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Go VIP. This weekend is WWW SummerSlam. Very early in
August ten years ago, WWE's pay per view around this
time was the Battleground pay per View on July twenty fourth,
twenty sixteen, and on today's PW Torch Daily Cast were
bringing you back ten years to the live postgame show
with Greg Parks and James Caldwell reacting to that event
right after it concluded with live callers, plus add something
the draft and talk leading into WWE's big brand split.
This event headlined by a Battle of Shield members just
like we'll see Sunday Night between Seth and Roman Rains.
This is Dean Ambrose, Roman Rains and Seth Rollins for
the WWE title. Also, Big Cast, who's making his return,
Took teamed with Enzo and John Cena. Kind of a
weird three sum but kind of makes sense in some
ways too when you look back against aj Styles in
the Club, Luke Gallows and Carl Anderson. Also Darren Young
with Bob Backland that was so weird against the Miz
for the Intercontinental title. Becky Lynch against Natalia, Kevin Owens
and Sammy Zain in one of their classics. Also Zach
Ryder against Rusev. Some familiar names here with Russev back
on the roster. Also, plus Bailey and Sasha Banks against
Charlotte and Dana Brook, The White Family against New Day,
all three members the usso's against Brazoco in a pre
show match. All that analyzed and covered here on the
post show. Let's get to it. This originally live streamed
on July twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, and it is today's
best of PW Torch Daily Cast for Friday, July thirty first,
twenty twenty six Here.
Speaker 2: We go, we O.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the PW Torch Live Cast. I am Wade Keller,
editor and publisher of the Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter and
PW torch dot Com, and it is Friday July fifteenth,
two thousand and eleven, and we've got a lot to
talk about. We are on the eve eve of money
in the Bank on Sunday Night, one of the more
anticipated WWE pay per views since probably WrestleMania, with a
big cmpunk John Cena Showdown. I think the bloom off
the roads a little bit with the TV ratings shattering
the perception that the cm punk angle is one of
the hottest angles in years. The ratings show that it
burned very intensely with an Internet that it was catered to,
but it did not capture the imagination of the vast
mainstream audience at WWE goes after the empirical evidence is
in and it's not you know, it's anecdotal in the
sense that it's still possible they could poper rating on Monday.
But the fact is is the rating was down way
more on Monday than typical up against the home Run
Derby on ESPN and the Major League Baseball All Star
Game ratings were down this year the next night, which
you know, would indicate that WWE, if they had a
real solid audience and a hot angle that on a
massive scale cared a lot about the cmpunk angle. And
this next chapter in it it's not like there was
a ton of passion for the All Star All Star
Game this year, so that you'd think would bleed over
into the home run derby the night before. But nevertheless,
also last night's TNA Impact, Sting regains the TNA World
Heavyweight title from mister Anderson in the main event, a
two hour theme of evil Clown, the Sting's Evil Clown
Army attacking and more one by one by one and
clearing the deck for Staying to beat mister Anderson without
excessive interference from Immortal. I thought it was kind of curious,
and it's one thing Bruce Mitchell and I, by the way,
for VIP members, did a one hour review of last
night's Impact, really went in depth on this big addition
because it's right after a pay per view and it
continues to bound for glory hype and it really is
a big shift in gears with the world title change.
And we did one hour breaking down the show and
posted that earlier today for VIP members. One point I
did not bring up in that one hour discussion with
Bruce is that somebody asked aj Styles after he attacked
and beat down Gunner in the parking lot somebody said,
where's Bully Ray, and AJ styles said that's been taken
care of something to that effect, But it turned out
it wasn't. Billy Ray was hiding in the off Immortal's
office and was not beaten down by the evil clowns,
and thus was I can't believe I'm saying this, and
was thus free to at least attempt to interfere on
behalf of mister Anderson. So I don't know if that
was a storytelling glitch or if that's foreshadowing that AJ
was like was giving false assurances to his friends that
they had taken care of Billy Ray, but in reality,
you know, he wasn't taking care of it. I don't know,
could be reading too much into it, but it was
one kind of dangling, unexplained thing. If somebody listening to
the show has an answer for that, and it can
explain what AJ meant by that, if you watched the
show last night, I'd definitely be interested in hearing that.
So that lays on the table some subjects that we
can talk about. We're gonna I'm gonna be joined in
ten fifteen twenty minutes by John Pierre Marini. He's not
able to join us due to other commitments at the
very top of today's show, But he'll be joining us
if you don't know who he is and you're a
new listener. He is a lately been a weekly contributor
as a co host on the show here. He is
a former WWE rider from two thousand and nine and
twenty ten, almost all of both of those years. He
spent nearly two years in WWE, including working the last
two Wrestling Mania. Is working firsthand, one on one with
Sam Punk and John Cena over the years and provides
unique insight and analysis from his experience behind the scenes.
So he's going to be joining us in like I said,
ten to fifteen minutes, as soon as he's able to
call in. So I definitely encourage everybody to who's interesting
in calling and talking about that to get your questions ready.
If you are on hold and you very specifically have
a question for John Piermarini, I recommend you hang up
and just call back once he's on because I'm going
to start taking phone calls and we literally have I
don't need to say literally, we got nine people on
hold wanting to talk right now, So it's a record
number of people in mine here on a Friday. If
your questions for John Piermarini, go ahead and call back
once he gets on. That way, we don't have to
go through people not wanting to give a general question
or talk to me, because I want to get a
few phone calls in before John joins us. John will
be staying around after the bottom of the hour, I believe.
I didn't double check the schedule, but I think he
can stay around for a few minutes, so we may
for live for archive listeners, we may go longer than
an hour, and then we'll do some portion afterwards. Also,
that's VIP exclusive where VIP members have a chance to
listen to some content that is exclusive for VIP members.
If you're interested in a pw Torch VIP membership, I'm
planning to run a special this weekend. It's a big
weekend with money in the bank and it's been a
while since we did that. I haven't decided what is
gonna be yet, but this weekend or really tonight, as
soon as the show is over, I'll probably be posting
something on pw torch dot com. So if you're listening
to us live or on delay on iTunes or at blog,
talk radio or elsewhere, and you're interested in jumping on board,
it's a great time to jump on board. We're gonna
have part seven of the Diamond Dallas Page Torch Talk
posted another full hour with Dallas Page with great in
depth talk about his career making I mean, it was
really the biggest moment of his career in terms of
elevating him against Rain Savage. And this installment parts seven
and this is the seventh hour of this Torch Talk,
and all seven hours are available if you become a
VIP member right now. And it's a great torch talk
marching through behind the scenes Dallas Page, who was friends
with Eric Bischoff behind the scenes during ww's pre Nitro
era and got to see all the follies of that era,
and he talks about that in depth, and then also
the rise of Nitro and the integral part of it
that he was and great stories about people he helped,
people who helped him, and the doubters and a lot
of good stuff. And by the way, also as a
VP member, not only can you immediately upon becoming a
VIP member download those seven installments of the Dallas Page
Torch Talk, and also We've got more coming up and
I'll be doing more sessions with him, but we're also
transcribing it in the PW Torch newsletter every week. Two
different editions of the PW Torch Newsletter went out this week.
We just posted the second sixteen page issue earlier today
in PDF format. It's great to read on an iPad.
I'm a new iPad on and have been enjoying that.
We also put up back issues from five, ten and
twenty years ago that are also in PDF format. Their
computer screen friendly, laptop friendly, but a specially you can
print them, but they're great on the iPad too. You
get instant access as a VIP member to our archives
with hundreds and hundreds of back issues dating back to
the late eighties, and we put up two or three
three new ones typically every single week from five, ten
and twenty years ago. Some pretty cool stuff to look
back on, especially going back twenty years, it's pretty crazy.
So anyway, we'll we'll have a special on the VIP
membership and so I encourage you to check out PW
torch dot com. It'll be at the top of the
main listing and you can see what that special is.
So I'm sure. Well, what I'll do is I'll just
put together a pretty big discount on signing up for
one month, and so you'll be able to get in
the door cheaper than our normal rate of ten dollars
for a month, and it'll just be this weekend that
we're running it, so you're gonna want to jump on
that offer. But that will also include immediate access to
our post Destination X pay per view roundtable that Bruce Mitchell,
Pat McNeil and I recorded last Sunday night, the one
hour post Raw Keller Hotline that Bruce Mitchell joined me
for where we broke down the pros and cons and
there were good and bad on Monday's show, big edition
of Raw with those disappointing ratings, one hour of analysis
with Bruce Mitchell and me, and then also one hour
of Bruce Mitchell and me analyzing impact last night, and
also our post Money in the Bank roundtable with Bruce
Patt and myself or Bruce Patt and me discussing that
pay per view on Sunday night right afterwards, and we'll
have that available to VIP members on Sunday night. One
programming note, even if you don't go VIP this weekend,
and like I said, it's great week to go because
we're gonna give a big discount to jump on board
and tries for a month, but everybody gets a free
listen to the live cast a special edition of it
on Sunday night after Money in the Bank. James Caldell
and Greg Parks will be hosting that and taking her
calls live after Money in the Bank. I believe James
is starting at a half hour after the pay per
view NDS, but double check at blogtalk radio dot com
to look at future show schedules and you can double
check that it'll leave it starting at eleven thirty Eastern.
So we don't do it after every pay per view,
but this one's a big one. And well, Bruce Mitchell,
Pat McNeil and I are recording the VIP audio show
that we'll post Sunday night. James and Greg will be
hosting the PW Torch live cast live. All right, With
all of that said and out of the way, like
I said, John Permerini will be joining us very soon
here on the show. And I am, by the way,
going to open the chat room for those of you
who are disappointed that I did not already apologize for that.
So the chatroom should be launched in about three seconds,
so you can jump on in and participate live in
a discussion with other listeners. Now, what I want to
do is jump on the phone lines and let's if
who can get some phone calls in on curt events
before John Permerini joins us, and we'll go ahead and
begin with area code nine one four. Thanks for holding.
Please stay your name and where you're from.
Speaker 4: How's it going?
Speaker 5: This is Johnny from New York.
Speaker 3: Hey, Johnny from New York. What's on your mind?
Speaker 5: I just read a Patrick Gay's preview room predictions for
money in the bank and his care for the Punk match.
It was pretty out there's something I don't think would
ever happen, but it would definitely be a dream. I
don't know if you got a chance to read it,
but basically it was all about like next has taken
over and the Ring of Honor wrestlers coming out and
help them punk and punk and escape and within the championship,
and then he kind of went into the aftermath Monday
night and whatnot. You what do you think the chances
of anything like that even happening? And what do you
think realistically what actually happen to Sunday in the main event.
Speaker 3: Honestly, I'm not ruling out much of anything, and I
didn't read Pat's column. He just put it up put
twenty minutes ago and I didn't have a chance to
read it yet. But a scenario like that, I mean,
I wouldn't rule it out. You know, Pat's calls these
predictions in quote marks, but in a way it's kind
of like what he might do. In fact, he even
says at the beginning and the disclaimer projections are based
on what the columnist would do if he were booking
this event instead of Bully McMahon, the idiot daughter, the
dufist son in law in their respective ass kissers as
that in as Pat put it. So you know, it
has kind of fantasy booking to a degree, or suggestive booking,
I guess would be another way to put it. But
I think we're gonna see, and I don't know that
it's even with the TV ratings on Monday, I'm not
sure that they're gonna change course. Even though the ratings
were very disappointing, and I think, you know, a lesson,
it was a learning moment for all of us who
got excited about the punk promos. But you know, James
Caldell took some heat forward immediately when he reported in
his Raw report that you know, this punk promot's good,
you know when it caters to a certain slice of
the audience. But is it gonna go over the heads
of a lot of mainstream fans and are they going
to feel kind left out or lost? And so far
the ratings indicate there might be something to that. So
I think the original plan all along if I had
to guess, and I'm not confident in this, but if
I'm cornered into guessing, I think John Cen is gonna
be Cea on Punk, and I think he's gonna be
in Clean, and I think Punk's gonna go away. And
I think on Monday, the gears are gonna shift entire
or the storylines are gonna shift entirely to Summer Slam
one month from now, on August fourteenth, and they're gonna
shift to something else. And it's probably gonna be something
I having to do with the money in the bank,
winner or an angle I have to pay per view,
or on rob that sets up you know, perhaps Alberto
del Rio, whether he wins or loses money in the bank.
He won that number one contender match and it got
taken from him when Sam Punk got reinstated. I could
see del Rio claiming I'm the number one contender in
the gm agreen, and it just shifts right into more
traditional hype. I think the two point nine rating is
going to scare Vince a little bit, especially coming off
to two point four rating the week before. Yes, it
was fourth of July, but I think they're gonna be
a little scared about doing insider angles. I don't think
it's Vince's nature to want to make insider references like this.
I think he got talkeed into it, and I think
now he's going to go conservative and go back to
a more traditional formula. So no, I don't think there's
going to be a major invasion angle. And I think
if there is a major invasion angle with Seampunk, it'll
happen later after he takes some time off. I genuinely
believe he's going to take some time off after this show.
The only out is there's an angle where he wrestles
also at SummerSlam, but again with the rating being so low,
this being outside of Vince's comfort zone. I could see
I Vince had entertained that idea. I could see him
even canceling it and saying, punk just go away for
three to six months. Let's plan be later.
Speaker 1: Did you know that you can enjoy commercial free versions
of all of your favorite weight color podcasts and pw
torch daily casts on Spotify. Just go to patreon dot
com search pw Torch and subscribe to a VIP membership tier.
You get a seven day free trial by the way
to kick the tires a bit and see if you
like the service, and then sync it with Spotify and
you can listen to commercial free versions of our free
shows like the Waykeller post shows, the Weightkeller podcast, Flagship,
our flashbacks, and also the pw Torch daily cast lineup. Again,
all commercial free and nice streamline listening experience. But with
third tier membership you can also unlock all the VIP podcasts,
including Everything with Rich and Wade, to Fix with Todd
Martin that I host with Todd every week, the Wadkeller
news bulletins, post pay per view roundtables, and an array
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Check out the lineup. Go to Patreon and search PW
Torch and subscribe and sync it up with Spotify or
stay within the Patreon ecosystem. Either way works. Go to
Patreon and start your seven day free trial, Johnny.
Speaker 3: Anything else that sounds a little good?
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, something else real quick About Zach Ryder, I
think that, uh, what are you think gonna happen with him?
Because I mean I've been watching out Superstars recently, even
on his YouTube videos, and they're kind of you can
tell w W's going more and more into like what
he's doing on YouTube, like mentioning on Superstars about the
Internet Championship why' not? And that little team that he
had with NeXT's a couple of weeks ago. Do you
think actually has plans for him to Zach Ryder?
Speaker 3: Not really. I mean I don't think. I don't think
that they're going to do a ton with him. I
think they see him as a Santino Morella level guy,
and Santino's their comedy relief right now on Raw. You
know if Ed Cosky, the new lead writer for SmackDown,
has a thing for Zach and says, yeah, I'd like
to see I want some comedy on my show and
let's bring him on a SmackDown and start featuring him.
I know, I wouldn't rule it out, but I don't
think they see him as a main event guy. I
think they see him as a goof. And I think
there's also a little bit of a belief that they
choose who they push. Wrestlers don't choose themselves to be pushed,
and when the Internet chooses somebody, I think there's some
resistance within the WWE machinery to that. So I'm a
I don't think even with Super Superstars, happens in kind
of a vacuum, you know. I don't know that that
there's gonna be a big you know that that getting
mentioned on Superstars is an indication that Physic Man's like, yeah,
let's do something big with this guy. At the same time,
he's persistent ther you know, people keep talking about him
and bringing signs. So I wouldn't roll it out. I
just haven't seen anything that indicates it's it's going to
be fast tracked anyway. Johnny, thanks for you a call.
We're gonna keep roll through college here because we've got
so many people on hold for a Friday, and we'll
go to our next call aera code three four seven.
Thanks for holding. Please state to name and where you're from.
Speaker 4: Mother's Christian, New York. I have a hypothetical questions. Did
Terry delay is to pass away tomorrow to a heart attack?
Do you see an affecting debus business? Or how maystream
the mainstream media would do them think he's been so
far loose in the company and say they in the
nineteen eighties and he's always been up about in terms
of his drug use back in the day. You see
it forty gotta vis.
Speaker 3: Anyway, you know, I think coming on the heels, since
it was a hypothetical question, I will give you a
hypothetical answer, Chris. I think if he did, if he
died and Randy Savage died of heart related problems, I
think that one two punch within a month or so
of one another could lead to a bit of a
media storm. Holkogan is a big enough name and it
could put a you know, a real negative view on
the industry. Hogan. Holk isn't in his thirties. He's not
even in his early forties, so there's a level of well,
he was older, he lived, you know, he lived, you know,
a rough life put himself through a lot, so I
could see possibly, you know, I could see possibly something
like that. It's hard, you know, it's hard to imagine
what it would take to be bigger than what happened
with Chris ben Wat. You know, a guy in his thirties.
He killed his wife, he killed his son, he killed himself.
It isn't that long after Addy Guerrero has has has
there been enough distance between really high profile scandals. I
don't know, you know, people might connect the outs and
go Savage Hogan. I remember them. It's a big deal.
I think it'd be a pretty big deal. I don't know,
and it would It would reflect on WWE because WWE
is is pro wrestling to most people, and even if
Hulk cogan' is not in WWE, people who don't watch
wrestling think think of Hulkogan and WWE as largely one
and the same. All right, our phone numbers here are six, four, six, seven, eight,
two eight. You can call in and join the other.
God about eight people on hold right now who we
haven't gotten to yet, and so you can be nine
in line. We should be joined soon by John Piermarini,
former WWE creative team member on the Raw Team under
Brian Gowertz, but also worked with SmackDown the SmackDown Crew
at times, and he'll be joining us for some analysis
of things in wrestling this week. Let's go to our
next call, area code two eight one. Thanks for calling.
Please state your name and where you're from.
Speaker 6: Anyway, Jan doing them doing good?
Speaker 3: Jay? How you doing?
Speaker 6: I'm okay? Just to kind of build up on what
I was saying yesterday about the whole rock scene and things.
You know, Sine is really showing his true post with
this Rock thing. It's insane jealousy. And these guys that
are trying to defend johnsena like seem Punster and Jordan's
you know, you know, they look like a old really
because they're talking all this garbage about the Rock. Rock
didn't have to come back. He doesn't over anything. They
weren't even in the company when Rock was there, like
he said, blazing the trail and selling out arenas. You know,
it's a business and they're criticizing him for his passion
and you know, well there, I just feel that there
are other things they could have criticized, like Triple A's
main eventing like eight out of ten WrestleManias. He was
the one taking WrestleMania paydays from I mean, what was
Rock really doing from them? You know that that's just
my opinion, and they have real issues like the insurance.
You know, No, Sena is always willing to stand it.
He'll never stand against him or stand up for the
people that he works with. Have you noticed.
Speaker 3: That that that Sena doesn't stand up for who say
that again?
Speaker 7: For uh, just his fellow wrestlers.
Speaker 6: Like he's in a tradition where you can say, hey,
you know I about some health insurance?
Speaker 3: Right, oh right, right, yeah, oh definitely. You know, John
Cena is no different than than other people. Vincick mannis
chosen to push to the top over the years, and
I think anybody who shows the type of tendency to
rock the boat, uh you know, gets pushed down a
little bit. I mean, Jesse Ventura went that direction a
little bit and it probably hurt him and his standing
with Vincent Man to a certain degree, although he wasn't
the top guy and it didn't go it didn't go
real far. Jim Brunzell talked about that in a torch
talk that I did with him years ago about how uh,
you know how he had looked into that and talked
to lawds and that type of thing. But the thing
is is, when you're at the very top and you're
making millions of dollars a year, do you really want
to give this amount of reason to dump you and
go with somebody else. And that's the problem. When you
get to the top, you start you kind of start
self editing, your critical thinking about the way the promotion operates,
and you think, hey, I worked hard, I deserve this.
I'm going to get what I can get, and everybody
else has the same chance to work as hard as
I do and be as good as I am and
get what I have. And I'm certainly not worried. If
you're John Cena, he's thinking, I'm not worried about health insurance.
I'm not worried about retirement. I'm making great money. It's
my job to save my money. So yeah, I mean, no,
it's not just John Cena. The system is rigged in
the sense that when you're making that kind of big money,
you don't want to put it at risk. As for
the whole Scena Rock thing, I mean, it's the cover
story in the new edition of the People Torch Newsletter
issue one, two and twelve that we just put up,
and my cover story is on the latest back and
forth between Scene and Rock. Bruce Mitchell also wrote a column,
a really good column on this that's exclusive for VIP
members today, on the Scena and Rock back and forth.
And I think it's not I'm not picking sides. I
think they're both looking bad. I think they've lost sight
of what the goal is. I think John Cena isn't
a bad spot because he's think I think John Cena
knows that Rock has a thin skin, that he's sensitive
to criticism. I think there's a lot more going on
behind the scenes than we'll ever know, and that will
ever be said, and people can read into some of
the things that are being said and come up with
their own speculation and draw their own conclusions. But there
are games, there's mind games going on, there's bodies that
are buried, they know things about each other. There, there's
so much. They've both been in the same spot, and
Sena is needling Rock and he knows Rock can't back out. Now,
you know, Rock can't back out of the match, so
Scena can say almost anything he wants. And Seena's a
little better, not than Rock, but I think he's better
than Rock expected him to be at at battling him
in these back and forth promos, will call them even
though I think they're both trying to get under under
each other's skin and score points with their fan bases.
I think in their mind they're rationalizing it as this
is helping build up our match because there's real animosity,
and I think there is legitimate animosity between them at
this point. I think it's clear Rock posting an eleven minute,
you know, point by point dressing down of John Cena
and really I mean going after him hard and Sena
then going after Rock cart I don't think any of
them have I mean Rock has a good point. He
says no one's Warren gene short since ninety two. I
mean that's exaggerating a little bit, but you know, he's
picking on things. But Seena has been self deprecating about that.
Rock hasn't been particularly self deprecating. He's been I think
somewhat defensive and I think come on a little too strong,
a little too heavy handed, and some of his comebacks
where the sensi humor isn't there, and he's coming across
as if maybe he you know, Sina has gotten under
his skin. Rock is right, Rock paved the way. I
don't like that term, but because I think it's used
by old wrestlers to hang on for too long. But
there's some truth to it, and that Rock did work
full time on the road for five plus years and
John Cena's worked on the road for longer than that.
But had John Cena gotten the same movie offers that
Rock has gotten, Sena would be gone too, you know.
I mean, Sena has left full time on the road
for WWE to shoot movies, and he didn't leave entirely,
but that's because the movies he was doing weren't paying
millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars like
Rocks were. So I mean, if I'm grading this on
debate points, Rock is winning. But if I'm grading it
on who's getting under whose skin and who's showing more
defensive tendencies, well Rock is losing. Rock is coming across
as more defensive. And I've had enough of the gay stuff,
you know, I mean, Rock insinuating making jokes about John Cena,
you know, having sex with guys in college, you know,
oral sex with guys in college as part of his
eleven minute rant, you know, and then Sena coming back
and going, oh, I wonder if Glad's gonna come after Rock,
which I don't think it made either of them look
good because it made it look like Sena wasn't really regretful.
He thinks it should all be fair game. And it's like,
you know, the fourth grader in classic goals, but teacher,
he did it first, or he did it too, and
as if that means you're not guilty. So the whole thing,
I think it's just been unbecoming of their stature for
both of them. I think again, it's interesting for me.
I love it gives me something to write about. It
gives us something to talk about. But they should be
talking about wanting to beat each other in the ring,
not undercutting each other's weak points that have nothing to
do with what they're doing there. But anyway, Bruce Mitchell's
got a great column on this. I go in more
depth on it and pull out the highlight quotes in
case you didn't see the video and analyze it myself
in this week's PW Torch newsletter. And as I said,
we'll have a special if you're not a VIP member yet,
it's great time to check it out. Go to PW
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We'll have a special offer and you can immediately download
the PDF copy or read text versions on the VIP
website of all this coverage of scene of rock. Let's
go to our next call and it is area code
five one six. Thanks for holding. Please state your name
and where you're from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Highway. This is AJ from Long Island.
Speaker 3: Hey J good ear for you me. What's going on?
Speaker 7: Good?
Speaker 2: How's it going on? I just want to comment a
little bit on TNA.
Speaker 6: Last night.
Speaker 2: I just had a couple of bullet points. So the
one thing I think, I think TNA should be commended,
you know, for signing Austin Are's whereas I mean, wwe
rejected him from tough Enough. Yeah, you know, I I
know a lot of people give TN a lot of
our time for their roster and signings, but I think,
you know, he is definitely a guy that's charismatic. He
looks like he can be in different divisions. The one
problem I had with him on impact, and this seems
to be a growing trend with TNA, is the Impact
show after a pay per view always seems to be lagging.
I don't know if because they tape it the night
after or something like that, but Austin area is he
should have had a video Titan tron ready when he
came out.
Speaker 7: It has just been a division logo.
Speaker 2: TA needs to do a better job. And this is
one of my other points focusing on their stars, things
like better entrance music, you know, good Titan trons, and
one other thing I noticed that I was looking at
both sites there. I think one of the things that
can really improve TNA is if they trend their roster.
I think they have too many people on guys that
are kind of deadweight, guys like Devon Pope, Shannon Moore,
Scott Steiner and Kia Robbie, these guys that I think
just don't connect and they throw them in there then
they take them out. And looking at ww at RAW,
they have forty four people listed on their roster base,
TNA has sixty two people. I understand they have explosion,
they have different stuff, but I think they do a
poor job focusing on stars, and it seems like the
flow of the show. It almost seems like they have
different producers for every segment. It doesn't seem like the
show flows through. And I really wanted last Night show
to be good, you know, after seeing the reports and
things like that, but it just seems like there's a discourse.
I was hoping after the X Division pay per view
and talk to them sounding more guys, that there would
be a greater focus on it, but I'm just not
sure where they are for that. I really do think
that though, if they trim their roster a little bit
and just focus on guys, having guys connecting with the audience,
like Crimson, like the Time Team Division, I think it
would be a better thing than you know, you get
guys that are thrown into programs and then I don't know,
if it doesn't get the greatest reaction in the world,
then they automatically take them out. I mean, looking from
last year, guys like Jay Lethal, Robbie, these were guys
that were pushed heavily on TV, given a lot of
TV time, and then all of a sudden they know
where to be heard of almost And I think that's
one of the discourses with the with the audience, as
far as the as far as with TNA, and again
it all leads to the main structure of Sure you
know Vince Rusoni spear moved. The booking community needs to
be overhauled for the most part, but I think there
are little changes that they can make that can really
improve the quality of the show that I think that
they're just missing for some odd reason though, and I'm
not sure why that's the case.
Speaker 8: Need an extra dose of positivity in your wrestling podcasts.
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Speaker 3: See you in the Paradise, Yeah, No, I like last
night show a little better than you did, probably, but
I agree with with a lot of your criticism, and
I think in the macro and the big picture, you know,
there's obviously issues that TNA needs to work on. I
thought Austin Arey's coming out my first thought, and I
wrote it in my blog last another my actually report
on impact that I did live during the show. If
you're going to build the part of the X Division revival,
which Bruce Pritchard said in an interview, that they're going,
you know that they're going to do, They're going to
give it a renewed push coming out of Destination X
and Aris is one of your big signs. You needed
to do more to introduce them, you know, or you
didn't need to, but it would have been great if
they did, you know, to just throw them out there
and to have an even Stephens with Shannon Moore, who
is you know, a virtual jobber in that company. That
doesn't make Austin Arey seem like the new hot thing.
And that's one thing that teenage just isn't particularly disciplined about,
is Okay, if we're gonna do this, let's go all
the way and do it right. And they kind of
went halfway. There's good ideas, and we want to executed.
Austin airis. There's good things that they did with them
last night, and and part of Austin ares is just good.
I mean, he just comes across as a guy that
has that that inherent smugness and arrogance about him. And
I liked Alex Shelley the way he played off of him.
I even liked the way Shannon Moore broke down how
he had to cheat to win because I was in control.
But again, there's so many things about the exhivision that
need to be done, and one of them is isolate
them from the heavyweights for you know, for a long time.
Go ahead and you're dying to get in there.
Speaker 2: And just the thing the comments on the on that week, Yeah,
it almost seems like they were teasing areas you know,
because he was getting cheers from the crowd, and if
they want to do a full fledge heir heel turn,
which it looks like they wanted, they should have had
him attack Shelley to really, you know, get the get
the fans to boom because you know that they shared
him from having a great match before of those that
saw it. Another thing I noticed about teenage roster is that,
and I know way you've written about the flut, they
don't have a ton of main event talent guys, but
they have a lot of mid card, upper mid card guys.
It seems like the TV title would be so well used,
and they put so much focus on the impact the
program itself. If you had weekend and week out, it
doesn't even have to be the main event. But if
you have that title defended on a weekly basis with
a credible guy, even someone like Van Dam or someone
Joe or somebody just to give that belt will get
so much more credibility and it would make the show
so much more compelling. I mean, even though the UFC
is obviously real fighting, it's proof in the numbers when
they have cards and pay per views with non title
bouts compared to title bouts, and it's the same thing
with wrestling shows. I would imagine if you have a
title on the line, even if it's scripted, even if
it's pre taped, people will tune in because there's a
title on the line.
Speaker 3: Well, I think there's been diminishing returns AJ on the
value of title matches because there's been too many of them.
There's been too many title changes and too ops. They
just throw them on TV and don't build them up.
But I agree, well, first of all, you make somebody
a main eventor by giving them a main event push
and putting them in main event matches. And I think
one of the defeated statitudes that TNA has had is
we can't create main eventors. And you know, they did
it with Samo Joe to an extent, They've done it
with AJ Styles to an extent. They're trying to do
it Crimson. There's a few other examples, but almost everybody
else that they've ever pushed in a main event spot
was on Nitro or Raw in the early two thousands
or nineteen nineties. And there's this inferiority complex or in incompetence,
or a combination of both that they don't understand in
the time that that you know, since Kurt Angle's been
away from WWE, they've WWE has created a bunch more
stars into the vast majority of wrestling fans. Those are
the main eventors of pro wrestling today, Not Scott stein Er,
not Jeff Jarrett, not a lot of the people that
TNA keeps pushing. They can make Brutus Magnus a main
event star in six months if they decide to do it.
Will he be a successful main eventor and move the
needle on the ratings and buy rates? Well, who knows.
I mean, that's that's a whole other layer. But you
can take people who are mid carters and by definition
turn them into main eventors, and the way to do
that is put them in main events and give them
that main event push. They need to do the same
thing with Austin Ais. I agree about trimming the roster.
I think one of the in this kind of parallels
an article in the PW Torch newsletter that I put
out earlier this week in my Future editorial on revamping SmackDown,
and I suggested that there's a weight division that is
exclusive to SmackDown and that the heavy move over to
raw you need. I think there would be value in
separating the two the X Division and the heavyweights, if
only because I don't trust T and A's discipline to
not treat Shannon more as a job or one week
and then two weeks later have him fight even Steven
with a new hot acquisition Austin Aires, which defines Austin
ares down as at best barely better than a job
or he had to cheat to win to be the
guy who's basically a job or you just can't do that.
Usc went have Jose Aldo on a card, get beat
up by Roy Nelson and then expect to have line
of pay per view with him a month or two later.
That's just that's just not good business. So anyway, that
will that'll wrap up my comment on that. I hear
John Prumerin has joined us. John, how you doing good?
Speaker 2: Wait?
Speaker 9: How you doing man?
Speaker 3: Very good? Good Debby On the show, we've been talking
about a variety of things, the punk scene of stuff.
Christian New York asked us what if Ulkogan died of
heart failure with the wrestling with w W take to blame,
and we talked about the Rock Sina War of Words,
and also last night's T and A impact. I want
to throw a couple questions at you, and then we'll
get back to the phone lines. John, And we're down
about thirty minutes, and we got looks like about eight
or nine people on hold with questions. But real quick,
what's your first reaction to the two point nine rating
on RON Monday, A dreadfully alarmingly low rating for what,
at least the internet community deemed one of the hottest
angles in a long time.
Speaker 9: Wow, I didn't even hear that at two point nine. Huh, yep,
that's well. I mean, I guess it was hot until
people found out that it was a work.
Speaker 3: I guess.
Speaker 7: I don't know.
Speaker 9: That's that's surprising because I would I was actually, for
the first time pretty excited to see what they were
going to do with punk. But I guess just once
people found out, you know, and but you know, wait,
do you know this better? It seemed like the general
mainstream media that did pick up on it felt like
it was a shoot. So I feel like it was
shreated that way. So it's kind of a shock. I
don't I don't really have an opinion as to why
people didn't do him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think that the mainstream attention that was
given to it's probably a little bit overrated. I thought
the same thing with Jeff Jarrett was on ESPN shows
and they chow clips of it, and I was just like,
you know, nothing on ESPN move does any ratings other
than you know, major League Baseball and obviously the NFL
and Sports Center if you're not there. I mean, it's
not nothing, but it's barely something. And you know, I
think this is kind of an opportunity to learn a lesson.
It's it's a it's a moment to reflect on whether
you and I and the people who listen to the
show and call this show, and maybe even some of
the senior not senior as in retirement age, but you
know above WWE's younger target demographic who are in the
mainstream media, who profascinated by that, is that really? Is
that really the market that WWE is going to poperating with?
You know? Or because when I was fourteen, Sampung's promo
wouldn't have done anything for me. I went to know
what he was talking about. It would have been over
my head. There were too many nuances, too many insider references.
I would rather see John Cena, you know, beat up
Alberto de Rio than have some nuanced things. John Cena
doesn't dislike Sampung, but he thinks he's a punk and
he shouldn't have said that. And vinsic Man comes out,
and I don't know who I'm supposed to cheer for boo,
and they're all they're all saying bad things about each
other and about the WWE brand, and I just think
some people's heads were spinning. And I'm just wondering if
this doesn't show that what you and I find a break,
you know, the holy the holy crap moments, a break
from the norm, maybe has a more limited audience. Even
when it's pretty well done. Then it is necessary to
move the needle, and in fact, there might be a
little bit of a turn off factor. And maybe it's
a lesson that you just just get back to getting
heels over who the average mainstream massive audience doesn't like,
and then have your babyface get presented as a good guy,
as a hero, not being cut down by a heel,
not making people think maybe I shouldn't be cheering this
guy because he's a kiss ask de vincic Man. Just
get back to the heroes. Or heroes villains are villains
and go out there and cut promos and have good
matches and you know, get back to the one, the
basics of one on one. Maybe that's what's needed, more
so than some semi shoot comments that I think might
fly over the head of a lot, if not the
majority of fans, even if it gets the small flife
who have seen it all before excited because it's not
familiar to them.
Speaker 9: Yeah, you know, you can bring up a great point
because I feel like something like this would have worked
maybe two years ago, three years ago when they were
starting to lose that that older eighteen an over audience
that went to the UFC, because I think that when
you watch UFC, I mean it was just the last
free card that they had Check Congo versus Pat Barry.
I mean, I don't know if you watch that fight,
but Pat Berry essentially knocked out Check Congo, who for
some reason survived and looked like he was defending himself,
got up and out of nowhere after he was dropped
two more times dropped Pat Barry. Now that is a
holy crap moment. That that's real. And I think when
you get people like us that can watch UFC and
at any second see something like that and go, my
money's going there, or I'll watch this. I think that
it's a little too late to your point. Go okay,
our audience right now are twelve to fifteen, and all
of what Ciampunk just said went over their head. And
you're right, they do want to just see massive villain
gain power and see their hero overcome the villain. And yeah,
maybe it's just too late. Maybe that the people that
saw that, I think that they were intrigued by going,
oh my gosh, see them funk said what and then
found out that it was a work and went okay,
you know, not interested, or to take it a step further.
And we talked about this after the spoilers came out
the week after. Took a lot of the a lot
of the wind out of the sales. Wait in the
sense that you kind of you kind of stripped it
of everything when you had Vincentmann come out with John
Cena turn it into a complete work reinstatum say the
matches on. I think people at that point went all right,
we know what's going to happen now, and until Wue
starts to do something different, if they do shock people
at Money in the Bank and you do have c
them Funk win the title and walk without a contract.
I think now you've got people going, wait, I wasn't
expecting that. Maybe I need to start two because they're
doing something different. If people read the spoilers or hear
about what happens at Money in the Bank, it's John
Cena over with a little help from Rock or somebody else.
I think people are just gonna go not. That's why I'm.
Speaker 3: Done with it. I think one of the fatal flaws
with semi shoots, pseudo shoots, Halsh shoots. You know that
those types of angles is you set and I talked
about this two weeks ago after it first happened. You
set expectations high among fans who are looking for in
craving that feeling that they had when they were first
fans that maybe this was real and maybe it wasn't.
But they become so discerning, so able to figure out
that none of it's real, that when something seems like
maybe it was real, especially when seampunk articulates their own
frustration with maybe outgrowing the product a little bit, or
feeling like it's not aimed at them like it once was,
or who knows what, but they are punk articulates some
of their own frustrations with the product. Uh them, fans,
I think, get their hopes of going finally somebody speaking out.
But and I feel like I was here on you know,
we were here on like that week to go wait
a second, everybody calmed down. Nothing there that was said
wasn't calculated. Nothing there that was said violently went after
any sacred cows. It was designed to look like it did,
but it didn't. It was a shoot. I mean, it
was a work designed to look like a shoot. And
Vincient Mann is not upset. John Lorenidis is not upset,
Triple Aahs and Stephanie McMahon are not upset. So let's
enjoy it in that context. But I think what happened
is a lot of people are upset because they wanted
to believe it was a shoot. And I think so
one of the dangers of going down that road and
getting people excited and thinking this is a hot angle
or it's a hot situation because it's not an angle
and something was said that wasn't supposed to be said,
and punks in trouble and want to see what's next.
The expectations get set way too high, and the fact
is is there's an inevitable letdown. I think they even
ran into that last last year with a nexus when
there was that tearing down the whole rock set thing
and they beat up Sena. There were people going that
was different, maybe something was real. I don't and there
just wasn't the follow up on it. So again, that's
where I think it's nice to hotshot and get people excited,
but if you don't have a follow up, or if
the follow up is incongruent with why people are excited
in the first place, there's no way to follow up
punk shooting. If you're trying to make it seem like
he really was shooting, you can follow that up with
a video package highlighting all the controversial things he said.
You know that that co ops it, that makes it
part of the show. So that's why I'm just kind
of anti holy crap moments in that in the shoot Realm,
because there's just no way to follow up on it
and keep the people who you're targeting with the shoot
comments happy because they're inevitably going to be let down
when it just gets co opted into the endo the storyline.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I remember having a discussion with creative when we
did that. It was right after it was the week
after Nexus tore up the set, and we were sitting
there talking about and pretty much laying everything out. And
I remember sitting there going, the second second you give
these guys contracts, so and I remember it was just
they fought and they thought, and Vince wanted it and
Brian wanted it, and I just remember thinking, that's it.
You take away for everything that this group is the
second you give them contracts, and they got contracts. And
I can't remember specifics of exactly what happened after.
Speaker 1: But.
Speaker 9: The whole character and story was stripped the second you
did and the second that you get people excited and go, wow,
what was that? And then you immediately go, don't worry,
it's part of the show. You take away from it
because WWE has learned not to do exactly what's expected.
And I think that the problem with WWE right now,
to kind of backtrack a little bit, and I've used
this analogy before, is they're a lot like a cell
phone company in the sense that they don't want to
target audience that they have. They don't care about making
you as a customer happy, they care about going, oh, well,
we've got fifteen through through eighteen, Well, why don't we
try to get eighteen through thirty four? And they did
that when they had the older audience, they said, we
want the kids, or we want the females, or you know,
we want the people who don't watch wrestling. So they
did all these things so they lose everyone else, and
then they start going back and going, oh, well, we
lost the eighteen to thirty four, so let's give eighteen
to thirty four something. But now that you've drawn in
all these kids, these kids are going, I don't, John Lerenitis,
what is that you know? So I think that they
need to just start concentrating and going on. With the
cell phone companies, you're locked in. You got a contract,
you want to leave, sure, pay us, you can leave.
But with WWE you have the option of changing the
channel anytime you want. And the second that they go,
hey Wade, John, you're watching, and we don't target to
you anymore. We target to the little Jimmy's out there. Well,
the little Jimmies that aren't watching. They're not watching, and
now I'm not watching because now you're not giving me
what I want anymore. So I'm gonna turn the channel
and maybe TNA is or maybe UFC is, or maybe
pond Stars is or whatever the case may be. But
they just need to start getting focused and saying, where
are we going, who do we want to target, and
let's build from there. And my opinion is they're at
a point where they're not going to steal the older
audience from UFC. Their money is going to UFC. They
need to say, let's start over. Let's build a whole
new crop of fans, these twelve year olds and younger
and up to you know, sixteen, and let's hook these
people and give them the stories that they want and
keep them here for the next ten to twenty years.
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Speaker 3: And I think too on a that's a macro approach
and not a micro approach. I would say stop, get
over your inferiority complex about being scripted. Get over it
your scripted entertainment, and anytime you start trying to convince
people that you're real, you lose your stride. You get
away from what makes pro wrestling what it needs to
be in order to succeed. Have a world that you
create from the opening credits to the closing credits, that
says credible as possible, that comes with creative flexibility and
the creative license of being scripted. Simulated fights, but don't
pretend something is more real in order to try to
spark a rating, because there's no way to follow up
on it, and then you're left with all the fake
stuff afterwards. You're not usc you're not even quote reality television.
Just be exciting, dramatic hero versus villain, simulated combat and
embrace it and don't stray from it, but have an
internal logic that makes sense. Build up heroes where there's
a reason not to like him. And when you have
a babyface hero like John Cena, embrace what's good about
him and promote it, and don't confuse your audience by
having somebody come out there and make those who like
John Cena feel like fools. And I think that's what
Sampunk has done. If we look at demographics, then we'll
skip July fourth, because that was an anomaly because of
the holiday. But two weeks ago, among among males twelve
to seventeen, the rating drop from a two point sixty
five rating to a one point eight three rating, the
twenty five percent drop from two weeks ago when Sam
Bunk gave us promo you go back even further back
on the three hour on June thirteenth, one month earlier,
it was a two point nine to nine rating. They
lost one third of their teenage male viewers in compared
to one month ago, and the majority of that drop,
the vast majority was from the Ciampunk promo show to
compared to the one that was this Monday. Adults went
down too because the rating was so bad, but it
wasn't as dramatic. Adults eighteen to thirty four, the rating
went from one point five too down to one point
three six. Among men eighteen to forty nine, it went
down from a two point zero six to a one
point nine to two. Those aren't big drops, and I
think that drop is attributable to the Home Run Derby
on ESPN. The drop that you can't attribute to the
Home Run Derby because it's too large and it's wwb's
target PG demo is boys twelve to seventeen, and that
is a big drop, and I think they confused them.
I think that some of them liked John Cena and
some of them were more susceptible to thinking what cmpunk
did was real. So I think the twelve to fifteen
year olds you made them feel bad like John Cena
is an idiot there dork for liking because you let
see them Punk go there. In the sixteen to nineteen
year olds, sixteen to seventeen year olds who don't like
John Cena, they thought what Punk said might be real,
and now they feel betrayed. Because they were presented with
something that looked like a shoot and it wasn't, and
so again I just think he gets dangerous. Embrace who
you are is pro wrestling. Promote the hell out of
the heels, and make sure they're bad people, and promote
the hell out of the heroes, and build them up
and protect them, and don't let you know your heels
start poking and prodding and pointing out their weak points.
And then just tell good stories about simulated combat and
tell a good story in the ring. That's what I
would do, And I'd even not worry so much about
the demographics because I don't think older people want to
see a bad story or fake shoots. I think older
people want to see a good wrestling story told. And
as a kid, I became a fan at age nine
for a product that my great grandmother loved and that
people my parents' age loved, And so I don't think
you need to necessarily cater to kids because I think
they'll rebel against that and go to USC. I think
just promote a good pro wrestling product, and I think
kids will naturally be attracted to it.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, I don't want you need you to
think that I'm telling you to go, you know, put
cartoon characters and stuff on there. I just think that
you need to you need to choose your audience, and
you need to focus on what stories to tell based
on that audience. And I think, you know, to the
point that I said, the younger demographic left because that
wasn't a story that appealed to them. And I think
that the older audience left because they said, all right,
it's not a shoot, so I'm not that interested in.
Speaker 3: It, or you know what, John, I'd even contrast that,
I'd say they're trying to fool me with another shoot.
And I know wrestling's fake. Quit trying to pretend it's real.
I know it's not real. Just let me enjoy the
story like I enjoy Game of Thrones or Breaking Bad
or CSI I know it's not real. Quit trying to
insult me by pretending you're going to be real. If
you're pro wrestling, you're not going to be real. And
if there's a real moment, it will have nothing to
do with the following week, because if there is a
real moment, that guy won't be on TV the next week,
and then we'll get back to telling stories. I don't
think thirty five year olds want real I think they
want to be entertained with a really well written show
with characters that they get absorbed in watching the fact
that it's not real means nothing to me when I
watch a great a great scripted drama, a drama or comedy.
Speaker 9: Absolutely because people at this point understand that it's not
real and that's the part that they like about it.
But they also don't want the realism in there. The
funny thing about WWE is, you know, they're they're a
little confused themselves because they want to sit here and
go we are entertainment, We are not wrestling. We are
like every other television show on TV. Compare us to CSI,
compare us to those shows. But then the second that
you want to say, you guys have writers or you
know things are scripted, or what happens that no, no, no, no, no,
you know, and then they back off from it. So
you got to pick one. Do you want to put
the facade out there that this is semi real you
never know what's going to happen, or do you want
to say we are SNL. SNL doesn't go out there
and go I didn't know that I was gonna tell
that joke, you know, I mean, pick one, pick one
or the other, and and and and go with it. Yeah,
I'll not just do an a MPM here way, so
Mike get loud.
Speaker 3: Oh okay, and and uh, you know, just from opening
credits to closing credits, just have an internal logic that's consistent.
You know, you can say whatever you want on the
dot com, you can say whatever you want when you're
being interviewed on ESPN or with some local newspaper. But
from the opening to closing credits, just tell me a
good story with characters I care about. Follow usas network motto,
where characters matter, you know, this is where the care
and and make me again, make the heroes admirable, make
the villains despicable, and then have them have an entertaining
simulated combat fight in the ring like a fight scene
in a movie, like a Bruce Willis movie or whatever.
You know, That's what I'm gonna All Right, we got
lot of people in hol John, Let's let's go ahead and
shift the phone calls. Can you stick around after the
bottom of the hour for some more phone calls? Sure? Okay, great,
So if anybody who last sticking around. We will try
to get We'll try to get to you. Let's uh,
let's see, uh eight one seven. You've been on hold
for about fifty minutes, so we definitely want to get
to your call. Please stay to name it where you're.
Speaker 10: From, Heyway Destruction, Texas. And I have a couple of
I have one question and a couple of comments. Sure,
one comment the last thing that WWE really free themselves
kind of when they drop the F and put the
ww for WWE because it was already WWE when it
was WWF. They didn't have to come out and say it.
And the second comment, well, the second question I have
is is the Devon and the kids and the Pope storyline?
Is that one going anywhere?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I mean it's going somewhere. I don't know where,
but obviously it's on the air because they're building up
the Devon Pope VIEWD and I don't know what the
next twistle turnal be, but it's going somewhere. Yeah.
Speaker 10: And then my my third kind of iman would be, actually,
it's the money in the bank scenario. What if Punk
wins and then John Cena goes off TV for a
while Because I even think now after watching well for
a while that he's even getting bored with his character
because he's going out there and he's doing the same
thing and it's just it's getting it's even getting boring
for me to watch it. So he goes away for
a while. Hunt takes the championship, but away from the
WDBE they don't create a new one, and then you
lose the brand split, which gives me nothing to look
for to on Friday. Then you bring kind of the
FCW on the TV in my market so I can
watch it, and then it would make more fun for
me because I get behind an independent wrestler that's in
developmental then I get to watch him in WWE.
Speaker 3: Okay, well, let me jump in Josh and hit a
few things here. First of all, all John Cena is
not going to go anywhere. He's headlining WrestleMania next year
against the Rock and up until next year's WrestleMania, they
are going to invest everything they have and making sure
that John Cena stays over for that match one way
or the other. Will there it be some twists in turns?
Might they improvise? Might they turn them? Might they who? Yes?
Who knows?
Speaker 9: What?
Speaker 3: Twist? And turns because you know, we've been talking about
Sam punk in that angle being the problem. But John
Cena was the centerpiece of an addition of Monday Night
Raw that through one of the lowest ratings of this century.
It wasn't a show that he wasn't on. It wasn't
a show where people didn't know he's gonna be on.
He was one of the centerpieces of that show. He
was on in the first segment, he was on in
the last segment. There's you know, ww East done a
bad job promoting the middle of the card. I you know,
there's no doubt about that. But a two point nine
rating falls mostly on the shoulders of the top guy.
So yeah, it is an issue, and I think WWE
needs to needs to be concerned about that. They're not
They're They're not going to set him away and the
brand split so that you can watch indie wrestling or
developmental wrestling. That's just that's not feasible. That's not part
of their business plan. The fact that you would like that.
My question as a follow up when people say that
is if I gave you a million dollars right now
and said FDW has to be successful or I'm taking
the million dollars away, would you actually put FCW on
the air, And if not, then don't ask enso Man
to do it, because he's not catering to you, he's
catering to profitability. And right now, SmackDown is still one
of the top shows on cable even with the rating
half of Rad's well not anymore. But you know, a
one point seven to one point eight rating is still
number one on sci Fi. It's it's a rating where
I think they can take some chances with the format,
but it's not one where they're going to dump the show.
Speaker 9: You wait, I add something absolutely jump number one the
using a cmpunk quote. The empty suits don't think that
John Cena is the reason why they're pulling a two
point nine. They think that it's everybody else besides John
Cena that is causing them to pull a two point nine.
So that's problem number one. Problem number two is I
guess it's not a problem, but it's just a comment
regarding FCW. In technical terms, yes, it's an independent wrestling company,
but that is FCW is not an independent promotion. FCW
is a developmental system. What they put on their television
is not good. If you ask me, and I'm sure
people would would feel differently. But we used to get
all their DVDs and I used to watch them because
I had guys up there that I wanted to bring up.
And the programming is I mean, it's developmental. Let's get
guys comfortable on a TV et cetera. But you would
not want to promote that product on a national level.
Speaker 3: Right, It isn't designed. Yeah, it's not designed to be
on a national level. And the fact is, do you
really want to expose like, let's say you're I don't
just use another analogy. If you're a TV show, do
you really want to expose John Ham before he stars
in Mad Men? Do you really want to put him
on shows before he's good at acting and promote the
show and go, hey, watch the show. Here's an actor
who's not good yet, but hopefully someday he will be
and then he'll be the star of a show. No, no,
FCW is there with a limited audience in Florida, so
that it doesn't the national audience doesn't see people before
they're ready for the big show, for the limelight. And
you know, could they make it development on the internet? Sure,
because I think Ultimately, the Internet is always going to
be a limited audience. It's everybody on the internet, almost
everybody is. I mean there's eighty year olds who know
how to you, you know, who know what the Google
is now. But are they visiting the PW Torch app
every single day and devowering all the articles? Well no,
I mean there's a lot of people on the Internet,
but not everybody actually is fanatical enough to follow every
detail or take an hour of their day out to
go watch an FCW show. So you could get away
with putting it on the Internet, but that audience isn't
there for it to be a big national show if
you're just joining us. This is the PW Torch Love
Cast on Friday July fifteenth, twenty eleven. I'm Wade Keller,
editor and publisher with the Progressing Torch newsletter and PW
tor dot com. Joined today by John Piermarini, former writer
for two years with WWE in two thousand and nine
and twenty ten. He's become a weekly fixture on the
show for the time being and it's been great having
him on. I want to remind people Sunday night, following
money in the bank, there will be a special edition
of the PW Torch Live Cast. James Caldwell and Greg
Parks will be hosting live Sunday night following Money in
the Bank, taking your phone calls about the just completed show,
so be sure to tune in for that on a
Sunday night. I believe they're starting a half hour after
the conclusion of the pay per view, so definitely tune
in then, and we welcome your calls. We are taking
your phone calls right now about Money in the Bank TNA,
Rock SNA. We have talked about too much about rock
scenea yet, but seam punkin Sina also.
Speaker 1: Admit it. You love Nick Barbatty when he co hosts
with me on the Wadekeller Post shows. Well now you
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Speaker 3: Let's go back to the phone lines and go to
another person who's been on hold almost an hour, eight
five zero. Thanks so much for holding. Please state your
name and where you're from.
Speaker 12: This is Charles from Florida.
Speaker 3: Hey, Charles from Florida. What's on your mind?
Speaker 12: I've got four questions, one of which would be really
good for John, and none of them are pertaining to
the pay per views bekin because I really don't. I
think the storyline are overshut of the match. But my
first question is is there any more status of Bate
on Daphney's lost through with PNA about the workmen's compting.
Speaker 3: Go ahead and get me all four questions and I'll
write them down and then we'll.
Speaker 12: Tackle them okay, that's one. Two, I know fit Smley,
we used to be the road agent for the girls.
Who does that now?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 12: And the last I guess you guys, And the last
two were just you guys kind of touched on. One
is why doesn't since a lot of these guys are
still green when they come up from SCW, why doesn't
the he developed more tightest indy fit? And finally for John,
given all the backstories we've heard about the good ole
Basin like the mid seventies to today, of what happened
used to happen to the wrestlers backstage and off screen
and such, how can the bodies really try to pitch
that as a drama.
Speaker 3: Hit? Yeah, let me let me Charles, let me clarify
question pitch what is a drama?
Speaker 12: Well, like the we get like on all these shoot videos,
we get stories about what used to happen, like the
ron Erics, the Mid South days. How come Melans really
actually trying to write that up and try and pitch that,
you know, like a TV series or.
Speaker 7: Even you know, like a mini movie.
Speaker 12: Because we've seen enough document document documentaries and even some
things like The Wrestler to know there would be at
least some sort of I don't think it's for it.
Speaker 3: So basically, do a TV show sort of like Friday
Night Lights about high school football team, but make a
fully scripted, full of actors weekly drama that would be
about a pro wrestling circuit in you know whatever era.
Is that kind of what you're getting at. Yeah, okay, yeah,
and like that. It sounds good. And let me clarify
your SCW question. You want to know why WWE doesn't
develop these guys better before they go on the main roster.
Was that your question?
Speaker 12: Well, it just seems like they're they're really green when
they come up.
Speaker 2: And they like they need more seasons.
Speaker 12: Aside from just that one you know hour or so
they get with that CW. Like maybe they need to
be in front of a different audience for a while
like they used to do in the old days, where
they would go two or three different characteris before they.
Speaker 2: Would go up to the next nineteen.
Speaker 3: Okay, thanks TROS. Just to remind people, we're down to
ninety seconds live. If you're listening to us live, we're
going to continue on with a free extended version that
you can listen to. And by the way, you can
listen to it if you call the number right now
six four, six seven eight. You don't have to participate,
but you can eaves drop in if you call in
right away, even though we'll be going off on the
stream on the live stream right away. Otherwise, you can
download the archive. In the next half hour, it should
be on blog Talk Radio and you should be able
to listen to the archive or to be on our
iTunes speed. I'll go second, John, and I will also
be staying after and doing some VIP exclusive content after
we get through a couple more calls here. If you're
on hold, stay on hold, even though we're about to
wrap up. The live portion of the program will be
going off mid sentence any second. Now. I don't have
the latest on the Daphne laws to Charles, but it's
a good reminder and I'll check into it. Finley, John,
when you were at wwe did anyone in particular, as
far as a producer or an agent or a writer
work with the women more than others.
Speaker 9: Well, I mean Skin listen pretty much as all of
their matches and works with them. I think that I'm
trying to remember if he were to ever have somebody
with them on a matchup. I think it was Jamie Nobles,
so I'm assuming that Jamie Noble is probably taken over
that role unless they brought somebody in, but none of
the like Arn Anderson, I can't think of. I can't
think of the agist right now. I'm assuming it's Jamie
Noble though.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep, that makes sense. SCW and seasoning, I mean,
they don't want to bring green guys up. I know,
Mason Ryan, a lot of people are kind of, you know,
wondering if that was exactly the right move and the
right timing to bring him up. You know what, It's
tough John to know when the right time is to
bring somebody up. If you need a roster spots filled,
you do it. I think NXT is, you know, supposed
to be a means to give some seasoning to guys superstars.
Is that is another outlet that's above SCW where they
think they're ready to be seen by hundreds of thousands
of people nationally, but they're not necessarily ready to be,
you know, a main fixture on the main show. But
the part of it, too, Charles, is they don't have
territories to go to, you know, I mean WWE doesn't
have a relationship with any other territory where they can
set a wrestler for three years to learn how to
draw money and cut promos and figure out who they
are as a person and as a character. So, you know,
we're kind of stuck with the system we got. Now,
john do you think there's anything they could do to
improve that?
Speaker 9: I think the problem is there'll be a time where,
you know, there, like you said, there needs to be
a foster spot filled, and Vince goes to Johnny, who's
who were going to have come up? He's just got
kind of got to pick with what they got down there. Unfortunately,
you know, they're bringing in guys with initially with no experience,
and there's guys that stay down there for a year. Well,
I mean, that's what you're gonna get there they're no longer,
you know. I think the miss perception too. Like the
guy had said earlier, you know, FCW's a independent, why
not just put them on TV? You know, Wade, you
more about this than me because I was just you know,
a young fan, you know, reading Pro wrestling illustrated. But
the indies were a place where guys were developed and
then you know, with WWE or WWF or WCW wanted
to take somebody from there, they were ready to go
on TV. That's not the case with FCW. So you
don't have those guys. You have to go and grab
the Daniel Bryan's and the low Keys and stuff like
that to be able to fill that void of people
that can actually work. And FCW is more. So Let's
take you know, John who's never done anything, but he's
got the look, and let's put him in FCW. And
when we need that type of person up here, we're
gonna bring him up here. You know. NXT I think
was sort of supposed to be that proving group and
to an extent, ECW, but you know how wokex T
is now.
Speaker 12: But I don't know.
Speaker 9: I think Superstars could be a good avenue to kind
of bring guys up and just kind of, you know,
get that experience with the limited audience, but at least
you can feel what it's like with the WWE crowd.
You can work some of these bigger name guys with
more experience. I think too that if they were smart,
you know, like you said, they don't have a relationship
with other independence. But take a guy who you're getting
ready to bring up like a Wave Bearritt or whoever
it may be, and send them around the country, you know,
or or send them down to Mexico or somewhere else
and just have them work and see what it's like
and then have that sort of life and ring experience
and then bring them up and bring them in. I mean,
you got guys with no experience who have been trained
for a year and then you go, Okay, here it is.
And you expect these guys to respect the world of
wrestling and the history and the tradition and they don't.
But you can't blame them.
Speaker 3: And over the years too, and they still do this.
We'll have guys who aren't quite ready for TV. They'll
put them on house shows and let them work opening matches.
I think Kurd Angle worked on Man just for a
while at house shows to get ready. There are other
wrestlers who, you know, they get them ready and they
put them on house shows, but they don't introduce them
on TV. And that's a chance to get real in
ring experience. That helps. I've been in this corporate world too.
It's a different world. Sending way Bear to Mexico would
be an amazing experience for him, you know, I mean,
you know it would be he'd come back with different things.
But I think WWE from a liability standpoint, can you
really take somebody under contract and send them into a
wrestling ring and an environment where you don't know what
the health standards are about cleaning the mat, you don't
know about you know, commissions, you don't know about what
happens if somebody's injured. Do they have medical staff on
hand right all of a sudden. I mean you you know,
there's just corporate liability issues that didn't exist in the
seventies and eighties to think about too. And you know,
Vincent Mann, I think was soured on the WW experience.
The back issue of the pros and Torch and New
Futter I just put up from ten years ago for
VIP members yesterday, and it's just fresh in my mind
because I was looking at it. It's all about the
buff Bagwell book or team match that stunk the ring
out on Rob and then vinsick Mann pull the plug
on WW is a separate entity. All the WW guys
were looked at as inferior workers with bad habits, a
sense of entitlement. They didn't work full time house show schedules,
but they were used to full time pay and in
the ring, they just they worked a different style. WWE
has WWE style, and so I think it's and you
know what, one thing out of fairness too. There's always
been green guys who got pushes, you know. I mean
you go back to the seventies and look at tapes.
There's green wrestlers getting pushes for various reasons that have
the look they were the friend of the promoter, whatever
it is. Wrestling has always had a mix of good
workers and green guys, some of whom got better and
some of them didn't. Yeah, yeah, well, let's let's go
ahead and try to get a couple more calls in
here and go to go next to Eric Oda five
five nine. You've been a hold a long time. Thanks holding.
Please fix your name and where you're from.
Speaker 12: Hey, guys, keep from California.
Speaker 3: I see, thanks for holding so long. What's in your mind?
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, no, Hey, just question about Tina and Rock.
Speaker 2: Let's say we gets to you know.
Speaker 12: December, and you know Sema could really injured a really
bad one.
Speaker 7: It's gonna knock him out for a long time. Do
they try to plug some of the in or do
they just squash the match?
Speaker 3: Yeah, John would Rock wrestle somebody besides Concina Asena got injured.
I doubt it.
Speaker 9: Uh, you know I was gonna say yes only because
I think that to be perfectly honest. We've had some
scares with Sina. I think even leading up to WrestleMania
twenty gosh, I can't remember which one was Atlanta, No,
not Atlanta, Arizona twenty six, WrestleMania twenty six. I think
if I'm not mistaken around or right before Royal Rumble,
we had a scare with uh with Sina. We also
had a scare with Undertaker, but we looked for backup options.
And I know we talked about this before, but if
Rock is sitting here going I'll work WrestleMania and I'll
work at against Sena and he says I'm only coming back.
If it's Sena, well you're screwed. If he's willing to
come back and say, all right, well you know what
bring Punk back or All Work is or whoever it
may be, then yeah, we want WW wants to have
Rock at WrestleMania in the main event. If something were
to happen to Sena and Rock is willing to wrestle
somebody else, they'll do it. If he's not, they'll find
something else for him to. But you know, you put
yourself in a hard position if Rock says, listen, I
came back for Sena and nobody else because Rock's not
necessarily for people like us, he'll take the brunt of it,
but for for everyone else, they're gonna go, wwe promoted
the Rock and you didn't even give us that. You know,
I get it, No Sena, but now no Rock. I
think they they have to use him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I know. You know, Rock versus Miss Rock
versus Punk Rock versus Triple H, Rock versus Undertaker, rock
versus Randy Orton never had and that's not going to happen,
by the way, after some of these tours for them
in exchange. But yeah, I mean it's you know, ideally
there would be a backup plan that would work and
Rock would be able to do it. But I almost
think that they'd just they deliver, you know, Triple H Undertaker,
they deliver. Uh, they'd bring Jericho or Batista back or something,
and they'd make the best out of it and then
they'd wait for seeing it to be healthy and and
and do that too. I think that'd be, you know,
another option, but they don't even want to think about it. Uh, Steve,
anything else for us?
Speaker 2: What about?
Speaker 10: You know?
Speaker 12: Was bringing back as he says that he can wrestle
some more.
Speaker 3: If you really wanted to, Yeah, Austin Rock wanted to.
Yeah if Rock, If Austin wanted to work Rock, I
bet Rock would work with Austin. Again, they're cordial, boring,
fair enough. H One question that Charles asked that we
forgot about backstage stories as a drama, sort of a
Friday night Lights type drama or heck, you know Glee,
you know it's what's what's a high school you know,
high school singing club or whatever? Could you do a
drama that was just based around wrestlers on the road
in the old territory days?
Speaker 9: Yeah, I mean, if there was a network or production
company that wanted to invest in a wrestling show. But
I don't know if people do. I just don't fit.
The people that are in charge of making these decisions
know about these stories of what it's like to be
a wrestler in the seventies or eighties or even now.
When we started the ww Network, or not started it,
but started pitching stuff for it, Eventually we were told, well,
we don't want to spend money, so don't pitch any
ideas that cost money. But I thought that it would
be interesting to do a series on Vince McMahon as
he's getting ready to start a wrestling company and then
kind of go into him starting it and you can
kind of tell that story. But I think it'd be interesting.
I just don't know if the people that make the
decisions or the people that write the stories are familiar
with all that stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you'd have to bring you know, Terry and Dorry
funk In and and Larry the Axe Henning and you
know some of the you know Territory or Jim Brounzell
or Jesse Ventur, you know whatever. I mean, there are
out there people who were traveled in the seventies and eighties.
They didn't need they'd need three, four or five good
consultants to help any modern day writer capture the flavor
of that moment. But you know, a period piece, I mean,
Bad Men is a phenomenal period piece. Is it justified?
Is that the other show on Uh? I don't know
that one's really good. But you know, there's period pieces
out there that could be done. I mean it's more
expensive to period pieces. But the good news is there's
still a lot of old dilapidated arenas around that are
in you know, some of the smaller markets or attached
to newer buildings, so you'd at least have the sets
that were built, and you could, you know, just film backstage.
You'd have already made set and and then you know,
film some matches with an old wrestling ring that you
could probably find on an indie scene, so you wouldn't
have to recreate the sets. They still exist. They're just
you know, old dilapidated buildings that are out there. All right,
we got another caller who's been on hold almost an hour,
so let's go to the last caller who's been on
hold for a marathon. Although someone else has been on
over forty minutes, so we'll get to you also, Erico
nine to one four, thanks for holding so long. Please
stay your name and where you're from. Nine one four,
nine one four. I'm giving you plenty of opportunity because
they held for fifty five minutes. Nine one four. All right,
nine one four hellope, all right, I'll put you on
hold and I'll try I'll try you back because you
held for so long.
Speaker 1: Before pushing play on the Waight Keller Pro Wrestling post shows.
Check out pw torch dot com and our TV review
section and skim through a full rundown of the TV
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get an overview of what happened before you dive into
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That's pw torch dot com. You're home for live TV
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Speaker 3: Let's go to Erico two two then on Old forty minutes,
please stay to name it where you're from.
Speaker 7: Hey, what's going on? Anthony?
Speaker 3: So Washington, DC, Ashton?
Speaker 7: He said, no, Anthony.
Speaker 3: Oh, Anthony, okay, cool? What's on your mind?
Speaker 7: Anthony? What's going on? I was listening to the early
part of your discussion talking about how they you know,
trying to get their identity together if they want to
be gg thirteen or where there are type of organs
like you're talking about the Devin. Now, Yeah, I think
Vinson managed trying to do and and John you might
can correct me on the I think what Vince McMahon
is trying to do is trying to create another hawk
Ovid you of me if it kills him, he's going
to try to create another Hullo because I think he's
wanted hull cool and still got friction between them, so
and he just want to prove, you know that he's
the one that you know made this great, you know
things that we see today as resting as it is today,
and not hul Kog. And I think it was like
a like in between, like you know, beat between the
two and U and John Seeney is going to be
his proof that you know, he can create himOther Hope.
You what did you think about that?
Speaker 3: I think that's pretty astute. I'll throw to John on
that in one second, but you know, I think that
Hope for two reasons. Yeah, Vince wanted to prove that
it was him, not hul Cogan. That's I think why
a Lex Express tour and got started and Lex Luker
got pushed, and I think since has tried to create
different Hulk Cogans over the years. But it's also good business.
You want another Hulk Hogan because Hulk Cogan drew money
for him and he's in physic Man's promoting comfort zone.
So that would be my That'd be my initiaction to that, John,
how about you?
Speaker 9: Yeah, I was gonna repeat that is that. I think
he's been trying to make Hulkovi and again since Hole
Cogan was even there. I think with Ultimate Warrior he started,
and then like you said, with Lex and and everyone
in between. But you know, and I think that that's
why he's so big on promoting you know, Stone Cold.
Speaker 3: Steve Austin is the greatest superstar of all time.
Speaker 7: The rock is the greatest.
Speaker 9: I think he. I think he already proved he can
do it without Hogan when he had rock In Austin.
Regardless of you Know Who. Again, you could go, well,
who made who? Vincent Man made the Ring Master stone
Cold or Steve Austin made Stone Cold. You could work
it both ways. I just don't know if there's going
to be another Whole Cogan. Stone Cold is one thing,
but I just Hoole Cogan is just once in a lifetime.
I think. I think Hogan hit and it was the
timing is right, and I don't think you'll see another one.
I mean, look, they're trying so hard. I mean, John
Cena is essentially Whole Cogan. I mean I don't really
see much of a difference.
Speaker 3: But.
Speaker 9: It's just he's He's not whole Cogan. And the thing
about Whole Cogan, too, is that Whole Cogan sort of
fit to the demographic of the kids that were watching
at the time, me being one of them. It was
about heroes, you know, g I, Joe, about you know, America,
and about you know, standing up for what's right, and
John Cena is still doing that and that's not what
kids are looking for these days. What kind of Orton
was supposed to be was the anti that, but they
didn't really they didn't really do what was needed with
Orton to accomplish that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think every era has its own style
of hero you know, every era has its own style
of tak show host, Every era has its own type
of rock music. And I think every pro wrestling era
has hero and the two have to meet at at
the right time. You know, you have to have the
right type of person who walks in a room and
fills the room with their charisma, you know, and and
and and is it just has that it factor where
they walk in any room and they just have it. Obviously,
the Rock Triple hs to an extent, John Cena, Steve Austin,
Hulk Hogan. I mean they walk into a room, you know,
something different is there's somebody there with a presence. You
need to have that. But you also then have to
have them fit in with a product and have wrestling
talent and be able to talk on the microphone and
all that too. In it it Uh, it's a challenge.
It's a challenge to find that person at the right time.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 9: I think the one thing too that that kind of
has Hogan and Austin and Rock and everyone else before
him sort of stand out as opposed to Sina is
that those guys were not only characters, but they were
larger than life. And I don't say I mean I
think that Ray Mysterio is a better example of that
than John Cena is you know, John Cena yeah, you
look at the guy and you go, uh, nobody's that big.
But that doesn't necessarily make you larger than life. That
makes you unique. And it's and and I think when
you look at John Cena, and even if you're in
a room with John Cena, nothing screams out this guy
is just a character. He's larger than life, this is something,
this is that he's not real. And I think that
with Hogan, you you had that audience of people like
me who when I first started went wait is this real?
But you knew that whole Cogan was just this, this
comic book character, this superhero. And and Sena doesn't doesn't
possess that. And it's it's not even necessarily his fault
because he's made to be the common guy. And I
think that Vince saw that with Austin and said, well,
that's what we gotta do. It've got to relate. But
stonecold set himself up art because he did things that
you wanted to do, way that I wanted to do,
that I would never in a million years attempt to do.
And that's what made him mark what John Cena, Okay,
I can do exactly what John Cena does. I just
can't look like him.
Speaker 3: Yep, yep. Well let's let's let's go ahead and that'll
be the end of our phone call. Portion we'll go
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Act now, it won't be there long, all right, John,
we'll wrap up the free portion there, come back and
hit on a few such So I want to talk
about this war words with the rock in John Cena
as part of the VIP after show here and get
your thoughts on what you know, what kind of heat
might be really going on and what from working with
John Cena especially what you think is really at work
in these exchange So that we'll wrap up the free
portion and we'll be back for VIP members in about
ten seconds for the VIP after show.
Speaker 2: Thank you for using blog talk radios. Goodbye.
Speaker 3: All right, John, have you had a chance to watch
or read about the Rock eleven minute internet video he
posted I think on Monday or I guess it was
probably tuesdayor Wednesday in response to John Cena's promos that
he cut on him in Front of the Life.
Speaker 12: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I checked out.
Speaker 9: I think I read the transcript of the Rock and
then what John Cena had said previously.
Speaker 3: So what's going on here? What's your take? I mean,
you know, we talk about seampunk in a semi shoot problem.
I think the real shoot of the month is John
Cena trying to get under Rock skin and Rock reacting
pretty heavy hand, pretty heavy heavy handedly and defensively in response,
and they're kind of tearing each other down. I think
in their own mind they say it's worth it because
we're promoting a fight. But I don't know, I think
there might be more negative than positive in terms of
how they're how they're coming across as secure celebrities.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I almost wonder if this is just sort of
Vince putting it in the hands of these two guys
to say, you know, do what you want to do
with it. I trust both to you, and then this
is them trying to just kind of make it as
real as possible and get people to talk. I don't
I don't know though. I mean, again, this is all
something that you can speculate on, but I don't know
what the truth actually is. I'm going to assume it's
a work. I'm gonna assume that Vince said it's all yours, guys,
do what you're gonna do with it, and you know,
I trust you, And I think that this is them
just trying to quote unquote do the cool thing to
get people to talk and get people to believe this.
I don't necessarily think that this is them trying to
really sort of dig at each other. And you know,
you got to think, in John Cena's terms, he's got
to respect the fact that Rock is willing to come
back and work with him.
Speaker 3: I think I think this is a couple talking about
I think John Cena has Rock where he wants him.
John Cena wants to get himself over as able to
stand on the same stage as a Rock and hold
his own verbally and that that's a huge victory. That's
an elevation of his stature. Just to be in the
same discussion with the Rock is a big deal because
three years ago, when Sina started trash talking Rock and
Rock wasn't in on it, I thought, you know, yeah,
dream on John, like Rock's ever gonna walk away from
movies and hey, come out of schedule to fight you
nice try. You know. That's like me challenging President Obama
or John Bayner to a political debate. They're not going
to take time out to do it with me. I
mean what seriously, they I'm not That's I'm not in
their realm and that's not gonna happen. Okay, So that's
what I looked at John Cena. It's like, yeah, you're
smart to aim upward, you know, don't aim down, aim
up and try to put yourself on his status, on
his on his level, but you're not. And it just
was a joke. Then here I am three years later,
you know, when I got egg in my face. Yeah,
Rock's coming back to fight scenea circumstances change. Rock wants
to get back in the action movie genre. He wants
to reconnect with WWE fans to help his movie career.
So fine, okay, but Sena's got Rock where he wants
and where Scena now can say anything he wants, and Rock,
I think, is so supremely confident that he can hold
his own verbally with anybody. He thinks he can dress
down anybody and take He's bulletproof. So scene is going
all out, and I think I truly think that scene
is getting under rock skin. Rock is I won't say
notoriously thin skinned, but no one to be very image
conscious and maybe a little defensive. And I think whatever
agreements they had, Seena's gone a little further than is
is comfortable with. So Rock shoots back and shows in
his shoot promos that they agreed they would have to
keep this alive. He's getting entering territory that he thinks
will hurt Sina. I think Sena's laughing it off because,
like you said, John, He's going I can't believe Rock's
talking about me. And I kind of enjoyed the fact
that I think I'm getting under Dwayne Johnson's skin because
that guy's a little full of himself. That guy's a
little too, you know, perfect and kind of a hot shot.
And that I mean a few years ago when Rock
showed up to induct his dad into Hall of Fame,
I heard stories from behind the scenes that you know,
Rock carried himself like he was now Hollywood and not
one of the boys, and there was heat on him
for how long he was there, and there was you know,
some people questioning whether he should have been at the
Hall of Fame this year, just you know, you're back
in WWE or part of WrestleMania, show up and take
part in that aspect of things, sit in the audience.
And he didn't do that. And so I think there's
a little bit of Sina representing Randy Orton and the
rest of the boys, so to speak, who are currently
in wrestling. I think Seena's representing them by taking it
to the Rock, and I think Rock is looking kind
of defensive and slightly rattled in trying to keep up
with Sena. And I think Rock is more right than Sena,
but I think Rock looks worse by the fact that
he feels the need to fire back at Sina in
such a defensive way. So I know that's kind of
my take. I think if they got together, they'd smile.
But I think deep down there's some there's some feelings
that I've been hurt and there's going to be some
resentment there. But they're going to be professionals and go
through with this. So I think you're right Vince said,
go do it. I think they're going and doing it.
And I think Sina's getting under rock skin. Rock's not
th rolled with some of the things Sena's saying, and
Sina doesn't care what Rock says because he's like, my god,
Rock's talking about me.
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Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that that Rock probably feels that Sina
might be taking a little bit too much advantage of
the situation. I think that, you know, I think that
Rock probably feels and this is the first I've heard
of him being thin skin, but if that's the case,
then you know, you could kind of feel a little
attacked by going I came back, you know, I told
the ww Universe. I was here, and now you're going
and trying to tell everybody that I'm thinking I'm phony
and that I'm not back. But I also feel like
Rock is treating this like it's a movie gig. You know, Okay,
sure I could go to the premiere party or I cannot.
I mean, I don't need to say, you know, with
the WrestleMania Hall of Fame, you paid me to come
to guest hosts at WrestleMania, and you're paying me to
come wrestle at next year's WrestleMania. I don't need to
be there for raw. If we agreed on you know,
six seven, eight dates leading up to WrestleMania, great, I'll
be there for it. I'm not obligated to be there
for the rest. And you know what, But that's also
the difference with the new sort of feel of the
wrestling industry, where it's not about you know, this is
your life and you've got to treat it with respect,
and you've got to respect everybody.
Speaker 3: You've got to.
Speaker 9: Respect the business. Those people aren't are few and far
between now and now people look at this and go,
this is my job. I show up to my job.
I do what I gotta do I go home, and
it's not. I am a wrestler and my life is
based around protecting and making sure that this business is
seen in you know, whatever light we want to show it.
I do what I do. I make movies. I probably
went back to WWE so that I can connect with
that audience again and get and bring back that popularity
that I had when I did Scorpion King. And I
think that he thinks that seen us taking advantage of
the fact that that's just kind of how Rock is
viewing it without coming out and saying, look, Rock is
doing this to get popular again, or Rock is doing
this to connect with you guys again. He can't say that,
but he can find other ways to say it. And
I think that's that's coming back at Rock. And I
think that Seena probably smiles and looks and goes, Okay,
you said we could go at each other. I'm going
at you and it's bugging you. And I think he
probably just smiles about it. But I think that's probably
where Randy Orton's comments come from, you know.
Speaker 3: And Raddy Orton and Reddy Orton in an interview with
KUPD in Phoenix, a couple of weeks back talked about Rock,
and he said that when that the Rock tried to
get him in trouble before WrestleMania earlier this year, Orton
said that he gave his opinion on Rock during immediate interview.
He said he wasn't buying Rock's return speech about coming
back and never leaving again. Orton said that he heard
he quote got in trouble with NSAC Man through John Laurenidis,
who pulled him aside and told him about it. And
Orton said that Rock called the opfice and claimed that
Orton buried him and Triple H in the interview, and
Orton thinks Rock threw Hunter's name into the mix to
get management to pay attention even though he actually didn't
Despairge Hunter in the interview. That's just one of you know,
a number of ancots I've heard over the years about
Rock being quote image conscious, which I think is a
euphemism for kind of thin skinned, and you know, worried
about his image of that kind of thing, and for
good reason. I mean, he's you know, give the world
that he's in and the things he's experienced. So Orton,
you know, really has gone after after Rock, and you
know he Orton said, uh that I'm met better than
Sena in the ring, but on the mic he's light
years ahead of all of us, including the Rock. So
Orton's been a big for Postina and I I do,
I mean, I really sense that there's an us against
them that's seen us playing into on the microphone to
rally the current locker room. And I think Seena's a
vessel for McMahon to an extent. Rock left the family.
He left to go to movies and there were contentious
moments and and you know, Vince's a businessman. He wants
to bring Rock back, but that doesn't mean there's not
resentment over the fact that Rock didn't make himself more
available all the time. So yeah, so Sina, you know,
I kind of see this is Sena's Sena is venting
for McMahon. Casina wants to keep mcmahappy. I think McMahon
Sena want the locker room to unite around some force,
and that force is Rock who left us and uh
and says he's never leaving, but he really left and
he's not here. So I think there it's fair. I
love talking about because there so many things that work
in this and knowing, you know, knowing the people like
you do, and uh, you know, knowing them as I
do in my ways of knowing them.
Speaker 7: Uh.
Speaker 3: It is. Uh, it's a fascinating thing to watch play out.
I'm looking forward to the next eight months.
Speaker 9: Yep, agreed.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. So Rock hin said that he's gonna be
at Survivor Series in that interview. What comes to mind
if you're sitting at a booking meeting, John and you know,
a writer's meeting, and they say, yeah, let's come up
with something for Rock and Sina to do at Survivor Series.
We want to sell the pay per view, but we
can't give away the match, and we want that paper
to make people more excited about WrestleMania. Did you just
rerun WrestleMania hype and what happened at Mania? Or you know,
put you on the spot here, But anything brainstorm Whites
come to mind that you would do at that show.
Speaker 9: Uh, okay, I would need what I would usually do
is you know, let's say Brian or Vince or whoever
it may be, says, look, we need ideas for for
Rock Sena at Survivor Series. To me, that's something it's
so big that I off the top of my head,
it'd be hard for him to give you anything worth
I guess pitching. You know, if we're sitting in a
booking meeting me and you right now, it's something I
want to really think about. But you know the other
thing I would immediately throw out is if we got
Rock and again, I know it's not as easy as
you know, with his schedule or whatever, to say, well,
why don't you come this day? It's instead of this day.
I think if you want to start building towards Russemania, fine,
let's get Survivor series, Let's think of something. But this
is the money in the bank. Is a perfect time
for Rock. You know, there is a chance and it
fits perfectly into the story. You're gonna tell me that
my chance to beat up this guy John Cena who
thinks he's maybe the greatest of all time when I am,
or whatever it is that they end up going with
as far as the beast, this is my time to
make sure that that doesn't go away, because if Sam
Bunk walks out WWE Champion, there's no John Cena versus
Rocket Wrestlem. But Rock make sure that you know WWE
is intact and John Cena is for employed, and the
WWE title stays with John Cena, and I think that
that's where we want to kind of bring that story
back up front, and then at Survivor Series we just
kind of figure out, you know, first, I'd like to
know what he's even happening in Survivor Series. To just
say Cina and and rock this without knowing where where
they see Sina, you know, on that card, was a
little hard for me, but that's what I would bitch.
I'd say, why not get him at Money in the
Bank and have him saved with WWE and in a sense,
you know too, do you want me to go one
step further? I personally think Sena's got to be heel
at WrestleMania, and I'm sure people disagree, and I'd like
to get your take on it, but I would have
rock safe Sina in a way that almost felt like
Fida maybe might have won that match without the rock.
And then Sina turns heel on the Rock. Maybe it's
the next night or maybe the next night he comes
out on Raw and he says, Hey, meet me at
Survivor Series or whatever the case may be. However you
promote that and you know you and you have Seena
turned heel on Rock at Survivor Series. Maybe it's the
contract signing, I hate that, but something along the lines
where you get those two guys in the ring at
the same time. You know, maybe you promote let's do
a press conference, let's do something. But Sena turns heel
and then you've got heal Sena going against babyface Rock
at at WrestleMania. And I'm curious what your thoughts on
if you were to turn Sena heel for WrestleManias.
Speaker 3: You know, it's to me the there's obvious upside. You
turn Scena heel and a lot of people are going
to feel like they've got full on permission to boo
this guy. And they've got babyfaces now that you can
get over just by virtue of John Cena wrestling them.
Because the audience, you know, the fans who don't like
Sena have had this tough choice. You know, do I
really want to pay to see Alberta Doria or miss
or you know what obnoxious heel? Do I really want
to pay to see him and cheer him against Sena?
Sometimes the heels just weren't appealing enough where you know,
they just kind of said, all right, well, you know
that's just not a match that's going to make a
difference for me either way. You turn see a heel
and you put him against babyfaces who appeal to the
fans who have been booing Seena all along, You no
doubt open up you open up a lot of options.
The problem is who are those baby faces? You know?
Do you bring Randy ortover from SmackDown? You know, Christian's
not going to be a top baby face. You've worked
against Sena a big show, doesn't probably not at this stage?
Do you turn miss baby face? Is that too soon?
And it doesn't feel too much like just flipping a
few that was familiar to us? Alex Riley isn't ready
for that. I mean, you know, it's like it's not
a great long list of babyface, is it? Ray mysterio?
Do you do that? I guess that's maybe. So that's
my problem is who are the faces to face Sina
if he turns heel? Because you need to have that,
you need to have a couple, you know, two three
main babyfaces.
Speaker 9: Well let me let me let me put it to
you like this way. And this is just from like
say a storytelling standpoint. Now, I could be completely off
on this, and maybe if I sat down and said, okay,
I got to get from uh, you know, uh August
to April in pay per view buys and all that stuff,
maybe when you when you break it down like that,
Sure it may be tough, but I feel, let's play
into the scenario that you're given. Well, want the creative buzz.
If we turned Sena heel, Okay, who are the baby faces? Well,
maybe you put the WWE in a position storyline standpoint
that goes, we don't have anybody but maybe these heels.
So you don't have to necessarily have these guys turn
and go, oh, save the WWE. You have these guys
embraced Sena. You know, you have the mid and Alberto
del Rio and whoever else may be there, embrace Sena
and go great, you've seen the light. You're you're evil. Well,
you know however you would portray him, and Sena just
goes through everyone. Well who's first up?
Speaker 7: Okay, well it's.
Speaker 9: Ready Masterial, he's the pop guy. He goes through him,
he goes through Riley, he goes through Morrison, and almost
like that Triple H from early two thousands. But in
this case, you're actually saying, yes, this is what he's doing.
He is dominating everybody. No one is able to stop
this fight. Is it WrestleMania?
Speaker 6: Yet?
Speaker 9: We need Ross? You eat Doring, Randy Orton over, and
you have him go through Randy Orton. Now you finally go,
oh my gosh, what are we going to do? Now
you're at WrestleMania. I even think at WrestleMania you could
have John Sena beat the Rock and you go, oh
my gosh, well what is going on here? And then
that's when you have a guy like Miz who, let's
say gets money in the bank here and he cashes
in that night at WrestleMania and you turn him babyface
where you're not doing the double switch. You're taking your
time with it. But that's when people are waiting and waiting.
And I'm not saying that ms has this presence that
people go, that's gonna be the guy that's gonna beat
John Cena. But I think that's the guy that people
would get behind. And I think that you have him
cash in, you have him beat John Cena for the
w WE title and and and you go with with
miss your top babyfase and hope by that time you've
built guys like Kofi or Riley or maybe you turn
swat or in that time being and and you build
these this new crop of babyfaces and and and go
that route.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but.
Speaker 9: I can't even remember the original subject that we were
talking about.
Speaker 3: Thinking it was Survivor Series and how we present Scena
Rock and that would be you know, that would be
an opportunity John to turn sena heel at Survivor Series.
You could have Rocks show up and and it could
be under the guise of what he talked about in
this promo, which in his internet promo shoot or otherwise.
And and where he's that I want to go back
to where I'll start it, you know, fifteen years ago,
through the day or you know whatever, to the weekend.
He made his debut at that building, and so you
play off of that. And it's supposed to be something
about the Rock. You know, it's a ceremony, it's an acknowledgement,
this family's gonna be there. He's going to accept you know,
some sort of a honorary award from you know, MSc
or something like that, and Sina spoils it and he
does so in a way that's healis and that's kind
of you know the moment again. You can brainstorm one
hundred ideas and come up with with you know, eighty
five of them better than that one off the top
of your head if you just sit down and kind
of come up with it. But there could be a
scenario where Rock is there under different pretense and Sena
injects himself and that's how the heel turn happens.
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Speaker 9: Right, I mean, I shoot, I used to always be
one to say, let's go as big as we possibly
can and scale down from there. Have the Mayor of
New York City legitimately give Lock the key to the
city and he's going to present it averties. I mean,
you could have go on here and then all of
a sudden here comes Sina and maybe Sena sits here
and he goes, this is all great, and I'm here
to give you something to the right where it started
and this that, and he just fall on, turns heel
and I'm not talking about to gives them an AA.
You got to have him do something brutal to this guy.
And there you go and you go, I'm sick of it.
I'm sick of rock, I'm sick of these people. And
I think that Sina, you know you if you were
trying to hate a girl, and that girl was just really,
really really into a complete douchebag, and you knew him
for who he was. You know, he's a douchepeg. You
know that he's going around and hooking up with other
girls while he's trying to hook up with this girl
that you like, and you're trying to convince her. And
every time you try to convince her and you go,
this guy is stupid or whatever, and she doesn't fall
for it. Well, one time that that girl finds out.
Now you're sitting there going and then the guy goes
to her face and says, yeah, I did it. You
hate that guy even more. And I think that that's
what Sina's heel turn needs to be. And I think
that when Sina turns heel, he needs to sit there
and he goes, all you people that brewed me, how
do I explain this in the in the way of
pitching it like this? I put a smile on my
face and I was the face of the WWE, and
I did everything that was asked of me for money.
I have more money than I could ever imagine right
now and I and I did it all because of you.
So I thank you. But you know what, every time
you bowed me when I came out, that ate at me,
But I kept a smile on my face because I
was collecting money for you by showing up that night.
But I think where you get these these older audience
are the people that are anti Sena to almost want
to protect these young kids now and go, you fooled them.
You never fooled me, but you fooled them, and now
I hate you even more. And then they go to
these little kids and I told you, I told you
that guy this and that, and now you got everybody
just attacking this guy going. You thought you were going
to get one over on me, and the little kids
think that you did you mean to tell me when
I bought that rich the band that when you came
and you know, signed it or gave me one or
threw the shirt, you were just throwing it at a
dollar sign. That's all I was to you. And I
think that that's where you go with Sina and and
kind of even look like you embraced Rock. You know,
you loved you hated Rock when he first got here,
you hated me, and for some reason, you just embraced
this guy like he is everything that you could ever want,
but you never embraced me. And all I did was
try and try and try. But you know what I'm
done trying. You want to hate me, go ahead, hate me.
I want you to hate me.
Speaker 3: Let me move on to one of the subjects before
I let you go, because I know we're runn along here,
and that is uh. You alluded to it last week
and I should have followed up on it, or you
mentioned last week at Cosky taking over for Michael Hayes
on SmackDown. What what's your take on that situation and
what do you know about the circumstances.
Speaker 9: I don't know what the situation with Michael is. I'm
wondering it could be one of two things. One they
just felt like I mean, I remember when I was there,
the creative process was looked down on as far as
SmackDown goes. So I wonder if it just got to
the point where Ben said someone news got to be
in here, or if they felt like Michael was better
suited in a different role and Ed was the next
guy in line. But you know, like I've stated to
you and I've stated on my website and all that stuff,
I think Ed is a great guy. I've got nothing
bad to say about Ed. I think he's a creative guy.
I think that he is someone who's been there for
ten years. And if you're looking for a spark in
creative or if you're looking for something different, you're not
going to get it by a guy who's been pitching
you ideas for ten years, because that guy is so
deep in your philosophy of what you want and what
he believes should be the product, that you're just going
to get exactly what Michael Hayes is going to give you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's the thing. I just think the structure
is such where, yeah, it is going to be what
it is. And I don't know that you know, this
isn't like, you know, some rebellious thinker from the outside
with the track record got handed the keys to the
number two show. This is somebody who's within the machinery
got handed a structure to fill out, and to fill
it out with a certain person's vision in mind. And
you know, I don't think they're really open to a
lot of major new ideas, you know.
Speaker 9: But that's the funny thing, because this wants different, he
wants new ideas. He wants someone to walk in there
and be different. The problem is, and regardless of if
people think my ideas are good or not, it doesn't matter.
My ideas were different than than than everybody else on
Creative And there's another guy there, and I don't want
to mention names or anything, but there's another guy there
that has different ideas, and our ideas were the second
thing we pitched him. Whether this guy pitched to Mike
or I pitched it to Brian, it was just you
just you push the train right off the tracks before
and go over with And unfortunately, unless you are put
in a position where you're sitting with Vince one on
one or as we're in a production meeting and you
want to stand up for yourself and you want to
pitch something, which we did at times and it got
over and Vince used it. But you have these people
who the Brian's, the ed, the Michaels, who have been
there for ten years, and that's what they want to
put on TV, and if it's not something that they
want to do, it's not going to filter through them
up to Vince. So Vince thinks, wow, I got this
team philosophy, and these guys are bland and they're not
doing anything, and they're so close to the product that
he doesn't get that there's people there that do have
different ideas, that want to try something different. And I
think that he sees that when people step up and
pitch step to him one on one or pitched up
to him in production meetings when there isn't Brian just
switching for himself. I think he sees that, But then
he only sees glinches. Oh, okay, that was you had
a good idea today, not knowing that you have a
good idea every week, but you're not. It's not getting
to then, And a lot of the time you can't
go straight to Vince or even in a production meeting,
you kind of keep your mouth shut sometimes because you go,
I know, I pitched this already. Know Brian said, no,
it's not happening, and he gave every excuse in the
book why Vince wouldn't like it. If I pitch this,
I'm making my life miserable. So do I care that
much that I'm going to pitch it to Vince and
maybe it gets on TV in order to make my
life miserable? No, so you don't say anything.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So so you're not. The short answer is
to summarize, uh, don't look for anything radically different on SmackDown.
Knowing Ed and knowing the system.
Speaker 9: Well, look, you you've watched ECW, you've watched NXT. That's
what you're getting with SmackDown Superstars. You're gonna see a
lot of these and I think you already are the
ECW and the NXT. Alum put In prom in his
positions because I think he has a connection and if
he's guys, those are his guys. And I think again,
I told you this before in our long torch talk.
You have to have someone backing you. I back Swagger,
I back to him, his ibag DEBIOSSI Drew guys like that,
and I'll be there and I'll fight for these guys.
Well Ed is going to fight for the guys that
he wants, and I think that you're seeing it's going
to be the ECWNXD guys.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So actually that is a good takeaway from that question,
and that's a good point to make. He you know, familiarity,
knowing the strengths and weaknesses, and then being his guys.
He's invested in them, and so maybe it will if
we're to expect any kind of a difference in the
next two to three to four months. It might be
certain people that that Michael as might not have thought
to push or paid attention to, or knowing how what
their strengths and weaknesses are, and really felt a personal
connection to want to see him succeed. We might see
that with that with some new guys.
Speaker 9: Yeah, if you want, yeah, if you want to talk
about change, I think that you'll see. You know, I
think Wade.
Speaker 3: Barrett, no matter what, would have been sort of a.
Speaker 9: Michael or a Ed guy. I think he would have
been a Brian guy too, because he's a Vince guy.
And I think that I think Michael. Here's the difference
that you'll see. I think Michael booked for Vince. I
think Ed books for what he likes, but he also
everyone books for Vince. But I think that Michael essentially
who wrote in the limos with Vince, who flew on
the private jet, knew just exactly what Vince wanted, and
he'd sit down, he goes, what's everybody's ideas, this, this, this,
and this, Well, Vince wants to do this, So this
is what we're doing. And that's just the way that
it was and then I think with Ed is I
think Ed will bring his own ideas to the table,
but I think that Vince will ultimately go yes, no, yes, no,
yes no, and Ed will go okay, yeah. You know,
at least we'll give the credit of Brillan. Where Brian
wanted something, Brian will fight Vince for it. It was
always the greatest things that he would fight for. But
at least Brian had the balls to fight for what
he wanted and to stand up for Vince and nobody
else really does that.
Speaker 3: Very good, John, appreciate the insight and all the analysis
last hour and fifteen minutes that you've been on with us,
and I look forward to talking to you after Money
in the Bank. It should be an interesting not just
a pay per view, but but the raw afterwards. I
think we're gonna learn a lot about what Vince thought
about the ratings the last two weeks, and we're gonna
get some final answers on Ceampunk's future and get a
sense of what they have planned for SummerSlam. Final comment
from you before I signed off, what is your main
event prediction for SummerSlam? The top one or two matches?
Speaker 9: Oh, I think you go if Punk is not there.
I think you go Scina del Ruyo. I think you
go orton either Seamus or Mark Henry. I'm gonna lean
on the Mark Henry side, and perhaps they might try
to get us celebrity involvement there. I know they've been
trying to do that, and if they did, I think
maybe a dmis versus the celebrity.
Speaker 3: Ah cool, excellent. Well we'll see how that turns out.
Thanks again, John, appreciate it all right, Laate, take care,
take care. Thanks everybody for joining us. From on behalf
of John Fermarini, this is Wade Keller thanking all the
VIP members for your support and signing off.
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