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Speaker 5: Are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers
Speaker 5: in true crime history and the authors that have written
Speaker 5: about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer.
Speaker 6: The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
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Speaker 5: your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Just days before Kirk Cobain's body was discovered on April eighth,
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety four, Courtney Love hired private investigator Tom Grant
Speaker 6: to locate him in the mysterious death of Cobain. Tom
Speaker 6: Grant takes readers behind the scenes of the investigation. Here
Speaker 6: you can read a day by day account of Grant's
Speaker 6: investigation and learn about the evidence for murder regarding Kurt
Speaker 6: Cobain's death. There are many new details containing the mysterious
Speaker 6: death of Kirk Combain, including new transcripts of recorded telephone
Speaker 6: conversations with Courtney Love and others, as well as an
Speaker 6: updated list of persons of interest in the crime In
Speaker 6: this book, you will get a clear picture of why
Speaker 6: Kirk Cobain was killed and who is responsible for his death.
Speaker 6: The book also contains a compelling account of Tom Grant's
Speaker 6: struggles to blow the whistle on the botched investigation into
Speaker 6: Cobain's death. Did Kurt Cobain really commit suicide or was
Speaker 6: he murdered? You won't be able to honestly answer that
Speaker 6: question until you read and hear about the mysterious death
Speaker 6: of Kurt Cobain. Suicide or murder? You decide with my
Speaker 6: special guest, Matthew Richer. Welcome to the program, and thank
Speaker 6: you for a Greenness interview to Richard, thank you for
Speaker 6: having me, Thank you very much, very very interesting story. Indeed,
Speaker 6: being a big music fan, this was an eye opener.
Speaker 6: So let's first off, let's explain this is Grant, Tom
Speaker 6: Grant's story. But tell us how you came to be
Speaker 6: able to write this book before I ask you any
Speaker 6: of the questions regarding this story.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the Tom I've known Tom for a
Speaker 2: number of years, and the other books have been written
Speaker 2: about the case, and other articles have written about the case,
Speaker 2: but typically they contained a lot of errors and a
Speaker 2: few false theories and Tom. When Tom was speaking out
Speaker 2: about this case, he was actually still a full time
Speaker 2: private investigator. He had been working on other cases and
Speaker 2: he couldn't vote that much time to this story. But
Speaker 2: you know, a few days back, Tom retired and he
Speaker 2: decided he was going to devote more time to this
Speaker 2: and he contacted me. He and I discussed it, and
Speaker 2: we decided to write a book together. And what we wanted,
Speaker 2: and certainly what I wanted, was I thought it would
Speaker 2: be more effective for Tom to just tell a story
Speaker 2: from his first person perspective, you know, instead of hearing
Speaker 2: a story secondhand, which is how it sounded in every
Speaker 2: other treatment of the story. We wanted Tom to get
Speaker 2: to tell a story from his perspective. We wanted to
Speaker 2: take readers behind the scenes and portray the story from
Speaker 2: the investigator's perspective. And you also, and you might say,
Speaker 2: we also tell the story or tempt tell a story
Speaker 2: from the perspective of the main suspect called the Love.
Speaker 2: Tom spent a lot of time with Courtney and recorded,
Speaker 2: as you know, we can get into this most of
Speaker 2: the conversations he had with her during nineteen ninety four
Speaker 2: and up until January nineteen ninety five. I think Tom
Speaker 2: has over thirty hours of record of conversations with her,
Speaker 2: so we know a lot about our thoughts and activities
Speaker 2: during nineteen ninety four, and we were able to depict her,
Speaker 2: her activities and her motives I think, pretty compilingly and
Speaker 2: pretty accurately in the book.
Speaker 6: Now you introduced basically the very interesting and dogged nature
Speaker 6: private Investigator Tom Grant. So tell us about the where
Speaker 6: we are introduced to where Tom Grant is first in
Speaker 6: contact with Courtney Love. Tell us about that scene.
Speaker 2: Well, that's an interesting scene. It's Tom was representing. He
Speaker 2: had a client who was a prostitute and she was
Speaker 2: trying to get out of the prostitution business and she
Speaker 2: had to go and meet her madam. She was a
Speaker 2: high priced call girl trying to get out of to
Speaker 2: break free er from madam. And Tom a companied her
Speaker 2: to the Beverly Hills Peninsul Hotel, which is a very
Speaker 2: posh hotel, and he went with her that day to
Speaker 2: sort of provide security so that this prostitute could break
Speaker 2: with her madam. And you know, after that appointment that morning,
Speaker 2: he went back to his office and it was Easter Sunday.
Speaker 2: This is April third, nineteen ninety four, and he just
Speaker 2: wasn't expecting any calls at all, but instead the phone
Speaker 2: rang and it was this woman answer the phone. She said,
Speaker 2: I'm Courtney Love and I need you to find out
Speaker 2: who's using my husband's stolen credit card. And he didn't
Speaker 2: know who Courtney Love was, and he didn't know who
Speaker 2: Kurt Cobain was, but he had an investigator, a young
Speaker 2: investigator there who did know. And uh so he said, okay,
Speaker 2: you know, I'll be over in a couple of hours.
Speaker 2: And it turns out there Courtney Love was slipping through
Speaker 2: the yellow Pages that day trying to find frantically trying
Speaker 2: to find a private investigator, and she saw Tom Grant's
Speaker 2: ad just simply called him.
Speaker 6: Now what is that.
Speaker 2: That's how the whole case started.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so when they when he does meet, what is
Speaker 6: his first impression? And so Courtney Love's appearance and his
Speaker 6: first his first impression of the meeting, well.
Speaker 2: She was basically when she answered the door, she was
Speaker 2: pretty much, uh, you know, there were a very nice
Speaker 2: hotel suite, but there are a bunch of groups in there.
Speaker 2: Can I use four letter words in the show all right, Well,
Speaker 2: she answered the door, and there's a lot of you.
Speaker 2: There are a lot of people in the room with
Speaker 2: a bunch of hangers on, and she's wearing a very
Speaker 2: sheer nightgown. Tom said, she was effectively naked. And she
Speaker 2: answered the door and she said, are you the private investigator?
Speaker 2: And he said yeah. And she said, if you leak
Speaker 2: any any of this depressed, I'll sue the f out
Speaker 2: of you. And so Tom said, old, you know, that
Speaker 2: was quite an impression. And then she when she sat
Speaker 2: down to talk to him, he said, okay, what's this
Speaker 2: about your husband's stolen credit card? And she sort of
Speaker 2: forgot what he was talking about, and he said, oh, no,
Speaker 2: that credit card wasn't stolen. I actually canceled it. And
Speaker 2: so that was you know, right away, she told Tom
Speaker 2: a lie. The very basis for hiring her turned out
Speaker 2: to be complete lie, and Tom had a feeling that
Speaker 2: it wasn't going to be the last and so they
Speaker 2: had this very unusual, strange encounter. There were all these
Speaker 2: people in the room that were clearly doing a lot
Speaker 2: of drugs, and got in a huge fight with her
Speaker 2: lead guitarist in the in the room, and then at
Speaker 2: some point during this meeting, she told Tom that Kurt
Speaker 2: Cobain was suicidal, and but then she said, you know,
Speaker 2: then she would switch back and say, oh, actually, you know,
Speaker 2: Kurt wants a divorce, and then she would say, oh, no,
Speaker 2: he's suicidal. And she kept switching and vacillating back and
Speaker 2: forth between these two possibilities, and Tom left the room
Speaker 2: and said, okay, I'll you know, I'll try to find
Speaker 2: out where the credit card is ben used, will try
Speaker 2: to locate your husband, who's, you know, apparently missing. And
Speaker 2: as soon as he left the room got on the elevator,
Speaker 2: he said to his when his investigator, you know, something's
Speaker 2: wrong here. We're going to record every conversation we have
Speaker 2: in this case. And that's what Tom did. He turned
Speaker 2: on his recorder and he recorded everything. One thing that
Speaker 2: Courtney Love did not know is that a private investigator,
Speaker 2: a good private investigator, actually all he has audio visual
Speaker 2: equipment on him at all times. They always because they
Speaker 2: have to document everything. So Tom documented everything very well
Speaker 2: and recorded it. She had no idea he was recording it,
Speaker 2: but it's a very well documented case.
Speaker 6: She might not have known that he's obliged to go
Speaker 6: to the police if he were to uncover any evidence.
Speaker 2: She did not know that, and he did. He was
Speaker 2: obliged and he did go to the police, but they
Speaker 2: just didn't they didn't seem interested.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Now, what we kind of skipped over is that
Speaker 6: the other part of the first impression is that in
Speaker 6: Tom Grant's experience, not only with the prostitute, but just
Speaker 6: on just his experience as a police officer and then
Speaker 6: now a private investigator, what did he notice in terms
Speaker 6: of the drug use in that room in his estimation.
Speaker 2: Well, he noticed that he when he was a when
Speaker 2: Tom was a private investigator, rather when Tom was a
Speaker 2: police officer in Los Angeles, he would work for the
Speaker 2: Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department. He had arrested a lot
Speaker 2: of prostitutes and a lot of other drug users. And
Speaker 2: they often there when people take heroin, their pupils are pinned,
Speaker 2: they shrink, and also they form a they have a
Speaker 2: white foam on their lips from them fetamines from heroin.
Speaker 2: And Courtney had those pin pupils and she had that
Speaker 2: white phone on my lips, and so did everyone else
Speaker 2: in the room. And at one point some woman walked
Speaker 2: by her wearing just a nightgown, and Courtney just looked
Speaker 2: at Tom and slapped around the behind and said, oh,
Speaker 2: that's my dealer. So they really weren't hiding the fact
Speaker 2: that they were all in this room doing drugs. Now,
Speaker 2: Courtney told the press, of course, that they were in
Speaker 2: this room, that Courtney was alone in the hotel suite
Speaker 2: undergoing a physician assisted drug detox. But that was completely false.
Speaker 2: It was complete fast she was. She was in there
Speaker 2: with her friends and they were all doing drugs.
Speaker 6: Now, with the conversations she Tom Grant has with Courtney,
Speaker 6: because these are obviously extensive, and again you say that she's,
Speaker 6: you know, very aggressive and also says things he's very emotional,
Speaker 6: we'll say, to say the least, and well, you provide
Speaker 6: a lot of examples. But what does she mention about
Speaker 6: divorce and assets and pre nup. What was the information
Speaker 6: that she imparted to him, even if it were in
Speaker 6: pieces about that, Well.
Speaker 2: She was saying that they she told him right away
Speaker 2: that they had a prenuptial agreement, and and she kept saying,
Speaker 2: you know, if we get a divorce, my name is
Speaker 2: on all the houses and all the assets. That doesn't
Speaker 2: mean anything. If we get into court, but so she
Speaker 2: had a prenuptial agreement if they were to get a divorce,
Speaker 2: get half of his present estate, but of course if
Speaker 2: he were to commit suicide, she would get all of it. Now.
Speaker 2: Another thing that was another factor was her new album
Speaker 2: Lived Through. This was also coming out in the following week,
Speaker 2: but that album release was going to be accompanied by
Speaker 2: some very damaging public revelations. One of them was Kirk
Speaker 2: Cobain was going to divorce her. The biggest the biggest
Speaker 2: rocks down in the world was divorcing Curti Courting and Nirvana,
Speaker 2: the hottest band in the world, was breaking up, and
Speaker 2: Courtney was a significant factor in the demise. In my suspicion,
Speaker 2: which I didn't really say too much in the book,
Speaker 2: but it is there, is that her fear was that
Speaker 2: she never said this exactly to Tom, but her fear
Speaker 2: probably was that word was going to get out eventually
Speaker 2: that Kurt had actually written and composed the album Lived Through.
Speaker 2: She has always denied that fact. She says that Kurt
Speaker 2: you know, was never in the studio or never had
Speaker 2: contributing to the album, but she later admitted that in fact,
Speaker 2: he was in the studio. You can actually hear his
Speaker 2: voice singing in the background in several of the tracks.
Speaker 2: So remember, Courtney Love was nearly thirty years old in
Speaker 2: April nineteen ninety four. That's very old for an aspiring musician,
Speaker 2: especially a woman.
Speaker 3: And.
Speaker 2: Her album, her big chance for fame, her big chance
Speaker 2: to break into rockstardom, just about to come out, and
Speaker 2: it was just about to fall apop because she and
Speaker 2: Kurt were breaking up. So the stakes were very high
Speaker 2: for her and she was not going to let this
Speaker 2: opportunity slip from her hands.
Speaker 6: Let's go back to where Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love
Speaker 6: were in terms of the relationship. They had a child
Speaker 6: named Francis. So tell us how long they had been together,
Speaker 6: and before we talked about a couple, other things revolved
Speaker 6: Courtney Love and Kirklebin.
Speaker 2: Well, they'd actually before kirkle means that they had actually
Speaker 2: known each other for less than three years. They've been
Speaker 2: married for just over two years and been a couple
Speaker 2: for about two and a half. They first became a
Speaker 2: couple in October of ninety one and pregnant right away,
Speaker 2: and they had a you know, sort of a quick
Speaker 2: wedding and they were married just a little over two years,
Speaker 2: so they did not know each other even very long. So,
Speaker 2: you know, she married him right just as Nirvana was
Speaker 2: really taking off and started dating and then so they
Speaker 2: didn't really have a long relationship. But when they when
Speaker 2: they got married, their management made Kurt Cobain get a
Speaker 2: particular Kurt's manager, John Silver made Kirk get a pre
Speaker 2: natural agreement. Now, Courtney has always told people that it
Speaker 2: was actually her idea to get the prenatural agreement. That's
Speaker 2: not true. Uh. And and then i know, the night
Speaker 2: before she got married, she met the music journalist Gina
Speaker 2: Arnold and she told Gina Arnold. Donold said, Courtney, what
Speaker 2: do you congratulations? What's what is Kirk going to get
Speaker 2: your for a wedding present? And Courtney looked at her
Speaker 2: and said, I'm gonna get my husband's ATM card. So
Speaker 2: that was pretty much their relationship as soon as they
Speaker 2: got married immediately. Kurt Cobain was not a very strong personality.
Speaker 2: He was, you know, kind of a he was, you know,
Speaker 2: he was five seven, one hundred and twenty pounds. He was,
Speaker 2: you know, very unassertive. He didn't like confrontation. He could
Speaker 2: be pushed around very easily. He had a strong presence
Speaker 2: on stage, but not off stage. And Courtney has a
Speaker 2: very dominating personality, and she was able to push him
Speaker 2: around and take advantage of him quite easily. And almost
Speaker 2: as soon as they got married, she took over his
Speaker 2: finances completely. She was renting private jets, she was taking
Speaker 2: limousines everywhere. Cony does not know how to drive, and
Speaker 2: really just running up his credit cards and buying Joel
Speaker 2: and buying all kinds of things, and he was really
Speaker 2: powerless to do anything about it.
Speaker 6: Now, you're chronicle in the book about to explain how
Speaker 6: this could possibly be in that Courtney Love seems to
Speaker 6: be able to as a musician, but even more importantly,
Speaker 6: she seems to be able to be able to spot talent.
Speaker 6: So there's other characters, famous and less famous that are
Speaker 6: previous to her meeting up with co band. It sort
Speaker 6: of explained, we'll say her motivation and that I for talent.
Speaker 6: So tell us a little bit about her background in
Speaker 6: that Seattle scene and the music scene itself.
Speaker 2: Well, she started out really in the Portland music scene,
Speaker 2: which is sort of, you know, very complimentary to the
Speaker 2: Seattle based scene. And when she was a teenager, according
Speaker 2: to Courtney, she saw Cheap Trick playing concert and she
Speaker 2: managed to scam a backstage past and she watched.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 2: According to Courtney, when she saw the power that the
Speaker 2: band had over the audience, she decided that this was
Speaker 2: what she wanted to be. This was her ultimate goal
Speaker 2: in life, to become a rock star. And she started
Speaker 2: out by becoming a rock and roll coopie. She went
Speaker 2: she inherited some money from her grandmother and she went
Speaker 2: over to Britain, to Liverpool and to New York City
Speaker 2: and she traveled a lot as a professional groupie, and
Speaker 2: she began, according to Courtney, she began performing you know,
Speaker 2: sex acts on different members of the band, even as
Speaker 2: a young teenager, in order to get the attention of
Speaker 2: the lead singer. And terrible as it was, Courtney did
Speaker 2: begin to meet people and get to know people in
Speaker 2: the music business. And that's how she did it. She
Speaker 2: became a professional groupie. She was a very assertive, very
Speaker 2: outspoken groupie, but that's what she did and that was
Speaker 2: her version of climbing the ladder. So by the time
Speaker 2: you know, she got into her twenties, she targeted first
Speaker 2: a musician named roz resback in Portland, who was the
Speaker 2: head of a band called Peter Sheep, but you know,
Speaker 2: his career didn't take off. And then so she moved
Speaker 2: on to a man named James Morland who had a
Speaker 2: band in Los Angeles, and she married him briefly. Band
Speaker 2: didn't take off either, And then she targeted Billy Corgan,
Speaker 2: which was a very success, you know, before he became famous.
Speaker 2: And that was a pretty smart move, pretty shrewd of
Speaker 2: her to target a man that talented. And she was
Speaker 2: with Billy Corgan for quite a while until she saw
Speaker 2: Kirk Cobain perform live. And when she saw Kirk Bring
Speaker 2: and Nirvana perform live, she actually borrowed money from her attorney,
Speaker 2: Rosemary Carroll, and she took her flight to Chicago and
Speaker 2: she attended a Nirvana show and then she betted Kirk
Speaker 2: Cobain after the show, and she was pregnant within a
Speaker 2: couple of weeks. That's pretty much how she landed him.
Speaker 6: Interesting and she the.
Speaker 2: Sorry, go ahead, no, I'm just saying she's a very strong,
Speaker 2: litted person. I don't know if I've ever accounted anyone
Speaker 2: with a will as strong as Courtney Love. And you
Speaker 2: can say what you want about her it's it's it's
Speaker 2: one of her most powerful qualities.
Speaker 6: Now you're talking about what you know about this case,
Speaker 6: but it's a little bit different about Tom Grant. When
Speaker 6: Tom Grant got involved in this case, he didn't know
Speaker 6: anything about Nirvana or who Kurt Cobain or anybody was, did.
Speaker 2: He right now? And that's I think I make that
Speaker 2: Claire in the book when when when the book begins,
Speaker 2: Tom doesn't know anything about either of them. Tom knew criminals, though,
Speaker 2: and he didn't know He knew that Courtney was up
Speaker 2: to something, and he knew she was up to something bad.
Speaker 2: But he he took the position of Okay, well, if
Speaker 2: this man Kirk Cobain really is he might be suicidal.
Speaker 2: Maybe he's not suicidal, but I'm not going to take
Speaker 2: any chances. So Tom said, he was, you know, I'm
Speaker 2: going to record everything. I'm going to document everything because
Speaker 2: i know something is going on here. But I'm going
Speaker 2: to go to Seattle to search for Kirk Cobain because
Speaker 2: I'm a man's life is at stake, and so that's
Speaker 2: what he did. But he was when Tom, he only
Speaker 2: operates in the mode of an investigator, and that's I
Speaker 2: think what I tried to show in the book. So
Speaker 2: he the evidence as it appears as Tom encounters it
Speaker 2: right up until Kirk Cobain dies. Now after after after
Speaker 2: kirk Cobain's death, Tom goes back to where he gets
Speaker 2: a phone call from Kurt Cobain and Courtney loves attorney
Speaker 2: Rosemary Carol. And it was Rosemary Carol who first told
Speaker 2: him Kirk Cobain was not suicidal and she believed ximant suicide.
Speaker 2: So when Tom got that confirmation from someone in there
Speaker 2: in a circle, someone who wasn't someone who was bright,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't a musician someone she was a very
Speaker 2: shrewd woman who was Mary Carroll. And when Tom got
Speaker 2: back confirmations, he realized he started suspecting, Okay, maybe this
Speaker 2: wasn't a mother after all, or not a suicide.
Speaker 6: With that information too, he being an investig private investigator
Speaker 6: and a police officer. When he had that first encounter,
Speaker 6: there was people like and you can correct me, well,
Speaker 6: when you can introduce the characters that are very important
Speaker 6: to this story, that were the sycophants and the people
Speaker 6: with a motivation to need to hang around and musicians
Speaker 6: as well, and you can explain also the bizarre. A
Speaker 6: couple guys that are nannies, you know, teenage nanny. So
Speaker 6: let's hear about Eric Erlander and Michael cally So introduce
Speaker 6: three or four of these characters that were there at
Speaker 6: the time Tom Grant briefly met them, and then as
Speaker 6: a private investigator says, I need to talk to this person,
Speaker 6: and this person produce some of those characters.
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Speaker 2: We do give a biographical section of Courtney in the book,
Speaker 2: and it's called the head and hot of a section
Speaker 2: of the book. I think the second section of the
Speaker 2: book called the head of Heart of Courtney Love, and
Speaker 2: we describe her as a sociopath. That's what we believe
Speaker 2: she is. And in this begins all the way. We
Speaker 2: even cite her her Courtney Love as a mother, Linda Carroll,
Speaker 2: who's a therapist, and we cite her testimony in Linda
Speaker 2: Carroll's own memoir about some of the things Courtney did
Speaker 2: when she was a child. Courtney was just born a
Speaker 2: profoundly disturbed person. She had, you know, just serious mental problems,
Speaker 2: and she had serious problems with the violence. She was
Speaker 2: in a reform school as a teenager, she often had
Speaker 2: to be put in restraints, she turned tricks, she stripped
Speaker 2: none of what she had to do, but she that
Speaker 2: was just a darkness about her since she was born,
Speaker 2: and the mother seemed powerless to do anything about it.
Speaker 2: Now as a sociopath, one quality of that sociopaths have
Speaker 2: excel at manipulating other people to do pretty much whatever
Speaker 2: they want to do. And Courtney seems to attract people,
Speaker 2: men and women, I would say, men especially who are
Speaker 2: sort of weak willed men that she can pretty much
Speaker 2: manipulate into doing whatever she wants. Now, her guitarist, Eric Arlindson,
Speaker 2: he was the guitarist in the band. He took out
Speaker 2: an ad for a band. Uh took on her ad
Speaker 2: in a classified newspaper Los Angeles, asking if anyone wanted
Speaker 2: to put together a band, and Courtney responded and but
Speaker 2: when she responded to the other she was wanted. The
Speaker 2: rest is history, but at the history she really rewrote
Speaker 2: to fit her own agenda. Coney quickly made the band
Speaker 2: her own, and Eric Arlinson was sort of her to
Speaker 2: this day, sort of her her, her lead gopher, so
Speaker 2: to speak, and he has always done all kinds of
Speaker 2: unsavory tasks for her. So he beats people up for her, women,
Speaker 2: especially he She described it as if I have a
Speaker 2: blue my nose. She told interviewer Eric would go and
Speaker 2: let and grab the kleenex. And so that's one person
Speaker 2: we describe him as as a person of interest in
Speaker 2: the book. And then there's Callie de Witt. Kellie de
Speaker 2: Witt was a teenager who dropped out of high school
Speaker 2: and began working as in as a roadie for a
Speaker 2: whole when he was about sixteen years old. He actually
Speaker 2: became and having sexual relationship with Courtney at that time,
Speaker 2: and he pretty much did whatever Courtney wanted to do.
Speaker 2: Courtney wanted to go get drugs, he would go get drugs.
Speaker 2: Courney wanted to do this, what he wanted to do that,
Speaker 2: he would simply go and do it. She seemed to
Speaker 2: attract these people into her life and now or these
Speaker 2: people seem to be attracted to her now. After she
Speaker 2: married Kirk o Bain, she hired Michael Kelly do it
Speaker 2: they call him Kelly because he was from Calabasas, California.
Speaker 2: She hired Calli to be her nanny, even though the
Speaker 2: Kelly was a teenager and he was a serious heroin
Speaker 2: addict at the time. That's what she did because she
Speaker 2: wanted someone in the in the home that she could
Speaker 2: control completely and who would do whatever she wanted to do. Now,
Speaker 2: what Calli got for that was he got heroin. She
Speaker 2: used Kurt's money to maintain his habit, and she also
Speaker 2: did that with another There's another fellow named Renee Navarette
Speaker 2: that we mentioned in the book. He was also a
Speaker 2: heroin addict and he was also one of the male
Speaker 2: full time nannies that Courtney and Floyd, and he was
Speaker 2: best friends with Cali Duit and Courtney also paid for
Speaker 2: his heroines. So that was with Kurt's money. So that
Speaker 2: was two male nannies were both addicted to heroin and
Speaker 2: they needed Kurt Cobain's money in order to in order
Speaker 2: to maintain their fix, maintain their habit. Now a curtain
Speaker 2: Courtney divorce those guys. Courtney's not going to have so
Speaker 2: much money anymore. Those guys where they're going to get
Speaker 2: their heroin? So that was that's we think one of
Speaker 2: the one of the motives you will in this story.
Speaker 2: One of the possible motives is simply the fact that
Speaker 2: heroin addicts need to maintain their their heroin connection, and
Speaker 2: Courtney held up that the power that was a power
Speaker 2: Courtney had that she held over us.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, Courtney has to be the ringleader here
Speaker 6: regardless if we can say, you know, this person has
Speaker 6: a motivation because they're a heroin addict. I mean, sure
Speaker 6: they have a motivation, but there are other people that
Speaker 6: have a motivation as well, and stronger motivation. Courtney Love
Speaker 6: is a heroin addict. But also what I found was
Speaker 6: fascinating is again you're not saying an outright conspiracy or
Speaker 6: people knew what was going to happen, but the very
Speaker 6: interesting meeting that you chronicle of the music execs and
Speaker 6: you talk about Courtney Love's again super hypocritical attempts at
Speaker 6: intervention and the ones involving the music execs, and really
Speaker 6: what you outline is that it seems more about the
Speaker 6: nine hundred Thou tell about how much money was involved
Speaker 6: with the Lollapalooza and what at least didn't want to do, at.
Speaker 2: Least at nine he was guaranteed at least nine and
Speaker 2: a half million dollars to do a tour. In the
Speaker 2: summer of nineteen ninety four, the LAWASA tour. Now he was,
Speaker 2: he was turning that money down. He simply didn't want
Speaker 2: to be in their honor anymore. Now, there was an
Speaker 2: inter There was an intervention shortly before Kirk Cobain's death.
Speaker 2: And at that intervention was Courtney Love and a few
Speaker 2: of their a few people in their social circle and
Speaker 2: members of the music and uh some music executives that
Speaker 2: were there. And it was at Kurt's house in Seattle.
Speaker 2: Now at that meeting, no one after Kurt's death, everyone
Speaker 2: was saying he was desperately suicidal. But before Kurt's death,
Speaker 2: no one was saying that he was suicidal. Now at
Speaker 2: this meeting, the way Courtney has trade this meeting and
Speaker 2: suppresses that she wanted Kurt to go into rehab to
Speaker 2: kick drugs, but also that this was this intervention was
Speaker 2: for the purpose of saving Kirk Cobain's life. But that
Speaker 2: is not true. No one ever mentioned suicide at this meeting.
Speaker 2: Kurt was going to hurt himself. Kurt was going to
Speaker 2: commit suicide. That wasn't true. They wanted to go to
Speaker 2: rehab so he could clean himself up, so that he
Speaker 2: could meet, so he could meet the obligation of that contract.
Speaker 2: And go on tour. Everyone at that meeting, everyone at
Speaker 2: that intervention had a financial incentive in Kurt Cobain performing
Speaker 2: that summer, but he didn't want to perform, so he
Speaker 2: just didn't want to be in Nirvana anymore. His plan
Speaker 2: was to lead Nirvana and just be a studio musician
Speaker 2: pretty much on his own and do some of his
Speaker 2: own projects. He didn't want to tour anymore. He didn't
Speaker 2: really want the celebrity side of music anymore. But there's
Speaker 2: no money in that. For everyone else, they had a
Speaker 2: financial incentive, and so at that intervention it was more
Speaker 2: like Kurt, clean up your act and go on the
Speaker 2: tour and go into go into rehab. Now, just after
Speaker 2: that intervention, Kurt went out and bought a shotgun. And
Speaker 2: the shotgun that he purchased was a light load shotgun.
Speaker 2: It was the kind of shotgun that you would use
Speaker 2: for home defense. It can, you know, you can shoot
Speaker 2: the burglar, but the shotgun show wouldn't penetrate the walls
Speaker 2: or home, so you wouldn't accidentally kill someone in the
Speaker 2: next room. Something it was is that kind of weapon
Speaker 2: if they would be a strange weapon to purchase for
Speaker 2: the purpose of committing suicide. So what Kurt did was
Speaker 2: he so he buys this shotgun, he leaves at his house,
Speaker 2: and then he buis down to Los Angeles to attend
Speaker 2: drug rehab. Now what did she once he back at
Speaker 2: the hotel room at the Peninsula Hotel Courtney loved a
Speaker 2: few days later after she had hired the day after
Speaker 2: she had hired Tom Grant, she had filed a missing
Speaker 2: person's report with the Seattle Police Department. But when she
Speaker 2: filed this report, she and first of all, she filed
Speaker 2: it under the name of Kirk Cobain's mother. His name
Speaker 2: is Wendy O'Connor. Kurt didn't have much of a relationship
Speaker 2: with his mother. His mother was semi strange. But Courtney
Speaker 2: filed this missing report her mother in law's name. And
Speaker 2: she did that because she wanted to word the report.
Speaker 2: And the report said Kurt ran away from a California
Speaker 2: drug facility, purchased a shotgun, and maybe suicidal. Now, now
Speaker 2: I described this in the book as framing the narrative.
Speaker 2: Courtney wanted to frame the narrative in her favor, and
Speaker 2: that's why she worded this report this way. Now, of course,
Speaker 2: Kirk Cobain did not run away from the California's drug facility.
Speaker 2: In fact, he was in a volunt He checked into
Speaker 2: a voluntary facility, he was free to leave many times
Speaker 2: he wanted to. And when he left on Friday, April first,
Speaker 2: he simply walked out the front door and caught a
Speaker 2: cab to the airport. Now, but he purchased a shotgun
Speaker 2: before he went to drug rehead. Uh and so, but
Speaker 2: that's not what the police thought when they saw this
Speaker 2: police report. When they saw this missing person report, a
Speaker 2: missing personal report that was quickly released to the media,
Speaker 2: they simply assumed it was true and never questioned it.
Speaker 2: Kirk Cobain ran away from a drug facility, pursed the shotgun,
Speaker 2: and maybe suicidal. After all, his own mother said, so,
Speaker 2: so why would you why would you question it? So
Speaker 2: when the when Kirk Cobain was his body was found
Speaker 2: on April eighth, the police pretty much closed the case
Speaker 2: based on that initial report. They closed the case that morning.
Speaker 2: They simply arrived at the scene and simply signed it
Speaker 2: off as a suicide. And if you look at their
Speaker 2: police reports, which we quote in the book, in which
Speaker 2: you can find some of them online, you can see
Speaker 2: that they simply showed up, they said, and they closed
Speaker 2: it that morning and they signed the death in. The
Speaker 2: medical examiner perform the autosity that night and signed the
Speaker 2: death certificate the following days the suicide a Saturday, he signed.
Speaker 2: The medical examiners signed it uh the death suicide. Then.
Speaker 2: Now the toxicology results weren't available for three or four weeks,
Speaker 2: but they still signed it off as a suicide. And
Speaker 2: within six days of the body six days after the
Speaker 2: body was discovered, the body was cremated. And once the
Speaker 2: body is cremated, of course, the case is closed. The
Speaker 2: same day the body is cremated. However, a report comes
Speaker 2: out in the Scatto Post Intelligencer that Shallow police later
Speaker 2: admitted was true that the drug test down on kirk
Speaker 2: Cobain's blood revealed that he had one point five to
Speaker 2: two milligrams of heroin per leader in his system. Now
Speaker 2: that is three times the lethal dose of heroin. So
Speaker 2: the question is, how could kirk Cobain have picked up
Speaker 2: a shotgun, insert it into his mouth and pulled the
Speaker 2: trigger after injecting a three times a lethal dose of heroin.
Speaker 2: It's simply impossible. And then we spend a good deal
Speaker 2: of describing this in the book The Nature of Heroin
Speaker 2: Overdose and the Nature of Heroin Use. Actually, now most
Speaker 2: people when they when you when an addict in Jack's
Speaker 2: heroin and then Jack's too much heroin news system, they're
Speaker 2: found with the needle still in the arm. It enters
Speaker 2: the bloodstream in the brain very quickly and it stops
Speaker 2: breathe very quickly. And that's why addicts are found with
Speaker 2: the needle still in the arms. When you overdose, it's
Speaker 2: almost instant. So Kirk Cobaine would have lost unconsciousness within seconds,
Speaker 2: so it would have been impossible for him to pick
Speaker 2: up that chotgun and started into his mouth. In fact,
Speaker 2: we know that the safety tips on the syringes he
Speaker 2: was injected twice, once in each arm, and the safety
Speaker 2: tips on the syringes were actually reapplied after the injection.
Speaker 2: They were the syringes were placed back into the drug kit.
Speaker 2: The drug kit was placed far from the body, and
Speaker 2: his sleeves were actually rolled down and there was very
Speaker 2: little His face was actually perfectly intact, almost perfectly intact,
Speaker 2: So it's virtually impossible for him to have picked up
Speaker 2: picked up that shotgun after taking triple deadly dose of heroin,
Speaker 2: he would have been unconscious within seconds after that injection.
Speaker 2: And also there's something about the experience of heroin, I
Speaker 2: mean heroin. Within a few seconds of taking heroin, then
Speaker 2: about ten seconds, the heroin user experience is what is
Speaker 2: called the rush, which is an intense euphoric experience that
Speaker 2: lasts for several minutes if you are addicted to heroin.
Speaker 2: Heroin is a euphoric drug, and so if you are
Speaker 2: addicted to heroin, you are addicted to this rush, this
Speaker 2: euphoric experience. So how many deny themselves this rush, this
Speaker 2: euphoric experience just before it's it's about to take place.
Speaker 2: It's inconceivable, and it's virtually never happened before. So you
Speaker 2: couldn't take a euphoric drug and then stick a gun
Speaker 2: into your mouth and pull the trigger. Why not? Wait?
Speaker 2: Why not wait? How could you deny this experience before
Speaker 2: it takes place? Attics are really not We never found it.
Speaker 2: We couldn't find a single example of anyone being able
Speaker 2: to function with this much heroin the system at all.
Speaker 2: And we couldn't find a single example of anyone committing
Speaker 2: suicide after in checking heroin. Not one.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about the The other thing that we
Speaker 6: just skipped over as well is that you do explain
Speaker 6: that Kirk Obain is this is not the first time,
Speaker 6: even though it wouldn't seem to fit with his character
Speaker 6: that he would ever have a gun, but he did
Speaker 6: enjoy going out and shooting at targets. He really wasn't
Speaker 6: a hunter or anything, and he did have guns, and
Speaker 6: his guns were taken away before when Courtney loved called
Speaker 6: about a fake and you write about this in the
Speaker 6: book about a fake suicide attamp. Meanwhile, he's in the
Speaker 6: backyard with his hands in his pocket and they see
Speaker 6: em embarrassed when Pholps came, so explains why he would
Speaker 6: have a gun. So it doesn't lend any credence that
Speaker 6: suddenly he got the gun for any specific reason other
Speaker 6: than the kind of like guns and you didn't have
Speaker 6: anymore anymore, and so he bought this. Not really again,
Speaker 6: not very effective for a suicide. What was the other,
Speaker 6: as you chronicle in the book, what were the other
Speaker 6: kind of very weak things that were at the crime
Speaker 6: scene that the police later cited as evidence of that
Speaker 6: he must have committed suicide.
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, there's the suicide note itself, The
Speaker 2: suicide note. If you read the note, then you can
Speaker 2: find it online. The only reason the suicide note is
Speaker 2: even public, of course, is because Tom, and this is
Speaker 2: describing the book. Tom kind of hoodwind caught me into
Speaker 2: allowing him to make a photocopy of the note in
Speaker 2: her house. And it was Tom who made that note public,
Speaker 2: not courting. But if you look at the note, the
Speaker 2: note actually reads like a letter to his fans about
Speaker 2: why he was breaking up the vana. It doesn't mention
Speaker 2: his wife and child really at all, except in the
Speaker 2: third person. It's all about music. It's written in red
Speaker 2: pen on the back of an iHeart menu and probably
Speaker 2: as he was sitting in a boost getting something to eat.
Speaker 2: And the only thing about the note that sounds suicidal
Speaker 2: are the final four lines. And the final four lines,
Speaker 2: uh say please keep going court me for Francis, for
Speaker 2: her life, which will be so much happier without me.
Speaker 2: He signs the note Kurt Cobain is full name. That's
Speaker 2: something most people will do. Now if you read that,
Speaker 2: If you look at the final four nine lines, you'll
Speaker 2: see that the it's and it's pretty obvious that they're
Speaker 2: written in a different hand. The writing is even the
Speaker 2: letters are even thinner than in the body of the note,
Speaker 2: and the handwriting is clearly not the same hand and
Speaker 2: we've you know, other other uh some handwriting and also
Speaker 2: looked at it and concluded that that the letter is
Speaker 2: not written, that the PostScript and the main body of
Speaker 2: letter were written by two different people. Now getting back
Speaker 2: to the and also getting back to your question, one
Speaker 2: thing that the detectives at the crime scene did not
Speaker 2: realize was that kirk Obain's shotgun. When the shotgun was found,
Speaker 2: it was loaded to full capacity, which would be unusual
Speaker 2: for someone commits suicide. You only need one shotgun shelf
Speaker 2: in suicide. But it was fully loaded. But the shotgun
Speaker 2: shell was lying inverted across his chest. The exit chamber
Speaker 2: on the shotgun shell was facing kirk Cobain's bright Whoever
Speaker 2: the spent shotguns shell kirk Cobain's left, It should have
Speaker 2: ejected to the right the way it was found, but
Speaker 2: it was found to his left. Now, this was something,
Speaker 2: This is a major red flag, but the detectives overlooked it.
Speaker 2: And I think the reason they've overlooked it is because
Speaker 2: they arrived at the crime scene under the assumption that
Speaker 2: it was a suicide. And just when you arrive at
Speaker 2: the crime scene under that assumption, you know, you simply
Speaker 2: you're you're you're blind to evidence like that. You know,
Speaker 2: police departments don't really have to prove suicide. You have
Speaker 2: to prove murder. You have to prove murder murder in court,
Speaker 2: and you have to prove murder to the public through
Speaker 2: a district attorney, to a victim's family. But suicide you
Speaker 2: don't really have to prove it. If a police officer,
Speaker 2: police investigators rule a case of suicide, they can simply
Speaker 2: scribble suicide under cause of death and move on. That's
Speaker 2: the funny thing about it. So they simply were blind
Speaker 2: to a lot of this evidence at the scene, and
Speaker 2: they announced spokesman actually stood outside the crime scene a
Speaker 2: few hours after Kurt Cobain's body was discovered and announced
Speaker 2: that it was a suicide and that there was a
Speaker 2: suicide note founded scene. So you know, it's just it's
Speaker 2: just it's just the mynd bottle.
Speaker 6: But you're right that that's not normal. I mean, Tom
Speaker 6: was a cop in LA So it's either I don't
Speaker 6: know if it's a state thing or a city thing,
Speaker 6: or you know, a county thing. But certainly that's not
Speaker 6: They had sort of a cavalier, according to Tom attitude
Speaker 6: towards suicide and that well, it was just a beat
Speaker 6: cop and he was there and he determined a suicide.
Speaker 6: That's fine. So they didn't approach it like other jurisdictions
Speaker 6: would even approach it.
Speaker 2: And in many jurisdictions, the anytime a body is found,
Speaker 2: anytime there's an unintended death, a homicide investigator will investigate,
Speaker 2: determine that no foul player was involved. But that's not
Speaker 2: the way they do in Seattle even to this day. Actually,
Speaker 2: in Seattle, they allow a patrol officer, some of whom
Speaker 2: we to be just out of the academy, to to
Speaker 2: arrive at that scene and determine whether or not foul
Speaker 2: players involved. So a patrol officer, he might be twenty
Speaker 2: twenty one years old, say he will arrive at the
Speaker 2: crime scene and say, gee, I think there might be
Speaker 2: foul play or no, it looks like it looks like
Speaker 2: an accidental death or it looks like a Suicide's me.
Speaker 2: That's very common in a lot of jurisdictions that they
Speaker 2: don't have homicide investigators respond to every unattended death at
Speaker 2: the same time, it's not considered it's common, but it's
Speaker 2: not considered proper. But that's the way it's done in
Speaker 2: Seattle to this day. It's still in a Seattle police manual.
Speaker 6: Also talked about I believe the medical examiner and his
Speaker 6: lack of actually being an accredited medical examiner. And also
Speaker 6: you show the back roor Tom and you show the
Speaker 6: background of who this person was, and again a possible
Speaker 6: motivation in terms of a conflict. So tell us about
Speaker 6: the relationship with this meme and Fortney Love and the
Speaker 6: credentials that you talk about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, this is another example of the
Speaker 2: truth being strange and in fiction. The medical examiner who
Speaker 2: performed the autopsy and who has actually arrived at the
Speaker 2: crime scene was not a Board of certified medical examiner.
Speaker 2: He was only thirty years old. His name was Nicholas Hotsone.
Speaker 2: He was at the King County Medical Examiner's office doing
Speaker 2: a one year apprenticeship in forensic science, and he performed
Speaker 2: the autopsy on Kurt Cobain, and he was he actually
Speaker 2: went to the crime scene and fingerprinted the body. And
Speaker 2: Nicholas Hotsone was actually a good friends with Courtney Love.
Speaker 2: Seattle is a very small town. He was a big
Speaker 2: fan of the Seattle music scene, and he was involved
Speaker 2: in the promotion of rock concerts and grunge rock concerts
Speaker 2: a lot, and he should have that day. I don't
Speaker 2: believe that, you know, Nicholas Totson was in a sense
Speaker 2: in on it or anything like that. There's no real
Speaker 2: evidence of that. But he was a young guy. He
Speaker 2: showed up at the crime scene and that the homicide
Speaker 2: detectives had already determined that this was a suicide, and
Speaker 2: he was very inexperienced, probably a little styleshruk. He did
Speaker 2: not really know Kirt Cobain, but he did know claudey
Speaker 2: Love and he showed up that day and he performed
Speaker 2: the autopsy that night and wrote suicide on the cause
Speaker 2: of death the next day. But yeah, he's thirty years
Speaker 2: old and not yet board certified medical examiner. Really a
Speaker 2: disgrace that this person was allowed to do that. So
Speaker 2: a few days later, when the drug test result came
Speaker 2: in and they showed that Kirk Cobain had you know,
Speaker 2: three times police for glos of heroin in his system,
Speaker 2: this fellow probably didn't even understand the significance of the evidence.
Speaker 2: He was that inexperienced.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's interesting too that I read all what the
Speaker 6: esteemed medical examiner Cyril Weckt wrote about Sir oh Weckt
Speaker 6: wrote about in terms of how shocked he was at
Speaker 6: the medical examiner's behavior, I guess and conclusions and procedures,
Speaker 6: so very interesting. He's been a guest on the program
Speaker 6: a couple of times, so when he weighs in like
Speaker 6: that and such a again a very strong statement from him,
Speaker 6: is you know, evidence that there's something was something amiss.
Speaker 6: There was one other thing too that there was the
Speaker 6: talk of that well, he could have he killed himself
Speaker 6: because he was locked. The doors were locked, So tell
Speaker 6: us about and the doors were locked and the yes,
Speaker 6: the end, the chair that was jammed up against the
Speaker 6: handle door handle.
Speaker 2: Right, well were the The story that the police put
Speaker 2: out was that m Courtney put out was that Kirk
Speaker 2: Cobain was locked inside the had locked himself inside the
Speaker 2: greenhouse and pressed a stool against the doors so that
Speaker 2: no one could enter, and then committed suicide. But when
Speaker 2: Tom Brant went into the greenhouse and he took photographs
Speaker 2: of the of of the crime scene, he found out
Speaker 2: that it was just a simple push and twist lock
Speaker 2: on the doors and that anyone could open it up. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, So it was like a basically a bathroom
Speaker 2: door lock. And he found the stool and the stool
Speaker 2: was a really tiny little stool, and Tom took pictures
Speaker 2: of the stool and there's no way you put it
Speaker 2: up against any door and and block anything. Now, there's
Speaker 2: no mention of this stool in the initial police reports,
Speaker 2: but there was a extra page added on at the
Speaker 2: end of the police report where the responding officer claims
Speaker 2: that there was a stool that that was pressed up
Speaker 2: against the greenhouse doors that prevented access. Now, that was
Speaker 2: added on after the fact, we believe because the police
Speaker 2: department realized that the that the reports did not reflect
Speaker 2: the story that was out there in the press, meaning
Speaker 2: that kirk Obain must have been alone inside the room
Speaker 2: when he died. Now, we spoke to and I spoke
Speaker 2: to him personally, the fireman who forced entry into the
Speaker 2: greenhouse that day. His name was Lieutenant John Fisken. He's
Speaker 2: still on the fire department, and he told us unequivocally
Speaker 2: that there was no stool against that door. They were
Speaker 2: able to push those doors open very easily, so the
Speaker 2: Seattle Police Department did that. They added that little detail
Speaker 2: onto their reports because that's what often happens with with
Speaker 2: the police department. Tom said, you know, when he was
Speaker 2: in the La Count of Sheriff's apartment, that happened all
Speaker 2: the time, that the supervisors will come up to you
Speaker 2: and say, oh, you know, you've got to You've got
Speaker 2: to add something in here. You know this, this isn't
Speaker 2: good enough. You have to put in a detail about
Speaker 2: this of that. And commanders do this all the time
Speaker 2: to to police officers, uh, when they go over their
Speaker 2: reports to them. Someone probably went up to this, uh
Speaker 2: to this uh the first responding officer, mainly an officer
Speaker 2: named von Lewandowski, and told him you have to add
Speaker 2: a little item about the stool because, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: we have to cover ourselves here. It's very obvious when
Speaker 2: you read the reports that threw that in there. So
Speaker 2: they were doing damage control the Seattle Police Department very
Speaker 2: early after the body was discovered. They realized, i think
Speaker 2: probably within a week of the of the body being discovered,
Speaker 2: that they had botched the investigation, and they started doing
Speaker 2: damage control and they've been doing it ever since.
Speaker 6: And they also knew that they had Tom Grant on
Speaker 6: the scene as well, hired by Courtney Love, and he
Speaker 6: was acting like a real investigator, where other people were
Speaker 6: taking the word of Courtney Love or other or taking
Speaker 6: the narrative, like you say, the narrative with infactual and
Speaker 6: non factual information loaded in there and then and building
Speaker 6: other reasons for things from there, so inherently wrong approach.
Speaker 6: But they knew that Tom Grant was asking some probing questions.
Speaker 6: Now at the same time, part of this incredible again
Speaker 6: you say sociopathic character is Courtney Love is that she
Speaker 6: is making sure that she is going to capitalize on
Speaker 6: this no matter what. Again, you talk about this album
Speaker 6: coming out on April twelfth of that year. So how
Speaker 6: does she manipulate some of the biggest journalists in the
Speaker 6: music business and what does she tell them in that
Speaker 6: goal of manipulation.
Speaker 2: Well, Coney spends Courtney is a very charming person. I've
Speaker 2: met Cody was and uh, but not in a long time,
Speaker 2: And she is a very she has a real she
Speaker 2: has a real charm about her and everyone who meets
Speaker 2: her finds are very charming. And she spends about eight
Speaker 2: to twelve hours a day, as I understand it on
Speaker 2: the telephone, and she calls journalists directly. She is the media.
Speaker 2: She is a you know, a master of media manipulation.
Speaker 2: And I described this in the book. You have to
Speaker 2: be impressed about how very good, how skilled she is
Speaker 2: at manipulating the press. Now, the press that she manipulates
Speaker 2: is pretty much the rock and roll entertainment press. And
Speaker 2: as I say you know right away in the introduction,
Speaker 2: a lot of rock and roll journalists. These are not
Speaker 2: the best writers, and these are not the smartest guys,
Speaker 2: a lot of them. So they're very it's very easily
Speaker 2: to to manipulate them. And she does this by charming them,
Speaker 2: by calling them constantly on the phone, and she makes
Speaker 2: she has a knack for making people feel like they're
Speaker 2: very important, like they're her closest friends.
Speaker 5: Uh.
Speaker 2: And it really works for her. Now, when kirk Cobain's
Speaker 2: body was discovered, she was on the phone that very day.
Speaker 2: We're calling music journalists, she called. She had the music
Speaker 2: journalists ever true fly out from Cincinnati to Seattle that day.
Speaker 2: She gave several journalists UH Tom Grant's cell phone number.
Speaker 1: UH.
Speaker 2: The day kirk Cobain's body discovered, Thomas cell phone numbers,
Speaker 2: bringing cell phone is bringing off hook for days with
Speaker 2: journalists who'd gotten who had gotten his number? Uh from
Speaker 2: Courtney Love. So you know, she was on the phone
Speaker 2: constantly right after Kirk Cobain died, bugging her album. She
Speaker 2: was on the phone with Kurt Loader on MTV the
Speaker 2: day after Kirk Cobain died, and she had an interesting
Speaker 2: conversation with Loader and uh k Kurt Loader described it
Speaker 2: on air. Now, the thing about the thing about Cony
Speaker 2: is is, you know, suicide is a very A suicide
Speaker 2: is a very difficult. A genuine suicide is a very experience.
Speaker 2: If your spouse commits suicide, you know, those people go
Speaker 2: through a living hell. But Coney was on the phone
Speaker 2: constantly after his death, talking to everyone, and she called
Speaker 2: you know, she wasn't expressing any sadness at all to
Speaker 2: Tom Grant or to others after Kirk Cobain's death, unless
Speaker 2: the course of cameras were rolling. But she called Kurt
Speaker 2: Loader the day after Kirk Cobain died and told him,
Speaker 2: you know, uh, you know, several fed him several false
Speaker 2: facts that got out there. One of them she described
Speaker 2: the suicide note, and she used this quote from the note.
Speaker 2: She quotes the note as saying, it's no fun for
Speaker 2: me anymore. I can't live this life. Well, that line
Speaker 2: doesn't appear anywhere in the suicide in the in the
Speaker 2: LT suicide note. And she also told Kurt Louder that
Speaker 2: the damage to kirk cobain was head was so severe
Speaker 2: that he had to be identified with fingerprints. That's false.
Speaker 2: The damage to his face was minimal, and the reason
Speaker 2: he had to be identified with fingerprints is that because
Speaker 2: it's standard procedure to fingerprints the deceased, regardless of the
Speaker 2: condition of body. And she also told him that kirk
Speaker 2: Cobain wrote a suicide that was addressed to her. That
Speaker 2: is also not true. That suicide note was non addressed
Speaker 2: to her. So she does this the day after the
Speaker 2: body is discovered, but Loder gets on air and describes
Speaker 2: the conversation in detail, and those facts were repeated in
Speaker 2: the media all over the world. Now you have to
Speaker 2: realize that in nineteen ninety four the medium moved much more.
Speaker 2: It's easy to banish the mainstream media, but in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety four the medium much moved very slowly. There wasn't
Speaker 2: really any online news in nineteen ninety four, not much
Speaker 2: of it online. You know, stories didn't break online in
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four. You had to wait for the radio,
Speaker 2: the evening news, or the morning paper. And so it
Speaker 2: was in a way much more, much easier for her
Speaker 2: to manipulate the press back then, and the mainstream media
Speaker 2: was a little bit out of their element reporting on
Speaker 2: Kirk Coleane's death because it was a different world to them.
Speaker 2: It was a shadowy world of you know, heroin and grunge.
Speaker 2: It was something they didn't understand, and they often deferred
Speaker 2: to the music media, the rock and roll press, to
Speaker 2: describe the crime of Kurt Cobain's death. They simply deferred
Speaker 2: to them in the music media. They were out of
Speaker 2: their elements. They didn't understand anything about stage suicides or
Speaker 2: any possibility of such a thing. That the Seattle police
Speaker 2: day was a suicide. They're going to believe it's a
Speaker 2: suicide and they're not going to question it. It wasn't
Speaker 2: like today. With an online media, stories can be updated,
Speaker 2: there's a lot more competition, there's a lot more alternative
Speaker 2: points of view. Stories can be updated online and constantly,
Speaker 2: and I don't think she could have gotten away with
Speaker 2: it today, but in nineteen eighty four she was able
Speaker 2: to manipulate the press, you know, very skillfully and very shrewdly.
Speaker 2: We describe that in the book, how skilled she is
Speaker 2: doing that, and you know it's a it was a
Speaker 2: terrible thing, but in a way at the same time,
Speaker 2: it's highly impressive.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about Tom gret and his relationship with Courtney
Speaker 6: Love and the point where he says to her, listen,
Speaker 6: because there are points where he says, you want me
Speaker 6: to continue keep looking, you want me to keep investigating.
Speaker 6: I mean, he's working for her, but yet the same time,
Speaker 6: he has his own code of ethics in terms of
Speaker 6: he's not going to do anything illegal for her, and
Speaker 6: his loyalty is just to the truth, that's all. So
Speaker 6: when does he have this tell us about how you
Speaker 6: describe the conversation he has with Courtney and he's kind
Speaker 6: of surprised at her reaction and what goes on after
Speaker 6: he tells her what his purpose is and what he's
Speaker 6: going to do. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Well, this is one of the points in the book
Speaker 2: that I find a very interesting, very revealing and also amusing. Now,
Speaker 2: Tom is Tom is a Tom is a tough guy.
Speaker 2: And Tom became suspicious of fell started becoming more and
Speaker 2: more suspicious.
Speaker 6: And.
Speaker 2: He wrote Courtney a letter about a month after Cobain's death,
Speaker 2: and he said, Uh, you know, I'm very suspicious. I'm
Speaker 2: highly suspicious of your husband's death. Uh, consider your bill
Speaker 2: paid in full, and I'm going to keep you investigating
Speaker 2: this death on my own. He sends her that letter,
Speaker 2: the letter effectively saying, you know, I believe your husband
Speaker 2: was murdered. Now, Uh, you would expect Courtney Love has
Speaker 2: a legendary volcanic temper. You expect her to get very
Speaker 2: angry over something like that. He also helped put an
Speaker 2: article in the Seattle Times that caused uh that that
Speaker 2: that shed some light on Kirk Cobain's final days and
Speaker 2: in questioned the police investigation. And Courtney knew that the
Speaker 2: report of the Tail Times. Deeff Wilson got a lot
Speaker 2: of information from Tom, but she didn't ask him about it.
Speaker 2: So when Tom sends her this letter, this, uh, this letter,
Speaker 2: that must have scared the hell out of her. What
Speaker 2: she did instead was she didn't call him angrily. She
Speaker 2: instead she called him and I transcribed this conversation in
Speaker 2: the book, and she tried to charm him, and she
Speaker 2: talked to him like they were best friends. Now, this
Speaker 2: is one of Corney's routinees. She puts on a charm
Speaker 2: routine for people that when she wants something from them,
Speaker 2: she tries to charm them, and she stops charming him.
Speaker 2: She's talking to him like they were buddies, and then
Speaker 2: she hires him to do more work. I kind of
Speaker 2: imagine someone investigating effectively investigating murder and hiring them to
Speaker 2: do more work. So let me put it this way,
Speaker 2: It's very unusual for a private investigator to investigate his
Speaker 2: client for murder and to continue openly investigate his client
Speaker 2: for murder and continue to work for that client on
Speaker 2: other matters. I've simply never heard. It's just a very
Speaker 2: bizarre situation. I've never heard of anything like that in
Speaker 2: my life. So it's, you know, it's kind of funny.
Speaker 2: And then when one of the things that Courtney had
Speaker 2: tom too, was of course, to surveil her new boyfriend.
Speaker 2: She had moved on very quickly to Trent Reznor, the
Speaker 2: lead singer of nine inch Nails, and Courtney was obsessed
Speaker 2: with the fact that Trent might be cheating on her,
Speaker 2: so Tom began to surveil Trent Resnor as he went
Speaker 2: on tour, and Courtney would call him and tell him,
Speaker 2: you know, where Trent was going to be staying, and
Speaker 2: Trent was hanging out with and and and that's what
Speaker 2: that's what Tom. A lot of what Tom was doing
Speaker 2: for during the summer of nineteen ninety four. Now that,
Speaker 2: of course, was probably not smart of Courtney, because you know,
Speaker 2: it only made Tom more suspicious because if you're really
Speaker 2: a grieving widow and a grieving suicide survivor, what are
Speaker 2: you doing running off with a new rock star? As
Speaker 2: I said, how you know, genuinely grieving widows would behave
Speaker 2: But yeah, very strange, It's very strange. But it went
Speaker 2: on as you can hear this now, you can see
Speaker 2: this in the recordings that I transcribed, and if you
Speaker 2: get the chance to hear them. As a private investigator,
Speaker 2: you're not in a position to really interrogate clients because
Speaker 2: in theory, the client is free to fire you whenever
Speaker 2: they want, so you really can't ask too many aggressive questions.
Speaker 2: That's just not what private investigators can do. But Tom
Speaker 2: started getting more aggressive with Coney, and you can hear
Speaker 2: that in their conversations, and Courtney become much more fearful,
Speaker 2: and she started trying to get Tom to sign this
Speaker 2: confidentiality and Tom refused to sign it. And then after
Speaker 2: a while she started hiring other attorneys and other private
Speaker 2: investigators and trying to convince Tom to work with them.
Speaker 2: And what she was really trying to do was trying
Speaker 2: was figure out what Tom had learned and what Tom
Speaker 2: was up to. So she was really sweating as summer
Speaker 2: turned into fall in nineteen ninety four and Tom was
Speaker 2: asking Courtney for a to submit to a polygraph. He
Speaker 2: wanted Callie DeWitt to submit to a polygraph because Calli
Speaker 2: was actually at the house when Kirk Cobin died and
Speaker 2: you know that. And she wanted a copy of the
Speaker 2: autopsy report. In state of Washington, autopsy reports are considered
Speaker 2: private medical records and in most jurisdictions they were open
Speaker 2: to the public, but not in the state of Washington.
Speaker 2: So he wanted the autopsy report. Now, Courtney promised many
Speaker 2: times that she would deliver on all of these things,
Speaker 2: but she never did and hesitant to this day, but
Speaker 2: she could gradually end one of the One of the
Speaker 2: turning point for Tom was when Courtney gave an interview
Speaker 2: to David Frick of Rolling Stone, and in that interview
Speaker 2: she describes a second suicide note, alleged suicide note. Well, actually,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, this is a third suicide note. There's a
Speaker 2: third suicide note because suicide note in Rome Kurt allegedly
Speaker 2: wrote in Rome, Italy the month before he died. But
Speaker 2: she also said that Kurt left her a second suicide
Speaker 2: note at his home when he died. Now, Courtney had
Speaker 2: never told anyone about this other suicide note. She'd never
Speaker 2: told Tom, she'd never told it the police, no one
Speaker 2: had ever seen it before. And when Tom found out
Speaker 2: about this note. You can hear this in the recording,
Speaker 2: she claimed that the note had been left underneath her pillows.
Speaker 2: As we describe in the book, Tom actually inspected her
Speaker 2: bed very thoroughly and picked up the mattress and pulled
Speaker 2: it over and was looking for drugs, and there was
Speaker 2: no note underneath Coty's pillows. And the reason she made
Speaker 2: up this other note is because she didn't like the
Speaker 2: way the interviewer from Rolling Stone was asking questions about
Speaker 2: the veracity of the legitimacy of the suicide note, so
Speaker 2: she switched the subject and decides talking about this other
Speaker 2: note that no one else had seen. So when Tom
Speaker 2: found out that she had lied about this, he realized
Speaker 2: that that was a breaking point, and I described this
Speaker 2: in the book. He realized that he has to come
Speaker 2: out and speak publicly. And that was one of the
Speaker 2: parts of the book that's never been really discussed before.
Speaker 2: The Tom's never discussed his efforts to his struggle to
Speaker 2: try to blow the whistle on this case, which was
Speaker 2: very hot for him, but we described it in great
Speaker 2: detail in the book.
Speaker 6: Yeah, one of the other central figures in here, the
Speaker 6: nemesis of Tom Grant is this Sergeant Cameron and his
Speaker 6: refusal even when he's faced with some compelling evidence, he says, well,
Speaker 6: I haven't heard anything that's going to convince me. So
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit more about I mean, this
Speaker 6: is really a guy that's adamant that cases closed. So
Speaker 6: tell us about Sergeant Cameron and Tom Grant.
Speaker 2: Well, Sergeant Cameron was known as Missus Homicide in the
Speaker 2: Seattle Police Department. Now I later learned Now, one of
Speaker 2: the things we did in this book, just in the
Speaker 2: side is we didn't use any anonymous socis, but we
Speaker 2: also spoke to several Seattle police offices, and one of
Speaker 2: the Seattle police offices I spoke to on the record
Speaker 2: was a guy named Floyd Stagger and Sagian. Cameron was
Speaker 2: known as Mister Homicide, not because he was a great
Speaker 2: homicide investigator, but because he actually ran the department like
Speaker 2: it was his own kingdom and is on the scene
Speaker 2: that day, and Cameron was one who ordered the case
Speaker 2: closed the Deave Kirk Cobaine's body was discovered. One of
Speaker 2: the reasons he probably did that. It was the attitude
Speaker 2: of Cameron, and probably of others there was that they
Speaker 2: didn't like these Seattle musicians with their grunge dress and
Speaker 2: their lifestyle. A lot of people in the political establishment
Speaker 2: in Seattle, in the government establishment, it didn't like this,
Speaker 2: this new side of Seattle, and they had no sympathy
Speaker 2: for the for them. We even quote one of the
Speaker 2: one of the private investigators in Seattle telling Tom Grant,
Speaker 2: what do you care about all these people, Tom, They
Speaker 2: are just a bunch of junkies. That was kind of
Speaker 2: the attitude that Cameron had now Cameron. When Tom went
Speaker 2: to confront Cameron, Tom didn't know at the time that
Speaker 2: the body had just been cremated. Cameron certainly knew this,
Speaker 2: and he brought with Cameron, and he brought Hobby Levin,
Speaker 2: who's a big celebrity news figure in the United States now,
Speaker 2: and he confronted Cameron, showing Cameron the suicide note and
Speaker 2: also showing him of the credit card records. Now, the
Speaker 2: credit card records for Kirk Cobain. Kirk Cobain's credit card
Speaker 2: had been used repeatedly the last week of his life,
Speaker 2: right up until the day the body was discovered. Now
Speaker 2: we believe Kirk Cobain was probably killed on the third
Speaker 2: or the fourth, late in the evening April third, or
Speaker 2: early in the morning Monday, April fourth, But someone was
Speaker 2: trying to use Kirk Cobain's credit card all the way
Speaker 2: up to April eighth. Someone tried to use his credit
Speaker 2: card twice the morning his body was discovered. Who had
Speaker 2: that credit card? Tom had all the you know, the
Speaker 2: proof from the bank of all these attempted transactions, and
Speaker 2: he showed them to shot and Cameron, and someone got
Speaker 2: this guy's credit card well before the body was discovered,
Speaker 2: and that's pretty serious proof of wrongdoing. And Cameron just
Speaker 2: looked at Tom and said, you know, nothing he was
Speaker 2: shown me is proof of anything but suicide. And he
Speaker 2: just wouldn't hear it. You know, he wasn't going to
Speaker 2: have this private investigator from Beverly Hills come in here
Speaker 2: and tell him how to do his job. But what
Speaker 2: Cameron also did is afterwards, after Tom left the office
Speaker 2: that day, and this is in the police footballs, he
Speaker 2: called Courtney Love and arranged for detectives to go to
Speaker 2: house the following Monday, and then he started ordering some
Speaker 2: more investigation of the of the death, even though the
Speaker 2: body was already creamy, even though the case is already closed.
Speaker 2: He did it really just for to cover his cover
Speaker 2: his butt, not to actually investigate the crime. So, for example,
Speaker 2: the shotgun and was tested for fingerprints, but not until
Speaker 2: twenty eight days after the body was discovered. Well you know,
Speaker 2: no legible friends were found on the shotgun, suggesting that
Speaker 2: it was wiped down. It's a very large shotgun, with
Speaker 2: forty six inch long shotgun that's nearly four feet long,
Speaker 2: and they should have been prints all over it, given
Speaker 2: that it was handled by three people before before Kirk
Speaker 2: Cobaine's death, Kurt, his best friend Dylan Cownson, and the
Speaker 2: gun sales on but no prints were found on that shotgun,
Speaker 2: and that suggestedive and wiped down. But it wasn't even
Speaker 2: tested for almost a month after the body was started,
Speaker 2: so they did all. The suicide note wasn't analyzed until
Speaker 2: two weeks after the body was discovered. So a lot
Speaker 2: of these things Cameron started doing after the case was
Speaker 2: closed and after the body had been cremated. Now a
Speaker 2: few years later Cameron was actually fired for well forced
Speaker 2: to retire for doctoring a crime scene in an unrelated case,
Speaker 2: and we described this at like from the book. He
Speaker 2: actually took one of his detectives actually stole elevendred dollars
Speaker 2: from a crime scene, and Cameron, rather than arresting this detective,
Speaker 2: actually took him back to the crime scene and allowed
Speaker 2: this detective to return the money to the crime scene
Speaker 2: and then and then they went in to rediscover the evidence.
Speaker 2: And so it's basically he was a betting a felony.
Speaker 2: So the question is, since Cameron doctored this in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety seven, he had doctored this crime scene where a
Speaker 2: theft occurred by one of his own detectives, which is
Speaker 2: a very serious crime. One has to wonder how many
Speaker 2: other crime scenes he has manipulated. Now, there was a
Speaker 2: note Kirt Cobain. Backtracking bit here. We believe the first
Speaker 2: attempt on Kirt Cobain's life was in Rome, Italy. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, about a month before his own death, his
Speaker 2: actual death. Now, in Rome, Kirk Cobain had he was
Speaker 2: on tour with Nirvana and in Rome he had told
Speaker 2: Fortney Love that he wanted, uh, he wanted a divorce
Speaker 2: and he was adamant about it. Now he wrote, he
Speaker 2: handed her a three page note that he wrote on
Speaker 2: the hotel stationery and the next day he was rushed
Speaker 2: to the hospital. We're having overdosed on a mixture of
Speaker 2: champagne and roe hypno. Now the rote hypno belonged to Courtney.
Speaker 2: Courtney has long had a prescription for roe hypno. Roe
Speaker 2: Hypno is known as the date Great drug in the
Speaker 2: United States. It's the sort of white dime sized pill
Speaker 2: that can dissolve in liquid very quickly, and it's odorless
Speaker 2: and tasteless and induces and consciousness or right away, and
Speaker 2: when taking a combination with alcohol, it's deadly. Now, Kirk
Speaker 2: Cobain didn't drink that much. We believe that this rom
Speaker 2: overdose was the first, in fact, the first attempt on
Speaker 2: his life, and we described this book and when when
Speaker 2: he finally but Kirk Cobain did not die. He was
Speaker 2: in a coma for twenty hours and then he came
Speaker 2: back to and then he recovered and flew back to
Speaker 2: the United States. But he still intended to the wolves, Courtney,
Speaker 2: and it's still intended to leave Nevada. Now, when Cony
Speaker 2: came back to after his death, Courtney used this note
Speaker 2: that Kirk her in Rome as a comparison writing sample.
Speaker 2: Gave that to the Seattle Police Department so they can
Speaker 2: compare it to the suicide note found at the crime
Speaker 2: scene in Seattle. Now, what Cameron did was Sondra Cameron
Speaker 2: took that crime scene in June of nineteen ninety four.
Speaker 2: He took that Rome note out of the evidence hawker.
Speaker 2: He drove to Courtney's house, and we have a recording
Speaker 2: of Courtney describing this incident by in detail. He returned
Speaker 2: that note to Courtney and told her to destroy it immediately.
Speaker 2: This note will not do you or your family any good.
Speaker 2: So now we have a lead suicide detective returning the
Speaker 2: note to Courney. Well, certainly because he believes it's evidence
Speaker 2: that Kirko Man did not commit suicide and telling her
Speaker 2: to destroy evidence. So this guy did a lot of
Speaker 2: this sort of thing. And the police chief at the time,
Speaker 2: Norm Stamper, you know, had a very low opinion of
Speaker 2: told us he had a very low opinion of Cameron,
Speaker 2: and he tried to fire him, but he just retired
Speaker 2: very quickly after the scandal happened with his detective and
Speaker 2: and died a few years later. So whatever you know,
Speaker 2: he knew about the death of Kurt Cobain, he took
Speaker 2: to But at least we know for a fact that
Speaker 2: Thoma originally alleged that the the the detective in charge
Speaker 2: of the Kobain case, was a corrupt cop, and that
Speaker 2: has been proven to be true. You know, he resigned,
Speaker 2: He was forced to resign in disgrace. You know, a
Speaker 2: one dirty cop can do a lot of damage, letting a.
Speaker 6: Lot of credence to what you were saying about Courtney
Speaker 6: Love and the what you call the attempt, the first
Speaker 6: attempt at Kirk Cobain is that the conversation or this
Speaker 6: occurred around two or three am, and yet the ambulance
Speaker 6: got there at six thirty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, one thing, you know, one thing about Coney
Speaker 2: love is that hers Here's a good difference between Tom
Speaker 2: and Coney. Tom's story has never changed over the years.
Speaker 2: Tom is always told as an investigator. He's always told
Speaker 2: the same story. His version events has never once changed,
Speaker 2: and he's always been able to back up his version
Speaker 2: of events. Coney has changed her story, you know, that's
Speaker 2: how innocent people testify. Their story doesn't really change very much.
Speaker 2: Guilty people, you know, they they changed their story. Their
Speaker 2: story changes a little bit over the time. And Coney
Speaker 2: has changed her story in Rome a few times now.
Speaker 2: According to Courtney, she told Spinning and Rolling Stone magazine,
Speaker 2: she got up at about between three and four in
Speaker 2: the morning, found Kurt. You know, in one version, Kurt's
Speaker 2: lying on the edge of the bed with blood counting
Speaker 2: out's Norshall. And another version he's lying on the floor.
Speaker 2: But she found Humber about three in the morning, according
Speaker 2: to her, and he was, you know, with the with
Speaker 2: a suicide note and you know, in a coma. But
Speaker 2: unfortunately for Courtney, you know this, the ambulance didn't arrive
Speaker 2: till six thirty. Uh and so why was about a
Speaker 2: three hour delay and calling the ambulance. So why the
Speaker 2: three hour delay and what happened during the three hour delay?
Speaker 2: And this goes back to the problem, to the question
Speaker 2: of media manipulation, and this I think is the most
Speaker 2: interesting parts of the book. David Geffen, probably the biggest
Speaker 2: figure in the in the in the corporate music industry.
Speaker 2: The head of Geffen Records, claims that Courtney Love called
Speaker 2: him from Rome and told him that Kurt Cobaine had
Speaker 2: finally committed suicide. His exact words were, well, if you know,
Speaker 2: if someone's determined to commit suicide, you know there's nothing
Speaker 2: you can do. That's what he told Ron his man
Speaker 2: Danny Goldberg. Danny Goldberg claims that later claimed that Courtney
Speaker 2: Love did not actually call David Geffen, that it was
Speaker 2: actually a prank phone call, that someone pretending to be
Speaker 2: courtey called David Geffen at his office and told him
Speaker 2: that it's just a very suspicious alibi there. David Geffen
Speaker 2: is not an easy guy to get on the telephone.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think I could pick up my
Speaker 2: phone tomorrow and get David Geffen on the phone. No,
Speaker 2: I don't think I could do it.
Speaker 4: But but.
Speaker 2: And at this time, at the time this phone call
Speaker 2: came to David Geffen, almost no one knew that Kirk Cobain, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, had had fallen into a comor room. There
Speaker 2: was no online media at this time. It wasn't there
Speaker 2: was no nothing was posted online. It was very few
Speaker 2: people were in the know. And David Geffen got this
Speaker 2: claims she got this phone call from Courtney Love telling
Speaker 2: him the talking point that she the very talking point
Speaker 2: that she is all he's insisted on her. Cobain was
Speaker 2: congenually tangenitally suicidal. He finally of his own life, that's what.
Speaker 2: But apparently, you know, the official, their official alibi is
Speaker 2: now it was a hoax. It was an impostor, it
Speaker 2: was a prank phone call. But we could never figure
Speaker 2: out who did it. And it's just really, really that's
Speaker 2: a quite a stretch. But at any rate, her Cobain
Speaker 2: did not die in Rome, and when he came back
Speaker 2: to Seattle, he had not you know, he had not
Speaker 2: changed his mind. He was still going to divorce Courtney.
Speaker 2: It wasn't. Of course, it's not easy to get a
Speaker 2: divorce when when two people have a child together. It's
Speaker 2: not like you can just you know, walk out the door,
Speaker 2: but there was a child and they did, you know,
Speaker 2: have to figure out what to uh, what to do
Speaker 2: about it and how to handle it. So it's not,
Speaker 2: you know, an easy break to make, but he was
Speaker 2: certainly determined to make the break. Now. When he came
Speaker 2: back to Seattle, he called his Courtney was afraid that
Speaker 2: he was going to leave, and if he had left
Speaker 2: Seattle and divorced her, she was going to be in trouble.
Speaker 2: She could not let kirkba and leave Seattle because he
Speaker 2: was going to leave with all of his money and
Speaker 2: her career would fall apart. So one thing that she
Speaker 2: did was when he left for a few days, she
Speaker 2: was afraid that he was going to be gone for good,
Speaker 2: so she canceled all his credit cards and his ATM card.
Speaker 2: He was in a motel in Seattle, and when she
Speaker 2: did this, he called Rosemary Carol, his attorney in Los Angeles,
Speaker 2: and told her that he wanted Rosemary to draft him
Speaker 2: a new will and he wanted Courtney cut out of it.
Speaker 2: When he returned to the house, he told Courtney about
Speaker 2: what he had done. Courtney flew into her raid she
Speaker 2: was not going to be in kurtswill. It really drove
Speaker 2: her over the edge. And right after that there was
Speaker 2: what I call the March eighteenth incident. And this is
Speaker 2: one of my personally one of my favorite sessions of
Speaker 2: the book. Now, what we again, what we did in
Speaker 2: the book was we contacted a lot of several people
Speaker 2: from the Seattle Pleice Bottom and spoke to them on
Speaker 2: the record. And now in March eighteenth, Courtney Love dial
Speaker 2: nine one one and this was widely reported in the press.
Speaker 2: After Kirk Cowaine sat and told uh the nine to
Speaker 2: one one operator that Kirk Cobain had locked himself in
Speaker 2: a room and had a gun and had tratened to
Speaker 2: kill himself. Now, when people stage a murder to look
Speaker 2: like a suicide, they often planned a suicide trail both
Speaker 2: before and after the murder. Here she she planned this
Speaker 2: story that Kirk Cobain had locked himself in a room
Speaker 2: and was going to a suicide. So the arresting office,
Speaker 2: the arriving officer named Officer ed Everett Edwards, and I
Speaker 2: spoke to him personally, and he he gets to the
Speaker 2: scene and Courtney is standing, you know, in front on
Speaker 2: the front of the house, and she's screaming wildly at him,
Speaker 2: and she says, you know, he's got a gun, he's
Speaker 2: gonna kill himself, and she's and he said, okay, well
Speaker 2: we can't enter the house until you know other units arrive.
Speaker 2: And she screams at him, and she says, well, if
Speaker 2: you're not going to do anything, just get the f
Speaker 2: out of hair. She screams at him, and then but
Speaker 2: other units ride within minutes, and so some people go through.
Speaker 2: Some officers go through the front door. Officer Edwards in
Speaker 2: his partner, they go and run around to the back door,
Speaker 2: and when they get to the back door, they swat
Speaker 2: her cobain and he doesn't have a gun. He's not
Speaker 2: locked inside his room. He's standing in the backyard with
Speaker 2: his hands in his pockets, rolling his eyes deeply embarrassing.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, there goes Courtney Love. There goes Courtney
Speaker 2: and Toland on the cops again. So I approach. Officer
Speaker 2: Edward approaches to the police car. They sit in the
Speaker 2: back of the car. K Kurt says, now, we just
Speaker 2: had a big fight. I locked myself in a room
Speaker 2: in a while to get away from where I didn't
Speaker 2: have a gun, and I never said I was going
Speaker 2: to hurt myself. Now this is in the police report.
Speaker 2: When officers interviewed Courtney, she actually admitted to them that
Speaker 2: she made the entire story up. She never saw him
Speaker 2: with a gun and never heard him say anything of
Speaker 2: the kind. Now, this is actually something that's new in
Speaker 2: the book. And after k Cobaine's death, the press reported
Speaker 2: on this incident as evidence of Kurt being suicidal and
Speaker 2: Courtney loved desperately trying to save his life. They Courtney's
Speaker 2: version of the incident, not to say I had a
Speaker 2: police deparminence version or officer Edward's version. This is this
Speaker 2: is something that's new that's never been reported before the book.
Speaker 2: So Courtney Love's version that he attempted suicide in March
Speaker 2: eighteenth was actually featured in a cover story. It was
Speaker 2: reported the day after Churt's body was discovered, and Wiley
Speaker 2: reported in the press and even in a cover story
Speaker 2: in Newsweek. There was Newsweek this cover story called the
Speaker 2: Mystery of Suicide, and it described this March eighteenth incident
Speaker 2: as a suicide attempt and also a successful attempt by
Speaker 2: Courtney to save her husband's life. Completely false. We talked
Speaker 2: to the officer on the scene and he funks the
Speaker 2: entire the entire tale that she's told. But again, Courtney
Speaker 2: is very good at manipulating the press, and she did
Speaker 2: it then, and she got her story out there first,
Speaker 2: and that's what everyone believed, but it's not true.
Speaker 6: Now, we only got a few minutes left, and I
Speaker 6: know this book is exhaustive in terms of the investigation
Speaker 6: that Tom Grant did to cover every single solitary base.
Speaker 6: And like you say, you were interviewed numerous people yourself,
Speaker 6: just quickly. The thing that probably people haven't heard at
Speaker 6: all is at near the end of your book when
Speaker 6: you talk about actually some police officers coming forward and
Speaker 6: disagreeing with the official Seattle Police Department's assessment of it,
Speaker 6: and namely an officer Wilson, and hopefully I don't mispronounce
Speaker 6: his detective Sieninski. So tell us a little bit, just
Speaker 6: a little bit about that, just as a little tease
Speaker 6: for people to realize that if they go to the book,
Speaker 6: they're going to be reading this kind of further evidence,
Speaker 6: stuff that they've never heard before to refute the official
Speaker 6: claim of suicide.
Speaker 2: Well, a couple of years ago, right before the twentieth
Speaker 2: anniversary of Kurt Cobain's death, Seattle Police department played to
Speaker 2: have reopened the the case file and he was going
Speaker 2: to re examine the evidence. Now. They assigned this to
Speaker 2: a man named Detective Mike Sazinsky. Sazinski actually was one
Speaker 2: of a detectives that worked closely and directly under Detective Cameron.
Speaker 2: He's been on the force for a long time. He
Speaker 2: was a very poor choice, uh to to work on
Speaker 2: this case. The immediate the Seattle police sort of pretended that,
Speaker 2: you know, they were going to look at the evidence
Speaker 2: again with a fresh set of eyes. But detective Zinsky
Speaker 2: was nothing of the kind. And all he really did
Speaker 2: was he he opened up a case file, and he
Speaker 2: developed some film that hadn't been developed yet, and then
Speaker 2: he he just reiterated the official star that Kirk Cobain
Speaker 2: had committed suicide. The thing about Sky's he got on,
Speaker 2: he got on television and he actually he admitted that that, uh,
Speaker 2: the city of Seattle had never seen a level of
Speaker 2: heroin in uh in in in someone's uh in a
Speaker 2: deceased body as high as Kirk obins. They they had
Speaker 2: never seen it in in their lives. And he made
Speaker 2: several statements that they're like that. That that undermined the
Speaker 2: case for homicide. It was a very bizarre interview. Uh
Speaker 2: he really you know, shot himself in the foot in
Speaker 2: the in the department, in the foot for that matter.
Speaker 2: And then he did a ritten report follow up and
Speaker 2: he's trying to explain why the shotgun shell was found
Speaker 2: on the opposite side of the body where it should
Speaker 2: have been found. And he claimed he came up with
Speaker 2: this theory that the shotgun uh pivoted or rotated after
Speaker 2: being fired, so uh, you know it would sort of
Speaker 2: flip over and and ejected shotgun show and then flip
Speaker 2: back up like a one degrees. It's it didn't make
Speaker 2: any sense. So the I didn't understand what how the
Speaker 2: shotgun could pivot. I've buyed shotguns before and they do
Speaker 2: not pivot from there being fired and or rotate. And
Speaker 2: so I called the police officer who gave this analysis,
Speaker 2: Officer Wilson, myself an officer Kurt Wilson, and I said,
Speaker 2: you know you gave this, You performed this analysis of
Speaker 2: the shotgun for Textorsznisky. Can you tell me exactly what
Speaker 2: you meant by this? And he said, oh, you know,
Speaker 2: actually I didn't mean that the shotgun pivoted. I just meant,
Speaker 2: you know, the shotgun was probably just ejected into directly
Speaker 2: into his mouth and then the force of gravity would
Speaker 2: have had it rotated one hundred and eighty degrees after
Speaker 2: it was fired. But he told me, he admitted to me,
Speaker 2: I just looked at a couple of photograph and I
Speaker 2: just you know, that was your speculation on my product.
Speaker 2: So that was pretty much the extent of the ballistics
Speaker 2: they did of the re examination of the evidence. It
Speaker 2: was a very cursory, quick re examined of the examiner
Speaker 2: re examination of the evidence. Uh. And the Seattle Police admitted,
Speaker 2: fully admitted that today. So you know, it's it's they're
Speaker 2: they're trying to make it look like they uh you know,
Speaker 2: went over it with a fine toothcomb, but not at all.
Speaker 2: So this is a case that is uh still haunting them.
Speaker 2: We have made a little headway with the Seattle Police
Speaker 2: Department lately. I can't get too much into that. We
Speaker 2: have had a few part more positive signs from them recently, uh,
Speaker 2: some members of the Seattle Police Department. So I'm optimistic
Speaker 2: about that. I think they know that this this story
Speaker 2: is not going to go away. So I'm actually more
Speaker 2: recently and I'm actually encouraged to hear from the Bastie.
Speaker 6: Well, that's very encouraging and very interesting to hear, and
Speaker 6: I'm sure that there'll be more to this story. It
Speaker 6: certainly seems like it. And I applaud the effort from
Speaker 6: you and Tom to get this story out because this
Speaker 6: is something that it's a very very compelling argument to
Speaker 6: provide all of the Again, like I said, it's not
Speaker 6: a tenuous connection between all of these things. You provide
Speaker 6: all of the information, and it's very interesting and exciting
Speaker 6: story to see all the major figures in this, like
Speaker 6: you say, David Geffen and Harvey Levin, and so it's
Speaker 6: just chock full of all the kinds of people that
Speaker 6: you read about, and then it's just crazy connection that
Speaker 6: they have with Courtney Love. I want to thank you
Speaker 6: very much for coming on and talking about the mysterious
Speaker 6: death of Kurt Cobain suicide or murder. If people are
Speaker 6: more interested, there's there a Facebook page and a website.
Speaker 6: Tell us a little bit about how people might look
Speaker 6: into this further.
Speaker 2: Well, you can put the book on Amazon Kindle, and
Speaker 2: that the website cobaincase dot com is a good place
Speaker 2: to go if you want to see some of the
Speaker 2: evidence and hear some of the actual audio recordings that
Speaker 2: Tom Grant made with Court and Glove, so you can
Speaker 2: judge for the evidence for yourself. And I think when
Speaker 2: people do that. I've never known anyone who didn't hear
Speaker 2: the recordings for themselves, who didn't who didn't come away convinced,
Speaker 2: So I encourage people to do so.
Speaker 6: Absolutely well. I want to thank you very much for
Speaker 6: coming on and talking about this very fine book, The
Speaker 6: Mysterious Death of Kurt Cobain. Thank you very much, Matthew,
Speaker 6: you have a great evening.
Speaker 2: Good night you too, Thank you very much, appreciate it.
Speaker 2: Good Asso,