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Speaker 1: Usually when you watch the sport, you never think that

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you could play with like an elite athlete and let

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alone be at that level, and poker offers you that chance.

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Speaker 2: Hey, this is remco. Thanks for clicking on a video.

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This is my brand new podcast called Face the Ace,

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in which I talked to the most interesting people in

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poker and go a little deeper into the topics you

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most care about.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to a new episode of Face Das. My name

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is Rem Krienkama, joined today by Philip Sternheimer, one of

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my favorites to root for a very compelling story, will

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dive very deep into it. I don't think you need

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an introduction anymore, but I'll just give the brief rundown

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for those who've been living under red rock. We got

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a bracelet winner in our midst someone with a long

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career in private equity, a father, two daughters, and a dog.

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Many got to mention the dog and a drive that,

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in my opinion, is hard to find for someone with

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that level of success in the business world that I

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don't also try to translate that into the poker table.

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So first off, welcome to the show. Second off, how's

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the summer been so far.

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Speaker 1: Well, first of all, thank you excited to be here?

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Am I the as are you the ace?

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Speaker 2: At the end of the show, we'll decide, well, we'll

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do the big reveal.

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Speaker 1: Summer is going below expectations, I would say, but you know,

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still have a bunch of events left, and you know,

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I'm I'm at peace if it's not the summer that

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I hoped it would be. And I have a lot

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of events left where I can compete, so every event

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can be the next big one.

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Speaker 2: So I know that the emotions that you felt when

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you won your bracelet, that is something that winning a second, third,

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or fourth might never match again. But is that still

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the drive to win more bracelets or are you just

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here to make money, have fun, test yourself, Like, what's

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the motivation?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say the main motivation is to play

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as consistently as possible at my best level, and you know,

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hope that that translates into good outcomes, deep runs, final tables,

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ultimately bracelets. I did actually really had to think at

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the beginning of the summer. You know, I just come

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from competing a triton. I came second there. I realized, oh,

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I kind of really want to win a tritent title,

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and I'm like, do I want this as badly as

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I did last year? And the answer is yes. And

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you know, it's always a tricky balance between how much

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do you want to attach yourself to outcomes or just

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things that you can control and sort of I try

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to focus more on the latter, but you know, you

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want to have the outcomes ultimately correlate with that. But

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you got to give it some time.

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Speaker 2: With the long career in business that you've had and

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poker coming in while you were already having success in

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that world, what was it about poker that made you

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motivate it to also reach the top?

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Speaker 1: I mean the answer is, given the amount of sort

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of effort and time that I devoted to it, it's

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not just one thing. I Mean, what I like about

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poker is that it touches on so many things that

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I that I enjoy. You know, it's constant problems and

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puzzles that you need to sort of solve. It's social

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and that you have this kind of frontal competition against

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people that are sitting at you table, some of whom

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you might be very good friends with, some of them

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you kind of like. Some of them have met before.

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I also think that you know, in business, it's a

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fairly homogeneous group of people. Sort of a lot of

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them have gone through similar you know, university experience, work experiences.

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They're all sort of you know, certain types of people,

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I would say, which is amazing. But I think in

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poker you have the chance to get exposed to more

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heterogeneous kind of group of people. It can be you know,

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age from really young to really old, it can be

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from you very very different socio economic backgrounds. It's very international,

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and so that I kind of enjoy as well. And

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then maybe most importantly kind of I think what a

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lot of people just appreciate. You know, I'm in my

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late forties now, I played sports when I was young.

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You know, that train is sort of left station. If

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I could go back in life, I maybe would try

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to see if I had a shot to become a

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professional athlete. But it allows me to compete at something

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at an elite level. And it's ultimately probably as much

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as you're competing against other people, you're really competing against yourself,

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and it's the battle against yourself and your own weaknesses

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and fallacies and how to learn to overcome those. And

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I just think it's very gratifying.

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Speaker 2: When you make decisions in the private equity world where

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you've worked your way up to become a partner, you've

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since decided that you know, you had to step away

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from that. We can get into that also, But when

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you're in that highly competitive world making decisions that you

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know can have an effect on revenue and we're talking

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probably six seven eight figures when things go well or

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when things go bad in either direction, how does that

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compare to this decision making in poker where there's still

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a part of it that is unknown. When you invest

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as a private equity firm in a new company, yes,

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you might believe that this is the right decision, but

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the fact that the outcome is still unknown has some

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similarities with poker. So how do you how do you

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how do you look at that parallel and how how

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are there perhaps still big differences?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I would say that there are a lot

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of similarities between investing in poker, and there are some

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pretty big differences. I would say the similarities are that

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you do sort of have a deluge of information and

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you kind of got to decide what is relevant, and

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there is also a lot of incomplete information. So you

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never really know for sure what the decision that you made.

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I mean, there's some trivial decisions that are obvious, which

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is you'll have a poker as well, But most of

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the important decisions are actually quite difficult and against the

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backdrop of uncertainty and incomplete information, and you sort of

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triangulate to make the best decision, knowing that decisions and

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outcomes also aren't always the same. You can make a

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good decision has a bad outcome, and vice and versa,

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and so you need to have the humility to recognize that.

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So sometimes like we might have passed on a deal

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which we thought for the right decisions at the time,

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and it turns out to be you know, a home

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run doesn't necessarily mean we made right the wrong decision,

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and vice and versa. Sometimes you might have bought a

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business and it turns out to being good investment. But

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maybe actually we made the right decision. We just got

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lucky in some ways. But it's always sort of against

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the scenario or a range of outcomes that you're aware of,

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and you do a lot of work to understand, you know,

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how how might does look like and how why does

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the range of outcomes and whatnot. And that's kind of

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similar to just thinking about you up against the range

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of hands and pokers, So that's actually quite similar. I

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think what's different is, you know, poker is a very

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solitary sport. In the end, it's you alone who's making

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the decision private equity. As a team sport, you have small,

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small teams that make decisions. Before you make an investment decision,

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you just us it with a lot of other partners,

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and so you know, there is less attribution to you know,

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what exactly you thought or did at the time because

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it's made as a small team. But I would say

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the biggest difference is that you know, in poker, over

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and over again, you make decisions of consequence, you know,

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for chips money that are irreversible, and you do that

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over and over again, sometimes at lower stakes, but higher stakes.

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So you're sort of presented with this constant decision making

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that you really can can take back. And that creates

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a certain set of requirements that you really got to

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be sharpened the moment, which is like a lot of

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the way a lot of professional sports works. You know,

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when Akara shows up on a tennis court, you know

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he's got to hit that ball. The point he's lost

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is lost forever. He's got to be you're going to

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be able to perform in that window when he's able

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to showing up on a court until the game is over.

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And private equity, when you make very very significant kind

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of let's say, investment decisions or even do you hire

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someone or not, or do you raise your prices iterative like,

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you usually do a lot of analysis and teams and

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then there's questions that come up and you go back

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and forth and they do some more analysis, and before

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you make the decisions, you might have had seven eight

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meetings over a couple of days, weeks or even months.

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And even when you make the decisions, sometimes you could

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technically go back and say, oh, I changed my mind,

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you know, and I reverse it. So that is just

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a very different kind of backdrop in terms of how

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you end up making decisions, which I think is actually

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a really fundamental difference in terms of their stings. Therefore

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that I needed to get good at when it comes

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to poker that were sort of quasi irrelevant in the

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business world.

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Speaker 2: Way you paint this picture and how you see the

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parallels and how you see the differences, was that something

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you noticed right away the first time you tried poker,

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was that something that drew you to the game.

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Speaker 1: I think what drew me to the game was, you know,

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some combination of just I really just like problem solving,

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and you know, I had a new competitive outlet. I

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also you know, for me, it was I watched rounders.

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Like we all have sort of our own you know,

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framework or value system of things that we attribute value to.

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So for me, it was like, this was this world

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that I just thought was everyone has played poker as

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a child that I just thought was fascinating. That's what

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got me. For other people might have been online poker

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or moneymaker. And then it's so funny in poker where

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you know, I now play with my sort of in

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a way set of childhood heroes, and it's it's almost

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you know, I was just playing two days ago with Ivy.

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You know, you're friendly with them, you compete with them,

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some of them you realize you're better than them, and

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it's kind of crazy. Like usually when you watch the sport,

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you never think that you could play with like an

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elite athlete and let alone be at that level, And

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poker offers you that that chance and some of it

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is the just the intrinsics of the game that some

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of it is just that age kind of is a

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little bit irrelevant. And now you have tools where you

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can get better very very quickly if you devote yourself

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to it. And so it's that combination of factors that

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over time you sort of realize, hey, wait a minute, like, actually,

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if I really care about being really good at this day,

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there actually is a path. And it's not that you

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wish you'd done this when you were seven year old.

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Speaker 2: But then what I find fun from your sort of

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career arc, if I can put it that way in poker,

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is that you took sort of a route that forced

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you to really work on your game even more because

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you were trying to be competitive at high stakes, no

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limit hold them. And then especially in the tournament scene,

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you know lots of cases on the EPT and you

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play some of the higher stakes there. And I think

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it's safe to say that you wanted to jump into

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the type of game that probably had the most competition.

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Was that an active thought? Was that just where you

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saw the action, was that something that you were specifically

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drawn to?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no observation, I have a very sort of elitist

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kind of mindset or expectation of myself when when I

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when I try to do something, I aspire to be

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the best. And the path that I chose, which everyone

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goes about a different way, is that like, if you

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want to be the best, you compete at the highest

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level that is accessible to you that doesn't sort of

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create financial ruin. Where so, like I played in games

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where I was probably a dog, and my goal was

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to say can I actually beat that game or sort

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of be break even and through that process actually learning,

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learn and get better. You know, I had the financial

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flexibility that I could play a game if I was wrong,

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it wouldn't be sort of you know, financial ruin for me.

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But I put myself over and over situations where you know,

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I was probably dog and I had to sort of

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somehow find a way to survive, and through that, you know,

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I got you know better. That was kind of my

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my my pro which has sort of worked out for me.

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But you know, as I said, everyone goes about it

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in a different way.

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Speaker 2: So then when I look at that early tournament resume,

243
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which is the best record we have in poker, because

244
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you know, we don't have a cash game handed mob,

245
00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:14,840
so we can you know, pivot into that at some

246
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point as well. But if I just pick out random results,

247
00:12:18,279 --> 00:12:21,200
you know, it's guys like Ola Chmion, most of Neat

248
00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,600
that you were battling with in sort of the earliest

249
00:12:23,639 --> 00:12:26,639
Thomas Mulocker, guys that were all sort of crushers at

250
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,440
that stake. Was there a person or were there people

251
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that you were influenced by or that helped you along

252
00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,200
that journey to improve yourself, or maybe there was a

253
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specific instance where you realized, if I keep going to

254
00:12:41,159 --> 00:12:43,600
do this, I need to make X, Y and Z

255
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changes because these guys do things that I am not

256
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fully grasping yet.

257
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Speaker 1: Yeah. What's always been an edge of mine in any

258
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kind of you know sense, has been that like when

259
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I sit at the table, I think I am about

260
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as dollon as anyone at the table. I'm mentally prepared

261
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when I when I sit down, and like the I

262
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think that the discipline and the focus that you learn

263
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,000
kind of in private equity when you have to work

264
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like several hundred hours a week you deal with really

265
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really the problems at at very very high stakes with

266
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,120
difficult personalities. Like that's a toolkit that you can activate

267
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,080
in poker, and that's been that's been a huge source

268
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of value for me that many other people, I would say,

269
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fail to appreciate. I would say, So, the other asset

270
00:13:37,799 --> 00:13:39,799
you have is I think for a long time in

271
00:13:39,799 --> 00:13:42,960
my career, maybe even still today, I'm underestimated. And I

272
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,879
think that's a gift in poker. Whenever you're underestimated, it's

273
00:13:45,879 --> 00:13:48,200
it's always an advantage if you if you know how

274
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to sort of use it. So that's always been been

275
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there for me. There was a second part. Part was

276
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,879
when I started playing poker at higher stakes, when I

277
00:13:56,919 --> 00:14:01,320
started working with Elliott Rowe, where I had sort of

278
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,799
a couple of aha moments in terms of this whole

279
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,440
difference between business and poker, in terms of this sort

280
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,639
of like athletes based performance on demand mindset, sort of

281
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what do I need to do to be at my

282
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best when I show up? And that includes you know, sleep, exercise, nutrition,

283
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,039
you know, working your mindset and meditation that when I

284
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,960
when I show up, I'm even better, able, better able

285
00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,799
to perform when those big decisions come up. And I

286
00:14:27,799 --> 00:14:30,000
would say, and then the third was learning how to

287
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:35,679
actually get better through studying. And I would say there's

288
00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:38,960
a common variety of people that you know, I talked

289
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:43,000
to that I try to copy from. But if I

290
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,639
name one, like, I know how some of the elite

291
00:14:45,639 --> 00:14:49,440
guys are sort of studying, and I actually think that

292
00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:54,360
very few have the level of I would say, sort

293
00:14:54,399 --> 00:14:58,639
of discipline and consistency that I demand of myself. And

294
00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:01,480
so that's been an AHA moment when I realized that

295
00:15:02,279 --> 00:15:05,600
I'm probably studying as much as anyone, you know, and

296
00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,159
how I study is as an intense form of study

297
00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,840
that allows me to get better. And that's sort of

298
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,399
been maybe sort of the third dimension that I didn't

299
00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:19,440
really have a chance to sort of use before I

300
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,559
really had had sort of the time, meaning before I

301
00:15:21,559 --> 00:15:22,519
sort of quit my job.

302
00:15:25,039 --> 00:15:27,960
Speaker 2: Poker is the zero sum game, and it can be

303
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,919
very predatory, you know, in the current climate. When you

304
00:15:31,919 --> 00:15:34,399
look at cash games, for example, it's all about who

305
00:15:34,399 --> 00:15:36,639
gets the invite who doesn't get the invite, and games

306
00:15:36,679 --> 00:15:39,919
are private or semi private. But the tournaments is just

307
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:41,799
you know, show up, buy in, and you can just play.

308
00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,639
So in a way, it's like the equalizer. Everybody can

309
00:15:44,679 --> 00:15:48,960
show up, everybody can play at the same time. When

310
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,039
you play tournaments at a high stake. There needs to

311
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:56,759
be more personal awareness if you care about performance, as

312
00:15:56,799 --> 00:15:58,559
to how do I evaluate my play, how do I

313
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,440
evaluate my opponent? And given the small sample size that

314
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,159
you deal with, how am I able to discern that

315
00:16:07,679 --> 00:16:09,399
the path that I'm on or things that I'm doing

316
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,320
are actually progressing me to where I want to be?

317
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:13,519
How did you approach that?

318
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, you don't really know. I mean, I would

319
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:21,600
say you can even with a bigger sample set. There's

320
00:16:21,639 --> 00:16:25,039
still ambiguity in terms of how much people are really winning,

321
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,399
how good there really are. And I think that's the

322
00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:30,639
beauty of the game and that there's so much ambiguity

323
00:16:30,639 --> 00:16:32,679
that you'll never really know. I mean, we can all

324
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,720
sort of there's a list of people depending on the

325
00:16:36,759 --> 00:16:38,960
type of competition that you mentioned, mixed games and no

326
00:16:39,039 --> 00:16:41,480
limit PLO, and it will come up, you know, and

327
00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:43,879
you would think that because they come up over and

328
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,440
over again, it's more likely that they're winning. But there's

329
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,159
a lot of ambiguity. There's a lot of ambiguity as

330
00:16:49,159 --> 00:16:51,559
to you know, if I'm playing a Triton, am I

331
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,799
actually winning or not? Like, look, I don't even know

332
00:16:55,879 --> 00:16:59,000
if it matters, Like if I show up at a

333
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,759
tournament that I play. Let's say I'm playing a hunter KPLO.

334
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:11,079
Whether I'm slightly ev positive slightly ev negative depends, first

335
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,960
of all, is unknown. Second, it depends on factors that

336
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,000
are beyond my control. You know, do a couple of

337
00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:20,160
bad players or really good players show up or not

338
00:17:20,759 --> 00:17:24,079
so obviously and so, but I kind of think it's

339
00:17:24,519 --> 00:17:28,200
besides the point. What matters to me is that, like,

340
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,799
I know what it takes to become elite at any

341
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,440
kind of form of poker, and I will focus on

342
00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,480
the things that I can control to keep kind of

343
00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,200
going up that hill and get like a little bit

344
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,200
better every time. Like when I study, like I feel

345
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:44,839
at the end of the day I've learned something I

346
00:17:44,839 --> 00:17:47,240
didn't know before, or I have a conversation with an

347
00:17:47,279 --> 00:17:50,599
elite player about mindset or you know, you name it,

348
00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,920
like any ingredient to success that I feel I can

349
00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,000
get a little bit better at. That's what matters to me,

350
00:17:56,519 --> 00:17:59,119
and the rest will be, you know, sort of decided

351
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,319
over over time, and I don't spend too much time

352
00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:04,960
worrying about it. I'm probably I think a lot of

353
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,839
players that I know are maybe ever so slightly delusional

354
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,359
or naive about the true level of skill. And I

355
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,599
think that's okay because it gives you that level of

356
00:18:15,599 --> 00:18:18,759
confidence that you need to execute when it matters. And

357
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,319
are you really delusional if you think you're delusional? I

358
00:18:21,319 --> 00:18:25,160
don't actually know, but like I do think that's that's

359
00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,279
not an atypical kind of ingredient when you're competing, that

360
00:18:28,319 --> 00:18:30,720
you think I can actually really win this and I'm

361
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:31,839
one of the best players.

362
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,559
Speaker 2: Does it matter to you how the people that you

363
00:18:35,599 --> 00:18:38,279
see as elite view you as a player.

364
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,440
Speaker 1: I would say definitely yes, but I'm not sure if

365
00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,799
the answer it goes to both ways. Of course, you

366
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:49,200
enjoyed the respect of your peers. I have a player

367
00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:52,440
who I put in my top two top three who

368
00:18:53,559 --> 00:18:56,720
wanted to draft me for the fantasy draft, and he said,

369
00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:00,319
you know, this guy is much better in most thing

370
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,880
and he tries really hard. I think he's really good,

371
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,079
he's improve the blah blah blah. Of course that means

372
00:19:04,079 --> 00:19:06,039
something to me, right as it would in any kind

373
00:19:06,079 --> 00:19:09,640
of sport and endeavor. But then I'm also aware that

374
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,839
there's other people that underestimate me, and I I know

375
00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,480
that benefits me a lot, and I can think of

376
00:19:15,599 --> 00:19:19,440
very specific hands where I think I know what they

377
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,799
think about my game, and you know, I can use

378
00:19:21,799 --> 00:19:23,880
that to my advantage. So it sort of goes both

379
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,839
both ways. I think you like the respect of your peers,

380
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,440
but you know a lot of people are just going

381
00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,680
to always classify me as sort of the rich businessman

382
00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,519
who tries hard, and that's that's that's a good thing.

383
00:19:36,319 --> 00:19:40,279
Speaker 2: So then the rich businessman who tries hard was that

384
00:19:40,759 --> 00:19:43,960
tough to sell at home and to friends and family

385
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:48,160
outside at poker, Because the pivot from what people see

386
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,400
as perhaps one of the more esteemed careers working for

387
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,039
a major firm to then be you know, for lack

388
00:19:56,079 --> 00:19:58,000
of a better term, slumming it out at the rio

389
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,319
is kind of a big pivot, like how is that

390
00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:02,480
being received?

391
00:20:03,519 --> 00:20:05,599
Speaker 1: You know, it goes in phases. I think I didn't

392
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,480
quit my job to play poker. Sure, I quit my

393
00:20:09,599 --> 00:20:15,000
job primarily to spend more time with my family. You know,

394
00:20:15,079 --> 00:20:17,759
I was working maybe on average eighty hours a week.

395
00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:20,440
Most importantly, I was traveling three four days a week.

396
00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,519
So at some point I felt like I just wasn't

397
00:20:23,759 --> 00:20:28,680
around when life happened for my family, and I didn't

398
00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,559
think there was a way to perform the job at

399
00:20:31,559 --> 00:20:34,200
the level that I that I think it deserved and

400
00:20:34,279 --> 00:20:38,680
required if I had traveled less. And so I use

401
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,720
a somewhat morbid sort of regret minimization kind of framework,

402
00:20:42,799 --> 00:20:44,400
kind of once or twice a year when I think

403
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,559
about if I died tomorrow and I was in my deathbed,

404
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:52,680
like would I have regrets? And it just became like

405
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,359
overwhelming and clear for me at some point that like

406
00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,599
what am I doing? Like I'm missing how my how

407
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,119
my daughters are growing up. And it was reinforced that

408
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,799
you know, my older daughter, when she was you know, young,

409
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,880
like one, two three, I was traveling a ton. Then

410
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:13,519
we had COVID, Suddenly I was at home a lot.

411
00:21:13,559 --> 00:21:15,880
And then we had a second daughter, and then I

412
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,200
started traveling again after COVID, and it felt like deja vu.

413
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,839
It's like I'm doing the same thing over again. So

414
00:21:21,839 --> 00:21:25,119
I'm like stop. And then the second reason was that,

415
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,160
you know, I've been doing that for eighteen years. I'm

416
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,079
in my mid forties. Is this really all lying on

417
00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:31,920
my deathbed? Like all I've done with my sort of

418
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:35,880
professional career, is this one thing which has arguably been

419
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,680
a fantastic career in so many ways, but I also

420
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:44,119
have many other interests and interests, and so that was

421
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,079
kind of what made me decide, Okay, I'm going to

422
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,440
jump off that like train, you know, which took me

423
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,240
sort of like ten years to decide at the point,

424
00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:53,559
sometimes but definitely a while. I definitely had a lot

425
00:21:53,599 --> 00:21:56,279
of I think for more than ten years, I had

426
00:21:56,279 --> 00:21:58,240
thoughts about should I be quitting now or later? And

427
00:21:58,559 --> 00:22:01,319
I'm super happy with the timing that I chose for

428
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,480
variety of reasons, but I'd been thinking about it for

429
00:22:03,519 --> 00:22:05,960
a long time. Then I didn't pick up the phone,

430
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,160
I would say, for anything, for about, you know, almost

431
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,160
two years. So that was my sort of time to decompress.

432
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:13,960
I did play a lot of poker, but I would

433
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,880
say like I didn't really I studied a little bit,

434
00:22:17,079 --> 00:22:20,079
I took it very seriously, but I would say I

435
00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,079
sort of play poker as a way to decompress, finally

436
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,720
have the freedom to come here to play. And then

437
00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:28,240
I sort of said to myself, look, I probably should

438
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,720
be I'm not sure. I'm still not sure if I

439
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,880
can play poker, you know, in any series form and

440
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,160
have the mental space and time to do something else.

441
00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:39,319
So I sort of said, Okay, it's gonna be my

442
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,720
last World Series last year. We all know how to

443
00:22:41,759 --> 00:22:45,400
work out, but I'm going to actually now start start

444
00:22:45,599 --> 00:22:48,720
treating this like a job and study kind of like

445
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,599
five days a week across all the games, and you know,

446
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,319
sort of feel like, Okay, I'm going out treating this

447
00:22:56,759 --> 00:23:00,720
like very seriously. And then to my surprise, I would say,

448
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,799
you know, the results have obviously been great in terms

449
00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:06,599
of winning a bracelet and winning a lot of money

450
00:23:06,759 --> 00:23:09,680
and doing well and very very competitive. It feels like

451
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,000
when you when the thing was when you when you

452
00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:14,039
play you know, when when you when you play a

453
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,319
Triton or a super high Roll or No Limit or

454
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,480
PLO event, you're playing against people that only play no

455
00:23:19,519 --> 00:23:23,319
Limit or PLO or maybe two. And so I try

456
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,160
to do that and then also compete like in all

457
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,200
the mixed games. So you know, I'm aware that what

458
00:23:29,279 --> 00:23:33,000
I'm it's it's like it's a pretty crazy challenge. But

459
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,799
one was the results were good. The second was I

460
00:23:35,839 --> 00:23:40,160
actually just really enjoy the grind. I just really enjoy

461
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,319
studying and learning, which most I think a lot of

462
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,759
people that's sort of a necessary evil, And I actually

463
00:23:46,839 --> 00:23:47,519
really enjoy it.

464
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:53,279
Speaker 2: But then to interrupt you here the slow moving away

465
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,759
from the business life to being quote unquote a poker

466
00:23:56,799 --> 00:24:01,359
player in your business world and also maybe among friends

467
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,599
and family outside of poker, that might seem absolutely insane.

468
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,160
How how was that conversation or how was that perceived

469
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,880
that you were I guess slowly pivoting, yeah, to operating

470
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,759
in this world and universe that is so far removed

471
00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:17,599
from where you were.

472
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the reaction wasn't I would say for them,

473
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:26,480
of course, the like if you take my mom, she's like,

474
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,759
you're gambling, You're going to dine a ditch. She has

475
00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:31,359
this image that I'm going to die in a ditch

476
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,759
at the fucking rio. Excuse my French. You know, I'm like,

477
00:24:34,839 --> 00:24:37,319
literally she can picture me, like lying next to got

478
00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:39,680
her way to water is slowly dripping over my face,

479
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,279
and I'm just broke and begging. You know, they're living

480
00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:46,599
in the tunnels exactly. And now she's like sends me

481
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,519
an article of you know, the German tabloid that her

482
00:24:49,519 --> 00:24:51,599
friends have sent her that like, her son just won

483
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,759
two and a half million of tritent, and she watches

484
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,440
on YouTube and she's excited, and so that changes it

485
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,720
for her, you know, I would say for the family,

486
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:03,440
it's been and you know, my wife is less outcome

487
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,160
oriented than my mom, but but more so than me.

488
00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:08,920
So she understands that there's a lot of luck in

489
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,000
the game. But she'll be like, you know, why are

490
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,960
you going there if you're not winning money? But she understood. Look,

491
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,799
she the family now sees more of a They see

492
00:25:19,799 --> 00:25:24,400
the causality between daddy sitting and studying and working hard

493
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,720
and trying really hard, and you know, and he has

494
00:25:27,759 --> 00:25:30,559
such a success so which I think is also really

495
00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:33,960
important to me that you know, when when my daughters

496
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,119
are saying, you're going a holiday, I'm like, no, I'm

497
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:37,920
actually going to work. Like you see when I'm sitting

498
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:39,599
in front of my computer all the time and doing

499
00:25:39,599 --> 00:25:42,000
this and this, like this is work for daddy, and

500
00:25:42,079 --> 00:25:45,799
so that's important. So it's become a lot more acceptable,

501
00:25:45,839 --> 00:25:49,960
I would say within the family. The business world, I'm

502
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,519
not sure, you know, I think a lot of them are.

503
00:25:53,759 --> 00:25:59,599
It's definitely seen as an amazing level of accomplishment that

504
00:25:59,839 --> 00:26:04,119
you have success in two unrelated fields. I think there's

505
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,039
also a lot of them that secretly are wishing that

506
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,400
they could quit or would have quit, and they don't

507
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,400
doing it because the money is so good, and maybe

508
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,839
there are some of them that are doing that are

509
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,920
thinking what the fuck is he doing? Because I think

510
00:26:20,079 --> 00:26:24,599
the practical challenge is that you know, I've taken I've

511
00:26:24,599 --> 00:26:26,720
turned down all opportunities that were presented to me. I

512
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:31,960
was very very close to take one about like at

513
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,839
the end of last year, which I ended up turning

514
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,839
down to be essentially like number two guy in a

515
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,759
very big company with the path that becomes COO. And

516
00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:43,160
I think there is a risk that you atrophy both

517
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,799
in substance and in perception that like okay, Phil used

518
00:26:47,799 --> 00:26:49,720
to be really experienced and really smart and whatnot, but

519
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,160
he hasn't been around for the last six years and

520
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,000
like Kenny actually come back right. So that that's just

521
00:26:55,039 --> 00:26:57,519
the risk that I need to keep in mind as

522
00:26:57,559 --> 00:26:59,720
I decide kind of what I might want to do next.

523
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,519
Speaker 2: And then so then in the field of private equity,

524
00:27:04,839 --> 00:27:08,279
to me, as an outsider, it doesn't get much more

525
00:27:08,279 --> 00:27:11,400
competitive than that. You know, people that go to fancy

526
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,559
business schools aspire to be in that environment. Why was

527
00:27:16,599 --> 00:27:18,960
it that you were able to reach that level and

528
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,319
why were you approached even years later. You know, the

529
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,680
thing you mentioned about at the end of last year,

530
00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:26,880
to be number two at a big firm, can you

531
00:27:27,079 --> 00:27:30,839
actually sort of quantify it into maybe a few small

532
00:27:30,839 --> 00:27:34,359
specifics or some details to give some color to the

533
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,480
fact that you know you were the guy or you

534
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,680
or you are seen as someone who can still be

535
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,359
the guy. Because clearly there's thousands of smart people out

536
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,720
there that would love to have those opportunities to try

537
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,599
and prove themselves. So what are some detail details or

538
00:27:50,599 --> 00:27:52,359
intricacies that set you apart.

539
00:27:54,319 --> 00:27:55,839
Speaker 1: I think you probably want to get someone else in

540
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,240
a podcast answer that private equity is kind of a

541
00:27:59,319 --> 00:28:02,720
very multi faceted kind of role that you have and

542
00:28:02,759 --> 00:28:05,920
that you know, it's it's very in terms of the skills,

543
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,880
it's it's very analytical, especially as you're younger and you

544
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,440
build complex financial models and you know you need to

545
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,119
sort of find a way to translate kind of business

546
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,720
insights into sort of financial outputs. That sort of the

547
00:28:21,759 --> 00:28:24,880
first kind of job that you have, you know, as

548
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,920
you I would say, get older and become you know,

549
00:28:28,079 --> 00:28:32,880
a partner. I think that at the heart is you

550
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,720
need to have investment judgment, which is you know, being

551
00:28:37,759 --> 00:28:44,160
able to distill a investment decision into the three or

552
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,160
four things that really really matter that will decide whether

553
00:28:48,279 --> 00:28:50,119
or not this will be a good investment or not.

554
00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:52,119
And then on those you need to ask the right

555
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,720
questions and you need to be able to make the

556
00:28:54,799 --> 00:28:57,079
right judgment again in a face of a lot of

557
00:28:57,119 --> 00:29:01,480
ambiguity and and and on certainty. I'm not sure how

558
00:29:01,519 --> 00:29:03,440
much of that can be taught versus how much of

559
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:09,279
that is there's probably it's probably fifty to fifty in

560
00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:10,960
terms of like how much of that you can learn

561
00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:12,799
versus like do you have it or not? Do you

562
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,440
just have that kind of judgment? I would say, you're.

563
00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: Not running solvers on on business decisions.

564
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:21,359
Speaker 1: Well, it's similar in that, like you know, like there's

565
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,319
always a financial model in the background that translates kind

566
00:29:25,319 --> 00:29:28,440
of a question into into an outcome, like this is,

567
00:29:29,039 --> 00:29:31,839
you know what the profitability of the businesses this year.

568
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,519
This is the return on the investment given certain given

569
00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:37,000
it's all always given certain assumptions, right, So in some

570
00:29:37,039 --> 00:29:40,240
ways it's similar to solvers, and that we never really

571
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,519
get to trend some of the outputs, and solvers we

572
00:29:42,559 --> 00:29:45,599
can do ourselves. Some of them we might be aware of.

573
00:29:45,799 --> 00:29:49,960
But I think poker players are quite lazy relative to

574
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,119
you know, people in business, because we sort of have

575
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,720
this kind of model that spits out the answer. Like

576
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,440
in business we always joke like every model shows a

577
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,440
twenty percent return because that's sort of the threshold return.

578
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,400
And it's sort of like it's a joke because I

579
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,880
can show you a twenty with certain assumptions, and right,

580
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,640
it's not about actually what the model says. It's about

581
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,799
being aware of the knobs that matter and what happens

582
00:30:17,799 --> 00:30:20,640
when you turn them. And so that's really the way

583
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,440
I think you got to approach it. And that's also

584
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,359
the way the elite players kind of study. They look

585
00:30:24,359 --> 00:30:27,200
at a certain situation, not like I played this hand

586
00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:29,599
and did I make the right decision or not? Is

587
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,440
that what happens if you change certain assumptions. The second

588
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,480
thing is that in private equity, what happens is you

589
00:30:37,559 --> 00:30:39,640
become the control share all the typically of a company,

590
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,000
but you don't run a company, which means one of

591
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,440
the biggest drivers of success is finding the right people

592
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,880
to run the business. Like you would say the best people,

593
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,599
but the best people is actually the right people, because

594
00:30:51,599 --> 00:30:53,920
there is no such thing as one executive who's going

595
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,440
to be successful in every business. It's in my mind

596
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,279
horses for courses. So another big factor is for of course,

597
00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:02,680
finding the right people, which takes a lot of judgment.

598
00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:05,640
It's like you can't just like they can't just say,

599
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,960
oh we hire like Tim Cook or you know it's

600
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,920
it's usually and I'm sure actually put Tim Cook in

601
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,559
some situation or take Elon Musk in a situation where whatever,

602
00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:19,519
he doesn't have control over everything, and he'll probably be

603
00:31:19,599 --> 00:31:22,039
a fucking disaster. So it's all about making that judgment.

604
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,160
And then it's about finding a way to influence people right,

605
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:30,880
finding ways to get them to maybe direct them in

606
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,279
a certain way, but why they still feel empowered that

607
00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:35,799
they're they're running to show and so it's a lot

608
00:31:35,799 --> 00:31:38,920
of soft skills that matter that it might also be influencing,

609
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,359
like do you want to sell your business to me?

610
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,039
So there's a certain amount of salesmanship. So those are

611
00:31:44,039 --> 00:31:46,880
sort of the two qualities that it takes to be

612
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,440
successful once you're more senior. But then just and the

613
00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:53,160
abstract you know, poker, Private equity similar to poker, is

614
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,559
a game where you have to have extremely frustration tolerance,

615
00:31:56,599 --> 00:32:00,400
and be extremely disciplined. Like you look at literally twenty

616
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,519
or thirty investments, some of them for several months, and

617
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:08,440
you might do one of them, and that one needs

618
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,039
to be like in your life as an investor, you

619
00:32:11,119 --> 00:32:14,279
might make like just like I think I worked on

620
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,960
I did eight or nine deals over a career of

621
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,240
twenty years. And so those there's eras of omission to

622
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,240
the ones you don't do, which no one ever talks about.

623
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,920
But the eras of co mission like those, you got

624
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,519
to get down to a very low number or zero.

625
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:31,519
Like we had this thing in our job, which is

626
00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:34,160
just be right. You make a decision, you fire your bullet,

627
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,160
want to be whatever, five or ten bullets, you better

628
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,119
be right in order to get there. You know you're

629
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:40,920
going to kiss a lot of frogs, and so that

630
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,599
there's a lot of you know, intrinsic qualities that like that,

631
00:32:43,599 --> 00:32:46,000
that frustration tolerance that you need to have in order

632
00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:47,119
to be successful at the job.

633
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 2: Take me to the single biggest decision you made in business,

634
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,400
and please, you know, be as detailed as you want

635
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,440
to be. But I'm curious if you say you only

636
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,960
fired so few bullets over such a big career. The

637
00:33:01,039 --> 00:33:03,880
decision making point where you know the bullet was fired

638
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,480
into something that became huge and successful. Do you recall

639
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,599
that moment and the specifics of it and what did

640
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:12,880
that turn into.

641
00:33:13,119 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: The two investments that I spent the most time on

642
00:33:16,839 --> 00:33:21,119
and that were felt very difficult at the time seven

643
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:26,799
and twelve year journeys for me, so and it turned

644
00:33:26,799 --> 00:33:29,680
out to be very successful, like more than ten times money.

645
00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:32,359
The most difficult decision was do we make the investment

646
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,319
or not? And you have to think about in private

647
00:33:34,359 --> 00:33:39,160
equity like you spend you spent months diligencing in business,

648
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,079
and then you're at the end, you're in a competitive

649
00:33:41,079 --> 00:33:44,880
auction and it's literally who pays the highest price at

650
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,759
the end, plus who who's over management more maybe, but

651
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,880
at the end, it's really about who pays the highest price.

652
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,359
And so it feels a lot like dog catches car.

653
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:54,400
You know what that means.

654
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:55,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like.

655
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: The dog runs after the car that they never and

656
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,480
suddenly the dog catches the car. What happens now, like,

657
00:33:59,519 --> 00:34:01,519
are we mock that paid the most for the business

658
00:34:02,039 --> 00:34:04,279
or did we see something that the others did not?

659
00:34:04,799 --> 00:34:06,480
And then once you own a business, do you find

660
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,280
a way to do something with the business, so that

661
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:11,000
when we made the investment decision, it felt very uncomfortable.

662
00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:14,039
It was, you know, lots of adversity. European debt crist

663
00:34:14,079 --> 00:34:17,239
at the time sort of a sector that we weren't

664
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,559
in love with, but we sort of just saw a

665
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:21,800
lot of things that we liked about the fundamentals of

666
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,679
the of the industry and what this business could do.

667
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,039
And yeah, that was a that always feels like I

668
00:34:28,039 --> 00:34:31,079
could effectively sort of putting your career on the line.

669
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,599
But that felt very unnerving. And then there were a

670
00:34:34,599 --> 00:34:37,199
lot of menagerial decisions, like who do we make the CEO?

671
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,480
Or there were two founders and they were they didn't

672
00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:43,840
like each other, but they felt essential to the business.

673
00:34:44,039 --> 00:34:47,039
And then we ended up firing one and keeping the other,

674
00:34:47,119 --> 00:34:50,199
which was a big one. And then who do we

675
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,159
make CEO was a big decision. Then we were we

676
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,679
did it with a with another firm together and we

677
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:58,679
had made three times of money four years in which

678
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,039
was great. We were f to fifty. They wanted to

679
00:35:01,079 --> 00:35:03,800
sell and then we just said, why don't we buy

680
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,719
them out and keep going? Like that felt really unnerving.

681
00:35:07,039 --> 00:35:09,280
That wasn't my idea and I was against it at

682
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,599
the time, but then I came around, but that was

683
00:35:11,639 --> 00:35:14,039
my that was a partner of mine. Then the business

684
00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:16,320
actually really took off afterwards, So that was a huge

685
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,440
kind of decision. So those are sort of the types

686
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,760
of decisions that you know that you sort of make

687
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,840
along the way, and then you make a lot of

688
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,920
sort of business decisions like should we take down prices,

689
00:35:28,119 --> 00:35:29,800
what do we do to get down churn? Should we

690
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,000
launch this new product, should we make this acquisitions, should

691
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,880
we open this new country? You know, like all of

692
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,119
these type of type of things that that sort of come.

693
00:35:38,079 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: Up where we sort of left off the book conversation

694
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,280
is you progressing through the ranks, finding a sort of

695
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:49,159
new motivation and a competitive drive in a field where

696
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,000
you hadn't proven yourself yet or hadn't hadn't had a

697
00:35:53,079 --> 00:35:56,880
level of success that you had seen in business, and

698
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:02,159
then to pivot again within that niche. Going from hold

699
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:07,960
Them to mixed games to me almost feels like is

700
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,559
he just constantly looking for a new challenge because he

701
00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:15,599
gets bored? Because mixed games is the niche within the

702
00:36:15,679 --> 00:36:18,480
niche where if you I mean I think it. Take

703
00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:20,239
me for example, I love mixed games. I play all

704
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,519
the games. I play them to a degree that i'm

705
00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:26,239
sort of you know, I'm okay at all the mixedgams.

706
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,159
You and I could have a good conversation about mixed

707
00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:32,079
game strategy. However, if I were to have ambitions within

708
00:36:32,159 --> 00:36:34,719
mixed games, my ceiling probably lies at like a ten

709
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,960
twenty twenty forty game, and the next game that I

710
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,280
can play is eight hundred and sixteen hundred or two

711
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,920
K four K. There is no there's no ladder unless

712
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,760
you play Wilster's book tournaments. So for you to have

713
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,239
the capital to try and say, I'm confident enough to

714
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,559
try this out. However, if I want to get better

715
00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:56,719
at this, and if I want to play, the price

716
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,320
tag is really really high. Why did you feel the

717
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:05,159
need to venture into Bobby's room, table one, whatever wherever

718
00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:09,920
those games were. Because in the hold them realm there

719
00:37:10,039 --> 00:37:12,440
is much more game selection possible. And if you sit

720
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,960
down in these mixed games, you see all the guys

721
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,320
that you mentioned earlier that you probably were a fan

722
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,320
of back in the day. Yeah, and that's the only

723
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:19,960
way to compete.

724
00:37:20,159 --> 00:37:23,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a couple of reasons. I mean, how I

725
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,840
ended up playing mixed games, some of them are just idiosyncratic.

726
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,639
I literally I played a no limit event. I busted.

727
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,559
I was devastated. I wanted to jump in the next tournament.

728
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,119
And the next tournament that was going was a ten game.

729
00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:41,119
I came third and sort of got the bug. I

730
00:37:41,159 --> 00:37:45,440
would say, you know, I didn't know two or three

731
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,559
of the games even at the time I had never

732
00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:50,599
played played before, but just got lucky and you know,

733
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,719
got the bug. But then the other thing is that

734
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,480
just for my we sort of talked a little bit

735
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,800
about like we all have our little sort of value system,

736
00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:03,360
things that matter to us and whatnot. And somehow maybe

737
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,760
it was through the lore about the Bobby's Room games

738
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,159
and you know, guys like Nick Ground and whatnot would

739
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,639
play like I felt to me like, if you want

740
00:38:10,639 --> 00:38:12,679
to really be good at poker for me, as like

741
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,559
you got to play all the games. That that was

742
00:38:14,639 --> 00:38:18,320
just something that I sort of always that was sort

743
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:22,079
of that was sort of my has been my value

744
00:38:22,119 --> 00:38:24,599
system really since I started taking poker like more and

745
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,199
more more seriously. I then also came to believe that

746
00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:34,119
because there was virtually no kind of solvers for most

747
00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:38,119
of the games at the time, that you know, the

748
00:38:38,199 --> 00:38:41,079
playing field for me would be not having the time

749
00:38:41,079 --> 00:38:44,960
to study would be a bit flatter, and that some

750
00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:47,280
of these other qualities that I mentioned therefore on a

751
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,079
relative basis, are more relevant here and allow me allow

752
00:38:51,119 --> 00:38:53,880
me to compete. But since I would say, I also

753
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:56,920
realized that look one is that there's a lot more

754
00:38:57,079 --> 00:39:01,159
on all games available now mixed games are still there's

755
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,559
the amount of resources that are available for mixed games

756
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:09,679
relative to Nolment and PLO is it's a fraction, And

757
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,679
I kind of realized that it's actually really awesome if

758
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,159
you have the time to just arguably no Liment and

759
00:39:17,199 --> 00:39:19,480
PLO are some of the games that have the most

760
00:39:20,119 --> 00:39:23,400
i would say strategic depth, and there's just a deluge

761
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,480
of information that's available that allows you to get better.

762
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,800
And they are also just more tournaments to be played. Right,

763
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,400
if you want to play mixed games, you effect in

764
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,920
tournaments you have two outlets. Effectively, there's the PGT Mixed

765
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,480
series and there's the World Series. You know for Nolan,

766
00:39:38,519 --> 00:39:43,679
with PLO you have a lot more. And so that's

767
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,000
why sort of about sort of two years ago, I

768
00:39:46,039 --> 00:39:49,079
said I really want to be able to compete in

769
00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:51,760
all these great kind of noliment and plo events, and

770
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,400
you know, they're sort of a path for me to

771
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,239
get there given the amount of resources that are available.

772
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:58,079
I'd say the last thing I would say is that,

773
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,000
you know, poker has just really changed since I started

774
00:40:01,039 --> 00:40:03,719
playing that it used to be that all the best

775
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:06,719
players were playing cash games like that, do you want

776
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,159
to find the best players in the world that used

777
00:40:08,159 --> 00:40:11,039
to be in cash games? And you know, tournaments would

778
00:40:11,079 --> 00:40:13,360
sort of little be sort of the tournament people were

779
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,519
sort of poo pooed on and they're sort of fish

780
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,840
nowadays with the advent of private games, effectively all the

781
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,320
best players have migrated to tournaments, and cash games have

782
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,800
become at the high stakes level really sort of private

783
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,599
and built around a couple of weakers players, and like,

784
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,400
those are probably not the guys that would win against

785
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,840
the best in the world anymore. But there's been always

786
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,920
one exception in mixed games, which is the Bobby's Room

787
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:43,320
game has always stayed the game which has been essentially

788
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:49,079
public and still had the best players. And so that

789
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,320
for me always felt like the beacon, the shining beacon

790
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:53,800
on the hill is that like, if you can be

791
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:57,840
competitive in that game, like that's that's available. It's there,

792
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,159
and you're always going to play against the best.

793
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:03,599
Speaker 2: Were you're not worried that the fact that there was

794
00:41:03,639 --> 00:41:06,760
a seat for you meant that they were very happy

795
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:07,159
to see you.

796
00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I mean it's changed ever since this year.

797
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,519
It's now sort of semi private, but up until this year,

798
00:41:13,559 --> 00:41:16,880
it's always been public and the person the person gets

799
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,239
to see to whoever's there on time. It doesn't matter

800
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,960
who you are, and so, but yeah, they were probably

801
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,679
happy to see me. And as I said before, you know,

802
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,559
I think I started in a game being negative ev

803
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,239
you know, finding a way to actually I would say

804
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:35,880
win small, break even, but learning a lot, you know,

805
00:41:36,199 --> 00:41:39,159
And you know nowadays I don't know. I don't know

806
00:41:39,199 --> 00:41:40,760
if I'm positive v I hope so bit.

807
00:41:41,039 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 2: You're still allowed to sit down, You're still allowed to

808
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:43,920
sit down.

809
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: We're still allowed to sit down. Well, effectively the game

810
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,920
is still run that anyone's allowed to sit down, but

811
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:54,280
it's no longer there are certain people that in that

812
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,760
game where people just won't really want it to be

813
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,000
playing a game. So, for example, I think two or

814
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,159
three years ago, first we played at the beginning of

815
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:05,239
summer and the game starts at ten, okay, and then

816
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,840
we sort of say, do you want to play again tomorrow? Okay, tomorrow,

817
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,039
We'll play again at ten, but nine thirty the game

818
00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:15,199
is full. Okay, yeah, yeah, And like this ended like

819
00:42:16,159 --> 00:42:19,119
on like a week later. The game was full at

820
00:42:19,159 --> 00:42:21,480
six forty five in the morning, which is kind of

821
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:26,039
it's like mutual. It's like self assured mutual destruction. And

822
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,840
you know, now you can sort of say, okay, you guys,

823
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:30,800
have a seat. The game starts at a normal time,

824
00:42:32,039 --> 00:42:34,119
you know, like whatever. Someone had a big losing session

825
00:42:34,119 --> 00:42:36,519
to get to play. Someone is in talent for only

826
00:42:36,559 --> 00:42:38,199
a couple of days they get to play, you know.

827
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:42,800
So by making the game private, you're allowed, you're able

828
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:44,000
to make some adult decisions.

829
00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 2: Like so, is there is there literally a a Bobby's

830
00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:49,239
Room group chat?

831
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:50,679
Speaker 1: Yeah?

832
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 2: I mean that to me is really funny. Yeah, because

833
00:42:53,199 --> 00:42:55,559
we're talking about a group chat with some of the

834
00:42:55,559 --> 00:43:00,639
most interesting personalities in poker as well, some of the

835
00:43:00,679 --> 00:43:03,760
most successful people and perhaps also some of the richest

836
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,079
people in poker, all trying to figure out how can

837
00:43:06,119 --> 00:43:06,760
we play our game.

838
00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:10,039
Speaker 1: There's some interesting characters in that group and in that chat,

839
00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:14,280
and so it wasn't necessary. It's more transactional, okay, And

840
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,519
a lot of times actually you don't use it because

841
00:43:16,559 --> 00:43:19,599
the people that end the game the night before agree

842
00:43:19,639 --> 00:43:21,639
when to play again the next day, and it might

843
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,800
even be an incentive to not let everyone know, even

844
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,159
though when the game was public, everyone could sit down,

845
00:43:26,679 --> 00:43:28,519
like if you had got a good game going and

846
00:43:28,559 --> 00:43:30,639
like a game that's full and they all agree to

847
00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:33,280
show again next morning, there's no incentive to message to the

848
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,880
group chats, so someone else suddenly jumps in. So it

849
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,000
wasn't necessarily a chat that. I think there were some

850
00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:41,519
summers where it was used more than others, and there

851
00:43:41,599 --> 00:43:44,039
have been various iterations where some people were dropped off

852
00:43:44,079 --> 00:43:46,840
that were the first group chat, you know, had people

853
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,599
that never never really played anymore, and then you have

854
00:43:49,679 --> 00:43:53,000
new chats and whatnot. So but yeah, there's there's there,

855
00:43:53,039 --> 00:43:54,320
there's there have been some chats.

856
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:59,599
Speaker 2: Yes, if those chats were sort of public, it might

857
00:43:59,639 --> 00:44:05,000
be like a good movie, your documentary in that realm.

858
00:44:05,039 --> 00:44:07,960
And I think Bobby's Room is endlessly fascinating because of

859
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,239
the lore, because of the setting, because of the people

860
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,960
that are immediately associated with it. When you think back

861
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,119
of when you first sat down there, What stakes do

862
00:44:19,159 --> 00:44:21,360
you guys play, what games were which, which people were

863
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,880
in the game, and what memories do you have of

864
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:25,480
those early days.

865
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,639
Speaker 1: Well, my first experience was not the official Bobby'soom game.

866
00:44:29,639 --> 00:44:32,920
I was here for a day and I played Mixed,

867
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,559
and I think I messaged Scott, who I knew from

868
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,920
Burning Man, and I was, you know, I'm here, I

869
00:44:42,039 --> 00:44:46,119
like to play mixed, happy to play high, and he

870
00:44:46,199 --> 00:44:49,039
then messaged the Bobby's Room chat, does anyone want to play?

871
00:44:49,079 --> 00:44:52,760
And I think we played like five hundred one thousand

872
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,280
or six hundred twelve hundred, So not the official Bobby'soom game.

873
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,000
I think it was like Angry John Hat my Cat,

874
00:44:59,159 --> 00:45:02,679
maybe Keith Gibson and a couple of guys and ended

875
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,599
up ended up winning a lot after being down a lot,

876
00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:11,800
and I'm like, okay, show up the next summer. There's

877
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:15,039
a game that Hanks ran six twelve hundred or eight

878
00:45:15,159 --> 00:45:18,159
sixteen and ended up winning a lot there And suddenly

879
00:45:18,199 --> 00:45:20,840
I had enough for one buying in a two four

880
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,280
K game. And in that game, where.

881
00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 2: Was it was? The buying for the two K four game?

882
00:45:26,159 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 1: I mean the minimum at the time was I think

883
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:33,239
maybe even only like forty K, but I think I

884
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:34,760
kind of don't want to sit down with less than

885
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,000
two hundred, Like I think I bought in for one

886
00:45:37,039 --> 00:45:39,760
hundred and then one hundred behind. And in the game

887
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:50,079
where Aaron Katz, Joizo, Doyle, Keith Gibson again at the

888
00:45:50,119 --> 00:45:57,519
time my cat angry Gordo, guys like that Jason Mercier

889
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,920
old Jason Mercer at one point zero with overweight and

890
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:08,039
the long beauty frustration, and I just end up have

891
00:46:08,119 --> 00:46:10,920
an amazing summer. I won like a twenty five K

892
00:46:11,079 --> 00:46:13,880
mixed at Aria and I won a lot in that game,

893
00:46:14,679 --> 00:46:18,119
And so that sort of got me. I mean, I

894
00:46:18,119 --> 00:46:22,119
think I was like maybe ten times worse than now,

895
00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:23,440
so I must have gotten very lucky.

896
00:46:23,559 --> 00:46:27,079
Speaker 2: You're probably not winning now that you're better, works.

897
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, But yeah, that sort of got That got

898
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:31,800
me started.

899
00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 2: The aura of someone like Ivy, And there's hardly anyone

900
00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:38,159
like that, but that that Bobby's Room game has seen

901
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:42,000
probably the biggest auras that that poker has ever seen,

902
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,079
and probably like before your time, you know, someone like

903
00:46:44,119 --> 00:46:46,519
Chip Reese. But then also you know, you still got

904
00:46:46,559 --> 00:46:49,239
a chance to play with Doyle. You play with Ivy

905
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:53,760
and you saw ivy in various states. What can you

906
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:58,000
tell me, given your life experience and all the roads

907
00:46:58,039 --> 00:47:00,320
you traveled to get to that game, what can you

908
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,199
tell me about what those guys possess, what they have

909
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:07,840
that makes them sort of successful at the highest level,

910
00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:13,840
especially coming from an era where you couldn't just learn

911
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,920
as if you were going to University of poker. It

912
00:47:17,079 --> 00:47:21,280
was basically life was the university of poker, and they

913
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,440
were the few that reached the top. What did you

914
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:26,639
see in them that made them so special?

915
00:47:27,679 --> 00:47:31,559
Speaker 1: The composition of the Bobby's Room game has changed a lot,

916
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:36,159
even I think I've now maybe played for eight years.

917
00:47:36,199 --> 00:47:39,639
Even over that reasonably short period, it's changed a lot.

918
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,239
And so I know a lot of players that are

919
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,760
no longer playing in Bobby's because they got torched. Maybe

920
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,599
not in the beginning, but you know, maybe stuff worked

921
00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:53,440
out with them for them for a while until it didn't. Right.

922
00:47:53,519 --> 00:47:56,079
So if you look at the people that actually have

923
00:47:56,199 --> 00:47:58,000
had the staying power at that that's not a very

924
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,039
big group, right. I think one of the biggest factors

925
00:48:01,079 --> 00:48:04,920
in that game is not necessarily poker talent. It is

926
00:48:05,039 --> 00:48:09,159
actually mental fortitude and resilience and it's you know, you're

927
00:48:09,159 --> 00:48:13,480
playing with a very small player pools actually finding ways

928
00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:16,000
to sort of adjust to the various kind of playing

929
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:21,159
styles kind of successfully. And so that in my mind,

930
00:48:22,079 --> 00:48:25,039
you know, drives longevity in that game. And I don't

931
00:48:25,079 --> 00:48:30,119
think there's a lot of people that have it. You know, Ivy, Jason,

932
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,360
you know, also Patrick, those are some of the guys

933
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,159
that have really stuck around. You know, Dahl is interesting

934
00:48:37,199 --> 00:48:39,679
in that I'm not sure if he was winning by

935
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,320
a time sort of in his final years in the game,

936
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,280
or let's let's say had positive ev but it was

937
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:50,159
really was inspirational. Is that, you know, as a as

938
00:48:50,199 --> 00:48:52,639
a life lesson in a way, is that the guy

939
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,280
was arguably sharp until the very last day that he played.

940
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,440
And I just think it's so interesting. I was just

941
00:48:58,519 --> 00:49:01,639
chatting with a fantasy draft team member of mine who says,

942
00:49:01,639 --> 00:49:04,280
you know, his fifties, doesn't know how many years you

943
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,559
have left, Like you might have forty years left if

944
00:49:06,559 --> 00:49:09,199
you if you keep on challenge yourself mentally every day,

945
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,159
I think, you know, I look like Buffett, I look

946
00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:15,519
at Doyle, and to me, it's a very inspirational example

947
00:49:15,559 --> 00:49:18,079
that you can compete mentally at the highest level if

948
00:49:18,079 --> 00:49:20,920
you just don't stop. You know. The other thing Daryl

949
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,519
had is that he had that he had that dog,

950
00:49:25,559 --> 00:49:27,760
I would say, and that he really wanted to win

951
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,159
and he would get really grumpy and a very in

952
00:49:31,199 --> 00:49:33,760
a very humane and funny way when he would be losing.

953
00:49:34,159 --> 00:49:36,480
And so that I really miss and I think some

954
00:49:36,559 --> 00:49:39,800
of that, some of that kind of atmosphere has gotten

955
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,480
lost a little bit because you had these big personalities

956
00:49:42,599 --> 00:49:44,920
like him that would just want to win really badly.

957
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:47,000
They will get really grumpy when they lose. Same with

958
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:49,280
Gus was great. You know, he also doesn't play the

959
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:53,519
game much anymore, and so that's some of that jovial, gambly,

960
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:56,880
kind of folksy nature of the game. Like make Meno's

961
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:00,719
no mistakes. There are huge sums changing hand, like that's

962
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:03,400
a little bit gone, someone's coming back. Because you have

963
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:07,719
guys like you know, Alberts and Wass and you know,

964
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,559
there are sort of also great personalities. But that was

965
00:50:10,639 --> 00:50:11,880
quite special playing with Doyle.

966
00:50:12,159 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, just to stay on Doyle for just one more

967
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,880
question here. He passed in twenty twenty three, so you

968
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,880
had a few years where you probably played with him

969
00:50:23,079 --> 00:50:26,800
quite frequently. They have memories or examples of like you know,

970
00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:31,079
some like a Doyle moment from those final years that

971
00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:32,880
sort of stand out in your memory.

972
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,119
Speaker 1: He really wanted to play tournaments. But what you did

973
00:50:35,159 --> 00:50:38,079
notice with Doyle is that even like just in a

974
00:50:38,119 --> 00:50:40,599
cash game, he would get tired, and he was aware

975
00:50:40,639 --> 00:50:43,000
of that, and of course that makes playing tournaments very,

976
00:50:43,079 --> 00:50:45,719
very difficult for him, and that's why he played so

977
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,159
much cash because he could. He could start and end

978
00:50:48,199 --> 00:50:51,159
whenever he wanted to. I think that the best moments

979
00:50:51,159 --> 00:50:55,320
that I can remember would be when someone would get unlucky,

980
00:50:56,199 --> 00:50:59,400
you know, on him, lucky on him like in draw

981
00:50:59,559 --> 00:51:04,519
or in raz or. He would kind of mutter, sort

982
00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:08,360
of under his breath, like motherfucker, or you're gonna be

983
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,039
a big star, and he would make these just various

984
00:51:11,039 --> 00:51:15,199
sarcastic comments, or when he would play props. My favorite

985
00:51:15,199 --> 00:51:18,519
story is actually not one where I was there for myself,

986
00:51:18,599 --> 00:51:21,400
but as my friend Gordo, who was I'm probably gonna

987
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:23,599
butcher it, but I think this is just the most

988
00:51:23,679 --> 00:51:26,880
hilarious story. I think they're playing like four handed or

989
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:31,000
so it's like him, Gordo, Doyle, Keith Lear and a

990
00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:35,719
couple of other guys and Keith, Gordo and Doyle are

991
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:40,119
playing props like the normal props, reasonable level, you know,

992
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,480
probably a couple of thousands of point, you know, and

993
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:48,119
most of the games. And at some point Gordo suggests, like,

994
00:51:48,119 --> 00:51:50,159
why don't we do a prop. They're just about to

995
00:51:50,159 --> 00:51:52,880
start the Bedougie round, and why don't we do a

996
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:56,599
prop for a pat wheel? Do you play boogie? How

997
00:51:56,599 --> 00:51:59,239
many times in your life have you gotten a pat wheel? Never? Okay,

998
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:04,199
I little I think one time and they're like, sure, whatever,

999
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,440
how much? And I think Gordo throws out like a

1000
00:52:06,519 --> 00:52:08,639
huge number, like one hundred, because it never happens, and

1001
00:52:08,639 --> 00:52:10,480
then they say that's too much, and I think they

1002
00:52:10,519 --> 00:52:15,559
agree on still some substantial number, like like forty thousand. Apparently,

1003
00:52:15,599 --> 00:52:18,360
like one or two hands later, Gordo wins a huge

1004
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:24,480
hand and shows the pet wheel, and so Keith's just like,

1005
00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:27,559
how the hell does this happen? You know this and

1006
00:52:27,599 --> 00:52:29,519
that we just agreed, you know, I've never gotten a

1007
00:52:29,559 --> 00:52:32,880
pet wheel and just throws in the money. Doyle does

1008
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,079
not pay, and it goes on. You know, they still

1009
00:52:36,159 --> 00:52:39,000
keep playing. There's this tension in a room, you know,

1010
00:52:39,119 --> 00:52:41,559
Doyle just has the forty thousand next to the stack

1011
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,000
for like a long time until finally, and Gordo is

1012
00:52:45,039 --> 00:52:48,239
smart enough not to say anything until finally he's like,

1013
00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:51,840
I'm gonna pay you, and I promise I'm not going

1014
00:52:51,920 --> 00:52:54,320
to do anything to you. I just want to know

1015
00:52:54,679 --> 00:52:56,679
how did you do it? Tell me how you did it?

1016
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:01,840
Obviously know that Doyle has been through a lot of

1017
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:03,800
things in his life where I'm sure it has been

1018
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:07,880
some funny business on both sides. But the way I

1019
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,119
can I'm not doing justice to the story the way

1020
00:53:10,119 --> 00:53:12,440
Gordo tells it. Also since I wasn't there, but I

1021
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,239
can very well imagine sort of girl's kind of reaction

1022
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,119
to that. It just makes me laugh.

1023
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 2: That's a fantastic story. Now that you've become I would say,

1024
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,199
a feared player in mixed games, and you have results

1025
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:31,239
both terms in cash across all games, what is left

1026
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,760
and poker that satisfies you?

1027
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: Like?

1028
00:53:34,039 --> 00:53:35,679
Speaker 2: Do you feel like you have something to prove? Do

1029
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,559
you look at things like winning a lot of bracelets?

1030
00:53:38,639 --> 00:53:41,199
Is there something that is now this new drive and

1031
00:53:41,239 --> 00:53:44,599
motivation as we've seen you pivot quite a few times

1032
00:53:44,639 --> 00:53:46,960
already even within this game.

1033
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm struggling a little bit kind of with myself

1034
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,480
in terms of how many specific goals like that I

1035
00:53:53,519 --> 00:53:57,079
want to set for myself. I would definitely like to

1036
00:53:57,119 --> 00:54:02,719
win another bracelet. I mean, if I would kind of

1037
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,440
win the PPC one day, that would be amazing. That

1038
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,440
would probably be the one would be the one I

1039
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,599
would like to win the most. You know, I'd love

1040
00:54:10,639 --> 00:54:14,719
to win a trite entitle. But I also realize that

1041
00:54:14,719 --> 00:54:16,920
a lot of that, if you're being honest with yourself,

1042
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:18,639
it just depends on how much volume you could you

1043
00:54:18,639 --> 00:54:20,960
can put him. I mean, sure, I can show up

1044
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,239
in two years only for you know, a one week

1045
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,440
trip play the PPC and win it. But you know,

1046
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,000
volume is obviously gonna gonna be a big kind of

1047
00:54:29,159 --> 00:54:31,719
factor here. I mean, I might wake up next year

1048
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:33,639
and say, look, I'm going to go back to just

1049
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,639
playing whenever I feel without studying a lot, and just

1050
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,639
that obviously will change my goals. But I'd just like

1051
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,199
to just keep on getting better and feel like I

1052
00:54:43,199 --> 00:54:46,039
can be competitive at the elite level whether I'm feared

1053
00:54:46,119 --> 00:54:48,920
or not, or you know, whether I win, embrace it

1054
00:54:49,079 --> 00:54:51,599
or not, and you know, try to accept that, you

1055
00:54:51,639 --> 00:54:54,239
know the outcomes will ultimately follow, or I might not.

1056
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,000
I think one of my my issues my leaks is

1057
00:54:59,199 --> 00:55:02,000
and you have had this debate you said the summer

1058
00:55:02,079 --> 00:55:04,559
is not going the way I was hoping it would go,

1059
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,480
is that you know, I'm very very competitive, and I

1060
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:11,159
think i'm two results in outcome oriented, and you know,

1061
00:55:11,199 --> 00:55:13,400
I think some of that is good, but too much

1062
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:15,920
of it is not. And so I'm trying to be

1063
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,760
a bit more focused on the things that I can

1064
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,360
that I can control, And so in my mind, I

1065
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:21,679
don't go in and say I have to win a

1066
00:55:21,679 --> 00:55:23,480
couple more braces I have to win. This is just

1067
00:55:24,119 --> 00:55:26,360
I want to just keep on getting better and try

1068
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,400
to play at the level that I think I'm capable

1069
00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:31,280
of as often as I can, and you know that's

1070
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,639
most important to me, and hopefully good outcomes will be

1071
00:55:34,679 --> 00:55:35,440
associated with that.

1072
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 2: Final question, is poker harder when you're so financially successful

1073
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:47,400
that you can decide when to show up because you

1074
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:51,360
play against people where the result week to week, month

1075
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,920
a month will decide you know how their lifestyle evolves

1076
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,960
or what their future looks like, and for you, you

1077
00:55:59,039 --> 00:56:03,440
don't have that us So in a way it's almost

1078
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:04,519
irrelevant whether you win.

1079
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,119
Speaker 1: I think for me, it's probably neutral or an advantage.

1080
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,599
Everyone's different. I know people that play really best when

1081
00:56:12,599 --> 00:56:15,559
it backs against the wall. I know people that play

1082
00:56:15,639 --> 00:56:19,400
better when they've sold a lot of action and the

1083
00:56:19,400 --> 00:56:24,559
financial stakes for a given tournament are much lower. I

1084
00:56:24,559 --> 00:56:28,039
don't think I've gotten to the point where, like I

1085
00:56:28,079 --> 00:56:30,320
messaged my wife yesterday, I played in a cash game,

1086
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,480
and you know, I won what you might think as

1087
00:56:32,519 --> 00:56:35,199
a trivial number from my net worth. But I also

1088
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,000
know how much money that is, and so I don't

1089
00:56:39,039 --> 00:56:42,320
think i've lost sort of the sense of how much

1090
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,159
is a dollar worth. I wouldn't be playing if I

1091
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:47,039
was losing money. But I'm not playing to make money,

1092
00:56:47,079 --> 00:56:49,920
if that makes sense. So that's not my primary motivation.

1093
00:56:50,119 --> 00:56:53,039
And I think anyone who devotes most of their time

1094
00:56:53,039 --> 00:56:56,440
to tournament poker, as I am right now, I mean

1095
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,719
I've played four cash sessions the entire summer so far,

1096
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,800
I'm here to play a tournament poker. Like, if your

1097
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:05,519
objective is to make money, you're not going to play

1098
00:57:05,519 --> 00:57:08,519
tournaments unless you're never getting to any good private games.

1099
00:57:08,559 --> 00:57:11,960
But and so I think tournament poker is an extraordinarily

1100
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:15,400
difficult way to make money, uh in anything, and and

1101
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,880
and and and in poker, and so that's I'm lucky

1102
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,079
enough that that's not my primary motivation. I think it's,

1103
00:57:22,199 --> 00:57:24,559
if anything, helpful if you're sitting in a in a

1104
00:57:24,599 --> 00:57:29,599
big spot and you're making, you know, a play that is,

1105
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,320
you know, maybe high variance, but you think has higher

1106
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,079
expectation but could as more likely to lead to to

1107
00:57:36,199 --> 00:57:38,800
bust out in a high sticks tournament. I think it's

1108
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,159
kind of helpful that you don't have to necessarily worry

1109
00:57:41,159 --> 00:57:43,960
about your immediate p and L. But again, everyone's different.

1110
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:46,320
But for me, I think it's neutral or helpful.

1111
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty obvious who the ace is here

1112
00:57:49,039 --> 00:57:51,360
at the table. Philip Sturneimer, thank you so much for

1113
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,400
being on the show. Really appreciated you guys. Thanks for

1114
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,960
listening and watching. Please make sure to like the video

1115
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:57,599
subscribe to the channel. If you listening to this on

1116
00:57:57,599 --> 00:58:00,599
the podcast feed, please subscribe to that and we'll catch

1117
00:58:00,599 --> 00:58:02,239
you next week on the next one. Thanks for watching.