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<v Speaker 1>Last episode, we began discussing the case of Cindy James

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<v Speaker 1>and the Invisible Man. Today, we're going to be continuing

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<v Speaker 1>on with part two. To be sure to listen to

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<v Speaker 1>part one first, because trust me, it's worth it and

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<v Speaker 1>it's a case where you're gonna need to listen to

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<v Speaker 1>all of it.

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<v Speaker 2>My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked Ingram,

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<v Speaker 2>a true crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>The following podcast material intended more mature audience. Listener discretion

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<v Speaker 1>is advised. It's part two day question. Did you guys

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<v Speaker 1>wait to binge it do all? Or did you actually

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<v Speaker 1>listen to the day like Tuesday when it came out

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<v Speaker 1>and you're waiting for today to come out now too?

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<v Speaker 1>Like are you a separate it kind of person?

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't.

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<v Speaker 1>Wait, you didn't well, I mean you don't have a choice.

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<v Speaker 2>But I actually sat down here completely forgetting that we

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<v Speaker 2>were on a part two, which is kind of funny

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<v Speaker 2>because usually I do not.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of a good feeling then, because it's like,

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<v Speaker 1>oh right, I get to like catch up on.

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<v Speaker 2>This, yeah, and it kind of like came back to

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<v Speaker 2>me the you know, part one, and I'm like, oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I got a little excited there.

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<v Speaker 1>Which that's good and I think we should dive right

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<v Speaker 1>into this. So let's cud all the bullshit. I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to give you the little rundown recap. So last episode,

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<v Speaker 1>we began talking about Cindy James and the stocking that

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<v Speaker 1>she was enduring. Now there was some suspicion that it

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<v Speaker 1>could have been her ex husband, ROI make peace, but

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<v Speaker 1>Cindy kind of disagreed with that. She didn't think it

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<v Speaker 1>was him. She kind of was like, no, we're on

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<v Speaker 1>good terms and everything, despite her earlier claims that they

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<v Speaker 1>weren't because he was abusive in their relationship. But now

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<v Speaker 1>the stalking. It led to some traumatic phone calls, disturbing

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<v Speaker 1>letters being delivered to her place, potentially even someone entering

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<v Speaker 1>her home as she claimed, and most recently, even an

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<v Speaker 1>encounter where her friend found her right after an attack

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<v Speaker 1>had occurred in her home where she was drug into

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<v Speaker 1>her garage and assaulted by two individuals and she was

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<v Speaker 1>left found with nylons tied around her neck and absolutely terrified.

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<v Speaker 1>Now police were beginning to have their doubts about these

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<v Speaker 1>encounters and the information that Cindy was actually giving them,

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<v Speaker 1>so they asked her to have a poly or to

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<v Speaker 1>take a polygraph test, and this showed that the police

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<v Speaker 1>were right. Cindy was indeed not sharing everything that she knew.

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<v Speaker 1>There was some shady things going on, to say the least.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's where we left off.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, so, yeah, we knew that she was hiding something

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<v Speaker 2>from the police, but we don't really necessarily know what

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<v Speaker 2>extent or what awake exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>The police discovered with this polygraph test that she's hiding something,

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<v Speaker 1>but we haven't discussed what just yet. So let's talk

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<v Speaker 1>about that now. After these polygraph tests with the RCMP,

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<v Speaker 1>Cindy was confronted with the results, it was clear she

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<v Speaker 1>knew more than she was letting on. When officers pressed

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<v Speaker 1>her for answers, she finally broke down through tears. She

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<v Speaker 1>admitted that she did recognize both of her attackers during

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<v Speaker 1>the recent assault when she was found in her garage,

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<v Speaker 1>but when asked to name the men, she refused. Okay, now,

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<v Speaker 1>this was beyond frustrating for police. For months, For months,

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<v Speaker 1>they had poured time and resources into investigating her case.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, they're chasing leads, trying to protect her, and

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<v Speaker 1>now after all that Cindy was sitting here on crucial

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<v Speaker 1>information and refusing to share it. So she was truly

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<v Speaker 1>terrified that like, you know, identifying her attacker could like

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<v Speaker 1>take away that danger right totally. So why wouldn't she

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<v Speaker 1>do that? Why did she continue to report all these

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<v Speaker 1>incidents and like when she has the information that could

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<v Speaker 1>stop it. So it's hard to say why. But if

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<v Speaker 1>she believe naming them would get someone hurt, maybe you know,

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<v Speaker 1>maybe her family.

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<v Speaker 2>Or something, okay, or they were threatening her in some way,

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<v Speaker 2>oh right, yeah, it could be.

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<v Speaker 1>It could be a reason why. But it felt like

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<v Speaker 1>a game to police that she's playing now. At the

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<v Speaker 1>same time, Cindy couldn't bear to stay in her house

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<v Speaker 1>any longer. The memory of what had happened there was

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<v Speaker 1>just too much for her. So she made a drastic decision.

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<v Speaker 1>She moved back in with her ex husband Roy make Peace.

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<v Speaker 1>She believed that despite everything, Roy could protect her if

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<v Speaker 1>anything had happened now. Roy welcomed her back and was

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<v Speaker 1>just as frustrated as Cindy about the lack of protection

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<v Speaker 1>from police. He had stayed updated on what had been

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<v Speaker 1>going on, and in his mind, it was clear that

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<v Speaker 1>the police weren't doing enough to help Cindy, but officers

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<v Speaker 1>still have their suspicions about him. Many of them believed

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<v Speaker 1>that Roy was behind the harassment all along, trying to

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<v Speaker 1>manipulate Cindy into coming back into a relationship with him.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I just literally had that thought like a second ago.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>This theory, however, started to crack when less than a

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<v Speaker 1>week after moving in with Roy, Cindy received another threatening letter,

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<v Speaker 1>and the note read quote, run rabbit, run, I'll show

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<v Speaker 1>you how good I am soon soon bang bang, You're

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<v Speaker 1>dead creepy.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I just need a slight clarification. Is she still

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<v Speaker 2>with She's not with that other man, the like investigator.

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<v Speaker 1>The private investigator. I believe she still is. Yes, Oh okay,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not living together. I mean, of course she's now

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<v Speaker 1>living with Roy. Yeah, but I believe that they're still together.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>There's not a whole lot of documentation exactly on like

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<v Speaker 1>when their relationship ended or how long it lasted, but

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<v Speaker 1>it seems like, you know, they dated for a while. Still.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, that can't be going well if she's like

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<v Speaker 2>just moved back in with her ex y, I can't

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<v Speaker 2>see that going overly.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, she might not be with him anymore. It's kind

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<v Speaker 1>of hard to tell, okay. Now, disturbing calls were also

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<v Speaker 1>starting to come again, all from the same voice. This time,

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<v Speaker 1>the caller described in graphic detail exactly how he planned

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<v Speaker 1>to kill her. Now, after two months, Cindy realized that

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<v Speaker 1>moving back in with Roy hadn't made her any safer

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<v Speaker 1>at all. If anything, it had proven that whoever was

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<v Speaker 1>stalking her wasn't just some bitter x it was someone

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<v Speaker 1>who would follow her no matter where she went. So

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<v Speaker 1>by this point she had moved four times in less

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<v Speaker 1>than a year, and still the stalker found her every

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<v Speaker 1>single time she moved. Cindy followed the police's advice. She

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<v Speaker 1>kept her private information locked down, only sharing her whereabouts

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<v Speaker 1>with close family, and yet it didn't seem to matter.

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<v Speaker 1>No matter where she went, she wasn't safe, and this

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<v Speaker 1>stalker would find her. As summer approached, Cindy was a

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<v Speaker 1>shell of her former self. The stress, the fear, the

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<v Speaker 1>constant moving was wearing down on her. In an effort

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<v Speaker 1>to help, Roy paid for Cindy to go take a

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<v Speaker 1>trip out of the country and visit her brother in Karta.

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<v Speaker 1>He hoped that a break from all this might help

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<v Speaker 1>her fee feel normal once again, and even if it

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<v Speaker 1>was just for a little while. Right, and for the

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<v Speaker 1>first time in months, Cindy finally felt safe. There were

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<v Speaker 1>no calls, no letters, no threats. She could only just

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<v Speaker 1>begin to start breathing again. That relief, that weight off

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<v Speaker 1>her shoulders.

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<v Speaker 2>That would be an amazing feeling.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she wasn't constantly looking back behind her, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>worrying about her safety. But unfortunately that piece didn't last.

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<v Speaker 1>When she returned home, she found a note waiting for

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<v Speaker 1>her that read quote, welcome back, death, blood, hate, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 1>It was sloppier than the previous threats, almost as if

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<v Speaker 1>even her stalker was kind of getting tired of the situation.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. But Cindy wasn't the same woman who had left.

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<v Speaker 1>She was done waiting like a sitting duck. She decided

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<v Speaker 1>she was going to take action on this situation. She

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<v Speaker 1>painted her car a new color so it wouldn't be recognizable.

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<v Speaker 1>She changed her hairstyle, She started carrying a portable panic button,

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<v Speaker 1>oil and pepper spray everywhere she went. Anything that she

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<v Speaker 1>could do to protect herself or change the situation.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, go, Cindy, YEP.

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<v Speaker 1>And most importantly, she now hired the private investigator. Sorry,

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<v Speaker 1>before it wasn't a private investigator, it was an RCMP member.

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<v Speaker 1>The private investigator is now being hired Ozzie Kubat. Now

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<v Speaker 1>Ozzie was looking into the case. Cindy no longer trusted

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<v Speaker 1>the police to help her, so she took matters again

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<v Speaker 1>into her own hands. Right but despite her best efforts,

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<v Speaker 1>the stalker kept finding ways to reach her. These letters

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<v Speaker 1>started arriving at her workplace as well. Cindy tried to

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<v Speaker 1>keep calm and assure her coworkers it was just a prank,

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<v Speaker 1>she said. She wasn't worried because as long as she's

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<v Speaker 1>around other people, you know, she's safe. She's fine. But

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<v Speaker 1>as the threats crept closer to her workplace, she started

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<v Speaker 1>realizing just how much of her life was at risk.

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<v Speaker 1>Then these threats, of course, became more physical. That fall,

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<v Speaker 1>Cindy came home to find a dead cat on her

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<v Speaker 1>front porch. A note was placed behind it that said

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<v Speaker 1>You're next. It was the first of three dead cats

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<v Speaker 1>that would be left on her property.

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<v Speaker 2>What the shit? What are the cats have to do

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<v Speaker 2>with this?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah? Who knows. Two weeks after finding that dead cat.

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<v Speaker 1>Her garden, which was like her only source of stress

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<v Speaker 1>relief at the time, was completely destroyed. When she went

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<v Speaker 1>to the police, they still had nothing. Once again, the

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<v Speaker 1>RCMP circled back to the same question, Could Roy be

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<v Speaker 1>the one behind all of this? Could he be the

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<v Speaker 1>one who's actually, you know, stalking his ex and causing

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<v Speaker 1>these issues. Cindy was as firm as always, No, she said,

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<v Speaker 1>Roy wasn't capable of this. It has to be someone else.

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<v Speaker 1>But her private journals, within them, in Cindy's own words,

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<v Speaker 1>they seemed to tell a different story. In one journal.

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<v Speaker 1>In one entry, she wrote about how during their marriage,

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<v Speaker 1>Roy had deliberately destroyed the garden that she she kept

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<v Speaker 1>at their home, a garden that of course meant the

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<v Speaker 1>world to her. And now with her current stalker ripping

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<v Speaker 1>apart her garden in the new place, it's kind of

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<v Speaker 1>hard not to see the parallel for sure, right it

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<v Speaker 1>almost felt like a signature that Roy was leaving behind,

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<v Speaker 1>taunting her if you may.

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<v Speaker 2>And don't mess with people's gardens, that is that is brutal,

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<v Speaker 2>no kidding, I would be freaking pissed.

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<v Speaker 1>In November of nineteen eighty three, Patrick McBride who was

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<v Speaker 1>the RCMP officer that she was seeing, stopped by Cindy's

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<v Speaker 1>house and discovered yet another threatening note left in her porch.

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<v Speaker 1>That same week, two more dead cats were found in

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<v Speaker 1>the yard, each one accompanying by another sinister message. The

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<v Speaker 1>harassment was relentless, and it escalated almost weekly, though never

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<v Speaker 1>quite reaching the same level as a physical attack Cindy

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<v Speaker 1>had endured earlier that year. When police asked Cindy why

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<v Speaker 1>she thought the stalker hadn't made another direct attempt at

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<v Speaker 1>her life and was now resorting to these note threats

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<v Speaker 1>in the phone calls and these sort of things again

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<v Speaker 1>instead of, you know, actually at her, right, she told

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<v Speaker 1>them she believed that this person didn't actually want to

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<v Speaker 1>kill her outright. Instead, she believed that they wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>scare her to death.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, I mean, how would she even sleep, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>at night?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think I could, Yeah, with all that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of harassment, and like how it's escalating and how serious

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<v Speaker 1>it's getting, I don't know if I could.

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<v Speaker 2>No.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, that explanation left investigators scratching their heads. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>why would someone want to scare her to death or whatever? Right?

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<v Speaker 1>And even some of Cindy's closest friends were starting to

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<v Speaker 1>question her story. At first, her loved ones had been

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<v Speaker 1>overwhelmingly supportive, but after a year of these bizarre incidents,

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<v Speaker 1>many of which seemed almost too perfectly timed, doubted or

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<v Speaker 1>doubts started to creep in. Even Ousie Kabban, the private

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<v Speaker 1>investigator Cindy had hired, couldn't shake the feeling that something

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't just adding up in this situation. Every threatening call

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<v Speaker 1>came when Cindy was alone, whether police tapped her foot

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<v Speaker 1>or not, like the calls were too short to trace

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<v Speaker 1>when that happened right. Every time the porch lights were

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<v Speaker 1>smashed or her windows were broken, there was no evidence

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<v Speaker 1>left behind, no fingerprints or footprints, and no one like

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<v Speaker 1>no one suspicious was spotted in the area either. Most

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<v Speaker 1>in settling of all, every time Cindy moved, her stalker

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<v Speaker 1>somehow got her new address almost immediately, even even though

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<v Speaker 1>she kept that information strictly within her immediate family. Cindy

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<v Speaker 1>knew people were losing faith in her story. She could

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<v Speaker 1>feel it the way condolences were being replaced with, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>side eye and polite but skeptical smiles like oh yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>oh that sucks.

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<v Speaker 2>Stuff, right, that's not a good feeling.

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<v Speaker 1>The worst part was knowing some people believed she was

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<v Speaker 1>making the whole thing up. Now Kaban the private investigator,

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<v Speaker 1>He tried to stay supportive, but even he told Cindy

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<v Speaker 1>that if she wanted this help, he needed actual proof,

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<v Speaker 1>something hard, something undeniable, something tangible, you know, and that

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<v Speaker 1>he gave her a two way radio to carry, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>at all times while she's home alone. When something happens,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, that way she could immediately call for help.

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<v Speaker 1>So at first the radio seemed like it was just

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<v Speaker 1>mostly a formality, but command didn't expect much to come

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<v Speaker 1>of it, sort of thing. But on January thirtieth, nineteen

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<v Speaker 1>eighty four, everything changed. Late that night, he was jolted

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<v Speaker 1>awake by a strange noise. It was crackling through the radio.

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<v Speaker 1>Without hesitation, he jumped into his car and drove straight

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<v Speaker 1>to Cindy's house. When he got inside, he found her

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<v Speaker 1>collapsed face down in the hallway with a pairing knife

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<v Speaker 1>stabbed straight through her hand, pinning a note.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh whoa okay.

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<v Speaker 1>The note was made just like before from cutout magazine

256
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<v Speaker 1>letters and read quote, now you must die.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh that's really, really, really alarming.

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<v Speaker 1>As he knelt down beside her, Cindy slowly started to

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<v Speaker 1>come too. Groggy and terrified. She told him the same

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<v Speaker 1>chilling story she would later repeat to police. She said

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<v Speaker 1>she heard someone outside. When she went to check, a

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<v Speaker 1>man forced his way in and attacked her. He struck

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<v Speaker 1>her in the head with something heavy, leaving her dazed

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<v Speaker 1>and barely conscious. While she drifted in and out, she

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<v Speaker 1>remembered feeling a needle jabbing into her arm. WHOA, Now

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<v Speaker 1>she was sure that she was injected with something that

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<v Speaker 1>knocked her out completely. Uh huh, But just like last time,

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<v Speaker 1>the evidence didn't back up her story.

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<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, because it's kind of odd that they wouldn't

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<v Speaker 2>have just done it then and there.

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<v Speaker 1>Agreed right now. To me, it almost seems like that

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<v Speaker 1>note isn't to her, it's like to someone else, right,

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<v Speaker 1>Because why would someone come into the house and attack

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<v Speaker 1>an individual and then leave a note for you that says,

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<v Speaker 1>now you must die. Why wouldn't they just tell you

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<v Speaker 1>because they're right there. Why wouldn't they just kill you

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<v Speaker 1>because they're right there? That note is almost like forced

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<v Speaker 1>someone else to show, like, hey, someone's trying to kill me.

279
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<v Speaker 1>You know, almost like a freight fake breadcrumb trail. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>toxicology tests came back, and they came back completely clear.

281
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<v Speaker 1>There were no drugs in cindy system. In fact, there

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<v Speaker 1>weren't even any puncture marks in her arms where she

283
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<v Speaker 1>claimed needle went in. And once again, there were no

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<v Speaker 1>signs of forced entry anywhere in the house. The whole

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<v Speaker 1>thing just, I mean, as I was kind of talking,

286
00:15:27.000 --> 00:15:27.879
<v Speaker 1>felt staged.

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00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:30.600
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, yeah, that seems really weird. Did she have

288
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<v Speaker 2>a big bump on her head?

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<v Speaker 1>Uh, I'm not too sure. Actually, I'm not sure if

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<v Speaker 1>she had a big bump or anything, but just things

291
00:15:37.799 --> 00:15:38.679
<v Speaker 1>didn't quite add up.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no kidding.

293
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<v Speaker 1>Now, this time, though, Cindy gave the police something new.

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<v Speaker 1>She provided a sketch of her attacker based on, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the brief moments that she had seen his face. Now,

296
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:51.440
<v Speaker 1>whether the sketch was accurate or not is anyone's guests,

297
00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:55.279
<v Speaker 1>especially since Cindy insisted she already knew the exact exact

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<v Speaker 1>person who was stalking her because she recognized them from

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<v Speaker 1>the other attack, right, yeah, or she still refused to

300
00:16:01.279 --> 00:16:04.440
<v Speaker 1>name them, But at this point Cindy could help. The

301
00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:07.840
<v Speaker 1>walls closing in The police obviously weren't believing her, and

302
00:16:07.879 --> 00:16:09.759
<v Speaker 1>her friends were losing trust as well, and even the

303
00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:15.320
<v Speaker 1>private investigator was he was not having his full investment.

304
00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.320
<v Speaker 1>His doubts were definitely there. So she finally gave the

305
00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.559
<v Speaker 1>answer that you know, they seemed to be waiting for.

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00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:24.879
<v Speaker 1>She told them she believed her ex husband, Roy Makepeace,

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00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.120
<v Speaker 1>was the one behind everything.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, so she's changed her tune.

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00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:33.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, after all that stalking, the attacks, the harassment, and

310
00:16:33.720 --> 00:16:38.360
<v Speaker 1>her defending her ex husband. She saying Roy is the

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00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:41.879
<v Speaker 1>one who's behind it, and she believes that it's his

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00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:45.360
<v Speaker 1>way of punishing her for leaving him and trying to

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<v Speaker 1>force her back into his life.

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00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:49.559
<v Speaker 2>That makes no sense though, because she even went about

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00:16:49.799 --> 00:16:51.360
<v Speaker 2>moving in with him at some point.

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<v Speaker 1>So I just like, I don't like that exactly. Well,

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00:16:54.320 --> 00:16:57.080
<v Speaker 1>that's the big problem with all this. None of the story,

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00:16:57.399 --> 00:17:01.720
<v Speaker 1>none of the incidents, none of the stalking doesn't add up,

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00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:02.919
<v Speaker 1>and none of it makes sense.

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<v Speaker 2>But okay, Also, I guess maybe she was thinking, if

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<v Speaker 2>I move in there, I'll be like safer, right, because

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it kind of makes sense going back, right,

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00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:16.839
<v Speaker 2>and that happens a lot. But I don't know. Yeah,

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00:17:16.839 --> 00:17:18.160
<v Speaker 2>this is confusing as shit.

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<v Speaker 1>But you would think that at least for a little while,

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<v Speaker 1>those things would stop.

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<v Speaker 2>When she was living there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Now she made this confession in nineteen eighty four on

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00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.519
<v Speaker 1>Valentine's Day. Actually just a little like tidbit of information.

330
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:38.079
<v Speaker 1>So it's an interesting, little uninteresting date, an interesting date.

331
00:17:38.160 --> 00:17:41.880
<v Speaker 1>But I digress. Now, the police brought Roy make Peace

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00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:44.480
<v Speaker 1>back in for questioning once again. You know, they pressed

333
00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:47.799
<v Speaker 1>him both in these accusations, and just like every other time,

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00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.359
<v Speaker 1>Roy denied everything that they were bringing up to him.

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00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:56.039
<v Speaker 1>He's just like, Nope, not me. It's messed up. What's

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00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:59.000
<v Speaker 1>going on. I'm not involved. You got the wrong guy

337
00:17:59.079 --> 00:17:59.519
<v Speaker 1>sort of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:05.359
<v Speaker 1>Frustrated and desperate to protect his daughter, Otto decided to

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00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:08.480
<v Speaker 1>confront Roy himself. Now. Auto believed that if he could

341
00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:10.599
<v Speaker 1>sit down with Roy face to face, maybe he could

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00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.680
<v Speaker 1>finally get him to slip up and emit something right.

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00:18:14.640 --> 00:18:16.480
<v Speaker 1>To make sure he had proof, Auto even wore a

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00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:19.920
<v Speaker 1>hidden wire to record the conversation. Now, during the meeting,

345
00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:24.440
<v Speaker 1>Otto didn't hold back. He told Roy in no no

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<v Speaker 1>uncertain terms sorry, that he wasn't going to be allowed

347
00:18:28.359 --> 00:18:31.640
<v Speaker 1>anywhere near Cindy anymore, and he outright accused him of

348
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:36.039
<v Speaker 1>being behind the whole campaign of threats and harassment. Roy

349
00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:40.920
<v Speaker 1>didn't confess. Instead, he offered up a wild theory of

350
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<v Speaker 1>his own. He claimed Cindy maybe being targeted by the mafia. Now,

351
00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:51.759
<v Speaker 1>according to Roy, Cindy had somehow maybe crossed the wrong

352
00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:54.200
<v Speaker 1>people while working at the hospital, maybe getting involved with

353
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:57.559
<v Speaker 1>a child from a mob connected family. Whatever. He was

354
00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.640
<v Speaker 1>so convinced he even wrote Auto a six page letters

355
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.400
<v Speaker 1>laying out his whole theory and begging Otto to push

356
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:06.920
<v Speaker 1>the police to investigate it. In the months that followed,

357
00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:10.480
<v Speaker 1>the phone calls kept coming. Cindy was receiving new obscene

358
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:13.079
<v Speaker 1>calls and threatening notes almost every single day, but just

359
00:19:13.119 --> 00:19:15.599
<v Speaker 1>like before, the calls were too short for police to trace.

360
00:19:16.519 --> 00:19:16.680
<v Speaker 2>Now.

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00:19:16.680 --> 00:19:20.599
<v Speaker 1>At one point, RCMP officers decided to surveil Cindy's house.

362
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:25.559
<v Speaker 1>They wanted harp proof that she wasn't behind the harassment herself. Right, So,

363
00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:28.640
<v Speaker 1>only Cindy and the officers involved knew about the operation.

364
00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:32.519
<v Speaker 1>So in theory, if someone outside of law enforcement was responsible,

365
00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.759
<v Speaker 1>that have no way of knowing that they were being watched, right,

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00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:39.200
<v Speaker 1>and the police could catch this individual red handed. It

367
00:19:39.200 --> 00:19:43.799
<v Speaker 1>says many as fourteen officers took part in the surveillance. Right,

368
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.759
<v Speaker 1>So we have people going in shifts different times, up

369
00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:49.759
<v Speaker 1>to fourteen different officers. But during all of those shifts,

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<v Speaker 1>not a single suspicious person came near the house, No

371
00:19:53.640 --> 00:19:58.519
<v Speaker 1>strange cars drove by, no figures sneaking around. Nothing. Yet

372
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<v Speaker 1>every time the officers packed up and left, guess what happened? Seriously,

373
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<v Speaker 1>Cindy immediately called the police, claiming she'd received another call

374
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<v Speaker 1>or found a new note every single time.

375
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<v Speaker 2>Dang. Okay, But also if there is someone, I mean,

376
00:20:20.359 --> 00:20:23.200
<v Speaker 2>they would know, right if like when the police did

377
00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:26.480
<v Speaker 2>pack up, But then the police you know, would also

378
00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:30.519
<v Speaker 2>see them in their car watching or whatever. Exactly, Okay,

379
00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:32.480
<v Speaker 2>And it's not like it can be a neighbor anymore

380
00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:36.519
<v Speaker 2>at this point too, if she's has relocated so many times.

381
00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:40.039
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, I'm very I'm very confused now.

382
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:42.279
<v Speaker 1>Cindy and her family insisted though this was part of

383
00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:44.480
<v Speaker 1>the stalker's plan to make her look like she was

384
00:20:44.559 --> 00:20:48.559
<v Speaker 1>like crying wolf and going crazy, right, And I mean,

385
00:20:48.599 --> 00:20:50.920
<v Speaker 1>there was no way anyone could have known exactly when

386
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:53.880
<v Speaker 1>surveillance had ended or started unless they were part of

387
00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:58.799
<v Speaker 1>the operation itself or someone inside Cindy's own circle knew.

388
00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:01.839
<v Speaker 2>Okay, within the operation itself, that kind of makes sense.

389
00:21:02.000 --> 00:21:05.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you have at least Cindy or a close

390
00:21:05.559 --> 00:21:10.640
<v Speaker 1>family member or an officer part of the surveillance team.

391
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:13.880
<v Speaker 1>At this point, the police were convinced though Cindy was

392
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.480
<v Speaker 1>the one orchestrating the whole thing herself. When they made

393
00:21:17.480 --> 00:21:20.440
<v Speaker 1>that clear to her, Cindy withdrew even more convinced that

394
00:21:20.480 --> 00:21:24.279
<v Speaker 1>no one believed her and that she was truly alone. Then,

395
00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:28.039
<v Speaker 1>on June eighteenth, nineteen eighty four, Cindy called Ozzie Caban,

396
00:21:28.160 --> 00:21:31.119
<v Speaker 1>the private investigator, and she was in a full blown panic.

397
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.160
<v Speaker 1>When he arrived at her house. She was trembling and

398
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:39.480
<v Speaker 1>hiding in her garden, insisting someone had broken into her home. Now,

399
00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.759
<v Speaker 1>Caban led the way inside and Cindy was trailing behind him.

400
00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:45.799
<v Speaker 1>They searched the house room by room, eventually making their

401
00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:48.559
<v Speaker 1>way into the basement, where they found Cindy's dog, Heidi,

402
00:21:48.680 --> 00:21:52.680
<v Speaker 1>huddling in the corner. Now, the poor dog was visibly terrified,

403
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:55.319
<v Speaker 1>and she had a noose tied around her neck. What

404
00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:59.000
<v Speaker 1>Heidi had clearly been abused, and she was so shaken

405
00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:02.440
<v Speaker 1>and cowered in the Courrner. She would not even want

406
00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:05.079
<v Speaker 1>to approach Kaban or her owner, Cindy.

407
00:22:05.359 --> 00:22:07.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh the poor baby.

408
00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.559
<v Speaker 1>Now attached to this noose was a note reading happy Birthday,

409
00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:14.880
<v Speaker 1>along with several pornographic photos.

410
00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:15.240
<v Speaker 2>Cool.

411
00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:19.839
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Over the next few weeks, calls, letters and threats continued,

412
00:22:20.039 --> 00:22:22.599
<v Speaker 1>and another dead cat was left on Cindy's left for

413
00:22:22.599 --> 00:22:26.559
<v Speaker 1>Cindy to find. But then July first, something even stranger happened.

414
00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:30.079
<v Speaker 1>Two men showed up at her house posing as police officers.

415
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:34.400
<v Speaker 1>Cindy immediately knew something was off. After everything she'd been through,

416
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:37.519
<v Speaker 1>she was on pretty much a first name basis with

417
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:42.119
<v Speaker 1>almost every single local officer, right h these two were

418
00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:46.079
<v Speaker 1>total strangers to her. Before she even considered letting them inside,

419
00:22:46.119 --> 00:22:48.440
<v Speaker 1>Cindy told them that she was going to radio Ozzie Caban,

420
00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:52.559
<v Speaker 1>the private investigator, to confirm their identify identities. Without saying

421
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:56.160
<v Speaker 1>saying a word, both of the men bolted from her porch.

422
00:22:56.920 --> 00:22:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay.

423
00:22:58.759 --> 00:23:01.480
<v Speaker 1>Now, like so many incidents before, there was no evidence

424
00:23:01.519 --> 00:23:04.119
<v Speaker 1>to back up this story. This was just Cindy's words.

425
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:04.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

426
00:23:04.559 --> 00:23:08.960
<v Speaker 1>There was no security footage, no witnesses, nothing. Two days later,

427
00:23:09.000 --> 00:23:11.759
<v Speaker 1>on July third, Cindy checked in with Caban again over

428
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:13.400
<v Speaker 1>the two a radio, letting him know that she was

429
00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:16.680
<v Speaker 1>going to take Heidi for a walk. Now he worried

430
00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:18.440
<v Speaker 1>about her safety, and you know, he warned her not

431
00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:21.000
<v Speaker 1>to go outside, but Cindy insisted she needed some fresh air.

432
00:23:22.079 --> 00:23:25.400
<v Speaker 1>Three and a half hours later, a stranger a mile

433
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:27.920
<v Speaker 1>away from her house answered a knock at their door

434
00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:33.200
<v Speaker 1>to find Cindy standing there, battered and disoriented, with black

435
00:23:33.319 --> 00:23:37.599
<v Speaker 1>nylon stocking tied tightly around her neck. The moment the

436
00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:43.400
<v Speaker 1>door opened, Cindy collapsed on his front porch. Cindy was

437
00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:46.039
<v Speaker 1>able to speak, and she was giving a chilling account.

438
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:50.119
<v Speaker 1>While walking Hidie, she was approached by a green van

439
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:53.680
<v Speaker 1>that pulled up beside her. Inside the van were a

440
00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:56.240
<v Speaker 1>bearded man and a blonde woman, both of whom she

441
00:23:56.279 --> 00:23:59.160
<v Speaker 1>claimed she had never seen before. The man was asking

442
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:02.680
<v Speaker 1>for directions, and after that, Cindy said, everything went blank.

443
00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:06.839
<v Speaker 1>She was immediately rushed to the hospital, and after being found,

444
00:24:06.880 --> 00:24:12.640
<v Speaker 1>the doctors noted two needle marks on her arm. However,

445
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:15.680
<v Speaker 1>when toxicology results came back, the only substance found in

446
00:24:15.680 --> 00:24:19.200
<v Speaker 1>her system was a prescription antidepressant that she recently started taking.

447
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:23.039
<v Speaker 1>There were no traces of sedatives, tranquilizers, or any other

448
00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:25.400
<v Speaker 1>drug that might explain the blackout.

449
00:24:25.880 --> 00:24:31.559
<v Speaker 2>Hmmm, gosh, this is just getting more and more confusing.

450
00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:35.799
<v Speaker 2>It's a kind of like, I don't know. You want

451
00:24:35.799 --> 00:24:38.720
<v Speaker 2>to believe her, like you really do, oh one percent,

452
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:42.240
<v Speaker 2>but then I don't know. Yeah, it's just so weird

453
00:24:42.279 --> 00:24:45.000
<v Speaker 2>that this it's been going on this long, I guess,

454
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:49.440
<v Speaker 2>and that nothing has been able to be pinpointed. I

455
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:51.519
<v Speaker 2>don't know. It is very confusing.

456
00:24:51.880 --> 00:24:53.880
<v Speaker 1>I'm very conflicted in this because, like you say, you

457
00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:56.880
<v Speaker 1>want to believe her, Yeah, at the same time, how

458
00:24:56.920 --> 00:24:58.920
<v Speaker 1>do you believe her? You know what I mean?

459
00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:02.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? So, but I mean she would also be paying

460
00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:06.240
<v Speaker 2>the private investigator, right, so she's like putting money into

461
00:25:06.279 --> 00:25:06.920
<v Speaker 2>this herself.

462
00:25:07.079 --> 00:25:08.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, definitely.

463
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh ah.

464
00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:13.000
<v Speaker 1>Now, while Cindy was being treated, something strange happened. The

465
00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:16.440
<v Speaker 1>hospital receptionist informed police that she received a suspicious phone

466
00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.799
<v Speaker 1>call earlier that day. The caller had asked oddly specific

467
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:23.359
<v Speaker 1>questions about hospital's security procedures, which left her feeling a

468
00:25:23.400 --> 00:25:25.880
<v Speaker 1>little uneasy, as if the person was on the like

469
00:25:25.960 --> 00:25:27.440
<v Speaker 1>on the other end, was planning something.

470
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

471
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Now, police decided to play a recording that they had

472
00:25:31.519 --> 00:25:33.920
<v Speaker 1>of Roy make peace his voice to see if he

473
00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:36.440
<v Speaker 1>was maybe the one who had called. While the receptionist

474
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.079
<v Speaker 1>couldn't be one hundred percent sure, she said that there

475
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:42.759
<v Speaker 1>was a strong possibility that Roy was the man who

476
00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:47.160
<v Speaker 1>had called. Hoping to dig deeper into Cindy's trauma, Ozzie Cobban,

477
00:25:47.240 --> 00:25:50.880
<v Speaker 1>the private investigator, suggested that she try hypno therapy now.

478
00:25:50.920 --> 00:25:54.160
<v Speaker 1>His theory was that if Cindy's conscious mind couldn't recall

479
00:25:54.240 --> 00:25:58.200
<v Speaker 1>useful details about her stalker, maybe her subconscious could, which

480
00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:02.359
<v Speaker 1>is often what hypnotherapy has used for. The first therapist

481
00:26:02.440 --> 00:26:06.079
<v Speaker 1>Cindy saw, however, determined she was too emotionally fragile for

482
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:11.319
<v Speaker 1>hypnotherapy to be reliable. The session took a bizarre turn

483
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:13.839
<v Speaker 1>when Cindy suddenly claimed that she had witnessed a double

484
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:18.680
<v Speaker 1>murder at some point in her life. The therapist, concerned

485
00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:21.799
<v Speaker 1>about her mental state, decided, yet, we're not doing hypnotherapy.

486
00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:24.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, fair enough, I guess yeah.

487
00:26:24.920 --> 00:26:27.519
<v Speaker 1>So Caban wasn't ready to give up. She encouraged Cindy

488
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:30.359
<v Speaker 1>to try another hypnotherapist in a new year, still hoping

489
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:33.480
<v Speaker 1>they could unlock useful memories about her stalker now. During

490
00:26:33.519 --> 00:26:36.720
<v Speaker 1>the second session, Cindy repeated her claim about this double murder,

491
00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:39.920
<v Speaker 1>but this time she went into a lot more detail.

492
00:26:40.960 --> 00:26:45.759
<v Speaker 1>She told the therapist and Caban and the police that

493
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:48.440
<v Speaker 1>back in nineteen eighty one, while still married to Roy,

494
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.680
<v Speaker 1>they had gone sailing near Thornhambee Island. Cindy hated those trips.

495
00:26:52.720 --> 00:26:55.559
<v Speaker 1>Of course, we already discussed how she was afraid of water,

496
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:56.160
<v Speaker 1>terrified of.

497
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:58.359
<v Speaker 2>Drowning, right, but he kind of made her go anyway.

498
00:26:58.599 --> 00:27:01.559
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And so since she didn't want to go, Roy

499
00:27:01.680 --> 00:27:03.599
<v Speaker 1>was in a bad mood that day even though she

500
00:27:03.680 --> 00:27:09.000
<v Speaker 1>went right, so her ear toil ability, you know, not

501
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:11.279
<v Speaker 1>being wanting to be on the water, just continued to

502
00:27:11.319 --> 00:27:14.000
<v Speaker 1>send Roy more down a spiral on that day, being

503
00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:18.000
<v Speaker 1>more and more infuriated, and according to Cindy, he eventually snapped.

504
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:22.359
<v Speaker 1>She described how Roy murdered a young couple right in

505
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:25.079
<v Speaker 1>front of her and hacked their bodies up with an

506
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:29.640
<v Speaker 1>axe and tossed the remains overboard. What. Yeah, she claimed,

507
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:33.880
<v Speaker 1>when Roy caught her watching, he smeared blood across her

508
00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:35.839
<v Speaker 1>face using one of the victims severed limbs.

509
00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:38.079
<v Speaker 2>What the actual shit?

510
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:41.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a horrific story and a massive claim, but

511
00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:43.440
<v Speaker 1>there is one problem.

512
00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:45.319
<v Speaker 2>And she's just deciding to share this now.

513
00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:47.759
<v Speaker 1>But okay, well yeah, but the biggest problem is exactly

514
00:27:47.799 --> 00:27:50.680
<v Speaker 1>that none of this is true. None of this happened.

515
00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, because I'm just confused too. If they were sailing,

516
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.160
<v Speaker 2>why the fuck is this random young couple with them?

517
00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:56.960
<v Speaker 2>And I don't know?

518
00:27:57.119 --> 00:28:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, Okay, Well, Roy and said did go sailing

519
00:28:01.000 --> 00:28:04.480
<v Speaker 1>near Thornaby Island that year before they separated, but they

520
00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:07.880
<v Speaker 1>weren't alone. Cindy's sister was with them the entire time,

521
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:11.599
<v Speaker 1>and she told investigators that absolutely nothing unusual happened on

522
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:15.480
<v Speaker 1>that trip. To top it all off, police scoured records

523
00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:17.599
<v Speaker 1>and found no reports of any missing young couple in

524
00:28:17.599 --> 00:28:20.319
<v Speaker 1>the area, nor were there any records of dismembered body

525
00:28:20.359 --> 00:28:21.400
<v Speaker 1>members washing ashore.

526
00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Wow that is weird.

527
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:27.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the whole incident appeared to be either a false

528
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:32.000
<v Speaker 1>memory accidentally implanted during maybe hypnotherapy, or delusions Cindy had

529
00:28:32.039 --> 00:28:33.319
<v Speaker 1>come to fully believe.

530
00:28:35.160 --> 00:28:38.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, okay, this just keeps getting weirder and weirder.

531
00:28:39.000 --> 00:28:42.559
<v Speaker 1>Cindy's mental state continued to deteriorate, and in late June

532
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:46.000
<v Speaker 1>of nineteen eighty five, she was involuntarily committed to a

533
00:28:46.039 --> 00:28:50.839
<v Speaker 1>psychiatric facility after a prescription drug overdose. But initially it

534
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:53.799
<v Speaker 1>looked like a suicide attempt. Cindy later insisted that it hasn't.

535
00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:56.640
<v Speaker 1>It wasn't you know, She's never meant to kill herself.

536
00:28:56.640 --> 00:28:58.400
<v Speaker 1>It was just kind of an accident or whatever.

537
00:28:58.519 --> 00:28:58.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay.

538
00:28:59.359 --> 00:29:02.519
<v Speaker 1>When she was Cindy became more determined than ever to

539
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:06.000
<v Speaker 1>prove Roy was the one behind everything. She even asked

540
00:29:06.000 --> 00:29:08.880
<v Speaker 1>police to tap her phone so they could catch him

541
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.920
<v Speaker 1>in the act. Now, I'm sure they already had her

542
00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:13.640
<v Speaker 1>phone tapped at this point and they were just like, Okay, yeah, sure,

543
00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:17.359
<v Speaker 1>let's do that. But I could be wrong.

544
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:18.319
<v Speaker 2>Now.

545
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:21.079
<v Speaker 1>Her belief in this guilt had only solidified after her

546
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:25.000
<v Speaker 1>recovery or recovered memory of the double murder, and now

547
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:27.680
<v Speaker 1>she was convinced Roy was the one who orchestrated the

548
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:29.960
<v Speaker 1>threats to call the attack, all of this sort of thing.

549
00:29:30.359 --> 00:29:32.720
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I just said this thought though your mind. Ken

550
00:29:32.759 --> 00:29:35.000
<v Speaker 2>play tricks on you, especially if you're in like Highley's

551
00:29:35.240 --> 00:29:39.160
<v Speaker 2>stressful situations, right, Yes, it can. So it could almost

552
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:43.839
<v Speaker 2>be making her come up with this, you know, because

553
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.599
<v Speaker 2>she thinks she's like thinking it's Roy, and then making

554
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:49.759
<v Speaker 2>him seem like even more of a terrible person in

555
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:50.720
<v Speaker 2>her mind, and.

556
00:29:50.920 --> 00:29:55.000
<v Speaker 1>Yep, there is a high possiblity, high possibility of that

557
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.839
<v Speaker 1>being the situation, which we do talk about a little

558
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:01.920
<v Speaker 1>bit later. Okay, Cindy called Roy herself, knowing that the

559
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:05.720
<v Speaker 1>police were listening into the call, and unleashed everything she believed.

560
00:30:05.960 --> 00:30:08.279
<v Speaker 1>She told him she remembered him killing the couple on

561
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:11.440
<v Speaker 1>the boat, She accused him of abusing her throughout their marriage,

562
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:16.359
<v Speaker 1>and insisted he was the mastermind behind her stalking. Roy

563
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:21.839
<v Speaker 1>was stunned. He denied everything, the murders, the threats, the abuse,

564
00:30:21.880 --> 00:30:24.519
<v Speaker 1>and he told Cindy that she was delusional and had

565
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:27.480
<v Speaker 1>become obsessed with blaming him for things that he had

566
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:28.440
<v Speaker 1>nothing to do with.

567
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:32.279
<v Speaker 2>Well, also, if he was, you know, it seems helping

568
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.960
<v Speaker 2>in some ways. And then he gets this call, he's

569
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:37.319
<v Speaker 2>probably just like, what the actual fuck like.

570
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:41.279
<v Speaker 1>Just pissed exactly. And so as this conversation escalated, Cindy

571
00:30:41.359 --> 00:30:44.920
<v Speaker 1>swore she would expose him to gather proof, no matter

572
00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:48.559
<v Speaker 1>what it took, and Roy was exhausted, fed up, and

573
00:30:48.599 --> 00:30:50.400
<v Speaker 1>he finally cut her off, and he told her not

574
00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:53.559
<v Speaker 1>to contact him again unless she planned to take him

575
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:56.759
<v Speaker 1>to court. Okay, so he's just like I'm done.

576
00:30:57.079 --> 00:30:59.599
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, final straw for sure.

577
00:30:59.759 --> 00:31:03.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So, in the weeks that followed, police decided to

578
00:31:03.400 --> 00:31:06.440
<v Speaker 1>put Roy under surveillance. They wanted to see if he

579
00:31:06.480 --> 00:31:09.240
<v Speaker 1>would slip up, if he was the one responsible, if

580
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:13.599
<v Speaker 1>his movements lined up with harassing phone calls, the letters, anything, right,

581
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:20.319
<v Speaker 1>But Roy's life was rather ordinary and honestly kind of boring.

582
00:31:21.000 --> 00:31:23.000
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't quite as entertaining to watch him.

583
00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.839
<v Speaker 1>No, he went to work, ran errands, and didn't do

584
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:30.759
<v Speaker 1>a single thing that raised any suspicions. After an entire

585
00:31:30.799 --> 00:31:33.480
<v Speaker 1>week of watching him, they called off the surveillance. There

586
00:31:33.559 --> 00:31:38.000
<v Speaker 1>was nothing. On August fifth, nineteen eighty five, Cindy called

587
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:42.039
<v Speaker 1>emergency services to report the next event, which was a

588
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:47.640
<v Speaker 1>fire at her home. When firefighters arrived, they found newspapers

589
00:31:47.640 --> 00:31:50.960
<v Speaker 1>scattered across the floor, clearly meant to act as kindling,

590
00:31:51.400 --> 00:31:54.519
<v Speaker 1>but the fire itself never really caught and they were

591
00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:56.480
<v Speaker 1>able to put it out rather easily before it did

592
00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:00.359
<v Speaker 1>any damage. The next day, firefighters were back once again,

593
00:32:00.440 --> 00:32:04.680
<v Speaker 1>another attempted fire, more newspapers, but still no real damage.

594
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:07.880
<v Speaker 1>Police were already starting to question whether Cindy herself was

595
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:11.160
<v Speaker 1>behind these fires. Right, there was no sign of forced entry,

596
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:14.720
<v Speaker 1>nothing out of place, no evidence that anyone had broken

597
00:32:14.839 --> 00:32:17.759
<v Speaker 1>in to start these fires or to burn the house down.

598
00:32:18.359 --> 00:32:21.279
<v Speaker 1>To investigators, it felt like these were failed fires. They

599
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:25.160
<v Speaker 1>were just warm up for something bigger to come. And

600
00:32:25.200 --> 00:32:29.440
<v Speaker 1>then on August twenty, first, the fires escalated at about

601
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:33.559
<v Speaker 1>three fifteen am, Cindy decided, oddly enough to take your

602
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:36.480
<v Speaker 1>dog hiding out for a walk at three fifteen.

603
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:38.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, yeah, that's a super odd time.

604
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:41.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, even though even the last time she went for

605
00:32:41.799 --> 00:32:44.880
<v Speaker 1>a walk didn't go very well. Right, So we have

606
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:48.119
<v Speaker 1>a super odd hour and we have her going out

607
00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:50.759
<v Speaker 1>and the walk again, when last time she got assaulted. Right,

608
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:53.599
<v Speaker 1>So while she was out, her soccer apparently saw the

609
00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:56.119
<v Speaker 1>opportunity and slipped into the house, set the fire, and

610
00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:59.279
<v Speaker 1>left once again without a trace. Now this time the

611
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:02.240
<v Speaker 1>fire actually spread, and when investigators arrived they found the

612
00:33:02.279 --> 00:33:05.559
<v Speaker 1>same setup newspapers across the floor used to help start

613
00:33:05.559 --> 00:33:09.160
<v Speaker 1>the fire. Right. The strange part, the doors in the

614
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:12.240
<v Speaker 1>home were all locked when Cindy left the home. There's

615
00:33:12.359 --> 00:33:14.119
<v Speaker 1>no sign anyone made their way in.

616
00:33:17.000 --> 00:33:22.359
<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm like, oh, man struggling here, because I'm starting

617
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:26.680
<v Speaker 2>to just, i don't know, really be skeptical as well.

618
00:33:26.920 --> 00:33:32.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, after the investigation, police determined Cindy set the fires herself.

619
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:36.279
<v Speaker 2>Well it makes sense that she would, you know, she

620
00:33:36.359 --> 00:33:39.160
<v Speaker 2>wasn't there. Yeah, and that's when it like she went

621
00:33:39.200 --> 00:33:41.720
<v Speaker 2>for a walk and her house is like in flames.

622
00:33:42.039 --> 00:33:45.599
<v Speaker 1>So now that fall. In nineteen eighty five, RCMP officer

623
00:33:45.640 --> 00:33:50.000
<v Speaker 1>Carol Halliday requested that doctor Anthony Marcus, a psychologist, conduct

624
00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:53.599
<v Speaker 1>a full evaluation on Cindy and review the case files. Now,

625
00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.759
<v Speaker 1>Halliday had long suspected that Cindy was fabricating the entire

626
00:33:56.839 --> 00:33:59.359
<v Speaker 1>ordeal and believed that many of the male officers who

627
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:02.839
<v Speaker 1>had worked with on Cindy's case, including Ozzie Coban and

628
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:06.400
<v Speaker 1>Patrick McBride, have been blinded by their attraction to her.

629
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:11.960
<v Speaker 1>To Halliday, it seemed obvious Cindy was manipulating them. After

630
00:34:11.960 --> 00:34:15.559
<v Speaker 1>reviewing her case and speaking with Cindy directly, doctor Marcus

631
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:19.519
<v Speaker 1>offered a surprising theory. He believed Cindy might be suffering

632
00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:25.760
<v Speaker 1>from disassociative identity disorder. In his opinion, Cindy was genuinely

633
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:29.960
<v Speaker 1>terrified because she believed her own story if she was

634
00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.719
<v Speaker 1>the one harming herself, Though Marcus theorized she was doing

635
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:36.800
<v Speaker 1>it in a disassociated state with no memory of her

636
00:34:36.960 --> 00:34:38.360
<v Speaker 1>own actions.

637
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:42.000
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that makes sense. And also, how good looking is

638
00:34:42.039 --> 00:34:46.400
<v Speaker 2>this woman then? If she's just able to I don't know,

639
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:49.159
<v Speaker 2>make all these police officers, I don't know.

640
00:34:49.280 --> 00:34:51.000
<v Speaker 1>I mean, don't get me wrong, Like I looked up

641
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:53.239
<v Speaker 1>her image and everything, Like she's pretty. She's a good

642
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.760
<v Speaker 1>looking woman, But I don't think she's like, you know,

643
00:34:55.840 --> 00:34:59.400
<v Speaker 1>a superdel Yeah, she's not like a temptress or anything

644
00:34:59.440 --> 00:34:59.920
<v Speaker 1>like that, you know.

645
00:35:00.000 --> 00:35:01.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, huh.

646
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:05.039
<v Speaker 1>Now. By December of nineteen eighty five, Cindy decided it

647
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:08.119
<v Speaker 1>was time for yet another fresh start. She moved to Richmond, BC,

648
00:35:08.360 --> 00:35:11.280
<v Speaker 1>hoping that putting the distance between herself and her past

649
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:14.360
<v Speaker 1>would be the answer, but the move brought no peace.

650
00:35:14.800 --> 00:35:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Now longer after settling in, she was found collapsed in

651
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:20.960
<v Speaker 1>a ditch six miles from her new home. Once again,

652
00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:23.599
<v Speaker 1>Cindy had no idea how she got there. She was bruised,

653
00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:28.239
<v Speaker 1>cut up, and barely conscious, suffering from hypothermia. Even as usual,

654
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:31.320
<v Speaker 1>there was a black nylon stocking wrapped tightly around her neck,

655
00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:33.880
<v Speaker 1>the same signature from past events.

656
00:35:34.599 --> 00:35:36.320
<v Speaker 2>You would be even tell if some of that shit

657
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:41.239
<v Speaker 2>was self inflicted, though, like the bruising and even probably

658
00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:44.199
<v Speaker 2>the way the nylon was tied and stuff. So what

659
00:35:44.280 --> 00:35:44.679
<v Speaker 2>the hell?

660
00:35:44.840 --> 00:35:47.679
<v Speaker 1>Well, and that's exactly what that doctor was saying that

661
00:35:47.719 --> 00:35:51.039
<v Speaker 1>he's there. These officers are being blinded to a degree.

662
00:35:50.760 --> 00:35:53.000
<v Speaker 2>By their attraction, right right, Okay.

663
00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:56.159
<v Speaker 1>So they're not exactly investigating like.

664
00:35:56.079 --> 00:35:59.559
<v Speaker 2>A damsel in distress, like oh my gosh, yeah, and

665
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:00.559
<v Speaker 2>they just want to help.

666
00:36:00.800 --> 00:36:04.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Now, after this latest attack, Cindy left the country

667
00:36:04.639 --> 00:36:06.559
<v Speaker 1>again to stay with her family, and just like before,

668
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:08.800
<v Speaker 1>when she was away, there were no incidents, no calls,

669
00:36:08.840 --> 00:36:12.039
<v Speaker 1>no letters, nothing. Her brother begged her to stay, to

670
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:14.760
<v Speaker 1>leave Canada behind and rebuild her life somewhere where she

671
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:17.199
<v Speaker 1>felt safe, but Cindy, she refused.

672
00:36:17.239 --> 00:36:19.360
<v Speaker 2>I agree, she should just stay with her fam.

673
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:23.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. When she returned home, her friends Agnes and Tom

674
00:36:23.079 --> 00:36:26.559
<v Speaker 1>Woodcock turned They took turns sleeping over her house to

675
00:36:26.599 --> 00:36:29.440
<v Speaker 1>try and keep her company. Cindy had stopped eating at

676
00:36:29.440 --> 00:36:32.840
<v Speaker 1>this point and was barely taking care of herself. She

677
00:36:32.960 --> 00:36:35.639
<v Speaker 1>told him more than once that she would rather be

678
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.280
<v Speaker 1>dead than keep living like this.

679
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:39.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh brutal.

680
00:36:39.280 --> 00:36:43.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. On April sixteenth, nineteen eighty six, with Agnes and

681
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:45.719
<v Speaker 1>Tom spending the night, Cindy woke up in a panic,

682
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.639
<v Speaker 1>saying she heard something downstairs. When they investigated, they found

683
00:36:49.800 --> 00:36:53.280
<v Speaker 1>another fire, this time in the basement. They tried to

684
00:36:53.280 --> 00:36:56.039
<v Speaker 1>call the fire department, only to discover that the phone

685
00:36:56.079 --> 00:36:59.559
<v Speaker 1>line had been cut. Tom ran outside to get help

686
00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:02.320
<v Speaker 1>and noticed a man standing in the street watching the flames.

687
00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:05.639
<v Speaker 1>But the second Tom tried to approach, the man took

688
00:37:05.679 --> 00:37:10.199
<v Speaker 1>off into the night. That was it for Cindy. She

689
00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:13.119
<v Speaker 1>went straight to police and made a formal statement accusing

690
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:15.639
<v Speaker 1>Roy of being behind everything.

691
00:37:15.960 --> 00:37:17.920
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, now she has another witness.

692
00:37:18.480 --> 00:37:22.559
<v Speaker 1>You know, well, he only witnessed a person standing there.

693
00:37:24.400 --> 00:37:28.880
<v Speaker 2>I guess I Well, could she have set that fire though?

694
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:32.239
<v Speaker 2>Or no? I mean I guess she could have said

695
00:37:32.239 --> 00:37:35.559
<v Speaker 2>it quietly and then and then gotten woken up in

696
00:37:35.679 --> 00:37:38.239
<v Speaker 2>like a ah kind of thing, and then that's panic.

697
00:37:38.400 --> 00:37:39.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, let me put it in this way. I

698
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.000
<v Speaker 1>don't understand. I'm not going to pretend to understand what

699
00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:45.280
<v Speaker 1>is going on, because no one does, right uh huh. Now,

700
00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:49.159
<v Speaker 1>the theory is disassociative disorder. So she does a thing,

701
00:37:49.519 --> 00:37:52.000
<v Speaker 1>doesn't remember it, and then, you know, gets in a

702
00:37:52.039 --> 00:37:56.559
<v Speaker 1>panic state. I'm gonna say, just for instant the sake

703
00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:00.400
<v Speaker 1>of looking at Devil's advocacy. What if she slept walk,

704
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:03.760
<v Speaker 1>did the fire thing, went back to bed, and then

705
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:08.239
<v Speaker 1>woke up in a panic, thinking that, like the sleepwalking

706
00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:10.199
<v Speaker 1>thing that she just did was like a nightmare, and

707
00:38:10.199 --> 00:38:12.199
<v Speaker 1>she just like, oh, this someone was down there. I

708
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:14.039
<v Speaker 1>know I heard them. It was actually hurt, you know

709
00:38:14.079 --> 00:38:14.480
<v Speaker 1>what I mean.

710
00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:17.199
<v Speaker 2>Kind of random though that this person would just be

711
00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:19.599
<v Speaker 2>outside too. That would freak me out.

712
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:22.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, what if it's just a delinquent tee or something

713
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:24.239
<v Speaker 1>like that, who's out to like spray paint some property,

714
00:38:24.360 --> 00:38:26.519
<v Speaker 1>or maybe it's someone looking to rob something, or maybe

715
00:38:26.599 --> 00:38:28.840
<v Speaker 1>like who knows, and then their approach and it's like,

716
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:31.719
<v Speaker 1>oh shit, I got to get out of here. Yeah,

717
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:35.639
<v Speaker 1>it's very honestly, it's pretty likely that you run into

718
00:38:35.719 --> 00:38:38.679
<v Speaker 1>just someone walking by at a situation like that.

719
00:38:39.800 --> 00:38:43.800
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, Maybe I have trouble believing that. I guess.

720
00:38:44.599 --> 00:38:47.039
<v Speaker 1>I'm not saying that it's a high probability, but I'm

721
00:38:47.079 --> 00:38:52.039
<v Speaker 1>saying it's definitely a situation that could occur. Now, there

722
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:55.199
<v Speaker 1>was just one major problem though, because Roy was being

723
00:38:55.639 --> 00:38:59.199
<v Speaker 1>accused of this. Right yep, Roy wasn't in the country

724
00:38:59.239 --> 00:38:59.760
<v Speaker 1>at the time.

725
00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:03.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, he.

726
00:39:03.079 --> 00:39:05.079
<v Speaker 1>Had returned to South Africa and had been there for

727
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:07.920
<v Speaker 1>actually quite some time. At this point. Police also confirmed

728
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:11.480
<v Speaker 1>that during many other harassing phone calls, Roy was under

729
00:39:11.559 --> 00:39:14.880
<v Speaker 1>surveillance like they're watching him right, like we have eyes

730
00:39:14.920 --> 00:39:17.679
<v Speaker 1>on him right now. And Cindy just reported a phone call.

731
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:18.880
<v Speaker 2>He was not on the phone.

732
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:22.559
<v Speaker 1>No, he's like getting groceries or some shit. Yeah, so

733
00:39:22.719 --> 00:39:25.639
<v Speaker 1>there was to police, there was no way he could

734
00:39:25.679 --> 00:39:28.719
<v Speaker 1>have been the one responsible. Right if he was involved,

735
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:31.239
<v Speaker 1>he would have to have an accomplice.

736
00:39:31.079 --> 00:39:35.039
<v Speaker 2>Which is possible because there has been times where other people,

737
00:39:35.199 --> 00:39:38.679
<v Speaker 2>like two individuals or like a female or whatever, was involved.

738
00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:43.000
<v Speaker 1>That's true now by now. Alan Connolly, a psychiatrist who

739
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:45.559
<v Speaker 1>had been treating Cindy on and off since nineteen eighty three,

740
00:39:45.639 --> 00:39:48.639
<v Speaker 1>He had serious concerns about her mental health. He had

741
00:39:48.639 --> 00:39:51.760
<v Speaker 1>originally believed her reports of harassment, but in mid nineteen

742
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:55.280
<v Speaker 1>eighty six, he feared that Cindy was spiraling into suicidal depression.

743
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:58.760
<v Speaker 1>He arranged for her to be involuntary admitted to a

744
00:39:58.760 --> 00:40:02.199
<v Speaker 1>psychiatric ward in Saint Hospital. There, she was diagnosed with

745
00:40:02.280 --> 00:40:06.920
<v Speaker 1>anorexia in severe depression. During her stay, Cindy wrote an

746
00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:12.199
<v Speaker 1>entry in her journal rather concerning one quote I feel

747
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.519
<v Speaker 1>like suicide is my best option in an unbearable situation,

748
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:17.960
<v Speaker 1>and as soon as I get out of here, I'll

749
00:40:18.000 --> 00:40:22.239
<v Speaker 1>carry out my plan. All Now, over the ten weeks

750
00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:24.360
<v Speaker 1>stay that she spent in the hospital, Cindy's mental health

751
00:40:24.360 --> 00:40:28.360
<v Speaker 1>showed remarkable improvement. With steady treatment, structure, and support, she

752
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:30.679
<v Speaker 1>seemed to finally regain a small sense of control in

753
00:40:30.719 --> 00:40:35.840
<v Speaker 1>her life. Now, surprisingly, life it seemed to take a

754
00:40:35.880 --> 00:40:39.320
<v Speaker 1>turn for the better for her, so she's released from

755
00:40:39.320 --> 00:40:42.920
<v Speaker 1>the hospital. The call stopped, threatening notes disappeared, and for

756
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:45.840
<v Speaker 1>the first time in ages, she could step outside without

757
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:49.280
<v Speaker 1>fear that someone was lurking in the shadows. She stuck

758
00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:51.840
<v Speaker 1>with therapy, telling her counselors that she's starting to feel

759
00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:55.960
<v Speaker 1>more like herself. By September, Cindy was confident enough to

760
00:40:55.960 --> 00:40:58.559
<v Speaker 1>buy her own house and was making plans to return

761
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:03.079
<v Speaker 1>to work the following month. Now. All this progress, unfortunately

762
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:07.519
<v Speaker 1>was short lived. Almost immediately after going back to her

763
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:10.880
<v Speaker 1>old job, she was fired. The hospital saw her mental

764
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:13.440
<v Speaker 1>health struggles as too much of a liability, and they

765
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:14.920
<v Speaker 1>unfortunately let her go.

766
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:18.239
<v Speaker 2>WHOA. Yeah, it was a.

767
00:41:17.719 --> 00:41:21.480
<v Speaker 1>Crushing blow, but Cindy didn't give up. Nearly a year later,

768
00:41:21.519 --> 00:41:23.559
<v Speaker 1>in August of nineteen eighty seven, she landed a new

769
00:41:23.559 --> 00:41:28.039
<v Speaker 1>position at Richmond General Hospital. Now, unfortunately, that same month

770
00:41:28.159 --> 00:41:34.519
<v Speaker 1>the harassment started all over again. Cindy called the police

771
00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:36.760
<v Speaker 1>to report that someone had tried to break into her

772
00:41:36.800 --> 00:41:41.039
<v Speaker 1>home tried to pry open a window. Three days later,

773
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.719
<v Speaker 1>she phoned again, this time saying that the light bulbs

774
00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:45.960
<v Speaker 1>in her front porch had been loosened as if you know,

775
00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:50.360
<v Speaker 1>wanting it to be dark from there. It was a

776
00:41:50.400 --> 00:41:54.199
<v Speaker 1>weekly string of new reports, strange noises, signs of trespassing,

777
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:56.920
<v Speaker 1>and Cindy's growing fear that someone was targeting her once

778
00:41:56.960 --> 00:42:01.960
<v Speaker 1>again like before. About a month in the new renewed harassment,

779
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:07.719
<v Speaker 1>Roy make Peace received two bizarre voicemails, one on his

780
00:42:07.719 --> 00:42:10.960
<v Speaker 1>home answering machine. Sorry, both on his home answering machine,

781
00:42:11.039 --> 00:42:14.880
<v Speaker 1>and the messages they're from someone who was obviously trying

782
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:19.480
<v Speaker 1>to disguise their voice. Now, however, it was very clear

783
00:42:19.960 --> 00:42:22.960
<v Speaker 1>they were trying to be a pretend to be a

784
00:42:23.320 --> 00:42:28.480
<v Speaker 1>hired killer. The killer claimed that Roy paid them to

785
00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:29.280
<v Speaker 1>kill Cindy.

786
00:42:31.519 --> 00:42:33.519
<v Speaker 2>And this is left on his voicemail.

787
00:42:33.760 --> 00:42:39.119
<v Speaker 1>Yes, okay, and these the voice that's obviously being like disguised.

788
00:42:39.519 --> 00:42:45.239
<v Speaker 1>It was a female voice. Huh shit, So like my

789
00:42:45.400 --> 00:42:48.639
<v Speaker 1>voice is like this, and the voice is sucking like this,

790
00:42:48.880 --> 00:42:51.320
<v Speaker 1>Like it's like a female trying to do this and

791
00:42:51.519 --> 00:42:59.039
<v Speaker 1>talking on his voicemail. It's yeah, very bizarre. Yeah. Now,

792
00:42:59.039 --> 00:43:01.840
<v Speaker 1>when Roy got these messages, he was absolutely fed up

793
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:04.599
<v Speaker 1>and he immediately handed these tapes over to his lawyer.

794
00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:09.960
<v Speaker 1>He didn't trust the police to handle it fairly anymore either. Meanwhile,

795
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:13.400
<v Speaker 1>Cindy was unraveling. She confided in her sister, admitting that

796
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:15.599
<v Speaker 1>she felt like she was losing her grip on reality.

797
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:18.639
<v Speaker 1>She believed that all the drugs she'd been injecting during

798
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:21.239
<v Speaker 1>the past week had somehow damaged her brain, leaving her

799
00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:25.119
<v Speaker 1>unsure of what was real or what wasn't. Now, Cindy

800
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:28.000
<v Speaker 1>went to police and accused Roy, once again of orchestrating everything,

801
00:43:28.079 --> 00:43:30.760
<v Speaker 1>the threats, the break ins, the harassment. She said, Roy,

802
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:33.760
<v Speaker 1>with all his expertise as a psychiatrist, was trying to

803
00:43:33.840 --> 00:43:38.639
<v Speaker 1>systematically break her mind peace by peace. The police arranged

804
00:43:38.679 --> 00:43:41.519
<v Speaker 1>another recorded phone call between Cindy and Roy. As before,

805
00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:45.360
<v Speaker 1>Roy denied everything and he just begged her to leave

806
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:48.000
<v Speaker 1>him alone and moved on. He wanted nothing to do

807
00:43:48.079 --> 00:43:51.639
<v Speaker 1>with her. After they hung up, Roy's lawyer contacted the

808
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:55.559
<v Speaker 1>police again and turned over the suspicious voicemails left on

809
00:43:55.760 --> 00:44:00.119
<v Speaker 1>his entering machine. The police immediately suspected Cindy herself had

810
00:44:00.199 --> 00:44:04.039
<v Speaker 1>left them trying to frame Broy, which I'm sure we

811
00:44:04.119 --> 00:44:08.760
<v Speaker 1>all already thought. Two weeks later, Cindy was once again attacked.

812
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.480
<v Speaker 1>She was found unconscious in her car, naked from the

813
00:44:11.519 --> 00:44:14.960
<v Speaker 1>waist down and hog tied as always a black nole

814
00:44:15.000 --> 00:44:17.920
<v Speaker 1>and stocking was tied tightly around her neck. When she

815
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:21.440
<v Speaker 1>came to she remembered getting out of her car and

816
00:44:21.519 --> 00:44:25.320
<v Speaker 1>being grabbed, but after that her memory was blank. The

817
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:29.519
<v Speaker 1>cycle started again, threatening notes, phone calls nearly every day,

818
00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:32.199
<v Speaker 1>and this time the harassment even followed her to work,

819
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:35.400
<v Speaker 1>and her coworkers at Richmond General Hospital began finding disturbing

820
00:44:35.400 --> 00:44:39.039
<v Speaker 1>notes meant for Cindy left around the hospital. After the

821
00:44:39.079 --> 00:44:42.199
<v Speaker 1>attempted break in, police even brought in sent dogs to

822
00:44:42.239 --> 00:44:44.360
<v Speaker 1>try and track whoever had been near her home, but

823
00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:48.679
<v Speaker 1>the dogs came up with nothing, no trail, no scent,

824
00:44:49.320 --> 00:44:54.039
<v Speaker 1>no evidence. Then about a month later, Cindy was attacked

825
00:44:54.039 --> 00:44:59.800
<v Speaker 1>for what would be the final time. At around four pms.

826
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:03.000
<v Speaker 1>He went to Richmond General Hospital to pick up her paycheck.

827
00:45:03.920 --> 00:45:07.000
<v Speaker 1>She chatted briefly with some coworkers, and they later recalled

828
00:45:07.000 --> 00:45:09.679
<v Speaker 1>that she was in surprisingly good spirits. She told them

829
00:45:09.719 --> 00:45:12.199
<v Speaker 1>that she hadn't had any strange incidents lately and was

830
00:45:12.239 --> 00:45:16.079
<v Speaker 1>hopeful that maybe the stalking had finally stopped. But knowing

831
00:45:16.079 --> 00:45:19.239
<v Speaker 1>her luck, she admitted she even still had her dots.

832
00:45:20.800 --> 00:45:24.039
<v Speaker 1>That night, Cindy had big plans. She was supposed to

833
00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:28.119
<v Speaker 1>have a high tech infrared security system installed in her house,

834
00:45:28.559 --> 00:45:30.920
<v Speaker 1>the kind used at banks, right, so making sure that

835
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:32.559
<v Speaker 1>you can even see in the dark all this sort

836
00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:35.840
<v Speaker 1>of stuff. This was going to finally catch whoever was

837
00:45:35.880 --> 00:45:39.519
<v Speaker 1>tormenting her. After that, Agnes and Tom Woodcock were planning

838
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:42.159
<v Speaker 1>to spend the night just like they had many times before.

839
00:45:43.280 --> 00:45:45.599
<v Speaker 1>After picking up her paycheck, Cindy made a quick stop

840
00:45:46.480 --> 00:45:48.760
<v Speaker 1>to pick up some groceries, then headed to the bank

841
00:45:49.000 --> 00:45:51.960
<v Speaker 1>to deposit her check. Security footage showed her leaving the

842
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:55.360
<v Speaker 1>bank at about seven fifty nine pm, and after that

843
00:45:56.599 --> 00:46:01.960
<v Speaker 1>Cindy vanished. When Agnes and Tom Woodcock arrived at her

844
00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:05.360
<v Speaker 1>house at around ten PM, they immediately noticed something was wrong.

845
00:46:06.119 --> 00:46:09.119
<v Speaker 1>Cindy's car wasn't in the driveway and the house was

846
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:13.440
<v Speaker 1>dark and empty. They managed to speak to her downstairs tenants,

847
00:46:13.639 --> 00:46:15.440
<v Speaker 1>who told him that Cindy had gone out earlier to

848
00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:19.280
<v Speaker 1>run some errands, but she hadn't come back yet. Worried,

849
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:22.159
<v Speaker 1>the two drove to the shopping center that Cindy usually frequented,

850
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:27.159
<v Speaker 1>and there they found her car abandoned in the parking lot.

851
00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:30.800
<v Speaker 1>Inside the car were her groceries, and sitting beside them

852
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:34.400
<v Speaker 1>was a wrapped birthday present for a child's friend. There

853
00:46:34.440 --> 00:46:37.119
<v Speaker 1>was a blood smear on the driver's side door.

854
00:46:37.639 --> 00:46:38.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh boy.

855
00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:42.719
<v Speaker 1>Inside was also some of Cindy's wallet contents. They were

856
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:46.960
<v Speaker 1>scattered underneath the vehicle, and it almost appeared to suggest

857
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:51.599
<v Speaker 1>a struggle. Terrified, the two called police and reported Cindy

858
00:46:51.639 --> 00:46:55.360
<v Speaker 1>missing right away. Now, given her history, law enforcement treated

859
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:58.280
<v Speaker 1>it as an urgent case, launching a large scale search

860
00:46:58.440 --> 00:47:02.519
<v Speaker 1>right away. Her face was plaid stirred everywhere TV newspapers, posters,

861
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:05.880
<v Speaker 1>and shop windows, but despite the attention, Cindy remained missing

862
00:47:06.559 --> 00:47:11.880
<v Speaker 1>for two weeks. Two weeks when she was finally found,

863
00:47:11.960 --> 00:47:14.360
<v Speaker 1>it was exactly what her family and friends had feared.

864
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:19.239
<v Speaker 1>Cindy was discovered in the yard of an abandoned house

865
00:47:19.760 --> 00:47:22.840
<v Speaker 1>a little over a mile where her car had been left.

866
00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:25.360
<v Speaker 1>The property sat on a busy street, and although the

867
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:27.679
<v Speaker 1>house was vacant, it was known as a large hangout

868
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.559
<v Speaker 1>for local teams, especially in the summer. However, no one

869
00:47:30.599 --> 00:47:35.000
<v Speaker 1>had been there for a few weeks. Adding to the eeriness,

870
00:47:35.199 --> 00:47:39.159
<v Speaker 1>graffiti had recently been sprayed on the house, reading someone

871
00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:43.239
<v Speaker 1>died here whoa and it circled the exact spot where

872
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:45.079
<v Speaker 1>they found Cindy's body.

873
00:47:45.920 --> 00:47:48.519
<v Speaker 2>WHOA. Okay shit.

874
00:47:49.840 --> 00:47:54.079
<v Speaker 1>The scene was brutal. Cindy had been beaten severely and

875
00:47:54.159 --> 00:47:56.679
<v Speaker 1>her hands and feet were tied behind her back. The

876
00:47:56.719 --> 00:48:00.239
<v Speaker 1>bindings were so tight that one finger had been worn

877
00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:02.719
<v Speaker 1>down to the bone from trying to free herself.

878
00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:05.480
<v Speaker 2>Oh my gosh.

879
00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:08.599
<v Speaker 1>She was fully dressed. She wasn't wearing any shoes though,

880
00:48:08.639 --> 00:48:11.159
<v Speaker 1>and her feet were perfectly clean, indicating that she hadn't

881
00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:15.239
<v Speaker 1>walked there on her own. And as always, a black

882
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:19.159
<v Speaker 1>nylon stalking was wrapped around her neck. A small needle

883
00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:21.159
<v Speaker 1>mark was found on the inside of her right elbow,

884
00:48:21.199 --> 00:48:23.519
<v Speaker 1>and for the first time in her ordeal, the toxicology

885
00:48:23.559 --> 00:48:28.199
<v Speaker 1>reports actually found drugs in her system, a massive overdose

886
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:32.360
<v Speaker 1>of morphine along with diazepam and floresepam. I Hope I

887
00:48:32.440 --> 00:48:35.719
<v Speaker 1>pronounced that correctly, the dose of morphine alone was more

888
00:48:35.719 --> 00:48:40.039
<v Speaker 1>than ten times a lethal amount. Despite the sheer brutality

889
00:48:40.039 --> 00:48:42.920
<v Speaker 1>of the scene, the RCMP leaned towards ruling her death

890
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:47.239
<v Speaker 1>either as a suicide or an accidental overdose.

891
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:52.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that okay.

892
00:48:54.039 --> 00:48:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Their theory was that Cindy, after seven exhausting years of

893
00:48:58.880 --> 00:49:03.760
<v Speaker 1>stalking attacks and fear, may have overdosed, believing that someone

894
00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:08.760
<v Speaker 1>would find her in time to save her. So they're

895
00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:12.800
<v Speaker 1>saying she did this just like they believe she did

896
00:49:12.840 --> 00:49:17.000
<v Speaker 1>the other attacks. What she set this up? She was

897
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:21.280
<v Speaker 1>setting it up to be found. However, no one found her.

898
00:49:21.920 --> 00:49:25.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but would you be found in that way? Like

899
00:49:25.199 --> 00:49:27.599
<v Speaker 2>would she have been able to do all that to herself?

900
00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:29.239
<v Speaker 1>That's the question.

901
00:49:29.519 --> 00:49:32.239
<v Speaker 2>And also, I don't know, just her actions prior to

902
00:49:32.400 --> 00:49:37.760
<v Speaker 2>doesn't really make sense for someone who's about to commit suicide,

903
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:41.840
<v Speaker 2>like picks up a check, cashes the check, gets groceries,

904
00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:47.000
<v Speaker 2>and then also like has this rapped presence? Well, the

905
00:49:47.079 --> 00:49:51.000
<v Speaker 2>rap present maybe, but getting the money and stuff doesn't

906
00:49:51.039 --> 00:49:53.320
<v Speaker 2>necessarily it.

907
00:49:53.320 --> 00:49:56.159
<v Speaker 1>It doesn't, it doesn't. You have to consider the fact

908
00:49:57.079 --> 00:50:01.599
<v Speaker 1>for a moment. Just just think that Cindy was suffering

909
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:04.480
<v Speaker 1>from something along the lines of this dissociative disorder. Okay,

910
00:50:04.760 --> 00:50:07.760
<v Speaker 1>that there is something that Cindy was responsible for this

911
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:10.480
<v Speaker 1>and she just doesn't remember. Just pretend that is the case,

912
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:12.960
<v Speaker 1>factually the case for the moment, not saying it is.

913
00:50:13.000 --> 00:50:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Just pretend it is for the moment. Yeah, she had

914
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:20.519
<v Speaker 1>seven years to learn how to set this up, to

915
00:50:20.639 --> 00:50:23.599
<v Speaker 1>learn how to throw police off, to learn how to

916
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:27.599
<v Speaker 1>make it look real. So who's to say she didn't

917
00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:31.800
<v Speaker 1>learn that normal things prior to would make it look real.

918
00:50:32.119 --> 00:50:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Not saying she's doing it on purpose subconsciously dissociative stuff, right,

919
00:50:36.840 --> 00:50:38.480
<v Speaker 1>Who's to say she didn't learn how to do it

920
00:50:38.519 --> 00:50:40.800
<v Speaker 1>over the course of these seven years of these alleged

921
00:50:40.800 --> 00:50:41.920
<v Speaker 1>attacks and stockings.

922
00:50:42.199 --> 00:50:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, but how can you explain to me again how

923
00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:48.039
<v Speaker 2>she was found like she had her finger was all

924
00:50:48.079 --> 00:50:50.559
<v Speaker 2>fucked up to from her trying to like free herself.

925
00:50:50.639 --> 00:50:54.039
<v Speaker 1>Right, Yes, so she was apparently hog tied. Her hands

926
00:50:54.039 --> 00:50:56.440
<v Speaker 1>and feet were hogtied behind her back, and the ropes

927
00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:58.360
<v Speaker 1>were tight enough that her finger was worn down to

928
00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:00.639
<v Speaker 1>the bone from trying to actually like free herself.

929
00:51:00.760 --> 00:51:02.719
<v Speaker 2>See, I don't feel like you could do that yourself.

930
00:51:03.159 --> 00:51:06.519
<v Speaker 2>How the hell could you do that to yourself?

931
00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:07.199
<v Speaker 1>Good question.

932
00:51:08.159 --> 00:51:11.039
<v Speaker 2>I just yeah, that that's not sitting well with me. Again.

933
00:51:11.159 --> 00:51:15.199
<v Speaker 1>Now this description, though, I mean, we are relying on descriptions,

934
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:18.880
<v Speaker 1>it's hard to say. Maybe it wasn't as tight as

935
00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:22.559
<v Speaker 1>it's described and these these reports, maybe that's not quite

936
00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:25.159
<v Speaker 1>telling the entire picture. I don't know. I don't have

937
00:51:25.239 --> 00:51:27.880
<v Speaker 1>the exact police reports from the situation, right.

938
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:31.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I just don't feel like, Okay, if she

939
00:51:31.880 --> 00:51:35.840
<v Speaker 2>would say found in her home, you know, with like

940
00:51:35.960 --> 00:51:38.360
<v Speaker 2>a little beat up or like but laying in bed

941
00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:40.639
<v Speaker 2>or on her coach or on the floor or something,

942
00:51:41.559 --> 00:51:45.360
<v Speaker 2>I would maybe like believe the suicide thing a little

943
00:51:45.360 --> 00:51:48.159
<v Speaker 2>bit more. But this I'm having trouble believing it. I

944
00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:48.920
<v Speaker 2>guess fair.

945
00:51:48.880 --> 00:51:52.519
<v Speaker 1>Enough, fair enough. I do want to say, now, working

946
00:51:52.519 --> 00:51:55.280
<v Speaker 1>at a hospital as a nurse, she does have access

947
00:51:55.400 --> 00:51:57.519
<v Speaker 1>to needles.

948
00:51:57.719 --> 00:51:59.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, drugs, she does.

949
00:51:59.679 --> 00:52:01.760
<v Speaker 1>It's like she was drugged with something that she didn't

950
00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:02.880
<v Speaker 1>have easy access to.

951
00:52:04.760 --> 00:52:08.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, Okay.

952
00:52:08.719 --> 00:52:11.119
<v Speaker 1>Now, her friends and family were horrified with the conclusion

953
00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:15.000
<v Speaker 1>that the authorities came to. They believed that it was

954
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:18.039
<v Speaker 1>obvious Roy make Peace was the one behind it, and

955
00:52:18.039 --> 00:52:21.960
<v Speaker 1>that someone, if not him, you know, it was a murder,

956
00:52:22.000 --> 00:52:23.760
<v Speaker 1>plain and simple, one way or another, but they did

957
00:52:23.800 --> 00:52:27.119
<v Speaker 1>believe Roy make Peace was the one behind it. In

958
00:52:27.199 --> 00:52:30.280
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety, a formal inquest into Cindy's death was launched.

959
00:52:30.480 --> 00:52:33.480
<v Speaker 1>The proceedings stretched over forty days and the testimonies that

960
00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:38.480
<v Speaker 1>came were shocking. Roy himself even testified, in fact, claiming

961
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:43.039
<v Speaker 1>that Cindy had suffered sexual and physical abuse as a child.

962
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:46.360
<v Speaker 1>According to Roy, Cindy told him during their marriage that

963
00:52:46.400 --> 00:52:49.800
<v Speaker 1>her father Auto had been both physically violent and emotionally

964
00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:53.519
<v Speaker 1>cruel an and even that one of her brothers had sexually.

965
00:52:53.239 --> 00:52:55.280
<v Speaker 2>Abused her oh Okay.

966
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:57.800
<v Speaker 1>Roy said that whenever he tried to talk to Cindy

967
00:52:57.840 --> 00:53:01.920
<v Speaker 1>about her past, she would explode with age sometimes her

968
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.039
<v Speaker 1>Various psychiatrists over the years even confirmed this as well.

969
00:53:06.400 --> 00:53:09.760
<v Speaker 1>Another revelation came from Cindy's parents, who admitted they'd found

970
00:53:09.800 --> 00:53:13.960
<v Speaker 1>and destroyed a stash of medication in Cindy's home shortly

971
00:53:14.119 --> 00:53:18.400
<v Speaker 1>after her death. Some of these prescription drugs matched the

972
00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:24.239
<v Speaker 1>ones she overdosed on. They destroyed the medications because they

973
00:53:24.239 --> 00:53:26.920
<v Speaker 1>were feel fearful that these would lead authorities to conclude

974
00:53:26.920 --> 00:53:29.760
<v Speaker 1>her death was a suicide, so they flushed everything down

975
00:53:29.800 --> 00:53:31.599
<v Speaker 1>the toilet and vowed never to speak of it again,

976
00:53:31.960 --> 00:53:33.719
<v Speaker 1>so they hid evidence.

977
00:53:33.920 --> 00:53:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Yikes, okay.

978
00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:41.760
<v Speaker 1>Cindy's sister Melanie also testified, revealing that she had found

979
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:46.119
<v Speaker 1>a glass cutter, a medical syringe, a urinary catheter, and

980
00:53:46.199 --> 00:53:49.920
<v Speaker 1>saline solution in Cindy's room after her death, items that

981
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.880
<v Speaker 1>seemed eerily similar to tools used in some of the

982
00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:57.480
<v Speaker 1>staged attacks. Cindy had previously reported these ones, and you know,

983
00:53:57.519 --> 00:54:01.639
<v Speaker 1>like these attacks happened whatever, and these tools were most

984
00:54:01.719 --> 00:54:05.800
<v Speaker 1>likely and potentially used in those attacks. The psychiatrist who

985
00:54:05.800 --> 00:54:09.280
<v Speaker 1>treated Cindy over the years also took the stand. One doctor,

986
00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:14.559
<v Speaker 1>Paul Termisano, testified that he believed Cindy suffered from hysteronic

987
00:54:14.679 --> 00:54:18.679
<v Speaker 1>personality disorder, a condition marked by attention seeking behavior and

988
00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:23.800
<v Speaker 1>exaggerated emotions. Another specialist suggested borderline personality disorder with elements

989
00:54:23.800 --> 00:54:28.840
<v Speaker 1>of severe PTSD. Several forensic experts were also brought in

990
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:32.480
<v Speaker 1>to demonstrate how Cindy could have tied herself up during

991
00:54:32.559 --> 00:54:37.280
<v Speaker 1>those past attacks, and medical professionals explained how long she

992
00:54:37.360 --> 00:54:41.400
<v Speaker 1>could have remained conscious after injecting herself with drugs that

993
00:54:41.480 --> 00:54:46.400
<v Speaker 1>were found in her system. After forty days of testimony,

994
00:54:46.960 --> 00:54:50.960
<v Speaker 1>the jury couldn't reach a clear conclusion. They found no

995
00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:54.519
<v Speaker 1>solid proof that Cindy had been murdered, but they also

996
00:54:54.559 --> 00:54:58.199
<v Speaker 1>couldn't find definitively proof or one way or another to

997
00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:01.840
<v Speaker 1>say that it was a suicide. They officially ruled her

998
00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:07.079
<v Speaker 1>death as death by an unknown event, and with that

999
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:11.599
<v Speaker 1>the case was formally closed. The RCMP had spent over

1000
00:55:11.719 --> 00:55:16.360
<v Speaker 1>one point five million dollars investigating the case of Cindy James,

1001
00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:22.199
<v Speaker 1>and yet there was no evidence at hand. There was

1002
00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:25.679
<v Speaker 1>no evidence a stalker ever existed existed, there was no

1003
00:55:25.719 --> 00:55:29.039
<v Speaker 1>evidence there was a murder. And because of that, many

1004
00:55:29.079 --> 00:55:31.639
<v Speaker 1>people who study the case of Cindy James believed that

1005
00:55:31.719 --> 00:55:35.760
<v Speaker 1>she was behind the entire ordeal from the beginning, whether

1006
00:55:35.800 --> 00:55:40.079
<v Speaker 1>she knew it or not. And that's the case of

1007
00:55:40.119 --> 00:55:49.119
<v Speaker 1>Cindy James. Ding fucking dang, yeah right, try and swallow

1008
00:55:49.159 --> 00:55:50.679
<v Speaker 1>that case and process.

1009
00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:54.400
<v Speaker 2>It no shit, Because the amount of times, even just

1010
00:55:54.519 --> 00:55:56.639
<v Speaker 2>listening that I went back and forth to like, there's

1011
00:55:56.639 --> 00:55:58.480
<v Speaker 2>a stocker, No, it's Cindy, there's a stock or no,

1012
00:55:58.519 --> 00:56:01.599
<v Speaker 2>it's Cindy. At this point, I have no fucking idea.

1013
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:04.480
<v Speaker 2>I can't even I can't even say.

1014
00:56:04.360 --> 00:56:06.559
<v Speaker 1>I'm right there with you. Did I or did I not?

1015
00:56:06.719 --> 00:56:08.480
<v Speaker 1>Tell you that you're gonna be like what the fuck

1016
00:56:08.519 --> 00:56:10.159
<v Speaker 1>at the very end, I can't remember what we said

1017
00:56:10.400 --> 00:56:12.280
<v Speaker 1>in part one, the exact quote or how we said it,

1018
00:56:12.320 --> 00:56:13.800
<v Speaker 1>but I remember being like, no, you're gonna be like

1019
00:56:13.840 --> 00:56:15.559
<v Speaker 1>this is a fucking, weird, fucked up case. And I

1020
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:16.679
<v Speaker 1>can't remember or don't know. Shit.

1021
00:56:18.599 --> 00:56:21.519
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this amount of times that I've gone back and forth,

1022
00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:25.000
<v Speaker 2>and I'm even right now, I just did again because

1023
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:27.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, no, like she someone did this to her, No,

1024
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:32.559
<v Speaker 2>it was her, just oh man, I don't know. No,

1025
00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:35.039
<v Speaker 2>I mean, even the jury couldn't figure it out, right,

1026
00:56:35.079 --> 00:56:36.960
<v Speaker 2>and they had all the details, so.

1027
00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, wow, So yeah, I don't even know what else

1028
00:56:43.039 --> 00:56:45.159
<v Speaker 1>to say. I can't say much more on this one,

1029
00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:48.440
<v Speaker 1>because holy shit, what a case. There is so much

1030
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:50.599
<v Speaker 1>to it, so much tunpack and like you said and

1031
00:56:50.679 --> 00:56:53.239
<v Speaker 1>put it very well, even the jury couldn't figure it out.

1032
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:57.159
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, okay, because she in Part one we did

1033
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:01.039
<v Speaker 2>discuss though, how she there was she felt like she

1034
00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:03.920
<v Speaker 2>was a little bit I don't know if neglect does

1035
00:57:03.920 --> 00:57:06.239
<v Speaker 2>the right word, but not really giving the attention as

1036
00:57:06.280 --> 00:57:08.559
<v Speaker 2>a child, right, or she didn't get much attention as

1037
00:57:08.559 --> 00:57:13.000
<v Speaker 2>a child. That was a thing, right, I can't recall,

1038
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:15.119
<v Speaker 2>I don't think so, okay, I don't know.

1039
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:16.079
<v Speaker 1>Maybe thinking of a different case.

1040
00:57:16.119 --> 00:57:18.760
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, because I was just thinking about the

1041
00:57:18.760 --> 00:57:23.199
<v Speaker 2>one diagnosis where they said that she was like seeking

1042
00:57:23.239 --> 00:57:24.440
<v Speaker 2>attention and stuff, you know.

1043
00:57:24.719 --> 00:57:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, let me go back in my notes here

1044
00:57:26.519 --> 00:57:29.400
<v Speaker 1>and let's double check this now. I do recall. I

1045
00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:32.360
<v Speaker 1>don't think she had like the best upbringing by any means.

1046
00:57:32.599 --> 00:57:35.519
<v Speaker 1>And obviously, I mean, as far as Roy says, it

1047
00:57:35.559 --> 00:57:36.519
<v Speaker 1>does seem like there was.

1048
00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:37.679
<v Speaker 2>Some other shit really mad.

1049
00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:40.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, okay, So I found the spot that you're

1050
00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:43.599
<v Speaker 1>thinking of here. So I'm just going to read right

1051
00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:45.360
<v Speaker 1>from the script exactly what we said in part one.

1052
00:57:47.239 --> 00:57:49.119
<v Speaker 1>Where should I start? Okay, So she was one of

1053
00:57:49.159 --> 00:57:51.360
<v Speaker 1>six kids, and growing up back then was a whole

1054
00:57:51.400 --> 00:57:55.320
<v Speaker 1>different world Matilda and Auto. Her parents were pretty old school.

1055
00:57:55.400 --> 00:57:58.079
<v Speaker 1>They believe kids should be quiet, behave and not make

1056
00:57:58.079 --> 00:58:01.440
<v Speaker 1>a fuss. Auto in particular, was off as nails if

1057
00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:04.320
<v Speaker 1>he was in a bad mood. It was unusual that

1058
00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:07.079
<v Speaker 1>the kids, sorry, where am I here? It was usually

1059
00:58:07.159 --> 00:58:08.719
<v Speaker 1>there we go. It was usually the kids who ended

1060
00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:11.519
<v Speaker 1>up on the receiving end. And his way of handling

1061
00:58:11.559 --> 00:58:15.119
<v Speaker 1>discipline was well, let's say not exactly gentle. In his mind,

1062
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:17.320
<v Speaker 1>if something was wrong, he could just smack it out

1063
00:58:17.320 --> 00:58:20.039
<v Speaker 1>of you. From a young age, Cindy figured out the

1064
00:58:20.079 --> 00:58:22.920
<v Speaker 1>safest way was safe at bat was to stay out

1065
00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:28.719
<v Speaker 1>of Auto's stay on Auto's good side. Yeah, okay, Now,

1066
00:58:28.760 --> 00:58:34.039
<v Speaker 1>I mean she did like trying, Like she threw herself

1067
00:58:34.119 --> 00:58:37.599
<v Speaker 1>into her schoolwork and like hope that, like you doing well,

1068
00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:39.760
<v Speaker 1>she might make her dad proud or something like that.

1069
00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:42.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but she never really yeah happened.

1070
00:58:43.159 --> 00:58:45.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so she is like a sentence I do have

1071
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:47.840
<v Speaker 1>here is whenever she got even the sliver of attentions

1072
00:58:47.840 --> 00:58:49.800
<v Speaker 1>from him, she would light up and go on about

1073
00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:50.840
<v Speaker 1>her latest accomplishment.

1074
00:58:50.920 --> 00:58:54.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, like it wasn't something that was often handed out

1075
00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:55.159
<v Speaker 2>to her.

1076
00:58:55.400 --> 00:58:57.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So I'm not gonna say that she was like

1077
00:58:57.519 --> 00:59:01.880
<v Speaker 1>attention seeking, but she did, I guess, I guess maybe yeah.

1078
00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:06.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So then of a sudden, so I'm just thinking

1079
00:59:06.559 --> 00:59:10.280
<v Speaker 2>as an adult, then you know, she may crave attention

1080
00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:13.880
<v Speaker 2>because she didn't necessarily get it as a kid. I

1081
00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:14.280
<v Speaker 2>don't know.

1082
00:59:14.400 --> 00:59:18.719
<v Speaker 1>Holy shit, even if someone craves attention, this is an

1083
00:59:18.800 --> 00:59:22.840
<v Speaker 1>extreme way to go about it. Yeah, because she ended

1084
00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:25.800
<v Speaker 1>up If that is the case, she ended up killing

1085
00:59:25.840 --> 00:59:29.559
<v Speaker 1>herself and she would get attention like holy shit.

1086
00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Another thought too that I had while you were chatting

1087
00:59:33.079 --> 00:59:38.599
<v Speaker 2>is if if she'd set this up and then at

1088
00:59:38.599 --> 00:59:41.239
<v Speaker 2>one point, I don't know, I don't know exactly how

1089
00:59:41.280 --> 00:59:44.880
<v Speaker 2>it works, but it came to and realized what the

1090
00:59:44.880 --> 00:59:47.599
<v Speaker 2>fuck she did? You know, because I don't know if

1091
00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:49.760
<v Speaker 2>she I don't know how quickly you can switch back

1092
00:59:49.800 --> 00:59:53.760
<v Speaker 2>and forth to what they're saying she could have, do

1093
00:59:53.800 --> 00:59:54.880
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean, Like.

1094
00:59:54.800 --> 00:59:58.280
<v Speaker 1>She snaps out of it and she's, yeah, yeah, who.

1095
00:59:58.119 --> 01:00:01.039
<v Speaker 2>Knows, Like she did this to herself in that you

1096
01:00:01.039 --> 01:00:06.320
<v Speaker 2>know state and then comes too from it and is

1097
01:00:06.360 --> 01:00:07.119
<v Speaker 2>like holy shit.

1098
01:00:07.880 --> 01:00:10.079
<v Speaker 1>But if that is the case, if she was in

1099
01:00:10.119 --> 01:00:12.039
<v Speaker 1>a state where she did it to herself and then

1100
01:00:12.079 --> 01:00:16.000
<v Speaker 1>she comes to she probably didn't realize she was the

1101
01:00:16.000 --> 01:00:16.639
<v Speaker 1>one who did it.

1102
01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:20.119
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, but just like panicking to try to get

1103
01:00:20.119 --> 01:00:22.039
<v Speaker 2>out and oh gosh. Well.

1104
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:24.400
<v Speaker 1>And that's the thing too, is if she was the

1105
01:00:24.440 --> 01:00:27.119
<v Speaker 1>one to do it, as the theory goes, she did

1106
01:00:27.119 --> 01:00:31.800
<v Speaker 1>it to herself expecting to be found and saved, but

1107
01:00:32.039 --> 01:00:35.559
<v Speaker 1>when she came to if she if she did, if

1108
01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:38.079
<v Speaker 1>she did, that's heavily on the if she did theory,

1109
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:41.400
<v Speaker 1>then when she came to. Then she's struggling to get

1110
01:00:41.400 --> 01:00:44.000
<v Speaker 1>free because hey, she doesn't remember that she put herself

1111
01:00:44.000 --> 01:00:48.400
<v Speaker 1>in that state, but the in that state version of

1112
01:00:48.440 --> 01:00:51.719
<v Speaker 1>herself was expecting her to be found. And then she's struggling,

1113
01:00:51.800 --> 01:00:53.840
<v Speaker 1>and then never did get found, and then she died,

1114
01:00:53.920 --> 01:00:56.159
<v Speaker 1>and then it was two weeks later that she gets found.

1115
01:00:56.159 --> 01:00:58.079
<v Speaker 1>Like you know what I mean, it's there's a lot

1116
01:00:58.119 --> 01:01:00.159
<v Speaker 1>of theories about it, and it's it's so messed up

1117
01:01:00.199 --> 01:01:01.559
<v Speaker 1>to think about. I don't know where I was going

1118
01:01:01.559 --> 01:01:03.800
<v Speaker 1>with that thought, but it's so messed up to think about.

1119
01:01:04.239 --> 01:01:07.159
<v Speaker 2>I know, in my mind, I think it would just

1120
01:01:07.199 --> 01:01:09.719
<v Speaker 2>be so easy to prove if she did that to herself,

1121
01:01:09.800 --> 01:01:10.840
<v Speaker 2>but I guess it wasn't.

1122
01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:15.519
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, well, gang, Yeah, So that's the story of

1123
01:01:15.519 --> 01:01:20.320
<v Speaker 1>Cindy James and the Invisible Man, very aptly named because

1124
01:01:20.360 --> 01:01:22.679
<v Speaker 1>she claimed there was a man stalking her and there

1125
01:01:22.760 --> 01:01:26.159
<v Speaker 1>is no evidence he ever existed at all. If you

1126
01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:27.800
<v Speaker 1>guys have some thoughts in this case, we'd love to

1127
01:01:27.840 --> 01:01:29.920
<v Speaker 1>hear it. Use an email message, you name it. We

1128
01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:32.440
<v Speaker 1>have all our stuff in the description of this podcast.

1129
01:01:32.679 --> 01:01:34.119
<v Speaker 1>You can check it out, get a hold of us,

1130
01:01:34.639 --> 01:01:36.599
<v Speaker 1>check some things out like Patreon. Maybe you can go

1131
01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:38.039
<v Speaker 1>join it. Maybe you can give us a review. We

1132
01:01:38.079 --> 01:01:41.400
<v Speaker 1>are an indie podcast, produced, hosted, researched all of it

1133
01:01:41.480 --> 01:01:44.119
<v Speaker 1>on our own. So thank you for support, because your

1134
01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:45.880
<v Speaker 1>support is what keeps us going.

1135
01:01:46.960 --> 01:01:49.360
<v Speaker 2>Okay, just the last note here, I'm like, creep the

1136
01:01:49.400 --> 01:01:52.840
<v Speaker 2>shit out now, because during this recording, we well, we

1137
01:01:52.880 --> 01:01:55.159
<v Speaker 2>have a scale that talks to us, which is really

1138
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:57.119
<v Speaker 2>fucking annoying me. You step on there and it's like hello,

1139
01:01:57.199 --> 01:01:59.119
<v Speaker 2>and then it tells you your weight, so it's like announces

1140
01:01:59.119 --> 01:02:02.000
<v Speaker 2>it to the world. But we were just like sitting

1141
01:02:02.039 --> 01:02:05.000
<v Speaker 2>here and the thing was just we haven't used it

1142
01:02:05.039 --> 01:02:09.199
<v Speaker 2>for a few days, and it just started going like hello, hello, Hello, Hello.

1143
01:02:09.960 --> 01:02:12.440
<v Speaker 2>Something was trying to talk to us. Maybe like that

1144
01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:14.360
<v Speaker 2>is so creepy. Maybe it was Cindy.

1145
01:02:14.679 --> 01:02:15.519
<v Speaker 1>Maybe it was.

1146
01:02:16.239 --> 01:02:17.960
<v Speaker 2>Like, Okay, now I don't know how I'm going to

1147
01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:19.159
<v Speaker 2>go about my day.

1148
01:02:19.159 --> 01:02:20.840
<v Speaker 1>Clearly you're still stuck on the scale.

1149
01:02:21.199 --> 01:02:21.960
<v Speaker 2>That's creepy.

1150
01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:24.199
<v Speaker 1>Well not stuck on the scale, but in your mind.

1151
01:02:24.199 --> 01:02:28.079
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, that's creepy though. Yeah, that's never done.

1152
01:02:27.920 --> 01:02:30.199
<v Speaker 1>That before, No it hasn't. I mean it is an

1153
01:02:30.199 --> 01:02:32.639
<v Speaker 1>older scale at this point. Maybe it's just starting to

1154
01:02:32.719 --> 01:02:33.719
<v Speaker 1>crode inside yourself.

1155
01:02:33.960 --> 01:02:35.719
<v Speaker 2>Throw it out and get We.

1156
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:37.800
<v Speaker 1>Have a haunted scale in our.

1157
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:41.679
<v Speaker 2>House communicating about these cases.

1158
01:02:42.039 --> 01:02:45.599
<v Speaker 1>What if it's not Cindy, What if it's the invisible Man?

1159
01:02:47.639 --> 01:02:48.599
<v Speaker 2>Okay, we gotta go.

1160
01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:53.320
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, until next time, stay wicked,