04:54.639 when things go bad in either direction, how does that 99 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:59.800 compare to this decision making in poker where there's still 100 00:05:00.519 --> 00:05:02.839 a part of it that is unknown. When you invest 101 00:05:02.879 --> 00:05:06.199 as a private equity firm in a new company, yes, 102 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:08.279 you might believe that this is the right decision, but 103 00:05:08.360 --> 00:05:10.959 the fact that the outcome is still unknown has some 104 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:13.519 similarities with poker. So how do you how do you 105 00:05:13.560 --> 00:05:15.639 how do you look at that parallel and how how 106 00:05:15.720 --> 00:05:17.600 are there perhaps still big differences? 107 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.000 Yeah, yeah, I would say that there are a lot 108 00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:24.480 of similarities between investing in poker, and there are some 109 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:28.600 pretty big differences. I would say the similarities are that 110 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:34.000 you do sort of have a deluge of information and 111 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:39.439 you kind of got to decide what is relevant, and 112 00:05:39.480 --> 00:05:42.040 there is also a lot of incomplete information. So you 113 00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:45.720 never really know for sure what the decision that you made. 114 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:48.240 I mean, there's some trivial decisions that are obvious, which 115 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:50.839 is you'll have a poker as well, But most of 116 00:05:50.839 --> 00:05:55.279 the important decisions are actually quite difficult and against the 117 00:05:55.319 --> 00:05:59.920 backdrop of uncertainty and incomplete information, and you sort of 118 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:04.519 triangulate to make the best decision, knowing that decisions and 119 00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:06.720 outcomes also aren't always the same. You can make a 120 00:06:06.759 --> 00:06:09.199 good decision has a bad outcome, and vice and versa, 121 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:11.800 and so you need to have the humility to recognize that. 122 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:14.360 So sometimes like we might have passed on a deal 123 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:16.399 which we thought for the right decisions at the time, 124 00:06:16.439 --> 00:06:18.279 and it turns out to be you know, a home 125 00:06:18.360 --> 00:06:21.360 run doesn't necessarily mean we made right the wrong decision, 126 00:06:21.839 --> 00:06:23.519 and vice and versa. Sometimes you might have bought a 127 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:25.560 business and it turns out to being good investment. But 128 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:27.839 maybe actually we made the right decision. We just got 129 00:06:27.879 --> 00:06:30.480 lucky in some ways. But it's always sort of against 130 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.759 the scenario or a range of outcomes that you're aware of, 131 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:36.199 and you do a lot of work to understand, you know, 132 00:06:36.959 --> 00:06:39.240 how how might does look like and how why does 133 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:41.519 the range of outcomes and whatnot. And that's kind of 134 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:43.639 similar to just thinking about you up against the range 135 00:06:43.639 --> 00:06:46.279 of hands and pokers, So that's actually quite similar. I 136 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:49.279 think what's different is, you know, poker is a very 137 00:06:49.279 --> 00:06:51.600 solitary sport. In the end, it's you alone who's making 138 00:06:51.680 --> 00:06:56.399 the decision private equity. As a team sport, you have small, 139 00:06:56.439 --> 00:06:59.639 small teams that make decisions. Before you make an investment decision, 140 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:02.319 you just us it with a lot of other partners, 141 00:07:02.920 --> 00:07:07.360 and so you know, there is less attribution to you know, 142 00:07:07.360 --> 00:07:09.879 what exactly you thought or did at the time because 143 00:07:09.879 --> 00:07:11.800 it's made as a small team. But I would say 144 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:16.000 the biggest difference is that you know, in poker, over 145 00:07:16.040 --> 00:07:18.800 and over again, you make decisions of consequence, you know, 146 00:07:18.879 --> 00:07:22.600 for chips money that are irreversible, and you do that 147 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:25.160 over and over again, sometimes at lower stakes, but higher stakes. 148 00:07:25.160 --> 00:07:27.959 So you're sort of presented with this constant decision making 149 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:33.480 that you really can can take back. And that creates 150 00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:36.439 a certain set of requirements that you really got to 151 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:38.800 be sharpened the moment, which is like a lot of 152 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:41.079 the way a lot of professional sports works. You know, 153 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:43.319 when Akara shows up on a tennis court, you know 154 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:45.240 he's got to hit that ball. The point he's lost 155 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:47.879 is lost forever. He's got to be you're going to 156 00:07:47.959 --> 00:07:50.199 be able to perform in that window when he's able 157 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:52.160 to showing up on a court until the game is over. 158 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:56.560 And private equity, when you make very very significant kind 159 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:59.439 of let's say, investment decisions or even do you hire 160 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:03.839 someone or not, or do you raise your prices iterative like, 161 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:08.040 you usually do a lot of analysis and teams and 162 00:08:08.040 --> 00:08:10.040 then there's questions that come up and you go back 163 00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:13.000 and forth and they do some more analysis, and before 164 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:15.720 you make the decisions, you might have had seven eight 165 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:18.160 meetings over a couple of days, weeks or even months. 166 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:20.920 And even when you make the decisions, sometimes you could 167 00:08:20.959 --> 00:08:23.360 technically go back and say, oh, I changed my mind, 168 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:28.800 you know, and I reverse it. So that is just 169 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:32.360 a very different kind of backdrop in terms of how 170 00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:35.159 you end up making decisions, which I think is actually 171 00:08:35.960 --> 00:08:39.639 a really fundamental difference in terms of their stings. Therefore 172 00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:42.320 that I needed to get good at when it comes 173 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:44.919 to poker that were sort of quasi irrelevant in the 174 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:45.519 business world. 175 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:48.120 Way you paint this picture and how you see the 176 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.639 parallels and how you see the differences, was that something 177 00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:54.039 you noticed right away the first time you tried poker, 178 00:08:54.279 --> 00:08:55.840 was that something that drew you to the game. 179 00:08:56.440 --> 00:08:58.720 I think what drew me to the game was, you know, 180 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:02.879 some combination of just I really just like problem solving, 181 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:06.799 and you know, I had a new competitive outlet. I 182 00:09:06.840 --> 00:09:08.840 also you know, for me, it was I watched rounders. 183 00:09:08.840 --> 00:09:12.000 Like we all have sort of our own you know, 184 00:09:12.759 --> 00:09:16.039 framework or value system of things that we attribute value to. 185 00:09:16.159 --> 00:09:18.480 So for me, it was like, this was this world 186 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:20.440 that I just thought was everyone has played poker as 187 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:23.360 a child that I just thought was fascinating. That's what 188 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:26.960 got me. For other people might have been online poker 189 00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:30.759 or moneymaker. And then it's so funny in poker where 190 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:34.120 you know, I now play with my sort of in 191 00:09:34.159 --> 00:09:37.600 a way set of childhood heroes, and it's it's almost 192 00:09:37.840 --> 00:09:40.600 you know, I was just playing two days ago with Ivy. 193 00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:43.200 You know, you're friendly with them, you compete with them, 194 00:09:43.320 --> 00:09:45.080 some of them you realize you're better than them, and 195 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:48.360 it's kind of crazy. Like usually when you watch the sport, 196 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:50.720 you never think that you could play with like an 197 00:09:50.759 --> 00:09:53.200 elite athlete and let alone be at that level, And 198 00:09:53.240 --> 00:09:55.559 poker offers you that that chance and some of it 199 00:09:55.639 --> 00:10:00.120 is the just the intrinsics of the game that some 200 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:01.840 of it is just that age kind of is a 201 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.679 little bit irrelevant. And now you have tools where you 202 00:10:04.679 --> 00:10:06.960 can get better very very quickly if you devote yourself 203 00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:10.320 to it. And so it's that combination of factors that 204 00:10:10.559 --> 00:10:13.679 over time you sort of realize, hey, wait a minute, like, actually, 205 00:10:14.279 --> 00:10:16.480 if I really care about being really good at this day, 206 00:10:16.559 --> 00:10:18.960 there actually is a path. And it's not that you 207 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:20.720 wish you'd done this when you were seven year old. 208 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:25.120 But then what I find fun from your sort of 209 00:10:25.159 --> 00:10:27.320 career arc, if I can put it that way in poker, 210 00:10:27.759 --> 00:10:31.919 is that you took sort of a route that forced 211 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:35.679 you to really work on your game even more because 212 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:38.759 you were trying to be competitive at high stakes, no 213 00:10:38.840 --> 00:10:41.159 limit hold them. And then especially in the tournament scene, 214 00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:42.639 you know lots of cases on the EPT and you 215 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:44.639 play some of the higher stakes there. And I think 216 00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:48.120 it's safe to say that you wanted to jump into 217 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:52.279 the type of game that probably had the most competition. 218 00:10:52.759 --> 00:10:54.840 Was that an active thought? Was that just where you 219 00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:58.120 saw the action, was that something that you were specifically 220 00:10:58.240 --> 00:10:58.600 drawn to? 221 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:03.480 Yeah, no observation, I have a very sort of elitist 222 00:11:03.799 --> 00:11:07.000 kind of mindset or expectation of myself when when I 223 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:10.399 when I try to do something, I aspire to be 224 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:15.080 the best. And the path that I chose, which everyone 225 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.879 goes about a different way, is that like, if you 226 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:19.840 want to be the best, you compete at the highest 227 00:11:19.919 --> 00:11:22.679 level that is accessible to you that doesn't sort of 228 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.679 create financial ruin. Where so, like I played in games 229 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:30.159 where I was probably a dog, and my goal was 230 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:32.960 to say can I actually beat that game or sort 231 00:11:32.960 --> 00:11:36.480 of be break even and through that process actually learning, 232 00:11:36.600 --> 00:11:39.600 learn and get better. You know, I had the financial 233 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:42.279 flexibility that I could play a game if I was wrong, 234 00:11:42.320 --> 00:11:44.720 it wouldn't be sort of you know, financial ruin for me. 235 00:11:45.399 --> 00:11:49.679 But I put myself over and over situations where you know, 236 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:51.440 I was probably dog and I had to sort of 237 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:55.399 somehow find a way to survive, and through that, you know, 238 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:59.120 I got you know better. That was kind of my 239 00:11:59.120 --> 00:12:02.200 my my pro which has sort of worked out for me. 240 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:04.000 But you know, as I said, everyone goes about it 241 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:04.559 in a different way. 242 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:08.080 So then when I look at that early tournament resume, 243 00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:10.279 which is the best record we have in poker, because 244 00:12:10.279 --> 00:12:12.159 you know, we don't have a cash game handed mob, 245 00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.840 so we can you know, pivot into that at some 246 00:12:14.879 --> 00:12:18.240 point as well. But if I just pick out random results, 247 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:21.200 you know, it's guys like Ola Chmion, most of Neat 248 00:12:21.360 --> 00:12:23.600 that you were battling with in sort of the earliest 249 00:12:23.639 --> 00:12:26.639 Thomas Mulocker, guys that were all sort of crushers at 250 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:30.440 that stake. Was there a person or were there people 251 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:33.799 that you were influenced by or that helped you along 252 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.200 that journey to improve yourself, or maybe there was a 253 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:41.080 specific instance where you realized, if I keep going to 254 00:12:41.159 --> 00:12:43.600 do this, I need to make X, Y and Z 255 00:12:44.000 --> 00:12:47.120 changes because these guys do things that I am not 256 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:48.200 fully grasping yet. 257 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:51.960 Yeah. What's always been an edge of mine in any 258 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:56.600 kind of you know sense, has been that like when 259 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:02.440 I sit at the table, I think I am about 260 00:13:02.440 --> 00:13:05.480 as dollon as anyone at the table. I'm mentally prepared 261 00:13:05.559 --> 00:13:10.360 when I when I sit down, and like the I 262 00:13:10.360 --> 00:13:13.759 think that the discipline and the focus that you learn 263 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:17.000 kind of in private equity when you have to work 264 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:20.840 like several hundred hours a week you deal with really 265 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:23.320 really the problems at at very very high stakes with 266 00:13:23.360 --> 00:13:27.120 difficult personalities. Like that's a toolkit that you can activate 267 00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:30.080 in poker, and that's been that's been a huge source 268 00:13:30.120 --> 00:13:34.039 of value for me that many other people, I would say, 269 00:13:34.840 --> 00:13:37.720 fail to appreciate. I would say, So, the other asset 270 00:13:37.799 --> 00:13:39.799 you have is I think for a long time in 271 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:42.960 my career, maybe even still today, I'm underestimated. And I 272 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:45.879 think that's a gift in poker. Whenever you're underestimated, it's 273 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:48.200 it's always an advantage if you if you know how 274 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.720 to sort of use it. So that's always been been 275 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:53.519 there for me. There was a second part. Part was 276 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.879 when I started playing poker at higher stakes, when I 277 00:13:56.919 --> 00:14:01.320 started working with Elliott Rowe, where I had sort of 278 00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:03.799 a couple of aha moments in terms of this whole 279 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:07.440 difference between business and poker, in terms of this sort 280 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.639 of like athletes based performance on demand mindset, sort of 281 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:12.759 what do I need to do to be at my 282 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:18.200 best when I show up? And that includes you know, sleep, exercise, nutrition, 283 00:14:19.200 --> 00:14:22.039 you know, working your mindset and meditation that when I 284 00:14:22.240 --> 00:14:24.960 when I show up, I'm even better, able, better able 285 00:14:24.960 --> 00:14:27.799 to perform when those big decisions come up. And I 286 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:30.000 would say, and then the third was learning how to 287 00:14:30.080 --> 00:14:35.679 actually get better through studying. And I would say there's 288 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.960 a common variety of people that you know, I talked 289 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:43.000 to that I try to copy from. But if I 290 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:45.639 name one, like, I know how some of the elite 291 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:49.440 guys are sort of studying, and I actually think that 292 00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:54.360 very few have the level of I would say, sort 293 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:58.639 of discipline and consistency that I demand of myself. And 294 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.480 so that's been an AHA moment when I realized that 295 00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:05.600 I'm probably studying as much as anyone, you know, and 296 00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.159 how I study is as an intense form of study 297 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.840 that allows me to get better. And that's sort of 298 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.399 been maybe sort of the third dimension that I didn't 299 00:15:14.440 --> 00:15:19.440 really have a chance to sort of use before I 300 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:21.559 really had had sort of the time, meaning before I 301 00:15:21.559 --> 00:15:22.519 sort of quit my job. 302 00:15:25.039 --> 00:15:27.960 Poker is the zero sum game, and it can be 303 00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:31.919 very predatory, you know, in the current climate. When you 304 00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:34.399 look at cash games, for example, it's all about who 305 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:36.639 gets the invite who doesn't get the invite, and games 306 00:15:36.679 --> 00:15:39.919 are private or semi private. But the tournaments is just 307 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:41.799 you know, show up, buy in, and you can just play. 308 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:44.639 So in a way, it's like the equalizer. Everybody can 309 00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:48.960 show up, everybody can play at the same time. When 310 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:51.039 you play tournaments at a high stake. There needs to 311 00:15:51.080 --> 00:15:56.759 be more personal awareness if you care about performance, as 312 00:15:56.799 --> 00:15:58.559 to how do I evaluate my play, how do I 313 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:03.440 evaluate my opponent? And given the small sample size that 314 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:07.159 you deal with, how am I able to discern that 315 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:09.399 the path that I'm on or things that I'm doing 316 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.320 are actually progressing me to where I want to be? 317 00:16:12.480 --> 00:16:13.519 How did you approach that? 318 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:17.000 Yeah, look, you don't really know. I mean, I would 319 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.600 say you can even with a bigger sample set. There's 320 00:16:21.639 --> 00:16:25.039 still ambiguity in terms of how much people are really winning, 321 00:16:25.120 --> 00:16:27.399 how good there really are. And I think that's the 322 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:30.639 beauty of the game and that there's so much ambiguity 323 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:32.679 that you'll never really know. I mean, we can all 324 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:36.720 sort of there's a list of people depending on the 325 00:16:36.759 --> 00:16:38.960 type of competition that you mentioned, mixed games and no 326 00:16:39.039 --> 00:16:41.480 limit PLO, and it will come up, you know, and 327 00:16:41.519 --> 00:16:43.879 you would think that because they come up over and 328 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:46.440 over again, it's more likely that they're winning. But there's 329 00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:49.159 a lot of ambiguity. There's a lot of ambiguity as 330 00:16:49.159 --> 00:16:51.559 to you know, if I'm playing a Triton, am I 331 00:16:51.600 --> 00:16:55.799 actually winning or not? Like, look, I don't even know 332 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.000 if it matters, Like if I show up at a 333 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:03.759 tournament that I play. Let's say I'm playing a hunter KPLO. 334 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:11.079 Whether I'm slightly ev positive slightly ev negative depends, first 335 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:14.960 of all, is unknown. Second, it depends on factors that 336 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.000 are beyond my control. You know, do a couple of 337 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.160 bad players or really good players show up or not 338 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:24.079 so obviously and so, but I kind of think it's 339 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:28.200 besides the point. What matters to me is that, like, 340 00:17:28.359 --> 00:17:31.799 I know what it takes to become elite at any 341 00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:35.440 kind of form of poker, and I will focus on 342 00:17:35.480 --> 00:17:37.480 the things that I can control to keep kind of 343 00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:40.200 going up that hill and get like a little bit 344 00:17:40.200 --> 00:17:43.200 better every time. Like when I study, like I feel 345 00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:44.839 at the end of the day I've learned something I 346 00:17:44.839 --> 00:17:47.240 didn't know before, or I have a conversation with an 347 00:17:47.279 --> 00:17:50.599 elite player about mindset or you know, you name it, 348 00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:52.920 like any ingredient to success that I feel I can 349 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:55.000 get a little bit better at. That's what matters to me, 350 00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:59.119 and the rest will be, you know, sort of decided 351 00:17:59.240 --> 00:18:01.319 over over time, and I don't spend too much time 352 00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:04.960 worrying about it. I'm probably I think a lot of 353 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:08.839 players that I know are maybe ever so slightly delusional 354 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:13.359 or naive about the true level of skill. And I 355 00:18:13.359 --> 00:18:15.599 think that's okay because it gives you that level of 356 00:18:15.599 --> 00:18:18.759 confidence that you need to execute when it matters. And 357 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:21.319 are you really delusional if you think you're delusional? I 358 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:25.160 don't actually know, but like I do think that's that's 359 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.279 not an atypical kind of ingredient when you're competing, that 360 00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:30.720 you think I can actually really win this and I'm 361 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:31.839 one of the best players. 362 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:35.559 Does it matter to you how the people that you 363 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:38.279 see as elite view you as a player. 364 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:43.440 I would say definitely yes, but I'm not sure if 365 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.799 the answer it goes to both ways. Of course, you 366 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:49.200 enjoyed the respect of your peers. I have a player 367 00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:52.440 who I put in my top two top three who 368 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:56.720 wanted to draft me for the fantasy draft, and he said, 369 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:00.319 you know, this guy is much better in most thing 370 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:01.880 and he tries really hard. I think he's really good, 371 00:19:01.880 --> 00:19:04.079 he's improve the blah blah blah. Of course that means 372 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:06.039 something to me, right as it would in any kind 373 00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:09.640 of sport and endeavor. But then I'm also aware that 374 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.839 there's other people that underestimate me, and I I know 375 00:19:13.920 --> 00:19:15.480 that benefits me a lot, and I can think of 376 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:19.440 very specific hands where I think I know what they 377 00:19:19.440 --> 00:19:21.799 think about my game, and you know, I can use 378 00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:23.880 that to my advantage. So it sort of goes both 379 00:19:24.000 --> 00:19:26.839 both ways. I think you like the respect of your peers, 380 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:29.440 but you know a lot of people are just going 381 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:32.680 to always classify me as sort of the rich businessman 382 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.519 who tries hard, and that's that's that's a good thing. 383 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:40.279 So then the rich businessman who tries hard was that 384 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:43.960 tough to sell at home and to friends and family 385 00:19:44.000 --> 00:19:48.160 outside at poker, Because the pivot from what people see 386 00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:52.400 as perhaps one of the more esteemed careers working for 387 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.039 a major firm to then be you know, for lack 388 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.000 of a better term, slumming it out at the rio 389 00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:01.319 is kind of a big pivot, like how is that 390 00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:02.480 being received? 391 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:05.599 You know, it goes in phases. I think I didn't 392 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:09.480 quit my job to play poker. Sure, I quit my 393 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:15.000 job primarily to spend more time with my family. You know, 394 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:17.759 I was working maybe on average eighty hours a week. 395 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:20.440 Most importantly, I was traveling three four days a week. 396 00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.519 So at some point I felt like I just wasn't 397 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:28.680 around when life happened for my family, and I didn't 398 00:20:28.680 --> 00:20:31.559 think there was a way to perform the job at 399 00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:34.200 the level that I that I think it deserved and 400 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:38.680 required if I had traveled less. And so I use 401 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.720