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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to an airwave media podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>This week on Monster Talk, we talked with doctor Brian

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<v Speaker 2>Regal about his new book, Searching for Sasquatch, Crackpots, egg

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<v Speaker 2>Heads and Cryptozoology. It's an academic book about the history

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<v Speaker 2>of the search for Sasquatch, yet not about sasquatch. I

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<v Speaker 2>like the book and I enjoyed the interview. I hope

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<v Speaker 2>you do too. But it does talk a lot about

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<v Speaker 2>topics that monster hunters might find depressing. Is cryptozoology a pseudoscience?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it a waste of time? Does real science care

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<v Speaker 2>about monsters? Does science suppress the secret existence of mystery apes?

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<v Speaker 2>Or has it simply withdrawn from the quest, smarting from

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<v Speaker 2>hoax after hoax, but secretly hoping that someday the beast's

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<v Speaker 2>scorps will hit the lab table.

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<v Speaker 3>Tune in and find out.

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<v Speaker 2>It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before.

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<v Speaker 3>A giant, hairy creature Part eight.

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<v Speaker 4>In Luckness twenty four, a mile long bottomless lake in

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<v Speaker 4>the Highlands of Scotland.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster.

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<v Speaker 2>Monster tal Welcome to Monster Talk, the science show about monsters.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm your host Blake Smith and together with Ben Radford,

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<v Speaker 2>a Skeptical Inquirer magazine, and doctor Kieren Stoles now a

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<v Speaker 2>CSI research fellow and paranormal investigator. We examine monsters in

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<v Speaker 2>their place and science and legend. In a moment, we'll

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<v Speaker 2>hear an interview with doctor Brian Regal, but first I

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to take a moment.

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<v Speaker 3>And talk about a few things that are going on

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<v Speaker 3>with the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Scheduling and running this show is a lot of work,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's work I find immensely rewarding. We may be

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<v Speaker 2>experimenting with the format a bit in the future and

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<v Speaker 2>you may hear some new voices behind the interview mics.

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<v Speaker 3>It's my goal to keep the show fresh and to

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<v Speaker 3>work hard to get more shows out per year.

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<v Speaker 2>I've got some very interesting guests lined up and some

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<v Speaker 2>thought provoking topics. I do hope you'll enjoy the many

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<v Speaker 2>things we're going to try, and did you let us

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<v Speaker 2>know what you like and what you don't like. We

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<v Speaker 2>try to be accessible and on internet forums, Twitter, Facebook,

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<v Speaker 2>and email we try to respond to your feedback. We

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<v Speaker 2>hope you will give our Facebook fan page a try.

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<v Speaker 2>There you can find out what's happening between episodes. Plus

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<v Speaker 2>meet lots of other listeners and join them and complaining

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<v Speaker 2>about the ridiculously random schedule of Monster Talk. Also, you

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<v Speaker 2>can find out where our next public appearances will be,

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<v Speaker 2>such as the upcoming Monster Investigations workshop we'll be hosting

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<v Speaker 2>at the Amazing Meeting in July.

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<v Speaker 3>That's right.

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<v Speaker 2>If you attend TAM and come on Thursday, July fourteenth,

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<v Speaker 2>you could take a workshop on investigating monsters that features

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<v Speaker 2>the entire cast of Monster Talk. Plus I think there's

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<v Speaker 2>going to be some other notable guests and whatnot.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Come on out, though, we're going to be there. We're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about getting to shake hands with the trio who

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<v Speaker 2>brought you the awful truth about how dangerous it is

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<v Speaker 2>to be an amoruth slug. Where else can you get

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<v Speaker 2>content like that? Well, normally I would just say Monster Talk,

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<v Speaker 2>but now apparently also TAM.

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<v Speaker 3>So I hope to see you there. Now on with

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<v Speaker 3>the show.

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<v Speaker 5>Morebstrtle All right, you want to talk about Brian Reegle's new.

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<v Speaker 2>Book, Yeah, so searching for Sasquatch Crack, Yeah, Eggheads and Cryptozoology.

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<v Speaker 2>So you know a lot of these books from academic

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<v Speaker 2>presses are expensive.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, tell me about that, mister, I'm been publishing.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, thank you for asking, as someone who has published

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<v Speaker 5>with a couple academic presses, most recently, of course, the

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<v Speaker 5>University of New Mexico Press, which published my book Tracking Chubacabra,

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<v Speaker 5>which is actually one of its best selling titles for this,

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<v Speaker 5>for this, for this the season, which I'm pleased about.

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<v Speaker 3>Cool.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes, well, part of what happens, of course, it's the

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<v Speaker 5>it's the economics of book published titles that come from

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<v Speaker 5>academic presses such as the one we're going to discuss today.

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<v Speaker 5>I think I think it's the the palm Grave Studies

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<v Speaker 5>in the History of Science and Technology is the name of.

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<v Speaker 3>The press, and Paul Grave McMillan, Yeah.

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<v Speaker 5>Paul Grave McMillan. You know what what happens is there's

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<v Speaker 5>a bit of a trade off there because the academic

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<v Speaker 5>presses tend to be of course much more scholarly and

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<v Speaker 5>academic h and therefore they're much more reliable, But they

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<v Speaker 5>don't necessarily have the commercial appeal or the push behind it.

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<v Speaker 5>You know that you would see, uh, with the with

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<v Speaker 5>the major you know, commercial marketers such as you know

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<v Speaker 5>Avon or or you know HarperCollins, or what have you.

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<v Speaker 5>So because they don't expect to sold as many books,

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<v Speaker 5>they have to price them accordingly. So they sort of

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<v Speaker 5>they do the math on it, and they figure, well,

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<v Speaker 5>we can sell x many books, you know, at this price,

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<v Speaker 5>but if we don't think we're going to sell them

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<v Speaker 5>any books, and we need to recoup our expenses by

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<v Speaker 5>by jacking up well I won't say jacking up, but

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<v Speaker 5>by by increasing the price on the titles cover the.

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<v Speaker 3>Price the print run, is what you're saying.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's some minimum price required for making a run

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<v Speaker 2>of these hardcover books, and they have to guess on

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<v Speaker 2>the expectations when they have to, they have to make

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<v Speaker 2>a guess of how many they might sell, and then

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<v Speaker 2>price some according to how much it will cause to

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<v Speaker 2>cover that on the print run.

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<v Speaker 5>That's exactly right. And you know, especially when you're talking

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<v Speaker 5>about something with a title like you know, searching for

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<v Speaker 5>sasquatch Uh. It's a great title, and it's you know,

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<v Speaker 5>it's a fine book, but you know, the book as

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<v Speaker 5>it's presented, and I'm looking at it right now, it's

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<v Speaker 5>an attractive book, but it's not necessarily, you know, going

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<v Speaker 5>to be a New York Times bestseller, no matter what

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<v Speaker 5>you do with it. So that's that's sort of tough.

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<v Speaker 2>It's funny because I mean, looking at it is a

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<v Speaker 2>fantastic book. Having read it, it's it's very academic in

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<v Speaker 2>the tone of the book is very academic. It's got references,

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<v Speaker 2>and the references aren't too Monster hunting books. They're too

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<v Speaker 2>actually published articles and other.

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<v Speaker 5>Or worse, he had The references aren't to their friends blog, right, Hey, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't think that's hurts your book at all to be

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<v Speaker 2>referencing my blog.

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<v Speaker 5>So I'm just saying, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So the entry the entry price was that it was

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<v Speaker 2>it eighty five I think.

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<v Speaker 5>I think at one hundred and fifteen. Wasn't it.

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<v Speaker 3>Three thousand dollars?

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<v Speaker 5>It was fairly expensive.

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<v Speaker 3>I'll check it right quick.

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<v Speaker 2>We'll get it right Amazon, Brian Riegel. Amazon's Hey, it's

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<v Speaker 2>eighty five dollars. It's on sale for sixty eight at Amazon.

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<v Speaker 5>There you go.

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<v Speaker 3>I would like to read this book on a kindle.

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<v Speaker 3>I actually, you know I have to say this is

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<v Speaker 3>and I know.

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<v Speaker 2>Your book just came out on a candle as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Now all your books or your two most recent books

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<v Speaker 2>are both available in Kendle.

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<v Speaker 5>Now, yes, my two most recent ones.

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<v Speaker 2>So love reading academic books on the candle because you

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<v Speaker 2>can bookmark them and put notes in, share your notes

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<v Speaker 2>with other people.

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<v Speaker 3>It's fantastic, so cool, very fun.

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<v Speaker 5>I have to I have to use the old school

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<v Speaker 5>method of a mechanical pencil point zero five and writing

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<v Speaker 5>in the margins.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and that's okay too, But then if you want

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<v Speaker 2>to share them, you have to go photocopy or notes

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<v Speaker 2>or give your book away. But I was gonna say

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<v Speaker 2>Searching for Sasquatch also very suitable for kindle, So hopefully

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<v Speaker 2>he'll get that out in that no pictures unlike your

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<v Speaker 2>two books, which both have lots and lots of photos,

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<v Speaker 2>but I think they look great on the candle. But

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<v Speaker 2>his book has no photos whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 5>So right, and in fact, that's kind of a I

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<v Speaker 5>did notice that, and I was somewhat disappointed. I don't

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<v Speaker 5>know whether that was a publisher decision or he just

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<v Speaker 5>couldn't come up with anything for it, But I mean

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<v Speaker 5>there's I don't know, it'd be it'd be interesting to

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<v Speaker 5>find out why there were no pictures in it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we could ask that, say, what no pictures?

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<v Speaker 5>I want pictures?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, I guess it's kind of in keeping with Bigfoot, right.

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<v Speaker 5>Right, that's that's good. That's good.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, zing moretal.

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<v Speaker 2>Before we get started, I want to say thanks for

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<v Speaker 2>coming back and joining us again.

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<v Speaker 6>No problem, my pleasure.

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<v Speaker 2>All right. I'll do an intro here, and as you

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<v Speaker 2>may recall, the show is recorded and we do edit it,

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<v Speaker 2>so if you screw something up, we can you know,

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<v Speaker 2>redo it or whatever.

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<v Speaker 6>So okay, I'll try to use any bad language.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well then we're we can beep that out.

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<v Speaker 5>No, no, that's fine, Like it's good.

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<v Speaker 3>For the ratings.

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<v Speaker 2>If you want to do a little nudity, we that's

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<v Speaker 2>okay to uh no, you don't want that.

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<v Speaker 3>It's not what I want, Brian, it's what the listeners want.

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<v Speaker 5>But it's what the people want.

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<v Speaker 6>Whatever, whatever the market demands, that's what we'll give them.

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<v Speaker 5>A right good.

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<v Speaker 2>Brian Regal is an assistant professor for the History of Science, Technology,

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<v Speaker 2>and Medicine in the Department of History at Keing University.

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<v Speaker 2>He's a return guest, having joined us before on our

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<v Speaker 2>very first Skeptic sponsored episode to discuss werewolves and Charles Darwin,

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<v Speaker 2>and now he's back as the author of the new

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<v Speaker 2>book Searching for sasquatch, Crackpots.

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<v Speaker 3>Eggheads and crypto Zoology.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, So, Brian, your book title sounds somewhat confrontational,

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<v Speaker 2>which seems at odds with the academic, historical tone of

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<v Speaker 2>the text inside it.

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<v Speaker 3>So what does that title mean to you?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh?

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well that this is. My original plan for the

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<v Speaker 6>title was called Crackpots and Eggheads colon amateur's Professionals and Cryptozoology,

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<v Speaker 6>but the good people at Paul Gray McMillan thought that

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<v Speaker 6>this would be a better title, so so I went

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<v Speaker 6>with that. But yeah, it's it is. It is a

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<v Speaker 6>little on the country virtual side, and I've already been

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<v Speaker 6>I was told before the book went into production that

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<v Speaker 6>people would be upset with this, but I forged ahead

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<v Speaker 6>anyway because I thought it was important and I don't

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<v Speaker 6>use those terms in a negative, confrontational way. They're actually

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<v Speaker 6>sort of I use it in an endearing kind of way.

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<v Speaker 6>Crackpots of course being amateur naturalists monster enthusiasts, and the

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<v Speaker 6>eggheads being a professional scientists. I actually got the terms

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<v Speaker 6>from Renny Dehinden and Ivan Sanderson, so I didn't actually

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<v Speaker 6>make them up. When I was doing the research for

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<v Speaker 6>this book, which took me, this is the end of

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<v Speaker 6>a five year research project. When I was working on this.

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<v Speaker 6>When I began working on it, and I was reading

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<v Speaker 6>all these original texts and letters and diaries and things,

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<v Speaker 6>and I came across these terms and I thought it

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<v Speaker 6>was jackpot. There's my title right there, Crackpots and Ahead.

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<v Speaker 6>So that's why I went.

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<v Speaker 1>And so, Brian, how is this book different from a

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<v Speaker 1>book about the subject of cryptozoology in general, Well.

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<v Speaker 6>This is really a history. I think it's the it's

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<v Speaker 6>the first time or if I may for a home

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<v Speaker 6>and think the best history of cryptozoology, not cryptozoology broadly,

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<v Speaker 6>but mostly the part of cryptosology that deals with manlike monsters,

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<v Speaker 6>what I like to call anomalous primates. And what I

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<v Speaker 6>did was, I'm really not I say this in the introduction,

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<v Speaker 6>I'm really not interested. This book is not about proving

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<v Speaker 6>whether Bigfoot does or doesn't exist. It's not a debunking book.

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<v Speaker 6>But it's not a sort of a hay geography either.

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<v Speaker 6>I wanted to do a scholarly analysis of what I

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<v Speaker 6>thought was a really interesting field and see if I

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<v Speaker 6>could trace where this comes from, how does it begin?

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<v Speaker 6>And at the heart of it is the crackpots today kids.

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<v Speaker 6>Concept is the relationship between amateur naturalists and professional scientists

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<v Speaker 6>and how they have interacted and sometimes come to blows,

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<v Speaker 6>sometimes work together in order to create a new field,

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<v Speaker 6>or at least attempt to create a new field of

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<v Speaker 6>scientific study.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, Bran, I was going to say, having read your book,

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<v Speaker 5>it was really cool for me to to see uh,

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<v Speaker 5>sort of broader illustrations of many of the people that

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<v Speaker 5>I had I had read about, you know, everybody from

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<v Speaker 5>Krantz to de Hindon to Tom Slick and all that.

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<v Speaker 5>So that was it was I thought one of the

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<v Speaker 5>things that your book did really well was sort of

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<v Speaker 5>flesh out these these otherwise sort of dry names in

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<v Speaker 5>the history of crypt zoology. Right, So in in your

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<v Speaker 5>in your book you talk about a lot of leaders

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<v Speaker 5>of the field. Which of those really stood out to

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<v Speaker 5>you as being the most interesting when you were researching

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<v Speaker 5>the book?

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<v Speaker 6>Well, that's uh, that's part of the most interesting aspect

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<v Speaker 6>of this. The book focuses on Growers, and that's partly

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<v Speaker 6>because I think he's an important figure in the story

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<v Speaker 6>of the growth of cryptozoology, but also quite frankly, for

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<v Speaker 6>the simple material fact that so much of his material.

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<v Speaker 6>His letters and diaries and correspondence are available. The Krantz

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<v Speaker 6>papers are at the Smithsonian at the National Anthropological Archive.

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<v Speaker 6>And when I'm a professional historian, and when I do

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<v Speaker 6>start a project on someone or some topic, the first

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<v Speaker 6>thing I ask is where are the letters, Where are

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<v Speaker 6>the correspondents, Where are those inside discussions? Where are the notebooks?

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<v Speaker 6>Where are the copies where people scrolled sort of wacky marginalia.

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<v Speaker 6>And that's what I look for. And well, a few

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<v Speaker 6>people had tried to do this on a limited basis before,

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<v Speaker 6>no one had ever really done or attempted to do

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<v Speaker 6>a major survey of these correspondences. And so that's how Krantz.

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<v Speaker 6>That's part of the reason why cran sort of comes

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<v Speaker 6>to the to the foe. But the most disappointing for me,

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<v Speaker 6>the most disappointing part of this project was ready to Hindon,

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<v Speaker 6>who is an incredibly interesting character. Uh, Unfortunately his papers

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<v Speaker 6>are not as available as Krantz were. What I my

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<v Speaker 6>original idea was to run to run a parallel biography

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<v Speaker 6>krant and to Hindon. But as I said, the Hinden

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<v Speaker 6>papers are out there, but they are in collections, and

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<v Speaker 6>they're in places which I tried to get access to

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<v Speaker 6>but was on was unable to And so he there

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<v Speaker 6>is a good bit of material on him available through

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<v Speaker 6>other people's collections. Uh. And so I was able to

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<v Speaker 6>flesh out something of his, of him as a person,

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<v Speaker 6>but not as much as I would.

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<v Speaker 5>Like to have. And I think you said that that

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<v Speaker 5>most of Krantz's papers are at the Smithsonian, right right,

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<v Speaker 5>If I'm not mistaken. Krantz himself is is it the Smithsonian?

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<v Speaker 6>I think he left his body to h to this owning,

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<v Speaker 6>along with his dog Clyde. Uh. And there he's on display,

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<v Speaker 6>his his he wanted his he wanted his skeleton articulated

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<v Speaker 6>along with the dog and put on display mimicking photograph

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<v Speaker 6>of him and his dog. And that's what happened that.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, that was Yeah, that was a last time I

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<v Speaker 5>was in Rushing d C. I was there and I

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<v Speaker 5>was just looking at it, and I was like, grow

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<v Speaker 5>over Krantz. What if I heard the name of Like

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<v Speaker 5>is that him?

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<v Speaker 6>And it was?

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<v Speaker 5>I was sitting there looking at it, Yeah, and it was.

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<v Speaker 5>And then it was interesting because I think I was

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<v Speaker 5>the only person in the room. There were probably a

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<v Speaker 5>couple dozen people there who who knew you know about

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<v Speaker 5>his his his connection to Bigfoot, because it was actually

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<v Speaker 5>not mentioned on the display. And uh, well, it's.

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<v Speaker 6>An interesting mounting of of a human and a dog

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<v Speaker 6>skeleton together. That's really what's most interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he had bad teeth, by the way, I

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<v Speaker 2>just saw that actually covered on an online magazine. So

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<v Speaker 2>we'll put a link to that in the show notes

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<v Speaker 2>and you can actually see the photo that is based

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<v Speaker 2>on and the actual display and a really nice article

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<v Speaker 2>explaining how it came to be that Grover Krantz was right.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, I'm not sure if the dog is actually his

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<v Speaker 6>first dog, Clyde. It might be. I've seen some conflicting

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<v Speaker 6>descriptions where it said it was Clyde, and I saw

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<v Speaker 6>some others where he said no, it was a later dog.

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<v Speaker 6>But it's an Irish wolfhound. And the dog Clyde was

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<v Speaker 6>probably his best friend in his whole life. It's a

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<v Speaker 6>really interesting relationship. And in the book I argue somewhat

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<v Speaker 6>that Clyde dies around the time that Krantz really sort

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<v Speaker 6>of becomes immersed in Bigfoot studies, almost to the point

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<v Speaker 6>where I think that, you know, there was something where

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<v Speaker 6>he was so attached to this dog and had lost it.

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<v Speaker 6>Now he's going to turn those feelings onto this, this

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<v Speaker 6>creature in the woods.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So the coverage of Krantz in the books really interesting,

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<v Speaker 2>and at one point you quote him as saying, nobody

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<v Speaker 2>outclasses me, at least not.

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<v Speaker 3>Since Leonardo da Vinci. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it possible that egoism could have put blinders on

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<v Speaker 2>him when it came to examining disconfirmatory evidence to his theories.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, what's interesting about him. One of the things which

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<v Speaker 6>is interesting about him is that he early on, by

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<v Speaker 6>the mid seventies, I think he has become convinced that

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<v Speaker 6>Bigfoot's real, and he thinks that it's real because of

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<v Speaker 6>evidence which to his mind. He's a trained paleoanthropologist. I mean,

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<v Speaker 6>he goes to he goes to UKEL. Berkeley, which is,

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<v Speaker 6>you know, a center and still is a center, a

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<v Speaker 6>major center of anthropological paleoanthropological research. So he is schooled

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<v Speaker 6>in a in a powerful academic ty edition. He's not

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<v Speaker 6>an amateur by any sense of the stressing the imagination.

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<v Speaker 6>He's a professional scientist, and to his mind, he sees

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<v Speaker 6>evidence which clinches it for him, particularly the Bosberg prints

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<v Speaker 6>to cripple footprints, and then the dermal ridges and then

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<v Speaker 6>some other things as well. And once he's made that decision,

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<v Speaker 6>you know, he just moves forward and he really doesn't

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<v Speaker 6>take much into consideration. I mean, he doesn't believe every

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<v Speaker 6>single thing he sees. He understands that there's a lot

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<v Speaker 6>of hoaxing out there and a lot of misidentification, but

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<v Speaker 6>he thinks there is enough evidence that proves these creatures

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<v Speaker 6>are real. And he never really looks back.

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<v Speaker 1>And so was he ever really challenged by his colleagues.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, not really, and that's partly because most of his

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<v Speaker 6>colleagues don't believe in anything he's doing. He's mostly dismissed

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<v Speaker 6>by the mainstream.

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<v Speaker 1>They were being indulgent of him to some extent.

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<v Speaker 6>Or world up to some of the people who worked

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<v Speaker 6>in the department at Washington State University, the anthropology department

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<v Speaker 6>had said essentially that, well, you know, Grover's a really

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<v Speaker 6>good guy and he's a smart guy in all, but

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<v Speaker 6>we just sort of, as you said, we just sort

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<v Speaker 6>of indulge him on this and we don't really we

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<v Speaker 6>don't really believe this is even there. But he does

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<v Speaker 6>other good works, so we're willing to overlook the sasquatch stuff,

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<v Speaker 6>and he never receives any sort of grants or research

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<v Speaker 6>money for the sasquatch work. He pays for all of

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<v Speaker 6>it out of his own pocket. And there are times

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<v Speaker 6>where he doesn't get promoted right away. I mean, he

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<v Speaker 6>eventually makes full professor, but that's after twenty years. That's

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<v Speaker 6>a long time to wait to become a full professor.

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<v Speaker 6>And part of the reason that he did finally right

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<v Speaker 6>before he retired. Part of the reason why he did

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<v Speaker 6>get promoted was that a young scientist named John Bodley,

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<v Speaker 6>who started after him a couple of years after him.

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<v Speaker 6>They had become friends, and Bodley eventually rose to the rank,

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<v Speaker 6>became chair of the department, and he really pushed in

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<v Speaker 6>the mid nineties to get Krantz promoted and managed to

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<v Speaker 6>get the squeak by and so he did get promoted,

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<v Speaker 6>But had Bodily not put in that effort, Krantz would

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<v Speaker 6>have finished out his days as an associate, not a

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<v Speaker 6>full professor.

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<v Speaker 5>Well, brig, I'm just realizing that many of these names

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<v Speaker 5>are familiar to the four of us, but maybe not

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<v Speaker 5>necessarily to our listeners. So I'm wondering if you could

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<v Speaker 5>if you could sort of sketch out or paint a

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<v Speaker 5>picture of Grover Krantz and t. Hindon and maybe Sanderson,

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<v Speaker 5>just you know, in a couple of paragraphs, just for

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<v Speaker 5>people who aren't familiar with them.

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<v Speaker 6>Krantz again, it was a trained piler methropologist PhD. In

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<v Speaker 6>human evolution studies who joined the faculty of Washington State

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<v Speaker 6>University in nineteen sixty eight, and he was primarily doing

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<v Speaker 6>work on on Homo erectus fossils. And he had been

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<v Speaker 6>intrigued by the idea of bigfoot and sasquatch for some

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<v Speaker 6>years and had kind of informally been keeping up on

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<v Speaker 6>it and collecting information. And then in nineteen sixty nine,

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<v Speaker 6>there is a sighting in a tiny little town called Bossburg, Washington,

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<v Speaker 6>up near the Canadian border. And since the campus or

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<v Speaker 6>the University of Washington University is at Pullman, Washington, not

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<v Speaker 6>very far from there, over the Thanksgiving holiday, jumps in

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<v Speaker 6>his car and he drives up there to investigate, and

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<v Speaker 6>he sees what comes to be known as the Cripplefoot tracks.

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<v Speaker 6>And these were bigfoot tracks that had some strange kind

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<v Speaker 6>of anatomical anomalies to them, and it looked to him

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<v Speaker 6>like one of the creature's feet had been broken at

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<v Speaker 6>one point and healed badly, And he had been He

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<v Speaker 6>had done a lot of work on human locomotion and

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<v Speaker 6>also human locomotion and foot structure foot morphology, and when

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<v Speaker 6>he looked at these cripple foot tracks in his mind,

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<v Speaker 6>he said, no one could possibly hoax this. No one

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<v Speaker 6>would know to hoax this in the way that it

401
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:16.359
<v Speaker 6>was hoaxed that he or the way that it looked,

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<v Speaker 6>And so he said, the only other explanation is that

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<v Speaker 6>it's real. And he becomes a convinced believer that these

404
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<v Speaker 6>creatures are real, and he spends the rest of his

405
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<v Speaker 6>thirty plus year career trying unsuccessfully to prove their real

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<v Speaker 6>and to convince his colleagues that they're real. His primary

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<v Speaker 6>nemesis was a Swiss Canadian named Ready de Hinden, who

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<v Speaker 6>had been born in Switzerland, had been deposited in an

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<v Speaker 6>orphanage for a while, managed to get out of the orphanage,

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<v Speaker 6>saw a series of work farms as a kid. When

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<v Speaker 6>he came of age, he went off on his own,

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<v Speaker 6>wandered around post war Europe for a little while, and

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<v Speaker 6>eventually immigrated to Canada winds up in British Columbia, and

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<v Speaker 6>he has very little formal education, yet he's a very

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<v Speaker 6>naturally intelligent guy. And he sees reports of sasquatch which

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<v Speaker 6>are just starting to sort of get some media play

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<v Speaker 6>in the nineteen fifties, and he becomes fascinated by it

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<v Speaker 6>and he determines to go find out what this thing is.

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<v Speaker 6>And where Krantz has a lot of formal academic schooling,

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00:23:26.480 --> 00:23:29.880
<v Speaker 6>the Hinden has none, and so these two guys sort

421
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:34.279
<v Speaker 6>of go off on a parallel journey. In the book,

422
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:37.880
<v Speaker 6>I refer to Hindon as the anti krants You know,

423
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:41.640
<v Speaker 6>he has no actual scientific training, but he's deeply passionate

424
00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:44.960
<v Speaker 6>about this, and they form this kind of love hate

425
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:47.759
<v Speaker 6>relationship that takes them through the rest of their lives.

426
00:23:48.400 --> 00:23:52.359
<v Speaker 6>The hind Krant dies I think a year after the

427
00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:55.960
<v Speaker 6>Hinden does, and so that sort of makes up the

428
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:58.920
<v Speaker 6>base of the book. And then there's other characters like

429
00:23:59.079 --> 00:24:05.279
<v Speaker 6>Ian Sanderson, who is a Scots naturalist, Cambridge trained. He

430
00:24:05.319 --> 00:24:09.200
<v Speaker 6>actually has an undergraduate degree in biology, and he too

431
00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:13.000
<v Speaker 6>becomes fascinated by these things, and he comes to America

432
00:24:14.279 --> 00:24:18.680
<v Speaker 6>and decides to track down track down these creatures. He's

433
00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:22.559
<v Speaker 6>a he's a professional science journalist. He does a lot

434
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:27.200
<v Speaker 6>of writing. Sanderson is never an academic, uh, which is

435
00:24:27.240 --> 00:24:30.839
<v Speaker 6>part of his resentment of the academic world, because he

436
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:33.279
<v Speaker 6>thought he we should have been an academic. But he

437
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:37.400
<v Speaker 6>spends his life hustling by writing articles and things, a

438
00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:40.160
<v Speaker 6>lot of famous articles that are well known in the field.

439
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:45.200
<v Speaker 6>And he too, will you know, spend his life trying

440
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:46.279
<v Speaker 6>to prove these creatures are real.

441
00:24:47.480 --> 00:24:49.319
<v Speaker 2>In particular, I thought you did a good job of

442
00:24:49.359 --> 00:24:54.440
<v Speaker 2>painting Ivan Sanderson as kind of a tragic figure who

443
00:24:54.519 --> 00:24:59.440
<v Speaker 2>gets on this sort of quest to find something that

444
00:24:59.480 --> 00:25:01.240
<v Speaker 2>he may never be able to prove. Did you get

445
00:25:01.279 --> 00:25:03.240
<v Speaker 2>the impression at the end of his life he still

446
00:25:03.359 --> 00:25:07.279
<v Speaker 2>believed sincerely that these mystery apes were still out there. Oh.

447
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:08.720
<v Speaker 6>I think they all did. I don't think any of

448
00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:13.079
<v Speaker 6>them ever really lost a belief that these creatures were real.

449
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:16.160
<v Speaker 2>I wanted so bad for Ivan Sanderson to have kind

450
00:25:16.200 --> 00:25:20.119
<v Speaker 2>of like a paranormal Wild Kingdom, you know, not paranormal,

451
00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:22.680
<v Speaker 2>but you know, a cryptozoological Wild Kingdom show.

452
00:25:22.799 --> 00:25:24.119
<v Speaker 3>But he seems.

453
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:24.920
<v Speaker 6>Sure he wanted to.

454
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:29.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he just comes across as that sort of fifties

455
00:25:29.799 --> 00:25:33.039
<v Speaker 2>explorer with the British accent, putting on the khakis and

456
00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:34.480
<v Speaker 2>the pith helmet, and now he goes.

457
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:39.720
<v Speaker 6>Sure, yeah, right, Well, all these guys were real characters,

458
00:25:40.759 --> 00:25:45.319
<v Speaker 6>and not in a kind of artificial way, but genuine characters,

459
00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:47.640
<v Speaker 6>genuinely unusual, interesting people.

460
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:51.000
<v Speaker 1>So, Brian, one of the most commonly heard claims about

461
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:55.519
<v Speaker 1>cryptozoology is that scientists ignore the arguments and evidencing, dismisspeak

462
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:58.440
<v Speaker 1>foot out of hands. Your book seems to debunk that myth,

463
00:25:58.440 --> 00:26:00.920
<v Speaker 1>as you provide many examples of somecientists who did take

464
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:03.480
<v Speaker 1>big foot seriously. Could you talk about that a bit

465
00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:04.079
<v Speaker 1>for us?

466
00:26:04.319 --> 00:26:08.680
<v Speaker 6>Oh? Sure. One of the other major threads in my

467
00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:12.599
<v Speaker 6>book is within history, we have this notion of the

468
00:26:12.640 --> 00:26:16.559
<v Speaker 6>heroic narrative, or the grand narrative, or the meta narrative,

469
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:22.480
<v Speaker 6>these kind of big ideas, big statements that cover broad fields,

470
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:25.960
<v Speaker 6>and so you know, if you want to know about

471
00:26:26.000 --> 00:26:28.839
<v Speaker 6>something that's sort of a conventionalism says this field is

472
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:35.079
<v Speaker 6>about that. And the heroic narrative of monster hunting, certainly

473
00:26:35.079 --> 00:26:41.839
<v Speaker 6>in the twentieth century, was that these amateur naturalists, they're

474
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.200
<v Speaker 6>the ones who are really passionate about this, and they

475
00:26:44.200 --> 00:26:47.400
<v Speaker 6>go around and they do lots of research, and they

476
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:50.319
<v Speaker 6>go out into the field and they try to they

477
00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:54.200
<v Speaker 6>fight against the odds to bring the knowledge of these

478
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:58.039
<v Speaker 6>creatures to the public. And you have the scientists who

479
00:26:58.119 --> 00:27:00.559
<v Speaker 6>sort of reject all of this out of hand and

480
00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:04.599
<v Speaker 6>and say, no, this is silly, and and uh, you know,

481
00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:07.440
<v Speaker 6>these these these monster hunters are just sort of crackpots

482
00:27:07.680 --> 00:27:09.480
<v Speaker 6>who don't know what they're doing. They're just running around

483
00:27:09.480 --> 00:27:13.519
<v Speaker 6>the woods, and so we dismiss whatever they say. And

484
00:27:13.759 --> 00:27:18.119
<v Speaker 6>the reality here is that it's not really quite that easy.

485
00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:23.200
<v Speaker 6>There were scientists and still are even today who believe

486
00:27:23.240 --> 00:27:27.200
<v Speaker 6>these creatures are real and work to try to uh

487
00:27:27.640 --> 00:27:30.599
<v Speaker 6>prove that. They worked as hard to prove these things

488
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.240
<v Speaker 6>real and believed as much as any of the amateurs did.

489
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:36.559
<v Speaker 6>And so this notion that you can draw this nice

490
00:27:36.599 --> 00:27:40.039
<v Speaker 6>straight line with you know, believers and amateurs on one

491
00:27:40.079 --> 00:27:43.400
<v Speaker 6>side and non believers and professional scientists and the mainstream

492
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:45.079
<v Speaker 6>on the other just doesn't really hold up.

493
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:49.880
<v Speaker 5>In your book, you talk a fair amount about the

494
00:27:50.440 --> 00:27:53.599
<v Speaker 5>Russian and the Soviet cryptozoologists who are also interested in

495
00:27:53.599 --> 00:27:56.640
<v Speaker 5>in in the yet and all that, was there any

496
00:27:56.680 --> 00:27:59.960
<v Speaker 5>scientific collaboration going on among the Cold War rivals, or

497
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:03.000
<v Speaker 5>what was the status on that, yeah, well there was.

498
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:09.400
<v Speaker 6>I mean, there's a whole tradition of monster hunting in Russia,

499
00:28:09.880 --> 00:28:15.039
<v Speaker 6>the Almasti and the Almas that are very big foot

500
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:19.799
<v Speaker 6>like creatures, and a similar kind of pattern developed over

501
00:28:19.839 --> 00:28:24.440
<v Speaker 6>there where you have professional scientists and amateurs interested in

502
00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:30.680
<v Speaker 6>this and tracking that information and analyzing data. One of

503
00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:34.480
<v Speaker 6>the big differences between the Americans or the western is

504
00:28:34.519 --> 00:28:38.119
<v Speaker 6>not just Americans, but the Westerners and the Russians is

505
00:28:38.119 --> 00:28:41.240
<v Speaker 6>that the Russians actually received some state support early on.

506
00:28:41.799 --> 00:28:44.880
<v Speaker 6>There was actually a Snowman Commission in Russia in the

507
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:50.200
<v Speaker 6>nineteen fifties because there had been some sightings by several

508
00:28:50.599 --> 00:28:54.599
<v Speaker 6>respective scientists in Soviet Russia, and so as a way

509
00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:58.759
<v Speaker 6>of getting at the bottom of this, the Russian government

510
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:04.240
<v Speaker 6>actually put together Snowman commission to investigate the phenomena and

511
00:29:05.680 --> 00:29:10.680
<v Speaker 6>to support some expeditions into the Palmeer Mountains. It doesn't

512
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:13.440
<v Speaker 6>last that long because after after one or two expeditions

513
00:29:13.440 --> 00:29:17.680
<v Speaker 6>and they don't find anything, the Russian government essentially turns

514
00:29:17.720 --> 00:29:19.599
<v Speaker 6>their backgund says, well, that was a big waste of time,

515
00:29:20.039 --> 00:29:24.000
<v Speaker 6>and the Snowman Commission is decommissioned, and that sort of

516
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:28.359
<v Speaker 6>leaves the the monster enthusiasts on their own to go

517
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:31.559
<v Speaker 6>to their own devices, and that never really happens here.

518
00:29:32.000 --> 00:29:36.440
<v Speaker 6>There's really never any official state or academic support for

519
00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:38.359
<v Speaker 6>a monster hunting in America.

520
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:42.119
<v Speaker 2>And we didn't need it. We had millionaire Tom Slick, right, Yeah, Well,

521
00:29:42.119 --> 00:29:42.519
<v Speaker 2>there was.

522
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:49.359
<v Speaker 6>A benefactor involved the the the enigmatic Texas oil millionaire

523
00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:54.960
<v Speaker 6>Tom Slick, who actually supports puts up the money for

524
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:59.279
<v Speaker 6>a number of expeditions in Asia define the Yetti and

525
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:03.440
<v Speaker 6>here in the States to find Bigfoot. It would have

526
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:07.400
<v Speaker 6>gone on supporting this head died tragically young in a

527
00:30:07.400 --> 00:30:09.039
<v Speaker 6>plane crash.

528
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:12.319
<v Speaker 5>Just so basically the claim that again we sort of

529
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:14.440
<v Speaker 5>touched on this before, but the claim that I sometimes

530
00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:18.200
<v Speaker 5>here that the reason we haven't found bad evidence for Bigfoot,

531
00:30:18.279 --> 00:30:20.519
<v Speaker 5>for example, is because there's no money behind it or

532
00:30:20.559 --> 00:30:25.000
<v Speaker 5>there's no real effort. It doesn't sound like that's quite true.

533
00:30:26.000 --> 00:30:29.680
<v Speaker 6>Well, there has been money behind it, and now today

534
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:32.519
<v Speaker 6>in the early twenty fourth century, you have a number

535
00:30:32.559 --> 00:30:37.079
<v Speaker 6>of television shows and TV series that pump money into

536
00:30:37.079 --> 00:30:40.119
<v Speaker 6>the search with the same results.

537
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:42.960
<v Speaker 2>So there's always this sort of romanticized view of the

538
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:46.839
<v Speaker 2>search for Yetti. You've got skilled mountain climbers coming back

539
00:30:46.839 --> 00:30:47.559
<v Speaker 2>with stories.

540
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:50.720
<v Speaker 3>You've got this millionaire. There's a story.

541
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:54.160
<v Speaker 2>About Jimmy Stewart being involved in stealing the parts. Your

542
00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:56.480
<v Speaker 2>book was the first to ever inform me about the

543
00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:58.680
<v Speaker 2>involvement of the CIA and the search for the yetty,

544
00:30:58.839 --> 00:30:59.799
<v Speaker 2>can you talk about.

545
00:30:59.599 --> 00:31:00.000
<v Speaker 5>That little bit?

546
00:31:00.559 --> 00:31:02.559
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well, I'm not actually the first person to talk

547
00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:04.920
<v Speaker 6>about this. Lauren Coleman has actually done some work.

548
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:07.599
<v Speaker 3>Sorry Lauren, but there but.

549
00:31:07.599 --> 00:31:13.640
<v Speaker 6>There is some really interesting, intriguing uh intelligence connections here.

550
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:18.000
<v Speaker 6>A number of the uh, what we might call the

551
00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:24.480
<v Speaker 6>Golden Age monster hunters, Ivan Sanderson, UH, Georgie Agayino, and

552
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:33.160
<v Speaker 6>Carlon Kuhn. UH. They all had intelligence backgrounds. Againo was

553
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:35.839
<v Speaker 6>an OSS agent in the Far East.

554
00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:36.960
<v Speaker 2>UH.

555
00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:42.160
<v Speaker 6>Cohn was a OSS agent in North Africa. And supposedly

556
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:46.839
<v Speaker 6>Ivan Sanderson had British intelligence British naval intelligence connections. Uh.

557
00:31:46.920 --> 00:31:53.319
<v Speaker 6>There had been accusations of that Peter Byrne, the another

558
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:57.119
<v Speaker 6>one of the grand old men of of monster hunting,

559
00:31:57.160 --> 00:32:02.279
<v Speaker 6>that he had intelligence connections. It's been alleged that Tom

560
00:32:02.319 --> 00:32:09.119
<v Speaker 6>Slick had CIA connections and that they were contacted and

561
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:13.480
<v Speaker 6>that when they especially in the Asia phase. Because you

562
00:32:13.480 --> 00:32:15.920
<v Speaker 6>have to remember the sort of geopolitical situation that's going

563
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.039
<v Speaker 6>on in the nineteen fifties. Ti Bet and Nepal are

564
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.279
<v Speaker 6>right there, up next to China, wedged in between India,

565
00:32:22.279 --> 00:32:25.319
<v Speaker 6>which was still part of the British Empire, and you know,

566
00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:28.559
<v Speaker 6>the Chinese Revolution had taken place, and they had invaded Tibet,

567
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:32.119
<v Speaker 6>and things were, you know, were really hopping over there.

568
00:32:32.599 --> 00:32:35.880
<v Speaker 6>And in the middle of it, there's a monster, and

569
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:40.200
<v Speaker 6>so this is an excuse for Westerners to come looking

570
00:32:40.240 --> 00:32:42.680
<v Speaker 6>for this thing. And the Chinese, for example, and the Russians,

571
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:46.240
<v Speaker 6>we're both convinced that all these guys were spies. The

572
00:32:46.279 --> 00:32:48.440
<v Speaker 6>guys on the western side were convinced that all the

573
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:51.759
<v Speaker 6>Russians who were running around were spies. Everybody seems to

574
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:55.680
<v Speaker 6>have been spying on everybody else. Life Magazine was involved.

575
00:32:56.200 --> 00:33:01.559
<v Speaker 6>And while I was never able to actually prove one

576
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:04.559
<v Speaker 6>way or another what was happening, it's clear that there

577
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:13.759
<v Speaker 6>was some Western intelligence involvement in the Tibetan Nepal YETI search.

578
00:33:16.039 --> 00:33:19.119
<v Speaker 1>These are Bigfoot conspiracy theories.

579
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:20.640
<v Speaker 6>See well, I'm not sure for it really was a

580
00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:22.799
<v Speaker 6>conspiracy theory and that it has no basis. I think

581
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:25.319
<v Speaker 6>it does have some basis. I think what happened is

582
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:28.119
<v Speaker 6>these guys had. There's two things going on. You had

583
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:31.079
<v Speaker 6>this group of guys who are genuinely interested in going

584
00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:35.200
<v Speaker 6>to Central Asia and proving once and for all that

585
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:40.319
<v Speaker 6>the Yeti exists. They just happened to have intelligence connections

586
00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:43.200
<v Speaker 6>and are going to a place where in the nineteen fifties,

587
00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:46.880
<v Speaker 6>the US government, the British government, the government of India

588
00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:49.400
<v Speaker 6>would be very interested to find out what's going on

589
00:33:49.440 --> 00:33:55.119
<v Speaker 6>along the Tibet China border. And so these these elements

590
00:33:55.160 --> 00:33:59.839
<v Speaker 6>kind of collide in an almost comical way. There's this

591
00:34:00.359 --> 00:34:04.920
<v Speaker 6>Russian name Lusanovich who is living in Nepal who wants

592
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.519
<v Speaker 6>to when he hears about the existence of the Yeti,

593
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:12.000
<v Speaker 6>he wants to get nets in a cage and throw

594
00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:14.519
<v Speaker 6>a net over the over the yetty and bring them

595
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.000
<v Speaker 6>back alive. And Carl Kuhn wants to do the same thing.

596
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.679
<v Speaker 6>And so you have all these guys running around and

597
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.679
<v Speaker 6>they're all spying on each other and in the end

598
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:26.159
<v Speaker 6>they don't find anything. If so, if the US or

599
00:34:26.239 --> 00:34:31.079
<v Speaker 6>the UK thought that they could get intelligence on China

600
00:34:31.119 --> 00:34:33.840
<v Speaker 6>added these monster hunters, I don't think it really worked.

601
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:36.599
<v Speaker 1>And how has the search for Bigfoot revolved over the

602
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:39.639
<v Speaker 1>decades in terms of who's looking for them and why

603
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:41.440
<v Speaker 1>and with what tools and methods.

604
00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:46.239
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well that's an interesting evolution as well. You start

605
00:34:46.280 --> 00:34:50.320
<v Speaker 6>off with these sort of elite monster hunters, these individuals,

606
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:55.000
<v Speaker 6>lone individuals. The guys running around looking for the YETI

607
00:34:55.119 --> 00:35:00.159
<v Speaker 6>in the poll are mostly professional mountaineers, British mountaineers. And

608
00:35:00.199 --> 00:35:04.239
<v Speaker 6>then you get some Americans in there, Peter Byrne who's Irish,

609
00:35:04.360 --> 00:35:07.880
<v Speaker 6>He's in there as well. And then you come action

610
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:13.880
<v Speaker 6>shifts back to North America, Western Canada, Western United States,

611
00:35:14.239 --> 00:35:16.760
<v Speaker 6>and then you get guys like Ready to hind In

612
00:35:17.199 --> 00:35:20.760
<v Speaker 6>and John Green, a Canadian journalist who gets very interested

613
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:23.280
<v Speaker 6>in all this. And then Tom Slick comes over and

614
00:35:23.320 --> 00:35:26.480
<v Speaker 6>he starts flowing money into the North America search, and

615
00:35:26.519 --> 00:35:30.000
<v Speaker 6>he brings Peter Byrne with him, and then that's when

616
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:36.320
<v Speaker 6>Grover Krant gets involved. But by say, oh the mid

617
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:42.559
<v Speaker 6>nineteen eighties, that group, that sort of individual approach begins

618
00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:46.119
<v Speaker 6>to wayne. In Tibet, you had what I call the

619
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:50.079
<v Speaker 6>mountaineering approach. You have these big groups of people, which

620
00:35:50.199 --> 00:35:57.199
<v Speaker 6>is the YETTI searches were modeled on traditional mountain climbing projects.

621
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:00.960
<v Speaker 6>We have lots of people porters carrying like a long, live,

622
00:36:02.119 --> 00:36:04.360
<v Speaker 6>very romantic scene of a long line of porters heading

623
00:36:04.400 --> 00:36:08.079
<v Speaker 6>off into the distance carrying boxes on their heads. As

624
00:36:08.159 --> 00:36:11.079
<v Speaker 6>the as the group of Western explorers upfront leads everything

625
00:36:11.440 --> 00:36:15.920
<v Speaker 6>and that kind of dissipates. They try the expedition approach

626
00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:17.800
<v Speaker 6>here in the States for a little while, but that

627
00:36:17.800 --> 00:36:20.719
<v Speaker 6>doesn't really work out, and so what happens is it

628
00:36:20.880 --> 00:36:25.039
<v Speaker 6>evolves into these sort of loane researchers, maybe in pairs whatever,

629
00:36:25.119 --> 00:36:31.239
<v Speaker 6>really enlarge groups moving around the Pacific Northwest looking for

630
00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:36.880
<v Speaker 6>these things. By the nineteen eighties, a kind of new

631
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:41.119
<v Speaker 6>animal comes along, and that's the that's the monster hunting group.

632
00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:44.679
<v Speaker 6>And that's the kind of American invention or American slash

633
00:36:44.760 --> 00:36:50.000
<v Speaker 6>Canadian invention where you have local people. The early guys,

634
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:52.760
<v Speaker 6>the Golden Age guys, they went wherever the evidence led them.

635
00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:54.280
<v Speaker 6>They had to go to China. They went to China,

636
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:55.800
<v Speaker 6>they had to go to Tibet, they went to Tibet,

637
00:36:56.280 --> 00:36:58.519
<v Speaker 6>they had to go to Canada, you know, wherever they went.

638
00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:01.840
<v Speaker 6>But the low cool guys, which is sort of make

639
00:37:01.960 --> 00:37:05.440
<v Speaker 6>up the bulk of monster hunters now, they tended to

640
00:37:05.480 --> 00:37:08.800
<v Speaker 6>stay in their own neighborhoods and they would collect groups

641
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:12.280
<v Speaker 6>of like minded individuals and they would search for whatever

642
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:17.280
<v Speaker 6>monster was supposedly located in their area. And then by

643
00:37:17.320 --> 00:37:20.599
<v Speaker 6>the end of the century into the twenty first century,

644
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.400
<v Speaker 6>you see a kind of resurgence of the elite monster

645
00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:28.000
<v Speaker 6>hunter and English cryptosologists sort of come back to the forefront,

646
00:37:28.519 --> 00:37:32.039
<v Speaker 6>and you have individuals like say Richard Freeman, who travels

647
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:35.920
<v Speaker 6>the world in search of cryptids and they're sort of generalists.

648
00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:40.519
<v Speaker 6>Where on the American side, now you have people who

649
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:45.280
<v Speaker 6>look just for Bigfoot. In the English tradition, you have

650
00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:50.760
<v Speaker 6>cryptosologists who look for Lackness monster or mechillan Benbe or

651
00:37:51.400 --> 00:37:54.599
<v Speaker 6>Chupicabra or the Iran Pendec. They sort of they go

652
00:37:54.639 --> 00:37:57.320
<v Speaker 6>where the monsters lead them. And that's sort of the

653
00:37:57.360 --> 00:37:59.360
<v Speaker 6>state we're at. Now. You have these kind of elite

654
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:04.119
<v Speaker 6>globe trotting cryptosologists, and then you had the local groups

655
00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:08.800
<v Speaker 6>looking for just their particular monster and their particular neighborhood.

656
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:11.239
<v Speaker 5>And so where do you think that that's going to

657
00:38:11.320 --> 00:38:12.920
<v Speaker 5>lead us? I mean, you do you do you think

658
00:38:12.920 --> 00:38:15.840
<v Speaker 5>that the golden age of the of this this sort

659
00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:18.960
<v Speaker 5>of investigation has died along with Krantz and Slick in

660
00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:21.199
<v Speaker 5>renee or do you think that there's going to be

661
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:23.960
<v Speaker 5>resurgence or what do you think it'd look like, you know,

662
00:38:24.000 --> 00:38:25.400
<v Speaker 5>in twenty or fifty years.

663
00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:29.360
<v Speaker 6>Well, most of the most of the elite what I

664
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:34.239
<v Speaker 6>call the elite monster on today are they're not quite

665
00:38:34.519 --> 00:38:37.320
<v Speaker 6>the I mean this's early characters, but they're not quite

666
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:41.599
<v Speaker 6>the flamboyant characters like the Ivan Sanderson's and the ready

667
00:38:41.599 --> 00:38:43.559
<v Speaker 6>to Hindus. And I mean in a good way. I

668
00:38:43.559 --> 00:38:45.639
<v Speaker 6>don't mean to detegrate that this. There's several people do

669
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:49.159
<v Speaker 6>really good work now and if anybody's going to find this,

670
00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:51.159
<v Speaker 6>you know, prove this these things to be real, it'll

671
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:55.920
<v Speaker 6>be them. But they are of a different of a

672
00:38:55.960 --> 00:38:57.719
<v Speaker 6>different style, I guess.

673
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:01.719
<v Speaker 5>Than the Golden Age, right, But I guess what I

674
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:03.679
<v Speaker 5>meant was not so much that the characters that are

675
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:08.039
<v Speaker 5>looking for them, but in terms of where you think

676
00:39:08.039 --> 00:39:09.679
<v Speaker 5>it'll be. I mean, do you think that in twenty

677
00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:11.679
<v Speaker 5>years or one hundred years people will still be looking

678
00:39:11.679 --> 00:39:14.199
<v Speaker 5>for Bigfoot? Do you think that it'll eventually be abandoned

679
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:15.800
<v Speaker 5>if there's no evidence, or what do you think is

680
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:16.519
<v Speaker 5>going to happen with that?

681
00:39:17.000 --> 00:39:19.880
<v Speaker 6>Well, that's a you know, that's prophecy, is not really

682
00:39:19.920 --> 00:39:24.280
<v Speaker 6>my area, but I you know, who knows. I mean,

683
00:39:24.320 --> 00:39:28.119
<v Speaker 6>if if nothing is ever found, then it may very

684
00:39:28.119 --> 00:39:32.519
<v Speaker 6>well just sort of gradually peter out and and we'll

685
00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:35.800
<v Speaker 6>find some other odds thing to look for. But if

686
00:39:35.840 --> 00:39:38.280
<v Speaker 6>some of these things ever do turn up to be real,

687
00:39:38.679 --> 00:39:41.360
<v Speaker 6>I think that'll give you know, a real resurgence, a

688
00:39:41.400 --> 00:39:43.920
<v Speaker 6>real shot in the arm. I think if somebody brought

689
00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:49.480
<v Speaker 6>in a bigfoot carcass tomorrow, there'd be a huge resurgence

690
00:39:49.960 --> 00:39:53.840
<v Speaker 6>in individuals, that the groups that currently exist would would

691
00:39:53.880 --> 00:39:57.920
<v Speaker 6>expand and get even more active, and I think a

692
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:00.800
<v Speaker 6>lot more people would get involved in it. Well.

693
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:02.639
<v Speaker 5>One of the things that jumps out to my mind,

694
00:40:02.760 --> 00:40:05.239
<v Speaker 5>you know, just sort of comparing over the history of

695
00:40:05.239 --> 00:40:10.199
<v Speaker 5>bigfoot research specifically, is, of course the evolving technology you

696
00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:14.079
<v Speaker 5>have what remains to be the best evidence by many,

697
00:40:14.199 --> 00:40:17.360
<v Speaker 5>by many people's estimation of the Patterson film, which of

698
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:21.000
<v Speaker 5>course was shot in sixty seven. And yet these days,

699
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.840
<v Speaker 5>you know, cameras are lighter than ever before, they're better

700
00:40:23.840 --> 00:40:27.119
<v Speaker 5>than ever before, and so you know, today's cryptozologists and

701
00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:32.400
<v Speaker 5>monster hunters have far better technology at their disposal. So

702
00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:35.039
<v Speaker 5>you would think that that would that would influence the search,

703
00:40:35.079 --> 00:40:36.480
<v Speaker 5>right you would think.

704
00:40:36.599 --> 00:40:40.840
<v Speaker 6>I mean the just as you said. I mean, there's

705
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:44.760
<v Speaker 6>all this technology available, small handheld cameras which give really

706
00:40:44.840 --> 00:40:49.199
<v Speaker 6>high quality footage, yet we still I mean just recently,

707
00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:51.880
<v Speaker 6>I think last month there was some some some really

708
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:55.719
<v Speaker 6>laughably fake footage came out of a supposed bix of

709
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:59.239
<v Speaker 6>crossing a highway somewhere in the in the rural South.

710
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:02.679
<v Speaker 6>And I mean, if it's all fuzzy and blurry, uh,

711
00:41:03.119 --> 00:41:07.079
<v Speaker 6>you know, if you can't in the early twenty first century,

712
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:09.559
<v Speaker 6>with all this high tech gadgetry, if you can't get

713
00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:11.760
<v Speaker 6>a clear picture of this thing when it's twenty set

714
00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:14.440
<v Speaker 6>away from you, you know we never.

715
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:20.639
<v Speaker 2>Will fair enough, Yeah that, yeah, Well, you know when

716
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:23.800
<v Speaker 2>we had you on before, you talked about the way

717
00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:27.960
<v Speaker 2>that the theory of evolution kind of got rid of

718
00:41:28.360 --> 00:41:30.639
<v Speaker 2>were wolves, right, so.

719
00:41:30.679 --> 00:41:33.079
<v Speaker 6>Well contributed all well, true.

720
00:41:32.880 --> 00:41:37.400
<v Speaker 2>True contributed to the demise of well as a plausible scenario. Right,

721
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.760
<v Speaker 2>So you know that makes perfect sense, of course. I mean,

722
00:41:41.079 --> 00:41:45.000
<v Speaker 2>you know, history is not prognostication. You know that it's

723
00:41:45.000 --> 00:41:46.960
<v Speaker 2>looking back and I'm looking forward. I mean, you can

724
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:47.719
<v Speaker 2>make conclusions.

725
00:41:47.760 --> 00:41:50.000
<v Speaker 3>I'm not sure maybe it is wrong to even ask

726
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:51.199
<v Speaker 3>you how things are going to turn out.

727
00:41:51.199 --> 00:41:56.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm interested to see myself. Obviously, there's a lot of reasons.

728
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:00.119
<v Speaker 2>Give you an example, like some arguments just stay around forever, right,

729
00:42:01.800 --> 00:42:05.360
<v Speaker 2>one is Krantz was popular.

730
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:07.079
<v Speaker 3>Krantz like to say.

731
00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:10.559
<v Speaker 2>That you never found the bones of large animals in

732
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:16.079
<v Speaker 2>the forest, which Ben and I looked into, and it turns.

733
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:21.599
<v Speaker 3>Out you do it. Yeah, I know. It was just interesting.

734
00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:23.119
<v Speaker 3>Krantz had some interesting positions.

735
00:42:23.159 --> 00:42:26.119
<v Speaker 2>They all did, and and and these these characters, they

736
00:42:26.239 --> 00:42:31.280
<v Speaker 2>they've done such an interesting job of making high drama

737
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:33.159
<v Speaker 2>out of the search for an animal in the way

738
00:42:33.159 --> 00:42:37.800
<v Speaker 2>that some real legitimate scientists looking for lizards won't get.

739
00:42:38.079 --> 00:42:40.679
<v Speaker 2>You know, you don't get front page for that kind

740
00:42:40.719 --> 00:42:44.360
<v Speaker 2>of thing. There's no question there. Just making comments anyway,

741
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:48.719
<v Speaker 2>But speaking of a big events that did take place,

742
00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:51.760
<v Speaker 2>did get a lot of coverage, and things that come

743
00:42:51.880 --> 00:42:56.320
<v Speaker 2>up again in conversation. The Minnesota ice man is a

744
00:42:56.360 --> 00:42:58.480
<v Speaker 2>big case, and now we've talked about it in an

745
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:01.519
<v Speaker 2>entire show on the Minnesota ice Man. It's a long

746
00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:03.760
<v Speaker 2>as a complex story and we don't have to recount

747
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:07.159
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing here. But in your take on things,

748
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:09.960
<v Speaker 2>what did you think the biggest lesson for the cryptozoology

749
00:43:10.000 --> 00:43:11.679
<v Speaker 2>field was from that whole fiasco.

750
00:43:12.719 --> 00:43:16.000
<v Speaker 6>Well, one of the things that I do go on

751
00:43:16.559 --> 00:43:19.199
<v Speaker 6>at length about the Minnesota Iceman in the book and

752
00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:23.440
<v Speaker 6>looking at in particular how the Smithsonian institution reacted to it.

753
00:43:24.159 --> 00:43:28.119
<v Speaker 6>And this is another example of this idea that there

754
00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:33.639
<v Speaker 6>were scientists who are very interested in this. When Ivan

755
00:43:33.679 --> 00:43:38.760
<v Speaker 6>Sanderson and Bernard Hoovelman's the Belgian cryptozoologists, when they hear

756
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:41.440
<v Speaker 6>about the Iceman, they go and look at it, and

757
00:43:41.480 --> 00:43:44.719
<v Speaker 6>they look at it, they see, they take some pictures,

758
00:43:44.760 --> 00:43:47.599
<v Speaker 6>they draw it, and they start telling people about it.

759
00:43:48.159 --> 00:43:51.679
<v Speaker 6>And a number of people who had been sort of

760
00:43:51.719 --> 00:43:56.760
<v Speaker 6>tangentially involved in the Yetti period they're now the Smithsonian.

761
00:43:56.960 --> 00:44:00.199
<v Speaker 6>People like Dylan Ripley, who have been an ornithology who

762
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.679
<v Speaker 6>had who had also been ass man and an asia specialist.

763
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:08.079
<v Speaker 6>He had been involved in the in the Yetti hunt.

764
00:44:08.199 --> 00:44:12.760
<v Speaker 6>He's now the president of the Smithsonian. And John Napier,

765
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:15.320
<v Speaker 6>who had also been involved in the YETI stuff, wrote

766
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:18.800
<v Speaker 6>the first academic book on an almost primates. He's also

767
00:44:18.840 --> 00:44:22.039
<v Speaker 6>working at at the Smithsonian. A number of other individuals

768
00:44:22.639 --> 00:44:26.360
<v Speaker 6>who have YETI big for connections at the Smithsonian, and

769
00:44:26.440 --> 00:44:28.039
<v Speaker 6>so they say, well, let's go find out about this,

770
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:32.519
<v Speaker 6>and the Smithsonian rallies the energy of the federal government

771
00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:34.480
<v Speaker 6>to go and find this thing. And they say, if

772
00:44:34.480 --> 00:44:36.119
<v Speaker 6>it's there, we're going to get it. We're going to

773
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:37.880
<v Speaker 6>bring it back here, and we're going to study it.

774
00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:41.159
<v Speaker 6>And that's going to be that. And they're very excited

775
00:44:41.199 --> 00:44:44.679
<v Speaker 6>about it. And there is a whole string of internal memos.

776
00:44:45.159 --> 00:44:47.000
<v Speaker 6>You see that this is the advantage of the historical

777
00:44:47.000 --> 00:44:49.440
<v Speaker 6>approach when you when you take this position of go

778
00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.679
<v Speaker 6>look for the paperwork at the Smithsonian, there's a there's

779
00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:57.679
<v Speaker 6>a whole pile of memos and interoffice letters and correspondences

780
00:44:58.159 --> 00:45:03.280
<v Speaker 6>where the Smithsonian is a beehive of activity anticipation over

781
00:45:03.320 --> 00:45:06.119
<v Speaker 6>the Minnesota Iceman. They think they're on the verge of

782
00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:11.079
<v Speaker 6>finding a real creature, and they find just just decide

783
00:45:11.079 --> 00:45:13.599
<v Speaker 6>to go to their work and drive in Sanderson because

784
00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:16.519
<v Speaker 6>he's made connections with Frank Hanson, the guy who has

785
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:21.000
<v Speaker 6>the iceman, and Dylan Ripley, the president of the Secretary

786
00:45:21.000 --> 00:45:23.519
<v Speaker 6>of the Smithsonian, says, I'm just going to go to

787
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:27.719
<v Speaker 6>the source. And he just calls Frank Hanson and says, dude,

788
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:30.199
<v Speaker 6>you know, we want to see this thing. We'll pay

789
00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:32.280
<v Speaker 6>you for it. We'll give you credit for it, and

790
00:45:32.480 --> 00:45:38.280
<v Speaker 6>Hanson immediately starts backpedaling like crazy and say, well, I

791
00:45:38.280 --> 00:45:40.280
<v Speaker 6>don't have it anymore. It's gone, well I have is

792
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:44.800
<v Speaker 6>a fake. And so eventually what happens is they, the

793
00:45:44.840 --> 00:45:47.679
<v Speaker 6>guys at the Smithsonian decide this thing is a fake.

794
00:45:48.000 --> 00:45:51.639
<v Speaker 6>We got fooled. It's a carnival trick that looks really good,

795
00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:54.280
<v Speaker 6>but it's not what we think it is, and so

796
00:45:54.440 --> 00:45:56.880
<v Speaker 6>they're going to give up on it. And that is

797
00:45:57.000 --> 00:46:01.440
<v Speaker 6>I use that story as an example of of why

798
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:08.119
<v Speaker 6>scientists are often and academic institutions are so hesitant to

799
00:46:08.159 --> 00:46:11.960
<v Speaker 6>get involved in monster hunting because they want facts. They

800
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.960
<v Speaker 6>want evidence. Scholars want the goods. They don't want stories,

801
00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:20.239
<v Speaker 6>they don't want you know, bad video, they want concrete facts.

802
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:24.239
<v Speaker 6>And there were lots and lots and still are scientists

803
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:28.440
<v Speaker 6>and other scholars who were perfectly willing to accept these

804
00:46:28.440 --> 00:46:31.079
<v Speaker 6>creatures as real, but they wanted to see the facts.

805
00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:33.960
<v Speaker 6>And every time they got a fact into a corner,

806
00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.960
<v Speaker 6>they found out that it was a hoax. And you know,

807
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:41.159
<v Speaker 6>that can only happen so many times before people decide,

808
00:46:41.159 --> 00:46:43.440
<v Speaker 6>you know, I'm not going to I've spent you know,

809
00:46:43.480 --> 00:46:46.519
<v Speaker 6>an individual might say I spent twenty years getting my position.

810
00:46:46.760 --> 00:46:49.840
<v Speaker 6>I'm not going to risk it by endorsing one of

811
00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:52.400
<v Speaker 6>these things and then two months later find out it's

812
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:58.400
<v Speaker 6>a fake. And so when when cryptozoologists complain about how

813
00:46:58.679 --> 00:47:02.440
<v Speaker 6>mainstream science won't support what they're doing, this is the reason,

814
00:47:03.079 --> 00:47:06.000
<v Speaker 6>because you can't just bring them nonsense. You have to

815
00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:08.719
<v Speaker 6>bring them facts. I know plenty of pale We haveth

816
00:47:08.760 --> 00:47:12.840
<v Speaker 6>apologists who would kill to get a chance to examine

817
00:47:12.880 --> 00:47:15.920
<v Speaker 6>a big foot carcass. They would love it. They looked

818
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:19.719
<v Speaker 6>forward to it with great anticipation, but no one's ever

819
00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:20.480
<v Speaker 6>bought them one.

820
00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:23.159
<v Speaker 5>I think that you make a great point with that,

821
00:47:23.239 --> 00:47:25.679
<v Speaker 5>and I'm glad. I'm glad you're pointing that out. One

822
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:28.880
<v Speaker 5>other quick question about the Minnesota ice man, is there

823
00:47:28.920 --> 00:47:32.280
<v Speaker 5>anybody today, even today that you know of, that still

824
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:33.159
<v Speaker 5>believes it was real?

825
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:34.840
<v Speaker 6>You know, it's one of those things where it was

826
00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:38.320
<v Speaker 6>so close, you know, so many people got so excited

827
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:40.320
<v Speaker 6>about this was going to be it, and then it

828
00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:44.079
<v Speaker 6>turned out to be nothing. I'm sure there are still

829
00:47:44.119 --> 00:47:46.800
<v Speaker 6>people around who think it it was.

830
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:49.800
<v Speaker 5>Real, Okay, I just didn't know if there's any prominent people, not.

831
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:52.199
<v Speaker 6>That I'm aware of, But that doesn't mean there aren't

832
00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:52.800
<v Speaker 6>any out there.

833
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:56.159
<v Speaker 1>So, Brian, what are the main arguments for and against

834
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:58.599
<v Speaker 1>cryptozoology as a legitimate science.

835
00:47:59.840 --> 00:48:04.239
<v Speaker 6>Well, I guess part of the reason when when cryptozoologists

836
00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:07.440
<v Speaker 6>are asked about this, they often put forward a number

837
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:12.920
<v Speaker 6>of examples, things like the okapi, a kind of a

838
00:48:13.000 --> 00:48:16.320
<v Speaker 6>kind of antelope with long horns from Africa and a

839
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:20.840
<v Speaker 6>very interesting stripe body pattern, and of course the megamouth

840
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:25.599
<v Speaker 6>shark and the perennial cryptozoology showstop or the seilcan and

841
00:48:25.639 --> 00:48:30.079
<v Speaker 6>they say, well, here are examples of animals which were

842
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:33.480
<v Speaker 6>not We're either thought to not exist or we're known

843
00:48:33.519 --> 00:48:36.880
<v Speaker 6>only from the fossil record. And then but a band

844
00:48:36.920 --> 00:48:40.320
<v Speaker 6>they find live ones. The problem with that argument is

845
00:48:40.360 --> 00:48:44.960
<v Speaker 6>that cryptozoology had no part in the discovery of those animals.

846
00:48:45.079 --> 00:48:49.519
<v Speaker 6>They're all discovered by accident by non cryptozoologists. The basic

847
00:48:49.559 --> 00:48:54.440
<v Speaker 6>definition of what a cryptid is is a creature, which

848
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:59.360
<v Speaker 6>is a folkloric creature. It's known for folklore. There are

849
00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:02.800
<v Speaker 6>a local ledge or stories or whatever that these things exist.

850
00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:04.679
<v Speaker 6>And what you do is you grow up and you

851
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:08.239
<v Speaker 6>try to find out whether these stories had basis in reality.

852
00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:12.840
<v Speaker 6>The problem with the Olcappy and the megamouth shark and

853
00:49:12.880 --> 00:49:14.840
<v Speaker 6>the cela can't, just to name a few examples. Is

854
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:20.159
<v Speaker 6>they're not really mythological creatures. They were essentially unknown completely

855
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:26.239
<v Speaker 6>before they were found, so there really was no cryptozoological aspect. Now,

856
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:28.480
<v Speaker 6>the capy, I might be wrong on the ocapy may

857
00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:32.719
<v Speaker 6>have had some Western folklore about it, but certainly not

858
00:49:32.760 --> 00:49:36.199
<v Speaker 6>the megamouth shark or the felcn. They were just discovered.

859
00:49:36.440 --> 00:49:38.360
<v Speaker 6>It's one day somebody comes around the corner and being

860
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:41.000
<v Speaker 6>there it is, you know, creatures that no one even

861
00:49:41.039 --> 00:49:44.199
<v Speaker 6>suspected were there. Cryptids are creatures which are suspected of

862
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:46.599
<v Speaker 6>being there but which have not yet been proven.

863
00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:50.440
<v Speaker 1>And if any cryptos religis have a favor responded to

864
00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:51.880
<v Speaker 1>that observation.

865
00:49:51.719 --> 00:49:54.400
<v Speaker 6>Not that I'm aware of, but the the pro part

866
00:49:54.519 --> 00:49:57.320
<v Speaker 6>of the story is that there are creatures undoubtedly out

867
00:49:57.360 --> 00:50:01.880
<v Speaker 6>there that we don't know of, and very little time

868
00:50:01.960 --> 00:50:05.239
<v Speaker 6>goes by when new organisms are discovered. All the time,

869
00:50:05.960 --> 00:50:10.000
<v Speaker 6>insects and birds and flowers and even fairly largish animals

870
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:13.440
<v Speaker 6>are still discovered on a fairly regular basis, but nobody

871
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.280
<v Speaker 6>gets really quite worked up about them because they don't

872
00:50:16.679 --> 00:50:19.440
<v Speaker 6>usually have a popular mythological aspect to them.

873
00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:22.519
<v Speaker 5>I have a question about your book in general. There's

874
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:26.039
<v Speaker 5>one thing that was missing from its two and forty

875
00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:29.920
<v Speaker 5>eight pages. There's lots of references, there's lots of notes,

876
00:50:30.360 --> 00:50:32.760
<v Speaker 5>but there are no illustrations or photographs.

877
00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:35.679
<v Speaker 6>Can you explain what that is and what everybody complains about? Yes,

878
00:50:36.039 --> 00:50:40.199
<v Speaker 6>and inisting together. Oh man, there's no pictures. It's not

879
00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:41.400
<v Speaker 6>a coffee table book.

880
00:50:42.880 --> 00:50:45.039
<v Speaker 5>Is that your defense? It's not a coffee table book.

881
00:50:45.800 --> 00:50:50.199
<v Speaker 6>Well, the actual answer to that question is there were

882
00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:53.239
<v Speaker 6>lots of pictures I wanted to use. I found a

883
00:50:53.280 --> 00:50:58.760
<v Speaker 6>lot of really cool unknown pictures of Quover Krantz that

884
00:50:58.760 --> 00:51:01.840
<v Speaker 6>the Smithsonian has found some other things, but there was

885
00:51:01.880 --> 00:51:05.480
<v Speaker 6>a certain cost factor that the publishers didn't want to

886
00:51:05.480 --> 00:51:08.679
<v Speaker 6>pay for the pay for the rights to use them.

887
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:11.960
<v Speaker 6>The image that's on the cover is from my own collection.

888
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:16.960
<v Speaker 6>That's from a Bickerstaff's Boston Almanac from the seventeen eighties,

889
00:51:18.320 --> 00:51:21.599
<v Speaker 6>a drawing which looks for all the world like Bigfoot,

890
00:51:21.800 --> 00:51:25.559
<v Speaker 6>but it's actually a crude copy of a famous illustration

891
00:51:27.360 --> 00:51:31.320
<v Speaker 6>from the British the pioneering British private college Edward Tyson

892
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.400
<v Speaker 6>in his book Anatomy the Pigmies. But when I saw it.

893
00:51:34.440 --> 00:51:36.599
<v Speaker 6>I said, oh, that's I gotta I gotta have that,

894
00:51:37.119 --> 00:51:38.239
<v Speaker 6>and so we put on the cover.

895
00:51:38.760 --> 00:51:41.440
<v Speaker 5>Okay, well, I'll pay for it. I'll forgive you for

896
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:44.199
<v Speaker 5>the for the for the lack of illustrations, because it

897
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:45.440
<v Speaker 5>is it is a damn fine book.

898
00:51:45.440 --> 00:51:46.840
<v Speaker 6>But I appreciate it.

899
00:51:47.159 --> 00:51:49.079
<v Speaker 5>I wish you had some some art in there. Maybe

900
00:51:49.199 --> 00:51:50.239
<v Speaker 5>maybe the second edition.

901
00:51:50.559 --> 00:51:53.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, if you do a sequel, I have some really good,

902
00:51:53.280 --> 00:51:55.039
<v Speaker 2>clear pictures of Bigfoot if you need them.

903
00:51:55.280 --> 00:52:00.280
<v Speaker 6>Okay, great, great, Yeah, books without pictures, that's right, that's right.

904
00:52:01.400 --> 00:52:03.239
<v Speaker 6>And there were a number of people who originally were

905
00:52:03.239 --> 00:52:05.320
<v Speaker 6>going to let me use photographs and artwork, but then

906
00:52:05.400 --> 00:52:06.079
<v Speaker 6>change their minds.

907
00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:08.800
<v Speaker 3>So okay. So we've talked a lot about the people.

908
00:52:09.880 --> 00:52:12.280
<v Speaker 3>We've talked a lot about the history.

909
00:52:12.880 --> 00:52:15.800
<v Speaker 2>What about, in particular the skeptics, Since this is kind

910
00:52:15.800 --> 00:52:19.360
<v Speaker 2>of a show by skeptics, you talk a lot about

911
00:52:19.400 --> 00:52:23.599
<v Speaker 2>the position that skeptics take on each of these people's work,

912
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:27.440
<v Speaker 2>and particularly in the Patterson case, for example, you talk

913
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:30.840
<v Speaker 2>about when Greg Long's book came out, how the skeptics

914
00:52:31.920 --> 00:52:33.559
<v Speaker 2>dealt with that. Can you talk a little bit about

915
00:52:33.559 --> 00:52:37.599
<v Speaker 2>how skepticism has informed or impacted the field of cryptology.

916
00:52:37.800 --> 00:52:39.800
<v Speaker 6>Well, I guess it's the you know, it's the saying

917
00:52:39.840 --> 00:52:42.679
<v Speaker 6>which you fight against. It's the thing which cryptosology fights

918
00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:47.599
<v Speaker 6>against is skepticism, and it's a it's sort of a

919
00:52:47.719 --> 00:52:51.000
<v Speaker 6>tired cliche now, but I think the only way that

920
00:52:51.000 --> 00:52:54.760
<v Speaker 6>that skepticism is really going to change in any way

921
00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:57.800
<v Speaker 6>is you have to prove beyond the shadow of doubt

922
00:52:58.000 --> 00:52:59.840
<v Speaker 6>that these things are real. You have to bring it

923
00:52:59.880 --> 00:53:02.639
<v Speaker 6>up body, live or dead. And that's the only way

924
00:53:02.760 --> 00:53:04.639
<v Speaker 6>we're going to prove that these are real. It's the

925
00:53:04.639 --> 00:53:06.199
<v Speaker 6>only way people will begin to believe them. I mean,

926
00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:08.519
<v Speaker 6>I know that's a bit pedestrian, but there you are.

927
00:53:09.599 --> 00:53:12.199
<v Speaker 6>All the photographs in the world are not gonna are

928
00:53:12.239 --> 00:53:14.880
<v Speaker 6>not going to prove anything. You're not going to convince skeptics.

929
00:53:14.920 --> 00:53:17.920
<v Speaker 6>You have to bring in some actual physical body parts,

930
00:53:18.440 --> 00:53:21.960
<v Speaker 6>and you don't really need that much. I mean, the Gigantopithecus,

931
00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:26.920
<v Speaker 6>which is the idol that Krantz believed that Bigfoot they

932
00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:31.199
<v Speaker 6>evolved from, is really known by just a very few pieces,

933
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:34.239
<v Speaker 6>no post cranial material. It's just a few jaws and teeth.

934
00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:39.519
<v Speaker 6>Yet it's completely accepted by the paleoorthropological community as having existed.

935
00:53:39.360 --> 00:53:42.320
<v Speaker 5>You know, having known about Roger Patterson and his film,

936
00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:45.039
<v Speaker 5>and reading both Greg Long's book and your stuff as well,

937
00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:50.599
<v Speaker 5>it's my impression that Roger Patterson was kind of a dick.

938
00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:52.000
<v Speaker 5>Is that of your impression?

939
00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:56.719
<v Speaker 6>Sort of? I'm not sure if he was in you know,

940
00:53:56.760 --> 00:54:02.639
<v Speaker 6>an Ange Learned eight, but he he wanted to succeed

941
00:54:02.920 --> 00:54:07.880
<v Speaker 6>in Hollywood. He wanted to succeed in some way. He

942
00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:12.000
<v Speaker 6>was born into a rural background, had spent time, had

943
00:54:12.039 --> 00:54:14.760
<v Speaker 6>joined the US Army, had gone overseas, seen a bit

944
00:54:14.800 --> 00:54:18.880
<v Speaker 6>of the world, and he wanted to expand his life

945
00:54:19.000 --> 00:54:23.880
<v Speaker 6>beyond the fairly narrow confines of what he had been

946
00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:26.400
<v Speaker 6>born into. He was a man with a lot of ambition,

947
00:54:27.039 --> 00:54:29.800
<v Speaker 6>and he winds up with this film and he thinks

948
00:54:29.840 --> 00:54:32.840
<v Speaker 6>that is going to sort of take him where he

949
00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:37.159
<v Speaker 6>wants to go. One of the things that attracted me

950
00:54:37.199 --> 00:54:40.719
<v Speaker 6>to this whole field is that these are all tragic guys.

951
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:44.840
<v Speaker 6>In all my writing, from my first book on, I've

952
00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:48.320
<v Speaker 6>always been attracted to tragic characters, people who try to

953
00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:51.760
<v Speaker 6>prove something that everyone else says can't be proved, or

954
00:54:52.280 --> 00:54:54.159
<v Speaker 6>to show something is there that everyone else says it's

955
00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:57.679
<v Speaker 6>not there. And that's that's why I start the book

956
00:54:57.719 --> 00:54:59.320
<v Speaker 6>off with the line that this is a story about

957
00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:03.000
<v Speaker 6>dreams that don't come true. These are all guys who

958
00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:06.719
<v Speaker 6>and some women too, who put their whole lives into

959
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:10.239
<v Speaker 6>this thing and put all their money down on one

960
00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:14.000
<v Speaker 6>throw of the dice and came up, what's the bad one?

961
00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:16.920
<v Speaker 6>Snake eyes? The snake eye is the bad one going

962
00:55:17.039 --> 00:55:22.119
<v Speaker 6>through wherever the bad one is. And yet, despite everyone

963
00:55:22.199 --> 00:55:24.599
<v Speaker 6>telling them that that what they're doing is a waste

964
00:55:24.599 --> 00:55:28.199
<v Speaker 6>of time, that they're they're they're chasing after something which

965
00:55:28.280 --> 00:55:31.480
<v Speaker 6>is not there, they don't care. They just plow forward anyway.

966
00:55:31.719 --> 00:55:36.719
<v Speaker 6>They are so committed to this, they're so wanting to

967
00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:40.320
<v Speaker 6>do this, and in the end they failed. There is

968
00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:46.199
<v Speaker 6>a very popular kind of plot device or narrative in

969
00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:50.960
<v Speaker 6>storytelling where you have the hero, the scientist, who spends

970
00:55:51.000 --> 00:55:53.840
<v Speaker 6>his life trying to prove that this thing or that

971
00:55:54.000 --> 00:55:58.559
<v Speaker 6>thing doesn't exist. And they're they're ridiculed and there and

972
00:55:58.599 --> 00:56:02.360
<v Speaker 6>there at their crackpots, and they're crazy, and they're this

973
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:05.159
<v Speaker 6>and they're that, And on their deathbed they're lying there

974
00:56:05.199 --> 00:56:07.880
<v Speaker 6>and and just before they picked their last breath, some

975
00:56:08.400 --> 00:56:12.199
<v Speaker 6>young acolyte comes bursting in, say, professor, they found it.

976
00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:14.800
<v Speaker 6>You were right all along. Now everyone knows you were right,

977
00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:17.960
<v Speaker 6>and oh the guy dies happy. But this is a

978
00:56:18.000 --> 00:56:21.920
<v Speaker 6>story where these guys were literally on their deathbeds and

979
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:25.840
<v Speaker 6>no one comes bursting in, No one cares. It never

980
00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:29.039
<v Speaker 6>gets proven. They go to their grades believing that these

981
00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:32.960
<v Speaker 6>things were real, but but knowing that no one believed

982
00:56:33.000 --> 00:56:34.199
<v Speaker 6>them that they were real.

983
00:56:34.400 --> 00:56:36.159
<v Speaker 3>We like to ask our guests every time.

984
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:41.719
<v Speaker 2>Uh, we've only had two guests repeats so far, but uh,

985
00:56:41.920 --> 00:56:42.960
<v Speaker 2>what's your favorite monster?

986
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:45.480
<v Speaker 6>My favorite? Oh, we're wolves obviously.

987
00:56:45.679 --> 00:56:48.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, there, I didn't know asked you last time

988
00:56:48.920 --> 00:56:52.480
<v Speaker 2>or not we added that question in uh kind of

989
00:56:53.920 --> 00:56:55.280
<v Speaker 2>then we'll go back and check our record.

990
00:56:55.440 --> 00:56:59.599
<v Speaker 6>Well, they're they're they're the great tragic monsters. Sure, I

991
00:56:59.639 --> 00:57:01.719
<v Speaker 6>mean I think there are werewolves. I want to make

992
00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:04.679
<v Speaker 6>that clear. I don't believe there are actually are werewolves,

993
00:57:04.679 --> 00:57:07.079
<v Speaker 6>but you know, from a from a mythological point of view,

994
00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:11.559
<v Speaker 6>I we sort of scided with the werewolves, thinking vampires.

995
00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:17.320
<v Speaker 2>They are getting a lot more hot romance book action lately.

996
00:57:18.159 --> 00:57:20.719
<v Speaker 6>Yeah. Yeah, a lot of teen girls apparently like the

997
00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:22.880
<v Speaker 6>idea of a big, muscled, hairy guy.

998
00:57:23.559 --> 00:57:26.039
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so maybe we should change our question to our

999
00:57:26.079 --> 00:57:27.280
<v Speaker 2>you team Jacob.

1000
00:57:28.519 --> 00:57:33.400
<v Speaker 3>Our team effort, I abstain on such a question.

1001
00:57:35.079 --> 00:57:36.559
<v Speaker 5>So not just teen girls, right, Blake?

1002
00:57:36.880 --> 00:57:40.039
<v Speaker 3>Right? No, no, no, no, no, no, it's not. Apparently it's

1003
00:57:40.079 --> 00:57:41.119
<v Speaker 3>also housewives.

1004
00:57:41.239 --> 00:57:44.800
<v Speaker 2>So, uh, I noticed that when I'm in the romance

1005
00:57:44.800 --> 00:57:49.400
<v Speaker 2>book book and Blake okay, yes, yes, I read vampire

1006
00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:51.599
<v Speaker 2>romans and uh and werewolves.

1007
00:57:51.599 --> 00:57:53.360
<v Speaker 1>Well I didn't know about that, but you did, so

1008
00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:53.920
<v Speaker 1>that you go.

1009
00:57:54.079 --> 00:57:56.039
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, so you nailed it.

1010
00:57:56.360 --> 00:58:01.800
<v Speaker 2>Okay, she said, A my, You know, I don't just

1011
00:58:01.880 --> 00:58:04.599
<v Speaker 2>do ademmy with my monster research.

1012
00:58:04.719 --> 00:58:04.840
<v Speaker 3>Right.

1013
00:58:04.880 --> 00:58:09.719
<v Speaker 2>It's well, thank you so much for coming back and

1014
00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:10.719
<v Speaker 2>talking to us again.

1015
00:58:10.960 --> 00:58:11.480
<v Speaker 6>My pleasure.

1016
00:58:11.719 --> 00:58:12.599
<v Speaker 3>We'll cut out the.

1017
00:58:14.360 --> 00:58:14.480
<v Speaker 6>Art.

1018
00:58:17.519 --> 00:58:20.400
<v Speaker 5>I didn't really say that, that's right, I never.

1019
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:24.559
<v Speaker 6>Had anywhere you want.

1020
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:23.639
<v Speaker 5>To you thanks a lot.

1021
00:58:23.679 --> 00:58:26.599
<v Speaker 2>We'll put at our show notes and hopefully you'll have

1022
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:27.599
<v Speaker 2>great success with this.

1023
00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:31.239
<v Speaker 3>And again, thank you so much for being a part

1024
00:58:31.239 --> 00:58:31.599
<v Speaker 3>of our show.

1025
00:58:31.880 --> 00:58:32.280
<v Speaker 6>Pleasure.

1026
00:58:32.480 --> 00:58:33.280
<v Speaker 3>Thanks a lot. All right.

1027
00:58:34.239 --> 00:58:39.679
<v Speaker 2>Monster Monster Talk is proud to be sponsored by Skeptic Magazine.

1028
00:58:39.920 --> 00:58:42.480
<v Speaker 2>Today's episode was about the history of the Hunt for

1029
00:58:42.559 --> 00:58:46.400
<v Speaker 2>Sasquatch and featured doctor Brian Regal discussing his newest book,

1030
00:58:46.679 --> 00:58:49.599
<v Speaker 2>Searching for Sasquatch, a link to which will be in

1031
00:58:49.639 --> 00:58:52.599
<v Speaker 2>our show notes. I'm Blake Smith, and my co hosts

1032
00:58:52.599 --> 00:58:55.840
<v Speaker 2>today were Ben Radford and doctor Karen Stoles. Now Monster

1033
00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:58.199
<v Speaker 2>Talks theme music is by Peach Stealing Monkeys.

1034
00:58:58.719 --> 00:58:59.880
<v Speaker 3>Thank you for.

1035
00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:39.960
<v Speaker 4>Want to stay abreast of the latest from Skeptic Magazine

1036
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:44.400
<v Speaker 4>and the Skeptic Society. Want cutting edge skeptical articles delivered

1037
00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:49.440
<v Speaker 4>straight to your inbox every week, then subscribe to e Skeptic,

1038
00:59:49.840 --> 00:59:54.159
<v Speaker 4>the free electronic newsletter of the Skeptic Society. Visit skeptic

1039
00:59:54.280 --> 00:59:55.800
<v Speaker 4>dot com to sign up.

1040
00:59:56.400 --> 00:59:58.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna have to buy any scale. I got all

1041
00:59:58.519 --> 01:00:00.880
<v Speaker 2>excited last night. I on the scale and it said

1042
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:03.280
<v Speaker 2>I had weighed ten pounds less, and I was like, fantastic,

1043
01:00:03.639 --> 01:00:05.519
<v Speaker 2>and you know I'm a skeptic. So I got off

1044
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:07.679
<v Speaker 2>the scale and got back on again, and it said

1045
01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:09.519
<v Speaker 2>you've lost ten pounds. I was like, fuck, hey, this

1046
01:00:09.559 --> 01:00:11.679
<v Speaker 2>is fantastic. And I got off again and got back

1047
01:00:11.679 --> 01:00:13.519
<v Speaker 2>on again. It says you lost five pounds, and I'm

1048
01:00:13.519 --> 01:00:14.440
<v Speaker 2>like you scale,