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Speaker 1: But I joined it. So apparently they had a rage

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quit or something. I don't know the details of what

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all went down. Oh crap, I'm supposed to haven't than

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its supposed to be with Richard Grove right now. I

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forgot about that. Uh So anyway, so I DM Sneako

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that I'm in his thing. Let's see. He says, I

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friended you. Uh friend requests.

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Speaker 2: Kahm.

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Speaker 3: Then I said, what about breakfast around here? Revenue is

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ship I don't think.

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Speaker 1: I run huh.

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Speaker 4: We both kind of like it.

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Speaker 5: Bet on air air and air in a room there there, okay, yeah,

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I added you.

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Speaker 1: The server set up where I don't see where they where.

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Speaker 6: The debate is waiting room uhh.

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Speaker 3: And I said, hood bye brain rest. I'm both kind

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of lad.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'm here, I said, yo, So what's up?

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I'm a waiting.

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Speaker 3: Yo yo.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's in the religion section. Let's see. I still

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can't talk. I'm gonna beate on rumble. I thought the

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debates in here, dude, h m hm, still making me wait.

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You may not talk for four minutes. M Trinidad James

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Gold all over my chain and go over my watch

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and nonet believe he'll just watch. I guess the ten

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minute rule is for bots or something, But I mean,

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how many bots are trying to join servers? I don't know.

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Maybe he's got a bunch of haters. I don't know.

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Shout out to Stuart, thank you for that super jet.

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Speaker 3: Be careful. Snico and his.

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Speaker 1: Friend pulled a fast one on Andrew when they change

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the agreements of the debate. Well, I don't. I haven't

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agreed to anything other than to come into this room,

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So I don't know what the topics are. I'm not

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debating this age of Ayisha stuff. That's not I'm a

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I debate the philosophy stuff. So we're going to debate

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theology philosophy. I'm not here to debate all this degenerate,

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pre pubescent stuff. That's not what I That's not what

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I do. Plenty of people can debate that topic. Still

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making me wait to talk in the chat. So I mean, yeah,

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I think I don't know who Muslim lantern is. So

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I have no idea what what's going on here. But

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number one, I'm not afraid of doing these debates, obviously,

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So Sneako's debate. Stop ducking. They're telling me I'm ducking.

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I literally just.

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Speaker 4: Yo, hello, yo, hey, can you hear me?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? What's up?

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Speaker 4: Nice?

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Speaker 1: Hey?

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Speaker 4: How you guys doing doing good?

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Speaker 7: Doing good? So this is Muhammad Ali and then we

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also have a fellow Christian, Jacosi here, a representative of

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the Love Spech community. So we just had I'll keep

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you up to just bring you up to speed. We

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just had a half debate kind of Andrew Wilson versus

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Muslim lantern. This Muhammad a live here, and we weren't

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able to agree with to the terms of the Asia

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concent but we do really want to hear about the Trinity.

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If we could do a Trinity debate, I don't know

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if you're if you're ready or if you want to

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do that right now, but me and Dracosa, because he's

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a Christian, I would be unbiased. We can moderate it

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right now. You versus the Muslim lantern.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I'm not opposed to debating Trinity. I have

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just debated for the last four hours, so I'm a

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little bit tired, but I'm not opposed to doing it.

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Speaker 7: Okay, we can keep it short. I want to keep it.

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How's forty five minutes. Let's we can start five Well,

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I mean you don't have an opening statement prepared.

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Speaker 1: I do everything extemporaneous. I would, I mean, I would,

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I can do an opening statement extemporaneous, doesn't matter. I mean,

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did you want to do timed or a conversation or

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what style debate?

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Speaker 2: So that's listen to now.

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Speaker 7: Ideally, Okay, so I'll do the same terms that we

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had for the last debate, but it went itself. So

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I think having an opening statement for both sides would

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be fair around five minutes cap. We'll cap in five

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minutes and then we can go free flowing back and forth.

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But if there's too many interruptions, then we'll have to

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do timing things, and then that's when the moderators will

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have to stuppen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good idea. I can do that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 8: So the thing is, like Andrew I was having a

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discussion with him. He was wanted to talk about the

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age of manager, of the age of consent right versus

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the Trinity. So I don't know if you want to

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mention something about it slam as well to be fair,

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because talken just about the Trinity is just a Christian thing.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, I mean usually Trinity versus how heat is

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what we debate.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you have that.

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Speaker 8: So if you want to debate that, that's fine. And

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you already debated that, so you should already have your

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notes ready, I believe, right, because your last debate was

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kind of I don't do.

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Speaker 1: Nutes, man, I just I just do everything eximper in

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this I.

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Speaker 2: No, no, I'm just making that point clear.

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Speaker 8: They've already had a debate on this topic just recently,

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so if you did have notes, you would have them prepared,

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so you can say that.

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Speaker 2: But something they've already done. Right, So we were having

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a discussion, me and Andrew.

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Speaker 8: We can do that if we allow each other to speak,

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finish the points and ask questions.

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Speaker 2: I think that can work with me and you.

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Speaker 8: If the moderators not the stage just becoming interrupting and

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stuff like that, and someone's trying to take over, then

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what we can do is just turn it into timing.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's be fair, all right. So, and I

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made this and I don't think you will.

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Speaker 8: But I made this point before in the previous discussion,

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is like, no insulting of the profit directly by mentioning,

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calling him names and stuff like that.

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Speaker 2: I don't think you will do that.

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Speaker 8: But I'm just highlighting that because that's I guess it's

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my faith. So I cannot be in the call if this,

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if this is happening, If that's fair, you can let

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me know.

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Speaker 2: If not, you can also tin me in a position.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, do you have a camera. I mean

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we're live on YouTube, so my camera as active for

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YouTube right now?

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Speaker 7: Oh okay, okay, you can activate it on Discord two.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one, I know.

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Speaker 7: Uh yeah. A lot of guys are used the stream

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yard and stuff. H all right, yeah, listen, all right,

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all right, okay, who would prefer to go first? As

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a matter, I.

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Speaker 8: Don't mind you if you would like to. I don't

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know you would like me to go first. We would

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like to go first.

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Speaker 2: I'm a very.

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Speaker 1: Let me find a piece I need a piece of paper.

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I always taking notes, so hold on, segain Okay.

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Speaker 7: They were complaining about the volume earlier, mohammed, your your

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your volume is a little low. I had you all

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the way up, but it's and then even at the

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Christians something, No, it's a little low.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you could turn it up, but don't.

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Speaker 8: I think it's the loudest I can get it right now.

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But I'm just also speaking. I'm not speaking loudly because

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it's too am you know, right, Yeah, I mentioned to

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you about the neighbors and stuff.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be waking them up or something.

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Speaker 1: All right, who's that?

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Speaker 7: Okay, this is a Trinity versus to Heat debate. Let's

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get an opening statement from I'll sell with Jay.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah, So, the doctrine in Trinity is a doctrine

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that is not derived from philosophy. It's not derived from

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Saint Paul primarily, it's not derived from the Council of Nicia.

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The Doctor the Trinity is taught in the Law and

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the Prophets. In fact, if you go back to my

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Daniel Hikikachu debate, in the first ten minutes, I hold

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up a whiteboard that shows all the passages from the

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Torah and then the prophets that we derived the Doctrine

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the Trinity from, mainly from Jewish Extejesus of the Old Testament.

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This might sound surprising because people think that the doctor

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in Trinity is something that's unique to Christianity, or that

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Jews don't believe in this nowadays, so therefore Jews could

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not have taught it back then. In fact, many Jewish

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scholars today. I reference many of those in that opening

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statement of the Daniel debate. I can refer to them now.

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This would be Benjamin Summer, Alan Siegel, Schaeffer, etc. Boyar,

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and all of those scholars admit that the early Church's

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view is not that distinct from the Judaism of the

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time of Christ in recognizing more than one person in

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the Trinity. Note, I am not saying that the Jews

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at that time were all Trinitarians. I'm not saying that

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it's okay. I'm not saying that Jews necessarily accept Trinitarianism.

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I'm saying that these scholars prove that in the time

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of Christ, there was not a generic Unitarianism that characterized

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what it is to be quote monotheists. They didn't see

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a contradiction or a problem between the idea of quote

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monotheism and the recognition of the Father as the archae

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cause and fount, the Angel of the Lord as his messenger,

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which we see through all throughout the Old Testament, who

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is called God, who is called Divine, who is called

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the Messenger of the Covenant, who is called Yahweh in

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Exodus three, Exodus twenty three throughout the Psalms, in the

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Mini Theophanes passages, and many times in the Prophets, Jesus predicted,

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especially in latter Isaiah, to be a divine Nosiah that

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would be worshiped. So a lot of these references to

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the Trinity are primarily grounded rooted in the Torah and

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the Prophets. Islam, However, when it argues against the Trinity,

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does so on the basis of it not being aware

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of or not being informed, typically on what the actual

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texts teach in terms of the Jewish texts that we

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as Christians also refer to. Also when it comes to

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the text of the Gospel and the texts of the

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New Testament, they're not aware of the fact that Jesus,

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throughout the Gospel John and every chapter refers to himself

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as both divine and or a member of the triad.

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John one talks about Jesus being the Logos. John one

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talks about him being eternally begotten monogyen aesteos, so the

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eternal beginning. All of that is already at the beginning

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of the Gospel John and again every chapter, whether it's

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John five through nine, where Jesus identifies himself as the

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one at Mount Sinai talking to Moses, the one that

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gave the law. Jesus firs to himself as the son

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of God many times over, which means that his God

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is not Allah, because Allah has no sons. So Jesus

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many many times over throughout the Gospel says he is

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the son of God and that he makes us by

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grace sons of God. This proves that there is not

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the same God of Muhammad and the same God of Jesus.

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Jesus is not referring to Allah as his father. Allah

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has no sons. So when we come to the time

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of the early church fathers, they unanimously teach the deedy

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of Christ, the triad, as well the deed to the

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Holy Spirit. This becomes codified by the time of Nicia.

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It's not invented at the time of Nicia. You can

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read the church fathers from Irenaeus to Ignacious to Clement.

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You can read Cyril, sip Schimi, Cyprian, you can read Athanasius,

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all these church fathers. Alexander writing prior to the time,

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and I see that teach the deed to Christ and

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what would become the doction or known as the Doctor

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with trinity. So the Trinity is not something foreign to

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the scriptures. It's rooted in the Torret's rooted in the Prophet's,

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root in the New Testament, root in the teaching of

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Christ himself. And I would add that when we compare

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it to what's in the Quran, the Koran makes many stakes.

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First of all, about what the Christians teach. They say

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that we take our monks as lords. We do not.

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They take They think that the Koran thinks that we

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take Mary as part of the Trinity, we do not.

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The Qoran also is itself confused in two areas that

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I always like to highlight, which is that it claims

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that prior revelation confirms it and backs it up and

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many times over, Like in a so five, it says

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that you can look to the previous revelation to confirm

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the new revelation, but the old revelation contradicts it. And

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when Muslims see the contradictions, they do the same move

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of Ajaws and the debate to say, well, we reject

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all the times that it contradicts, but we accept all

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the time that it is with our revelation. Well, that

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is a circle. That's arguing for the thing that's in question,

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we want to know, how does the prior revelation confirm

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the new revelation, which the Quran says it can do

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if the prior revelations are corrupt, and how a foolish

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it would be to look to a corrupt book to

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supposedly prove an incorrupt book. So it makes no sense

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on the face of it. I would also then argue

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that the doctrine of Tanzi that's derived from the passages

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that talk about all of being nothing like creation forty

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two and I think around one ten somewhere in there

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it says that Allah is absolutely nothing like creation. And

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yet Muslims many times over will utilize terminology, language and

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so forth to liken Allah to a created thing, to

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say that Allah is merciful, that he is just, he

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has all these things, Allah has a hand, has a shen,

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and so forth. Things that come up in the accepted

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hadeds well, all of those things are contradictory to the

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notion of taal Heed that God is a pure unity

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or pure This is why Muslims for centuries have debated

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amongst themselves whether the attributes are really distinct. And you

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have people like Jake Slafis and others who say, no, oh, yes,

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Allah has a foot, has a shin, and we don't

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know the modality, but he really has these things.

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Speaker 3: They're really attributes.

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Speaker 1: And yet we're said to be only a religion of

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perfect unity and perfect oneness. Yet he's many. Well, the

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same problem that you have with the attributes and the

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dependence relationship of the attributes on Allah's essence and amongst

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themselves is no different than the question that we have

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about the persons of the trinity. It's just simply that

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you say that we have a problem that you don't

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have to answer when you have the exact same problem

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in relationship to the attributes in Allah's essence and their

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dependent's relationship. And if you don't think there's a dependence relationship,

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then I will just simply say, do you believe that

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they are then asse or self existent? If they're self existent,

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then you have what ninety nine gods. So you have

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the same problem, but a double standard as to how

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you answer that. I'm not saying note that you believe

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that the attributes of persons. I know you don't believe that,

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But the same problem of the one and the many

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and the dependence status between the attributes and the essence

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is a problem that you cannot answer because within Islam

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there are countless multiple contradictions. How much time do I have?

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You're good?

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Speaker 2: I don't think I can give you a specific time.

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Speaker 4: Good.

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Speaker 1: I thought he said five minute opening or whatever.

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Speaker 9: That was good.

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Speaker 7: That was precise. I think that's fine. You want to

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respond with some antern.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 8: During my response, I want to ask you questions, if

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that's fine, right, I just want to ask The first

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question is what is.

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Speaker 2: The trinity in your belief? What is the trinity?

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Speaker 8: Just because we're talking about the trinity, so I think

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defining terms is appointed because you said you found it

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present in the old systems.

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Speaker 2: So why is the trinity?

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Speaker 1: So doctrine that God is first and foremost identified with

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the person of the Father. The Father is what we

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call the arkaeount, the source, the cause, the supreme beginning

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of the other two persons, and that's revealed to be

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the person of his eternally begotten son, who identify as

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the Lord Jesus Christ, and with his eternal Holy Spirit.

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So they are three in one. They share a common

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essence or nature in that they come from the Father,

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and they derive the same nature from the Father, as

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Jesus says in John five and six. But they're also

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really and truly distinct, which is why we see Jesus,

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for example, praying to the Father, asking things of the Father,

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and so forth. So the Bible, we believe, teaches both

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of those things that he is one and three. And

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it's not a problem for monotheism because actually the word

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monotheism is a really late term that you don't see

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until the sixteen hundreds.

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Speaker 8: So I'm sorry I didn't get a definition, but I'll

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give a definition and then you can confirm with me.

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Speaker 2: You said few things.

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Speaker 8: I understand them, but I wanted like a concise definition.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: You tell me whether this is like represented as the.

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Speaker 4: Trinity or not.

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Speaker 8: You have God, the Father, God, the Son, God, the

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Hot Spirit. Okay, Father is not the Son's Son, is

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not the Holy Spirit. Three persons in one being as

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as one being, but there's three persons that are within

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that one being, and.

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Speaker 2: The quote equal coote eternal, so.

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Speaker 8: They share they are equal in everything and they're eternal

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the same way. Is that a good representation of for

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the train, Well.

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Speaker 1: Some of that terminology is a little ambiguous, which is

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why I gave you a specific monarchical trinitarian definition. So

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the model that I gave you was a definition. It's

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called monarchical trinitarianism, and it's distinct from a lot of

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Western trinitarian theology that you might find in Romatholicism. So

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I was being very precise in the response that.

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Speaker 7: I gave no.

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Speaker 8: No, but do you agree You have not told me

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do you agree that if you say something is ambiguous?

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You can tell me that this specific part is I

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don't agree with it is ambiguous, and then you can

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clarify it. What I've said is that the definition of

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the trinity or not. I just want a concise definition.

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Is it that there are three persons in one being

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the quote equal quote external and they're not the same,

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like the Father's not the Sun sentits on the horstrait,

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but they won't God sure.

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Speaker 2: Very simple way. Do you agree with that? Okay?

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Speaker 8: So, because this is how I see people, anyone who've

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seen define the trinity define it that way.

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Speaker 2: So I just wanted the agreement to that. Okay.

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Speaker 8: So that's the trinity. Now you quote it, John one,

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and you tried to say that the scripture shows the trinity,

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et cetera. Quoting John one is not an evidence for

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the trinity. A trinity says three persons in one be

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person is separate from the being. John one doesn't say that, says,

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in the beginning was the word, the word was with God,

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and the word was with God, was God? The word

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became flush of mangol monas. If this is what you're

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referring to, that's not three persons in one being there.

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It does not talk about the fact that they are

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distinct persons.

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Speaker 1: And I didn't say that.

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Speaker 4: John.

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Speaker 2: I didn't my it's my it's my time.

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Speaker 1: You said you wanted conversation. You didn't say you want no, no, no,

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no no.

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Speaker 8: I said, I'll ask you a question with him my time.

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Because you've made many points, I have to respond to

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the well.

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Speaker 1: But I didn't say that the trinity is three persons

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in John one, I said.

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Speaker 2: That, Okay, you said many things that I disagreed with

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as well.

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Speaker 1: Okay, but what you're saying is a strong man. That

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wasn't what I said.

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Speaker 8: No, no, we'll we'll have it back and forth after

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I'm done. But I did allowed to speak for like

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five minutes and make so many points.

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Speaker 1: So the back and forth is only when you ask

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a question. I'm confused. You don't want a five minute open.

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Speaker 3: I thought you want a five open.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I have an opening statement.

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Speaker 8: I'm saying, within my opening statement, I'll ask you questions

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for clarification.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

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Speaker 8: So you responded to the question, and the question was

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what is the trinity? Because it's the debate of the topic,

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that's it. So I needed the clarification of that. But

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but other than that, I wanted to finish as well,

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responding to all the points that you made, right, and

395
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then we can get into back and forth on problem.

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I don't mind, but I got to respond because you

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made so many points, right.

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Speaker 7: Continue? Does that sound okay for both sides? Okay? Would

399
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,319
say that you know with your with your question there

400
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,839
why you were speaking and kind of gave the impression

401
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that you were looking for back and forth, right, because

402
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:33,440
if he's.

403
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Speaker 8: Going to clarify, you know, a question, he had to

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00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:38,079
fully clarify that.

405
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 7: You understand that he wasn't really done with the clarification,

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00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:41,920
is what I no.

407
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Speaker 8: No, no, we passed from the point of the trinity.

408
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He nodded his head this is a trinity, and then

409
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I went to something else and then he said I did.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so I'm supposed to know when yeah, okay.

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Speaker 8: No, no, just a question. I'll ask for example, is

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the trinity? You give response? And that's it, Like that's

413
00:21:56,559 --> 00:21:58,799
all I wanted. I didn't want like everything I all

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mentioned and then you will come up. It's not going

415
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to be an opening statement.

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Speaker 4: Right.

417
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Speaker 2: So you said that church fathers were unified on the

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idea of the trinity. That's that is false. I have

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got many examples.

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Speaker 1: There's just another strong man.

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Speaker 8: Okay, but I'm not going to be able to talk

422
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if you everything I say that.

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Speaker 3: You're so I can't rely can.

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Speaker 8: When we get can, when we get can, when we can,

425
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you write down what you believe. I'm strong manning you end,

426
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and then we can have an open discussion about that

427
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:31,200
one sometime with opening Okay, that fine, Okay, clarify you

428
00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:32,720
what you meant, what you said about the church brothers.

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Speaker 2: What did you say about the church bathers?

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Speaker 1: Right, So it's a fallacy of ambiguity to say that

431
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I mean that they don't have debate. I said that

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they're unified on teaching the three persons and that there

433
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is the duty of Christ. They do teach those things.

434
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They also have debates on these topics too.

435
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Speaker 2: They have a unified agreement on what the trinity is.

436
00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:53,319
Speaker 1: That's not what I said.

437
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 2: Okay, good, So we have that established that the church

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brothers don't.

439
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,759
Speaker 1: Agree, No, not agree with twist what I okay, I'm

440
00:23:01,759 --> 00:23:04,480
asking is there a unified teaching of unity in a law? No,

441
00:23:04,599 --> 00:23:06,559
so there's debate over it. You know that. So you're

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00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:08,359
trying to pin me into saying something I'm not saying.

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Speaker 2: That's not my questions.

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Speaker 1: You it's called a fallacy, Then it's a fallacy. Then

445
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:20,440
do you know what that is? Okay, that's what the

446
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,920
fallacy is, making a simple question for a complex response.

447
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: That's that's the problem always in questions like allow.

448
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,160
Speaker 1: That we know fallacy.

449
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Speaker 2: That's the problem I'm asking. I'm asking a simple question.

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Speaker 1: That's the fallacy position. That's the fallacy is that it

451
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requires a complex response.

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Speaker 2: Questions that fallacy, I asked, It.

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Speaker 1: Is a fallacy. You don't even know that this is

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a fallacy.

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Speaker 8: You finished the question and stop interrupting. I asked a

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simple question. You can say yes or no. You can

457
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say that's a fallacy. That is a fallacy, and can

458
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,759
make it, can make a judgment. I asked a simple question.

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Did the church fathers have an agreed These.

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Speaker 1: Trips might work on your audience, they don't work over here.

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Speaker 8: Okay, so you're just this is how Christians are always

462
00:23:59,519 --> 00:24:00,559
We try to have questions.

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00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 1: You you create a complex question fallacy and make it

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an either or. That's why you keep saying it's a

465
00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:09,400
simple question, not a simple question. It's a difficult question.

466
00:24:10,319 --> 00:24:12,799
Look you, is it a simple question about Allah and

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00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:13,400
his attributes?

468
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:14,319
Speaker 3: Is that a simple question?

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00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it's simple.

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Speaker 3: So there's not debates amongst the aqdas on that.

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Speaker 2: It is a simple question and I'm going to respond

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to it.

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Speaker 3: But it's not a simple question, you know.

474
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,400
Speaker 1: Okay, so what's the relationship volition?

475
00:24:27,519 --> 00:24:29,799
Speaker 8: It's not going to worry. Okay, you're interrupting, and this

476
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:30,720
is not how this question.

477
00:24:30,599 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: Is just because you're playing, You're you're erecting. False is

478
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:39,400
a false either or a fallacy? Is that a fallacy?

479
00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:42,599
Is a false either or fallacy?

480
00:24:43,559 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 8: If the mother answers are not going to enjoy it,

481
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,440
so you won't answer, no, I can speak of my

482
00:24:48,519 --> 00:24:51,240
opening statement about you asking me questions. It's my opening statement,

483
00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:51,720
not yours.

484
00:24:52,519 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 1: You opened your statement asking questions playing games. Dude, Come on, okay,

485
00:24:58,640 --> 00:24:59,079
how about this.

486
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 7: How can you ask the question? And because Jay is

487
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,240
saying that it's a complicated question, can you respond to it?

488
00:25:05,519 --> 00:25:07,400
And under a minute you can ask a question again

489
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,319
it's complicated. You can have a minute to respond to

490
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:09,680
the question.

491
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:10,119
Speaker 1: That's fair.

492
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:10,799
Speaker 2: No.

493
00:25:10,839 --> 00:25:12,759
Speaker 8: Look, look, I'm not going to ask him any questions

494
00:25:12,759 --> 00:25:14,519
because what he's trying to do is just waste time.

495
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,759
I was making a point. Then he said you misrepresented me.

496
00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:20,319
I said, okay, go ahead, represent yourself. He doesn't want

497
00:25:20,319 --> 00:25:21,000
to represent himself.

498
00:25:21,039 --> 00:25:24,079
Speaker 1: I'm saying, I already gave you. I gave you a

499
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,359
super precise I don't want to represent myself when I

500
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,400
gave you a super precise definition of the turnery.

501
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,599
Speaker 2: Come on, you didn't the question I didn't get.

502
00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 1: I gave you a five minute, super precise monarchical turn.

503
00:25:34,039 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 2: Here's my argument. Anyways. Okay, so yeah, I'm not going

504
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,480
to ask you questions.

505
00:25:37,599 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 8: I'm gonna I'm gonna say my opening statements like you did,

506
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,559
like I love to speak with the interruption.

507
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,680
Speaker 1: No, you don't get another five minutes. It's your fault

508
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,920
that you asked me questions. A stupid thing to ask

509
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,960
me questions in your opening statement. That was dumb of you.

510
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:55,519
Speaker 8: Okay, okay, I'm gonna continue with my opening statement.

511
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:56,759
Speaker 3: Minutes how many?

512
00:25:56,759 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: How many minutes?

513
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,799
Speaker 2: No, no, at the same time that you had I'm going.

514
00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 4: To be continue.

515
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 3: You've already gone for what four or five minutes. It's

516
00:26:02,759 --> 00:26:04,079
not you asked the question.

517
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: That's you.

518
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,839
Speaker 8: You've been talking to me. It's a waste of time.

519
00:26:06,839 --> 00:26:08,839
I'm not gonna waste my time allowing you.

520
00:26:08,839 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 1: You asked the question, and I'm.

521
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 2: Going to continue.

522
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 8: I'm going to continue with my proposition and you can.

523
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,359
You're not going to keep jumping by saying you're misrepresenting

524
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:16,039
me as a strong man.

525
00:26:16,039 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 2: You're going to.

526
00:26:19,039 --> 00:26:20,759
Speaker 8: Like I listened to you, and then we can have

527
00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:22,599
a discussion and you can have one to one back

528
00:26:22,599 --> 00:26:23,720
and forth and you can say what everyone.

529
00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:27,640
Speaker 7: We'll give you two minutes to finish your segment at

530
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:28,359
least three minutes.

531
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 2: Two minutes is nine off. First, he made multiple points.

532
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 8: Okay, okay, without interruption, I'm going to continue now with

533
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,200
whatever open statement this Okay, chist fathers were in complete

534
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,079
disagreement on their beliefs and what constitutes the Trinity. There's

535
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,200
many quotes that I have over here I can demonstrate that.

536
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,160
So to try and come and say there's kind of

537
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,119
a unified agreement or whatever it is, that's completely not true.

538
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,359
They had complete different beliefs from one another. I'm going

539
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,000
to read just quickly. Maybe some of these positions so ignacious.

540
00:26:57,039 --> 00:26:59,039
For example, how to put a position of subordinism. You

541
00:26:59,079 --> 00:27:04,480
can lead in his Letter to Magnesians, chapter thirteen, be

542
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,119
subject to the bishop and to one another, as Jesus

543
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,160
Christ to the Father.

544
00:27:09,559 --> 00:27:11,839
Speaker 2: So he believes that Jesus Christ was subject to the Father.

545
00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 8: You have scholars who say these positions, so it's not

546
00:27:15,319 --> 00:27:17,359
be taking a quotation off of context like some people

547
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:18,640
who try to come and pretend.

548
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,319
Speaker 2: For example, Virginia crowd.

549
00:27:21,039 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 8: Says in Ignesious and Christianity in Antioch in page one

550
00:27:23,799 --> 00:27:26,559
hundred and forty three, none of these passages. After she's

551
00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:30,880
mentioning some passages of the beliefs that Ignitius had adds

552
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:33,640
to the understanding of the trinity meant to Ignitius. We

553
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,279
are forced to conclude there was a very undefined belief. Indeed,

554
00:27:38,279 --> 00:27:41,240
so he didn't have a defined belief. William Shaddel says

555
00:27:41,279 --> 00:27:46,599
in Ignacious Commentary, page twenty, Ignacious casually uses traitorian formulas.

556
00:27:46,799 --> 00:27:48,640
Speaker 2: He does not. He makes little of them.

557
00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:51,279
Speaker 8: Theologically, so he does not make theological arguments and repulse

558
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,039
to the Trinity.

559
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 2: So this is not a specific person believe. I can

560
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,359
do the same thing with urinees. Now with the Trautulian,

561
00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:58,720
I don't have much tibe, but I can do that.

562
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:00,799
Speaker 8: He is welcome to USK, and I can give the

563
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,519
quotations of every single one of them. Some of them

564
00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:06,039
would believe that the son was created by the father.

565
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,759
Some of them would believe that the father is superior

566
00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:11,799
to the son. They're not co equal, as a doctor

567
00:28:11,839 --> 00:28:15,160
of the Trinity says, now, he says for ancest that

568
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,480
it confirms the previous scriptures. Yeah, well, you know what

569
00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:19,039
it means. But confirms the previous scriptures.

570
00:28:19,039 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: You can open up branch chapter five or seven forty

571
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:21,799
seven forty.

572
00:28:21,599 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 8: Eight where it says that it's a criterion over it,

573
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,319
which means whatever disagrees. That's not an e Jazz position,

574
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,119
as you tried to make it as a Muslim position.

575
00:28:28,279 --> 00:28:30,079
Speaker 2: And it is mentioned by scholars that the.

576
00:28:30,559 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 8: Scripture is changed, and if it is changed, they know

577
00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:35,319
ever would disagree with that, then we completely disagree with it.

578
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 2: And what does confirm mean?

579
00:28:36,599 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 8: It means it confirms that there was previous revelations that

580
00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:41,519
was revealed to the previous profits, and it confirms the

581
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:42,720
existence of previous profits.

582
00:28:42,759 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 2: That's what confirmed means.

583
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,279
Speaker 8: Doesn't mean that we say that everything in there is

584
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,559
completely Okay. You said proven a corrupted scripture, and not

585
00:28:50,599 --> 00:28:52,200
corrupted scripture is a corrupted scripture.

586
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 2: We don't try to prove Islam using the Bible. Let

587
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:55,799
we never try to do that.

588
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,599
Speaker 8: You said, then ze a doctrine that you've made so

589
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,799
many fallacies trying to equate an attribute to a part,

590
00:29:01,839 --> 00:29:03,079
which is something that we don't believe.

591
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: Where facy, So.

592
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:07,799
Speaker 7: You got one more minute?

593
00:29:08,519 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 8: Yeah, so we don't believe attributes are parts. We don't

594
00:29:11,799 --> 00:29:13,759
use that terminology when it comes to attributes.

595
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,759
Speaker 2: Of alara Yea. To say that just because God has.

596
00:29:15,599 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 8: Attributes that therefore God has many parts is ridiculous.

597
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: To say that.

598
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 8: We say that a lie is not like anyone, and

599
00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:22,960
we have an attribute, he has an attribue before he's

600
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:25,240
like us. No, we believe for instance, Our knowledge is

601
00:29:25,279 --> 00:29:27,400
limited is the dependent on all law.

602
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:28,759
Speaker 2: We don't know the future.

603
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,759
Speaker 8: We forget the knowledge of all lies ultimate. You knows

604
00:29:31,799 --> 00:29:34,720
the past, present of the future. He knows a hypothetical situation.

605
00:29:34,759 --> 00:29:36,359
So it's not the same. So do we say it's

606
00:29:36,359 --> 00:29:38,079
not like it, and it is not like it? Because

607
00:29:38,079 --> 00:29:40,440
God's knowledge is perfect, hour knowledge is limited. And that

608
00:29:40,599 --> 00:29:42,200
is the same with all of the attributes of God.

609
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,279
The way a lot of posesses them is perfect, the

610
00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:46,599
way you persist them or not. An attribute is something

611
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,160
that does not exist, an abstract exist within something, and

612
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,079
that something remains one. Nobody says that having attributes makes

613
00:29:52,119 --> 00:29:54,640
few more than one. I have love, compassion, hat, three year,

614
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,880
all of that. No one says, therefore a hundred or

615
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,519
two hundred because I have different attributes.

616
00:29:59,039 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 2: Ridiculous.

617
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, so it's just to put it in. They like

618
00:30:01,759 --> 00:30:03,599
to say, black cannot exist whether it self has to

619
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,039
exist in a shirt or an object. Attributes do not

620
00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:07,400
exist in vacuum.

621
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:09,839
Speaker 7: Okay, Jane, we'll give you three minutes to respond.

622
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was foolish, schoolishness, because now this is my time. Dude,

623
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,039
shut up the schoolishness because he admitted that the analogy

624
00:30:18,079 --> 00:30:20,640
that he gave to parts of a shirt, like attributes

625
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:21,799
like color, the color black.

626
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:22,759
Speaker 3: Those are parts.

627
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: And by the way, I didn't argue that you thought

628
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,799
all I had parts. I know that you don't think

629
00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:29,240
he does. My argument is that you contradict when you

630
00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:33,039
say that he has attributes that are dependent. Do you

631
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,839
believe that the attributes are self existent or they do

632
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,839
they depend upon all his essence and amongst themselves in

633
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:44,960
a dependence relationship. That's the question.

634
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 7: Sure, okay, but then the three minutes.

635
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: It's not forfeited. He asked me a question in his

636
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,160
opening statement. I can ask him a question, and.

637
00:30:55,119 --> 00:30:57,079
Speaker 7: Then we decided to go three minutes back and forth.

638
00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:01,079
I mean, if we're going to do questions, then we

639
00:31:01,119 --> 00:31:03,680
can't do the three minutes. Underrupt it again. So okay,

640
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,440
un lets you respond to this muscle answer question thirty

641
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:07,200
seconds to respond.

642
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,079
Speaker 8: Yeah, he mentioned something about the color being a part.

643
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:14,119
I mentioned many attributes like love and age and this,

644
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:15,839
and that's that's that is a strong.

645
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: Man, I said, are they dependent relationship?

646
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 8: Now to respond to the dependence or not dependence? We

647
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,039
don't use the terminology a lot us user, so therefore

648
00:31:24,079 --> 00:31:26,640
I don't use it. I believe it's an attribute, and

649
00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:29,599
an attribute exists within the creator.

650
00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: We don't use the term dependent depend.

651
00:31:31,839 --> 00:31:37,079
Speaker 1: Are the distinct and by the way, you do, do

652
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,200
you do use that terminology and debates because Jake used

653
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,200
that terminology in many of his debates. I'm not Jake,

654
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,240
I know, but what you're saying, you know, you guys

655
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:45,519
don't use that terminology he did.

656
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,599
Speaker 2: I'm talking about from an Islamic position.

657
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,119
Speaker 1: So are they dependent on himself? Okay? So in other words,

658
00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:54,519
you have a doublet you have a double standard. Notice

659
00:31:54,519 --> 00:31:56,319
that he has a double standard to where in his

660
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,680
position he's allowed to say, I don't have to answer

661
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:00,000
these questions. I don't know the relationship.

662
00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 3: That is what you said. You said, we don't have

663
00:32:03,039 --> 00:32:05,920
to answer that. That's what you said dependent.

664
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: I asked you what you mean.

665
00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:07,799
Speaker 3: Are they are saying?

666
00:32:08,279 --> 00:32:11,759
Speaker 1: Are they are saying you have to are they are said?

667
00:32:13,279 --> 00:32:16,480
Speaker 3: Are they self existent? Are they self existing? I'm sorry,

668
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:17,960
you don't know the terms. Are they self existent?

669
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 2: What do you mean by self existence?

670
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: Do they exist of themselves? You don't know that word.

671
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 2: They exist within the created? As I said to.

672
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 8: You, they're dependent will Allah, they exist will Allah, And

673
00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:32,039
there's nothing that exists separate from his attributes.

674
00:32:32,039 --> 00:32:33,839
Speaker 3: You're making are the attributes.

675
00:32:35,039 --> 00:32:38,599
Speaker 1: It's it's a classic debate within Youraquita you Raquita's debate

676
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:39,200
this and you know.

677
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 2: That I don't know what you don't.

678
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: Know what a school is. Now he's lying like he's

679
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,160
playing like he doesn't. This is what they do. They

680
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,279
pretend that they don't know. These are classic debates that

681
00:32:48,319 --> 00:32:50,599
they killed each other over the relationship of like like

682
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,480
the Mutazila, the Multa, the Salafi, you all do this

683
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:54,799
does all?

684
00:32:54,799 --> 00:32:56,079
Speaker 3: I have an uncreated foot.

685
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:01,039
Speaker 8: Okay, so you talked about what did they leave the

686
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,079
give me the four principles of five.

687
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 7: Principles and.

688
00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:08,279
Speaker 1: The neo platon the neol So here's what he does.

689
00:33:09,359 --> 00:33:12,240
So he's deflecting away because he won't answer these questions.

690
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,119
Speaker 3: Notice he won't answer their questions.

691
00:33:14,279 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: Argument. So, whether it's the people who believe in the

692
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,759
body parts of all law or whether it's the neo

693
00:33:18,839 --> 00:33:20,279
platon is, he won't answer.

694
00:33:22,039 --> 00:33:24,000
Speaker 3: They have the same position as the neo platonist.

695
00:33:24,039 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 7: She do.

696
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: That's what you said to present.

697
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:29,079
Speaker 1: You're not No, I don't have.

698
00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: To define your schools for you. You tell me what.

699
00:33:31,759 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: So you don't have it. It doesn't matter the four principles.

700
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,920
When you can't answer the question, if you can't notice,

701
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,200
he won't answer the question of Allah and the attributes

702
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,680
of relation because he doesn't know what the word self existed.

703
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,720
And I mean, you're incorrectly what's your position?

704
00:33:45,599 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 3: I don't care about them. What's your position? What's your position?

705
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:50,039
Speaker 2: My positions?

706
00:33:52,039 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 3: Which is what? So you're obfuscating.

707
00:33:54,799 --> 00:33:55,759
Speaker 2: You got to give me a question.

708
00:33:55,799 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 3: And then what is the relationship of Allah to his attributes?

709
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:00,400
Are they? Are they as or not?

710
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,799
Speaker 2: I responded, You're going to know you're doing it.

711
00:34:03,799 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: You're deflecting, and you're you're collapsing human The attribute is

712
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:07,920
not everyone knows this.

713
00:34:08,039 --> 00:34:08,559
Speaker 3: No they don't.

714
00:34:08,559 --> 00:34:10,639
Speaker 1: You're saying that you're you're saying your schools don't debate

715
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,639
this is you don't even know what.

716
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,079
Speaker 3: It doesn't matter what you do, It doesn't matter. Maybe

717
00:34:18,079 --> 00:34:20,320
I don't know anything. Maybe I don't know anything. That's

718
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,920
a fallacy. That doesn't prove your position. Okay, so you're

719
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:24,760
a fallacy machine.

720
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:29,159
Speaker 1: So you can't answer this basic question, can you? You

721
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,559
don't know the relationship of all to his attributes. For

722
00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:35,320
the fourth time, but you didn't answer.

723
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,599
Speaker 3: I told you, deflect.

724
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,199
Speaker 8: I told you the attributes of Allah are not something

725
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,880
that we say is a part or separated from a lot.

726
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 2: Believe that.

727
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:45,559
Speaker 1: How does that solve the question?

728
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 3: So are they?

729
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: Are?

730
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 3: They?

731
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,559
Speaker 2: Just like you cannot separate my love and hate from me?

732
00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 3: But those are parts of you that I thought all

733
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,039
that is nothing like I thought. He's nothing like creatures.

734
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:57,880
I thought he's nothing like creatures.

735
00:34:58,039 --> 00:34:59,599
Speaker 2: You say the sport, So it shows that.

736
00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:01,559
Speaker 1: You are saying you said the parts.

737
00:35:01,159 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 3: You can't understand that I'm putting you into.

738
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: A putzel bar like a kid.

739
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: Like a child.

740
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,320
Speaker 8: You're just exposing your ignorance attribute parts because that's your position.

741
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,559
Speaker 1: You contradicted yourself when you compared it to parts of

742
00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:16,039
your shirt.

743
00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 10: Dude, does your shirt have parts? Does your shirt have parts?

744
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:23,840
Now I go back to the dollarscript. Now I go

745
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,280
back to the dogars script. You you have none or

746
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:27,880
nine gods?

747
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,199
Speaker 2: Independent? Existence is independent?

748
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 1: Wells oh, so now you know the word I'll say.

749
00:35:33,159 --> 00:35:34,119
Speaker 3: Now you know what I'll say.

750
00:35:34,119 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 4: You mean?

751
00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: So this guy's a snake. Look, he knows what the

752
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,119
word I say means. He pretended like you didn't know earlier,

753
00:35:39,159 --> 00:35:42,039
because now he says, the trinity is that they're not independent.

754
00:35:42,679 --> 00:35:46,440
We don't believe in independent exists. They're not independent. That's

755
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:47,159
not our position.

756
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 2: I'm prostrating to him. That's not attribute.

757
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: You don't even you don't even know what I already refuted.

758
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:57,559
That's when I gave you monarchical trinitarianism. All he does,

759
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,679
that's monarchical trinitarianism.

760
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,679
Speaker 3: That's the position I gave you the outset.

761
00:36:01,679 --> 00:36:03,559
Speaker 2: Losing it and acting like a child. And I think

762
00:36:03,599 --> 00:36:04,639
you gotta know because.

763
00:36:04,519 --> 00:36:07,119
Speaker 1: You're saying this, because you literally didn't answer any of

764
00:36:07,119 --> 00:36:08,679
the questions I asked you about the attributes.

765
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 3: You said parts like shirts. Shirts have parts. Dude, that's

766
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:12,679
your analogy.

767
00:36:13,039 --> 00:36:15,079
Speaker 2: I said, black I think that's part of you.

768
00:36:15,079 --> 00:36:17,079
Speaker 3: You don't think shirt. You know, so blackness is not

769
00:36:17,119 --> 00:36:18,039
part of your shirt?

770
00:36:18,679 --> 00:36:19,639
Speaker 2: Showed me the existence of.

771
00:36:21,119 --> 00:36:23,480
Speaker 3: What does that have to do? It's a part. Say

772
00:36:23,519 --> 00:36:24,599
it's accidental. I don't care.

773
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 2: It's not attribute.

774
00:36:26,519 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: And also so it's an attribute of a shirt which

775
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:30,760
is made up of parts.

776
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, Well.

777
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,159
Speaker 1: So you use the analogy to a creature when all

778
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,159
is nothing like creatures, I'll give.

779
00:36:39,079 --> 00:36:39,519
Speaker 2: It an imergy.

780
00:36:39,559 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 8: So well, like you said, they can't understand. We can't

781
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:42,519
have attributes on a.

782
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,519
Speaker 1: Look, but All is nothing like creatures, so it doesn't.

783
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 2: Work his attributes. That does not what we mean.

784
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 8: No Muslims called in Isamic history, he said that there's

785
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:49,280
nothing like.

786
00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:50,760
Speaker 2: It means he doesn't have attributes.

787
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: No, it says that he's nothing like creatures.

788
00:36:54,559 --> 00:36:56,119
Speaker 3: So it's a contradiction.

789
00:36:57,119 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 2: The attributes of all lot makes me perfect.

790
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 8: We can have attributes, butted attribute the creator can have

791
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:01,920
Mexic prefect.

792
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,079
Speaker 1: I know you believe that, but you don't even understand

793
00:37:04,079 --> 00:37:07,840
the contradiction. I'm pointing out, how is there a comparison

794
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,199
of all to creatures when he's nothing like creatures.

795
00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 3: You compared him to your shirt and the parts of

796
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:12,920
your shirt?

797
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 8: What do you mean? What do you mean by nothing like?

798
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,599
What do you mean by that? Like honestly such a

799
00:37:19,679 --> 00:37:20,119
child thing?

800
00:37:20,199 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 2: What do you mean by it? There's nothing like love?

801
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:23,599
Speaker 1: What we mean by I mean when it says that

802
00:37:23,639 --> 00:37:26,679
in the in forty two it says Allah is nothing

803
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:27,400
like creatures.

804
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,159
Speaker 2: Okay, And I responded to you and you gave.

805
00:37:31,039 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 1: An analogy of a created shirt and it's parts.

806
00:37:34,199 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 8: No, No, I didn't do that, Yes, you did, as

807
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:37,599
I said.

808
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,199
Speaker 1: You just said that. Look, he says, no, I did

809
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,199
not know that. You said, the black on my shirt

810
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:43,440
is an attribute.

811
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 2: Colors? I said, colors don't exist at abstract.

812
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: What does that have to sell?

813
00:37:47,519 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 2: That has to exist, has to exist.

814
00:37:49,119 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 3: It's so, is your shirt that created analogy? Is it

815
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:53,480
a created analogy?

816
00:37:53,519 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: The shirt?

817
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 3: Is it a created analogy?

818
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 2: The color black is an attrib Is.

819
00:37:58,239 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 3: It an analogy?

820
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: Create the things analogous to law?

821
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 3: That's the point.

822
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:06,679
Speaker 1: No, you're just not answering, you're avoiding it. So you're

823
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,039
using creative things with parts that are composite as an

824
00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:12,239
analogy to Allah, who's nothing like creatures.

825
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 2: All right, let's do timing because as you can see, it's.

826
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: Just because he's running over me. Let's do the do

827
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,440
the timing because I can't do it.

828
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 2: Because other people.

829
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:26,519
Speaker 7: Well, we'll go, we'll resume from Jay's question, and then

830
00:38:26,519 --> 00:38:28,440
we'll do thirty seconds back and forth. He shian, I'm

831
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,000
going to be specific with the timers. So Jay, can

832
00:38:30,039 --> 00:38:30,719
you repeat your question?

833
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 1: And the other question was very explicitly, you made an

834
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:39,320
analogy to Allah and his attributes to a shirt with

835
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:44,079
parts and accidental things like colors. When the Quran says

836
00:38:44,119 --> 00:38:47,760
twice that Allah is nothing like creatures. So your analogy

837
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,480
doesn't work and it doesn't tell us anything. How do

838
00:38:49,519 --> 00:38:50,039
you resolve that?

839
00:38:51,119 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 7: Thirty seconds?

840
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 8: Okay, I never made that. He doesn't understand what he's

841
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,559
talking about. I made an analogy for him about the

842
00:38:57,559 --> 00:39:00,480
idea of an attribute, the attributes. Now the analogies to

843
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,280
do the attributes, not to do with all lies conflicting

844
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:02,519
the two.

845
00:39:02,559 --> 00:39:05,119
Speaker 2: It's not the idea is that attributes do not existing.

846
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,119
Come on, yeah, he can't do it right.

847
00:39:08,199 --> 00:39:10,159
Speaker 8: The attributes do not exist and abstract they have to

848
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,960
exist to them something. They're not saparable, they're not parts.

849
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:14,920
And that's how we look at that.

850
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 2: It's not like anything that's attributes are maximally perfect. They're

851
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:19,159
not like ours. Simple. It's very very simple.

852
00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 7: And people listening, he doesn't even unerstand the critique.

853
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,119
Speaker 2: Okay, do you want to do the question thing? So

854
00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:28,440
I should give.

855
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: It so once again?

856
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,639
Speaker 7: Okay, okay, so now let's let's let answer respond with

857
00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:35,280
the question. But we have to do uninterrupted or else

858
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:36,840
this is a this is waste of time. So I'll

859
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,320
let answer pose a question here. You could also respond

860
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:41,719
to where you wanted the last one, but the thirty

861
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:42,960
seconds back and forth, answer and.

862
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 8: Go ahead, all right, So he agreed that the trinity

863
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,119
means that the three persons are quote equal quotes. We

864
00:39:49,159 --> 00:39:51,960
look at Jesus and Mark thirteen thirty two, who explicitly

865
00:39:52,039 --> 00:39:54,760
mentions and says that he does not know the hour

866
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,239
while the Father knows the hour.

867
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 2: And I can bring a quote from a church father

868
00:39:57,800 --> 00:39:58,079
right now.

869
00:39:58,039 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 8: Always explaining that this priority of the father over the

870
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,000
son did not equal because one of them knows when

871
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,400
the hour is going to happen, the other doesn't know.

872
00:40:05,559 --> 00:40:07,400
GeSe is going to say that his human nature, it's

873
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,719
irrelevant because he had both natures, divine and human natures.

874
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: You cannot come and say does the human nature? So

875
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,519
how does Jesus not know something?

876
00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 8: And you clear that he's equal to the Father and

877
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,079
the Holy Spirit doesn't know as well, because the verse

878
00:40:18,079 --> 00:40:20,360
says only the Father knows Mark thirteen thirty two.

879
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:22,519
Speaker 7: Okay, do you have a question to follow up?

880
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 2: I know is he is supposed to answer right? Question? Answer?

881
00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 7: Did you?

882
00:40:28,079 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 4: Well?

883
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 7: Was the question?

884
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 2: The question is how.

885
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:35,320
Speaker 1: It's about Jesus? Yeah, so I agree, I agree, understands yeah,

886
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:36,960
and no I don't answer it the way he thought

887
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,400
I was going to answer. I answer it according to

888
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,840
the way Saint Basil does in letter two thirty five

889
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,840
and six, where he says that the limitation there is

890
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,320
a form of rhetoric or exaggeration, which Jesus does in

891
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:48,480
many places where he says, for example, that there's none

892
00:40:48,519 --> 00:40:51,119
good but the Father. Does that mean that no one

893
00:40:51,119 --> 00:40:53,519
else is good? No, it's rhetoric because in other places

894
00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:56,679
he also qualifies that and says that the Son also

895
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,000
is good. He says that people are good, the Holy

896
00:40:59,039 --> 00:41:00,800
Spirit is good, a good man will do this or that.

897
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:03,239
So no, when he says things like that, we have

898
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,800
a consistent exegetical pattern as to how we explain those passages,

899
00:41:08,119 --> 00:41:10,239
and we don't believe the Bible contradicts. So there are

900
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,880
passages that talk about the subordination, which, if he understood

901
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,280
what monarchical trinitarianism is, we recognize a subordination of the

902
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,079
son to the Father, but not according to essence. So

903
00:41:20,119 --> 00:41:23,280
he doesn't understand that that's different. That's a different theology

904
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,000
than he has. He thinks that distinction entails like differences

905
00:41:27,039 --> 00:41:29,840
in terms of ontology. We believe that just as a

906
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,280
son can show the same nature as his father. He

907
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,519
can be subject to the father. That doesn't doesn't mean

908
00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:36,679
the father has more human nature than a son. That's

909
00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:39,199
an analogy. Your position, by the way, doesn't make sense

910
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:41,480
in terms of analogies, because you said you made an

911
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:45,320
analogy to help me. But your very analogy doesn't work

912
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,280
because Allah's attributes and his existence are nothing like the

913
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:51,360
thing and things in the created order, So your analogy

914
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,719
doesn't work. That was the critique, and you just keep

915
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:55,719
saying that was a.

916
00:41:55,639 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 7: Bit over a minute on Langard. If you responded a minute, yeah.

917
00:41:58,679 --> 00:42:01,679
Speaker 8: Okay, I was pulling very, very simply. That's how Christians

918
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:03,719
try to away from this scripture. I just said, I

919
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,199
can present quotations that can present commentary if people explicitly

920
00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,559
saying that this is an issue, that one knows something

921
00:42:11,559 --> 00:42:12,760
well the other doesn't know something.

922
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 2: But oh, this is just sy meetric critric.

923
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:16,320
Speaker 8: Jesus says there's no one good but the Father. He

924
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,559
means ultimately good. Yes, there is no one perfect in

925
00:42:18,599 --> 00:42:19,719
his goodness except the Father.

926
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,199
Speaker 2: We agree there's no issues there.

927
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 8: So that verse that Jesus says doesn't have an issue,

928
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,320
we also agree with. He says he doesn't know that

929
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,400
he doesn't know. And you cannot be God and you

930
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:29,880
don't know something because God knows everything all the time,

931
00:42:30,039 --> 00:42:31,840
so you cannot run away from the subject in something.

932
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,679
And you said, by the way, the son is subject

933
00:42:33,679 --> 00:42:35,320
to the father, you believe the son is subject of exactly,

934
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:35,679
so it's.

935
00:42:35,559 --> 00:42:36,320
Speaker 2: Subject to the Father.

936
00:42:36,559 --> 00:42:38,800
Speaker 8: They're not quite equal in the sense that they are

937
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,360
equal in every position, in every way, every shing. And

938
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:43,199
that's why we say that what you call the Father

939
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:43,920
is a true God, but.

940
00:42:44,039 --> 00:42:46,079
Speaker 2: Jesus is someone who's subjected to him. There is not

941
00:42:46,119 --> 00:42:46,639
some belief.

942
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,639
Speaker 7: Okay, Jay figures find in a minute.

943
00:42:50,119 --> 00:42:52,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you're missing the point that at the beginning

944
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,079
I said that I wouldn't immediately commit to your understanding

945
00:42:55,079 --> 00:42:57,280
of the words coequal, because in some ways they are

946
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,719
equal in terms of power and in terms of nature,

947
00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:01,960
but that doesn't mean they're equal in every sense. So

948
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,000
that's why I was hesitant to agree to your tricks

949
00:43:05,039 --> 00:43:08,320
of terminology there with making it simple and making it easy.

950
00:43:08,679 --> 00:43:11,599
That's why I use monarchical trinitarianism, which again to use

951
00:43:11,639 --> 00:43:14,440
the analogy of a father or a king and his son.

952
00:43:14,639 --> 00:43:18,199
The king and the son the prince possessed the same natures.

953
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,800
The king is not more human than the son, and

954
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,719
yet the son still is subject to the Father. This

955
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,679
is orthodox trinitarianism. I'm not a Roman Catholic, so this

956
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,039
is our position, which I stated from the very outset

957
00:43:29,039 --> 00:43:30,639
in the first five minutes. But you just didn't know

958
00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:33,199
about that. But when you gave your analogy again of

959
00:43:33,199 --> 00:43:36,159
the attributes, you didn't answer the question. You avoided it,

960
00:43:36,159 --> 00:43:37,760
you ignored it, and you wanted to switch over into

961
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,960
the question of Jesus knowledge, Which is fine. I don't

962
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,440
have a problem of mentioning the fact that Jesus uses

963
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,320
rhetoric and exaggerated language all the time. He says if

964
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:47,880
your hand caused you to cut it off, He's not

965
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,480
saying literally cut your hand off. He's also not saying

966
00:43:50,519 --> 00:43:52,239
that no one is good but the Father.

967
00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 3: It's rhetoric.

968
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 1: So in the same way he can express that the

969
00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:00,159
Father is the sole source of all existence, goodness, knowledge, etc. U.

970
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,159
And yet at the same time the other passages also

971
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:06,119
confirm in John five and six that Jesus has all

972
00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:10,360
the same powers, knowledge, and activities as the Father. Everything

973
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,239
the Father has has been committed to the son. So

974
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,360
you selectively choose the passages, and I want to go

975
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,679
back to my question. Then, how do you know which

976
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,039
passages are the correct passages in the Bible and which

977
00:44:21,079 --> 00:44:25,280
ones are the corrupted ones? When Allah's work cannot be corrupted.

978
00:44:25,639 --> 00:44:30,400
And I'm told in uh five four, well over.

979
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,559
Speaker 7: A minute, I'll if you can response to that question.

980
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:33,840
I'll give you ninety seconds.

981
00:44:34,119 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: All right.

982
00:44:34,519 --> 00:44:36,679
Speaker 2: I'm very happy that. Look he shows that he changes

983
00:44:36,679 --> 00:44:39,000
his position. He agreed, and I said, is that the trinity?

984
00:44:39,039 --> 00:44:40,320
He shakes his head and he said, yes.

985
00:44:40,599 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 8: Now he knows that this is going to be problematic,

986
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:43,639
so he admits that they're not equal.

987
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 2: That I'm happy. That's it. That's what we will not.

988
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:49,519
Speaker 1: No, you're just you're just confused on the interrupting.

989
00:44:49,599 --> 00:44:51,639
Speaker 2: Don't interrupt. Shut up. Like you said to me, I'll

990
00:44:51,639 --> 00:44:52,639
say the same thing.

991
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,079
Speaker 8: They're not they're not equal. With your own statement, you

992
00:44:56,159 --> 00:44:58,480
said that they are not equally. Yes, they are not equal. Exactly,

993
00:44:58,599 --> 00:45:00,519
so we believe is Muslims, the father, who you call

994
00:45:00,559 --> 00:45:02,199
the father superior to what you call the son. You

995
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,480
give an analogy of king and son. Exactly, the king

996
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:06,280
came as the son is superior to the son.

997
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:07,280
Speaker 2: It's not equal to him.

998
00:45:07,519 --> 00:45:08,760
Speaker 3: So ill nature.

999
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:09,559
Speaker 1: You're lying.

1000
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 3: I said your nature.

1001
00:45:11,679 --> 00:45:16,519
Speaker 8: You're interrupting again. You're interrupting it. Say thank you, please

1002
00:45:16,559 --> 00:45:19,079
don't interrupt. When it comes to e retric and a

1003
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:20,800
retric they run away from.

1004
00:45:20,679 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: Anything which is key.

1005
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 8: For example, I'll bring him now, John seventeen three. When

1006
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:25,840
Jesus say is explicitly it is no true God. The

1007
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:27,559
only true God is the Father. He says, the only

1008
00:45:27,639 --> 00:45:29,639
true God addressing the Father is the only true God,

1009
00:45:30,039 --> 00:45:32,440
and he doesn't get, which means that any other deity

1010
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,079
is false. We have all of the Bible Jesus making

1011
00:45:35,199 --> 00:45:37,000
statements that can be a pei divine. I can say

1012
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,000
it's retaker as well. Anyone can say a trick. Okay,

1013
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,840
whatever verse you got to bring up is also the trick.

1014
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,119
And we play this game which versitt all life. We

1015
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,079
just call it a retric. The game with playing with

1016
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,079
these things that don't agree with you is you try

1017
00:45:48,079 --> 00:45:50,239
to escape the position and the fact that Jesus subordinate

1018
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:50,880
is submissive.

1019
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 2: So you have people arguing it in.

1020
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,039
Speaker 8: The counsel of m I say, and other councils because

1021
00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:56,960
they believe they was subordinated, didn't believe he was equal.

1022
00:45:57,119 --> 00:45:59,079
You have tons of harrisies due to that, because the

1023
00:45:59,119 --> 00:46:01,960
trinity makes no sense. Now you lie by the way,

1024
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,719
and you said, there's a verse in John. This is

1025
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:05,519
that they have the same power, they have the same knowledge,

1026
00:46:05,519 --> 00:46:07,679
You have the same wisdom. Whoever it is, I head

1027
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,519
and read that verse for us exactly what it says.

1028
00:46:10,639 --> 00:46:12,480
Now you said in the Paranah'm responding to what you said,

1029
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,519
the paran which verse which verses are product, to which

1030
00:46:15,599 --> 00:46:17,639
verses are not. Whoever agrees with the poran we believe

1031
00:46:17,679 --> 00:46:21,280
that is therefore accepted untrue. Whatever it disagrees, we reject.

1032
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,679
Whatever doesn't agree or disagree. We are agnostic about it.

1033
00:46:23,679 --> 00:46:25,320
That is the Islamic position given by the prophet.

1034
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,559
Speaker 2: And now you.

1035
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,119
Speaker 1: Ninety tects respond, Yeah, this guy's playing games because he

1036
00:46:32,199 --> 00:46:35,760
knows that nobody interprets any text as if every single

1037
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,599
phrase or idea that is expressed is in that single text.

1038
00:46:39,599 --> 00:46:42,000
The trinity is a doctrine that's derived from all the

1039
00:46:42,039 --> 00:46:44,280
texts of the scriptures, not from this or that verse.

1040
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,039
And so he's setting up a false criteria for me

1041
00:46:47,119 --> 00:46:50,960
to use the exact terminology in any single verse. Jesus

1042
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,159
says in John sixteen fifteen that everything that the Father

1043
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,840
has has been given to the Son. That means all

1044
00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,920
of his existence, all of his powers, all of his attributes.

1045
00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:03,239
Son also shares. I answered his question when he asked,

1046
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,480
what use equal? Yeah, co equal in nature. Hence the

1047
00:47:07,639 --> 00:47:10,719
example of the Father in the Son being distinct persons,

1048
00:47:11,039 --> 00:47:14,599
same in nature, equal in nature. Equal in nature means

1049
00:47:14,599 --> 00:47:17,119
that equal in the power that proceeds from that nature.

1050
00:47:17,159 --> 00:47:21,400
So yes, throughout the Gospel of John, every chapter, every book,

1051
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,159
excuse me, every chapter in the Book of John includes

1052
00:47:24,199 --> 00:47:26,480
a reference to the deed of Christ and or a

1053
00:47:26,559 --> 00:47:29,800
reference to the triad. No goofus. That doesn't mean the

1054
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,519
word trinity is in the book. It means the concept

1055
00:47:32,599 --> 00:47:34,280
the teaching of the Trinity is in the book, just

1056
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,480
like it's throughout the Old Testament, not the words. It

1057
00:47:36,519 --> 00:47:38,960
doesn't have to have the words. That's your criteria that

1058
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,480
you are made up for me. Now, I asked you

1059
00:47:41,519 --> 00:47:45,159
a specific question about you going to the text and

1060
00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:49,519
the prior revelation of what your criteria was. You ignored it,

1061
00:47:49,519 --> 00:47:51,760
you didn't answer it. I want to know what is

1062
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:55,239
your criteria for knowing when in the Old Testament it's

1063
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,280
true and when it's false. Is it not the Quran,

1064
00:47:57,360 --> 00:47:58,239
the very thing in question.

1065
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 7: It's for Lanzwern, all right.

1066
00:48:02,039 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 8: So clearly he said it is not from a part

1067
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:06,480
of the things, is derived from everything.

1068
00:48:06,519 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 2: It is not.

1069
00:48:07,119 --> 00:48:09,199
Speaker 8: He's essentially saying it's not clear, which is what we

1070
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,920
love to hear, is that the doctrine of the Trinity

1071
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,519
is not clear in the Bible thattually. That's why I said,

1072
00:48:14,559 --> 00:48:16,880
I can preserve any quotes from church Father in which

1073
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,920
they disagree with one another and what they believe the

1074
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:20,639
Son was and the Father was. You had all of

1075
00:48:20,679 --> 00:48:23,559
these counsels, You had all of these disagreements, theoretical people

1076
00:48:23,599 --> 00:48:26,440
who were killed because the idea of the Trinity is

1077
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:27,760
not there. I never asked him for the word. He

1078
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:29,840
like tried to strow man as I ask him, where

1079
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:30,480
is the word trinity?

1080
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: I never said that.

1081
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,159
Speaker 8: I said the concept. That's why I started by defining.

1082
00:48:33,199 --> 00:48:35,440
He didn't answer John seventeen three, because he knows it's

1083
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,440
a thorn in his side.

1084
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:38,519
Speaker 2: When I said, Jesus.

1085
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,800
Speaker 8: Said the only true God is the Father, he did

1086
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,920
not respond to that, or he completely ignored it. I

1087
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,079
responded to his question about the verses, which verses I

1088
00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:47,960
said to you, I ever agrees with Islam generally, Alan

1089
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,039
had it, we will accept that this statement is true.

1090
00:48:50,119 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 2: So when it says in.

1091
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,199
Speaker 8: John and the Shrowby sixty four that there's one God,

1092
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:54,079
we except that it's true.

1093
00:48:54,159 --> 00:48:54,599
Speaker 2: No problem.

1094
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,159
Speaker 8: Anything which would disagree we were rejected. Like if something

1095
00:48:57,199 --> 00:48:59,599
says Jesus died, we could say that it's also is corrupted.

1096
00:49:00,199 --> 00:49:03,480
Change now, lad By, Because scholars agree that the Bible

1097
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,280
has been corrupted, I don't need to do any a

1098
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,559
lot of research regarding that. Now, what you said the

1099
00:49:07,599 --> 00:49:10,679
God's words doesn't change. Change that verse you quote. It

1100
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,159
is talking about a lost promise, and you're quoting it

1101
00:49:13,599 --> 00:49:13,920
out of.

1102
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 2: Context.

1103
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:17,519
Speaker 8: Is like I said, I don't change my words. I

1104
00:49:17,599 --> 00:49:19,719
keep my words. We're talking about promises. We're not talking

1105
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,360
about the revelation of the previous structures, because the Kuran

1106
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,559
already explains that the revelation of the previous scriptures has

1107
00:49:25,599 --> 00:49:27,639
been changed. Now he said whatever the Father has been

1108
00:49:27,639 --> 00:49:29,719
given been given to me. That's clearly not the case,

1109
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:31,599
because Jesus did not know, and he said he didn't know,

1110
00:49:31,679 --> 00:49:33,119
and he said only the Father knows. And what he

1111
00:49:33,159 --> 00:49:35,039
means by that is not talking about attributes.

1112
00:49:36,039 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 7: Perfect Jay ninety seconds.

1113
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:40,159
Speaker 1: Yeah. I notice he did not answer the exact challenge

1114
00:49:40,159 --> 00:49:42,559
I gave him. I asked him what the epistemic criteria was,

1115
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,239
and he said that the Quran backs up the promises

1116
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,360
of prior revelation when it's worth So, in other words,

1117
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,760
the Quran proves the Quran by citing the Quran passages

1118
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:54,480
in the Old Testament. And yet we read in the

1119
00:49:54,559 --> 00:49:57,639
Quran that it actually says that you can go to

1120
00:49:57,679 --> 00:50:00,480
the prior revelation to see that the new rebelation is

1121
00:50:00,519 --> 00:50:03,199
consistent with it. We have revealed to you a prophet,

1122
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:07,119
the Book of truth, confirmation in the previous scriptures, and

1123
00:50:07,199 --> 00:50:10,440
a supreme authority upon them. So you judge between them

1124
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,760
what Allah has revealed. And now he's admitting what was

1125
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,119
his source. Many scholars say the Bible's corrupted. Oh really,

1126
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:22,519
so many scholars who are atheist unbelieving. Is what you

1127
00:50:22,639 --> 00:50:25,199
go to, not to your prophet Muhammad, who said that

1128
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,960
you can go to the prior Jewish Torah scriptures and

1129
00:50:28,039 --> 00:50:32,760
Christian scriptures. Those scriptures confirm supposedly what's in the Qoran.

1130
00:50:33,159 --> 00:50:36,039
You just said, no, they're all corrupt. So Allah and

1131
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,360
Muhammad are directing me to go to a corrupt book

1132
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,559
to prove your book. You don't see how silly that is.

1133
00:50:41,559 --> 00:50:43,559
And then when I ask you for a standard, you said,

1134
00:50:43,559 --> 00:50:45,800
the standard is the Koran. But the thing in question

1135
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:48,960
is the Koran. So you're in a circ gole, a

1136
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,000
circ goal. And it's a fallacy to appeal to authorities

1137
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:53,320
to say we all know the boby, let's come up.

1138
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,320
That that's a fallacy. I know you guys don't know

1139
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,639
what fallacies are the Haram in Islam, logical fallacies, right,

1140
00:51:00,639 --> 00:51:01,559
logic is haram?

1141
00:51:01,639 --> 00:51:03,559
Speaker 3: So uh, what's the standard again?

1142
00:51:06,119 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 7: Okay? Ninety seconds for a muscle lantern?

1143
00:51:08,639 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: And he said, I think givemcretia. I clearly did.

1144
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,039
Speaker 8: I said, to agree with the crad had it it is,

1145
00:51:13,079 --> 00:51:14,880
we accepted, wheree to reject it.

1146
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:18,159
Speaker 2: He said, proves nobody here is talking about proving the Kran.

1147
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:22,440
Speaker 8: Nobody's also talking about the Koran proving the Bible.

1148
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 2: You just misunderstanding things here, and you're just completing terms

1149
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:26,800
and you're just going around in circle.

1150
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,400
Speaker 8: Nobody's talking about anything proving anything. I already explained to

1151
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:31,280
you what the word confirmed there means. You clearly don't

1152
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,559
understand what you're saying. There's nothing there that says that

1153
00:51:33,679 --> 00:51:35,719
is proving it the verst you that is refreating you

1154
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:36,480
mentioned refuty.

1155
00:51:36,519 --> 00:51:38,360
Speaker 2: I was laughing, how could you read this verse? I

1156
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:39,360
think is supporting you.

1157
00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:41,679
Speaker 8: First of all, the chapter five of the krevers forty eight,

1158
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:43,920
which you were reading, is refuting you. It is literally

1159
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,360
saying to judge between them with the Khoran with what

1160
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:47,840
all was revealed to you, and do not listen to

1161
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:48,519
their desires.

1162
00:51:48,639 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 2: And the next verse is the same thing.

1163
00:51:50,159 --> 00:51:52,320
Speaker 8: And you read yourself for this is a supreme authority

1164
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,119
over it, which means that whatever the horrandic say dictates

1165
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:57,519
is a supreme authority over the Bible. That's exactly what

1166
00:51:57,519 --> 00:51:59,719
I've been saying all this time. And I'm laughing, how

1167
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,519
could you read that verse? I think that's supporting you. Now,

1168
00:52:02,679 --> 00:52:07,000
this is just is completely ridiculous. So now the Koran

1169
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:08,679
says it's also corrupted.

1170
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:10,199
Speaker 2: It's mentioned in multiple parts.

1171
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,639
Speaker 8: For example, the Koran says in chapter two, verse seventy five,

1172
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,199
and mentioned in chapter two, verse seventeen, how did write

1173
00:52:15,199 --> 00:52:16,800
the scripture of their own hand? And the claim it

1174
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,639
is from God? You said logic is harm? Nobody said

1175
00:52:18,679 --> 00:52:20,960
anything about logic is harm. Again, coming back to seventeen,

1176
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:24,360
John seventeen.

1177
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:25,400
Speaker 2: Verse three.

1178
00:52:25,559 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 8: What he explicitly says the only true Again, you're avoiding

1179
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,239
the question. You're running away from the question. Also, we

1180
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:33,760
haven't joined chapter twenty. Since he has a god, he says,

1181
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:35,199
I'm going back to my God and your God. So

1182
00:52:35,199 --> 00:52:36,519
how can you be God? And you have a god?

1183
00:52:36,519 --> 00:52:38,000
He didn't say I have a person. I have a father.

1184
00:52:38,199 --> 00:52:39,880
He said Father and God. So he has a god

1185
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:41,920
above him, and he believes the only true God is

1186
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:43,840
the Father. And he doesn't have the knowledge of the hour.

1187
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:45,480
And this is what we mean by him not being

1188
00:52:45,480 --> 00:52:46,159
equal to the Father.

1189
00:52:46,559 --> 00:52:49,119
Speaker 7: Okay, j ninety seconds and then after this or go Jay,

1190
00:52:49,119 --> 00:52:51,360
then lantern ninety second station. Now we could do closing

1191
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,280
statements finishing with a Muslim lanstern because Jay DIYer started,

1192
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:56,599
So let's go ninety seconds Jay.

1193
00:52:56,599 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 2: Now.

1194
00:52:57,039 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. The argument in both of those passages is not

1195
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,400
judge the revelation on the Quran. The argument is that

1196
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,599
they that you can go again to eighty five. The

1197
00:53:06,639 --> 00:53:08,559
messenger believes in what has been revealed to him is

1198
00:53:08,559 --> 00:53:11,480
from his lords, so do all the believers, his angels

1199
00:53:11,519 --> 00:53:14,480
and his books, the books that are referenced in many

1200
00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:17,199
other passages as well. This includes six one point fifteen

1201
00:53:17,519 --> 00:53:21,519
eighteen twenty seven. These are the words of Allah previously

1202
00:53:21,559 --> 00:53:24,559
in the Torah and the Angel They cannot be corrupted

1203
00:53:24,599 --> 00:53:27,280
and changed. He believes they're corupted and changed. Why because

1204
00:53:27,440 --> 00:53:31,760
atheist scholars said so. And guess what, the same atheist

1205
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,800
scholars don't believe in his books and his Quran. They

1206
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:37,119
are all the time reject So it's a double standard.

1207
00:53:37,159 --> 00:53:39,239
They always do this. They have a double standard of

1208
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,360
citing the atheist scholars who reject the Bible but also

1209
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,760
reject the Quran. And your Kuran does say many times

1210
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,559
over that I can go and check the previous revelation

1211
00:53:48,679 --> 00:53:50,960
to be consistent, and then when we find out that

1212
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,920
it's not consistent, you say, oh, that's because it's corrupted.

1213
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,079
So I'm supposed to look at a corrupted thing to

1214
00:53:57,199 --> 00:53:59,960
confirm in a non corrupted thing. That makes no sense.

1215
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:02,679
That's why when I said, what's the epistemic criteria to

1216
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,880
know the Koran is true? He said, the Koran that's

1217
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,159
a circle. You explicitly affirmed the very thing I wanted

1218
00:54:09,199 --> 00:54:10,679
to affirm that it is a circle.

1219
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:12,559
Speaker 3: You said, no one wants to know that one's asking

1220
00:54:12,639 --> 00:54:13,000
what's true.

1221
00:54:13,039 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: I'm asking how do we know it's true? What do

1222
00:54:14,519 --> 00:54:14,760
you mean?

1223
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 3: No one's asking this question.

1224
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm asking you this question for the third time. How

1225
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:20,559
do we know it's true? And in regard to in

1226
00:54:20,599 --> 00:54:24,079
regard to John seventeen three, I said, monarchical trinitarianism, Jesus

1227
00:54:24,119 --> 00:54:26,039
does submit to the Father. That doesn't mean he has

1228
00:54:26,039 --> 00:54:27,719
a different nature than the Father, any more than a

1229
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:29,280
son sub maody to a father means he has a

1230
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:29,880
different nature.

1231
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,280
Speaker 8: Okay, for ninety seconds, amazing you saw he jumped from

1232
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:36,920
another verse of book because he realized that.

1233
00:54:38,119 --> 00:54:39,599
Speaker 1: There's also both.

1234
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 8: I know he's interesting because he knows he's being and

1235
00:54:44,679 --> 00:54:46,400
the other verse that he also has nothing to do

1236
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:47,599
with what you're saying is believe.

1237
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,519
Speaker 2: One of the bores is the books, to the books.

1238
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 8: That are previous revelations that have been reviewsed, to previous prophets.

1239
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 2: When we talk.

1240
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,639
Speaker 8: About that, and you can you can read it in

1241
00:54:57,679 --> 00:54:59,119
context and everyone can read that.

1242
00:54:59,199 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: And you can read the talk.

1243
00:55:00,039 --> 00:55:01,039
Speaker 2: You will see it's talking.

1244
00:55:01,559 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 8: You can read it and you can see it's expecially

1245
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:04,960
talking about the problems for like, you see how interrupting

1246
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:06,880
he is because you know he's being destroyed. Now it's

1247
00:55:07,039 --> 00:55:09,159
if if the scholars since the Bible is yes, so

1248
00:55:09,199 --> 00:55:11,360
you agree, I'm happy we agree that the scholars and

1249
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,000
academy agree that the Bible has been changed, corrupting, there's

1250
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,800
no original, etcetera. Now these same eighties scholars and in academy,

1251
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:19,360
you will see that they admit that I've made views

1252
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:21,480
about this before. How the Kuran is preserved. You have

1253
00:55:21,519 --> 00:55:24,639
doctor and Jeric and units is not almostly articologue.

1254
00:55:24,639 --> 00:55:25,320
Speaker 2: You have many people I.

1255
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 8: Can mention now Jerr boy, I can mention many miniy

1256
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,239
names of different people who do believe. Or if you

1257
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,679
sort almost but academic that the Koran is preserved, there's

1258
00:55:31,679 --> 00:55:34,079
a whole book stritten on that. On the manuscripts, for example,

1259
00:55:34,159 --> 00:55:35,679
I'm Manu script and how they show the preservation of

1260
00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,239
the craw Koran. Never said the Bible is consistent. You're saying,

1261
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:39,199
we've been talking about the.

1262
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:41,559
Speaker 2: How to prove a Karan.

1263
00:55:41,599 --> 00:55:43,599
Speaker 8: We never talked about talking about the Bible is corrupt

1264
00:55:43,639 --> 00:55:45,480
has nothing to do with proving the cra Proving the

1265
00:55:45,559 --> 00:55:47,400
Kuran has a I have a video of my channel.

1266
00:55:47,400 --> 00:55:48,760
Speaker 2: Everyone is welcome to watch. Call.

1267
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:51,079
Speaker 8: Competic evidence is for the truth for this or we

1268
00:55:51,079 --> 00:55:52,599
see the prophecies in the Koran. And how do you

1269
00:55:52,639 --> 00:55:53,960
to say all of these different things. I don't know

1270
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:55,719
what you mean by proving. Maybe you're talking about different things.

1271
00:55:56,039 --> 00:55:59,400
Now we are talking about the corruption of the Bible.

1272
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,719
The Bible has been changed. Why would been corrupted? Is

1273
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:04,239
accepted in academia. I'm happy you through your whole religion

1274
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:06,039
under the post all. I agree that the Son is

1275
00:56:06,039 --> 00:56:08,840
subordinate to the Father, and I want Christians to listen

1276
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:10,920
to this. He's through everything other of us. He said, yes,

1277
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,960
we agree, is abordinate to the Father. Excellent, that's what

1278
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,440
we believe. It is Muslim Jesus is submitting to the Father.

1279
00:56:15,519 --> 00:56:17,840
That's what a Muslim is. A perfect Mohamed was submitting

1280
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:19,079
to a lot and that he is Muslim.

1281
00:56:19,159 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 7: Is ok to Jay. Let's do uh five minutes each,

1282
00:56:23,679 --> 00:56:25,519
five minutes for Jay and then five minutes for Muslims.

1283
00:56:25,519 --> 00:56:26,440
Will wrap it up here.

1284
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, six one fifteen. Again, neither of the passages that

1285
00:56:30,199 --> 00:56:33,079
he's talking about confirm what he's saying. Six one fifteen.

1286
00:56:33,119 --> 00:56:35,880
The word of the Lord is perfected in truth and justice.

1287
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:40,119
None can change Allah's words. He just admitted that the

1288
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:42,440
words of a law in the previous passages. You heard

1289
00:56:42,519 --> 00:56:45,639
him say in the last section there that no those verses,

1290
00:56:45,679 --> 00:56:48,159
those verses of the books, the message that's talking about

1291
00:56:48,159 --> 00:56:50,679
the previous revelations of the prophets, which he just said,

1292
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:53,960
is corrupted when his own Koran says, the word of

1293
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,039
a law right there cannot ever be corrupted. So he's

1294
00:56:57,079 --> 00:56:59,760
smarter than a law and the prophet according to his

1295
00:57:00,079 --> 00:57:04,199
attachment to unbelieving scholars. What I pointed out was his

1296
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,880
double standard and the fact that he's going to appeal

1297
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:08,599
to the same scholars. Oh, but there's a bunch of

1298
00:57:08,599 --> 00:57:10,960
other scholars that like the Quran. This is a fallacy

1299
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:14,000
of authority. Appealing to scholars is a fallacy of authority.

1300
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,440
If you think that proves a position, you argue that

1301
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,920
there's a bunch of scholars that debate the early Church,

1302
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,360
So what that has nothing to do with proving a position.

1303
00:57:21,599 --> 00:57:23,880
You could bring in scholars to back up a position,

1304
00:57:24,119 --> 00:57:26,760
but they don't prove anything. That's called the fallacy of

1305
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:31,119
appeal to authority. So multiple times he's made countless fallacies.

1306
00:57:31,119 --> 00:57:33,400
He doesn't even know what they are. I point them out,

1307
00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,880
and he laughs and talks past it. He appealed to.

1308
00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:38,280
He said that I made many fallacies talking about this

1309
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:40,960
problem of Allah's relationship to his attributes a one in

1310
00:57:41,039 --> 00:57:43,320
many which, by the way, he believes in an uncreated

1311
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:44,559
foot and uncreated shin if.

1312
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:45,079
Speaker 3: He's a Salafi.

1313
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,599
Speaker 1: If he doesn't, then he has to metaphorically interpret those things.

1314
00:57:47,719 --> 00:57:50,679
Wait a minute, now, he's afforded the ability to metaphorically

1315
00:57:50,719 --> 00:57:53,840
interpretate interpret these texts, but he doesn't grant that to

1316
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,440
us when we talk about these passages where Jesus clearly

1317
00:57:56,559 --> 00:57:59,679
uses rhetoric, clearly uses exaggeration. No, no, no, we're not allowed

1318
00:57:59,679 --> 00:58:01,760
to do that. And by the way, he did try

1319
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,519
to say that I have to prove in John one

1320
00:58:04,639 --> 00:58:08,079
because there's no mention of three hypostass Hypostasis is mentioned

1321
00:58:08,079 --> 00:58:10,880
in Hebrews one, where it's identified that the son is

1322
00:58:11,119 --> 00:58:14,480
the eternal son of the Father and he's equally divine.

1323
00:58:14,519 --> 00:58:18,239
He constantly misunderstood what monarchical trinitarianism is because he doesn't

1324
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,639
know what it is. Because it recognizes this distinction between

1325
00:58:21,639 --> 00:58:24,079
the father and the son in terms of monarchia, that

1326
00:58:24,159 --> 00:58:26,840
doesn't mean that there's a difference in essence. So his

1327
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:30,280
whole argumentation, this entire time was assuming that distinction between

1328
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:33,320
the persons necessarily and tells the distinction of or a

1329
00:58:33,360 --> 00:58:36,119
diminution of essence, which I said from the very opening

1330
00:58:36,199 --> 00:58:40,119
statement is not our position. So again, Allah's words are

1331
00:58:40,159 --> 00:58:44,559
not corruptible. He believes they've been corrupted. Allah is one,

1332
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,400
But you heard him use analogies to the blackness of

1333
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,559
his shirt to help me. But his own Kuran says

1334
00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:54,400
that Allah is nothing like things in creation. I'm pretty

1335
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,000
sure your shirt is a creature. I'm pretty sure black

1336
00:58:57,159 --> 00:58:59,559
is a part or an attribute of a shirt. So

1337
00:58:59,599 --> 00:59:03,800
your own analogies refute you. And that's why I'm constantly

1338
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:06,679
calling you out on a double standard. I'm not saying

1339
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:09,599
you don't answer by stating your position, but like many

1340
00:59:09,599 --> 00:59:12,039
people who are no good at debate, you think answering

1341
00:59:12,159 --> 00:59:16,920
your position is refuting an argument, calling out a contradiction.

1342
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,000
I'm arguing your position contradicts. I'm not asking you to

1343
00:59:21,119 --> 00:59:25,320
restate the position. I'm saying your position contradicts in many ways.

1344
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,480
These things contradict. The word of Allah cannot be corrupted

1345
00:59:29,519 --> 00:59:32,280
or changed. You just said the prior revelations were corrupted

1346
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:32,800
and changed.

1347
00:59:35,559 --> 00:59:38,639
Speaker 7: Okay, I'll give a final statement to muscle lantern. He

1348
00:59:38,639 --> 00:59:40,559
went around three minutes. If you can keep it three

1349
00:59:40,639 --> 00:59:41,679
to four, I think to be fair.

1350
00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:43,679
Speaker 2: All good, no problem, All right.

1351
00:59:43,719 --> 00:59:46,079
Speaker 8: So you mentioned chapter six of the Paran, and as

1352
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:48,559
I said, already, there's two only two business. Lefron talks

1353
00:59:48,559 --> 00:59:50,960
about Doors of a Life chapter six and another chapter

1354
00:59:51,079 --> 00:59:52,199
the cap chapter eighteen.

1355
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 4: Of the Pran.

1356
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:54,599
Speaker 8: One explicitly talks about the Kurran mentions the AA the

1357
00:59:54,679 --> 00:59:57,639
verses of a lot, specifically referring to the Koran, and

1358
00:59:57,679 --> 01:00:00,199
the other one, which he quoted in six, is talks

1359
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:02,079
It talks about the judgment and the promise of all

1360
01:00:02,159 --> 01:00:02,559
How do you know?

1361
01:00:02,639 --> 01:00:04,519
Speaker 2: Read the verse before a lot of the justices in.

1362
01:00:06,519 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 8: Is there any judge that I will take other than

1363
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:10,159
a lot talking about the judgment of a lot? And

1364
01:00:10,199 --> 01:00:14,599
then it says that that with and the promise of

1365
01:00:14,639 --> 01:00:16,320
your order the world, the judgment of your world has

1366
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,559
been fulfilled. What he's not talking about, I'm talking about

1367
01:00:18,639 --> 01:00:20,920
versus definitely not talking about.

1368
01:00:23,039 --> 01:00:29,239
Speaker 9: Because I've already says Lion says, don't cry, don't cry,

1369
01:00:29,559 --> 01:00:38,000
don't cry. Mute him by the way, he's you should

1370
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,320
other than I let you speak, You should be.

1371
01:00:43,159 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 7: Your time.

1372
01:00:45,159 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 2: Can you please mute him because he's going to try.

1373
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,719
Speaker 8: And all right, okay, so again we'll say this is very,

1374
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,320
very very simply the verse of the Koran.

1375
01:00:53,119 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 2: I mentioned it.

1376
01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 8: I mentioned the verse and opening excisions, open excsures of

1377
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:59,760
the scholars. Nobody have said in Islamic history that this

1378
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,280
is fairy to the previous scriptures. And I give evidences

1379
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:03,880
why this is not referring to the previous scriptures, that

1380
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:05,159
they are corrupt, and I give evidences.

1381
01:01:05,199 --> 01:01:07,519
Speaker 2: He give it evidence by himself. Take the verse in

1382
01:01:07,559 --> 01:01:08,079
chapter five.

1383
01:01:08,119 --> 01:01:10,559
Speaker 8: Also, I give chapter to seventy five.

1384
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 2: Which is clearly this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

1385
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:15,800
Now he said, oh, we do metaphors, win did they

1386
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:17,960
do it before? Or if you're this, if you you

1387
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:19,559
don't even know what I am, that's that's the problem.

1388
01:01:19,559 --> 01:01:20,239
You come to argue it.

1389
01:01:20,239 --> 01:01:22,039
Speaker 3: But you don't stay where you are. You don't stay

1390
01:01:22,039 --> 01:01:22,480
where you are.

1391
01:01:23,719 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 2: I only stay I'm a Muslim. I don't do other

1392
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:26,599
than that.

1393
01:01:26,599 --> 01:01:30,679
Speaker 3: That's deceptive. You're not You're not they do this as why.

1394
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 10: He knows that's a deception.

1395
01:01:34,199 --> 01:01:37,639
Speaker 2: It's not like he doesn't understand this. He doesn't understand that.

1396
01:01:38,199 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 3: He's freaking out because you got what.

1397
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,519
Speaker 8: We call UK waffle in the UK, it's just someone

1398
01:01:42,519 --> 01:01:43,559
waffle's few words.

1399
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,239
Speaker 2: He thinks he's making big words. We can confuse the audience.

1400
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: Will never answer any objection, and he's not allowed to.

1401
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,880
You have to have a school. There's no no, no

1402
01:01:53,039 --> 01:01:57,400
school or another. So he's actually he's actually acting doesn't

1403
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:58,320
have so.

1404
01:01:58,239 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 2: There's no contradiction. So I was refuting him.

1405
01:02:00,039 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 8: Came to the black and white shirt and all I

1406
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:03,920
already told him this analogy to do with the attributes,

1407
01:02:03,920 --> 01:02:04,960
not to do with a loss, So do not.

1408
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to say.

1409
01:02:05,679 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 7: The shirt is a lot.

1410
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:11,679
Speaker 1: It's an analogy to anything, and the analogy doesn't do anything.

1411
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 2: That's look, Jay left defending this guy. He's supported. He

1412
01:02:16,079 --> 01:02:17,079
started to use some morefully.

1413
01:02:17,119 --> 01:02:19,519
Speaker 8: All the essence is not as that it doesn't matter

1414
01:02:19,639 --> 01:02:22,920
what we can see scriptures, because before all of this.

1415
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:24,159
Speaker 2: Philosophy have been introduced.

1416
01:02:24,719 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 8: Now it's phil is that clearly Jesus was supported, and

1417
01:02:28,440 --> 01:02:30,280
that's why we have the earliest groups like the United

1418
01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:34,840
and did not believe that traditarian believes we have the

1419
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:35,440
Church fathers.

1420
01:02:35,440 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 2: And I said, I can easily.

1421
01:02:36,559 --> 01:02:39,239
Speaker 8: Give more quotes that they didn't agree on the concept

1422
01:02:39,239 --> 01:02:41,920
that Jay has in his mind. So simply Ja has

1423
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,960
put Jesus under the bus from a position that he

1424
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:47,480
believes in the trinity. And he clearly admitted he doesn't

1425
01:02:47,519 --> 01:02:49,079
know the hour. It is not the same. I think

1426
01:02:49,119 --> 01:02:50,960
it's just contradicting himself. It is he doesn't know the hour,

1427
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:52,800
but in the same time, they're not equally this is

1428
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:54,360
but at the same time they're the same. But he

1429
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:56,679
just keeps contradicting himself and going in the same circle.

1430
01:02:56,840 --> 01:02:58,679
So is it the four He doesn't really know the

1431
01:02:58,679 --> 01:03:01,119
hour and they're supported into what he doesn't know his

1432
01:03:01,119 --> 01:03:01,840
own positions.

1433
01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:05,199
Speaker 1: And with that I answered everything that nobody's bonding.

1434
01:03:05,119 --> 01:03:07,599
Speaker 8: Except the Lord of Jesus, who he said he's coming

1435
01:03:07,639 --> 01:03:09,199
back to, say, going back to my God. We asked

1436
01:03:09,239 --> 01:03:11,400
you to worship that lord that Jesus came to, and

1437
01:03:11,400 --> 01:03:12,880
he said he's going to worship. He's going to go

1438
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:14,320
back to. That is the Lord that we called you

1439
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:16,559
to worship. The Lord of Jesus most is not profect.

1440
01:03:16,599 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 2: Muhammad, and peace be upon all of the prophets and messengers.

1441
01:03:19,039 --> 01:03:22,000
Speaker 8: And I'll conclude here with this cooking and because it's

1442
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,960
burning in the kitchen now, all right, person.

1443
01:03:26,639 --> 01:03:29,280
Speaker 7: Hold on, Jay, I want to get because he we

1444
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,400
there was interruptions. I did said that it was going

1445
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:34,199
to be the closing statements, but because it seems like

1446
01:03:34,199 --> 01:03:36,360
there's more, do you think we could do one more

1447
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:37,280
back and forth two minutes?

1448
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:39,199
Speaker 8: Teaches, I don't care what both parties I No, I

1449
01:03:39,239 --> 01:03:41,000
think that's it's good to edit here.

1450
01:03:41,039 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 2: I don't want to go more.

1451
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to go anymore. Right, he knows I'm

1452
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:48,239
going to the same thing. No, I have a three

1453
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:51,159
seventy eighth, says the book is not three seventy eight,

1454
01:03:51,239 --> 01:03:53,679
says the book is. So he doesn't want anymore because

1455
01:03:53,679 --> 01:03:54,119
he knows.

1456
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:54,599
Speaker 3: He got bodied.

1457
01:03:55,039 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 2: We already had a debate that now you're losing christ

1458
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:58,159
I appreciate it.

1459
01:03:58,159 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 1: If we're bringing up more of your problems. I'm not crying.

1460
01:04:02,199 --> 01:04:05,239
You're the one snickering with that gig because you got cooked.

1461
01:04:05,719 --> 01:04:06,519
It's all rhetoric.

1462
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,519
Speaker 7: Jay. It was nice to meet you, and I appreciate

1463
01:04:10,559 --> 01:04:12,199
you coming on here. This is much more civil than

1464
01:04:12,199 --> 01:04:14,719
the earlier data. I hope to do this again. I

1465
01:04:14,719 --> 01:04:18,280
think this was anytime.

1466
01:04:22,119 --> 01:04:23,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, what a joke, dude.

1467
01:04:23,239 --> 01:04:27,440
Speaker 1: That guy was pitiful dude, And yeah, I I butted

1468
01:04:27,519 --> 01:04:29,559
him many times, because this whole thing was resting on

1469
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,880
miss misinterpreting and misunderstanding and ignoring. And uh, I hope

1470
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:39,159
everybody heard him completely collapse on the attributes and no

1471
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:43,280
idea what monarchical trinitarianism is and what the position is.

1472
01:04:43,719 --> 01:04:46,000
The passages that we're talking about in the Koran. Do

1473
01:04:46,119 --> 01:04:49,239
not say that they're only talking about the Quran. This

1474
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:51,960
is talking about the text of the Jews and the Christians.

1475
01:04:52,559 --> 01:04:54,559
And it's here saying that do not say the book

1476
01:04:54,599 --> 01:04:57,400
is corrupt. That is not corrupt. And on that last

1477
01:04:57,480 --> 01:04:59,679
passage he said, this is talking about all those judgments,

1478
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:00,400
not a book.

1479
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 3: It set a book.

1480
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 1: Allah has revealed to you, the Torah and the Gospel

1481
01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:16,719
three three. Allaw's words cannot be corrupted anyway. I hope

1482
01:05:16,719 --> 01:05:18,719
everybody clips the heck of the heck out of that

1483
01:05:19,119 --> 01:05:24,000
and shows the parts where he especially, I felt like

1484
01:05:24,039 --> 01:05:28,599
on the attributes, like he was completely demolished. So everybody

1485
01:05:28,599 --> 01:05:31,119
should clip that. I hope that goes viral. We got

1486
01:05:31,119 --> 01:05:36,320
some super chats here, zalmonics five. I'm a lawyer and

1487
01:05:36,360 --> 01:05:38,840
a Christian. I've been practicing. You're the best debater I've

1488
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:41,000
ever seen. This is even in litigation, thank you. I mean,

1489
01:05:41,039 --> 01:05:45,960
I think debate and you know law they overlap quite

1490
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:47,559
a bit. In fact, we were watching a movie last

1491
01:05:47,599 --> 01:05:49,480
night that had a lot of courtroom stuff going on,

1492
01:05:49,559 --> 01:05:52,719
and Jamie was asking me we were talking about debate

1493
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:58,360
related issues. Yeah, it is interesting. You could probably find

1494
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:02,000
a lot of parallels with the way that I go

1495
01:06:02,119 --> 01:06:05,679
about and do debate in the way that lawyers do stuff.

1496
01:06:07,639 --> 01:06:09,599
I don't actually know a lot about, you know, law

1497
01:06:09,639 --> 01:06:12,000
and litigation and all that. But again, I do imagine

1498
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,679
that there's a lot of overlap there. But you know,

1499
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:22,320
really it's I guess the comparison would be like a

1500
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:27,440
lawyer wants to probably trip somebody up in their statements,

1501
01:06:27,719 --> 01:06:31,760
and I'm kind of doing the same thing, except that

1502
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:34,599
I'm also looking for not just will they trip up,

1503
01:06:34,639 --> 01:06:37,079
but are they violating the laws of logic? Right? So

1504
01:06:37,159 --> 01:06:39,760
that's a big part of it. You notice that guy

1505
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:43,679
never he didn't even understand any of the fallacies, what

1506
01:06:43,719 --> 01:06:45,960
the fallacies are, why it's even wrong to make fallacies.

1507
01:06:46,000 --> 01:06:48,760
This is the death knell of anybody in a debate.

1508
01:06:49,639 --> 01:06:53,519
Fallacies might not be that relevant in a litigation setting

1509
01:06:53,599 --> 01:06:56,760
or in a courtroom, although they might be to some degree,

1510
01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:05,480
but that's an interesting question. I imagine they have some

1511
01:07:05,519 --> 01:07:09,440
overlap with a courtroom sitting. Jeremiah James five dollars. Muslim

1512
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:13,880
lantern hasn't had any oil since Mohammed was with Aisha Oh.

1513
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:16,000
Rachel Wilson one hundred dollars. Thank you so much, Rachel,

1514
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,800
appreciate that. That's a big fat superche You don't have

1515
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:19,880
to give me that, but that's really sweet of you

1516
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:23,440
appreciate it. And I didn't want. I hope Andrew didn't

1517
01:07:23,559 --> 01:07:29,119
think that I was like streaming over his debate. I

1518
01:07:29,199 --> 01:07:31,920
actually forgot that he was doing that debate tonight. I

1519
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:35,840
thought that was like several days in the future. So anyway,

1520
01:07:35,840 --> 01:07:37,920
I didn't mean to step over you know you guys

1521
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:40,400
in terms of streaming time. But thank you for that,

1522
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:42,679
But it sounds like it was kind of a it

1523
01:07:42,719 --> 01:07:44,880
didn't go as planned there. Well, Am annual five dollars.

1524
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,320
Thank you for the extra time with patience. Yeah, I

1525
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:49,559
mean again, I've already been debating for four hours straight.

1526
01:07:49,719 --> 01:07:52,639
So how long was this one? I don't even know,

1527
01:07:53,079 --> 01:08:01,159
another hour and a half. It looks like, yeah, what

1528
01:08:01,199 --> 01:08:04,320
did you guys think about this? How do you guys

1529
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:07,360
think Muslim lantern did. I really feel like he was

1530
01:08:08,119 --> 01:08:11,800
collapsing on the attributes part, because everything he said about

1531
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:19,560
the attributes was like, what do you mean that's embarrassing? Jay?

1532
01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:21,760
Church fathers under the bus? What are you talking about?

1533
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:24,000
I did throw the church fathers on the bus. What

1534
01:08:24,039 --> 01:08:28,560
I said was he was oversimplifying it by saying, do

1535
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:32,079
the church fathers teach the Trinity? And do they teach

1536
01:08:32,119 --> 01:08:36,479
it without debate? And I said, no, they teach that

1537
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,399
the persons are distinct and that there's the divinity of Christ,

1538
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:42,840
but they do debate things. And so that's why I

1539
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:48,720
didn't agree to his oversimplified questions. So Muslims, you notice

1540
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:51,359
Daniel did the exact same thing, didn't he. Daniel did

1541
01:08:51,399 --> 01:08:53,880
the exact same thing. Where Daniel said, I want the

1542
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:57,520
simple answer. Look how simple Islam is? You guys have complex,

1543
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:02,039
difficult doctrines. But the reality is Muslim also have complex doctrines.

1544
01:09:02,199 --> 01:09:04,560
And so he lied when he said, what is this akida?

1545
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:04,880
I don't know.

1546
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:07,560
Speaker 3: He knows what akida is. It's the different schools.

1547
01:09:08,319 --> 01:09:10,520
Speaker 1: He knows that there's different traditions and that they've killed

1548
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,840
each other over these things. And that's why he tried

1549
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,079
to deflect away from it, tell me the four principles

1550
01:09:16,119 --> 01:09:19,119
of the multa kalim like as that that has anything

1551
01:09:19,159 --> 01:09:21,399
to do with the argument I'm making about his position.

1552
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:23,640
So that was all deflections.

1553
01:09:25,279 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 3: Bryce.

1554
01:09:26,000 --> 01:09:28,039
Speaker 1: But you notice what he did the same things as

1555
01:09:28,199 --> 01:09:32,960
Daniel by arguing that you set something up as an

1556
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:42,720
overly simple It's called a complex fallacy of oversimplication. That's

1557
01:09:42,760 --> 01:09:45,920
what it's called. Right, So the Trinity is a complex doctrine,

1558
01:09:46,319 --> 01:09:48,680
and so you say something like, I give an example

1559
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:51,640
of this, where's the verse that proves the doctrine of

1560
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:54,840
the Trinity. There isn't one. You see, the Trinity can't

1561
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:59,399
be proven from scripture. Well, the argument assumes that the

1562
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:03,079
Trinity is a doctrine that would only come from a verse.

1563
01:10:03,279 --> 01:10:21,520
So it's a fallacy, right. Over simplification fallacy is the

1564
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:24,439
fallacy of the single cause. Over simplifies a complex issue

1565
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:27,279
to imply that a single cause produces the same effect.

1566
01:10:27,359 --> 01:10:29,199
It doesn't have to be causalor it can also be

1567
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:33,279
a false either or right. Either the Church fathers taught

1568
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:38,159
the Trinity or they didn't. Well, the Church fathers did

1569
01:10:38,199 --> 01:10:39,920
teach the doctrine of trinity, and there was a lot

1570
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:42,239
of debate, but he was trying to make it like

1571
01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:46,119
if there's debate, they didn't teach it and it wasn't clear. Remember,

1572
01:10:46,199 --> 01:10:49,359
Daniel made this point, he said there was debate, and

1573
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:51,359
if there's debate over it, it's not true. And then

1574
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:54,800
Daniel turn around said, Muslims have debated this. Oh but

1575
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:57,319
wait a minute, Daniel, you said that debate means that

1576
01:10:57,359 --> 01:10:59,399
it's not true if people are debating it. So you

1577
01:10:59,399 --> 01:11:02,680
see how silly these people are. John Z one hundred dollars,

1578
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:04,439
Thank you so much, you destroyed that clown. God blurss,

1579
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:08,399
thank you God bless you as well much appreciating those

1580
01:11:08,399 --> 01:11:14,439
fat super chats cards one dollar To confirm the Quran,

1581
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:17,279
you go to the Koran. Yes, he said that, didn't he?

1582
01:11:17,279 --> 01:11:19,359
He said, No one here is asking about proof of

1583
01:11:19,359 --> 01:11:21,119
the Kuran. I'm asking about proof of the Koran. What

1584
01:11:21,159 --> 01:11:23,279
are you talking about? What do you mean nobody's asking

1585
01:11:23,279 --> 01:11:26,079
That's the very thing I asked you more than once. Yeah,

1586
01:11:26,119 --> 01:11:29,279
you go through the Koran to prove the Koran exactly exactly,

1587
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:35,119
the logic is haram. Exactly, logic is haram. Jake Bernitt's

1588
01:11:35,199 --> 01:11:37,840
thirty three dollars I recently had a debate with a Muslim.

1589
01:11:38,079 --> 01:11:40,479
He made a similar point, saying that the son is

1590
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:42,960
subordinate to the father, so they're not equal. So something

1591
01:11:42,960 --> 01:11:45,880
can be subordinate and equal and distinct in different ways.

1592
01:11:46,119 --> 01:11:48,800
And every analogy that I gave was to that effect.

1593
01:11:49,399 --> 01:11:52,119
A father and a son are distinct. The son is

1594
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:57,319
subordinate to the father, but they have equal nature. The

1595
01:11:57,439 --> 01:12:00,279
king can invest the prince with all the power of

1596
01:12:00,319 --> 01:12:05,560
the king. They're distinct persons, but the king can grant

1597
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:10,279
to the prince all the powers of the king. So

1598
01:12:10,319 --> 01:12:13,199
they have the same nature, human nature, and all the

1599
01:12:13,199 --> 01:12:16,439
same powers. Remember he said there is no verse word.

1600
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:18,680
Does Jesus say the Father have given all the power

1601
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:23,000
of till son? Yeah, there is, I read it John sixteen.

1602
01:12:23,359 --> 01:12:27,760
Speaker 11: And then he's like, this doesn't say trinity, doesn't say hypostasis. Yeah,

1603
01:12:27,800 --> 01:12:33,399
hypostasis is using other passages. Dude, please go into more

1604
01:12:33,399 --> 01:12:35,439
depth about the training. So the people that are interested

1605
01:12:35,439 --> 01:12:39,159
in this, all of the monarchical trinitarian talks of doctor

1606
01:12:39,159 --> 01:12:53,960
Bo Branson cover this in great detail. So if you

1607
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,359
go to Bo Branson dot com and you come over

1608
01:12:57,399 --> 01:13:01,039
here to meet I think it's media. Yeah, so Bobranson

1609
01:13:01,079 --> 01:13:05,199
dot com media appearances, and on this page is a

1610
01:13:05,319 --> 01:13:19,680
five part lecture series and then other interviews on monarchical trinitarianism.

1611
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:21,840
You know, the funny thing is that the very first

1612
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:26,359
thing that I said answers half of his objections. I

1613
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:31,600
in the first five minutes mentioned monarchical trinitarianism, and then

1614
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:34,920
he spent half of the dam ofn debate arguing against

1615
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:36,399
texts that.

1616
01:13:36,359 --> 01:13:41,119
Speaker 1: Proved monarchical trinitarianism. Have you ever brought up First John

1617
01:13:41,159 --> 01:13:45,720
five to seven to a Muslim? I don't know. Let's see,

1618
01:13:47,079 --> 01:13:49,439
I don't usually because they don't care. On most of

1619
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,119
the time, they don't care about the text. Oh that's

1620
01:13:52,119 --> 01:13:55,399
the Joan comma. I mean they're going to just say, well,

1621
01:13:55,439 --> 01:13:58,680
that's not in all the old manuscripts. But I mean,

1622
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:01,119
there's plenty of passages to teacher. We don't it's not

1623
01:14:01,119 --> 01:14:06,600
like we have to have the y comma. So it

1624
01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:08,560
looks like a lot of people are saying they think

1625
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:13,439
that he's one of the worst debaters. He was definitely

1626
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:19,159
pretty sneaky, slippery. Who's is he one of the worst?

1627
01:14:20,159 --> 01:14:20,479
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1628
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:22,640
Speaker 1: I mean that's my that's my only experience of that dude.

1629
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:26,079
I've I've never heard or seen anything about him, so

1630
01:14:26,159 --> 01:14:31,239
he's kind of sneaky hints sneak. Oh but alulah three

1631
01:14:31,279 --> 01:14:38,720
dollars crisis King. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, I know, the the

1632
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:42,520
yawning comma is uh, I don't I mean we call

1633
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:47,640
we covered that in the James Snap interview. Sneak o

1634
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:51,960
mods will block Christians in the chat? Well, yeah, I mean, look,

1635
01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,800
Islam is not a position that relies on logic. It's

1636
01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:02,079
a position that relies on trickery, tomfoolery and sneakery. So

1637
01:15:02,119 --> 01:15:12,039
what do you expect so voting the poll? There's a poll,

1638
01:15:12,279 --> 01:15:14,399
So yeah, I mean he just basically went to all

1639
01:15:14,399 --> 01:15:17,159
the classic dollars script stuff. What's funny about all of that?

1640
01:15:17,319 --> 01:15:19,800
I think that really, all the dollars script stuff and

1641
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:22,000
all of what they do, it's really just meant to

1642
01:15:22,119 --> 01:15:28,000
like try to capture the low tier, lowest common denominator audience,

1643
01:15:28,199 --> 01:15:31,199
to bring them in who are aren't interested in any

1644
01:15:31,319 --> 01:15:35,359
kind of like distinctions or any kind of nuance. And

1645
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:38,239
it's just intended really to be a way to capture

1646
01:15:38,359 --> 01:15:41,760
low tier stuff. And then when they deal with people

1647
01:15:41,760 --> 01:15:54,079
who aren't low tier, it becomes very obvious. I think, oh,

1648
01:15:54,079 --> 01:15:59,479
that's the poll from their stream. Oh they have a stream. Well,

1649
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:06,039
I'm sure all Muslims are in their stream. So so

1650
01:16:06,199 --> 01:16:09,840
here let's see here you Yeah, definitely if you want to, Yeah,

1651
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:13,760
definitely go debate. I mean, oops, here we go, I

1652
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:22,119
mean vote, excuse me, not debate? Who won? I think

1653
01:16:22,159 --> 01:16:26,880
I won, So I'm gonna say I won, But I

1654
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:28,479
should do my own poll because I'm sure there's a

1655
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:32,239
bunch of Muslims silent one dollar. It's crazy how Lantern

1656
01:16:32,399 --> 01:16:38,720
was using fallacies when he twists your words and just lies,

1657
01:16:38,920 --> 01:16:41,039
and the Muslims eat it up. They don't actually read

1658
01:16:41,079 --> 01:16:49,560
their sources. Correct toy five dollars. I recently listened to

1659
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:51,720
all the Bo Branson lectures on that page because you

1660
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:54,439
recommended it. It blew my mind. It's very interesting. Yeah, exactly.

1661
01:16:55,439 --> 01:17:07,359
Doctor Branson's monarchical trinitarian talks are essential, So definitely head

1662
01:17:07,359 --> 01:17:16,279
on over here and watch these. But that's okay. I

1663
01:17:16,319 --> 01:17:17,920
mean the people that want to be idiots and they

1664
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:19,640
want to be you know, low tier, and they want

1665
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:22,039
to believe stupid stuff. You're you're never going to change

1666
01:17:22,399 --> 01:17:30,319
people that are not open to what's true. Yeah, I'll

1667
01:17:30,319 --> 01:17:33,279
be sure, and vote so that these people don't just

1668
01:17:33,359 --> 01:17:36,199
promote their own Muslim polls, which is I'm sure what

1669
01:17:36,239 --> 01:17:44,680
they're gonna do, but straw pole here, and keep in mind,

1670
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:46,720
I had no idea what's going on. I didn't even

1671
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:48,520
I didn't even know what topic until I went in

1672
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:53,640
the room. I've already been debating for four hours. So

1673
01:17:53,680 --> 01:17:58,840
there we go, Tamata, Oh no, excuse me, Italian King.

1674
01:17:58,880 --> 01:18:02,520
Ten dollars, Good job, Jay, crisis King, love and forgiveness

1675
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:07,319
they're lacking nowadays. Yeah, I would agree with that, Hunter

1676
01:18:07,399 --> 01:18:10,000
Tyler three fifty five one dollars. Muslims reject Paul. Paul

1677
01:18:10,119 --> 01:18:13,960
is a transgressior in Galatians won it absolutely recxs Islam

1678
01:18:13,960 --> 01:18:18,159
and shows Mohammed as a false prophet. Yeah, doctor feaded again.

1679
01:18:18,239 --> 01:18:20,159
And Eys and I have made this point many times

1680
01:18:20,199 --> 01:18:26,840
that the finality of revelation, which is taught very clearly

1681
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:28,880
even in the Old Testament, that when the Messiah comes

1682
01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:32,600
the Messianic era, well there was an end of divine revelation. Okay,

1683
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:35,479
there's no new revelations after the death of the apostles.

1684
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:38,520
That's it. So that right there cuts off all of

1685
01:18:38,560 --> 01:18:43,800
the future cults Mormons, Mohammedan's it doesn't matter, eric Ze

1686
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:46,439
three dollars three thirty seven. You're very patient arguing with

1687
01:18:46,479 --> 01:18:48,399
a wall like that. Well, they always play this game

1688
01:18:48,399 --> 01:18:49,800
where they're like, oh, we want to have a conversation,

1689
01:18:49,880 --> 01:18:51,560
we want to have a conversation, and then they immediately

1690
01:18:51,600 --> 01:18:55,560
start with all the tricks, because theirs is a system

1691
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:58,000
and a position that has to rely on a bunch

1692
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,920
of tricks. So we don't really on tricks over here.

1693
01:19:01,039 --> 01:19:03,319
I will interrupt people, and I'll call people out when

1694
01:19:03,319 --> 01:19:06,000
they start lying and saying something I didn't say. Jake

1695
01:19:06,000 --> 01:19:08,079
Burnett's one dollar. What do you think the Muslims insist

1696
01:19:08,199 --> 01:19:10,880
on everything being simple because they're appealing to simple people.

1697
01:19:11,279 --> 01:19:14,920
The whole position is about making it simple as a

1698
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:18,760
sales pitch for simple minded people. So the only people

1699
01:19:18,760 --> 01:19:21,680
who fall for this are people who are unfortunately not

1700
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:23,439
very sophisticated. Now, I don't want to make it only

1701
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:26,680
an intellectual thing, because not only intellectual, right, there's also

1702
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:29,840
a spiritual delusion component of this too. But spiritual delusion

1703
01:19:29,920 --> 01:19:33,079
effects our intellect, you see, it can darken the intellect

1704
01:19:33,119 --> 01:19:37,399
so that we don't have discernment. They always say that

1705
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:39,439
if you can explain the trinity to be simple, then

1706
01:19:39,439 --> 01:19:41,319
it's proven, and if not, it's relacious. Yeah, this is

1707
01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:49,800
an oversimplification fallacy. It's also an arbitrary expectation, like I

1708
01:19:49,840 --> 01:19:53,239
could make the same point, make Allah and his relationship

1709
01:19:53,319 --> 01:19:56,399
to his attribute simple, or else I won't believe it.

1710
01:19:56,479 --> 01:20:03,520
You see how silly that is? Well, this that's funny.

1711
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:05,680
If i'm it's funny. Even if I'm two percent I

1712
01:20:05,760 --> 01:20:09,119
had on their pole, this is their Muslim pole, and

1713
01:20:09,239 --> 01:20:11,600
I'm two percent ahead. That's funny. So you can go debate,

1714
01:20:11,760 --> 01:20:14,000
Go bait u, debate, go vote.

1715
01:20:14,079 --> 01:20:14,359
Speaker 3: Right there.

1716
01:20:15,159 --> 01:20:17,239
Speaker 1: My mind is beginning to turn the mush because we're

1717
01:20:17,319 --> 01:20:22,720
like six hours into debate now. But I do appreciate

1718
01:20:23,640 --> 01:20:27,119
Sneako at least finally sort of coming around and and

1719
01:20:27,239 --> 01:20:34,880
addressing this because people have been vote uh calling out

1720
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:42,640
sneak oh and asking him to come debate for a

1721
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:44,520
long time. That's funny.

1722
01:20:46,680 --> 01:20:49,399
Speaker 3: So they're gonna tell you quick, go vote, quick vote

1723
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:50,680
quick one one one.

1724
01:21:00,439 --> 01:21:03,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really, I really think they think that if

1725
01:21:03,479 --> 01:21:07,600
it's simple, it's got to be true. I mean, did

1726
01:21:07,680 --> 01:21:10,399
you notice too that he lied, like he said, we

1727
01:21:10,479 --> 01:21:12,359
don't know what is Akida? What is that he like,

1728
01:21:12,439 --> 01:21:15,479
he doesn't know what akda is. And by the way,

1729
01:21:15,760 --> 01:21:18,800
Muslims aren't allowed to ignore.

1730
01:21:19,880 --> 01:21:22,399
Speaker 3: A school. You have to be in some school.

1731
01:21:23,319 --> 01:21:27,920
Speaker 1: But he was being disingenuous, right and acting like, I

1732
01:21:28,000 --> 01:21:29,760
don't know what this word is? What are these what's

1733
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:33,640
what are the schools? And acting like they don't disagree

1734
01:21:33,680 --> 01:21:37,800
amongst themselves. Come on, I hope everybody saw how ridiculous

1735
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:44,960
that was. Right, Akda creed? Which creed?

1736
01:21:45,079 --> 01:21:47,119
Speaker 3: Which school of Islamic theology? Are you a part of?

1737
01:21:47,199 --> 01:21:47,920
What is akida?

1738
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:49,720
Speaker 1: I don't know what is this world? I don't know

1739
01:21:49,880 --> 01:21:51,680
his word? What is this work made up?

1740
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:52,039
Speaker 2: Are you?

1741
01:21:52,279 --> 01:21:55,039
Speaker 3: He's making up words? Doesn't know what it mean?

1742
01:21:57,760 --> 01:22:00,159
Speaker 1: And what have we done but call out people like

1743
01:22:00,319 --> 01:22:02,920
Jake and the others that change their akida depending upon

1744
01:22:03,000 --> 01:22:05,760
the debate that they're in, which you're not allowed to do,

1745
01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:09,000
but you are allowed to do it in a religion

1746
01:22:09,039 --> 01:22:11,680
that's deceptive and allows you to lie and trick and

1747
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:14,199
do all this, do this trickery. So I guess they

1748
01:22:14,239 --> 01:22:16,199
are allowed to do it even though technically they're not

1749
01:22:16,239 --> 01:22:16,720
allowed to do it.

1750
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:20,279
Speaker 3: What is this adida? I don't know what adidas?

1751
01:22:20,319 --> 01:22:21,680
Speaker 7: Are these shoes?

1752
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:24,680
Speaker 3: What is the shoes. Look at a black shirt like

1753
01:22:24,840 --> 01:22:27,359
a lah has parts, but he doesn't have parts. It's

1754
01:22:27,359 --> 01:22:29,600
an analogy to help you with my shirt, but it's

1755
01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:31,439
done like a lot. You see how silly this was.

1756
01:22:32,319 --> 01:22:33,159
Speaker 4: This was so bad.

1757
01:22:34,399 --> 01:22:39,000
Speaker 1: But even their own poles, they're having a hard time.

1758
01:22:39,079 --> 01:22:42,920
Speaker 3: Even even their own poles. Look at that ten.

1759
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:50,439
Speaker 1: Percent above in their own pole. Oh man, Muslim take loss,

1760
01:22:51,760 --> 01:23:00,199
Muslim take a big l Okay, I'm about totally exhausted. No,

1761
01:23:00,600 --> 01:23:04,800
so thank you guys for all of this. I'm definitely

1762
01:23:04,840 --> 01:23:07,079
gonna clip this one up because this one was funny.

1763
01:23:07,840 --> 01:23:11,159
All you guys, definitely clip clip clip because the clips

1764
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:14,359
go out crazier and further than the actual long live shoots.

1765
01:23:14,359 --> 01:23:15,479
A lot of people are not going to watch this

1766
01:23:15,600 --> 01:23:19,880
six six hour live stream, but zillion people watch these clips.

1767
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:23,960
Sam's channels of clips blew up bigger than his main

1768
01:23:24,119 --> 01:23:29,640
Shammounian channel. So guys, you guys, clip clip, clip, clip away,

1769
01:23:30,239 --> 01:23:34,800
especially clip him making all those dumb mistakes and saying

1770
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:40,920
all that stupid stuff. Clip it to oblivion, Bros. Clip channels,

1771
01:23:41,000 --> 01:23:48,600
please clip gubb clip it all those other clippers clipper ships,

1772
01:23:48,600 --> 01:23:54,319
clip it. Texas guy. One great performance appreciate you. Hey,

1773
01:23:54,359 --> 01:23:56,159
thank you so much. You guys are being so generous.

1774
01:23:57,119 --> 01:24:00,279
I guess I guess it was worth it to come

1775
01:24:00,359 --> 01:24:06,119
to work tonight to debate for six freakin' hours and

1776
01:24:06,239 --> 01:24:09,760
get a nice paycheck. Thank you guys so much, appreciate it.

1777
01:24:10,199 --> 01:24:14,479
Much love to you guys. God bless everybody. Uh again,

1778
01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:19,640
Please guys, start your own clip channels to our bro

1779
01:24:19,800 --> 01:24:25,680
clip channels, jub all the other ones, Kyle guys, clip

1780
01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:31,880
it and be sure and head over to chalk dot com.

1781
01:24:32,039 --> 01:24:34,960
Use promo code J forty to get forty percent off

1782
01:24:35,399 --> 01:24:38,439
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1783
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1784
01:24:41,159 --> 01:24:43,439
get my books, you can head over to Jasonnoulsons dot

1785
01:24:43,479 --> 01:24:47,079
com in the shop and get all of my books

1786
01:24:47,119 --> 01:24:49,680
signed copies. You can also subscribe to my website or

1787
01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:54,159
subscribe to me on Rockfinn and uh everybody, have a

1788
01:24:54,199 --> 01:24:54,520
good night.