Speaker 1: Hi, Welcome to the NBA Podcast. My name is Morten Jensen,
Speaker 1: and today we'll be discussing the Gary Trent Junior contract,
Speaker 1: and not because we're celebrating it, but instead because the
Speaker 1: NBA most certainly are not celebrating it and are in
Speaker 1: fact investigating it because that actually makes sense. Then we're
Speaker 1: gonna get into some Adam Silver stuff he talked about recently,
Speaker 1: the second Apron and NBA Europe. So that's what we
Speaker 1: have on the docket for you today and with me
Speaker 1: to cover those subjects. It's my good pal Brian to
Speaker 1: Porik Brian, how are you, Sar?
Speaker 2: I am doing well. How are you more?
Speaker 1: Can complain? Can complain? This is a the first podcast
Speaker 1: in my new apartment. Some of you may know this.
Speaker 1: I went through a recent divorce, so this is my
Speaker 1: new place. And if there's an echo that what isn't
Speaker 1: usually present, it's because I haven't made sure that my
Speaker 1: office is like soundproof yet, which the last one was,
Speaker 1: So it'll come. Give me time like it's it's it's
Speaker 1: a work in progress.
Speaker 2: So far, so good, So let's I'm honored to be
Speaker 2: the first guest in your new apartment. Feels it feels right.
Speaker 1: Feels right? Oh my god, all right, you know what
Speaker 1: doesn't feel right? Sixty four million dollars for Gary trun Junior.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he sure did. You sure did. Yeah, And uh,
Speaker 2: you know, I think everyone when they saw that contract
Speaker 2: immediately jumped to This has to be obvious salary caps
Speaker 2: are convention because Gary Trent Junior is coming off of
Speaker 2: the season where he have bridged eight points, shot below
Speaker 2: forty percent from the field, and his homage to Terry
Speaker 2: Rogier thirty six percent from three just, I mean, just
Speaker 2: an awful season from him overall, had coming off of
Speaker 2: back to back minimum contracts. So it certainly begs the
Speaker 2: question like who was going to offer him at this
Speaker 2: stage of free agency, in particular because he did not
Speaker 2: sign this contract on July first, when there was still
Speaker 2: money to spend, like you know, the the Lakers and
Speaker 2: the Bulls and the Nets have spent a grand majority
Speaker 2: of their cap space and Gary Trent Junior still managed
Speaker 2: to get this deal. I know, Shams is now providing
Speaker 2: cover and saying there was one team that was considering
Speaker 2: a signing trade offer for him at these terms. It
Speaker 2: seems like the NBA, you know, in the Bucks defense,
Speaker 2: the NBA has not concluded anything, but Shams did report
Speaker 2: that they are investigating the contract, which I think, just
Speaker 2: given everything we just said there, I think that's a.
Speaker 1: Reasonable thing for them to do, so I just have
Speaker 1: to get this off my chest. It's funny how this
Speaker 1: only happens when players earn too much. So if Lebron
Speaker 1: signs for the minimum deal, are we going to have
Speaker 1: an investigation there? Not really right, that's just going to
Speaker 1: be fine and Andy Lebron at the men cool A
Speaker 1: guy getting more than what he is like objectively worth,
Speaker 1: that's apparently not cool. I'm just trying to like gauge
Speaker 1: why it's only when the player earns too much that
Speaker 1: we're looking into things.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Lebron is just such an outlier that
Speaker 2: I think he's like just to have to put him
Speaker 2: in an entirely separate bucket. I don't think it's really
Speaker 2: cap circumvention to get him on a minimum or your minimum.
Speaker 2: It's just that's the reality of where he is in
Speaker 2: his career and the teams that he's interested in joining,
Speaker 2: and just kind of the Second Apron and just the
Speaker 2: Apron era in general, that there's not a ton of
Speaker 2: money to spend. I mean if he if he wanted to,
Speaker 2: like he could sign with the Heat. I think they
Speaker 2: do have a portion of their non taxpayer mid level
Speaker 2: left over. The Warriors still have their full non taxpayer
Speaker 2: mid level left over. It could take some manipulating to
Speaker 2: get under the first apron.
Speaker 1: But you know, but you catch my drift though, right,
Speaker 1: Like it's yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's just when a
Speaker 1: guy gets paid. It's like, h it's always when a
Speaker 1: guy gets paid, it gets paid too much. Like I
Speaker 1: hear you though, Like I agreed to some of the
Speaker 1: gregious contract, Like I don't even know what the number
Speaker 1: would have been that would not have made me raise
Speaker 1: an eyebrow, Like I think, what everything anything over five
Speaker 1: million would probably have made me go oh oh. But
Speaker 1: like in fairness, and I'm not trying to like rope
Speaker 1: anyone else into an NBA in thisgation.
Speaker 2: But Kevin Herder, sure, I mean they're a couple. I
Speaker 2: would say there are a couple of contracts that And
Speaker 2: I think that's what's funny about this whole thing is
Speaker 2: like the contract is so bad that the NBA is
Speaker 2: like no, no, no, there there's no logical explanation to
Speaker 2: this contract. I mean, think about like all of the
Speaker 2: terrible contracts that have been handed out across the NBA.
Speaker 2: I mean, like the twenty summer of twenty sixteen is
Speaker 2: the ten year anniversary or that they could investigate it
Speaker 2: basically every one of those damn contracts. But this one
Speaker 2: is the one where like, this is like we're drawing
Speaker 2: the line here. This is so absurd that there is
Speaker 2: just no logical explanation to giving this man this amount
Speaker 2: of money over this many years, unless it's caps are convention.
Speaker 2: It's just it's all very funny. I don't I don't
Speaker 2: necessarily expect the NBA to actually punish the Bucks they
Speaker 2: find clear evidence of it. I mean, that's what you know,
Speaker 2: that's what cost Joe Smith and the Timberwolves back in
Speaker 2: the day. The Kawai stuff maybe will get an answer.
Speaker 2: By twenty twenty eight, there seems to be a plenty
Speaker 2: of circumstantial evidence that there was some cap circumvention going on.
Speaker 2: I mean to be like, I would not have necessarily
Speaker 2: batted as much of an eye at this if it
Speaker 2: was like a two year deal with a second year
Speaker 2: team option, even at that amount of money, or you know,
Speaker 2: a second year non guarantee, because then you could talk
Speaker 2: me into okay, just a balloon deal. They're looking to
Speaker 2: flip it down the line, and you know, that's just
Speaker 2: salary matching. It's the number of years. I think that's
Speaker 2: more of the red flag and the fact that it's
Speaker 2: fully guaranteed. You know, again, it's just hard to reach
Speaker 2: a logical justification for that, And I've seen a lot
Speaker 2: of people say, like, well, who cares. You know, the
Speaker 2: punish is that they have to pay Gary Trent Junior
Speaker 2: that sixteen million dollars over the next four years, and like, yes,
Speaker 2: that's funny, but you know, a if they're not willing
Speaker 2: to enforce obvious caps or convention, then all rules are
Speaker 2: out and every other team needs to start doing this too, Right,
Speaker 2: We're going to start having a lot of fake tree
Speaker 2: companies popping up in the NBA. I saw Caitlin Cooper,
Speaker 2: friend of the podcast, said something earlier, you know, basically
Speaker 2: that she's glad the Pacers now have Zubachi they traded
Speaker 2: for the deadline. But if it is, if the Gary
Speaker 2: Trent Junior deal is circumvention, him taking a blow market
Speaker 2: contract helped the Bucks sign Miles Turner, albeit to a
Speaker 2: contract that didn't age well, leading for the Pacers to
Speaker 2: overpay via trade for Zubach with another team that is
Speaker 2: also being investigated for Shenanigans. So she added, these investigations
Speaker 2: don't only affect the team's being investigated, and I think
Speaker 2: that is a point worth reinforcing. This is not just
Speaker 2: you know, the Bucks punishment is that they have to
Speaker 2: pay out this contract. It's you know, this like everything
Speaker 2: else in the league. It's all part of the same ecosystem.
Speaker 2: So them getting Gary Trent on a minimum had some
Speaker 2: trickle down effects, you know, that could have also like
Speaker 2: impacted what other free agents got last year. I saw
Speaker 2: a screenshot circulating around earlier. It was a quote from
Speaker 2: an executive. This was from Fred Katz of The Athletic
Speaker 2: had it last July, and the quote was, why would
Speaker 2: you spend twenty million dollars on Quinton Grimes when you
Speaker 2: can get Gary Trent junior for a minimum?
Speaker 1: Right? Fitting? Fitting?
Speaker 2: Right? Right?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: But I mean a fair question. But also like if
Speaker 2: that impacted Quentin Grimes's negotiations, and I think you know,
Speaker 2: Quentin Grimes has reason to be pissed, although it obviously
Speaker 2: worked out for him well, this summer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think that makes sense. I
Speaker 1: wonder if the league would benefit in installing a type
Speaker 1: of system that leans into John Hollinger's like what is
Speaker 1: it called boards? Like yeah, and I'm not saying it
Speaker 1: has it has to be like within that framework exclusively,
Speaker 1: but like if the league does have some tools that
Speaker 1: you can say all right, within this scheme and then
Speaker 1: only if something pops like dramatically, you can go, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: this is wrong and then have a conversation with the team.
Speaker 1: I just think that would be a smart endeavor because
Speaker 1: this is such a fluid situation. Like I agree with you,
Speaker 1: if they just find the Bucks are incompetent, what can
Speaker 1: they do? They can't do anything. Like if they just
Speaker 1: if they sit down with the Bucks and they walk
Speaker 1: away with the impression that the Bucks are just completely
Speaker 1: on board with this because they think this is such
Speaker 1: a great deal and there's no circumvention in place that
Speaker 1: they just think that highly of Gary Trent Junior, the
Speaker 1: League office will walk out of the Bucks practice facility
Speaker 1: and go, well, they're just idiots allow it.
Speaker 2: It's just remarkable that the Bucks are the ones that
Speaker 2: triggered this type of investigation. And not the Kings right
Speaker 2: over the odds on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but again, I mean, look, do we really feel
Speaker 1: as though the Bucks have made quality moves over the
Speaker 1: past few years, because I think we've had a conversation
Speaker 1: or two you and I about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, well, I mean, yeah, they obviously held on
Speaker 2: too long for your honest and I mean this is
Speaker 2: also a point going back to know how it affects
Speaker 2: the larger ecosystem. Them getting Gary Trent Junior on a
Speaker 2: minimum for the last two years, might you know, like
Speaker 2: that was a enticing selling point to keep you honest?
Speaker 2: Obviously did not work, but you know it, if they
Speaker 2: didn't get him on that contract, does you honest officially
Speaker 2: requests a trade sooner? Does that impact what they have
Speaker 2: gotten in return for him? Does that force their hand?
Speaker 2: Like the You know, it seems minor and funny in
Speaker 2: a vacuum, right, we can't deal with it only in
Speaker 2: that vacuum. And when you kind of look at the
Speaker 2: bigger picture implications here, you can understand why the NBA
Speaker 2: is taking this as seriously as it appears to be.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's funny. How it's not funny, That's just my
Speaker 1: way of saying it. It's weird. How remember when we
Speaker 1: talked about him at such a in such a positive terms,
Speaker 1: like when he was this like three and D guy
Speaker 1: in Toronto, like averaging eighteen points, strong defender, hitting three
Speaker 1: triples per game? Like, what the hell happened to Gary
Speaker 1: Trent Junior?
Speaker 2: Is this the guy?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Well, that's what's interesting is that, Like, and I think
Speaker 2: that's probably the case that the Bucks are going to
Speaker 2: make when they defend this contract. Is that. Yeah, a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago, he was averaging you know, eighteen
Speaker 2: point three points in twenty one twenty two, and then
Speaker 2: seventeen point four and twenty two twenty three. You know,
Speaker 2: not on great efficiency, but at least a good, decently
Speaker 2: high volume three point shooter. And like overall volume or
Speaker 2: overall efficiency not great, but three point shooting from the
Speaker 2: twenty one to twenty two through twenty four to twenty
Speaker 2: five shot thirty nine percent from three on six point
Speaker 2: seven attempts per game, So you know, that is fair.
Speaker 2: Maybe they see him as like, you know, we have
Speaker 2: this giant void now without Yiannis. He can put up numbers,
Speaker 2: you know, raise his trade value, and then we look
Speaker 2: to flip him down the line. Like I could. Again,
Speaker 2: I can get behind all of that logic if it
Speaker 2: was on a shorter term deal, right, but there's just
Speaker 2: no way that the team is going to offer much
Speaker 2: value for a guy on a four year contract coming
Speaker 2: off the season that he just had. You know, given
Speaker 2: how teams are operating these.
Speaker 1: Days, if they had signed him to half that two
Speaker 1: years forty two, would you have baded an eye? Like
Speaker 1: I think like you and I, because we're nerds, like
Speaker 1: would absolutely have said, oh, that's that's a bad deal.
Speaker 1: But would we have reacted in a way where we
Speaker 1: would have said, oh, this is this is cap circumvention.
Speaker 1: Would we have reacted disaggressively?
Speaker 2: No, because we've seen this happen in the past. I mean,
Speaker 2: like we saw kJ Martin got a two year, sixteen
Speaker 2: million dollars day right yeah with the Sixers, I forget
Speaker 2: off the top of my the Sons did it that
Speaker 2: same summer with I think josh akogy I can't remember,
Speaker 2: but I know the Sons did the exact same thing.
Speaker 2: It was like a two year deal, you know, a
Speaker 2: balloon deal effectively is what we were calling it, where
Speaker 2: it's like, okay, you're you're signing this guy to a
Speaker 2: well above market contract with the intention of using him
Speaker 2: as salary matching fodder in a trade down the line.
Speaker 2: Now the Sixers instead use kJ Martin and salary dumped
Speaker 2: him and spent two second round picks to do it.
Speaker 2: So that blew up in their face. But the Sons,
Speaker 2: I believe, trying to remember who they they got a
Speaker 2: center in. Was it Nick Richards? Does that sound right now?
Speaker 2: I'm gonna look it up.
Speaker 1: Nick Richards had like a two year, ten million deal.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I think maybe it wasn't him, Yeah, it
Speaker 2: was him, Yes, Yeah, that's how they got Nick Richards
Speaker 2: to the Suns. They flipped Joshua Koji on this on
Speaker 2: the balloon deal and they were able to get Nick Richards.
Speaker 2: So yeah, like I think again, a two year, second year,
Speaker 2: non guaranteed, second year team option. I don't care what
Speaker 2: you pay him, because then it's there's a justification of
Speaker 2: we just have this big contract and like maybe we can,
Speaker 2: you know, package him with another one of our deals,
Speaker 2: Tyler Hero, Miles Turner, whoever, Kyle Kuzma, and we can
Speaker 2: get a thirty five forty forty five million dollar player.
Speaker 2: It's the length of the contract is what raises the
Speaker 2: red flag for me, especially like it's fully guaranteed in
Speaker 2: a summer where we're not seeing those types of deals
Speaker 2: handed out very oft. I mean, John Collins did not
Speaker 2: get a fully guaranteed contract. Robert Williams Powell, Yeah, Norman
Speaker 2: Powell coming off of an all star season two years
Speaker 2: and the second years of team option. I believe, like
Speaker 2: that's hard to square away. How did Gary Trent Junior
Speaker 2: get all this guaranteed money when guys who had much
Speaker 2: better seasons than him did not?
Speaker 1: Right? No, yeah, absolutely right, And I think I normally
Speaker 1: I blame the NBA a little bit for meddling too much.
Speaker 1: This time around, this is fair. This is like a
Speaker 1: fair investigation. I just don't mind that they're looking into
Speaker 1: this because it just seems so goddamn wrong.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Like again, we're not saying the are necessarily guilty,
Speaker 2: but I think it's at least if you don't even
Speaker 2: investigate it, Yeah, that just tells you it's the wild
Speaker 2: West and every team should be doing this.
Speaker 1: Kind of thing, right exactly exactly, like they have to
Speaker 1: draw the line somewhere. So, Brian, we're going to take
Speaker 1: a short commercial break, and then we're going to come
Speaker 1: back with Adam Silver and who's talked about the second Apron.
Speaker 1: All right, Brian, you wanted to get into this. Adam
Speaker 1: Silver had a press conference recently. He talked about the
Speaker 1: second Apron. He talked about NBA Europe. You wanted to
Speaker 1: talk about the second apron, so so present what he said.
Speaker 1: So everyone's following along.
Speaker 2: Sure, So, I mean this has been kind of a
Speaker 2: topic of debate obviously since it came online a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago, but really this summer, you know, Kyle
Speaker 2: KU's been had a tweet a couple of weeks ago
Speaker 2: railing against how what the NBA has become thanks to
Speaker 2: the Second Apron. The nbpa's executive director said, you know,
Speaker 2: we are not fans of the second Apron. We should
Speaker 2: have done a better job fighting back and we're going
Speaker 2: to in the future. So that did come up Adam.
Speaker 2: The NBA Board of Governors had a meeting in Vegas.
Speaker 2: Adam Silver gave a press conference on Tuesday after that,
Speaker 2: and he was asked about David Kelly, the nbpa's executive director,
Speaker 2: about the comments that he had. So the question was,
Speaker 2: when you look at the effects of the Second Apron
Speaker 2: and you see that a team can draft well and
Speaker 2: draft potential MAX players but have to trade them. Does
Speaker 2: that make you want to change something about that because
Speaker 2: it's an unintended consequence and fans lose out on continuity
Speaker 2: of players that they have watched grow or is that
Speaker 2: just baked into the CBA And Adam Silver's first the
Speaker 2: first words out of his mouth were, it's certainly not
Speaker 2: an unintended consequence. Is that when you have a salary
Speaker 2: system in place, as we do, every general manager is
Speaker 2: going to need to make mixed basketball and business decisions.
Speaker 2: You know, in the case of a league, it's in
Speaker 2: essen zero, so that the extent a team doesn't resign
Speaker 2: a player chooses to trade a player, of course that
Speaker 2: player goes to another team. The purpose of the system
Speaker 2: is ultimately to create competition throughout the league. And from
Speaker 2: that standpoint, I think the system is working incredibly well.
Speaker 2: And they pointed to you know, the league's had eight
Speaker 2: different champions over the last eight years, more parody throughout
Speaker 2: the league, which he has been speaking about repeatedly, I
Speaker 2: mean for years at this point.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I just find it interesting because I feel like
Speaker 2: the kind of conventional wisdom about this stuff is that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: this is not going as the players anticipated, as fans anticipated,
Speaker 2: as agents anticipated, as front office is anticipated. And here
Speaker 2: Adam Silver is out saying, no, this is going exactly
Speaker 2: as this is exactly what we had in mind. So
Speaker 2: you know, it's like we are not that far away,
Speaker 2: unbelievably from another round of collective bargaining negotiations. The CBA
Speaker 2: is supposed to run through twenty nine to thirty, but
Speaker 2: either side can opt out after the twenty eight twenty
Speaker 2: nine season. And I'm going to go out on a
Speaker 2: limb and say the players are probably going to opt
Speaker 2: out after the twenty eight twenty nine season. Yeah. So
Speaker 2: I talked about this with our friend Dan Favallei the
Speaker 2: other day about like kind of like what what can
Speaker 2: they fix, what should they fix? What will they fix?
Speaker 2: Like what where do you stand? Do you think the
Speaker 2: second Apron as it's currently con you know, the current
Speaker 2: rules in place for the second Apron, Do you think
Speaker 2: they're working well, they're working as intended and that we
Speaker 2: should just be fine with the way that things are
Speaker 2: right now, or do you think there are things that
Speaker 2: need to be improved about, you know, to avoid situations
Speaker 2: where the Boston Celtics feel like they don't want to
Speaker 2: keep Jalen Brown anymore because he's on a thirty five
Speaker 2: percent max deal, right, So.
Speaker 1: I think it depends on the motivation. Like the answer
Speaker 1: to that question depends on the motivation. If you know,
Speaker 1: the league has, as you said, just hammered the home
Speaker 1: the point that they haven't had a repeat champion for
Speaker 1: eight years, and they see that as an enormous asset.
Speaker 1: So if we look at it through that perspective, then yeah,
Speaker 1: it's working, right if we agree with that premise. I
Speaker 1: don't know if I do agree with that premise though,
Speaker 1: Like is it exciting, Yeah, to a certain extent, absolutely,
Speaker 1: But I also think there's value in having a team
Speaker 1: that suddenly becomes a dynasty, a team that wins back
Speaker 1: to back or back to back to back. I mean, look,
Speaker 1: that's that's special. Like at three peat, we've we've seen
Speaker 1: them before and they stand out over the course of
Speaker 1: NBA history. So if you were asking me, who is
Speaker 1: it four Like, for the business side of things, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's working like a charm and like for the variety
Speaker 1: of it all. Absolutely, is it working in the hand
Speaker 1: in the within the framework of giving teams a reasonable
Speaker 1: chance to maintain roster continuity. Absolutely not. Then it's dreadful
Speaker 1: and you know, like you also said, in terms of
Speaker 1: just keeping players around, it's so difficult to do that
Speaker 1: because this is something that you and I have been
Speaker 1: harping on for years, the extension limit. Like, here's my
Speaker 1: overall issue, and it's probably not like immediately directed towards
Speaker 1: the second Apron, but it does tie into it. If
Speaker 1: you are changing the way free agency works, if you're
Speaker 1: changing the way the draft lottery works, if you're making
Speaker 1: trades more difficult to complete, the three pillars of roster
Speaker 1: construction are then suddenly dramatically altered, and so you have
Speaker 1: to adjust to that on the fly. While also, oh,
Speaker 1: keeping in mind there's now a second Apron restriction applied
Speaker 1: if you get over a certain financial limit, which means
Speaker 1: you can't do Deadley squad. So it's I don't look
Speaker 1: at this current financial development from the league as a
Speaker 1: particularly good thing because I think it has forced the
Speaker 1: hands in terms of like what you can do from
Speaker 1: a roster construction perspective. Like if if I were to
Speaker 1: be hired as a general manager for an NBA team
Speaker 1: right now, I would come in and I would be
Speaker 1: able to I would be able to scout, sure, but
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be able to say, oh, yeah, we can
Speaker 1: anticipate a certain quality of player in the draft because
Speaker 1: I can drop way down now regardless of what happens.
Speaker 1: I can go in and say, well, I want to
Speaker 1: conduct a couple of trades, but oh no, I'm over
Speaker 1: the second apron. So I can't really do anything. Like
Speaker 1: I'm really limited here. I can say, wow, I want
Speaker 1: to be a big player in free agency, but free
Speaker 1: agency has more or less died. I can say, oh,
Speaker 1: I want to keep one of my players who's on
Speaker 1: a sweetheart deal, but I actually want to be able
Speaker 1: to pay him reasonable money. Oh fuck, I can't do
Speaker 1: that because there's a one hundred and forty percent limit.
Speaker 1: It's my hands, in other words, have become so dramatically
Speaker 1: tied that it when Adam Silver says, you know, you
Speaker 1: have to gauge it between you know, basketball and business,
Speaker 1: he's not wrong. But I absolutely firmly believe it's leaning
Speaker 1: so far into the business side now that the basketball
Speaker 1: side has become a little bit forgotten. So if you're
Speaker 1: so through that perspective, my answer is going to be no,
Speaker 1: I don't think it's working out like I think it's
Speaker 1: working out to the extent that they want it to
Speaker 1: work out. But I don't like it from a basketball perspective.
Speaker 2: No, Yeah, I think I'm right there with you. I mean,
Speaker 2: as funny as the as the you know and Brown
Speaker 2: trade and the reaction to it is, you know, it
Speaker 2: does feel like you should at least be able to
Speaker 2: justify your moves. There should be some on court justification
Speaker 2: for it. I mean this, I would argue this is
Speaker 2: not the most egregious move that the Celtics have made
Speaker 2: for financial reasons. I mean trading Drew Holliday for Anthony
Speaker 2: Simons last year straight up. I don't think definitely didn't
Speaker 2: get first round picks. I think it was just a
Speaker 2: straight up trade. I don't think any picks changed hands.
Speaker 2: Like they did it because Anthony Simons was earning less
Speaker 2: money and it helped them get under the luxury tax.
Speaker 2: But they're doing that to a team that had won
Speaker 2: a championship a year ago. Yeah, Like, and I get
Speaker 2: you know, the Celtics took advantage of a very unique
Speaker 2: window that there was the one year like phase in
Speaker 2: of the new CBA where the second apron stuff hadn't
Speaker 2: gone into full effect yet, so they that's when they
Speaker 2: got Drue, That's when they got Christops. And I get
Speaker 2: that you don't want that team to stay together forever,
Speaker 2: because that team could not have existed had they just
Speaker 2: phased in the second apron right away. But I mean,
Speaker 2: I just I worry about, you know, the health of
Speaker 2: the league and the ability to create a new generation
Speaker 2: of fans. Yeah, if they you know, if teams continue
Speaker 2: to make moves that are just so obviously financially driven
Speaker 2: and don't it's hard to justify from a basketball perspective.
Speaker 2: I don't know how you get young kids into those
Speaker 2: teams or like make them die hard fans of those teams,
Speaker 2: make them lifelong fans of those teams, because I mean,
Speaker 2: think about how many kids right now are in the
Speaker 2: Boston area are super pissed about the Jalen Brown trade.
Speaker 2: And so that I think is my big concern about
Speaker 2: the system in general. Like I do think it went
Speaker 2: too far. I can understand the reasoning behind it. I
Speaker 2: think there are some relatively easy fixes that at least
Speaker 2: could reduce the pain without eliminating it outright. But no,
Speaker 2: I think it comes down to the question of like
Speaker 2: the NBA, to me, the most distinct eras of NBA
Speaker 2: history are defined by dynasties, or at least by like
Speaker 2: great rivalries. So you've got you know, I mean, obviously
Speaker 2: Russell Wilt back in the day Magic Bird, Lebron and
Speaker 2: the Pistons or not Lebron, MJ and the Pistons, and
Speaker 2: then MJ and the Jazz later and just MJ destroying
Speaker 2: the entire league in the nineties. You have the Heatles,
Speaker 2: you have you know, the the two thousand and eight Celtics,
Speaker 2: you have Lebron, the Wars, Shacks, Lakers. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: so like those, those are the even the Duncan Spurs
Speaker 2: and the mid two thousands like those, those are the
Speaker 2: teams that we remember. And the NBA system is making
Speaker 2: it difficult, if not impossible, for teams to build sustainable dynasties.
Speaker 2: And you can argue like, okay, that's fine, because that means,
Speaker 2: you know, to Adam Silver's point, like when teams are
Speaker 2: trading stars, the stars aren't going out of the NBA,
Speaker 2: They're just going to different markets. So maybe you know,
Speaker 2: every market's loss is another market's gain, but you're still
Speaker 2: not getting you stars aren't going to go to every
Speaker 2: single market, like no star is demanding a trade to
Speaker 2: the Sacramento Kings, with all due respect to the Sacramento Kings.
Speaker 2: So I don't know that it's necessarily accomplishing the goal
Speaker 2: of parity, and I worry it's just undermining the league's
Speaker 2: ability to, you know, have the next memorable, iconic team.
Speaker 2: We're seeing it with Okac right now. It's only going
Speaker 2: to get worse with them. But you know, they effectively
Speaker 2: his salary dump Isaiah Joe and Aaron Wiggins this offseason,
Speaker 2: got a couple second rounds picks back. But you know,
Speaker 2: you can't justify that from a basketball perspective, like we
Speaker 2: don't want these two guys on our team anymore. It's
Speaker 2: just like we had Chet Holgern and Jalen Williams going
Speaker 2: on max contracts now and you know, Shake Gilges Alexander
Speaker 2: is starting a super max in twenty seven to twenty eight.
Speaker 2: That's a twenty million dollar raise for him. Like they're
Speaker 2: gonna and case on Wallace if he doesn't sign an extension,
Speaker 2: he's going to be a restricted free agent next summer,
Speaker 2: Like this was the tip. This summer was the tip
Speaker 2: of the iceberg for the Thunder and you know, they
Speaker 2: managed to retain Isaiah Hart and sign for now, but
Speaker 2: like the pain is only going to continue for them
Speaker 2: moving forward. And then we see what we saw with
Speaker 2: Victor webbin Yama's extension, where he bypasses the chance of
Speaker 2: a thirty percent max uh decides to only take the
Speaker 2: twenty five percent max. You know, maybe he wouldn't have
Speaker 2: played sixty five games, and maybe it's a non issue
Speaker 2: and he would have gotten the twenty five max either way.
Speaker 2: But you know, if he plays sixty five games, he's
Speaker 2: making an All NBA team or he's winning Defensive Player
Speaker 2: of the Year, so you know, he he forfeited the
Speaker 2: opportunity to earn an additional fifty million dollars for the
Speaker 2: pursuit of, you know, additional financial flexibility for the Spurs
Speaker 2: down the line. I think the NBA's point is that
Speaker 2: players shouldn't have to bear that burden, like the system
Speaker 2: is broken. If Victor Wimbanyama feels like he has to
Speaker 2: take a twenty five percent max rather than a thirty
Speaker 2: percent max because he's worth you know, he doesn't want
Speaker 2: he knows he's got Steph Gassel and Dylan Harper on
Speaker 2: his team as well, and those guys are going to
Speaker 2: have to get paid at some point too, and he
Speaker 2: doesn't want the Spurs to have to choose between them.
Speaker 1: And I think the framing here is important, right because
Speaker 1: like when we say that the NBA is doing is no,
Speaker 1: it's NBA ownership doing this against their own teams. I
Speaker 1: think this is an important thing that we have to remember.
Speaker 1: Owners want this like owners want to be saved from themselves, right,
Speaker 1: There's a reason they vote the way that they do,
Speaker 1: and it's to save a buck. So I think it's
Speaker 1: so important that when we frame it as the NBA
Speaker 1: is doing, I just think it's worth remembering it's actually
Speaker 1: a different type of war we're talking about. It's ownership
Speaker 1: versus you know, leadership like or management. Sorry, like, it's
Speaker 1: it's owners versus general managers or team presidents. It's like
Speaker 1: the league is just they're working for the owners as is,
Speaker 1: Like if the owners say jump, the league will ask
Speaker 1: how high? Like that's that's where it is. So I
Speaker 1: just think it's so important to remember that whenever we
Speaker 1: hear owners come out and say stuff like well, it's
Speaker 1: really difficult to build a sustainable roster under these circumstances,
Speaker 1: you fucking voted for it because you wanted to save money.
Speaker 1: So I just like, I just I don't want to
Speaker 1: hear owners come out and try to explain like shut up,
Speaker 1: like shut the fuck up, honestly, because that's just that
Speaker 1: is so ridiculous. Like you're the ones actually going in
Speaker 1: and asking for these changes to be made, and then
Speaker 1: you're standing there at the press conference a couple months
Speaker 1: later with your arms shrucking like, oh, I don't know
Speaker 1: what happened these rules?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean they they come into every
Speaker 2: round of negotiations asking for an actual hardcap, yeah, and
Speaker 2: they effectively won one with the second apron. I mean
Speaker 2: a couple teams have gone over it, but you know,
Speaker 2: most teams do appear to be treating it as a hardcap.
Speaker 2: I think some teams are intentionally using the non taxpayer
Speaker 2: EMLI so they are hardcapped at the first statement, or
Speaker 2: they're using the taxpayer EMIL so they're hardcap so they
Speaker 2: have no ability to go over it. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: it's it is very funny to see you. So I'm
Speaker 2: so I'm interested in terms of like how we fix
Speaker 2: this because Brad Stevens gives his press conference where he's,
Speaker 2: you know, kind of explaining the rationale behind the Jalen
Speaker 2: Brown trade, and at some point he said more or less,
Speaker 2: you know, if there was a rule in place where
Speaker 2: Jalen Brown, even though he's on a thirty five percent
Speaker 2: max because we drafted him, he only counts as twenty
Speaker 2: five percent or thirty percent of the salary cap, we
Speaker 2: might not be having this press conference. He might still
Speaker 2: be on the team. And I've seen that idea floated
Speaker 2: a couple times throughout the years. What do you think
Speaker 2: about that as a potential fix or do you have
Speaker 2: any other ideas of like how how we could fix
Speaker 2: this to the point where teams do not have to
Speaker 2: completely blow their cores apart, but we still accomplish the
Speaker 2: goal of you know, a team can't have a four
Speaker 2: hundred million dollars pay roll and just hoard all the
Speaker 2: talent and still maintain the put at NBA's push toward
Speaker 2: parody without like quite the drastic side effects that we're
Speaker 2: seeing right now.
Speaker 1: Right So one of the solutions, and I brought this
Speaker 1: up during the entirety of our podcast for the past
Speaker 1: what ten years, ten plus years. Is that you know,
Speaker 1: the whole idea that you are eligible for thirty five
Speaker 1: percent after your tenth season is asinine. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Speaker 1: Oh I'm going to go out there and pay a
Speaker 1: thirty two year old player thirty five percent of my
Speaker 1: salary cap for four years? Why why he's declining, He's
Speaker 1: not going to get better, if anything. Reserve the thirty
Speaker 1: five percent cap for when they're in their prime, like
Speaker 1: the seven to ten right. And that's the thing, Like,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to argue against players earning money because again,
Speaker 1: it comes down to billionaires versus millionaires, and I'm just
Speaker 1: never You're never going to find me on the side
Speaker 1: of the billionaires. So I'm not going to sit here
Speaker 1: and say players shouldn't have their money. But what I
Speaker 1: am saying is they need to be structured different like
Speaker 1: Brad Stevens's idea of basically saying, hey, if this is
Speaker 1: our homegrown guy, and we can pay the difference, but
Speaker 1: it's outside of the salary cap. Hell yeah, yeah go,
Speaker 1: because then we won't have like us analysts and pundits,
Speaker 1: we don't have to take hold or take into account
Speaker 1: what Jalen Brown truly earns that doesn't matter to us.
Speaker 1: What we have to analyze is like the salary cap number.
Speaker 1: That's it. Then it's none of our business. If he's
Speaker 1: earning ten percent more, doesn't matter to us. So I
Speaker 1: think that's a smart way of doing it. By again,
Speaker 1: the league will find every excuse or the league owners
Speaker 1: see now I did it. The owners will find every
Speaker 1: single argument that they can to avoid going in going
Speaker 1: in that route, because at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: it means, oh, still might pay my guy more and
Speaker 1: I don't want to. There's also this thing where now
Speaker 1: that we've seen that the salary cap is not climbing
Speaker 1: as much as we thought, I do think the cap
Speaker 1: percent just just just follows suit. So if you sign
Speaker 1: for forty five percent of the cap, it just can
Speaker 1: never exceed that. So a player's salary will always be
Speaker 1: capped at thirty five percent. So when the when the
Speaker 1: salary is announced or the new contract is announced, yeah,
Speaker 1: sure we can get into that, but it comes with
Speaker 1: the caveat that if the league's salary cap doesn't increase
Speaker 1: to the level that we thought, while that player's salary
Speaker 1: is going to decrease down to like thirty five So
Speaker 1: it can't be thirty five point one, It can't be
Speaker 1: thirty six, it can't be thirty seven point five. It
Speaker 1: always has to be thirty five. Like, just adjust it
Speaker 1: that way. That's a like. But again we're that's it's
Speaker 1: kind of splitting hairs a little bit because that how
Speaker 1: much how big of a difference does that.
Speaker 2: Make at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: I don't know my personal favorite, but again, pen liaicning players,
Speaker 1: and that's why I'm not going to say that that
Speaker 1: it should be this, But I just think from a
Speaker 1: nerdy salary cap general manager perspective, having the max contract
Speaker 1: capped at all times at twenty five percent would be
Speaker 1: chef's kiss because that means you can carry at least
Speaker 1: three guys who are who are superstars for example, Like
Speaker 1: you can devote seventy five percent of your salary cap
Speaker 1: to three stars. That shouldn't be a problem. You can
Speaker 1: fill out the rest of the roster on for twenty
Speaker 1: five percent. I don't think that's out of line, but
Speaker 1: the players would never go for it.
Speaker 2: Right, So I want to revisit a couple of the
Speaker 2: ideas you brought up. So I'm the you know, you
Speaker 2: a guy you draft is thirty five percent, you can
Speaker 2: earn thirty five percent of the only counts to twenty
Speaker 2: five percent. I think the pushback that I've seen to that,
Speaker 2: and I actually kind of agree with that, is that
Speaker 2: why does it only apply to players that you draft?
Speaker 2: Like why could the Indiana Pacers not do this for
Speaker 2: Tyrese Haliburton or the Thunder couldn't do it for get
Speaker 2: Shake Gilgess, Alexander or you know, you could say like
Speaker 2: if you acquire them during their rookie.
Speaker 1: Contract, to say that if you get if you get
Speaker 1: them within the rookie scale, that should work. That's sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, But like I I I don't even know, you
Speaker 2: know what if you acquire like the Lakers with Luca,
Speaker 2: they got them after his rookie scale deal, why can't
Speaker 2: they you know, have that same benefit. So I think
Speaker 2: that's a fair pushback is like, why why are you
Speaker 2: kind of favoring the draft as the preferred method of
Speaker 2: team building if you are creating this exception for guys
Speaker 2: that you draft or four guys that you acquire earlier
Speaker 2: in their careers, especially when you just turned the draft
Speaker 2: into even more of a crapshoot than it already worked.
Speaker 2: With this new lottery system.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you're right, and that that's it's a completely
Speaker 1: reasonable Like I don't think we're going to find a
Speaker 1: solution that just is the perfect golden way for everyone.
Speaker 1: Like I think regardless of what we figure out, they
Speaker 1: are going to be drawbacks to some extent, like the
Speaker 1: perfect solution doesn't exist. But I do agree that that's
Speaker 1: that's one drawback for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. But to your larger point, like Donovan Mitchell, I
Speaker 2: think is a good flashpoint for this discussion because he
Speaker 2: signed a four year full max twenty or two hundred
Speaker 2: and seventy two point eight million dollars nine. Actually two
Speaker 2: seventy two point nine is the projection. Yeah, And to
Speaker 2: your point, the estimates on spot track, and you know,
Speaker 2: these are very very rough estimates because we don't know what.
Speaker 1: Forty seventy and they have I know where you're going here, yep. H.
Speaker 2: So I do actually like the idea of capping arrays
Speaker 2: at the percentage that the cap increases. That does seem
Speaker 2: you know, again it's relatively small potatoes, but every dollar matters,
Speaker 2: especially you know, teams are pocket watching more than ever,
Speaker 2: So I think that is a reasonable compromise but I mean,
Speaker 2: I think he's a good example of like why this
Speaker 2: is a discussion in the first place, because when he
Speaker 2: as soon as that came, as soon as I saw
Speaker 2: the sham's bomb there, my first instinct was not good
Speaker 2: for the Calves. It was like, ooh uh oh. I
Speaker 2: was planning on writing about it this later this summer.
Speaker 2: I didn't think it was going to come through so quickly,
Speaker 2: but I was planning on writing on like, should the
Speaker 2: Calves give him a full thirty five percent? Are we
Speaker 2: sure that's a good idea? And they were kind of
Speaker 2: stuck because if you don't give him that, then he's
Speaker 2: a free agent in twenty twenty seven, and we know
Speaker 2: what the entire storyline around the Calves all season is,
Speaker 2: what's going to happen with Donovan Mitchell. Yeah, and especially
Speaker 2: as you're pursuing Lebron James and free agency, you know
Speaker 2: that would be a clear negative. I would think in
Speaker 2: your pitch is like you want to come and deal
Speaker 2: with this distraction all season. So they kind of had
Speaker 2: to do this, but you know, should Donovan Mitchell have
Speaker 2: been willing to take less? Arguably? Right? I mean, but
Speaker 2: that's that's just puts these players in such a crappy
Speaker 2: situation where it's like you either take less and you
Speaker 2: know you get to play that I care more about
Speaker 2: winning card, or you don't take you take the full
Speaker 2: amount of money that you're eligible to earn based on
Speaker 2: your years of experience, and then you find yourself in
Speaker 2: Jalen Brown shoes in a couple of years.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, because again then we come we're coming back
Speaker 1: to that debate, right, like the players should earn or
Speaker 1: get what they earn, and like like they should be
Speaker 1: able to get the full bang for the buck. And
Speaker 1: because they're the public figures, they're the ones we're asking
Speaker 1: questions about, you know, financial sacrifice, Whereas, let's be real,
Speaker 1: it's probably the owners we should be asking that question about, like, oh,
Speaker 1: are you not worth one hundred billion dollars and you're trying,
Speaker 1: you want you want to make sure that you get
Speaker 1: your luxury tax pay out from different teams so you
Speaker 1: get twelve million dollars. Okay, okay, Like, isn't that small
Speaker 1: potatoes for you? But like no, because again that's the
Speaker 1: problem with ownership. It's they're looking at it as a loss,
Speaker 1: instill looking at it as oh, I'm going to field
Speaker 1: a competitive team. Like, my biggest gripe with NBA owners
Speaker 1: is that they're just not looking like far enough down
Speaker 1: the road, Like approaching this as a business is fine
Speaker 1: to a certain extent, but just let me paint you
Speaker 1: a picture here. So I'm going to use the team
Speaker 1: that we have crapped on the most during the ten
Speaker 1: years we've had this podcast for financial reasons, The Bulls.
Speaker 1: Let's take the Bulls, sure, And I think they're the
Speaker 1: best example because they earned an absolute shit ton of
Speaker 1: money just having all those nights right like from the
Speaker 1: six championships, like oh it's ninety ninety two night, Oh
Speaker 1: it's ninety ninety one night, and so on and so
Speaker 1: on in Legacy Night and everything, Like they have earned
Speaker 1: millions upon millions upon millions of dollars just by promoting
Speaker 1: previous seasons, Like that's a fact, like merchandising and everything. Now,
Speaker 1: they're so scared of their own shadow in terms of
Speaker 1: like going into the luxury attacks that they're never going
Speaker 1: to give themselves a chance or an opportunity to find
Speaker 1: themselves in like a new rotation of this where they
Speaker 1: can go in and potentially win a couple of championships
Speaker 1: because and then you go, let's say Caleb Williams or
Speaker 1: Kay Williams, Caleb Wilson of course is going to be
Speaker 1: the next greatest of all time and he automatically wins
Speaker 1: the three titles. How much money do you think that
Speaker 1: team can can spurn over the course of the next
Speaker 1: thirty thirty five years off of those three titles that
Speaker 1: Caleb Wilson won them. I guarantee you it's a lot,
Speaker 1: and it's probably more than what owners save during that
Speaker 1: luxury tax thing where they go, oh, I want that
Speaker 1: twelve million dollar payout at the end of the year.
Speaker 1: So I'm just I'm not pissed at players for taking
Speaker 1: what they they've earned. I'm pissed at ownership for sitting
Speaker 1: there and saying, well, I just want to win the
Speaker 1: financial title. I don't want to pay the luxury tax.
Speaker 1: I got into this business to make money and not
Speaker 1: to provide a competitive advantage to the team that I'm
Speaker 1: operating like. We can talk shit about Mark Cuban all
Speaker 1: day long if we want to, and he's certainly got
Speaker 1: warts on him, but I will give that dude this.
Speaker 1: He was always basketball first when he came to the
Speaker 1: money part. Always and like, I think the league has
Speaker 1: become so short on some of those guys in terms
Speaker 1: of ownership that that's the biggest hurdle we're looking at
Speaker 1: right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I completely agree with that, right.
Speaker 1: All right, Well that's closed. So what was it? The
Speaker 1: way we wrap this up is owners get better? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because that's gonna happen.
Speaker 2: Right now.
Speaker 1: But we're gonna take a commercial break and then we're
Speaker 1: gonna come back with another little Adam.
Speaker 2: Silver tip about NBA Europe, all.
Speaker 1: Right, bright so yeah. In that same press conference, Adam
Speaker 1: Silver also talked about NBA Europe, which is a bounce
Speaker 1: tip off in twenty seven eight. And again we're we're
Speaker 1: hearing all these great things about like there are more
Speaker 1: cities interested in joining this league than they actually even
Speaker 1: asked bits from. And it's it's Mark Tatum, who is,
Speaker 1: you know, a deputy commissioner who's basically handling all of this.
Speaker 1: I am, as a European and so intrigued about all
Speaker 1: of this. And I'm not just intrigued from like from
Speaker 1: a basketball perspective. I've intrigued in terms of like how
Speaker 1: this is all going to work because there is significant
Speaker 1: blow up potential attached to all of this. I've been
Speaker 1: asking around quite a bit from my neck of the
Speaker 1: woods over here, and it like, if I have to
Speaker 1: put a rough percentage on it, it's like eighty percent
Speaker 1: negative and like, really, yeah, this is not like viewed
Speaker 1: that positively, and like there were some and I think
Speaker 1: a year ago the percentage was very different. But as
Speaker 1: we're getting closer and closer, I've sensed a shift. And
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get into the political thing, but
Speaker 1: I think, you know, the political current administration in the
Speaker 1: US has also soured a lot of Europeans on basically
Speaker 1: an American endeavor coming in and overtake a major sport
Speaker 1: over here. That that is my guess, and that's what
Speaker 1: I've heard from a couple of people, more than a
Speaker 1: couple of people, to be completely transparent, but it's interesting
Speaker 1: because what there's this whole thing about the FIBA angle
Speaker 1: and the EuroLeague angle. Like the NBA and FEBA, they
Speaker 1: have this great relationship. FIBA and euro League not a
Speaker 1: great relationship there. And my guess is eventually, maybe not initially,
Speaker 1: but eventually it's going to be the euro League that's
Speaker 1: going to be sort of replaced with NBA Europe, and
Speaker 1: that is where I think that's the fear at least,
Speaker 1: and that's the fear I see represented from a lot
Speaker 1: of people over here, basically saying, look, if we have
Speaker 1: to relinquish European tournaments and European competitions just to shoehorn
Speaker 1: the NBA into this market, that's a bad thing. There
Speaker 1: is a fear that these NBA Europe teams are going
Speaker 1: to piel for young talent from local clubs, so the
Speaker 1: local clubs just don't get any level of compensation.
Speaker 2: For these players.
Speaker 1: So there's a lot going on right now, and I
Speaker 1: think the NBA right now are presenting things in such
Speaker 1: an optimistic and positive view that I can be a
Speaker 1: little concerned. Because every time I've interviewed Mark Tatum, I've
Speaker 1: actually asked him about this, just in regards to like,
Speaker 1: are you aware of like the European basketball traditions over here,
Speaker 1: and like the respect that it requires, and like the
Speaker 1: attention to detail that needs to be in mind here,
Speaker 1: And while he gives me perfectly valid answers, I always
Speaker 1: feel like it's sort of not that big of a priority.
Speaker 2: For the league.
Speaker 1: And Silver again in his press conference about this I'm
Speaker 1: not sensing that the league is fully understanding of the
Speaker 1: level of passion there is over here from European basket
Speaker 1: ball fans, and that could worry me from like just
Speaker 1: from the NBA europe League perspective, Like I know that
Speaker 1: you don't don't necessarily have a big take on this,
Speaker 1: because I'm guessing you're not going to follow and be
Speaker 1: a eurable that much. But yeah, but I even so,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to bring it up because I think
Speaker 1: it's interesting that the league is just trying to present
Speaker 1: this in a manner where I think it's almost what'ts
Speaker 1: the framing I'm looking for here, it's it's almost laughably optimistic,
Speaker 1: and like, I'm not saying it's not going to work,
Speaker 1: but I think it would suit the league so much
Speaker 1: to also speak to the European audience and say, hey, guys,
Speaker 1: we actually hear you, we understand your concerns, and we're
Speaker 1: going to try to meet them to the best of
Speaker 1: our capabilities. But instead it's it's a lot of business lingo,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of lawyer talk, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that's going to make the product at all more interesting
Speaker 1: over here from a lot of people.
Speaker 2: That's interesting perspective. I mean it kind of seems to
Speaker 2: fit with the larger idea that we just talked about,
Speaker 2: where the NBA is like less focused on the product
Speaker 2: than it is just making the line continue to go up. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, I think like I would imagine owners are
Speaker 2: pretty happy with Adam Silver overall because you know, the
Speaker 2: salary cap only got to the point that it has
Speaker 2: because revenues have exploded. I mean the new national TV
Speaker 2: deals or you know, triple what they used to be.
Speaker 2: Franchise valuations are in an all time high, to the
Speaker 2: point where like no one can even afford a team
Speaker 2: anymore without getting a team of investors together. And I
Speaker 2: you know, I with NBA Europe, I just keep coming
Speaker 2: back to the question of like who was asking for this,
Speaker 2: Like this was a league initiative. Sure, but you know,
Speaker 2: I don't think American fans particularly care about this. And
Speaker 2: what you're saying is that European fans don't seem particularly
Speaker 2: high on it right now, well right right now being
Speaker 2: the key phrase.
Speaker 1: Right, So the NBA brand is interesting, I think what
Speaker 1: so like there's the practical level, like I think a
Speaker 1: lot of Europeans are intrigued to having the NBA brand
Speaker 1: in Europe, like they don't mind that, And it's more
Speaker 1: along the lines like will it come at the expense
Speaker 1: of the clubs that we have here right now that
Speaker 1: have played for you know, fifty sixty seventy years, Like
Speaker 1: where's that history going to go? Is that going to
Speaker 1: wash away with the NBA brand because that is not
Speaker 1: something that we want. And that is a mindset that
Speaker 1: I deeply empathize with, because that is that should be
Speaker 1: a non starter. Like but but then again, if you
Speaker 1: can maintain that history and just incorporate it, like let's
Speaker 1: say Real Madrid. Real Madrid for at least seven years
Speaker 1: have been so thirsty to become an NBA team, like
Speaker 1: they've been it's the thirst is Real Bride, like they
Speaker 1: have wanted to be an NBA seems so bad you
Speaker 1: can taste it, So like what do you do? Do
Speaker 1: You just basically say, you know what, Real Madrid, You're
Speaker 1: going to keep your entire identity and the only thing
Speaker 1: we're going to do is just slab an NBA Europe
Speaker 1: logo on your jersey and then that's sort of it's
Speaker 1: like everything else maintains and you're just part of a
Speaker 1: larger thing, but you're still your own entity. I think
Speaker 1: that would be a smarter way to approach it. But
Speaker 1: if the league comes in and basically asks them to
Speaker 1: do something different to alter their history, like, we don't
Speaker 1: know this, this is just me projecting a little bit. Sure, sure,
Speaker 1: but then that's going to go sour real quick. Like
Speaker 1: the tradition has to be maintained. There has to be
Speaker 1: a level of foundational respect, foundational respect and understanding of
Speaker 1: where the fan base is, the history of these clubs.
Speaker 1: But I think you just nailed it when you said
Speaker 1: it does feel like the league is looking more at
Speaker 1: the bottom line instead of the basketball. And if we
Speaker 1: are to one day have a conversation about Adam Silver,
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a complicated one because
Speaker 1: I actually do like a lot of the things that
Speaker 1: he does. I do like the fact that he can
Speaker 1: be assertive. I also like the fact that he is
Speaker 1: willing to try something new, But I also have an
Speaker 1: issue with trying too much all at once. I also
Speaker 1: have too much of an issue with, you know that
Speaker 1: the financially driven ideology that sometimes overtake you know, basketball.
Speaker 1: So it's it's becoming complicated to like look at the
Speaker 1: league now, I feel compared to a few years ago,
Speaker 1: where I was a little bit more secure in knowing
Speaker 1: where the priorities were. Now it just feels very I
Speaker 1: don't want to say ghoulish, because I'm not at ghoulish,
Speaker 1: but it does feel very You know, money, money, money,
Speaker 1: all the time time, And I understand it's a business.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it's a business, but I also think if
Speaker 1: you're selling a product, you need to make sure that
Speaker 1: product is good. I can't go out and sell crap
Speaker 1: if I want to open a business, like, I want
Speaker 1: to make sure that what I sell is of the
Speaker 1: highest caliber, because then I can focus on earning money.
Speaker 1: And this NBA Europe constellation, I just I need to
Speaker 1: understand it in its entirety, and I think all fans
Speaker 1: need to understand it in its entirety for it to
Speaker 1: be sold.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to your point, like it's still relatively
Speaker 2: early stages and maybe they release their plans for this
Speaker 2: thing and everything is hunky dory, but I think right
Speaker 2: now it is fair to be skeptical about the endeavor
Speaker 2: in general, and like all of the points you brought
Speaker 2: up are completely fair. I mean, I can't I can't
Speaker 2: even imagine a US equivalent to another team, just like
Speaker 2: or another league just can take conduct a hostile takeover
Speaker 2: of I guess it'd be like if there were die
Speaker 2: hard XFL fans and then you know, the NFL came
Speaker 2: in and said, we're actually going to take over the
Speaker 2: XFL and completely change how things are done here, right,
Speaker 2: But they're obviously not diehard XL fans. So yeah, there's
Speaker 2: really no equivalent that we could compare this to. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think your point on Silver is interesting because yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't you know, you said you could be assertive
Speaker 2: and like we we have the Donald Sterling stuff. Yes,
Speaker 2: but since then I would argue he you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: David Stern was a lot tougher against teams, you know,
Speaker 2: had the tanking stuff taken off to the extent that
Speaker 2: it did, and David Stern was still in power. I
Speaker 2: don't think teams are getting away with it to the
Speaker 2: same level. You know, Like Adam Silver had a chip
Speaker 2: in his back pocket. The player participation policy allowed him
Speaker 2: to issue some pretty steep finds, and he he find
Speaker 2: the jazz and like handed out a couple of minor ones.
Speaker 2: But we did not go into you know, the like
Speaker 2: multimillion dollar finds that he easily could have. And I
Speaker 2: think you know your other point about like the ghoulish
Speaker 2: nature of or the potentially grulish nature of the NBA
Speaker 2: in recent years, I wonder how much of this is
Speaker 2: a byproduct of the franchise valuations rising so high that really,
Speaker 2: I mean, most of the people buying into the league
Speaker 2: in recent years are either venture capitalists or private equity
Speaker 2: and it feels like they're kind of just running the
Speaker 2: same private equity formula on the NBA. And you know,
Speaker 2: the term in shitification exists for a reason. I have
Speaker 2: some concern, Like, it's not a the players are incredible,
Speaker 2: the game action incredible, the finals were incredible. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying this is not a critique of the that the product.
Speaker 1: At all, Right, the encore product is good, yes.
Speaker 2: Right, But I worry that the system that the on
Speaker 2: court product exists in is becoming and shittified, in part
Speaker 2: potentially because of the types of owners that they've been
Speaker 2: bringing into the league. And I wonder if we're going
Speaker 2: to see a similar situation play out with NBA Europe
Speaker 2: as it gets off the ground.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean, overall, I'm I'm interested to see
Speaker 1: what goes on with that league, and and like I'm
Speaker 1: not I'm not disinterested in following along, like I'm going
Speaker 1: to play with with open cards here. I would love
Speaker 1: to announce those games, like I would love to call
Speaker 1: those games and and and like be a part of
Speaker 1: it in some capacity, as long as it's done responsibly,
Speaker 1: Like that's that's the whole thing. Because if the league
Speaker 1: comes in and pushes a lot of stuff out that
Speaker 1: has historic value you and thus emotional value to fans,
Speaker 1: that's a tougher selling point. But if they come in
Speaker 1: and have this respect for the established fan base, the
Speaker 1: established culture, you know what, I'll be first in line
Speaker 1: to say, all right, like gladly, I would love to
Speaker 1: call those games. That's cool, but it's I just need
Speaker 1: to see it beforehand. I really do, because I understand
Speaker 1: the skepticism and especially the whole you know, if you
Speaker 1: find a youngster somewhere and you're just not like you're
Speaker 1: just pilfering him from some local team, like I think, honestly,
Speaker 1: I need to understand also, like the trend's actional system
Speaker 1: that's put in place, like are they going to have trades?
Speaker 1: Are they going to have a draft, Like what because
Speaker 1: we don't have this over here, right, We just don't.
Speaker 1: And that's not necessarily a critique of anything, it's just
Speaker 1: a fact we don't have that in our basketball leagues.
Speaker 1: So I would be interested to understand just like how
Speaker 1: do you make transactions within in BA Europe? Like how
Speaker 1: does that hold? How does that work? Do you just
Speaker 1: buy players like things are happening right now? Do you
Speaker 1: have to draft players of a certain age? Like do
Speaker 1: you have to work with teams and you can call
Speaker 1: them up or down? Like I look to quote whoever
Speaker 1: said this to John Snow? You know nothing? John Snow,
Speaker 1: we know nothing. We have no idea, And I think
Speaker 1: at some point the league has to be a little
Speaker 1: bit more transparent in making us understand like what is
Speaker 1: actually going on and what are our intentions here?
Speaker 2: Yeah? For sure, for sure. And one we hope as
Speaker 2: they get closer to getting it off the ground and
Speaker 2: like you know, having all the ownership groups in place,
Speaker 2: we'll start to get more concrete details about it. But
Speaker 2: I mean it's what aren't they planning on starting in
Speaker 2: twenty seven?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we're a year away from this and we
Speaker 2: still know basically nothing about it.
Speaker 1: That's the thing that and that was kind of my
Speaker 1: That's why I wanted to talk about it as well,
Speaker 1: because if this had been like a twenty thirty project,
Speaker 1: all right, fair enough, and like you had time, this
Speaker 1: is this is literally a year and what three months away?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's nothing.
Speaker 1: That's fifteen months away.
Speaker 2: That seems like a lot to figure out in fifteen
Speaker 2: months out. Agree, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So I'm just saying, at some point the league needs
Speaker 1: to be a little bit more transparent about this. And
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily a critique of the league. It's just
Speaker 1: if you want to It's more an advice, Honestly, I
Speaker 1: should I think I framed it as too much of
Speaker 1: a criticism point instead of like advice, like if you
Speaker 1: want to get Europeans on board, don't play the US
Speaker 1: corporate We're gonna, you know, put out feelers here and there, like,
Speaker 1: just be fucking transparent about things. Because your entire league
Speaker 1: hinches interest. I would assume. I don't think the league
Speaker 1: would love to have empty stadiums, so for sure, maybe
Speaker 1: do something to make sure that people are interested. Yep,
Speaker 1: that would be nice, right, Yeah, I think so too. Well,
Speaker 1: that was it for this episode of the NBA podcast.
Speaker 1: But before we go, Brian, do you have some work
Speaker 1: that you want to pluck.
Speaker 2: Yeah. By the time this comes out, I will likely
Speaker 2: have a piece up on Forbes kind of just previewing
Speaker 2: the second Apron stuff that we talked about today and
Speaker 2: how that seems to just kind of be the center
Speaker 2: of a brewing labor battle. But also tell people to
Speaker 2: check out Bleacher Report. We just published a piece the
Speaker 2: Mount Rushmore of every city, every major US sports city
Speaker 2: since two thousand oh when it comes to athletes, and
Speaker 2: it was, let me tell you, man, like bing up
Speaker 2: with you know, working with the writer and trying to
Speaker 2: figure out who should be on each team's list was
Speaker 2: one of the most brain breaking things I've had to
Speaker 2: do in my job. Like super fun, but just agonizing
Speaker 2: to be like, oh, man, for you know, for Philly,
Speaker 2: like Joel Embiid did not make the list.
Speaker 1: For Philly that much, All right, cool?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, for for the big cities,
Speaker 2: there were a lot of very Shack is another one.
Speaker 2: Shack did not make it for La I'm just waiting
Speaker 2: for it. Well, I mean a lot of really good athletes. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but like repeat, yeah, well, it was only since two thousands,
Speaker 2: so he was only he got screwed because it was
Speaker 2: only for.
Speaker 1: It he won't he's won the first title in two thousand.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then I mean they had two more. Kobe
Speaker 2: obviously made it for La Aaron Donald who is just
Speaker 2: one of the best NFL defensive players of all time.
Speaker 2: Clayton Kershaw was a pitcher for the Dodgers who had
Speaker 2: an credible prime, and then show Hey Otani was the
Speaker 2: fourth fellout. La been been there for fewer years than Shack,
Speaker 2: so like you could argue that right now, Shack deserves it,
Speaker 2: but show Hey is just a bet on this guy
Speaker 2: is the best baseball player ever and that selection will
Speaker 2: age very well, I think. But yeah, it was that.
Speaker 2: That was the LA one was where we when we
Speaker 2: were going through this, like the ideation of it, we
Speaker 2: got to LA and we're like, yep, this is where
Speaker 2: this is a brilliant idea because if you can't get
Speaker 2: Shack on this thing.
Speaker 1: Wow, God, all right, that's interesting. Yeah, shooting my way.
Speaker 1: I'm going to read that.
Speaker 2: Question, so yeah, please please check that out. It was
Speaker 2: a long time in the making. I'm very happy it's Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: should and thank you for Lebron James for not announcing
Speaker 2: his decision on Wednesday and burying this which was my
Speaker 2: entire fear.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm same same season, And for everyone listening in
Speaker 1: thank you for doing so. Until we speak again, have
Speaker 1: a good one and stay safe everyone. Mm hm