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Every week, 43 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:01.480 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 44 00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:05.480 killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 45 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:19.199 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 46 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:24.360 Charles Lucky Luciano is one of the most researched, discussed, 47 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.280 and dissected American mobsters of all time. His name has 48 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.800 become synonymous with New York City's high drama gangland, days 49 00:02:31.800 --> 00:02:36.080 of prohibition, bootlegging, the information of the infamous Five Families, 50 00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:42.039 and controversy over his alleged last testament. However, there exists 51 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:45.599 many fascinating and lurid tales and theories regarding Lucky's rise 52 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.719 and fall from the mob's top spot. Some of these 53 00:02:48.759 --> 00:02:51.919 stories are known but still incited debate, such as the 54 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:56.240 origins of his nickname and menacing facial scars. Other legends 55 00:02:56.240 --> 00:03:00.759 are not so well known to the general publication. Called 56 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:04.719 from rare news articles, government documents, and numerous books written 57 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:07.199 on the subject, this book will give readers a chance 58 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:10.319 to discover Luciano in a way that engages the mystery 59 00:03:10.319 --> 00:03:14.080 of his pop culture status while encouraging further debate over 60 00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.199 the facts and fallacies that exist about his true role 61 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:21.199 in the history of the American mafia structure. The book 62 00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:25.719 that we're featuring this evening is Lucky Luciano Mysterious Tales 63 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:28.680 of a Gangster Legend, with my special guest, journalist and 64 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.360 author Christian Cipolini. Welcome back to the program, and thank 65 00:03:32.360 --> 00:03:35.759 you very much for green to this interview. Christian Cippolini. 66 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:38.639 Dan, thank you always a pleasure. 67 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.639 Thank you, always a pleasure. So let's just get right 68 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:45.840 into this. I won't even ask you one of the 69 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:48.719 questions I normally ask, why would you do a book 70 00:03:48.759 --> 00:03:53.080 about Lucky Luciano. I won't ask you that question. What 71 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:57.599 I'm going to ask you is that despite all the books, 72 00:03:58.120 --> 00:04:02.199 despite all the information well Lucky Luciano, all the focus 73 00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:08.879 on this mobster, what did you, I guess, just going 74 00:04:08.919 --> 00:04:14.759 into this, just beginning this look into this Lucky Luciano, 75 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.959 what did you Why did you think that you could 76 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:22.759 add something to the legend as it were? 77 00:04:24.160 --> 00:04:30.920 Great question? You know what, Dan, I had tried to 78 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:39.560 consume every book article on him for twenty years, just 79 00:04:39.800 --> 00:04:42.759 because I was always curious about history and organized crime 80 00:04:42.800 --> 00:04:48.360 before ever really delved into writing about it. And I 81 00:04:48.399 --> 00:04:51.439 think I was convinced at one time that like the 82 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:55.480 last Testament of a Lucky Luciano was I mean, that 83 00:04:55.639 --> 00:04:59.040 was law, that was the story. And then find out 84 00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:01.399 that you know, hey, hey, this has been debated for 85 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:04.920 you know, a couple of decades, and anyway, you know, 86 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:08.600 my publisher wanted to do this gangland mystery series with 87 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:11.360 different authors. Long story, shorty asked me, do you want 88 00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:13.759 to take part? What do you want to do? And 89 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:16.279 his daunting as it seemed, I'm like, you know what, 90 00:05:16.439 --> 00:05:23.000 I want to write my own little digestible book on Luciano. 91 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:27.319 But what can I find or prove different? You know, 92 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:30.639 that was the goal. I hope that I succeeded in it, 93 00:05:31.519 --> 00:05:34.399 but that was the original idea. 94 00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:38.800 Well, certainly, there's what you claim in the book, and 95 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:42.639 what you deliver is that there is certainly a lot 96 00:05:42.680 --> 00:05:46.160 of debate over certain things that are key to this legend, 97 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:50.800 to this the myth, and some are dispelled and some 98 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:54.839 are explained. And obviously you're going to bring that exhaustive 99 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:57.680 research that you do to the forefront here to be 100 00:05:57.680 --> 00:06:00.120 able to back up what you're saying. So this is 101 00:06:00.199 --> 00:06:03.879 just not another book about Lucky Luciano. This again, is 102 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:06.959 an important book, or you wouldn't have written it. Now 103 00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:10.639 let's go back to even the legend of how he 104 00:06:11.000 --> 00:06:14.439 came to have this nickname, but we'll go back into 105 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.360 his early childhood. What I found was fascinating. When you 106 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:22.279 talk about a criminal starting early, this guy really started early. 107 00:06:22.399 --> 00:06:27.439 So tell us about the origins, the real origins of 108 00:06:27.720 --> 00:06:29.279 Lucky Luciano. 109 00:06:30.560 --> 00:06:36.839 Well, tracking it back when he arrived with his family, 110 00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:39.240 the second half of his family to come to New York. 111 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:45.040 They were growing up in an area that was obviously poor, 112 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:49.839 part of the Lower Manhattan, right next to the predominantly 113 00:06:49.920 --> 00:06:53.920 Julish section of town. And these kids were part of 114 00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:58.519 the you know, the Five Points gang that also had 115 00:06:58.560 --> 00:07:01.600 people like al Capone. You know, all these guys grew 116 00:07:01.720 --> 00:07:06.120 up together and enough to get off on a tangent. 117 00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:09.000 But let's say say everybody has a choice in life. Okay, 118 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:10.959 I think that that's basically you don't have to be 119 00:07:11.000 --> 00:07:14.279 a criminal or whatever. But when you look at the 120 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:17.600 options that were offered, a lot of these ethnic groups 121 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:22.160 weren't many, and Luciano and some of the Jewish kids 122 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:24.959 and other Italian kids, you know, banned together and that 123 00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:27.439 was the route they took. And not everybody did that, 124 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.439 but here's some kids that did. 125 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:29.560 So. 126 00:07:29.639 --> 00:07:34.240 Yeah, they started young, you're talking. His first arrest was 127 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:39.279 in his early teens for narcotics, and people seem to 128 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:43.639 forget it wasn't all about booze back then these guys, 129 00:07:44.040 --> 00:07:49.199 I mean, narcotics was another big prohibited item. By the 130 00:07:49.279 --> 00:07:52.360 time they really started into the life of crime. 131 00:07:55.079 --> 00:07:59.240 But being growing up with Jewish kids too, he knew 132 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:04.639 he learned just I guess inherently the protection racket, as 133 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:08.079 if we're from even even from his own childhood, just 134 00:08:08.120 --> 00:08:11.319 from being young, I mean he and that later alliance 135 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:17.040 will be important as well. Tell us what his family 136 00:08:17.079 --> 00:08:20.759 life was like, what the what was his parental situation, 137 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:22.600 and tell us a little bit about that. 138 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:27.680 It's best anybody can glean from it. And and definitely 139 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:30.839 a lot of my peers have written more extensively on 140 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:38.279 him coming over and what childhood was probably like for him, 141 00:08:38.600 --> 00:08:41.840 And I think I should point this out in every researcher, 142 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:46.120 writer of history in general, not just organized crime, knows 143 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:49.960 unless you were there, We're never going to know all 144 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:55.639 the answers. Okay, weren't there, but to get a general 145 00:08:56.159 --> 00:09:01.879 idea his parents did probably weren't bad people. They were raising, 146 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:06.240 like a lot of parents, a bunch of kids. Charlie 147 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:08.799 was one of the ones to never be home, you know. 148 00:09:08.879 --> 00:09:11.200 Yet he had some legitimate jobs as a kid, but 149 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:13.600 he always seemed to tie those in with crime too, 150 00:09:15.440 --> 00:09:19.519 and yes, running into some of these Jewish kids that 151 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:23.399 already had their own theft and protection rackets, and and 152 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:26.679 what ended up happening is instead of beating the hell 153 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:30.879 out of each other for a while, they decided to 154 00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:34.759 join forces. I mean, that's really a simplified way of 155 00:09:34.759 --> 00:09:38.200 how things probably ended up. But then you're talking about 156 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:41.279 kids that basically hung out on the street twenty four 157 00:09:41.279 --> 00:09:44.320 to seven doing rackets. 158 00:09:44.399 --> 00:09:52.279 Right right now, what is the origin of Lucky Luciano's 159 00:09:53.320 --> 00:09:57.039 the moniker Lucky Luciano? And when did he actually get 160 00:09:57.080 --> 00:09:59.960 this moniker? 161 00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:06.919 There's obviously, if anybody who knows the story of Luciano, 162 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.000 a lot of people took it as he was named 163 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:16.559 Lucky because he survived being taken for a ride, which 164 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:19.440 essentially means you're picked up in a car because you're 165 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:23.639 going to be killed. He survived a ride, which was 166 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:25.799 a mystery in and of itself who actually did it. 167 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:33.279 That's where a lot of people, myself at one time included, believes, Hey, 168 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:36.480 he got nicknamed Lucky. All these guys had nicknames, you know. 169 00:10:36.840 --> 00:10:39.480 There's all it seemed like every gangster virtually had a 170 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:44.639 nickname his for surviving this ride in nineteen twenty nine. 171 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:50.120 I do not believe that I know some of my 172 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:55.399 fellow authors and researchers. Now they two I've learned from them. 173 00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:58.559 Don't believe everything just because most of us take it 174 00:10:59.240 --> 00:11:03.960 for historical fact. What I found and put in the 175 00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:10.080 book were things he said himself in the nineteen fifties. 176 00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:16.799 Two reporters he granted interviews too, And if you take that, 177 00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.399 and again, I don't want to give everything away, but 178 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.600 let's just say, if I could put anything to bed 179 00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:27.519 in this book, let's get this straight. He had the 180 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:32.080 nickname Lucky well before he was taken for a ride 181 00:11:32.200 --> 00:11:34.679 and survived. That nickname was there, and there are a 182 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:42.240 couple theories to that precursor. But you know, anyway, again, 183 00:11:42.240 --> 00:11:44.600 I don't want to give away too much, but let's 184 00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:45.519 put that one to bed. 185 00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:52.000 Now there's another. There's other little myths which I don't 186 00:11:52.000 --> 00:11:54.039 think are as important as some of the others, but 187 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:58.440 we'll deal with those. He had scars, he had a 188 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:03.519 droopy eye, Yes, what is the what was the mythology 189 00:12:03.559 --> 00:12:07.639 about where the DROOPI came from? And the scars? 190 00:12:08.519 --> 00:12:11.759 Well, the what? And this isn't given away much, but 191 00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:15.639 I mean, really, Luciano himself, the story he stuck to 192 00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:19.519 till the day he died was that he was beaten 193 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:22.559 up by cops. Okay, he was picked up on a 194 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:25.919 Manhattan street and left on a Staten Island street, beat 195 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.679 up by cops looking for Jack Legs Diamond because they 196 00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:35.120 knew he used to run with diamond. Now, the general 197 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:39.559 consensus is this beating, which was very bad, left him 198 00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:41.480 with the droopy I and the scars on the right 199 00:12:41.559 --> 00:12:45.320 side of his face and gave him that extra sinister look. However, 200 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:51.120 I started because I collect photographs. That that's really how 201 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.720 I start to write is based off these rare photos. 202 00:12:55.200 --> 00:12:59.240 I was fortunate enough to acquire a close up photo 203 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:02.639 of him ninety team twenty six and if you look 204 00:13:02.679 --> 00:13:06.279 at it, he really had a slight droop to his 205 00:13:06.480 --> 00:13:11.120 eye already that was already there. And no, it doesn't 206 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:13.600 seem like a big, big deal, but I thought it 207 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.000 was important to point out because hey, here's a little 208 00:13:16.120 --> 00:13:20.399 another mystery. Let's throw this monkey engine. He already had 209 00:13:20.399 --> 00:13:24.159 a droopy eye before he was beat up. So it's yeah, 210 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:27.600 like you said, not everything's as important to the greater story, 211 00:13:27.639 --> 00:13:30.000 but it's neat little you know, if you like those 212 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:31.279 kind of little factoids. 213 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:37.840 Yeah, now what you did mention too, And I'm glad 214 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:43.480 that you mentioned that early. One of the major fascinating 215 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:45.799 aspects of your book, too, is the sixty photos that 216 00:13:45.799 --> 00:13:49.080 are included. So tell us just a little bit about 217 00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:51.360 those photos, because you said that's where you start, and 218 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:54.480 I've never heard anyone actually make that claim, So tell 219 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:57.519 us a little bit more about that and where you 220 00:13:58.519 --> 00:14:01.440 have access to. You know, most true crime books got 221 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:03.639 thirteen fourteen pages. 222 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:09.639 So well, I don't know if it's brilliance or insanity, 223 00:14:09.720 --> 00:14:12.480 but a colleague of mine actually pointed out to me, 224 00:14:12.600 --> 00:14:15.919 He's like, I've never he said, you like to start 225 00:14:15.960 --> 00:14:20.799 with photos and then build your story. Yeah. Me and 226 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:24.759 a friend had been collecting for several years. We try 227 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:29.919 to acquire original press photos, police photos, crime scene photos. 228 00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:33.840 It's a weird hobby. And I had always been a 229 00:14:33.879 --> 00:14:37.600 writer first, but I'm very visual, So long story short, 230 00:14:38.039 --> 00:14:43.320 I started collecting photographs of Luciano murdering, Carnold Rosstein's e 231 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:48.159 all that was my thing. So I started to really 232 00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:52.840 find some what I consider gems, and I thought these 233 00:14:52.879 --> 00:14:56.240 have to go in the book, and a couple are 234 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.039 really close to my heart. But yeah, there's sixty photos 235 00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:03.919 in there between. I mean, my my buddy and myself 236 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:08.080 that have collected these and yeah, we have the originals. 237 00:15:08.120 --> 00:15:11.080 It's yeah, it's like my pride and joy too it 238 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:16.360 because I think it illustrates and accentuates what I'm writing about. Okay, 239 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.440 here see the changes in history and these people because 240 00:15:20.440 --> 00:15:24.320 it wasn't it wasn't all about Lucky Luciano. He was 241 00:15:24.360 --> 00:15:28.440 not alone wolf. He had lots of friends and places 242 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.519 and things that I wanted to capture. If that answers 243 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:34.840 the question, you know, that's but I start with photos 244 00:15:34.879 --> 00:15:35.840 and work backwards. 245 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:40.200 Well, it's a great inclusion. I mean again, I mean 246 00:15:40.279 --> 00:15:42.639 it's just because people don't have the access. But with 247 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:46.799 your access, with this incredible like you say, passion and 248 00:15:46.879 --> 00:15:50.200 fascination for this, that the reader gets this incredible bonus. 249 00:15:50.240 --> 00:15:54.559 And I think I love seeing news clippings of the time. 250 00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:57.360 I liked seeing anything from the time because and then 251 00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:00.639 it's it just drives home really what you're reading history, 252 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:03.919 and it's just incredibly interesting history. 253 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:04.320 Really. 254 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:10.039 Now, tell us a little bit more about the because 255 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.840 Lucky Luciano is credited for a lot of things, but 256 00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:18.879 he didn't get into power immediately. But tell us about 257 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:23.039 what you found that might have differed from the some 258 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.720 of the myths about his importance in terms of sort 259 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:30.799 of reorganizing I guess an organization that was already there, 260 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:34.600 but at least looking a little differently than tradition, with 261 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:38.919 that that the Sicilian origins had to be maintained. And 262 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.399 tell us about the power struggle and anything that you 263 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:46.960 found in you or in your research that kind of 264 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:49.960 went against the official story. 265 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:53.799 I think, I think first of all, for anybody that 266 00:16:54.759 --> 00:16:59.360 doesn't perhaps know a lot about this, But in New 267 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:05.680 York you had the era of these Sicilian mob bosses 268 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:09.359 and they like to run it, you know, do business 269 00:17:09.400 --> 00:17:14.359 with other Sicilians period, and Luciano, being of Sicilian blood, 270 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:20.039 was part of that. But he also carried on as 271 00:17:20.119 --> 00:17:24.920 a lot of these guys did, with other associations. Luciano, 272 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:29.319 you're talking late nineteen twenties. He was doing business with 273 00:17:29.480 --> 00:17:33.680 Arnold Rostein, you know famous, you know, Jewish financier of 274 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:39.079 illicit business. He was doing business with Irish gangsters that 275 00:17:39.240 --> 00:17:42.279 Jack Legg's Diamond was in charge of. And he was 276 00:17:42.319 --> 00:17:45.960 working with Bugsy Siegel and Meyer Lanski in their little 277 00:17:46.279 --> 00:17:50.640 bug and Meyer mob. When it came till about nineteen 278 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:55.880 thirty one, Luciano's Often they say, oh, he's the he 279 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.319 became the boss of all bosses and reorganized the mafia. 280 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:02.440 And it wasn't really like that. It was more like, 281 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:09.039 I believe he and his Italian and Jewish friends and 282 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:15.359 associates decided it's time to change the guard and work together. 283 00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:20.599 Let's take out the bad element and start something new. 284 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:23.200 I don't think they created a new thing. I really 285 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:29.440 credit Rostein with developing the unified Dangland sort of mentality. 286 00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:33.920 But Luciano, from nineteen thirty one to nineteen thirty six, 287 00:18:33.920 --> 00:18:39.279 and it's relatively a short time, was considered the top 288 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:42.319 man or one of the top men. I don't think 289 00:18:42.359 --> 00:18:44.119 he was a boss of all bosses. I don't think 290 00:18:44.160 --> 00:18:46.240 he subscribed to that. I think there were a lot 291 00:18:46.279 --> 00:18:47.559 of them that were top bosses. 292 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:57.119 Sure. Now, in terms of you have, it's amazing the 293 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:04.000 details that you have, everything from lucky tattoos and and 294 00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:06.559 everything from well, and this we'll cover this a little 295 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:08.720 bit later, because this is one of the legends as well. 296 00:19:08.720 --> 00:19:11.440 And you cover this well because this is very important. 297 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.279 You know, Luciano's actual role in helping the Allied forces 298 00:19:16.799 --> 00:19:19.160 in World War Two. So we'll talk about that just 299 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:23.119 a little bit later in context. So now tell us 300 00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:28.720 about the Broadway starlet and her and her odd marriage. 301 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:31.160 Tell us a little bit about what you uncovered there. 302 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:37.880 That's not something everyone's has written or read before, certainly no. 303 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:42.839 And you know her name, Galina orlov was her name. 304 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:46.119 She was a Russian immigrant and she changed her name 305 00:19:46.160 --> 00:19:52.119 to gay Orlova when she decided to try, you know, 306 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.880 her shot at Broadway. Like a lot of show girls, 307 00:19:56.920 --> 00:20:01.319 she frequented the same Manhattan haunts a lot of gangsters did. 308 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.920 And it is that charismatic blore to being a gangster. 309 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:09.000 And these girls were young, and you know, they liked 310 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:12.960 the stuff that these guys were telling them or offering them. 311 00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:17.640 She was an interesting one that I had read her 312 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:20.960 name mentioned in a lot of books over the years. 313 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:22.880 And I finally, you know, I want to write a 314 00:20:22.920 --> 00:20:24.640 whole chapter. I want to find out what happened to 315 00:20:24.640 --> 00:20:27.160 this woman, what was her real deal? Because she was 316 00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:30.799 very attractive. She seemed to be a very important part 317 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:35.720 of his life for a little while. So anyway, the story, 318 00:20:35.759 --> 00:20:39.519 without giving a lot away, you're talking about someone who 319 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:47.559 was almost as methodical in her goals and how to 320 00:20:47.720 --> 00:20:51.480 reach them as any gangster was. Let's leave it at that, 321 00:20:52.359 --> 00:21:00.400 from marriages of convenience to wearing walking into well, i'll 322 00:21:00.400 --> 00:21:02.480 give you a good example. She walks into a police 323 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:05.839 station when she was questioned after Luciano was arrested. She 324 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:10.240 walks in wearing four thousand dollars fur and diamonds, and 325 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:13.720 the cops were like, where did you get that? And 326 00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:18.519 she was horrified that they would ask that anyone wouldn't 327 00:21:18.559 --> 00:21:23.839 have that on. It's just the whole mentality. And then 328 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:27.920 it's a very sort of sad ending to the chapter 329 00:21:28.039 --> 00:21:30.960 in her life. I think people, I just think it 330 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:35.720 was really neat to get in and dig into this 331 00:21:35.799 --> 00:21:40.680 woman who wasn't really written about extensively before. I hope 332 00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:42.480 I tapped into something interesting. 333 00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:47.680 Yeah, you did, absolutely, Now tell us for our audience, 334 00:21:47.920 --> 00:21:52.359 because I wasn't really familiar with this at least. Wow, 335 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:55.279 it was. I guess it's been a while anyway. Certainly 336 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.200 tell us about the Last Testament of Lucky Luciano and 337 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:01.839 the Mafia's story in his own words, tell us about 338 00:22:01.839 --> 00:22:05.359 that what you found regarding this Last Testament. 339 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.240 There had been debate over that book since it came 340 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.160 out in the mid seventies, okay, whether it was legit 341 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:20.039 or not, and one of the authors had died before 342 00:22:20.119 --> 00:22:23.799 he could even argue his point. The co author argued, no, no, 343 00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:27.480 it's real, okay, And then later he said, all right, well, 344 00:22:27.480 --> 00:22:30.079 I had to make up some of the dialogue, but 345 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:34.599 it's still based on notes that were taken in interviews. 346 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:39.039 A lot of our peers and other writers you know 347 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:43.519 have talked about you really can't rely on the last test. 348 00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:48.559 It's a fascinating read, great book, but do not believe 349 00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:54.680 it is history because there are actual historical documents and 350 00:22:54.920 --> 00:22:59.960 interviews with Luciano that I don't know tell the author 351 00:23:00.039 --> 00:23:05.000 sposit some of that. And I didn't base anything in 352 00:23:05.039 --> 00:23:09.480 this book. I learned from my peers. Do not base anything, 353 00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:13.240 do not quote it, do not use it, because the 354 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:17.160 only thing factual is that Martin Gosh, who wanted to 355 00:23:17.160 --> 00:23:20.359 produce a movie on Luciano, did meet with him many 356 00:23:20.440 --> 00:23:26.400 times in Italy in the late fifties to gather information 357 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:29.039 and interviews that were supposed to go into a movie 358 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.640 that was never made, and instead went into this book. 359 00:23:32.880 --> 00:23:37.119 A leegency, right, But you don't know. 360 00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.000 No, And I think I try to be pretty clear 361 00:23:41.079 --> 00:23:42.839 in the book too. There are a lot of things 362 00:23:42.839 --> 00:23:46.119 we're never going to know the whole answer to I 363 00:23:46.279 --> 00:23:49.839 like throwing some monkey reriches in and presenting some weird 364 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:55.319 little factoids that are woven into the fabric of the 365 00:23:55.359 --> 00:23:59.599 greater story that's been talked about, you know. And even 366 00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:02.960 with Luchi Giano dying in the arms of Martin Ghost, 367 00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:06.160 who wanted to produce a movie about his life, there 368 00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:09.640 were you know, theories about, oh they did Ghost poison him? 369 00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.200 You know what what happened? And you know, it's okay, 370 00:24:13.240 --> 00:24:15.680 we're not really going to know, but I think I 371 00:24:15.720 --> 00:24:19.279 think there's enough evidence to lead us in the right direction, 372 00:24:19.359 --> 00:24:20.599 and I try to put it in the book. 373 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:25.640 Well, tell us a little bit more about that without 374 00:24:25.680 --> 00:24:28.599 giving it away, because there's the term I had never 375 00:24:28.640 --> 00:24:33.920 heard before, is the Borgia cocktail. I guess that's exclusive 376 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:36.599 to a certain country, no doubt. But tell us a 377 00:24:36.599 --> 00:24:41.119 little bit more about this, because this this character that 378 00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:45.319 you spoke of, Martin Ghosh, Yes, tell us a little 379 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:46.920 bit more about this anyway. 380 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:51.160 Okay, Yeah, And there are people that probably aren't aware 381 00:24:51.160 --> 00:24:54.759 of this. Martin Ghost was uh, I don't want to 382 00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.480 say small time producer, but he had a couple things 383 00:24:57.559 --> 00:25:02.079 under his belt in the f fifties, an Avin Costello movie, 384 00:25:02.960 --> 00:25:08.799 a couple of shorts. He was actually introduced to Luciano 385 00:25:09.079 --> 00:25:12.559 through another man that I found by the name He 386 00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:15.440 went by the name of Charles Duke, who wanted to 387 00:25:15.559 --> 00:25:18.240 produce a movie and in fact not to get off 388 00:25:18.359 --> 00:25:22.279 on something. But there were there was talk of producing 389 00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:25.440 a movie on Luciano's life in the early fifties that 390 00:25:26.359 --> 00:25:30.720 Luciano himself tried to get done way before movie talk 391 00:25:30.880 --> 00:25:35.200 with Martin Geosch. Anyway, Ghost kept going to Italy to 392 00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:39.240 meet with Luciano, took handwritten notes they were going to 393 00:25:39.319 --> 00:25:44.559 do this movie. Got received threat allegedly from American mafia, staying, 394 00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:48.920 you know, don't you do this. Luciano said, hey, you 395 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:50.960 can do it, but not till ten years after I 396 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:55.319 die write a book. So that's and one of the 397 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:58.119 last the last eating the two had was in an 398 00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:02.200 airport in Naples and Luciano was not feeling well that day. 399 00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:06.279 He had just been interrogated on some drug suspicion charges 400 00:26:06.720 --> 00:26:09.440 and he died of a heart attack in Martin Ghost's 401 00:26:09.559 --> 00:26:13.759