Speaker 1: It's Night Side with Dan Ray on WBZY Constance video.
Speaker 2: Last week, there was a very interesting hearing at the
Speaker 2: state House. There's a special Commission on combating Anti Semitism
Speaker 2: at the Massachusetts State House, and on the hot seat
Speaker 2: was a gentleman by the name of Max Page. He's
Speaker 2: the president of the Massachusetts Teachers Association, the largest teachers
Speaker 2: union in New England, represents one hundred and seventeen thousand
Speaker 2: members with us tonight is a friend of this program,
Speaker 2: Jeff Robbins, former the director of the Anti Defamation League
Speaker 2: here in New England. And this hearing Jeff at the
Speaker 2: State House last week drew some very interesting questions and
Speaker 2: some inadequate answers from Max Page. Could you set it
Speaker 2: up a little bit. There's an article that I've read.
Speaker 3: In a.
Speaker 2: Publication called The Free Press. I'm not all that familiar with,
Speaker 2: but the article says, welcome to Homassachusetts. Rampant and ubiquitous
Speaker 2: anti semitism is making its way into the largest teachers
Speaker 2: union in New England. Lawmakers say this is frightening.
Speaker 4: Welcome Jeff, Thank you, Dana, thank you for having me. Well,
Speaker 4: there are sort of two pieces to it. Shortly after
Speaker 4: the mass slaughter that occurred on October seventh. The Massachusetts
Speaker 4: Teachers Association, which promptly denounced not the slaughter but the
Speaker 4: Israeli quote unquote genocide, trying to prevent another slaughter, commissioned
Speaker 4: a fellow who may be the last person in Massachusetts
Speaker 4: who could have been commissioned to put together objectively so
Speaker 4: called educational resources for teachers to use in their schools
Speaker 4: with kids teaching them about the conflict. And to say
Speaker 4: that the materials were biased doesn't begin to state it.
Speaker 4: The fellow that they asked to commission this Villa name
Speaker 4: Ricardo Rosa, had praised terrorists, had supported a professor who
Speaker 4: called Zionist swine and the like. So, putting aside how
Speaker 4: you feel about the conflict, the notion this guy was
Speaker 4: in a position to develop educational materials that presented the
Speaker 4: conflict in anything close to a fair fashion was ludicrous
Speaker 4: and intellectually insulting, the more so from a teacher and
Speaker 4: from a union. What happened this past week, this has
Speaker 4: been a controversy, as you know, over the last year,
Speaker 4: was that the legislative commission looking into anti Semitism went
Speaker 4: beyond the question of whether or not this stuff was
Speaker 4: just ridiculously biased and an affront. But whether or not
Speaker 4: the materials that were disseminated under the leadership of this
Speaker 4: fellow constituted blatant anti Semitism, and of course they surely did.
Speaker 4: They featured, for example, the Star of David comprised of
Speaker 4: dollar bills. They had a poster that was distributed telling
Speaker 4: saying f off Zionists, describing Zionists as snakes and other stuff.
Speaker 4: This is the kind of stuff which had it been
Speaker 4: people of color or anybody else, would have never gotten
Speaker 4: out of the starting gate. And so this examination is
Speaker 4: the testimony. The hearing at the state House was a
Speaker 4: questioning of the head of the Teachers Association as to
Speaker 4: how this possibly could be justified. And among the gems
Speaker 4: that came out of this testimony was the question by
Speaker 4: one of the members of the legislative, Simon Cataldo, asking
Speaker 4: him about the Star of David made of dollar bills. Quote,
Speaker 4: you'd agree this is anti semitic image recorrect, And here's
Speaker 4: what the president of the Massachusetts Teacher Association, the head
Speaker 4: of a teachers union replied. He replied, I'm not going
Speaker 4: to evaluate that. So you've got two problems. One is
Speaker 4: absurd bias in our schools, and the second is blatant
Speaker 4: and a Semitism.
Speaker 2: Well, we attempted to have the president, we invited once
Speaker 2: again the president of the teachers Union, Max Page, to
Speaker 2: join the conversation tonight, and also we certainly would have
Speaker 2: welcomed the vice president, a woman named Deb McCarthy. They
Speaker 2: sent us a pully brief statement, but I'd like to
Speaker 2: reach us a bit of it. In meeting with the
Speaker 2: Special Commission on Combating Anti Semitism in Massachusetts, the Massachusetts
Speaker 2: Teachers Union Association, excuse me, had hoped for honest dialogue
Speaker 2: and an exchange of ideas. Instead, the president of the
Speaker 2: union and one of its members were subjected to two
Speaker 2: hours of political grants that did not further the cause
Speaker 2: of combating anti Semitism. So the question that was asked
Speaker 2: is being characterized as grandstanding, and you're correct. I've seen
Speaker 2: this picture, if you will, of dollar bills made into
Speaker 2: a star of David, which of course is just an
Speaker 2: old blood libel that you know, money is what drives
Speaker 2: Jewish decisions, and it's deplorable that his response to that
Speaker 2: was was simply he was not going to respond to it,
Speaker 2: He's not going to dignify that question with an answer.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, on top of everything else. What an
Speaker 4: insult that the head of the Massachusetts that the Teacher
Speaker 4: Association itself would issue a statement like that, unable to
Speaker 4: answer a simple question about whether or not that was
Speaker 4: anti Semitic imagery teacher. The head of the Teachers Association says,
Speaker 4: I'm not going to evaluate that, and then tries to
Speaker 4: basically respond to the fact that it was such a
Speaker 4: pathetic answer by accusing the person who asked him the
Speaker 4: question of grand standing or of not engaging in an
Speaker 4: honest dialogue. It's just breathtaking.
Speaker 2: So what happened today was my producer Marita sent left,
Speaker 2: called and send an email to the mass Teachers Association
Speaker 2: basically explaining to them that she was reaching out from
Speaker 2: WZ News Radio. Just left you a voicemail as well.
Speaker 2: We're looking to talk about this topic tonight at nine
Speaker 2: and we're wondering if this is spokes for us from
Speaker 2: the MTA. We'll join Dan this evening to discuss even
Speaker 2: if it's for a segment or two. It's all done remotely,
Speaker 2: so via telephone, no needs to travel anywhere in person.
Speaker 2: We can be flexible, so please let us know whether
Speaker 2: it's just to know if we can coordinate something for
Speaker 2: this evening. And the response came back fairly quickly from
Speaker 2: someone named Scott McClellan, who I guess is their PR person.
Speaker 2: I can't set anything up, sorry, I hope Dan and
Speaker 2: you realize that the resources are not items on the
Speaker 2: front of our website, and that these are items available
Speaker 2: to MTA members that the Board of Directors asked to
Speaker 2: be provided to members in hopes of understanding the conflict
Speaker 2: and being able to teach about it.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 4: That doesn't even rise to the level. It doesn't rise
Speaker 4: to the level of words salad. It's just garbage.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Marita response, She says, oh, hey, Scott, okay,
Speaker 2: we don't entirely understand that in terms of the availability
Speaker 2: of the items to members compared to the public, et cetera.
Speaker 2: That's why we're hoping to have you guys who want
Speaker 2: to explain it further so we can understand that better.
Speaker 2: Is there another statement you can provide us on the
Speaker 2: latest And there was that statement that I read and
Speaker 2: that's it. Now invited mister Page on several occasions and
Speaker 2: in the statement he says, as noted in opening remarks,
Speaker 2: by delivering this is the statement from the Teachers Association
Speaker 2: by MTA President Max Page. Anti Semitism is inextricably linked
Speaker 2: to so many other forms of prejudice and hate that
Speaker 2: we need a wide ranging, vocal and unequivocal reput repudiation
Speaker 2: of hate in all its forms. And yet he wasn't
Speaker 2: able to address what dollar bills you know, made into
Speaker 2: a star of David might necessarily represent in these teaching materials.
Speaker 2: There's a disconnect here that I don't understand.
Speaker 4: Jeff Well, you're being charitable when you refer to it
Speaker 4: as a disconnect. It's just patent dishonesty. I mean, had
Speaker 4: there been an honest response to the question by your producer,
Speaker 4: will you agree to come in and have an honest
Speaker 4: dialogue about these issues, then the answer would have been yeah.
Speaker 4: When is not only fly but circumnavigate the globe? Because
Speaker 4: there is no capacity to answer these questions at all,
Speaker 4: a fact which was amply demonstrated in the state House,
Speaker 4: and that they basically choose to respond by blaming those
Speaker 4: who asked them the questions that they couldn't answer, as
Speaker 4: though it's the fault of the people who ask the
Speaker 4: questions rather than their fault. I mean that speaks volumes.
Speaker 2: Jeff, we're going to take a quick break. We're going
Speaker 2: to be joined by Sarah cob in just a moment.
Speaker 2: Sarah's the deputy director, as you well know, of the
Speaker 2: New England Anti Defamation League. And I also want to
Speaker 2: invite our callers to join this conversation because I think
Speaker 2: it's terribly important when materials are being given to teachers
Speaker 2: for their I guess consideration, but those materials are not
Speaker 2: being circulated widely so parents can see. As I understand
Speaker 2: that I could be wrong here, maybe the Teachers' Union
Speaker 2: has sent these materials to the parents of students. Well,
Speaker 2: but I don't think so. I just don't think so.
Speaker 2: And we'll ask Sarah about that. Jeff, I want you
Speaker 2: to stay with us. We'll incorporate Sarah into this conversation.
Speaker 2: And if there's anyone out there for the Massachusetts Teachers
Speaker 2: Union who wants to join the conversation, be it mister
Speaker 2: Page or missus McCarthy or any other representative, you are
Speaker 2: more than welcome, and you're welcome any night to come
Speaker 2: on and talk with with Jeff or with Sarah or
Speaker 2: with other representatives of you know, long standing organizations here
Speaker 2: in New England that have fought against anti Semitism wherever
Speaker 2: it raises its ugly head. We'll be back on Nightside.
Speaker 2: Our phone number is six one seven two five four
Speaker 2: ten thirty. Also there's one at six one seven nine
Speaker 2: three one ten thirty. B right back on Nightside.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Speaker 1: Nightside Studios. I'm WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: I'm joined by Jeff Robbins, who is a syndicated columnist.
Speaker 2: He's also a a learned, well well known attorney, specializes
Speaker 2: in a number of different areas, but specifically also first Amendment.
Speaker 2: We've talked with Jeff, Jeff as the former director of
Speaker 2: the Anti Defamation League here in New England, and we're
Speaker 2: now going to be joined by Sarah Colb, deputy director
Speaker 2: of the New England Anti Defamation League. Sarah, welcome Tonight'sie.
Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us. What is your reaction? I assume
Speaker 2: it probably falls along the line of Jeff. With this
Speaker 2: information that the Mass Teachers Association apparently has provided some
Speaker 2: quote unquote teaching materials to their membership, which has a
Speaker 2: pretty distinct and disgusting anti Semitic flavor.
Speaker 3: Dan, thanks so much for having me and for having
Speaker 3: this really critical conversation. Before I answer that, I just
Speaker 3: think it's really important to take a step back and
Speaker 3: look at what's happening in context. So, after October seventh,
Speaker 3: the largest laughter of Jews since the Holocaust, Jews have
Speaker 3: experienced an absolute tidal wave of anti Semitic hate that's
Speaker 3: happening across the country, and that's certainly happening here in
Speaker 3: this Commonwealth. It was already on the rise, but since
Speaker 3: ten to seven it has gotten so much worse. Almost
Speaker 3: immediately following the atrocities of ten to seven, the MTA
Speaker 3: decided to blast Israel. This is in December of twenty
Speaker 3: twenty three, blast Israel, accusing it of genocide against the Palestinians,
Speaker 3: making no mention of the hostages or any of the
Speaker 3: atrocities committed by Hamas, and essentially blaming Israel for.
Speaker 6: All the violence that has ensued.
Speaker 3: At the same time, they passed a resolution saying that
Speaker 3: they were going to create curriculum on Israel Palestine. Now,
Speaker 3: let's be clear, creating curriculum is not something that this Union,
Speaker 3: as I understand it, had before, but for the first
Speaker 3: time ever, they're going to create curriculum on an extraordinarily
Speaker 3: complex global conflict. This is the same Union. Remind you know,
Speaker 3: it's helpful to remember that just recently fought and won
Speaker 3: a battle against standardized test standardized testing on you know,
Speaker 3: regular topics like English and maths skills. But they instead
Speaker 3: want to engage in providing curriculum on this highly complicated
Speaker 3: global conflict that requires quite a bit of nuance and understanding.
Speaker 3: So the resources were published a few months.
Speaker 6: Ago, and it's pretty obvious that.
Speaker 3: There is one single perspective that's being pushed.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Although there's a few unobjectionable resources sprinkled in, the overwhelming
Speaker 3: majority are extremely empty Israel. And of course there are
Speaker 3: many that are outright anti Semitic, like the ones that
Speaker 3: you've been discussing so far and that we're highlighted by
Speaker 3: the Commission. If the MTA were truly interested in providing
Speaker 3: resources for teachers to promote their learning, as Max Page suggested,
Speaker 3: how could it possibly justify giving such a one sided view,
Speaker 3: and worse, including materials that engage in these hateful anti
Speaker 3: Semitic tropes. Now I want to go back to what
Speaker 3: I said earlier, it's not doing this in a vacuum.
Speaker 3: It is doing this at a time when Jewish and
Speaker 3: Israeli students are suffering immeasurably. The incidents of hate that
Speaker 3: we are seeing in our K through twelve schools right
Speaker 3: now have skyrocketed.
Speaker 6: I'll just give you.
Speaker 3: One tiny anecdote. Our twenty twenty four numbers are not
Speaker 3: out yet, but we had one single week where at ADL,
Speaker 3: New England, we got reports of five separate incidents of
Speaker 3: swastika vandalism in a single week. So this is not normal,
Speaker 3: but it is being normalized. And the MTA's actions here,
Speaker 3: I think risk pouring gasoline on a raging fire. And
Speaker 3: I have to say, while we're on the topic of gasoline,
Speaker 3: that statement that you read by page in response to
Speaker 3: the hearing feels like more gaslighting to me, which is
Speaker 3: becoming all too common whenever the Jewish community points out
Speaker 3: the clear anti Semitic hatre that's happening. We all know
Speaker 3: what we found those images. But Paige refused to answer
Speaker 3: the question and instead wants to shift our focus so
Speaker 3: that we're talking about the motives of those asking the questions,
Speaker 3: And he's doing that because he could not defend what
Speaker 3: is obviously indefensible.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm looking at some of these materials that apparently
Speaker 2: were circulated to teachers. This is an article out of
Speaker 2: the Free Press which is entitled Welcome to Hamassachusetts. So
Speaker 2: there's the one that Jeff was referred to, which was
Speaker 2: the dollar bill. Two dollar bills which are basically formed
Speaker 2: in triangles, which are formed to make a star of David,
Speaker 2: which is nothing more than in old trope and blood libels.
Speaker 2: There's one this is from THEMS Teacher Association Resources on
Speaker 2: Israel and Occupied Palestine Visuals and Art, a hundred posters
Speaker 2: made by artists from across the world in solidarity with
Speaker 2: Palestine from apartheid Art, and it's a picture of looks
Speaker 2: like a young woman with a mask and an automatic weapon.
Speaker 2: What was taken by force can only be restored by force.
Speaker 2: Another poster Day of Rage, Decolonize this place, solidarity contingent.
Speaker 2: And then there's there's one a picture of President Biden,
Speaker 2: who's labeled a serial killer. More than twenty thousand Palestinian
Speaker 2: death since October seventh, Lip service is no solution to genocide.
Speaker 2: And then a children's book mentioned in The material called
Speaker 2: Handle Us Return, published last year by the Palestinian Feminist Collective,
Speaker 2: includes lines like a group of bullies called Zionists wanted land,
Speaker 2: so they stole it by force and hurt many people.
Speaker 2: The book ends with a call to action and quoting
Speaker 2: from the article in The Free Press, urging readers to
Speaker 2: quote help handle a Free Palestine, asking them to fill
Speaker 2: in prompts such as I will raise funds for the
Speaker 2: children of Palestine, buy I will chant this at a
Speaker 2: Palestine protest. I mean, this is nothing more than brainwashing.
Speaker 3: This is an education right And Dan, you raised a
Speaker 3: really important point earlier about you know where these materials
Speaker 3: sent to parents. No, they were not. These were provided
Speaker 3: on the member's only website of the MTA. Now quarry
Speaker 3: why it shouldn't be made public when the MTA is
Speaker 3: now engaging, apparently in the creation curriculum on such a
Speaker 3: sensitive topic that we should we shouldn't allow people to
Speaker 3: know what their tax dollars are paying for and what
Speaker 3: their students are learning in school. That seems really questionable
Speaker 3: to me.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's it's more than questionable. And again, just
Speaker 2: the the demeanor of Max Page, this is a very
Speaker 2: active UH political union. They've they've fought long and hard
Speaker 2: and successfully to eliminate the uh mcast graduation requirement. They've also,
Speaker 2: i think, stated publicly that they want to allow teachers
Speaker 2: UH unions to strike. In Massachusetts, in the city of
Speaker 2: Newton a year ago, teachers Union was out on strike
Speaker 2: for nearly three weeks, pretty much the entire month of
Speaker 2: January last winter.
Speaker 5: UH.
Speaker 2: And now they are they are basically, in my opinion,
Speaker 2: just my opinion, politicizing what is going on in the
Speaker 2: Middle East. For for students here, this is the sort
Speaker 2: of thing that would be discussed at a college or
Speaker 2: a graduate student level. You would not be indoctrinating students
Speaker 2: with this at either junior high, high school or elementary
Speaker 2: school level. I'd like to take a break, Jeff and Sarah,
Speaker 2: because at the bottom of the hour, I want to
Speaker 2: invite callers to join the conversation six one seven two
Speaker 2: ten thirty or six one seven nine three one ten thirty.
Speaker 2: We'll get to phone calls. This is frightening. And as
Speaker 2: I say, I have some information UH today, some further
Speaker 2: information about mister Page, who has been invited on this
Speaker 2: program on many occasions. He's more than welcome UH to
Speaker 2: join us on any night that he would like. UH,
Speaker 2: And I certainly would love to have him join us
Speaker 2: on some night with Sarah and or Jeff Uh to
Speaker 2: discuss this in graded detail. I think it involves students,
Speaker 2: It involves parents of students. If you're someone now in
Speaker 2: your thirties or forties and you're listening to this program
Speaker 2: and you have a parent in a public scho in Massachusetts,
Speaker 2: this has a direct impact, a potential direct impact on you.
Speaker 2: We'll take a quick break right back on Nightside after.
Speaker 1: This Side with Dan Ray on WBZ Boston's news radio.
Speaker 2: I am joined by Jeff Robbins and Sarah coleb. Sarah's
Speaker 2: the deputy director of the New England Anti Defamation League.
Speaker 2: Jeff is the former director of the Anti Defamation League
Speaker 2: here in New England. And we are talking about some
Speaker 2: teaching materials, allegedly anti Semitic teaching materials we've described them
Speaker 2: during the first hour, that have been presented to teachers
Speaker 2: across Massachusetts by the Massachusetts Teachers Association. It was the
Speaker 2: subject of a hearing at the State House last week
Speaker 2: in front of a special State Commission on Anti Semitism
Speaker 2: and the president of the Teachers' Union, gentleman by the
Speaker 2: name of Max Page, who has been invited to come
Speaker 2: on this show on at least three occasions that I
Speaker 2: can think of, and declined the opportunity on every occasion,
Speaker 2: and even today when we were looking for a spokesperson
Speaker 2: from the association, the Mass Teachers Association, we were told
Speaker 2: no one is available. We're now going to go to
Speaker 2: phone calls and let me start it off with Mary
Speaker 2: in Natick. Mary, you a first tonight on Nightside. Appreciate
Speaker 2: you phone call. You're on with Jeff Robbins and Sarah
Speaker 2: cole Garad Ahead.
Speaker 7: Mary, Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: You're welcome.
Speaker 7: So let me start by saying, so, my name is
Speaker 7: doctor Mary bar Halpern. I'm calling from Natick. I am
Speaker 7: a clinical psychologist and I'm also the director of trauma
Speaker 7: training in Parents for Peace, which is an organization that
Speaker 7: fed radicalization. And interestingly enough, I spoke in the MPa, Sorry,
Speaker 7: in the Combat Antisemitism Commission that was right before this
Speaker 7: one with next Page, and I think what we're missing
Speaker 7: from this conversation is the outcome of what's happening. So
Speaker 7: since October seventh, I've been seeing in my clinic a
Speaker 7: lot of Jewish students and a lot of Israeli students
Speaker 7: who are battling the depression and trauma and anxiety and
Speaker 7: are afraid of going to school and are avoiding and
Speaker 7: are isolating because of what's going on. And I really
Speaker 7: do see it as something of failed education. As what
Speaker 7: we think from the MPa, this is not just an
Speaker 7: education issue. This is a social issue. This is what
Speaker 7: leads to radicalization. And more than that, from what I'm
Speaker 7: seeing through Parents for Peace is that this is word
Speaker 7: toward what was being said back then and now also
Speaker 7: by nail nazing and by white supremacists as well.
Speaker 2: Okay, so I think I understand your perspective, and if
Speaker 2: either Jeff or Sarah want a comment, they can, or
Speaker 2: if you when they finish, if you have a question
Speaker 2: for either of them, You're welcome to that question. Jeff, Sarah,
Speaker 2: can you respond to what the caller had to say?
Speaker 4: Well, I've got a comment on that is that? And
Speaker 4: this is something Dan that you have been really vigorously,
Speaker 4: robustly talking about for quite some time, is that the
Speaker 4: effort to scare the Bejesus out of Jewish kids and
Speaker 4: Jewish faculty on campus, by organizations like Students for Justice
Speaker 4: in Palestine or by similar groups. It is aimed at
Speaker 4: driving people underground, kids underground. It is aimed at depressing them,
Speaker 4: as the caller says, and making them ashamed. And the
Speaker 4: goal is that nefarious. It seems to me. It is
Speaker 4: to basically intimidate people into silence and break them emotionally.
Speaker 4: I don't think that's an overstatement. So what the caller
Speaker 4: is talking about as the effect of this stuff, I
Speaker 4: think is the intent of this stuff.
Speaker 2: Well, we've seen this whole resurgence of antisemitism, overt anti
Speaker 2: semitism in the wake of October seventh. All of us
Speaker 2: know about the hostage placards which have been torn down
Speaker 2: in public places and off the fences of residents who
Speaker 2: put those placards up to keep alive the memory of
Speaker 2: these hostages. The anti Semitism has always been there, but
Speaker 2: in recent months after October seventh, it became much more
Speaker 2: overt and much more out there than anything I had
Speaker 2: ever seen during my lifetime. And I'd love to know
Speaker 2: if Jeff Sarah agree with that. I'd also love to
Speaker 2: know if the doctor agrees with that.
Speaker 6: I'm Sarah on one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 3: And I just want to highlight what doctor mar Halpern
Speaker 3: said in what she sort of eloquently testified about before
Speaker 3: the commission. We're talking here about the real world impact
Speaker 3: of the hate that is already being experienced and the
Speaker 3: way that juition is really student are not only going
Speaker 3: through the trauma that these events have brought about, but
Speaker 3: also being told that their experience doesn't matter. And I
Speaker 3: just want to clarify something I said earlier. I probably
Speaker 3: used the curriculum a little too loosely. Maxag in his
Speaker 3: testimony over and over sort of emphasize that this wasn't curriculum.
Speaker 3: These are resources for teachers to reach for. But I
Speaker 3: think ultimately the impact of it, if teachers are using
Speaker 3: these resources to inform their teaching in the classroom, it is.
Speaker 3: But I think we need to be very laser focused
Speaker 3: on the experience that doctor mar Halburn has been studying
Speaker 3: of Jewish and Israeli students already. When you're talking about
Speaker 3: this kind of institutionalization of some of that hate, like
Speaker 3: it's not enough what we're experiencing already, but bringing a
Speaker 3: perspective to teachers and providing a very one sided perspective,
Speaker 3: and even a hateful perspective that is only going to
Speaker 3: further inflame and compound the pain and the suffering and
Speaker 3: the experience of Jewish students. And that's not to say
Speaker 3: we don't also very much care about the experience of
Speaker 3: Palestinian students, but to suggest that somehow, you know, providing
Speaker 3: both sides of this narrative, if one was going to
Speaker 3: teach it in K through twelve, requires that you have
Speaker 3: this sort of hateful anti Israel and even anti Jewish
Speaker 3: narrative is frankly offenses. It shouldn't be pain from both.
Speaker 7: And what's interesting, Yeah, So when I gave the testimony,
Speaker 7: I was talking about traumatic invalidation, and traumatic validation is
Speaker 7: a known term from trauma research when someone is denying
Speaker 7: your thoughts or your emotion, basically saying your experience doesn't
Speaker 7: matter or it actually didn't happen. And I gave a
Speaker 7: whole testimony about how Jewish people since October seventh meet
Speaker 7: every one of the criteria, and we talked about trauma.
Speaker 7: This is not something I invented. Physiologically, Jewish students and
Speaker 7: Israeli students cannot function at school today because they're constantly
Speaker 7: worrying about teacher putting them down and keeps bulling them.
Speaker 7: And right after my testimony, someone from Jewish Voice for
Speaker 7: Peace or by the way, sitting right behind me. There's
Speaker 7: two rolls behind me when I testimony, where people with
Speaker 7: kafias and with Palestine flags. And she came to me
Speaker 7: and said, oh, this is exactly what the Palestinian students
Speaker 7: are feeling. And yes, I have no doubt there's some
Speaker 7: Palestinian students are also feeling this way, but this is
Speaker 7: exactly traumatic in validation. We are in a talking about
Speaker 7: anti Semitism. This is combating anti simsm K to twelve
Speaker 7: and she bringing up Palestinians on the other side. And
Speaker 7: I think what we're seeing in society today that if
Speaker 7: we talk about Jewish students, there's no pace for that.
Speaker 7: We're being told that no, no, no, you need to
Speaker 7: wait because other people are suffering and they're assuming we
Speaker 7: don't care. We do care, but right now Jewish life matters,
Speaker 7: and this focus needs to be on Jewish lives.
Speaker 2: We agree. I appreciate you taking the time to call.
Speaker 2: I got a bunch of other calls I want to
Speaker 2: try to get to as we continue along, yours was
Speaker 2: invaluable testimony for us to hear tonight, and I thank
Speaker 2: you so much for your professional expertise.
Speaker 7: Thank you for you, Tom, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome. Let me go next to Arno in Wisconsin.
Speaker 5: Arnot, I'm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Speaker 2: All right, I'm welcome Tonight's. I don't know if you've
Speaker 2: ever called before, but if this is your first time, welcome.
Speaker 5: I haven't. I'm actually a colleague of Mary's. I work
Speaker 5: at Parents for Peace as well. I'm a peer ex specialist,
Speaker 5: and that means that I help young people get out
Speaker 5: of hate groups and I coach their families to create
Speaker 5: environments that are more conducive to their healing and recovery.
Speaker 5: All of the work that I do is based in
Speaker 5: my own experience as a former white nationalist. I was
Speaker 5: a neo Nazi skinhead from nineteen eighty seven to nineteen
Speaker 5: ninety four. I was very influential at that time. I
Speaker 5: was the lead vocalist of a hate metal band that
Speaker 5: was very popular. And the reason I'm calling is because
Speaker 5: I'm incredibly concerned about this content that the MTA is
Speaker 5: disseminating the teachers, because in many cases it is word
Speaker 5: for word, the exact same anti semitic tropes we used
Speaker 5: as white nationalists in the late eighties and early nineties,
Speaker 5: and the same anti Semitic tropes that white nationalists today use.
Speaker 5: We called the United States government the Zionist occupational government.
Speaker 5: We accused Jews of genocide, we accused Jews of colonization.
Speaker 5: Anytime we committed acts of violence against Jews or anybody else,
Speaker 5: we said, when land is occupied, violence is justified. So
Speaker 5: I think it's very important that people know that this
Speaker 5: content that the MTA is seminating the teachers, and like
Speaker 5: you said, whether it's called curriculum or not, it's eventually
Speaker 5: going to filter down to students, is the exact same hatred,
Speaker 5: word for word that white nationalistness spouse. And this is
Speaker 5: further proved by David Duke endorsing Jill Stein for president
Speaker 5: last year. Is to have one of the most notorious
Speaker 5: Kukux Plan members in the United States history who ditch
Speaker 5: Donald Trump because he doesn't hate Israel enough. So anti
Speaker 5: Semitism is the connective tissue of all violent extremism, and
Speaker 5: everyone needs to know that it's not just Jews who
Speaker 5: suffer when anti Semitism takes hold in the society. When
Speaker 5: anti Semitism is front and center as it is today,
Speaker 5: anti black racism will be aggravated and exacerbated, Anti LGBT
Speaker 5: violence will be exaggerated and exacerbated, and honestly, for your
Speaker 5: plain old white person who doesn't isn't on board with
Speaker 5: the anti semitism, it'll be a target as well. So
Speaker 5: this is something that everyone needs to be very concerned about,
Speaker 5: and I hope that the Massachusetts legislature is able to
Speaker 5: take some tangible action to stop the MTA from this
Speaker 5: anti Semitic crusade that they're on.
Speaker 2: Well, the MTA is a very powerful group, one hundred
Speaker 2: and seventeen thousand members here in Massachusetts are no They
Speaker 2: were able to successfully eradicate the requirement of what we
Speaker 2: call the MCAST graduation requirement. You had to pass a
Speaker 2: relatively easy test in the tenth grade, and they're looking
Speaker 2: to earn the right to strike. Here in Massachusetts, police,
Speaker 2: fire and public public servants like teachers are not allowed
Speaker 2: to strike. First of all, thank you for calling. I'd
Speaker 2: love to have you leave your number with my producer
Speaker 2: and maybe I could have you on the show as
Speaker 2: a guest at some point. Congratulations for getting out from
Speaker 2: getting out from that suit or that you found yourself
Speaker 2: in for so many years of white nationalism. And if
Speaker 2: you'd leave your number in name with my producer Rob,
Speaker 2: I would appreciate it immensely.
Speaker 5: I'm happy to do that, Dan, and I always say,
Speaker 5: nobody is happier about it than I am. And that's
Speaker 5: why we do this work, because it's a miserable place
Speaker 5: to be mired and hatred for any group of people,
Speaker 5: and I want to demonstrate there's a better way for
Speaker 5: people to live their lives.
Speaker 2: As a TV reporter around that time, back in the
Speaker 2: early nineties, I believe there was an active group of
Speaker 2: skinheads in Salem, Massachusetts, what we call the Wich City
Speaker 2: up here, and my camera man at the time, a
Speaker 2: guy named Dan Marauda, and I went up and confronted
Speaker 2: them on their own territory. And once once they were confronted,
Speaker 2: they kind of backed down. You know, we were we
Speaker 2: were lucky, but I just felt, hey, let's let's out
Speaker 2: of you know when sunlight's the greatest disinfectant. Oh no,
Speaker 2: stay there, give your information to Rob and we'll continue
Speaker 2: our conversation with my guests. Right after this quick break.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Anna, congratulations Jeff, are you going to say
Speaker 2: something well, I.
Speaker 4: Wasn't accept to congratulate him, and to note that, you know,
Speaker 4: some of these folks on campuses and the MTA, I
Speaker 4: hope you know. We'll look in the mirror and listen
Speaker 4: to what this caller, remarkable caller said, most remarkable, remarkable stuff.
Speaker 2: We'll take a break. We'll be right back on Night's
Speaker 2: Side with my guest Jeff Robins and Sarah Colebke. Sarah's
Speaker 2: the death current deputy director of the New England Anti
Speaker 2: Defamation League for many years, Jeff was the director of
Speaker 2: the Anti Defamation League here in New England. Back on
Speaker 2: night Side right after this.
Speaker 1: Now back to Dan Ray live from the Window World
Speaker 1: nights Side Studios on WBZ News Radio.
Speaker 2: Let's get back to phone calls here. We have a
Speaker 2: few minutes left in this hour and we'll get to
Speaker 2: phone calls right away. We're talking about anti Semitism and
Speaker 2: rearing its ugly head within the Massachusetts Teachers Union, Allegedly.
Speaker 2: Michelle is in Boston. Michelle next on Nightside with Jeff
Speaker 2: Robbins and Sarah Colet Go right ahead.
Speaker 8: Michelle, Hi, I'm part of the Massachusetts Educators Against Anti Semitism,
Speaker 8: and our group has been trying to deal with contacting
Speaker 8: the MTA in numerous ways by attending their board meetings,
Speaker 8: making public comments, writing emails to them, and Max's attitude
Speaker 8: has sort of been the same as you saw in
Speaker 8: the hearing. They ignored us. We were subjected to gas
Speaker 8: lighting at this. Two days prior to the hearing, the
Speaker 8: board had an opportunity to take down the website. One
Speaker 8: of their board members put up a resolution to remove
Speaker 8: the resources, and that was after one of the four
Speaker 8: Jewish teachers who came to speak up showed images images
Speaker 8: with the Jewish star, one was the one with a snake,
Speaker 8: one was the one with said f off Zionis. So
Speaker 8: they saw three of those images and the board voted
Speaker 8: to keep those images plus all of the other controversial
Speaker 8: resources on their website. So we're kind of surprised that
Speaker 8: Max didn't discuss that also at the hearing and he
Speaker 8: couldn't admit that those resources are anti Semitic.
Speaker 2: Wow, are you a teacher yourself, Michelle, Yes, I'm a teacher,
Speaker 2: and uh is when is is? This is this guy
Speaker 2: the elected leader of the union.
Speaker 8: That unfortunately at this time, he's really not representing educators
Speaker 8: in their best light. Educators right now should be focused
Speaker 8: on teaching our students and loving all of our students,
Speaker 8: treating everybody equally and giving respect to all students regardless
Speaker 8: of their religious or national origin. And right now what
Speaker 8: the MTA is promoting is discrimination against Jewish students. We
Speaker 8: have been advocating for these resources to be taken down.
Speaker 8: The MTA has no expertise in the Middle East, so
Speaker 8: why would they put up any kind of curriculum resources
Speaker 8: when they have never done any kind of venture ever.
Speaker 2: Michelle, thank you so much for calling. I have another
Speaker 2: call I'd like to get to, but jeff O'sarah. Quick
Speaker 2: comment from Michelle in her courage of not only calling
Speaker 2: but standing up for what is right.
Speaker 4: Wait you can hear it in her voice, and congratulations
Speaker 4: to her and to her colleagues. This is a tough
Speaker 4: fight with an adversary. Unfortunately, they shouldn't be an adversary
Speaker 4: with a lot of resources. And just imagine putting our
Speaker 4: kids in the hands of people as arrogant as this fellow.
Speaker 4: Age and some of his colleagues are absolutely nice.
Speaker 6: I'm so impressed with these Jewish teachers, and I would
Speaker 6: just say, like this is some of us are doing
Speaker 6: this advocacy work for our job, but these teachers are
Speaker 6: working so hard to do their regular job and then
Speaker 6: unfortunately this additional job of fighting for their own.
Speaker 3: Rights and the rights of Jewish students has been thrust
Speaker 3: upon them, and it is not fair and it should
Speaker 3: not be that way.
Speaker 2: Michelle, thank you so much for your courage. Please continue
Speaker 2: to listen to Night's side. We cover this topic on
Speaker 2: a fairly regular basis, and if there's anything we can
Speaker 2: do to help you in your efforts, let me know.
Speaker 8: Okay, thank you very much.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome. Let me try to get one more
Speaker 2: caller in here. Tom and Rochester. Tom, you're late and
Speaker 2: we're tight on time.
Speaker 9: Go right ahead, I'll I'll try to be quick. Man.
Speaker 9: My observation was locally here, my election was for the
Speaker 9: teachers for the Educational Board of Education. I'm why do
Speaker 9: I say it?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 9: The local election for the for the for that was
Speaker 9: three times as much spent on the state representative race.
Speaker 9: So in other words, it's really important who people elect
Speaker 9: to the school board, and they spent a lot of
Speaker 9: money doing it. And when I'm saying now, well, very
Speaker 9: interesting as an observer. You know who Milton Khan was
Speaker 9: your guest with me, Just Milton Khan, the A d L.
Speaker 9: He was my father's mentor. My father we're Gentiles, and
Speaker 9: my father fought World War two and Milton Khan was
Speaker 9: his mentor. And Milton Khan was very big in the
Speaker 9: A d L. He's gotta chaired brandice. I grew up
Speaker 9: a prose im and what's going on right now is crazy.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Tom, thank you very much for that, for that comment,
Speaker 2: I really do appreciate it. Thank you, sir, appreciate it.
Speaker 2: To Jeff and to Sarah, thank you for your time tonight.
Speaker 2: I'm going to try to keep this conversation going into
Speaker 2: the next hour. I don't know how much response we
Speaker 2: will get to it, but I want to continue it.
Speaker 2: Callers on the line, stay there. We'll pick it up
Speaker 2: on the other side of the ten o'clock news. But
Speaker 2: to Jeff Robins and Sarah kob please keep up your fight.
Speaker 2: We have your back, I hope you know.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much, damn, thank you so very much.
Speaker 4: Once again, you're both very welcome.
Speaker 2: For those of you in the line, stay there. I'd
Speaker 2: like to talk about this on the other side because
Speaker 2: I think it's so important coming back right after the
Speaker 2: ten on night side