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<v Speaker 1>Either we are do you know that the Pagan Podcast

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<v Speaker 1>becoming a supporter of joining us at this time to

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<v Speaker 1>continue bust the control.

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<v Speaker 2>Amazing description games.

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<v Speaker 1>For the detect the episode all lot of things. You're

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<v Speaker 1>a divorce lawyer, family lawyer.

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<v Speaker 2>Forty one years, yeah, forty one years, prow law the

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<v Speaker 2>last three or so I gave the.

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<v Speaker 1>Four and criminal. There's a lot of probable, protect, a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of fun, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of fun. I have the temperament and it's

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<v Speaker 2>perfect for that type of law because I don't sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>have empathy for those around me. So when everyone else

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<v Speaker 2>is freaking out, our schemes going fully, which my love

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<v Speaker 2>would say is a problem.

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<v Speaker 1>Another that's not a problem.

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<v Speaker 3>If everyone's freaking out, somebody's gotta you know, gotta keep

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<v Speaker 3>it cool.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but you know you need it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that is true.

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<v Speaker 3>That is true, especially in those uh, you know, divorce cases,

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<v Speaker 3>like emotions are running high as they are. I just

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<v Speaker 3>wrapped up my own, well not divorce case, but the affair.

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<v Speaker 4>With my ex girlfriends and the mother of my children,

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<v Speaker 4>So I know first has emotions can can get how

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<v Speaker 4>high they funny to lay each other.

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<v Speaker 2>Room and so you can imagine what It's like when

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<v Speaker 2>you are the curing that you're fighting in front of

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<v Speaker 2>that's going to decide everything you can get, and the

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<v Speaker 2>challenges have been in turning before a jury in that case.

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<v Speaker 1>I can definitely imagine that we're lucky to here in

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<v Speaker 1>the Netherlands we don't have a trial by jury. I

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<v Speaker 1>mean that is not to say that you know, no

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<v Speaker 1>other third parties were involved, because of course they were,

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<v Speaker 1>but yeah, no, no trial by jury fortunately. But I

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<v Speaker 1>can imagine the struggles of having to convince so many

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<v Speaker 1>people that what they're what they're going to say, what

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<v Speaker 1>they're going to decide, is the right thing, whatever the

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<v Speaker 1>right thing may be at that moment exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And it's like you have to pick the twelve people

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<v Speaker 2>that's going to be on a jury among the sixty

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<v Speaker 2>four or five people have a many days it's in

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<v Speaker 2>a panel that was always careful. I wouldn't pick you

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<v Speaker 2>to be on my jury if you didn't laugh at

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<v Speaker 2>my jokes. I wanted people that connected with me would

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<v Speaker 2>actually laugh at my jokes. If you didn't laugh at

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<v Speaker 2>my joke, I wouldn't put you on the jury.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I actually like that. I like that. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>the cases like that are, you know, serious and high

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<v Speaker 1>strong enough as it is. And if you can't can't

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<v Speaker 1>laugh about something, you know, you got to have a

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<v Speaker 1>way to keep it light or to you know, make

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<v Speaker 1>a little fun of the situation.

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<v Speaker 2>What was the sign of can between me and each

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<v Speaker 2>of the individual drawer?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, I understand that. That's that's great, that's great.

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<v Speaker 1>You've been doing that for twenty two.

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<v Speaker 2>Years, well for forty one years. But I did mainly

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<v Speaker 2>divorce in criminal law the last twenty two Before that,

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<v Speaker 2>I investigated arsons for insurance companies. I tried car accident

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<v Speaker 2>cases or when someone was hurt or when someone was

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<v Speaker 2>hurt on the job. I would try those cases.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, but that those are like, isn't there a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of fraud with those cases?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes? And I have some crazy stories about fraud in

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<v Speaker 2>those cases and when we discovered them, and crazy things.

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<v Speaker 2>And it looks like you have a great cat, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>which goes along with my bad puppy that's underneath me

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<v Speaker 2>now tangled up. Yeah, no, this is my my kiddy

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<v Speaker 2>co host. Yes, there's nothing greater than a good cat.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean, I wouldn't say he's a he's a

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<v Speaker 3>good cat, you know, he has great agent good, he.

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<v Speaker 1>Has his moments. I mean he's a he's a big

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<v Speaker 1>red ginger cat. So, and he definitely has that temperament.

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<v Speaker 1>Although there is something about gingers. I mean, my daughter's ginger,

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<v Speaker 1>my axe is a ginger, my wife is a ginger,

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<v Speaker 1>my cat is a ginger. It's almost like I have

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<v Speaker 1>a type.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he developed a taste.

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<v Speaker 1>I did. I did.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's.

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<v Speaker 1>Not not always, not always to my my benefits. I

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<v Speaker 1>have to say, you know that Red had temperaments that

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<v Speaker 1>just like that fire exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>It could be terrible good.

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<v Speaker 1>Terrible, terrible good, terribly good, Yeah, good, yes, terrible, not.

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<v Speaker 2>Terribly good, terrible book. It's terrible, terrible and it's good.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, Yes, I like that. I'm gonna yes, I'm going

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<v Speaker 1>to use that from now long. Yes, terrible goods. It's

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<v Speaker 1>terrible and it's good.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>So you have also written a number of books all

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<v Speaker 1>having to do with like are the old crime stories

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<v Speaker 1>or crime ish stories.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, they are faco crime thrillers. And it's really a

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<v Speaker 2>test of a challenge between two people in the real

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<v Speaker 2>world chess battle they go through trying to get each other,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a struggle between through the books of these

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<v Speaker 2>two people, a East Texas detective called O c Sim's

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<v Speaker 2>there's also the comedic relief for the book because there's

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<v Speaker 2>things about it that are so weird. But these are

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<v Speaker 2>things that I've come with cross Like Oci has a mustache,

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<v Speaker 2>and you may have seen a guy with a mustache focus.

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<v Speaker 2>It doesn't move with his mouth. It moves separately and independent,

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<v Speaker 2>low in his mouth. So as he's talking, his mass

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<v Speaker 2>doing one thing, the mustache does something else. It's the

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<v Speaker 2>weirdest thing I ever saw. I had to put it

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<v Speaker 2>on my character. Have you ever known someone like that?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't think I have known someone like that, but

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<v Speaker 1>I can. I can definitely envision It's it's it's hard

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<v Speaker 1>to it's hard to focus when someone like that is,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, speaking to you, like you're trying to listen,

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<v Speaker 1>but you know if his mouth and his mustache are

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<v Speaker 1>doing two like you know, have two different lives.

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<v Speaker 2>And I didn't want to focus when I'm met this guy,

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<v Speaker 2>and actually he's like a good friend of mine. Now

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<v Speaker 2>you don't really want to focus. He can fort to

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<v Speaker 2>watch it because it's so ridiculous.

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<v Speaker 1>So are most of your stories pulled? From real life,

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<v Speaker 1>from the experiences that you have had.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, let me tell you, so you know, in your life,

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<v Speaker 2>at least for me, most people are pretty close to

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<v Speaker 2>the saying. But every once in a while you come

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<v Speaker 2>across those characters that are just completely district than everyone else,

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<v Speaker 2>and you remember those people. There are few, but when

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<v Speaker 2>you come across one, you know it. Yeah, And these

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<v Speaker 2>people are people with characters in these books are based

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<v Speaker 2>upon those people in my life I've come across I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>oh my god, that's somebody who that you got to

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<v Speaker 2>write about. You got to have a character like that,

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<v Speaker 2>like oc Sims and the guy with the lustache, And

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<v Speaker 2>there's all sorts of ridiculous things about this guy, like

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<v Speaker 2>have you ever known I know it all? That actually

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<v Speaker 2>does know a whole lot of stuff about a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of things. But it's just a complete know it all

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<v Speaker 2>about everything.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah that I hate to say it, but that was

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<v Speaker 1>my brother. But the and the bad part was indeed

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<v Speaker 1>that most of the time when he lectured me on things,

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<v Speaker 1>lecturing is his older brother. I hate to admit it,

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<v Speaker 1>but more times than not, he was actually right about it.

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<v Speaker 2>On a second, let me get my dog. She's tangled up.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh dear, Yeah, no, of course, of course that is

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<v Speaker 1>perfectly fine. I'm lucky to have Timmy just laying on

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<v Speaker 1>my on my lap, making sure that I am comfortable

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<v Speaker 1>well as a cat.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess thirteen a thirteen year old golden retriever that

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<v Speaker 2>his that's insane.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, most golden retrievers are. There's that's why there

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<v Speaker 1>is such a thing as golden retriever energy. It'szy no,

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<v Speaker 1>but the the no with all that. That used to

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<v Speaker 1>be my younger brother. He was three three almost four

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<v Speaker 1>years younger than me. But when he lectured me on things,

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<v Speaker 1>because I used to be the rowdy one, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the one who just does things, and he used to

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<v Speaker 1>be the chronic overthinker. He was also, like always very

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<v Speaker 1>very observant, So when he lectured me on things, when

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<v Speaker 1>he schooled me on things, I didn't want to listen

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<v Speaker 1>at that time. But he usually was right about it,

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<v Speaker 1>and I hate to admit that, and I hated to

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<v Speaker 1>admit that when he did. But yeah, I told my brother.

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<v Speaker 2>It is not was it not correct that your brother

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes would fall victim because he was in no at

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<v Speaker 2>all the people that we could fall him.

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<v Speaker 1>He was too observant for that.

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<v Speaker 2>I was. He was.

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<v Speaker 1>He got lucky. He got lucky when it when it

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<v Speaker 1>comes to that. I mean that is not to say that,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, he didn't make any mistakes. Sometimes because of

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<v Speaker 1>the chronic overthinking, he waited to do things that he

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<v Speaker 1>should have done, yes a long time ago, but no,

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<v Speaker 1>he was too observant for that. So really like kudos

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<v Speaker 1>to him for that, because I never did. Actually, I

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<v Speaker 1>was usually the one who was getting well, getting fools. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't want to say getting fools, but my genders

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<v Speaker 1>they are, yeah, there's something else. I don't know, they're yeah. So.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't know if you've ever met a psychopath

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<v Speaker 2>or a sociopath. I don't know if you've ever known one.

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<v Speaker 1>I know, do I have two kits with one?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, one of the other character in my book

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<v Speaker 2>in the Battle the Life Chess Battle against Osean SAMs

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<v Speaker 2>is Marylyn, who is a psychopath. I'm known, dude. She's

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<v Speaker 2>a merger of the two that I've known, and they're

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<v Speaker 2>in a struggle on can he catch her or can

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<v Speaker 2>she ruin me? Which one's going to happen first. And

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<v Speaker 2>in the second book in the Netherlands, have you ever

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<v Speaker 2>written out a hurricane anywhere?

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<v Speaker 1>I've never experienced one, thankfully, so I've written out five hurricanes.

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<v Speaker 2>When you go through a hurricane, you see and do

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<v Speaker 2>stuff you wouldn't you would never believe, like man host

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<v Speaker 2>blowing off and water spewing out two stories high like

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<v Speaker 2>a fountain, or walking down the middle of a street

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<v Speaker 2>waste time, floodwater. And let me tell you, there's nothing

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<v Speaker 2>nastier than fly to God with the gutters spewing on

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<v Speaker 2>each side of you like a fountain. Okay, and I

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<v Speaker 2>put my second book, Murdered by Storm. It's a psycho

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<v Speaker 2>murder thriller daring a hurricane. Look, so I wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>write I have a helicopter coming out with right now, naturally,

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<v Speaker 2>but because I wanted to write about all the amazing

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<v Speaker 2>things I saw in a hurricane. I'm very sorry about that.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't control air control.

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<v Speaker 1>No, it's it's fine, show up on my audio.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's decoate. And also, you know, we live in

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<v Speaker 2>a very divided outfield world. Well, people don't think that

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<v Speaker 2>they can connect. But if you go through a hurricane,

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<v Speaker 2>you see people helping total strangers. They don't care what

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<v Speaker 2>you believe. You're religion, your grace. They don't care about

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<v Speaker 2>any all of that. Someone's in trouble and you see

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<v Speaker 2>other people that don't even know them putting their lives

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<v Speaker 2>at risk. They're helping them, and that changes your life.

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<v Speaker 2>It changes your life, and I wanted to write about

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<v Speaker 2>that too.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to say a big thank you to the

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<v Speaker 1>sponsor of today's episodes. Bear Knuckles, the best leather gloves

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<v Speaker 1>those kind of gloves. They don't feel right, they hurt

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<v Speaker 1>after working with them for a while, so that's why

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<v Speaker 1>of your entire purchase. Thank you to Bare Knuckles for

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<v Speaker 1>sponsoring this episode.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, here in the Netherlands.

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<v Speaker 1>We now here the Netherlands, we know all about flooding,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, since at least half, if not over half,

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<v Speaker 1>of our country is below sea level. It's a few

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<v Speaker 1>days ago. Actually it was another the the remembrance of

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<v Speaker 1>the the great floods, great breaking of them of the

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<v Speaker 1>dikes that happened in nineteen fifty three. It was the

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<v Speaker 1>the single largest disaster, natural disaster that has ever happened

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<v Speaker 1>in the in the Netherlands, in the province of Zeeland.

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<v Speaker 1>It was, you know after that that we well, we

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<v Speaker 1>as a nation dedicated ourselves to combat the water and

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<v Speaker 1>make sure that you know, something like that never happens again.

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<v Speaker 1>That is not to say it didn't happen again, it

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<v Speaker 1>was a few years ago at another I did not know.

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<v Speaker 2>I did not know the dikes ever broke in. Then,

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<v Speaker 2>well I didn't know that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, I believe it was the just the natural ones.

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<v Speaker 1>Still like we hadn't had the great like the great

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<v Speaker 1>works that we put in place to to prevent that.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, water, especially for us Dutch, it's been our

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<v Speaker 1>greatest ally and our greatest greatest enemy at the same time.

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<v Speaker 1>So flooding and disasters like that, we are well familiar

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<v Speaker 1>with it.

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<v Speaker 2>So I mean, so you know about that and the

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<v Speaker 2>thing that's struggling During the last hurricane that I wrote out,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was Hurricane Harving in Houston that crept toward

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<v Speaker 2>the city for two weeks, everyone knowing it was coming,

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<v Speaker 2>and then it sat on top of Houston for five days.

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<v Speaker 2>So and Houston got fifty two inches of brain. And

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<v Speaker 2>I lived in a high rise downtown right across the

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<v Speaker 2>park to where the refuge center was, so thousands of

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<v Speaker 2>refugees were there, everybody with nothing, their homes had been destroyed,

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<v Speaker 2>And so I spent the week of the hurricane walking

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<v Speaker 2>across the park during the hurricane and helping the refugees.

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<v Speaker 2>Then after the Hurricane past I spent weeks helping people

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<v Speaker 2>that didn't have anybody to help them cut their homes

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<v Speaker 2>so they can get ready for repair, and it changed

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<v Speaker 2>my life. It was one of the worst things I

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<v Speaker 2>ever went through and one of the greatest things Simon

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<v Speaker 2>went through. It's like, you know, Carl Jung writes about

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<v Speaker 2>you can only reach higher levels of consciousness through catastrophe,

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<v Speaker 2>and I can tell you that for me, I discovered

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<v Speaker 2>parts of my subconscious that I didn't know was there

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<v Speaker 2>during that catastrophe. That parts like I joked about having

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<v Speaker 2>a lack of empathy not during that time. That opened

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<v Speaker 2>up whole new windows for him because people needed help

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<v Speaker 2>and it was life changing. I wanted to write about

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<v Speaker 2>that too. And I know it sounds weird writing about

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<v Speaker 2>a psycho crime thriller during the hurricane and writing about

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<v Speaker 2>the good things about people, but that's what I wrote about.

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<v Speaker 2>Houston is a very it's a very international city. I

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<v Speaker 2>know you wouldn't really think about that the stereotype of

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<v Speaker 2>Texas what it would be, but there's one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>sixty languages spoken in Houston. Sixty yes, So it's the

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<v Speaker 2>greatest international food you could ever find. Anywhere is in Houston, Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>I've only found two things in the whole world in

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<v Speaker 2>my travels that you cannot get in Houston, and that

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<v Speaker 2>is great black fee prawns. You can't get that here.

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<v Speaker 2>And you can get a great Korean salad which has

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<v Speaker 2>a live octopus on it. You can't get that in Houston.

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<v Speaker 2>Those are the only two things I've ever found you

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<v Speaker 2>can't get in Houston almost as good, are better than

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<v Speaker 2>where it is locally. Wow, you see all these different

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<v Speaker 2>races helping, risking their lives to help each other change

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<v Speaker 2>in your lives. Yeah, just seeing it. The other part

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<v Speaker 2>of it's even bigger.

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<v Speaker 1>And that is true human nature. That is when you

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<v Speaker 1>can see that the divide between racist nationalities, that it's

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<v Speaker 1>all I don't want to say made up, but pushed

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<v Speaker 1>upon us, forced upon us, maybe even because Yeah, it

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<v Speaker 1>is in times when the shadow of the world presents itself,

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<v Speaker 1>the true human nature and the true true light in

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<v Speaker 1>human nature shines. And I I do like the the

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<v Speaker 1>Youngian concept of that because I I mean, we've all

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<v Speaker 1>gone through through harsh times. We've all had our shadow too,

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<v Speaker 1>to get to know and to integrate into to ourselves

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<v Speaker 1>and so.

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<v Speaker 2>You are a reader, Carl, you do, really I am.

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<v Speaker 1>I am familiar with with his his works.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, not many people are. It's pretty tough step to y,

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00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:05.160
<v Speaker 2>but I do love it myself. Yeah, but that's that's

318
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:07.319
<v Speaker 2>this sort of thing that I wanted to include in

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<v Speaker 2>the Blood. So that's part of the re And also

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<v Speaker 2>as you dry, as you live through one of these hurricanes,

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<v Speaker 2>the thing that struck me is that there's nothing that

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<v Speaker 2>wops away DNA evidence like floodwater, so and police are

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<v Speaker 2>very busy with other things during hurricanes. It's a perfect

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<v Speaker 2>time to commit a crap.

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<v Speaker 1>It would actually Yeah. Yeah, So that's so much is

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<v Speaker 1>so much is happening, so much destruction, and so much

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<v Speaker 1>filth is flying around, floating around. I mean, for you know,

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<v Speaker 1>anyone watching, anyone listening, please don't take this as a tip,

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<v Speaker 1>you know to this is.

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<v Speaker 2>For entertainment purposes, only.

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<v Speaker 1>Entertainments and educational to not do it. No, but wow,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean that must have made your work lot's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot harder as well.

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<v Speaker 2>No, it made it much better better, yes, because there's

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00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:11.160
<v Speaker 2>nothing like catastrophes that creates jobs for lawyers because it's

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00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:15.079
<v Speaker 2>nothing but disputes afterwards. So as far as is my

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<v Speaker 2>practice is a lawyer, there's nothing that nothing like that,

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<v Speaker 2>because there's always disputes afterwards. Just for example, all the

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00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:29.759
<v Speaker 2>construction work done, because almost every home of two or

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<v Speaker 2>three million people were severely damaged and had to have

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<v Speaker 2>repair work done, and disputes occur and litigate it occurs.

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<v Speaker 2>It just goes on and on and on.

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<v Speaker 1>For anyone who runs a construction company, those are golden times.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's a sad truth that you have people, construction

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<v Speaker 2>people from all over the United States rushing to Los

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<v Speaker 2>Angeles right now because of what's apple. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they see a disaster and they get dollar signs

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<v Speaker 1>in their eyes.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, It brings that the worst and the best in people. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>but I got to tell you I saw a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of wonderful things about people during that during thirteen Hardy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, good thing too. And what this is currently

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<v Speaker 1>going on like the latest disaster, It don't it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>getting hard to keep up with what happened now or

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<v Speaker 1>you know who happened now since the whole world is

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<v Speaker 1>in panic, whole world's and kales. But I even saw

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<v Speaker 1>that the Amish came to help and started building affordable homes,

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<v Speaker 1>even at a fraction of the cost and just a

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<v Speaker 1>small fraction of the time that it would take any

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<v Speaker 1>other construction company or government institution to build those homes.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's that's also you know, when you see the

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<v Speaker 1>communities that usually separate themselves from from society, from the

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<v Speaker 1>outside world, when they come to help, they mean well,

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<v Speaker 1>they do good.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, It's like the seakh community in Houston. There's maybe

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<v Speaker 2>a million South Asian people that live a little Houston

367
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<v Speaker 2>Greater Houston area and the Sea community is a large

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<v Speaker 2>community within it. Usually they keep themselves separate. But I

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<v Speaker 2>can tell you I was so inspiring to see my

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<v Speaker 2>friends that are risk themselves so many times. I actually

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<v Speaker 2>write about that in the book too. I have Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>a couple of Sea brothers that risk their lives to

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<v Speaker 2>save Maryland, the antagonists of the book during the flood,

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<v Speaker 2>right after she had done something incredibly despicable on that

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<v Speaker 2>of course, of course, right, I mean a psychopath. What

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<v Speaker 2>do you think.

377
00:23:54.400 --> 00:23:56.559
<v Speaker 1>Would it be? Old Sunshine and ruses? Of course?

378
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<v Speaker 2>And I got to tell you it made the high

379
00:24:00.759 --> 00:24:03.279
<v Speaker 2>rise I lived in there mious because I write about

380
00:24:03.359 --> 00:24:07.880
<v Speaker 2>the high rise in the book. Dude. During the hurricane.

381
00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:10.720
<v Speaker 2>They're like, you're not killing anybody here, are you? And

382
00:24:10.759 --> 00:24:12.079
<v Speaker 2>I was like, you don't have to wait and soon.

383
00:24:12.680 --> 00:24:15.279
<v Speaker 2>Oh man, is there anything that you have not written

384
00:24:15.319 --> 00:24:18.640
<v Speaker 2>into your books? Well, I must say during the thing

385
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:24.000
<v Speaker 2>that shocks me the most about my readers that follow

386
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:30.119
<v Speaker 2>me is they can read about people die but don't

387
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:32.680
<v Speaker 2>kill an animal. It makes them mad.

388
00:24:33.400 --> 00:24:36.160
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, that is That is such a common trope.

389
00:24:36.400 --> 00:24:40.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I have a miss dog in the second book

390
00:24:42.079 --> 00:24:45.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of takes over the some of the scenes of

391
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.440
<v Speaker 2>the book because that's the way dogs are, right, especially

392
00:24:48.480 --> 00:24:51.160
<v Speaker 2>as the writer when uh, you know, you're writing a

393
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:53.880
<v Speaker 2>character and they start becoming more and more dimensional, so

394
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:57.599
<v Speaker 2>they start taking over the story and you're like, that's

395
00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:00.200
<v Speaker 2>not what you're supposed to do in my outline. But

396
00:25:00.279 --> 00:25:03.559
<v Speaker 2>that's not what they do because now they become alive.

397
00:25:04.839 --> 00:25:07.920
<v Speaker 2>And I got to tell you, my editors and my

398
00:25:08.039 --> 00:25:12.440
<v Speaker 2>publishers an't threatening me. Don't you hurt that dog? Don't

399
00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:15.680
<v Speaker 2>you hurt that dog? As they were reading chapters. Of

400
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.240
<v Speaker 2>course you'll have to find out yourself is a reader

401
00:25:18.279 --> 00:25:21.559
<v Speaker 2>or what happens, but that is part of the story.

402
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:26.400
<v Speaker 1>It is interesting how we so often seem to attach

403
00:25:26.519 --> 00:25:30.480
<v Speaker 1>more value to the lives of our of our pets,

404
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:34.839
<v Speaker 1>whether they be you know, dogs, cats, hamsters. I've seen

405
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:37.920
<v Speaker 1>it in so many, so many movies as well, and

406
00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:39.920
<v Speaker 1>you'll see so many people say it is like, you know,

407
00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:43.079
<v Speaker 1>I can I can watch people dying on screen. That

408
00:25:43.240 --> 00:25:48.039
<v Speaker 1>is perfectly fine. But when a beloved pet, for example,

409
00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.319
<v Speaker 1>is in danger, that's when they're you know, most emotional.

410
00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:55.599
<v Speaker 1>I guess the greatest example that I know is I

411
00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:58.720
<v Speaker 1>Am Legends. I believe it is with Will Smith the

412
00:25:58.759 --> 00:26:04.039
<v Speaker 1>whole like Zombie vir movie, so many people seen at

413
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:08.839
<v Speaker 1>the near the final act of the movie when the

414
00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:14.759
<v Speaker 1>dog does indeed become infected. It broke so many people

415
00:26:15.880 --> 00:26:19.799
<v Speaker 1>because I don't know, you know, it's his pet, it's

416
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:23.240
<v Speaker 1>his companion. And when he you know, blows himself up,

417
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:26.359
<v Speaker 1>I mean, yeah, okay, it's it's a heroic deed, but oh,

418
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:27.599
<v Speaker 1>you know the dog and.

419
00:26:27.559 --> 00:26:32.559
<v Speaker 2>It's so yeah, it's funny. Fact in fact, forgot my

420
00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:36.880
<v Speaker 2>point on that. But that was that becomes and they

421
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:40.759
<v Speaker 2>become a very strong character in these buds. And I

422
00:26:40.839 --> 00:26:43.279
<v Speaker 2>have a little girl on the book, and it made

423
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.720
<v Speaker 2>my publishers and editors very nervous, and the story went on,

424
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:51.720
<v Speaker 2>but it was a real challenge. But I'll say in

425
00:26:51.720 --> 00:26:54.960
<v Speaker 2>that book, in the first book Murder for Me, Maryland

426
00:26:55.519 --> 00:26:58.559
<v Speaker 2>is able to get men to do what she wants.

427
00:26:58.680 --> 00:27:01.559
<v Speaker 2>This is she is not a beautiful woman, She's just

428
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:04.839
<v Speaker 2>an okay looking woman, but she's aided. She's able to

429
00:27:04.920 --> 00:27:11.400
<v Speaker 2>do it man to do she and seth sets. I

430
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:14.079
<v Speaker 2>had so many by readers say how did she get

431
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:16.680
<v Speaker 2>men to do that? And why she who she is?

432
00:27:17.319 --> 00:27:20.440
<v Speaker 2>So I had to work very hard in the next book,

433
00:27:20.519 --> 00:27:25.359
<v Speaker 2>murder by Storm, to write from her perspective, to explain

434
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:29.680
<v Speaker 2>where's she's from, why is she the way she is,

435
00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:33.119
<v Speaker 2>and how does that work with me? And that was

436
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:37.720
<v Speaker 2>one of the real intellectual challenges murder by Storm is

437
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:44.759
<v Speaker 2>to write convincingly organically from the perspective of a woman.

438
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:48.519
<v Speaker 2>Because I had to answer those questions. I can absolutely

439
00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:52.279
<v Speaker 2>understand that that's you know, it's tricky too, you know,

440
00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:58.839
<v Speaker 2>especially in these well more uh, let's say politically correct times.

441
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:02.880
<v Speaker 2>As a man, to know right from a woman's perspective,

442
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:06.319
<v Speaker 2>or even read from a woman's perspective, it can be

443
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:09.920
<v Speaker 2>tricky because men and women, I mean, we are very different,

444
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:11.440
<v Speaker 2>we think very different, we're wired.

445
00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:16.400
<v Speaker 1>It's incredibly different. So, yeah, that's that's difficult, especially when

446
00:28:16.440 --> 00:28:20.240
<v Speaker 1>your female lead is a psychopath. That's even.

447
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:24.480
<v Speaker 2>And it had to be organic, had to be natural.

448
00:28:25.000 --> 00:28:28.400
<v Speaker 2>So it was I was a lot of rewrites, a

449
00:28:28.440 --> 00:28:31.119
<v Speaker 2>lot of work. But every book that I write, I

450
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:36.720
<v Speaker 2>have some real intellectual challenge because that's how I motivated myself.

451
00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:43.359
<v Speaker 2>What is my change to go beyond my abilities nets?

452
00:28:44.039 --> 00:28:47.240
<v Speaker 2>And in that book, it was to write to answer

453
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:50.799
<v Speaker 2>the questions from her perspective to a point where the

454
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:52.519
<v Speaker 2>reader says, Okay, I get it, I know why I

455
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:54.759
<v Speaker 2>sees the way she is. Maybe i'd be that way too.

456
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:02.200
<v Speaker 1>Understanding the understanding the villain, empathizing with the villain. That's

457
00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:05.240
<v Speaker 1>if you are able to write like that, that is amazing.

458
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:06.839
<v Speaker 1>It's it's hard, but it's amazing.

459
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:11.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, but a character that's not a character that's

460
00:29:11.480 --> 00:29:14.000
<v Speaker 2>just black and white is not interesting to me. I'm

461
00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:18.759
<v Speaker 2>not interested in that. No, Well, the layers of life

462
00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:23.119
<v Speaker 2>in a character, it's very hard. It's not done. If

463
00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:24.039
<v Speaker 2>you can't do.

464
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:27.359
<v Speaker 1>That, true, that's true. If if it's all just black

465
00:29:27.400 --> 00:29:35.160
<v Speaker 1>and white, I mean that's not realistic either. I mean boring, boring, Yeah, exactly,

466
00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:37.960
<v Speaker 1>it's no challenge.

467
00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:39.119
<v Speaker 2>It's not entertaining.

468
00:29:40.039 --> 00:29:42.960
<v Speaker 1>And we all know people like that in real life

469
00:29:43.240 --> 00:29:45.640
<v Speaker 1>as well, or we have heard of people like that

470
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:49.359
<v Speaker 1>who just you know, try something and succeed right away,

471
00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:54.359
<v Speaker 1>and it is it irks people when that happens. You know,

472
00:29:54.480 --> 00:29:57.759
<v Speaker 1>everyone is always you know, trying and fighting for the

473
00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:00.119
<v Speaker 1>things that they that they want, for the things that

474
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:04.319
<v Speaker 1>they need, and then somebody just try something, does something

475
00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:08.960
<v Speaker 1>and succeeds. I don't like you, you know.

476
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:13.240
<v Speaker 2>And in my next book, murder by Trial, that's the

477
00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:16.279
<v Speaker 2>next book. Coming as to what I'm writing now, have

478
00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:19.279
<v Speaker 2>you ever read a Confederacy of the Donsins It was

479
00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:24.559
<v Speaker 2>a Politzerprise winning book. And the piece there is a

480
00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:30.279
<v Speaker 2>character in that book so unforgettable and so loathsome at

481
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:34.039
<v Speaker 2>the same time that I was part of my challenge.

482
00:30:34.119 --> 00:30:37.160
<v Speaker 2>Can I write a character so multi dimensional and so

483
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:41.000
<v Speaker 2>loathsome and at the same time so unforgettable that the

484
00:30:41.039 --> 00:30:44.359
<v Speaker 2>reader cannot put the book now because they gotta find

485
00:30:44.519 --> 00:30:48.799
<v Speaker 2>read what's next to this character? That's my challenge. So see,

486
00:30:48.839 --> 00:30:52.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to the next level of trying to write

487
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:55.079
<v Speaker 2>a character that's interesting.

488
00:30:55.400 --> 00:31:00.440
<v Speaker 1>That is a great challenge. Indeed, that is a great challenge. Indeed,

489
00:31:01.559 --> 00:31:06.119
<v Speaker 1>and you have written at least one short story about

490
00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:10.119
<v Speaker 1>somebody tried to try to curse you, try to like,

491
00:31:10.359 --> 00:31:15.400
<v Speaker 1>who do who do curse you? And you said right

492
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.759
<v Speaker 1>before we started recording that it was actually a funny story.

493
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:23.720
<v Speaker 1>Now I have to say, I don't really associate curses

494
00:31:23.880 --> 00:31:27.640
<v Speaker 1>or being cursed with, you know, funny, unless it's a

495
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:33.559
<v Speaker 1>Disney story perhaps, But even that, if we're talking early Disney,

496
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:36.240
<v Speaker 1>even that wasn't really funny. So how did how did

497
00:31:36.279 --> 00:31:36.960
<v Speaker 1>that come to be?

498
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:37.160
<v Speaker 5>Like?

499
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:40.480
<v Speaker 1>What did you do that? Well, the other one thought

500
00:31:40.599 --> 00:31:45.240
<v Speaker 1>it was necessary and appropriate to try and curse you

501
00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:48.160
<v Speaker 1>because you don't seem like the type of guy who

502
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:49.400
<v Speaker 1>deserves a curse.

503
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:55.359
<v Speaker 2>To me, Well, you don't know, Lee, That is true.

504
00:31:55.759 --> 00:31:56.400
<v Speaker 1>That is true.

505
00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:59.640
<v Speaker 2>I must say I've done so many podcasts no one

506
00:31:59.720 --> 00:32:03.799
<v Speaker 2>said this question. No one's done that research. All my

507
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:07.519
<v Speaker 2>compliments are to you, sir, that you would see that

508
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:10.559
<v Speaker 2>and ask me about that. When you first asked me

509
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:14.519
<v Speaker 2>before the show, I was a little shocked and very impressed.

510
00:32:14.759 --> 00:32:17.000
<v Speaker 2>So I just wanted to give you my compliment.

511
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:17.680
<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you.

512
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:25.319
<v Speaker 2>When in meetings in Huston, Texas, when the oil prices crashed,

513
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:29.920
<v Speaker 2>people found themselves underwater in their mortgages, and one of

514
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.079
<v Speaker 2>the ways people would solve that problem is they would

515
00:32:33.119 --> 00:32:35.640
<v Speaker 2>burn their house down and try to collect the old

516
00:32:35.720 --> 00:32:40.119
<v Speaker 2>shirts pay off the mortgage classic And I was hired

517
00:32:40.119 --> 00:32:45.640
<v Speaker 2>by insurance companies to investigate the arsons proved that the

518
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:48.839
<v Speaker 2>insurance had burned their house down, and then the insurance

519
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:53.759
<v Speaker 2>company wouldn't put So we're talking about very desperate people

520
00:32:54.319 --> 00:32:58.839
<v Speaker 2>in financial trouble, so desperate that they would burn their

521
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:04.160
<v Speaker 2>house down, and I was the one trying to destroy

522
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:08.920
<v Speaker 2>their plans. So that is why I was someone they

523
00:33:09.000 --> 00:33:13.319
<v Speaker 2>wanted to do that too. Now I didn't know Houston

524
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:17.839
<v Speaker 2>is very close to New Orleans. After Hurricane Katrina, New Orleans,

525
00:33:18.119 --> 00:33:21.960
<v Speaker 2>a lot of the population of New Orleans moved to Houston.

526
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:26.720
<v Speaker 2>Almost has one hundred year connection with New Orleans inlo

527
00:33:27.559 --> 00:33:31.319
<v Speaker 2>So Houston and New Orleans is very connected. And so

528
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:35.519
<v Speaker 2>I had I had a case where a lady had

529
00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:39.599
<v Speaker 2>allegedly done down her house and I was hired to

530
00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:43.599
<v Speaker 2>investigate it, and she was very frightened. Now, one of

531
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:48.480
<v Speaker 2>the things I didn't know about Voodoo and the Houston area.

532
00:33:48.599 --> 00:33:53.400
<v Speaker 2>It's not called vooboo, it's called hugo. They pronounced it differently.

533
00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:58.640
<v Speaker 2>It's called Houdin here, not Boody. And so they actually

534
00:33:58.880 --> 00:34:03.279
<v Speaker 2>made a doll of me and somehow stole some possession

535
00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:05.359
<v Speaker 2>of mine to make it a part of the doll

536
00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:09.360
<v Speaker 2>is that's part of it. But their problems, their their

537
00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:12.559
<v Speaker 2>problem was, I didn't know about it, So how are

538
00:34:12.559 --> 00:34:15.679
<v Speaker 2>they gonna scare me into not investigating if I don't

539
00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:20.280
<v Speaker 2>know about it? Right? Because because whatever it is about

540
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:25.000
<v Speaker 2>who do it really is to scare someone. So they

541
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:27.440
<v Speaker 2>had they had to figure out, how are they going

542
00:34:27.800 --> 00:34:31.000
<v Speaker 2>to let me know that she's has a dollar means

543
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:34.280
<v Speaker 2>he's doing who did? So she actually had one of

544
00:34:34.280 --> 00:34:39.280
<v Speaker 2>her friends call me at the office one day. And

545
00:34:39.320 --> 00:34:44.519
<v Speaker 2>this is when I was young, very smart, eleochy, brass lawyer.

546
00:34:45.199 --> 00:34:49.320
<v Speaker 2>All the stereotypes of a young nineteen eighties lawyer was

547
00:34:49.559 --> 00:34:53.480
<v Speaker 2>every stereotype, like if you want, if you've ever watched

548
00:34:53.639 --> 00:34:58.280
<v Speaker 2>the movie American Psycho, there's brash stuff in that movie

549
00:34:58.679 --> 00:35:02.559
<v Speaker 2>that we were doing. They put in that movie. It's

550
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:05.440
<v Speaker 2>like I can tell young men now, yeah we did that,

551
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:08.719
<v Speaker 2>And they're like, really, I mean it's.

552
00:35:08.599 --> 00:35:11.719
<v Speaker 1>The nineteen eighties. Everything everything goes in the nineteen eighties.

553
00:35:11.800 --> 00:35:15.239
<v Speaker 2>It was crazy, not from the world. We look at now.

554
00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:18.800
<v Speaker 2>But anyway, so she called me and she was very frightened.

555
00:35:18.840 --> 00:35:20.920
<v Speaker 2>She was like, are you alone? I need to tell

556
00:35:20.960 --> 00:35:24.039
<v Speaker 2>you something very dangerous. She was sad. I did very

557
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:27.440
<v Speaker 2>worried boy. She said, so and so had made up

558
00:35:27.599 --> 00:35:30.039
<v Speaker 2>hoodoo do all of you and you're in great danger

559
00:35:30.119 --> 00:35:32.239
<v Speaker 2>and you need to know about it. She went on

560
00:35:32.360 --> 00:35:36.519
<v Speaker 2>and on about the danger I was in. Well, I've

561
00:35:36.519 --> 00:35:39.559
<v Speaker 2>been married forty and I got married on Friday the thirteen?

562
00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:47.199
<v Speaker 2>Am I just superstitious? Mike Michael said into office. I'm

563
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:50.679
<v Speaker 2>just a little stiffish. But so you get married on

564
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Friday the thirteenth, you're not superstitious. So I was who

565
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.880
<v Speaker 2>I was then, the brash young lawyer. So she when

566
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:03.119
<v Speaker 2>finished her whole pitch, so I would be scared, so

567
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:08.920
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't investigate. My first response was, when she finishes,

568
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:11.360
<v Speaker 2>can I buy that doll from her? Because I want

569
00:36:11.400 --> 00:36:15.320
<v Speaker 2>that doll. I would left hand that on my desk.

570
00:36:15.599 --> 00:36:19.239
<v Speaker 2>She would She just hung up on me. Really yeah wow,

571
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:23.039
<v Speaker 2>because it didn't work right because I wasn't just afraid.

572
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:24.480
<v Speaker 1>But that sucks, all right.

573
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:27.840
<v Speaker 2>So the joke is that I wanted to buy the

574
00:36:27.880 --> 00:36:32.440
<v Speaker 2>doll when they finished doing who did because not because

575
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:34.960
<v Speaker 2>I was scared, not because I wanted to destroyed her,

576
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:37.400
<v Speaker 2>because I wanted to, hope put it on my desk

577
00:36:37.440 --> 00:36:40.480
<v Speaker 2>because I thought that that would be so great. Years later,

578
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:47.599
<v Speaker 2>someone shot two twenty two bullet hose through my conference window,

579
00:36:48.920 --> 00:36:51.800
<v Speaker 2>and when the office was going to fix them, I said, no,

580
00:36:51.880 --> 00:36:54.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't want you to replace the window. I want

581
00:36:54.360 --> 00:36:57.880
<v Speaker 2>you to just put that plastic stuff and seal the host.

582
00:36:57.920 --> 00:37:00.800
<v Speaker 2>I want those bullet hose to stay there, because whenever

583
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:03.119
<v Speaker 2>I had new clients come in to talk to me,

584
00:37:03.119 --> 00:37:05.639
<v Speaker 2>I always would showing the bullet O. See you're hiring

585
00:37:05.639 --> 00:37:07.320
<v Speaker 2>the lawyer that even gets shot at.

586
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:10.840
<v Speaker 1>Wow, So you were using it for bragging rights.

587
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:11.400
<v Speaker 2>Really exactly.

588
00:37:12.679 --> 00:37:15.199
<v Speaker 1>I mean I get that. I get that. And just

589
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:18.920
<v Speaker 1>having a whodo or who doo doll of yourself on

590
00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:22.400
<v Speaker 1>your desk, I mean, yeah, that's that's a good way

591
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:26.480
<v Speaker 1>to show to clients or potential clients like see, you know,

592
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:30.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean business, I am business. I mean I have

593
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:33.199
<v Speaker 1>proof right here on my desk. I'm doing such a

594
00:37:33.360 --> 00:37:35.760
<v Speaker 1>such a good job. I'm being so thorough that people

595
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:37.760
<v Speaker 1>are even trying to curse me.

596
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:42.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I liked it. I never got that doll though.

597
00:37:43.039 --> 00:37:47.119
<v Speaker 1>Oh that's a shame. Yeah, that's a shame would be

598
00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:49.599
<v Speaker 1>in I was thinking like it would be like a

599
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.840
<v Speaker 1>cool Christmas ornament as well to like to hang up

600
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:53.440
<v Speaker 1>in the tree.

601
00:37:53.840 --> 00:37:56.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, my wife really doesn't agree with my dark sense

602
00:37:56.760 --> 00:38:00.559
<v Speaker 2>of humor about It's got really into my dark sense

603
00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:03.119
<v Speaker 2>of him where It's like when I was writing Murder

604
00:38:03.159 --> 00:38:09.840
<v Speaker 2>for Me and I was writing about Maryland. If you're

605
00:38:09.840 --> 00:38:13.840
<v Speaker 2>an author, you've become buried in your characters. You're obsessed

606
00:38:13.920 --> 00:38:17.559
<v Speaker 2>with your characters. That's the only way they can become alive.

607
00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:21.840
<v Speaker 2>And I remember what actually, when I first started writing it,

608
00:38:21.880 --> 00:38:26.039
<v Speaker 2>she had a different name. So in my sleep one night,

609
00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:28.119
<v Speaker 2>she came to me in my sleep. I know this

610
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:30.599
<v Speaker 2>sounds weird, but it's shirt. It's like she grabbed me

611
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:32.760
<v Speaker 2>by the collar and said, that's not my name. My

612
00:38:32.840 --> 00:38:35.599
<v Speaker 2>name is Maryland. So I woke up the next morning,

613
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:38.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I was talking about life. I said, Maryland

614
00:38:38.920 --> 00:38:41.079
<v Speaker 2>came to me in my sleep last night, and she's like,

615
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:44.000
<v Speaker 2>who the hell is Maryland? Who are you dreaming about?

616
00:38:44.280 --> 00:38:47.800
<v Speaker 2>I said, this is my character, the character, the antagonist,

617
00:38:48.000 --> 00:38:50.880
<v Speaker 2>the psychopath in my books. She came to me, Majory.

618
00:38:50.920 --> 00:38:54.280
<v Speaker 2>She was like, don't talk about that anymore. You creaked

619
00:38:54.320 --> 00:38:59.920
<v Speaker 2>me out. So she doesn't really agree with my dark sense.

620
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:03.599
<v Speaker 1>And yet you have been married for all that time,

621
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:05.119
<v Speaker 1>so there must be something about you.

622
00:39:05.239 --> 00:39:05.719
<v Speaker 2>I can la.

623
00:39:06.719 --> 00:39:11.320
<v Speaker 1>That's always good, That is always good, but like a wow,

624
00:39:11.360 --> 00:39:15.960
<v Speaker 1>your character actually no, your character actually came to you

625
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:20.719
<v Speaker 1>in your your dreams. So she she is alife in

626
00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:21.119
<v Speaker 1>a way.

627
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, she's been with me for Lawrence. She went

628
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:31.440
<v Speaker 2>with me since I really put the two people that

629
00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:36.719
<v Speaker 2>i'd actually met into one character and started writing, you know,

630
00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:42.320
<v Speaker 2>character development about her. In fact, when in the character development,

631
00:39:43.280 --> 00:39:47.639
<v Speaker 2>which has never been published, she was just the shadow.

632
00:39:47.760 --> 00:39:51.079
<v Speaker 2>She was just a shadow for a long time and

633
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:55.559
<v Speaker 2>a developed as a character. Shelley took woman form, you know,

634
00:39:55.760 --> 00:39:59.880
<v Speaker 2>several chapters later in the character development that I was writing,

635
00:40:01.440 --> 00:40:03.639
<v Speaker 2>and that was only in my own mind. Is that

636
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:06.559
<v Speaker 2>developed who she was as a dimension? Don't care?

637
00:40:07.119 --> 00:40:12.039
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Wow, that's amazing. I mean that's like, that's that

638
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:16.719
<v Speaker 1>just means that you're a.

639
00:40:14.920 --> 00:40:15.559
<v Speaker 2>Great weird.

640
00:40:17.639 --> 00:40:21.920
<v Speaker 1>Because I'm a weird now, dude, that too. I suppose

641
00:40:21.960 --> 00:40:26.039
<v Speaker 1>your words, not mine, But no, that's that's that's special.

642
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:28.800
<v Speaker 1>That means that you have I mean, that's it's something

643
00:40:28.840 --> 00:40:34.719
<v Speaker 1>that I I touched on another another podcast a while

644
00:40:34.760 --> 00:40:38.039
<v Speaker 1>ago actually with a friend of mine, was more like

645
00:40:38.119 --> 00:40:43.280
<v Speaker 1>about about gods and stuff, because you there are so

646
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:48.360
<v Speaker 1>many well made up gods, if you will, from video

647
00:40:48.480 --> 00:40:51.639
<v Speaker 1>games and books and all of that. And I am

648
00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:55.039
<v Speaker 1>really wondering, you know, so much time and energy has

649
00:40:55.079 --> 00:41:03.280
<v Speaker 1>been spent into creating, into developing a backstory so that

650
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:05.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, it can have followers and such like I

651
00:41:06.000 --> 00:41:09.440
<v Speaker 1>do wonder could you perhaps say that because of all

652
00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:12.000
<v Speaker 1>the time and energy and effort that has been put

653
00:41:12.079 --> 00:41:16.039
<v Speaker 1>into it, have they become real gods? And I guess

654
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:19.480
<v Speaker 1>with your with your character with Marilyn, you have put

655
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:24.760
<v Speaker 1>so much time and efforts and energy into her as

656
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:29.000
<v Speaker 1>a character, into her character developments, even going so far

657
00:41:29.039 --> 00:41:33.480
<v Speaker 1>as to flesh out her backstory, she became real.

658
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:36.400
<v Speaker 2>You said, like you read Lunch?

659
00:41:37.559 --> 00:41:41.039
<v Speaker 1>Do you read LUNCHI I am familiar with with his

660
00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:45.079
<v Speaker 1>sound like the Nisch's writings.

661
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:46.920
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly what you said, Like.

662
00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:53.079
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, I do like that side of a philosophy.

663
00:41:53.199 --> 00:41:56.719
<v Speaker 1>I do like that side of the more more occult thinking.

664
00:41:57.599 --> 00:42:01.159
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, and Nietzschi comes. You know, Nietzsche is basically

665
00:42:01.280 --> 00:42:08.800
<v Speaker 2>based upon uh here Studios were almost contemporaneous.

666
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:14.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And Nietzsche, if I'm not mistaken, was a yeah,

667
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:16.119
<v Speaker 1>and it was a student the Freud, wasn't he.

668
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:20.159
<v Speaker 2>No, God, Young was a student of toys Young was.

669
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:21.079
<v Speaker 1>Yes, that was it.

670
00:42:21.280 --> 00:42:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, In fact they were very close. And then they

671
00:42:23.960 --> 00:42:30.880
<v Speaker 2>had a terrible falling out over Young's shadow. Yeah, believes

672
00:42:30.920 --> 00:42:37.679
<v Speaker 2>because Freud didn't believe it. Subconscious they and totally disagreement

673
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:38.199
<v Speaker 2>about it.

674
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:42.039
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No, Freud had other things on his mind.

675
00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:47.239
<v Speaker 2>N was more of the right. Nietzsche was more of

676
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:52.000
<v Speaker 2>the German philosophy st And that's why I read dose

677
00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:57.639
<v Speaker 2>Stanski every year because Doski was the Dosski was trying

678
00:42:57.679 --> 00:43:00.519
<v Speaker 2>to count or argue against Nietzsche, but he did it

679
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:03.360
<v Speaker 2>through fiction, not nonfiction.

680
00:43:04.639 --> 00:43:08.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, I mean I am I am Dutch, So

681
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:11.960
<v Speaker 1>you know those works are are very well known here.

682
00:43:12.559 --> 00:43:16.559
<v Speaker 2>That where you're lucky they're not here. That's a good

683
00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:17.320
<v Speaker 2>thing about you.

684
00:43:17.679 --> 00:43:22.239
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, No, I mean just European philosophers in general, both

685
00:43:22.400 --> 00:43:26.119
<v Speaker 1>Dutch and German have come up with some great works.

686
00:43:26.280 --> 00:43:29.199
<v Speaker 1>And there are a couple of content creators that I

687
00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:33.480
<v Speaker 1>follow that really pull from Nietzsche, from Young, and I

688
00:43:33.639 --> 00:43:36.920
<v Speaker 1>like those I like book wise, I have read a

689
00:43:36.920 --> 00:43:43.119
<v Speaker 1>lot of Julius Evela his work so more traditionalism, which

690
00:43:43.119 --> 00:43:48.639
<v Speaker 1>I also found find very very fascinating. Those are their hearts.

691
00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:50.719
<v Speaker 1>They're hard reads.

692
00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:56.000
<v Speaker 2>But yes, if I read too much Nietzsche, I get depressed.

693
00:43:56.320 --> 00:43:58.559
<v Speaker 2>So I can read it for a while, then I

694
00:43:58.559 --> 00:44:04.920
<v Speaker 2>have to leave it alone for six lives. Yeah, that

695
00:44:05.039 --> 00:44:05.400
<v Speaker 2>leaves you.

696
00:44:06.880 --> 00:44:10.360
<v Speaker 1>I do hope he is able to come back. It

697
00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:18.840
<v Speaker 1>seems our guest has has disappeared. Let's see, I'm hoping

698
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:24.480
<v Speaker 1>he can't come back. Ye, I'm good. We lost each stuff.

699
00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:27.119
<v Speaker 1>Let's see if I can because I was in contact

700
00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:35.599
<v Speaker 1>with his his agent, are you agent to get him

701
00:44:35.760 --> 00:44:40.079
<v Speaker 1>on the show? So I am kind of hoping that

702
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:44.639
<v Speaker 1>I can find just contact info for for Russell himself.

703
00:44:44.760 --> 00:44:52.079
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I guess in the meantime, and we're before editing,

704
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:56.360
<v Speaker 1>but we're about fifteen minutes in. Okay, is he yes?

705
00:44:56.800 --> 00:45:03.039
<v Speaker 1>You disconnected for a for a moment there? Can you

706
00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:08.880
<v Speaker 1>can you hear me? Dear? This doesn't happened in a while.

707
00:45:09.360 --> 00:45:14.519
<v Speaker 1>Actually that my me or my guest is now, Yes, yes, sir,

708
00:45:14.559 --> 00:45:18.880
<v Speaker 1>I can, I guess we're I'm we're touching. Sorry we

709
00:45:19.000 --> 00:45:23.920
<v Speaker 1>lost and then he gets lost again. Well, it seems

710
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:25.920
<v Speaker 1>that the link is still working at the very least,

711
00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:30.880
<v Speaker 1>so that is that is good?

712
00:45:31.519 --> 00:45:32.119
<v Speaker 2>Can you hear me?

713
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:36.239
<v Speaker 1>I guess In the meantime, i'll I'll promote some of

714
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:41.639
<v Speaker 1>his things. You can find his works and his books

715
00:45:41.760 --> 00:45:48.280
<v Speaker 1>through his website Russelllittleauthor dot com. I will share my

716
00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:54.119
<v Speaker 1>screen real quick just to show it. Here we go,

717
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:59.440
<v Speaker 1>so for everyone listening, Russell are you s S E

718
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:00.639
<v Speaker 1>L L.

719
00:46:01.199 --> 00:46:03.760
<v Speaker 2>Little? Just you know Little.

720
00:46:04.800 --> 00:46:12.960
<v Speaker 1>Author dot com has mont won multiple awards, is working

721
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:21.159
<v Speaker 1>on his new book, of course, great picture. Let's see

722
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:27.719
<v Speaker 1>O see gut a are you are you back? Can

723
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:28.840
<v Speaker 1>you hear me? Can you see me?

724
00:46:29.400 --> 00:46:32.639
<v Speaker 2>Yes? I am, I'm so sorry. I think they were

725
00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:34.920
<v Speaker 2>leaving each other at least it wait until the show

726
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:35.719
<v Speaker 2>was almost down.

727
00:46:36.320 --> 00:46:42.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, it's uh, it actually has has happened before that.

728
00:46:42.519 --> 00:46:45.719
<v Speaker 1>My guests and I were touching on so many, so

729
00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:50.199
<v Speaker 1>many great things that the the ether couldn't handle it

730
00:46:50.679 --> 00:46:54.360
<v Speaker 1>and just you know, either throw through me out or

731
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:57.079
<v Speaker 1>threw my guests out. But it hasn't happened in a

732
00:46:57.159 --> 00:47:02.159
<v Speaker 1>while actually, so I guess it's pretty special that it

733
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:03.199
<v Speaker 1>it happened again.

734
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:06.719
<v Speaker 2>Wow, I've really enjoyed it. I don't get to talk

735
00:47:06.760 --> 00:47:11.679
<v Speaker 2>about Nietzsche and Young and who did very often on

736
00:47:11.679 --> 00:47:14.039
<v Speaker 2>the podcast, and I've really got a day. I've really

737
00:47:14.119 --> 00:47:15.440
<v Speaker 2>enjoyed the heck out of it.

738
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:19.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you, thank you. I mean you're you're always

739
00:47:19.960 --> 00:47:24.039
<v Speaker 1>welcome to to come back on, of course, and I will.

740
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:28.880
<v Speaker 1>I will definitely check out your your books. They they

741
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:32.039
<v Speaker 1>sound like, you know, like an amazing series, like amazing writing.

742
00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:37.360
<v Speaker 1>And I've gotten very very curious about about Marilyn. I

743
00:47:37.440 --> 00:47:43.039
<v Speaker 1>have to say she she sounds terrible, but like a

744
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:47.239
<v Speaker 1>character that's that you want to get caught. Yeah, well

745
00:47:47.239 --> 00:47:49.920
<v Speaker 1>we'll see if she can get got that sounds that

746
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:54.559
<v Speaker 1>sounds promising, sounds very sounds very promising. Yeah, and I

747
00:47:54.800 --> 00:47:59.159
<v Speaker 1>I never I didn't imagine we go into the direction

748
00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:03.079
<v Speaker 1>of Nietzsche and Young and who doo and it's it's

749
00:48:03.119 --> 00:48:07.239
<v Speaker 1>all very very diverse. But yeah, thank you so much

750
00:48:07.400 --> 00:48:11.239
<v Speaker 1>for coming on. This has been has been really really great.

751
00:48:11.519 --> 00:48:11.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

752
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:15.039
<v Speaker 1>I I did, uh, you know, show the people and

753
00:48:15.079 --> 00:48:17.480
<v Speaker 1>told people a little before you like in the in

754
00:48:17.599 --> 00:48:20.000
<v Speaker 1>the the time that you were trying to come back,

755
00:48:20.360 --> 00:48:21.079
<v Speaker 1>but I could.

756
00:48:21.039 --> 00:48:24.079
<v Speaker 2>See you, you just couldn't see me. So I appreciate

757
00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:24.800
<v Speaker 2>that so much.

758
00:48:24.920 --> 00:48:29.360
<v Speaker 1>Okay, that is interesting but yeah, where may may the

759
00:48:29.400 --> 00:48:32.679
<v Speaker 1>people find your your work? Where can they buy the

760
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:36.519
<v Speaker 1>books to read about Maryland and to to read about you,

761
00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:41.320
<v Speaker 1>potentially possibly getting who do Voodoos Cursed?

762
00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so my books are on Amazon. If they want

763
00:48:46.480 --> 00:48:51.960
<v Speaker 2>to read about who do more about me, they can

764
00:48:52.000 --> 00:48:56.880
<v Speaker 2>go to Russell Little author dot com, but not big

765
00:48:56.960 --> 00:49:01.000
<v Speaker 2>but little Russell Little author dot com. If they want

766
00:49:01.039 --> 00:49:02.719
<v Speaker 2>to know what I'm doing day to day as a writer,

767
00:49:02.840 --> 00:49:07.480
<v Speaker 2>they can go to Facebook Russell's stories. Like I posted

768
00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:11.000
<v Speaker 2>something about this show before I got on it, I'll

769
00:49:11.000 --> 00:49:14.440
<v Speaker 2>have something different about the show afterwards. If you will

770
00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:16.960
<v Speaker 2>send me the link, I will post it all over

771
00:49:17.000 --> 00:49:17.599
<v Speaker 2>the players.

772
00:49:18.840 --> 00:49:22.159
<v Speaker 1>That is much appreciated. I have a backlog of content

773
00:49:22.239 --> 00:49:24.679
<v Speaker 1>still to release. What I can I can make some

774
00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:29.400
<v Speaker 1>rooin room in between. I can, Yeah, I can. I

775
00:49:29.400 --> 00:49:32.519
<v Speaker 1>can do some of my own WHODO and move it

776
00:49:32.599 --> 00:49:34.559
<v Speaker 1>up in the move it up in the list so

777
00:49:34.599 --> 00:49:37.800
<v Speaker 1>it releases a little earlier. I can. I can definitely

778
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:44.079
<v Speaker 1>do that. So yeah, thank you for your amazing, amazing stories.

779
00:49:44.119 --> 00:49:46.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean this was just a drop in the bucket,

780
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:49.280
<v Speaker 1>of course, And thank you.

781
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:53.079
<v Speaker 2>For your conversation. I got to tell you I would

782
00:49:53.079 --> 00:49:56.239
<v Speaker 2>buy you a beer you're cold. I would love to

783
00:49:56.320 --> 00:49:57.400
<v Speaker 2>talk more.

784
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:02.159
<v Speaker 1>Oh, absolutely, thank you very much. As I said, you're

785
00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:05.679
<v Speaker 1>always welcome to come back on to to talk so more,

786
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:09.679
<v Speaker 1>to you know, talk about different passions, projects, to talk

787
00:50:09.719 --> 00:50:12.000
<v Speaker 1>about Nietzsche, to talk about young, talk about.

788
00:50:12.119 --> 00:50:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Maybe next time whatever, sorry I said, maybe next time

789
00:50:15.519 --> 00:50:16.559
<v Speaker 2>we'll talk about Priest.

790
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:19.719
<v Speaker 1>Oh, I'd have to catch up on his work. I am,

791
00:50:19.760 --> 00:50:22.480
<v Speaker 1>I am familiar with it. There's so many great European

792
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:25.960
<v Speaker 1>authors that I still have to read, so many European

793
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:29.119
<v Speaker 1>philosophers that I still have to get familiar with. But

794
00:50:29.159 --> 00:50:30.639
<v Speaker 1>that's that's a full time job on.

795
00:50:30.639 --> 00:50:30.960
<v Speaker 2>It so own.

796
00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:35.679
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I'm just gonna, you know, close it out

797
00:50:35.840 --> 00:50:39.840
<v Speaker 1>for myself. So for everyone watching, everyone listening, thank you

798
00:50:40.280 --> 00:50:43.639
<v Speaker 1>so much. I hope you enjoyed this as much as

799
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:47.360
<v Speaker 1>we both did. And if you did, do leave something

800
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:49.920
<v Speaker 1>nice in the comments. So what do you think about Marilyn, Like,

801
00:50:50.079 --> 00:50:52.800
<v Speaker 1>do you do you hope she's she will get caught

802
00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:55.400
<v Speaker 1>If you do, you know better buy his books and

803
00:50:55.440 --> 00:50:55.920
<v Speaker 1>find out.

804
00:50:56.719 --> 00:50:57.760
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, of.

805
00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Course I leave alike on this video. Suddenly something nice

806
00:51:00.880 --> 00:51:04.079
<v Speaker 1>in the comments. Make sure you are subscribed to not

807
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:08.840
<v Speaker 1>miss a single single bits, not a single episode, and

808
00:51:08.960 --> 00:51:12.599
<v Speaker 1>do ring that notification bell to get notified whenever I

809
00:51:12.760 --> 00:51:16.360
<v Speaker 1>go live again, whenever I go live with Zero Lath

810
00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:19.360
<v Speaker 1>or with any other guest that I find worthy of,

811
00:51:19.599 --> 00:51:22.039
<v Speaker 1>you know, just doing a live show with I can't

812
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:24.639
<v Speaker 1>do it all the time. But and of course when

813
00:51:24.679 --> 00:51:27.039
<v Speaker 1>a new episode drops off the Greer and Pagans Podcast.

814
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:31.599
<v Speaker 1>And a big thank you to our sponsors Shop Reclaim

815
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<v Speaker 1>of course, you know, bought hit his game myself before

823
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824
00:52:13.599 --> 00:52:17.679
<v Speaker 1>reason why I I was like, hey, dude, like, would

825
00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:20.800
<v Speaker 1>you mind you know, like sponsoring us, Like it's you

826
00:52:20.920 --> 00:52:23.760
<v Speaker 1>got such a cool game, and like you can you

827
00:52:23.800 --> 00:52:25.800
<v Speaker 1>can use the you can use the customers, you can

828
00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:27.960
<v Speaker 1>use the money. I can use the sponsorship so and

829
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<v Speaker 1>also a big thank you to W Energy. W is

830
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831
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832
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<v Speaker 1>energy drinks we have all you know had too much

833
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<v Speaker 1>caffeine and too much sugar in our our energy drinks.

834
00:52:47.159 --> 00:52:50.719
<v Speaker 1>You know red Bull, Monster, God's knows. I was addicted

835
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<v Speaker 1>to Monster, but Dobbie is just much better. They also

836
00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:59.199
<v Speaker 1>have no meltodextrin. Fillers do not use any artificial dies

837
00:53:00.039 --> 00:53:03.159
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838
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839
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:09.960
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841
00:53:15.519 --> 00:53:19.559
<v Speaker 1>and yeah for everything else that we do. Go to

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00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:23.599
<v Speaker 1>our website ww dot Grayhornpagans dot com. It is where

843
00:53:23.639 --> 00:53:26.360
<v Speaker 1>you can find the merge, where you can find the Patreon,

844
00:53:26.440 --> 00:53:29.519
<v Speaker 1>where you can find all the other projects that are

845
00:53:29.760 --> 00:53:33.599
<v Speaker 1>our listeners or friends or members have done and are doing.

846
00:53:33.760 --> 00:53:36.639
<v Speaker 1>If you are serving the web, why not also go

847
00:53:36.719 --> 00:53:40.159
<v Speaker 1>to russelllittleauthor dot com check out some of his work.

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00:53:40.440 --> 00:53:43.159
<v Speaker 1>It's only you know it's a it's one click new

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00:53:43.199 --> 00:53:47.679
<v Speaker 1>tap russelllitleauthor dot com and you know it is much appreciated.

850
00:53:47.920 --> 00:53:51.480
<v Speaker 1>So thank you all very much and I will see

851
00:53:51.519 --> 00:53:53.960
<v Speaker 1>you soon. I will see you next time on a

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00:53:54.000 --> 00:53:57.360
<v Speaker 1>new episode with a new amazing guest on the Grand

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00:53:57.440 --> 00:53:58.239
<v Speaker 1>Pagans Podcast.

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00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:14.960
<v Speaker 5>See yeah, this was yet another amazing episode of the

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00:54:15.119 --> 00:54:16.679
<v Speaker 5>Greyhorned Pagans Podcast.

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00:54:17.079 --> 00:54:18.639
<v Speaker 6>We thank you all for watching.

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00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:20.599
<v Speaker 5>We thank you all for listening.

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00:54:21.800 --> 00:54:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Remember to like.

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00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:26.920
<v Speaker 6>Share, subscribe, and hit that notification bell so you will

860
00:54:26.920 --> 00:54:31.480
<v Speaker 6>be notified whenever we upload something new. Support us on

861
00:54:31.599 --> 00:54:35.239
<v Speaker 6>Patreon for early access and for everything else that we

862
00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:37.679
<v Speaker 6>do with the tribe. For everything else that we do

863
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:44.079
<v Speaker 6>with the podcast, find us on Wwwpagans dot com. For now,

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00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:46.400
<v Speaker 6>we thank you, and until next time,