Speaker 1: I'm Ali. I came out after twenty years of marriage
Speaker 1: and I have three kids.
Speaker 2: I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
Speaker 2: out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 1: This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
Speaker 1: and victories that come with it.
Speaker 2: When coming out feels like the end of the world,
Speaker 2: but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 1: This is the Lesbian Chronicles, partly because.
Speaker 3: It's my brand as well.
Speaker 4: My brand is your brand.
Speaker 3: My brand is your brand.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Lesbian Chronicles, where Melissa and I rise
Speaker 1: and fall together, have one hundred. When you're losing, I'm losing.
Speaker 4: The ship's sinking.
Speaker 1: Ship is sinking. We're both and we're bailing the water
Speaker 1: out together.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: Anyway, So Chicago, you had a fucking blast I did.
Speaker 4: It was great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a great city.
Speaker 2: It reminded me a lot of Atlanta, like a bigger Atlanta,
Speaker 2: like just diversity, Like everybody's really nice. There's just so
Speaker 2: many different things to do. It's really pretty. The weather
Speaker 2: was great, so it was a lot of fun. And
Speaker 2: met up with one of our listeners, Shannon. Thank you
Speaker 2: showing me around. I hear she's going to come visit
Speaker 2: us here.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she was a blastman. And we went to Whiskey
Speaker 2: Girl Tavern. It was a really fun little bar and
Speaker 2: a listener who will remain nameless. I got to meet
Speaker 2: her and her wonderful wife there. How did show you,
Speaker 2: I don't know, other than following like on Instagram and stuff,
Speaker 2: but it definitely made me feel pretty cool. But they
Speaker 2: were so sweet and I appreciated them coming over and
Speaker 2: talking with us and everything. And uh yeah, and I
Speaker 2: got to go see a show at Second City, which
Speaker 2: was so cool. The improv those people are just brilliant.
Speaker 2: I know, it blows my mind.
Speaker 4: To watch improv.
Speaker 2: These people just are so quick with it. It's so
Speaker 2: different than stand up comedy, where it's you know, curated
Speaker 2: and written previously.
Speaker 4: Like all the jokes. But and the river walk was fun.
Speaker 2: Like I sat there like a you know, little kid,
Speaker 2: watching the boats go by, And have you ever been
Speaker 2: there and watched them do this like with the drawbridges
Speaker 2: and stuff.
Speaker 1: I don't know about the draw bridges, but I've spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time in Chicago, so.
Speaker 2: Right along the riverfront there there's all these like there's
Speaker 2: a bunch of tour boats going by and just regular boats,
Speaker 2: but any of the tall ships they have to wait
Speaker 2: for the drawbridge.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so they can go under.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And so like it's this whole process of like setting
Speaker 2: off the alarms and like lifting up the bridge and
Speaker 2: then they have to like wait in between for the
Speaker 2: next bridge to open.
Speaker 4: So I sat there for far too long watching this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was just so fun and like this group
Speaker 2: of friends pulled up on like their boat and just
Speaker 2: kind of hung out right there at the at the
Speaker 2: riverfront and waiting for the next strawbridge to come up.
Speaker 4: It was just like probably one.
Speaker 2: Of the most leisurely activities I've ever seen, because it's
Speaker 2: just like you don't have anywhere to be, you can
Speaker 2: wait for the next bridge.
Speaker 4: Totally.
Speaker 1: No, it's a great, great city. The food is delicious. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's easy to get around, like h l from.
Speaker 4: The airport into the city.
Speaker 1: It was like it's also like it's the Midwest, which
Speaker 1: I know I have my feelings about this, but I'm Midwestern,
Speaker 1: and to me, like, you know, there's something about Midwest people.
Speaker 3: I rarely meet one that I don't like.
Speaker 1: It's like real realness versus like Southern I've lived there
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time in New York City.
Speaker 3: I'm from the Midwest, and now I'm in the South.
Speaker 1: I can tell you they the Midwest these are really
Speaker 1: real nice people. The South is fake nice. The Midwest
Speaker 1: is real nice, and the Northeast is they just don't
Speaker 1: give a shit about you.
Speaker 4: I just to someone like that exact thing.
Speaker 2: I'm like, Southerners, They're gonna be nice to you, but
Speaker 2: it's like backhanded nice. Oh my god, Yeah, Midwesterners are
Speaker 2: like kind they would there the shirt off their back totally.
Speaker 1: That is my neighborhood growing up, That is my family,
Speaker 1: that is all my friends. There wasn't this like culture
Speaker 1: of keep up. It was just like genuinely goodness in
Speaker 1: a way that like I haven't seen in a place
Speaker 1: that I've lived before, besides maybe my neighborhood. Like I
Speaker 1: do feel that from my neighbors. But I would say
Speaker 1: Atlanta as a whole. I love Atlanta and I'm never leaving,
Speaker 1: So this isn't a dig on Atlanta. But I will
Speaker 1: say that, like Southerners in general, I don't find like
Speaker 1: religious kindness sometimes to me doesn't feel real right, Like
Speaker 1: it feels like a little bit like I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like I don't. It's just there's a there's a symptom
Speaker 1: here that I don't totally trust.
Speaker 4: They're they're just trying to I get one more step
Speaker 4: closer to heaven.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they want to get past they want to get
Speaker 1: a posse upstairs.
Speaker 4: Like you know, I really fed up a couple of
Speaker 4: years ago. I better make for.
Speaker 1: It, it's true, or even just like how are you
Speaker 1: like all this like bullshit back and forth, where like
Speaker 1: I just they don't have that in the midwak.
Speaker 4: I struggle with that so much to Yeah, that's small
Speaker 4: talk kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And my mom when I moved here, I did okay,
Speaker 1: so I was a physical therapy major and that was
Speaker 1: my degree, and I did a clinical internship in Atlanta,
Speaker 1: and I when I decided to stay here my parents,
Speaker 1: who are from d C but then reload to Indiana.
Speaker 1: My mom was like, I just want you to know,
Speaker 1: like I, the South is not the Midwest like you
Speaker 1: it's clicky. These women are not going to be accepting
Speaker 1: the way that they are where we live, Like, it's
Speaker 1: not you're not in Indiana anymore when you go to Atlanta.
Speaker 1: And I remember being like, that's the silliest thing I've
Speaker 1: ever heard. But then when I got here, I did.
Speaker 1: It took me a minute and then I was fine.
Speaker 1: But there is like a demographic and maybe this is
Speaker 1: true everywhere, but like as a mom, here I had
Speaker 1: my solid group. But I wouldn't say that like they
Speaker 1: are the nicest demographic. Like there's a cut throatness here
Speaker 1: that we did not have in my hometown.
Speaker 4: It's a little mean girls.
Speaker 3: It's a little mean girls.
Speaker 4: Like yeah, that whole Like, what is it? I think
Speaker 4: you're really pretty? Oh? Thank you? Oh so you agree?
Speaker 4: You think you're really pretty?
Speaker 1: Ohen does the best rendition of that I have? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I speak of my gun.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, it cracks me out so true.
Speaker 1: But I love Atlanta here.
Speaker 4: I am.
Speaker 3: I'm never leaving like I love it here.
Speaker 4: I know that's just it. So I think that's part
Speaker 4: of it.
Speaker 2: Is like Chicago reminded me of Atlanta, but like Atlanta
Speaker 2: is so like it's much smaller that I like it better.
Speaker 2: You know, I can say it's sprawling for sure, but
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's just like a little bit like
Speaker 2: things are a little closer together.
Speaker 1: All tend the city don't sleep on is Chattanooga.
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I was just thinking about this today because I want
Speaker 2: to find somewhere to take my kids this summer, and
Speaker 2: like their summer is so packed with camps and all
Speaker 2: this stuff, and I was like, why am I not
Speaker 2: doing Chattanooga. It's like right in the street.
Speaker 1: I am telling you, like, don't sleep on it. You
Speaker 1: can live in the mountains with a river rushing by
Speaker 1: for like nothing compared to here.
Speaker 4: It is. Almost got a job there like years ago.
Speaker 3: And their downtown is awesome.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and their aquariums great, Like.
Speaker 1: The aquarium's great, Like I just I the hiking is great,
Speaker 1: It's amazing.
Speaker 3: It's a great city.
Speaker 2: I think that's what we're going to do because I've
Speaker 2: been looking for somewhere that's like not too far so expensive,
Speaker 2: doesn't take a lot of time because we don't have
Speaker 2: enough time.
Speaker 4: But I think that's what I'm going to look into.
Speaker 2: So it's anyone has recommendations on what to do with
Speaker 2: kids there, because I was the other thing, a lot
Speaker 2: of people were so helpful about my Chicago trip with
Speaker 2: sending recommds, like I had lists of stuff and I
Speaker 2: could even.
Speaker 4: Do it all, like yeah, it was too much yeah.
Speaker 2: So many of the restaurants too, were booked up, so
Speaker 2: I'd kind of dropped the ball on the restaurant thing.
Speaker 2: But I did have a deep dish pizza that's gonna
Speaker 2: live in my, like my brain forever.
Speaker 1: What was it called?
Speaker 4: That was the place called gir Donno's.
Speaker 2: I think it was okay, sure if I'm saying that right,
Speaker 2: but yeah, probably like the top one, I guess.
Speaker 4: Yeah. But they had a personal pan.
Speaker 2: It was adorable and it was like the perfect size
Speaker 2: for me just being solo.
Speaker 3: You know, I love pizza.
Speaker 4: Yeah, dude, this pizza was so fucking good.
Speaker 1: What's your like eat meal? Like, if you if you
Speaker 1: could have one meal the last supper, what would it be?
Speaker 4: Oh man, that's a tough one.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 4: Ah, it would be such a mixture though.
Speaker 2: It would be like seafood and sushi and then like mashed.
Speaker 4: Potatoes, like deep dish pizza. Yeah, it would be a
Speaker 4: mess of food. So yeah, what about you? Would that
Speaker 4: be pizza?
Speaker 1: I don't mean my favorite thing dat is girl cheese
Speaker 1: and tomato soup. But that can be very disappointing, Like
Speaker 1: if people don't use enough butter, they use the wrong
Speaker 1: kind of bread, so I feel like that's a little
Speaker 1: bit hard because I would have to make sure that
Speaker 1: it's a very if that's my last one, who's making
Speaker 1: it and how are they doing it? But who's making
Speaker 1: my sandwich? But otherwise, pizza, for sure, I love pizza.
Speaker 1: Bad pizza is good.
Speaker 2: Tomato soup with some Greek yogurt instead of sour cream, yes,
Speaker 2: so freaking good.
Speaker 1: Okay, I've got to remember that. Let's get into our
Speaker 1: topic today.
Speaker 2: It's funny you sent me this voice memo and you're like,
Speaker 2: I'm reading a book, and then you're like, I'm not
Speaker 2: reading a book. I'm listening to it, and I do
Speaker 2: a lot of time. I know, I'm like, why do
Speaker 2: I feel like a liar?
Speaker 4: I'm still taking the information.
Speaker 1: It's the same thing, Reese Witherspoon says, it's the exact
Speaker 1: same thing.
Speaker 2: I feel like I have to like confess to my sin.
Speaker 2: And I'm listening to the book and not listening.
Speaker 1: To the book. Well, the truth about my life right
Speaker 1: now is if I don't listen to the book, I'm
Speaker 1: not doing the book because I don't have an hour
Speaker 1: to sit in my bed reading and I'm kind of
Speaker 1: I'm realizing a slow reader. Like somebody told me how
Speaker 1: long it took them to read our book club Book Strangers,
Speaker 1: and it was like a fraction of what it took me.
Speaker 4: So I mean that's just it with a With an audiobook,
Speaker 4: sometimes I'll speed it up.
Speaker 1: I always speed it up.
Speaker 2: So it's like, yeah, you're going through it so fast,
Speaker 2: but like, I don't know, it's almost like my brain
Speaker 2: processes it better.
Speaker 1: This is the problem. This is the social media problem.
Speaker 2: Like because I have a thing, I zone out and
Speaker 2: I start thinking of other things.
Speaker 4: But yeah, like audiobooks, I can do other stuff.
Speaker 2: I can clean, I can go for a walk whatever
Speaker 2: it's it's killing two birds with one stone.
Speaker 1: So totally. And I can work like my work. I
Speaker 1: can get in the zone and have a book going.
Speaker 1: Oh really yeah, that's once I know what I'm doing
Speaker 1: on a design, Like, once I'm clear of what the
Speaker 1: direction it's going. A lot of it is just I've
Speaker 1: done it so many times that I can put it
Speaker 1: together pretty With the books going, it's actually kind of
Speaker 1: a lovely eience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like a lovely way.
Speaker 1: Like if I get into what do they call it
Speaker 1: the flow state? Yeah, if I get into a flow
Speaker 1: state on a design, I realize, like I do love
Speaker 1: my job.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like it's amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like you finish and you're like, wow, this is
Speaker 1: going to look so good. And then and then I
Speaker 1: get to pick who like renders it, and so like,
Speaker 1: if I'm really excited about it, I'll pick somebody that
Speaker 1: I know is going to just like crush it.
Speaker 3: Yeah anyway, but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so what got me on this. I'm going through,
Speaker 1: as you know, probably more intimately than anyone, probably the
Speaker 1: hardest time ever that I've ever had. I know, people
Speaker 1: like she's been saying that for two years, but.
Speaker 5: She called me yesterday and I'm like, hello, I just
Speaker 5: want you to know that I'm having anxiety, like serious
Speaker 5: anxiety right now.
Speaker 1: Okay, it's so bad that I have to like verbalize it.
Speaker 3: I know, like it's a pit in my stomach, but
Speaker 3: it's like.
Speaker 1: The worst it's ever been I've got.
Speaker 4: Okay, do you have the feeling?
Speaker 2: This happens to me a lot when I'm waking up,
Speaker 2: And it happened the other day, like ahead of when
Speaker 2: I woke up Sunday morning in Chicago.
Speaker 4: My flight's note until four in the afternoon.
Speaker 2: But I'm waking up and I had this anxiety go
Speaker 2: through my body like a wave and it hurts like physicals. Yeah,
Speaker 2: if it's because I'm worried about the flight or what,
Speaker 2: but I hate it. It's physically painful.
Speaker 3: It's physically painful.
Speaker 1: And I would say, like, I know people are like
Speaker 1: she's been saying this for so long, but it's reaching
Speaker 1: like fever pitch. I the other day it was like
Speaker 1: a burning in my chest that I somebody was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's your hurt, Like, that's your hurt, that's this, that's
Speaker 1: so it's just yeah, I'm like, I know.
Speaker 4: You're like, my chest hurts. I'm like, does your left
Speaker 4: arm hurt?
Speaker 1: Let's attention to that seriously. But I saw I was
Speaker 1: telling a friend this. Okay, a long time ago, Tatum
Speaker 1: went through something and she read this book When Things
Speaker 1: Fall Apart, and Tatum like read this book and got
Speaker 1: so much out of it. And I remember thinking, like, noted,
Speaker 1: like she read this book, and she she she would
Speaker 1: keep coming to me. You know when you read a
Speaker 1: book that's got so much good stuff that you're like
Speaker 1: have to tell somebody. So she kept like calling me
Speaker 1: and being like and this like this makes so much
Speaker 1: sense and but you know she's she's a twenty and
Speaker 1: I'm not. So I was like, okay, it's a twenty
Speaker 1: year old reading this book. But then in going through
Speaker 1: what I'm going through right now, a feeling of like
Speaker 1: I would say, if I had to identify the feelings,
Speaker 1: it's shame, fear, and loss. Okay, if I really had to,
Speaker 1: like all big, all happening at once. And so a
Speaker 1: friend of mine was like, you really have to read
Speaker 1: this book When Things Fall Apart, like you'll you'll get
Speaker 1: this book when you need this book. And I think
Speaker 1: you need this book. And I remember Tatum reading the book,
Speaker 1: so I was like, wow, that's interesting. So then I
Speaker 1: go to go to bed, and you know, I do
Speaker 1: yoga nidras pretty much every night, and the yoga nidra
Speaker 1: lady at the beginning says an excerpt from When Things
Speaker 1: Fall Apart, like she reads part of it, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: this is now weird, Like now three people at this
Speaker 1: stage have told me I need to read it. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I started it and I'm already like halfway done because
Speaker 1: I'm listening to it. But there was so much in
Speaker 1: this life stage that I'm in, and some pieces of
Speaker 1: what you're going through. And another one of our friends
Speaker 1: is kind of in a battle right now that I
Speaker 1: feel like so much resonated with me. And I'm only
Speaker 1: halfway through, so I've got a long way to go.
Speaker 1: But what I would love to do is just bring
Speaker 1: up some of the larger topics and then have you,
Speaker 1: kind of, as someone who hasn't read this book, talk
Speaker 1: about it a little bit, just from like your perspective
Speaker 1: in your own life. Yeah, some of it's going to
Speaker 1: be relatable. Some of it is. And I just took
Speaker 1: some like very general notes and other people I'm sure
Speaker 1: have read it because it's I think it's a pretty
Speaker 1: popular book, and some of the stuff we've talked.
Speaker 3: About but just not really delved in on.
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of the teachings in this
Speaker 1: book are based on Buddhism, which I don't know anything about.
Speaker 4: Do you. I know a little bit about it.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting to me that like these things are
Speaker 2: kind of presenting themselves to you because I feel like
Speaker 2: this happens when you really need something, when like the
Speaker 2: universe is saying, like stop what you're doing, and like
Speaker 2: think about these things, Like this is going to show
Speaker 2: you the way that you need to move forward. And
Speaker 2: I felt that so tremendously with coming out, Like Brene
Speaker 2: Brown was such a huge catalyst for me in that situation.
Speaker 2: I kept she kept popping up in my world, and
Speaker 2: it was just like it was that push that I
Speaker 2: needed to like move forward. So I think the fact
Speaker 2: that this has like shown up for you so many times,
Speaker 2: it's like you need, you need this right now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And they're even like parts of it, Like I
Speaker 1: was starting to listen to one chapter and it was
Speaker 1: like too hard to hear, so I stopped it until
Speaker 1: my run this morning, and then I put it back
Speaker 1: on and I was more able to deal with it.
Speaker 3: But where it really got interesting for.
Speaker 1: Me is this topic of like do no harm and
Speaker 1: whether that's to yourself for other people, but essentially, like
Speaker 1: when you're in a state of unrest and you're feeling
Speaker 1: like I have to go left or I have to
Speaker 1: go right, you can't just like sit in that discomfort
Speaker 1: because you're panicked of like those feelings, and so you're
Speaker 1: like trying to pick one thing or the other or
Speaker 1: trying to make a decision. She compared it to like
Speaker 1: if you're meditating and you're sitting in a position for
Speaker 1: a long time, you know, your leg might start to
Speaker 1: hurt and it gets really uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: And you have to move. But you move and then
Speaker 3: what happens.
Speaker 1: You're uncomfortable again in twenty minutes or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: So she was talking about how a lot of times
Speaker 1: people in these situations where they can't just sit in
Speaker 1: what she also called like the path of the warrior,
Speaker 1: which is like sitting in that space and just not
Speaker 1: going left or right. Like for me, it was like
Speaker 1: a panic of like I have to like get locked
Speaker 1: down this thing because I'm panicked about this other thing.
Speaker 1: It's like, instead just like being there, because when you
Speaker 1: do the reach and you're grasping, which I've been doing,
Speaker 1: it's you're doing harm not just to me, but I'm
Speaker 1: doing harm to other people at this point. And so
Speaker 1: that kind of spoke to me that like kind of
Speaker 1: a softer approach is just to sit in it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and that's the hard part because like what
Speaker 2: it reminds me of is like in a pool, if
Speaker 2: you're swimming, you're goal is to get to the edge.
Speaker 2: Right here in the middle of the pool. It's a
Speaker 2: lot more difficult to tread water in the middle of
Speaker 2: the pool. You want to reach for the solid edge. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but you've got to sit in the middle of the
Speaker 2: fucking pool and tread water for a little bit because
Speaker 2: you can't continue to reach for that ledge because it
Speaker 2: is impacting other people you know or you. You also
Speaker 2: need to learn how to like just do it on
Speaker 2: your own sometimes totally.
Speaker 1: And I think like her biggest takeaway for that treading
Speaker 1: in the middle is you can have short term gain
Speaker 1: by grabbing the ledge, but if you always get short
Speaker 1: term gain, you will have long term misery, like because
Speaker 1: you can't. You've got to learn to do the thing,
Speaker 1: to just sit there and be lonely or be mad
Speaker 1: or be uncomfortable, which it made me think too. Like
Speaker 1: I called you yesterday just to say, Hey, just letting
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like riddled with anxiety no reason.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry that I'm laughing about this, but but I
Speaker 2: mean you you you used.
Speaker 1: To do that more. I feel like you've kind of
Speaker 1: grown a little in this way. Oh thanks, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean I don't I hear. I mean, I know you're
Speaker 1: suffering sometimes, but I do think you've pulled yourself out
Speaker 1: and spent some way more time alone than you ever
Speaker 1: have in the past six months.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, it's like i've but it's also like
Speaker 2: it's been a culmination of the past three years of
Speaker 2: like not feeling steady, you know, but also realizing like
Speaker 2: I can't keep using the ledge of the pool yes
Speaker 2: to feel steady because it's impacting other people, Like I
Speaker 2: have to just learn to be like it's okay, Like
Speaker 2: I don't I can sit with it.
Speaker 4: You know. If I get a text that is upsetting,
Speaker 4: I don't need.
Speaker 2: To reply right away, Like I can sit with it
Speaker 2: for a minute and decide how I want to move
Speaker 2: forward with that information. It doesn't need to be something
Speaker 2: that I like fire off about that really it escalates
Speaker 2: my anxiety to do so, or like I don't need
Speaker 2: to let that one text be like the end of
Speaker 2: the world, because most of the time it's not.
Speaker 1: He never is.
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's like sometimes stuff is said that that's
Speaker 2: hurtful or feels permanent and you want to like panic,
Speaker 2: but you just I don't know, I've just learned that like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this isn't permanent, and if it is, then maybe that's for.
Speaker 1: The best, right Or that feeling of just like you're
Speaker 1: being judged or like you have a scarlet letter.
Speaker 3: That like you want to immediately like defend your honor.
Speaker 1: And it's just I've also gotten to a place of like,
Speaker 1: and my mom said this to me, people know your
Speaker 1: body of work or they don't. And if they don't,
Speaker 1: then what do you worried about?
Speaker 3: Like, truly, what are you worried about?
Speaker 4: And I don't.
Speaker 1: I couldn't answer her. I don't know what I'm worried about.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think a lot of it is that
Speaker 2: in this age of social media and putting yourself out
Speaker 2: there constantly and constantly looking for some kind of validation,
Speaker 2: be it through the Internet or just within your social circle.
Speaker 4: It's like your friends offer you validation.
Speaker 2: It says I'm a good person because these people like me, right,
Speaker 2: you know. And when it feels like things are off kilter,
Speaker 2: or maybe like a friend's a little busy so you
Speaker 2: don't hear from them as often, it's like you go
Speaker 2: into that feeling of lack or like that you're losing them,
Speaker 2: or that something's.
Speaker 4: Happened that they don't like you.
Speaker 2: But really it's maybe e they're busy, or they're dealing
Speaker 2: with their own shit, you know, right, or maybe you
Speaker 2: did say something that they didn't like, you know, so.
Speaker 4: They've pulled back. But it's also like it doesn't have
Speaker 4: to be solved right now.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be solved. And I think too,
Speaker 1: like sometimes there does need to be ya shed it
Speaker 1: Like it's not always that every you know, I think
Speaker 1: I'm so fearful of like abandonment because of what I've
Speaker 1: come through that I'm like, I hold onto things far
Speaker 1: too long. Yeah, And even though I'm tough on people,
Speaker 1: like I would say I'm tougher than you are on
Speaker 1: my expectation of people. But if somebody has been in
Speaker 1: my circle a long time I'm in, I care about them,
Speaker 1: then I'm going to make the effort. But there are
Speaker 1: some people that I just I needed to relinquish probably
Speaker 1: a year ago, and just couldn't for whatever reason. And
Speaker 1: I think it's like it's okay. I guess it doesn't
Speaker 1: make them bad or me bad. It's like it's just
Speaker 1: okay to shit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And sometimes that's just it. It's like played itself
Speaker 4: out or whatever.
Speaker 2: And I think the whole like holding onto stuff longer
Speaker 2: than you you should have, Like I'm.
Speaker 4: Notorious for doing that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that a lot of it is
Speaker 2: coming from the fact of like leaving these very secure marriages,
Speaker 2: and then it's like you're jumping into the off a bridge,
Speaker 2: but you don't know where you're gonna land totally, and
Speaker 2: it's like we're constantly like waiting for that landing spot.
Speaker 2: And so it's like when someone does feel like a
Speaker 2: little safe, a little like they could be it, it's
Speaker 2: like you're going to cling to it.
Speaker 1: Because I mean, she talks about that too, like it's
Speaker 1: like you need to get to a place. It's so cliche,
Speaker 1: but get safe in your own and that only comes
Speaker 1: from being in the middle and not searching for what
Speaker 1: she calls entertainment, not searching for the ledge not you know,
Speaker 1: I even expressed to you this weekend there are a
Speaker 1: lot of social plans and it's like I've sort of
Speaker 1: said to myself, I'm I'm getting a little quieter. So
Speaker 1: that doesn't work. If I'm saying I'm going to get
Speaker 1: a little quieter, I shouldn't be showing up for everything.
Speaker 1: I need to sit in that middle and practice that.
Speaker 1: And that's for entertainment, it's really because.
Speaker 2: Because it's it's also a source of validation to have
Speaker 2: those plans, you know, And I.
Speaker 4: Think it's kind of like the whole thing where people.
Speaker 2: Are like, you have to love yourself before you can,
Speaker 2: you know, love anyone else, which has always just sounded
Speaker 2: like such bs to me because I'm like, of course
Speaker 2: I love myself.
Speaker 4: I take care of myself. Yeah, you know, like I
Speaker 4: want need to be here.
Speaker 2: But I think what that really means is you love
Speaker 2: yourself enough to not need the validation from everybody else
Speaker 2: around you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, and be able to be uncomfortable and not
Speaker 1: fill it with going to a movie or going to
Speaker 1: a thing, just be here. Yeah, So she said, basically
Speaker 1: in that like sitting in that you you want to
Speaker 1: act quickly, and basically underneath all that moving around, that
Speaker 1: restlessness is usually just fear. It's literally like if you
Speaker 1: just pull it all apart, it's like get very clear
Speaker 1: in that time. I mean, maybe right about it, what
Speaker 1: am I really scared of? And I'm trying to answer
Speaker 1: that for myself. I don't necessarily know. I mean I
Speaker 1: can say some surface things I'm scared of, but do
Speaker 1: you ever think about that, like what am I really
Speaker 1: scared of?
Speaker 3: Like what's the worst thing that could happen.
Speaker 2: I mean, I can tell you what we're scared of,
Speaker 2: at least what I'm scared of. And I think what
Speaker 2: you're scared of is like being alone forever, never finding
Speaker 2: something that was as comparable and secure as our marriages. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, we left something that would have lasted forever
Speaker 2: having not been for our sexuality.
Speaker 4: It's true, and that is to no fault of our own,
Speaker 4: you know. I mean I could have stayed.
Speaker 2: I could have stayed and stayed really uncomfortable in my
Speaker 2: body for the rest of my life.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, but it just get one life. You get one.
Speaker 2: I can't do this again, at least not that I'm
Speaker 2: going to remember, you know. And so it's like we
Speaker 2: did that hard, hard thing not knowing again. You're jumping
Speaker 2: off the bridge not know where you're going to land,
Speaker 2: and we still don't know where we're going to land.
Speaker 4: Yeah, we still don't.
Speaker 1: We still don't know where we're going to land. I
Speaker 1: think that's that's what's really hard, is because I hate
Speaker 1: not knowing. My personality wants to know. I want to
Speaker 1: I'm a hyper vigilant person saying I want to know.
Speaker 2: So I'm I'm the person like as a kid. When
Speaker 2: I would get a book, I would read it for
Speaker 2: a little bit, and then I'd always go to the
Speaker 2: end because I needed to know that, like everyone survived,
Speaker 2: it's gonna happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, does that I live? And then I can
Speaker 1: enjoy this book.
Speaker 4: And then I can enjoy the book. I was not
Speaker 4: patient enough.
Speaker 2: And now in the day and age where we've got
Speaker 2: Google and chat GBT and you can like essentially find
Speaker 2: answers to pretty much everything totally. The one thing you
Speaker 2: can't do you don't know the answer. Maybe you go
Speaker 2: see a tarot reader or like a psychic or something.
Speaker 4: Maybe that would give you.
Speaker 1: Some Are you saying that because you know I am
Speaker 1: going to one?
Speaker 4: No, Okay, well.
Speaker 1: Let's finish this and then I'll tell you tomorrow.
Speaker 3: I have met with a medium.
Speaker 1: Shut up, recommended by the same person who recommended the book.
Speaker 3: But let's go to the analogy she gave was on
Speaker 3: a lake.
Speaker 1: If you throw a rock in the lake, you can't
Speaker 1: see the bottom, Like if you're constantly moving and there's
Speaker 1: so much ripples from a storm in the lake, it's
Speaker 1: all jumbled up and you can't see. It's only like
Speaker 1: when things completely settle that you can.
Speaker 3: See what's underneath all that.
Speaker 1: So that was the analogy she gave of just sitting
Speaker 1: in that calm, get out of the storm, sit in
Speaker 1: the calm, and identify what's under there.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that's that's what I'm working on
Speaker 3: right now. I'm just trying to like not grab for anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's hard. Okay, Yeah, we talked
Speaker 1: about grasping for that short term ledge or pleasure is
Speaker 1: going to be long term hell, because you're never going
Speaker 1: to be able to not grasp. You're going to always
Speaker 1: be searching, and it's just that only creates a lifetime
Speaker 1: of problem. And then she also said that I thought
Speaker 1: this was really good, is you have more tenderness for
Speaker 1: the human race when you have had these like painful things,
Speaker 1: Like I do look at myself as a good friend
Speaker 1: because I am, like, I'm very imperfect. I'm very I
Speaker 1: don't know, like I've been through a few things, even
Speaker 1: my mom's like alcoholism. I'm I wouldn't take it back, honestly,
Speaker 1: Like it's taught me a lot of things. That's the
Speaker 1: way I show up. It's good and bad, but there's
Speaker 1: a lot of good to it too, So I don't
Speaker 1: know like I think about I think about that as well,
Speaker 1: Like you you have more tenderness when you're and grace
Speaker 1: for people.
Speaker 4: Right, And I think that's that's another thing.
Speaker 2: It's like the gift of realizing later in life and
Speaker 2: coming out and all that stuff. It's it pushes us
Speaker 2: to look deeper at ourselves.
Speaker 4: And I know I ever would have for sure, I.
Speaker 2: Didn't do therapy prior to any of this. I didn't
Speaker 2: self reflect on my actions. Like ever, if me and
Speaker 2: my ex husband had an argument, I wasn't gonna sit
Speaker 2: there and be like, well, why did that happen?
Speaker 1: Is that there is to believe me, I never even
Speaker 1: occurred to me. Never even occurred to me.
Speaker 4: No, So yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's true. It's like
Speaker 4: I never But.
Speaker 2: Now if I had an argument, it does feel like that,
Speaker 2: you know, with the people that I've been with in
Speaker 2: the past, no fault to them.
Speaker 4: It's my own insecurity, my own fear.
Speaker 1: Of not being able to just sit in that middle ground.
Speaker 1: And she would say that that's like the hook, like
Speaker 1: you vacillate between hope and fear, hope and fear, hope
Speaker 1: and fear.
Speaker 3: And I've watched you and I on that on that
Speaker 3: pendule of just that that's good.
Speaker 1: It's bad. Now I'm scared.
Speaker 4: It's a bad day.
Speaker 5: When we're voting on the same size, it's like, fuck it,
Speaker 5: I guess it's time to light it all on fire exactly.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 1: But I feel that, like I feel like I'm on
Speaker 1: that hooked hope fear, hope fear, and it's like I
Speaker 1: just want to get to a place that like that's abandoned,
Speaker 1: like it's I don't know.
Speaker 4: What you've thought anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not even a thought anymore. So that is
Speaker 1: my work. I am going to a medium that's amazing.
Speaker 1: I believe it because you know, I'm such a like
Speaker 1: that's like I'm just.
Speaker 4: Right, Oh my god, this is going to be great. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, I haven't. I've it's been a few years
Speaker 4: since I saw one.
Speaker 1: Okay, you've done it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've done it like three times.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, where did you find? Like did someone recommend one?
Speaker 1: What was the the first one?
Speaker 4: It was like as if I just googled and I
Speaker 4: found one.
Speaker 2: I don't even remember where I drove to. It was
Speaker 2: like somewhere out in like Sandy Springs.
Speaker 1: How do you know.
Speaker 2: I didn't, okay, and like I think she offered to
Speaker 2: do it over the phone at first, and I was
Speaker 2: like no, no, no, no, I need in person like
Speaker 2: and it was very insightful. What she said was very
Speaker 2: much on par with what was happening in my life. Now.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of times where it's like, of course,
Speaker 2: you know, she could have just thrown something out there
Speaker 2: and it landed.
Speaker 4: But and then I.
Speaker 2: Saw one or two different ones within a pretty similar
Speaker 2: span of time that both very much resonated. One of
Speaker 2: them was able to reach a relative who had passed,
Speaker 2: which was really interesting to me.
Speaker 4: Actually, you know what, I'm just I'll just tell this story.
Speaker 2: So my ex husband's mom passed away when just a
Speaker 2: few weeks into me learning that I was pregnant with
Speaker 2: breckin very sudden, like just totally unexpected and really upset
Speaker 2: me a lot because this woman was like my second mom.
Speaker 2: And it also over the years has brought on a
Speaker 2: lot of sadness for me as far as like not
Speaker 2: having her as a grandmother and my kids, like, I
Speaker 2: just know that she would have been thriving with them
Speaker 2: and loved it. So I wanted to like know how
Speaker 2: she was doing and the way that this medium like
Speaker 2: explained the presence was like so spot on with her.
Speaker 4: He was like, she doesn't she's being kind of shy.
Speaker 2: She doesn't want to come forward, and but she she
Speaker 2: wants you to know that wherever the kids are, she's
Speaker 2: there and that she leaves gifts.
Speaker 4: And I was like, that is crazy that he said that, because.
Speaker 2: Her remains are spread in like a part of like
Speaker 2: the California Forest. She used to go camping a lot
Speaker 2: as a child, so that's what she wanted. That's where
Speaker 2: her mom and dad's remains are as well. And a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago, my kids went out there with
Speaker 2: their dad to go just visit the site, and on
Speaker 2: their way back out of the forest, they found a
Speaker 2: bag of legos, just random bag of legos.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Brecon's favorite toy is legos.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm like, that's I have the chills the gift.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, And it's one of those things where
Speaker 2: it's like, I don't know, I can be a pretty
Speaker 2: big skeptic on a lot of things, but like stuff
Speaker 2: like that, I'm like, I don't know, man, that's like
Speaker 2: a little bit too like.
Speaker 1: Much of found the legos right, Like exactly he happened
Speaker 1: to be walking by at the right time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just even like I said, the way that
Speaker 2: he was explaining her of being like she doesn't want to.
Speaker 4: Really, you know, she's shy, Like that's exactly.
Speaker 1: How she was.
Speaker 4: She was shy, she didn't want to be in the spotlight,
Speaker 4: you know, all that stuff.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't know, I think there is you know, sure,
Speaker 2: there's like some smoke and mirrors to it, probably, but
Speaker 2: I feel like you're going to walk away with something
Speaker 2: that really resonates with.
Speaker 1: You and helps, I hope, So I'm excited to do it.
Speaker 1: What also kind of corroborated it is I'm listening to
Speaker 1: have you heard of the Telepathy tapes?
Speaker 4: I feel like I've heard of it that I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you like a high level like synopsis,
Speaker 1: but I learned about it from Katie and our friend group.
Speaker 1: She's like, she knows I listened to a lot of
Speaker 1: podcasts and this is kind of a sciencey podcast, so
Speaker 1: she thought I would like it.
Speaker 3: She loved it.
Speaker 1: And but it's about mother's of kids with autism and
Speaker 1: how if you know somebody with autism, This is like
Speaker 1: fascinating but they were saying how a lot of people
Speaker 1: think kids with autism, like severe autism, nonverbal autism, don't
Speaker 1: like there's nobody in there, or like they don't really
Speaker 1: have the you know, almost like there's nobody, like nobody's listening,
Speaker 1: because they don't think that the person is like really
Speaker 1: in there to understand or to like their language. If
Speaker 1: they're nonverbal, they just don't have it, and cases they're
Speaker 1: written off. But there was a lot of mothers who
Speaker 1: were coming forward and saying, like, I think he's or
Speaker 1: he or she is like reading my mind. It's like
Speaker 1: the mom would say, like I would start to say
Speaker 1: something and then they would type it into If they're nonverbal,
Speaker 1: sometimes they have those typing things that they could type on.
Speaker 1: And she's many moms, not just one mom. Many moms
Speaker 1: were saying that, like it's almost like we have telepathy,
Speaker 1: like he would know what I'm saying, or he would
Speaker 1: go do what I needed him to do before I
Speaker 1: even asked him. And so they did this study that's
Speaker 1: like double blind, where they essentially had a scientist come
Speaker 1: in and a documentary filmmaker who has no skin in
Speaker 1: the game was just filming it and like the mom.
Speaker 1: They would give the mom a word and tell her
Speaker 1: to just think about this random word, and sure enough,
Speaker 1: across the room, the child would type in the word.
Speaker 1: And like it's almost like so unbelievable that you don't
Speaker 1: believe it. But then when you look at who's doing
Speaker 1: this stuff, she's legit. I mean she's a real scientist,
Speaker 1: and the documentary filmmaker is legit. So I started listening
Speaker 1: to just story after story on this telepathy tapes, and
Speaker 1: it made me think, like there are people who have
Speaker 1: and maybe some nonverbal autistic kids developed this other language
Speaker 1: that they can just read or read what you're saying.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It just made me think there are
Speaker 1: people likely that have the ability. We probably had the
Speaker 1: ability at one point to feel that and we just
Speaker 1: grew out of it or we culture, you know, growing up.
Speaker 1: It beats it out of you. All you should listen
Speaker 1: to this, but it does like make you think, I'm
Speaker 1: sure there are people out there.
Speaker 3: I know mediums are different, they're talking to.
Speaker 1: Something else, but they also I think sometimes are they
Speaker 1: feel what's happening with you?
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, you know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean I think there's definitely like an
Speaker 2: energy thing that people omit, you know, yeah, all the time,
Speaker 2: and it's just varies as far as like who can
Speaker 2: read that energy?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 1: So have you ever met someone and like a woman
Speaker 1: that I know would sometimes we would meet people and
Speaker 1: she'd be like, there is like a dark energy there.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I feel that sometimes, you know, and like
Speaker 1: they're scary.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I didn't used to feel that with people. And I
Speaker 4: had someone.
Speaker 2: Early on that I met with like coming out, and
Speaker 2: she was like, I really I can feel people's energies
Speaker 2: like whether.
Speaker 4: Or not as blue or green or red.
Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, but now I'm like, no,
Speaker 2: I do see that.
Speaker 4: Mind.
Speaker 2: I feel like it's more of like the dark versus
Speaker 2: light energy, you know that you feel from different people,
Speaker 2: like and yeah, some people it's.
Speaker 4: Like, oh, like you scare me.
Speaker 1: You scare me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not like in a sense of like I think
Speaker 2: you're gonna like harm me, No, just like from an
Speaker 2: emotional safety standpoint, it feels eric.
Speaker 1: I don't want my life to turn into this, so
Speaker 1: I need to just like keep a little bit of
Speaker 1: healthy distance so we'll see what happens.
Speaker 4: I know, I'm very curious about this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So but yeah, I am this month is entire
Speaker 2: swim team month of June. So we are headed to
Speaker 2: a swim meet here for the emas.
Speaker 3: Okay, well then I'm going to see you Saturday.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2: All right.
Speaker 1: Well everybody, have a good rest of your weekend and
Speaker 1: see you.
Speaker 4: Next week, all right aye.
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Speaker 1: We love listener feedback. If you'd like to share your story,
Speaker 1: email us at Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 3: That's Melissa M. E.
Speaker 1: L I.
Speaker 3: S A and Ali A. L.
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