1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:06,679 Speaker 1: All throughout ancient literature, whether it's Greek, Hebrew, wherever, there's 2 00:00:06,799 --> 00:00:13,839 a constant reiteration that the inner life of man and 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,559 the exterior appearance or world of the stars and planets 4 00:00:19,039 --> 00:00:22,960 are connected to each other like the hour glass, and 5 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,120 we're kind of at the center. And then there's this 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:28,800 interior life that we have that echoes the movements of 7 00:00:28,839 --> 00:00:32,960 the stars. And all of these ancient sources say, if 8 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,920 you want to order your inner life, your mental, emotional, 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,600 even the deepest, most spiritual and intangible parts of yourself, 10 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,600 if you want to order those, you have to be 11 00:00:45,719 --> 00:00:50,679 observing the movements of the heavens, because this interior part 12 00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:54,920 of me is modeled on this exterior part of me. 13 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,840 And as a human being, I'm joining all of these 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:11,560 things together. This is Jonathan. 15 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 2: Pegel, Welcome to the symbolic world. Hello everyone. This is 16 00:01:25,599 --> 00:01:30,560 Deacon Seraphim Roland, and I'm here with Joshua Sturchill and 17 00:01:30,879 --> 00:01:35,159 we're not in a studio. We're sitting outside under the heavens. 18 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,079 I actually hate sitting inside. If sitting outside is an option, 19 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:42,120 josh and so very often I just work out here 20 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,359 when the weather's good, you know, just take my laptop 21 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,439 out here and sit behind the you'ld barn up podcasting 22 00:01:47,799 --> 00:01:56,439 and do some work. So Josh is a bookseller, world traveler, poet, 23 00:01:57,879 --> 00:02:00,599 and also you teach at your local Is it an 24 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:01,400 Orthodox school? 25 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:05,519 Speaker 1: No? I teach it two small private classical schools in 26 00:02:05,519 --> 00:02:12,080 which tah neither of them are Orthodox. But I'm kind 27 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,680 of infiltrating. Yeah, that's right, that's right, trying to sneak 28 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:15,719 a little ancient Christianity. 29 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,319 Speaker 2: Right, we're everywhere where, everywhere. So Josh is here today 30 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,240 because we discovered. Josh and I have had a long 31 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,919 friendship now of I'm going to say almost ten years. 32 00:02:26,319 --> 00:02:29,879 But we have to sneak our friendship in at conferences. 33 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:33,560 So Josh works at eight Day Books, which if you've 34 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:36,840 been to any kind of symbolic world event or any 35 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,199 kind of you know a lot, almost any big classical 36 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,000 Christian event, touchdown conference, anything like that, you've probably seen 37 00:02:44,039 --> 00:02:47,840 Eighth Day. You probably left them a significant portion of 38 00:02:47,879 --> 00:02:50,599 your hard earned wages as well. If I did my job, 39 00:02:50,719 --> 00:02:53,080 if Josh did this job, which he usually does, I'll 40 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,560 tell a little story about Josh which Josh didn't know 41 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,919 I was going to tell. And that is when I 42 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:04,439 was when I was first inquiring into Orthodoxy. We visited 43 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,280 eight Day Books for the first time and I went 44 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:12,000 in there and I said, I'm really interested in Orthodoxy. 45 00:03:12,039 --> 00:03:13,439 I really feel like this is the direction God has 46 00:03:13,479 --> 00:03:17,520 taken our family right now. I would like a book recommendation, 47 00:03:17,599 --> 00:03:19,919 but don't don't give me an intro to orthodoxy about it. 48 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,080 Give me, you know, give me something beyond that. And 49 00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:29,639 you recommended two books to me and uh and which 50 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,879 were not which? Which are not the books I would 51 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:36,080 recommend to a new inquirer, but it but God must 52 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,000 have given you a word because it was it was 53 00:03:38,039 --> 00:03:41,000 definitely the right right thing for me. And then also 54 00:03:41,039 --> 00:03:43,680 you recommended the chapter of the life of Elder Zosima 55 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,639 from Brothers caramels Off and so very indebted to you 56 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:51,199 for that. And and you know, but like I said, 57 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,360 we've been friends for a number of years now, but 58 00:03:54,639 --> 00:03:57,159 we have to sort of stretch our friendship out over 59 00:03:57,400 --> 00:03:59,439 you know, running into each other at conferences and things 60 00:03:59,479 --> 00:04:03,159 like that. So so about I want to say, the 61 00:04:03,199 --> 00:04:05,599 last couple of times we've gotten together, we've had some 62 00:04:05,719 --> 00:04:09,759 long chats about cosmology, about the stars and planets, about 63 00:04:09,759 --> 00:04:14,159 the zodiac, about all these things. And this is really 64 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,680 interesting and important to me because in the current moment 65 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,639 that we're in, you know, you can call it re enchantment. 66 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,600 I actually feel like in some ways we've probably moved 67 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,360 beyond that terminology. But in the you know, the thing 68 00:04:26,399 --> 00:04:29,040 that's happening right now, it feels like people are waking up, 69 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,279 or the ferries are coming back, or you know, the 70 00:04:31,319 --> 00:04:35,319 magic's coming back into the world, or maybe you know, 71 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,000 technology is now pushing into boundaries that make us realize 72 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,079 that the magic never really left. But we just thought 73 00:04:43,079 --> 00:04:45,720 for a moment that we could control everything, and now 74 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:49,000 that we're making things that we can't even control, maybe 75 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,279 that's maybe that's changing our perception of the world. But 76 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:57,199 in any case, in this current moment, one of the 77 00:04:57,199 --> 00:04:59,399 things that it seems like it's really necessary is to 78 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,040 recover a proper way of relating to the heavens, a 79 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:06,519 proper way of relating to the rest of the cosmos. 80 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,879 You know, what is sometimes called cosmology, what has also 81 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:14,279 been called, of course astronomy, astrology, and for the modern period, 82 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:19,600 those are interchangeable terms and sometimes also mathematics lumped in there. 83 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:23,160 You know, it's it's weird for a lot of people 84 00:05:23,399 --> 00:05:27,839 to to think about the way that mathematics would would 85 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:30,480 have been considered a magical art or adjacent to magical arts, 86 00:05:30,519 --> 00:05:35,560 and yet so obviously it is. And if you you 87 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,240 know now that we're getting, you know, getting into the 88 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,360 world of AI and a lot of the big technological 89 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,759 pushes that we're experiencing in a world right now. You know, 90 00:05:46,959 --> 00:05:49,160 those of us who work in the tech industry, you know, 91 00:05:49,199 --> 00:05:51,959 we we know, you know on paper what exactly what 92 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,639 a large large language model is, which is basically it's 93 00:05:54,759 --> 00:05:58,720 just a very very sophisticated statistics engine. And yet it 94 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,879 is able to generate things that are you know that 95 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,680 past the touring test, they're indistinguishable for you know, uh, 96 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,959 you know, for most people, if you interact with a 97 00:06:09,079 --> 00:06:10,800 with a chatbot, you may not even know that you're 98 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,519 interacting with one. So all that to say, how do 99 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,399 we how do we approach this? Because this is of 100 00:06:20,399 --> 00:06:23,639 course astronomy is word astrology, it's one of the seven 101 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,079 Liberal arts. And so if you're gonna have a classical 102 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,160 education worthy of the name, this actually has to be 103 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,160 part of your curriculum. Which is why I'm so interested 104 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,480 in what you're doing, because most classical ed of people 105 00:06:34,519 --> 00:06:38,240 I know are actually just great books people, which is 106 00:06:38,319 --> 00:06:40,399 nothing wrong with that. I'm a great books guy, big time. 107 00:06:40,519 --> 00:06:45,399 But but there, but but nobody really knows between materialism 108 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:50,199 and then a very you know, strong Christian response to 109 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,439 these things. Nobody really knows how to how to how 110 00:06:54,519 --> 00:06:57,639 to teach this stuff. So that's all by way of introduction. 111 00:06:57,759 --> 00:07:00,240 Maybe you could just open up with talking ab about 112 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,439 your approach and why you think is important, and then 113 00:07:02,519 --> 00:07:05,759 I'm going to try to debunk everything you say with 114 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:06,959 facts and logic. 115 00:07:06,879 --> 00:07:10,079 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, thank you, Yeah, I appreciate that. I like 116 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:16,639 to get attacked my students students sometimes too. Greeting's friends, cosmographers, 117 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:20,399 fellow symbolists, this is Joshua from Eighth Day Books, inviting 118 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:24,279 you to join me and studying a remarkable cosmic coincidence. 119 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,759 Why is it that writers, philosophers, and prophets from many 120 00:07:28,879 --> 00:07:32,800 times and places have all told us that contemplating the 121 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,319 night sky makes our own souls similarly more beautiful and 122 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,839 more ordered. Hebrew and Hindu, Greek and Chinese. They've all 123 00:07:42,079 --> 00:07:46,360 told us that looking up is the same as looking in, 124 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,240 and that we are as much citizens of the sky 125 00:07:49,879 --> 00:07:53,800 as we are of Earth. In February, we will be 126 00:07:53,879 --> 00:07:57,879 looking at Pythagorea and folk tales, biblical wisdom, literature, and 127 00:07:58,079 --> 00:08:02,920 contemporary novelists to ask these questions. It'll be a challenging course, 128 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,759 but not technical. I teach medieval philosophy and Renaissance literature, 129 00:08:07,759 --> 00:08:11,240 and I'm condensing a year's worth of information into a 130 00:08:11,319 --> 00:08:14,759 few wonder filled hours. Please join me for some Plato, 131 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,839 some poetry, and some practical skygazing, all to help us 132 00:08:18,879 --> 00:08:23,199 pursue the art of imitating Heaven. See you very soon. 133 00:08:34,159 --> 00:08:42,279 So I'm very interested in the intersection of cosmology and symbolism, 134 00:08:43,279 --> 00:08:45,639 and the more I think about it, the more I 135 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,159 can't really see that there is a difference. A very 136 00:08:49,399 --> 00:08:55,279 rich symbolic way of thinking is a cosmology. And I 137 00:08:55,399 --> 00:09:01,000 hear Jonathan, I hear a lot of people who read scripture, 138 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,440 or who read any world literature talk about the fact 139 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,399 that the fundamental context that we live in is heaven 140 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:12,480 and Earth. But we kind of throw that phrase out, 141 00:09:12,879 --> 00:09:15,279 the heaven and Earth, but we don't dive into what 142 00:09:15,399 --> 00:09:19,679 that means, and then we end up with some vague 143 00:09:19,759 --> 00:09:25,559 ideas about a place of clouds and harps and everything 144 00:09:25,639 --> 00:09:28,519 that the soul floats away to when it's gone. But 145 00:09:29,759 --> 00:09:34,200 for the ancient world, for whether you're Greek, Hebrew, Chinese, Egyptian, 146 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:40,480 when the culture talks about the heavens, it's talking about 147 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,879 the sky, particularly the night sky, and how the night 148 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:50,559 sky is the face of the eternal it's the face 149 00:09:50,759 --> 00:09:56,279 of the hierarchy of reality. And it's a classroom. So 150 00:09:57,159 --> 00:10:00,639 in trying to put together a curriculum for like class education, 151 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:06,919 teaching astronomy and thinking through what did the ancient texts 152 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:15,519 say about it, we end up making almost like a 153 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,840 worldview class. We start out with ancient creation stories, and 154 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,840 ancient creation stories all over the world say there's a 155 00:10:24,879 --> 00:10:28,240 heaven and an earth. They are radically different from each 156 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:31,360 other in appearance and behavior, and yet they're one reality. 157 00:10:31,919 --> 00:10:37,840 So every culture has had to explain why they're one 158 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,399 thing and yet two things at the same time. And 159 00:10:42,879 --> 00:10:49,320 our culture inherits particularly the Hebrew biblical tradition and the 160 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:56,720 Greek Pythagorean Platonic tradition, and weaves the two together. And 161 00:10:56,879 --> 00:11:01,320 so we move from ancient cosmology and origin stories in 162 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:05,720 our class to thinking about what does it mean that 163 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,240 in the beginning God created the heaven and the Earth. 164 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,799 If you read Genesis one, why is it that the 165 00:11:11,919 --> 00:11:15,519 heavens plural and the earth are created first? And then 166 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:20,120 when God moves to forming the earth, he divides it 167 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,000 into just like the heavens and the earth at the beginning, 168 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,159 and then he names part of earth heaven and part 169 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,879 of it earth, and then the earth part he divides again. 170 00:11:32,759 --> 00:11:38,240 And this fractal idea where you have these repeating patterns 171 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:43,879 that all rest in each other like Russian dolls, and 172 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:52,639 this idea of reflections in the lower of the higher 173 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,519 is not just in Genesis, but it's all through the 174 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,159 Old Testament. It's very very present in the Psalms. And 175 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,080 then when you get to the Testament, especially like Matthew, 176 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:10,200 Matthews the Astronomical Gospel, Matthew's the gospel that uses the 177 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:14,879 Kingdom of the Heavens exclusively, Matthews the Gospel where we 178 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,240 get the Star that guides the magi. We use the 179 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,559 text of the Lord's Prayer for Matthew, which is an 180 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:27,440 astronomical prayer. And so in my class we look at 181 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:29,440 all of these texts and talk about, Okay, well, what 182 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,559 does this mean that we live in a world that 183 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,399 is both heaven and Earth, and that the human being 184 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,440 is the bridge between them. So then setting that aside, 185 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:44,759 we take a look at the Greek, particularly the philosophical 186 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,559 and Pythagorean tradition, and we spend a lot of time 187 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:54,240 diving into the Timaeus, which is I think Plato's most 188 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:59,679 fantastical and wild and interesting dialogue, and this is the 189 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:07,320 explanation for the world, for the Cosmos, which in which 190 00:13:07,519 --> 00:13:14,159 Plato is taking everything that he knows, from the simplest 191 00:13:14,399 --> 00:13:19,480 and most mundane to the craziest and grandest and most abstract, 192 00:13:19,879 --> 00:13:22,960 and he is telling a story that fits all of 193 00:13:23,039 --> 00:13:25,960 it together. And he says right at the beginning, there's 194 00:13:26,159 --> 00:13:28,519 no way to fit all of reality into a story, 195 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,000 but I'm going to give you a likely story that 196 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,519 is going to show how all of these things fit together. 197 00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:38,639 And it's beautiful and it's the students love it because 198 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,960 there's just there's math, there's morality in there. There's just 199 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:48,600 crazy stuff about the divine craftsman cutting things up into 200 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,360 pieces and putting them back together, and how he smashes 201 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:56,000 together the things that don't want to be with the 202 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,720 things that do want to be. And some of the 203 00:13:59,759 --> 00:14:02,240 best discussions we have in class are looking at Playtos 204 00:14:02,279 --> 00:14:05,039 demands so uh, And it's an important text. It was 205 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,440 one of the few ancient Greek texts that came over 206 00:14:09,799 --> 00:14:14,200 in into a Latin translation in the in the early 207 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,159 Middle Ages, and so it was very influential both in 208 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,720 East and West and and has been has been studied 209 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,240 and commented on for years and years. But then then 210 00:14:25,279 --> 00:14:28,559 how do you put these things together? And if you 211 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:30,840 have the you have a Hebrew tradition, you have a 212 00:14:30,879 --> 00:14:33,080 Greek tradition. Well, what about other traditions in the world. 213 00:14:33,559 --> 00:14:36,120 What about what about the Hindu and Buddhist tradition? What 214 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:41,039 about ancient China? Could you go into those traditions and 215 00:14:41,159 --> 00:14:46,159 also see heaven and earth right? And would you see 216 00:14:47,159 --> 00:14:51,039 insights common to all of these different places. It wouldn't 217 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,200 just be a merely European Western idea. If it's real, 218 00:14:56,759 --> 00:14:59,639 it should be it should be everywhere. And so we 219 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:01,360 do take a little bit of time to look at that. 220 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,679 It's a little outside my classroom, but it's my personal 221 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,440 interest is looking into Daoism and reading things like the Upanashads. 222 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 2: And of course, as soon as you start mentioning some 223 00:15:10,919 --> 00:15:14,039 of these things, some people are going to get really uncomfortable. Yeah, 224 00:15:14,559 --> 00:15:20,440 and there's always been kind of, I think, an ongoing 225 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:23,919 you could almost say, discussion within Christianity where you have 226 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,519 certain church fathers who talk about the you know, the 227 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,679 logo Suceeed form, who talk about you know, plundering, the 228 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,600 Egyptians being able to be you know, all these different things, 229 00:15:34,519 --> 00:15:36,759 all the way up to Saint Nikolayo Jica, who's the 230 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,440 patriot saint symbolic world, you know, who writes insane poetry 231 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,200 in which he says things you know about some of 232 00:15:44,279 --> 00:15:48,720 these these pre Christian traditions which which I personally would 233 00:15:48,759 --> 00:15:51,559 be uncomfortable of, you know, saying you know, but you 234 00:15:51,639 --> 00:15:54,399 know he said them. And then there's also people who 235 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:56,080 would just say no, no, no, it's not it's not 236 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:57,799 in the Bible, or if it's not, you know, in 237 00:15:57,879 --> 00:15:59,679 the Holy Fathers, which is kind of the you know, 238 00:16:00,039 --> 00:16:03,600 different version of the same impulse, then we shouldn't have 239 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:05,360 anything to do with it. Obviously, there are a lot 240 00:16:05,399 --> 00:16:10,600 of denunciations of not just astrology as you know, like 241 00:16:10,759 --> 00:16:14,159 you know, you know, you're crazy Ant's horoscope or something 242 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:19,360 like that, but but even denunciations of even studying the 243 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,519 stars as such. So I thought it would be fun 244 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,559 to read a couple of these to you, Like I said, 245 00:16:25,799 --> 00:16:29,440 facts and logic. Here we go. Okay, so this is 246 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,320 from the de decay, my child, do not become a 247 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:38,279 bird observer, no bird watching, or a mathematician, because from 248 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,200 all these stems idolatry. Now, obviously this is this is 249 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:47,879 talking about certain divinatory practices which are forbidden to Christians. Right, 250 00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:51,519 So flights of birds, of course, we have speaking of 251 00:16:51,559 --> 00:16:54,559 the heavens. You know, we've got a bunch of wonderful 252 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,919 birds around here on the farm. We have some crows 253 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,200 over that direction, and they're really upset right now because 254 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,080 a hawk was circling right there as you were talking. 255 00:17:05,559 --> 00:17:07,880 But then also the heavens above have been kind of crowded, 256 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,799 you know. Now we have you know, planes going overhead, 257 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:15,200 and satellites totally confusing, you know, naked eye astronomy and 258 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:15,759 all these things. 259 00:17:16,559 --> 00:17:19,079 Speaker 1: Here in Dallas Fort Worth area. You can't look up 260 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,559 at the sky and actually see which which stars are 261 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,759 stars because there's so many airplanes. 262 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:25,319 Speaker 2: Right, that's right, And you're oh, that's a really right. 263 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:26,319 Oh no, it's just an airplane. 264 00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 1: Oh it's moving off the fast yep to be Mars. 265 00:17:28,759 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 2: Yep, right, exactly. It is forbidden for priests to be 266 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,759 magicians or mathematicians or to construct the so called amulets 267 00:17:36,799 --> 00:17:40,319 which are prisons of their souls. So no, it is 268 00:17:40,319 --> 00:17:46,960 an airplane, So no phylactories, no magicians or mathematicians. That's 269 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,680 the thirty six canon of the Council of Play I 270 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:52,039 to see you. And then, of course the famous third 271 00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:55,880 anathema against the originists from just Sinian. If anyone shall 272 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:57,799 say that the sun, the moon, the stars are also 273 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,680 reasonable beings and that they have owned become what they 274 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,359 are because they turn towards evil, let him be anaphema. 275 00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:04,880 And a lot of that has to do with the 276 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,960 you know, the origin origins, existence of souls and things 277 00:18:10,039 --> 00:18:14,559 like that. You know, But you can find this kind 278 00:18:14,559 --> 00:18:17,359 of stuff. You can buy very strong language in for instance, 279 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,359 Saint Basil, the Great Saint John Crisystem is very important 280 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,200 saints in our tradition, really denouncing this kind of practice 281 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:27,599 and really cautioning people against even the study of what 282 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,880 today we consider astronomy. So yea, what do we do 283 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:32,359 with all of that? 284 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: Well, one thing is I rarely argue. Yeah, So if 285 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,400 somebody just says not interested like that, you're not interested, 286 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:53,160 no problem. But I would say if you're interested in 287 00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:56,839 knowing more about the world that you live in, and 288 00:18:57,079 --> 00:19:02,680 you want to know what ancient people believe, then studying 289 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,359 ancient cosmology is a good place to begin. I also 290 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:12,039 think there's a lot there's a lot in the New 291 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:23,319 Testament about the heavens that suggest that the visible heavens 292 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:29,720 is revealing to us something of the angelic world, and 293 00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:33,559 that the visible heavens, the Sun, the moon, the stars 294 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,240 are participating in the work of God, like the Sun 295 00:19:37,319 --> 00:19:40,759 and the moon hiding their faces at the crucifixion, or 296 00:19:41,279 --> 00:19:45,480 Jesus clearly saying that when things get crazy on earth 297 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,079 at the end of the world, look up for your 298 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,319 redemption as drawing near. And he talks about signs in 299 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:52,880 the heavens. 300 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 2: So I it's it's the very simple fact that Christians 301 00:19:56,599 --> 00:19:59,279 have traditionally preyed towards the rising sun. 302 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,839 Speaker 1: Yes, we orient our churches toward the east that for 303 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:08,279 that reason. So what do you do if you now 304 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,359 live in a world where the computer screen has taken 305 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,079 the place of heaven and you're looking and you're always 306 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,920 looking down And it used to be if you wanted 307 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,799 to learn geometry, if you wanted to learn something about 308 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,599 order and beauty, you looked up at the night sky 309 00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:34,720 and you were taught perfection. Where Saint Paul, what does 310 00:20:34,759 --> 00:20:38,799 Saint Paul say about that the majesty of God is 311 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:43,640 known by created things? He's particularly referring to the heavens. 312 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:50,440 Saint Anathanasius, in on the Incarnation says that there are 313 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,200 a few ways that you can know the perfection of 314 00:20:55,319 --> 00:20:57,960 God and you're not your soul to him, and one 315 00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,720 of them is to study the heavens. 316 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:04,279 Speaker 2: There's a there's a Syriac tradition that the reason that 317 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,559 Abraham did not fall into idolatry and actually knew the 318 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,680 knew the knew the one True God and instead of 319 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,079 the idolatry that his father had fallen into everybody around 320 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,200 him or the counties had followed into, was because he 321 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,119 was he was an astrology actually or an astronomer, you know. 322 00:21:23,279 --> 00:21:26,599 But again those words are basically interchangeable before the modern era. 323 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,880 And but the idea was that he he unlike everybody 324 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,000 else who was using for idolatrous purposes. So for people 325 00:21:36,079 --> 00:21:37,960 don't know the way that astrology worked in the ancient 326 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,160 world is that you would let's say you're planning on, 327 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,359 you know, doing doings, you know, and again most of 328 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,400 the stuff is for kings, you know. But let's say 329 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,119 you're planning on doing something kingly, like an evasion or 330 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,400 something like that. Well, as you do as soon as 331 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,079 one does, well what you do, as you go, and 332 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,559 you make a sacrifice to Marduke, you know. If this 333 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:01,039 is ancient Babylon, ort you, but if it's a gimerrome, 334 00:22:01,519 --> 00:22:05,119 and then you and then your priests watch the heavens 335 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,960 to see what Jupiter is doing and if the outcome 336 00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:12,240 will be favorable or unfavorable for the enterprise you're undertaking, 337 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,279 you know. And so that's that's the way in which 338 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,079 these ancient divinatory practices were directly related to idolatry, you know. 339 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,480 And obviously I think it should be very clear that 340 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,039 for Christians, we just you know, you can't do these 341 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:31,680 kinds of things. However, the Bible speaks, you know, very 342 00:22:31,759 --> 00:22:35,119 specifically about the zodiac and the role of the zodiac, 343 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,599 and the role of the sun in the zodiac. So 344 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,799 I thought I would just read this which most people 345 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,640 probably know this passage, and if you don't know it. 346 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:48,359 If your orthox you you you hear some bits from 347 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,799 it every Thursday in the Orthodox Church. So the heavens 348 00:22:51,839 --> 00:22:54,759 declare the glory of God and the firmament. Show with 349 00:22:54,839 --> 00:22:57,440 his handiwork day and to day uttereth speech a night 350 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,759 and tonight show with knowledge. There is no speed language 351 00:23:00,759 --> 00:23:03,000 where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone 352 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:05,640 out through all the earth, and their words the ends 353 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,920 of the world or the ends of the cosmos. In 354 00:23:08,079 --> 00:23:11,440 them hath he set a tabernacle for the Sun, which 355 00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:13,920 is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber and 356 00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:16,319 rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His 357 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,440 going forth is from the end of heaven and a 358 00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:20,359 circuit unto the ends of it. And there is nothing 359 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,920 hid from the heat thereof. So this line from the 360 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,440 Psalms is obviously about it's about the zodiac, right, those 361 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,839 are the Their sound or their line has gone out 362 00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:35,720 through all the world, and their sayings to the ends 363 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,559 of the cosmos. Right, that's the zodiac. And this idea 364 00:23:39,559 --> 00:23:42,240 of the tabernacle of the Sun, this is referring to 365 00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:45,160 where the sun rises, you know, in the points of 366 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:50,880 the zodiac throughout the year and what's really interesting the 367 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,039 thing that we've done. You know, in ancient Judaism, there 368 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,119 was a school of thought that kind of tied the 369 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,640 twelve signs of the zodiac to the twelve tribes of Israel, 370 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,759 the twelve Sons of Jacob, you know, or you know, 371 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,799 the actual number of the Sons of Jacob being a 372 00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:06,440 little ambiguous at times, which is okay, because so is 373 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,400 the number actual numbering of the apostles. You know, there's 374 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,960 twelve or thirteen or fourteen or let you know, but 375 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,920 the some number of apostles, but ultimately the twelve, right, 376 00:24:14,559 --> 00:24:17,720 And so you have this, you know, Christ saying I 377 00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:20,279 think it's in Matthew that the apostles are going to 378 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,039 dwell judge the twelve tribes of Israel, right, And so 379 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:28,039 the Church actually kind of did this overlay and said, okay, 380 00:24:28,079 --> 00:24:32,480 but now the sun is Christ, and now the twelve signs, 381 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:34,960 you know, their sound has gone out into all the earth. 382 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,559 I mean, that's the procumenon for the feast of the Apostles, right, 383 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,920 So we do it on Thursdays in the Orthodox Church. 384 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:43,000 Then on you know, any feast of the Apostles, that'll 385 00:24:43,039 --> 00:24:46,440 be the prokeminon verse that we use before the scripture 386 00:24:46,599 --> 00:24:49,880 is read, and because the idea is now it's the 387 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,359 it's the proclamation. It's the apostolic proclamation of the Gospel. 388 00:24:53,839 --> 00:24:56,240 That's the line that's gone forth into all the world, 389 00:24:56,319 --> 00:24:58,680 and that's the thing that is showing us how the 390 00:24:58,759 --> 00:25:02,200 sun rises, where the sunrises, kind of what age we're in, 391 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,880 all those things. So, I do you know, but the 392 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,839 thing is like that, that imagery doesn't work if you 393 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,039 do not have some basic knowledge of astrology to. 394 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:14,799 Speaker 1: Begin with, like even a mechanical knowledge, just just a 395 00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:16,759 mechanical this is how it works when you look up. 396 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I've I've just always kind of 397 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:26,640 really thought that's that's interesting. And uh, I think one 398 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,119 thing that might be kind of an interesting direction to 399 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,839 go with our conversation. Conversation now, then what would be 400 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,319 to say, can we take a concrete example of something 401 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,720 in astronomy, something you know, looking at the heavens, a 402 00:25:39,799 --> 00:25:44,319 concrete example of how enriching your thinking in this way 403 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,599 it could help you appreciate the scriptures more. It could 404 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,279 help you appreciate the church calendar more. Obviously, you know, 405 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,440 even the very you know, data of Easter requires very 406 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:59,400 sophisticated astrological knowledge, you know, and I am and I 407 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,119 do use the word astrology advisably here. What I mean 408 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:07,960 by that is, uh, you know, you've got astronomos, which 409 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:09,640 is the law or the culture of the stars, you know, 410 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:10,880 how the stars relate to each other. 411 00:26:11,079 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 1: I prefer culture. 412 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:14,759 Speaker 2: Culture, Yes, nomos is culture is much better a transition 413 00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:17,480 of normals. Yeah, So the culture of the stars. And 414 00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:19,799 then you have astor logos, which is the word of 415 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:21,920 the stars, which is, in other words, this is what 416 00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:24,559 they say tell us about, right, And so you can 417 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,039 you can do that in a wrong way obviously, and 418 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,519 I would say any use of that that the Church 419 00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:32,119 condemns is not what I'm trying to talk about or 420 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,039 advance here. But there is also there is a thing 421 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,400 that the that the the heavens tell us, which is 422 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,519 of course a glory of God. And we just read that, 423 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:42,519 you know when it says their line has gone out 424 00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:45,039 into all the earth. That's the logos of the stars, right, 425 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,480 that's the astro logos. So one of the things that 426 00:26:48,559 --> 00:26:51,400 the stars tell us is when when is pasca right? 427 00:26:52,079 --> 00:26:57,839 So let me put this to you in a form 428 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:03,359 of a question, what does spring mean astronomically in any way, 429 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,680 do you want to you take that direction. Yeah, Well, 430 00:27:06,039 --> 00:27:08,960 because I bring this up specifically because I've had conversations 431 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,680 with people, even even Orthodox people who because they're they're 432 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:18,039 working off still a kind of you know baseline, I think, 433 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,319 sort of evangelical materialism that they you know, they'd say, 434 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:26,119 you know, that's basically this idea that it's actually the 435 00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:29,880 fact that Christ rose from the dead, you know, at 436 00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:33,079 or around the vernal equinox, right, the fact that Christ 437 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,839 rose from the dead in springtime, you know, you know, 438 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,000 in the you know, with all the which the fact 439 00:27:41,039 --> 00:27:45,640 of declaring something that it is spring is is that's astrology, 440 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,160 that's astronomy, like to say it's spring. Now, what do 441 00:27:49,279 --> 00:27:50,680 we mean by that, Well, we mean the sun is 442 00:27:50,759 --> 00:27:52,759 in a certain position, the stars around the sun are 443 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:54,799 in a certain position, and that's how we know it's 444 00:27:54,839 --> 00:27:59,039 the equinox. So but anyway, that the idea that the crime, 445 00:27:59,759 --> 00:28:02,160 the idea that Christ did this at this time is 446 00:28:02,519 --> 00:28:06,839 essentially arbitrary and it just happened that it just happened 447 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,160 to work out that way, or or if there is 448 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:13,440 a meaning there, it's a meaning that we have imposed 449 00:28:13,599 --> 00:28:16,279 upon it. Ourselves. You know, we've just said, oh, look 450 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,240 look at I noticed these two things happened at the 451 00:28:18,279 --> 00:28:20,720 same time. And so I'm going to read a meaning 452 00:28:20,839 --> 00:28:25,160 in but there's no sort of intrinsic meaning, which I 453 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,240 don't I just refuse to accept, I guess. And so anyway, 454 00:28:29,319 --> 00:28:30,079 so what a spring mean? 455 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:36,319 Speaker 1: Well, this is a beautiful question because you could say 456 00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:44,559 so many different things. But I I think as a 457 00:28:44,799 --> 00:28:49,880 as a way to go back to an ancient context, 458 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,640 there's an idea that Earth is the receptive principle and 459 00:28:55,799 --> 00:29:01,599 Heaven is the initiatory or the active principle. And ancient 460 00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,240 people doesn't matter where you were, if you were in 461 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:10,359 if you were an Aztec, or you were a Pacific islander, 462 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,720 you had a sense that every good thing came to 463 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,240 you from Heaven, whether it was sun or rain, or 464 00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:23,720 warm air, or the growth of crops or the expansion 465 00:29:23,799 --> 00:29:27,960 and contraction of daylight. You had the sense that Earth 466 00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:36,160 received the blessings of Heaven. And springtime, especially thinking about 467 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:42,359 the equinox, is that moment of perfect harmony between night 468 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,400 and day twelve hours equal of night and day around 469 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:52,240 March twenty first, and also coinciding with the moment that 470 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:58,319 Heaven is calling life back out of dormant earth. And 471 00:29:58,559 --> 00:30:01,519 so for the ancient world, the idea of springtime is 472 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,039 not just oh well, we live on a mechanical kind 473 00:30:05,079 --> 00:30:08,920 of ball of rock that you know, it floats around 474 00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:13,160 through empty space and it just happens to get warmer 475 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,039 and cooler at regular intervals. But you know, that's just 476 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,200 kind of it's all according to impersonal laws. For the 477 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,559 ancient world, there's there was a sense of this is 478 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,519 the promise of God renewed, this is the union of 479 00:30:28,599 --> 00:30:32,359 Heaven and Earth being restored to us, or we're being 480 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,640 reminded of it once again. 481 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,559 Speaker 2: And the. 482 00:30:37,319 --> 00:30:41,559 Speaker 1: Coincidence of spring and resurrection would have been very obvious 483 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:46,319 to ancient Christians. This is the time that resurrection is appropriate. 484 00:30:46,759 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 2: And of course Christmas also Christmas at right at the 485 00:30:49,359 --> 00:30:54,599 at the winter solstice, which I'm a very strong believer 486 00:30:54,799 --> 00:30:58,079 that you know, this is you know, this is the 487 00:30:58,119 --> 00:30:59,920 time of year Christ was born. You know, I don't 488 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,599 I don't see any compelling reason to you know, I 489 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,759 know some people try to make arguments around you know, 490 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,000 the Jewish lunar calendar and all these different things, but 491 00:31:07,759 --> 00:31:10,839 I would just say, you know, this is the date 492 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,160 the Church has always has always used, and I don't 493 00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:17,160 see any reason to you know, it's I'm a little 494 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:22,559 suspicious actually of the debunking impulse, because it seems like 495 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,119 the thing that the reason that people reject the traditional 496 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,400 date of Christmas, for instance, is because it makes too 497 00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:37,519 much sense, and deep down you have this feeling, deep down, 498 00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:40,680 you have this feeling that well, if something's you know, 499 00:31:40,799 --> 00:31:43,640 if something really happened historically, then it's all got to 500 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,440 kind of be random and undifferentiated. But the things don't 501 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,519 happen in the symbolic ways, which I would just say, 502 00:31:50,519 --> 00:31:53,720 based on my own experience of my time on this earth, 503 00:31:53,839 --> 00:31:58,160 is not true. You know, almost everything major that's happened 504 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,119 in my life has happened in the symbolic way. And 505 00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:02,599 you know, yeah, you can say maybe you're reading some 506 00:32:02,759 --> 00:32:04,680 kind of pattern and that's not there, but I don't, 507 00:32:04,799 --> 00:32:06,319 you know, I don't think that's the case. You know, 508 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,920 but it's not a coincidence that, you know, Christ, the 509 00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:12,839 light of the world comes into the world at the 510 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,519 darkest dight, you know, the air well. 511 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: I hear people make the argument, oh, Saturnalia or this 512 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:27,079 was a pagan festival or something like that. Whether whether 513 00:32:27,119 --> 00:32:32,440 there's historical validity due to that or not is really unimportant, 514 00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:40,359 because if you're going to reject every pagan element in Christianity, 515 00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:42,920 well it's going to be a long project, and you'll 516 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,880 have to start with the crucifixion because crucifixion itself was 517 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,880 a pagan practice. Right, So where do you begin and 518 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:53,960 where do you end if you're trying to purge the 519 00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:58,079 Church of pagan elements? And Christ says specifically, I am 520 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,799 I am bringing together jew and Gentile to make something new. 521 00:33:03,039 --> 00:33:07,079 And so the early Christians thought of Plato as being 522 00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:13,680 the gentile Moses, and they Saint John begins his Gospel 523 00:33:13,799 --> 00:33:16,599 with the phrase that you know that that Christ is 524 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,039 the logos, which is borrowing from pagan philosophy, if you 525 00:33:21,079 --> 00:33:24,319 want to, if you want to follow that. So if 526 00:33:24,359 --> 00:33:28,720 you if you try to somebody who uses the argument 527 00:33:29,079 --> 00:33:32,319 a Christmas was a pagan holiday, I wonder do you 528 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,279 are you really trying to think through how Christmas came 529 00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:38,720 to be or you're just looking for an excuse to argue. 530 00:33:38,839 --> 00:33:44,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. So 531 00:33:44,839 --> 00:33:46,200 I'm going to read you a little bit from Saint 532 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:47,000 John of Damascus. 533 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: Wait, should I prepare myself as this anti? 534 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: I just I just really think it's it's quite fun. 535 00:33:55,759 --> 00:33:59,039 This is from his exact exposition of the Orthodox faith. Okay, 536 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,680 you know, so you know this is as close to 537 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,200 an authoritative document on what what Orthodoxy teaches about various 538 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,400 subjects as you're probably ever likely to find you for 539 00:34:09,559 --> 00:34:13,559 being honest, you know. And it says so, then it 540 00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:16,599 is the Sun that makes the seasons, and through them 541 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,599 the year. It likewise makes the days and nights, the 542 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:21,800 day when it rises and is above the earth, and 543 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,159 the knights when it sets below the earth, and it 544 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,719 bestows on the other luminaries, both moon and stars, the 545 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,960 power of giving forth light. Further, they say that they're 546 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,000 in the heaven twelve signs made by the stars, and 547 00:34:32,079 --> 00:34:34,159 that these move in an opposite direction to the Sun 548 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,599 and Moon and the other five planets, and that the 549 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:40,840 seven planets pass across these twelve signs. Further, the Sun 550 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,280 makes a complete month in each sign, and traverses the 551 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,760 twelve signs in the same number of months. These then 552 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,760 are the name of the twelve signs and the respective months, 553 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,199 And then he gives the zodiac and the dates of 554 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:54,480 the zodiac, beginning with the Ram which receives the sun 555 00:34:54,519 --> 00:34:56,119 in the twenty first of March, which is of course 556 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,039 right at or around the vernal equinox, and also Pasca. 557 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,280 Speaker 1: Right, it's traditional to when you're obviously the zodiac signs 558 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,679 are in a circle, but it's traditional to start with Ares. 559 00:35:08,159 --> 00:35:10,599 Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, the beginning of the beginning of the year. 560 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 561 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 2: And then he goes on to talk about all of this, 562 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:17,239 and he he the only thing that he says is 563 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,000 wrong about the way that the Greeks before before Christ 564 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,719 understood this is to say that these things control our wills. 565 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,760 And I think that I think that Christianity as such 566 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,400 has always rejected any form of determinism. So we recently, 567 00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:37,920 Jonathan and I just recently finished teaching through Parediso, and 568 00:35:38,039 --> 00:35:40,760 so in our very first lecture of the Parediso class, 569 00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:44,079 I did kind of like a crash course in medieval astronomy, 570 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,440 so people would under you know, understand some of the 571 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,920 astronomical and astrological references in Parediso and throughout the comedy, 572 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,239 and then also just understand what are the things that 573 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:56,960 what are the things that people in Dante's time believed, 574 00:35:57,079 --> 00:35:59,119 So you can actually see where he's differing from them 575 00:35:59,199 --> 00:36:01,639 and changes that he's making that that are important to 576 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,760 his point. But then also, what are the what are 577 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:09,840 the what are the the the things that have actually 578 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,519 been you know, because obviously as soon as you mentioned 579 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,480 even the name of a of a constellation, very often 580 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:18,000 certain Christians get a little itchy about it. Yeah, like 581 00:36:18,079 --> 00:36:20,360 hold on, you know, so what are the things that 582 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,559 church has actually proscribed? And I would say it's divination 583 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,119 and especially divination, divinatory practices associated with idolatry, which is, 584 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,519 you know, most of them in the ancient world. And 585 00:36:32,639 --> 00:36:36,519 then any form of you could call it astral determinism, 586 00:36:36,679 --> 00:36:40,480 the idea that we don't have any kind of free 587 00:36:40,519 --> 00:36:42,280 will that you can just sort of blame, blame your 588 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,400 luck on the stars and so on. Now, what's interesting 589 00:36:45,519 --> 00:36:48,000 is that nowadays people don't do that with stars. But 590 00:36:48,119 --> 00:36:52,280 it's it's not because we're pious or anything like that, 591 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,320 is just because we don't believe there's any connection anymore. 592 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,880 But we do blame all kinds of things on your 593 00:36:59,079 --> 00:37:04,320 Meersbriggs person high or your your aneagram, your aneagram. I 594 00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:08,880 very often, just to be a little provocative, sometimes somebody 595 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,920 will mention the Aneagram in a in a conversation, and 596 00:37:12,039 --> 00:37:15,320 please don't hate me Anyagram people. But I'm always like, 597 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,760 oh yeah, astrology is just aneogram for Christians, you know, 598 00:37:18,559 --> 00:37:21,840 just to just mess with people a little bit, you know. 599 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:27,559 But you're aneagram or or if you're like a science bro, 600 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,360 or you're even just like a podcast bro, maybe you're 601 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,440 really into Oh well, you know, I've got these certain 602 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:35,719 chemicals in my brain. I got to get the serotonin 603 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,159 and the cortisol got to go. These things balanced out, 604 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,559 and I'm feeling really bad today, but it's because my 605 00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:42,360 stress level is high because of this, you know. And 606 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,199 so to me, what it seems like is we still 607 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,320 basically believe in these various forms of determinism, and we 608 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,960 even sort ourselves in categories by you know, alpha, beta, sigma, 609 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:57,119 or you know, Aneagram types. I'm a seven weeing twelve. 610 00:37:57,199 --> 00:38:01,679 I don't know any Agram things or or or you know, 611 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:03,679 Myers Briggs types or whatever. 612 00:38:04,039 --> 00:38:04,199 Speaker 1: You know. 613 00:38:04,519 --> 00:38:07,039 Speaker 2: I'm a I'm a cat, you're a dog. You know, 614 00:38:07,039 --> 00:38:09,400 all these different things. So we still have determinism, but 615 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,079 the determinism is like from the ground up instead of 616 00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:15,199 from the heavens down. And I think that's the that's 617 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,639 the real difference in what we're kind of dealing with today. 618 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,079 And the funny thing is that, for instance, Thomas Aquinas, 619 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:27,239 his argument is that these things are mostly true, like 620 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:34,320 there is a there is a there is an effect Aquinas, 621 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:36,679 what are you There is an effect based on the 622 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,440 time of year that you're born, on your personality and 623 00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:43,880 disposition for things. Now, you can chalk that up to 624 00:38:44,039 --> 00:38:47,239 the influences of the stars and planets. You can chalk 625 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,079 that up to you know, in modern terms. You could 626 00:38:50,119 --> 00:38:52,280 come up with some kind of naturalistic way to explain this, 627 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,599 but you could say, yeah, it's the time and circumstances 628 00:38:56,639 --> 00:38:58,400 of your birth will affect the kind of person that 629 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,639 you are to some extent. And he said, because most 630 00:39:01,679 --> 00:39:07,119 of us do not exercise our free wills, you can 631 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,440 basically use these kinds of things. And I would I 632 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,760 would lump like personality tests and all those other things 633 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,159 we just talked about into this. You can use those 634 00:39:15,159 --> 00:39:17,480 Those things are true in the same way that an 635 00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:20,920 actuarial table is true. Because most people are just governed 636 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,280 by their passions. Most people are just governed by their 637 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,039 you know, by their their wants and desires and they don't, 638 00:39:28,119 --> 00:39:30,960 you know, they don't look up, they don't you know, 639 00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:35,360 exercise their their reason, they don't exercise their will. So 640 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,480 because of that, you can say that these things are 641 00:39:37,519 --> 00:39:40,960 true about people in general, but they don't have to be, 642 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,079 you know. I think that I think where I've kind 643 00:39:44,079 --> 00:39:45,840 of come down on the question of free will, and 644 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,400 I think this is really the Christian view of it, 645 00:39:48,559 --> 00:39:51,920 is that everybody has has free will, at least potentially, 646 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,119 but only some people have a will that's really free, 647 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,840 you know. And that's that's what the saints are, you know, 648 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,400 because they're they're in total alignment with God and with 649 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,960 God's desires. So John of Damascus talks about this, and 650 00:40:04,079 --> 00:40:07,760 he says, all right, the stars aren't the causes of 651 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,840 the things that occur, nor the origin of the things 652 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,840 that come to pass. He's talking about human events here, 653 00:40:12,199 --> 00:40:14,159 nor the destruction of those things that perish. They are 654 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:19,159 rather signs of showers and changes of air. And then 655 00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:23,559 he goes on to say that they're not the causes 656 00:40:23,599 --> 00:40:25,199 of wars, yet they are the signs of them. And 657 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,079 in truth, the quality of the air which is produced 658 00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:29,760 by the sun, wind, stars produces in various ways different 659 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,800 temperaments and habits and dispositions. But the habits are among 660 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:36,440 the things that we have in our own hands, for 661 00:40:36,559 --> 00:40:38,639 it is reason that rules and directs and changes them. 662 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,519 So it's a very similar idea, like, you're not necessarily 663 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,199 bound by these things, but they are in some way 664 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,480 kind of related to who you are, at least to 665 00:40:49,559 --> 00:40:52,119 begin with. And then he goes on to say no, 666 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,280 it also happens the commets arise, and these are obviously 667 00:40:56,679 --> 00:41:01,960 signs of the death of kings, and so not even 668 00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:03,440 the star which the maje I saw at the birth 669 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:05,119 of the Friend and Savior of Man, our Lord, who 670 00:41:05,199 --> 00:41:06,840 became flesh for our sake, is of the number of 671 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,360 those that were made in the beginning. And this is 672 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,320 evidently the case, because sometimes its course was from east 673 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,400 to west, sometimes from north to south. At one moment 674 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,639 it was hidden, and at the next it was revealed, 675 00:41:16,679 --> 00:41:18,199 which is quite out of harmony with the order of 676 00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:19,960 nature of stars, which is very much along the signs 677 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,079 of Saint John. Chris system is homily on the star 678 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,920 that the magi followed, which, of course Saint John is 679 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,760 one of the hardest on astrology, or even he would 680 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,239 Saint John would say that the study of the stars 681 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,880 is only for the spiritually mature person because there's some 682 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,360 inherent danger in it because of the astrological pagan context, 683 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,400 which is still very much going on in Europe in 684 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:46,079 the Christian world at the time that Saint John was around. 685 00:41:46,519 --> 00:41:52,639 But Saint John gives a whole kind of homily on 686 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,519 the star that the magi followed, and is very clear 687 00:41:55,679 --> 00:42:01,400 he has very deep, deep astronomical understanding him self, because 688 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,840 he he basically says, Okay, stars normally behave in this way, 689 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,239 and planets normally behave in this way, and this star 690 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,840 this is something else. And uh, and so that's that's 691 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,639 an interesting question. I'll tell you. Ah, this is getting 692 00:42:14,639 --> 00:42:16,480 a little rambly, I guess. But I'll tell you kind 693 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,639 of a fun tradition that I encountered this year which 694 00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:23,519 I did not know before, which is that, uh, it's 695 00:42:23,639 --> 00:42:26,440 it's another Syriac tradition. I like. I like Syrian stuff. 696 00:42:27,119 --> 00:42:28,599 Speaker 1: We need more of it, way more of it. 697 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, way more of it. One of the things I'd 698 00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,039 like to do with symbolic world in the coming years 699 00:42:34,199 --> 00:42:38,920 is actually, uh, bring into existence some really beautiful editions 700 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,559 of translations of Syriac camnography and poetry and you know, 701 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:44,880 homeletic verses and things like this. There have been some 702 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,719 really good translations that have been done, you know, obviously, 703 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,360 but so many of them have just terrible, terrible binding, 704 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:55,639 And I feel like this is a problem I could fix, 705 00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,280 you know. But anyway, there's a Syriac tradition that the 706 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,920 star which the mage I followed is the same angel 707 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,960 that grabbed the prophet Hebacic by the hair and brought 708 00:43:09,039 --> 00:43:12,239 him to Daniel in the Book of Daniel. Wow. And 709 00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:15,880 when I read that, it's just like a footnote in something. Actually, 710 00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:22,880 it's referred to in Saint Romanos's Canon on the Nativity, 711 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,960 the famous Kentuckia Kentuckian rather on the Nativity, and so 712 00:43:28,079 --> 00:43:30,199 it was a footnote in that edition and I came 713 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,800 across it, It's like what and also why? And I've 714 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:35,679 been noodling on it kind of ever since then, And 715 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,280 as you were talking, it just kind of hit me that, well, obviously, 716 00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:44,000 it's because Daniel was an astrologer, and that's the you know, 717 00:43:44,039 --> 00:43:46,880 of course, Daniel's all the you know, apocalyptic visions in 718 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,239 the Book of Daniel are all very astronomy astronomical astrological 719 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,639 in nature, and he is the usually you know, traditionally 720 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,880 considered to be the sort of the source of the 721 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,840 knowledge of the True God, which carries on somehow in 722 00:44:03,039 --> 00:44:06,119 the land in the far eastern lands Babylon, Persia, et cetera, 723 00:44:06,639 --> 00:44:09,760 which is ultimately inherited by the magi who come to 724 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:14,079 worship Christ. And so that's the connection kind of between 725 00:44:14,119 --> 00:44:15,360 the two, and I just thought that. 726 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,679 Speaker 1: Was really that's a great life, that's a great tradition. Well, 727 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,360 it also speaks to the ancient idea of hierarchy because 728 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,440 in the cosmology, of course, we'll talk about the seven. 729 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,079 Speaker 2: Heavens in this idea of a time to mention, well, yes, 730 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,760 why we're even high are we doing? I'm so bad 731 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,440 at this, you guys, all right, So the whole actually, 732 00:44:35,559 --> 00:44:37,440 I really just wanted to have the conversation with Josh 733 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:41,239 in general, and then we decided it would be really 734 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:43,679 great to actually have a whole course on cosmology. So 735 00:44:44,079 --> 00:44:47,320 the whole reason that we're talking about this is for 736 00:44:47,639 --> 00:44:51,079 so Josh can can introduce to introduce you guys to 737 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,039 Josh because Josh and maybe with a little bit of 738 00:44:54,079 --> 00:44:57,880 help from me, in the in the late late January, 739 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,559 he'll be doing a worse for us on cosmology. We're 740 00:45:01,559 --> 00:45:04,159 gonna get really deep down into into all of these things, 741 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,800 you know, and and hopefully dig into the you know, 742 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,559 the objections, dig into the things that make a squeamish, 743 00:45:09,639 --> 00:45:11,719 but also ultimately try to find out like what is 744 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,760 the real what's the real real way for its to 745 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,559 to approach these things, to appropriate them, and to teach 746 00:45:19,639 --> 00:45:21,400 them as part of a Christian education. 747 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:27,960 Speaker 1: So well, in just the the practical idea of being 748 00:45:28,079 --> 00:45:31,559 able to go out with yourself or your kids or 749 00:45:31,599 --> 00:45:35,559 your friends and do some stargazing at night and know 750 00:45:36,679 --> 00:45:39,480 how to orient yourself to the night sky and where 751 00:45:39,559 --> 00:45:42,559 would the planets be and how fast do they move 752 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,599 and what do we see in their relationship to each other? 753 00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:51,559 Because it's just fun. But for the ancient world this 754 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,320 was more than just fun. It was deeply important. Like 755 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,360 the ancient people knew the sky the way that we 756 00:45:58,519 --> 00:46:00,440 know the highways around our own right cities. 757 00:46:00,679 --> 00:46:04,800 Speaker 2: So I think it would be very difficult to understand 758 00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,719 that just the baseline knowledge of the night sky that 759 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,880 your average person person in the ancient world would have 760 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,960 had and taken for granted. I mean when you when 761 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,679 you read denunciations against astrology and things like that, what 762 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,400 they're really addressing is people who have I mean, all 763 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,320 the way back to ancient Babylonians, they made very detailed 764 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,039 omen charts for different kinds of omens that you could 765 00:46:30,039 --> 00:46:32,280 see in the sky, different kinds of omens that you know, 766 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,039 could also happen down here. There's you know, I don't 767 00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:36,599 want to get too much into it, but in an 768 00:46:36,599 --> 00:46:40,480 ancient Babylonian divination, there was idea there's like, there's omens 769 00:46:40,559 --> 00:46:42,400 up here, there's omens here, and there's omens down here, 770 00:46:42,599 --> 00:46:45,119 and each one of them is sort of addressing, you know, 771 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:51,519 life at a different level. And they made detailed, in 772 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,920 you know, crazily detailed charts for all of this stuff. 773 00:46:55,639 --> 00:46:57,960 And so when those things are condemned, I mean, that's 774 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:01,119 really what we're talking about. But as far as the 775 00:47:01,159 --> 00:47:03,679 basic knowledge of the sun, the moon, and the stars 776 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:06,840 and a belief that that they have some kind of 777 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,519 influence in the world, that's not the thing that's that's 778 00:47:09,599 --> 00:47:13,079 usually being condemned. So anyway, that being said, to continue 779 00:47:13,159 --> 00:47:13,719 your point. 780 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 1: Well, I was gonna say, I'm fascinated about the the 781 00:47:17,679 --> 00:47:20,519 angel you grabed habacic by the hair. If you have this, 782 00:47:20,679 --> 00:47:22,880 if you live in a hierarchical world, then of course 783 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,320 you you have some angels that are closer to us 784 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,599 and some that are further away. You have this idea 785 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,360 of the seven heavens, and so for an angel to 786 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:36,400 be able to guide the magi and move around, that 787 00:47:36,559 --> 00:47:39,440 angel has to be close enough to also grab somebody 788 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,679 by the hair and yeah, take them one place from others. 789 00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:47,000 Speaker 2: I just sorry, I just it's a cool Uh, it's 790 00:47:47,039 --> 00:47:48,800 just a cool image. And of course I think it's 791 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,920 an Hebactics prophecy that you get this image of the 792 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,400 mountain overshadowed by the forest and like all those things 793 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,599 which are ultimately prophecies of the incarnation. And of course 794 00:47:57,639 --> 00:48:00,159 then and that's also a move from like from Israel 795 00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,400 or Jerusalem to Babylon, and then the major are coming 796 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,280 from Babylon back the other way. And so it's yeah, 797 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:10,480 it's uh, it's really interesting. And I don't know much 798 00:48:10,519 --> 00:48:13,000 more about the tradition other than that that factoid, but 799 00:48:13,079 --> 00:48:15,239 I am determined to dig into it in the following year, 800 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:16,480 so I'll let you know what I fine. 801 00:48:17,119 --> 00:48:20,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So one of the one of the things 802 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,199 you also mentioned. You you were talking about people that 803 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,000 dig into Uh, can you all. 804 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,199 Speaker 2: See this beautiful cargos These. 805 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 1: People will they'll get deeply into astrology or the Myers 806 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:46,280 Briggs or whatever the latest kind of dietary chemical kind 807 00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:52,599 of thing is. And positively, we all feel disconnected from 808 00:48:53,559 --> 00:48:57,159 the reality around us. And these are all ways, maybe 809 00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:02,440 over simplifications, but they're all ways to try to make 810 00:49:03,679 --> 00:49:06,920 sense or to see the sense because we're because we're 811 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,960 not making sense. The sense is there, but try to 812 00:49:10,119 --> 00:49:14,679 see the pattern and the sense and get a grasp 813 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:20,039 on the union of the physical and the emotional. But 814 00:49:20,159 --> 00:49:22,880 one of the things that I would love to see 815 00:49:23,559 --> 00:49:29,280 is that spiritually minded people understand astronomy well enough that 816 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,400 if somebody comes and says, well, I'm a Libra, I'm 817 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,199 supposed to have a bad day today, you could say, well, 818 00:49:36,199 --> 00:49:38,800 do you know why this period of time is you know, 819 00:49:41,119 --> 00:49:45,159 is Libra or Aquarius, And to have those with a 820 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,239 more symbolic understanding say, well, it's because we would know 821 00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,960 that it's when the sun is in that particular zodiac sign, and. 822 00:49:54,039 --> 00:49:56,159 Speaker 2: We would be aware of I think most of the 823 00:49:56,159 --> 00:49:58,039 people what's going on in the heavens we'd like to 824 00:49:58,039 --> 00:50:00,199 talk about those kinds of things, could not act atually 825 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,519 pick out Libra in the sky, let alone tell you. 826 00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:05,239 You know that it's got something to do with this 827 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,199 thirty degree arc the sun makes across the sky throughout 828 00:50:08,199 --> 00:50:10,480 the year. And you know it's not just any other 829 00:50:10,559 --> 00:50:13,920 constellation that's these in particular because of all those things. 830 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, related to this and back to kind of the 831 00:50:18,639 --> 00:50:28,400 broad context is all throughout ancient literature, whether it's Greek, Hebrew, wherever, 832 00:50:29,119 --> 00:50:36,519 there's a constant reiteration that the inner life of man 833 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:43,159 and the exterior appearance or world of the stars and 834 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:47,960 planets are connected to each other, like like the hour glass, 835 00:50:48,079 --> 00:50:50,239 and we're kind of at the center, and then there's 836 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,920 this interior life that we have that echoes the movements 837 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,960 of the stars. And all of these ancient sources say, 838 00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:03,039 if you want to order your inner life, your mental, emotional, 839 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:10,760 even the deepest, most spiritual and intangible parts of yourself, 840 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,480 if you want to order those, you have to be 841 00:51:14,639 --> 00:51:19,559 observing the movements of the heavens, because that because this 842 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,719 interior part of me is modeled on this exterior part 843 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,519 of me, and as a human being, I'm joining all 844 00:51:27,599 --> 00:51:28,599 of these things together. 845 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:32,840 Speaker 2: And I think that even our understanding of the saints 846 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:38,239 of the heavenly hierarchy of how we you know, obviously 847 00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,280 period Dante's got a sup you know, the Paradiso is 848 00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,079 a supreme example of this, where he shows you a 849 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,800 hierarchy that's based on the cosmology of the heavens, and 850 00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:50,760 then you get to the very top and it's like, okay, 851 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:52,599 well it's maybe not like that at all. Maybe it's 852 00:51:52,599 --> 00:51:55,079 actually like this, you know, and the rose, you know. 853 00:51:55,199 --> 00:52:01,639 But the idea is that that are our very earliest 854 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,079 idea of the saints, when God tells Abraham's descendants will 855 00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:08,079 be as the stars of heaven, right, our various early ideas, 856 00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,639 our very earliest ideas of the saints, you know, the 857 00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:18,440 heavenly host from the scriptures basically record fallback on this, 858 00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,440 on this, this pastoral imagery. You know, it's the closest 859 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,599 you could say, you know, in the visible world. It's 860 00:52:24,639 --> 00:52:27,159 the closest thing that we have that shows us the 861 00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:31,920 order and the beauty ultimately the invisible world. And and yes, 862 00:52:32,119 --> 00:52:36,159 our fate lies. As early Christian thinkers, even people like Origin, 863 00:52:36,199 --> 00:52:40,639 always insisted that the fate of the of the the 864 00:52:40,679 --> 00:52:42,840 Seed of Abraham, that is Christ and those who are 865 00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:47,960 in Christ. That there our destiny lies above the stars, 866 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,199 which is why. So this is one of the things 867 00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,760 that I talked about when I was doing I give it. 868 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,000 I give a pretty long talk on astrology and astrological 869 00:52:58,039 --> 00:53:00,440 imagery in the Bible and in the church others, and 870 00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,119 how it's used and what's what's out, what's in all 871 00:53:03,159 --> 00:53:05,800 those things at the Lord of Spirits conference earlier this year. 872 00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,199 But one of the things that I talked about is 873 00:53:08,639 --> 00:53:11,639 is this, uh, you know, the four living creatures, you know, 874 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,840 the Cherubim, which or the you know, the four beasts 875 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,440 of the four Living creatures, and Easy and Revelation, which 876 00:53:18,599 --> 00:53:24,840 are uh the four cardinal points of the Zoda. But 877 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,039 what's interesting is that in Christian art they're almost always 878 00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:35,159 uh portrayed flipped. And I think that the the insight 879 00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,280 I had into this is that it's because you're looking 880 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,360 at them always from the top down, and so you 881 00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,679 have all this astrological imagery in the scriptures. But for instance, 882 00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:48,840 the the stars are under the feet of the Theotokos, 883 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:50,679 the Virgin, the woman of the Apocalypse, right, you know, 884 00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:54,159 the moon is under her under her feet, whereas normally 885 00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:59,280 in an image of a chronocratoris that the like the 886 00:53:59,519 --> 00:54:01,719 rulers of the time lords, if you will, in a 887 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,239 Hellenic zodiac, they would show usually two figures, one with 888 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:08,840 a helios for the sun, and then you know, Phoebe 889 00:54:09,079 --> 00:54:12,559 for the moon, and the one would be crowned with 890 00:54:12,599 --> 00:54:14,440 the sun a man, and the other would be crowned 891 00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:17,440 with the moon as a woman. But the image that 892 00:54:17,519 --> 00:54:21,880 you find in the Apocalypse is of the moon under 893 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:24,119 her feet, and there is I think there is a 894 00:54:24,199 --> 00:54:30,480 sense in which the Church has, you know, in what 895 00:54:30,639 --> 00:54:34,000 our Lord has done in elevating our humanity, which is 896 00:54:34,079 --> 00:54:38,000 also his humanity, you know, above the stars, at the 897 00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,719 right hand of the Father, in the seat of power, 898 00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:46,519 ruling and reigning over the cosmos, is to subject all 899 00:54:46,519 --> 00:54:48,360 these things to us. And so there is a kind 900 00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,280 of replacement, if you will, like the way that the 901 00:54:50,559 --> 00:54:53,119 twelve apostles replaced the signs of the zodiac. The way 902 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,599 and this is why, so why early Christians did not 903 00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:02,440 celebrate their birthdays, because because there's there well, I mean, 904 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,159 common common people didn't celebrate their birthdays anyway. You celebrate 905 00:55:06,199 --> 00:55:09,079 the emperor's birthday, you know. But but early Christians didn't 906 00:55:09,079 --> 00:55:11,559 celebrate the birthdays. That's where the practice of celebrating a 907 00:55:11,679 --> 00:55:15,400 name day comes from, is to say, ultimately, the most 908 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,400 important thing about you is not that you were born 909 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:22,760 on you know, in this configuration of the heavens, but 910 00:55:23,119 --> 00:55:26,199 but rather that you know that for me, the the 911 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,039 truth about my life, about who I am, has something 912 00:55:29,079 --> 00:55:31,960 to do with Saint Seraphim Sarov. And it doesn't mean 913 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:33,679 I'm very much like him, you know, other than the 914 00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,960 chronic back pain. But but but hopefully I could be, 915 00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:40,480 and hopefully I could be. But he's the thing that's 916 00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:44,119 that's ruling over my life. That's the like the guiding principality, 917 00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,639 you know, ultimately you know through him, you know Christ. 918 00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,719 But but but that's the idea of celebrating the name 919 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,559 day instead of the birthday. And you know, modern practice 920 00:55:53,599 --> 00:55:55,880 we celebrate both. And I think it's basically okay. But 921 00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,519 but the thing is, none of that actually makes any 922 00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:07,679 sense unless you get the baseline knowledge of the stars, 923 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,559 planets and heavens, which everybody had, not just in medieval times, 924 00:56:11,639 --> 00:56:14,280 not just in ancient times, pretty much until city lights 925 00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,960 came along. I mean, I think that probably the two 926 00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:23,880 most destructive things in terms of the modern worldview are 927 00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:27,320 you know, electrical lighting, which of course I make it 928 00:56:27,400 --> 00:56:29,719 take advantage of just like everybody else, you know, to 929 00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:32,400 stay up night working when I should be sleeping, you know. 930 00:56:34,599 --> 00:56:36,079 And then just the fact that you can buy any 931 00:56:36,079 --> 00:56:38,559 food you want any time of the year, which which 932 00:56:39,079 --> 00:56:41,679 has a weird way of totally disconnecting us. 933 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,159 Speaker 1: Well, what you just said was you we've destroyed our 934 00:56:45,199 --> 00:56:47,960 connection to heaven and our connection to Earth, right both, 935 00:56:48,159 --> 00:56:49,280 and so where are we? 936 00:56:49,559 --> 00:56:52,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? And that that comes out of that idea of 937 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,280 the Cairos, that there's a proper time for something, which 938 00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,800 is the main thing that you know, observing the stars 939 00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:00,760 was used for in the ancient world, is to determine 940 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,079 the proper time, whether it's the proper time for an 941 00:57:03,119 --> 00:57:06,280 idolatrous ritual, but also when is the proper time to plant. 942 00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:07,559 I mean, that's the whole reason you have to know 943 00:57:07,639 --> 00:57:10,480 when the equinox is coming, is because the world, as 944 00:57:10,519 --> 00:57:13,559 Saint John of Damascus will tell you, Earth lags behind 945 00:57:13,599 --> 00:57:17,760 the heavens by a few weeks. So in most of 946 00:57:18,239 --> 00:57:21,119 northern Europe, where my ancestors are from, for instance, it 947 00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,559 is not spring at the vernal equinox. The vernal equinox 948 00:57:24,599 --> 00:57:27,880 tells you spring will be here soon, but it's still 949 00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:32,000 quite cold. And but so you need to know when 950 00:57:32,039 --> 00:57:34,079 the vernal equinox is because you need you need to 951 00:57:34,159 --> 00:57:36,199 know when When should I get ready? When should I 952 00:57:36,599 --> 00:57:38,159 get ready to plant? When should I get ready to 953 00:57:38,199 --> 00:57:40,239 do the other things? The warm air is coming, The 954 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:44,079 warm air is coming, the sunlight is coming. So what's 955 00:57:44,159 --> 00:57:48,440 the what's the what's the proper, proper and fitting time, 956 00:57:48,559 --> 00:57:52,159 the chirotic moment for spring to begin. You know, that's 957 00:57:52,199 --> 00:57:54,480 what the that's what the equinox is telling you, and 958 00:57:54,559 --> 00:57:56,840 that's what aris is telling you. That's what spring is. 959 00:57:56,880 --> 00:58:00,559 That's what spring means. Life is coming, you know. And 960 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:05,280 we don't have to know that anymore. It's it's not interesting. 961 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:09,039 It's it's barely important that the vernal equinox, you know 962 00:58:09,119 --> 00:58:11,199 what day exactly it falls on. You know, it bas 963 00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,079 for me, it basically affects you know what, I guess 964 00:58:14,159 --> 00:58:16,840 my heating and cooling bill a little bit, what I 965 00:58:17,119 --> 00:58:21,119 you know, That's that's about it. You know. So the 966 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:26,320 fact that and and I think that the goal of modernity, 967 00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:28,559 one of the goals of modernity has been to totally 968 00:58:28,639 --> 00:58:32,079 cut us off from cairos. There are no fitting moments 969 00:58:32,119 --> 00:58:35,360 for things, and this started with religion. There's no fitting 970 00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,920 day on which you have to worship God. There's no 971 00:58:38,079 --> 00:58:40,400 fitting day on which you have to celebrate his birth 972 00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:45,079 or his resurrection. There's no fitting day on which you 973 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,000 would celebrate, you know, your name, day on which you 974 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:52,280 would celebrate you know, the patron saint of your village 975 00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:53,880 or your town or your country or something like that. 976 00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:57,320 So it starts with eroding those things, and then it 977 00:58:57,440 --> 00:58:59,880 comes down to, you know, eroding even the very base 978 00:59:00,199 --> 00:59:02,239 kind of earthly things. Just the time of year, the 979 00:59:02,679 --> 00:59:07,559 season harvest. We have the technology to to grow, you know, 980 00:59:08,159 --> 00:59:11,480 blueberries and hot houses. You know, so I can eat, 981 00:59:11,679 --> 00:59:14,960 I can, I can have. I gave a I gave 982 00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:19,760 its TWK this fall called eat your blackberries before michelmiss 983 00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:21,960 or the devil will get them. And it was all 984 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:25,320 about this basically, this this idea and taking some Anglo 985 00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:29,639 Saxon poetry and ideas about about the calendar at harvest. 986 00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,559 Speaker 1: Have you ever been to Chaco Canyon? No any chance? 987 00:59:33,639 --> 00:59:35,280 Speaker 2: Oh you told me about it, though, so tell them 988 00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:35,639 about it. 989 00:59:35,679 --> 00:59:38,239 Speaker 1: Okay. So I lived in New Mexico for a long time. 990 00:59:39,039 --> 00:59:43,360 Love Love the High Desert Chaco Canyon, if you're if 991 00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:49,199 you're not aware, is a Native American site out in 992 00:59:49,719 --> 00:59:54,480 northwestern New Mexico, and for a long time it was 993 00:59:54,599 --> 00:59:58,760 thought to just be an abandoned city. But as archaeologists 994 00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,400 have kind of sifted through the area, they have not 995 01:00:01,639 --> 01:00:05,440 found enough evidence that it was populated. And so it's 996 01:00:05,519 --> 01:00:08,800 all of these kind of monumental buildings in a shallow canyon, 997 01:00:09,639 --> 01:00:12,920 and there's evidence of all of these roads that used 998 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:15,400 to come to it from all different directions, and so 999 01:00:15,519 --> 01:00:18,239 the current theory is that it wasn't a city, that 1000 01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:22,519 it was a school, and all of the buildings have 1001 01:00:22,679 --> 01:00:29,239 been discovered to have been oriented toward astronomical events on 1002 01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:34,199 the horizon. So say in one direction, there are these 1003 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:39,199 two masas far off on the horizon, and one of 1004 01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:43,559 the buildings will have a wall angled toward those two masas. 1005 01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,800 And when you stand there on the vernal equinox, the sun, 1006 01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:51,800 which has been slowly traveling, will now come up right 1007 01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:57,920 between those two masas. And there are coincidences, not mere coincidences, 1008 01:00:58,119 --> 01:01:00,760 but there are coincidences like that all up and down 1009 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,239 the canyon that are being discovered, and the idea was, 1010 01:01:04,719 --> 01:01:08,159 we have a calendar that hangs on the wall, and 1011 01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:11,920 they had a calendar that was living, an architectural, and 1012 01:01:12,039 --> 01:01:16,719 three D, and all of these different Native American groups 1013 01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:23,320 could send people to go and study and see when 1014 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,800 was the proper time to do things. As you're talking 1015 01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:29,599 about a proper day to celebrate. But in the hierarchy 1016 01:01:29,639 --> 01:01:32,079 of time, you have to have proper days and proper 1017 01:01:32,239 --> 01:01:36,559 seasons that are all working together, and the seasons lead 1018 01:01:36,639 --> 01:01:38,679 to the days, and the days lead to the seasons. 1019 01:01:39,519 --> 01:01:44,360 And that was just the way of being human for 1020 01:01:44,639 --> 01:01:46,800 all of history up until just recently. 1021 01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,159 Speaker 2: Every time we make a piece of technology to do 1022 01:01:49,199 --> 01:01:54,000 a certain bit of heavy lifting for us, within a generation, 1023 01:01:54,159 --> 01:01:56,639 we usually lose the ability to even do that heavy lifting. 1024 01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,159 And you know, that's just the way it is. I mean, 1025 01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:02,400 it's not it's not even just that humans are lazy. 1026 01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,440 It's it's that that, well, now, okay, great, now I've 1027 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,400 got more important things to do. Why why would I 1028 01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:09,639 spend time doing this thing that somebody else has already 1029 01:02:09,679 --> 01:02:12,159 done for me? You know, like I have gone on 1030 01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:15,599 with things. But I think that if if I were 1031 01:02:15,679 --> 01:02:18,800 to approach and I am approaching, and I have kids 1032 01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:22,880 that I'm educating, But to approach this question from a 1033 01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:26,159 classical education standpoint, like what would be the important thing 1034 01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,559 to teach the kids? I think what I've kind of 1035 01:02:29,639 --> 01:02:32,800 landed on is that we have to build a calendar 1036 01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:37,360 from scratch, and we have to learn kind of from 1037 01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:42,840 first first principles to reconstruct a calendar, which is going 1038 01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:44,519 to take multiple years because the first thing we'll have 1039 01:02:44,599 --> 01:02:47,519 to do is actually measure when the solstice happens, which 1040 01:02:47,599 --> 01:02:49,519 means we've got to measure the length of each day 1041 01:02:49,559 --> 01:02:51,199 for a while to we figure out where we live, 1042 01:02:51,239 --> 01:02:53,239 what the ratio between you know, the long stay and 1043 01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:55,159 the shortest day of the year is. And once you 1044 01:02:55,239 --> 01:02:57,679 have that ratio, which is why like when the Greeks, 1045 01:02:58,239 --> 01:03:00,719 you know, when the Greeks, when the ratio was brought 1046 01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:06,280 to the Greeks from from Babylon, basically they're like, yeah, ratios, man, 1047 01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:08,599 that's the most you know. And nowadays you're like, I 1048 01:03:08,639 --> 01:03:12,199 don't why is that even significant? But it's huge, huge, 1049 01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:15,840 important discovery. And so once you know that ratio, then 1050 01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:17,679 you can figure out the dates that the solstices and 1051 01:03:17,719 --> 01:03:20,199 the equinox, and then between that and then looking up 1052 01:03:20,199 --> 01:03:22,199 the night sky. That's how you get the months. And 1053 01:03:22,280 --> 01:03:24,360 then you realize there's a there's a lunar year, and 1054 01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:26,519 there's a solar year, and that those two things have 1055 01:03:26,599 --> 01:03:29,920 a ratio together which together gives you, you know, gives 1056 01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:33,840 you the months. But then also there are there are days. 1057 01:03:33,880 --> 01:03:36,280 There's a lunar day and a Venusian day, and the 1058 01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:38,960 ratio of those two things together is how the Babylonians 1059 01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:40,960 got the arc second, which is what we still use 1060 01:03:41,239 --> 01:03:43,679 as our most basic measurement of time is the second, 1061 01:03:44,599 --> 01:03:47,159 and so on and so forth, and and and so 1062 01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:48,719 I think that's going to be the project the next 1063 01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,239 few years at my house is, you know, let's put 1064 01:03:52,239 --> 01:03:55,000 together a sun dial, let's start make taking some measurements, 1065 01:03:55,079 --> 01:03:58,400 let's start charting, and let's let's build a calendar from scratch. 1066 01:03:58,400 --> 01:04:00,159 And the thing is, by the time you do this, 1067 01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,320 you'd also have a pretty good understanding of mathematics, certainly 1068 01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:05,599 as much as you need to kind of move and 1069 01:04:05,679 --> 01:04:10,119 operate in the world for non specialized purposes and a whole. 1070 01:04:11,559 --> 01:04:14,159 Speaker 1: And not just a knowledge of mathematics, which is true, 1071 01:04:14,199 --> 01:04:20,400 but you'd have an appreciation for math as coming out 1072 01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:23,360 of and guiding the physical world around you, and not 1073 01:04:23,559 --> 01:04:29,000 just some abstract timetables that you have to memorize. I 1074 01:04:29,039 --> 01:04:30,880 have a going theory because one of the classes I 1075 01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:35,039 teach at the classical school is Euclidean geometry, and I 1076 01:04:35,119 --> 01:04:40,639 think Euclid's his text The Elements, is actually an astronomical text. 1077 01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:42,719 Speaker 2: He starts out with geometry. 1078 01:04:43,079 --> 01:04:47,320 Speaker 1: He starts out with points making lines, and what is 1079 01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:50,800 that but a star tracing its path across the sky. 1080 01:04:51,519 --> 01:04:54,159 And he ends up with what we call the platonic 1081 01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:59,280 solids at the end, which Plato says are the building 1082 01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:03,239 blocks of all the physical world around us and the heavens. 1083 01:05:04,199 --> 01:05:06,760 Uh So, for the for ancient people, math wasn't just 1084 01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:09,639 some boring thing you had to slog through and memorize 1085 01:05:09,679 --> 01:05:13,079 how to multiply and divide fractions, but it was actually 1086 01:05:13,239 --> 01:05:16,679 seeing like you're talking about ratios and proportions. It was 1087 01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:25,000 seeing relationships that guided beauty and guided truth and kept 1088 01:05:25,079 --> 01:05:29,639 things that were the same but different. How do you 1089 01:05:29,760 --> 01:05:34,559 distinguish between two chairs that look identical? Right? And this 1090 01:05:34,719 --> 01:05:37,840 would have been a whole science for the ancient world. Yeah, 1091 01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:40,239 related to astronomy. 1092 01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:43,760 Speaker 2: So let's talk about the course real quick. For people, 1093 01:05:44,159 --> 01:05:45,800 and I feel like we just go all day, but 1094 01:05:46,199 --> 01:05:48,679 at some point the babies may want some lunch. Maybe 1095 01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:53,000 it'll be I think six weeks, which is very ambitious 1096 01:05:53,039 --> 01:05:53,519 on your part. 1097 01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:55,760 Speaker 1: That's that's just what they told me. 1098 01:05:56,199 --> 01:05:59,119 Speaker 2: Yeahs are usually five to six weeks. But yeah, so 1099 01:05:59,719 --> 01:06:01,119 I think I think you are going to start with 1100 01:06:01,159 --> 01:06:05,079 an introduction to competing cosmologies, and then in the second class, 1101 01:06:05,119 --> 01:06:07,599 we're going to do some stuff from the Hebrew tradition, 1102 01:06:08,239 --> 01:06:11,119 from Genesis to Matthew. I'm really interested to hear what 1103 01:06:11,239 --> 01:06:13,840 you mean by saying that the Lord's prayer is an 1104 01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:17,280 astronomical prayer. I really wanted to ask you that, But 1105 01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:19,960 I think we'll say that for the corpse, and then 1106 01:06:20,199 --> 01:06:23,559 you'll be looking at the Pythagorean tradition. You'll be talking 1107 01:06:23,639 --> 01:06:26,239 about practical naked eye stargazing, and then I think you 1108 01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,440 and I are going to wrap up with some thoughts 1109 01:06:29,559 --> 01:06:31,440 and a deeper discussion about some of the things that 1110 01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:34,480 we talked about here. So if you watched this video 1111 01:06:34,519 --> 01:06:36,679 and you're really frustrated because we didn't say something we 1112 01:06:36,719 --> 01:06:39,039 should have, or you disagree with something we said, come 1113 01:06:39,159 --> 01:06:40,920 take the course and chat with us in the Q 1114 01:06:41,039 --> 01:06:43,559 and A and let's get into it. So it's going 1115 01:06:43,639 --> 01:06:45,440 to be one hundred and fifty dollars for the course, 1116 01:06:45,639 --> 01:06:49,320 and that'll be on the Symbolic World Circle community, just 1117 01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:50,840 like the rest of our courses. Is there anything else 1118 01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:54,719 you want to say about the course or anything salty 1119 01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:56,639 that you want to throw out just to hook people in? 1120 01:06:57,079 --> 01:07:04,480 Speaker 1: Well year long astronomy course at the at the classical school. 1121 01:07:05,039 --> 01:07:06,679 And one thing I really want to do is take 1122 01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:11,119 that year long course and condense it. So it's it's 1123 01:07:11,199 --> 01:07:14,000 gonna be I think a good balance of very basic 1124 01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:21,840 things with UH some leaps into high symbology and UH 1125 01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:27,840 and and cosmology that will intrigue people enough to do 1126 01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:33,079 a little more research. And I love I love everything 1127 01:07:33,119 --> 01:07:34,239 that Symbolic World does. 1128 01:07:37,440 --> 01:07:39,599 Speaker 2: I could probably hear the geese and the the geese. 1129 01:07:39,440 --> 01:07:42,559 Speaker 1: Are excited about this. I love what Symbolic World does, 1130 01:07:42,639 --> 01:07:46,719 and I feel like there are different ways to impro 1131 01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:52,199 approach a symbolic worldview, and that astronomy cosmology is one 1132 01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:55,320 of the most important. And I'm hoping that groups of 1133 01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:57,599 people will listen to this and do stargazing together and 1134 01:07:57,679 --> 01:07:58,440 read books together. 1135 01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:03,320 Speaker 2: I actually thinking about future Symbolic World events One of 1136 01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:05,079 the things that I would like to do would be 1137 01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:08,760 like go out and have it event where we go 1138 01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:10,719 out with somebody who's really knowledgeable and do some naked 1139 01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,800 eye astronomy and then also maybe tell some of the 1140 01:08:13,840 --> 01:08:18,239 old stories around some of the constellations. All right, well, 1141 01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:21,640 the dogs are circling. I think it might also be 1142 01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,279 time to feed the children lunch. So the course is 1143 01:08:25,359 --> 01:08:29,399 called the Art of Imitating Heaven. There is a discount 1144 01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,520 for pre orders and for patron subscribers. As usual, all 1145 01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,920 that stuff will be on the website, so please check 1146 01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,039 it out. Thank you Josh so much for joining us. 1147 01:08:37,079 --> 01:08:40,800 Here at Symbolic World South, there's more animals than Symbolic 1148 01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,560 World North. You know. I think Jonathan has one cat 1149 01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:47,760 that he basically tolerates, you know. But here you'll get 1150 01:08:48,119 --> 01:08:50,960 swarmed by geese, you'll get slaughered on by Saint Bernard's. 1151 01:08:51,199 --> 01:08:52,359 Speaker 1: It's the peaceable kingdom here. 1152 01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:54,359 Speaker 2: It's the peaceabul Kingdom here. That's right, that's right, So 1153 01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,479 all right, before the dog eats the microphone, Thanks everybody, 1154 01:08:57,800 --> 01:08:59,560 and God bless you all. 1155 01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:03,239 Speaker 3: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to 1156 01:09:03,319 --> 01:09:05,960 the Symbolic World dot com website and see how you 1157 01:09:06,039 --> 01:09:09,159 can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers 1158 01:09:09,199 --> 01:09:12,039 with perks. There are apparel in books to purchase. So 1159 01:09:12,239 --> 01:09:14,239 go to the Symbolic World dot com and thank you 1160 01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:15,359 for your support.