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That's Chumbuck 51 00:01:58.640 --> 00:02:01.040 Casino dot com of Wherever. 52 00:02:01.239 --> 00:02:12.159 By Lost Eater Magnition's eighteen class, you. 53 00:02:12.240 --> 00:02:15.960 Are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers 54 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:19.000 in true crime history and the authors that have written 55 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:22.719 about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer. 56 00:02:22.919 --> 00:02:24.800 The Nightstalker BTK. 57 00:02:25.680 --> 00:02:29.479 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 58 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:33.639 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 59 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:37.199 your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 60 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:51.759 Just days before Kirk Cobain's body was discovered on April eighth, 61 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:56.560 nineteen ninety four, Courtney Love hired private investigator Tom Grant 62 00:02:56.800 --> 00:03:00.840 to locate him in the mysterious death of Cobain. Tom 63 00:03:00.919 --> 00:03:04.919 Grant takes readers behind the scenes of the investigation. Here 64 00:03:04.919 --> 00:03:07.039 you can read a day by day account of Grant's 65 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:09.919 investigation and learn about the evidence for murder regarding Kurt 66 00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:14.400 Cobain's death. There are many new details containing the mysterious 67 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:18.240 death of Kirk Combain, including new transcripts of recorded telephone 68 00:03:18.280 --> 00:03:20.960 conversations with Courtney Love and others, as well as an 69 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:25.240 updated list of persons of interest in the crime In 70 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:27.199 this book, you will get a clear picture of why 71 00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:30.240 Kirk Cobain was killed and who is responsible for his death. 72 00:03:31.520 --> 00:03:36.000 The book also contains a compelling account of Tom Grant's 73 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:39.120 struggles to blow the whistle on the botched investigation into 74 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.520 Cobain's death. Did Kurt Cobain really commit suicide or was 75 00:03:43.599 --> 00:03:46.639 he murdered? You won't be able to honestly answer that 76 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:49.759 question until you read and hear about the mysterious death 77 00:03:49.919 --> 00:03:54.759 of Kurt Cobain. Suicide or murder? You decide with my 78 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.520 special guest, Matthew Richer. Welcome to the program, and thank 79 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:02.680 you for a Greenness interview to Richard, thank you for 80 00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:08.360 having me, Thank you very much, very very interesting story. Indeed, 81 00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:12.560 being a big music fan, this was an eye opener. 82 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:18.240 So let's first off, let's explain this is Grant, Tom 83 00:04:18.319 --> 00:04:21.800 Grant's story. But tell us how you came to be 84 00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:24.319 able to write this book before I ask you any 85 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:27.639 of the questions regarding this story. 86 00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.399 Well, one of the Tom I've known Tom for a 87 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:35.360 number of years, and the other books have been written 88 00:04:35.879 --> 00:04:38.839 about the case, and other articles have written about the case, 89 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:43.079 but typically they contained a lot of errors and a 90 00:04:43.160 --> 00:04:48.399 few false theories and Tom. When Tom was speaking out 91 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:50.720 about this case, he was actually still a full time 92 00:04:50.800 --> 00:04:54.120 private investigator. He had been working on other cases and 93 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:59.680 he couldn't vote that much time to this story. But 94 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:05.639 you know, a few days back, Tom retired and he 95 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:07.759 decided he was going to devote more time to this 96 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:11.879 and he contacted me. He and I discussed it, and 97 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:17.120 we decided to write a book together. And what we wanted, 98 00:05:17.199 --> 00:05:20.879 and certainly what I wanted, was I thought it would 99 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:23.120 be more effective for Tom to just tell a story 100 00:05:24.199 --> 00:05:28.920 from his first person perspective, you know, instead of hearing 101 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.560 a story secondhand, which is how it sounded in every 102 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.279 other treatment of the story. We wanted Tom to get 103 00:05:34.720 --> 00:05:37.399 to tell a story from his perspective. We wanted to 104 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:40.720 take readers behind the scenes and portray the story from 105 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.360 the investigator's perspective. And you also, and you might say, 106 00:05:44.399 --> 00:05:48.079 we also tell the story or tempt tell a story 107 00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:50.439 from the perspective of the main suspect called the Love. 108 00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:54.439 Tom spent a lot of time with Courtney and recorded, 109 00:05:54.920 --> 00:05:58.040 as you know, we can get into this most of 110 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:02.279 the conversations he had with her during nineteen ninety four 111 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:05.079 and up until January nineteen ninety five. I think Tom 112 00:06:05.160 --> 00:06:08.000 has over thirty hours of record of conversations with her, 113 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:11.079 so we know a lot about our thoughts and activities 114 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:15.759 during nineteen ninety four, and we were able to depict her, 115 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.920 her activities and her motives I think, pretty compilingly and 116 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:21.680 pretty accurately in the book. 117 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:32.240 Now you introduced basically the very interesting and dogged nature 118 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:37.879 private Investigator Tom Grant. So tell us about the where 119 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:41.639 we are introduced to where Tom Grant is first in 120 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:44.800 contact with Courtney Love. Tell us about that scene. 121 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:52.920 Well, that's an interesting scene. It's Tom was representing. He 122 00:06:53.000 --> 00:06:56.800 had a client who was a prostitute and she was 123 00:06:56.879 --> 00:06:59.759 trying to get out of the prostitution business and she 124 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:01.639 had to go and meet her madam. She was a 125 00:07:01.839 --> 00:07:04.600 high priced call girl trying to get out of to 126 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:09.600 break free er from madam. And Tom a companied her 127 00:07:09.720 --> 00:07:11.920 to the Beverly Hills Peninsul Hotel, which is a very 128 00:07:12.000 --> 00:07:16.920 posh hotel, and he went with her that day to 129 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:21.759 sort of provide security so that this prostitute could break 130 00:07:21.800 --> 00:07:30.319 with her madam. And you know, after that appointment that morning, 131 00:07:30.399 --> 00:07:33.040 he went back to his office and it was Easter Sunday. 132 00:07:33.600 --> 00:07:35.959 This is April third, nineteen ninety four, and he just 133 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:42.480 wasn't expecting any calls at all, but instead the phone 134 00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:45.759 rang and it was this woman answer the phone. She said, 135 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:48.079 I'm Courtney Love and I need you to find out 136 00:07:48.120 --> 00:07:52.439 who's using my husband's stolen credit card. And he didn't 137 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:54.439 know who Courtney Love was, and he didn't know who 138 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:57.199 Kurt Cobain was, but he had an investigator, a young 139 00:07:57.240 --> 00:08:01.600 investigator there who did know. And uh so he said, okay, 140 00:08:01.720 --> 00:08:04.279 you know, I'll be over in a couple of hours. 141 00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:06.920 And it turns out there Courtney Love was slipping through 142 00:08:06.920 --> 00:08:09.720 the yellow Pages that day trying to find frantically trying 143 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:13.720 to find a private investigator, and she saw Tom Grant's 144 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:15.279 ad just simply called him. 145 00:08:19.480 --> 00:08:20.040 Now what is that. 146 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:21.360 That's how the whole case started. 147 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:26.399 Yeah, so when they when he does meet, what is 148 00:08:26.759 --> 00:08:32.480 his first impression? And so Courtney Love's appearance and his 149 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:39.759 first his first impression of the meeting, well. 150 00:08:40.879 --> 00:08:43.759 She was basically when she answered the door, she was 151 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:47.200 pretty much, uh, you know, there were a very nice 152 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:49.120 hotel suite, but there are a bunch of groups in there. 153 00:08:49.720 --> 00:08:55.519 Can I use four letter words in the show all right, Well, 154 00:08:56.039 --> 00:08:59.200 she answered the door, and there's a lot of you. 155 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:01.320 There are a lot of people in the room with 156 00:09:01.399 --> 00:09:06.240 a bunch of hangers on, and she's wearing a very 157 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:10.279 sheer nightgown. Tom said, she was effectively naked. And she 158 00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:14.240 answered the door and she said, are you the private investigator? 159 00:09:14.759 --> 00:09:17.840 And he said yeah. And she said, if you leak 160 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:20.840 any any of this depressed, I'll sue the f out 161 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:24.399 of you. And so Tom said, old, you know, that 162 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:27.919 was quite an impression. And then she when she sat 163 00:09:28.039 --> 00:09:32.200 down to talk to him, he said, okay, what's this 164 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:34.480 about your husband's stolen credit card? And she sort of 165 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:37.919 forgot what he was talking about, and he said, oh, no, 166 00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:41.399 that credit card wasn't stolen. I actually canceled it. And 167 00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:45.720 so that was you know, right away, she told Tom 168 00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.039 a lie. The very basis for hiring her turned out 169 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:52.960 to be complete lie, and Tom had a feeling that 170 00:09:53.080 --> 00:09:55.200 it wasn't going to be the last and so they 171 00:09:55.279 --> 00:09:58.159 had this very unusual, strange encounter. There were all these 172 00:09:58.200 --> 00:09:59.919 people in the room that were clearly doing a lot 173 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:03.919 of drugs, and got in a huge fight with her 174 00:10:04.279 --> 00:10:08.519 lead guitarist in the in the room, and then at 175 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:11.919 some point during this meeting, she told Tom that Kurt 176 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:17.320 Cobain was suicidal, and but then she said, you know, 177 00:10:17.399 --> 00:10:19.320 then she would switch back and say, oh, actually, you know, 178 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:21.799 Kurt wants a divorce, and then she would say, oh, no, 179 00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:24.960 he's suicidal. And she kept switching and vacillating back and 180 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:29.720 forth between these two possibilities, and Tom left the room 181 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:31.639 and said, okay, I'll you know, I'll try to find 182 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:35.000 out where the credit card is ben used, will try 183 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:39.519 to locate your husband, who's, you know, apparently missing. And 184 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:41.679 as soon as he left the room got on the elevator, 185 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:45.120 he said to his when his investigator, you know, something's 186 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:47.919 wrong here. We're going to record every conversation we have 187 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:50.840 in this case. And that's what Tom did. He turned 188 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:55.240 on his recorder and he recorded everything. One thing that 189 00:10:55.320 --> 00:10:57.840 Courtney Love did not know is that a private investigator, 190 00:10:58.000 --> 00:11:01.279 a good private investigator, actually all he has audio visual 191 00:11:01.320 --> 00:11:05.759 equipment on him at all times. They always because they 192 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:09.600 have to document everything. So Tom documented everything very well 193 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:14.919 and recorded it. She had no idea he was recording it, 194 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:17.080 but it's a very well documented case. 195 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.879 She might not have known that he's obliged to go 196 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.679 to the police if he were to uncover any evidence. 197 00:11:27.000 --> 00:11:29.399 She did not know that, and he did. He was 198 00:11:29.480 --> 00:11:31.159 obliged and he did go to the police, but they 199 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:32.840 just didn't they didn't seem interested. 200 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:38.679 Yeah, Now, what we kind of skipped over is that 201 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:41.879 the other part of the first impression is that in 202 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:46.240 Tom Grant's experience, not only with the prostitute, but just 203 00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:51.399 on just his experience as a police officer and then 204 00:11:51.480 --> 00:11:55.120 now a private investigator, what did he notice in terms 205 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:58.759 of the drug use in that room in his estimation. 206 00:11:59.720 --> 00:12:02.840 Well, he noticed that he when he was a when 207 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:06.840 Tom was a private investigator, rather when Tom was a 208 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:09.759 police officer in Los Angeles, he would work for the 209 00:12:09.919 --> 00:12:12.679 Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. He had arrested a lot 210 00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:17.240 of prostitutes and a lot of other drug users. And 211 00:12:17.559 --> 00:12:24.600 they often there when people take heroin, their pupils are pinned, 212 00:12:24.799 --> 00:12:28.600 they shrink, and also they form a they have a 213 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:31.720 white foam on their lips from them fetamines from heroin. 214 00:12:32.320 --> 00:12:34.759 And Courtney had those pin pupils and she had that 215 00:12:34.879 --> 00:12:37.480 white phone on my lips, and so did everyone else 216 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:42.240 in the room. And at one point some woman walked 217 00:12:42.279 --> 00:12:44.879 by her wearing just a nightgown, and Courtney just looked 218 00:12:44.879 --> 00:12:46.720 at Tom and slapped around the behind and said, oh, 219 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:49.679 that's my dealer. So they really weren't hiding the fact 220 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:52.080 that they were all in this room doing drugs. Now, 221 00:12:52.159 --> 00:12:54.200 Courtney told the press, of course, that they were in 222 00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:58.200 this room, that Courtney was alone in the hotel suite 223 00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:04.840 undergoing a physician assisted drug detox. But that was completely false. 224 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:06.960 It was complete fast she was. She was in there 225 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:08.600 with her friends and they were all doing drugs. 226 00:13:12.360 --> 00:13:16.440 Now, with the conversations she Tom Grant has with Courtney, 227 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:20.480 because these are obviously extensive, and again you say that she's, 228 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:28.000 you know, very aggressive and also says things he's very emotional, 229 00:13:28.080 --> 00:13:30.600 we'll say, to say the least, and well, you provide 230 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:34.279 a lot of examples. But what does she mention about 231 00:13:34.799 --> 00:13:39.480 divorce and assets and pre nup. What was the information 232 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:41.960 that she imparted to him, even if it were in 233 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:45.080 pieces about that, Well. 234 00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:47.480 She was saying that they she told him right away 235 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:52.720 that they had a prenuptial agreement, and and she kept saying, 236 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:55.440 you know, if we get a divorce, my name is 237 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:58.360 on all the houses and all the assets. That doesn't 238 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:02.679 mean anything. If we get into court, but so she 239 00:14:02.799 --> 00:14:05.440 had a prenuptial agreement if they were to get a divorce, 240 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.000 get half of his present estate, but of course if 241 00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:11.639 he were to commit suicide, she would get all of it. Now. 242 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:18.600 Another thing that was another factor was her new album 243 00:14:19.159 --> 00:14:21.679 Lived Through. This was also coming out in the following week, 244 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:26.679 but that album release was going to be accompanied by 245 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:29.960 some very damaging public revelations. One of them was Kirk 246 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:32.519 Cobain was going to divorce her. The biggest the biggest 247 00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:36.600 rocks down in the world was divorcing Curti Courting and Nirvana, 248 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:38.679 the hottest band in the world, was breaking up, and 249 00:14:38.799 --> 00:14:42.639 Courtney was a significant factor in the demise. In my suspicion, 250 00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:45.159 which I didn't really say too much in the book, 251 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:49.159 but it is there, is that her fear was that 252 00:14:49.759 --> 00:14:52.840 she never said this exactly to Tom, but her fear 253 00:14:53.080 --> 00:14:56.039 probably was that word was going to get out eventually 254 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.720 that Kurt had actually written and composed the album Lived Through. 255 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:04.639 She has always denied that fact. She says that Kurt 256 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:07.559 you know, was never in the studio or never had 257 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.440 contributing to the album, but she later admitted that in fact, 258 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:13.320 he was in the studio. You can actually hear his 259 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:16.960 voice singing in the background in several of the tracks. 260 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:23.360 So remember, Courtney Love was nearly thirty years old in 261 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.679 April nineteen ninety four. That's very old for an aspiring musician, 262 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:28.000 especially a woman. 263 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:28.320 And. 264 00:15:29.960 --> 00:15:33.759 Her album, her big chance for fame, her big chance 265 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:37.000 to break into rockstardom, just about to come out, and 266 00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:40.840 it was just about to fall apop because she and 267 00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:44.399 Kurt were breaking up. So the stakes were very high 268 00:15:44.440 --> 00:15:47.679 for her and she was not going to let this 269 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:49.159 opportunity slip from her hands. 270 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:57.879 Let's go back to where Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love 271 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.480 were in terms of the relationship. They had a child 272 00:16:01.600 --> 00:16:05.519 named Francis. So tell us how long they had been together, 273 00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:11.720 and before we talked about a couple, other things revolved 274 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:14.279 Courtney Love and Kirklebin. 275 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.080 Well, they'd actually before kirkle means that they had actually 276 00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:22.639 known each other for less than three years. They've been 277 00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:26.440 married for just over two years and been a couple 278 00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:30.840 for about two and a half. They first became a 279 00:16:30.879 --> 00:16:38.519 couple in October of ninety one and pregnant right away, 280 00:16:38.559 --> 00:16:41.720 and they had a you know, sort of a quick 281 00:16:41.799 --> 00:16:45.639 wedding and they were married just a little over two years, 282 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:51.399 so they did not know each other even very long. So, 283 00:16:53.519 --> 00:16:57.039 you know, she married him right just as Nirvana was 284 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:01.440 really taking off and started dating and then so they 285 00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:05.119 didn't really have a long relationship. But when they when 286 00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:09.440 they got married, their management made Kurt Cobain get a 287 00:17:09.519 --> 00:17:13.759 particular Kurt's manager, John Silver made Kirk get a pre 288 00:17:13.839 --> 00:17:16.680 natural agreement. Now, Courtney has always told people that it 289 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:19.759 was actually her idea to get the prenatural agreement. That's 290 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:23.799 not true. Uh. And and then i know, the night 291 00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:26.240 before she got married, she met the music journalist Gina 292 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:31.079 Arnold and she told Gina Arnold. Donold said, Courtney, what 293 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.599 do you congratulations? What's what is Kirk going to get 294 00:17:34.599 --> 00:17:36.599 your for a wedding present? And Courtney looked at her 295 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:39.880 and said, I'm gonna get my husband's ATM card. So 296 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:43.400 that was pretty much their relationship as soon as they 297 00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:47.960 got married immediately. Kurt Cobain was not a very strong personality. 298 00:17:48.359 --> 00:17:53.920 He was, you know, kind of a he was, you know, 299 00:17:54.960 --> 00:17:58.200 he was five seven, one hundred and twenty pounds. He was, 300 00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:02.759 you know, very unassertive. He didn't like confrontation. He could 301 00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:06.640 be pushed around very easily. He had a strong presence 302 00:18:07.000 --> 00:18:10.079 on stage, but not off stage. And Courtney has a 303 00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:12.680 very dominating personality, and she was able to push him 304 00:18:12.680 --> 00:18:15.480 around and take advantage of him quite easily. And almost 305 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:17.480 as soon as they got married, she took over his 306 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:24.039 finances completely. She was renting private jets, she was taking 307 00:18:24.160 --> 00:18:27.680 limousines everywhere. Cony does not know how to drive, and 308 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:32.079 really just running up his credit cards and buying Joel 309 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:35.079 and buying all kinds of things, and he was really 310 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:36.440 powerless to do anything about it. 311 00:18:39.319 --> 00:18:42.960 Now, you're chronicle in the book about to explain how 312 00:18:43.079 --> 00:18:48.960 this could possibly be in that Courtney Love seems to 313 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:52.640 be able to as a musician, but even more importantly, 314 00:18:52.680 --> 00:18:55.359 she seems to be able to be able to spot talent. 315 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.440 So there's other characters, famous and less famous that are 316 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:04.079 previous to her meeting up with co band. It sort 317 00:19:04.079 --> 00:19:08.160 of explained, we'll say her motivation and that I for talent. 318 00:19:08.279 --> 00:19:10.759 So tell us a little bit about her background in 319 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:13.400 that Seattle scene and the music scene itself. 320 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.839 Well, she started out really in the Portland music scene, 321 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:22.599 which is sort of, you know, very complimentary to the 322 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:26.519 Seattle based scene. And when she was a teenager, according 323 00:19:26.519 --> 00:19:29.480 to Courtney, she saw Cheap Trick playing concert and she 324 00:19:29.599 --> 00:19:34.119 managed to scam a backstage past and she watched. 325 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:34.160 You know. 326 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.720 According to Courtney, when she saw the power that the 327 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:42.599 band had over the audience, she decided that this was 328 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:44.519 what she wanted to be. This was her ultimate goal 329 00:19:44.559 --> 00:19:48.440 in life, to become a rock star. And she started 330 00:19:48.480 --> 00:19:51.519 out by becoming a rock and roll coopie. She went 331 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:55.279 she inherited some money from her grandmother and she went 332 00:19:55.359 --> 00:20:00.599 over to Britain, to Liverpool and to New York City 333 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:04.359 and she traveled a lot as a professional groupie, and 334 00:20:04.880 --> 00:20:09.319 she began, according to Courtney, she began performing you know, 335 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:12.279 sex acts on different members of the band, even as 336 00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:16.000 a young teenager, in order to get the attention of 337 00:20:16.119 --> 00:20:21.759 the lead singer. And terrible as it was, Courtney did 338 00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.680 begin to meet people and get to know people in 339 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.720 the music business. And that's how she did it. She 340 00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:30.759 became a professional groupie. She was a very assertive, very 341 00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:33.240 outspoken groupie, but that's what she did and that was 342 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:37.079 her version of climbing the ladder. So by the time 343 00:20:39.079 --> 00:20:43.680 you know, she got into her twenties, she targeted first 344 00:20:43.720 --> 00:20:47.759 a musician named roz resback in Portland, who was the 345 00:20:47.799 --> 00:20:50.480 head of a band called Peter Sheep, but you know, 346 00:20:50.640 --> 00:20:53.279 his career didn't take off. And then so she moved 347 00:20:53.319 --> 00:20:56.079 on to a man named James Morland who had a 348 00:20:56.160 --> 00:20:59.400 band in Los Angeles, and she married him briefly. Band 349 00:20:59.440 --> 00:21:02.880 didn't take off either, And then she targeted Billy Corgan, 350 00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:05.759 which was a very success, you know, before he became famous. 351 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:09.759 And that was a pretty smart move, pretty shrewd of 352 00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.480 her to target a man that talented. And she was 353 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:15.599 with Billy Corgan for quite a while until she saw 354 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:20.119 Kirk Cobain perform live. And when she saw Kirk Bring 355 00:21:20.200 --> 00:21:25.279 and Nirvana perform live, she actually borrowed money from her attorney, 356 00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:29.240 Rosemary Carroll, and she took her flight to Chicago and 357 00:21:29.960 --> 00:21:35.440 she attended a Nirvana show and then she betted Kirk 358 00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:38.279 Cobain after the show, and she was pregnant within a 359 00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:41.720 couple of weeks. That's pretty much how she landed him. 360 00:21:44.160 --> 00:21:46.480 Interesting and she the. 361 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:52.240 Sorry, go ahead, no, I'm just saying she's a very strong, 362 00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:55.079 litted person. I don't know if I've ever accounted anyone 363 00:21:56.119 --> 00:21:58.559 with a will as strong as Courtney Love. And you 364 00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:01.680 can say what you want about her it's it's it's 365 00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:03.400 one of her most powerful qualities. 366 00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:10.559 Now you're talking about what you know about this case, 367 00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:13.319 but it's a little bit different about Tom Grant. When 368 00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:15.920 Tom Grant got involved in this case, he didn't know 369 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:19.960 anything about Nirvana or who Kurt Cobain or anybody was, did. 370 00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:22.319 He right now? And that's I think I make that 371 00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:26.319 Claire in the book when when when the book begins, 372 00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:31.119 Tom doesn't know anything about either of them. Tom knew criminals, though, 373 00:22:31.759 --> 00:22:35.319 and he didn't know He knew that Courtney was up 374 00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.640 to something, and he knew she was up to something bad. 375 00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:42.359 But he he took the position of Okay, well, if 376 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:46.519 this man Kirk Cobain really is he might be suicidal. 377 00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:49.119 Maybe he's not suicidal, but I'm not going to take 378 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:51.720 any chances. So Tom said, he was, you know, I'm 379 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:54.359 going to record everything. I'm going to document everything because 380 00:22:54.359 --> 00:22:56.680 i know something is going on here. But I'm going 381 00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:59.319 to go to Seattle to search for Kirk Cobain because 382 00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:02.920 I'm a man's life is at stake, and so that's 383 00:23:03.000 --> 00:23:08.759 what he did. But he was when Tom, he only 384 00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:10.960 operates in the mode of an investigator, and that's I 385 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:13.680 think what I tried to show in the book. So 386 00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:19.880 he the evidence as it appears as Tom encounters it 387 00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:27.160 right up until Kirk Cobain dies. Now after after after 388 00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:34.160 kirk Cobain's death, Tom goes back to where he gets 389 00:23:34.200 --> 00:23:37.680 a phone call from Kurt Cobain and Courtney loves attorney 390 00:23:37.799 --> 00:23:41.759 Rosemary Carol. And it was Rosemary Carol who first told 391 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:47.440 him Kirk Cobain was not suicidal and she believed ximant suicide. 392 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:54.279 So when Tom got that confirmation from someone in there 393 00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:56.880 in a circle, someone who wasn't someone who was bright, 394 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:01.960 and it wasn't a musician someone she was a very 395 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:05.039 shrewd woman who was Mary Carroll. And when Tom got 396 00:24:05.119 --> 00:24:10.319 back confirmations, he realized he started suspecting, Okay, maybe this 397 00:24:10.480 --> 00:24:12.359 wasn't a mother after all, or not a suicide. 398 00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:18.640 With that information too, he being an investig private investigator 399 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:21.960 and a police officer. When he had that first encounter, 400 00:24:22.079 --> 00:24:24.799 there was people like and you can correct me, well, 401 00:24:24.839 --> 00:24:27.680