WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:13.119 But I joined it. So apparently they had a rage 2 00:00:13.199 --> 00:00:15.240 quit or something. I don't know the details of what 3 00:00:15.320 --> 00:00:21.399 all went down. Oh crap, I'm supposed to haven't than 4 00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:23.320 its supposed to be with Richard Grove right now. I 5 00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:41.759 forgot about that. Uh So anyway, so I DM Sneako 6 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:48.399 that I'm in his thing. Let's see. He says, I 7 00:00:48.479 --> 00:00:54.039 friended you. Uh friend requests. 8 00:01:00.079 --> 00:01:00.399 Kahm. 9 00:01:09.079 --> 00:01:12.760 Then I said, what about breakfast around here? Revenue is 10 00:01:13.079 --> 00:01:14.439 ship I don't think. 11 00:01:14.359 --> 00:01:19.159 I run huh. 12 00:01:19.719 --> 00:01:21.159 We both kind of like it. 13 00:01:22.879 --> 00:01:39.640 Bet on air air and air in a room there there, okay, yeah, 14 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:40.359 I added you. 15 00:01:41.799 --> 00:01:45.439 The server set up where I don't see where they where. 16 00:01:45.439 --> 00:02:02.599 The debate is waiting room uhh. 17 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:19.800 And I said, hood bye brain rest. I'm both kind 18 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:20.240 of lad. 19 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:27.080 All right, I'm here, I said, yo, So what's up? 20 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:32.199 I'm a waiting. 21 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:36.080 Yo yo. 22 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:49.560 Maybe it's in the religion section. Let's see. I still 23 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:55.800 can't talk. I'm gonna beate on rumble. I thought the 24 00:02:56.080 --> 00:03:04.039 debates in here, dude, h m hm, still making me wait. 25 00:03:06.520 --> 00:03:45.000 You may not talk for four minutes. M Trinidad James 26 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:49.800 Gold all over my chain and go over my watch 27 00:03:50.159 --> 00:04:01.159 and nonet believe he'll just watch. I guess the ten 28 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:05.159 minute rule is for bots or something, But I mean, 29 00:04:05.159 --> 00:04:07.560 how many bots are trying to join servers? I don't know. 30 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:09.400 Maybe he's got a bunch of haters. I don't know. 31 00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.160 Shout out to Stuart, thank you for that super jet. 32 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:19.720 Be careful. Snico and his. 33 00:04:19.680 --> 00:04:22.480 Friend pulled a fast one on Andrew when they change 34 00:04:22.519 --> 00:04:26.319 the agreements of the debate. Well, I don't. I haven't 35 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:28.240 agreed to anything other than to come into this room, 36 00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:31.199 So I don't know what the topics are. I'm not 37 00:04:31.279 --> 00:04:35.399 debating this age of Ayisha stuff. That's not I'm a 38 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:39.160 I debate the philosophy stuff. So we're going to debate 39 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:43.920 theology philosophy. I'm not here to debate all this degenerate, 40 00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:46.600 pre pubescent stuff. That's not what I That's not what 41 00:04:46.639 --> 00:05:04.279 I do. Plenty of people can debate that topic. Still 42 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:12.879 making me wait to talk in the chat. So I mean, yeah, 43 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:15.800 I think I don't know who Muslim lantern is. So 44 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:18.120 I have no idea what what's going on here. But 45 00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:23.079 number one, I'm not afraid of doing these debates, obviously, 46 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:32.519 So Sneako's debate. Stop ducking. They're telling me I'm ducking. 47 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:33.240 I literally just. 48 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:47.000 Yo, hello, yo, hey, can you hear me? 49 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:47.839 Yeah? What's up? 50 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:49.399 Nice? 51 00:05:50.199 --> 00:05:50.399 Hey? 52 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:53.800 How you guys doing doing good? 53 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:55.879 Doing good? So this is Muhammad Ali and then we 54 00:05:55.920 --> 00:05:58.680 also have a fellow Christian, Jacosi here, a representative of 55 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.800 the Love Spech community. So we just had I'll keep 56 00:06:01.839 --> 00:06:04.079 you up to just bring you up to speed. We 57 00:06:04.319 --> 00:06:07.720 just had a half debate kind of Andrew Wilson versus 58 00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:11.160 Muslim lantern. This Muhammad a live here, and we weren't 59 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:13.279 able to agree with to the terms of the Asia 60 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:15.959 concent but we do really want to hear about the Trinity. 61 00:06:16.120 --> 00:06:17.480 If we could do a Trinity debate, I don't know 62 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:18.639 if you're if you're ready or if you want to 63 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:20.920 do that right now, but me and Dracosa, because he's 64 00:06:20.959 --> 00:06:23.120 a Christian, I would be unbiased. We can moderate it 65 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:25.519 right now. You versus the Muslim lantern. 66 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:28.360 Uh yeah, I'm not opposed to debating Trinity. I have 67 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.879 just debated for the last four hours, so I'm a 68 00:06:30.879 --> 00:06:32.839 little bit tired, but I'm not opposed to doing it. 69 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:37.720 Okay, we can keep it short. I want to keep it. 70 00:06:37.879 --> 00:06:41.920 How's forty five minutes. Let's we can start five Well, 71 00:06:41.959 --> 00:06:43.560 I mean you don't have an opening statement prepared. 72 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.480 I do everything extemporaneous. I would, I mean, I would, 73 00:06:47.519 --> 00:06:50.519 I can do an opening statement extemporaneous, doesn't matter. I mean, 74 00:06:50.759 --> 00:06:52.879 did you want to do timed or a conversation or 75 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:53.560 what style debate? 76 00:06:53.759 --> 00:06:55.839 So that's listen to now. 77 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:58.800 Ideally, Okay, so I'll do the same terms that we 78 00:06:58.839 --> 00:07:01.120 had for the last debate, but it went itself. So 79 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:04.360 I think having an opening statement for both sides would 80 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:07.399 be fair around five minutes cap. We'll cap in five 81 00:07:07.439 --> 00:07:09.240 minutes and then we can go free flowing back and forth. 82 00:07:09.279 --> 00:07:11.000 But if there's too many interruptions, then we'll have to 83 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:13.360 do timing things, and then that's when the moderators will 84 00:07:13.360 --> 00:07:13.879 have to stuppen. 85 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:17.399 Yeah, that's a good idea. I can do that. 86 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:19.160 Yeah. 87 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:23.560 So the thing is, like Andrew I was having a 88 00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:26.800 discussion with him. He was wanted to talk about the 89 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:29.160 age of manager, of the age of consent right versus 90 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:31.319 the Trinity. So I don't know if you want to 91 00:07:31.319 --> 00:07:32.959 mention something about it slam as well to be fair, 92 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.480 because talken just about the Trinity is just a Christian thing. 93 00:07:36.120 --> 00:07:38.399 Well, no, I mean usually Trinity versus how heat is 94 00:07:38.399 --> 00:07:39.000 what we debate. 95 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:40.399 Yeah, if you have that. 96 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:42.720 So if you want to debate that, that's fine. And 97 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:45.199 you already debated that, so you should already have your 98 00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:47.560 notes ready, I believe, right, because your last debate was 99 00:07:47.600 --> 00:07:48.480 kind of I don't do. 100 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:50.519 Nutes, man, I just I just do everything eximper in 101 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:51.920 this I. 102 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:53.600 No, no, I'm just making that point clear. 103 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:56.439 They've already had a debate on this topic just recently, 104 00:07:56.480 --> 00:07:58.800 so if you did have notes, you would have them prepared, 105 00:07:58.839 --> 00:07:59.519 so you can say that. 106 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.160 But something they've already done. Right, So we were having 107 00:08:02.199 --> 00:08:04.759 a discussion, me and Andrew. 108 00:08:04.839 --> 00:08:06.480 We can do that if we allow each other to speak, 109 00:08:06.519 --> 00:08:07.680 finish the points and ask questions. 110 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:09.279 I think that can work with me and you. 111 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:13.040 If the moderators not the stage just becoming interrupting and 112 00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:14.879 stuff like that, and someone's trying to take over, then 113 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:18.000 what we can do is just turn it into timing. 114 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:22.639 Right, Yeah, it's be fair, all right. So, and I 115 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:24.560 made this and I don't think you will. 116 00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:27.120 But I made this point before in the previous discussion, 117 00:08:27.240 --> 00:08:30.720 is like, no insulting of the profit directly by mentioning, 118 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:32.000 calling him names and stuff like that. 119 00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:33.039 I don't think you will do that. 120 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:35.600 But I'm just highlighting that because that's I guess it's 121 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:37.559 my faith. So I cannot be in the call if this, 122 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:40.080 if this is happening, If that's fair, you can let 123 00:08:40.080 --> 00:08:40.279 me know. 124 00:08:40.279 --> 00:08:42.000 If not, you can also tin me in a position. 125 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:48.320 Okay, all right, do you have a camera. I mean 126 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:51.759 we're live on YouTube, so my camera as active for 127 00:08:51.799 --> 00:08:52.559 YouTube right now? 128 00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:57.720 Oh okay, okay, you can activate it on Discord two. 129 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:04.000 Yeah, one, I know. 130 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:05.440 Uh yeah. A lot of guys are used the stream 131 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:27.320 yard and stuff. H all right, yeah, listen, all right, 132 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:34.480 all right, okay, who would prefer to go first? As 133 00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:36.080 a matter, I. 134 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:37.919 Don't mind you if you would like to. I don't 135 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:39.559 know you would like me to go first. We would 136 00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:40.200 like to go first. 137 00:09:40.519 --> 00:09:41.279 I'm a very. 138 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:44.799 Let me find a piece I need a piece of paper. 139 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:48.960 I always taking notes, so hold on, segain Okay. 140 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:52.639 They were complaining about the volume earlier, mohammed, your your 141 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:54.519 your volume is a little low. I had you all 142 00:09:54.559 --> 00:09:57.639 the way up, but it's and then even at the 143 00:09:58.120 --> 00:10:00.840 Christians something, No, it's a little low. 144 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.919 Okay, you could turn it up, but don't. 145 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:07.759 I think it's the loudest I can get it right now. 146 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:12.200 But I'm just also speaking. I'm not speaking loudly because 147 00:10:12.440 --> 00:10:16.399 it's too am you know, right, Yeah, I mentioned to 148 00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:17.399 you about the neighbors and stuff. 149 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:19.399 I don't want to be waking them up or something. 150 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:35.960 All right, who's that? 151 00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:47.519 Okay, this is a Trinity versus to Heat debate. Let's 152 00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:51.240 get an opening statement from I'll sell with Jay. 153 00:10:51.799 --> 00:10:54.679 Okay. Yeah, So, the doctrine in Trinity is a doctrine 154 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:57.759 that is not derived from philosophy. It's not derived from 155 00:10:57.799 --> 00:11:01.279 Saint Paul primarily, it's not derived from the Council of Nicia. 156 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:03.919 The Doctor the Trinity is taught in the Law and 157 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:06.279 the Prophets. In fact, if you go back to my 158 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:09.159 Daniel Hikikachu debate, in the first ten minutes, I hold 159 00:11:09.240 --> 00:11:12.360 up a whiteboard that shows all the passages from the 160 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:15.120 Torah and then the prophets that we derived the Doctrine 161 00:11:15.159 --> 00:11:20.320 the Trinity from, mainly from Jewish Extejesus of the Old Testament. 162 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:22.919 This might sound surprising because people think that the doctor 163 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:25.440 in Trinity is something that's unique to Christianity, or that 164 00:11:25.519 --> 00:11:29.279 Jews don't believe in this nowadays, so therefore Jews could 165 00:11:29.279 --> 00:11:31.440 not have taught it back then. In fact, many Jewish 166 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:34.279 scholars today. I reference many of those in that opening 167 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:36.720 statement of the Daniel debate. I can refer to them now. 168 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:41.759 This would be Benjamin Summer, Alan Siegel, Schaeffer, etc. Boyar, 169 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:45.240 and all of those scholars admit that the early Church's 170 00:11:45.360 --> 00:11:48.559 view is not that distinct from the Judaism of the 171 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:52.360 time of Christ in recognizing more than one person in 172 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:55.759 the Trinity. Note, I am not saying that the Jews 173 00:11:55.759 --> 00:12:01.279 at that time were all Trinitarians. I'm not saying that 174 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:05.679 it's okay. I'm not saying that Jews necessarily accept Trinitarianism. 175 00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.879 I'm saying that these scholars prove that in the time 176 00:12:08.960 --> 00:12:12.919 of Christ, there was not a generic Unitarianism that characterized 177 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:15.159 what it is to be quote monotheists. They didn't see 178 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.000 a contradiction or a problem between the idea of quote 179 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:21.600 monotheism and the recognition of the Father as the archae 180 00:12:21.720 --> 00:12:24.279 cause and fount, the Angel of the Lord as his messenger, 181 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:25.919 which we see through all throughout the Old Testament, who 182 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:28.120 is called God, who is called Divine, who is called 183 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:31.799 the Messenger of the Covenant, who is called Yahweh in 184 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.799 Exodus three, Exodus twenty three throughout the Psalms, in the 185 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:38.840 Mini Theophanes passages, and many times in the Prophets, Jesus predicted, 186 00:12:38.879 --> 00:12:41.639 especially in latter Isaiah, to be a divine Nosiah that 187 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:44.559 would be worshiped. So a lot of these references to 188 00:12:44.600 --> 00:12:48.200 the Trinity are primarily grounded rooted in the Torah and 189 00:12:48.240 --> 00:12:52.759 the Prophets. Islam, However, when it argues against the Trinity, 190 00:12:53.120 --> 00:12:55.519 does so on the basis of it not being aware 191 00:12:55.559 --> 00:12:57.759 of or not being informed, typically on what the actual 192 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:01.279 texts teach in terms of the Jewish texts that we 193 00:13:01.320 --> 00:13:04.159 as Christians also refer to. Also when it comes to 194 00:13:04.200 --> 00:13:07.000 the text of the Gospel and the texts of the 195 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:10.120 New Testament, they're not aware of the fact that Jesus, 196 00:13:10.200 --> 00:13:13.080 throughout the Gospel John and every chapter refers to himself 197 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:15.960 as both divine and or a member of the triad. 198 00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:18.919 John one talks about Jesus being the Logos. John one 199 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.679 talks about him being eternally begotten monogyen aesteos, so the 200 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:24.799 eternal beginning. All of that is already at the beginning 201 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:27.200 of the Gospel John and again every chapter, whether it's 202 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:29.679 John five through nine, where Jesus identifies himself as the 203 00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:32.000 one at Mount Sinai talking to Moses, the one that 204 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:34.159 gave the law. Jesus firs to himself as the son 205 00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:36.279 of God many times over, which means that his God 206 00:13:36.399 --> 00:13:39.480 is not Allah, because Allah has no sons. So Jesus 207 00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:41.440 many many times over throughout the Gospel says he is 208 00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.279 the son of God and that he makes us by 209 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:45.720 grace sons of God. This proves that there is not 210 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:49.279 the same God of Muhammad and the same God of Jesus. 211 00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:52.720 Jesus is not referring to Allah as his father. Allah 212 00:13:52.759 --> 00:13:55.840 has no sons. So when we come to the time 213 00:13:55.919 --> 00:13:58.799 of the early church fathers, they unanimously teach the deedy 214 00:13:58.799 --> 00:14:01.600 of Christ, the triad, as well the deed to the 215 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:04.120 Holy Spirit. This becomes codified by the time of Nicia. 216 00:14:04.159 --> 00:14:06.240 It's not invented at the time of Nicia. You can 217 00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:09.519 read the church fathers from Irenaeus to Ignacious to Clement. 218 00:14:09.799 --> 00:14:13.720 You can read Cyril, sip Schimi, Cyprian, you can read Athanasius, 219 00:14:13.759 --> 00:14:16.399 all these church fathers. Alexander writing prior to the time, 220 00:14:16.440 --> 00:14:18.279 and I see that teach the deed to Christ and 221 00:14:18.399 --> 00:14:20.159 what would become the doction or known as the Doctor 222 00:14:20.200 --> 00:14:22.480 with trinity. So the Trinity is not something foreign to 223 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:24.679 the scriptures. It's rooted in the Torret's rooted in the Prophet's, 224 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:26.039 root in the New Testament, root in the teaching of 225 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.039 Christ himself. And I would add that when we compare 226 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:31.679 it to what's in the Quran, the Koran makes many stakes. 227 00:14:31.679 --> 00:14:34.360 First of all, about what the Christians teach. They say 228 00:14:34.360 --> 00:14:36.320 that we take our monks as lords. We do not. 229 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:38.840 They take They think that the Koran thinks that we 230 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:40.759 take Mary as part of the Trinity, we do not. 231 00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:44.639 The Qoran also is itself confused in two areas that 232 00:14:44.679 --> 00:14:46.799 I always like to highlight, which is that it claims 233 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.799 that prior revelation confirms it and backs it up and 234 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:52.759 many times over, Like in a so five, it says 235 00:14:52.759 --> 00:14:54.840 that you can look to the previous revelation to confirm 236 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:57.679 the new revelation, but the old revelation contradicts it. And 237 00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:00.399 when Muslims see the contradictions, they do the same move 238 00:15:00.440 --> 00:15:03.600 of Ajaws and the debate to say, well, we reject 239 00:15:03.639 --> 00:15:05.639 all the times that it contradicts, but we accept all 240 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:08.080 the time that it is with our revelation. Well, that 241 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:12.039 is a circle. That's arguing for the thing that's in question, 242 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:15.080 we want to know, how does the prior revelation confirm 243 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.000 the new revelation, which the Quran says it can do 244 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:21.440 if the prior revelations are corrupt, and how a foolish 245 00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:23.159 it would be to look to a corrupt book to 246 00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:26.279 supposedly prove an incorrupt book. So it makes no sense 247 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:28.600 on the face of it. I would also then argue 248 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:32.080 that the doctrine of Tanzi that's derived from the passages 249 00:15:32.120 --> 00:15:34.320 that talk about all of being nothing like creation forty 250 00:15:34.360 --> 00:15:37.120 two and I think around one ten somewhere in there 251 00:15:37.240 --> 00:15:39.679 it says that Allah is absolutely nothing like creation. And 252 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:42.559 yet Muslims many times over will utilize terminology, language and 253 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.879 so forth to liken Allah to a created thing, to 254 00:15:45.919 --> 00:15:47.879 say that Allah is merciful, that he is just, he 255 00:15:47.919 --> 00:15:50.679 has all these things, Allah has a hand, has a shen, 256 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:54.039 and so forth. Things that come up in the accepted 257 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:57.279 hadeds well, all of those things are contradictory to the 258 00:15:57.320 --> 00:15:59.600 notion of taal Heed that God is a pure unity 259 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:02.000 or pure This is why Muslims for centuries have debated 260 00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:05.080 amongst themselves whether the attributes are really distinct. And you 261 00:16:05.120 --> 00:16:08.120 have people like Jake Slafis and others who say, no, oh, yes, 262 00:16:08.480 --> 00:16:09.919 Allah has a foot, has a shin, and we don't 263 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:11.480 know the modality, but he really has these things. 264 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:12.360 They're really attributes. 265 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:16.000 And yet we're said to be only a religion of 266 00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:19.120 perfect unity and perfect oneness. Yet he's many. Well, the 267 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:22.120 same problem that you have with the attributes and the 268 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:25.279 dependence relationship of the attributes on Allah's essence and amongst 269 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:27.559 themselves is no different than the question that we have 270 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:29.720 about the persons of the trinity. It's just simply that 271 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:31.559 you say that we have a problem that you don't 272 00:16:31.559 --> 00:16:33.759 have to answer when you have the exact same problem 273 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.559 in relationship to the attributes in Allah's essence and their 274 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.919 dependent's relationship. And if you don't think there's a dependence relationship, 275 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.440 then I will just simply say, do you believe that 276 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.360 they are then asse or self existent? If they're self existent, 277 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:48.399 then you have what ninety nine gods. So you have 278 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:51.679 the same problem, but a double standard as to how 279 00:16:51.720 --> 00:16:54.279 you answer that. I'm not saying note that you believe 280 00:16:54.440 --> 00:16:57.120 that the attributes of persons. I know you don't believe that, 281 00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:59.639 But the same problem of the one and the many 282 00:17:00.039 --> 00:17:03.159 and the dependence status between the attributes and the essence 283 00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:06.200 is a problem that you cannot answer because within Islam 284 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.880 there are countless multiple contradictions. How much time do I have? 285 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:10.920 You're good? 286 00:17:10.960 --> 00:17:12.480 I don't think I can give you a specific time. 287 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:13.319 Good. 288 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:15.240 I thought he said five minute opening or whatever. 289 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:17.359 That was good. 290 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:21.960 That was precise. I think that's fine. You want to 291 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:23.200 respond with some antern. 292 00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:25.079 Yeah, okay. 293 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:27.880 During my response, I want to ask you questions, if 294 00:17:27.920 --> 00:17:29.720 that's fine, right, I just want to ask The first 295 00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:30.559 question is what is. 296 00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.799 The trinity in your belief? What is the trinity? 297 00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:34.440 Just because we're talking about the trinity, so I think 298 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:36.799 defining terms is appointed because you said you found it 299 00:17:36.839 --> 00:17:37.759 present in the old systems. 300 00:17:37.759 --> 00:17:38.559 So why is the trinity? 301 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:42.720 So doctrine that God is first and foremost identified with 302 00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:45.400 the person of the Father. The Father is what we 303 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:49.559 call the arkaeount, the source, the cause, the supreme beginning 304 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.519 of the other two persons, and that's revealed to be 305 00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:57.000 the person of his eternally begotten son, who identify as 306 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:00.440 the Lord Jesus Christ, and with his eternal Holy Spirit. 307 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.559 So they are three in one. They share a common 308 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:06.720 essence or nature in that they come from the Father, 309 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:09.279 and they derive the same nature from the Father, as 310 00:18:09.359 --> 00:18:12.039 Jesus says in John five and six. But they're also 311 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:14.359 really and truly distinct, which is why we see Jesus, 312 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:17.359 for example, praying to the Father, asking things of the Father, 313 00:18:17.400 --> 00:18:19.839 and so forth. So the Bible, we believe, teaches both 314 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.039 of those things that he is one and three. And 315 00:18:22.079 --> 00:18:25.000 it's not a problem for monotheism because actually the word 316 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:27.359 monotheism is a really late term that you don't see 317 00:18:27.400 --> 00:18:28.880 until the sixteen hundreds. 318 00:18:29.839 --> 00:18:32.519 So I'm sorry I didn't get a definition, but I'll 319 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:35.160 give a definition and then you can confirm with me. 320 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:35.960 You said few things. 321 00:18:36.039 --> 00:18:38.640 I understand them, but I wanted like a concise definition. 322 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:38.880 Right. 323 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.200 You tell me whether this is like represented as the. 324 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:41.799 Trinity or not. 325 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.279 You have God, the Father, God, the Son, God, the 326 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.599 Hot Spirit. Okay, Father is not the Son's Son, is 327 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.759 not the Holy Spirit. Three persons in one being as 328 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:55.720 as one being, but there's three persons that are within 329 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:57.480 that one being, and. 330 00:18:59.400 --> 00:19:01.839 The quote equal coote eternal, so. 331 00:19:01.759 --> 00:19:05.559 They share they are equal in everything and they're eternal 332 00:19:05.680 --> 00:19:08.119 the same way. Is that a good representation of for 333 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:09.200 the train, Well. 334 00:19:09.440 --> 00:19:11.799 Some of that terminology is a little ambiguous, which is 335 00:19:11.799 --> 00:19:15.200 why I gave you a specific monarchical trinitarian definition. So 336 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:17.640 the model that I gave you was a definition. It's 337 00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:20.720 called monarchical trinitarianism, and it's distinct from a lot of 338 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:23.920 Western trinitarian theology that you might find in Romatholicism. So 339 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:26.839 I was being very precise in the response that. 340 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:28.440 I gave no. 341 00:19:28.440 --> 00:19:30.079 No, but do you agree You have not told me 342 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.799 do you agree that if you say something is ambiguous? 343 00:19:32.799 --> 00:19:34.759 You can tell me that this specific part is I 344 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:36.519 don't agree with it is ambiguous, and then you can 345 00:19:36.559 --> 00:19:39.079 clarify it. What I've said is that the definition of 346 00:19:39.079 --> 00:19:41.079 the trinity or not. I just want a concise definition. 347 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:43.599 Is it that there are three persons in one being 348 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:46.200 the quote equal quote external and they're not the same, 349 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:47.880 like the Father's not the Sun sentits on the horstrait, 350 00:19:47.920 --> 00:19:49.319 but they won't God sure. 351 00:19:49.160 --> 00:19:50.839 Very simple way. Do you agree with that? Okay? 352 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:54.039 So, because this is how I see people, anyone who've 353 00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:55.680 seen define the trinity define it that way. 354 00:19:55.720 --> 00:19:57.880 So I just wanted the agreement to that. Okay. 355 00:19:57.920 --> 00:20:00.559 So that's the trinity. Now you quote it, John one, 356 00:20:00.640 --> 00:20:02.920 and you tried to say that the scripture shows the trinity, 357 00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:05.480 et cetera. Quoting John one is not an evidence for 358 00:20:05.519 --> 00:20:07.559 the trinity. A trinity says three persons in one be 359 00:20:07.960 --> 00:20:10.440 person is separate from the being. John one doesn't say that, says, 360 00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:12.400 in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, 361 00:20:12.920 --> 00:20:15.319 and the word was with God, was God? The word 362 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:17.279 became flush of mangol monas. If this is what you're 363 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:19.400 referring to, that's not three persons in one being there. 364 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:21.759 It does not talk about the fact that they are 365 00:20:21.799 --> 00:20:22.599 distinct persons. 366 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:23.880 And I didn't say that. 367 00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:24.200 John. 368 00:20:25.559 --> 00:20:27.920 I didn't my it's my it's my time. 369 00:20:28.119 --> 00:20:31.359 You said you wanted conversation. You didn't say you want no, no, no, 370 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:31.960 no no. 371 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:33.839 I said, I'll ask you a question with him my time. 372 00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:36.160 Because you've made many points, I have to respond to 373 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:37.279 the well. 374 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.680 But I didn't say that the trinity is three persons 375 00:20:39.680 --> 00:20:40.960 in John one, I said. 376 00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.640 That, Okay, you said many things that I disagreed with 377 00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:43.960 as well. 378 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:45.759 Okay, but what you're saying is a strong man. That 379 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:46.599 wasn't what I said. 380 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:48.519 No, no, we'll we'll have it back and forth after 381 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:50.039 I'm done. But I did allowed to speak for like 382 00:20:50.079 --> 00:20:51.200 five minutes and make so many points. 383 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:53.920 So the back and forth is only when you ask 384 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.480 a question. I'm confused. You don't want a five minute open. 385 00:20:56.680 --> 00:20:57.680 I thought you want a five open. 386 00:20:58.920 --> 00:21:00.319 Yeah, I have an opening statement. 387 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:02.640 I'm saying, within my opening statement, I'll ask you questions 388 00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:03.359 for clarification. 389 00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:03.680 That's it. 390 00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:05.640 So you responded to the question, and the question was 391 00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:07.480 what is the trinity? Because it's the debate of the topic, 392 00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:10.039 that's it. So I needed the clarification of that. But 393 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:11.880 but other than that, I wanted to finish as well, 394 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:14.039 responding to all the points that you made, right, and 395 00:21:14.079 --> 00:21:15.960 then we can get into back and forth on problem. 396 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:17.680 I don't mind, but I got to respond because you 397 00:21:17.720 --> 00:21:18.680 made so many points, right. 398 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:25.559 Continue? Does that sound okay for both sides? Okay? Would 399 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:28.319 say that you know with your with your question there 400 00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:30.839 why you were speaking and kind of gave the impression 401 00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:32.960 that you were looking for back and forth, right, because 402 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:33.440 if he's. 403 00:21:33.319 --> 00:21:36.480 Going to clarify, you know, a question, he had to 404 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:38.079 fully clarify that. 405 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:40.720 You understand that he wasn't really done with the clarification, 406 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:41.920 is what I no. 407 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:44.319 No, no, we passed from the point of the trinity. 408 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:46.559 He nodded his head this is a trinity, and then 409 00:21:46.599 --> 00:21:48.839 I went to something else and then he said I did. 410 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:51.680 Okay, so I'm supposed to know when yeah, okay. 411 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:53.880 No, no, just a question. I'll ask for example, is 412 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:56.480 the trinity? You give response? And that's it, Like that's 413 00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:58.799 all I wanted. I didn't want like everything I all 414 00:21:58.839 --> 00:22:00.440 mentioned and then you will come up. It's not going 415 00:22:00.440 --> 00:22:01.279 to be an opening statement. 416 00:22:01.359 --> 00:22:01.559 Right. 417 00:22:02.039 --> 00:22:04.759 So you said that church fathers were unified on the 418 00:22:04.799 --> 00:22:07.319 idea of the trinity. That's that is false. I have 419 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:08.359 got many examples. 420 00:22:09.400 --> 00:22:10.720 There's just another strong man. 421 00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:14.599 Okay, but I'm not going to be able to talk 422 00:22:14.680 --> 00:22:15.920 if you everything I say that. 423 00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:17.960 You're so I can't rely can. 424 00:22:17.799 --> 00:22:19.640 When we get can, when we get can, when we can, 425 00:22:19.680 --> 00:22:22.039 you write down what you believe. I'm strong manning you end, 426 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:24.960 and then we can have an open discussion about that 427 00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:31.200 one sometime with opening Okay, that fine, Okay, clarify you 428 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.720 what you meant, what you said about the church brothers. 429 00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:34.279 What did you say about the church bathers? 430 00:22:34.920 --> 00:22:38.119 Right, So it's a fallacy of ambiguity to say that 431 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:40.720 I mean that they don't have debate. I said that 432 00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:43.599 they're unified on teaching the three persons and that there 433 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:45.359 is the duty of Christ. They do teach those things. 434 00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:47.000 They also have debates on these topics too. 435 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:51.559 They have a unified agreement on what the trinity is. 436 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:53.319 That's not what I said. 437 00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:56.680 Okay, good, So we have that established that the church 438 00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:57.680 brothers don't. 439 00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:01.759 Agree, No, not agree with twist what I okay, I'm 440 00:23:01.759 --> 00:23:04.480 asking is there a unified teaching of unity in a law? No, 441 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:06.559 so there's debate over it. You know that. So you're 442 00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:08.359 trying to pin me into saying something I'm not saying. 443 00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:11.279 That's not my questions. 444 00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:14.799 You it's called a fallacy, Then it's a fallacy. Then 445 00:23:15.160 --> 00:23:20.440 do you know what that is? Okay, that's what the 446 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:23.920 fallacy is, making a simple question for a complex response. 447 00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:26.960 That's that's the problem always in questions like allow. 448 00:23:27.240 --> 00:23:28.160 That we know fallacy. 449 00:23:28.440 --> 00:23:31.279 That's the problem I'm asking. I'm asking a simple question. 450 00:23:31.960 --> 00:23:34.920 That's the fallacy position. That's the fallacy is that it 451 00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:36.400 requires a complex response. 452 00:23:36.519 --> 00:23:38.519 Questions that fallacy, I asked, It. 453 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:40.720 Is a fallacy. You don't even know that this is 454 00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:41.160 a fallacy. 455 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:44.440 You finished the question and stop interrupting. I asked a 456 00:23:44.480 --> 00:23:46.680 simple question. You can say yes or no. You can 457 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:48.640 say that's a fallacy. That is a fallacy, and can 458 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.759 make it, can make a judgment. I asked a simple question. 459 00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:53.960 Did the church fathers have an agreed These. 460 00:23:53.920 --> 00:23:56.519 Trips might work on your audience, they don't work over here. 461 00:23:57.119 --> 00:23:59.519 Okay, so you're just this is how Christians are always 462 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.559 We try to have questions. 463 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:05.400 You you create a complex question fallacy and make it 464 00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:07.079 an either or. That's why you keep saying it's a 465 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:09.400 simple question, not a simple question. It's a difficult question. 466 00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:12.799 Look you, is it a simple question about Allah and 467 00:24:12.799 --> 00:24:13.400 his attributes? 468 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:14.319 Is that a simple question? 469 00:24:14.880 --> 00:24:16.160 Yes, yes, it's simple. 470 00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:18.559 So there's not debates amongst the aqdas on that. 471 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:21.519 It is a simple question and I'm going to respond 472 00:24:21.559 --> 00:24:21.720 to it. 473 00:24:21.799 --> 00:24:23.640 But it's not a simple question, you know. 474 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.400 Okay, so what's the relationship volition? 475 00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:29.799 It's not going to worry. Okay, you're interrupting, and this 476 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:30.720 is not how this question. 477 00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:37.240 Is just because you're playing, You're you're erecting. False is 478 00:24:37.240 --> 00:24:39.400 a false either or a fallacy? Is that a fallacy? 479 00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:42.599 Is a false either or fallacy? 480 00:24:43.559 --> 00:24:45.200 If the mother answers are not going to enjoy it, 481 00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.440 so you won't answer, no, I can speak of my 482 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:51.240 opening statement about you asking me questions. It's my opening statement, 483 00:24:51.279 --> 00:24:51.720 not yours. 484 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:58.480 You opened your statement asking questions playing games. Dude, Come on, okay, 485 00:24:58.640 --> 00:24:59.079 how about this. 486 00:24:59.160 --> 00:25:01.680 How can you ask the question? And because Jay is 487 00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:05.240 saying that it's a complicated question, can you respond to it? 488 00:25:05.519 --> 00:25:07.400 And under a minute you can ask a question again 489 00:25:07.480 --> 00:25:09.319 it's complicated. You can have a minute to respond to 490 00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:09.680 the question. 491 00:25:09.720 --> 00:25:10.119 That's fair. 492 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:10.799 No. 493 00:25:10.839 --> 00:25:12.759 Look, look, I'm not going to ask him any questions 494 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:14.519 because what he's trying to do is just waste time. 495 00:25:15.400 --> 00:25:17.759 I was making a point. Then he said you misrepresented me. 496 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:20.319 I said, okay, go ahead, represent yourself. He doesn't want 497 00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:21.000 to represent himself. 498 00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:24.079 I'm saying, I already gave you. I gave you a 499 00:25:24.119 --> 00:25:26.359 super precise I don't want to represent myself when I 500 00:25:26.400 --> 00:25:28.400 gave you a super precise definition of the turnery. 501 00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:30.599 Come on, you didn't the question I didn't get. 502 00:25:30.599 --> 00:25:33.400 I gave you a five minute, super precise monarchical turn. 503 00:25:34.039 --> 00:25:36.680 Here's my argument. Anyways. Okay, so yeah, I'm not going 504 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:37.480 to ask you questions. 505 00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:40.200 I'm gonna I'm gonna say my opening statements like you did, 506 00:25:40.240 --> 00:25:41.559 like I love to speak with the interruption. 507 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:43.680 No, you don't get another five minutes. It's your fault 508 00:25:43.720 --> 00:25:46.920 that you asked me questions. A stupid thing to ask 509 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:48.960 me questions in your opening statement. That was dumb of you. 510 00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:55.519 Okay, okay, I'm gonna continue with my opening statement. 511 00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:56.759 Minutes how many? 512 00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:57.440 How many minutes? 513 00:25:57.480 --> 00:25:59.799 No, no, at the same time that you had I'm going. 514 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:00.440 To be continue. 515 00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:02.720 You've already gone for what four or five minutes. It's 516 00:26:02.759 --> 00:26:04.079 not you asked the question. 517 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:04.359 That's you. 518 00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:06.839 You've been talking to me. It's a waste of time. 519 00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:08.839 I'm not gonna waste my time allowing you. 520 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:10.359 You asked the question, and I'm. 521 00:26:10.200 --> 00:26:10.920 Going to continue. 522 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:13.359 I'm going to continue with my proposition and you can. 523 00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:15.359 You're not going to keep jumping by saying you're misrepresenting 524 00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:16.039 me as a strong man. 525 00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:16.400 You're going to. 526 00:26:19.039 --> 00:26:20.759 Like I listened to you, and then we can have 527 00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:22.599 a discussion and you can have one to one back 528 00:26:22.599 --> 00:26:23.720 and forth and you can say what everyone. 529 00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:27.640 We'll give you two minutes to finish your segment at 530 00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:28.359 least three minutes. 531 00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:31.440 Two minutes is nine off. First, he made multiple points. 532 00:26:31.640 --> 00:26:35.160 Okay, okay, without interruption, I'm going to continue now with 533 00:26:35.720 --> 00:26:38.200 whatever open statement this Okay, chist fathers were in complete 534 00:26:38.200 --> 00:26:42.079 disagreement on their beliefs and what constitutes the Trinity. There's 535 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:45.200 many quotes that I have over here I can demonstrate that. 536 00:26:45.640 --> 00:26:47.160 So to try and come and say there's kind of 537 00:26:47.119 --> 00:26:50.119 a unified agreement or whatever it is, that's completely not true. 538 00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:53.359 They had complete different beliefs from one another. I'm going 539 00:26:53.440 --> 00:26:57.000 to read just quickly. Maybe some of these positions so ignacious. 540 00:26:57.039 --> 00:26:59.039 For example, how to put a position of subordinism. You 541 00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:04.480 can lead in his Letter to Magnesians, chapter thirteen, be 542 00:27:04.680 --> 00:27:08.119 subject to the bishop and to one another, as Jesus 543 00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:09.160 Christ to the Father. 544 00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:11.839 So he believes that Jesus Christ was subject to the Father. 545 00:27:12.799 --> 00:27:15.240 You have scholars who say these positions, so it's not 546 00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:17.359 be taking a quotation off of context like some people 547 00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:18.640 who try to come and pretend. 548 00:27:18.920 --> 00:27:21.319 For example, Virginia crowd. 549 00:27:21.039 --> 00:27:23.720 Says in Ignesious and Christianity in Antioch in page one 550 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:26.559 hundred and forty three, none of these passages. After she's 551 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:30.880 mentioning some passages of the beliefs that Ignitius had adds 552 00:27:30.920 --> 00:27:33.640 to the understanding of the trinity meant to Ignitius. We 553 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.279 are forced to conclude there was a very undefined belief. Indeed, 554 00:27:38.279 --> 00:27:41.240 so he didn't have a defined belief. William Shaddel says 555 00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:46.599 in Ignacious Commentary, page twenty, Ignacious casually uses traitorian formulas. 556 00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:48.640 He does not. He makes little of them. 557 00:27:48.519 --> 00:27:51.279 Theologically, so he does not make theological arguments and repulse 558 00:27:51.400 --> 00:27:52.039 to the Trinity. 559 00:27:52.880 --> 00:27:55.119 So this is not a specific person believe. I can 560 00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:57.359 do the same thing with urinees. Now with the Trautulian, 561 00:27:57.359 --> 00:27:58.720 I don't have much tibe, but I can do that. 562 00:27:58.960 --> 00:28:00.799 He is welcome to USK, and I can give the 563 00:28:00.880 --> 00:28:03.519 quotations of every single one of them. Some of them 564 00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.039 would believe that the son was created by the father. 565 00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:08.759 Some of them would believe that the father is superior 566 00:28:08.799 --> 00:28:11.799 to the son. They're not co equal, as a doctor 567 00:28:11.839 --> 00:28:15.160 of the Trinity says, now, he says for ancest that 568 00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:17.480 it confirms the previous scriptures. Yeah, well, you know what 569 00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:19.039 it means. But confirms the previous scriptures. 570 00:28:19.039 --> 00:28:21.000 You can open up branch chapter five or seven forty 571 00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:21.799 seven forty. 572 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:23.880 Eight where it says that it's a criterion over it, 573 00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.319 which means whatever disagrees. That's not an e Jazz position, 574 00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:28.119 as you tried to make it as a Muslim position. 575 00:28:28.279 --> 00:28:30.079 And it is mentioned by scholars that the. 576 00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:32.480 Scripture is changed, and if it is changed, they know 577 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.319 ever would disagree with that, then we completely disagree with it. 578 00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:36.480 And what does confirm mean? 579 00:28:36.599 --> 00:28:38.960 It means it confirms that there was previous revelations that 580 00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:41.519 was revealed to the previous profits, and it confirms the 581 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:42.720 existence of previous profits. 582 00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:43.880 That's what confirmed means. 583 00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:46.279 Doesn't mean that we say that everything in there is 584 00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:50.559 completely Okay. You said proven a corrupted scripture, and not 585 00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:52.200 corrupted scripture is a corrupted scripture. 586 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:54.680 We don't try to prove Islam using the Bible. Let 587 00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:55.799 we never try to do that. 588 00:28:55.920 --> 00:28:57.599 You said, then ze a doctrine that you've made so 589 00:28:57.640 --> 00:29:01.799 many fallacies trying to equate an attribute to a part, 590 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:03.079 which is something that we don't believe. 591 00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:05.680 Where facy, So. 592 00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:07.799 You got one more minute? 593 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:11.720 Yeah, so we don't believe attributes are parts. We don't 594 00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:13.759 use that terminology when it comes to attributes. 595 00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:15.759 Of alara Yea. To say that just because God has. 596 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:18.880 Attributes that therefore God has many parts is ridiculous. 597 00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:19.400 To say that. 598 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:21.240 We say that a lie is not like anyone, and 599 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:22.960 we have an attribute, he has an attribue before he's 600 00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:25.240 like us. No, we believe for instance, Our knowledge is 601 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:27.400 limited is the dependent on all law. 602 00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:28.759 We don't know the future. 603 00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:31.759 We forget the knowledge of all lies ultimate. You knows 604 00:29:31.799 --> 00:29:34.720 the past, present of the future. He knows a hypothetical situation. 605 00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:36.359 So it's not the same. So do we say it's 606 00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:38.079 not like it, and it is not like it? Because 607 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:40.440 God's knowledge is perfect, hour knowledge is limited. And that 608 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:42.200 is the same with all of the attributes of God. 609 00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:44.279 The way a lot of posesses them is perfect, the 610 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:46.599 way you persist them or not. An attribute is something 611 00:29:46.640 --> 00:29:49.160 that does not exist, an abstract exist within something, and 612 00:29:49.200 --> 00:29:52.079 that something remains one. Nobody says that having attributes makes 613 00:29:52.119 --> 00:29:54.640 few more than one. I have love, compassion, hat, three year, 614 00:29:54.680 --> 00:29:56.880 all of that. No one says, therefore a hundred or 615 00:29:56.880 --> 00:29:58.519 two hundred because I have different attributes. 616 00:29:59.039 --> 00:29:59.720 Ridiculous. 617 00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:01.680 Yeah, so it's just to put it in. They like 618 00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:03.599 to say, black cannot exist whether it self has to 619 00:30:03.640 --> 00:30:06.039 exist in a shirt or an object. Attributes do not 620 00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:07.400 exist in vacuum. 621 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:09.839 Okay, Jane, we'll give you three minutes to respond. 622 00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:14.240 Yeah, I was foolish, schoolishness, because now this is my time. Dude, 623 00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:18.039 shut up the schoolishness because he admitted that the analogy 624 00:30:18.079 --> 00:30:20.640 that he gave to parts of a shirt, like attributes 625 00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:21.799 like color, the color black. 626 00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:22.759 Those are parts. 627 00:30:23.160 --> 00:30:25.160 And by the way, I didn't argue that you thought 628 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:26.799 all I had parts. I know that you don't think 629 00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:29.240 he does. My argument is that you contradict when you 630 00:30:29.279 --> 00:30:33.039 say that he has attributes that are dependent. Do you 631 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:36.839 believe that the attributes are self existent or they do 632 00:30:36.880 --> 00:30:39.839 they depend upon all his essence and amongst themselves in 633 00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:44.960 a dependence relationship. That's the question. 634 00:30:46.400 --> 00:30:48.960 Sure, okay, but then the three minutes. 635 00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:52.640 It's not forfeited. He asked me a question in his 636 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:55.160 opening statement. I can ask him a question, and. 637 00:30:55.119 --> 00:30:57.079 Then we decided to go three minutes back and forth. 638 00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:01.079 I mean, if we're going to do questions, then we 639 00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:03.680 can't do the three minutes. Underrupt it again. So okay, 640 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:06.440 un lets you respond to this muscle answer question thirty 641 00:31:06.440 --> 00:31:07.200 seconds to respond. 642 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:12.079 Yeah, he mentioned something about the color being a part. 643 00:31:12.359 --> 00:31:14.119 I mentioned many attributes like love and age and this, 644 00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:15.839 and that's that's that is a strong. 645 00:31:15.680 --> 00:31:18.880 Man, I said, are they dependent relationship? 646 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:21.880 Now to respond to the dependence or not dependence? We 647 00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:24.039 don't use the terminology a lot us user, so therefore 648 00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:26.640 I don't use it. I believe it's an attribute, and 649 00:31:26.839 --> 00:31:29.599 an attribute exists within the creator. 650 00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:31.720 We don't use the term dependent depend. 651 00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:37.079 Are the distinct and by the way, you do, do 652 00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:40.200 you do use that terminology and debates because Jake used 653 00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.200 that terminology in many of his debates. I'm not Jake, 654 00:31:42.680 --> 00:31:44.240 I know, but what you're saying, you know, you guys 655 00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:45.519 don't use that terminology he did. 656 00:31:46.400 --> 00:31:48.599 I'm talking about from an Islamic position. 657 00:31:49.400 --> 00:31:52.119 So are they dependent on himself? Okay? So in other words, 658 00:31:52.119 --> 00:31:54.519 you have a doublet you have a double standard. Notice 659 00:31:54.519 --> 00:31:56.319 that he has a double standard to where in his 660 00:31:56.440 --> 00:31:58.680 position he's allowed to say, I don't have to answer 661 00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:00.000 these questions. I don't know the relationship. 662 00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:03.000 That is what you said. You said, we don't have 663 00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:05.920 to answer that. That's what you said dependent. 664 00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:07.240 I asked you what you mean. 665 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:07.799 Are they are saying? 666 00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:11.759 Are they are saying you have to are they are said? 667 00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:16.480 Are they self existent? Are they self existing? I'm sorry, 668 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:17.960 you don't know the terms. Are they self existent? 669 00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:20.480 What do you mean by self existence? 670 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:22.440 Do they exist of themselves? You don't know that word. 671 00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:25.240 They exist within the created? As I said to. 672 00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:29.480 You, they're dependent will Allah, they exist will Allah, And 673 00:32:29.599 --> 00:32:32.039 there's nothing that exists separate from his attributes. 674 00:32:32.039 --> 00:32:33.839 You're making are the attributes. 675 00:32:35.039 --> 00:32:38.599 It's it's a classic debate within Youraquita you Raquita's debate 676 00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:39.200 this and you know. 677 00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:41.880 That I don't know what you don't. 678 00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:44.160 Know what a school is. Now he's lying like he's 679 00:32:44.160 --> 00:32:46.160 playing like he doesn't. This is what they do. They 680 00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.279 pretend that they don't know. These are classic debates that 681 00:32:48.319 --> 00:32:50.599 they killed each other over the relationship of like like 682 00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:54.480 the Mutazila, the Multa, the Salafi, you all do this 683 00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:54.799 does all? 684 00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:56.079 I have an uncreated foot. 685 00:32:57.240 --> 00:33:01.039 Okay, so you talked about what did they leave the 686 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:03.079 give me the four principles of five. 687 00:33:02.960 --> 00:33:03.440 Principles and. 688 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:08.279 The neo platon the neol So here's what he does. 689 00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:12.240 So he's deflecting away because he won't answer these questions. 690 00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:14.119 Notice he won't answer their questions. 691 00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:16.400 Argument. So, whether it's the people who believe in the 692 00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:18.759 body parts of all law or whether it's the neo 693 00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:20.279 platon is, he won't answer. 694 00:33:22.039 --> 00:33:24.000 They have the same position as the neo platonist. 695 00:33:24.039 --> 00:33:24.400 She do. 696 00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:26.720 That's what you said to present. 697 00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:29.079 You're not No, I don't have. 698 00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:31.240 To define your schools for you. You tell me what. 699 00:33:31.759 --> 00:33:34.400 So you don't have it. It doesn't matter the four principles. 700 00:33:34.400 --> 00:33:36.920 When you can't answer the question, if you can't notice, 701 00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:39.200 he won't answer the question of Allah and the attributes 702 00:33:39.160 --> 00:33:41.680 of relation because he doesn't know what the word self existed. 703 00:33:41.720 --> 00:33:44.720 And I mean, you're incorrectly what's your position? 704 00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:48.400 I don't care about them. What's your position? What's your position? 705 00:33:49.480 --> 00:33:50.039 My positions? 706 00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:54.720 Which is what? So you're obfuscating. 707 00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:55.759 You got to give me a question. 708 00:33:55.799 --> 00:33:58.920 And then what is the relationship of Allah to his attributes? 709 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:00.400 Are they? Are they as or not? 710 00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:03.799 I responded, You're going to know you're doing it. 711 00:34:03.799 --> 00:34:06.960 You're deflecting, and you're you're collapsing human The attribute is 712 00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:07.920 not everyone knows this. 713 00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:08.559 No they don't. 714 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:10.639 You're saying that you're you're saying your schools don't debate 715 00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:14.639 this is you don't even know what. 716 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:18.079 It doesn't matter what you do, It doesn't matter. Maybe 717 00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:20.320 I don't know anything. Maybe I don't know anything. That's 718 00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.920 a fallacy. That doesn't prove your position. Okay, so you're 719 00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:24.760 a fallacy machine. 720 00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:29.159 So you can't answer this basic question, can you? You 721 00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:31.559 don't know the relationship of all to his attributes. For 722 00:34:31.599 --> 00:34:35.320 the fourth time, but you didn't answer. 723 00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:36.599 I told you, deflect. 724 00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:41.199 I told you the attributes of Allah are not something 725 00:34:41.239 --> 00:34:43.880 that we say is a part or separated from a lot. 726 00:34:43.880 --> 00:34:44.320 Believe that. 727 00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:45.559 How does that solve the question? 728 00:34:45.800 --> 00:34:46.280 So are they? 729 00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:46.480 Are? 730 00:34:46.480 --> 00:34:47.000 They? 731 00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:49.559 Just like you cannot separate my love and hate from me? 732 00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:53.480 But those are parts of you that I thought all 733 00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:56.039 that is nothing like I thought. He's nothing like creatures. 734 00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:57.880 I thought he's nothing like creatures. 735 00:34:58.039 --> 00:34:59.599 You say the sport, So it shows that. 736 00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:01.559 You are saying you said the parts. 737 00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:03.880 You can't understand that I'm putting you into. 738 00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:05.320 A putzel bar like a kid. 739 00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:06.000 Like a child. 740 00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.320 You're just exposing your ignorance attribute parts because that's your position. 741 00:35:12.360 --> 00:35:15.559 You contradicted yourself when you compared it to parts of 742 00:35:15.599 --> 00:35:16.039 your shirt. 743 00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:20.880 Dude, does your shirt have parts? Does your shirt have parts? 744 00:35:21.880 --> 00:35:23.840 Now I go back to the dollarscript. Now I go 745 00:35:23.920 --> 00:35:27.280 back to the dogars script. You you have none or 746 00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:27.880 nine gods? 747 00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:30.199 Independent? Existence is independent? 748 00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:32.880 Wells oh, so now you know the word I'll say. 749 00:35:33.159 --> 00:35:34.119 Now you know what I'll say. 750 00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:34.320 You mean? 751 00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:36.840 So this guy's a snake. Look, he knows what the 752 00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:39.119 word I say means. He pretended like you didn't know earlier, 753 00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.039 because now he says, the trinity is that they're not independent. 754 00:35:42.679 --> 00:35:46.440 We don't believe in independent exists. They're not independent. That's 755 00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:47.159 not our position. 756 00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:49.760 I'm prostrating to him. That's not attribute. 757 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:51.880 You don't even you don't even know what I already refuted. 758 00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:57.559 That's when I gave you monarchical trinitarianism. All he does, 759 00:35:57.960 --> 00:35:59.679 that's monarchical trinitarianism. 760 00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:01.679 That's the position I gave you the outset. 761 00:36:01.679 --> 00:36:03.559 Losing it and acting like a child. And I think 762 00:36:03.599 --> 00:36:04.639 you gotta know because. 763 00:36:04.519 --> 00:36:07.119 You're saying this, because you literally didn't answer any of 764 00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:08.679 the questions I asked you about the attributes. 765 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:11.920 You said parts like shirts. Shirts have parts. Dude, that's 766 00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:12.679 your analogy. 767 00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.079 I said, black I think that's part of you. 768 00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.079 You don't think shirt. You know, so blackness is not 769 00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:18.039 part of your shirt? 770 00:36:18.679 --> 00:36:19.639 Showed me the existence of. 771 00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:23.480 What does that have to do? It's a part. Say 772 00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:24.599 it's accidental. I don't care. 773 00:36:24.960 --> 00:36:26.000 It's not attribute. 774 00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:29.880 And also so it's an attribute of a shirt which 775 00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:30.760 is made up of parts. 776 00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:32.360 Okay, okay, Well. 777 00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:36.159 So you use the analogy to a creature when all 778 00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:39.159 is nothing like creatures, I'll give. 779 00:36:39.079 --> 00:36:39.519 It an imergy. 780 00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:41.239 So well, like you said, they can't understand. We can't 781 00:36:41.239 --> 00:36:42.519 have attributes on a. 782 00:36:41.960 --> 00:36:44.519 Look, but All is nothing like creatures, so it doesn't. 783 00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:46.400 Work his attributes. That does not what we mean. 784 00:36:46.440 --> 00:36:48.920 No Muslims called in Isamic history, he said that there's 785 00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:49.280 nothing like. 786 00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:50.760 It means he doesn't have attributes. 787 00:36:51.840 --> 00:36:53.960 No, it says that he's nothing like creatures. 788 00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:56.119 So it's a contradiction. 789 00:36:57.119 --> 00:36:58.760 The attributes of all lot makes me perfect. 790 00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:01.239 We can have attributes, butted attribute the creator can have 791 00:37:01.320 --> 00:37:01.920 Mexic prefect. 792 00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:04.079 I know you believe that, but you don't even understand 793 00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:07.840 the contradiction. I'm pointing out, how is there a comparison 794 00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:10.199 of all to creatures when he's nothing like creatures. 795 00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:12.440 You compared him to your shirt and the parts of 796 00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:12.920 your shirt? 797 00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:15.719 What do you mean? What do you mean by nothing like? 798 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:19.599 What do you mean by that? Like honestly such a 799 00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:20.119 child thing? 800 00:37:20.199 --> 00:37:21.760 What do you mean by it? There's nothing like love? 801 00:37:21.960 --> 00:37:23.599 What we mean by I mean when it says that 802 00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:26.679 in the in forty two it says Allah is nothing 803 00:37:26.840 --> 00:37:27.400 like creatures. 804 00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:31.159 Okay, And I responded to you and you gave. 805 00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:33.920 An analogy of a created shirt and it's parts. 806 00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.719 No, No, I didn't do that, Yes, you did, as 807 00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:37.599 I said. 808 00:37:37.000 --> 00:37:39.199 You just said that. Look, he says, no, I did 809 00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:42.199 not know that. You said, the black on my shirt 810 00:37:42.719 --> 00:37:43.440 is an attribute. 811 00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:46.320 Colors? I said, colors don't exist at abstract. 812 00:37:46.400 --> 00:37:47.480 What does that have to sell? 813 00:37:47.519 --> 00:37:49.000 That has to exist, has to exist. 814 00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:51.800 It's so, is your shirt that created analogy? Is it 815 00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:53.480 a created analogy? 816 00:37:53.519 --> 00:37:54.000 The shirt? 817 00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:55.760 Is it a created analogy? 818 00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:58.320 The color black is an attrib Is. 819 00:37:58.239 --> 00:37:58.960 It an analogy? 820 00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:02.239 Create the things analogous to law? 821 00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:02.840 That's the point. 822 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:06.679 No, you're just not answering, you're avoiding it. So you're 823 00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:10.039 using creative things with parts that are composite as an 824 00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:12.239 analogy to Allah, who's nothing like creatures. 825 00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:15.800 All right, let's do timing because as you can see, it's. 826 00:38:15.719 --> 00:38:18.719 Just because he's running over me. Let's do the do 827 00:38:18.840 --> 00:38:20.440 the timing because I can't do it. 828 00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:22.719 Because other people. 829 00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:26.519 Well, we'll go, we'll resume from Jay's question, and then 830 00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:28.440 we'll do thirty seconds back and forth. He shian, I'm 831 00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:30.000 going to be specific with the timers. So Jay, can 832 00:38:30.039 --> 00:38:30.719 you repeat your question? 833 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:33.920 And the other question was very explicitly, you made an 834 00:38:33.960 --> 00:38:39.320 analogy to Allah and his attributes to a shirt with 835 00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:44.079 parts and accidental things like colors. When the Quran says 836 00:38:44.119 --> 00:38:47.760 twice that Allah is nothing like creatures. So your analogy 837 00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:49.480 doesn't work and it doesn't tell us anything. How do 838 00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:50.039 you resolve that? 839 00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:51.960 Thirty seconds? 840 00:38:52.400 --> 00:38:55.239 Okay, I never made that. He doesn't understand what he's 841 00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:57.559 talking about. I made an analogy for him about the 842 00:38:57.559 --> 00:39:00.480 idea of an attribute, the attributes. Now the analogies to 843 00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:02.280 do the attributes, not to do with all lies conflicting 844 00:39:02.280 --> 00:39:02.519 the two. 845 00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:05.119 It's not the idea is that attributes do not existing. 846 00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:08.119 Come on, yeah, he can't do it right. 847 00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:10.159 The attributes do not exist and abstract they have to 848 00:39:10.280 --> 00:39:12.960 exist to them something. They're not saparable, they're not parts. 849 00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:14.920 And that's how we look at that. 850 00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:17.320 It's not like anything that's attributes are maximally perfect. They're 851 00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:19.159 not like ours. Simple. It's very very simple. 852 00:39:19.199 --> 00:39:21.400 And people listening, he doesn't even unerstand the critique. 853 00:39:24.880 --> 00:39:27.119 Okay, do you want to do the question thing? So 854 00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:28.440 I should give. 855 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:29.440 It so once again? 856 00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:33.639 Okay, okay, so now let's let's let answer respond with 857 00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:35.280 the question. But we have to do uninterrupted or else 858 00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:36.840 this is a this is waste of time. So I'll 859 00:39:36.880 --> 00:39:39.320 let answer pose a question here. You could also respond 860 00:39:39.920 --> 00:39:41.719 to where you wanted the last one, but the thirty 861 00:39:41.719 --> 00:39:42.960 seconds back and forth, answer and. 862 00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:46.719 Go ahead, all right, So he agreed that the trinity 863 00:39:46.760 --> 00:39:49.119 means that the three persons are quote equal quotes. We 864 00:39:49.159 --> 00:39:51.960 look at Jesus and Mark thirteen thirty two, who explicitly 865 00:39:52.039 --> 00:39:54.760 mentions and says that he does not know the hour 866 00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:56.239 while the Father knows the hour. 867 00:39:56.280 --> 00:39:57.719 And I can bring a quote from a church father 868 00:39:57.800 --> 00:39:58.079 right now. 869 00:39:58.039 --> 00:40:01.960 Always explaining that this priority of the father over the 870 00:40:02.000 --> 00:40:04.000 son did not equal because one of them knows when 871 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:05.400 the hour is going to happen, the other doesn't know. 872 00:40:05.559 --> 00:40:07.400 GeSe is going to say that his human nature, it's 873 00:40:07.400 --> 00:40:10.719 irrelevant because he had both natures, divine and human natures. 874 00:40:10.719 --> 00:40:12.719 You cannot come and say does the human nature? So 875 00:40:12.800 --> 00:40:14.519 how does Jesus not know something? 876 00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:16.000 And you clear that he's equal to the Father and 877 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:18.079 the Holy Spirit doesn't know as well, because the verse 878 00:40:18.079 --> 00:40:20.360 says only the Father knows Mark thirteen thirty two. 879 00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:22.519 Okay, do you have a question to follow up? 880 00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:27.000 I know is he is supposed to answer right? Question? Answer? 881 00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:27.880 Did you? 882 00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:28.280 Well? 883 00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:29.360 Was the question? 884 00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:30.840 The question is how. 885 00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:35.320 It's about Jesus? Yeah, so I agree, I agree, understands yeah, 886 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:36.960 and no I don't answer it the way he thought 887 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:38.400 I was going to answer. I answer it according to 888 00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:40.840 the way Saint Basil does in letter two thirty five 889 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:43.840 and six, where he says that the limitation there is 890 00:40:43.880 --> 00:40:46.320 a form of rhetoric or exaggeration, which Jesus does in 891 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.480 many places where he says, for example, that there's none 892 00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:51.119 good but the Father. Does that mean that no one 893 00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:53.519 else is good? No, it's rhetoric because in other places 894 00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:56.679 he also qualifies that and says that the Son also 895 00:40:56.840 --> 00:40:59.000 is good. He says that people are good, the Holy 896 00:40:59.039 --> 00:41:00.800 Spirit is good, a good man will do this or that. 897 00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:03.239 So no, when he says things like that, we have 898 00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:07.800 a consistent exegetical pattern as to how we explain those passages, 899 00:41:08.119 --> 00:41:10.239 and we don't believe the Bible contradicts. So there are 900 00:41:10.280 --> 00:41:13.880 passages that talk about the subordination, which, if he understood 901 00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:17.280 what monarchical trinitarianism is, we recognize a subordination of the 902 00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:20.079 son to the Father, but not according to essence. So 903 00:41:20.119 --> 00:41:23.280 he doesn't understand that that's different. That's a different theology 904 00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:27.000 than he has. He thinks that distinction entails like differences 905 00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:29.840 in terms of ontology. We believe that just as a 906 00:41:29.880 --> 00:41:32.280 son can show the same nature as his father. He 907 00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:34.519 can be subject to the father. That doesn't doesn't mean 908 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:36.679 the father has more human nature than a son. That's 909 00:41:36.679 --> 00:41:39.199 an analogy. Your position, by the way, doesn't make sense 910 00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:41.480 in terms of analogies, because you said you made an 911 00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:45.320 analogy to help me. But your very analogy doesn't work 912 00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:49.280 because Allah's attributes and his existence are nothing like the 913 00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:51.360 thing and things in the created order, So your analogy 914 00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:53.719 doesn't work. That was the critique, and you just keep 915 00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:55.719 saying that was a. 916 00:41:55.639 --> 00:41:58.840 Bit over a minute on Langard. If you responded a minute, yeah. 917 00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.679 Okay, I was pulling very, very simply. That's how Christians 918 00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:03.719 try to away from this scripture. I just said, I 919 00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:08.199 can present quotations that can present commentary if people explicitly 920 00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:11.559 saying that this is an issue, that one knows something 921 00:42:11.559 --> 00:42:12.760 well the other doesn't know something. 922 00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:14.440 But oh, this is just sy meetric critric. 923 00:42:14.760 --> 00:42:16.320 Jesus says there's no one good but the Father. He 924 00:42:16.360 --> 00:42:18.559 means ultimately good. Yes, there is no one perfect in 925 00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:19.719 his goodness except the Father. 926 00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:21.199 We agree there's no issues there. 927 00:42:21.239 --> 00:42:23.400 So that verse that Jesus says doesn't have an issue, 928 00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:25.320 we also agree with. He says he doesn't know that 929 00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:27.400 he doesn't know. And you cannot be God and you 930 00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:29.880 don't know something because God knows everything all the time, 931 00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:31.840 so you cannot run away from the subject in something. 932 00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:33.679 And you said, by the way, the son is subject 933 00:42:33.679 --> 00:42:35.320 to the father, you believe the son is subject of exactly, 934 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:35.679 so it's. 935 00:42:35.559 --> 00:42:36.320 Subject to the Father. 936 00:42:36.559 --> 00:42:38.800 They're not quite equal in the sense that they are 937 00:42:38.880 --> 00:42:41.360 equal in every position, in every way, every shing. And 938 00:42:41.400 --> 00:42:43.199 that's why we say that what you call the Father 939 00:42:43.320 --> 00:42:43.920 is a true God, but. 940 00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:46.079 Jesus is someone who's subjected to him. There is not 941 00:42:46.119 --> 00:42:46.639 some belief. 942 00:42:47.760 --> 00:42:49.639 Okay, Jay figures find in a minute. 943 00:42:50.119 --> 00:42:52.679 Yeah, but you're missing the point that at the beginning 944 00:42:52.719 --> 00:42:55.079 I said that I wouldn't immediately commit to your understanding 945 00:42:55.079 --> 00:42:57.280 of the words coequal, because in some ways they are 946 00:42:57.320 --> 00:42:59.719 equal in terms of power and in terms of nature, 947 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:01.960 but that doesn't mean they're equal in every sense. So 948 00:43:01.960 --> 00:43:05.000 that's why I was hesitant to agree to your tricks 949 00:43:05.039 --> 00:43:08.320 of terminology there with making it simple and making it easy. 950 00:43:08.679 --> 00:43:11.599 That's why I use monarchical trinitarianism, which again to use 951 00:43:11.639 --> 00:43:14.440 the analogy of a father or a king and his son. 952 00:43:14.639 --> 00:43:18.199 The king and the son the prince possessed the same natures. 953 00:43:18.239 --> 00:43:20.800 The king is not more human than the son, and 954 00:43:20.920 --> 00:43:23.719 yet the son still is subject to the Father. This 955 00:43:23.800 --> 00:43:26.679 is orthodox trinitarianism. I'm not a Roman Catholic, so this 956 00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:29.039 is our position, which I stated from the very outset 957 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:30.639 in the first five minutes. But you just didn't know 958 00:43:30.639 --> 00:43:33.199 about that. But when you gave your analogy again of 959 00:43:33.199 --> 00:43:36.159 the attributes, you didn't answer the question. You avoided it, 960 00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:37.760 you ignored it, and you wanted to switch over into 961 00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:39.960 the question of Jesus knowledge, Which is fine. I don't 962 00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:42.440 have a problem of mentioning the fact that Jesus uses 963 00:43:42.760 --> 00:43:45.320 rhetoric and exaggerated language all the time. He says if 964 00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:47.880 your hand caused you to cut it off, He's not 965 00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:50.480 saying literally cut your hand off. He's also not saying 966 00:43:50.519 --> 00:43:52.239 that no one is good but the Father. 967 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:53.280 It's rhetoric. 968 00:43:53.400 --> 00:43:55.719 So in the same way he can express that the 969 00:43:55.719 --> 00:44:00.159 Father is the sole source of all existence, goodness, knowledge, etc. U. 970 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.159 And yet at the same time the other passages also 971 00:44:03.239 --> 00:44:06.119 confirm in John five and six that Jesus has all 972 00:44:06.159 --> 00:44:10.360 the same powers, knowledge, and activities as the Father. Everything 973 00:44:10.360 --> 00:44:12.239 the Father has has been committed to the son. So 974 00:44:12.440 --> 00:44:15.360 you selectively choose the passages, and I want to go 975 00:44:15.400 --> 00:44:17.679 back to my question. Then, how do you know which 976 00:44:17.760 --> 00:44:21.039 passages are the correct passages in the Bible and which 977 00:44:21.079 --> 00:44:25.280 ones are the corrupted ones? When Allah's work cannot be corrupted. 978 00:44:25.639 --> 00:44:30.400 And I'm told in uh five four, well over. 979 00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:32.559 A minute, I'll if you can response to that question. 980 00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:33.840 I'll give you ninety seconds. 981 00:44:34.119 --> 00:44:34.400 All right. 982 00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:36.679 I'm very happy that. Look he shows that he changes 983 00:44:36.679 --> 00:44:39.000 his position. He agreed, and I said, is that the trinity? 984 00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:40.320 He shakes his head and he said, yes. 985 00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:42.320 Now he knows that this is going to be problematic, 986 00:44:42.400 --> 00:44:43.639 so he admits that they're not equal. 987 00:44:43.719 --> 00:44:45.719 That I'm happy. That's it. That's what we will not. 988 00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:49.519 No, you're just you're just confused on the interrupting. 989 00:44:49.599 --> 00:44:51.639 Don't interrupt. Shut up. Like you said to me, I'll 990 00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:52.639 say the same thing. 991 00:44:52.760 --> 00:44:56.079 They're not they're not equal. With your own statement, you 992 00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:58.480 said that they are not equally. Yes, they are not equal. Exactly, 993 00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:00.519 so we believe is Muslims, the father, who you call 994 00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:02.199 the father superior to what you call the son. You 995 00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:04.480 give an analogy of king and son. Exactly, the king 996 00:45:04.800 --> 00:45:06.280 came as the son is superior to the son. 997 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:07.280 It's not equal to him. 998 00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:08.760 So ill nature. 999 00:45:09.000 --> 00:45:09.559 You're lying. 1000 00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:11.400 I said your nature. 1001 00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:16.519 You're interrupting again. You're interrupting it. Say thank you, please 1002 00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.079 don't interrupt. When it comes to e retric and a 1003 00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:20.800 retric they run away from. 1004 00:45:20.679 --> 00:45:21.440 Anything which is key. 1005 00:45:21.480 --> 00:45:23.440 For example, I'll bring him now, John seventeen three. When 1006 00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:25.840 Jesus say is explicitly it is no true God. The 1007 00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:27.559 only true God is the Father. He says, the only 1008 00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:29.639 true God addressing the Father is the only true God, 1009 00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:32.440 and he doesn't get, which means that any other deity 1010 00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:35.079 is false. We have all of the Bible Jesus making 1011 00:45:35.199 --> 00:45:37.000 statements that can be a pei divine. I can say 1012 00:45:37.000 --> 00:45:39.000 it's retaker as well. Anyone can say a trick. Okay, 1013 00:45:39.000 --> 00:45:40.840 whatever verse you got to bring up is also the trick. 1014 00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:43.119 And we play this game which versitt all life. We 1015 00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:46.079 just call it a retric. The game with playing with 1016 00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:48.079 these things that don't agree with you is you try 1017 00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:50.239 to escape the position and the fact that Jesus subordinate 1018 00:45:50.320 --> 00:45:50.880 is submissive. 1019 00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:52.280 So you have people arguing it in. 1020 00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:54.039 The counsel of m I say, and other councils because 1021 00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:56.960 they believe they was subordinated, didn't believe he was equal. 1022 00:45:57.119 --> 00:45:59.079 You have tons of harrisies due to that, because the 1023 00:45:59.119 --> 00:46:01.960 trinity makes no sense. Now you lie by the way, 1024 00:46:02.000 --> 00:46:03.719 and you said, there's a verse in John. This is 1025 00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:05.519 that they have the same power, they have the same knowledge, 1026 00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:07.679 You have the same wisdom. Whoever it is, I head 1027 00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:10.519 and read that verse for us exactly what it says. 1028 00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:12.480 Now you said in the Paranah'm responding to what you said, 1029 00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:15.519 the paran which verse which verses are product, to which 1030 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:17.639 verses are not. Whoever agrees with the poran we believe 1031 00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:21.280 that is therefore accepted untrue. Whatever it disagrees, we reject. 1032 00:46:21.320 --> 00:46:23.679 Whatever doesn't agree or disagree. We are agnostic about it. 1033 00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:25.320 That is the Islamic position given by the prophet. 1034 00:46:25.360 --> 00:46:27.559 And now you. 1035 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:32.119 Ninety tects respond, Yeah, this guy's playing games because he 1036 00:46:32.199 --> 00:46:35.760 knows that nobody interprets any text as if every single 1037 00:46:35.800 --> 00:46:39.599 phrase or idea that is expressed is in that single text. 1038 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:42.000 The trinity is a doctrine that's derived from all the 1039 00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:44.280 texts of the scriptures, not from this or that verse. 1040 00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:47.039 And so he's setting up a false criteria for me 1041 00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:50.960 to use the exact terminology in any single verse. Jesus 1042 00:46:51.000 --> 00:46:54.159 says in John sixteen fifteen that everything that the Father 1043 00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:56.840 has has been given to the Son. That means all 1044 00:46:56.880 --> 00:46:59.920 of his existence, all of his powers, all of his attributes. 1045 00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:03.239 Son also shares. I answered his question when he asked, 1046 00:47:03.320 --> 00:47:07.480 what use equal? Yeah, co equal in nature. Hence the 1047 00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:10.719 example of the Father in the Son being distinct persons, 1048 00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:14.599 same in nature, equal in nature. Equal in nature means 1049 00:47:14.599 --> 00:47:17.119 that equal in the power that proceeds from that nature. 1050 00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:21.400 So yes, throughout the Gospel of John, every chapter, every book, 1051 00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:24.159 excuse me, every chapter in the Book of John includes 1052 00:47:24.199 --> 00:47:26.480 a reference to the deed of Christ and or a 1053 00:47:26.559 --> 00:47:29.800 reference to the triad. No goofus. That doesn't mean the 1054 00:47:29.800 --> 00:47:32.519 word trinity is in the book. It means the concept 1055 00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:34.280 the teaching of the Trinity is in the book, just 1056 00:47:34.320 --> 00:47:36.480 like it's throughout the Old Testament, not the words. It 1057 00:47:36.519 --> 00:47:38.960 doesn't have to have the words. That's your criteria that 1058 00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.480 you are made up for me. Now, I asked you 1059 00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:45.159 a specific question about you going to the text and 1060 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:49.519 the prior revelation of what your criteria was. You ignored it, 1061 00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:51.760 you didn't answer it. I want to know what is 1062 00:47:51.800 --> 00:47:55.239 your criteria for knowing when in the Old Testament it's 1063 00:47:55.280 --> 00:47:57.280 true and when it's false. Is it not the Quran, 1064 00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:58.239 the very thing in question. 1065 00:48:00.079 --> 00:48:01.960 It's for Lanzwern, all right. 1066 00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:05.000 So clearly he said it is not from a part 1067 00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:06.480 of the things, is derived from everything. 1068 00:48:06.519 --> 00:48:06.880 It is not. 1069 00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:09.199 He's essentially saying it's not clear, which is what we 1070 00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:11.920 love to hear, is that the doctrine of the Trinity 1071 00:48:11.960 --> 00:48:14.519 is not clear in the Bible thattually. That's why I said, 1072 00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:16.880 I can preserve any quotes from church Father in which 1073 00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:18.920 they disagree with one another and what they believe the 1074 00:48:18.920 --> 00:48:20.639 Son was and the Father was. You had all of 1075 00:48:20.679 --> 00:48:23.559 these counsels, You had all of these disagreements, theoretical people 1076 00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:26.440 who were killed because the idea of the Trinity is 1077 00:48:26.480 --> 00:48:27.760 not there. I never asked him for the word. He 1078 00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:29.840 like tried to strow man as I ask him, where 1079 00:48:29.920 --> 00:48:30.480 is the word trinity? 1080 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:31.000 I never said that. 1081 00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:33.159 I said the concept. That's why I started by defining. 1082 00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:35.440 He didn't answer John seventeen three, because he knows it's 1083 00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:37.440 a thorn in his side. 1084 00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:38.519 When I said, Jesus. 1085 00:48:38.239 --> 00:48:40.800 Said the only true God is the Father, he did 1086 00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:42.920 not respond to that, or he completely ignored it. I 1087 00:48:42.920 --> 00:48:45.079 responded to his question about the verses, which verses I 1088 00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:47.960 said to you, I ever agrees with Islam generally, Alan 1089 00:48:48.000 --> 00:48:50.039 had it, we will accept that this statement is true. 1090 00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:50.760 So when it says in. 1091 00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:53.199 John and the Shrowby sixty four that there's one God, 1092 00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:54.079 we except that it's true. 1093 00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:54.599 No problem. 1094 00:48:54.760 --> 00:48:57.159 Anything which would disagree we were rejected. Like if something 1095 00:48:57.199 --> 00:48:59.599 says Jesus died, we could say that it's also is corrupted. 1096 00:49:00.199 --> 00:49:03.480 Change now, lad By, Because scholars agree that the Bible 1097 00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:05.280 has been corrupted, I don't need to do any a 1098 00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:07.559 lot of research regarding that. Now, what you said the 1099 00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:10.679 God's words doesn't change. Change that verse you quote. It 1100 00:49:10.920 --> 00:49:14.159 is talking about a lost promise, and you're quoting it 1101 00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:13.920 out of. 1102 00:49:15.480 --> 00:49:15.920 Context. 1103 00:49:15.960 --> 00:49:17.519 Is like I said, I don't change my words. I 1104 00:49:17.599 --> 00:49:19.719 keep my words. We're talking about promises. We're not talking 1105 00:49:19.760 --> 00:49:22.360 about the revelation of the previous structures, because the Kuran 1106 00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:25.559 already explains that the revelation of the previous scriptures has 1107 00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:27.639 been changed. Now he said whatever the Father has been 1108 00:49:27.639 --> 00:49:29.719 given been given to me. That's clearly not the case, 1109 00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:31.599 because Jesus did not know, and he said he didn't know, 1110 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:33.119 and he said only the Father knows. And what he 1111 00:49:33.159 --> 00:49:35.039 means by that is not talking about attributes. 1112 00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:37.480 Perfect Jay ninety seconds. 1113 00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.159 Yeah. I notice he did not answer the exact challenge 1114 00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:42.559 I gave him. I asked him what the epistemic criteria was, 1115 00:49:42.920 --> 00:49:46.239 and he said that the Quran backs up the promises 1116 00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:48.360 of prior revelation when it's worth So, in other words, 1117 00:49:48.400 --> 00:49:51.760 the Quran proves the Quran by citing the Quran passages 1118 00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.480 in the Old Testament. And yet we read in the 1119 00:49:54.559 --> 00:49:57.639 Quran that it actually says that you can go to 1120 00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:00.480 the prior revelation to see that the new rebelation is 1121 00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:03.199 consistent with it. We have revealed to you a prophet, 1122 00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:07.119 the Book of truth, confirmation in the previous scriptures, and 1123 00:50:07.199 --> 00:50:10.440 a supreme authority upon them. So you judge between them 1124 00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:14.760 what Allah has revealed. And now he's admitting what was 1125 00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:19.119 his source. Many scholars say the Bible's corrupted. Oh really, 1126 00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:22.519 so many scholars who are atheist unbelieving. Is what you 1127 00:50:22.639 --> 00:50:25.199 go to, not to your prophet Muhammad, who said that 1128 00:50:25.239 --> 00:50:27.960 you can go to the prior Jewish Torah scriptures and 1129 00:50:28.039 --> 00:50:32.760 Christian scriptures. Those scriptures confirm supposedly what's in the Qoran. 1130 00:50:33.159 --> 00:50:36.039 You just said, no, they're all corrupt. So Allah and 1131 00:50:36.239 --> 00:50:39.360 Muhammad are directing me to go to a corrupt book 1132 00:50:39.480 --> 00:50:41.559 to prove your book. You don't see how silly that is. 1133 00:50:41.559 --> 00:50:43.559 And then when I ask you for a standard, you said, 1134 00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:45.800 the standard is the Koran. But the thing in question 1135 00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:48.960 is the Koran. So you're in a circ gole, a 1136 00:50:49.000 --> 00:50:52.000 circ goal. And it's a fallacy to appeal to authorities 1137 00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:53.320 to say we all know the boby, let's come up. 1138 00:50:53.320 --> 00:50:55.320 That that's a fallacy. I know you guys don't know 1139 00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:59.639 what fallacies are the Haram in Islam, logical fallacies, right, 1140 00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:01.559 logic is haram? 1141 00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:03.559 So uh, what's the standard again? 1142 00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:07.880 Okay? Ninety seconds for a muscle lantern? 1143 00:51:08.639 --> 00:51:10.880 And he said, I think givemcretia. I clearly did. 1144 00:51:10.920 --> 00:51:13.039 I said, to agree with the crad had it it is, 1145 00:51:13.079 --> 00:51:14.880 we accepted, wheree to reject it. 1146 00:51:14.920 --> 00:51:18.159 He said, proves nobody here is talking about proving the Kran. 1147 00:51:18.440 --> 00:51:22.440 Nobody's also talking about the Koran proving the Bible. 1148 00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:25.480 You just misunderstanding things here, and you're just completing terms 1149 00:51:25.480 --> 00:51:26.800 and you're just going around in circle. 1150 00:51:26.840 --> 00:51:29.400 Nobody's talking about anything proving anything. I already explained to 1151 00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:31.280 you what the word confirmed there means. You clearly don't 1152 00:51:31.320 --> 00:51:33.559 understand what you're saying. There's nothing there that says that 1153 00:51:33.679 --> 00:51:35.719 is proving it the verst you that is refreating you 1154 00:51:35.800 --> 00:51:36.480 mentioned refuty. 1155 00:51:36.519 --> 00:51:38.360 I was laughing, how could you read this verse? I 1156 00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:39.360 think is supporting you. 1157 00:51:39.519 --> 00:51:41.679 First of all, the chapter five of the krevers forty eight, 1158 00:51:41.719 --> 00:51:43.920 which you were reading, is refuting you. It is literally 1159 00:51:44.000 --> 00:51:46.360 saying to judge between them with the Khoran with what 1160 00:51:46.400 --> 00:51:47.840 all was revealed to you, and do not listen to 1161 00:51:47.880 --> 00:51:48.519 their desires. 1162 00:51:48.639 --> 00:51:49.960 And the next verse is the same thing. 1163 00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:52.320 And you read yourself for this is a supreme authority 1164 00:51:52.360 --> 00:51:55.119 over it, which means that whatever the horrandic say dictates 1165 00:51:55.400 --> 00:51:57.519 is a supreme authority over the Bible. That's exactly what 1166 00:51:57.519 --> 00:51:59.719 I've been saying all this time. And I'm laughing, how 1167 00:51:59.760 --> 00:52:02.519 could you read that verse? I think that's supporting you. Now, 1168 00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:07.000 this is just is completely ridiculous. So now the Koran 1169 00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:08.679 says it's also corrupted. 1170 00:52:08.719 --> 00:52:10.199 It's mentioned in multiple parts. 1171 00:52:10.239 --> 00:52:12.639 For example, the Koran says in chapter two, verse seventy five, 1172 00:52:12.920 --> 00:52:15.199 and mentioned in chapter two, verse seventeen, how did write 1173 00:52:15.199 --> 00:52:16.800 the scripture of their own hand? And the claim it 1174 00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:18.639 is from God? You said logic is harm? Nobody said 1175 00:52:18.679 --> 00:52:20.960 anything about logic is harm. Again, coming back to seventeen, 1176 00:52:23.239 --> 00:52:24.360 John seventeen. 1177 00:52:24.000 --> 00:52:25.400 Verse three. 1178 00:52:25.559 --> 00:52:28.360 What he explicitly says the only true Again, you're avoiding 1179 00:52:28.360 --> 00:52:30.239 the question. You're running away from the question. Also, we 1180 00:52:30.320 --> 00:52:33.760 haven't joined chapter twenty. Since he has a god, he says, 1181 00:52:33.760 --> 00:52:35.199 I'm going back to my God and your God. So 1182 00:52:35.199 --> 00:52:36.519 how can you be God? And you have a god? 1183 00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:38.000 He didn't say I have a person. I have a father. 1184 00:52:38.199 --> 00:52:39.880 He said Father and God. So he has a god 1185 00:52:39.880 --> 00:52:41.920 above him, and he believes the only true God is 1186 00:52:41.920 --> 00:52:43.840 the Father. And he doesn't have the knowledge of the hour. 1187 00:52:43.880 --> 00:52:45.480 And this is what we mean by him not being 1188 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:46.159 equal to the Father. 1189 00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:49.119 Okay, j ninety seconds and then after this or go Jay, 1190 00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:51.360 then lantern ninety second station. Now we could do closing 1191 00:52:51.360 --> 00:52:55.280 statements finishing with a Muslim lanstern because Jay DIYer started, 1192 00:52:55.320 --> 00:52:56.599 So let's go ninety seconds Jay. 1193 00:52:56.599 --> 00:52:56.800 Now. 1194 00:52:57.039 --> 00:52:59.320 Yeah. The argument in both of those passages is not 1195 00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:02.400 judge the revelation on the Quran. The argument is that 1196 00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:06.599 they that you can go again to eighty five. The 1197 00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:08.559 messenger believes in what has been revealed to him is 1198 00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:11.480 from his lords, so do all the believers, his angels 1199 00:53:11.519 --> 00:53:14.480 and his books, the books that are referenced in many 1200 00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:17.199 other passages as well. This includes six one point fifteen 1201 00:53:17.519 --> 00:53:21.519 eighteen twenty seven. These are the words of Allah previously 1202 00:53:21.559 --> 00:53:24.559 in the Torah and the Angel They cannot be corrupted 1203 00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:27.280 and changed. He believes they're corupted and changed. Why because 1204 00:53:27.440 --> 00:53:31.760 atheist scholars said so. And guess what, the same atheist 1205 00:53:31.840 --> 00:53:34.800 scholars don't believe in his books and his Quran. They 1206 00:53:34.840 --> 00:53:37.119 are all the time reject So it's a double standard. 1207 00:53:37.159 --> 00:53:39.239 They always do this. They have a double standard of 1208 00:53:39.280 --> 00:53:42.360 citing the atheist scholars who reject the Bible but also 1209 00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:45.760 reject the Quran. And your Kuran does say many times 1210 00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:48.559 over that I can go and check the previous revelation 1211 00:53:48.679 --> 00:53:50.960 to be consistent, and then when we find out that 1212 00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:54.920 it's not consistent, you say, oh, that's because it's corrupted. 1213 00:53:54.960 --> 00:53:57.079 So I'm supposed to look at a corrupted thing to 1214 00:53:57.199 --> 00:53:59.960 confirm in a non corrupted thing. That makes no sense. 1215 00:54:00.320 --> 00:54:02.679 That's why when I said, what's the epistemic criteria to 1216 00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:05.880 know the Koran is true? He said, the Koran that's 1217 00:54:05.960 --> 00:54:09.159 a circle. You explicitly affirmed the very thing I wanted 1218 00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:10.679 to affirm that it is a circle. 1219 00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:12.559 You said, no one wants to know that one's asking 1220 00:54:12.639 --> 00:54:13.000 what's true. 1221 00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:14.480 I'm asking how do we know it's true? What do 1222 00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:14.760 you mean? 1223 00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:15.960 No one's asking this question. 1224 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:18.280 I'm asking you this question for the third time. How 1225 00:54:18.280 --> 00:54:20.559 do we know it's true? And in regard to in 1226 00:54:20.599 --> 00:54:24.079 regard to John seventeen three, I said, monarchical trinitarianism, Jesus 1227 00:54:24.119 --> 00:54:26.039 does submit to the Father. That doesn't mean he has 1228 00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:27.719 a different nature than the Father, any more than a 1229 00:54:27.800 --> 00:54:29.280 son sub maody to a father means he has a 1230 00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:29.880 different nature. 1231 00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:35.280 Okay, for ninety seconds, amazing you saw he jumped from 1232 00:54:35.280 --> 00:54:36.920 another verse of book because he realized that. 1233 00:54:38.119 --> 00:54:39.599 There's also both. 1234 00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:44.320 I know he's interesting because he knows he's being and 1235 00:54:44.679 --> 00:54:46.400 the other verse that he also has nothing to do 1236 00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:47.599 with what you're saying is believe. 1237 00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:50.519 One of the bores is the books, to the books. 1238 00:54:50.239 --> 00:54:52.920 That are previous revelations that have been reviewsed, to previous prophets. 1239 00:54:52.920 --> 00:54:53.400 When we talk. 1240 00:54:53.320 --> 00:54:57.639 About that, and you can you can read it in 1241 00:54:57.679 --> 00:54:59.119 context and everyone can read that. 1242 00:54:59.199 --> 00:54:59.920 And you can read the talk. 1243 00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:01.039 You will see it's talking. 1244 00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:03.239 You can read it and you can see it's expecially 1245 00:55:03.280 --> 00:55:04.960 talking about the problems for like, you see how interrupting 1246 00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:06.880 he is because you know he's being destroyed. Now it's 1247 00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:09.159 if if the scholars since the Bible is yes, so 1248 00:55:09.199 --> 00:55:11.360 you agree, I'm happy we agree that the scholars and 1249 00:55:11.400 --> 00:55:14.000 academy agree that the Bible has been changed, corrupting, there's 1250 00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:17.800 no original, etcetera. Now these same eighties scholars and in academy, 1251 00:55:17.800 --> 00:55:19.360 you will see that they admit that I've made views 1252 00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:21.480 about this before. How the Kuran is preserved. You have 1253 00:55:21.519 --> 00:55:24.639 doctor and Jeric and units is not almostly articologue. 1254 00:55:24.639 --> 00:55:25.320 You have many people I. 1255 00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:27.280 Can mention now Jerr boy, I can mention many miniy 1256 00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:29.239 names of different people who do believe. Or if you 1257 00:55:29.280 --> 00:55:31.679 sort almost but academic that the Koran is preserved, there's 1258 00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:34.079 a whole book stritten on that. On the manuscripts, for example, 1259 00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:35.679 I'm Manu script and how they show the preservation of 1260 00:55:35.719 --> 00:55:38.239 the craw Koran. Never said the Bible is consistent. You're saying, 1261 00:55:38.280 --> 00:55:39.199 we've been talking about the. 1262 00:55:40.840 --> 00:55:41.559 How to prove a Karan. 1263 00:55:41.599 --> 00:55:43.599 We never talked about talking about the Bible is corrupt 1264 00:55:43.639 --> 00:55:45.480 has nothing to do with proving the cra Proving the 1265 00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:47.400 Kuran has a I have a video of my channel. 1266 00:55:47.400 --> 00:55:48.760 Everyone is welcome to watch. Call. 1267 00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:51.079 Competic evidence is for the truth for this or we 1268 00:55:51.079 --> 00:55:52.599 see the prophecies in the Koran. And how do you 1269 00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:53.960 to say all of these different things. I don't know 1270 00:55:53.960 --> 00:55:55.719 what you mean by proving. Maybe you're talking about different things. 1271 00:55:56.039 --> 00:55:59.400 Now we are talking about the corruption of the Bible. 1272 00:55:59.480 --> 00:56:01.719 The Bible has been changed. Why would been corrupted? Is 1273 00:56:01.719 --> 00:56:04.239 accepted in academia. I'm happy you through your whole religion 1274 00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:06.039 under the post all. I agree that the Son is 1275 00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:08.840 subordinate to the Father, and I want Christians to listen 1276 00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:10.920 to this. He's through everything other of us. He said, yes, 1277 00:56:10.920 --> 00:56:12.960 we agree, is abordinate to the Father. Excellent, that's what 1278 00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:15.440 we believe. It is Muslim Jesus is submitting to the Father. 1279 00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:17.840 That's what a Muslim is. A perfect Mohamed was submitting 1280 00:56:17.840 --> 00:56:19.079 to a lot and that he is Muslim. 1281 00:56:19.159 --> 00:56:23.360 Is ok to Jay. Let's do uh five minutes each, 1282 00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:25.519 five minutes for Jay and then five minutes for Muslims. 1283 00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:26.440 Will wrap it up here. 1284 00:56:26.719 --> 00:56:30.159 Yeah, six one fifteen. Again, neither of the passages that 1285 00:56:30.199 --> 00:56:33.079 he's talking about confirm what he's saying. Six one fifteen. 1286 00:56:33.119 --> 00:56:35.880 The word of the Lord is perfected in truth and justice. 1287 00:56:35.960 --> 00:56:40.119 None can change Allah's words. He just admitted that the 1288 00:56:40.239 --> 00:56:42.440 words of a law in the previous passages. You heard 1289 00:56:42.519 --> 00:56:45.639 him say in the last section there that no those verses, 1290 00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:48.159 those verses of the books, the message that's talking about 1291 00:56:48.159 --> 00:56:50.679 the previous revelations of the prophets, which he just said, 1292 00:56:50.719 --> 00:56:53.960 is corrupted when his own Koran says, the word of 1293 00:56:54.000 --> 00:56:57.039 a law right there cannot ever be corrupted. So he's 1294 00:56:57.079 --> 00:56:59.760 smarter than a law and the prophet according to his 1295 00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:04.199 attachment to unbelieving scholars. What I pointed out was his 1296 00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:06.880 double standard and the fact that he's going to appeal 1297 00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:08.599 to the same scholars. Oh, but there's a bunch of 1298 00:57:08.599 --> 00:57:10.960 other scholars that like the Quran. This is a fallacy 1299 00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:14.000 of authority. Appealing to scholars is a fallacy of authority. 1300 00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:16.440 If you think that proves a position, you argue that 1301 00:57:16.440 --> 00:57:18.920 there's a bunch of scholars that debate the early Church, 1302 00:57:19.000 --> 00:57:21.360 So what that has nothing to do with proving a position. 1303 00:57:21.599 --> 00:57:23.880 You could bring in scholars to back up a position, 1304 00:57:24.119 --> 00:57:26.760 but they don't prove anything. That's called the fallacy of 1305 00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:31.119 appeal to authority. So multiple times he's made countless fallacies. 1306 00:57:31.119 --> 00:57:33.400 He doesn't even know what they are. I point them out, 1307 00:57:33.440 --> 00:57:35.880 and he laughs and talks past it. He appealed to. 1308 00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:38.280 He said that I made many fallacies talking about this 1309 00:57:38.400 --> 00:57:40.960 problem of Allah's relationship to his attributes a one in 1310 00:57:41.039 --> 00:57:43.320 many which, by the way, he believes in an uncreated 1311 00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:44.559 foot and uncreated shin if. 1312 00:57:44.440 --> 00:57:45.079 He's a Salafi. 1313 00:57:45.280 --> 00:57:47.599 If he doesn't, then he has to metaphorically interpret those things. 1314 00:57:47.719 --> 00:57:50.679 Wait a minute, now, he's afforded the ability to metaphorically 1315 00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:53.840 interpretate interpret these texts, but he doesn't grant that to 1316 00:57:53.960 --> 00:57:56.440 us when we talk about these passages where Jesus clearly 1317 00:57:56.559 --> 00:57:59.679 uses rhetoric, clearly uses exaggeration. No, no, no, we're not allowed 1318 00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:01.760 to do that. And by the way, he did try 1319 00:58:01.800 --> 00:58:04.519 to say that I have to prove in John one 1320 00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:08.079 because there's no mention of three hypostass Hypostasis is mentioned 1321 00:58:08.079 --> 00:58:10.880 in Hebrews one, where it's identified that the son is 1322 00:58:11.119 --> 00:58:14.480 the eternal son of the Father and he's equally divine. 1323 00:58:14.519 --> 00:58:18.239 He constantly misunderstood what monarchical trinitarianism is because he doesn't 1324 00:58:18.280 --> 00:58:21.639 know what it is. Because it recognizes this distinction between 1325 00:58:21.639 --> 00:58:24.079 the father and the son in terms of monarchia, that 1326 00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:26.840 doesn't mean that there's a difference in essence. So his 1327 00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:30.280 whole argumentation, this entire time was assuming that distinction between 1328 00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:33.320 the persons necessarily and tells the distinction of or a 1329 00:58:33.360 --> 00:58:36.119 diminution of essence, which I said from the very opening 1330 00:58:36.199 --> 00:58:40.119 statement is not our position. So again, Allah's words are 1331 00:58:40.159 --> 00:58:44.559 not corruptible. He believes they've been corrupted. Allah is one, 1332 00:58:45.000 --> 00:58:47.400 But you heard him use analogies to the blackness of 1333 00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:51.559 his shirt to help me. But his own Kuran says 1334 00:58:51.559 --> 00:58:54.400 that Allah is nothing like things in creation. I'm pretty 1335 00:58:54.400 --> 00:58:57.000 sure your shirt is a creature. I'm pretty sure black 1336 00:58:57.159 --> 00:58:59.559 is a part or an attribute of a shirt. So 1337 00:58:59.599 --> 00:59:03.800 your own analogies refute you. And that's why I'm constantly 1338 00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:06.679 calling you out on a double standard. I'm not saying 1339 00:59:06.760 --> 00:59:09.599 you don't answer by stating your position, but like many 1340 00:59:09.599 --> 00:59:12.039 people who are no good at debate, you think answering 1341 00:59:12.159 --> 00:59:16.920 your position is refuting an argument, calling out a contradiction. 1342 00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:21.000 I'm arguing your position contradicts. I'm not asking you to 1343 00:59:21.119 --> 00:59:25.320 restate the position. I'm saying your position contradicts in many ways. 1344 00:59:25.920 --> 00:59:29.480 These things contradict. The word of Allah cannot be corrupted 1345 00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:32.280 or changed. You just said the prior revelations were corrupted 1346 00:59:32.280 --> 00:59:32.800 and changed. 1347 00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:38.639 Okay, I'll give a final statement to muscle lantern. He 1348 00:59:38.639 --> 00:59:40.559 went around three minutes. If you can keep it three 1349 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:41.679 to four, I think to be fair. 1350 00:59:42.119 --> 00:59:43.679 All good, no problem, All right. 1351 00:59:43.719 --> 00:59:46.079 So you mentioned chapter six of the Paran, and as 1352 00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:48.559 I said, already, there's two only two business. Lefron talks 1353 00:59:48.559 --> 00:59:50.960 about Doors of a Life chapter six and another chapter 1354 00:59:51.079 --> 00:59:52.199 the cap chapter eighteen. 1355 00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:52.360 Of the Pran. 1356 00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:54.599 One explicitly talks about the Kurran mentions the AA the 1357 00:59:54.679 --> 00:59:57.639 verses of a lot, specifically referring to the Koran, and 1358 00:59:57.679 --> 01:00:00.199 the other one, which he quoted in six, is talks 1359 01:00:00.440 --> 01:00:02.079 It talks about the judgment and the promise of all 1360 01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:02.559 How do you know? 1361 01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:04.519 Read the verse before a lot of the justices in. 1362 01:00:06.519 --> 01:00:07.920 Is there any judge that I will take other than 1363 01:00:07.920 --> 01:00:10.159 a lot talking about the judgment of a lot? And 1364 01:00:10.199 --> 01:00:14.599 then it says that that with and the promise of 1365 01:00:14.639 --> 01:00:16.320 your order the world, the judgment of your world has 1366 01:00:16.360 --> 01:00:18.559 been fulfilled. What he's not talking about, I'm talking about 1367 01:00:18.639 --> 01:00:20.920 versus definitely not talking about. 1368 01:00:23.039 --> 01:00:29.239 Because I've already says Lion says, don't cry, don't cry, 1369 01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:38.000 don't cry. Mute him by the way, he's you should 1370 01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:40.320 other than I let you speak, You should be. 1371 01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:43.480 Your time. 1372 01:00:45.159 --> 01:00:47.320 Can you please mute him because he's going to try. 1373 01:00:47.320 --> 01:00:50.719 And all right, okay, so again we'll say this is very, 1374 01:00:50.840 --> 01:00:53.320 very very simply the verse of the Koran. 1375 01:00:53.119 --> 01:00:53.920 I mentioned it. 1376 01:00:53.960 --> 01:00:56.880 I mentioned the verse and opening excisions, open excsures of 1377 01:00:56.880 --> 01:00:59.760 the scholars. Nobody have said in Islamic history that this 1378 01:00:59.800 --> 01:01:02.280 is fairy to the previous scriptures. And I give evidences 1379 01:01:02.280 --> 01:01:03.880 why this is not referring to the previous scriptures, that 1380 01:01:03.920 --> 01:01:05.159 they are corrupt, and I give evidences. 1381 01:01:05.199 --> 01:01:07.519 He give it evidence by himself. Take the verse in 1382 01:01:07.559 --> 01:01:08.079 chapter five. 1383 01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:10.559 Also, I give chapter to seventy five. 1384 01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:13.840 Which is clearly this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. 1385 01:01:13.960 --> 01:01:15.800 Now he said, oh, we do metaphors, win did they 1386 01:01:15.800 --> 01:01:17.960 do it before? Or if you're this, if you you 1387 01:01:18.000 --> 01:01:19.559 don't even know what I am, that's that's the problem. 1388 01:01:19.559 --> 01:01:20.239 You come to argue it. 1389 01:01:20.239 --> 01:01:22.039 But you don't stay where you are. You don't stay 1390 01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:22.480 where you are. 1391 01:01:23.719 --> 01:01:25.880 I only stay I'm a Muslim. I don't do other 1392 01:01:25.960 --> 01:01:26.599 than that. 1393 01:01:26.599 --> 01:01:30.679 That's deceptive. You're not You're not they do this as why. 1394 01:01:31.280 --> 01:01:33.960 He knows that's a deception. 1395 01:01:34.199 --> 01:01:37.639 It's not like he doesn't understand this. He doesn't understand that. 1396 01:01:38.199 --> 01:01:39.920 He's freaking out because you got what. 1397 01:01:39.960 --> 01:01:42.519 We call UK waffle in the UK, it's just someone 1398 01:01:42.519 --> 01:01:43.559 waffle's few words. 1399 01:01:44.000 --> 01:01:46.239 He thinks he's making big words. We can confuse the audience. 1400 01:01:46.320 --> 01:01:48.960 Will never answer any objection, and he's not allowed to. 1401 01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:52.880 You have to have a school. There's no no, no 1402 01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:57.400 school or another. So he's actually he's actually acting doesn't 1403 01:01:57.400 --> 01:01:58.320 have so. 1404 01:01:58.239 --> 01:01:59.880 There's no contradiction. So I was refuting him. 1405 01:02:00.039 --> 01:02:01.760 Came to the black and white shirt and all I 1406 01:02:01.760 --> 01:02:03.920 already told him this analogy to do with the attributes, 1407 01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:04.960 not to do with a loss, So do not. 1408 01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:05.840 I'm not trying to say. 1409 01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:06.320 The shirt is a lot. 1410 01:02:06.360 --> 01:02:11.679 It's an analogy to anything, and the analogy doesn't do anything. 1411 01:02:11.760 --> 01:02:16.000 That's look, Jay left defending this guy. He's supported. He 1412 01:02:16.079 --> 01:02:17.079 started to use some morefully. 1413 01:02:17.119 --> 01:02:19.519 All the essence is not as that it doesn't matter 1414 01:02:19.639 --> 01:02:22.920 what we can see scriptures, because before all of this. 1415 01:02:22.880 --> 01:02:24.159 Philosophy have been introduced. 1416 01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:28.400 Now it's phil is that clearly Jesus was supported, and 1417 01:02:28.440 --> 01:02:30.280 that's why we have the earliest groups like the United 1418 01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:34.840 and did not believe that traditarian believes we have the 1419 01:02:34.920 --> 01:02:35.440 Church fathers. 1420 01:02:35.440 --> 01:02:36.880 And I said, I can easily. 1421 01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:39.239 Give more quotes that they didn't agree on the concept 1422 01:02:39.239 --> 01:02:41.920 that Jay has in his mind. So simply Ja has 1423 01:02:41.960 --> 01:02:44.960 put Jesus under the bus from a position that he 1424 01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:47.480 believes in the trinity. And he clearly admitted he doesn't 1425 01:02:47.519 --> 01:02:49.079 know the hour. It is not the same. I think 1426 01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:50.960 it's just contradicting himself. It is he doesn't know the hour, 1427 01:02:51.000 --> 01:02:52.800 but in the same time, they're not equally this is 1428 01:02:52.840 --> 01:02:54.360 but at the same time they're the same. But he 1429 01:02:54.480 --> 01:02:56.679 just keeps contradicting himself and going in the same circle. 1430 01:02:56.840 --> 01:02:58.679 So is it the four He doesn't really know the 1431 01:02:58.679 --> 01:03:01.119 hour and they're supported into what he doesn't know his 1432 01:03:01.119 --> 01:03:01.840 own positions. 1433 01:03:01.880 --> 01:03:05.199 And with that I answered everything that nobody's bonding. 1434 01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:07.599 Except the Lord of Jesus, who he said he's coming 1435 01:03:07.639 --> 01:03:09.199 back to, say, going back to my God. We asked 1436 01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:11.400 you to worship that lord that Jesus came to, and 1437 01:03:11.400 --> 01:03:12.880 he said he's going to worship. He's going to go 1438 01:03:12.920 --> 01:03:14.320 back to. That is the Lord that we called you 1439 01:03:14.360 --> 01:03:16.559 to worship. The Lord of Jesus most is not profect. 1440 01:03:16.599 --> 01:03:18.960 Muhammad, and peace be upon all of the prophets and messengers. 1441 01:03:19.039 --> 01:03:22.000 And I'll conclude here with this cooking and because it's 1442 01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:25.960 burning in the kitchen now, all right, person. 1443 01:03:26.639 --> 01:03:29.280 Hold on, Jay, I want to get because he we 1444 01:03:29.800 --> 01:03:32.400 there was interruptions. I did said that it was going 1445 01:03:32.440 --> 01:03:34.199 to be the closing statements, but because it seems like 1446 01:03:34.199 --> 01:03:36.360 there's more, do you think we could do one more 1447 01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:37.280 back and forth two minutes? 1448 01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:39.199 Teaches, I don't care what both parties I No, I 1449 01:03:39.239 --> 01:03:41.000 think that's it's good to edit here. 1450 01:03:41.039 --> 01:03:41.880 I don't want to go more. 1451 01:03:42.400 --> 01:03:45.000 He doesn't want to go anymore. Right, he knows I'm 1452 01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:48.239 going to the same thing. No, I have a three 1453 01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:51.159 seventy eighth, says the book is not three seventy eight, 1454 01:03:51.239 --> 01:03:53.679 says the book is. So he doesn't want anymore because 1455 01:03:53.679 --> 01:03:54.119 he knows. 1456 01:03:54.000 --> 01:03:54.599 He got bodied. 1457 01:03:55.039 --> 01:03:57.000 We already had a debate that now you're losing christ 1458 01:03:57.480 --> 01:03:58.159 I appreciate it. 1459 01:03:58.159 --> 01:04:01.000 If we're bringing up more of your problems. I'm not crying. 1460 01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:05.239 You're the one snickering with that gig because you got cooked. 1461 01:04:05.719 --> 01:04:06.519 It's all rhetoric. 1462 01:04:08.480 --> 01:04:10.519 Jay. It was nice to meet you, and I appreciate 1463 01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:12.199 you coming on here. This is much more civil than 1464 01:04:12.199 --> 01:04:14.719 the earlier data. I hope to do this again. I 1465 01:04:14.719 --> 01:04:18.280 think this was anytime. 1466 01:04:22.119 --> 01:04:23.199 Yeah, what a joke, dude. 1467 01:04:23.239 --> 01:04:27.440 That guy was pitiful dude, And yeah, I I butted 1468 01:04:27.519 --> 01:04:29.559 him many times, because this whole thing was resting on 1469 01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:33.880 miss misinterpreting and misunderstanding and ignoring. And uh, I hope 1470 01:04:33.880 --> 01:04:39.159 everybody heard him completely collapse on the attributes and no 1471 01:04:39.280 --> 01:04:43.280 idea what monarchical trinitarianism is and what the position is. 1472 01:04:43.719 --> 01:04:46.000 The passages that we're talking about in the Koran. Do 1473 01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:49.239 not say that they're only talking about the Quran. This 1474 01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:51.960 is talking about the text of the Jews and the Christians. 1475 01:04:52.559 --> 01:04:54.559 And it's here saying that do not say the book 1476 01:04:54.599 --> 01:04:57.400 is corrupt. That is not corrupt. And on that last 1477 01:04:57.480 --> 01:04:59.679 passage he said, this is talking about all those judgments, 1478 01:04:59.760 --> 01:05:00.400 not a book. 1479 01:05:02.079 --> 01:05:02.880 It set a book. 1480 01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:09.000 Allah has revealed to you, the Torah and the Gospel 1481 01:05:09.039 --> 01:05:16.719 three three. Allaw's words cannot be corrupted anyway. I hope 1482 01:05:16.719 --> 01:05:18.719 everybody clips the heck of the heck out of that 1483 01:05:19.119 --> 01:05:24.000 and shows the parts where he especially, I felt like 1484 01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:28.599 on the attributes, like he was completely demolished. So everybody 1485 01:05:28.599 --> 01:05:31.119 should clip that. I hope that goes viral. We got 1486 01:05:31.119 --> 01:05:36.320 some super chats here, zalmonics five. I'm a lawyer and 1487 01:05:36.360 --> 01:05:38.840 a Christian. I've been practicing. You're the best debater I've 1488 01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:41.000 ever seen. This is even in litigation, thank you. I mean, 1489 01:05:41.039 --> 01:05:45.960 I think debate and you know law they overlap quite 1490 01:05:45.960 --> 01:05:47.559 a bit. In fact, we were watching a movie last 1491 01:05:47.599 --> 01:05:49.480 night that had a lot of courtroom stuff going on, 1492 01:05:49.559 --> 01:05:52.719 and Jamie was asking me we were talking about debate 1493 01:05:52.800 --> 01:05:58.360 related issues. Yeah, it is interesting. You could probably find 1494 01:05:58.360 --> 01:06:02.000 a lot of parallels with the way that I go 1495 01:06:02.119 --> 01:06:05.679 about and do debate in the way that lawyers do stuff. 1496 01:06:07.639 --> 01:06:09.599 I don't actually know a lot about, you know, law 1497 01:06:09.639 --> 01:06:12.000 and litigation and all that. But again, I do imagine 1498 01:06:12.000 --> 01:06:14.679 that there's a lot of overlap there. But you know, 1499 01:06:14.760 --> 01:06:22.320 really it's I guess the comparison would be like a 1500 01:06:22.400 --> 01:06:27.440 lawyer wants to probably trip somebody up in their statements, 1501 01:06:27.719 --> 01:06:31.760 and I'm kind of doing the same thing, except that 1502 01:06:31.800 --> 01:06:34.599 I'm also looking for not just will they trip up, 1503 01:06:34.639 --> 01:06:37.079 but are they violating the laws of logic? Right? So 1504 01:06:37.159 --> 01:06:39.760 that's a big part of it. You notice that guy 1505 01:06:40.400 --> 01:06:43.679 never he didn't even understand any of the fallacies, what 1506 01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:45.960 the fallacies are, why it's even wrong to make fallacies. 1507 01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:48.760 This is the death knell of anybody in a debate. 1508 01:06:49.639 --> 01:06:53.519 Fallacies might not be that relevant in a litigation setting 1509 01:06:53.599 --> 01:06:56.760 or in a courtroom, although they might be to some degree, 1510 01:06:56.880 --> 01:07:05.480 but that's an interesting question. I imagine they have some 1511 01:07:05.519 --> 01:07:09.440 overlap with a courtroom sitting. Jeremiah James five dollars. Muslim 1512 01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:13.880 lantern hasn't had any oil since Mohammed was with Aisha Oh. 1513 01:07:13.960 --> 01:07:16.000 Rachel Wilson one hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Rachel, 1514 01:07:16.000 --> 01:07:17.800 appreciate that. That's a big fat superche You don't have 1515 01:07:17.840 --> 01:07:19.880 to give me that, but that's really sweet of you 1516 01:07:19.880 --> 01:07:23.440 appreciate it. And I didn't want. I hope Andrew didn't 1517 01:07:23.559 --> 01:07:29.119 think that I was like streaming over his debate. I 1518 01:07:29.199 --> 01:07:31.920 actually forgot that he was doing that debate tonight. I 1519 01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:35.840 thought that was like several days in the future. So anyway, 1520 01:07:35.840 --> 01:07:37.920 I didn't mean to step over you know you guys 1521 01:07:37.920 --> 01:07:40.400 in terms of streaming time. But thank you for that, 1522 01:07:40.440 --> 01:07:42.679 But it sounds like it was kind of a it 1523 01:07:42.719 --> 01:07:44.880 didn't go as planned there. Well, Am annual five dollars. 1524 01:07:44.920 --> 01:07:47.320 Thank you for the extra time with patience. Yeah, I 1525 01:07:47.320 --> 01:07:49.559 mean again, I've already been debating for four hours straight. 1526 01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:52.639 So how long was this one? I don't even know, 1527 01:07:53.079 --> 01:08:01.159 another hour and a half. It looks like, yeah, what 1528 01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:04.320 did you guys think about this? How do you guys 1529 01:08:04.320 --> 01:08:07.360 think Muslim lantern did. I really feel like he was 1530 01:08:08.119 --> 01:08:11.800 collapsing on the attributes part, because everything he said about 1531 01:08:11.800 --> 01:08:19.560 the attributes was like, what do you mean that's embarrassing? Jay? 1532 01:08:19.640 --> 01:08:21.760 Church fathers under the bus? What are you talking about? 1533 01:08:22.479 --> 01:08:24.000 I did throw the church fathers on the bus. What 1534 01:08:24.039 --> 01:08:28.560 I said was he was oversimplifying it by saying, do 1535 01:08:28.640 --> 01:08:32.079 the church fathers teach the Trinity? And do they teach 1536 01:08:32.119 --> 01:08:36.479 it without debate? And I said, no, they teach that 1537 01:08:36.560 --> 01:08:39.399 the persons are distinct and that there's the divinity of Christ, 1538 01:08:39.840 --> 01:08:42.840 but they do debate things. And so that's why I 1539 01:08:42.920 --> 01:08:48.720 didn't agree to his oversimplified questions. So Muslims, you notice 1540 01:08:48.800 --> 01:08:51.359 Daniel did the exact same thing, didn't he. Daniel did 1541 01:08:51.399 --> 01:08:53.880 the exact same thing. Where Daniel said, I want the 1542 01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:57.520 simple answer. Look how simple Islam is? You guys have complex, 1543 01:08:57.560 --> 01:09:02.039 difficult doctrines. But the reality is Muslim also have complex doctrines. 1544 01:09:02.199 --> 01:09:04.560 And so he lied when he said, what is this akida? 1545 01:09:04.600 --> 01:09:04.880 I don't know. 1546 01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:07.560 He knows what akida is. It's the different schools. 1547 01:09:08.319 --> 01:09:10.520 He knows that there's different traditions and that they've killed 1548 01:09:10.560 --> 01:09:13.840 each other over these things. And that's why he tried 1549 01:09:13.880 --> 01:09:16.079 to deflect away from it, tell me the four principles 1550 01:09:16.119 --> 01:09:19.119 of the multa kalim like as that that has anything 1551 01:09:19.159 --> 01:09:21.399 to do with the argument I'm making about his position. 1552 01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:23.640 So that was all deflections. 1553 01:09:25.279 --> 01:09:25.640 Bryce. 1554 01:09:26.000 --> 01:09:28.039 But you notice what he did the same things as 1555 01:09:28.199 --> 01:09:32.960 Daniel by arguing that you set something up as an 1556 01:09:33.000 --> 01:09:42.720 overly simple It's called a complex fallacy of oversimplication. That's 1557 01:09:42.760 --> 01:09:45.920 what it's called. Right, So the Trinity is a complex doctrine, 1558 01:09:46.319 --> 01:09:48.680 and so you say something like, I give an example 1559 01:09:48.720 --> 01:09:51.640 of this, where's the verse that proves the doctrine of 1560 01:09:51.680 --> 01:09:54.840 the Trinity. There isn't one. You see, the Trinity can't 1561 01:09:54.840 --> 01:09:59.399 be proven from scripture. Well, the argument assumes that the 1562 01:09:59.439 --> 01:10:03.079 Trinity is a doctrine that would only come from a verse. 1563 01:10:03.279 --> 01:10:21.520 So it's a fallacy, right. Over simplification fallacy is the 1564 01:10:21.520 --> 01:10:24.439 fallacy of the single cause. Over simplifies a complex issue 1565 01:10:24.479 --> 01:10:27.279 to imply that a single cause produces the same effect. 1566 01:10:27.359 --> 01:10:29.199 It doesn't have to be causalor it can also be 1567 01:10:29.600 --> 01:10:33.279 a false either or right. Either the Church fathers taught 1568 01:10:32.960 --> 01:10:38.159 the Trinity or they didn't. Well, the Church fathers did 1569 01:10:38.199 --> 01:10:39.920 teach the doctrine of trinity, and there was a lot 1570 01:10:39.920 --> 01:10:42.239 of debate, but he was trying to make it like 1571 01:10:42.520 --> 01:10:46.119 if there's debate, they didn't teach it and it wasn't clear. Remember, 1572 01:10:46.199 --> 01:10:49.359 Daniel made this point, he said there was debate, and 1573 01:10:49.439 --> 01:10:51.359 if there's debate over it, it's not true. And then 1574 01:10:51.439 --> 01:10:54.800 Daniel turn around said, Muslims have debated this. Oh but 1575 01:10:54.840 --> 01:10:57.319 wait a minute, Daniel, you said that debate means that 1576 01:10:57.359 --> 01:10:59.399 it's not true if people are debating it. So you 1577 01:10:59.399 --> 01:11:02.680 see how silly these people are. John Z one hundred dollars, 1578 01:11:02.680 --> 01:11:04.439 Thank you so much, you destroyed that clown. God blurss, 1579 01:11:04.640 --> 01:11:08.399 thank you God bless you as well much appreciating those 1580 01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:14.439 fat super chats cards one dollar To confirm the Quran, 1581 01:11:14.479 --> 01:11:17.279 you go to the Koran. Yes, he said that, didn't he? 1582 01:11:17.279 --> 01:11:19.359 He said, No one here is asking about proof of 1583 01:11:19.359 --> 01:11:21.119 the Kuran. I'm asking about proof of the Koran. What 1584 01:11:21.159 --> 01:11:23.279 are you talking about? What do you mean nobody's asking 1585 01:11:23.279 --> 01:11:26.079 That's the very thing I asked you more than once. Yeah, 1586 01:11:26.119 --> 01:11:29.279 you go through the Koran to prove the Koran exactly exactly, 1587 01:11:29.920 --> 01:11:35.119 the logic is haram. Exactly, logic is haram. Jake Bernitt's 1588 01:11:35.199 --> 01:11:37.840 thirty three dollars I recently had a debate with a Muslim. 1589 01:11:38.079 --> 01:11:40.479 He made a similar point, saying that the son is 1590 01:11:40.520 --> 01:11:42.960 subordinate to the father, so they're not equal. So something 1591 01:11:42.960 --> 01:11:45.880 can be subordinate and equal and distinct in different ways. 1592 01:11:46.119 --> 01:11:48.800 And every analogy that I gave was to that effect. 1593 01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:52.119 A father and a son are distinct. The son is 1594 01:11:52.439 --> 01:11:57.319 subordinate to the father, but they have equal nature. The 1595 01:11:57.439 --> 01:12:00.279 king can invest the prince with all the power of 1596 01:12:00.319 --> 01:12:05.560 the king. They're distinct persons, but the king can grant 1597 01:12:05.680 --> 01:12:10.279 to the prince all the powers of the king. So 1598 01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:13.199 they have the same nature, human nature, and all the 1599 01:12:13.199 --> 01:12:16.439 same powers. Remember he said there is no verse word. 1600 01:12:16.479 --> 01:12:18.680 Does Jesus say the Father have given all the power 1601 01:12:18.680 --> 01:12:23.000 of till son? Yeah, there is, I read it John sixteen. 1602 01:12:23.359 --> 01:12:27.760 And then he's like, this doesn't say trinity, doesn't say hypostasis. Yeah, 1603 01:12:27.800 --> 01:12:33.399 hypostasis is using other passages. Dude, please go into more 1604 01:12:33.399 --> 01:12:35.439 depth about the training. So the people that are interested 1605 01:12:35.439 --> 01:12:39.159 in this, all of the monarchical trinitarian talks of doctor 1606 01:12:39.159 --> 01:12:53.960 Bo Branson cover this in great detail. So if you 1607 01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:57.359 go to Bo Branson dot com and you come over 1608 01:12:57.399 --> 01:13:01.039 here to meet I think it's media. Yeah, so Bobranson 1609 01:13:01.079 --> 01:13:05.199 dot com media appearances, and on this page is a 1610 01:13:05.319 --> 01:13:19.680 five part lecture series and then other interviews on monarchical trinitarianism. 1611 01:13:19.720 --> 01:13:21.840 You know, the funny thing is that the very first 1612 01:13:21.880 --> 01:13:26.359 thing that I said answers half of his objections. I 1613 01:13:26.640 --> 01:13:31.600 in the first five minutes mentioned monarchical trinitarianism, and then 1614 01:13:31.640 --> 01:13:34.920 he spent half of the dam ofn debate arguing against 1615 01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:36.399 texts that. 1616 01:13:36.359 --> 01:13:41.119 Proved monarchical trinitarianism. Have you ever brought up First John 1617 01:13:41.159 --> 01:13:45.720 five to seven to a Muslim? I don't know. Let's see, 1618 01:13:47.079 --> 01:13:49.439 I don't usually because they don't care. On most of 1619 01:13:49.439 --> 01:13:52.119 the time, they don't care about the text. Oh that's 1620 01:13:52.119 --> 01:13:55.399 the Joan comma. I mean they're going to just say, well, 1621 01:13:55.439 --> 01:13:58.680 that's not in all the old manuscripts. But I mean, 1622 01:13:58.720 --> 01:14:01.119 there's plenty of passages to teacher. We don't it's not 1623 01:14:01.119 --> 01:14:06.600 like we have to have the y comma. So it 1624 01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:08.560 looks like a lot of people are saying they think 1625 01:14:08.640 --> 01:14:13.439 that he's one of the worst debaters. He was definitely 1626 01:14:13.439 --> 01:14:19.159 pretty sneaky, slippery. Who's is he one of the worst? 1627 01:14:20.159 --> 01:14:20.479 I don't know. 1628 01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:22.640 I mean that's my that's my only experience of that dude. 1629 01:14:22.640 --> 01:14:26.079 I've I've never heard or seen anything about him, so 1630 01:14:26.159 --> 01:14:31.239 he's kind of sneaky hints sneak. Oh but alulah three 1631 01:14:31.279 --> 01:14:38.720 dollars crisis King. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, I know, the the 1632 01:14:38.880 --> 01:14:42.520 yawning comma is uh, I don't I mean we call 1633 01:14:42.600 --> 01:14:47.640 we covered that in the James Snap interview. Sneak o 1634 01:14:47.760 --> 01:14:51.960 mods will block Christians in the chat? Well, yeah, I mean, look, 1635 01:14:52.560 --> 01:14:56.800 Islam is not a position that relies on logic. It's 1636 01:14:56.840 --> 01:15:02.079 a position that relies on trickery, tomfoolery and sneakery. So 1637 01:15:02.119 --> 01:15:12.039 what do you expect so voting the poll? There's a poll, 1638 01:15:12.279 --> 01:15:14.399 So yeah, I mean he just basically went to all 1639 01:15:14.399 --> 01:15:17.159 the classic dollars script stuff. What's funny about all of that? 1640 01:15:17.319 --> 01:15:19.800 I think that really, all the dollars script stuff and 1641 01:15:19.840 --> 01:15:22.000 all of what they do, it's really just meant to 1642 01:15:22.119 --> 01:15:28.000 like try to capture the low tier, lowest common denominator audience, 1643 01:15:28.199 --> 01:15:31.199 to bring them in who are aren't interested in any 1644 01:15:31.319 --> 01:15:35.359 kind of like distinctions or any kind of nuance. And 1645 01:15:35.640 --> 01:15:38.239 it's just intended really to be a way to capture 1646 01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:41.760 low tier stuff. And then when they deal with people 1647 01:15:41.760 --> 01:15:54.079 who aren't low tier, it becomes very obvious. I think, oh, 1648 01:15:54.079 --> 01:15:59.479 that's the poll from their stream. Oh they have a stream. Well, 1649 01:15:59.520 --> 01:16:06.039 I'm sure all Muslims are in their stream. So so 1650 01:16:06.199 --> 01:16:09.840 here let's see here you Yeah, definitely if you want to, Yeah, 1651 01:16:09.960 --> 01:16:13.760 definitely go debate. I mean, oops, here we go, I 1652 01:16:13.800 --> 01:16:22.119 mean vote, excuse me, not debate? Who won? I think 1653 01:16:22.159 --> 01:16:26.880 I won, So I'm gonna say I won, But I 1654 01:16:26.920 --> 01:16:28.479 should do my own poll because I'm sure there's a 1655 01:16:28.479 --> 01:16:32.239 bunch of Muslims silent one dollar. It's crazy how Lantern 1656 01:16:32.399 --> 01:16:38.720 was using fallacies when he twists your words and just lies, 1657 01:16:38.920 --> 01:16:41.039 and the Muslims eat it up. They don't actually read 1658 01:16:41.079 --> 01:16:49.560 their sources. Correct toy five dollars. I recently listened to 1659 01:16:49.600 --> 01:16:51.720 all the Bo Branson lectures on that page because you 1660 01:16:51.760 --> 01:16:54.439 recommended it. It blew my mind. It's very interesting. Yeah, exactly. 1661 01:16:55.439 --> 01:17:07.359 Doctor Branson's monarchical trinitarian talks are essential, So definitely head 1662 01:17:07.359 --> 01:17:16.279 on over here and watch these. But that's okay. I 1663 01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:17.920 mean the people that want to be idiots and they 1664 01:17:17.920 --> 01:17:19.640 want to be you know, low tier, and they want 1665 01:17:19.640 --> 01:17:22.039 to believe stupid stuff. You're you're never going to change 1666 01:17:22.399 --> 01:17:30.319 people that are not open to what's true. Yeah, I'll 1667 01:17:30.319 --> 01:17:33.279 be sure, and vote so that these people don't just 1668 01:17:33.359 --> 01:17:36.199 promote their own Muslim polls, which is I'm sure what 1669 01:17:36.239 --> 01:17:44.680 they're gonna do, but straw pole here, and keep in mind, 1670 01:17:44.720 --> 01:17:46.720 I had no idea what's going on. I didn't even 1671 01:17:46.800 --> 01:17:48.520 I didn't even know what topic until I went in 1672 01:17:48.560 --> 01:17:53.640 the room. I've already been debating for four hours. So 1673 01:17:53.680 --> 01:17:58.840 there we go, Tamata, Oh no, excuse me, Italian King. 1674 01:17:58.880 --> 01:18:02.520 Ten dollars, Good job, Jay, crisis King, love and forgiveness 1675 01:18:02.800 --> 01:18:07.319 they're lacking nowadays. Yeah, I would agree with that, Hunter 1676 01:18:07.399 --> 01:18:10.000 Tyler three fifty five one dollars. Muslims reject Paul. Paul 1677 01:18:10.119 --> 01:18:13.960 is a transgressior in Galatians won it absolutely recxs Islam 1678 01:18:13.960 --> 01:18:18.159 and shows Mohammed as a false prophet. Yeah, doctor feaded again. 1679 01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:20.159 And Eys and I have made this point many times 1680 01:18:20.199 --> 01:18:26.840 that the finality of revelation, which is taught very clearly 1681 01:18:26.840 --> 01:18:28.880 even in the Old Testament, that when the Messiah comes 1682 01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:32.600 the Messianic era, well there was an end of divine revelation. Okay, 1683 01:18:32.920 --> 01:18:35.479 there's no new revelations after the death of the apostles. 1684 01:18:35.520 --> 01:18:38.520 That's it. So that right there cuts off all of 1685 01:18:38.560 --> 01:18:43.800 the future cults Mormons, Mohammedan's it doesn't matter, eric Ze 1686 01:18:43.800 --> 01:18:46.439 three dollars three thirty seven. You're very patient arguing with 1687 01:18:46.479 --> 01:18:48.399 a wall like that. Well, they always play this game 1688 01:18:48.399 --> 01:18:49.800 where they're like, oh, we want to have a conversation, 1689 01:18:49.880 --> 01:18:51.560 we want to have a conversation, and then they immediately 1690 01:18:51.600 --> 01:18:55.560 start with all the tricks, because theirs is a system 1691 01:18:55.560 --> 01:18:58.000 and a position that has to rely on a bunch 1692 01:18:58.000 --> 01:19:00.920 of tricks. So we don't really on tricks over here. 1693 01:19:01.039 --> 01:19:03.319 I will interrupt people, and I'll call people out when 1694 01:19:03.319 --> 01:19:06.000 they start lying and saying something I didn't say. Jake 1695 01:19:06.000 --> 01:19:08.079 Burnett's one dollar. What do you think the Muslims insist 1696 01:19:08.199 --> 01:19:10.880 on everything being simple because they're appealing to simple people. 1697 01:19:11.279 --> 01:19:14.920 The whole position is about making it simple as a 1698 01:19:14.920 --> 01:19:18.760 sales pitch for simple minded people. So the only people 1699 01:19:18.760 --> 01:19:21.680 who fall for this are people who are unfortunately not 1700 01:19:21.760 --> 01:19:23.439 very sophisticated. Now, I don't want to make it only 1701 01:19:23.479 --> 01:19:26.680 an intellectual thing, because not only intellectual, right, there's also 1702 01:19:26.720 --> 01:19:29.840 a spiritual delusion component of this too. But spiritual delusion 1703 01:19:29.920 --> 01:19:33.079 effects our intellect, you see, it can darken the intellect 1704 01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:37.399 so that we don't have discernment. They always say that 1705 01:19:37.479 --> 01:19:39.439 if you can explain the trinity to be simple, then 1706 01:19:39.439 --> 01:19:41.319 it's proven, and if not, it's relacious. Yeah, this is 1707 01:19:41.800 --> 01:19:49.800 an oversimplification fallacy. It's also an arbitrary expectation, like I 1708 01:19:49.840 --> 01:19:53.239 could make the same point, make Allah and his relationship 1709 01:19:53.319 --> 01:19:56.399 to his attribute simple, or else I won't believe it. 1710 01:19:56.479 --> 01:20:03.520 You see how silly that is? Well, this that's funny. 1711 01:20:03.640 --> 01:20:05.680 If i'm it's funny. Even if I'm two percent I 1712 01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:09.119 had on their pole, this is their Muslim pole, and 1713 01:20:09.239 --> 01:20:11.600 I'm two percent ahead. That's funny. So you can go debate, 1714 01:20:11.760 --> 01:20:14.000 Go bait u, debate, go vote. 1715 01:20:14.079 --> 01:20:14.359 Right there. 1716 01:20:15.159 --> 01:20:17.239 My mind is beginning to turn the mush because we're 1717 01:20:17.319 --> 01:20:22.720 like six hours into debate now. But I do appreciate 1718 01:20:23.640 --> 01:20:27.119 Sneako at least finally sort of coming around and and 1719 01:20:27.239 --> 01:20:34.880 addressing this because people have been vote uh calling out 1720 01:20:34.960 --> 01:20:42.640 sneak oh and asking him to come debate for a 1721 01:20:42.720 --> 01:20:44.520 long time. That's funny. 1722 01:20:46.680 --> 01:20:49.399 So they're gonna tell you quick, go vote, quick vote 1723 01:20:49.520 --> 01:20:50.680 quick one one one. 1724 01:21:00.439 --> 01:21:03.439 Yeah, I really, I really think they think that if 1725 01:21:03.479 --> 01:21:07.600 it's simple, it's got to be true. I mean, did 1726 01:21:07.680 --> 01:21:10.399 you notice too that he lied, like he said, we 1727 01:21:10.479 --> 01:21:12.359 don't know what is Akida? What is that he like, 1728 01:21:12.439 --> 01:21:15.479 he doesn't know what akda is. And by the way, 1729 01:21:15.760 --> 01:21:18.800 Muslims aren't allowed to ignore. 1730 01:21:19.880 --> 01:21:22.399 A school. You have to be in some school. 1731 01:21:23.319 --> 01:21:27.920 But he was being disingenuous, right and acting like, I 1732 01:21:28.000 --> 01:21:29.760 don't know what this word is? What are these what's 1733 01:21:29.880 --> 01:21:33.640 what are the schools? And acting like they don't disagree 1734 01:21:33.680 --> 01:21:37.800 amongst themselves. Come on, I hope everybody saw how ridiculous 1735 01:21:37.880 --> 01:21:44.960 that was. Right, Akda creed? Which creed? 1736 01:21:45.079 --> 01:21:47.119 Which school of Islamic theology? Are you a part of? 1737 01:21:47.199 --> 01:21:47.920 What is akida? 1738 01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:49.720 I don't know what is this world? I don't know 1739 01:21:49.880 --> 01:21:51.680 his word? What is this work made up? 1740 01:21:51.840 --> 01:21:52.039 Are you? 1741 01:21:52.279 --> 01:21:55.039 He's making up words? Doesn't know what it mean? 1742 01:21:57.760 --> 01:22:00.159 And what have we done but call out people like 1743 01:22:00.319 --> 01:22:02.920 Jake and the others that change their akida depending upon 1744 01:22:03.000 --> 01:22:05.760 the debate that they're in, which you're not allowed to do, 1745 01:22:07.000 --> 01:22:09.000 but you are allowed to do it in a religion 1746 01:22:09.039 --> 01:22:11.680 that's deceptive and allows you to lie and trick and 1747 01:22:11.800 --> 01:22:14.199 do all this, do this trickery. So I guess they 1748 01:22:14.239 --> 01:22:16.199 are allowed to do it even though technically they're not 1749 01:22:16.239 --> 01:22:16.720 allowed to do it. 1750 01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:20.279 What is this adida? I don't know what adidas? 1751 01:22:20.319 --> 01:22:21.680 Are these shoes? 1752 01:22:21.800 --> 01:22:24.680 What is the shoes. Look at a black shirt like 1753 01:22:24.840 --> 01:22:27.359 a lah has parts, but he doesn't have parts. It's 1754 01:22:27.359 --> 01:22:29.600 an analogy to help you with my shirt, but it's 1755 01:22:29.640 --> 01:22:31.439 done like a lot. You see how silly this was. 1756 01:22:32.319 --> 01:22:33.159 This was so bad. 1757 01:22:34.399 --> 01:22:39.000 But even their own poles, they're having a hard time. 1758 01:22:39.079 --> 01:22:42.920 Even even their own poles. Look at that ten. 1759 01:22:42.840 --> 01:22:50.439 Percent above in their own pole. Oh man, Muslim take loss, 1760 01:22:51.760 --> 01:23:00.199 Muslim take a big l Okay, I'm about totally exhausted. No, 1761 01:23:00.600 --> 01:23:04.800 so thank you guys for all of this. I'm definitely 1762 01:23:04.840 --> 01:23:07.079 gonna clip this one up because this one was funny. 1763 01:23:07.840 --> 01:23:11.159 All you guys, definitely clip clip clip because the clips 1764 01:23:11.560 --> 01:23:14.359 go out crazier and further than the actual long live shoots. 1765 01:23:14.359 --> 01:23:15.479 A lot of people are not going to watch this 1766 01:23:15.600 --> 01:23:19.880 six six hour live stream, but zillion people watch these clips. 1767 01:23:19.960 --> 01:23:23.960 Sam's channels of clips blew up bigger than his main 1768 01:23:24.119 --> 01:23:29.640 Shammounian channel. So guys, you guys, clip clip, clip, clip away, 1769 01:23:30.239 --> 01:23:34.800 especially clip him making all those dumb mistakes and saying 1770 01:23:34.840 --> 01:23:40.920 all that stupid stuff. Clip it to oblivion, Bros. Clip channels, 1771 01:23:41.000 --> 01:23:48.600 please clip gubb clip it all those other clippers clipper ships, 1772 01:23:48.600 --> 01:23:54.319 clip it. Texas guy. One great performance appreciate you. Hey, 1773 01:23:54.359 --> 01:23:56.159 thank you so much. You guys are being so generous. 1774 01:23:57.119 --> 01:24:00.279 I guess I guess it was worth it to come 1775 01:24:00.359 --> 01:24:06.119 to work tonight to debate for six freakin' hours and 1776 01:24:06.239 --> 01:24:09.760 get a nice paycheck. Thank you guys so much, appreciate it. 1777 01:24:10.199 --> 01:24:14.479 Much love to you guys. God bless everybody. Uh again, 1778 01:24:14.720 --> 01:24:19.640 Please guys, start your own clip channels to our bro 1779 01:24:19.800 --> 01:24:25.680 clip channels, jub all the other ones, Kyle guys, clip 1780 01:24:25.760 --> 01:24:31.880 it and be sure and head over to chalk dot com. 1781 01:24:32.039 --> 01:24:34.960 Use promo code J forty to get forty percent off 1782 01:24:35.399 --> 01:24:38.439 or J forty four life to get forty four percent 1783 01:24:38.520 --> 01:24:41.119 off that amazing chalk dot com. If you want to 1784 01:24:41.159 --> 01:24:43.439 get my books, you can head over to Jasonnoulsons dot 1785 01:24:43.479 --> 01:24:47.079 com in the shop and get all of my books 1786 01:24:47.119 --> 01:24:49.680 signed copies. You can also subscribe to my website or 1787 01:24:49.680 --> 01:24:54.159 subscribe to me on Rockfinn and uh everybody, have a 1788 01:24:54.199 --> 01:24:54.520 good night.